East Midland Motor Services 1945 Guy Arab Roe L27/28
At first glance, this pair are identical, but not so. See the differing sizes, and positioning, of the headlamps, and also the deeper edge of the canopy on D37 (far Vehicle). These were delivered in 1945, then rebodied by Roe in 1954. I cannot be certain, but think that the seating capacity was L27/28R, both before and after. See also the paper stickers inside the lower saloon, perhaps telling of timetable changes, or advertising EMMS’ other services, sometimes advertising for drivers/conductors.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
14/04/13 – 08:23
Incredible, Les. Never seen these in original guise but have seen the rebodies. As usual, the new bodies were beautiful and beautifully made – but interestingly, they were quoted as being 26′ 9″ long. [Was this done simply by building the body longer, or was the chassis extended?] Roe rebuilt literally hundreds of war-time Guys and Daimlers but the sad thing is that few, if any, lasted more than ten years with their new bodies. East Midland, Tracky, County and Woolen spring readily to mind as do the, penny numbers of AECs and Daimlers for Sheffield A fleet.
David Oldfield
14/04/13 – 18:39
and of course, Sheffield Guy 45 David, rebuilt by Roe for the B fleet.
John Darwent
14/04/13 – 18:39
During the war official dispensation was given for the current 26ft. length limit for two-axle double deckers to be increased to 26ft. 9in. in the case of Guy Arabs, in order for the optional long Gardner 6LW engine to be fitted, by allowing it to project forwards in a ‘snout’ rather than have to move the front bulkhead back. As it happened, the majority of Arab II’s continued to be fitted with the shorter 5LW, but the elongated bonnet was used irrespective of which engine was fitted. All East Midland’s Arabs had the 5LW, so there would probably have been a lot of spare space behind those radiators.
John Stringer
14/04/13 – 18:41
They would be Arab I’s, but were they 5LW’s or 6LW’s? And Roe’s part in building austerity bus bodies was something I’d only recently discovered. Few of them ever seem to have made their way south of the Midlands. I certainly never saw one and it’s very much a recent discovery that they built any. Duple, Brush and Massey seemed the dominant builders and their quality was in that order, too, I’d hazard.
Chris Hebbron
15/04/13 – 07:44
East Midland took only twelve utilities during the war. The first, in 1941, was a Bristol K5G which went to North Western in 1946 in exchange for an Arab I/Roe. Next came two Arab I’s with Brush bodies, the remainder were all Arab II’s with Roe bodies. Interestingly, East Midland managed to obtain consecutive last numbers for the registrations throughout the war. Five of the Arab II’s received new Roe lowbridge bodies in 1954. There was a further Arab II which was taken over from Baker Brothers of Warsop in 1953 and also rebodied by Roe. All of them went in 1960 and six years does seem a sadly short life for a vehicle with a new body but of course the Atlantean was no doubt responsible for that. The question of the wartime length dispensation for the Guy Arab is an interesting one, production continued after the war with the Arab II, then the Arab III, all built to the extended length before the maximum dimension was increased to 27ft. So if it was an emergency wartime measure, how come the dispensation was never rescinded after the war, was it quietly forgotten about? It’s surprising someone didn’t ask, if Bristol and Daimler can accommodate the Gardner 6LW, why can’t Guy!
Chris Barker
15/04/13 – 07:44
Chris H: Jasper Pettie’s “Guy Buses in Camera” states the following: “[the first] 500 were known as the Arab MkI. Thereafter the Arab MkII was introduced, and all had the longer bonnet and outswept front mudguards which had featured only on the 6LW-engined MkI examples”. On that basis, if they are definitely MkI chassis, they must have had 6LW engines. If as John Stringer states all the East Midland Arabs had 5LW, then these are MkIIs. Caerphilly had at least one Roe utility ArabII, which survived as training bus until at least 1966. It has curved valances to the canopy and platform rather than the straight ones on the EM view, but this could have been a subsequent modification. BBF records it as rebuilt 1957, but the only obvious difference is that the front top deck windows are rubber-mounted, and there are two sliding windows per side on the lower and three on the upper deck.
Alan Murray-Rust
15/04/13 – 07:45
Chris… If you check Peter Gould’s lists, it was Doncaster’s wartime Roe bodied Regents that seemed to survive longest- Does anyone know why?
Joe
16/04/13 – 07:29
Joe At least three of the Doncaster Regents were to full peacetime standards being delivered in 1941 all of the Roe bus output for that year were to the same pre war spec. It is possible that the 1942 Doncaster Regent was also built to this standard using sored parts. Certainly Roe produced a full utility body by January 1942 albeit on so called unfrozen chassis for Yorkshire Woollen and Yorkshire Traction. As well as building utility bodies on Guy and Daimler chassis they also built a number of trolleybuses building 63 of the 438 buses produced.
Chris Hough
16/04/13 – 10:50
Thanks Chris. I recall that the survivors mostly had proper domes and smelt rather funny. The lists suggest that Doncaster took very few buses during the war and got rid of the Guys fairly quickly: anything with an AEC engine (Bristol, Daimler, AEC) hung on, and were usually Roe bodied. The trolley story is even thinner: a very few utilities, rebodied by Roe after the war (presumably the same bodies that found their way on to the post war Titans.)
Joe
19/10/13 – 18:00
East Midland Motor Services took over Baker Brothers in Warsop who run the Mansfield to Church Warsop service I am not sure if it went to Shirebrooke the garage was at the side of the Hare & Hounds pub, the relief road in Warsop as gone through the garage. They took over Trumans at Shirebrooke and built a larger garage which is now a furniture shop.
Arthur Williams
16/05/16 – 17:53
East Midland Motor Services had 6 depots in North Derbys and North Notts, Chesterfield, Shirebrook, Clowne,Worksop, Retford and a shared garage at Mansfield with Trent, they covered quite a large area going as far as Doncaster, in the 70s they changed colour from red to lime green, the Chesterfield depot is now a car sales, the Shirebrook depot is a furniture w/house Clowne is a car repair place, Worksop still survives. Mansfields is a car repair and petrol station, Retford I am not sure,
Mr Anon
19/05/16 – 06:22
New Street, Chesterfield, is car body repairs rather than car sales, although Stagecoach East Midlands retained offices there for quite a while after the buses had moved out.
Peter Williamson
19/08/16 – 14:12
I have seen photos of East Midland’s Albion Lowlanders in two liveries, red with a cream waistband and red with cream lower deck window surrounds. Can someone enlighten me on when these versions were in use?
Tim
20/08/16 – 05:52
Tim asked about the colour schemes of EM’s Lowlanders. I am not able to recall the timescales but can tell him that they were delivered in the maroon colour with a broad white band above the lower-deck windows.The fronts as I recall were unrelieved maroon. They also went through a period wearing what I think was the NBC leaf-green and white as well as the two red/cream options as described by Tim.
Les Dickinson
20/08/16 – 05:52
After Tim’s question about East Midland’s Lowlanders appeared under this heading I checked my picture collection but sadly do not have any of this subject, however Classic Bus No63 carried a four-page article all about them and in which there is a section headed ‘Transformations’ of which the following is an extract “Over the years, East Midland’s Lowlanders were subject to several transformations of their appearance. They entered service in the company’s dark red with single cream band…” and goes on to say that changes were made to include cream window surrounds and later still their appearance in NBC green was in 1973. The article contains five pictures though none showing the period with the greater use of cream relief. Despite the piece saying they entered service with a bold cream band, my own memory is of a white, not cream band. It could be my old grey cells playing tricks but I frequently travelled on these on East Midland’s route 3.
Les Dickinson
25/08/16 – 15:23
Thanks, Les. Most helpful and interesting. Tim.
Tim
16/02/22 – 07:04
Re. Mr Anon’s post; there was also an EMMS garage at Warsop. My dad was Driver in Charge at Worksop garage for a number of years in the 1960s.
Ideal Service (R Taylor & Son) 1925 Graham-Dodge Reynolds B20F
This is the oldest vehicle to date to appear on the Old Bus Photos website and what a shot it is, it was contributed by Robert Gomersall who is the great grandson of R Taylor who was the original proprietor of Ideal Service. They had three other Graham-Dodge vehicles in their fleet all delivered between 1925 and 1927, one other 20 seater and two 14 seaters. The two 14 seaters did not stay long both being sold on by 1929 this particular bus was sold to Oscroft of Goldthorpe in July 1933 and the other 20 seater was scrapped in 1935. The body was built by Reynolds of Barnsley of whom I know very little, any information would be gratefully received. Below just for reference are enlargements of the front and side destination boards.
In 1920, Dodge Brothers emerged as a leading builder of light trucks. Dodge Brothers cars ranked second place in American sales in 1920. Then both brothers died and the company started to stagnate. To help, Dodge entered into an agreement, whereby they marketed trucks built by Graham Brothers of Evansville, Indiana through their dealerships. [The three Graham brothers would later produce Graham-Paige and Graham Automobiles]. The Graham brothers, Joseph, Robert, and Ray, had began building trucks immediately after World War I, teaming up with Dodge Brothers in 1921 after the deaths of John and Horace Dodge in 1920. The Graham truck became the Dodge truck. In the end, having fallen to fifth place in sales, Dodge fell to Chrysler in 1925. However, these trucks continued to be marketed until 1929. Stratford Blue appear to have taken delivery of a couple in 1930 with unknown B14 bus bodies. My thanks to Neville Mercer and Chris Hebbron for the Ideal Service fleet history and the Dodge-Graham history.
