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Northern General Transport Percy Main Depot – Part One

The story of The Northern General Transport Company Ltd starts in 1913, but the history of some of its subsidiaries goes back even further. Two of them were Tynemouth and District Transport Co and Wakefields Motors Limited; this is a brief and by no means complete history of those two. It would take far too long to detail every type of vehicle ever used, and some Information about pre war vehicles, such as exact numbers, registrations and fleet numbers has in many cases proved impossible to obtain. I do not claim that the article is 100% accurate, and I apologise in advance for any errors, but please feel free to correct any inaccuracies. The Wakefields name ceased to be used in 1970, by which time they were both Companies were part of the National Bus Company, the Tynemouth name survived until 1975. Northern’s original livery was BET red and white, but around 1931 this changed to red and cream. Pre NBC, the colours remained the same, and the pre war layout altered very little, but post war the black wings and mudguards became red, the lineout was discontinued and the fleet names became smaller, the amount of cream also diminished as you got towards the mid 60’s, with many of the single deck, and a very small number of D/D vehicles all red, however, in 1966, Percy Main reverted to a simplified and modernised version of the original layout. Where possible, I have shown vehicles in their original livery, but in some cases, the only photos I have they are in what was the current version of the period.

Percy Main depot is located in what was until the early 70’s the County Borough of Tynemouth; the majority of vehicles that came to the depot new were registered in the Borough and carried FT registrations. At its peak, the combined Tynemouth & Wakefields fleets numbered 105 vehicles, the majority of which were double deckers, but included in that number were 17 Coaches and dual-purpose vehicles. Between 1945/9 many pre war vehicles were rebodied, so some vehicles, or to be more precise, the chassis, crop up more than once. None of the rebodied vehicles were re-registered, however, many were redistributed to other depots throughout the NGT group and were renamed and numbered, the vehicles that returned to Percy Main retained their original fleet numbers.

The Tynemouth and District story has its origins in 1879, when work began on the construction of a 3ft gauge horse drawn tramway between North Shields and Tynemouth; it opened on 29th June 1880, but went bankrupt the following year. It reopened in 1882, as a 3ft 6″ steam hauled system, but that too was doomed to failure, lasting only until 1886. The track was extended and reopened in 1890, under the name of North Shields & Tynemouth District Tramways Company; the livery was crimson lake and cream. The company became part of the British Electric Traction Company ‘BET’ in 1899; the following year the line closed for extension and conversion to electricity. In March 1901, the modernised line that now ran between the North Shields New Quay ‘Cross Tyne Ferry Landing’ and The Victoria Hotel in Whitley Bay, reopened under the new name of Tynemouth & District Electric Traction Company Ltd; in 1904, the line was further extended to Whitley Bay Bandstand making a total distance of just under 5 miles. On the 4th September 1902, Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Co; opened a line from North Shields to Wallsend/Newcastle Boundary, where it joined the Newcastle Corporation Tramways system, this allowed Tyneside trams to run into the City Centre and terminate at the Central Station. Tyneside became part of the BET Group in 1913, unfortunately joining the two systems was not possible because Tyneside ran on standard gauge track, and relaying the T&D lines would have been too costly. However, to provide North Shields with a partial overlap of the two systems, a third rail was laid along the half-mile section between Borough Road and Northumberland Square, thus allowing passengers to change easily from one route to the other. The last Tyneside tram ran on 6th April 1930, T&D tram services ceased the following year on 4th August 1931: In 1934, ‘Electric Traction’ was removed from the name, and the company became Tynemouth and District Transport Company Ltd: The name survived until 1975, when all NGT subsidiaries became Northern.

Information sourced from North Tyneside Libraries.

North Tyneside MBC

I have no idea of the significance of the black dot along the line of the A191. The map is c1990, and shows part of the South East corner of the Metropolitan Brough of North Tyneside. Much of the area shown is within what was the County Borough of Tynemouth. The route of the Tynemouth and District tramway is highlighted in black and the two squares along the route show where the tram sheds were, the one at the bottom was in Suez Street North Shields, and the other was John Street Cullercoats. When the line closed, John Street became the NGT group vehicle paint shop and body repair works, the location of Percy Main Garage is shown as a red square. At the time the tramway was completed in 1904, the area would have looked very different, most of the roads in red or orange would have existed, as did the railway, which was the N.E.R ‘later L.N.E.R’ North Tyne loop: Much of the area encircled by the loop was farmland; however, it contained dozens of collieries ‘none of which survive’ and several pit villages which have for the most part have become part the suburbs. Every pit in the area had its own railhead that linked it to the loop. A passenger service has always operated on the loop itself, but the primary function of the railway was transport coal to the Northumberland Dock at Howdon where it was loaded onto ships. The part of the network that survives is now part of the Tyne and Wear Metro system. The area south of the A193 was densely populated and highly industrialised, with thousands employed in the shipbuilding and repair yards located along the Tyne. The A1058 ‘New Coast Road’ was built in 1928; it ran from Newcastle to the junction of Billy Mill Avenue and Lynn Road, the blue square shows it’s full extent at that time. The Coast Road extension ‘Beach Road’ was completed in the 1960’s. The Tyne Tunnel, and the new roads linking it to Seaton Burn in the north and Birtley in the south opened in the 60’s, they became the A1 Newcastle bypass, and the existing A1 became the A167, but when the Newcastle Western bypass opened it was a case of ‘all change’ the Western bypass became the A1, and the previous bypass through, and to the north of the Tyne Tunnel became the A19, with the southern section becoming the A194.

J 2551, was Tynemouths first bus. A Daimler ‘B’ type new to Northern in 1914 as D1: it was originally a Brush bodied double decker, of the open top and open cab variety we are all familiar with from that era. It was one of five rebodied by Birch in 1919, and is seen here in that form, they were all transferred to Tynemouth when bus services commenced in 1921, on their arrival they became T1/5. Initially bus services were feeders for the tram network. Unfortunately, records and photos of pre war vehicles has been difficult to come by, however, my research suggests that; 1926, 6/11 were Brush BMMO bodied Tilling Stevens, in the same year, eleven BMMO 37’s arrived, they were numbered 12 and 14/23 ’13’ was not used, 1928 five BMMO SOS QL’s similar to the beautifully restored example at Beamish Museum. The bus network continued to expand rapidly, and in 1928, a more direct service to Newcastle became possible with the opening of the ‘New Coast Road’, which ran from Newcastle to Billy Mill, and considerably shortened the journey time to the coast: Licences to operate a service to Tynemouth along the new road were granted to Newcastle Corporation, ‘three vehicles’ Tynemouth and District ‘three vehicles’ and Wakefields Motors Ltd ‘two vehicles’. In addition, United and T&D were granted licences to operate a service to Whitley Bay and Blyth. Despite competition from United, NGT bought Wakefields from L.N.E.R in 1929, the purchase included six AEC and two Daimler vehicles, I do not have any details about them. In 1933, all Wakefields operations were placed under the control of T&D; and the vehicles were moved to Percy Main. However, Wakefields held some stage carriage, and a number of private hire, and excursion licences, so the name continued in use on some service vehicles and all Percy Main based coaches. Both companies ran in NGT livery, with fleet numbers in sequence.

The last tram ran in 1931, the tram depot in Suez Street North Shields closed, and the former tram sheds in Cullercoats became the NGT group paint shop and body repair works, where it remained until around the mid 50’s, when the work was moved to NGT central works at Bensham, and the Cullercoats site was sold for development.

These handsome H26/24R Short Brothers bodied AEC Regent 1’s, replaced the trams. There were sixteen in total, and I think they were FT 2516/23, 34/41 in 1931, and FT 2611/18, 42/49 in 1932, 42/5 carried the Wakefields name.

Northern Coachbuilders rebodied them in 1945 as seen here. Many of the newly rebodied vehicles were redistributed throughout the NGT group, but the vehicles that returned to Percy Main retained their original fleet number

These futuristic looking AEC Regent I’s with Short Brothers forward entrance bodies arrived on the scene in 1934; I do not have any information as to how many there were in total, but Percy Main, SDO and Northern all had them

At some point during the war, eleven of these vehicles were transferred to Northern, six Tynemouth and five from SDO, most were converted to diesel engines. All of the Short Bros bodies had an inherent structural weakness, some were so bad that special permission was granted to have them rebodied as utilities ‘as seen in this example from the Northern intake’ the rest were rebodied after the war. All the work was carried out by Northern Coachbuilders

Between 1935/6 Percy Main took delivery of eight of these legendary NGT/SE6 ‘Side engine 6 wheel’ vehicles, the one above was originally 82 in Tynemouth’s fleet. The first five were FT 3478.82 – 82/6, and had Short Bros B44F bodies, the three from 1936 were FT 3903/5 – 90/2 with NGT/Weymann bodies. When new they had Hercules WXC3, petrol engines, although most were later changed to AEC diesel. All eight were transferred to Northern in 1946. The original of the type. CN 6100, still survives, and is currently being restored by the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd

More forward entrance D/D vehicles joined the fleet in 1937; this time around Weymann built the bodies. The first three were AEC Regent I, FT 4220/2 – 93/5.

All the Weymann bodied forward entrance vehicles were rebodied in 1949. The Regent’s were done by Pickering.

In 1957, they had a third bite at the cherry, they headed to the south coast and joined Provincial as replacements for vehicles destroyed in garage fire, they remained in service with them until 1963

Eight more Weymann’s were delivered in 1938, FT 4596/4603 – 96/103, these were on Leyland TD5 chassis

The Leyland’s were also rebodied, despite the similar appearance the new bodies are Northern Coachbuilders not ECW

Ronnie Hoye
09/2013

27/09/13 – 10:59

A very interesting article, and I look forward to the other parts.

However, I have a question: was there really a three-rail overlap between the Tyneside and Tynemouth tramway systems from Borough Road to Northumberland Square in North Shields? According to George Hearse’s “The Tramways of Northumberland” (1961) the three-rail section was a 30 yard stretch in Prudhoe Street west of its junction with Borough Road and Saville Street. This had been the western terminus of the Tynemouth horse and steam trams, and remained as a siding of the Tynemouth system (3’6″) when the newly-electrified route was built down the steep bank of Borough Road to the ferry landing in 1901. The Tyneside line (4’8.5″) was built the following year and used one rail of this siding to reach the east end of Prudhoe Street. This was the eastern terminus of Tyneside trams. As far as I know, Tyneside trams never ran east of that point (and similarly the subsequent Tyneside bus service terminated in North Shields near there by looping round Coach Lane, Stanley Street West and the top part of Borough Road).

Paul Robson

27/09/13 – 18:16

Paul, as I said, the information came from an article in North Tyneside Libraries, as we know, they are not always 100% accurate and at times have to be taken with a pinch of salt. I suspect that neither of us is old enough to remember trams in North Shields, and I was a bit sceptical as to why an overlap would go that far. However, I have seen photos of an overlap going as far as The Sir Colin Campbell in Saville Street, that would be about a hundred yards to the East of the junction of Borough Road, which would make far more sense.

Ronnie Hoye

28/09/13 – 07:18

Hearse is quite clear about where he thought the dual-gauge track was, but he might have been wrong. It would be interesting to see the photo of Saville Street.

Hearse’s book also has a photo of a Leyland Titan bus that replaced the Tyneside trams. The body is identical to the 1931 Short Bros. body on the AEC Regent in your article.

Paul Robson

28/09/13 – 11:34

Paul, I’ve dug out three photos taken from more or less the same spot.

in the first from Prudhoe St you can see the lines and overhead wires turn from Saville Street into Borough Road to go down to the New Quay.

In the second from Prudhoe St looking East they also come across the junction from Prudhoe Street.

The third Saville St looking West with a T&D tram turning into Saville
Street, no third rail in that shot either, but it does have the Tyneside tracks on the other side of the junction.

Ronnie Hoye

04/10/13 – 15:11

Re the connection between the Tynemouth and Tyneside systems, Charles Reed in his reminiscences of the Tynemouth tramways in Tramway Review Vol 4 No 29 (1961) writes:-

“I can well remember the [Tynemouth] trams terminating at . . . Prudhoe Street on a short length of track mixed-gauge, end to end with the trams of the Tyneside . . . company”.

I have an extensive collection of postcards showing Tynemouth trams in North Shields and have never seen evidence of the mixed gauge track continuing into Saville Street. For it to have done so would have been costly (involving crossing Tynemouth points) and would have meant cars of different gauges getting mixed up with and obstructing each other. It’s also hard to imagine what the purpose of it would have been.

But I had another question. For how long did the replacement buses carry the “via tram route” signs I have seen in photographs? I can’t remember them myself, but my late parents always spoke of the No 8 bus as ‘the tram route’.

Percy Trimmer

04/10/13 – 17:18

Sorry, Percy, I don’t have an answer to that. Has you probably know, the service 7 & 8 followed the old tram route from the New Quay to Whitley Bay Bandstand, at which point the 8 terminated and the 7 continued to Blyth. Several routes were known by nick names rather than numbers ‘some are not fit for publication’ but crews always referred to the 8 as ‘the Track’

Ronnie Hoye

04/10/13 – 17:30

Somehow, Ronnie, your Part I passed me by. Northern General has always fascinated me, especially the NGT/SE vehicles, a brief DIY effort.

I had a definite deja vu moment when I saw the Regent I/Short Bros photo, identical to the sole Portsmouth Corporation one, which never reached a parlous body state, having been written off by enemy action in 1941. Even the paint style was identical, save for the autovac! And the Regent/Weymann ones, so much like my Cheltenham District posting, although the CD ones had the traditional rear platform. Those Weymann bodies were very handsome, I must say.

Chris Hebbron

10/10/13 – 17:53

The People’s Collection on the Beamish website contains a view looking west from the Borough Road junction with double tram tracks leading into Prudhoe Street. It corresponds to two of the pics previously posted by Ronnie but looking in the opposite direction. Click on the thumbnails for bigger pictures although resolution is still low and hides much of the detail. http://collections.beamish.org.uk

The OS 1:2500 map for 1918 confirms a two track junction at this crossroads with the tracks in Prudhoe Street converging to form a reversing stub which is continuous with the Tyneside stub. It seems likely that the mixed gauge arrangement (George Hearse states 30 yards long) would lie at this mutual reversing location and that the Tyneside trams never went further east than here.

Notes from Tyneside T&T board meetings state:

13th September 1910 – “Negotiations with Tynemouth DET to lay a third rail along Prudhoe Street, North Shields, still in progress”.

12th June 1911 – “Laying of third rail in Prudhoe Street complete and cars running over same”.

Tony Fox

14/05/15 – 16:26

Regarding the 1938 Leyland TD5s, 96-103, according to the Northern subsidiaries Fleet History, these vehicles were rebodied by Eastern Coach Works in 1948. Tynemouth did have some AEC Regents with NCB bodies, but these had a different body style. I believe that the ECW look-alike style was introduced in 1950. Northern had, I believe a batch of Guys with NCB bodies of that style. I can recall these Leylands in the early fifties operating on service 5, however by 1958, when I started travelling to school on this route, they had gone and Guy Arabs 203-7 were the regular vehicles at that time.

John Gibson

15/05/15 – 06:33

John. I can assure you that 93/106 were not rebodied by ECW. Under the terms of the Transport act of 1947. Bristol chassis and/or ECW bodies were off limits to BET companies. The design is ECW derived, but the bodies were built by NCB.

Ronnie Hoye

15/05/15 – 17:50

Hi, Ronnie, thanks for your response. As you say, the 1947 Transport Act prohibited ECW and Bristol from supplying vehicles to non BTC companies, however, this only applied to new orders – they were allowed to complete orders that had already been placed, which took some time.

For confirmation that these bodies were by ECW, have a look at ECW 1946-1965 by M G Doggett and A A Townsin (Venture Publications 1993). On page 38, there is what looks to be an official photo of T100 (FT 4500) which clearly has an Eastern Coachworks sign placed in the destination box. There were actually thirteen of these bodies, eight for Tynemouth and five for Northern. Incidentally, Alan Townsin was originally from Newcastle, and so was probably familiar with these vehicles.

John Gibson

16/05/15 – 06:17

The black dot on the A191 appears to be in the area of the Wheatsheaf Inn, between New York and Backworth (spelling) colliery.

Perhaps those locations have some significance in the history of the company.

John Lomas

16/12/16 – 14:20

In the map at the start of the site you make mention of the ‘black dot’ which you have no idea what it meant. I am fairly sure, no, make that certain, that this is Northumberland Square which was the place in North Shields up to around the late 1960s where all bus services started from or passengers interchanged. Companies using them were Tynemouth, Hunters and United.

Newcastle Corporation buses service No11 and Tynemouth Service also No 11 ran a joint service but by-passed this by stopping on Albion Road to the north of the square on the way from Tynemouth Front Street to Newcastle Haymarket

I notice that there is a similar black dot further down the route in Whitley Bay and this was and still may be the smaller Bus Station.

I have not been there for a few years.

John King

16/12/16 – 16:52

I think the dot referred to originally is the round one out to the west, not either of the square ones.
The round dot is on the A191 and seems to relate to the Hypermarket north of the junction and the industrial estate south of it which appear on the ’85 -’95 OS. This is just to the west of New York the faint yellow loop of roads seen on the map just to the east.
www.old-maps.co.uk/ You may have to zoom out to see the map.

John Lomas

21/12/16 – 10:00

I have managed to get a Tynemouth and Wakefields fleet list, so hopefully I can correct any errors and fill in the gaps in my article. To the best of my knowledge, the article is correct for post war vehicles. Here is a link to view the fleet list. Tynemouth and Wakefields fleet list 1921 – 1944

Ronnie Hoye

28/12/16 – 06:45

Ronnie Hoye & John Lomas.

Reference the round dot, looking at the two maps and referring to the old map from John a B.S. is showing could this be Bus Stop it would not be Bus Station. I seem to recall a Farm House/Out buildings on the North Side of the road a gate is still visible in the fence however the farm buildings are long gone (fire damage) the B.S on the map is showing close to the gate hence bus stop near to Farm House. On the upgrading of road this stretch now has 2 stops on the North Side with the original one in the middle of the said present 2 stops. Having driven past Tuesday evening 27/12/16 the fields to the North retain boundaries as shown in old map with little to no change to green belt area. The B.S. on the old map may be a abbreviation as the public house to the right of map shows a P.H. under the listing of the Wheatsheaf at Murton so may be the B.S. is Bus Stop however I stand to be corrected.

Alan Coulson

The Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Company Limited

I am extremely grateful to Tony Fox, and Bill Donald, for their help in putting this article together. The Tyneside name ceased to exist as an identity in 1975, inevitably, some records have been lost entirely, and in instances where I am aware of more than one account of events, I have pointed this out, nevertheless, I do not claim that the article is 100% accurate.

This is a relatively modern map, but it illustrates Tyneside’s tram routes to North Shields and Gosforth, it does not show the route into Newcastle City Centre. Some records say the terminus was Stanhope Street, whilst others say Central Station. I am not familiar with Newcastle’s tram network, but the two places are not that far apart, and travelling from Wallsend, Stanhope Street is beyond the Central Station, so possibly it went to one via the other. Tyneside’s depot ‘the black square at the end of the spur’ was situated in Neptune Road Wallsend; behind ‘Thermal Syndicate’ offices overlooking Swan Hunters Shipyard. In the 60’s, the factory was extended, and the buses were relocated to a new purpose built depot about half a mile east along Hadrian Road ‘shown as a red square’ what remained of the old depot became an ambulance station, apparently the tracks were not removed until 1975. Tyneside became part of the British Electric Traction Company in 1913; ideally, where the Tyneside and Tynemouth and District systems met, they would have been joined to form a through route from Newcastle to Whitley Bay. However, this proved to be a none starter as the track gauges were not compatible, Tyneside ran on 4ft 8½” standard gauge, Tynemouth none standard 3ft 6″ and the cost of conversion would have been enormous. However, where the two sets of tracks met, at the junction of Prudhoe Street and Saville Street, a short third rail overlap was created. Accounts differ as to which side of the junction the overlap was actually on, but I believe that it was unique in the British Isles. The last Tyneside tram ran on 6th April 1930: Bus services commenced with the two routes inherited from the trams, neither was numbered, but they were known locally as ‘The green bus’ the somewhat long-winded company name remained the same until 1965, when they became the Tyneside Omnibus Company Limited.

Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Company Limited; played a smaller, but none the less significant role in the pre National Bus Company history of public transport in North Tyneside. The story begins on 4th September 1902, with the opening of a tram service from North Shields to the Wallsend/Newcastle Boundary; from that point onwards, they ran on Newcastle Corporation Tramways track. As far as I am aware, the revenue taken on that section of the route went to Newcastle Corporation, and Tyneside received payment for the mileage they covered. They also had a second route from Wallsend to Gosforth. Until the early 50’s the fleet numbers had a TT prefix, but never exceeding more than around twenty vehicles in total, to the best of my knowledge, Tyneside was the smallest of the Northern General Transport Group subsidiary companies. Their close neighbours Wakefields Motors Limited, had fewer service buses, but they also had coaches, so in altogether they had more vehicles than Tyneside.

The livery was dark leaf green and cream, and the buses were sage green and cream

After the First World War, Towns and Cities began to expand rapidly, consequently bus services were need to serve the needs of the ever- increasing populations. Tynemouth and District Electric Traction Company Limited began bus services in 1921; Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Company Limited may have begun bus services at roughly the same time. However, according to the fleet records, Tyneside did not have any buses prior to 1930; but it is entirely possible they will have held stage carriage licences, which would explain the confusion. What is not in dispute is that Tynemouth and District operated a route from North Shields to Blyth via Whitley Bay. Accounts differ as to how this particular service came about. One version of events is that T&D successfully applied for licences to operate other routes in the North Shields and Wallsend areas. Meanwhile, Tilling Group rivals United, were expanding their stage carriage operations into South East Northumberland. BET regarded this as a threat, so to protect their ‘territory’ from further encroachment, T&D applied for a licence to run the service to Blyth, they were successful and the licence was granted. Another interpretation is that United objected and the application was refused. However, BET had anticipated an objection and had submitted a second application through Tyneside, and this proved to be successful. Nevertheless, I have been unable to find any documented evidence that Tyneside simultaneously ran tram and bus services alongside each other. If indeed they were granted the licence, it’s possible that T&D operated the service on Tyneside’s behalf. Obviously both cannot be right, and I am not prepared to speculate as to which of them is.

Tram Replacements

Six L27/24RO all Leyland TD1’s, arrived in 1930, TY 6970/75 initially numbered 31/36 but renumbered 1/6 in 1936. TY 7398 and 7913 numbered 7/8, followed them later the same year.

A rear view of what appears to be TY 7913

I have conflicting accounts as to what happened to these vehicles afterwards. Version 1, states that 1/4/7&8 were given H30/26R Northern Coachbuilders bodies in 1943 and by 1946, they had all been fitted with diesel engines. They were sold to Robson Bros of Haltwhistle in 1951, with 4 eventually becoming a Showman’s vehicle. Version 2 is that post war 1/4/7&8 were returned to Leyland to have the chassis overhauled and to be rebodied, and they came back as 28-31. Personally, I doubt this, my reasons being. In the 40’s & 50’s, many NGT group buses were rebodied, some which were originally from SDO & T&D were renumbered and allocated to different depots, but invariably they all retained their original registrations. Other records have 28/9&30 as a PD1 and 31 as a PD2 with new issue registrations. Wilts and Dorset bought 2/3/5; they were rebodied by ECW and fitted with Gardner 5LW engines, 6 was requisitioned by the Ministry of Transport in 1939 and went to Buckland of Perth.

Pictured at Hodgson’s on Benfield Road; the Leyland dealer for Newcastle, are three H27/24R all Leyland TD1 in Tyneside livery and numbered 9/11. New vehicles ordered by Tyneside had Northumberland registrations, but VK 3839/41 are Newcastle. They were delivered to Newcastle Corporation in January 1931, but were never numbered as part of their fleet. One explanation is that Newcastle wanted to retain an interest in the former tram route they had shared with Tyneside, but The County Borough of Tynemouth would not allow Newcastle Corporation vehicles within its boundaries. However, they had been operating on the Newcastle Tynemouth service 11, since 1928, this route was shared with Tynemouth and District and Wakefields, so I am not entirely convinced. Be that as it may, by the end of 1931, they moved to Wallsend, and remained with Tyneside until they were withdrawn from service in 1938, which seems a very short life for a Leyland. They were bought by Barton Transport, Chilwell, and rebodied by Duple as L55F.

It’s not clear if they came before or after the TS3A’s from Southdown, but between 1930 & 1931 Tyneside borrowed nine vehicles from Newcastle Corporation. Three CF6 Daimler demonstrators UB 1569 – VC 3882 and VR 5898. The Daimlers were later purchased by Lanarkshire Traction Company. The other six were English Electric H26/26R AEC Regents, VK 2378/9/70 May/June in 1930, then VK 2397/8/9 July 1930 to January 1931.

I don’t know if any more of the other Newcastle Corporation AEC’s which had been loaned to Tyneside were involved, but VK 2399 certainly got around. It had a spell on wartime service with London Transport, but was still in Newcastle livery.

Eight O27/24RO Tilling Stevens TS3A petrol electrics were bought from Southdown. One each from 1920 & 22, the rest were 1923. Registered in Brighton, they had a CD index but the numbers were not in sequence. They were allocated Tyneside fleet numbers 37/44.

43; CD 6834 – 1923

44; CD 6894 – 1922

42; CD 7703 – 1923

37; CD 7708 – 1923

38; CD 7711 – 1923

41; CD 8013 – 1923

43; CD 8282 – 1920

39; CD 8423 – 1923

Their Southdown fleet numbers were 201 – 94 -203/7/11/13, 82 & 223 respectively. 43 was originally numbered CD 5624, but was rebodied and reregistered in 1923 following a fire. They came to Tyneside from Southdown via Tilling Stevens in either 1930 or 1931 and had all been withdrawn by 1939.

12 – JR 773: an H27/24R all Leyland TD2 new in 1932, it was fitted with a diesel engine in 1946 and withdrawn in 1949. No further records found.

13 – JR 2393: an H27/25R all Leyland TD3c. In 1946, Burlingham rebodied it as H30/26R a diesel engine was fitted, on its return from Burlingham it was it reallocated to Gateshead. In 1956 it was sold to a building contractor in Hetton Le Hole, for use as a staff transport vehicle.

14/16 – JR 4049/51: H30/26R all Leyland TD4c new in 1935. Withdrawn in 1952, no further records found.

17 – TJ 4511: a 1933 H24/24F Weymann bodied Leyland TD3c demonstrator. It was bought by Tyneside in 1935, and rebodied by Northern Coachbuilders in 1944. It was withdrawn in 1952 and became a Showman’s vehicle. Presumably it was similar to the 1938 forward entrance Weymann bodied TD5’s of T&D, which can be found in my article about Percy Main.

A handsome 1938 Leyland TD5, its one of nine ordered by Tyneside. JR 8618/26 – 18/26. The body is an ECW design, but some records indicate that it was Leeds Coachbuilders Charles Roe who built them; they were the last buses to be delivered before WWII. They had long lives and were not withdrawn until 1954. Records suggest 18/22/3/4/5&6 went to Showmen, and 19/20&21 were sold to a dealer in London, but nothing further can be found. Its strange how many of Tyneside’s vehicles seemed to go to Showmen.

CN 5242: a 1931 Brush bodied AEC Regent; Apparently Tyneside’s only diesel engined AEC. It was new to Northern as 564; 1n 1932 it was transferred to Tynemouth where it became 50. It moved to Tyneside in 1941 and became No 27. Rebodied by Northern Coachbuilders in 1946, it returned to Northern as 1403.

Post War

Tyneside’s first post war buses were three 1946, H30/26R all Leyland PD1 Titans BTY 168/70 – 28/30. 31/33 – CTY 331/333: 1948 H30/26R all Leyland PD2/1. Officially on long term loan, 28/30 & 31/33, were transferred to Tynemouth 1958. They were repainted in T&D livery but retained Tyneside fleet numbers. 34/37 – ENL 680/683 1951 H30/26R all Leyland PD2/3. 34&6 went to F Cowley of Salford.

This PD2/3 was the last Tyneside bus to enter service before the arrival of the 1954 Orion bodied PD2/12’s. Its fleet number was 38; but, BCN 889 is a Gateshead registration. It was new in 1951, records say it was transferred from Gateshead the same year, but all Gateshead half cabs had a Newcastle Corporation style destination layout, and this one does not. Personally, I am inclined to think it may have been diverted to Tyneside before it left the Leyland factory, and never actually enter service with Gateshead. 35 – 37&8 were sold to Alexander (Greyhound) of Arbroath.

Here I go off on one of my rants again. Tyneside’s Newcastle terminus was in Croft Street; literally two minutes from the bottom of Northumberland Street, the main shopping thoroughfare in Newcastle. The building behind, is the old City Library in New Bridge Street. In the 70’s, several of the Cities Councillors stood trial for corruption and subsequently became guests in one of Her Majesty’s Prisons. Unfortunately, it came too late to save this, and many more of the City Centres beautiful buildings. Like many other Cities, Newcastle had its heart ripped out and destroyed. A hideous modern monstrosity, which has since been demolished, replaced the Library; at the time, it was called ‘progress’ today it would be criminal damage.

In 1954, Tyneside took delivery of nine H35/28R – MCW Orion bodied Leyland PD2/12’s GTY 169/77 39/47.

The other end of the route was Borough Road North Shields.

Tyneside had three 1958 H41/32R MCW Orion bodied Leyland PD3/4’s – NNL 48/50 – 48/50; Although in Tyneside livery, they spent the first months of their lives on loan to Tynemouth and District. After withdrawal 48 and 50 became Northern Group training buses, a rather different fate awaited 49.

Late comers to the world of rear engine buses. Tyneside were nearly four years behind T&D with these PDR1/1 MKII Leyland Atlantean‘s; they were in fact the last D/D depot in the group to get them.

The first three BTY 151/3B – 51/3 arrived in 1964, they had H43/32F Weymann bodies, and rather suited the Tyneside livery. The style of lettering on the Shop at Binns logo would make this photo no earlier than 1966. This is not the last time we shall see this vehicle, so prepare yourselves for a shock.

Between 1965 & 67, Tyneside took delivery of six PDR1/1 MKII Atlanteans with the superb H43/32F Alexander body; ENL 354/5C 54/5 in 1965 – HJR 656/7D 56/7 in 1966 – KNL 58/9E 58/9 in 1967 and one more in 1968, NNL 60F – 60 which had an H44/33F version of the body. This was to be Tyneside’s last new D/D pre NBC. By the end of 1973, all Tyneside’s vehicles had been painted in a hideous livery.

The start of OPO operations in 1969, and Tyneside ventured into what for them had previously been unexplored territory, they took delivery of their first single deck buses.

Two B48D Marshall Camair bodied PSUR1A/1R Leyland Panthers – RJR 61/2G – 61/2, were the only single deck vehicles to carry the Tyneside name. Two Bristol RELL ECW B44D’s which were scheduled to arrive, and would have been 63/4, were diverted to Gateshead, 61/2 were transferred with them. Tyneside were allocated two former SDO Burlingham bodied PD3’s. YPT 289&292 which became 66/7, They were painted yellow rather than green.

Strictly speaking, these 1973 Daimlers are too young for this site, but the chassis and body type ‘not necessarily in this combination’ had been around for a while, and they illustrate how fleets changed post NBC. Tyneside had five H45/27D – ECW bodied CRL6 Daimler Fleetlines, ETY 90/94L, they were the only Tyneside buses in the short-lived NBC green layout, before they became T&W yellow, and were the last to carry the Tyneside name. The fleet numbers had gone haywire; they were 90/94L. 92L is seen here on loan to Gateshead.

Life after Tyneside

After withdrawal from service, all 1954 intake had extended lives, 39 was bought by Samuel Ledgard, 40 went to Wells of Hatfield. 41/2/5&6 became Northern Group training buses, and 43/4 went to Patton Bros of Renfrew. By the time this photo was taken, 45 was at least 14 years old, it’s still in Tyneside green, the name has been changed but other than that it’s in more or less in the same condition as it was the last time it carried passengers.

47, had a different ending. It went to the central engineering department at Bensham, where it was converted into a mobile workshop come towing vehicle, after that it became a ‘tree lopper’ it was still around as late as 1980

A very high proportion of Tyneside’s vehicles saw further service with other companies, and a surprising number went to Fairground Showmen. Inevitably, others went straight for scrap, but of all Tyneside’s buses, it was 49, which was to have the most unusual ending. Around 1969, it was involved in a serious accident, and at one stage it was being cannibalised for spares, however, the development team at NGT decided to see if a cost effective conversion could be found of front engine vehicles for OPO operations. This was the result, one of the Routemasters was given a slightly less radical treatment, they were named Tynesider and Wearsider. They were a brave attempt, but a failure. For a while, this one was based at Percy Main, but only used for staff transport.

New Tyneside vehicles were NL – JR or TY Northumberland County registrations, this one was reregistered after its rebuild. Ironically, it has survived into preservation. To date it is located somewhere in the Liverpool area.

Finally

All BET and Tilling Group companies suffered when the National Bus Company was created, and my views on the subject are no secret; even small depots like Tyneside were not immune from the disease of apathy and neglect. As well as the introduction of an atrocious corporate livery, they lost their identity and fleet numbers, and the vehicles looked neglected. BTY 151B is typical; Wheel trims gone, no shine and the paintwork looking like a patchwork quilt, hard to believe this is the same well cared for vehicle we saw earlier looking resplendent in sage green and cream. The destination suggests the vehicle was now part of the Gateshead fleet.

Following the creation of NBC, the name, livery and fleet numbers were changed, but the depot was still on the go, and both the routes were still in operation, but the newly formed T&W PTE had other ideas. The Corporation fleets of Newcastle, South Shields and Sunderland came together as a single unit, in a common livery; the PTE took administrative control of all routes wholly within Tyne and Wear boundaries, and decided that no two routes within the area would have the same number. Virtually everything changed; Newcastle Corporation’s route numbers started at 1, and with a few exceptions remained more or less the same. The numbers radiated out from Newcastle and some went up into the 800’s. The Newcastle North Shields route became the 313, and the route to Gosforth discontinued. Many routes were abandoned and other services rerouted to cover areas which otherwise would be without a service. The remains of Tyneside’s fleet was transferred to Gateshead in 1975, and replaced by vehicles brought in from various sources, none of them ever carried the Tyneside name whilst in service, but I believe one has been preserved in Tyneside livery. Eventually the 313 became another abandoned route, and the double deck fleet was reallocated to other depots. The PTE started several minibus routes in the Wallsend area, and the vehicles were garaged at Hadrian Road. However, none of the routes survived deregulation and the depot in now home to a Car and van hire company.

RIP Tyneside 1902 – 1975.

Ronnie Hoye

11/2013

08/11/13 – 17:13

The trams were numbered 1 to 30, so it looks as if the buses were, at first, numbered to follow-on from the trams.

In “The Tramways of Northumberland” George Hearse makes no mention of Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads bus operations before the abandonment of the trams though he does mention Tynemouth and District bus operations in the 1920s. That has always led me to think that TTT did not have a bus operation in the 1920s.

I think that George Hearse had access to the archives of Northern General Transport, TTT and T+D; he was also probably alive in the 1920s. So my guess is that he would have mentioned TTT buses if there had been any in the 1920s. He also said that the Newcastle terminus was Stanhope Street.

Paul Robson

09/11/13 – 06:05

Interesting article, Ronnie & Co.

The eight ex-Southdown Tilling-Stevens TS3A’s were almost certainly purchased to replace the trams scrapped in 1930. These ‘gearless’ buses would have made a useful interim vehicle for the tram drivers. More about these vehicles is at this link. It’s such a shame that none of them was preserved – It’s likely that they were the last in public service.

Chris Hebbron

09/11/13 – 06:07

Nice article Ronnie, with some lovely views of Tyneside vehicles – and aren’t the older style fleetnames huge? No disputing ownership of the vehicles there then. I well remember seeing Leyland Titan PD2 GTY 169 parked at the rear of Samuel Ledgard’s Otley depot still wearing Tyneside’s attractive green and cream livery. Some months later I saw it again following its overhaul and repaint into Sammie’s equally attractive blue and light grey. The Yorkshire firm presumably took a shine to GTY’s lightweight bodywork, as not long afterwards they acquired four similar-looking buses on AEC Regent V chassis from South Wales Transport. I have heard that the Titan could give quite a bouncy ride on rough road surfaces however, due to the combination of lightweight body and heavyweight chassis, but no doubt the Titan’s performance would have been quite sprightly as a result.

Brendan Smith

09/11/13 – 15:19

As you say, Brendan, the PD2 could be a bit lively. Percy Main depot used to borrow vehicles from Tyneside on a regular basis, I never drove one of their PD2’s, but I have driven all their PD3’s and the Weymann and Alexander bodied Atlanteans. We had some Willowbrook bodied PD2’s, and they tended to bounce a lot when empty or light loaded, but they were rather better at stopping than the PD3. It could be a rather interesting shift if you had one of Tyneside’s buses; Tyneside routes were not numbered, so people in Wallsend saw a ‘green bus’ and didn’t bother to look at the destination blind, they just assumed it was going to Newcastle, North Shields or Gosforth, so the traffic clerk had to make doubly sure they were allocated to a route that never went anywhere near Wallsend. As a rule they would usually be on one of the Coast Road routes, i.e. the 3 – 5 or 11

Ronnie Hoye

12/11/13 – 12:00

Many thanks Ronnie for the kind acknowledgement to myself and Tony Fox. I’ll just add some further information that lies within my own specialist interest, namely the electrical aspects of the tramway – an aspect that is largely overlooked in tramway history accounts.

It is not generally recognised that the Tyneside Tramways & Tramroads Company (TTT) was very closed associated with the Newcastle upon Tyne Electric Supply Company (NESCO), and the electrical engineering consultants Merz and McLellan (M&M).

Aside from shared directors of TTT and NESCO – the chairman of NESCO Dr. J.T. Merz was a founder and director of TTT, M&M pitched in with senior partner William McLellan serving throughout the tramway’s operation as their de-facto chief engineer. The tram shed at Neptune Bank, Wallsend was conveniently adjacent to NESCO’s Neptune Bank power station, and TTT shared land, amenities, office services among many other aspects of their business. Indeed it could be said the Tyneside Tramways were the public transport arm of NESCO.

One factor that helped TTT enormously was the availability and low cost of power. Like the North Eastern Railway (NER) a few years later, TTT didn’t have the capital cost burden of erecting their own power station – this was all provided by NESCO.

Power was supplied to TTT’s substation on the Neptune Bank site and this stepped down the 6KV three-phase AC from NESCO to 500 volts. This lower voltage AC was then fed to motor-generators sets which produced the 550 volt DC, suitable for the tramway. A motor-generator is essentially an AC motor mechanically coupled to a DC motor. When one of these motors serves as the prime mover, the other motor functions as a generator. Thus, AC in gives DC out and vice versa. In traction use the motor-generator was largely replaced by rotary converters, a single machine which does the same thing more efficiently and uses less space.

