Halifax Passenger Transport in the Mid-1960’s – Part Four


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262 (PXO 974) AEC Reliance MU3RV / Park Royal ‘Royalist’ C41C, new to Timpson’s, London E6.

Following the success of the previous year’s used coach purchase and with the Countryside Tour and Private Hire side doing well, a further five secondhand vehicles followed suit in 1966. Two (261/262, NRK 350 & PXO 974) had bodywork to Park Royal’s relatively uncommon and shortlived ‘Royalist’ design, 261 – like MBY 347 – being new to Bourne & Balmer of Croydon, later passing to Timpson’s, whereas 262 had been new to Timpson’s. These acquired coaches were all subject to a confusing bout of renumberings during their time. Both were rebodied with Plaxton Panorama I bodies, and passed to WYPTE, PXO 974 being briefly used by WYPTE for staff transfer between Leeds and their headquarters in Wakefield before passing through various owners before being scrapped in 1980.
Here the two are seen parked in Commercial Street on a rather miserable Bank Holiday, rather optimistically touting for business on the usually very popular Countryside Tours.

263 & 264 (TGJ 486 & 485) AEC Reliance MU3RV / Burlingham ‘Seagull Mk. V’ C41F, new to Bourne & Balmer, Croydon in 1957.
261 (NRK 350) AEC Reliance MU3RV / Park Royal ‘Royalist’ C41C, new to Bourne & Balmer, Croydon in 1955.

In addition to the two Park Royal Royalists there were also three Reliances with Burlingham Seagull Mk. V front-entrance bodies (260/263/264, TGJ 484/486/485). 260 had been new to Timpson’s, the other two (263/264) to Bourne & Balmer, Croydon, later passing to Timpson’s. These suited the Halifax livery extremely well. A further similar vehicle – with Seagull Mk.IV body – was acquired in 1968 having been new to Yelloway of Rochdale in 1956. This (200, ODK 770) was only a stopgap purchase though, and was withdrawn the following year. 260 was rebodied with a new Plaxton Panorama I body and later passed briefly to WYPTE. 263 & 264 were not rebodied and were withdrawn in 1971.
These three are pictured inside Elmwood Garage.

258 (formerly 261) AEC Reliance MU3RV / Plaxton ‘Panorama I’ C43F, chassis new 1955, body new in 1968.

NRK 350 was withdrawn by WYPTE in 1975 and sold to a dealer who retained it for many years before scrapping it. Here it is passing Skircoat Garage and turning from Skircoat Road into the lower section of Free School Lane, towards Elmwood Garage.

268 (DJX 143D) Leyland Leopard L2 / Willowbrook DP41F, new in 1966.

Back in 1964 the first two dual-purpose single deckers had materialised as 269/270 (AJX 269/270B). Based on the Leyland Leopard L2 chassis they had Willowbrook 43-seater bodies incorporating the recently introduced BET-pattern curved windscreen, but instead of the latest style of peaked domes and curved rear windows Hilditch specified the standard protruding three section destination box and the earlier design of rounded rear dome – producing a unique ‘Halifax look’ which was to be applied to all new single deckers until 1973. Externally they bore a new partially reversed livery with cream lower panels and an orange band. The interiors were in pale grey and dark green with an attractive two-tone green and red seat moquette with white ‘HPT’ monogrammed antimacassors on the headrests. A further example arrived in 1965 (267, CJX 275C), being a 41-seater and with a kind of tartan seat moquette popular on coaches at the time, and in 1966 a similar fourth one (268, DJX 143D) came along. Used on stage services as well as tours and private hire these were pleasanter Leopards than the more spartan earlier bus versions, and proved to be very useful vehicles. 269 & 270 were later repainted into bus livery, and all four passed to WYPTE, 267/269/270 being withdrawn in 1976. 268 was substantially modified for bus use by the PTE, receiving a peaked front dome, being stripped of its shiny metal external trim and the luggage boot removed, and inside the luggage racks were removed and bus seats fitted, being finally withdrawn in 1981.
268 is seen waiting to operate a local Countryside Tour when quite new, in Commercial Street – just around the corner from the department’s town centre premises in Back Commercial Street (but always referred to as Powell Street).