Photograph contributed by Robert Gomersall
It never ceases to amaze me of the variety of chassis and body builders around at that time. Chassis makers imported their products from all over Europe. They would never all have made it, but the 1929 ‘Crash’ prematurely finished a lot of them off. I’d say that Gilford (with their unique Gruss front suspension and own Wycombe bodies) was, perhaps, the most popular of these outsiders, specialising more with coaches rather than buses. They managed to get through the recession, but the big boys dominated the market by then and there were fewer independents, so, despite their making a very good and reliable product, they went into liquidation end-1936.
Chris Hebbron
Funny you should mention Gilford. A great “might have been” manufacturer. By all accounts a superb product hit both by the crash and by that old devil – consolidation. There were faithful customers who were taken over by other firms – or even groups – and were not Gilford customers. Overnight a customer base would disappear. [This happened a lot with post deregulation grouping and regrouping.] Unfortunately, it happened too often with Gilford who were also very much in to advanced experimental models which cost a lot too develop and cost too much for conservative operators to buy. Satisfied customers included Bristol Greyhound, Black and White and Yelloway.
David Oldfield
08/09/14 – 18:00
Reynolds Bros. was for many years the main Ford agent for Barnsley. They also built the “Dearne” range of municipal vehicles based on Ford chassis in the early 1930’s. Their garage and showroom was on Peel Street, and the bodyshop and works was on Fitzwilliam Street. The firm later became Service Garage (Barnsley) Ltd., and later still Polar Ford. The Peel Street premises were demolished in the late 1960’s after a move to a new, larger site on Dodworth Road, and the Fitzwilliam Street site had several other later users including Jaguar restoration specialists 3.4 limited. The site has been cleared recently to make way for the Gateway Plaza development. Polar Ford moved from Dodworth Road to Wakefield Road to make way for new housing, and Polar have very recently become Trust Ford. (September 2014)
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Red & White Services 1932 Gloster-Gardner 6LW Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. Ltd C30R
Photographed when new, here’s a rare Gloster-Gardner coach, in Red & White Services livery, the company which collaborated with the Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Works in the production of these vehicles. The robust chassis were fitted with overdrive and could achieve 53mph and 20mpg. The robust chassis were designed to take the Gardner diesel engine from the outset. In 1932/33, Red & White Services, of Chepstow, took delivery of six Gloster-Gardner 6LWs with GRC&W C30R bodies. Numbered 223-228, they were registered in the WO XXXX (Monmouthshire) series. It is said that the unusual seven-bay bodies were not the most robust products and, in 1938, at least 223 was re-bodied by Duple as C32F as can be seen in the photo below. They were withdrawn between 1948 and 1951. Another user was Neath & Cardiff Luxury Coaches, who took two in 1934, one of which was fitted with a replacement second-hand body in 1946. Both were withdrawn in 1953.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
The range of chassis numbers between these two vehicles was 563, but such is the arcane nature of chassis numbering, that I remain unconvinced that that was the number of chassis built. The production period was between 1932 and 1934, after which the company was busy with rail orders and this remained the only bus chassis the company ever built, although they built a complete trolleybus in 1933. Interestingly, Gloucester Corporation did not support their local bus maker, although their Vulcan Duchesses and Thornycroft BC”s did carry GRC&W bodies.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
08/04/13 – 09:28
What a very fine and purposeful looking vehicle! The radiator was particularly impressive and seemed to anticipate Leyland’s later style. It certainly compared very well with the SOS offerings of 1932!
Chris Barker
09/04/13 – 06:43
Chris B puts it perfectly! I imagine the gearbox was David Brown and the axles Kirkstall. Are technical details recorded anywhere? However troublesome the original bodies were, the Duple replacements were nothing like as good-looking–at least to judge by the lower picture–with that awkwardly-handled break in waistline and hackneyed swoop. Seeing “20 mpg” I assumed the Gardner was a 5LW, but on reading more carefully I was amazed to see such economy from a 6LW. How sad that the project was so short-lived and that there are no survivors. The nearest parallel I suppose is the Irish GNR-Gardner, of which I believe five survive. Thanks, Chris H, for a very inspiring posting.
Ian Thompson
09/04/13 – 13:50
I’m glad I’m not the only one whose first impression of this vehicle was that it was a Leyland radiator! I’m inclined to agree with Ian that the Duple body doesn’t look quite right. The post war ones – as seen elsewhere on these pages – is clearly a “tidied up” version.
Pete Davies
10/04/13 – 06:38
A couple of further thoughts on this, I think I’m right in saying that the Gardner 5LW and 6LW engines were first trialled in 1931 so in these vehicles must have been some of the very first production examples of the famous Gardner LW range. Secondly, I’m particularly impressed by the style of the front wings. They give an astonishingly modern look to a 1932 vehicle and again they anticipated post war practice by a good fifteen years!
Chris Barker
10/04/13 – 17:19
I, too, admire the very advanced concept and styling of these Gloster Gardner vehicles. I have come across some references to these machines elsewhere in the past, but very little detail about the specification seems to be available. It does show that the Gardner LW oil engine, introduced in 1931, had established its credentials very quickly indeed. Ian is probably correct in his ideas of the proprietary components employed. Back in 1932, five speed transmissions were not that common – as far as I know, only Albion, Bristol and Dennis were offering these in the early 1930s, though I fully expect to be corrected by a better informed OBP stalwart. 20 mpg does strike me as being a bit optimistic for an overall performance figure, though I have no doubt that this was achievable on a long, steady journey.(Aldershot and District could almost get 16 mpg out of a 6LW Loline III on long runs.) The entire vehicle certainly exudes confidence and competence in ample measure, and the fact that they all had lives of around sixteen to nineteen years shows that such qualities were borne out in practice. It is strange that some of the other mainstream manufacturers did not learn from these remarkable vehicles. Several of the contemporary offerings were decidedly archaic by comparison.
Roger Cox
10/04/13 – 17:20
They are certainly original vehicles ahead of their time in may respects. I agree it is sad that the effort resulted in so few vehicles, none of which survived. Can anyone shed light on who Marston Coaches were and when WO 7518 was finally put to rest? I am intrigued enough with these coaches to go down to the local county archives to see if any newspaper items or GRC&W records survive, to get more information. I’ll keep you posted.
Chris Hebbron
28/10/15 – 07:17
The Gloster had a two pronged purpose, firstly Red & White group was private at the time and wanted to take over the City of Gloucester Tramways and replace with buses, eventually this operator fell to Bristol Omnibus port of the Tilling Group, R&W hoped that the Glos connection and a promise of orders would assist the cause. The second reason was that R&W bought Albions and very good they were but as a very cost aware operator they wanted to switch to diesel engines and Gardners at that and Albion who were working on their own units were reluctant to house the Gardner, with the advent of the Gloster all that changed and Albion quickly came to heel and fitted various LW units for this good customer. Then 1934 happened and for the first and only time R&W went into a loss and that clearly caused a great deal of activity. The R&W Glosters had been sent to Liverpool where they worked on the McShayne service to London and I think this was given up, Black and White at Cheltenham was set up as a consortium, own services consolidated into the grouping and other changes made all of which brought the company into the black. In so far as I am aware there were 11 GG chassis, 7 to Red and White, 2 to Neath and Cardiff and 1 for Richmond of Neath all part of Red and White, possibly one not bodied and a Trolleybus using Compton equipment which went to Southend Corporation. Shame it was a great product with tremendous possibilities but one assumes quite expensive at the time.
Christopher
30/10/15 – 06:23
Thx, Christopher, for the additional background information surrounding these interesting and unique vehicles. As for the sole Gloster trolleybus, it became 122 in Southend Corporation”s fleet, with a long life, for a unique vehicle, 1934 to 1950. Here are a couple of views: //www.cooperline.com/gs_bus_details.asp?id=132 //www.sct61.org.uk/ss122b
Chris Hebbron
10/02/16 – 07:05
The other Red & White Gloster-Gardner that was rebodied was WO 7597 Fleet No.226, later S833. Here is a photo of the rebodied vehicle. Can anyone identify the body or when the rebodying took place. Neither appear to have been recorded. (Photo from Thomas Knowles Collection attached with his permission)
Richard Smith
11/02/16 – 06:21
I would feel pretty confident in saying that was an ex-North Western body and would not be the only one Red and White had. 671 (EU 8526) was a Griffin PS1 (originally 104) which carried such a body until a Duple coach body was later fitted. I also have a photograph showing another similar body (only) carrying the fleet number 310.
David Beilby
11/02/16 – 16:37
David, I have EU 8526 (and 3 other Griffin PS1s) having been built with a Leyland B35R body. It was later fitted with a second hand Duple coach body from a withdrawn vehicle. I have a D S Giles offside view of it with original Leyland body which does not look like the body above. However I do have Red & White 310 as a 1936 Albion fitted in 1953 with a 1930s ECW B35R body from a North Western vehicle. Can you post your photo of 310 please.
