admin – Old bus photos

Tynemouth and District – Leyland Atlantean – CFT 640 – 240

Copyright Ronnie Hoye

Tynemouth and District Transport Co Ltd
1960
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Metro Cammell H44/34F

Not very good photo of one of the first Leyland Atlantean PDR 1’s to be delivered to Percy Main depot, they were MCW bodied, and if I’m correct, they were the first in the Northern group but I don’t think they had a very long life as they were outlived by both the previous PD2’s and 3’s. If memory serves, they were CFT 636 to 43 fleet numbers 236 to 243, 236 carried the Wakefields name but was identical in all other respects. The vehicle is standing in what used to be the layover area for Newcastle Haymarket Bus Station ‘an area much changed now’ and would have been on either the number 5 to Whitley Bay St Mary’s Island, or the 11 to Tynemouth Front Street. I suspect the photo was taken in the afternoon as it’s standing next to what looks like an Alexander bodied Eastern SMT, together with United they ran a joint service to Edinburgh, morning departures from Newcastle were United vehicles and afternoons were SMT, vice versa from Edinburgh.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

16/04/12 – 07:41

Box-like they may be, but in my mind, a classic of ‘early’ modern bus design. I remember well the first appearance of the PDR1/1 MCW in Sheffield in 1959. The first batch numbered 881-899 lasted until 1976-8, exceptional lifetimes of 17 to 19 years in such a hilly environment. Strangely, the 1960 batch 915-932 only lasted between 12 and 14 years for reasons unknown to me. I wonder why the Tynemouth batch should be short-lived? Memories though of drivers over-revving etc in view of not being able to hear the tone of the rear engines after so many years of sitting alongside the powerplant.

John Darwent

16/04/12 – 07:42

There seems to have been a gentlemens’ agreement that when Leyland ceased building bodies in 1954, MCCW (Metro-Cammell) would get the work. This continued with the bulk of early Atlantean orders going there – the only exceptions being Weymann getting the semi-lowbridge and a token number of Alexanders and then the Roes. Quite a selection of uninspired designs.
Not surprising the PD2s and PD3s outlasted them, they were better buses. Not until the 1972 introduction of the AN68 did the Atlantean reach its potential and become rather a fine bus – quite the best first generation rear engined model.

David Oldfield

16/04/12 – 11:34

John, you’ve forgotten 363 – 368 which were numerically earlier, but probably contemporaneous with 881 – 899. There are myriad stories of the operators who worked hard to make early Atlanteans work – Maidstone & District and Ribble to name but two. Sheffield invested heavily in Atlanteans and never reverted to PD2/PD3 as others did – even though the latter were available for another ten years and OMO wasn’t legal on them for another seven. The difficult operating conditions helped to ensure standards were high in Sheffield and why the general public probably never noticed any problems that there were.

David Oldfield

16/04/12 – 14:39

I believe that early Atlanteans were retro fitted with rev counters so the drivers would know what the screaming from the back seat was…. they appeared on their left.

Joe

16/04/12 – 16:51

Never seen that Joe, but have seen Tachos fitted there (for private hire or on preserved vehicles). Are you sure that was the reason for the screaming on the back seats!!!???

David Oldfield

17/04/12 – 07:06

I well remember in the 60’s and 70’s when the Commercial Motor Show was held at Earls Court, Bus and Coach the trade magazine on a number of occasions ran articles featuring Alan Townsin (the well known technical writer and one time Buses editor) and another trade insider who passed considered and sometimes irreverent opinions on the latest offerings from at that time mainly British manufacturers.
When the early rear engined deckers appeared they made the comment one year that a box is an honest shape why try to hide it something that modern day designers of bodywork and colour schemes could well take on board.

Diesel Dave

17/04/12 – 11:42

Seeing this broadside view of an MCW Atlantean has made me reassess their style. At the time of their introduction, their box-like shape came as a shock. Although the front elevation of these MCW’s were indeed plain and uninspiring (like, to my mind, most of the Orion breed), the side elevation shows subtle and not unpleasant proportions. However, even a plain canvas can be transformed by the application of colour, eg. Ribble’s mainly red MCW’s looked drab, whereas Sheffield’s blue and cream examples looked smart. Subtle changes to the front windows and/or domes could alter their appearance totally. Glasgow, Liverpool, Bolton and Nottingham had good examples, creating their own house-styles from the basic box shape.

Paul Haywood

18/04/12 – 11:35

Early Atlanteans, as John and David point out, had their fair share of mechanical problems. It was such a revolutionary concept that was, perhaps, inevitable, The centrifugal clutches on the PDR1/1 made pulling away abrupt and jerky, (Maidstone & District converted all of its Atlanteans, originally introduced to replace trolley buses in Hastings). Many other components seemed to have shorter lives and maintenance costs were high, as was off-road time. Additionally, they were thirsty.
They did have excellent performance, however; if you were running late, an Atlantean was the vehicle that gave you the best chance of making up time, as another contributor, (in a PMT posting?), has observed.
I’m afraid I don’t buy the idea that drivers couldn’t hear or interpret the engine note from the back. You could tell very well. Over-revving, in my experience, was almost always due to drivers simply knowing that they could get away with it, especially when they were in a hurry. Very expensive if overdone!
The cost of their early Atlanteans was the main reason why M&D changed to Fleetlines: not as quick, but quieter, more reliable and preferred by passengers. (Rear upper deck seats on the semi-lowbridge Weymann Atlanteans were popular only with school boys). Attractiveness of appearance is a matter of taste, of course. Paul clearly doesn’t like the Orion, (although I thought it looked well on M&D’s Arab IVs), and I agree with him that an Atlantean in Ribble’s plain livery could look drab. M&D’s ‘moustache’ helped break up the frontal boxiness, and the overall livery was attractive, I think. With age, fading paintwork, and the small chips and scrapes, etc., to which they were prone, rear-engined vehicles might look more tired than equivalent front-engined buses; that was just par for the course.

Roy Burke

You can hear an Atlantean again at this link

J Wood & Sons – Leyland Atlantean – KTD 551C

Copyright Ian Wild

J Wood & Sons
1965
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Park Royal H41/33F

A comment from Chris Hough dated 20th March concerning Bolton ABN213C mentions this ex Demonstrator Leyland Atlantean operated by Joseph Wood and Sons of Mirfield, West Yorkshire. It has a Sheffield design Park Royal body and it ran on the Mirfield to Dewsbury service which was joint with J J Longstaff & Sons and Yorkshire Woollen District. Its livery with Woods was slightly modified from that which it sported as a demonstrator. The photo was taken in September 1979 by which time the bus was 14 years old.
The bus has another claim to fame. I have a newspaper cutting dated July 1966 headed PRINCE OF THE ROAD which tells of a visit by Prince Philip to Leyland Motors where he drove KTD ‘for a mile long drive on the test track’ and ‘returned the £8,000 bus safely’. A photograph with the inevitable 007 route number records the event. Amongst his passengers were Sir Donald Stokes, Managing Director of Leyland Motors together with Chairman Sir William Black.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

04/05/12 – 07:37

Yes KTD replaced the ex Baxters Crossley that is now preserved and currently up for sale at Quantock Motor services. The plaque describing the driving by the Duke was removed before the bus was scrapped and is owned by Mr Colin Wood the son of Joseph Wood.

Philip Carlton

04/05/12 – 08:55

While it was a demonstrator the bus served with the Wallace Arnold subsidiary on the “Kippax and District” route from Leeds via Halton, Crossgates and Garforth to Kipaax and Ledston Luck – again with the somewhat tiresome “007” in the route number display.

Chris Youhill

04/05/12 – 14:43

The livery of this bus, to me, looks modern and gives a more modern appearance to the vehicle than might otherwise be the case. I like the way the ‘W’ has been incorporated in the waistline stripe. Simplicity is usually best.

Chris Hebbron

08/05/12 – 07:36

Oh how I agree with Chris regarding the livery style of the Atlantean and even more with his view that simplicity is usually best. The concept of a simple refined livery and layout appears to be totally forgotten nowadays with swoops and slashes and assorted disjointed shapes which bear no relationship to the lines of the bodywork in fact they seem to be deliberately “designed” to jar and clash. The new First livery is a glaring example of this both inside and out, I also find the Stagecoach layout to be unpleasantly disjointed and the interior rather garish.

Diesel Dave

08/05/12 – 12:07

I agree entirely Diesel Dave – public transport has never looked more appalling and meaningless – at obscene expense. Managements insist that such horrors of marketing actually increase passenger numbers considerably, but I doubt if the artwork is the reason at all. I bet a straw poll of folks in the street would reveal conclusively that hardly a soul has any idea, or the remotest interest, – IF the vehicle is on its branded route, often they are not for obvious operational reasons. Thank goodness for the restrictions imposed by, I believe, TFL which ensure that buses in the Capital are practically pleasing red all over.
Digressing very briefly, the same unsightly nonsense applies also to the railways. I look out of my flat at Headingley station a quarter of a mile away and see the Northern Rail trains all day – anyone would think quite justifiably that the Depot yards had been invaded by an organised army of aerosol wielding graffiti louts. I despair.

Chris Youhill

09/05/12 – 08:09

Weren’t they a rather pleasing Maroon/Brown/Dark Green colour with a large gold ‘N’ originally (I’m colour-blind, Chris Y).

Chris Hebbron

09/05/12 – 08:11

I too agree with Diesel Dave, particularly about the First livery, just when you thought it couldn’t get any worse, it did! The truly insipid pastel shades introduced a couple of months ago were, I understood, to have provision for local identity but I haven’t seen any evidence of such. The new Wright bodied deckers for First Manchester bear the words ‘We believe in improving your bus service’ Hardly a convincing message when they’ve recently been fined a quarter of a million pounds for poor performance!
My local operator, Trent Barton, not only route brands but has a different livery for each separate service with just about every colour on the shade card being used. The downside of this is that many passengers think that they are all operated by different companies. Sure, they’ve won ‘Bus Operator of the Year’ a couple of times but although such awards are coveted within the industry, I doubt, as Chris Y says, they mean anything at all to people in the street, none of whom had a vote!

Chris Barker

09/05/12 – 09:26

To be perfectly honest Chris H there have been so many railway livery changes in recent years that I’ve lost track (Oh dear, I promise no pun intended there) of the time and detail boundaries. The simple but pleasing WYPTE (Metro – that poor over used word again) colours were plain maroon with a light custard band – individual, sane, and universally understood. When the franchise was gained by Arriva the trains were painted in that Organisation’s colours of pleasing mid blue with the “cow’s horn” cream section, again excellent. I do vaguely remember the plain gold “N” but I think that this was applied only temporarily to stock remaining in Metro maroon and cream (gold). The basic Northern Rail colour is a quite rich and pleasant “regal” blue and the “N” logo is OK, but then the rot sets in. The wild and totally meaningless (and expensive) coloured graffiti shapes have to be seen to be believed, as have huge pictures of town halls and waterfalls and so forth.
Sorry to seemingly digress onto railways, but the atrocious waste of money and disfigurement of otherwise handsome vehicles is a parallel scandal to the one we are discussing on the buses.

Chris Youhill

09/05/12 – 19:17

One exceptional disfigurement, Chris Y, was dinosaurs on the IoW 1938 LU stock. One, at least, now carries true 1938 livery with silver roof and richer red, as befits a 74 year-old!

Chris Hebbron

09/05/12 – 19:34

Yes, Chris Y & H, I agree with your aversion to the manic and illogical bus and train liveries now so common throughout the UK. However, one notable exception is the smart Grand Central Railway livery which (so far) has not fallen under the influence of their new owner – Arriva.

Paul Haywood

02/06/12 – 07:06

How I agree with the comments above on “modern” liveries, most of which seem to be the product of ecstasy induced nightmares. The preposterous original version of the “First” (how supremely ironic a name for such a company) Barbie livery had the grubby white/pink/purple shades blending into one another. Whoever devised that, and I expect that a consultancy firm received handsome payment for the aberration, had no concept of the practical world of panel damage. Not only are such liveries painful excrescences to the eye, but the over tight grasp exerted by the big groups upon their maintenance budgets is painfully apparent in the appearance of external paintwork. The older, and by no means old, buses of my local Stagecoach outfit are scruffy in the extreme. They bear absolutely no comparison with the impeccable fleet standards offered by the nearby Delaine and Norfolk Green businesses.

Roger Cox

02/06/12 – 11:59

The version of First’s livery to which Roger Cox refers was known as ‘Barbie 2’ and used for older types of vehicle. Many may may not realise that the ‘fading shades’ applied to the lower panels was actually an enormous vinyl that was a nightmare to apply, requiring several people several hours to wrap it around the entire bus, trimming and snipping around the wheelarches, fuel filler and other access flaps, grilles, lights etc. It had to be fitted around all the beading strips between the panels and around the wheelarches, but inevitably bubbled up, split or peeled away round the edges. If any oxidation occurred in the aluminium panels it would form large bubbles which someone would always be tempted to burst. The bus washing machine then had a field day with it !
Repairing minor accident damage was then very difficult. One depot actually started to cut the vinyls down by half into a narrower strip, eliminating the fadeout effect, but looking equally silly. I don’t imagine anyone involved with maintaining the buses was ever consulted about the practicality of it all.
Design Consultants eh ?