101 (ECP 681D) Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX/30 / Northern Counties H43/32F, new in 1966.

Following the successful demonstration of 565 CRW, a change of buying policy introduced Daimler Fleetlines into the fleet. Rear-engined double deckers had begun to appear in other places from 1958, but in 1966 they were still considered a novelty, causing many turned heads and puzzled expressions. Once again the local BET operator – Hebble Motor Services – had pipped the Corporation at the post by placing their first solitary Fleetline into service a couple of months earlier. Geoff Hilditch’s last purchases in his previous post at Great Yarmouth had been Fleetlines with Roe bodies – having a curved windscreen but flat windows in the front of the upper saloon., and he would have preferred to buy similar vehicles for Halifax. However, due to the development of new housing estates to the Rastrick side of Brighouse – an area until then only served by single deckers – it was anticipated that soon double deckers would be needed, and there was another of those low arched railway bridges to contend with. Full height bodies were reckoned to be too high, but normal low height bodies were considered to be unnecessarily low, and something inbetween was preferable. Unfortunately Roe were not able to offer an intermediate height body at the time, but Northern Counties were, and the first seven (99-105, ECP 679-685D) entered service with the Corporation in September 1966, These had the curved screen/flat upper deck window style, and the engine bustle disguised with ‘shrouds’. and the type became the standard Halifax double decker until the end. Hebble’s Fleetline – which in 1971 would be absorbed into the JOC fleet – was surprisingly similar to the Halifax examples with only detail differences, and quite unlike any other Northern Counties bodies delivered to a BET Group company.
101 is seen negotiating the bend at Lee Bridge, returning to town from Bradshaw or Queensbury on the through service to Newlands. In later years 101 was regarded by the driving staff as having the heaviest steering of any bus in the fleet.

105 (ECP 685D) Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX/30 / Northern Counties H43/32F, new in 1966.

In the early days of the Fleetline type many crew drivers – used to years of driving halfcabs with no set-back front axle – found them a handful, and there were many scrapes as they learned the hard way how to position them in tight spots. Many did not like the eerie sensation of the engine sound being thirty feet behind them or the spongy hydraulic accelerator, and the ‘easy-drive’ fingertip controlled semi automatic gearbox was all too easily abused by those less conscientious drivers. Conductors could also now all too easily stand at the front and distract the driver’s attention.
105 was the first of the type to enter service, and the writer recalls his first ride on it one Saturday afternoon on the West End Circular service, being driven by none other than manager Geoff Hilditch himself – who was accompanied by a rather nervous conductor ! Here it seen leaving Mount Tabor, approaching Sandy Fore, retracing the ill-fated 1920’s trolleybus route on its way to Wainstalls.

105 (ECP 685D)

There were 47 generally similar Northern Counties-bodied Fleetlines delivered to both fleets between 1966 and 1973. One G-registered one (290) was returned to Daimler for use as a demonstrator in Cape Town after only a brief spell in service, and an identical replacement was provided taking the same number. Hebble’s only bought-new Fleetline was taken into the JOC fleet (as 294) in 1971, along with an Alexander-bodied version (as Corporation 103) that Hebble had acquired from Yorkshire Woollen. Following the merger with Todmorden JOC in 1971, the later examples were built to a ‘proper’ lowheight specification in order that they could enter the low-roofed Todmorden Millwood Garage. More of the type were on order at the time of the WYPTE takeover in 1974, and these were eventually delivered to the Calderdale District fleet after lengthy delays – though with many changes to the original chassis and body specification. The Halifax Fleetlines eventually began to suffer structural problems around their front ends, with disturbing looking gaps appearing and windscreens prone to blowing out in high crosswinds ! The rear engine shrouds were found to be troublesome also, and so all were rebuilt in PTE days with strengthened fronts and the shrouds removed. Withdrawals commenced in 1980 and the last one served with Yorkshire Rider until 1990 (being recently acquired by a preservationist), although a few served a liitle longer as training buses.
Here 105 has now reached Wainstalls terminus beside the New Delight public house, reversed and is awaiting departure back to town and through to Causeway Foot – the borough boundary on the Keighley Road. The following year the route would be extended 200 yards along the road off the the left into the narrowest part of the village, where it would have to perform a difficult and very tight reverse on a blind corner onto to the terminus stop – typical of so many Halifax routes. This would mean a reversion to short halfcabs once more.