Valliant Direct Coaches 1931 Gilford 168OT Weymann C30D
This is a photo of a 1931 Gilford 168OT coach with Weymann semi-fabric body along Brighton seafront. It is painted in the livery of Valliant Direct Coaches of Ealing, who owned it for many years. The coach was eventually saved by well-known bus saviour, Prince Marshall, and it languished for many years at the Science Museum Annexe at Wroughton, Nr Swindon, Wilts. Eventually, with the financial generosity of the London Omnibus Traction Society, Seb Marshall was able to restore it thoroughly to the immaculate state we see in the photo above.
Gilford was a short-lived company from 1929 and 1935. It was unusual in that it never made anything, merely being an assembly outfit. It also made Wycombe bodies, with the parts also being made to order and bought in. As might be deduced from the body name, they were based in High Wycombe. They used American petrol engines, especially Lycomings. One unusual feature was the suspension which used Gruss Air Springs, another US import, the front cylinders being easily spotted either side of the radiator. They were more like shock absorbers and enabled vehicles to ‘glide along smoothly and supremely comfortable on four cushions of compressed air’! These were indeed superior vehicles! Gilford were very successful in the early years, but the Wall Street Crash and Depression took its toll and competition from the big boys intensified, with sales dropping relentlessly from 1932, despite new models coming out and a move towards goods vehicles. A late attempt at fitting the unreliable Meadows diesel engine did not help the situation. The final straw was what caused problems for several companies, the formation of the London Passenger Transport Board in 1933, with the consequent takeover and demise of lots of independents in London and much of the adjoining counties. (Christopher Dodd, a London bus body builder, who’d supported the independents almost exclusively, was wiped out at a stroke). The success of Gilford in selling vehicles to independents over the years created the situation where, after the takeovers, London Transport became the largest operator in the UK of Gilford buses and coaches at 220, for some five years, until standardisation started in earnest!
Seb Marshalls blog on restoring GW 713 can be read here.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
Didn’t Gilford produce a prototype double decker of extremely low height and very modern appearance for the early 1930s?? I can’t remember if it was first a bus and later a trolleybus, or the other way around – I rather suspect the former. In any event it sadly never caught on apparently.
Chris Youhill
Bus then trolleybus. The remains of Gilford went through two rapid changes of owner before ending up with Sentinel. Another case of interesting antecedents – like the Roadliner to Dennis R via Duple 425 “family tree”.
David Oldfield
If we’re going ancient, let’s have more Gilford – although there weren’t many. What about Reo? [They were also used by the likes of Black and White.] …..and Sentinel who enjoyed a brief and honourable fling post war. If Gilford were the great might have been pre war then Foden and Sentinel were the great might have beens post war. Just a thought.
David Oldfield
I’m afraid my shots don’t go that far back, but if anyone wants to send me some then I will post them.
See the ‘Coming Soon’ panel the next two contributions fall into the ancient category
Peter
I’m sure I saw a photo of Gilford’s double-decker bus/trolleybus once, but can’t pin down where. It was certainly modern-looking for its time. We’ve all heard of the famous AEC Q front-entrance double-decker, but around the same time, Leyland also built a similar vehicle, which had a squarer flat front (might have been lowbridge) and also looked modern for its time. I don’t believe there were any takers and it was broken up in the end, if memory serves me right. Anyone got a photo of it? I’m not sure where the engine was placed, though, but not at the front.
Chris Hebbron
Chris H, are you sure it wasn’t the Leyland TTB front entrance trolleybus?
David Oldfield
You’re right David, I was a little adrift there!
Chris Hebbron
I am sorry to say that Chris Hebbron’s original information is not quite correct in that the photo of GW 713 in Valliant livery was taken some years ago after initial restoration by Prince Marshall & not as a result of recent restoration by his son Seb Marshall. It is currently in a very dismantled state and the subject of a very major restoration by Seb after his acquisition of the coach from Science Museum storage at Wroughton the progress of which can be seen on his blog via link at end of Chris’s article. Hopefully it will not be too long before it is once again restored to the immaculate condition shown in the photo.
Brian
I contacted Seb Marshall to fill in the gaps between its original restoration and its subsequent sad demise into the condition it sank into before he started restoring it. I can do no better than send you his reply which I think is worthwhile printing.
Hi Chris,
The photo was indeed taken in my father’s time, if you look closely he is driving, I believe it is Brighton ’63.
Alas early preservation did not have the funding it does today and the body was very tired back then and was only cosmetically enhanced by Valliants. As we’ve gone into it we’ve discovered it has had a very hard life, with a number of framework repairs evident not surprising really as it went to war!
We were planning to have it ready for Brighton next year, but work has dictated otherwise so sometime in the not too distant future is all I can say at the moment.
All the best, Seb
Chris Hebbron
You are right Chris, Gilford did build a low-height double-decker in 1931, and it was displayed at that year’s Commercial Motor Show. It was a very advanced design incorporating front wheel drive, thus allowing a very low floorline, as the usual bulk of the rear axle and differential casing were dispensed with. After delving into various books, all manner of things came to light. The bus was known as the ‘D-type’ (presumably for double-decker), and was of chassisless construction with an overall height of 12ft. 11ins, which was pretty impressive for a ‘decker with central gangways on both decks. The engine was also unusual in being a German-built Junkers horizontally-opposed 6-cylinder two-stroke diesel unit. A four-speed constant mesh gearbox was mounted ahead of the engine, and the drive then went to the front wheels. As usual, Gilford had fitted Gruss air springs to the vehicle, and the front suspension was independent to boot! The Wycombe 56-seat rear-entrance bodywork was of steel-framed construction, and was of a modern-looking full-fronted design. A Tilling-style three-piece front window arrangement was used on the upper deck, with the outer glasses curving round to meet the front side pillars. Unfortunately, no orders were forthcoming, and as David rightly says, it was then converted to a trolleybus, and apparently saw service as such with Wolverhampton and Southend-on-Sea. A picture of the bus in its original form was shown in Buses Illustrated No.8, but I’m sure I’ve seen a picture of it elsewhere, and will keep looking! Gilford chassis designations were generally straightforward. The numbers denoted the wheelbase (in feet and inches) and the letters described the driving position. So an SD was Standard Drive (meaning bonneted, or normal control), and an OT was Over Type (meaning driver alongside engine, or forward control). As such, the engaging 168OT in the photo would be of 16ft.8ins wheelbase, Over Type layout.
Brendan Smith
Its nice to see my grandfathers coach on the sea front I remember him talking to me about the coaches he had.
Stephen Valli
Stephen – I’m glad that the photo gave you pleasure. You will no doubt know that your grandfather is greatly respected among the bus enthusiast fraternity for his successful efforts at bus preservation when it was in its infancy.
Brendan, Thx for researching all that useful information on the ‘D’-type, most of which I was unaware of. As ever, it was a mixture of their own construction and buying-in parts and, as ever, the conservative bus industry of the time stayed well away from purchasing it, despite the general good name and record of Gilford. A photo of it would be wonderful, if you can track one down. Sadly, although I can boast about three of the earliest Buses Illustrated somewhere, No. 8 wasn’t one of them, more’s the pity!
Chris Hebbron
The patent number for the D-type is (GB)353,902 and was applied for by the Gilford Motor Company Ltd and Edward Bert Horne on April 29th 1930 and accepted on July 29th 1931. The drawing shows a lower deck plan, with the engine protruding significantly into the lower saloon with two pairs of rearward facing seats to each side of it, and a vertical section through the bus showing the front wheel drive and Gruss springs. You can view the drawing here.
Malcolm Thwaite
Thank you for posting such an interesting technical drawing Malcolm. I had read somewhere that the engine on the D-type had intruded into the lower saloon, but had not envisaged it doing so by quite as much as shown! The seating arrangement around it was fascinating – and what seats for the enthusiast they would have been, right next to that two-stroke engine….
Brendan Smith
24/01/12 – 05:52
Nice to see a colour picture of a Gilford. My grandfather drove for them when they were in High Wycombe and I have a photo of him sat on a chassis outside the factory
Andrew Stevens
05/04/14 – 07:07
I remember reading an extensive history of Gilford in Buses Illustrated once complete with many photographs. One reason for their demise mentioned was a large part of their market was to independents, and I understand that the problem was many of them were unable to pay the instalments on the purchase. The same thing brought down Guy in South Africa, where they sold direct to small operators who didn’t pay up or disappeared into the night.
John
05/04/14 – 09:37
Don’t I remember a section here on OBP about a year ago devoted to the Gilford decker, photos, drawings and all? I’ve searched but can no longer find it.
Here is another picture of GW 713 taken at Madeira Drive at the end of an HCVC London – Brighton Run in the early 1960s. By the 1970s this coach had been repainted into the livery of Evan Evans Tours.
