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Southampton Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – OCR 149F – 105

Southampton Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - OCR 149F - 105

Southampton Corporation
1968
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
East Lancs H45/31F

OCR 149F entered service with Southampton City Transport on 1 July 1968 as fleet number 105, (note – not Southampton Corporation Transport since elevation to City status in 1964. (But posted here under Corporation to keep the Southampton fleet postings under one heading.) This vehicle acted as a “prototype” for the other 19 of the batch, which entered service in September and October of that year. Despite this, the fleet list in the otherwise-excellent history by A K Macfarlane-Watt records her as OCR 149G but as can be seen below was clearly ‘F’ registered.

OCR 149F_2

She is an Atlantean PDR1/1 with East Lancs H76F bodywork. She is seen in Portswood Road, parked outside the depot, on 31 August 1981. This was the final day of ‘conductor’ operation in Southampton (at least until Deregulation) except for the occasional failure in the system when a Fitter would be called upon to drive while an Inspector took the fares. I experienced this several times!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

26/01/14 – 17:33

It was at about this time that Leyland started sorting out the Atlantean’s problems. Between 1968 and 1972, improvements were made which culminated in the introduction of the AN68 in 1972. This is what the Atlantean should have been from the start and it became by far the best first generation rear-engined decker. The Daimler Fleetline was always a good bus and, after take over by LMC, replaced the dreadful disasters known as the PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans as Leyland’s low-height deckers. By offering both the Gardner and the Leyland engines, all bases were covered. Of course the AN68 eventually formed the backbone of both Southampton and Portsmouth fleets – and myriad others too.

David Oldfield

27/01/14 – 08:14

Thanks for this Pete. I’ve been doing some research into the end of crew operation around the UK and the previous information I had obtained (from where, I don’t recall) was that Southampton’s last crew routes were the 7 and 9 from Lordshill to Weston around 1984/5. So whilst that info is quite detailed, it’s substantially different from 31/08/1981. I’ll trust your date with your personal experiences!

Dave Towers

27/01/14 – 09:28

David O and Dave T, thanks for your comments. My first experience of a Daimler Fleetline was in Birmingham, going back to City Centre on the 55 route from Saltley after an interview: 3344. I thought then how much better it seemed to perform than the Atlanteans Ribble were using. The vehicle illustrated was simply “parked” and not taking part in the formal City Tour, with the Guy Arabs and Regent Vs all sporting clusters of balloons. Photos available of them if required! By 1984/5, we were very much into the driver only era, even with the local NBC operator, Hants & Dorset. The Routemasters introduced after Deregulation were withdrawn in January 1989.

Pete Davies

29/06/14 – 17:23

There seems to be some confusion about dates here. 31 August 1981 (a bank holiday) was the last day of operation of rear platform buses in Southampton, and was celebrated with a tour and commemorative tickets. Crew operation did, however, continue, but with Atlanteans, and I would think that 1985 would have been the correct date for the introduction of full OPO. In 1981, I was working at the Civic Centre (city hall) in an administrative capacity, but in 1983 I transferred to the Transport Department, and we still had conductors then – as Dave Towers correctly says, on the 7/9 group of services between Weston and the Lordshill/Aldermoor area.
The end of crew operation was accompanied by the introduction of the no change farebox system, which was considered in certain quarters to be an unwise decision in the period before deregulation. Given the time spent discussing this aspect of the change, I would be reasonably sure that the conductors continued until 1985.
Deregulation came in October 1986, and Southern Vectis started their competitive Solent Blue Line venture the following spring, with conductors and making great play of the fact that they gave change. SCT could not ignore that, and introduced Routemasters soon after. Later on, the preserved Regent V that had run the ‘last open platform bus’ tour (401) was transferred back to the bus operator from the Museums Department, and re-entered service. Some of us, who had travelled on that last open platform tour, wondered if we had a case for a refund!

Nigel Frampton

30/06/14 – 07:03

Thanks Nigel. I’ll change my spreadsheet back to “c. 1985” and hope that somewhere some more information may come to light!

Dave Towers

30/06/14 – 11:38

Welcome to the forum, Nigel. Do you still live in Shirley? I bow to your “insider” knowledge!

Pete Davies

01/07/14 – 06:49

Thanks for the welcome, Pete. No, not in Shirley any more – but in south west Germany, near to Freiburg!

Nigel Frampton

01/07/14 – 10:54

Be fair, Nigel, Shirley wasn’t THAT bad!

Chris Hebbron

Kevin

Yes, it was most definitely F and all the others were G, even though they were still 0CR with sequential numbers either side of 149. I first saw this “prototype” on display at the Southampton Show and was very excited about the new fleet numbering, although I was wondering what would happen when the numbers caught up to the remaining Guy Arabs 164 and 167 (when they did, of course, these were renumbered 64 and 67 respectively). I seem to remember that one of the next batch of Atlanteans, TTR —H was never delivered because it caught fire and there was forever a gap of one in the Fleet Numbers. Happy days!

Kevin

30/06/17 – 06:39

Kevin – you are quite correct in saying that one of the TTR-H Atlanteans was never delivered (it would have been number 123).
To be strictly correct, it was the bodyworks that caught fire, and several other vehicles were destroyed as well. The chassis of 123 was exported to Australia, where (if I recall correctly) it received a single deck body.

Nigel Frampton

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – KWJ 163D – 163

Sheffield Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - KWJ163D - 163

Sheffield Corporation
1966
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Neepsend H44/33F

There were 40 of these Atlanteans in Sheffield in two batches of 20. This is one of the second batch delivered with blue interiors and wheels together with three rotovents in each side of the upper deck in lieu of sliding windows. These were quite effective in extracting the tobacco fug without causing too much draught but must have been difficult to clean. A facing crossover on the Supertram network now adorns this location allowing trams to reverse in front of the cathedral. The cream and blue livery contrasts with the blackened facade of the National Provincial Bank. I liked these buses with the deep windows in each deck and a touch of modernity with the curved windscreens. Pity the transmission design was not more robust. There was a touch of local pride with the bodies being ‘Built in Sheffield’. The photo was taken in 1967 when the bus was about one year old.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

02/03/14 – 08:19

The rotovents may have extracted smoke but they were worse than useless for providing ventilation in the heat of summer. It’s a moot point about the quality of either these or the contemporary Park Royal bodies as the transmission on the PDR1/2 gave the buses the violent shakes when the buses were at rest. This was even more pronounced if they were left in gear at a stop, traffic lights or give way signs.
Interesting operational point to ponder. The 88 went from Fulwood (one of the wealthiest parts of the city) to Roscoe Bank (a housing estate to the north – just short of Stannington). This was a common feature of cross-city routes – going from a wealthy suburb to a housing estate or a deprived &/or slum area (often in the East End). Did this happen in other towns and cities?

David Oldfield

02/03/14 – 15:42

I think I ought to defend the NatPro bank in this picture, Ian as like most buildings in Central Sheffield by that time, it looks cleaned, and is terracotta and stone. “blackened Facades” in post war Sheffield really were black- for years, people thought the Town Hall was built of coal.
As for vibrations, nothing but nothing can be worse than First’s Optare midibus on the Leeds Citybus route: at every pause, you can feel your brain being vibrated to mush. Progress- what progress?

Joe

03/03/14 – 07:35

Could anyone in the know prove or disprove the story that the wheels on Sheffield buses were red when Labour were in power and blue when the Tories were in power.
On the subject or routes running from rich to poor areas in Leeds the 2 and still run from affluent Roundhay to the vast Middleton estate in the south of the city

Chris Hough

03/03/14 – 07:36

Was this to Sheffield’s own specification, as most of the East Lancs and Neepsend output on rear engined double deckers seems to have been of the Bolton and Southampton style by this time?

Pete Davies

03/03/14 – 07:37

Have I read somewhere that Sheffield painted bus wheels according to the political party running the council? Red when Labour were in power and blue when the Tories were in charge? (the latter infrequently I would imagine)

Michael Keeley

03/03/14 – 07:38

What is the point of the blacked-out window “(not) illuminating” the staircase? Surely the point of a window is to allow light through – the only point of blacking a window out is to keep light out . . . so why build a blacked-out window in to start with?