John Stringer

03/06/12 – 07:03

Nothing really to do with this subject. But John Stringer mentions a word I hate… Consultants. I’m sure John will remember the time at WYPTE, when a consultant said that there was no need for 2 vehicle workshops based on Kirkstall and Thornbury, so Thornbury went. Then a couple of years later another consultancy came along and said there was a need for central workshops in either division.
Personal titbit, worked with Colin Wood when I worked at Abbeyways 1994/5. Great bloke, good sense of humour.

Chris Ratcliffe

03/06/12 – 07:03

The new”local livery” now used by First is little better using a pale lilac that will surely fade quickly Far better to use proper local colours based on the former colours of constituent companies.

Chris Hough

03/06/12 – 11:12

You can live in hope Chris, but I fear you will die in despair!

Eric Bawden

03/06/12 – 19:35

Sadly Eric I fear you are right!

Chris Hough

06/06/12 – 07:46

Consultants : “They borrow your watch to tell you the time, and then sell it back to you.”
Committees : “The incompetent, picked by the incapable to do the unnecessary.”
I’ll just go and put my tin hat on!

Stephen Ford

06/06/12 – 09:46

Why?

David Oldfield

07/06/12 – 10:31

Why indeed Stephen – I’m sure that 99.9% of folk to several decimal places agree with you. I find the new “First Leeds” local “livery” to be as bad and un-necessary as anything before it. Who on earth wants to pay towards silhouette pictures of local landmarks concealed within the “LEEDS” lettering ??

Chris Youhill

10/06/12 – 08:15

This discussion seems to be getting further and further away from the attractive outline and livery of this Atlantean. Am I right in thinking that this same Park Royal style was used on Birmingham’s KOX…F series? It’s pleasing to know, however, that there are still SOME operators who use liveries of a traditional style. Delaine, Pennine, and a few others are well known. Here in Hampshire, there is a father and son operation XELABUS, based in Winchester and Eastleigh, using the old Hants & Dorset livery. Very nice, too!

Pete Davies

10/06/12 – 14:46

Xelabus are operating Southsea’s Open Top Sea Front service (X25), from Gun Wharf Quays to the Royal Marines Museum, Eastney, via Clarence Pier, Blue Reef Aquarium and South Parade Pier, but only on Saturday, Sundays and Bank Holidays throughout the summer: daily during the Summer School Holidays. The original CPPTD route ran from Clarence Pier to Hayling Ferry. They have kept the original route number, which was 25. Wonder what vehicles they will use; certainly not Leyland TD4’s!

Chris Hebbron

12/06/12 – 18:51

A nice write-up on Xelabus in the latest “Buses” magazine (No.687 June 2012) states that the principal bus to be used will be an ex-Lothian Atlantean, GJZ 9571), originally registered BFS 14L. The reserve vehicle will be an ex-Portsmouth Atlantean, No 11 ERV 251D. This is one of their heritage fleet. I don’t know what liveries these now carry – haven’t been to Southsea to see them yet, even though I’m local! So we’re getting back on track with the comments – two Atlanteans, albeit with different bodies (Alexander and Metro-Cammell) to the original Park Royal one at the top.

Michael Hampton

13/06/12 – 09:41

What happened to Woods? Didn’t they become part of the Abbeyways “group”, but then what . . . ? I remember that, in the 1980s, they ran an ex-Singapore Alexander-bodied 12m Leopard (in Abbeyways livery)on the 205 (as the Dewsbury-Knowle-Mirfield route had become under WYPTE numbering), but then they seemed to disappear – at some point.
Incidentally, Longstaff has recently given up on this route – its timings have passed to Lyles of Batley, although Metro publicity still refers to operations as being conducted by “Longstaff of Mirfield”. Anybody know the story here?
Anyway, what were Wood’s colours? I’ve always assumed they were black and white – because they look black and white in the only photographs I’ve seen, which are black and white . . . errm . . .

Philip Rushworth

15/06/12 – 05:47

As stated Joseph Wood and Son was purchased by Abbeyways under the guise of Go Big Ltd. The livery was always Black and Cream. The depot was in Lee Green Mirfield and shortly after Abbeyways had wound up the operation it was sold to Ron Lyles of Batley who afterwards moved back to Batley. Then the depot was demolished and today there is now old peoples flats there. With regards to J.J. Longstaff earlier this year the operation along with the two buses was sold to Albert Lyles Coaches who are trading on the service as Longstaffs. The only difference is that the service now starts and finishes at Dewsbury whereas before the service started and finished at Northorpe where Longstaffs garage was.

Philip Carlton

16/06/12 – 07:21

I worked for Abbeyways in 1993/4. I remember being sent with a message for Colin Wood one day at a garage which had the Crossley in under restoration, and I think a coach in the Abbeyways livery that had been withdrawn sometime. It certainly was not Luck Lane in Huddersfield, and I seem to remember coming away from there and turning right on to the A62 towards Leeds, but I couldn’t tell you if that was the Woods Depot, although the Crossley was a big clue I suppose. Going by what Steven Ives did in Blackpool with Abbots Coaches, then it is probable that apart from the name he bought nothing. Happy to be proved wrong on this but that is certainly what he did in Blackpool. I seem to think though that Colin Wood lived next to this depot, and part of the deal was for him to keep it. Somebody out there will probably know.

Chris Ratcliffe

17/06/12 – 07:35

It has been interesting to read some of the comments here regarding peoples’ preference for traditional livery applications.
I personally never liked this particular design of body. It was basically a late-in-the day attempt by Park Royal to disguise its original MCW-style box to compete with such as the superb Alexander design, and in my opinion it never looked right in any livery. Oddly, Roe – part of the Park Royal Group – managed to do quite a good job of updating the low-height version by adding an Alexander-inspired front to Atlanteans for West Riding and King Alfred. I thought they looked really good, even though mechanically they were perhaps not so.
I am afraid that I do not believe that Wood’s livery did this one any favours either. The band below the lower deck windows just looks wrong – too thick and set too low – as does the total absence of relief colour on the top half of the bus.
I think if it ever looked even passable, it was probably when in its original demonstration livery.
I am in agreement with most about preferring the traditional liveries of old, though many would be just too fussy to transfer comfortably to the lines of certain modern buses, and would need simplifying.
A number of operators over the years have revived an old livery on a new bus to celebrate an anniversary. Many have looked really well, but some looked really awkward and self-conscious.
I have always thoroughly disliked First’s livery, but am staggered frankly at their latest mess. I have to admit that as modern liveries go, some of the Blazefield/Transdev companies schemes seemed to be quite good – strong, distinctive, contrasting colours applied quite simply. I had rather hoped that when Giles Fearnley moved to First some of this influence might have come with him. Instead the new ‘style’ is pale and wishy-washy, with odd stripes here and there for no apparent reason, starting and finishing in the middle of nowhere. It looks like it was designed by a committee to me. A thorough disappointment.

John Stringer

17/06/12 – 07:36

Regarding the operation by Abbeyways of Joseph Wood mention has been made of the ex Singapore Leopard demonstrator that was used on the service from Dewsbury to Mirfield. My recollection is they also used buses from the Hyndburn hire fleet both doubles and single deckers and for a while they ran service 208 from Dewsbury to Whitley. The depot Chris Ratcliffe visited was at Lee Green Mirfield as mentioned in my earlier posting. I have never found out why Abbeyways gave up operations at Mirfield but this seems typical of Steven Ives.

Philip Carlton

18/06/12 – 08:01

Lets hope for a return to some traditional colours in West Yorkshire. I’ve heard on the rumour mill that First has put everything in Yorkshire (and more possibly) up for sale with the exception of Leeds – including the York operations it invested in quite heavily a few years back. That might explain why I haven’t seen any Halifax/Bradford/Huddersfield names on the new livery (what would First have chosen as the sky-line for “Bradford”, given the present state of the city centre [non] redevelopment? – a pile of rubble??). Are First planning to pull out of Sheffield? Whatever, come on Transdev, come on Go-Ahead, buy in there and re-invent (I agree with John, you can’t always resurrect) some of the wonderful liveries from the past. We could debate the aesthetics of this Park Royal body style against its contemporaries, but it still looks way better than today’s offerings – and, moreover, it doesn’t look like it would fall apart when it hit the first stone/pot-hole in the road.

Philip Rushworth

19/06/12 – 08:19

I am intrigued to learn that First are now pursuing wholesale withdrawal from West Yorkshire. One wonders what this group’s business plan now is, as it seems to be getting out of some major conurbations. It withdrew from Kings Lynn a couple of years ago, where the operations were taken over very effectively by the smart fleet of Norfolk Green, whose livery is very much in the traditional style. Since then, Bury St. Edmunds has been abandoned. Perhaps, after the initial flurry of manic, cut-throat competition, and then the establishment of large regional monopolies, we are about to see phase three of the deregulation scene, with the expansion of soundly established independent operators into the “vacated” areas.

Roger Cox

19/06/12 – 09:19

I hope the rumour mill is correct certainly Rotherham seems on its last legs and Stagecoach are proving a viable contender in Sheffield If only Leeds would also go to someone with pride in what they do unlike First with their poor quality take it or leave it attitude.

Chris Hough

19/06/12 – 11:41

Despite early bad publicity – often either malicious or simply incorrect – Stagecoach has developed into one of the best groups around, along with Go-Ahead. As someone who does not have shares in Stagecoach but an informed observer, this pleases me. I, like many others, would be happy to see First disappear from South Yorkshire – and many other places too – but feel that it would be unhealthy if Stagecoach were left to it themselves. I agree that the best situation would be for a decent independent to emerge. Failing that for Go-Ahead to come in and support “healthy” competition.

David Oldfield

19/06/12 – 13:35

Roger, the actual words used by First were ‘We may have to re-position our UK bus portfolio’. That was when they felt the need to issue a profits warning earlier this year. That’s what it’s all about, unfortunately, their primary duty is to make a profit for their shareholders, but how is it, that some seem to achieve this in a better way than others? I agree with the view about Stagecoach, some of their tactics in the past have been despicable, but they do appear to have become one of the better players. How many times have you seen the words ‘municipal pride’ attached to many of the old council operations? What a great shame the former municipals in South and West Yorkshire, in their present day ownership, have become very much a case of profit first, service second!

Chris Barker

20/06/12 – 08:32

Just returned from a weeks holiday in Cheltenham were we travelled just about everywhere by Stagecoach. We made use of their excellent West Megarider gold ticket which, at £19.50 gave unlimited 7 day travel covering an area centred on Gloucester as far out as Hereford, Tewkesbury, Oxford, Swindon, Marlborough, Trowbridge, Chippenham, Lydney and Monmouth. There is also a good selection of smaller area runabout type tickets to choose from at varying prices. Excellent value when you consider the five minute journey from where I live into Halifax costs £2 with First. Whilst Stagecoach do have some competition from smaller independents in the Gloucester/Cheltenham area by and large they seem to “rule the roost” with there network of services yet still provide a ten minute frequency from the suburbs into Cheltenham plus the ten minute frequency between Cheltenham and Gloucester using high quality double deckers (leather high back seats etc.). One must also bear in mind the largely rural nature of most services once out of the towns and cities. Being visitors to the area we also found the drivers willing and helpful in answering our queries.
From my experience of Stagecoach West I think it shows that a large conglomerate, with a bit of thought, can get the balance right between shareholder needs and providing a service to the public

Eric Bawden

21/06/12 – 06:50

Usually, once a year, I go for a Grand Day Out, by bus, with a friend. However, on a Friday, last summer, I got the megabus from Gloucester to Swindon, a Stagecoach West bus from Swindon to Andover, then used Stagecoach Hampshire to get to Winchester, where a friend lives. We came back by car on the Monday. I got some advance advice from Stagecoach West, not for the first time, and have always found them to be helpful, making enquiries of their neighbouring colleagues, where necessary. They have also re-introduced a through service from Gloucester to Hereford and later buses on Gloucester’s routes, now leaving town centre at around 23:30hrs. My local town service had a 15 minute frequency during the day, hourly after 19:00hrs. I have no connexions with the company.
Local Gloucester independents are Aston’s, Pullen’s, Swanbrook, Jackie’s and Mike’s Travel. The days of National Welsh and Midland Red, who ran an express service to Birmingham, are long gone! Other routes went to Abergavenny and also Cardiff, although the latter route has been progressively cut back to Newport, then Chepstow, now Lydney!

Chris Hebbron

21/06/12 – 06:51

When I attended the Harrington Gathering at Amberley, I got chatting to a Stagecoach employee from Brighton. Among his comments about my life in Southern Hampshire was one that falls in with several above. The recent service changes which First made here a couple of months ago were an utter waste of time and money. I had heard from several of the local drivers and inspectors that it was a last ditch attempt to generate more than they were spending, but the chap from Brighton said the other groups between them give First six months before collapse.
We shall see!

Pete Davies

21/06/12 – 11:29

I’m sure the MD of Stagecoach West would be pleased to hear the above comments. [I have to declare an interest here; he’s a friend of mine.]

David Oldfield

22/06/12 – 11:17

This was Woods last decker and was replaced by a Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopard. The body design although mainly associated with Sheffield was also bought by Birmingham Leicester and Salford.