303 (FCP 303E) Dennis Loline III / Northern Counties H41/33F, new in 1967.

Roger had left Halifax by 1966, after which AEC Reliances – including some shortened, narrow ones to replace the Nimbuses, and more with Willowbrook DP and later Plaxton bodies, single-deck versions of the Fleetline, Seddon Pennine RU’s, Dennis Lolines and finally Leopards in their later more powerful PSU4B form, appeared on the scene. These are really beyond the scope of theis article, but he was later to pay a return visit when he photographed Loline 303 climbing Salterhebble Hill (and passing the oddly named Elephant Terrace) on its way back to town from Huddersfield. So a liitle about the Lolines.

The private hire operation had along the way secured a lucrative contract to provide works transport for hundreds of female workers between towns in the Wakefield/Barnsley/Doncaster triangle and the Meredith & Drew (later United Biscuits) factory at Ovenden – tales of the antics of these ‘ladies’ being the stuff of legend. A large fleet of single deckers including DP’s and the acquired coaches were required, but then consideration was given to replacing some of these with a lesser number of suitable double deckers in order to keep costs down and remain competitive, as the contract was renewable annually, and there were always other companies willing to jump in with a lower bid. There was also the perceived need to be able to provide appropriate double deckers for other longer distance private hire work in the future – preferably to a low height to allow for any low bridges that may have encountered. Most of the types available were unsuitable, but then thoughts turned to the Dennis Loline demonstrator that had visited in 1964. This had a Gardner 6LX engine, 4-speed semi-automatic gearbox and Northern Counties body, and had been intended for use as an overseas demonstrator, but the plan had not materialised. Further visits were arranged, then enquiries made regarding various changes to the specification – including a 5-speed gearbox – and then five were ordered. These (300-304, FCP 300-304E) came along in 1967 and were fine looking and comfortably specified vehicles, with high-backed seating, air-suspension at the rear and a fair turn of speed. Unfortunately mechanical troubles arose very soon afterwards and a Dennis service engineer was almost a resident of Halifax for quite a while as he tried to sort them out – the problems mostly arising from the complicated and congested transmission arrangements caused by the awkward fitting of the large 5-speed gearbox and transfer box in too tight a space. After only four years service it was decided to dispose of them, and they passed to the West Riding Automobile Co. who were desperately buying up Bristol Lodekkas to replace their ill-fated Guy Wulfrunians. It probably seemed that the Lolines would fit in well with the Lodekkas – from which the Loline was originally derived – and they did manage to obtain a further seven years out of them before they were finally scrapped in 1978.

In the years that followed, most of the stage operations of Hebble and all of Todmorden JOC’s were taken over- considerably enlarging the route network and bringing about the replacement of the Halifax and Todmorden JOC’s with the combined Calderdale JOC. Along with the municipal undertakings of Leeds, Bradford and Huddersfield, Halifax’s operations were taken over by the West Yorkshire PTE in 1974, Halifax being served by their Calderdale District. At deregulation in 1986 a buyout by WYPTE directors led to the privately owned Yorkshire Rider, this in turn being bought out by Badgerline Holdings, then this by the Grampian Regional Transport Group leading to the formation of FirstBus. At first using the local identity of Calderline, FirstBus soon imposed its corporate look and it is only in the last year or so that the ‘Halifax’ local identity has reappeared. First Halifax has in recent years reduced dramatically in size, with very many of its routes being given up – due either to competition from local small operators, or New-Kid-on-the-Block CentreBus/Yorkshire Tiger outbidding them on tendered work.