The output capacity of TTT’s Neptune Bank substation limited the length of the route to Gosforth. Although TTT had originally planned to reach the Coxlodge district, this was thwarted by Newcastle Corporation Tramways (NCT). So the Gosforth route terminated in Church Road, Gosforth from 1901 until 1904. TTT then considered Seaton Burn as their ultimate northern terminal.

Meanwhile NESCO had been busy extending its distribution network in the area and had commissioned a substation in Gosforth for the rapidly growing domestic, office and shop lighting demand. After installing a rotary converter set they were able to offer a 550 volt DC supply to TTT. This meant that the extension northwards to Seaton Burn could be implemented, no doubt to the dismay of NCT, who’s territorial ambitions were rather more than a match for TTT. However it would seem that the dream of Seaton Burn was to remain elusive as the tramway only reached the western gates of Gosforth Park in 1904. This was probably due to the voltage drop on the running wire which precluded getting any further.

Other reasons why this happened could have been lack of capital, overestimates of traffic levels arising within the Seaton Burn district, and availability of power supply – it was another four years before NESCO had extended its distribution into the south east Northumberland coalfield.

It is fair to say that after 1904, TTT stagnated in terms of potential expansion of its tram network. With the huge advantage of having a cosy deal for electricity from NESCO and no expensive power station to run, the original can-do spirit from the directors seems to have quickly evaporated.

By 1910 NESCO had reached the lucrative Ashington mining district of south east Northumberland with their state-of-the-art 20KV network, and with two substantial interconnected power stations at Carville and Dunston courtesy of the engineering brilliance of M&M, power supply was no impediment.
Indeed, had the NER listened to Charles Merz of M&M, the whole of the Blyth & Tyne section could have been electrified for both passenger and freight. I suppose this would have led the railway to wonder what to do with their legions of G5 and J27 locomotives – but that’s another story.

Bill Donald

13/11/13 – 08:41

Well done, Ronnie, with that comprehensive and well-illustrated history of Tyneside T & T.

A few comments:

1. Newcastle Corporation and Tyneside shared operations on three parts of the Tyneside Tramways network. Tramway A: from Wallsend High Street to the City/Wallsend Boundary on Shields Road. Tramway B: from Wallsend High Street to the City Boundary on Neptune Road (near Tyneside’s depot). Tramway C: northwards from Gosforth along the Great North Road to Gosforth Park.

2. Services operated by the Corporation over Tyneside’s tramways worked from Stanhope Street (and other destinations) to Wallsend High Street via Shields Road, from Westgate Road via Riverside to Wallsend High Street and from the Central Station to Gosforth Park. Corporation trams never operated east of Wallsend High Street, rather like the replacement bus services – Tyneside ran Newcastle Croft Street to North Shields throughout, but the Corporation service 13 only ran as far as Wallsend, taking in Walkerville on the way.

3. Does anyone know where the two Corporation tram services actually reversed in Wallsend? Possibilities are High Street West or Park Road, where trailing crossovers are shown on 1900-1930 maps. It would be nice to think that a ‘semi-circular’ service was at some time operated, i.e. into Wallsend via Shields Road then out again via Park Road, Buddle Street to the Riverside route (and vice versa), but no evidence of that has ever come to light.

A Tyneside tram reversing on Westgate Road, Newcastle, in 1912. (Photo from Flickr, copyright Newcastle Libraries)

4. Tyneside used Corporation tracks from August 1904 for a through service from North Shields to Stanhope Street in Newcastle via Wallsend, Shields Road, Grey’s Monument and Barrack Road. Corporation trams to Stanhope Street usually reversed in Brighton Grove but there is photographic evidence that Tyneside trams ran further, on to Westgate Road and reversed there.

5. From September 1925, Tyneside were able to use the Corporation’s Gosforth Park Light Railway to provide a recreational service from Wallsend and North Shields via the North Road to Gosforth Park, looping back over the Corporation’s West Moor route to reach their own network by a junction on Benton Road (called “Tyneside Crossing”, funnily enough!).

6. Tyneside’s original services had started in September 1902 (Wallsend to North Shields), October 1902 (Wallsend to Gosforth Church Road) and June 1904 (Gosforth to Gosforth Park, this being delayed by extensive railway-related works on the North Road, over the North Eastern Railway’s new Ponteland Branch).

7. After a great deal of wrangling, combined Tyneside/Corporation operations commenced in August 1904 (except for the Neptune Road link, delayed until November 1906 by the building of a new bridge under the NER’s Riverside Branch).

8. Relations between Newcastle Corporation and the Tyneside company had soured during 1901/2, when Tyneside twice had to change their plans for a tram terminus in Gosforth because of the Corporation’s successive extensions up Gosforth High Street. First choice had been the west end of The Grove (authorised but never built), then the west end of Church Road and finally in a side-street diversion via Rothwell Road, necessary to get to the North Road beyond the Corporation’s tracks at Henry Street.

A Tyneside tram on the mixed-gauge North Shields reversing stub in Prudhoe Street, North Shields, 1925. (Photo from Tomorrows-history)

9. Tyneside’s initial terminus in North Shields was at the Prudhoe Street/Spencer Street junction, a few feet west of the Tynemouth & District Company’s reversing loop opposite the Theatre Royal. By June 1911 the famous mixed gauge section was in operation, enabling Tyneside trams to run along the north side of the Tynemouth loop to reach the far end of Prudhoe Street. A very poor photograph, with a Tyneside tram at the extended terminus, JUST shows the third rail in place.

10. Leyland PD2/3 No. 38 (BCN 889) started life as a Northern General vehicle (part of the 1389-1393 batch), hence the registration number and the single aperture destination layout. It was new in March 1951 and transferred to Tyneside in June of that year.

Tony Fox

14/11/13 – 17:45

My impression is that the initial strategy of TT&T was to build tram lines in areas adjacent to the Newcastle Corporation network and then push for running rights into the city centre of Newcastle. As well as Wallsend and Gosforth, the initial plans included a line from Benton to Forest Hall and West Moor then through Gosforth Park. The main traffic would be into Newcastle, not to Wallsend or Gosforth. The through-running agreement of July 1904 came after TT&T had introduced a Bill in Parliament and after a public campaign by TT&T in favour of through-running. It isn’t surprising that relations were difficult between TT&T and Newcastle Corporation for some time after this.

My impression is also that the purpose of the Gosforth – Wallsend line was mainly to link up these areas with the base in Wallsend rather than as a traffic-spinning route in its own right.

Paul Robson

18/11/13 – 09:56

The caption indicates body of Leyland TD5 No 22 was possibly built by Roe, but it’s obviously an ECW design and the location of the photo looks like Nicholas Everitt Park in Oulton Broad where many ECW official photos were taken. It’s unlikely to have a body built in Leeds, drive it to Lowestoft for a photograph and return to Newcastle for delivery. Your thoughts???

Ray Stringer

18/11/13 – 13:41

As I said at the start, Ray, I do not claim that the article is 100% accurate, and I am merely pointing out that some records indicate that Roe built the bodies to an ECW design. As for the location, I am not familiar with the place you mention, so I can’t argue, however, there are no landmark buildings around, and I would have thought that one set of park railings look pretty much the same as any other, so the photo could have been taken quite literally anywhere.

Ronnie Hoye

18/11/13 – 14:30

…..but Geoff Lumb on page 53 of his book Charles H Roe makes reference to May 1940 when ECW couldn’t get materials for a batch of K5Gs for United Counties. Roe couldn’t source some TD7s for West Riding and an agreement was made for Roe to body the K5Gs with various ECW features – including six bay bodywork – to harmonise with the rest of the UCOC fleet.

It’s possible that these weren’t the only ECW/Roe hybrids.

David Oldfield

18/11/13 – 15:19

I’m surprised that someone on this forum hasn’t mentioned the fact that PD2/12, GTY 169 pictured above, found it’s way to Samuel Ledgard after service with Tyneside!

Chris Barker

19/11/13 – 05:45

In a book on ECW (2007) by Malcolm R White the same photo is on page 23 surrounded by three others at the same location and in this instance the picture is attributed to ECW as an official photo taken by their photographer. I live in Lowestoft and the location (Bridge Road, Oulton Broad) has hardly changed and this background has appeared in many of their photos. Another place used by the Coachworks for official photos was on the seafront at North Denes. Apparently they were always taken at the same time of day because the sun and light was agreeable to the photographer and the company. Shame Leyland closed them down.

Ray Stringer

19/11/13 – 16:18

Just to add my six penn’orth to the ECW-Roe discussion, in Duncan Roberts and John Senior’s book ‘Eastern Coach Works of Lowestoft – a retrospect’, mention is made of two senior members of C H Roe staff leaving Leeds for Lowestoft in 1936. William (Bill) Bramham was appointed General Manager of Eastern Counties’ Coach Factory just a few weeks prior to it becoming ECW, and Roe’s former Chief Estimator Ralph Sugden went with him. Mr Sugden was initially Assistant Stores Officer, but later became ECW’s Commercial Manager and Deputy General Manager. How much influence this had on ECW design at the time is not stated, but Mr Bramham had been with Roe since 1926, and Mr Sugden since 1924, so maybe this could explain some of the similarities between Roe and ECW products around this period. The book states that “Bramham is remembered as being a warm and considerate man, who made a point of walking around the whole factory one morning each week, and speaking to everyone”. (I remember being informed by several fitters some years ago that West Yorkshire’s Mr H.N.(Hector) Tuff did the very same thing each week at WY’s Central Works and Body Shop, whilst General Manager there. Sadly when he retired, that lovely gesture went with him).

Ray, I agree wholeheartedly that ECW should not have been allowed to close, especially given the
invaluable expertise of its staff and the excellent build quality of its coachwork. Even when Leyland was in charge, ECW maintained its reputation for good, sound products. If any proof was needed, one only has to consider the length of operational service given by the many ECW-bodied VRTs and Olympians operated in the UK.

Brendan Smith

19/11/13 – 17:58

…..and the same can also be said of Roe who went through a rough patch with early PRV metal frame bodies like the early Atlanteans. They came back to produce one of the best bodies ever (the PRV-Roe standard). However, at they end, the quality was acknowledged better than Park Royal. Indeed, SELNEC said that their best (built) Mancunians were the last (K reg) batch on 33’0″ Fleetlines. [This was strange as they should have been East Lancs bodies but, due to the fire, ELCB asked to be released from the contract. The contract was given to Park Royal (who had already built Mancunians) who had their own problems and sub-contracted them to Roe.]

David Oldfield

Rochdale Regent Vs

Lancashire in the fifties and sixties. All that variety! Well, that is perhaps what most enthusiasts will think, but as one who was there at the time, I can tell you that it was merely a variety of Leyland Titans. Of the 27 pre-1968 municipal bus fleets in Lancashire, all but one operated PD-series Titans, over half of the fleets being completely dominated by the model.

The one exception was Rochdale Corporation, whose post war double-deck intake consisted of 110 AEC’s and 52 Daimlers. Coincidentally, the AEC’s were equally divided between the Regent Mark III and Mark V models. This article is about the latter, which were definitely not typical examples of the Regent V.

More than half of the eventual total were contained in the first batch. 268 – 297 (NDK 968 – 997) were delivered in the spring of 1956. This was the largest single batch of buses ever bought by Rochdale Corporation; they were model D2RA6G, a variant unique to Rochdale. The 6G at the end denoted that they were fitted with Gardener 6LW engines, an option which was available for a short while in the mid-fifties. The engine wasn’t the only unusual feature, as this batch were also fitted with air operated preselector gearboxes of the type which had been fitted to the Regent III. This unit was by now nominally obscelete. Coincidentally, the only other operators of Gardener engined Regent V’s, Glasgow and Aberdeen, also used preselector gearboxes, although not the same unit.

The next batch, 298 – 307 (ODK 698-707) were delivered in December 1956. These were also type D2RA6G, but this batch had the semi-automatic gearbox (AEC called it “Monocontrol”) which had superseded the preselector gearbox on the Regent V model. Thus it can be seen that Rochdale Corporation was one of the first operators to specify semi-automatic gearboxes as a matter of policy, rather than experiment.

308 – 318 (RDK 408 – 418) were delivered in the autumn of 1957, and these introduced the D2RA model. This version had the AEC AV590 engine, coupled with the semi-automatic gearbox, although when new, 318 had a fully-automatic gearbox (automonocontrol.)

The final quartet came in the autumn of 1958. These were 319 – 322 (TDK 319 – 322) and were again model D2RA. These differed from the previous batch in having platform doors.

All of these 55 new vehicles had Weymann bodies (H33/28R or H33/28RD) of the elegant 4-bay design which was developed from the classic post-war Weymann design already familiar on the Regent III model. This design is sometimes referred to (incorrectly I believe) as the Aurora. The design was enhanced by Rochdale’s magnificent royal blue and cream “streamlined” livery, complete with a lack of external advertising.

Naturally the delivery of 55 new buses (about a third of the fleet) resulted in these buses taking over most of Rochdale’s busiest routes. The TDK batch, with their platform doors, were an obvious case of keeping up with the next-door neighbours. They took over Rochdale’s share of service 21 to Bury via Heywood, operating jointly with Bury Corporation’s Leyland Titan PD3’s which had doors! The ODK’s and RDK’s were used on the other long, out of town routes such as the 9 (Ashton-Under-Lyne) and 16 (Bacup). In particular, the RDK batch took over Rochdale’s share of the very busy joint service 17 to Manchester via Middleton. Surprisingly, these buses ruled the roost on the 17 for twelve years; apart from one peak hour working associated with the express service 8, 308 – 318 monopolised Rochdale’s four workings on this route day in and day out! As I lived in Middleton I saw these buses every day, they really summed up the Rochdale fleet for me!

The first change to affect the Regent V’s was the appearance of external advertising on Rochdale’s buses, and for a while it seemed that every Rochdale bus I saw was telling me that People love Players.

In 1961, 277 (NDK 977) was repainted in an experimental livery of cream with a single royal blue band at upper-deck floor level. A couple of other buses (of different types) were repainted in a similar scheme, but with a lighter shade of blue, and this scheme was initially adopted by the Corporation; new AEC Reliances 16-20 (3116 – 20 DK) were delivered in this scheme. However, it was soon decided to adopt the scheme worn by 277. Once this had been decided, the Regent V’s were, surprisingly, repainted in reverse numerical order, starting with 322 and working downwards.

In 1963, Rochdale’s first batch of Daimler Fleetlines (323 – 327: 6323-7 DK) were delivered. Not surprisingly they entered service on the 21, on which Bury Corporation was already using Leyland Atlanteans! This obviously displaced the TDK batch, which no longer had a natural home; one was used most days on Rochdale’s share of service 24 to Manchester via Chadderton, which was limited stop for part of its length. The others were often to be found on the Bacup route, and sometimes on the 19 to Bury via Jericho.

During the 1960’s Rochdale bought a number of small batches of buses. By another coincidence, these consisted of 22 single-deckers, used for one man operation, and 22 double-deckers. The latter were all Daimler Fleetlines, and they displaced the Regent V’s from some other busy routes.
At some point during the sixties, 307(ODK 707) had its Gardner engine replaced by a non-standard AEC engine which had, I believe, been removed from a withdrawn Regent III.

In 1969, Rochdale’s buses were taken over by Selnec PTE. The first noticeable change was to the fleet numbers. I was surprised to find that the PTE’s new system did not take account of the different types of bus, but rather their origin; all of the ex-Rochdale double-deckers had 5900 added to their fleet numbers, so that the Regents became 6168 – 6222. Eventually the Mark V’s were repainted in Selnec’s white and orange livery, 6204 – 6 and 6215 being among the first recipients.

The next change resulted from the renumbering of Selnec’s routes into a common series, at the beginning of 1973. Rochdale’s stage services were numbered in the series 440 – 471, with special services (schools, works and hospital) from 876 to 894. Since Rochdale’s buses had single-track service number blinds, new blinds were fitted to these buses. Unfortunately the new blinds were smaller than the Corporation blinds they replaced, and the glass screens were masked down along the top and one side, giving a very unfortunate appearance. At the same time, Selnec replaced the destination blinds with new blinds which again were smaller than the old blinds, and again a lop sided look was adopted.

In the period 1970 – 1972 I spent many a Saturday afternoon riding on Rochdale’s Regents and Reliances. As with several other Pennine towns, Rochdale had several routes which took on a fairly rural outlook towards their outer ends. I developed several favourites, in particular 6168,6184 and 6202, which had superb Gardner engine sounds, coupled with the melodic contralto voice of the epicyclic gearboxes. Rochdale’s Regent V’s did not have that two-tone whine so typical of Regent V’s with the usual manual gearbox.

The first withdrawals of the type were of 6194 and 6199 early in 1973. 6187 became a driver training vehicle at this time. Regent V’s continued to be taken out of service in ones and twos, but it wasn’t until 1975 that withdrawals started in earnest, by which time many of the fleet had served for nineteen years.
One day in early 1975, I was amazed to see one of Rochdale’s Regent V’s working from Oldham Depot. At least four examples, 6178, 6184,6204 and 6216 were transferred to Oldham as a stop gap measure. Two months later, “Buses” reported that the first two of these, together with 6206, were working from the former Manchester Corporation Depot at Hyde Road. However, these vehicles were soon withdrawn, along with many of their sisters in Rochdale. One example, 6181 ended its career in spectacular manner by hitting the low bridge near Rochdale Station.

In 1975 my employers suffered financial difficulty and this, to cut a long story short, resulted in me joining the staff of what was now Greater Manchester Transport’s Rochdale Depot as a conductor. By this time there were only twenty Regent V’s in service at Rochdale, and one of these, my old favourite 6168, was withdrawn during my first week, before I had a chance to work on it.
Rochdale did not have the usual system of some buses working all day, and others just in the peak hours. In Rochdale in the mid-seventies, buses which had stayed in service during the daytime off-peak returned to the depot after the evening peak, and buses which had worked the morning and afternoon peak hours stayed out in the evenings. This resulted in older buses (i.e. Regent V’s) working until late at night.

On Saturdays there were no peak hours in the same way. One particularly interesting result of this was on service 24 to Manchester via Chadderton; if one Fleetline had stayed on the service for the full nine round trips on Saturday, it would have run out of fuel. Accordingly, at 1800 hours this bus changed places with a Regent which had spent the day on the very short service 442 to Spotland. Thus, the 24 was operated by Fleetlines all week except for the last three trips on Saturday evening which were operated by a Regent V! Not surprisingly, most of the crews hated this arrangement, but I couldn’t wait for my turn!

By now the RDK batch had lost its monopoly of service 17 workings, and any type of bus could appear on the route. On Monday – Friday evenings, the 1730,1930 and 2130 departures from Rochdale were regularly operated by a Regent V. However the 1910 and 2110 journeys were normally worked by a Selnec/GMT standard Fleetline, and the other two Rochdale buses on the route were older Fleetlines. I never understood this, but it happened regularly during my time on the Rochdale buses.

While working on the buses is a dream come true for enthusiasts, it also had its frustrations; very often I would see Regents working the same duties day after day, but on the day I was on that duty it would often turn out to be a Fleetline!!
During my training period I conducted several Regents under supervision. Usually my instructor watched the platform while I collected the fares. On my first “solo” trip on a Regent V I was busy collecting fares when I suddenly realised that the bus was standing still; the driver was waiting at a stop for me to ring the bell! All of the Regent V’s had strip bells, which certainly made life easier for the conductor, and on a nice day what could be better than watching the world go by from the open platform!

