WMPTE/ex-Walsall Corporation 1960 Dennis Loline II YF10 Willowbrook H44/30F
On 1st October 1969 the Corporation bus fleets of Birmingham, West Bromwich, Walsall and Wolverhampton were absorbed into the newly formed West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive. Due largely to the famously eclectic tastes of its innovative and renowned former General Manager, Mr. R. Edgley Cox, members of the Walsall fleet were varied and interesting, if not (in my opinion) always very attractive. This photo of a former Walsall bus was taken in late 1970 on an enthusiasts’ visit. It shows a Dennis Loline II with Willowbrook H44/30F body, new in 1960.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
09/03/14 – 16:27
Walsall buses are intriguing. Always seems to be great attention to detail. I remember being struck by them when visiting for a job in the 60s. I assume that the 3 indentations on the front upper corner are accidental, but what is the cowl or cover above the bonnet/radiator on the nearside front and the access flap around the corner on the nearside? Did Mr Cave Brown Cave have a competitor?
Joe
17/03/14 – 07:42
Dennis used completely different chassis designations for the Loline I and II in comparison with the later Loline III. Although the sales literature originally included the Dennis 8 litre 120 bhp engine as an option, in practice no Lolines were built with this power plant. Corrections and additions to the notes below would be welcome. Y1 This was used for all Loline I models, 30ft long with rear entrances and conventionally sprung rear axles. The two for Leigh were powered by Gardner 6LX engines, but all others had the 6LW engine. The biggest batch went to Aldershot and District who specified the five speed gearbox, which was the standard fitment. Those for Leigh, Lancashire United and Middlesborough had four speed gearboxes. YF1 All Loline IIs were 30ft long except where shown otherwise. The ‘F’ indicated front entrance. Designation YF1 was applied to the Walsall example 600 DDH that was effectively the Loline II prototype. It had a Gardner 6LW engine, a Dennis (five speed?) constant mesh gearbox and a conventionally sprung rear axle. YF2 The production Walsall model, similar in specification to the prototype, but this, and all subsequent Loline IIs, had air suspension for the rear axle. YF3 North Western batch with Leyland O600 engine and Dennis (five speed?) gearbox. YF4 As YF3, but with de-rated Gardner 6LX engine (some sources suggest that the engine was the 6LW, but Dennis expert Robin Hannay confirms the 6LX). YF5 Version for Luton, 27ft 8ins long with Leyland O600 engine and Dennis four speed gearbox. YF6 The Middlesborough batch, Gardner 6LW engine and four speed gearbox. YF7 These City of Oxford buses were 27ft 8ins long and were powered by AEC AV 470 engines through five speed gearboxes. YF8 Not used. Was it a cancelled order, perhaps? YF9 This emerged as the Loline III demonstrator, EPG 179B, with the new chassis designation L3AF1E1. Powered by a Gardner 6LX engine through a four speed semi automatic SCG gearbox, it was originally intended for the China Motor Bus Company, but it has been said that it never got there for reasons that are still obscure. YF10 The final Walsall machine, shown in John’s picture above, was given this designation, though the differences from the earlier batch are unclear. YF11 This is the very well known, unique, lowbridge Barton machine, equipped with a Leyland O600 engine and a five speed gearbox. In later life it suffered the supreme indignity of being fitted with an AEC radiator grille of the Regent Mk V variety. I believe (and fervently hope) that this injustice has since been righted in preservation. The first two production Loline III buses went to Leigh Corporation, and, because these were of rear entrance layout, Dennis rather surprisingly gave them the chassis designation Y2 consistent with the early Y1 Mark I series. All other Loline IIIs had front entrances and were given L3 type chassis codes.
Barton Transport 1961 Dennis Loline II Northern Counties FL37/31F
861 HAL is the famous ‘limbo dancing’ Dennis Loline II from the Barton fleet. It has an ultra lowbridge Northern Counties FL68F body and we see it at the Netley rally on 13 July 1986. How low can you go? Well, King Alfred’s WCG 104, Tiger Cub, is alongside – compare heights!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
17/11/16 – 07:08
Where does this Loline live now? A long-standing ambition is just to see it: riding on it would be the cherry on top.
Ian Thompson
17/11/16 – 07:09
So much has been written about 861 that I apologise if I’m repeating what’s gone before but for those who may not know, this ultra low Loline was purchased specially by Bartons to pass under an ultra low railway bridge at Sawley Junction station (now renamed Long Eaton) This it did, just, but Bartons proved it could be done. However, the Traffic Commissioners were having none of it and refused to licence the intended route for double deck operation. This left the company with a one-off vehicle with no real purpose but all was not lost for 861 because it became regularly employed on the X42 Nottingham – Derby express service where it put in some astonishing performances, up to 70 mph on the A52 road between the two cities. For most of it’s life it had a Leyland O.600 engine and also a regular driver too, a chap who was always immaculate in Barton’s brown uniform complete with striped shirt and bow tie, I never knew his name but he was known to everyone as ‘Flash Harry’ and a very competent driver he was. The X42 was jointly operated with Trent but those who knew and wanted an exhilarating ride chose Barton!
Chris Barker
17/11/16 – 10:36
Thanks, Chris and Ian. The PSVC listing for 2015 says 861 is part of the Barton collection, but I don’t know the location. A Wiki search gives me all sorts of museums, rare breeds farms and so on, but not what I’m actually seeking!