Philip Rushworth

03/03/14 – 07:38

The pairing of services to rich and poor areas of a city to form a cross-city route may have been quite common for geographical reasons. In a typical city, richer and poorer suburbs have historically grown up on opposite sides of the centre because of the direction of the prevailing winds, the most desirable places to live being upwind of industrial pollution sources. And the most typical cross-city services tend to go from one side of the city to the other.
Fulwood to Roscoe Bank probably did not fall clearly into this pattern – both termini being basically west of centre – but I don’t know if other Sheffield services did.

Peter Williamson

03/03/14 – 15:13

Apparently the first Sheffield vehicle with blue wheel hubs was Atlantean/Park Royal No. 340, exhibited at the Earl’s Court Motor Show in 1963/4.

Geoff Kerr

03/03/14 – 16:01

Peter- this idea of joining places for routes across a city works well in its simplest form: but you wonder sometimes if it gave all drivers (and their buses) a share of the nice, quieter bits or even if the poorer areas subsidised the richer- who still had to be served. Sheffield (and Huddersfield and some other places) is not what it seems on a map. Steep river valleys mean that places in different valleys look close but are a long way apart by bus, if it has to go into town down one valley then out again up another. A trap for the unwary modern bus executive, in a safe office, miles away.
Philip- I think blacked out windows did let light in- the glass is black, not painted- think of those sinister black Saturday night specials (but now illegal up front).
And, all, I think it was thought that the blue wheels co-incided too co-incidentally with the Tories actually gaining power- but it was such an odd happening that I think people let them have their moment of glory!

Joe

03/03/14 – 16:59

Most of Sheffield’s main cross-city bus services were based on the tram routes they replaced, and over the years the tramway network had been gradually extended to serve the large housing estates as they were developed in the 1920’s and 30’s, and linking them to the industrial area of the east end where the vast majority of Sheffielders went to work every day.
One of the last extensions to the tramway system, if not the very last, was along Abbey Lane, a highly desirable area of the city where the trams ran in a central reservation amid much greenery and overall affluence. In fact, to highlight what a city of contrasts Sheffield is, the last route to be converted to buses ran from Beauchief, the site of a ruined abbey at one end of Abbey Lane, through the city centre to the aptly named Vulcan Road, a siding amid acres of forges, steelworks and soot-blackened terraced houses. And as if to add insult to injury, the cars passed right by Wards yard in Attercliffe on the way, where they were eventually reduced to scrap metal to feed those very same blast furnaces.

Dave Careless

03/03/14 – 17:03

Yes. Roscoe Bank and Fulwood are close as the crow flies – but that is up to Lodge Moor, across Rivelin Valley and down from Stannington. By 88, the distance is at least double – if not more. The route shape is more like a (open ended) paper clip with the U turn in town. The current 25 (Bradway – Woodhouse) is like a letter A. South West, North to Town and then South East.

David Oldfield

04/03/14 – 07:11

On the subject of desk wallahs not knowing the terrain a classic was the Northern Health Authority which was formed because the east and west coasts were only a few miles apart unfortunately they forgot about the Pennines!

Chris Hough

04/03/14 – 07:12

It’s difficult to tell from the photograph but were these vehicles built to normal height, i.e. 14ft 6in? If they were, then presumably the reason for specifying the PDR1/2 chassis to achieve a flat floor on the lower deck . I know Sheffield had only a minimal requirement for low height/lowbridge double deckers, surely they wouldn’t have ordered forty of them?

Chris Barker

04/03/14 – 08:26

Off the top of my head, I think that in 1966 STD had 99 (a memorable but odd number of) PDR1/2s. The balance had full height Park Royal bodies. I seem to remember that the Neepsend bodies were lower height – but how much lower I don’t know – or whether they were low-height in the accepted sense.

David Oldfield

04/03/14 – 08:28

These buses could fit under the bridge on the old 70 route to Upton, hence they were to a slightly lower overall height.
Fulwood may well be posh, but Stannington isn’t exactly the depths of poverty! It is one of Sheffield’s more desirable council estates. Roscoe Bank has now morphed into Hall Park Head after the terminus moved further up the hill as housing expanded.
The Conservatives were only in power for one year and the wheels were painted from red to blue. However, at certain times, bus wheels have been black as well as blue. It is also worth pointing out that the red line below the bottom blue band only ceased to be applied after the signwriter retired. These days, you would apply it in vinyl.

Neil Hudson

04/03/14 – 12:04

The design was not unique to Sheffield. Bury, Warrington and Coventry had identical or almost identical bodies on vehicles of the same period.
Blacked out windows did let in light but were opaque from the outside for purposes of “modesty” given their position.

Phil Blinkhorn

04/03/14 – 12:05

This style of East Lancs body was also bought by Warrington.

Chris Hough

04/03/14 – 12:05

Stannington is “very nice”. Had I not had to move south with work. Stannington was always high on the list of possible places to live.

David Oldfield

04/03/14 – 15:54

The blacked out window stopped people looking at passengers going up the stairs from the outside it did let a lot of light in just like ambulances and looked the part.

Dragon

05/03/14 – 07:05

Okay, so others bought this same design. Thanks, folks, but was it actually designed FOR an operator or was it the East Lancs/Neepsend ‘standard’ of the time, which some operators (such as Bolton and Southampton) chose not to use?

Pete Davies

05/03/14 – 16:20

Pete. As far as was possible, this was an East Lancs standard design. More to the point, it was well known that there really was no such thing as an East Lancs standard as they were prepared, more than any other coachbuilder, to build a bespoke design for anyone who asked. Bolton were a case in point who had their own individual designs. Southampton’s Atlanteans were really a more modern development or evolution of this earlier design.

David Oldfield

05/03/14 – 16:22

Bolton always incorporated their own ideas into their bodies by the time Southampton bought Atlanteans a single piece wrap round windscreen was standard as was a peak to the front dome.

Chris Hough

Maidstone Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – NKK 243F – 43

Maidstone Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - NKK 243F - 43

Maidstone Corporation
1968
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Massey H43/31F

Maidstone Corporation’s No 43 registration NKK 243F was a rather rare combination of Massey body on the Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 chassis with H43/31F seating being one of only thirty two rear engine chassis bodied by Massey Bros. Of this total Maidstone Corporation bought twenty all on Atlantean chassis No’s 27-46 and Colchester Corporation bought ten also on Atlantean No’s 45-54, the other two went to members of A1 Services of Ardrossan one on the only Daimler Fleetline chassis bodied by Massey which was followed by one on an Atlantean. All thirty two had the same seating layout as the photo’s subject.
Several of Massey’s regular customers who bought from them on front engine chassis chose not to go to them when rear engines became the order of the day which possibly contributed to the later merger with Northern Counties.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

20/04/14 – 09:32

By 1968 most bodybuilders were producing bodies with a more shaped frontal aspect on rear engined chassis but to my eye this is quite an attractive functionally boxy body, aided by a simple but effective livery.

Ian Wild

20/04/14 – 17:36

EKP 232C

I Worked for Connor & Graham, Easington East Yorkshire in 1982 and we had three of them, I was told he bought two and later the dealer phoned and gave the third one free, the bodywork was very sound as it was used on school run from Sunk Island to Withernsea and to Hull on Saturday, I left in 1983 I think they were Maidstone Corporation Nos 28,29 and 31.

Phil Savin

21/04/14 – 06:22

I agree with Ian, although boxlike, I thought the Massey design was quite attractive and far better looking than some other builders designs where curved or wrap-round windscreens were indiscriminately ‘grafted’ on leaving some real ‘hotch potch’ end results. The livery also helps. Tasteful, traditional and practical.

Philip Halstead

21/04/14 – 06:23

Wigan had at least one AN68. Were there any more – for Wigan or anyone else?