Chris Hough

22/06/12 – 15:05

David O, you are welcome to show your md friend my comments on Stagecoach West

Eric Bawden

23/06/12 – 06:05

Sorry to contradict the comment about KTD 551C being the last decker.It was replaced by an ex London DMS TGX 769M.Incidentally the Leopard mentioned had its Plaxton service bus body scrapped and the chassis was sold to Stanley Gath of Dewsbury who had a number of older chassis rebodied but for some reason this never happened and the chassis was dismantled for spares.

Philip Carlton

23/06/12 – 06:06

This is a bit off topic, I know, but relates very topically to the issues discussed above, and very indirectly to Woods-will the “Woods” return?
Metro, that is the West Yorks Transport Authority have today announced a plan to take control- as they may- of local buses in terms of “quality contracts”- supposed to be like London, but sounds like the Railways to me, too. Bus passengers have plummeted: presumably the idea is to make the buses run where they are needed, on time, at approved fares- and most importantly, turn up at all, on some routes. In my youth it was unthinkable that the bus would not turn up… that attitude- the Woods or Ledgards or some of the old Municipals- is what we need. Presumably First got wind….

Joe

23/06/12 – 14:22

Thanks Philip I’d forgotten the DMS The other independent Longstaff ran an ex Devon General tin front AEC Regent III for a while and bought a long wheel base Atlantean with NCME bodywork which ran for the late lamented Black Prince for a time.

Chris Hough

24/06/12 – 15:24

The Leyland Atlantean of J.J.Longstaff was sold by Black Prince and eventually became a cut down recovery vehicle with Yorkshire Traction. I drove for Longstaffs in the late 1970s.Incidentally Mr Brian Longstaff the last surviving son of the founder John James Longstaff died a couple of years ago. As mentioned in these listings the family have sold the business to Albert Lyles Coaches of Batley who are still operating the service 205 from Dewsbury to Mirfield exactly as Longstaffs did.

Philip Carlton

25/06/12 – 07:33

Nice to see the business (and route) going to another independent.

Chris Hebbron

25/06/12 – 07:34

I had a aunt who lived at Ravensthorpe and we occasionally visited for tea. After a while I would escape and go watch the buses passing by along North Road. These were on the joint YWD/Wood/Longstaff service mentioned, but it was interesting that it was only when Metro (WYPTE) took charge of timetables that all three operators’ timings were listed. YWD had stubbornly refused to mention the other two’s timings, giving the impression that it was only hourly instead of every 20 minutes. I remember Wood’s Crossley, and the replacement Atlantean, but there was also an ex-Glasgow Leyland Worldmaster – FYS 689 – which for a while ran with its original Weymann/GCT body before Wood’s rebodied it with a new Plaxton Panorama Elite coach body. It later passed to Tower Coaches who ran it for many years, although by then it had a later style Leopard badge, and sounded more Leopard than Worldmaster, so they may have replaced more than just the body. Worldmasters sounded distinctly different from Leopards – we had nine of our own in Halifax and I was very familiar with them (more of these another time).
I seem to also remember a Burlingham bus bodied Atkinson single decker before that.
Longstaff’s had an ex-LT RT – HLX 321 – which then gave way to a marvellous ex-Devon General Regent III/Weymann Orion (with ‘New Look’ front)of the PDV-registered batch, like the two that Ledgard’s had. This was replaced with the unusual Daimler CSG6/30 /Northern Counties LSN 286 with David Brown synchromesh gearboxes, that had been new to Garelochhead Coach Service.
Longstaff’s too had a single decker, which was a Tiger Cub/Weymann Hermes, which I think was ex-Rhondda.

John Stringer

25/06/12 – 17:06

Longstaff’s Tiger Cub replaced a far more interesting saloon, Sentinel STC4/40 OUP 579, which ran for them on the Dewsbury service from November 1961 to November 1965. The vehicle had been new in October 1953 (making it one of the last STC4/40s to be sold) and was originally operated by Trimdon Motor Services. Strangely TMS only kept it until February 1955 – most of their Sentinels lasted until the end of the decade before disposal. It then ran for a couple of contractors on staff services (an astonishingly young vehicle by most contractors’ standards!) before being acquired by LG Phillips of Glynceiriog in June 1961 from the Don Everall dealership. Three months later Everalls repossessed it (their version) or had it returned to them because it was rubbish (Phillips’ version) and then it went to Longstaff.
The fact that Longstaffs kept it for four years, in daily service on a busy urban route, might help readers to make up their minds as to which version was true. It certainly looked very nice in Longstaff’s two-tone blue livery, and an excellent colour shot of it can be found in Geoff Lumb’s book “The Heyday of the Bus in Yorkshire” (Ian Allan).
After withdrawal by Longstaff it went to another Phillips, this one of Shiptonthorpe, and gave another year of service on works contracts before being scrapped.

Neville Mercer

26/06/12 – 06:46

Regarding John Stringers comment about Y.W.D not acknowledging that the service from Dewsbury to Mirfield was a joint service rang a bell with me. Longstaffs and Woods departed from the side of Dewsbury Minster yet the YWD bus left from the bus station on the other side of the road. Brian Longstaff once told me that they acquired a Saunders bodied London RT with a route roof number box. Longstaffs painted the number 11 on it and were given a sharp rebuke from YWD and were told to remove it which they did. Yet later when YWD were having a severe vehicle shortage a Longstaffs bus went on hire to YWD in the evenings and was crewed with a Longstaffs driver and a YWD conductor and of course this timing went from the bus station.

Philip Carlton

15/02/14 – 15:25

One of the problems of fitting vinyl is that in corners there is a tendency for the vinyl not to fit right into the corner but take a short cut. If you could see a side on view it would look like a triangle with the vinyl being the long edge. This is called “tenting”.
Inevitably the vinyl eventually tears (as it is under stress) or develops a hole, water is trapped behind it and creates a bubble that some are tempted to burst. Either way it can provide the conditions for rot to get a foothold.
Vinyl comes in various grades and many operators choose the cheaper grades. Sunlight is not kind to it!
In a similar vein: Contravision.
Contravision is quite simply perforated vinyl. From the outside the eye sees the “big picture”. The eye doesn’t see the thousands of very small holes.
In theory from the inside the eye sees through the holes to the outside view as this is brighter. I am sure we are all familiar with various optical illusions and how the “mind” can be confused. This can happen with Contravision where some just seem to see the inside of the vinyl.
What causes the problem is the perforated holes fill up with grime / grease etc. Washing doesn’t seem to remove it as any brush glides over the top as the vinyl sits proud. The only solution is to literally pick out the grime from each hole – a fools errand.
As much as advertising revenue is important to operators I seriously wonder if the long term loss to the business (in terms of customer perception and satisfaction etc) is greater.

David R

23/02/14 – 06:51

First of all may I make a comment about the ostensible ‘joint’ service referred to – and this will come a bit alien to anyone who wasn’t around at the time of Road Service Licensing.
Longstaff and Wood operated a joint service, to the extent that it was covered by a joint Road Service Licence. The YWD Service 11 was completely independent, even though it followed exactly the same route – except for the terminating arrangement in Dewsbury, of course. However the timings were coordinated to the effect that, between the three operators, a twenty-minute service was provided.
The above, John S, is the reason why there was no mention of the Longstaff/Wood service in the YWD timetable – YWD would have had no more reason to include it than they would the service of any other operator which ran in its area. However there was a time (this would be the early 1970s, at least) when there was a separate section in the YWD timetable for other operators’ services – and the Longstaff/Wood operation was shown there, i.e. not in the same section as YWD Service 11. This showing of other operators’ services was widespread throughout the NBC at the time.
Finally, Philip C, referring to the story of Longstaff going on hire to YWD, if the hirings took place in the evenings (rather than peak times), it sounds as though it was drivers YWD were short of at the time, rather than vehicles.

David Call

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

24/02/14 – 07:43

I drove for Longstaffs in the early 1980s. Brian Longstaff once told me that on Sundays they were willing to have the day off alternating with J,Wood on a weekly basis but Alice Wood would not comply so the three services ran even though there was not enough passengers for one bus never mind three. Now a days the service does not run on Sundays and terminates at 8 P.M whereas when I drove we worked until 11.30.

Philip Carlton

CIE – Leyland Atlantean – 353 IK – D353

Copyright Paul Haywood

CIE (Coras Iompair Eireann)
1970
Leyland Atlantean PDR1A/1
CIE/MSL H43/31D

Ireland’s national transport authority – CIE – came late to the rear-engine bus scene. Although they had been wooed by Leyland from an early date (and even trying a Guy Wulfrunian), the first buses from an initial order for 341 Atlantean PDR1/1â€²s did not enter service until late 1966, known as the ‘D’ type. Subsequent batches brought the total number of PDR1’s to an amazing 602 by 1974, followed by a further 238 AN68/1’s by 1977.
To reduce costs and to give work to CIE staff, all the chassis came in knocked-down form for local assembly and, because CIE were unimpressed with the box-like shape of early Atlanteans, they were fitted with these unusual CIE/Metal Sections bodies. The first 218 were fitted with a front-entrance 78-seat body but the remainder had 74-seat dual-entrance bodies in the certain expectation of one-person operation which, because of local union objections, never materialised until 1986, by which time many of the early examples had been withdrawn.
Leyland’s notoriously unreliable vehicle performance, spares availability and after-sales service during the 1970s finally exhausted CIE’s patience, and many Atlanteans (and Leopards) had to be re-engined by DAF and GM. In a desperate attempt to break away from their reliance on British supplies, and to create a totally home-grown bus industry, CIE came up with the unique German-designed, GM-engined Bombardier buses in the early 1980s which were built in Shannon – but that’s another story.
This photo of D353 shows one of the 1970 batch of PDR1A/1’s on Dublin’s O’Connell Street in 1984, two years before CIE decided to split its bus and train divisions into separate companies (Irish Bus, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail). It is seen wearing the thankfully short-lived tan livery which replaced the smarter blue and cream scheme, before giving way to a smart two-tone green as seen on the Bombardier in the photograph.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Haywood

26/10/12 – 07:37

A cast iron contender for the Ugly Bus page.

Phil Blinkhorn

26/10/12 – 10:11

Exactly my reaction, too, Phil! Looks like CIE’s experience with Atlanteans mirrored M&D’s experience, also.

Roy Burke

26/10/12 – 10:12

Yes, Phil, but how high would it be in the ratings, bearing in mind what ugly ducklings are on that page already?
Too new for this site, but I have a view of one of the tan-liveried ones (Van Hool/McArdle body) on parade in Southampton for “Committee Inspection”, alongside the usual East Lancs product in July 1975.
I was under the impression that CIE had a green and cream livery – the one with the flying snail logo – before the tan, and then they went to the blue and cream one which I’ve seen at Duxford a couple of times, before going to two-tone green. Liverpool and Birmingham respectively spring to mind, but whose livery inspired the tan? More important, how far adrift from reality is my memory?

Pete Davies

26/10/12 – 10:20

Amazing Phil – I read that bit about CIE/Metal Sections bodies, but I didn’t realise the metal sections were cast iron!

Stephen Ford

26/10/12 – 14:26

Pete,
The double decker liveries were: pre war and into the late 1940s mid green with three white bands
Late 1940s to 1961 the green was much darker and the bands were painted light green.
From the 1961 the colour scheme was gradually changed across the fleet to a blue and cream one reminiscent of Birmingham’s, including the sandy coloured roof, though this feature was deleted on repainting. The first Atlanteans appeared in that scheme before the adoption of the scheme shown above, which was not applied to front engined double deckers.

Phil Blinkhorn

26/10/12 – 17:27

Baffling, isn’t how in Dublin the buses were ever Black and Tan? This body had the bookends look with sloping front and back- a precursor of the Olympic “Routemaster”? Works no better…. but then a sort of nod to Liverpool with the peak. The side window frames slope one way, and the upper front deck the other. The strong (that’s the answer) green now looks good, as did the original green- with those Gaelic bus stop signs.The old CIE logo was (also?) a circle of segments (if you follow). If you want to see lots of buses (no wonder the fleet is huge) go to Dublin: the only way to get around is the bus.
Off topic but still Leyland: what were those two Titans tantalisingly in the background in the Antiques Roadshow last Sunday? Beautiful greeny/goldy livery on one, despite what I just said….

Joe

27/10/12 – 06:23

Thanks, Phil.

Pete Davies

27/10/12 – 06:25

The Titans were a Massey bodied PD2 late of Birkenhead in blue and cream and the other one with an MCW body once belonged to Wallasey.

Phil Blinkhorn

27/10/12 – 06:27

Sorry, Joe, I cant give you a definite answer as I didn’t see the programme. However, it came from Port Sunlight so the most likely answer is that the blue one would have been either one of the two preserved Leyland’s from Birkenhead Corporation fleet. Both are Massey bodied, BG 9225 is a 1946 Titan PD1/A and FBG 910 is a 1958 PD2/40. I don’t know where the green/gold vehicle would be from, unless of course it was both of them and one had been given a repaint for some special event and will be returned to its correct livery at a later date

Ronnie Hoye

27/10/12 – 09:36

Joe, you’re right about the strange choice of liveries used by CIE over the years. The original green was logical enough considering their history, but to go black and tan for the buses (and – don’t forget – the railways) always seemed perverse considering the baggage that those colours carried. You say the only way to get around Dublin is by bus, but don’t forget their two superb tram lines and the extensive Dublin Area Rapid Transit railway which have transformed the city’s transport network in recent years.