Pete Davies
17/11/16 – 10:37
This vehicle has become legendary, but I have never actually seen it. I don’t know if those alleged speeds are verifiable – the bus must have been very highly geared to get to 70 mph (I’ve got quite near to that in a 6LXCT powered Olympian). Nevertheless, I can vouch for the supreme stability of the Loline at high speeds, so 861 would have been entirely safe when motoring fast, especially so with such a low built body.
Roger Cox
17/11/16 – 10:56
Ian 861 currently resides in its old depot at Chilwell, along with the other members of the Barton Collection. The premises are usually open to the public during the Heritage Weekend in September each year. Well worth a visit.
Bob Gell
17/11/16 – 12:31
It appeared as part of the Barton display at Showbus this year. I believe the Chilwell site has approval for redevelopment, but don’t know how that will affect the Barton collection.
Ian Comley
17/11/16 – 14:40
As presented in the Barton line-up at Showbus 2016.
Les Dickinson
18/11/16 – 07:12
Given that the Loline was offered with a variety of engines, in this case the Leyland 0.600 being fitted, I’ve often wondered how 861 achieved such a low windscreen line together with what appears to be minimal engine intrusion beside the driver. It would seem to be much lower than, say, a Lowlander bonnet line or any other Lolines for that matter. For the technically minded, would the engine have been modified at all, or perhaps a shallower radiator fitted?
Chris Barker
18/11/16 – 07:17
Here is a link to my Flickr site where I have a set of 20 photos of Barton vehicles at Showbus 2016. Barton at Showbus 2016
Les Dickinson
19/11/16 – 13:38
Thanks for the info, gentlemen. I hadn’t realised that 861 was on the road, so I particularly regret not going to September’s Showbus—especially with all the other fascinating Barton vehicles there. To complement the ingenuity of the mechanical design and seating layout, everything about 861 looks well integrated: the very opposite of the afterthought-plastered-onto-afterthought appearance of some 1960s deckers.
Ian Thompson
20/11/16 – 05:49
Chris, like you, I am convinced that the radiator must have been repositioned or modified to achieve that low windscreen level, and the same is surely true also in respect of the similar bodies on the Barton Regent Vs of the type shown in this link:- www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/
Roger Cox
20/11/16 – 08:20
I take it, Roger, that the Regents weren’t ‘limbo dancers’ in the same was as the Loline – just broadly similar at first glance.
Pete Davies
21/11/16 – 07:50
If you compare the photos of other Loline 2s on this site, you can see that the radiator grille on 861 HAL is much lower, relative to the front wheels, than on other examples of the model.
Nigel Frampton
21/11/16 – 07:51
The clear recognition point between the Loline and the similar-looking Regents is the distance between the top of the wheelarch and the base of the windscreen and side window line. But both are classic versions of a pleasing design that hasn’t been bettered by the more recent use of economical flat glass for windscreens. The wrap-around look gave a real sense of style, in my opinion. And, of course, much better visibility than certain modern buses with heavy non-glazed corner panels.
Peter Murnaghan
21/11/16 – 10:33
When 861 and Regents 850-4 were delivered they were fitted with the Cave Brown Cave heating system, so presumably they didn’t have a radiator in the conventional position. After only a few years, the CBC grilles disappeared, but it begs the question as to where the radiator is now. I remember one journey on 861 on the X42 with a new driver; I think he must have been used to the Regent Vs (four speed gearbox) as he never found fifth gear on the Loline for the whole journey!
Bob Gell
22/11/16 – 12:27
Fifth gear on the Loline I and II was engaged by pushing the stick forward from fourth into neutral, and then over to the right and back again in a ‘U’ movement. If the driver hadn’t been shown, he would probably never have found it. Changing back down from overdrive to fourth needed practice, too, to avoid engaging second gear by mistake. The trick was to move the stick forward into neutral and let it go, so that the detent spring could centre it properly, and then just pull it straight back into fourth.
Roger Cox
22/11/16 – 13:45
The curved front windows look natural on this bus and not out of place as they definitely do on the later Southdown Queen Mary Titans.
David Wragg
22/11/16 – 16:14
This would seem to be the same procedure as I used to observe drivers doing in the Dennis Lances, Roger, if I’m not mistaken, as I travelled from/to Woking Station and St. Peter’s Hospital, Ottershaw.
Chris Hebbron
22/11/16 – 16:15
Roger Thanks for the explanation of finding fifth gear (and getting out of it again!); is this similar to the 5 speed gearbox fitted to Bristol MWs?
Bob Gell
23/11/16 – 07:28
Whilst 850-4 and 861 had Cave-Browne-Cave equipment when new 957-62 did not and the radiators of tin-front buses were generally a lot smaller than the 1940s -style exposed items. I recall that unlike some Northern Counties full front bodies the regents did not use the manufacturer’s bonnet pressings. Perhaps the owner of one of the preserved examples could comment further.