David Oldfield

21/04/14 – 10:49

David
Northern Counties bought Massey Bros in 1967.
The final Massey deliveries to Wigan Corporation were Titans FEK1-9F in early 1968.
The first AN68s delivered to Wigan Corporation were NEK1-10K in August 1972.

Dave Farrier

22/04/14 – 05:04

Ah. Right. Obviously NCME then. Not to a Massey outline by any chance?

David Oldfield

24/04/14 – 08:18

London Country borrowed six of these buses during a period of acute vehicle shortage in 1977. They were operated out of Chelsham Garage on the busy 403 group of services across Croydon to Wallington. I rode on several of these at the time, and noted the high standard of internal finish of the Massey bodies, but the PDR1/1 Atlantean did struggle a bit on the long gradient up to Sanderstead Church. In the mid 1960s, Massey double deck design went from the extremely curvaceous to the excessively angular. The Pemberton firm was very late entering the rear engined double deck bus market, and this application of the perpendicular was its eventual offering. It would seem that, from then on, some structural componentry must have been common to rear engined and front engined double deck bus bodywork, because the latter type, hitherto very rounded, then became very squared up. It was as if the firm had become revitalised by memories of its markedly austere wartime utility designs. The bold angularity of these Atlanteans was not unattractive, but the vertical front screens must have given problems with internal reflections from the interior lighting during hours of darkness. I was never a convert to the insipid and rather grubby pale blue and cream livery. To my eye, the colours do not complement each other – the lighter colour would have looked better had it been white with black lining out – but Maidstone really should never have abandoned in the mid 1960s the magnificent ochre and cream livery that I recall adorning the trolleybuses when I was a child living in Kent during the late 1940s. Maidstone, once a proud operator, seemed to go progressively downhill in its metamorphosis from ‘Corporation’ through ‘Borough Council’ to the ultimate horror of ‘Boro’line’ with its truly ghastly blue and yellow, with red and white trim, so called “livery”.
Take a look at this if you don’t believe me. No prizes for guessing the perpetrator of this abominable colour scheme. No wonder the Boro’line outfit eventually went bust. //victoryguy.smugmug.com/Maidstone

Roger Cox

24/04/14 – 08:18

When NCME took over Massey, they moved into the former Massey factory and some subsequent NCME bodies showed a marked Massey influence, particularly around the front of the upper deck. None were identical to past Massey products, however.

Peter Williamson

09/08/17 – 16:58

There is a Leyland Atlantean with Massey body in Northern Ireland which is used as an “activity centre”. The vehicle spends most of the year in under cover storage but has re-emerged this summer. It is devoid of any identity but can only be an ex Colchester or Maidstone example. Did any of the C&G ones go to Ireland, or can anyone reveal more about what this vehicle may be.

Bill Headley

20/02/19 – 06:34

Did the identity of the Massey bodied Atlantean in Northern Ireland ever got established? I too liked the Massey bodied examples. They looked different from the Alexander, MCW, Roe, Northern counties etc.There aren’t many left.

Roy Wolstencroft

22/02/19 – 06:25

I have scrutinized Shane Conway’s excellent ‘Classic Irish Buses’ website and have been unable to find any trace of a Massey-bodied Atlantean. As you’ll gather, the site is pretty thorough. www.classicbuses.co.uk/+Leyland
Bill Headley (above) says that the one in Northern Ireland is devoid of any identity, but it must carry a registration plate, if only a Northern Irish one. Perhaps it could be identified from that.
How close is it possible to get to the said vehicle? There is likely to be some source of identification on it, somewhere.

David Call

Edinburgh Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – ESF 801C – 801

Edinburgh Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - ESF 801C - 801

Edinburgh Corporation
1966
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Alexander H43/31F

This photo shows Edinburgh Corporation 801 ESF 801C taken in 1967, 801 was the corporation’s first Atlantean with Alexander H74F bodywork delivered in February 1966,it was I think the first double deck body with panoramic windows and may have been exhibited at the 1965 Scottish motor show at Kelvin Hall which could explain it’s 1966 delivery. The next batch 802-825 EWS 802-825D with identical Alexander bodies were delivered in October 1966 had the then normal short window bays and these were delivered shortly after 826-850 EWS 826-850 which were Leyland PD3A/2’s with Alexander H70F bodies, canny Scots hedging their bets perhaps.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

19/06/14 – 09:33

Beauty is in the eye, as they say. The big window version of the Alexander “Y” type, was arguably the best looking single deck Bus or D/P of its generation. However, as with the Southdown Queen Mary, for me the big window version of these just didn”t work. The NGT Group had a number of the small window versions, Newcastle Corporation had both large and smaller window types, they also had some rather strange large window types with the stairs on the “wrong” side, and a centre exit. After a series of accidents, the union refused to use the centre exit, and as the vehicles were due for overhaul, the doors were removed and extra seats fitted.

Ronnie Hoye

21/06/14 – 06:29

Centre exits seem to have been a passing fad of the late 1960s. What was the real issue with them, as they seem to be the norm in other countries? I’m aware from reading some of these postings that there were structural problems with some single deck dual door bodies. Or was the main thing that the unions didn’t like them, as Ronnie mentions?

Keith

21/06/14 – 08:55

There were structural problems on double deckers as well. SELNEC had problems in later life with Mancunians. There were problems with accidents and the unions, in the interest of their members, took against them. Meant to reduce time at stops by having all passengers disembark at the centre door, all too often they didn’t and many tried to board there leaving the driver trying to collect fares, deal with any form of pre paid passes and monitor the centre door as well as keeping an eye on the seats remaining, in a difficult position.
Multi doors work well elsewhere where either the bulk of fares are prepaid or there is a second crew member and where some form of load counting actually works – the technology of the time didn’t.

Phil Blinkhorn

21/06/14 – 15:21

Silly question, perhaps, but is it really a LEYLAND Atlantean? I ask because some for Scottish operators had ALBION badges, including Glasgow’s KUS607E which now resides at the St Helens museum.

Pete Davies

22/06/14 – 06:38

KUS 593E

Yes this was definitely a Leyland Atlantean Pete as you can see the figure of Atlas on the badge whereas the Glasgow Albion badged Atlantean’s had the St Andrews cross in it’s place as can be seen on the attached photo of KUS 593E taken a couple of years later in central Glasgow.

Diesel Dave

22/06/14 – 09:05

I seem to remember that the Albion badge on the Atlantean was a Glasgow only spec.

Phil Blinkhorn

22/06/14 – 13:04

Thank you, Dave and Phil!

Pete Davies

23/06/14 – 06:33

It could be that it was more efficient to send several chassis in kit form to be assembled at the Albion works in Glasgow, and then onto Alexander to have the body fitted, rather than one at a time in completed form, after all, the Alexander works was at Falkirk, which is not that far from Glasgow. At the end of the day, any differences would probably be down to badge engineering.

Ronnie Hoye

16/08/14 – 05:49

The “Albion” Atlanteans supplied to Glasgow followed a batch of “Albion” PD3s. Leyland got the blame for deleting half the Albion range in the early 1950s after the Albion takeover, when in actual fact Albion were already in the process of doing just that when financial troubles caught up with them. The Albion badges were applied as a gesture to the Glaswegian population in an attempt to settle the ill-feeling.

Paul

17/08/14 – 07:35

Edinburgh and Lothian stuck with dual doors into the low floor era. The Leeds dual door buses gave 15 plus years of service. In later years they found themselves in such esoteric locations as Ilkley and Skipton following the absorption of WYRCC by Yorkshire Rider.