White Bus Service (Wilson and Hughes Ltd. Bridlington) 1932 Gilford 1680T Wycombe C32F
Here is one of my favourite pictures which I took as a teenager with my old roll film box camera. Obviously the standard is very poor, but it brings back lovely memories, for me, of happy times as a devotee of the several small operators in Bridlington in those days. The vehicle was new in 1932 to Hillman’s Saloon Coaches Limited of London, and in April 1934 passed to London Passenger Transport Board being immediately transferred to Eastern National (fleet number 3524). It came to Bridlington in May 1939, being withdrawn by White Bus in January 1950. Still in khaki livery, no doubt as a result of wartime camouflage for the sensitive coastal area of Bridlington, it is seen in the railway station yard where it languished inexplicably until it was taken away and scrapped in 1953. Of particular note is the endearing abbreviation of “Flamborough” to Flamboro. Where oh where have the last sixty years gone ?? The varied and wonderful fleets of the White Bus Service and of R. Williamson and Sons, both of whom managed to provide local bus services in the resort against the might of the equally commendable East Yorkshire Motor Services, were a joy to have experienced.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Youhill
Oh Chris, what a wonderful evocative photo, where has the Brid of the 50’s gone as well? I well remember the station yard, when it was a station full of West Riding steam loco’s! It is good to see photos of some of the smaller operators in the area; is there any more where this came from. The black & white is wonderfully atmospheric, not to say the subject also. As you may be aware the EYMS website has photos of all of the White Bus fleet which was purchases by EYMS
Keith Easton
What a wonderfully evocative picture which captures the sadness of a loyal servant now discarded. The Gruss Air Springs really show up on this low-profile shot. I think I only ever saw one Gilford, a Hera (their last model?), as a fairground vehicle on Wimbledon Common in pre-Womble days, around 1950. It really did look quite smart and I took a photo (with my box Brownie), sadly long lost. But your shot has made up for it, Chris! The one outstanding ‘true’ coach that LT inherited was from Hillman, an AEC Renown with Harrington body. Withdrawn in 1939, unusually it was retained at Tilling’s former depot at Bull’s Yard, Peckham, where many unusual vehicles were stored for the ‘duration’. The yard was bombed in the Blitz and it was a casualty, along with many other gems.
Chris Hebbron
Being a Bradford lad, we had regular holidays in Brid, and later owned an old Bradford tram at Skipsea as a bungalow. I vividly remember WBS and Williamsons, as well as Boddys, and can well remember WBS Bedford OWBs, and can still see the rear of an early 1930s single decker with oval window, which could well have been this Gilford. I also seem to remember a 6 wheel Guy double decker. of Williamsons ( ex Leicester?) and both Williamson and Boddys had ex YWD centre entrance TD2s, the latter on the Filey-Flamborough service. The later Halifax Regents, and London Daimlers of WBS come vividly to mind! Super days!! I was about 5 or 6 when these memories occurred, and I have similar nostalgia from Morecambe, where we also had holidays in the late war and early post war years.
John Whitaker
Wonderful memories of Bridlington John and thanks indeed for them. Sadly though the Williamson’s Guy six wheeler is only a happy dream – don’t we all have them eh ?? – but is actually very close to reality. The Firm operated two ex Doncaster giants – one was a Leyland Titanic and the other an AEC Renown. The financial incredibility of such “over equipment” (petrol engined especially) on two flat town services of a little over a mile each remains for ever completely fascinating.
Chris Youhill
Thanks Chris for following up on WBS, and clarifying my distorted 6 wheel memory! Skipsea was a delight re. old buses… there were 2 more Doncaster 6 wheelers on the cliff top near us from about 1949.. I remember climbing into the cabs before they were “done up”! All sorts of other treasures too. Do we have a fleet list for WBS by any chance? It will always remain one of my all time favourite fleets on the trip up to the “Lighthouse”. Great to share these memories.
John Whitaker
Chris Youhill mentions the Leyland Titanic (clever twist on Titan!) and AEC Renown in one sentence, which made me think of all the Renown competitors which had to bow down to AEC’s successful six-wheeler. Double-deck makes/models like the Guy FCX, LGOC’s CC and LS models, Crossley’s sole Condor and the wonderfully-named Sunbeam Sikh! There were also the single-deck Leyland TS6 and TS7 T’s and D’s. Although their stars had faded by the late 1930’s, they set the scene for the ascendancy of six-wheeler trolleybuses until about 1950.
Chris Hebbron
I do have a “sketchy” but relatively complete fleet summary for Williamson’s, and also one for White Bus Service, and will try to condense them some time soon when I have the chance.
Chris Youhill
Hi Chris (Y), would you please be so kind as to let me have a copy when available. Thanks a lot
Keith Easton
With reference to WBS fleet I believe the first vehicle for passenger work by user Alf Wilson was actually the boat shell of a fishing Coble put on wheels and pulled by horses. I’ve heard that Yorkshiremen are ‘tight’ in the purse area the phrase Cobbled-together takes on a new meaning up ‘ere in’t North. Reuben Williamson came a close second to this when in 1920 he fitted an ex-double deck Horse-bus body onto a Republic 2ton chassis. At Easter 1912 their Horsebus plied the Bridlington Promenade and took £3 0s 6d in one day, this equals 726 one penny fares, hence the term coining it in?
Ian Gibbs
01/04/11 – 07:32
Three brief comments about the White Bus Service Gilford EV 7580 shown at the top of this site: Firstly, Chris, the colour in which you saw it in the Station yard (which I recollect as nearer to dark grey than khaki) was definitely not a hangover from war camouflage, as my clear memory (which goes back to 1943) is of all the White Buses being in their normal livery of creamy white and red; the only buses I saw in wartime camouflage were those of United (with a few exceptions). Secondly, WBS also had a second Gilford, WG 332 (ex-W.Alexander); Thirdly, although both were withdrawn from service in 1950 (November and January respectively) they were then stored in the garage in the Old Town for some years, both appearing in the Station yard in about 1953, for what I recall as a short time only, they both seemed to be full of junk I remember.
Patrick Hooper
01/04/11 – 21:00
Thanks indeed Patrick for this extra information. You are no doubt right about the strange colour of EV 7580 whilst in the station yard – I wonder what on earth was the purpose behind this odd transformation. I also remember WG 332 very well from my very junior days, and in the same period I was not even aware of the locations of any premises for WBS – which is perhaps as well or poor old Dad would have been dragged even longer distances, and he was already commendably patient and tolerant about my avid interest in the buses in the Town Centre and in the West Riding here where we lived.
Chris Youhill
14/05/11 – 18:38
I just have to tell all you guys of my experience with the White Bus Company. In the early 50’s whilst at Huddersfield Technical College, the summer breaks was a time for earning some cash! My parents lived in Flamborough village so I had to find a local job. My stepfather, Gilbert Readhead, was senior driver for the WBSC and he got me the job of bus conductor from June to September. As a result my knowledge of the Company is quite considerable. Owned jointly by Jack Wilson and Billy Hughes they ran a one bus service during the winter between Flamborough and Brid and had a minimum of 5 buses in the Summer. I could go on for a long time so I would welcome questions from anyone interested in the activities of the White Bus Company, Queen St., Bridlington.
Tim Hepworth
24/05/11 – 07:49
A long-time friend of mine (Charlie Bullock, now aged 96) recently told of the time he took his PSV test in Scarborough during the 1930’s. All appeared to be going well as he took his steed – a Gilford – around the streets of the town. However, when the time came to carry out the hill start, Charlie said he was a little perplexed at one point, to say the least. His examiner asked him to pull up on Chain Hill, which he dutifully did. The examiner then alighted and briefly disappeared from view. On re-appearing he asked Charlie to set off when he was ready, but then remained outside the vehicle. Charlie set off, but had only driven a few yards before the examiner asked him to stop. He then disappeared again and returned holding a matchbox. Apparently he had placed this behind one of the Gilford’s front wheels in order to check that the vehicle had not rolled back at all during the hill start. Charlie was informed that as the matchbox was still in pristine condition, he could proceed with the rest of his test! Needless to say, Charlie passed that day with the Gilford, and went on to spend what he says were many happy years driving for United Automobile Services at their Scarborough depot.
Brendan Smith
11/01/12 – 13:31
Hi Tim H, my dad remembers your stepfather, Gilbert Redhead, but sadly not you he is ninety so maybe forgiven, White Bus Service finished in 1955, sold to East Yorkshire Motors, my grandad never talked about his life, so anything I read or hear from, means I can put together a life that until now, was a mystery. Thanks
John Hughes
18/02/12 – 16:31
Hi Tim H I have not looked at the White Bus site for a while your offer for questions is generous can I mail one or two via either email to Peter or you by letter when I have time
Ian Gibbs
19/02/12 – 16:36
Hi Ian. I too, would be interested in anything “White Bus”. In fact, if we all got together, perhaps we could assemble an accurate fleet list for White Bus, and Williamson. As well as the HS Lion Cub, there was a WBS post war “Regal” with a Lincolnshire mark, which is not in the PSV Circle list. Chris Y., well known in these columns, is pretty well versed in all things “Brid Independent” too, dare I say!