Stephen Allcroft
23/11/16 – 07:29
In answer to Chris H, the Dennis ‘O’ type gearbox fitted to the Lancet, Lance and Lancet UF (though the few LU4 late examples had the Meadows gearbox) worked the ‘wrong way round’ from right to left, and was essentially a four speed sliding mesh (i.e. true ‘crash’) unit with a preselective overdrive on the end of it. To engage fifth the gear stick had to be pushed from the fourth position over to the left and forward. Unlike me, OBP contributor Ian Thompson has driven Dennis machines with this unique box, so he is our ‘in house’ expert here. The Bristol box, Bob, as fitted to the LS and MW, was a synchromesh unit working conventionally upwards from left to right, and I do have experience of it. Fifth gear was engaged from the fourth position by moving it to the right and forward. It was thus impossible to engage/disengage fifth except though fourth, which meant much labouring of the stick to get going again if one was baulked in overdrive. The Lodekka had the same gear positions, but in that case the gearbox was a constant mesh affair, making the extrication process from overdrive rather more difficult. Generally speaking, Lodekka drivers seemed very reluctant to use fifth in service unless a clear stretch of open road beckoned. By contrast, all versions of the Loline (the Loline III had a gear selector layout similar to the Reliance) allowed immediate access to neutral and the other gears from the fifth gear slot, and fifth was treated as the normal top gear. This feature alone meant that the Loline was a more sprightly machine on the road than the Lodekka.
Thx, Roger, for explaining much more about these gearboxes and that the ‘O’ was different from the Loline. You can quite see that drivers put on these vehicles without any advice, would have difficulty finding overdrive, or, if inexperienced, preferred the simplicity of avoiding it!
Chris Hebbron
25/11/16 – 10:37
One endearing thing about Dennis is that they don’t sheepishly follow the crowd. As Roger’s link to Ted Gamblin’s piece makes clear, changing into and out of the Maybach-designed overdrive on the Dennis “O”-type box is simplicity itself, whereas the other gears need rather precise timing. With the strange two-shaft box of the Loline I and II, on the other hand, you can hardly go wrong with any upward or downward changes, EXCEPT for the change down from fifth into fourth, which needs care not only in locating fourth properly in the gate, as Roger points out, but also in engine-speed matching. Having to go through first to engage and disengage reverse can also take you by surprise! I may be over-generalising here, since the only Loline I I’ve ever driven is ex-A&D 357, currently out of action with gearbox problems. It’s interesting that despite (or thanks to?) Dennis’s history of experimental and sometimes eccentric design, and their near-disappearance from the PSV market on several occasions, the company in its present form continues to thrive. Good that they escaped Leyland’s clutches!
Ian Thompson
29/01/17 – 08:43
With BartoN Transport Ltd family and employees we had somewhat different names for the vehicles than what the spotters and enthusiasts call them nowadays. For example the full fronted AEC regents were known as Derby Deckers nothing else, all the ex Londons were London Deckers the 30 foot AEC 470 saloon were known as Reliance (which they were) but the 590s were known as 36 footers. Any thing with a PD1 or PD2 engine was known as just that, we never used Tiger or Titan, or what the chassis originally was. A Vuemaster was that and only that regardless of what it was made from, body names like Vista and Vega were never used. The moggy pickup trucks were vans, the AECs with 3 seats one side and two the other were Jumbos.
Bill Redfern
25/02/17 – 16:30
The driver of 861 on the x42 Derby/Nottm express was Harry Bell or ding dong as we used to call him. His opposite was Ken Gardener also very smart with a dicky bow. I recall this very well as I used to drive 861 on a Saturday which was their day off.
Chris Coleman
05/12/17 – 14:25
I drove 861 the Loline on Saturdays overtime I was out the garage, worked on it a lot and went out to it on breakdowns, not everyone’s cup of tea. On Saturdays Red Michael the Russian conductor would sit at the back looking for police cars and I could do 70mph if not more he managed to get a drink each end Notts and Derby it was on the non stop Derby express, we were never late.
Bill Redfern
06/12/17 – 08:03
If 861 did 70mph then fully laden it must have been very sluggish as the gearing must have been high.
Roger Burdett
06/12/17 – 09:20
Quite so Roger, the engine would be seriously over revving to do 70mph, so if Bill saw this speed on the clock either it was over reading or it was in kilometres per hour (44 mph).
John Wakefield
07/12/17 – 08:48
Why would Dennis calibrate speeds in kph? I think Bill would know his 44’s from his 70’s! Some Barton buses used to make a lovely chuffing noise when “cruising” which I always used to think was their valves happily bouncing?
Joe
26/10/18 – 16:09
Having ridden in 861 during the 90’s. including a London to Brighton trip, out of Chilwell depot. It was a fast motor. The only problem was the steering judder. It meant we had to change drivers ever hour My dad Bill Mann was one of the team that saved it and helped bring it back to life. I think Bill Redfern might have been driving the bull that winched us up the pit at the depot.
Alistair Mann
02/12/20 – 06:37
In the Auto Review book 165 Bus & Coach Album 1 there’s a picture of 861 and it’s definitely 861 with a Regent V grille, not the Loline grille shown on the pictures above. It’s a shot of it in preservation. When was the grille changed and why?
Glenn Jones
03/12/20 – 06:36
Glenn, Bartons had a very competent fibreglass shop in their Chilwell works and they produced fibreglass replicas of the Regent V style grille, these were fitted when the originals had been accident damaged and not only to AECs, at least one of their full front PS1/B rebuilds had a pseudo AEC grille fitted and in the triangle where AEC would have been, they had carefully applied the name LEYLAND across the centre. Such attention to minor details like that were typical and always pleasing to see.