In Rochdale, unlike some other locations, drivers and conductors were paired off together permanently, and my mate hated the “back loaders” with a passion, especially the “pedal buses”, ie the NDK batch with their preselector gearboxes. He would find any excuse to send a Regent into the garage with any minor defect, and on one or two occasions he lit a match and held it under a fuse, the result being a chance to ask for a changeover bus.

After five months I took the opportunity to change my mate, to work with a driver who was also an enthusiast. However, on the day I should have started to work with my new driver, I was called into the driving school. After a fortnight on en ex-Bolton PD2 (now in the Manchester museum of transport,) I passed the test. A few days later, as part of my “all types training”, I had a spell, with an instructor, on 6196. Naturally this was a thrill, after all the anticipation, I was finally driving a preselector Regent. We drove along the Bacup route, then, to my surprise, we continued over the moors to Burnley. The journey back, with my fellow trainee at the wheel, was an anti-climax!

There was a few weeks’ pause before I got a place on the drivers’ rota, and during this period it was permitted for the driver and conductor to exchange places. The first time I drove a Regent on service 17, I got stuck behind a very slow moving van towing another van. Every time I got in front, the vans would overtake me at the next bus stop. On arrival at Rochdale, seven minutes late, a stern-faced inspector told me I would have to do better when I went driving full time.

By the time I was driving, there were only 12 Regent V’s in service, including five of the NDK’s. The preselector gearbox was a fascinating feature, I couldn’t get enough. In the cab, the Regents sounded very different; the gearbox sound was inaudible, and you just had the sound of the engine; on the Gardner versions this was really music to my ears. There was one poor Regent V to me, 6180, which ironically is the sole member of the NDK batch to be preserved (as Rochdale 280). The problem was that when you took your foot off the accelerator, the engine continued to rev for a few seconds, which made it difficult to change gear without a jerk. On the other hand, 6172 was magnificent, light steering, perfect gearchange and a lively performance too.
I remember one late turn which started on the cross-town service 440 (Turf Hill – Syke.) On one occasion I had 6172 and thoroughly enjoyed myself. After the meal break, we had two trips to Manchester on service 24. The Fleetline on this service was faulty (honestly) and so I asked for a changeover for the 2200 departure. A fitter arrived from the garage with 6172, grinning from ear to ear at the thought of punishing me for requesting a changeover at that late hour. Needless to say I had a whale of a time on that final trip, although my conductor was not impressed!

Some drivers complained about heavy steering on the Regents, but this was certainly no worse than a fully loaded Fleetline. The survivors were gradually withdrawn, and all too soon 6198 was the last survivor; it was finally withdrawn in the spring of 1977, a mere 21 years old. Only three months later, I left Rochdale to take up my dream job, driving Crosville Bristols in North Wales.
Two examples of the breed survive in preservation, both restored to the original streamlined livery, despite having been in the mainly cream livery for most of their lives. Thus they can be seen again in their former glory, to remind us of the unique fleet of buses which served the town of Rochdale in years gone by.

Donald McKeown
12/2013

06/12/13 – 11:55

Donald’s very interesting piece raises memories and a number of comments. The first Regent Vs appeared on the #9 from Rochdale to Ashton a few short months before we moved from the bottom of Oldham Rd., Ashton to Stockport so I had little chance to ride on them when new. They looked very modern, imposing and extremely smart in Rochdale’s blue and cream.
The #9 had been well served by Rochdale’s Regent IIIs which were totally different in every visual and aural respect to the Oldham and Ashton Leylands and Crossleys which were the other regular offerings on the route, not to mention the Rochdale and Oldham Daimlers which were rarer performers and the Ashton Guys (some austerity in original form, some rebodied) which operated the short workings to Hathershaw. If there was a route in the North West to offer a variety beyond the Leyland PD dominance, this was it. Throw in the mix of body builders the chassis carried in 1956 – Leyland, Crossley, Weymann, Roe, MCW, East Lancs and Massey – and there was a good cross section of British bus manufacture on just one route.
AECs were not exactly rare with North West operators, just less common compared with the preponderance of Leylands – the purchase of which most Councils saw as supporting local industry. North Western (single deck), Mayne (double deck), Salford (double deck), Leigh (double deck), Bury (double deck), Chester (single deck), St Helens (single and double deck), Liverpool (double deck) and, of course, that other Rochdale operator, Yelloway.
Just what set Rochdale Council so firmly against Leyland post war I’ve never found out. Only 47 Leylands were ordered prewar and one was inherited from Yelloway with the Manchester route. Even prewar there was a preponderance of orders for Dennis and Crossley. Presumably most of the Regent Vs received Gardner engines for commonality with the Daimlers in the fleet and for the engine’s undoubted power and reliability. Just why they couldn’t persuade AEC to fit the engine to the last deliveries is an interesting question.
The Regent Vs gave great service and were distinctive enough (though less so with the spray painted livery) to be a significant part of the character of Rochdale for many years and help make the town different to its neighbours.

Phil Blinkhorn

06/12/13 – 11:56

Donald. Thanks for your fly on the wall experience of these beautiful vehicles but, two points of correction and clarification.
The D2RA (as well as all other AEC engined heavies) had the AEC A218 engine (carried over from the Regent III). The AV590 was a different, new, wet liner engine which was fitted after 1959 to the series 2 versions – ie 2D2RA, 2D3RA etc. [See Regent V, Stewart J Brown, Ian Allan).]
The body was correctly called the Aurora. [See The Weymann Story Part 2, John A Senior, Venture Publications.]

David Oldfield

06/12/13 – 11:57

Thank you Donald for a most fascinating article about one of the most glorious of the numerous captivating and colourful Lancashire municipal fleets. In what I promise will be only a brief digression from the Mark V I’ll just say that my only working contact with Rochdale buses was when Samuel Ledgard bought five Mark 3s with east Lancashire bodies, GDK 401 – 405 (201 – 205). I drove them all, four only occasionally as they were at Leeds depot, but at Otley our GDK 401 which I took with joy whenever I could get my hands on it – majestic, comfortable, and very lively in a dignified way, and in a nice little touch Ledgard’s had left the gold fleet numbers in both saloons.

Here is a picture of a very happy me with GDK 401 returning to Otley from one of the local estates, having just crossed the River Wharfe bridge – oh, to do the same again today !!

Chris Youhill

09/12/13 – 09:19

Many thanks to Donald for his account of the Rochdale Regent Vs, which were always my favourite way of getting into Manchester, as I lived just a couple of miles south of him until 1968. In terms of vehicle policy I think of Rochdale as an honorary Yorkshire operator, counterbalancing Todmorden which was an honorary Lancashire one!
Just a couple of small points. Firstly, although David is correct in saying that the A218 was the standard engine in the D2RA, information displayed with 322 at the South Yorkshire Transport Museum says it has an A208. Was there ever such an engine, or is this an error? Secondly, I’m less convinced than John Senior that this style of body was ever officially called Aurora. The odd thing is that by the time of the 1954 Commercial Motor Show there were quite a lot of them in service in various places, and yet MCW were still promoting the original 1952 Aurora, a completely different design of which only one was ever built.

Peter Williamson

09/12/13 – 11:49

The original 9.6 litre engine fitted to the Regent III was the A208. Apparently it was found that some so fitted were tending to overheat when driven hard due to coolant not reaching the rearmost cylinder, so an external pipe was fitted to feed coolant to the back of the cylinder head, and this variant became the A218, becoming standard from around 1949. (This information is from Alan Townsin’s ‘Best of British Buses – Postwar Regents’)
By the time the Rochdale Mk. V’s were built they would have been fitted with the A218, but it’s possible that an older engine may have been fitted to the preserved one at some point.
There was also an A204 variant for the London RT, an A213 which I think had a different means of attaching the cylinder head and used mainly in goods chassis, and the A219 was a horizontal version of the A218 for the Regal IV.

John Stringer

09/12/13 – 11:53

A slight amendment to my previous comment. The very original AEC 9.6 litre engine was actually the A185 ‘pot cavity’ unit as used in the prewar (okay, actually early wartime) LT RT.

John Stringer

10/12/13 – 06:41

I was once told by a non-enthusiast friend (who had lived in Heywood for most of his life) that Rochdale ‘couldn’t buy Leylands’. I took this to mean that there had been, at some stage, a terminal ‘falling-out’. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

David Call

10/12/13 – 12:15

Whilst I know of instances of operators falling out with suppliers and the odd instance of suppliers refusing to supply (normally bad credit risk) operators, I know of no instance of Leyland Motors refusing to supply a municipal operator so any refusal is almost certain to be Rochdale’s.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/12/13 – 06:35

It often happens that people hear things and repeat them out of context, so that a one-time problem can be portrayed as a permanent prohibition. Postwar Rochdale had, for double-deckers, a policy of buying vehicles with fluid transmission. Until I checked, I had assumed that, in common with many other operators, they did this to facilitate retraining of tram drivers, but since it appears that Rochdale’s tramway system ceased in 1932 that cannot be the case. However, whatever the reason, it is a fact, and it means that for a while, Rochdale “couldn’t buy Leylands”, because Leylands came with only manual gearboxes.
Another possible explanation is a difference of opinion between the management and the Transport Committee. This was certainly true the other way round in Manchester, where the management “couldn’t buy AECs” because the Transport Committee said so!

Peter Williamson

11/12/13 – 08:49

Like Peter W (comment 09/12/13 – 09:19), I was under the impression that the “Aurora” was a one off design. Devon General 679 (NTT 679) was an AEC Regent III built in 1952. According to the first edition of “British Bus Fleets 8” published in 1964, “This vehicle was exhibited at the 1952 commercial motor show and has a prototype body given the type name ‘Aurora’ which did not go into production.”

Don McKeown

11/12/13 – 14:48

I had thought of mentioning Stuart Pilcher’s desire to obtain AECs when I listed the North West AEC operators.
Whatever the reason for Rochdale’s choice it made the Rochdale townscape distinctly different.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/12/13 – 14:49

The Aurora name was revived in 1957 for a forward entrance version of the Orion-style body, appearing as such on brochures and in adverts – I have a 1959 copy depicting a Halifax JOC PD3 which is described as an Auraora – but this name seemed to fizzle out after a couple of years or so.
The naming of MCW Group double deck products appears to be rather confusing, and I’ve never quite followed it. I have seen references to Orion-style bodies that were not actually called Orions, but I think Mk. IV’s. Though the Orion was introduced in 1952 as a super lightweight body, not all of them were lightweights.
In my very first bus book – Ian Allan’s ‘ABC of Buses and Coaches’ (1956)- there is an MCW official photo of my local operator Halifax JOC’s Daimler CVG6 DCP 851. This is described as having a ‘more substantial’ version of the Orion body. The actual unladen weight of these was 7tons 2cwt 3qtrs, which I reckon was still quite light for a CVG6 with epicyclic gearbox (the contemporary Roe teak framed ones weighed 7.17.2). The super-lightweight Orion was popular at first, many of them weighing in at only 6 tons odd, but then it appears that operators realised they had taken weight saving a little too far, and by the late 1950’s most seemed to be of the more substantial type.
MCW do not seem to me to have used the Orion name as much (if at all) from then on and I wonder if the name was intended only for the original lightweight version, and the Mk.IV was the eventually more common heavier one. Halifax’s forward entrance PD2’s of 1960-66 weighed around 8 tons, their 1959 PD3’s were 8.9.0, the 1960 Regent V 30-footers were 8.7.0, and the 1963 PD3’s were 8.6.0, so they had put a lot of weight on by then.
It also leads me to wonder what Mk’s I, II & III had been, and since there went on to be four-bay versions and other variants whether there were other ‘Mk.’ numbers we don’t know about. Does anyone have MCW brochures from the late 1950’s and 1960’s where they still use the Orion name, or is it a case of enthusiasts perpetuating the name wrongly until they believe they are right – rather like happened with the Leyland Farington ?

John Stringer

12/12/13 – 07:10

There were always two versions of the Orion body structure. What changed over the years is that the lightweight version varied in just how lightweight it was. Manchester tried both original super-lightweight and heavy versions in 1955-6, and then settled on a beefed-up lightweight from 1958. Salford, starting in 1962, only ever bought heavies.
Returning to Rochdale Regent Vs, I see that 280 is currently being advertised for sale. I am very surprised at this, as I always assumed it was owned by the Greater Manchester Museum of Transport rather than an individual.

Peter Williamson

12/12/13 – 12:22

Whilst Salford bought “heavy” Orions, they also bought far more forward entrance Auroras – if that name is correct. Just what was it about the construction of these – which were basically Orion lookalikes, that necessitated the extra thick upper deck pillars around the window over the door?

Phil Blinkhorn

13/12/13 – 07:13

Salford’s forward entrance PD2s had an extra wide bay in the body structure to accommodate the doors. The upper deck window in this bay is standard width, and therefore requires extra thick pillars to make it fit.
Apologies for incorrect information about 280. It is in fact one of the ODKs that is for sale. Owing to a typo the number isn’t given, and I assumed it was 280 because I didn’t know any other Gardners had survived.

Peter Williamson

13/12/13 – 07:23

Just for clarification, as far as I know it’s only 305 that’s for sale, not 280. 305 has never been very active on the preservation scene and what is left of the paintwork is still orange.
Also this is my opportunity to thank Donald for an excellent article which not only covered a neglected fleet but dealt with aspects which in themselves are not well documented even for the better-known fleets.

David Beilby

13/12/13 – 16:51

To avoid digressing too much from the subject I’m going to post a new topic regarding the MCW Aurora – the forward entrance version on the Any Other Thing page.

Phil Blinkhorn

18/12/13 – 06:27

John Stringer made mention of Met-Cam bodies known as Mark IVs and wonders if there were any other mark numbers.
In 1958/9 Nottingham City Transport took delivery of 44 Leyland PD2/40s with MCCW bodies. The 1958 deliveries fleet numbers 2 to 33 (2 ATO to 33 ATO) had steel framed bodies of four bay construction with an additional short bay at the back of the lower deck. These buses were of ‘Orion’ style but had flush interiors (i.e. there was no inset around the window, this was to be found on the outside). These bodies were known as Mark Vs. The 1959 deliveries, fleet numbers 34 to 45 (34 ATO to 45 ATO), had alloy frames and again were of ‘Orion’ style and of four bay construction, with the additional small bay on the lower deck and flush interiors as the 1958 deliveries. These bodies were known as Mark IVs.

Michael Elliott

02/01/14 – 17:54

This photo of Nottingham 27 shows very well the inset windows that Michael refers to, except at the front of the upper deck, where the windows are part of the frameless dome structure. However, the same does not seem to be true at the rear. http://tinyurl.com/qg7rgh7

Peter Williamson

31/01/14 – 09:00

It’s interesting that Peter says that Rochdale’s aversion to Leylands could be due to the lack of a fluid transmission variant – because Leyland could be persuaded to provide fluid transmission if the operator was important enough. London Transport being the obvious example, but there was the less well-known batch of pre-selector PD2s supplied to Leeds in the early 50s, possibly in an attempt to remain a third alternative to AEC and Daimler. It must have worked because from then on Leeds purchased a sizable fleet of semi-auto PD3s. Possibly Rochdale was seen as less important – it would be interesting to see if the tenders specified fluid transmission and whether Leyland submitted bids. There was an article in “Buses Extra” several years ago on my local operator, Stockport Corporation and the fact that so many tenders were received from different suppliers – had Stockport not been so wedded to the PD2/PD3 one can only conjecture what might have been.

Michael Keeley

01/02/14 – 17:47

Very informative article and comments; as a schoolboy in the late 50s and early 60s. I travelled to school from Heywood to Manchester via Manchester’s routes 4 or 63. I understand that route 4, Manchester Cannon Street to Bamford was technically a joint service between Manchester and Rochdale corporations but Rochdale never operated their vehicles on this route, does anyone know why? (How I would have enjoyed travelling on one of those immaculately turned out Regent Vs; especially in the original livery.)

John Davies

02/02/14 – 06:48

The #4 to Norden was a vestige of the original 1928 #1 express service from Gatley to Norden. A joint Rochdale/Manchester operation this may have been in name only as I have never seen any photographic evidence of a Rochdale vehicle at Gatley. After WW2 the route was definitely only operated by MCTD, probably as part of a balancing arrangement with Rochdale regarding input into routes 4, 8 and 17

Phil Blinkhorn

02/02/14 – 11:31

It is correct that MCTD service #4 was a joint service with Rochdale from the outset until the cessation of MCTD in 1969 but it was always operated by Manchester vehicles, latterly mainly by the Daimler CCG6’s foisted on Queens Rd garage.
It was a common feature of MCTD joint services for only one party to operate the service. Out of nearly 90 joint service routes in 1969 no less than 25 services were provided by only one operator though there were occasional instances of the other operator(s) fielding a bus as a revenue sharing ploy or to cover breakdowns etc.
I would have loved to have seen a Rochdale Regent making it’s way to Gatley via Kingsway or Wilmslow Rd had the 1920’s arrangements persisted.

Orla Nutting

North West Independents – Book Review

One of the recent titles from Venture Publications is Neville Mercer’s review of Independent Bus Operators in North West England, number 31 in the Super Prestige series. Although I have been based in Hampshire for over 40 years, my roots are in the North West, Bolton and Lancaster to be precise, so I had to buy a copy! I still have relatives in Lancashire and Westmorland. I visit several times a year – often as a day trip, which used to amaze some of my office colleagues.

Neville makes one very interesting omission – Lancashire United – for two reasons. In many sources, this firm is considered to be one of the biggest independents, if not the biggest in Lancashire. Neville begs to differ. His view is that – like West Riding – it was not a family concern or run under the control of a group of local residents (like Barton, for example), but based on a tramway undertaking which had its offices and directors in London, so it wasn’t truly independent. If this isn’t enough, Neville refers to the company history published not long ago. The ground’s been covered already. Why go over it again? I have to agree with him. Given the formula for this series, including any more thoughts than these few on LUT would have reduced the available space for some real gems.

Another feature of Neville’s review is that, like so many of us, he ignores the political meddlers and returns Warrington to Lancashire (from Cheshire) and Grange Over Sands and other parts of the Furness peninsula to Lancashire (from Cumbria). Carlisle is, of course, in Cumberland. Neville starts with a lengthy overview, followed by sections on Cumberland and Westmorland, Lancashire and Cheshire.

There is a section on each of the firms, about many of which a lot of us never knew, and others will have forgotten. Neville discusses the early pioneers and the involvement of the railways. There are references to Crosville, Cumberland and Ribble and their various acquisition strategies, but most of the book considers the likes of Blair & Palmer of Carlisle, Brownrigg of Egremont, Fishwick & Sons of Leyland, the Grange Motor and Cycle Company of Grange Over Sands, Robinson of Appleby, Sowerby of Gilsland and many more. Most photographs are in black and white, but there are several pages of views in colour. The Mountain Goat’s services are considered but, on balance, he decides to exclude it from closer scrutiny, with the sentiment that “it won’t starve”!
I found it to be a good read, and well worth the pain inflicted on my wallet!

Pete Davies

01/2014

19/02/14 – 06:26

Can you tell me where I could purchase a copy of the Independent Bus Operators in North West England.
My grandfather and Father ran a Coach Company in Ambleside

Sue Conway

Ps. My family name is Faulkner, and the coach company was Browns Coaches of Ambleside

19/02/14 – 13:50

I bought my copy directly from MDS Book Sales (128 Pikes Lane, Glossop, Derbyshire, SK13 8EH) for £18.75 plus P&P. The ISBN is 978190530 4561 and the Browns of Ambleside enterprise is mentioned under McGregor of Ambleside, on pages 78, 79 and 80 – two illustrations in black and white are on 78. There are no illustrations in the colour section.