John Whitaker
20/02/12 – 10:39
I can answer John’s query about the Lincolnshire registered AEC Regal. It was ABE 957 and was ex Enterprise and Silver Dawn of Scunthorpe, and before joining WBS was with an operator from far away called, I believe, “Reliance.” The picture was taken by the late Robert F. Mack.
Chris Youhill
21/02/12 – 07:11
Hi John W; off the top of my head the above WBS Regal is listed in PB17 in the list of vehcles acquired and taken over by EYMS. (But not used by them.) Count me in for any “BridBus” information, and I look forward to Ian’s book on the subject!
Keith Easton
21/02/12 – 16:40
Great stuff Keith! I also look forward to Ian`s book. Wonder why Enterprise and Silver Dawn sold this Regal so soon. Is ABE a pre-war mark..? I had assumed this was a Mk2 (post war) Regal, but the more I find out, the less I know!
John Whitaker
22/02/12 – 07:11
According to the Old Classic Car website, ABE was first used for Lincolnshire (Lindsey) from August 1937 to April 1939. (BBE registrations started in May 1939).
Stephen Ford
22/02/12 – 07:14
John W…ABE 957 was issued in Lindsay, Lincolnshire during late February/early March 1938. Does that help or hinder?!!
Richard Leaman
22/02/12 – 07:16
ABE was indeed a pre-war mark, issued in 1938. There was an article about Enterprise and Silver Dawn in Buses, Aug. 1965 which lists the fleet at takeover by Lincolnshire Road Car in 1950. Listed are ABE 951-956 and ABE 958/60/61. Missing are ABE 957 and ABE 959 with gaps in the fleet numbers. So, as John W asks, why would they have sold these two when they still had Regals dating from 1931/32 in the fleet in 1950! I wonder if Chris Y knows which “Reliance” company was involved in the story of ABE 957? The very nice looking bodywork was by Plaxton.
Chris Barker
22/02/12 – 07:18
Whilst still in “Bridlington Independent” mode, is there a kind gentleman out there who can fill in the previous owner and dates new/acquired detail for the following White Bus vehicles extant at the 1955 EYMS takeover? HS 8306, CEL 223, ASD 149, EWW 149, and when ABE 957 was new and acquired. I don`t suppose anyone has a photo of a London Daimler in WBS service ?
John Whitaker
22/02/12 – 15:22
I am happy to be able to provide all the answers which John W seeks today. HS 8306 New 1935 – to WBS October 1951 from Graham of Paisley CEL 223 New 1937 – to WBS June 1953 from Pulleyn, Dunninglen (spelling questionable) ASD 149 New 1943 – to WBS May 1947 from Lennox, Whiting Bay EWW 149 New 1944 – to WBS May 1952 from Robinson, Kippax ABE 957 New 1938 – to WBS May 1949 from Enterprise (Mark 1 Regal of course)
Pictures also attached (purchased long ago and sources unknown) of both of the Ex LT Daimlers in service – one in Queen Street, and the coloured one at Flamborough.
In answer to Chris B’s query about ABE 957, after disposal by EYMS it went to Reliance of Brightwalton, Berkshire.
Chris Youhill
22/02/12 – 17:55
Just to say how great it was to get answers so quickly for the wonderful White Bus Service, and also Williamsons, questions I have pondered for some time now. It all comes back as though I was 10 years old again, in vivid clarity, so thanks to all, and especially Chris. It is a great pleasure to discover that so many other enthusiasts share a love both for these fleets, and the era in general, and I trust we can revel in the enjoyment of this site for many years to come!
John Whitaker
25/02/12 – 07:35
Hello all, Chris nice photos, in return I have found this WBS Gilford 1660T from D Okill when he was studying Gilfords I sent Dick extracts from tax records for his project in return he sent this photo I take the chance of sending it to OBP and hope no one will object, details New 2/29 Highways London No 8 London Lorries C30 to Clarke Bros Ripon 5/32 to WBS 7/33- any other owner? Clarke Bros were Stage Carriage & Excursions they had a cracking fleet of mainly S/H coaches read like abc of makes, started 1914 with a Ryknield? Chara ferrying troops around locally I think then set up business has psv circle done a fleet? I calculated 37 but odd ones may be lorries from the Spud carrying work DWT 725 Leyland had Barnaby Coach Body
Ian Gibbs
25/02/12 – 14:26
Coaches of this era, to me, always had a sleek look even thought it wasn’t actually sleek, if you know what I mean! It must be the go-faster curtains! I love the stylish curved rear. Nice post,
Chris Hebbron
26/02/12 – 07:22
Re WBS Gilford picture posted above the Reg No was UL 5805 sorry I missed it out.
Ian Gibbs
07/04/12 – 07:14
According to PSVC book UL 5805 was with WBS until March 1938 after which there is no known history.
Andrew Stevens
07/11/12 – 06:46
Hi, chaps : rejoining the correspondence about White Bus Service buses etc., after a long absence! I was born (1938) and bred in Bridlington, so White Buses were very much part of the fabric of my childhood. Just 1 small amendment to make : CEL223 bore the name and address “Victor Pulleyn, York” when it arrived at WBS. (“Dunninglen” may be a misreading for “Dunnington”, which is a small village a few miles to the east of York, but it didn’t appear on the actual vehicle.) I’m not aware that CEL223 was ever used in normal service; certainly it was never fitted with a destination blind, the destination indicator box glass being painted over with “Private” on it. I’d be delighted to reminisce with anyone about WBS, Williamsons or any of the other buses in the East Yorkshire area; better to use e-mail, as I rarely have time to look at websites!
Patrick Hooper
21/01/13 – 05:55
One more comment, about the ex-Enterprise AEC Regal ABE 957 – it was indeed not operated by EYMS but sold by them to Reliance of Newbury, Berks. Does anyone have a photograph of White Bus Commer AAD 140?
Patrick Hooper
21/01/13 – 05:58
Just to add that AAD 140 was a Gloucestershire registration. The area abounded with folk who GAD about, were MAD, SAD, BAD, DAD and were bounders, sorry CAD’s, amongst others!
Chris Hebbron
21/01/13 – 15:59
*AD says Black & White Motorways – who were keen Gilford operators for a short while…..
David Oldfield
23/01/13 – 07:06
That would have just been a FAD… (Sorry David!)
Brendan Smith
23/01/13 – 07:07
CEL 223 was a Leyland Cub KPZ2, new in June 1936 with a Beadle C20F body to Hants and Dorset – originally in their version of the Royal Blue livery, for use on tours and excursions. In 1937, to avoid confusion with the coaches of the Royal Blue express services – by then owned by Southern/Western – H&D repainted their coaches into cream and green. It was withdrawn by H&D in August 1951. My notes say it went then to the dealers, North, in Leeds, and to G Bamborough, Chester-le-Street in the November. Subsequently, it was noted with an owner in Wakefield in February 1954 – possibly as a mobile caravan.
Peter Delaney
23/01/13 – 09:13
Nice one, Brendan.
David Oldfield
21/07/15 – 08:41
CEL 223 Passed to White Bus Service from Victor Pulleyn, Station Garage, Dunnington, he had operated it as a psv from 12/51 to 3/53. It came into service with White Bus Service in 6/53 and was still current when East Yorkshire took over, it was not used by East Yorkshire and sold to PVD at Marton (the dealer) in March 1956 and had passed to Stepney Contractors at Beveerly by June 1957 presumably as a site hut.
Mike Pearson
18/09/15 – 05:55
I have just seen this post. I can remember ABE 957 with Reliance of Newbury. Somewhere I have a photo at Brightwalton garage. If I can dig it out I will be in touch. It was a regular performer on the Newbury/Brightwalton service.
Paul S White
18/09/15 – 10:11
To see such a picture of ABE 957 would be realy interesting Paul if you can find it. In the picture above of ABE 957 in Queen Street a fascinating glimpse of times gone by can just be made out in the far distance – I’ve only just noticed it myself. The building to the right of the OWB with the black signage is at the end of Prince Street, and is in the unmistakeable erstwhile format of “Montague Burton, the tailor of taste.” In recent years it was a McDonalds eaterie but that has now closed.
Chris Youhill
20/10/15 – 06:49
I’ll update Dad {Ian} with this info, I am sure he will be interested. Despite his stroke he is still very much buzzing with bus chat. I spent three hours with him yesterday talking about Everinghams. Possibility of a magazine article being written up about them.
Matt Gibbs
13/03/16 – 07:50
My family owned Reliance of Newbury and were delighted yesterday to have have a talk from my old schooldays friend David Wilder. He told us much that none of us knew. The hunt is now on for photos of any vehicles at the old Brightwalton depot where several if my generation spent much of our childhood in the 1950s. I have seem Paul S White’s previous post (18/09/15 – 05:55 above) mentioning Brightwalton and wonder if he or anyone else can help?
Barrie Hedges
12/05/16 – 17:20
Commer AAD 140 when owned by Pulham & Sons of Naunton, Gloucestershire.
Ian Pope
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/06/20 – 07:27
One of four Gilford coaches operated by the Great Western Railway on the Oxford to Cheltenham service pictured at High Street, Witney, Oxfordshire, circa 1930. Although the GWR railway did have a service to Witney and beyond to Fairford, it never completed the route through to Swindon or Cheltenham and in place of this they operated a joint passenger road service with Black & White. I painted this in 2002. The original is now owned by Mr. Dave Jones of Suffolk.