Chris Hough

Manchester Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – UNB 629 – 3629

Manchester Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - UNB 629 - 3629

Manchester Corporation
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
1959
Metro-Cammell H44/33F

I feel prompted to make a first contribution to your fascinating forum after stumbling across it whilst looking for information concerning the jointly operated Stockport/Manchester Corporations’ Service 16 Chorlton – Stepping Hill.
I was born in Chorlton, attended the grammar school there and recall the day my mother took me for a trip to Stockport on the newly introduced Service 16 on what, to me, was an unusual and interesting single decker with a central exit/entrance. Manchester had no such curiosities (the Royal Tiger ‘Crush Loaders’ with their central doors were still years away and the single deck Leyland (TS5?) used on Service 22 Levenshulme – Eccles was a back loader of sorts.
Little did I know then that I should have the thrill of driving a Royal Tiger on Service 22 myself some 12 or 13 years hence!
All this underlines my love of anything relating to Manchester buses from the period 1958 to 1989 when I finally put my pen away and began drawing my pension. Having worked alongside John Hodkinson in Devonshire Street’s Traffic Office, I was delighted to see his contribution on the piece about jointly operated Service 95/96. In fact it was this that prompted to make contact.
Above is the shiny new Atlantean 3629 at Parker Street on it’s maiden outing, it had spent many weeks in Birchfields Road Garage with the rest of the delivery whilst Union issues were resolved. I remember seeing them there, looking so forlorn, becoming increasingly covered in dust as the weeks dragged by. They had to be put through the wash before going on the road!

Photograph and Copy contributed by David Cooper

10/07/14 – 07:12

David, your piece has brought back many memories of the period when the Evening News had regular articles on the dispute (allegedly sought by management by detailing the vehicles for Northenden depot routes where strong union opposition was expected) and the paper dubbed the vehicles Red Dragons -heaven knows why.
Whilst the majority may have been gathering dust in Birchfields Rd, there were forays driven by management and inspectors. A number of runs were done down Wilmslow Rd during rush hour mornings for some reason, to the bemusement of many a prospective passenger, and one particular day three of the buses were parked at the side of Northenden depot on the public road.
Once the unions and management found agreement the buses entered service on the Wythenshawe routes, then the 50 to Brooklands before moving to Parrs Wood where lower mid panels were often grazed at the tight left turn at the bottom of the ramp!
If I can help with info about the 16 please ask.

Phil Blinkhorn

10/07/14 – 09:55

David I worked with John 1973 – 1975 at Princess Road Depot. Princess Road Depot like so many of the old Manchester Corporation/City Transport depots now gone.

Stephen Howarth

10/07/14 – 11:31

It’s a small world. I too worked with John Hodkinson briefly whilst a Schedules Clerk at Frederick Road, Salford in 1972/73. There were five of us in the Schedules Office – David Broadbent in charge, John, Peter Caunt, George Boswell and myself. I was the lowly junior, the only ‘foreigner’, who commuted every day across from ‘the dark side’ of the moors in Halifax. Incredibly all five of us were enthusiasts, with yet another – the late Keith Healey – working downstairs, it was a wonderful atmosphere to work in – sometimes it seemed more like a hobby than a job. I then took up the position of Traffic Clerk with the Corporation in my home town. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but it was the complete opposite of what I had experienced at SELNEC and boy did I quickly come to regret it!

John Stringer

10/07/14 – 14:05

I’ve done that more than once, John, with both musical and teaching posts. When I’ve arrived at the new job, it’s been a poison chalice. “Beware of what you wish for …..”

David Oldfield

11/07/14 – 06:55

John and I have exchanged notes of our experiences in the Halifax Traffic Office. In 1964 I travelled 200 miles to take up that job, but the atmosphere was such that I quit within two years. That was 10 years or so before John gave it a go, so it shows how deep seated was the malaise in the place. The Halifax GM might have been a ‘character’, but the tunnel vision at senior subordinate levels was utterly dispiriting.

Roger Cox

11/07/14 – 06:55

There were also a couple of times when I went out of the frying pan etc………………..also!

Chris Hebbron

11/07/14 – 06:56

Phil, such intimate knowledge of the entrance to Parrs Wood Depot via the ramp suggests to me that you might have had personal experience. You have certainly roused my curiosity, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
The early Fleetlines and Atlanteans were, in my view, nowhere near as enjoyable to drive as a back loader.
Most disturbing factor was the relative absence of sound from the engine. It all seemed and of course was, so remote from the ‘sharp end’. And then there was that awful ‘yaw’ (for want of a better word) that resulted from traversing a series of gullies with the nearside wheels. So much easier to control it when driving a conventional bus.
I never got to drive a GM ‘Standard’. Perhaps they had had all the initial quirks ironed out?
Those names from the Frederick Road Schedules Office certainly took me back, John. I worked with almost all those guys at some stage or other, though left Devonshire Street in 1972, returning in 1974 after a sojourn in the Hotel business. John H. could always be relied upon to provide the answers whenever we Mancunians needed to know something with a Salford bias. And I seem to remember he had an affinity with a certain Devon-based coaching operation!!
I could reminisce all night but I can almost hear the yawns.

TWA 520

To close, here is a shot taken at the back of Hyde Road Works of 3520 awaiting disposal. She never looked right to me in Selnec livery but was a fascinating bus to drive – usually on Service 1 – Gatley.

David Cooper

11/07/14 – 11:31

David, my knowledge of the ramp at Parrs Wood comes from regular observation over the period from 1958 to 1965 when I would disembark from what was originally the #1 outside the depot to walk across Kingsway to take the #9,#16 or #80 to home on the way back from school. I also had irregular access to the depot through an friend’s neighbour who was an inspector.

3520 looks forlorn in your photo. It looked at its best when on the #1 in original livery, immaculate as Parrs Wood always turned out its star performers, and sounding more like an RT than a PD2.
A few more observations about this batch of Atlanteans. They were delivered with thin, low back seats which were non standard. The rear wheel discs, standard on new deliveries at the time, were absent – probably to the relief of the fitters. Was Albert Neal compensating for the extra weight of the longer bus and higher passenger capacity in his continual fight to keep costs down? Whatever the reason, the next foray into rear engined buses, Fleetlines delivered in 1962, had standard seats and rear wheel discs. The Atlanteans were re-seated with standard seats from withdrawn Burlingham trolleybuses around 1966.
Some drivers complained about the intrusion of both conductors and passengers into their workspace. Another driver complaint was lack of nearside visibility. There were signs instructing passengers not to stand on the platform area, something many did on back loaders after leaving their seat on approach to their stop, but the habit died hard. A more permanent annoyance for the drivers was the door construction with two part windows in each folding leaf, giving a restricted view to the left – and the doors would not open when in gear. The Fleetlines had full length glass in each leaf.
Schoolboys quickly learned where the emergency engine stop was. Located above the bustle on the nearside, it was in reach and many a stop near schools became prolonged until authority in the shape of inspectors and head teachers jointly overcame the problem.
Manchester took a long time to be convinced about the rear engine layout. Combined with the City of Manchester Police’s antipathy to 30ft buses in the city centre, it was nothing short of a revolution when the Mancunian appeared, just ten short years after 3629 and its sisters.

Phil Blinkhorn

13/07/14 – 06:54

Wow, may I join the reunion party please? I also worked at Devonshire Street, with David Cooper, David Broadbent and George Boswell among others. However, I was at the other end of the office, beyond Fred Thomas’s goldfish bowl, wherein he sat smoking his pipe and giggling to himself about the latest traffic absurdity. After three years on the lowest grade I was told that there was no prospect of promotion in the foreseeable future (which I can’t understand now, because we all knew that SELNEC was coming, and that changed everything). Basically it was dead men’s shoes and no-one was thinking of dying, so if you wanted to get on you had to move around. So I moved to Newport, which proved to be my poisoned chalice, and after five months I left the transport industry for good.
The photo of a brand new Atlantean on the 101 stand reinforces a memory I’ll never forget. The 13-year-old me was so gobsmacked by these things that I just stood there while the entire 101 allocation came and went and the first one came back again. I suppose I could have got on one, but I had no idea where Greenbrow Road was.

David, you may like to look at www.sct61.org.uk/index/operator/mn

Peter Williamson

13/07/14 – 09:26

Hi All! Maybe this page should be titled “Old Boys Club”!
Comments have referred to the ramp into Parrs Wood. When the guard-walking-in-front-of-the-bus type smog used to come down, the garage staff used to keep one bay clear inside the depot so the cars that had faithfully followed the bus to find their way home, found themselves inside the depot instead and needed to get out!