Middlesbrough Corporation 1958 Dennis Loline 1 Northern Counties H36/31RD
Photo taken on a trip to the Transporter bridge which I walked across the top of I presume it is still there or did they really sell it to the Red Indians. This bus is actually a preservation vehicle loads of information here. I seem to remember at the time a rumour that the Loline was actually a Bristol Lodekka built by Dennis not sure how true it was, if any body knows leave a comment.
My Group now own and have preserved this Dennis Loline Mk1. The Loline was in fact a licence built Bristol Lodekka, they of course could only be sold to state owned undertakings and Dennis wanted a bus to rejuvenate their sales in the Municipal market. Northern Counties built a one off body for this bus which was exhibited at Earls Court Commercial Vehicle Show in October 1958 before entering service with Middlesbrough Corporation on 5th November 1958. In the photo above it is seen at Middlesbrough Corporations Parliament Road Depot towards the end of its life, when, because it was a backloader, and all the rest of the fleet were front loaders it only saw light service being used for transporting Councillors from the Councils planning committee on site visits etc. We rebuilt the bus between 1994 and 1998 and took it to Showbus at Duxford for its 40th anniversary where it won the class for “best preserved Dennis”. It is now used extensively for running days and rallies, in fact it has now done over 120 events in the past ten years without any major trouble.
David Hunter
I rode on this magnificent vehicle at a Heart of the Pennines Rally back in the 1990s and was highly impressed by its performance on the hills around Halifax. Only Tony Blackman’s souped-up Regent III did better. Best wishes to those who preserve the Loline. Think you’re not quite right in describing the body as unique, though, Lancashire United had two very similar Loline Is. Sadly neither survived into preservation.
Neville Mercer
23/03/11 – 06:58
Barton’s Dennis Loline 111 861 XAL flt no 861 was the lowest British built decker at only 12’6″ by NCME and was shown at the 1960 Commercial Motor Show.
Roger Broughton
My fault KC
23/03/11 – 18:35
Further to Roger and Nevilles posts There are shots of the Barton Loline and one of the LUT ones on www.sct61.org.uk. Barton vehicle has been in preservation for many years
Chris Hough
06/12/14 – 07:07
You are correct about ‘ Boro buses route numbers being letters. There were exceptions though, services from the Transporter Bridge were M1 & M2 which had same route for much of the way, splitting on Acklam Road although I cant remember the exact destinations, they were not far from the parting of the route. The other exceptions were the two routes,jointly operated by Stokton corp & M’bro corp Stokton used route numbers. To save face the route along Newport Rd was the O/0 the one via Acklam Rd was the 11/II. Hope this may be of of interest to you.
David Onions
06/12/14 – 08:51
I’ve always considered this bus in the “Borough” livery to be one of the most handsome and well proportioned vehicles I’ve had the pleasure to admire in a long long lifetime of enthusiasm.
Chris Youhill
16/04/15 – 06:43
Read somewhere that the Halifax Lolines were uniquely fitted with Leyland 600 engines. The vast majority were LX Gardner, though Oxford specified AV470’s in their Mk II chassis.
Paul Burgess
16/04/15 – 16:01
No, Paul, the Halifax Lolines had Gardner 6LX engines and five speed semi auto gearboxes.
Roger Cox
16/04/15 – 16:02
I can assure you Paul that the Halifax Lolines were fitted with the Gardner 6LX.
John Stringer
17/04/15 – 06:45
North Western took a batch of 15 Loline IIs in 1960, twelve of which had Leyland O.600 engines, the other three had Gardner 6LX.
Ian Wild
17/04/15 – 06:46
North Western had the Leyland O.600 engined Lolines.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/04/15 – 06:47
Do we know how much the Mk II chassis differed from the Mk I?
Chris Hebbron
17/04/15 – 09:28
The Loline Mk I was the original version with a rear entrance and a conventionally sprung rear axle. The Mk II had a forward entrance and air suspension for the rear axle, and it came on the scene in 1958, before the forward entrance versions of the Bristol Lodekka made their appearances.
Roger Cox
19/04/15 – 07:37
Luton also had two Lolines with Leyland O.600 engines. (Information from “British Double Deckers since 1942”, A A Townsin, 1965, four shillings and sixpence and still very useful!).
Peter Williamson
20/04/15 – 07:12
Thx, Roger.
Chris Hebbron
12/12/15 – 07:51
Does anyone have a list of the corporation bus destinations/routes by letter? I used to live in Grove Hill, then Beechwood, so the C , D , Q and R were my routes. I was always fascinated about where all the others went. Especially the S and a very mysterious Belasis!!