Paul Haywood

03/01/13 – 13:02

As an Irish person (and transport photographer) I feel I have to correct comments made here. We never had a black and tan bus livery anywhere in Ireland. The buttermilk tan livery, as shown in the picture at the top of this page, replaced a livery known as monstral blue and cream, which looked very similar to black and white, the blue was very dark and the cream was very light! Then of course when C.I.E was spilt in 1987 the Atlanteans took on red and white Bus Eireann livery or Dublin Bus Green, depending on which of the 2 companies they were working for.
As I can’t post links here check out my flickr page, under the name irishmanufan, in the collections fotopic rescue and rallies and preserved buses to see pictures of Irish Atleanteans in monstral blue and cream, butter milk tan and Dublin Bus Green. 2 are standard D’s (PDR1) and one is an AN68.

Linda

Just include the url if you want to post a link. Irishmanufan

03/01/13 – 15:29

Fair point, Linda, but “black and tan” has been a description long used for this CIE livery (and particularly for the railways of this period) by many enthusiasts both British and Irish, rightly or wrongly. As you will know better than me, the shade of “tan” on the bus illustrated here varied considerably between batches and overhauls and some were distinctly darker (and more “tan”) than shown here. The point of the postings is to say “good riddance” to this livery, regardless of how it’s described, when we consider the more attractive liveries that were used before and since this period.

Paul Haywood

03/01/13 – 15:30

The blue CIE livery was in some ways a copy of the Birmingham livery and was applied in similar manner. No operator would dare to run buses in the Republic in black and tan!

Chris Hough

04/01/13 – 14:07

I’m still baffled. If you were going to use “buttermilk tan”, it is hardly tactful to team it with “Guinness black” wheels. The original West Yorkshire Metro livery was, if I recall, Buttermilk (lighter than this) with a gentle (emerald) green- and red wheels? That would have done the trick.
Fortunately, caramac clearly didn’t last long: could have been worse: pink & blue with fuzzy bits.

Joe

08/02/13 – 06:40

This livery was NEVER described as Black & Tan on C.I.E buses…The correct livery was Middle Buff made by British Paints Ltd and its reference no. is BS 350…I know this as Liam Dunne, no less told me when I did stand work with him at the Commercial Motor Show in Earls Court in 1974 and later at the NEC in 1978..Liam was C.M.E of C.I.E Road Services and later M.D of Van Hool McArdle in Spa Rd Dublin.. Hope this helps..

David O’Connor

14/04/13 – 08:02

Well I never heard the original D class Atlanteans described as ugly before. They were a significant advance on other bodies back in 1966.

tarabuses

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

18/10/13 – 18:35

I’ve just bought a new scanner and got a far better scan of the CIE Dublin Atlantean. This shows a more accurate “tan” which may or may not settle the “black and tan” controversy.

Paul Haywood

Tynemouth and District – Leyland Atlantean – FFT 757 – 257

Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Tynemouth and District
1962
Leyland Atlantean PD1/1
Roe H44/33R

The early PDR1/1 and PDR1A/1 Leyland Atlantean’s have long been a point of discussion, and I was never a fan of them. The NGT Group had around 250 and the majority were Roe bodied, but they also had Weymann and Metro Cammell as well as the early and later type Alexander, then after NBC was formed they were allocated a hand full of ECW’s. Before depot fleets started to be changed around, Percy Main had 22 in total, 9 Metro Cammell, CFT 936/44 – 236/44 (240′ is posted elsewhere on this site), and 5 Roe DFT 245/9 – 245/9 all came in 1960. then another 8 Roe’s arrived in 1962, FFT 754/61 – 254/61; one Metro Cammell ‘236’ and two Roe ‘254/5’ carried the Wakefields name. The rest of the group continued to order Leyland, but in 1963, Percy Main became the first to order the infinitely superior Daimler Fleetline. I never heard any adverse comments about the build quality of either body, and at first glance the did look rather similar, but to me the Metro Cammell looked more balanced and better proportioned than the Roe, but both did look rather smart in Northern’s livery. As for NBC, well the poppy red was bad enough, but this version of Tyne & Wear PTE yellow didn’t do anything any favours. 257 seen above still carried the Tynemouth name, and all NGT subsidiary names were made defunct in 1975, so the photo predates that, but look how far the standards of the one immaculately turned out Tynemouth and District fleet have fallen post NBC. e.g., on this one the wheel trims are missing, on others badges and body trim weren’t replaced when repairs were carried out, and sometimes repaired areas stuck out like a soar thumb, and in general the fleet just looked shabby. I don’t know if this was common throughout NBC, but it certainly was in this area, and both NGT and United suffered. Was it because pride in the company had been lost, poor management, cost cutting, or a combination of all of those factors? The current Northern ‘Go Ahead Group’ management seem to be making an effort and the fleet seems to be well cared for, but the glory days are long gone.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

09/04/13 – 16:50

NBC became to stand for No Body Cares – at least as far as vehicle looks were concerned. This was apparent from the start with an eminently forgettable and fadeable poppy red, the dullest green in living memory and a dirt attracting white being chosen for the fleet colour choices. After that it was all down hill.

Phil Blinkhorn

09/04/13 – 17:43

Superior Daimler Fleetline…………did you drive these vehicles? The Daimler Fleetline was a very poor bus compared to a Leyland Atlantean. The Fleetline may have been more economical but when you could get an engine to perform as poorly as this it’s bound to be more economic than the Leyland which was superior in every way.

Michael

10/04/13 – 06:50

The early rear engined buses were all “inferior” in their own way but only the PDR1/2 excelled the PDR1/1 in the inferiority stakes. The improved AN68 tackled most problems and produced the best 1st generation rear-engined vehicle – and was succeeded by a real classic, the ON Olympian. The Fleetline was more reliable than the PDR1/1 and in almost every way superior to the PDR1/2. Leyland should have concentrated on the Fleetline, rather than the PDR1/2, for low floor buses. It was arguably better even than the VRT which was a late entrant and should have learned by its competitors early mistakes. Perhaps the best first generation line up should have been what almost happened. “Leyland” Fleetline available with choice of O.680 or 6LXB (which did happen) for low-floor and Leyland Atlantean AN68 or AN6LXB for standard height?

David Oldfield

10/04/13 – 11:06

David, the PDR1/2 first appeared in 1964 with a drop centre rear axle bought from Daimler. Why Daimler allowed its, at the time, only serious competitor to purchase what could be seen as its major competitive asset, especially in the race for NBC Group sales, is probably down to the attitude of Sir William Lyons to Daimler as a whole and to Jaguar’s need to improve cash flow in an area in which it had no previous expertise and which it perceived as a piece of saleable engineering rather than a proprietary product to be protected.
Leyland didn’t get its hands on the Fleetline until 1968 when it merged with Jaguar/Daimler’s then owners British Motor Holdings. By then Leyland, as the major component of the merged company, was working on the design of the AN68 and, having added the Fleetline to its stable, had no need to do anything other than support the PDR1/2s in service, the type having been withdrawn from the catalogue in 1967.

Phil Blinkhorn

10/04/13 – 17:28

Sorry, Phil, but NBC did not embrace poppy red, leaf green and washday white liveries from the start. For the first three years, companies were left alone to run things much as before in most respects, including that of liveries. The rot set in with the appointment as chairman of glue manufacturer and failed Tory parliamentary candidate, Freddie Wood, in 1972. Centralisation then became the policy that apparently befitted “The Biggest Bus Company In The World”. Thenceforward, all material decision making was undertaken at the “top”, much of it in collusion with another over promoted egotist, Donald Stokes of Leyland. That’s when things went wrong, and the bus industry is plagued by the same attitudes today. Local managers of companies in the big groups have very limited freedom of manoeuvre. Profit margins form the only parameter of importance to the present day City driven transport groups. Profit first – passengers nowhere. After a working lifetime in the bus industry, I have now totally given up on my local bus operator and use my car. The northward extension of the much vaunted Cambridgeshire “Busway” service (on ordinary roads, that is) results in our village getting an hourly ‘service’ that runs anything up to an hour late. Letters to the local company go unanswered. NBC is dead. Long live NBC.

Roger Cox

10/04/13 – 17:28

I used to like the Jones of Aberbeeg NBC livery, Dark Blue with white lettering and on some vehicles, white trim. It was a subsidiary of Red & White but never bore those colours.

Orla Nutting

10/04/13 – 17:29

Within the Municipal fleets, politics had a great influence. Some would support only “ABC” because “ABC” buses were built locally, while some of their neighbours couldn’t stand the things and bought only “XYZ”. They even refused to have demonstrators visiting. Such things have been discussed in these columns before.
My own local fleets in my formative years were Lancaster, Morecambe & Heysham, and Ribble. By the mid to late 1960’s, Lancaster was largely Leyland, but there were still some stragglers from Wartime deliveries. Next door, Morecambe & Heysham were very staunch AEC supporters and nearly all of us know about Ribble’s buying pattern!
In Birmingham, in my student days, most of the fleet was from Daimler, but Guy and Leyland were there as well. In Southampton, the Atlantean was arriving by 1970 when I moved down here, replacing the vast number of Guy Arabs. Southampton had only ever had one Daimler. The fleet history declares it to have been “unsatisfactory” and was returned to the maker. The Council didn’t want to know after that, although they did host visits by a couple of Fleetlines in 1964.
Coventry is famous for the dispute after Atlanteans were ordered rather than Fleetlines.
I like Ronnie’s comment about what the current management at Go Ahead are trying to achieve in respect of presentation. I am familiar with their operations in Dorset, Hampshire, Wiltshire and the Isle of Wight. For the most part, vehicles are clean and tidy, but the liveries are a bit garish!

Pete Davies

11/04/13 – 07:43

Roger you are quite correct about the date of the livery introduction, something I have always known and which I always place as the start of NBC’s real hold over its constituents – something I should have made plain. Again you are correct about Wood and Stokes, two classic examples of the failure of the dogma, still existing in many businesses, that a successful manager in one industry can be equally successful in another even though they have little knowledge and experience in any other field but their own.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/04/13 – 07:44

Pdr/1 Atlanteans in the potteries fleet were on the heavy loaded services and also hilly services and also did express services during holiday times they were a drivers bus and very reliable. Fleet lines were to slow having problems with fluid throttle linkages and the driving position was very poor in relation to the swept area of the windscreen in the wet, all in all they were crapp.

Michael driver of 47 years experience

11/04/13 – 07:44

Pete mentions municipal buying policy my local operator Leeds triple sourced chassis and doubled sourced bodywork How much this kept the various suppliers up to the mark is anyones guess but it kept ones interest going.

Chris Hough

11/04/13 – 16:13

Yes, Michael, I have driven Fleetlines a mile or several thousand, and I don’t retract a word of what I said. The only PDR1’s we had were the 22 mentioned in my posting. I left T&D in 1975, just as the AN68 was coming into service, but they were mostly used on OPO routes and my experience of them is limited, so I cant comment. The Atlantean was faster than the Fleetline, and no doubt would be better suited to some routes, but the superior lower end torque of the 6LXB made the Fleetline a far better vehicle for the stop/start high volume routes we had at Percy Main. I can count on one hand with fingers to spare, the amount of times I broke down with a Fleetline, I lost count with the Atlanteans.

Ronnie Hoye

12/04/13 – 07:55

Phil,
The Atlantean PDR1/2 used the drop centre rear axle developed by Leyland for the ‘Albion Lowlander’. This had to be modified to allow the drive to come in from the offside rather than the nearside as on the Lowlander. What Leyland bought in from Daimler was the Fleetline gearbox, as the Leyland gearbox couldn’t be used with a drop centre axle. This changed with the PDR1/3, the successor to the PDR1/2, that had the same Leyland drop centre axle but used the rationalised Leyland pneumocyclic gearbox.

Michael Elliott

12/04/13 – 07:58

As well as allowing them to retain their names and liveries, NGT’s management of its subsidiaries also encouraged them to order what they wanted, rather than something head office said they should have; and so it was that in 1963 Tynemouth and District took a completely different course to the rest and became the first depot to take delivery of the CRG6LX Daimler Fleetline. They had 35 in total, the first 15 were Weymann bodied.
1963 – HFT 366/75 – 266/75 H44/35F
1964 – JFT 276/80 – 276/80 H43/32F
The stair layouts accounts for the different capacities.