John Hodkinson

13/07/14 – 18:22

Peter, that SCT.61 site was new to me (I don’t get out much these days!) and I found it totally absorbing – rather like ‘The Manchester Bus’ but with the superfluous bits left out. Many thanks.

David Cooper

14/07/14 – 07:46

Here’s a link to how 3520 looks nowadays – much happier but evidently suffering from delusions of Hyde Roadness. www.flickr.com/photos/

Peter Williamson

14/07/14 – 09:53

Apart from the blinds, that could be 3520 on any day of its first couple of years in service.

Phil Blinkhorn

14/07/14 – 17:25

Like John I had a “couldn’t believe my eyes” moment when I first saw an Atlantean. It was an exciting day in 1960. I had just passed my “eleven plus” and as a reward my mum bought me my first “Combined volume” loco spotting book. We made the purchase in the city centre when changing buses en route to visit relatives. We just missed the #101, which was one of the usual 44xx Daimlers so we stood waiting for the next one, which turned out to be my first sighting of an Atlantean. On seeing the flat front, my first thought was “How did a trolleybus get away from the wires?” but then I noticed the number – 3627 – so it was obviously a Leyland. And we were going to ride on it, two bits of excitement in one day! I couldn’t wait for our return journey that evening, but to my great disappointment it was just another CVG6. A few weeks later we made another visit, riding on 3630 and 3628, but after that they disappeared from the #101.
In the autumn of 1963 I noticed an occasional Atlantean running through Middleton, my home town, with “special” on the blinds. These were driver training runs before the batch was transferred to Queens Road Garage, at first on the #163 but soon moving to the #121. I became a regular traveller on the #121 in the school holidays, just for the pleasure of riding on these buses. I always went for the inward facing front seat, which offered not only good forward vision but also a chance to watch the driver.
In later life, some of the batch had minor differences. 3621 had “LEYLAND” spelt across the rear bonnet in separate letters (I believe this one also had an O.680 engine at one point), 3626 had a much newer steering wheel with a slightly different design, and our friend 3629 was only a 77 seater while all the others seated 78, the difference being the inward facing front seat which was a treble on most of the batch, but a double on 3629. Finally, 3624 was the only example to receive Selnec livery.
Eighteen months later Queens Road Depot got the first of the PDR1/2 Atlanteans (3721-35) for the #163, but these were very different sounding, thanks to their Daimler gearboxes.

Don McKeown

Coventry Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – CDU 348B – 348

Coventry Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - CDU 348B - 348Coventry Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - CDU 348B - 348

Coventry Corporation
1965
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Willowbrook H44/32F

This is one of a batch of 22 very contentious Leyland Atlanteans with Willowbrook H44/32F bodies delivered to Coventry Transport in January 1965, the issue being that they were Leylands delivered to the home city of Daimler who since the war had been almost the only supplier of buses to the company. The order may have been made to apply some pressure to Daimler for some reason which appears to have been successful as a similar batch of Fleetlines with near identical bodies were delivered within six months these were followed by more Fleetlines with ECW and then East Lancs bodies until the mid seventies, I think one of the Atlanteans appeared at the 1964 Earls Court show.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

20/07/14 – 17:32

In Commercial Motor magazine dated 11th September 1964 the following report was published.

cov_atl

“Leyland Motors Ltd. has introduced a new version of the Atlantean rear-engined chassis which is fitted with a drop-centre rear axle, permitting a straight-through, stepless gangway in the lower saloon.
Delivery is now being made to Coventry Corporation of 22 buses of this type, fitted with 76-seat bodies by Willowbrook Ltd. Overall height of the new vehicles is 14 ft. 0 in. unladen, 4 in, less than the normal ‘highbridge’ Atlantean, yet ample headroom is still provided in each saloon.
One of Coventry’s new Atlanteans will be shown on the Willowbrook stand at the Commercial Motor Show, and several other examples employing the new chassis will also be seen. Side and front elevations of the new Willowbrook bodied Atlantean are shown in the accompanying drawing. Ample luggage space is a feature of this body.”

Stephen Howarth

21/07/14 – 07:26

Dave, if your theory is correct then the issue with Daimler may well have been price. I have heard that Salford’s change of allegiance from Daimler to Leyland in 1963 was for that reason, although they of course never went back.

Peter Williamson

21/07/14 – 07:27

Could the idea be sold in Coventry, then, Stephen, because the Atlanteans had Daimler running gear and the great BL meltdown had begun? Or am I wrong?
These do look like uglibus candidates- I haven’t seen one, but Yorkshire Traction had some…. www.flickr.com/photos/  
The glass fibre fronts & domes look like add on body kits. Interestingly the Coventry examples look distinctly under ventilated, whilst Tracky go to the other extreme.

Joe

21/07/14 – 07:29

These Atlanteans were of the newly introduced PDR1/2 model which was fitted with a Daimler dropped centre rear axle and gearbox, which was intended to facilitate lowheight bodywork without the need for a sunken side gangway at the rear, which was a feature of early lowbridge Atlanteans based on the PDR1/1 model. I don’t think Coventry had any need of lowbridge vehicles, but the inclusion of Daimler components would have standardisation benefits when the fleet later included Fleetlines. Presumably this was always the intention. Manchester Corporation also bought the PDR1/2 model (132 of them) alongside their 130 Fleetlines with MCW “Orion” bodies. I always thought these had a rather odd mixture of sound effects.
Many years later, I would drive Daimler Fleetlines with Leyland Engines (bought by Crosville from Southdown) which felt more like Atlanteans than Fleetlines, the engine sound on these tended to dominate the gearbox sound. These buses also had direct air gearchange and a step from the platform to the lower deck – both “Atlanteanish” features.
I thought these Willowbrook bodies were a very attractive design, enhanced by the Coventry livery. They introduced a more conventionally shaped service number blind, after years of the rather odd arrangement with equally sized and shaped destination and service number screens.

Don McKeown

21/07/14 – 15:21

At the time of the order Daimler was an independent company that was part of the Jaguar group along with Guy. At the time Leyland Motors was a very profitable concern it all went pear shaped after the shot gun marriage between them and BMC in the late sixties. Although Leyland were already being starting to give the industry what they wanted and not the other way round.

Chris Hough

21/07/14 – 15:28

When Coventry issued the tender for this order, they specified a low floor design, presumably thinking that only Daimler could deliver such a vehicle. However Leyland, no doubt spotting the opportunity to sell to Daimler’s home city hastily put together their own low floor design. They won the order on price but delivery was delayed by development problems. This is not the livery that these buses carried at delivery. The maroon was originally only applied to the lower skirt, a band above the lower windows, another below the upper windows and the roof. The destination blinds also differed, as shown on the blueprint image.

John McSparron

22/07/14 – 06:53

The Yorkshire Traction vehicle shown in the link above was one of four that were diverted from a Devon General order, indeed they entered service in Devon General livery and ran in that form for some time.
Before eventually finishing up in the nondescript NBC colours shown in the photo they did run in traditional YTC Livery of BET crimson and light cream, a combination that really suited this bodywork.

Andrew Charles

22/07/14 – 06:54

Most sources say that although the PDR1/2 did have a Daimler gearbox, the drop-centre rear axle was the Albion Lowlander unit rather than the one from the Fleetline.
With regard to the odd sound effects in Manchester, the only engine officially offered in the PDR1/2 was the O600, since the Daimler gearbox, at that early stage in its history, couldn’t take the extra torque of the O680 in Atlantean fettle. However, Manchester wanted O680 engines for durability rather than extra power, and specified a specially derated version at 130bhp. This may account for their subdued and breathy engine note, which allowed the gearbox to sing more prominently than in some other applications.