Pete Davies

19/02/14 – 17:39

The posting about Browns of Ambleside reminded me that I had a photo of JM 8303 seen when new in Hull with a Barnaby body.

Not sure if this is in the North West book!

Mike Davies

20/02/14 – 06:37

No, Mike, it isn’t, but 7316 is!!!

Pete Davies

Guernsey Motors/Railways Fleet Number 77

A 1958 Albion Victor FT39KAN with a Reading FB35F body Registration 8226 – YFO 127

Guernsey fleet number 77, an Albion Victor followed a string of Albion’s supplied to Guernsey Motors and Guernsey Railway. Designed externally to look like coaches they are in fact buses, Licensed to carry 35 seated passengers and 7 standing, 27ft long and with a width limit of just 7ft (2.15mts) passengers were soon in “close contact” with their fellow travellers!

The engine a four cylinder Albion Diesel proved to be reliable, powerful for its size and economical (12 to 16mpg). The chassis has the benefit of being a straight ladder section design and as a result it was simple and strong. Ideal for Albion in that it was less costly to build and could be used as the basis for both bus and commercial vehicles. The rear wheels are driven by an overhead worm drive differential. The five speed constant mesh crash gear box is a delight, the gearstick is light to move, close at hand, precise and has a relatively short travel. The Victors were not fitted with overdrives and depending on rear axle ratios the top speed varies from 34 to 48 mph. 77 was originally fitted with a low ratio axle, 34mph, however during Brian Catchpoles ownership in the 1980’s and 90’s an ex Harrods van mid range axle was installed, 40mph! Magic! The KAN chassis as distinct to the earlier Victor AN chassis was given an up rated engine, brakes and road springs.

Red and White of Chepstow took over the Guernsey Railway in 1949 and Guernsey Motors in 1951. Red & White were associated with the Albion agents “Watts of Lydney” and henceforth Albion was the preferred supplier. A total of 39 Albion Victors were added to the fleet the last in 1958. The Albion Victor chassis was designed as a rugged and lightweight chassis aimed at UK mainland rural bus operations and the overseas market. The body was designed specifically by Mr. J.A. Davies, the Guernsey Railway Co. Managing Director. J.A.Davies had come from the Newbury & District Bus Company, a company owned by Red & White Mr J.A.Davies was impressed with the external appearance of their late 1930’s Duple bodied coaches.

Guernsey operated school, private hire, service, and island tour schedules and wished to imply to its travellers, tourists in particular that it operated a fleet of luxury coaches. With this in mind and J.A.Davies preference for the Duple style, the Guernsey body naturally followed the Duple Vista outline, but with bus instead of coach seats. This reduced the number of vehicles required and significantly improved the flexibility of the fleet. Interestingly the Duple Vista bodies J.A.Davies saw were essentially of pre-war design starting life in 1936.

The dual purpose Heaver body’s appearance hardly changed from 1950 to 1958. In 1956 Heavers stopped supplying the wooden framed composites bodies and changed to an all aluminium framed body designed by the British Aluminium Company, there were many minor changes but the most obvious was the loss of the inset windows and flared lower panels resulting in a completely flat side. In 1957 Heavers ceased trading and “Reading and Company” of Hilsea near Portsmouth started manufacturing the same design bodies for Guernsey, Readings continued to supply the same body until the last Albion had entered service in late 1958, However a similar style of body was constructed until 1973 on the Nimbus and Bedford J4 chassis the very last being made by Sparshatt’s of Southampton.

I purchased six Albion Victors from the company at the St Peter Port auction in 1980, five for friends and number 77 for myself. A challenging exercise, three friends came with me and enough batteries for one bus. The buses came back in threes, three by the roll on roll off Channel Islands Ferry and three as freight on the Commodore Clipper where they were stowed below decks and craned off in Portsmouth. 77 came on the roll on roll off service with the only set of batteries, the other two buses being” Tow Start Only”. Our arrival at Portsmouth in the dark involved driving 77 out of the ship, turning round and returning on ship to tow start the other two buses in reverse (We could only tow from the front of the buses ie nose to nose), not a popular move with Chanel Island Ferries. All was not over as I had purchased all the Albion spares from the company, these were in twenty five Jonny Walker boxes with the lids stuck down. Initially the customs officer’s eyes bulged with excitement, however some hours later we were “released” leaving a very disappointed Customs man on the quay side.

In 1981 I realised that owning three Victors (JMT 10 and NKO 953 Fuggles) and only having garage space for two was a disaster in the making and 77 was sold to Brian Catchpole. Brian obtained an early EN286 engine that had not been used, but required attention, he rebuilt the engine, re-panelled and re-painted the bus and looked after it until the turn of the century.

Finding empty space in my the garage enabled me to buy back 77 and use it for another five years, this included using it to transfer the wedding guests to and from the church when I got married. The arrival of a 1944 6X6 GMC truck put space at a premium and something had to go so the Albion passed on to Martin Willetts.

In two thousand and nine, I had regained a bus space in the garage and coincidently Martin wanted to sell the Albion! You have guessed it, I purchased the bus for the third time. A new ceiling, a rebuild of the rear mudguards the fitting of a new set of injectors, a new coat of paint, the reinstatement of the life guards and the original go faster stripes has put the bus back on the road again looking much as it did originally. The bus is now used on the occasional free bus service and to visit places of interest with friends and family.

For the purist 77 was supplied new in red and marked up as Guernsey Motors, it remained red for all it life but was moved from the “Motors” fleet to the “Guernsey Railways” fleet in the 1960’s. It now appears as a “Railways” bus.

The Guernsey Albion’s are a preservationists delight, virtually no wood to go rotten, only two steel panels to go rusty on the body, booking in at four tons ULW its relatively easy to work on, One person can easily take the cylinder off and change the engine if need be. Economical 14 to 15 mpg on long runs and 12 mpg n locals. Only 7ft wide but still carrying 35 passengers. Half drop windows, an art deco interior and almost pre-war body adds up to a very period bus with a unique appearance.

I could of course be biased having owned at one time or another.

1559	1937 ex The Grays, Guernsey
KCD 697	1949 ex St Dunstans and Hovis
6436	1950 Guernsey 36 a bus that was cut in half and converted to a breakdown vehicle
NKO 953	1950 ex Fuggles
6442	1954 Guernsey 52
804 FUF	1954 Ex Jersey Motor Transport 10 – J 15213
8227 – JPA 83V – (YFO 127)	1958 Guernsey 77

I was also fortunate in being able to “rescue” another six Guernsey Victors by purchasing and importing the buses on behalf of friends. They were all Guernsey Albion Victors.

UK Reg	Guernsey reg	Fleet no
DS 6468	6173	63
JPA 81V	4029	73
JPA 82V	4022	72
JPA 83V – YFO 127	8227	77
JPA 84V	8228	78
JPA 85V	8226	76
JPA 86V – 842 FUF	6768	66

You may ask what happened to JPA 83Vs Registration number and JPA 86V’s? My bus now YFO 127 was initially issued with JPA 83V and Brian Catchpole obtained the age related number, Noel Marshall did the same with 66.

In 1980 age related registration numbers were almost unheard of, and Surrey would only allocate suffix lettered registration numbers appropriate to the year of importation. The issue was further complicated in that I insisted the buses were issued with six digit reg. numbers to fit into the rear number plate box the modern seven digits were too long. I had to wait some three months for the JPA sequence to start. Eventually the Road Tax Office called to advise “Apply Now” we are issuing the JPA numbers. (No DVLA in those days)

Further history and Information on Guernsey and its buses can be found in two very comprehensive books “Guernsey Bus and Coach Fleet History” and “A History of Guernsey’s Buses, Coaches and Trams” both by John Carman.

Peter Davies

02/2014

09/02/14 – 08:15

My attention was caught by Peter Davies`s post of Guernsey Motors No 77 and I send you a few of my old slides from my first visit to the island in 1971 (flew by Vickers Viscount from East Midlands Airport).

A selection of views and I think among these are a good cross-section of the public transport on offer, I well remember being captivated by the retro charm of the island buses. and how they met the dimensional challenges of the island roads.

Rob Hancock

Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 4

Not read from the beginning click here

Part Four – Local Coach Operators

When I lived out in the middle of Cheshire and made monthly shopping trips to Manchester with my parents, the number 36 passed the garages of three coach operators as it travelled along the A56 through Altrincham and Sale. The first was the premises of Godfrey Abbott Motor Tours on Manchester Road in West Timperley, but that operator is outside the scope of the current article as the garage was technically in Altrincham. Mr Abbott cannot entirely be excluded, however, as he was a cousin to the Sykes family. Sykes was one of the earliest operators of char-a-banc excursions in Sale and expanded into local bus services during the General Strike of 1926. Its route from Halebarns to Manchester via Altrincham and Sale wilfully abstracted business from the Manchester Corporation tram (and later bus) routes along the A56, and also made a dent in the takings of the parallel commuter railway. Despite these considerations Sykes received licences from the new Traffic Commissioners and sold out to Manchester and North Western in 1934 for a princely sum.
The Sykes brothers continued to trade as coach operators, from their premises at the junction of Washway Road and Barwick Place, until 1954. In the post-war era they aimed the business very much down market, specialising in contract work (for schools, factories, construction sites, and cleaning firms) at rock bottom prices. Their low bids were enabled by a fleet of very tatty pre-war vehicles including AEC Regals (from Standerwick and PMT) and Tilling-Stevens B10As (from North Western) The chassis of the latter had been built in 1928 (although later fitted with 1935 bodies) and at least one survived until the end.
Meanwhile, cousin Godfrey had helped to hasten the end by setting up in business for himself in late 1946, and bidding for exactly the same kind of low-price work as his kindred. While the Sykes decided to call it a day in 1954, Godfrey Abbott went on to more glamorous ventures, operating extended tours in both the UK and Europe, initiating an express service from Manchester to Paris, and providing one of the first “ring and ride” minibus services in Britain (under contract to the pte). The business was eventually taken over by the pte’s Charterplan coaching division.

Godfrey Abbott had shown no interest in acquiring his cousins’ premises at Barwick Place, and the garage there was soon sold to another local coaching firm, Altrincham Coachways. The registered office of the business remained in Altrincham, but the site in Sale became the main depot, replacing the firm’s original very cramped premises close to its namesake railway station.

Altrincham Coachways

Norman Juckes began operations as a private hire and excursion operator in the early 1920s, and by 1929 was trading as Altrincham Coachways although the business remained a sole proprietorship until 1948 when the name was finally formalised as a limited company. The earliest recorded vehicles, both second-hand Albions, were acquired in 1929. By then Juckes was also operating a works service from Altrincham to Trafford Park and was awarded a licence for this by the Traffic Commissioners in January 1932. Other pre-war vehicles included a Leyland SKP Cub and an AEC Regal acquired from Standerwick. In 1939 the Trafford Park service was sold to Manchester Corporation.

The return of peace in 1945 resulted in a mad scramble for anything with wheels and among Altrincham Coachways “finds” were ADH 740, a Maudslay SF40 coach, and GMA 904, a utility-bodied Bedford. They were soon replaced by a veritable flood of new vehicles as Juckes sought to meet the post-war demand. In the two years 1947-48 Altrincham Coachways took delivery of seven Bedford OBs (most with Plaxton bodywork), a Plaxton bodied PS1 Tiger, three Plaxton bodied Commer Commandos, and six Crossley SD42s (three Santus, two Trans United, and one Burlingham). Two more Crossleys arrived in 1949 (one Santus, one Burlingham) along with another five bonneted Commers (three Santus, two Plaxton). The momentum continued in 1950-51 with many of the 1947-48 vehicles already being replaced by new stock such as Plaxton bodied Commer Avengers (NLG 762/763/945), the first Bedford SB for the company (Plaxton bodied NMB 848), and the first (and only) Altrincham Coachways Royal Tiger, NMA 1 with Plaxton Venturer bodywork.

Norman Juckes decided to retire in the summer of 1950 and sold the business to an upcoming coaching entrepreneur, Frank Ford. Ford’s modus operandi was to buy a coach company at a relatively low valuation, increase its efficiency, and then (after a few years) sell it on for a profit. It was immediately noticeable that more second-hand vehicles began to join the fleet. The only additions in 1951 were four fully-fronted PS1 Tigers with Duple bodywork, acquired from Hants & Sussex in July. In 1952 there was a new SB (OLG 54) and a new Atkinson Alpha (OMA 600), both , inevitably by now, with Plaxton bodywork while 1953 saw the arrival of three new Plaxton bodied Regal IVs (RMB 158/159/240). A more curious occurrence during 1953 was the sale of the four fully-fronted PS1s to Spencer of Oldham in exchange for three (pre-war!) TS8 Tigers with Harrington bodywork. All three TS8s were then withdrawn and scrapped at the end of the 1953 summer season.

Many of the more interesting members of the Altrincham Coachways fleet were eliminated in the spring of 1954 by the arrival of a batch of 10 Plaxton bodied Bedford SBGs, SMB 20-29, which received fleet numbers 1-10. A rarer beast was 14-seat Plaxton bodied Karrier 32A NXJ 858, acquired second-hand in April 1954. There were no new arrivals in 1955, but 1956 brought four more Bedford SBs (WMB 591, WTU 214/215, and XMB 550. The following year saw the purchase of another smaller coach, Bedford A4/Plaxton 29-seater YMA 950 which arrived in June 1957, but larger moves were already in progress. In March 1957 Ford had transferred four Plaxton bodied Bedford SBGs (MRV 400/500/600/700) from his Portsmouth based Triumph Coaches business to Barwick Place, supplanting native SBGs from the “SMB” batch which were sold. In November 1957 there was a sudden influx of five Plaxton bodied AEC Reliances (VUP 441-445) from Gardiner of Spennymoor (another Frank Ford company) which replaced all the remaining locally-purchased SBGs except for XMB 550. At the end of December the Karrier and the Bedford A4 were sold, meaning that the fleet consisted of Bedford SBGs XMB550 and MRV 400/500/700 (MRV 600 had already been re-sold) and the five Reliances.
Despite all of this frantic activity, presumably at the direction of accountants privy to Mr Ford’s plans, few suspected that the company was about to be sold. It came as something of a shock, therefore, when people in Sale and Altrincham discovered that Altrincham Coachways would pass into the ownership of the North Western Road Car Co at midnight on the 31st of January 1958. No vehicles were included in the deal and North Western vehicles were used to meet short-term commitments until new deliveries could be diverted to Barwick Place in the shape of Burlingham Seagulls, Harrington Wayfarer IVs, and Weymann Fanfares. These were later joined (briefly) by Reliances with Willowbrook Viking bodywork from the RDB 827-831 batch, surely the most attractive bodies for underfloor engined coaches ever produced by the Loughborough firm.
Another surprise was afoot. In 1961 a batch of eight Bedford SBs with Duple Super Vega bodywork (UDB 101-108) was delivered in full Altrincham Coachways livery. Only the Stockport registrations gave the game away. They replaced all of the heavyweights except for two Seagulls which lingered on until the arrival of three further SBs in 1964, on this occasion with Bella Vega bodywork (AJA 987-989B). In 1966 two of the 1961 Bedfords were transferred to North Western’s other coaching subsidiary, Melba Motors of Reddish, and their spaces in the Barwick Place premises were taken by two Bedford VAL14s with Duple Vega Major bodywork (FJA 990/991D). The two VALs were to be short-lived tenants, as in 1967 North Western decided to merge its two coaching subsidiaries into the parent business. The remaining 1961 Super Vegas were transferred into the main fleet while the Bella Vegas and the two VAL14s were sold.

Godfrey Abbott bought the Altrincham Coachways name and kept the separate limited company (and operator’s licence) for several years although most of the vehicles which continued to carry the company’s legal lettering were elderly double-decker buses used on schools contracts. The few which were repainted carried “Godfrey Abbott Group” fleetnames and Abbott’s new livery of ghastly green despite what the legal lettering said. The premises at Barwick Place were never used by coaches again, and for many years the old Sykes garage traded as a “Charlie Brown’s Auto Centre”, offering MOTs and replacement tyres to local car owners. Frank Ford went on to bigger things, running Plaxton for many years (he had always liked their bodywork) before joining with George Hughes to buy control of Plaxton’s great rival, Duple, in 1970. He died in 1976.

Pride of Sale

Pride of Sale Motor Tours, tenant of the third coach garage passed along the A56, was founded by Frank Brazendale in the 1920s, although details of the early fleet have, as they say, proven elusive. In 1931 the firm applied for excursions and tours from Sale, a seasonal “period return” express service to Blackpool from a dozen or more local pick-up points (most of them newsagents), and a network of works services from the Sale area to Broadheath, Salford Docks, and Trafford Park. The works services were not granted, the Traffic Commissioners preferring the rival applications from Manchester Corporation. The only pre-war vehicle showing in my records is FV 1840, an AEC 0642 Regal 4 acquired from Standerwick in August 1938. It was sold on to Worth of Enstone in 1942.

Details of vehicles from the early post-war period are equally scarce, so if anybody can fill in the gaps please step forward. New deliveries in 1947 included JTU 244 (a Maudslay Marathon III with Duple FC37F bodywork) and JTU 381 (a Bedford OB/SMT “Vista lookalike”). The fully-fronted Marathon lasted until 1959 and I can remember seeing it one Sunday morning at Pickmere Lake. There is then apparently a missing sheet in the local PSV Circle Editor’s notes which would have covered the period up to 1956, and the only other vehicle I’ve managed to uncover from this period, second-hand Commer Avenger I/Plaxton EBA 268, had already gone by the time I moved to Sale.

From 1956 onwards the majority of the fleet was always made up of Bedfords with Duple bodywork, although there were also Commers (Avenger III/Plaxton YMA 460 of 1957 and Avenger IV/Duple 785 WLG of 1962) and a pair of Bedford SBs with Yeates Europa bodywork (731 CMA/554 FMB of 1958/59). Notable among the Bedford/Duple combinations were 730 CMA, a C4Z2/Super Vista 29-seater delivered in 1958, and the company’s first 36 ft vehicle, 129 TU, a VAL14/Duple Vega Major which arrived in 1963. The other arrival in that year was even more interesting, being a “multiply pre-owned” Royal Tiger with Harrington Wayfarer bodywork, LFD 552, which turned up in May. This vehicle was never repainted into Pride of Sale’s green and cream livery and was returned to the dealer from whence it came at the end of the summer season. Its replacement was 4950 NA, an additional SB/Duple, acquired fourth-hand from Roberts of Crewe in October.

One of the more interesting aspects of the Pride of Sale operation came to an end in 1963 as a result of events in faraway Wiltshire. From the early 1950s onwards vehicles belonging to Silver Star Motor Services of Porton Down, operating their “military leave” express service from Salisbury Plain to Manchester, had spent the weekend in the care of Pride of Sale and operated “on hire” on local excursion work and “doubly on hire” to North Western â€“ primarily on the Scarborough services. Silver Star coaches from Tiger Cub/Harringtons MMR 552/553 onwards even carried the words “On hire to Pride of Sale” on their destination blinds for their weekend holidays in sunny Manchester. This arrangement came to an end when Silver Star was swallowed up by Wilts & Dorset.