Throughout this article reference to the following must be acknowledged:

‘Steel Wheels and Rubber Tyres’, Vol. Two, by Geoffrey Hilditch (The Oakwood Press, 2004)

‘Halifax Passenger Transport From 1897 to 1963’, by Geoffrey Hilditch (The Oakwood Press, 2006)

‘Fleet History of Halifax Corporation….etc. ‘ (PSV Circle publication PB23, 1990)

All photographs by Roger Cox unless otherwise stated.

Text by John Stringer.


01/08/14 – 10:26

What a great article on Halifax by Roger Cox and John Stringer. Well done to you both.
In Part 1 they mention the 4 PD2s which went to Oldham in 1965 to assist with the vehicle shortage caused by the well known ‘Ministry’ fleet check.
The four were ACP 385, ACP 388, ACP 390 and ACP 392 given Oldham Fleet Nos. 465, 469, 470 and 467 respectively.
I have dug out a selection of pictures from my collection, of them working in Oldham.

Stephen Howarth

ACP 385 fleet number 465, exiting Wallshaw Street Garage crossing the appropriately named Car Street to take up a service 5. 302 EBU was the departments Land Rover. The garage exit is 54ft wide

ACP 385 again in a withdrawn condition in the yard at Wallshaw Street Garage

ACP 388 fleet number 469 seen here heading up a line of Football Specials waiting for ‘Latics’ fans to return after a match.
‘X’ was the service designation used for special workings and Depot journeys.

ACP 392 fleet number 467, with chromed radiator, parked at the rear of Wallshaw Street Garage. Next to it on the right is CBU 127C a Leyland Atlantean with Roe H43/34F bodywork

A line up of withdrawn ex Halifax buses. From the left ACP 388, ACP 390 and ACP 390 Fleet Numbers 469, 465 & 470. The bus far left is 108 HBU which overturned in an accident with a tanker on 3rd November 1967, its remains were to remain well into SELNEC days. 075 BU is ‘The Red Biddy’ tow truck.


02/08/14 – 06:24

A very interesting article with superb photographs by Roger. I always found the routes around Halifax fascinating; what other municipal fleet operated to such interesting places as Booth, Midgeley, Heptonstall, Steep Lane, Rishworth and Mill Bank, not to mention the ex-Hebble routes to Rochdale and Burnley. What a pity that these routes are nowadays mostly operated by Optare Solos.
Stephen, I am puzzled by your statement that ACP 385 became Oldham Corporation 465; According to David Wayman’s 1997 book “Oldham Corporation Buses” and also from my own memories, this bus was Oldham 468, and on your “after withdrawal” photo the fleet number looks like 468. David Wayman’s book shows Oldham 465 as ex-Sheffield LWE 110.

Don McKeown


12/08/14 – 05:52

One can only say one thing about this article, absolutely excellent.
Here is two more interesting place names that could be found on Halifax destinations Hubberton and Cunning Corner.

Trevor Knowles


12/08/14 – 15:16

The last Halifax Fleetline is currently in store at Keighley bus museum awaiting restoration. There is a recent shot of it on www.sct61.org.uk

Chris Hough


13/08/14 – 07:14

Just look at the photo’ of Dennis Loline 303 above: “Crossfield Bus Station”! – just how parochial is that? I never heard anybody refer to the old Halifax Bus Station as Crossfield Bus Station (despite the fact that’s what the signage on it side used to boldly-state) And doesn’t the style of lettering imply “Crossfield: Bus Station”? not very helpful for strangers is it?? . . . or even for the uninitiated in Huddersfield, from where the bus has just come.
Interesting is the continuation of orange along/over the near-side front mud-gard, to match the off-side from the front . . . I’ve never seen that before.