Terry Begley
12/12/15 – 13:03
The 500 Group who own/preserve the Middlesbrough Loline will I am sure will be able to help you Terry. Their Facebook group page is here https://m.facebook.com/500group/
Stephen Howarth
02/05/16 – 13:54
I’ve uploaded a ton of reference images I’d taken as part of my uni project to recreate a 3D model of this classic bus to feature in an animation. When working on a 3D animation it is vital to gather as much high quality reference material as possible in order to study the subject. I was lucky enough to arrange a private visit of this bus with David (Group 500) who was kind enough to let me take lots of photos in order to capture as much detail as possible for my research. Please feel free to check out some of these photos in my Flickr album www.flickr.com/gp/johnbriggs
Johnny
23/10/16 – 05:34
The M bus destinations referred to above in Middlesbrough were Lodore Grove and Levick Crescent. These were displayed as Lodore or Levick on the destination blind. The routes diverged on Acklam Road travelling south where it reached the eastern end of Levick Crescent. One version then travelled along the Crescent and terminated at the junction with Mandale Road, the other continued along Acklam Road until it reached Lodore Grove, slightly further south. Both versions were simply M, distinguished by the destination.
John Butler
24/10/16 – 07:15
Interesting photos, Johnny. I was intrigued by the longditudinal rear seats dividing into two sections with different levels, something I’ve never seen before. If you put the animation online, let us know where we can find it, will you?
United Services 1958 Dennis Loline MkI 6LW East Lancs. H37/31RD
One of a batch of 34 Lolines delivered to Aldershot & District in 1958 numbered 336-369 (SOU 445-477), SOU 473 was withdrawn by them in 1969. It was then bought by W. R. & P. Bingley of Kinsley, who along with Cooper’s of South Elmsall and Everett’s of South Kirkby traded under the name ‘United Services’. It is pictured here resting at Bingley’s Upton depot in April 1973.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
13/02/13 – 04:47
Here is a photograph of this bus when in service with its original owner, Aldershot and District. It is seen in Farnham Road bus station, Guildford in 1961. The Aldershot fleet was generally impeccably turned out, so that the tree damage to the front dome is surprising. The Loline I was a close copy of the Bristol LD Lodekka, but axles, clutch and gearbox were all of Dennis design. Unlike the Lodekka, the Loline always had a full air braking system. These Lolines were thoroughbreds to drive, better in every respect, in my estimation, to the Leyland PD2 and PD3, and the AEC Regent V machines that I had encountered at Halifax. Though equipped with the modestly powerful Gardner 6LW, which A&D rated at the full manufacturer’s setting, they were good performers, and, with a top speed touching 50 mph, quite fast for the time (1958) when they were introduced (and when the legal maximum speed for a PSV was 30 mph). The high quality East Lancs bodywork completed the specification of a supremely capable and reliable bus.
Roger Cox
13/02/13 – 04:50
Just between duties or withdrawn? Certainly not the pristine condition one normally associated with her original owner!
Pete Davies
13/02/13 – 14:43
I suppose that replacing a dented panel or wing to maintain standards of presentation was one thing, but straightening out a roof dome once battered by trees would be rather a big job – time consuming and therefore expensive, and the chances were that once done there was a distinct likely hood of it returning again with the same problem soon after.
John Stringer
15/02/13 – 12:06
Good to see these pictures of a superbly well-proportioned bus with, as Roger points out, first-rate innards to match. And if the 6LW was modestly-powered on paper, 112GHP (Gardner horsepower) was worth 125 of anyone else’s. Two of this batch fortunately survive: SOU 465, a regular attender at events, and SOU 456, still under restoration. I prefer the Loline I radiator-grille shape to the later square-with-rounded-corners design. I’ve got a Loline maintenance manual with sectional drawings of a bewildering variety of alternative gearboxes. Apparently they even offered a six-speed version, which I’m sure was never fitted to a production bus. I’ll post them here soon.
Ian Thompson
15/02/13 – 17:07
Ian, your extensive knowledge of, and fellow enthusiasm for Dennis machinery is very welcome on this site. I certainly never knew that a six speed option was available for the Loline. That would have given a 6LX powered bus an extraordinary performance. The generally accepted view is that the Loline was little more than a licence built Lodekka, but this is an over simplification, particularly in the case of the Loline III. I think I am right in believing that even the Loline I had a gearbox (the ‘V’ type?) that lowered the transmission line without the need for transfer gears as fitted to the Lodekka. The Loline transmission would have thus been more positive and efficient than the Bristol equivalent. The pre Hestair Dennis company had a high level of engineering expertise, but its commercial policies were very indecisive and often misguided. The firm nearly fell victim to a takeover by Seddon before Hestair became interested. Had that happened, or had Leyland made a move to gobble up the Guildford manufacturer, the outcome would surely have been oblivion. ADL may be a different animal from the Dennis of fond memory, and, alas, the superb fire engine business is no more, but it is the only significant bus chassis manufacturer now left in the UK.
Roger Cox
16/02/13 – 07:16
I think SOU 473 was bought by Everett’s in spring 1969, and later passed to Bingleys when Everett’s ceased to operate. I have no record of the takeover date or SOU’s withdrawal date, if anyone knows, please tell me! This was a superb bus to travel in, very speedy and much more spacious than any previous United Services vehicle. The rear door was air-powered, sliding forward into a pocket – when opened whilst decelerating for a stop, it crashed heavily onto the front of the pocket, no chance of dozing off despite the comfortable seats.
Roger Townend
16/02/13 – 07:17
I have a Loline sales brochure from about 1960 and this shows that the standard gearbox offering was the 5 speed V type. Interestingly a 4 speed SCG epicyclic was also offered but I have no knowledge of it ever being fitted. In 1967 Halifax took 5 Lolines with 6LX engines and a five speed overdrive epicyclic gearbox. The GM at the time, Geoffrey Hilditch, described them as having “a useful turn of speed”. I believe he meant that it went like the wind!