As the decade wore on the Bedford/Duple theme continued to dominate, although two Bella Vegas (GTU 433/434C) replaced two of the older Super Vegas in 1965, and further Super Vegas were replaced by a pair of VAM14s (NTU 219D/RLG 733D) in 1966. The first VAL14 was replaced by a new one with Duple Viceroy bodywork (UMA 615E) in March 1967, and two months later a VAM14 with similar Viceroy bodywork (UTU 427E) continued the cull of the Super Vegas. Meanwhile the solitary Super Vista had been sold in June 1966, leaving Pride of Sale with no coaches with fewer than 41 seats. This situation was rectified in April 1968 by the arrival of DLG 651F, a Bedford VAS1 with 29-seat Plaxton bodywork. The same month brought another Viceroy bodied VAL in the shape of DLG 652F. This was of the more powerful VAL70 type and was followed in March 1969 by identical machine JMB 399G.

The arrival of 129 TU in 1963 had emphasised the inadequacy of the company’s premises at 147 Cross Street, which included a booking office and a small garage. The only way to get a 36 ft long vehicle into it was by halting traffic in both directions on the busy A56 trunk road and reversing it in. Once inside there was no room left for a second vehicle. The operator’s open parking yard just off Glebelands Road was no better, and a larger base was desperately sought. This materialised in 1965 when a lease was taken out on a piece of land to the rear of the Crossford Garage petrol station â€“ as the name suggests, within stone-throwing distance of the River Mersey and Sale’s northern boundary. Two flat-pack buildings were quickly assembled on the western part of the site (providing room for five vehicles) and the open yard on the eastern half could hold a further seven or eight. The new base was still clearly visible from the A56 and the line-up of Viceroy variants in the yard made an interesting sight if compared to the relatively dumpy Super Vegas of only a few years previously.
At the end of the decade the Brazendale family decided to sell up and Pride of Sale followed Altrincham Coachways into the hungry maw of Godfrey Abbott. The legal lettering remained for a while and Abbott kept the depot behind Crossford Garage to supplement his own relatively cramped garage and yard in West Timperley.

Lingley’s Saleaway

When I moved to Sale I rapidly discovered that there was another coach operator in the town, one whose depot had not been visible from the top deck of a number 36 bus. This was Lingley’s Saleaway Touring Co Ltd, which had a yard on Hope Road, adjacent to the Queens Hotel and Sale Station. The business had two different strands in its early history, later joined by a third strand of even more convoluted ancestry. The Notices and Proceedings of the North West Traffic Commissioners show two separate operators at the time of Road Service Licence hearings in 1931. John James Bennett of 22 Bangor Street, Hulme, Manchester (trading as “Saleaway Touring Co”) was successful in obtaining Excursions and Tours from the Sale area, while Mr AE Lingley of Stretford applied for E&T from his home town. At some undetected point the two operators merged their interests, although Mr Bennett seems to have left by the end of the 1930s when the business was being run by AE Lingley and his son Bill.
Until 1946 all vehicles operated were second-hand and included a petrol-engined Regal (from Standerwick|), a normal control AJS, five Leyland Tigers, and a Bedford WTB. There may well have been others unnoticed by the enthusiast community. In the post-war era this purchasing policy was reversed and almost all vehicles were brand new. The first to arrive, in November 1946, was Santus bodied Guy Arab III JLG 970, followed by a Plaxton bodied Bedford OB (CDB 322) in June 1947, and a Santus bodied PS1/1 Tiger (JMB 637) two months later. In January 1949 Lingley’s became one of the first operators of a new Commer Avenger when Plaxton bodied KTU 333 was delivered, and in March of the same year added two new Crossley SD42s with Bellhouse Hartwell bodywork (LLG 590/591). A second Plaxton bodied Avenger (LTU 836) joined the fleet in October while a third (NLG 762) came from Altrincham Coachways in August 1951 when less than twelve months old. Another new example arrived in the same month as OLG 468.

In July 1954 Lingley’s tried an Avenger II in the form of Plaxton bodied TLG 800. It was soon followed by two of the TS3 powered Avenger III model, TMB 555 in October 1954 and VLG 769 in June 1955. Both had Plaxton Venturer bodywork and all three of these Avengers were still in use when I first moved to Sale, the latter two giving me a taste for the sound of a two-stroke engine. Lingley’s were apparently less impressed as no more were ordered and the next deliveries were both Plaxton bodied Bedfords, Leyland-powered SB8 666 CMA in April 1958, and Bedford-powered SB1 444 HTU in October 1959.

Meanwhile, the Lingley’s had doubled the size of their business by acquiring Stretford Motors Ltd, based at The Old Cock garage in Stretford. As detailed elsewhere on this website, the business had originally been a partnership of Lancashire Motor Traders’ supremo Joseph Whitehead and his brother-in-law Albert Warburton â€“ proprietor of The Old Cock garage. In the late 1930s it was sold to TH Parker of Hollinwood near Oldham (and who traded there as Blue Bird Motors), and then in 1953 resold to Johnston Brothers of Middleton. It kept its separate identity (and operator’s licence) throughout the changes in ownership and in 1957 was sold yet again, to the Lingley family. The registered office of Lingley’s Saleaway Touring Co was then moved to Stretford Motors’ address, mainly because it offered a better environment than the rather filthy and squalid environs of the Hope Road premises. The vehicles, however, remained amid the grime and Stretford Motors’ coaches were also frequently to be found there while undergoing maintenance.

Lingley’s tried a Plaxton bodied Thames Trader in May 1960 (1 MMA) but returned to Bedford for an SB5/Plaxton Embassy II (241 YMB) in March 1963. The company’s first 36 ft vehicle, VAL14 BMB 199B, arrived in April 1964 and signalled a switch to Duple bodywork. This was confirmed by the arrival of SB5/Bella Vega GTU 765C in February 1965 and Ford R226/Mariner RTU 962D in June 1966, but in the following two years Lingley’s returned to Plaxton for the bodywork on VAM70 YMB 374F and their first ever Bristol, LHL6L (Leyland engined) LLG 340G.

By 1971 the Lingley’s fleet had been reduced to the three newest vehicles (the R226, the VAM70, and the Bristol) while the associated Stretford Motors fleet was also down to three (an SB/Bella Vega bought new in 1964, a second-hand VAL, and a second-hand VAM). It soon became apparent that the Lingley family were looking to sell and Jacksons of Altrincham appeared to show the greatest interest. At the last moment Godfrey Abbott stepped in and added the Lingley businesses to his own – he now had a virtual monopoly of coaching activity in Sale although this would soon be challenged by new start-ups. Eventually, of course, the Godfrey Abbott Group would itself be taken over, though few could have predicted that its buyer would be the PTE.

Acknowledgements

Much of the information on the vehicles of local coach operators came from unpublished PSV Circle records, kindly provided by John Kaye. Most of the other research was done in the Archive of the Greater Manchester Transport Society and my thanks go to archivist George Turnbull for his assistance and forbearance.

Neville Mercer
04/14

16/03/15 – 08:34

Fascinating reading regarding Sale area coach operators. Altrincham Coachways was owned at least partly prior to Sale to North Western by a Frank Ford who had let’s say an interest in many coach operators in the 50s such as Roberts of Crewe who were also associated with Florence and a Grange? From Morecambe. I believe he was also connected with Duple. Somewhere I have a box of old documents from Fieldsend Coaches with some interesting correspondence regarding their empire in the 50s which included Shearings when they were based in Oldham. There were very many wheelings and dealings back then and I only wish I had made notes of the many conversations I had with Jim Hackett part owner of Fieldsends regarding these when I worked with him in the late seventies and early eighties.

Tim Presley

23/06/15 – 09:52

Hope you may find these old pics interesting to your members, link to Preston Digital Archive Flickr site page
Coaches shown are “MRV 600” and “YMA 950” in August 1960 on Blackpool Road in Ashton-on-Ribble, Preston, Lancashire.

Phil Sullivan

26/04/17 – 07:35

Pride of Sale Coaches 147 Cross St Sale demolished 2017. Only just found site brilliant, I have lots of memories of all local operators in sale but only one photo the day after we picked it up from Duple.

Fred Brazendale

04/03/18 – 09:53

I wanted to see if there was any trace on the internet about Lingleys as I remember their coaches picking up from shops near where I lived as a boy in Hulme during the 1950’s.
It was really interesting to read all the comments in the old stream. The thing I recall most is that the Lingleys coaches I saw were sky blue and silver. Am I correct or is that a mistake?
Some people are talking about pink?

David Doolin

Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 3

Not read from the beginning click here

Part 3 – Express Services

The A56 trunk road entered the Borough of Sale from the north at Crossford Bridge, where the River Mersey marked the boundary with Stretford (and Cheshire’s boundary with Lancashire), and was known as Chester Road until the junction with Dane Road. It then became Cross Street up to the School Road/Ashton Lane junction and finally Washway Road all the way south to the Altrincham boundary. It was an extremely busy road back in the 1960s for a variety of reasons. Firstly there was the “traditional” traffic which had used the route as the quickest way from Manchester to Chester, (and then on to North Wales) since Roman times. Secondly there was the extra traffic generated by new housing estates in both Sale and Altrincham, and thirdly there was the opening of the Cheshire section of the M6 motorway. In the decade and a half before the creation of the M56, the already congested A56 became the main link between Manchester and the original southern section of the M6 (which then ended at the A449 to the north of Wolverhampton).

The road congestion had its brighter side for a young bus enthusiast. All kinds of exotic long-distance coaches could be found amid the traffic, most of them moving slowly enough for legal lettering to be read. A fair number were operating on the many express services which passed through the borough. The most frequent of these was the X97 version of the Tyne-Tees-Mersey pool. A few journeys on this service reached Newcastle, but most of the vehicles ran from Leeds to Liverpool via Huddersfield, Oldham, Manchester, Sale, Altrincham, and Warrington. The X97 ran every two hours, alternating with the X99 (via Eccles in lieu of Sale and Altrincham) to provide an hourly frequency from Leeds to Manchester and Liverpool. At one time the workings via Eccles had been operated by Lancashire United and those via Altrincham by North Western, to appease the local licensing authorities in those towns, but by the 1960s LUT and North Western coaches were to be found on the X97 variant in equal quantities.

North Western’s main contribution to the X97 came in the form of “Black Top” Willowbrook dual-purpose vehicles built on both Reliance and Tiger Cub chassis. Towards the end of the 1960s the Reliance coaches with Weymann Fanfare bodywork which had been the regulars on the few through journeys to Newcastle were replaced on these duties by 36 ft Leopards with Alexander Y-type bodywork. LUT used a mix of all its underfloor engined dual-purpose fleet, including examples bodied by Burlingham, Duple (Midland) Plaxton, and Northern Counties (the latter were often described as the only coaches built by NCME in the post-war era, but they looked like DPs to me!).

The LUT/NWRCC hegemony over the Manchester-Liverpool end of the X97 was occasionally disturbed by interloping vehicles from the more distant members of the Tyne-Tees-Mersey pool. A West Yorkshire vehicle (usually a Bristol LS – the half-cabs never seemed to get further than Lower Mosley Street) might be seen once a month but they were never common. Between 1962 and the end of the decade I only ever saw one Northern General coach working the X97 through Sale (a rather nice Reliance/Harrington Cavalier in 1965) and United were rare at Lower Mosley Street and unknown in Sale and Altrincham. One vehicle which did pass through on an X97 in the summer of 1966 was a Durham District Services Bristol LS, carrying dual stickers which proclaimed it to be “On hire to United Automobile Services” and “On hire to North Western”

The London Services

The majority of North Western’s express services from Manchester to London also passed through Sale. Until 1960 North Western’s express routes had not been given service numbers (although vehicles capable of displaying them showed any number used by a joint operator). In the 1960 numbering scheme the assorted Manchester to London services were all given the number X5, but with a letter suffix to indicate their precise route. The suffix letters were identical to those allocated by Midland Red to the routes as a (largely theoretical) joint operator which helped to avoid confusion between the two systems when bookings were being made or the spoils divided. The five variants running through Sale were the X5L (the traditional daytime service via the Potteries and Birmingham), the X5M (the overnight equivalent of the X5L), the X5N (a faster night service which omitted Birmingham), the X5P (a short working from Birmingham to Manchester and the only one of the services where Midland Red contributed a vehicle), and the twice-daily X5Z (the quickest of them all, operating non-stop from the Tabley interchange on the M6 – six miles south of Altrincham to Mill Hill in north London, except for a brief refreshment/toilet break halt at the Blue Boar).

All the variants of the X5 used North Western’s newest coaches. When I first moved to Sale this meant VDB 907-916, the 36 ft Leyland Leopards with Alexander Z-type bodies known inside the company as “stretched Highlanders” – a term which always made me think of William Wallace in the hands of the King’s torturers. The original “Highlanders” (RDB 832-851 of 1961) had been Reliances with the more usual 30 ft version of the Z-type body. The ten stretched Highlanders remained unique as 1963’s express service Leopards carried the new (and very stylish) Y-type body which became North Western’s standard coach until the end of the decade. Despite what you might read in the PSV Circle fleet history of North Western (not one of their better efforts!) the company referred to the Y-types as “Travelmasters” and not “Highlanders”.

Midland Red’s token presence on the X5P arrived in the Manchester area at lunchtime and any hopes of exotic home-made C5 coaches were inevitably dashed by the sight of a Willowbrook bodied Leopard DP or one of the Duple Commander coaches delivered in 1965. It was almost as if BMMO worried about North Western stealing its advanced technology while the vehicle was on its lunchtime layover. I did once see an old S15 on the X5P, so presumably the technology on that type had already been declassified.

The Coastal Services

While Midland Red was categorised as a joint operator on the express runs to London, the express services from Manchester to the northern half of Wales were licensed solely to North Western, despite running in Crosville territory for the vast majority of their mileage. This was, in a sense, Crosville’s own fault. When the services had begun in the late 1920s Crosville had lobbied for local authorities in North Wales to deny licences to incoming operators. As a result North Western had operated its expresses as “period returns”, selling seats only at the Manchester end. The company had known that Crosville would object to any other arrangement (even though the Taylors’ company had made no attempt to operate its own expresses to Manchester), and when road service licensing began in 1931 North Western merely sought licences to preserve the status quo. As a result no revenue was collected in Crosville territory and no pressure could be applied under the “Combine” agreement for a share of the service or the revenue. In later years Crosville agreed to a relaxation of the uni-directional restrictions on the routes as they provided a useful link to the North Western/Ribble hub at Lower Mosley Street, and a commission on a ticket sale was better than nothing.

Off-season the North Wales services were maintained by a solitary journey from Manchester to Llandudno on the X24, but in the summer peak months the menu increased to include the X3 from Manchester to Barmouth, the X4 to Aberystwyth, the X34 (a variant of the X24 which ran via Prestatyn), the X44 (to Bangor), and the X74 (to Pwllheli). On a summer Saturday in the 1960s the seven “service” coaches allocated to these routes (usually Reliances with Harrington Wayfarer IV or Weymann Fanfare bodywork in 1962, Y-type Leopards by 1969) might be supplemented by up to three times that number of “hired in” coaches, most from Manchester area firms but with a sprinkling of names from further afield such as Niddrie of Middlewich and Bostock of Congleton. Duple and Plaxton bodied Bedfords predominated, but they came in a pleasing variety of liveries and passed through in waves at set hours of the day â€“ unless the terrible traffic congestion in North Wales at that time had forced a reassessment of the return schedule!

One other North Western coastal express passed through Sale, in this case travelling in the opposite direction to the North Wales cluster. The X65 started in Northwich, passing through Altrincham, Sale, and Manchester on its way to Scarborough. Northwich depot only had three coaches (the service coach on this route in 1962 was either an elderly “KDB” Fanfare or a newer but more spartan “Black Top”) so at times of peak demand this route could also offer some interesting hires. The most numerous seemed to be Ford/Thames Traders with Plaxton bodywork belonging to Les Gleave’s Crewe-based subsidiary Roberts Coaches, but an occasional Salopia Bedford SB3 could be seen despite the “dead” mileage from Whitchurch to Northwich. From closer to home, Jacksons of Altrincham might also provide duplicates from their home town eastwards. Interestingly, Altrincham Coachways (a North Western subsidiary since 1958) never did, perhaps confirming the story that their general manager frowned on lending vehicles to the parent company as “they always come back filthy and with something wrong!”

Surprisingly, perhaps, there was never a North Western express service from Sale to Blackpool. This discrepancy is accounted for by the fact that the licence went to an incumbent operator, Pride of Sale Motor Services. This company will be dealt with in Part Four. One Blackpool service did pass through Sale but was not allowed to do business. This was the X36, which was shown in the North Western timetables of the 1960s as a single service from Sharston, the Wythenshawe estate, Timperley, Altrincham, and Urmston, to Blackpool. In reality it was worked as three separate services, one from Sharston and Wythenshawe (a licence acquired from Mayfair Travel in the late 1950s), another from Timperley and Altrincham, and a third from Urmston. The Sharston departure could often be sighted scuttling through Sale along Brooklands Road, Marsland Road, and the A56 northbound, aiming for the new M62 motorway (now part of the M60) from Stretford to Worsley and beyond it the A6 to Preston and then west to Blackpool. The Timperley and Altrincham variant came straight up the A56 through Sale before joining the Sharston vehicle for the route along the M62 and A6.

Another major coastal service had nothing to do with North Western, but (a little confusingly) used the service number “X5” albeit without a suffix letter. Yelloway’s famous service from Rochdale, Oldham, and Manchester to Cheltenham, Bristol, Exeter, and Torquay, passed through Sale on a daily basis during the high season, and three times per week in the colder months. Cavaliers had just taken over from Seagulls in 1962 which could explain why I still say hello to YDK 590 on every visit to the Manchester Museum of Transport. Longer Cavaliers followed before Harrington ended production and Yelloway turned to Plaxton for its bodywork. Nice as the Cavaliers were, they were far from the only attraction on this service. On summer weekends duplicates from Black and White Motorways, Greenslades, Grey Cars, Hebble, and Royal Blue were a frequent occurrence along with an assortment of Bedfords and Fords from smaller companies. Sale was actually a better vantage point to see these vehicles from than central Manchester, as many of these hires were loaded up first at Rochdale (or in the case of the Hebble machines arrived already fully loaded from Yorkshire) and then despatched non-stop to Cheltenham or beyond. They still had to travel along the A56.

Odds and Ends

PMT’s service X2 from the Potteries towns to Manchester passed through Sale twice a day and at times of normal traffic was usually operated by a relatively recent coach (in 1965, for example, Duple Commanders), but in the run-up to Christmas or on a day when Stoke City was playing a Manchester team, double-deckers were often deployed in the shape of a Weymann bodied lowbridge Atlantean or a Northern Counties Fleetline. The route always seemed to be doing very well or very badly with no happy medium. One day there would be a full Fleetline duplicating a full service coach. The next day the service coach would have nobody but the crew on board! It was easy to see why North Western had never sought a share of the route. Crosville finally reached Manchester with two “shoppers express” services in the early 1960s, the X69 from Pwllheli via Denbigh and the X75 from Llanidloes via Newtown. As with North Western’s much more numerous incursions into Crosville country, no attempt was made to acquire revenue from the outer terminus, and in effect these two services were little more than day excursions dressed up as expresses. Both services passed through Sale, the sight of their Bristol MW coaches achieving little more than a reminder of how a pig-headed and arrogant founding family can lose many opportunities, both for themselves and the travelling public. If the Taylors hadn’t held a grudge dating back to North Western’s acquisition of Mid-Cheshire in 1924 we could have had frequent, jointly operated, services from Manchester to Chester, Crewe, Wrexham, and the North Wales coast.