Western Scottish Motor Traction Co. Limited 1933 Gilford Zeus Strachans H24/24R
The above photograph (from the Dave Jones Collection) is of a Gilford Zeus outside the Bellfield Works in High Wycombe. This was Gilford’s third attempt to get into double decker vehicle market after the 168DOT and the failed front wheel drive double decker which was later converted into a trolleybus. Two were built, the first appearing at the Glasgow Show of 1932 before being registered in 1933 for use as a Gilford demonstrator before passing to Western S.M.T (Fleet number 723), and the second being sold direct to Western S.M.T (Fleet number 722). The two vehicles were originally fitted with different engines, the demonstrator a Vulcan Juno and the later one a Tangye VM6, but both are believed to have had Leyland oil engines fitted before entering service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Andrew Stevens
22/04/12 – 16:42
A very smart modern-looking bus for its time, apart from the rather scrunched-up windscreen. The radiator suits the body style very well. I always had a soft spot for Gilford and was sorry it failed, partly due to the takeover of independents by newly-formed London Transport. Western SMT were staunch supporters of the marque at this time, taking quite a few coaches for their long-distance services. I wonder how long they lasted and their histories until scrapping. I was never good company at funfairs: a stomach not suited to revolving at high speed, restricted me to dodgems, big dippers, but certainly not waltzers! Thus, I tended to walk around the showmens’ vehicles and enjoy the fare on display there. I always remember seeing a Gilford Hera on one occasion, the only Gilford I ever saw.
Chris Hebbron
23/04/12 – 05:35
Don’t know when, but 723 transferred to Sandersons of Glasgow and I don’t know any history after that. 722 was withdrawn from service in 1944 and also transferred to Sandersons with no subsequent history.
Andrew Stevens
23/04/12 – 05:36
I have never come across a Gilford myself but every mention of them is always in a positive light – always said to be superb vehicles. As Chris says, circumstances – the customer base disappearing – overtook the firm with disastrous effects. I lived in High Wycombe for fifteen years and know Bellfield well – never realised that Gilford were based there. I don’t think they left a trace when they moved back to London.
David Oldfield
23/04/12 – 05:51
The very interesting subject of Gilfords reminds me that a group are restoring a single decker that started in life with Fred Oade of Heckmondwike. The company is still in business although nowadays they are undertakers the coaching side of the business was sold to Yorkshire Woollen in 1960. The vehicle is WX 3567 and was new in 1930. Oades sold it in 1934 and according to The PSV Circle it passed through several different owners and allegedly was sold for scrap in 1938 although obviously this never happened as I believe it was found in a barn.
Philip Carlton
24/04/12 – 06:53
I actually saw ‘WX’ last week and it’s coming along. The survivor list may take some by surprise, with two vehicles, a DF6 and an AS6 I believe road-worthy, along with an AS6, a 166SD, two 168SD’s (one converted to OT) and a 168OT currently under restoration. There is also a Hera chassis at the SVBM. Would be nice to get them all roadworthy and together in the future – here’s hoping. Unfortunately Bellfield works has now been demolished so there certainly is no trace left of the company, and few people in Wycombe seem to know of their existence, something I hope to put right somehow.
Andrew Stevens
07/03/14 – 16:14
My father was a bus driver with Western SMT from 1945 till his retirement in 1976. His normal route was Irvine Harbour via Montgreenan to Kilwining Railway Station, wait 10 minutes and drive back. Only one single decker bus operated on this route. Due to the demand for the service on a Sunday a double decker was used. One Sunday my father forgot about the low bridge at Irvine harbour and took the complete top of the decker. For this he was suspended for a week without pay. Having no Driver the following Sunday, the Chief Inspector drove the route and put the decker under the same bridge. Father wages were duly restored. After WW2 there was a shortage of reliable buses. Western decided to buy bare chassis from Leyland and have them bodied at Alexanders Falkirk. All that Leyland supplied was a bare chassis and a temporary seat. drivers had to wrap up well and on some occasion had to be lifted from the seat as their clothes were frozen solid. After the war Western started their Glasgow to London night Service, on one Glasgow Fair 110 coaches left Glasgow in convoy for London, the journey time was 15 hours with refreshment stops there were no toilets on these buses. During the 1960’s a Day service was introduced. all the coaches were two driver operated as was the night service. Only the senior drivers were allowed on the day service and they got all the new and best coaches. The engines on these coaches had no engine governor and have been clocked at over 90 mph. The time was now down to ten hours, there were no Motorways at this time. The drivers would swap driving positions without stopping or reducing speed. The goal was to get into London Waterloo early, and give themselves more free time. In June 1967 my Father took delivery of the first Volvo coach with one piece wrap round windscreen. The coach was delivered factory fitted straight to the bus stance at Glasgow, it had not been checked over by Western mechanics. I was on this coach on its return journey from London To Glasgow. We were traveling on a dual carriageway when we were overtaken by a lorry with a flapping tarpaulin the Tarpaulin caught the driver mirror swung it through the windscreen. due to the increase in internal pressure the back window popped out. Midland Red had an agreement with Western in the event of an accident or breakdown they would supply a replacement coach in this case the replacement would mean a six hour delay. The drivers on consulting the passengers decided to press on, the weather was dry and sunny temperature approx, 24 degree’s. Two miles after turning at Scots corner a rear tyre punctured caused by going over windscreen glass. The coach had a spare wheel and nut runner but no jack. The lorry following us was driven by an ex-colleague of my fathers who just happened to have a heavy duty jack, 15 min’s. later we were back on the road. the coach arrived in Glasgow 5 min’s behind schedule. The tips for each of the two drivers were more than a weeks wages each. We stayed in Fenwick at that time. during WW2 there was a bus service. Ayr via Kilmarnock and Fenwick to Glasgow with a bus frequency of one every 90 seconds and the buses were packed. The regulations during the war were 28 standing downstairs and 12 standing up stairs. One memorable bus registration number TJ 9090 this was a second hand six wheeled Leyland with seating for 109, standing room bottom deck 35, top deck 20. On a Saturday afternoons fully loaded you could pass her on your bicycle going up Beansburn Brae
Gilbert Wilson
12/09/14 – 06:13
There is the chassis of an ex-Alexander Gilford Hera on show at the Scottish Vintage Bus Museum. It has a Leyland petrol engine taken out of a Titan converted to diesel.
Stephen Allcroft
15/09/15 – 06:46
Having just noticed the comment about this bus being sold to Sandersons of Glasgow in 1944, the Sanderson family traded at the time as Millburn Motors and were dealers and breakers. At later dates they owned controlling stakes in Lowland Motorways and Northern Roadways, the dealership later became S & N Motors.
This Gilford SD, chassis number 10561 was new to Mason, Gateshead in January 1929 but passed only six months later to Barlow & Fisher of Gleadless, Sheffield. At that time, Gleadless was at the outer edge of Sheffield on the Yorkshire/Derbyshire border. This photo must be immediately after Sheffield Corporation took over the business of Barlow & Fisher in 1933 as it is outside the Corporation’s Bramall Lane garage but still showing Barlow & Fisher as legal owner. Sheffield sold it in August of the same year. I wonder where it went and why its stays at Mason and again at Sheffield were so short? Incidentally, the PSV Circle’s Gilford book suggests that it might have been a demonstrator before going to Mason. One further question – can anyone identify the body-maker? Perhaps Wycombe, as many Gilfords were?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
30/07/15 – 10:57
This is a Gilford SD, not an OT, and there would be a number in front of the designation. In Gilford terminology, OT meant “over-type”, i.e. forward control. This one is normal control, or “standard drive” in Gilford’s description. The figures denoted the wheelbase, and the popular ones were 15 (15 feet), 166 (16 ft 6 ins) or 168 (16 ft 8 ins). The length of this one could possibly be a fifteen footer, making it a 15SD type, but I stand to be corrected by those who can track down the individual buses on this site.
Michael Hampton
30/07/15 – 10:59
Thanks Michael I have edited the title and copy, will wait for the number.
Peter
31/07/15 – 06:40
Thanks for the info Michael. I am no expert so I took the detail from the PSV Circle MM5 book. Clearly this will need amendment if and when reprinted. Any advice on the bodybuilder?
Les Dickinson
31/07/15 – 06:41
I see no sign of Gruss Springs on this vehicle, but there is a leaf spring end, plus shackle just poking out in front of the offside front wheel. Were these a slightly later development, or were they only put on some models?
Chris Hebbron
31/07/15 – 06:41
Mason was a Gilford dealer, so it would have been a demonstrator for Mason, rather than before passing to Mason. As such, the aim would be to sell it before it got too old. Sheffield would have got rid of it because it was non-standard (and it looks a bit worn-out)
David Hick
07/08/15 – 17:04
Bramall lane Garage opened in 1926. I always thought (in the 1950s) their depot was Coal Aston, (on the Sheffield/Derbyshire border), or Station Road, Halfway more likely, (also on the border). In the 1930s, Gleadless was not on the border, Woodseats & then Meadowhead was, (border past the STD sports ground, (Four Lane Ends), just before Low Edges Road was built.