Paragon
16/02/13 – 10:15
Were these Halifax Lolines not the same ones which they sold to West Riding when they were only two to three years old.
They must have run out of wind rather quickly.
Andrew Beever
16/02/13 – 13:38
Andrew, I recall reading some years ago that the Halifax batch were bought for a specific purpose, namely a specialised route needing vehicles of this specification for the best performance. This, I believe, they did well. However, once the PTE came into existence, my memory is that the route or the perceived needs changed, and the batch ended up on local routes. They weren’t suited to this role at all! This meant that their early sale to West Riding was convenient for both PTE and W. Riding. I am only going on memories of what I have read, not local experience, but others may have more specific details. In the early days of Classic Bus magazine, there was a three-bus test drive including an AEC Renown (King Alfred), a Bristol Lodekka(Hants & Dorset) and a Dennis Loline (Aldershot & District. The drivers were expecting Lodekka or Renown to win out, but the Loline beat the others into the corner!
Michael Hampton
16/02/13 – 14:42
In 1962, on two occasions, I took a bus from Southsea to Milford (Surrey). I can’t recall the Southdown vehicle to/from Petersfield, but do recall the A&D Lolines north of Petersfield on the challenging A3 route. They were comfortable, quiet and performed very well.
Chris Hebbron
16/02/13 – 17:00
Remember that West Riding were in a pretty bad way with their Wulfrunians and acquired a lot of second hand Lodekkas to keep them going…so a few Lolines added a certain standardisation. …. the other story (SCT61) is that the Lolines were for the Calder Valley and when Tod came on board, even they couldn’t get in the newly integrated garage.
Joe
16/02/13 – 18:10
By their very nature, the Halifax Lolines were best suited to lengthy, high speed runs, which were not characteristic features of the local Halifax topography. Whilst they were suitable for the inter urban ‘B’ services such as the 43 to Huddersfield or the 48/49 Brighouse – Hebden Bridge, these busy routes were well within the capabilities of the PD2s, PD3s, Regent Vs and Fleetlines in the fleet. The Lolines migrated to the Meredith and Drew contracts where their remarkable road performance (GGH admits to these machines being capable of 55 mph plus) proved entirely suitable to the task, but, of necessity, a conductor had to be carried on what was essentially a coach service. When West Riding, desperate for Wulfrunian replacement stock, made an enticing offer, they were sold on in 1970. However, Geoff Hilditch, in his book “Steel Wheels and Rubber Tyres” (Vol 2) states that “this would not have happened had we then known of the Millwood (i.e,Todmorden) garage problem that would face us in 1971 They would have been ideal for the Halifax – Todmorden – Burnley service.” There was nothing wrong with the buses. They were just unsuited to much of the tortuous route system that was indigenous to the Halifax area.
Roger Cox
17/02/13 – 07:27
…..and, of course, the North Western Lolines – along with the Renowns – were for long distance routes rather than urban stop/start.
David Oldfield
17/02/13 – 07:28
A “cartoon-style” line-drawing of one of the Halifax Lolines was used as the basis for a recruitment poster during the early 1970s: “I’m blue because I have no driver” – featuring blue Loline with weeping eyes/headlights. This was painted onto a blank window panel in Crossfield Bus Station near the 76 (Bradford v Queensbury) stand. I remember, as my 6/7 year-old self, thinking why didn’t they picture a Regent/Titan/Fleetline instead of a “made-up” double-decker – of course by then (post Hebble-Halifax JOC merger) the Lolines had moved on, and I’d never noticed/come across them. But what made the artist/HPT choose one of their most un-typical buses? Other similar advertisements included one for the 68/X68 to Sheffield featuring one of the Seddon Pennine RU DPs, and one for private hire featuring – I think! – one of the ex-Timpsons Park Royal Royalist Reliances . . . I said “I think”, perhaps it was just a Panorama Elite.
Philip Rushworth
17/02/13 – 07:29
Ian mentions above that one of the two surviving Aldershot and District Loline I machines is SOU 465. Here is a picture of this bus taken on 25 June 1967 in Petersfield. It is operating the lengthy 24 route to Guildford on which Chris would have travelled to reach Milford. I, too frequently sampled this route and its Loline Mk.Is in the days before I acquired a PSV Licence. Later, as driver with A&D at Aldershot circa 1966-68, I did drive on the parallel route 6 between Aldershot and Petersfield (Steep village), though Loline IIIs had taken over by that time. Interestingly, the only joint operation into Aldershot was Route 12 to Reading, which was shared with Thames Valley. When an Lodekka suffered a defect or failure at the Hampshire end of the service, it was replaced by a Loline, and very often the Thames Valley driver was reluctant to hand it back again later in return for the repaired Lodekka. I genuinely cannot recall any instances of a Loline failing at the Reading end of the route though I expect this must have happened now and again. Aldershot & District had much higher engineering standards than Thames Valley.