JFT 280 is shown here in its original livery and is from the 1964 intake. I’ve mentioned before that T&D had very high standards, so at the time the photo was taken 280 must have been due for a repaint, otherwise, that replacement side panel next to the rear wheels would never have been left like that. Note the layout of the stairs, to me they are the wrong way round, and I doubt if they would be allowed today. Anyone ascending them is going towards the rear of the vehicle rather than the front. In a worst case scenario, if someone is on the stairs and the driver for whatever reason has to brake sharply, they have only one way to go, and that is in the direction of down, whereas, on a more conventional layout they will either fall ‘up’ the stairs or end up on their backside sitting on them. Apart from the added risk factor, the seating capacity has been reduced by four, so I don’t see the point. perhaps whoever thought of it looked on it like the invasion of Russia ‘it seemed like a good idea at the time’

The remaining 20 had the superb H44/34F Alexander body.
1965 – AFT 783/9C – 283/9
1967 – DFT 290/2E – 290/2
1968 – EFT 693/702F – 293/302
If memory serves, the 1965 intake had electrically operated doors whilst the rest were air, but that apart their were very few differences between them. In 1966, T&D again broke ranks and adopted a much simplified version of the 1940/50’s NGT livery, other depots soon followed suit, and I believe one of the Routemaster’s is preserved in this livery. The 1968 intake were the last D/D’s ordered by T&D before they became part of NBC. As with all vehicles, some will swear by them while others swear at them, but very few drivers disliked them. The Fleetline were not the fastest buses in the depot, but they were perfect for stop/start town routes. The utterly reliable Gardner 6LX was arguably the best engine of its generation, and what it lacked in top speed, it more than made up for at the bottom, even with a full load, they were quick off the mark and never struggled to keep pace with traffic. The Alexander bodies were smart, well designed, and extremely well built; they had good all round vision with minimal blind spots, and switches and controls were all within easy reach, they also had a level of comfort that made them popular with both passengers and crew alike; The Daimler chassis had good brakes and light positive steering, it was very forgiving and exceptionally well behaved. This was a time when buses still had leaf springs, but the ride quality was as least as good as any of today’s buses. I left Percy Main shortly after the first AN68’s began to arrive, so my experience of them is limited, they were unquestionably better that the PDR1/1’s I had previously driven, but were they the best bus of their generation? The bus chassis division of British Leyland was an amalgam of AEC – Bristol – Daimler – Guy and Leyland, and while some would argue that the AN68 was a success because it sold in huge numbers, the creation of NBC meant it had a guaranteed market with little or no competition. Rather than being allowed to develop. BL saw the Olympian – Fleetline and FRM as rivals to the AN68 and couldn’t wait to kill them off, the same thing happened to any competition to the Leopard or National. I can only speak for myself. but for my money, up to 1975, the Alexander Daimler Fleetline, was, and still is the best rear engine bus I have ever driven.

Ronnie Hoye

12/04/13 – 12:17

Ronnie, re the stairs see my article Days Out with Martin Hannett.
Michael, I’ve done a check back and it seems that there are a number of instances in print from the time that allude to the axle being Daimler but The Leyland Bus states categorically that the axle WAS Leyland. The rest of the drive change was made by Daimler and was modified as you indicate. Thanks for the correction.
A bit more digging shows that the Daimler gear box was built to a design by Self Changing Gears, which Leyland owned, so Lyons was basically selling Leyland a product it actually owned – clever!

Phil Blinkhorn

12/04/13 – 14:43

With reference to Ronnie’s remarks on the orientation of the stairs on front entrance double deck buses, I recall travelling home to Jarrow from North Shields after a night watch. Having almost dozed off on the top deck I realised that the bus was approaching my stop and I needed to move with haste. From memory, and it was a long time ago now, I rushed down the forward facing stairs as the driver negotiated a slip road and braked for the stop with the result that I was propelled towards the exit at a rate of knots. Fortunately the bus stopped and the doors opened so that I was ejected on to the pavement past the waiting passengers without further incident, though some of the people waiting were neighbours who were a bit surprised at my sudden arrival. So I can only endorse the remarks about the dreaded “health and safety” and the positioning of the staircase.

Stan Zapiec

12/04/13 – 17:14

Yes, Stan – forward-facing stairs were always a safety hazard, but at least (in the case of the Fleetlines you referred to) a flying passenger would tend to hit the bulkhead behind the driver. On the infamous Wulfrunians, with their nearside forward-facing staircases, a passenger could end up straight through the windscreen. I have memories of being propelled forward on a number of occasions following an over-enthusiastic brake application. This, combined with their distinctive rolling and pitching movement, made life very interesting for unsuspecting passengers.

Paul Haywood

13/04/13 – 07:43

I’m not sure when forward ascending staircases were introduced on rear engine chassis. All the PMT double deckers up to and including the 1965 Alexander bodied Fleetlines were rearward ascending. Sheffield used rearward ascending until dual door double deckers became standard from 1969. In Huddersfield it was only the introduction of dual entrance bodies in 1970 that first saw the use of forward ascending ones. I suspect this was common with many other Operators. Once the fad for dual entrance buses faded the forward ascending type become the norm on single doorway buses.

Ian Wild

13/04/13 – 07:44

According to Alan Townsin, Phil, the Daimatic direct selection gearbox fitted to CV and Fleetline chassis was entirely a Daimler design which differed internally from the original Wilson principles, notably in respect of the brake bands. It is possible that these changes were made to avoid claims that the gearbox was a copy of the 1954 SCG gearbox design used by Leyland (Pneumocyclic) and AEC (Monocontrol). Self Changing Gears was not fully controlled by Leyland until 1957 when it bought a third of the company’s shares from Hawker Siddeley to add to the third it had owned since 1951. The Daimatic gearbox had weaknesses that were never fully resolved, and the much criticised redesign undertaken later by Leyland was an attempt to remedy some of the problems. On the subject of the relative merits of early Atlantean and Fleetline buses, in 1965 London Transport decided to evaluate the rear engined / front entrance concept, and, with fully characteristic open mindedness, ordered fifty Atlanteans and just eight Fleetlines. When the Fleetline revealed its superiority, the LT engineering top brass would not accept the evidence, claiming that Fleetline in Country Area service received a much easier life than the Central Area Atlanteans. The eight Fleetlines then went to the Central Area in exchange for eight Atlanteans which were duly despatched to the Country Area. In the Central Area, the Coventry product demonstrated its superiority even more convincingly, and the pro Leyland prejudice collapsed like a punctured balloon. Not that LT learned a great deal in the end – it then went sleepwalking into the DMS fiasco.

Roger Cox

13/04/13 – 07:45

Paul although the Wulfrunian was an idiosyncratic chassis. However the nearside staircase was also used by Tyne and Wear on their dual doored Atlantean.

Chris Hough

13/04/13 – 07:45

Surely all early front-entrance double deckers, and all forward-entrance ones, had rearward-ascending staircases, didn’t they? The first ones with forward-ascending were those with centre exits. In the meantime Manchester had invented the curved staircase (I think that was on the second batch of Fleetlines) in place of the original type with two right angles. Not only was this felt to be safer, but, since one-man operation of double-deckers wasn’t even on the horizon then, the inside of the curve gave the conductor somewhere to stand.

Peter Williamson

13/04/13 – 10:09

Roger, that information from Alan Townsin conflicts with that published in The Leyland Bus.
To quote Doug Jack on page 325:
“It was also necessary to replace the normal Atlantean gearbox by using a similar gearbox built by Daimler to SGC designs…. The use of an apparently Daimler gearbox was acceptable because Leyland had owned Self Changing Gears since 1956. However the Coventry subsidiary continued to build gearboxes for Leyland’s competitors and indeed allowed Daimler, AEC and Bristol to manufacture under licence.”
Whilst Alan is indeed a well respected expert, Doug Jack worked at Leyland from 1966 eventually becoming legal advisor and then Secretary of the Truck and Bus Division. The Leyland Bus was first published in 1977 whilst he was still Secretary so, presumably, he had full access to the company records.

Phil Blinkhorn

13/04/13 – 12:09

Not in our case, Peter, I’ve listed all Percy Main’s early Atlantean’s and Fleetline’s above, and only five ‘JFT 276/280’ had this type of staircase, the remainder had the more normal type where you are going towards the front when you go upstairs

Ronnie Hoye

13/04/13 – 18:37

Sorry folks, before anyone puts finger to key, I stand, or rather sit corrected. a quick memory check says the Atlanteans and Weymann bodied Fleetline’s both had rear ascending stairs, but I’m sure the Alexander bodies were forward facing, and had a luggage rack behind the driver which was over the wheel arch and under the stairs. The problem with 276/80 was that rather than two 90 degree turns, the stairs had a longer 180 degree half circle, so in effect there was nothing to stop anyone from falling from top to bottom

Ronnie Hoye

13/04/13 – 18:38

The problem I could add with forward ascending can be seen today- loss of space downstairs & that mysterious panelled space under the stairs. Driver’s bunk? What you gain in safety on the stairs you lose when “lower saloon” passengers are pitched forwards by the g force of dodgem driving. The old Roe platform staircase seemed very safe, as you fell onto a large half landing when unbalanced by the acceleration of a PD1…..

Joe

13/04/13 – 18:38

Sheffield’s early (1959-1968) Atlanteans and Fleetlines were all rear ascending.

David Oldfield

14/04/13 – 08:13

Didn’t some late-model Bristol-ECW Lodekka FLFs have forward ascending staircases? Would they have been the 31ft models? The evidence/answer must be on my bookshelves, but I’m away from home at the moment . . . I seem to remember rearward ascending staircases on Halifax/Calderdale NCME-bodied Fleetlines, then forward ascending staircases on WYPTE standard Roe-bodied Fleetlines and NBC Park-Royal/Roe Atlanteans, but ECW remaining faithful to rearward staricases on VRTs at least, and I think Atlanteans.

Philip Rushworth

14/04/13 – 08:13

It all just goes to show that buses with doors at the front and engines at the back are flying in the face of nature. It was never meant to be!

Stephen Ford

14/04/13 – 18:24

Phil, I note your comments, but all the preselector and two pedal semi auto gearboxes prior to the invasion of Allison, Voith and ZF type transmissions were built using the established epicyclic principles of Major Walter Wilson, who founded what later became Self Changing Gears with J.D.Siddeley in 1928, under the original name of Improved Gears. Leyland had no input, other than a financial holding from 1951 onwards, into those established designs, which were licensed to AEC, Daimler, Guy and Leyland, plus a number of car manufacturers. Leyland, like Daimler, may have chosen to modify some aspects of the design internals to suit its requirements, and the actuating system did differ between individual manufacturers, but the fundamental epicyclic gearing principle was wholly Wilson’s. Leyland took control of SCG in 1957, the year of Major Wilson’s death, not 1956, so the Leyland Journal has a factual error there. Sadly, the 1960s were a time when Leyland’s megalomania was at its height, so it comes as no surprise that it should endeavour to claim credit for almost everything under the sun during those years.

Roger Cox

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

15/04/13 – 07:24

On the subject of gearboxes, Roger, some of the early Atlanteans had an alarming habit of trying to break the high jump record whenever first gear was engaged from stationary. The way to counteract this was to engage second, then when you felt the gear go in, go straight through into first. Not best practice I admit, but it worked.

Ronnie Hoye

15/04/13 – 07:26

Roger, all you say about the genesis of the gearboxes is correct but I think you are missing the point I’m making. Leyland owned 100% of Self Changing Gears in 1964 so the purchase of a gearbox built under licence by a then competitor, the licence being granted by a company Leyland 100% owned, seems both a nonsense and a coup for Jaguar.
Is there any reason the SCG could not have built the boxes for the Atlantean themselves?
As to the date of Leyland’s 100% ownership, it seems curious that Doug Jack, given his position in Leyland at the time he first published what is acknowledged to be THE definitive volume on the Leyland Bus, didn’t correct his statement in either the 1984 or 1992 editions as, by the time the latter was published, he had had 15 years to correct his “error” and thousands would have had chance to point it out.
I wonder if there is some misunderstanding somewhere of arrangements between the parties and the formal, legal transfer.
As to Leyland’s megalomania, I think it very unfair to tar the company with that brush throughout the 1960s. When the “real” Leyland Motors bought into or bought out companies, it was part of the usual cut and thrust of competitive business. The megalomania only came in with the setting up of British Leyland which was a nonsense in every respect and would have been equally so had there been no car division. What the Wilson Government seemed to want to achieve is what Attlee failed to do in the nationalisation of 1948, i.e. nationalise the production of road transport vehicles along side the nationalisation of the greater part of the geographical spread of the public transport providers in the UK

Phil Blinkhorn

15/04/13 – 17:50

I cannot agree with your view of the underlying reason for the formation of BLMC in 1968. At that time, BMC was close to disintegration through inept economic management – for example, the Mini sold for less than it cost to produce – and poor market perception. Fearful of the wider economic effects of industrial collapse in much of the West Midlands, the Wilson government persuaded Donald Stokes to take over BMC. It formed no part of a longer term desire to nationalise road vehicle production, and Attlee certainly had no such objective. The subsequent state takeover became a necessity for survival when the BLMH empire in turn faced failure. The later Heath government, despite its trumpeted Selsdon “lame duck” policy, took a similar view when Rolls Royce faced collapse in 1971, and full nationalisation again seemed the only answer. The ultimate Leyland story is one of the great ‘might have beens’, but economic policies are always easier to apply with the benefit of hindsight.
Back on the gearbox discussion, Daimler had been making vehicle preselectors under SCG licence since 1930, and unquestionably contributed greatly to the financial security of the SCG company. In addition to its own vehicles, Daimler supplied the gearboxes for the London AEC fleet until Southall was able to manufacture for itself. Possibly, by the late 1950s, Leyland recognised the great experience of the Daimler company, and bought in these units rather than expand in house production which might have led to initial teething troubles. We can but conjecture.

Roger Cox

16/04/13 – 08:16

Without wanting to turn this thread into a debate on the history of UK politics, Attlee was elected in 1945 on a platform of nationalisation based on the later notorious Labour party Clause 4. Road transport was an area which proved particularly thorny to nationalise. As early as the end of 1945 the Cabinet dropped any thought of nationalising the vehicle industry en masse, hard fought campaigns by BET and municipal transport departments reduced the intended coverage of the 1947 Act so that the only chassis manufacturer to be included was Bristol and only the Tilling Group and London Transport were nationalised.