Peter Williamson

I am sure that Peter W is correct that the PDR1/2 was fitted with a Daimler (‘Daimatic’) gearbox, but not axle.
Further to Don McK, I don’t recall that the inclusion of a Daimler gearbox in the PDR1/2 was a consideration in the decision to buy it – the decision was based solely upon a significantly lower tender price from Leyland, and, even then, the order was placed only after furious council debate.
I’ve always presumed that Leyland deliberately tendered low in order to capitalise on the potential publicity, and this it certainly did – for several months, for instance, there was a standing advertisement on the rear cover of ‘Buses Illustrated’, the message of which was ‘Coventry, home to the British motor industry, chooses Leyland..’, or words to that effect. Leyland did, at least, acknowledge that Coventry, and not Leyland, was home to the British motor industry, and its advertising strategy seems to have failed to impress, since I think the Fleetline comfortably outsold the PDR1/2, the latter proving problematic.

David Call

25/07/14 – 12:19

This style of body by Willowbrook had a very long life it was used as late as 1976 to re-body a bus damaged in the Derby depot fire.

Chris Hough

26/07/14 – 06:42

I would challenge the theory that the Daimler gearbox in the Atlantean PDR1/2 could not cope with the torque of the O.680 engine. At that time, the standard Atlantean setting for the O.680 was 150 bhp at 2000 rpm, with a maximum torque of 485 lb ft at 1000 rpm. The corresponding figures for the contemporary 6LX were 150 bhp at 1700 rpm, and 485 lb ft torque at 1050 rpm. Thus the Gardner delivered identical output at rather lower rpm. Any derating of the O.680 in the Atlantean PDR1/2 must have been undertaken for economy reasons, bearing in mind that the Leyland engine required an extra 300 rpm to produce the same power as the Gardner. Reducing the governed speed of the O.680 to 1700 rpm would have reduced the output to 130 bhp.

Roger Cox

27/07/14 – 06:41

I don’t think any early Fleetlines had 6LXs rated at 150bhp. Manchester’s were rated at 132bhp, presumably with a corresponding reduction in torque, and I thought at the time that that was the standard Fleetline rating. But if the reduction in the O.680’s power was taken care of by simply lowering the governed speed, then I agree that there would be no reduction in torque there.
The idea that the PDR1/2 wasn’t offered with the O.680 option must have come from somewhere, and the Daimler gearbox certainly was strengthened before the CRL6 Fleetline came on the market. Perhaps someone just put two and two together and created a bit of folklore.

Peter Williamson

08/10/15 – 07:13

Talk about being late to the party!
According to “The Leyland Bus Mk2” (D. Jack) page 325, the O.680 engine was “not available in the PDR1/2, owing to torque limitations on the rear axle”. The same page confirms it carried the Lowlander rear axle.

Allan White

09/10/15 – 07:18

Better late than never, Allan. All is resolved, I think.

Peter Williamson

20/10/15 – 09:07

CDU 354B

The attached photo shows another of the batch 354, CDU 354B in an unusual location at the rear of PMT Clough Street depot in Hanley (note the broken down PMT lowbridge Atlantean in the background.)
The reason was that PMT had recently installed a Dawson ‘Cyclone’ bus interior cleaner at Hanley Depot in an attempt to improve and speed up nightly interior cleaning. The unit was a massive vacuum cleaner with a bellows which was pushed out to the bus entrance by pneumatic rams, it was switched on and hey presto all the loose rubbish within the bus was sucked into the cleaner. A man with an air lance entered by the emergency door and agitated the less willing items of rubbish into the air stream. Coventry were interested in the concept and on 25th March 1971 sent up 354 (maybe with the previous days rubbish still on the bus??) to see how it performed. As the vacuum plant was situated immediately before the bus wash, a trip through the wash was necessary hence the photo.

Ian Wild

21/10/15 – 06:37

Brilliant, Ian!

Pete Davies

23/10/15 – 06:28

It was a long time ago Pete and I can’t remember how reliable the machine was. It can’t have been exclusive to PMT, does anyone know of other Operators who had one? I do recall that we had to cut apertures at odd places inside the buses eg at floor level in the offside partition at the top of the staircase. It can’t have been much fun inside the bus in a force 8 gale!! I don’t recall losing any seat cushions…..

Ian Wild

23/10/15 – 16:37

Trent Motor Traction at Meadow Road Derby, and United Automobile Services had them. Whether this was at all Depots I do not know.
Malcolm Hitchin MBE in his book ‘Keep the Wheels Turning’, recounting his 50 years in Trent engineering, mentions, that very early on after having the system installed, that, if they did not open the emergency door, before starting the vacuum, then it was possible that the pressure from the vacuum could suck in the bus windows.

Stephen Howarth

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

12/11/15 – 14:23

Think these units actually had a self changing gear semi automatic box not a Daimatic.
Reason for the purchase of Leylands was that Daimler thinking they had a monopoly put in a price and refused to negotiate even when Leyland put the lower price in. There was much heated debate in the Council Transport Committee meetings and when the order was placed with Leyland there was a lot of aggressive words from Daimler Trade Unions. The follow-on order for Daimlers was placed before the Leylands were delivered.
I made it a task to ride on all the vehicles from both batches and upstairs they had for Coventry 3 single seats behind each other on the nearside.
Willowbrook did not make a good job of the body with lots of water ingress from very early on manifesting itself in brown streaks across the upside dome.
Body vibration was much more pronounced on the Leylands and from both batches I remember being stranded with linkage failures to the engine from the semi gearbox which I presume was pneumatic pipes working loose.
Full buses in rush hour running every 6 minutes dumping a full load in between stops was not a great experience for getting to school on time.
I ended up switching routes to one which had rear loaders just for reliability and avoiding of school detentions

Roger Burdett

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – CWB 346B – 346

Sheffield Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - CWB 346B - 346

Sheffield Corporation
1964
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Neepsend H44/33F

Nice body – pity about the chassis! Neepsend produced a striking looking body (ok, I know – it was an East Lancs design) for the 20 buses delivered in 1964/5 plus a further 20 in 1966. I rather preferred this first batch with the red upholstery and red wheel centres. They also combined sliding windows and rotovents in the top deck. They were regular performers on the cross city 82 service. 348 of this batch had  ducted air saloon heating as a trial, later to become almost universal, as opposed to the underseat heaters of the remainder of the batch. The bus is in Fargate, Sheffield, nowadays pedestrianised but many of the buildings are still there.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

02/03/15 – 07:32

Did Sheffield Corporation specify the PDR1/2 chassis in order to provide more headroom on both decks, in the same manner as the Nottingham Renowns? It’s difficult to tell from the photograph but this vehicle doesn’t look to be low height.

Chris Barker

04/03/15 – 15:45

These were 14ft 3in if memory serves me right. They were designed to fit under a low bridge at Darfield on the 70 to Upton. There were special instructions in the Drivers Handbook about both batches.

Neil Hudson

04/03/15 – 15:45

Manchester Corporation had 132 of the PDR1/2 model. At the time it was thought that this was for reasons of standardisation, in that the gearbox was the same as on the many Fleetlines in the fleet. These vehicles had Metro-Cammell “Orion” bodies to an intermediate height of 14 feet and half an inch. They sounded very different from PDR1/1 Atlanteans, the gearbox whine being very prominent.

Don McKeown

05/03/15 – 07:11

It seems a bit unlikely that Sheffield would have bought 40 A fleet buses to a special reduced height for a B service requiring perhaps two buses. I suspect that it was coincidental that they happened to fit under the bridge on route 70 but maybe a Sheffield expert can confirm this.

Ian Wild

06/03/15 – 06:41

During my time in Sheffield in the 1960s and 70s, there were three routes which required low-height double deckers – service 70 to Upton (a C route) and B routes 6 and 19 to Dinnington. The C fleet had no suitable double deckers but only one bus was needed on service 70 (joint operator Yorkshire Traction normally used saloons). All three routes were served by the B fleet’s lowbridge Regents and later by Bridgemasters from the A fleet, in which fleet there was no requirement for low-height deckers! A lot of mileage balancing must have gone on. I’ve no recollection of the Neepsend Atlanteans being so used and I’m fairly sure a saloon was used on 70 by the time I left the area in 1975.