Andy Fisher
19/08/15 – 07:15
Not sure exactly where the Barlow and Fisher depot was, but in the 1930s Gleadless certainly was on the Sheffield/Derbyshire border – the next village was Ridgeway, which was in Derbyshire. I think there is some confusion with Booth and Fisher, who’s depot was originally Killamarsh and then Halfway, and who ran through Coal Aston. Barlow and Fisher ran the Sheffield to Chesterfield route via Gleadless, Ridgeway and Ford, so Gleadless would have been an appropriate base. When they were taken over jointly by Sheffield and East Midland, the route became the 99.
John May
29/06/16 – 16:07
Maybe it’s just about to be taken away for scrapping. It looks as if it has just been pushed out of the garage & left where it stopped with front wheel against the kerb. Also the front panel seems to be completely detached. I am currently helping with the restoration of 168SD WX 3567 and have gathered quite a lot of knowledge on Gilfords through that.
Brian
30/06/16 – 06:35
I notice that there appears to be no nearside headlamp, either. Is WX 3567 the Gilford I saw at Carlton Colville a few years ago, Brian?
Chris Hebbron
30/06/16 – 06:36
Registration looks like CN 3795 – an impressive looking machine indeed, even if a little “faded” or jaded.
Chris Youhill
30/06/16 – 10:11
The Motor Transport Yearbook for 1929 gives Barlow and Fisher as a company registered 24th July 1929 at Ford, Ridgeway, Derbyshire, but with registered office at Brierley House, Gleadless, Sheffield. The directors were A D Fisher, W H Barker and J F Skelton. Booth and Fisher is not listed at that time (nor is Joseph Booth) – Booth’s partnership with Donald Fisher appears to date from the mid 1930s, although the limited company of that name was only formed much later.
Peter Delaney
01/07/16 – 06:06
Gilford used the Gruss air springs on the 168SD and the 168OT from late 1929, the Front Wheel Drive prototypes also had them but the Zeus and Hera did not, as this is either a 15SD or a 166SD it was built without them. As far as I can see the other OEMs users of the Gruss equipment in the UK were Albion with the AM463 RAF ambulance and Crossley with the IGL8 Indian Army lorry.
Stephen Allcroft
31/12/16 – 16:27
Chris, apologies for the delay in replying to your question, don’t look at the site very often. Yes you are quite correct, WX 3567 is currently being restored at East Anglia Transport Museum, Carlton Colville.
Ideal Service (R Taylor & Sons) 1934 Gilford 168 OT ??? 32
This superb vehicle was supplied new to R Taylor & Sons, t/a Ideal Service, Cudworth, in May 1934. PSVC lists show this to be a Gilford 168 OT, chassis number 12181. It is shown as being a thirtytwo-seater of unknown make. I suspect that the destination aperture and domed peak will be sufficient to lead the OBP sleuths to a simple identification of the coach-builder responsible. This was with showman J Heyes of Norwich by 1950 and moved again in 1958 to WH Smith (non PSV), Salford.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
05/12/17 – 14:14
Love seeing pictures of old Gilfords. Have connection with them through my grandfather who test drove the chassis when they were built in Bellfield Works, High Wycombe around 1930.
Andrew Stevens
07/12/17 – 08:45
Yes, I recall seeing a few of them when I used to tour the showmen’s vehicles at funfairs. Does someone know how the Gruss springs worked?
Chris Hebbron
08/12/17 – 07:12
About halfway down on the following web page is a description and picture of a Gilford, possibly a 168OT, of Ideal Service, Cudworth, and it is suggested that it might be YG 7518. Clicking on the thumbnail picture gets a slightly bigger view, which shows several differences from the fairground machine, notably the angular front destination indicator and the much lower build of the side panelling. If it is, indeed, the same vehicle, then these modifications might have been undertaken later in the life of the machine to modernise its appearance. //www.svvs.org/help49.shtml
Roger Cox
09/12/17 – 07:35
Roger, in his book ‘Independents in Western Yorkshire’ Neville Mercer writes that both Taylor and Wray had one Gilford each, the Wray one being registered HE 5684. I think the one in your link is more likely to be that of H Wray and it looks shorter than the one above but apparently their seating capacities were the same at 32.
Chris Barker
10/12/17 – 06:22
I am sure that you are right, Chris. The vehicle on the svvs site is clearly different from YG 7518, and must be the Wray example.
Roger Cox
11/12/17 – 06:57
The one registered HE 5684 is shown in PSVC lists as chassis 11668, also a 168OT with 32-seat body of unknown make and delivered new in April 1932 to H.Wray (Ideal)
Les Dickinson
12/12/17 – 08:39
To answer Chris H’s last question, I have no personal knowledge of Gruss air springs, but have found https://www.google.com/patents/US1692035 which is the patent description registered in the USA in 1924. I haven’t had the patience to read through all the print with its OCR errors, but the images give the general idea!
Geoff Pullin
15/12/17 – 07:25
Gruss air springs were auxiliary front suspension units working in concert with standard leaf springs. The travel of the air springs must have occurred at the base of the units, similar to the Hydragas units on my Rover 100 (aka Metro) cars. Looking at this picture of a 1920 Haynes touring car, it shows that the front ends of the leaf springs were attached not directly to the chassis but to the bases of the Gruss units, which were themselves rigidly fixed to the chassis. Whilst acting as a complementary springing medium, the air springs would have also offered a degree of damping action and roll resistance in the days of otherwise unsophisticated suspension systems. www.shorpy.com/node/
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
J W Fieldsend Ltd (Salford) 1961 Ford Thames Trader 570E Plaxton C41F
I feel fairly sure that the above shot was taken at the 5th National Coach Rally which started in Wigan and finished in Blackpool where this shot was taken. According to a Buses Illustrated report on the event it was a very foggy morning so much so that only 20 of the 47 entrants had arrived at the starting point in time, but due to the bad weather conditions the penalties made to late arrivals were discarded for this particular rally. The Fieldsend coach above was driven by J T Wareham and came second in the 30ft and under class mind you I found out that the year before Mr Wareham won National Driver of the Year award in the same coach. It is also interesting to note that TRJ 731 was one of only seven built prior to 1965 at the rally that year.
Is this a typo or simply bad info? The Plaxton Embassy IV body was only produced for one season – 1964, not 1961.
David Oldfield
The info for the Ford was TRJ was from March 1961 and URJ was from July 1961 and this info from Bus Lists Plaxton page 602353 TRJ 731 Fd 570E 510E53471 C41F 5/1961 Fieldsend, Salford
Peter
Thanks for that. I have to say, then, that either Bus Lists is wrong – which according to registration chronology looks unlikely – or it needs further investigation. I can say with absolute certainty that that is a 1964 body; the design was only produced in that year. Was it new in 1961, stored and not bodied until 1964? Was it involved in an accident and rebodied? Did Fieldsend’s do what Manchester Corporation did – have a block of registrations which covered about five years? (Highly unlikely). More questions than answers. [For what it’s worth, according to Bus Lists, all the “surrounding” Ford/Embassys were of the Embassy I type, only just introduced in 1961.
David Oldfield
Intrigued by your shot of Thames TRJ 731, not least because it carries a version of the Embassy body produced only in 1964, a fact which is clearly at odds with its registration (and, on checking a chassis listing) its date of manufacture. Presumably the original Plaxton body had been replaced by the one illustrated. Does anybody have details of the accident/fire/etc which made this necessary? Fieldsends’ livery was particularly unimaginative, cream with a black flash. This style of Embassy bodywork looks much better in a ‘proper’ colour scheme!
Neville Mercer
There is obviously something not quite right here does anyone have any clues that may solve this mystery.
Peter
First a minor correction. The body type is Embassy III not IV, but I agree that the model was only produced for the 1964 season (for which many people were very grateful). I have found another entry in Bus Lists Plaxton lists which may explain it, although if it does then it contains at least one typo. Sticking out like a sore thumb in a block of 1964 Ford 570Es, with registration numbers missing and chassis numbers in the L80 series, is 510E54371, shown as delivered to Victoria, Salford. This is the only entry on the site for that operator, which I’ve never heard of. So, if one of 53471 and 54371 is a typo, and if Victoria = Fieldsend, then TRJ 731 was rebodied in January 1964 with body number 632926
Peter Williamson
Victoria. This company was a subsidiary of Fieldsends the full title being Victoria Garage (Leigh) Ltd another twist is not Leigh, Lancashire but Leigh on Sea, Essex. BLOTW has a vehicle listed under Hackett Leigh, Hackett being the name of the owners of Fieldsends from when the Fieldsend family sold the business until 1983
Tim Presley
Have to disagree with Tim Presley, this vehicle never operated with Victorias of Leigh-on-Sea who were an entirely different company to Hackett (Victoria Coaches) of Leigh, a subsidiary of Fieldsends after the Hackett family bought out Fieldsends and “reversed” their own company into it. The Leigh-on-Sea company was probably most famous for operating a pair of Bristol SC4LK coaches, later sold to Vagg of Knockin Heath.