Neville Mercer
04/2014

Link to view Part Four – Local Coach Operators

08/04/14 – 07:58

I totally agree about Lancashire United’s Northern Counties-bodied “coaches”. The PSV Circle’s definition of DP is a bus shell with coach seats (or occasionally vice versa). It’s a useful classification, although I think “semi-coach” might have been a more accurate description of what it denotes, since the ability of a vehicle to be used for more than one purpose is a much more complex issue. The problem with these particular vehicles was probably that no-one else was ordering single-deckers from Northern Counties at the time, and therefore no-one could really say what their standard bus shell looked like.
They were rather splendid though, internally as well as externally. The standard of interior finish on these and other LUT DPs of this period was second to none, probably exceeding that of the true coaches that succeeded them when DPs went out of fashion.

Peter Williamson

09/04/14 – 08:24

I think there were plenty of cross boundary traffics between company territories which were underdeveloped over the years. It was one of the consequences of the route licensing regime – influenced not least by the possibility of railway objection.
This article prompted me to turn up W J Crosland Taylor’s 1948 book – The Sowing and the Harvest.
Regarding the 1923 discussions with the Mid Cheshire directors, he wrote “Alas! our skill in these matters was not as good as it became later and they got their price – selling to the North Western Road Car Company the next year. We were wild about it, but our wildness was tempered with admiration for our good friend George Cardwell (NWRCC), who had got the better of us on that occasion, and soon after that we met Cardwell at the Abbey Arms and over a friendly glass of beer agreed a pooling arrangement of joint services from Northwich to our territory which has worked well ever since.”
Those don’t come across as the words of a begrudging “pig-headed and arrogant” writer to me!

Mike Grant

10/04/14 – 12:33

Hi Mike, I’m afraid that I am not an admirer of any of the Taylor family, but particularly “WJ Crosland-Taylor”. I put that in inverted commas because he was born without the hyphen – Crosland was his second christian name. The fact that he would change it to sound more aristocratic says a lot about the man.
I’m also unconvinced by the mock generosity of his words about George Cardwell, written 25 years after the fact. From other accounts I would suggest that the “wild” part was the more honest reaction. And the sitting down in the Abbey Arms surely occurred several years after the Mid-Cheshire debacle when both Crosville and North Western were required by their new lords and masters (the “Combine” of Tilling & British and the railways) to hammer out area agreements regardless of how much they disliked each other. As regards “arrogant”, I would refer you to comments made about Welsh villages and the Welsh people in his various books. I think that they might agree with my verdict!

Neville Mercer

11/04/14 – 17:49

As far as I can establish, the joint Crosville/NWRCC services predated the Tilling B A T influence which I agree could have been a factor after 15th May 1930 when the Crosvlle firm was reconstituted.
144 Runcorn – Northwich began in the back half of 1928; 145 Crewe – Northwich shows as a joint service in the 1/10/29 Crosville timetable and 146 Chester – Northwich first appears in the 15/5/29 publication.
I have no doubt that there may be others sharing your views but equally from my experiences of North Wales in the ’70’s, “the Crossville” as it was often referred to, was a well respected part of the local community. The founders were long before my time but they did build a significant transport business and it is perhaps inevitable that almost “Branson- like”, they upset a few a people along the way.
Just to add to your observations about X69 and X74 I don’t think it quite accurate to say “no attempt” was made to attract bookings from the eastern end. NWRCC Northwich and Altrincham offices were both promoted for ticket sales in the service leaflets as was Lower Mosley Street. The vast majority of the traffic was for shopping and Saturday football excursions but single and period returns were available and used.
I enjoyed reading your piece but felt it worth pointing out for the record that there was another slant on Crosville history. One wonders if it‘s a consequence of having green blood!

Mike Grant

14/04/14 – 18:23

I’m left a little confused by your “green blood” comment Mike, having described the founder of Crosville as having the physical appearance of a hybrid between Ebeneezer Scrooge and a malevolent goblin (if you don’t believe me, look at a photograph of him!) in my book on North Wales independents. I presume that goblins do have green blood, but I suspect that you might have been referring to loyalty to Crosville.
I would agree with you that Crosville was a well run company in the period between the end of the war and NBC, and that it’s service network was far more comprehensive than my own beloved North Western (much as I loved this company its rural network was pathetic). My complaint is purely with the founding family who used tactics which were frequently disgraceful to achieve their near monopoly of bus services in North Wales. The evidence for this is far too bulky to present on this website, but much of it is in my North Wales book.
I take your point about the joint services from Northwich, but would suggest that the two operators’ cooperation was more to forestall any new competitors starting up before the 1930 Road Traffic Act (it was known long before the actual Act that fundamental legislative change was on the way) than an indication of a rapprochement.
As regards the X69 and X75, the leaflets may well have tried to produce traffic from the eastern end, but in all the years covered by these articles I never once saw a leaflet for the Crosville routes in either the Lower Mosley Street booking office or in Altrincham bus station’s enquiry office. I guess that you had to ask for them. Also, the two services were not mentioned on Lower Mosley Street’s signs, although in reality they operated from the former Finglands side of the bus station.
One last thought. I’m having trouble thinking of the Taylors in the same breath as Richard Branson. Surely a better comparison would be to Stagecoach, although Crosville’s anti-competitive tactics made Stagecoach look like saints. An ever apter comparison might be made to John D Rockefeller’s Standard Oil Company, which achieved its dominance by every kind of underhand tactic known to the business world. Admittedly a couple of the Rockefellers’ competitors had their refineries destroyed in mysterious fires, and I would never accuse the Taylors of going to that extreme. The Rockefeller monopoly was dissolved by Act of Congress in 1911 and split up to form Esso, Mobil, Chevron, Amoco, and a dozen other prominent oil companies. I think that a forced dismemberment of Crosville would also have been in the public interest. They could have given the successor companies names such as Mona Maroon, Llandudno Royal Blue, Brookes Brothers, and so on. The enormous reach of Crosville served their shareholders far better than the traveller. Even on the long distance express services, where a level of coordination existed between the assorted independents long before Crosville muscled in.
I think that we’ll have to agree to differ on this one, Mike.

Neville Mercer

Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 2

Not read from the beginning click here

Part Two – North Western

In 1923 British Automobile Traction, the motor bus subsidiary of BET, restructured its “branch” in Cheshire and northern Derbyshire as a subsidiary known as the North Western Road Car Company. At that time the new company had major bases in Macclesfield and Stockport (both in Cheshire) and at Buxton in Derbyshire. Its Stockport operations had reached out westwards to Altrincham but its vehicles had yet to enter the borough of Sale.

Meanwhile, another privately owned bus company had filled one of the gaps in Sale’s transport infra-structure by commencing a service from Urmston, travelling via Flixton, Carrington, and Ashton-on-Mersey. The Mid-Cheshire Motor Bus Co had been founded in Northwich in 1914, primarily to provide works services to the various chemical plants in the Northwich area. After the end of the First World War it increased the utilisation of its fleet by starting local services available to the general public and used the increased revenue to open a second garage in Flixton. As with the company’s first base the primary task of this depot was to provide works services (in this case to the sprawling Trafford Park industrial estate), but stage carriage services soon followed, including two circular routes in Urmston and Flixton, services from Flixton to Eccles and from Urmston to Warrington, and the run across Carrington Moss to Sale.

The Urmston to Sale route found few passengers except on the final section between Ashton and the town centre, so the service was rapidly re-scheduled. Its new timetable involved a bus positioning to Sale from Urmston in the morning, operating short workings between Ashton and Sale for most of the day, and then returning to Urmston via the full route in the evenings. The company was making money from its Northwich and Flixton operations, but not that much, and by 1924 the owners were being tempted to sell out.
Crosville was eager to buy, not only for the Northwich services which adjoined its own expanding territory, but to gain access to the Manchester area from the Flixton depot. Eager, but apparently not eager enough. As the Taylor family of Crosville haggled over a price (they were notoriously miserly) the more generous executives from North Western stepped in. In November 1924 Mid-Cheshire became North Western’s very first acquisition and NWRCC’s red and cream livery quickly replaced the blue and primrose previously worn by vehicles on the Flixton-based routes.

In North Western’s 1936 numbering scheme the Urmston/Ashton to Sale service became the 103 (at the same time the other former Mid-Cheshire routes serviced by Flixton depot became the 102/104-107). Having been established before the 1928 agreement with Manchester Corporation the service continued to cross the A56 boundary, passing Sale Station before turning in a triangular loop formed by Northenden Road, Woodlands Road, and Broad Road. The next major change, in the years just after World War Two, saw the Ashton end of the short-workings divided into two alternating services. One variation continued past Ashton Village via the original route to the junction of Carrington Lane and Manor Avenue, while the other turned slightly southwards into Firs Road, terminating just short of that thoroughfare’s own junction with Manor Avenue. Both versions continued to show “103” as a route number until 1962 when the Manor Avenue workings became the 205 and the Firs Road operations the 206. Through workings from/to Urmston kept the number 103.

When I arrived in Sale in the summer of 1962 the Ashton routes were still being worked by Atkinson Alphas, usually the two Willowbrook bodied examples (fleet numbers 512/3), but in early 1964 they were suddenly replaced by brand-new Alexander bodied Fleetlines. At that point in time North Western’s Urmston garage only had three Fleetlines (YJA 13/15/16, with matching fleet numbers) and it always seemed rather odd to me that these were allocated to the Sale “locals” rather than to the major trunk services between the Urmston area and Manchester city centre. I wasn’t complaining of course, the D-type Fleetlines were superb machines and appeared as futuristic at the time as MCTD’s “Mancunians” did later in the same decade. The salmon coloured ceilings in the upper decks of the vehicles made a particular impression upon me as did the double-curvature windscreens at the front ends. There were also a couple of friendly drivers who allowed me to stand on the platform and change gear for them – I should probably add that this was on a pre-selector box so no real damage could have been done. Nevertheless this would not happen in this day and age!

Until 1968 most of Manor Avenue was a lumpy dirt road, unsuitable for cars let alone PSVs, but in that year it was finally paved and as a result the 205/206 became circular services. This effectively doubled the frequency at the Ashton end of the route while still only requiring two vehicles. The services passed into PTE ownership in this form in 1972 and after the closure of Urmston depot were worked from Princess Road.

The “By Agreement” services

In January 1926 North Western acquired Altrincham & District Motor Services and became the most important operator in that town. Major inter-urban services were operated from Altrincham to Knutsford, Northwich, and Warrington, but passengers from Manchester intent upon reaching those towns still had to catch a train or connect with the North Western routes via the Manchester Corporation tramway. This changed in 1928 when North Western joined the Express Motor Bus network initiated by Manchester and the Altrincham trunk routes were allowed to continue up the A56 through Sale and Stretford to the city centre “by arrangement”. The terms of this agreement meant that the vast bulk of the revenues on the Altrincham-Manchester section went to the corporation – probably the reason why North Western was not too bothered by its drivers’ reluctance to pull in at designated stops on the way into Manchester.

The corporation allocated route numbers to these services; 36 for Northwich, 37 for Warrington, and 38/39 for Knutsford and beyond. These numbers were eventually endorsed by North Western in its 1936 numbering scheme – until then NWRCC vehicles had carried no route numbers. By the summer of 1962 the 36 was (as previously mentioned) being worked by PD2/21 Orions and Bristol K5Gs. Shortly after my arrival in Sale the service was renumbered as the 233 and extended at the Northwich end to Winsford and Salterswall. The older double-deckers were then replaced by AEC Renowns with an occasional Fleetline thrown in for variety. The 37 became the preserve of Alexander bodied Loline IIIs, while the single-deck 38/39 were operated by anything Altrincham depot could find including (from 1964) the Strachan bodied Bedford VAL14s with “Dunham canal bridge” roof profiles. These vehicles could be found on a surprising variety of routes worked from Altrincham. Their “core” duties were the Dunham Massey services (98/98A/210/211) and the Altrincham-Halebarns circulars (40/40A, later the 40/1/2/3), but they were also regular performers on the summer only X36 from Sharston to Blackpool, and weekend loans to Manchester depot saw them on express routes to Barnsley and Bradford.
One route which they never operated (mainly because of a sharp turn from Washway Road into Ashton Lane) was the 606 from Altrincham to the Petrochemicals plant at Carrington via the A56 and Sale. This operated three times each day and during my time in Sale was operated by underfloor engined saloons with either Weymann Hermes or Willowbrook dual-purpose bodywork (and “Black Tops”). Another restricted service which passed through the town was the 97B from Manchester to Parkside Hospital in Macclesfield, a long-stay psychiatric unit at that time. This operated on Sundays and could be operated by anything in Manchester depot’s inventory ranging from front-line coaches to superannuated Bristol K5Gs. There was also the 36C, which allegedly ran from Manchester to the Ancoats Hospital at Great Warford (near Knutsford) but I never saw one of these in more than a decade of living in Sale. Does anybody know more about this service? The obvious question is “why was it numbered 36C when it actually followed the 38/39 route”.

A latecomer to the roster of North Western services through Sale was the 504, a rail replacement service introduced in 1964 after the closure of the passenger railway line from Warrington to Stockport via West Timperley and Northenden. I occasionally used this railway line during 1963 as a way to reach Manchester Airport in time for the early morning departures (47/48 to West Timperley, train to Northenden, and then the first 64 to the airport – the things we do for our hobbies) and can testify that passengers were very few. The replacement bus service was equally short of punters. The 504 started at Urmston (offering connections by train from Warrington) and then followed the 103 route as far as Sale. It then turned southwards on the A56, passing the defunct West Timperley station, before making a left turn into Navigation Road and then joining the A560 to pass reasonably closely to the former Baguley and Northenden stations on its way into Stockport. I travelled on the early morning departure on this service more than 20 times in 1964/65 (both to go to the airport and to connect with long distance services at Stockport) and was the only passenger on every occasion! The regular vehicles on the route were “old friends” – Atkinson Alphas 512/3, enjoying a restful time before their eventual retirement in late 1965. They had the advantage (?) of rear entrances which meant that I could sit at the front and chat about buses to the crews. They seemed glad to have me on board. Predictably the service came to an end the moment the subsidy ran out.

Neville Mercer
03/14

Link to view Part Three – Express Services

Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 1

Not read from the beginning click here

Part One – Manchester Corporation

Sale is divided into two equal halves by the A56 trunk road which runs along a north north east to south south west axis through the centre of the town. Three main east-west routes cross the A56. The southernmost of these (Harboro Road to the west of the A56, Marsland Road to the east) used to be a “B” road in the period covered by this article but has now been upgraded to be the main east-west route as the A6144, enabling through traffic to bypass the town centre. The next east-west crossing, then as now the B5166, is Ashton Lane to the west (leading to Ashton-upon Mersey and Carrington) and School Road to the east (turning into Northenden Road after the railway bridge at Sale Station and then becoming Sale Road after Sale Moor). In the 1960s School Road was the main shopping street. The northernmost of the three crossings was formed by Dane Road to the east (the B5397) and the unclassified Glebelands Road to the west which, like both Harboro Road and Ashton Lane, led to Ashton-on-Mersey. The three routes to the east of the A56 also converged, with Marsland Road joining Northenden Road at Sale Moor to form Sale Road, and the successor to Dane Road merging in half a mile further east. The only other important through route was Brooklands Road which left Marsland Road immediately to the east of Brooklands Station and headed straight as an arrow in a south south easterly direction for Baguley on the main A560 from Altrincham to Stockport. Until the early 1930s Manchester Corporation’s main contribution to the town’s public transport was provided by three tram services. The 47 and 48 from Manchester to Altrincham stuck to the A56 for most of their routes while the 49 turned east in Sale town centre on Ashfield Road, a block to the north of School Road, passing Sale Station before terminating at Sale Moor. Ashfield Road was used as School Road met the A56 at a slightly oblique angle too sharp for a tramcar arriving from the north. All three routes retained their existing numbers when converted to motor-bus operation. The 49 was later extended at the Sale Moor end to two termini serving new housing, one fork extending via Conway Road to the junction of Norris Road and Helsby Avenue and the other via Derbyshire Road South to North Parade. Both variations used the route number 49 for more than 20 years until the service was combined with the replacement bus routes for the Manchester-Moston trolleybuses to create cross-town services 112 (Moston-Manchester-Helsby Ave) and 113 (Moston-Manchester-North Parade).

By 1962 the very frequent 47/48 (every 10 mins or better) were being operated by an eclectic mixture of everything that Princess Road garage had to offer, ranging from the famous “4100” batch of exposed radiator Daimlers to brand-new Fleetlines. Inevitably the Fleetlines began to eliminate their older compatriots as the decade went on, with most being of the “Manchester” type with a revised lower front panel. As part of the renumbering of MCTD routes in the late 1960s the 47/48 became the 63/64.The 112/113 were also operated by “4100s” from Princess Road, but Rochdale Road garage’s share of the two services added some variety in the shape of PD2s with MCW Orion bodywork. The old Daimlers rattled a lot less than the PD2s.

Later developments, operated by motor buses from their inception, were services 50, 91, 99, 150, 161, 152, and 201.

The 50 left Manchester city centre for Northenden via Wilmslow Road and Palatine Road and then continued via Sale Road, Sale Moor, and Marsland Road to its terminus at the junction of Belgrave Road and Washway Road (the A56) which has already been mentioned. MCTD described this terminus as “Brooklands”, which was as inaccurate as many of their destinations, being well to the west of Brooklands Station which was itself barely in the area most locals considered to be Brooklands. The service was fairly frequent (every 20 mins, increasing to every 15 during Saturday daytime) and at the time that I arrived in Sale was being operated by the “4400” batch of Daimlers with “pre-Orion” Metro-Cammell Phoenix bodywork and “tin front” radiator cowlings. Daimler CVG6s with MCW Orion bodywork followed by the end of the decade.
Service 91 was much less frequent and ran from Manchester to Ashton-on-Mersey via the A56, Glebelands Road, Grosvenor Road, and Ashton Lane. Its original terminus was at “Ashton Village”, a small parade of shops close to the junction of Ashton Lane and Harboro Road, but in the late 1940s it was extended to a new housing estate at Manor Avenue, and then (in 1960) across Carrington Moss to the new Manchester “overspill” development at Partington. The 91 was a joint service with North Western despite originally being worked exclusively by Corporation vehicles. The “joint” status was necessitated by the 1928 agreement between MCTD and North Western which stated that any new services to the east of the A56 would be worked by the Corporation and any to the west by the BET operator. After the 91 was extended to Partington the situation had to be amended as the service then passed under a low railway bridge between Carrington and Partington, and Manchester had no lowbridge buses. From 1960 until 1966 North Western operated the all-day “full length” service while Manchester provided peak hour short-workings between Manor Avenue and the city centre. In the North Western renumbering scheme of 1962 the full length journeys became the 222/223 (the latter diverting onto a private road through the Petrochemicals complex) while the short-workings from Manor Avenue retained the number 91. North Western’s offerings were usually Dennis Lolines while Manchester tended to use the oldest serviceable buses they could find. After Manchester’s first low-height Fleetlines were delivered in 1966 the two operators both worked through to Partington, although Manchester had a smaller share of full length journeys due to their monopoly of the peak hour extras.

The 99 took an extremely circuitous route on its way from Manchester to Sale. Leaving Manchester in a southerly direction via Princess Road and Princess Parkway, it continued southwards to the Royal Thorn roundabout, around seven miles from the city centre. It then turned west onto the A560 as if bound for Altrincham, but after a mile or so turned northwards to serve the Wendover Road part of Manchester’s Northern Moor housing estate. Continuing via Maple Road it then turned right into Brooklands Road and travelled north north west to Brooklands Station, then west into Marsland Road (briefly joining the number 50) and right into Washway Road. Half a mile later it turned right into Ashfield Road, passing Sale Station before forking left onto Broad Road and then travelling via Priory Road and Dane Road to its terminus at a triangular island on the corner of Dane Road and Temple Road. Or, to put it another way, immediately outside my parents’ house. The service operated every 20 mins at peak times and half-hourly at other times. When I arrived in Sale it was being worked by a mixture of “Phoenix” and “Orion” bodied Daimler CVGs, but at the end of the 1960s it became one of the first services to be worked by Ralph Bennett’s new “Mancunian” double-deckers. Imagine my surprise when I woke up one morning to see the new equipment on its first regular working into Sale – I’d already seen many of them on other services but that morning the future arrived at Dane Road!