Phil Blinkhorn

CIE – Leyland Atlantean – VZI 300 – D300

Copyright Brendan Smith

CIE (Coras Iompair Eirann)
1969
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
CIE/Metal Sections H43/31D

To contrast with the view of Atlantean D353 already posted on the website, is this one of of sister vehicle D300. It is seen in the original dark blue and cream livery, which was phased out in favour of the all over sand-coloured scheme in 1974. The bus is seen if memory serves correct, in the city of Cork in the late 1970’s. The beautifully quaint destination of ‘Statue’ is wonderful, but then again, the locals will no doubt know which one and where it is…..

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith

24/04/13 – 07:52

This vehicle still has the original lower front panel with mouldings around the headlights, and spotlights (compare with the photograph of D353) – anybody know why the modification was subsequently made? And I remember reading years ago – it must have been in a late 70s/early 80s Buses Annual – that these Atlanteans had “top deck header tanks” . . . to what purpose? As an aside, at the nadir of CIEs’s fortunes between the last Van Hool Atlanteans and the delivery of the first Bombardiers it used to be said that CIE was an acronym for “Cycling Is Easier” – though by the time I had cause to use Iarnrod Eireann/Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus services regularly (early 1990s) things had markedly improved. Anyway, you couldn’t call this an attractive design of body but at least its different, in a “functionally brutal” sort of way – I think it’s got more going for it than, say FRM1 which was 50s half-cab styling dumped on a rear engined chassis, in so far as it pushes design and tries to be different.

Philip Rushworth

24/04/13 – 11:27

If I remember correctly the replacement front panels were the result of accident damage and were fabricated in CIE’s own works – and simplicity being the watchword.

Phil Blinkhorn

25/04/13 – 07:36

Yes, Brendan, you’re right, this is Cork. The bus is heading north up Grand Parade towards the landmark “Father Mathew” statue which had been a city terminal point since tramway days. Nice to see this bus in its original blue and cream livery.

Paul Haywood

Glasgow Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – FYS 998 – LA1

Glasgow Corporation
1958
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Alexander H44/34F

The picture, which appears to be a pre delivery shot, shows Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1, LA1 delivered to Glasgow Corporation Transport in 1958. It was registered FYS 998 and had an Alexander H44/34F body.
The Alexander body was described at the time as ‘boxy’ and remained the only body of this style with Glasgow. Alexander and GCT worked together after this, to design a more rounded and pleasing body to a new “Glasgow Style” a design which won favour from other Bus operators, around the UK.
LA1 was allocated to Ibrox Garage where it spent the majority of its time in service.
The legal lettering shows the General Manager to be Mr. E.R.L. Fitzpayne. He became Manager in 1943 after being Assistant Manager, and remained in post until 1969 when he retired.
LA1 is now in preservation.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

14/11/13 – 06:00

Newcastle Corporation had quite a number of very similar vehicles, although the front panel was different and theirs had twin headlights. The first 14 came in 1961 the fleet numbers were the same as the registration, and they were 187 – 189/201 JVK (188 had a Metro Cammell body) then 11 more in 1961, 214/224 JVK. 221 is alive and well and part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection and can be seen on their site. However, they werenâ€™t the first Alexander bodied Atlanteans in the area, the NGT group took delivery of 15 in 1960, KCN 181/9 were for Gateshead and 601/7 EUP went to Sunderland District. Again the body had a different front panel, and the top two thirds of the drivers windscreen was swept back.

Ronnie Hoye

14/11/13 – 06:00

Sheffield 369 was a one off identical Atlantean, shoved onto the end of Sheffield’s small initial batch of 1959 Met Camm Atlanteans and before a further short batch of Met Camms. 20 Alexander Regent Vs followed a year later in 1960. It would be 1972 until the next Alexander deckers arrived – on Fleetline chassis – although some Y type Leopards snuck in in 1968. This would be the beginning of a long love affair between STD and then SYPTE and Alexanders – ending only when First Group took over control of Mainline. [Continuing their historic practise of dual sourcing, during the Alexander years this would be East Lancs – including Dennis Dominators to SYPTE style which even closer to R types than the usual run of Alexander East Lancs clones.

David Oldfield

14/11/13 – 06:00

It would appear that Sheffield Corporation was somewhat unimpressed by the Glasgow Style as No. 369 was the only Alexander Atlantean bought in this design in 1960. It was to be some twelve years before Sheffield called upon Alexander for bodies on rear engined Daimler and Atlantean chassis.

John Darwent

14/11/13 – 09:44

When the new Riverside Museum Opened at Glasgow there was no room for this bus or the BUT/Burlingham Trolleybus. I do not think the new museum is a patch on the previous Kelvin Hall Collection. There is not as much room as there was but at least some of the trams are shown.

Philip Carlton

14/11/13 – 13:40

I rode on Sheffield 369 on the Outer Circle and wondered why there was odd Alexander-bodied one. I seem to recall it had an odd destination layout at the back.
Glasgow LA1 competes with Wallasey 1 and James of Ammanford 227 for the distinction of being the first production Atlantean – all are shown as entering service in 12/58. No doubt it depends on definitions. We can safely say that LA1 was the first in Scotland!

Geoff Kerr

14/11/13 – 16:50

Your memory serves you well Geoff. 369 had a full Sheffield set on the rear albeit downside up so to speak.

John Darwent

14/11/13 – 17:42

Funny how we remember these details for 45 years. Lucky you photographed the rear, John, as not many did!

Geoff Kerr

14/11/13 – 17:42

The strange thing is that it looks like no other Alexander body before or since. Godfrey Abbott also had a couple – but I cannot remember whether they were bought new or second hand.

David Oldfield

14/11/13 – 17:58

According to The Leyland Bus The first four production chassis were as follows:
The Wallasey chassis was the first numerically, followed by one for Maidstone and District, then the Glasgow vehicle and finally the one for James of Ammanford. However the Glasgow chassis left the works for the body builders a day before the others and was eventually the first into service after appearing at the 1958 Commercial Show.

Phil Blinkhorn

15/11/13 – 06:28

Re Sheffield 369 – I don’t recall short workings on the 53 to Scarsdale Road, I suppose it would be the bus replacement equivalent of the Woodbank Crescent short workings of the trams. How did the buses turn at Scarsdale Road?

Ian Wild

15/11/13 – 06:29

Glasgow LA1 in the Glasgow Transport Museum

Stephen Howarth

15/11/13 – 08:31

The original colour scheme on the Glasgow Atlantean was much more balanced than its final scheme. Regarding the Sheffield indicator layout, referring again to The Leyland Bus, there is a rear view of Sheffield 922, one of the second batch with MCW bodies, which shows a two panel rectangular destination and via display, one above the other, set to the nearside and a small rectangular service number panel set to the offside and placed on a level so the centre of that panel was level with the gap between the two larger panels – a much neater and, I seem to recall, standard layout.

Phil Blinkhorn

15/11/13 – 08:31

Easy, Ian. Turn right at lights, left at Dale/Woodseats Road and left again at top of Woodseats Road – where 75/76 already emerged to turn right to go to Meadowhead, Norton or Bradway. I have never seen a short to Scarsdale either, but it was a timing point – and an annoying one. As a student, I would often arrive in Sheffield at 2020 off the X48 18:30 ex Manchester LMS – in the days when the 42/53 was OMO to Lowedges Road with 33’0″ PDR2/1 Park Royals. One-manning was time expensive during the day but at night with few, if any passengers, these magnificent machines could shift and easily get ahead of themselves. A ten minute stop, when I wanted to get home, was not an uncommon occurrence. [Of course, intelligent scheduling could have overcome this.]

David Oldfield

16/11/13 – 08:47

Phil, Sheffield 916-932 of 1960 were the only Atlanteans with this rear destination arrangement. The following batch 933-944 of 1962 reverted to a rear triple route number only but with main and via blinds side by side above the forward lower saloon windows. The displays at the rear of 916 etc quickly fell into disuse (as did those on 369) and the destination glasses were soon panelled over. Thanks David for Scarsdale Road shorts turning – I was confusing Scarsdale Road and Derbyshire Lane.

Ian Wild

16/11/13 – 11:30

If memory serves, a foolish thing to do at my age, the early Newcastle Atlanteans had a rear destination blind, and the bonnet had a drop down step to gain access to the handle to change it, as you can imagine this was highly popular, and more often than not the blind remained blank. I seem to think that the rear number plate was moved to that spot, which tended to make it look disproportionately large.

Ronnie Hoye

17/11/13 – 06:54

Ronnie, thank you for your fascinating commentary about the early Newcastle Atlanteans. I believe that 187 and 188 were delivered in 1960 and these were followed in 1961 by a batch of 25 with bodywork split between Alexander (13) and Weymann (12). I had long been puzzled by the abnormally large rear registration plates on Atlanteans 189-238 and your memory has solved something that had me puzzled for the best part of 48 years. Well, I never!
I would add that Belfast Corporation took an early Atlantean with this style of Alexander bodywork, number 551 registered 5540 XI.

Kevin Hey

17/11/13 – 09:44

Ronnie, the drop down step was a standard feature on early Atlanteans. It was a metal plate and can be clearly seen in the picture of Sheffield 369 above interrupting the topmost of the three mouldings at the bottom of the engine compartment, just below the Atlantean badge.

Phil Blinkhorn

17/11/13 – 14:09

I remember these “footplates” they were often left down. Was it customary then to ride on them thus leading to their demise?

Joe

18/11/13 – 16:43

At first sighting, I thought the batch of Sheffield Atlanteans 915-932 were quite something, with that full set of destination blinds at the rear they really stood out. When new they were put on the 17 between Dobcroft Road at Millhouses and Sheffield Lane Top, which route passed the end of my grandmother’s road, and that high pitched sound they made, rather reminiscent of a giant vacuum cleaner I always thought, was unmistakeable as I listened for them making their way along Owler Lane until late at night. They had that distinctive pitching and yawing motion down pat too, as they pulled into the stops, which was ironically not unlike the trams that had run along the same stretch of roadway just a year or so before.

Dave Careless

19/11/13 – 05:45

Re my comments on the 16th, Sheffield 916-932 were not the only Atlanteans with rear destinations and route numbers. I’d forgotten the 1962 JOC deliveries had this arrangement as well, 1350-1358 (B fleet) and 1163-1165 (C fleet). It was the 1962 A fleet 933-944 which eliminated the rear destinations leaving route numbers only.

Ian Wild

19/11/13 – 08:22

Thanks Ian, I thought there had been more with that indicator layout than in your original post as they stuck in my mind from my visits across the Pennines in the 1960s.

Phil Blinkhorn

19/11/13 – 12:06

I’m fairly sure the 1959 batches of Atlanteans, 363 – 8 and 881 – 899 (xxx WJ) just had a route number box at the rear. Funny how we’ve ended up in Sheffield again, after starting in Glasgow!

Geoff Kerr

19/11/13 – 13:58

Geoff, you are quite correct – as is Ian that the last full blind rears were on the 1962 B and C fleet Atlanteans. The A fleets (as well as the first Fleetlines 951-953) reverted to number only displays.

David Oldfield

20/11/13 – 05:40

Whilst looking through some old slides a couple of days ago, I came across this shot of the rear of ex Newcastle Atlantean 193JVK which illustrates Ronnie’s comment about the oversized space occupied by the registration number. Not sure who added the reflective number plate though! No drop down step though. The photograph was taken in the summer of 1975, on the premises of Fowlers of Holbeach Drove the bus was in the livery of Parks of Hamilton, presumably newly acquired by Fowler.
The REO also in the picture, AG 6470, has I think, since been restored.

Bob Gell

20/11/13 – 06:47

…..but remember, Bob, that early Atlantean engine cowls were notoriously fragile. They were a complete unit and very prone to damage – needing replacement. 193 JVK possibly had just such a replacement. [On later Atlanteans only the middle section raised – and the ends swung out.]

David Oldfield

20/11/13 – 09:27

Have to say, in retrospect, apart from the unfortunate sad look at the front, it’s not a bad looking bus. Bit of a pity they didn’t follow through and improve on this rather than what they did. I quite liked the look of the AL with peaks (STD) and the R type, though quality was a little suspect on the latter. [Never came across an R type that wasn’t swimming in water on the floor during and after a rainfall.]

David Oldfield

20/11/13 – 11:19

David, I have to agree with your comments re LA1. I well remember seeing my first Atlantean in Stoke on Trent a week or so after the first deliveries. Apart from the shock of the new, in the context of the time, both the MCW and Alexander offerings were reasonably good looking. Where I disagree is about what followed. Whilst the Alexander balloon roof did not suit all the body styles (front engined vehicles looking the worst), the Glasgow examples were OK but the lowbridge version looked very stylish and avant garde, especially compared to everything else that was around at the time. In my area, North Western’s examples put everything else in the shade from the moment they appeared, and that included the Renowns which were delivered at the same time.
On another topic, didn’t Leyland change the engine shroud after the introduction of the Fleetline which had a hinged bonnet section as opposed to the cowl having to be removed as a whole, Daimler having learned from the problems the original Atlantean shroud was causing.
Regarding Geoff Kerr’s comment about Sheffield I think that Mr Oldfield is here under an alias. His real name is Forcefield. His love of all things Sheffield reminds me of a great friend of mine, one time Tourism and Conference Officer for Sheffield, Keith Cheetham, who would and could turn any conversation to Sheffield “The City in the Golden Frame”. David has a similar influence which he manages to project through the electronic media and this site is all the better for it!