Geoff Kerr

07/03/15 – 07:14

My understanding of the Manchester PDR1/2 situation is that there was a low(ish) bridge on a service to Partington (222/223) which was run jointly with North Western. When this service first started, MCTD didn’t have any buses to put on it. They didn’t like the idea of being a ghost operator, but neither did they like the idea of buying special buses for one route. So they changed their standard spec for both Atlantean and Fleetline bodies to the intermediate height, which required the use of the PDR1/2 chassis for the Atlanteans. All subsequent double deckers were built to this height until the Mancunians appeared.

Peter Williamson

07/03/15 – 17:14

Peter, am I right in thinking that this arrangement meant the Atlanteans and Fleetlines shared a common drive train.

Phil Blinkhorn

08/03/15 – 06:54

Phil, the PDR1/2 used the Daimler concentric drive gearbox of the Fleetline in conjunction with the dropped centre axle from the Lowlander. Daimler used its own dropped centre rear axle.

Roger Cox

08/03/15 – 16:12

Thanks Roger

Phil Blinkhorn

25/03/15 – 16:24

I think they also operated from Bridge St. on the Shiregreen route, 47 or 48? They were always parked by Firth Park shops.

Andy Fisher

Ribble – Leyland Atlantean – RRN 407 – 1807

RRN 407_2

Ribble Motor Services
1962
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Weymann “Orion” L39/33F

Ribble bought a hundred early Atlanteans with MCW “Orion” bodywork in 1959/60, seventy highbridge and thirty lowbridge. These were followed by a reversion to the Titan model, with ninety five PD3/5’s with Metro-Camell “Orion” fully fronted bodies in 1961/2. These were followed by fourteen lowbridge Atlanteans, including this one, which proved to be the last PDR1/1 to enter the fleet. Subsequently Titans and Lowlanders were bought, followed by fully lowheight PDR1/2 Atlanteans. It was generally thought that Ribble preferred the Titan but used Atlanteans for lowbridge/lowheight vehicles.
The original version of the Atlantean Chassis had a dropped-centre front axle, and a “normal” rear axle. This meant that the lowheight body could be built with “normal” seating at the front, but at the rear a side gangway arrangement was necessary. The last four rows of seats were thus on a raised platform, in four passenger benches, but with the gangway on the nearside – the opposite side from the conventional lowbridge double-decker. This photo was taken in the twilight years of the bus, which is wearing the NBC poppy red livery rather than the traditional cherry red livery used by Ribble for so many years. Despite it’s age it was being one-man-operated on an extremely long journey.
1807 is seen here passing through Troutbeck Bridge on the almost legendary service 555, heading from Keswick to Lancaster. This lengthy route still runs, still operated by double-deckers, passing through the Lake District – surely one of England’s most scenic bus routes.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

05/03/15 – 07:13

Very nice, Don. Thanks for posting. This route used to be the 68 when I first took an interest in buses [in my secondary school days in Lancaster] – I’m not sure when it was renumbered to 555.

Pete Davies

Thanks for posting Don. I know the area fairly well having stayed in Troutbeck Bridge a time or two.
To Pete, If it helps, I have just consulted my Ribble Area No 1 timetable, dated 30th September 1963 and under Table 50 it shows these services :-
Service 68, Keswick to Lancaster
Service 70 Kendal to Lancaster
Service 555 Keswick to Kendal
So 555 was shown in use at that time, be it for only part of the route, with 555 journeys shown separately as either between Ambleside & Keswick or between Kendal and Ambleside, but strangely for the most part they did not connect !

Mike Norris

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – 655 BWB – 225

Sheffield Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - 655 BWB - 225

Sheffield Corporation
1962
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Metro Cammell H44/33F

This bus was one of a batch of nine supplied new to the B fleet as fleet number 1355. This batch were extensively used from new on service 41 to Hackenthorpe where there was a large new housing development. They were the first rear engined double deckers for the B fleet and were the final batch with rear destination displays before reversion to rear route numbers only.
Following the absorption of the B fleet in 1970, the bus was renumbered to 225. Here it is seen at Fulwood terminus of service 88 which replaced the former tram route. Fulwood was the elegant part of the City! The date was 26th August 1973, the bus looks smart and as always the Sheffield livery helped to disguise the box shape of early rear engined deckers. It carries the final pre PTE fleetname introduced I think by General Manager Noel Macdonald. It still has a full set of Leyland wheel embellishers although eleven years old. Note the Sheffield bus stop flag, quite distinctive in the days before the nationally standardised type.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

03/08/15 – 16:06

I always thought the original Atlantean and Fleetline designs from the MCW group had a certain symmetry that was lost with the later moves to graft on curved or vee windscreens and peaked domes which always looked like a bit of a lash up to me. Yes the design was ‘boxy’ but it was simple seemed to work. The PRV/Roe early incarnations though were absolutely dreadful with the top heavy Bridgemaster upper deck characteristics. Of all the body builders on the early rear-engined buses only Alexander really got it right with the Glasgow design.

Philip Halstead

04/08/15 – 06:54

I agree with Philip regarding the style of the early MCW Atlantean/Fleetline bodywork.
I have always thought it to be a rather good, quite attractive design which was most appropriate for the then ground breaking rear engined buses.

David Slater

05/08/15 – 06:20

But are these wheels with their embellishers red- as they should be- or blue, reputed to have been in “celebration” of a rare & brief Conservative takeover of the city council in 1968? Bit of history here.

Joe

wheel

Best I can do I’m afraid.

06/08/15 – 05:49

Both red AND blue would you say? Red centre on a blue wheel?

Joe

06/08/15 – 15:37

I lived at Hackenthorpe when these were introduced. What a revelation they were replacing the AEC batch 190 -198. 1261-1263 + Leylands 159-161. At eve rush hour when full standing by the driver you would marvel at the gear changing (a lollipop in a fag pkt). When new as joint omnibus fleet they did not carry the city’s coat of arms! When did 225 receive it? Must say it wasn’t long before I missed the wonderful exhaust note of the AECs!!!
NB I am collecting photos of any buses on the 41 route in 50s/60s if anyone can help?

David Grant

07/08/15 – 17:06

I preferred the Park Royal body from around the same period.

Andy Fisher

02/09/15 – 07:06

I also lived at Hackenthorpe when 1350-1358 were new.
The upper deck of 1357 was totally destroyed in a fire in the late 60s, while operating on the 41 to Hackenthorpe. It received a new Park Royal body and re-entered service in 1968.

Martyn Else

Devon General – Leyland Atlantean – 901 DTT – DL901

Devon General - Leyland Atlantean - 901 DTT - DL901

Devon General Omnibus & Touring Co Ltd
1960
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Roe H44/31F

The ugly lines of the Park Royal inspired Roe bodies on the early Atlantean chassis are barely disguised by the Devon General livery in this photo taken in Teignmouth on a sunny day in July 1973. I suppose we should be thankful that it hasn’t yet succumbed to the insipid NBC poppy red colour scheme.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

04/01/16 – 06:27

I’ve seen plenty of examples of poorly located bus stops, but this one looks to be an extremely challenging stop to catch a bus from!

petras409

04/01/16 – 06:28


Copyright Unknown

Ian, I think a lot of the problem with the appearance of DL901 arises from the over-zealous use of front facing advertising literature coupled with the opening front lights which really squash up the windows. Sheffield had half a dozen similar Roe-bodied Atlanteans which I personally find quite pleasing to the eye bearing in mind it was early days for mass produced rear engine machines.

John Darwent

04/01/16 – 09:44

I think the stop in question was only for top-loaders, ie, those of “O (seating) (doorway)” layout.

Pete Davies

04/01/16 – 09:45

petras409 makes a fair point about the bus stop, if it is for the road on which 901 is travelling, but I think it could be positioned for buses using the road where the people (possibly aging bus spotters marking off numbers in their Ian Allan fleet book) are sitting. Perhaps a member of this site knows the location in question, and if buses traverted/traverse that section of road.
In today’s more disability conscious world I doubt if that bench would be allowed to be placed in the middle of the footpath.