Roger Cox
17/02/13 – 08:50
That’s a lovely photo which brings back lots of memories, Roger. I recognise the place well. Thx. It was a long route – the better part of 30 miles in total, hilly and twisting in places, all taken with panache. I worked in Guildford and had a soft spot for the old ‘All Aboard & Risk it’, as it was nicknamed! And an Aunt-in-Law was once a clippie with them during the war, around Woking.
Chris Hebbron
17/02/13 – 08:51
I think you may be right about engineering standards, Roger.
David Oldfield
17/02/13 – 12:23
Your mention of “I’m blue because I have no driver”,Phlip, reminded me of a quiz a couple of years ago on a blog I follow. I’ve found it here. I did badly! See HERE: //tinyurl.com/c97j9kf
Chris Hebbron
18/02/13 – 08:26
Roger’s comments about engineering standards at Thames Valley remind me of the set of pictures I have of a whole variety of other operators’ vehicles which had to be drafted into Reading to help out because of vehicles off the road, firstly in May and September 1973 (London Country RTs and some Royal Blue MWs) and then again in April 1974 and August/September 1974, when a variety of buses came from Ensign Bus, (ex Portsmouth, Swindon, S&M of Hadleigh, LT) together with a couple of Reliances and a couple of Lolines from Reading Transport. It appears that the merger with A&D didn’t result in a migration of engineering standards to Reading!
Alan Murray-Rust
18/02/13 – 10:57
It may have been coincidence, or simply made the situation worse: it was that period in the early seventies which was also the period of (British) Leyland’s worst “hour” – not only take it or leave it but you can’t get it (spares) and we won’t make/supply it (Bristol RE). Thames Valley were not the only operator in that position. Leyland disease – oh I’d forgotten late deliveries as well – certainly affected Sheffield/SYPTE and others as well.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
20/02/13 – 05:57
Those six Halifax Lolines may have contributed to Dennis’ survival as a manufacturer today (even if in a different form). Mr GGH (as he is referred to above) was impressed by his contacts with Dennis, and on moving to Leicester a few years later, encouraged Dennis to develop the Dominator double-decker as an antidote to the “leylandisation” of the British bus manufacturing industry. Dennis had only dabbled in the bus market from c. 1950 until then, but from the mid/late 1970s developed new ranges to suit the new challenges. And the rest, as they say, is history. I guess “Mr GGH” was embarking on a wider plan than he realised, thus making it still possible to buy a British-made bus today.
Michael Hampton
20/02/13 – 09:35
In 1963 the magazine Commercial Motor published the results of a road test of 447, an Aldershot and District Mk3 Loline. It produced the best fuel consumption figures of any double decker tested by the magazine since the Second World War. Fully laden with the equivalent of 68 passengers the testers obtained 12.75 mpg at two stops per mile and 9.25 mpg at six stops per mile. The fleet average for A&D Lolines at that time was 13.5 mpg. One of the testers was the well known transport author Alan Townsin and he describes travelling on an undulating stretch of the A3 at an average speed of 32.4 mph and obtaining 15.7 mpg. He gives the top speed at about 47mph. He describes all controls as “very satisfying” and had that “indefinable feel of a thoroughbred vehicle” Praise indeed.
I think it is Paragon
21/02/13 – 06:22
I drove Loline Is and IIIs from Aldershot Depot in 1966-68, after which I returned to the administrative side of the bus industry. Without doubt, the Loline was a superb bus, predictable, stable and refined. The A&D Loline III was rather livelier than the Mark I by virtue of the lighter bodywork by Alexander or Weymann, and its Dennis gearbox had a modified gate that emulated the Reliance pattern, making the engagement of overdrive rather simpler. Those fuel economy figures are way beyond the reach of “modern” buses, and, I suspect, the reliability statistics for today’s machinery are equally inferior. Progress? What progress?
East Kent Road Car Co. Ltd. 1954 – 1957 Dennis Lancet UF – Guy Arab IV Duple C41C – Park Royal H33/28RD
East Kent’s first foray into underfloor engined vehicles occurred in 1951 when six Leyland Royal Tigers with ornate but rather uncertainly styled Park Royal coach bodies arrived in 1951. In 1953 came two more Royal Tigers, this time with well proportioned Duple C32C Ambassador bodies. Thirty more similar Duple coach bodies, the first six being C32C, the rest C41C, arrived in the following year, but this time mounted on Dennis Lancet UF LU2 chassis, East Kent having been an enthusiastic customer for the front engined Lancet in pre and early post war years. These coaches were registered HJG3 to 32 – East Kent did not use fleet numbers, but duplication of the number element of the registrations was always avoided. This Lancet UF order was the largest Dennis ever received, and the total production figure for the model was a mere 71. Factors influencing this outcome were the low driving position, the high pressure hydraulic braking system and the idiosyncratic Dennis ‘O’ type gearbox, a four speed crash unit with a preselective overdrive fifth. That gearbox had been a feature of the vertical engined Lancet and East Kent drivers were fully familiar with it, but, in the UF model, its remote location together with the engine halfway long the chassis made clean changes by ear difficult to achieve. Nevertheless, these Lancet UF coaches were very refined, fast and reliable, achieving a service life of up to 17 years. East Kent’s pre war standard double decker was the Leyland Titan TD4 and then the TD5. During the war East Kent was effectively in the front line, and the fleet suffered extensive damage through enemy action in the air and from artillery firing across the Channel from the French coast. Utility Guy Arabs were allocated to East Kent to meet vehicle losses and the rugged dependability of the marque so impressed the company that the Arab became the standard post war double deck chassis up to 1957. The BET preferred supplier system then oversaw the transfer of subsequent orders to the AEC Regent V, though three Bridgemasters were also bought, all with Park Royal bodywork. Thenceforward the melodious murmur of Gardner engine and Guy gearbox was supplemented by the atonal scream of the AEC transmission. MFN 896 was an example of the last batch of Guys, one of 20 Arab IVs of 1957 with Park Royal H33/28RD bodywork of outstandingly classic proportions. The first AEC Regent Vs that followed in 1959 were the PFN registered ‘Puffins’ which wore a full fronted version of the traditional Park Royal design, but thereafter the Regent body deliveries witnessed a decline from the sublime to the ridiculous by carrying the hideous Bridgemaster derived highbridge design that so offended Southampton Corporation that it quickly transferred its long standing patronage from Park Royal to East Lancashire. The ugliness of the design was accentuated later when these Regents were turned out in NBC poppy red. The picture was taken in Canterbury in 1967 when East Kent was still a BET company, and shows 1954 Lancet UF HJG 6, by then reseated to C41C, alongside 1957 Arab IV MFN 896, with another Arab of the same type to its right. These Arabs originally presented a full destination blind display, but by 1967 the aperture had been reduced to a single line. On the right hand edge of the photo are two of the ugly duckling Park Royal Regent Vs of 1961 onwards that eventually totalled 121 in the fleet.