Phil Blinkhorn

20/11/13 – 12:04

How kind (I think) Mr Blinkhorn.

David Oldfield

20/11/13 – 13:51

Comment was made with the best of intentions David.

Phil Blinkhorn

20/11/13 – 13:52

Again, from memory, I seem to think that by the time they were withdrawn from service, none of Newcastles Atlanteans still had a one piece bonnet, and they had all been replaced by the type mentioned by David.

Ronnie Hoye

20/11/13 – 15:49

I know it was, Phil…..

David Oldfield

20/11/13 – 16:37

David, your comments relating to the Atlantean one-piece engine cowl are interesting, as Bristol also opted for a one-piece job when it introduced the VRT. Just as on the early Atlanteans, the original VRT cowls were somewhat flimsy affairs, and were similarly prone to damage. The cowl was hinged under the rear lower deck window and was fastened at the sides by Triumph Herald-type bonnet catches. Unfortunately the catches didn’t always fasten as they should, sometimes leading to sides ‘flapping’ and cracking. A more sensible three-piece design soon replaced the original thank goodness, but considering how long the Atlantean had been in production before the VRT came along, it’s somewhat surprising that Bristol hadn’t learned from the problems encountered earlier by Leyland.

Brendan Smith

21/11/13 – 05:45

The mention of ‘being able to turn all things to Sheffield’ made me wonder if I had put the wrong picture on here?

Stephen Howarth

21/11/13 – 05:45

A bit of the classic “not invented here” syndrome !

Stephen Ford

28/09/16 – 07:00

First saw LA1 at a motor show in Kelvin Hall in the 1950s. Became bus driver in 1965 at 21 and worked at Parkhead garage where I drove LA1 often. It was the only LA with the split screen as all others had full screen at least up to 1969 when I left.

James Dearie

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

22/10/18 – 06:00

The Glasgow LA1 is based at the Glasgow Vintage Vehicle Museum (Open day Oct 18) and they have just produced a book on the Glasgow Transport’s love of the Atlanteans which are 60 this year

James

Southampton Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – OCR 149F – 105

Southampton Corporation
1968
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
East Lancs H45/31F

OCR 149F entered service with Southampton City Transport on 1 July 1968 as fleet number 105, (note – not Southampton Corporation Transport since elevation to City status in 1964. (But posted here under Corporation to keep the Southampton fleet postings under one heading.) This vehicle acted as a “prototype” for the other 19 of the batch, which entered service in September and October of that year. Despite this, the fleet list in the otherwise-excellent history by A K Macfarlane-Watt records her as OCR 149G but as can be seen below was clearly ‘F’ registered.

She is an Atlantean PDR1/1 with East Lancs H76F bodywork. She is seen in Portswood Road, parked outside the depot, on 31 August 1981. This was the final day of ‘conductor’ operation in Southampton (at least until Deregulation) except for the occasional failure in the system when a Fitter would be called upon to drive while an Inspector took the fares. I experienced this several times!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

26/01/14 – 17:33

It was at about this time that Leyland started sorting out the Atlantean’s problems. Between 1968 and 1972, improvements were made which culminated in the introduction of the AN68 in 1972. This is what the Atlantean should have been from the start and it became by far the best first generation rear-engined decker. The Daimler Fleetline was always a good bus and, after take over by LMC, replaced the dreadful disasters known as the PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans as Leyland’s low-height deckers. By offering both the Gardner and the Leyland engines, all bases were covered. Of course the AN68 eventually formed the backbone of both Southampton and Portsmouth fleets – and myriad others too.

David Oldfield

27/01/14 – 08:14

Thanks for this Pete. I’ve been doing some research into the end of crew operation around the UK and the previous information I had obtained (from where, I don’t recall) was that Southampton’s last crew routes were the 7 and 9 from Lordshill to Weston around 1984/5. So whilst that info is quite detailed, it’s substantially different from 31/08/1981. I’ll trust your date with your personal experiences!

Dave Towers

27/01/14 – 09:28

David O and Dave T, thanks for your comments. My first experience of a Daimler Fleetline was in Birmingham, going back to City Centre on the 55 route from Saltley after an interview: 3344. I thought then how much better it seemed to perform than the Atlanteans Ribble were using. The vehicle illustrated was simply “parked” and not taking part in the formal City Tour, with the Guy Arabs and Regent Vs all sporting clusters of balloons. Photos available of them if required! By 1984/5, we were very much into the driver only era, even with the local NBC operator, Hants & Dorset. The Routemasters introduced after Deregulation were withdrawn in January 1989.

Pete Davies

29/06/14 – 17:23

There seems to be some confusion about dates here. 31 August 1981 (a bank holiday) was the last day of operation of rear platform buses in Southampton, and was celebrated with a tour and commemorative tickets. Crew operation did, however, continue, but with Atlanteans, and I would think that 1985 would have been the correct date for the introduction of full OPO. In 1981, I was working at the Civic Centre (city hall) in an administrative capacity, but in 1983 I transferred to the Transport Department, and we still had conductors then – as Dave Towers correctly says, on the 7/9 group of services between Weston and the Lordshill/Aldermoor area.
The end of crew operation was accompanied by the introduction of the no change farebox system, which was considered in certain quarters to be an unwise decision in the period before deregulation. Given the time spent discussing this aspect of the change, I would be reasonably sure that the conductors continued until 1985.
Deregulation came in October 1986, and Southern Vectis started their competitive Solent Blue Line venture the following spring, with conductors and making great play of the fact that they gave change. SCT could not ignore that, and introduced Routemasters soon after. Later on, the preserved Regent V that had run the ‘last open platform bus’ tour (401) was transferred back to the bus operator from the Museums Department, and re-entered service. Some of us, who had travelled on that last open platform tour, wondered if we had a case for a refund!

Nigel Frampton

30/06/14 – 07:03

Thanks Nigel. I’ll change my spreadsheet back to “c. 1985” and hope that somewhere some more information may come to light!

Dave Towers

30/06/14 – 11:38

Welcome to the forum, Nigel. Do you still live in Shirley? I bow to your “insider” knowledge!

Pete Davies

01/07/14 – 06:49

Thanks for the welcome, Pete. No, not in Shirley any more – but in south west Germany, near to Freiburg!

Nigel Frampton

01/07/14 – 10:54

Be fair, Nigel, Shirley wasn’t THAT bad!

Chris Hebbron

Kevin

Yes, it was most definitely F and all the others were G, even though they were still 0CR with sequential numbers either side of 149. I first saw this “prototype” on display at the Southampton Show and was very excited about the new fleet numbering, although I was wondering what would happen when the numbers caught up to the remaining Guy Arabs 164 and 167 (when they did, of course, these were renumbered 64 and 67 respectively). I seem to remember that one of the next batch of Atlanteans, TTR —H was never delivered because it caught fire and there was forever a gap of one in the Fleet Numbers. Happy days!

Kevin

30/06/17 – 06:39

Kevin – you are quite correct in saying that one of the TTR-H Atlanteans was never delivered (it would have been number 123).
To be strictly correct, it was the bodyworks that caught fire, and several other vehicles were destroyed as well. The chassis of 123 was exported to Australia, where (if I recall correctly) it received a single deck body.

Nigel Frampton

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – KWJ 163D – 163

Sheffield Corporation
1966
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Neepsend H44/33F

There were 40 of these Atlanteans in Sheffield in two batches of 20. This is one of the second batch delivered with blue interiors and wheels together with three rotovents in each side of the upper deck in lieu of sliding windows. These were quite effective in extracting the tobacco fug without causing too much draught but must have been difficult to clean. A facing crossover on the Supertram network now adorns this location allowing trams to reverse in front of the cathedral. The cream and blue livery contrasts with the blackened facade of the National Provincial Bank. I liked these buses with the deep windows in each deck and a touch of modernity with the curved windscreens. Pity the transmission design was not more robust. There was a touch of local pride with the bodies being â€˜Built in Sheffield’. The photo was taken in 1967 when the bus was about one year old.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

02/03/14 – 08:19

The rotovents may have extracted smoke but they were worse than useless for providing ventilation in the heat of summer. It’s a moot point about the quality of either these or the contemporary Park Royal bodies as the transmission on the PDR1/2 gave the buses the violent shakes when the buses were at rest. This was even more pronounced if they were left in gear at a stop, traffic lights or give way signs.
Interesting operational point to ponder. The 88 went from Fulwood (one of the wealthiest parts of the city) to Roscoe Bank (a housing estate to the north – just short of Stannington). This was a common feature of cross-city routes – going from a wealthy suburb to a housing estate or a deprived &/or slum area (often in the East End). Did this happen in other towns and cities?

David Oldfield

02/03/14 – 15:42

I think I ought to defend the NatPro bank in this picture, Ian as like most buildings in Central Sheffield by that time, it looks cleaned, and is terracotta and stone. “blackened Facades” in post war Sheffield really were black- for years, people thought the Town Hall was built of coal.
As for vibrations, nothing but nothing can be worse than First’s Optare midibus on the Leeds Citybus route: at every pause, you can feel your brain being vibrated to mush. Progress- what progress?

Joe

03/03/14 – 07:35

Could anyone in the know prove or disprove the story that the wheels on Sheffield buses were red when Labour were in power and blue when the Tories were in power.
On the subject or routes running from rich to poor areas in Leeds the 2 and still run from affluent Roundhay to the vast Middleton estate in the south of the city

Chris Hough

03/03/14 – 07:36

Was this to Sheffield’s own specification, as most of the East Lancs and Neepsend output on rear engined double deckers seems to have been of the Bolton and Southampton style by this time?

Pete Davies

03/03/14 – 07:37

Have I read somewhere that Sheffield painted bus wheels according to the political party running the council? Red when Labour were in power and blue when the Tories were in charge? (the latter infrequently I would imagine)

Michael Keeley

03/03/14 – 07:38

What is the point of the blacked-out window “(not) illuminating” the staircase? Surely the point of a window is to allow light through – the only point of blacking a window out is to keep light out . . . so why build a blacked-out window in to start with?

Philip Rushworth

03/03/14 – 07:38

The pairing of services to rich and poor areas of a city to form a cross-city route may have been quite common for geographical reasons. In a typical city, richer and poorer suburbs have historically grown up on opposite sides of the centre because of the direction of the prevailing winds, the most desirable places to live being upwind of industrial pollution sources. And the most typical cross-city services tend to go from one side of the city to the other.
Fulwood to Roscoe Bank probably did not fall clearly into this pattern – both termini being basically west of centre – but I don’t know if other Sheffield services did.

Peter Williamson

03/03/14 – 15:13

Apparently the first Sheffield vehicle with blue wheel hubs was Atlantean/Park Royal No. 340, exhibited at the Earl’s Court Motor Show in 1963/4.

Geoff Kerr

03/03/14 – 16:01

Peter- this idea of joining places for routes across a city works well in its simplest form: but you wonder sometimes if it gave all drivers (and their buses) a share of the nice, quieter bits or even if the poorer areas subsidised the richer- who still had to be served. Sheffield (and Huddersfield and some other places) is not what it seems on a map. Steep river valleys mean that places in different valleys look close but are a long way apart by bus, if it has to go into town down one valley then out again up another. A trap for the unwary modern bus executive, in a safe office, miles away.
Philip- I think blacked out windows did let light in- the glass is black, not painted- think of those sinister black Saturday night specials (but now illegal up front).
And, all, I think it was thought that the blue wheels co-incided too co-incidentally with the Tories actually gaining power- but it was such an odd happening that I think people let them have their moment of glory!

Joe

03/03/14 – 16:59

Most of Sheffield’s main cross-city bus services were based on the tram routes they replaced, and over the years the tramway network had been gradually extended to serve the large housing estates as they were developed in the 1920’s and 30’s, and linking them to the industrial area of the east end where the vast majority of Sheffielders went to work every day.
One of the last extensions to the tramway system, if not the very last, was along Abbey Lane, a highly desirable area of the city where the trams ran in a central reservation amid much greenery and overall affluence. In fact, to highlight what a city of contrasts Sheffield is, the last route to be converted to buses ran from Beauchief, the site of a ruined abbey at one end of Abbey Lane, through the city centre to the aptly named Vulcan Road, a siding amid acres of forges, steelworks and soot-blackened terraced houses. And as if to add insult to injury, the cars passed right by Wards yard in Attercliffe on the way, where they were eventually reduced to scrap metal to feed those very same blast furnaces.

Dave Careless

03/03/14 – 17:03

Yes. Roscoe Bank and Fulwood are close as the crow flies – but that is up to Lodge Moor, across Rivelin Valley and down from Stannington. By 88, the distance is at least double – if not more. The route shape is more like a (open ended) paper clip with the U turn in town. The current 25 (Bradway – Woodhouse) is like a letter A. South West, North to Town and then South East.

David Oldfield

04/03/14 – 07:11

On the subject of desk wallahs not knowing the terrain a classic was the Northern Health Authority which was formed because the east and west coasts were only a few miles apart unfortunately they forgot about the Pennines!