Stephen Howarth

04/01/16 – 16:43

As suggested, the surroundings are more puzzling than the bus! As John D says, the design of early rear engined decker bodies was very much based on function, as Roe designs generally always were. Peaks, glass fibre mouldings, one piece windscreens and fairings came later. This bus has its traits exaggerated by- possibly- the camera angle and the white roof, plus as noted, the window vents. The interesting bit is the bus stop sign and the bench! Possibly the road was not wide enough for two buses of this width to pass (and had only one pavement?) and perhaps there was a one way system for them with a bus stop opposite the seat… but did people sit with their backs to the road? What was the view that demanded a seat to see it, over a busy, noisy main road? Odd.

Joe

04/01/16 – 16:44

The location is on the outskirts of Teignmouth, and the Atlantean is just descending the “ramp” to Shaldon Bridge, where it would cross the Teign, before heading off along the clifftop run to Maidencombe, St Marychurch and Torquay (present day route 11). The stop certainly relates to the road on the left, which is the main road to Newton Abbot – present day route 2 from Exeter via Exminster, Dawlish, Teignmouth – a journey that takes an hour and three-quarters, every 20 minutes throughout the day.

Stephen Ford

04/01/16 – 16:45

I think that the bus is taking the approach to the T’mouth to Shaldon Bridge and the road on the left is the one to Newton Abbott.
It is feasible that there was at that time a stop on both roads explaining the white sign to the left of the pole but the orange rectangle to the right of the pole doesn’t look like a bus stop sign.
The seat is, as you say, in the middle of the pavement but is facing that way because that is the view across the estuary.

John Lomas

05/01/16 – 06:03

The bus 901 is on the road to Shaldon via a road bridge and en route to Torquay via the coast road. The bus spotters or tourist are looking out over the River Teign from beside the bus stop for the number 2 to Newton Abbot which goes along beside the River, on the top road. A great shot of 901 in our traditional colours.

Iain

05/01/16 – 06:04

Thank you, Stephen and John, for informing us about the location. Has the stop been declared busy enough or exposed enough to warrant a shelter? One with a normal-sized roof must surely try attaching itself to any “unwary” vehicles coming the other way, up the hill. As my shelter supplier used to say, “It needs a fence panel with an ironing board as a roof.”

Pete Davies

05/01/16 – 06:05

I always thought that Devon General’s livery was superb. The Metro-Cammell bodied Atlanteans were far more attractive than these, especially when viewed from the rear.

Don McKeown

05/01/16 – 15:46

Here’s the approximate location on Streetview : https://www.google.co.uk/maps/

Stephen Ford

05/01/16 – 17:07

As seen in Stephen’s Google link, the site of the old bus stop is shown by the concrete post still standing near the seat just a few yards down from the present stop.

John Darwent

06/01/16 – 05:43

Although not too clear, there is also a bench in the same place as before, but facing the road this time, with not so impressive a view as before!

Chris Hebbron

06/01/16 – 05:44

Nice shot, even to the point of the Austin A40 (seen heading away from camera) being in matching colours to the bus. An extraordinary coincidence!

Grahame Arnold

06/01/16 – 16:38

The problem with this body design is that the upper deck windows are relatively shallow, and are also set high relative to the general level of the roof (i.e. the roof is also shallow). This ruins the proportions of the bus as a whole, particularly in the case of full height vehicles, and also has the additional disadvantage that the upper deck windows are too high set for small children to see out. I don’t think the opening front windows really make a difference, but the layout of the colours of the DG livery is not really flattering in this case.
The upper deck structure appears to be the same as those infamous Leyland Titans that Southampton CT purchased in the early 1960s, and it also looks the same as that on the early Weymann/MCW lowheight Atlanteans. The lower vehicles looked more acceptable, because the proportions were better balanced, with equal depth windows on the lower deck.
There may be good practical and functional reasons for having shallower windows on the upper deck, but the outward appearance can be compromised. The MCW Orion suffered in this respect, but at least the upper deck windows were set lower, and the deeper roof improved the overall look, compared to these PRV/Roe vehicles.

Nigel Frampton

07/01/16 – 06:15

Nigel, I have often wondered whether the shallower windows on the upper deck of such vehicles was an attempt by the bodybuilder(s) to standardise the upper deck structure for both lowbridge and highbridge models. Upper deck framing, window glasses, window rubbers, emergency exits and front and rear domes would then be identical regardless of overall height. Also, given that front and rear domes were increasingly being fabricated from GRP around that time, perhaps utilising only one shape for the front and one for the back would have made production easier, and/or reduced costs. The influence of the BET Group on bus design should not be underestimated either, and may well have played a part in some designs having a similar ‘look’, despite being from different bodybuilders. These are just thoughts mind.

Brendan Smith

07/01/16 – 06:18

John D – that’s a superb shot of Sheffield 945, looks as though it was brand new when photographed. Thanks for posting. Nigel, I’d not related the shallower roof of the Roe vs the MCW versions of the bodies on early Atlanteans – that makes the difference.

Ian Wild

08/01/16 – 06:42

I don’t have any records on Devon General’s early Roe bodied Atlanteans, but a shufti on Ebay and Flickr have thrown up interesting anomalies. Amongst the photos of the batch which are subject of this thread, are those of 898 898 DTT, 905 DTT and 901 901 DTT which are shown with the opening front windows on the upper deck and the destination indicator in a mid position between decks. Also shown are pictures of 908 908 DTT and 901 901 DTT (again) but without opening front windows and with the destination indicator moved to a much lower position. The latter two pictures show the buses with the awful NBC red. So, the question is, was there a partial rebuilding programme of this batch?

John Darwent

08/01/16 – 06:44

Brendan, I believe that you are correct. I have certainly seen the suggestion that the PRV/Roe bodies with shallow upper deck windows came about as a result of BET pressure on costs repeated elsewhere. Standardisation obviously brings benefits, and it certainly wasn’t invented by the NBC! The Tilling/BTC/THC group managed it as well, but with a lot more style than these PRV upper decks.
I presume, and I guess that you can confirm this, that there will be more common parts than just the windows themselves, but presumably some elements of the framework under the skin as well? As far as I can tell, the lengths of the windows on an ECW bodied F-series Lodekka, a VRT and an RELL, were the same, but the depths were different. I suppose, even if it was only the glass, there would still be scope for standardisation of window sliders and hoppers, but I can imagine the operators would have been looking for more.
The kings of window size standardisation seem to have been Ulsterbus. The X type body, fitted to Bristol RELL and Leyland Leopard chassis made extensive use of a standard plain glass, but the last side window was a different shape. The successor body (N type) went even further, using only that standard size, including the window in the rear panel. At around the same time, Ulsterbus were buying several secondhand Bristol REs, and they generally stuck to ECW bodies to ensure standardisation. I recall a comment from the management of the company, during a visit there around 1985, saying that they had also bought one (or possibly more) Bristol RESL-8s from Ribble, and they were most disappointed to find that the windows were a different length!

Nigel Frampton

08/01/16 – 10:49

John D,
The repositioning of the destination boxes on Devon General Atlanteans was the result of One Manning during the 1970s. They had all been delivered with conductor operation in mind, so the destination displays could be changed upstairs, in front of the front seats. Originally, they were nice and clear, with two lines of destination (ultimate and via points), as shown in the picture above.
But, as part of the conversion to OMO, the blind boxes were masked down to a single ultimate display and lowered, so that they could be wound from the diver’s seat.
This gave the front view a very unbalanced aspect and particularly disfigured the lovely Sea Dog convertible Atlanteans, in their cream and maroon reversed livery.
This OMO conversion didn’t affect the upper deck windows, as most of the Atlanteans continued to have opening front windows after the conversion. The pictures you have seen with plain glass may be the result of upper deck repairs following damage.
Western National also bought a large batch of MCW Atlanteans from Maidstone & District and similarly ‘uglyfied’ them too, with lower blind boxes.

Petras409

08/01/16 – 16:59

Petras409. Many thanks for the interesting explanation regarding the changed appearance of some of the batch.

John Darwent