I’m so pleased to see someone saying what I’ve long thought about the the later Regent Vs. I was a schoolboy in Folkestone in the early ’60s, and whereas the MFN Guys were my favourites and I quite liked the PFN Regents, I thought the later Regents were freaky and designed by somebody who would probably have done well in some other occupation. On the other hand I was pleased to see the back of the lowbridge PD1As; travelling upstairs on one of those could be a depressing experience.
Don
22/01/21 – 07:38
If it wasn’t for the Duple single decker I was all ready to say “Edinburgh Corporation”. What a similarity of livery colours, livery application, double decker bodywork, etc.
Bill
01/02/21 – 06:34
Just to say that this photo is taken at ‘The Garth’ in St Stephens Rd Canterbury.
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches Dennis Lancets” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
25/01/12 – 16:59
In 1960/61 I worked on a farm at Farley Hill near Arborfield, Berkshire. Most term time afternoons I saw an elderly Dennis Lancet coach travelling to the local school to collect pupils to return them to the REME Depot at Arborfield. I think this was a Mark 2 model as it had either a Dennis O4 or Gardner 5LW engine. Could this have been a Smiths coach on contract or perhaps owned by the Depot? Incidentally there were other Dennis’s locally. Mr Gray from Finchampstead removed our pigs in a well kept mid 50s Pax and in a field several miles from the farm (I am not sure exactly where) was a complete but apparently abandoned mid 30s Flying Pig gulley emptier. Do any of your correspondents remember the Lancet or the Pig and can say what happened to them? I left the area in 1961. I have recently discovered your website and wish to say what a wonderful find it was. Congratulations.
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches Dennis Lancets” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches Dennis Lancets” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
26/10/11 – 15:33
It could possible be me in EDP 820 R C Shackleford or J Thorne back in 1960
R C Shackleford
27/10/11 – 07:43
In response to R C Shackleford, here is a (hopefully) more detailed picture of the driver of EDP 820. I also attach another view of EDP 819 which shows the driver, who Mr Shackleford may be able to identify, helping his passengers off his coach at Hampton Court. I remain convinced that the Dennis Lancet III was one of the best engineered vehicles of its time.
Roger Cox
27/10/11 – 12:05
99 per cent its me driving other driver could be Bill Riealy deceased.
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches Dennis Lancets” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
30/04/12 – 09:38
JXK 540 originally had a Whitson C33F body.
Martin
01/05/12 – 19:47
New 1.4.48, (I have recorded to Manchester Cooperative Society Ltd later to Mountain SW3), arrived with Smiths 17th January 1957 and departed 24th October 1964. Rebodied by Smith to FC35F. Apparently purchased by W Curran Ltd (Clock Garage), Caversham, 26th February 1965 for £175.
Mac Head
01/05/12 – 19:59
Recently I had a long and fascinating talk with Jim Foster, a Smith’s driver from 1962 till 1973. We went through some of my photos (taken by Graham Low and Stuart Wyss) and some of Jim’s own, and watched a black and white film of drivers building the Rose Kiln Lane garage after the war, with commentary by Mrs Jackie Mills, the Guv’nor’s daughter. Also in the film are stills of Dennises and Bedfords lined up in Mill Lane ready to leave with excursion passengers bound for Southsea and who knows where else. Jim mentioned that Smiths themselves built some bodies, but I wonder whether they were extensive rebuilds of some of the bodies that came off the prewar Leyland Cheetahs. The nice straight waistrail and window spacing are clues. Apologies to Doug Adams—I didn’t reply to his January comment—but John Whitehead and I continue to glean morsels of Smith’s history. More when available.
Chiltern Queens of Woodcote 1949 Dennis Lancet Burlingham ????
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Chiltern Queens of Woodcote” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