Chris Hough

04/03/14 – 07:12

It’s difficult to tell from the photograph but were these vehicles built to normal height, i.e. 14ft 6in? If they were, then presumably the reason for specifying the PDR1/2 chassis to achieve a flat floor on the lower deck . I know Sheffield had only a minimal requirement for low height/lowbridge double deckers, surely they wouldn’t have ordered forty of them?

Chris Barker

04/03/14 – 08:26

Off the top of my head, I think that in 1966 STD had 99 (a memorable but odd number of) PDR1/2s. The balance had full height Park Royal bodies. I seem to remember that the Neepsend bodies were lower height – but how much lower I don’t know – or whether they were low-height in the accepted sense.

David Oldfield

04/03/14 – 08:28

These buses could fit under the bridge on the old 70 route to Upton, hence they were to a slightly lower overall height.
Fulwood may well be posh, but Stannington isn’t exactly the depths of poverty! It is one of Sheffield’s more desirable council estates. Roscoe Bank has now morphed into Hall Park Head after the terminus moved further up the hill as housing expanded.
The Conservatives were only in power for one year and the wheels were painted from red to blue. However, at certain times, bus wheels have been black as well as blue. It is also worth pointing out that the red line below the bottom blue band only ceased to be applied after the signwriter retired. These days, you would apply it in vinyl.

Neil Hudson

04/03/14 – 12:04

The design was not unique to Sheffield. Bury, Warrington and Coventry had identical or almost identical bodies on vehicles of the same period.
Blacked out windows did let in light but were opaque from the outside for purposes of “modesty” given their position.

Phil Blinkhorn

04/03/14 – 12:05

This style of East Lancs body was also bought by Warrington.

Chris Hough

04/03/14 – 12:05

Stannington is “very nice”. Had I not had to move south with work. Stannington was always high on the list of possible places to live.

David Oldfield

04/03/14 – 15:54

The blacked out window stopped people looking at passengers going up the stairs from the outside it did let a lot of light in just like ambulances and looked the part.

Dragon

05/03/14 – 07:05

Okay, so others bought this same design. Thanks, folks, but was it actually designed FOR an operator or was it the East Lancs/Neepsend ‘standard’ of the time, which some operators (such as Bolton and Southampton) chose not to use?

Pete Davies

05/03/14 – 16:20

Pete. As far as was possible, this was an East Lancs standard design. More to the point, it was well known that there really was no such thing as an East Lancs standard as they were prepared, more than any other coachbuilder, to build a bespoke design for anyone who asked. Bolton were a case in point who had their own individual designs. Southampton’s Atlanteans were really a more modern development or evolution of this earlier design.

David Oldfield

05/03/14 – 16:22

Bolton always incorporated their own ideas into their bodies by the time Southampton bought Atlanteans a single piece wrap round windscreen was standard as was a peak to the front dome.

Chris Hough

Maidstone Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – NKK 243F – 43

Maidstone Corporation
1968
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Massey H43/31F

Maidstone Corporation’s No 43 registration NKK 243F was a rather rare combination of Massey body on the Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 chassis with H43/31F seating being one of only thirty two rear engine chassis bodied by Massey Bros. Of this total Maidstone Corporation bought twenty all on Atlantean chassis No’s 27-46 and Colchester Corporation bought ten also on Atlantean No’s 45-54, the other two went to members of A1 Services of Ardrossan one on the only Daimler Fleetline chassis bodied by Massey which was followed by one on an Atlantean. All thirty two had the same seating layout as the photo’s subject.
Several of Massey’s regular customers who bought from them on front engine chassis chose not to go to them when rear engines became the order of the day which possibly contributed to the later merger with Northern Counties.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

20/04/14 – 09:32

By 1968 most bodybuilders were producing bodies with a more shaped frontal aspect on rear engined chassis but to my eye this is quite an attractive functionally boxy body, aided by a simple but effective livery.

Ian Wild

20/04/14 – 17:36

I Worked for Connor & Graham, Easington East Yorkshire in 1982 and we had three of them, I was told he bought two and later the dealer phoned and gave the third one free, the bodywork was very sound as it was used on school run from Sunk Island to Withernsea and to Hull on Saturday, I left in 1983 I think they were Maidstone Corporation Nos 28,29 and 31.

Phil Savin

21/04/14 – 06:22

I agree with Ian, although boxlike, I thought the Massey design was quite attractive and far better looking than some other builders designs where curved or wrap-round windscreens were indiscriminately ‘grafted’ on leaving some real ‘hotch potch’ end results. The livery also helps. Tasteful, traditional and practical.

Philip Halstead

21/04/14 – 06:23

Wigan had at least one AN68. Were there any more – for Wigan or anyone else?

David Oldfield

21/04/14 – 10:49

David
Northern Counties bought Massey Bros in 1967.
The final Massey deliveries to Wigan Corporation were Titans FEK1-9F in early 1968.
The first AN68s delivered to Wigan Corporation were NEK1-10K in August 1972.

Dave Farrier

22/04/14 – 05:04

Ah. Right. Obviously NCME then. Not to a Massey outline by any chance?

David Oldfield

24/04/14 – 08:18

London Country borrowed six of these buses during a period of acute vehicle shortage in 1977. They were operated out of Chelsham Garage on the busy 403 group of services across Croydon to Wallington. I rode on several of these at the time, and noted the high standard of internal finish of the Massey bodies, but the PDR1/1 Atlantean did struggle a bit on the long gradient up to Sanderstead Church. In the mid 1960s, Massey double deck design went from the extremely curvaceous to the excessively angular. The Pemberton firm was very late entering the rear engined double deck bus market, and this application of the perpendicular was its eventual offering. It would seem that, from then on, some structural componentry must have been common to rear engined and front engined double deck bus bodywork, because the latter type, hitherto very rounded, then became very squared up. It was as if the firm had become revitalised by memories of its markedly austere wartime utility designs. The bold angularity of these Atlanteans was not unattractive, but the vertical front screens must have given problems with internal reflections from the interior lighting during hours of darkness. I was never a convert to the insipid and rather grubby pale blue and cream livery. To my eye, the colours do not complement each other – the lighter colour would have looked better had it been white with black lining out – but Maidstone really should never have abandoned in the mid 1960s the magnificent ochre and cream livery that I recall adorning the trolleybuses when I was a child living in Kent during the late 1940s. Maidstone, once a proud operator, seemed to go progressively downhill in its metamorphosis from ‘Corporation’ through ‘Borough Council’ to the ultimate horror of ‘Boro’line’ with its truly ghastly blue and yellow, with red and white trim, so called “livery”.
Take a look at this if you don’t believe me. No prizes for guessing the perpetrator of this abominable colour scheme. No wonder the Boro’line outfit eventually went bust. //victoryguy.smugmug.com/Maidstone

Roger Cox

24/04/14 – 08:18

When NCME took over Massey, they moved into the former Massey factory and some subsequent NCME bodies showed a marked Massey influence, particularly around the front of the upper deck. None were identical to past Massey products, however.

Peter Williamson

09/08/17 – 16:58

There is a Leyland Atlantean with Massey body in Northern Ireland which is used as an “activity centre”. The vehicle spends most of the year in under cover storage but has re-emerged this summer. It is devoid of any identity but can only be an ex Colchester or Maidstone example. Did any of the C&G ones go to Ireland, or can anyone reveal more about what this vehicle may be.

Bill Headley

20/02/19 – 06:34

Did the identity of the Massey bodied Atlantean in Northern Ireland ever got established? I too liked the Massey bodied examples. They looked different from the Alexander, MCW, Roe, Northern counties etc.There aren’t many left.

Roy Wolstencroft

22/02/19 – 06:25

I have scrutinized Shane Conway’s excellent ‘Classic Irish Buses’ website and have been unable to find any trace of a Massey-bodied Atlantean. As you’ll gather, the site is pretty thorough. www.classicbuses.co.uk/+Leyland
Bill Headley (above) says that the one in Northern Ireland is devoid of any identity, but it must carry a registration plate, if only a Northern Irish one. Perhaps it could be identified from that.
How close is it possible to get to the said vehicle? There is likely to be some source of identification on it, somewhere.

David Call

Edinburgh Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – ESF 801C – 801

Edinburgh Corporation
1966
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Alexander H43/31F

This photo shows Edinburgh Corporation 801 ESF 801C taken in 1967, 801 was the corporation’s first Atlantean with Alexander H74F bodywork delivered in February 1966,it was I think the first double deck body with panoramic windows and may have been exhibited at the 1965 Scottish motor show at Kelvin Hall which could explain it’s 1966 delivery. The next batch 802-825 EWS 802-825D with identical Alexander bodies were delivered in October 1966 had the then normal short window bays and these were delivered shortly after 826-850 EWS 826-850 which were Leyland PD3A/2’s with Alexander H70F bodies, canny Scots hedging their bets perhaps.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

19/06/14 – 09:33

Beauty is in the eye, as they say. The big window version of the Alexander “Y” type, was arguably the best looking single deck Bus or D/P of its generation. However, as with the Southdown Queen Mary, for me the big window version of these just didn”t work. The NGT Group had a number of the small window versions, Newcastle Corporation had both large and smaller window types, they also had some rather strange large window types with the stairs on the “wrong” side, and a centre exit. After a series of accidents, the union refused to use the centre exit, and as the vehicles were due for overhaul, the doors were removed and extra seats fitted.

Ronnie Hoye

21/06/14 – 06:29

Centre exits seem to have been a passing fad of the late 1960s. What was the real issue with them, as they seem to be the norm in other countries? I’m aware from reading some of these postings that there were structural problems with some single deck dual door bodies. Or was the main thing that the unions didn’t like them, as Ronnie mentions?

Keith

21/06/14 – 08:55

There were structural problems on double deckers as well. SELNEC had problems in later life with Mancunians. There were problems with accidents and the unions, in the interest of their members, took against them. Meant to reduce time at stops by having all passengers disembark at the centre door, all too often they didn’t and many tried to board there leaving the driver trying to collect fares, deal with any form of pre paid passes and monitor the centre door as well as keeping an eye on the seats remaining, in a difficult position.
Multi doors work well elsewhere where either the bulk of fares are prepaid or there is a second crew member and where some form of load counting actually works – the technology of the time didn’t.

Phil Blinkhorn

21/06/14 – 15:21

Silly question, perhaps, but is it really a LEYLAND Atlantean? I ask because some for Scottish operators had ALBION badges, including Glasgow’s KUS607E which now resides at the St Helens museum.

Pete Davies

22/06/14 – 06:38

Yes this was definitely a Leyland Atlantean Pete as you can see the figure of Atlas on the badge whereas the Glasgow Albion badged Atlantean’s had the St Andrews cross in it’s place as can be seen on the attached photo of KUS 593E taken a couple of years later in central Glasgow.

Diesel Dave

22/06/14 – 09:05

I seem to remember that the Albion badge on the Atlantean was a Glasgow only spec.

Phil Blinkhorn

22/06/14 – 13:04

Thank you, Dave and Phil!

Pete Davies

23/06/14 – 06:33

It could be that it was more efficient to send several chassis in kit form to be assembled at the Albion works in Glasgow, and then onto Alexander to have the body fitted, rather than one at a time in completed form, after all, the Alexander works was at Falkirk, which is not that far from Glasgow. At the end of the day, any differences would probably be down to badge engineering.

Ronnie Hoye

16/08/14 – 05:49

The “Albion” Atlanteans supplied to Glasgow followed a batch of “Albion” PD3s. Leyland got the blame for deleting half the Albion range in the early 1950s after the Albion takeover, when in actual fact Albion were already in the process of doing just that when financial troubles caught up with them. The Albion badges were applied as a gesture to the Glaswegian population in an attempt to settle the ill-feeling.

Paul

17/08/14 – 07:35

Edinburgh and Lothian stuck with dual doors into the low floor era. The Leeds dual door buses gave 15 plus years of service. In later years they found themselves in such esoteric locations as Ilkley and Skipton following the absorption of WYRCC by Yorkshire Rider.

Chris Hough

Tynemouth and District Transport Co Ltd1960Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1Metro Cammell H44/34F

J Wood & Sons1965Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1Park Royal H41/33F

CIE (Coras Iompair Eireann)1970Leyland Atlantean PDR1A/1CIE/MSL H43/31D

Tynemouth and District1962Leyland Atlantean PD1/1Roe H44/33R

CIE (Coras Iompair Eirann)1969Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1CIE/Metal Sections H43/31D

Glasgow Corporation1958Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1Alexander H44/34F

Southampton Corporation1968Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1East Lancs H45/31F

Sheffield Corporation1966Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2Neepsend H44/33F

Maidstone Corporation1968Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1Massey H43/31F

Edinburgh Corporation1966Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1Alexander H43/31F

Tynemouth and District Transport Co Ltd
1960
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Metro Cammell H44/34F

J Wood & Sons
1965
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Park Royal H41/33F

CIE (Coras Iompair Eireann)
1970
Leyland Atlantean PDR1A/1
CIE/MSL H43/31D

Tynemouth and District
1962
Leyland Atlantean PD1/1
Roe H44/33R

CIE (Coras Iompair Eirann)
1969
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
CIE/Metal Sections H43/31D

Glasgow Corporation
1958
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Alexander H44/34F

Southampton Corporation
1968
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
East Lancs H45/31F

Sheffield Corporation
1966
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Neepsend H44/33F

Maidstone Corporation
1968
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Massey H43/31F

Edinburgh Corporation
1966
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Alexander H43/31F