The 150/151/152 were peak hour only limited stop services aimed at commuters working in the city centre. The 150 started at the North Parade terminus of (all day) service 113 but eschewed Derbyshire Road South for a route via Norris Road, Conway Road, Sale Moor, and Sale Station before leaving the borough as an express to Manchester Central Station and “Piccadilly” (actually Parker Street). The other two services both started at the Woodheys terminus, just off the A56 at the southern end of Sale, and then ran as expresses to the city centre – “Exchange” (St Mary’s Gate) in the case of the 151 and Chorlton Street Bus Station for the 152. Equipment on all three services varied, although it was always noticeable that the 150 (which served council estates) got very old buses while the 151/152 (which served a relatively posh area) were worked by much newer ones. Double-deckers were the norm until 1966 when single-deck Panther Cubs began to appear on the 151/152.

The 201 was a latecomer to the scene, starting in 1969, and ran from Woodhouse Lane (to the west of the A56 near Woodheys) to Sale Station, Sale Moor, and North Parade. The concept of a local route serving Woodhouse Lane had been raised sporadically since the late 1930s, but the 1928 agreement between the Corporation and North Western proved to be a major hurdle. Woodhouse Lane was in North Western territory while any realistic town centre terminus would be in Corporation country. North Western had little genuine interest in providing the service (as 80% of any revenues would pass to MCTD – the A56 itself was considered to be on the Corporation side of the line) but was equally reluctant to let Manchester break the 1928 agreement. North Western wanted a larger share of the revenues than Manchester was willing to offer. Stalemate ensued for more than three decades, illustrating all that was wrong with the old system of regulation. Only the impending threat of the SELNEC pte brought a triumph for common sense. The service was operated exclusively by MCTD, initially with Panther Cubs and then by their larger cousins. Oddly, despite this fact, the number 201 had actually been allocated to the potential route by North Western during the 1962 renumbering scheme, although the route they had in mind at that time had only run from Woodhouse Lane to their Woodlands Road terminus.

Manchester Corporation also operated works services in Sale. The 71 ran from Sale Moor and Sale Station to Trafford Park while the 71x ran to the same destination from Wythenshawe Park via Sale Road, Norris Road, Sale Moor and Sale Station. In Manchester’s scheme of things an “x” suffix on a works service generally denoted one unavailable to the general public, and such services often duplicated route numbers already used by unconnected services. Such was the case with the 24x. The “ordinary” 24 was the old Yelloway service from Manchester to Rochdale (jointly operated by Manchester, Oldham, and Rochdale) while the “24x” ran from the Benchill Hotel in Wythenshawe to the Barton Dock Road industrial estate via Wythenshawe Park, Sale Road, Sale Moor, and Sale Station. The 71, 71x, and 24x were generally operated by the oldest buses Northenden garage could find.

An even stranger example of Manchester’s route numbering system could be observed running along the A56 during peak hours. The route number “0x” was used for two separate workings. The first ran from Manchester city centre via the 47 route (later the 63) as far as Broadheath and then turned westwards onto the industrial estate to terminate at the Linotype works. The other started in Altrincham at MCTD’s Downs Hotel terminus and then travelled up the A56 as far as Stretford before forking left for the Barton Dock industrial area. It was thus possible (at around 7 am on weekday mornings) to see two aging Princess Road double-deckers heading in opposite directions along the A56, wearing the same “route number” and with (usually) blank destination blinds. Hard to believe that this was the same operator which prided itself on its comprehensive destination displays. A second “Linotype bound” 0x headed southwards through Sale at around 8.15 am and this journey (for salaried staff!) was operated for a time by Manchester’s last Crossleys. Despite being a restricted service I managed to ride to school on it on many occasions – the conductors didn’t seem very bothered about the licensing rules and even less bothered about collecting fares from weird schoolboys who liked old buses!
Beside the 71 from Sale Moor to Trafford Park, there was one more MCTD works service from the area which wore a “proper” route number as opposed to one of the “x” designations. This was the 149 which ran from Ashton-on-Mersey via the 91 route as far as Stretford and then into Trafford Park. I have attempted to research this service (which I never saw operating in ten years of living in Sale) but the evidence seems to be contradictory. There is no trace of a licence application for the service in the Corporation’s 1931 applications to the new Traffic Commissioners, suggesting that it was a later innovation. However, according to the terms of the 1928 agreement between Manchester and North Western any new service introduced after that treaty should have been jointly operated by both signatories – at least on paper if not in practice. Can anybody out there enlighten me on this subject?

Neville Mercer
03/2014

Link to view Part Two – North Western

21/03/14 – 18:07

Thank you, Neville for this insight into an area I only had limited knowledge of. These memories are the reasons why we are now still bus enthusiasts – not for any misguided rose-tinted nostalgia but simply because we had so much variety to see and search for. Who can imagine today’s youngsters having the same interest (assuming you could get them to lift their heads up from a phone/games machines and look out of the window)?

Paul Haywood

21/03/14 – 18:07

Brings back happy memories of my time at Sale (1976 – 1980) – and Manchester (1971 – 1975). What I cannot understand is the licencing of the area. Sale was in Cheshire (until 1974) and North Western was the local operator. Manchester was the neighbour from Lancashire. Why did they have the services east of the A56 of right? SELNEC (1969) and then GMT (1974) would obviously have changed this and I only knew Sale in GMT days. The low height Manchester Met-Camm Atlanteans were common fayre on the 222 to Partington – past my home on Ashton Lane. I was annoyed when it was changed to 262. The alliteration of 222 to Partington was lost for ever!

David Oldfield

22/03/14 – 08:33

An excellent piece Neville, redolent with memories. Two comments:
The 4400 batch had bodies unique to Manchester. Whilst they had components from both the Phoenix and the Orion, the former well regarded by Albert Neal though no longer in production, the latter in its early form immediately rejected, I can find no record of the type being given a name. They certainly were as good as the Phoenix bodies and better than the Orion’s on the 3400 class of PD2s, so it is interesting to speculate about just how those Orion bodies were purchased given the next two body orders went to Northern Counties and Burlingham.
Did MCW refuse to produce more or did Mr Neal relent and, given the work MCW had put into beefing up the Orion, decide to give it a try?
Regarding route numbers, the 0x route number was also used by Princess Rd for weekend workings to Baguley Sanitoriums, now Wythenshawe Hospital.

Phil Blinkhorn

22/03/14 – 12:07

David, the situation re MCTD and North Western is rather complex and was also replicated in Stockport and Oldham.
To simplify a very tortuous situation which pertained for over 50 years, North Western was the interloper, having expanded from a small base in Macclesfield and then centred itself on Stockport with depots around Cheshire and, oddly, Oldham. It also had a depot in Manchester.
Wherever it tried to gain routes in and to Stockport, Manchester and Oldham it originally met opposition from the local councils. In 1928 the establishment of the cross Manchester express services led to NWRCC being invited into Manchester from various parts of Cheshire on a “by arrangement” basis with some fairly complex fare and running arrangements. Generally North Western’s own routes into the city which they operated almost under sufferance terminated at the inconvenient outpost of Lower Mosley St but services which had had joint operation as part of the express arrangements ended up at Parker St when the services were truncated and cut in two.
In terms of the Sale and Stretford areas, MCTD had its own problems with Stretford Council and some of the development by NWRCC through and to the west of the boroughs was as a result of these difficulties but Manchester always was the major provider along the corridor as Altrincham, Sale and Stretford had no bus operations of their own. It was recognised, however unwillingly, as the 20th century progressed, that the majority of people moving out to housing along the corridor were employed either in the city centre or in Trafford Park and MCTD was the natural provider, a situation that expanded when the city council built overspill housing in the Partington area and provided the bus service as a consequence, NWRCC being allowed to participate, again in a complex manner in regard to presence, mileage and revenue and pretty much as the junior partner.
NWRCC’s junior status led to its eventual demise. With the bulk of its revenue being provided by services into the SELNEC area, or by the hard won services entirely within the conurbation, it could not compete and the end of the BET empire saw National Bus unwilling to keep the rather overpowered company in existence.

Phil Blinkhorn

08/04/14 – 07:58

Manchester Corporation’s “Exchange” destination probably referred to the Royal Exchange building, which is bounded by Exchange Street, Market Street and Cross Street just a few yards east of St Mary’s Gate.

Peter Williamson

08/04/14 – 17:00

Exchange was used as a terminus by Manchester trams. After the war a complete block was cleared and Exchange Gardens were created. Although there quite a few services called there, it doesn’t seem to have been generally used as a terminus. Despite that I used to catch a special 40 (the old 40) working that started from there in the morning and went through Piccadilly and down Portland Street. Confusion was caused by buses terminating on Cross Street also using “Exchange” as the destination.

David Beilby

09/04/14 – 08:20

It’s correct that several routes passing by St Mary’s Gate used it only as the ‘Exchange’ stop. However, a couple of routes spring to mind that terminated there up to the end of MCTD activities namely the 102 to Wythenshawe and the 64 (nee 48) to Altrincham. I think the 151 express from Woodheys also terminated there though I never saw one in service, but then again I never knew that an (old) 40 commenced there rather than the Waldorf CafÃ© on Princess Street at one time so I live and learn.

Orla Nutting

09/04/14 – 08:21

I didn’t know about “Exchange Gardens”, which explains a lot. My comment was actually intended for the Introduction section of this article, which mentions “Exchange”, as the terminus of the 48, not being anywhere near Exchange Station or the Corn Exchange. My recollection is that the 48 and 102 (Woodhouse Park) used “Exchange” to denote St Mary’s Gate, whereas the 41 used “Royal Exchange” to denote Cross Street.

Peter Williamson

09/04/14 – 18:03

I think the information from both Orla and Peter regarding Exchange and St Mary’s Gardens is substantively correct. I’m still travelling so can’t access my archive but will be home just before Easter and will see if I can add anything then.
One thing I can say for certain is that the ‘old’ 40 only reached that part of town in peak periods and only certain workings. The rest all finished in Albert Sq, and were supposed to run empty into Princess St and start outside the cafe opposite the side of the town hall.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/04/14 – 06:34

Sale would also see the green buses of Salford City Transport a couple of times a day as they shared the operation of the Churchill’s (Broadheath) to Broughton service (47 Salford, 47x Manchester) with Manchester Corporation.

John Hodkinson

11/04/14 – 17:46

Are you sure that Salford actually operated on this one, John? The reason I’m querying it is because the buses from Churchill’s (and Linotype) used to travel along Washway Road on weekday afternoons just as I was travelling home after detention (!) and I saw many Manchester Corporation 47Xs (usually displaying blanks in their destination apertures) but no Salford vehicles in five years of this routine. I think that if they did take an active role it must have been in the mornings only. Do we have any Salford experts in the house?

Neville Mercer

12/04/14 – 08:03

I have a copy of “Old Gillander’s”, a directory of Manchester services put together by Mike Eyre from notes made by the erstwhile Traffic Superintendent (or some similar post). This 47 service is listed together with the 52x and 84x, and there is a specific reference to it being jointly operated in 1937, but no further reference.
Works services don’t seem to have appeared in Manchester timetables until around 1960, but they are shown after that as the 47x initially, then latterly as a 63x (63 being the new number for the parent 47) or as 0x. There is no reference to Salford on the timetables, nor does my 1967 Salford timetable show this service, but I’m not sure whether Salford would list such services.

David Beilby

13/04/14 – 07:16

Salford were certainly operating some journeys on the 47x from Churchill’s to Broughton in the 1950s and 1960s. It was also included in their timetable books in the 50s and 60s.
The only journey that I can recall for certain is the overtime bus (probably on a Tues and Thurs evening) but I think they also operated one of the morning journeys.

John Hodkinson

04/10/14 – 07:15

I have just discovered this wonderful article. I lived in Sale until 1966. From 1962-1965 I went to school in Manchester on the 48, or the 151 if I made it to my stop on Washway Road at the end of The Avenue early enough. Contrary to the suggestion that Woodheys got posh buses, I don’t recall anything but some of the last Crossleys. In response to one of the other questions, I think I would definitely have remembered Salford buses on Washway Road if there have ever been any. I too vividly remember the first Mancunians appearing on the 99, and the impressive sight of the Alexander bodied NWRCC Fleetlines trying to get up School Road faster than walking pace on a Saturday morning.
Fortunately my parents indulged me so our shopping trips to the city often used the 50 or 99 as a treat for me. My country visits to Cheshire were to my grandparents in Middlewich, where I discovered the Bristol/ECW combination, which was just as well as I moved to Redcar in United country in 1966. Thank you so much.

Chris Moore

22/04/17 – 10:05

I would like to point out that the 91 route started in 1936 and was originally the 72 and terminated at Ashton Park. It was extended a little later to the junction of Dunbar Lane/Church Lane at the back of the village shops and then re-routed via Grosvenor Road and Ashton Lane to the corner of Buck Lane. The final terminus before continuation to Partington was at the junction of Manor Avenue and Carrington Lane.
The route was renumbered to the 91 in 1947. There was a works weekday service provided in the late 1950’s from Ashton to Trafford Park numbered 149.

Phil Thom

24/04/17 – 07:45

Excellent factual and nostalgic article.
With reference to Salford operating on the 47x works service to/from Churchills at Broadheath I don’t know if they actually did physically operate on the route although it was shown as a joint service, but I can show a timetable page from the SCT Timetable 1952.

David J Smith

24/04/17 – 07:47

The question of Salford Buses along Washway Road, Sale is an interesting one. I Joined Salford City Transport in 1965, working in the wages dept and later on in the Traffic Office. Let me say firstly that I have no recollection of Salford Buses running to Sale. However and secondly, looking at the history of Churchills (see under Graces Guide to Industrial History) Churchills were a Salford business from the early 1900’s and they outgrew the factory in Broughton, Salford. After acquiring land and building a new factory in Broadheath, Altrincham in the 1920’s it is certainly conceivable that Salford ran buses to the new factory there for the workforce, who were domiciled in Salford. Churchills played an important part in the manufacturing process of aviation materials and in war time, were involved in other manufacturing processes.

Mike Norris

25/04/17 – 07:17

In Thanking David S for showing the 1952 Salford Timetable, I have looked further and checked the 1975 TPC Book by Ted Gray – Salford City Transport. In the 1968 list of services, shown, is the part day 47 service, and shown as joint with Manchester. Towards the back of the book the map section, dated 1969 it shows the main all day services and the part day services, but the 47 had disappeared. And one last thought, the Salford bus livery was red until Mr Blakemore changed that to green, so until around 1947, a Salford bus would not have stood out against its counterpart Manchester buses in Sale.

Mike Norris

27/04/17 – 10:38

Regarding the change of Salford’s livery, this was nothing to do with the hapless Mr Blakemore whose ineptitude had not only almost run the Salford fleet into the ground but had attracted the detailed attention of government officialdom not a few times during World War 2.
Totally out of his depth, when he eventually departed in 1946, he had already overseen the ordering of no fewer than three chassis types for double deckers to be delivered in 1947, a major nonsense for an engineering department short on expertise and with a long list of problems to solve within the existing fleet.
His replacement, Charles Baroth, amongst a multitude of changes and improvements, had the livery changed from red and ivory to green and primrose, not only to distinguish the vehicles from Manchester’s but to highlight his new regime, arranging for the first few of the 1947 deliveries already in the red scheme to be repainted immediately after and before delivery, the rest were painted green as they came off the body builders’ lines.

Phil Blinkhorn

Buses and Coaches in Sale

Introduction

Until the age of nine I lived in a small village near Northwich in the middle of Cheshire. One of the delights of these younger years was the monthly family shopping trip to Manchester, usually on a Saturday, which involved a long journey on North Western’s route 36. By the early 1960s the vehicles involved were inevitably double-deckers with the “KDB” batch of PD2/21s with lowbridge Orion bodywork the most frequent, backed up as required by pre-war Bristol K5Gs with post-war Willowbrook bodies. I know that most people (myself included) consider the Orion body to be an example of engineering which could only be loved by an accountant, but I still have a soft-spot for the “KDBs” and would be ecstatic to discover that the only vehicle from the batch with no known demise (KDB 666 which was exported to Canada) had in fact survived. The K5Gs were also marvellous machines from the viewpoint of a small child, although less popular with crew members. On one Saturday morning in 1960 one of the venerable K5Gs broke down between Tabley and Altrincham and North Western’s Manchester depot sent out a brand new Loline II with East Lancs bodywork in its place. This created quite a stir among country folk who had never seen a forward entrance double-decker. Sadly it was not a shopping day so I had to content myself with gazing at the newfangled intruder.

From my home village the number 36 took the “B” road to Tabley and then joined the A556, which merged with the A56 at the Lymm turn-off before entering the Manchester conurbation via the posh suburb of Bowdon and the equally posh market town of Altrincham. Altrincham bus station was a good place to get my notebook and pencil out as North Western’s local garage had many types not found in the Northwich area. In addition there were the first Manchester Corporation buses to be logged, operating from a street terminus at The Downs Hotel to both Piccadilly (route number 47) and Exchange (route 48). At least those were the destinations on the front of the MCTD buses, although the “Piccadilly” terminus was identical to the location shown more accurately on North Western’s 36 as “Manchester Parker Street” and the “Exchange” terminus was better described as “St Mary’s Gate”, being some distance from Exchange railway station and equally distant from the Corn Exchange building which overlooked the bus station normally described as “Cannon Street”.
After pausing at Altrincham the 36 became a Limited Stop “by arrangement with Manchester Corporation” service. In theory it was available to local passengers from the few stops which it observed, but in reality North Western drivers became selectively blind when hailed en route and sailed serenely by without any attempt to pick up. Passengers at certain stops close to traffic lights were wise to this and would attempt to board, some of them being told fanciful lies by conductors who had already completed their waybills after leaving Altrincham!

The next municipality after Altrincham was the Borough of Sale, a small village which had been transformed into a sizeable “dormitory town” for Manchester after the opening of the Manchester, South Junction, and Altrincham Railway. For a young bus enthusiast passing through on a number 36 Sale had several attractions. The route passed the terminus of MCTD route 50 (operated by Northenden depot) and directly opposite was the main garage of Altrincham Coachways – since 1958 a subsidiary of North Western and operating a pleasing variety of Weymann Fanfares, Burlingham Seagulls, Harrington Wayfarer IVs, and Willowbrook Vikings seconded from the parent fleet. They looked rather odd in Altrincham Coachways’ blue and cream livery.

A quarter of a mile further on a glimpse might be caught of an Atkinson Alpha saloon crossing the main road at a right angle on North Western’s service 103 from Sale to Ashton-on-Mersey, and after another quarter of a mile the 36 passed the premises of Pride of Sale although the garage doors were habitually closed. This annoyed me no end and I swore that some day soon I would return on my own and gain access. I later discovered that only two coaches at most were kept here, with the rest in a yard on a back street, so I would have been disappointed if the doors had been opened.

This discovery came about in the summer of 1962 when my dad got a new job at Petrochemicals’ Carrington complex and my family moved to Sale.

Neville Mercer
03/2014

Link to view Part One – Manchester Corporation