Neville Mercer
I owe an apology to Tim Presley for stating that the Hackett family of Fieldsends had no connection with the Leigh-on-Sea company known as Victoria Coaches. Further research shows that the Hacketts purchased three different Southend-area coach companies in 1958 and amalgamated them into Victoria Coaches (Leigh-on-Sea) Ltd, presumably taking the title from that of their company coincidentally based in Leigh, Lancashire. By 1964 the Essex company had been sold to a locally based proprietor, however, so my belief that the Ford had never run for the Leigh-on-Sea company is still correct. Incidentally, while the Fieldsends business and its associates (which also included Cash of Urmston) were owned and run by J. and W. Hackett, a Mr Hubert Hackett of All Saints in Manchester was running a parallel coaching empire in the 1950s including such companies as Timperley Coaches. Was he related to the other two Hacketts?
Neville Mercer
10/05/11 – 07:22
No Hubert Hackett was no relation. A bit of further information for you Fieldsends, Salford also acquired Wheatleys of Patricroft around the same time as Cash the Southend business was run by Arthur Hackett with Jim Hackett, Stan Hackett running the North West business
Tim Presley
07/07/11 – 06:33
Fortunately the PSVC recently published their information on buses with Salford registrations in their Journal, and this confirms that TRJ 731 was indeed rebodied. The full known history is: New 5/61 to J W Fieldsend, Salford; withdrawn 5/63 To Victoria Service Station, Salford, rebodied Plaxton 632936 C41F 1/64; withdrawn 11/69 To E W Kemp, Chillenden 4/70 To T Rowland (Terry”s Coaches), Faversham 12/75 To D C Farmer, Kennington 6/78; sold 3/81
Michael Wadman
17/08/12 – 10:19
So nice to see a photo of TRJ 731 again. J.T.Wareham was my father and I remember the rallies well. Sadly pictures of that time are long lost. Dad started working with Wheatleys and stayed with the company when Fieldsends took over.
John Wareham
07/09/12 – 07:43
re TRJ 731 it was in a rta in 1962 and rebodied in 1964 it was on the miners run going to Wigan to pickup miners for the new pit Agecroft. Fieldsends had 3 or 4 buses on this run.
Bill
07/09/13 – 08:30
Re age of TRJ’s body.. not sure which year the 5th rally was.. but I do remember the 4th rally when J T Wareham (my father) won the coach driver of the year.. he not only won that, but 9 of the 10 classes that year… the only one he didn’t get was called the Cours d’Elegance I think for the smartest bus.. he said it was maybe due to his bus being older than the others.. if anyone has a link to the Eccles Journal/Manchester Evening News or any other article to this achievement I would be very grateful as a few newspapers carried the story with a pic of Dad and Mr Fieldsend with his trophies..or may have been a Mr Hackett not sure.
Pam Hardy (Wareham)
20/09/13 – 18:10
I think your father would have been photographed with Mr Hackett as my grandfather and founder of Fieldsend’s Coaches died in 1957. If anyone has any knowledge and/or photographs about my grandfather J.W. Fieldsend I would be obliged and interested.
Jane Hardwick (nee Fieldsend)
19/05/14 – 17:56
Just got a 1960 reg Thames trader truck from Switzerland but the cabin looks like a bus front chassis number 510E20663. Any information or details on this please or where to find out where it was built.
Derek Davies
22/07/14 – 14:37
Interesting to see these as I wouldn’t have recognised them as T.Traders. However I have just seen another picture, for which I can only supply a link as it isn’t mine, which shows a bus with a conventional T.Trader lorry front panel. //tinyurl.com/ picture number 62. I found this via the PSV Circle Photo Archive section 2.
John Lomas
23/07/14 – 06:41
That Trader with the lorry front is a must for the ugly bus page!
Phil Blinkhorn
23/07/14 – 10:00
You were ahead of me there, Phil, for it being a contender for an ugly bus: it seems to look worse than on the lorry version. I recall that the lorries always had a badge with 4D on the side, denoting, I assume, a 4-cylinder diesel engine. It always sounded rough! I hope the coach had a more appropriate engine than that!
Chris Hebbron
23/07/14 – 14:48
4D is also a pun, Chris. FourD/Ford. The beauty and simplicity for small operators was that parts and maintenance was cheap because of interchangeability with the lorries (not trucks!!!) which were produced in far larger numbers. The engine and gearbox would therefore be identical. I heard it said that one reason Ford got off to a good start in and after 1958 was that their diesel engine was smoother and quieter than the Bedford. It is certainly true that the Leyland option was always superior to the Bedford when choosing diesel and that Bedford never achieved with diesels the smoothness and superiority achieved with their petrol engines in either the OB or the SB. This is maybe why Salopia had their unique VAM3 coaches – with the 330 petrol engine more commonly found in the SB3.
David Oldfield
26/07/14 – 06:45
The Thames Trader 570E had a 6-cylinder engine which, as David says, was “sweeter” (in the words of more than one owner-driver I have met) than the equivalent Bedford. It therefore goes without saying that it was also “sweeter” than the 4D, whose main objective always seemed to be to shake its vehicle to pieces during tickover. There were lorries with the 6-cylinder engine as well, badged as 6D, but I think they were produced in far fewer numbers.
Peter Williamson
27/07/14 – 06:48
Even in my younger, more naive, days, I’d twigged the pun, but only thought about it AFTER I’d sent the post. Thx for clarifying the engine type as 6D and for confirming my belief that the 4D engine was as unrefined as it sounded! Maybe its origins were from a Fordson tractor!
Chris Hebbron
07/10/17 – 07:18
I am the Grandson of Henry Freeman Sarjeant the late proprietor of Sarjeant Brothers Buses of Cheriton. I noted with interest the mention of that firm in the post about Fieldsends coaches and the sale of one of their coaches to Sarjeant Bros. When my grandfather died, my Grandmother in her grief burned all records of the firm along with many family photographs. I wonder, would anyone have any photographic records of Sarjeant Bros buses? The company was sold to East Kent Road car Company in June 1953.
Ian Sarjeant
08/10/17 – 07:50
I don’t know whether this is another company, “Sargeants”, or a miss-spelt Sarjeants. //www.sct61.org.uk/
John Lomas
09/10/17 – 07:27
John – the vehicle in the photo you linked to belonged to Sargeants of Kington in Herefordshire, whereas the Sarjeants referred to above were in Cheriton, which is in Kent. So I rather doubt that there is any connection, other than the similarity of the sound of the name!
Nigel Frampton
14/10/17 – 07:12
I have a photograph of Bedford OB LKM 55 in Sarjeant Bros. livery at Folkestone en route to Dymchurch via Hythe. The photograph is copyright of J.T. Wilson. I am happy to send the spare photo I have to Ian Sarjeant. I also have photos of EBA 857 the ex-Fieldsend OB acquired by Sarjeants and subsequently sold to East Kent with LKM 55. The pictures of EBA 857 are all in East Kent livery.
Mike Harvey
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/12/17 – 11:52
The discussion on Leigh-on-Sea, Essex is of interest. My grandfather owned Victoria Coaches and I remember the parking lot with 120 coaches at the top of Elm Road in Leigh. I recall the Fieldsends and Plaxton names from when my father Phillip Parsons ran the company for grandad. Any further information on this connection would be of great interest to me.
East Kent Road Car Co Ltd 1960 Ford Thames 570E Harrington Crusader Mk1 C41F
East Kent Road Car Co Ltd. bought this smart unique vehicle into the fleet at the start of the 1960’s, this was a common sight with the coach touring fleets around the country but for East Kent, this was a one off. A Ford Thames Trader 570E #510E34629 with Harrington #2147 C41F body was new in January 1960 to supplement and update its excursion fleet (1xBedford OB; OKE 470 & 2x Bedford SB; GFN 600/1) on the Isle of Thanet, but this work began to wain and TJG 440 found itself regularly working the express runs to London. This vehicle was an elegant looking coach and stood out against the regular “boxlike” London express vehicles of the TFN & WFN batches which East Kent used at the time. This view taken in the works section at the back of Westwood depot, in pristine condition and ready for another excursion around the countryside depicted in “The Darling Buds of May”, the Garden of England. What other rare, unusual or odd looking pictures of PSV’s do you have out there, I look forward to seeing some more very special photos.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ron Mesure
26/01/15 – 06:31
This is certainly an interesting variation, Ron, of the ‘normal’ Cavalier body. I’ve never seen one like this, with a gentle slope forward of the emergency door.
Chris Hebbron
03/09/15 – 07:09
Thanks, lovely to see another old picture of my bus!
Steve
05/09/15 – 07:08
I’ve looked back at my records and have found that I saw this coach at Walton on the Naze on August 28th 1975 while it was with Viceroy but sadly I didn’t take a photo. Please don’t tell me that was forty years ago because that would make me feel very old.
Nigel Turner
01/12/19 – 07:39
I am really pleased to find out that this fine old bus still exists! She features in several East Kent books I have. What is her current state of preservation, and will she be back on the road in the future? I’m just an East Kent bus fan, and old vehicle enthusiast.