Philip Rushworth


13/08/14 – 13:06

Smiths of Reading ran ACP 627 and ACP 630 until 1964-5. They went beautiful and were the first preselects I’d ever driven. The good-looking, rationally laid out Roe bodies were the icing on the cake.

Ian T


14/08/14 – 06:52

Thank you Ian T. for posting the photos of the Halifax Regent III whilst with Smith’s of Reading. Though I have black and white photos of them they don’t do them justice, and its very nice to see what they looked like in colour.
As you say they were nice buses. Having been withdrawn way back in 1958, Smith’s bought them from North’s the Yorkshire dealer in 1959 and got good service out of them, running them until 1965.
Smith’s also bought one of the Park Royal-bodied Regents at the same time, but from the London dealer A.M.C.C. ACP 410, formerly HJOC 226 ran with Smith’s until 1963.

John Stringer


04/02/15 – 10:23

I feel that it’s about time that I expressed my thanks publicly to John Stringer for his superb articles on Halifax Passenger Transport. There is much within that I did not know, not only in respect of the public transport scene, but also of the socio-economic history of this extraordinary area of West Yorkshire. The credits for these Halifax articles are given in reverse order – John’s name should definitely be first. During my limited time in the Yorkshire area in the mid 1960s, plus occasional visits in later years, I took a number of pictures of Yorkshire and Lancashire operators, and these shots subsequently languished unseen in my possession for up to half a century. When I came across OBP, it seemed the ideal place to share some of my photos, but, in the cases of both the white and red rose counties, I lacked the background knowledge to pen a meaningful accompanying text – simply stating the obvious seemed decidedly inadequate. I therefore decided to try to approach those OBP contributors whose credentials in this area were clearly impeccable. My first collaboration was with Phil Blinkhorn, and I was extremely gratified by the welcoming reception that Phil gave to my idea. The superbly written, expansive articles that Phil supplied to go with my Manchester area pictures may be found elsewhere on OBP, and I cannot thank him enough. Emboldened by this result, I approached John Stringer with a proposal for a similar project in respect of Halifax. John’s exceptional knowledge of the area was clear from his perceptive contributions to OBP, and his positive response was splendid. I am very glad that my pictures from many years ago should have lately become the catalyst for such detailed and enlightening articles from Phil and John.
When I arrived from Croydon, after four and a half years with London Transport at Reigate, to take up the position of Traffic Clerk in Halifax in December 1964, I possessed only a motor cycle licence – I hadn’t even driven a car. My first experience behind the wheel of a Halifax bus took place early in 1965 in PD2 ACP 391, originally No.107 until an unscheduled encounter with the Greetland railway bridge in 1963 resulted in its subsequent emergence as an open topper for driver training and tree lopping purposes. By then, this bus was almost 18 years old, and its later career as a trainer had effectively removed much of the remaining synchromesh in the gearbox. My initial attempts probably helped this process along quite dramatically. On my first trip out, Instructor Arthur Brearley took it up to Saville Park, or “The Moor” as it was locally known, and handed it over to me in, if my recollections are correct, Manor Heath Road. I got it up to third gear and proceeded ahead cautiously without incident in a westerly direction, but he then told me to turn left at (I think) Queens Gate. As a bus enthusiast almost from the nappy stage, I knew that turning the corner with a bus required several rotations of the steering wheel, and, after dropping down efficiently into second gear, I attempted to undertake this manoeuvre, only to discover that Leylands were not designed to be steered by seven stone weaklings. I managed to shift direction by about ten degrees, before mounting the grass and mercifully stalling the thing. After that inauspicious start, matters could only improve, and I felt that I had mastered the heaviness of Leyland controls until we went out in Leopard No.231. I pulled away from Skircoat Road in second gear and then found that I couldn’t move the gearstick at all. I was told that the gearbox in this bus, which was effectively the prototype Leopard, was virtually solid until the oil and internals had warmed up, and even then a course of muscle building steroids would greatly assist the process. Thankfully, the later Leopards, despite heavy controls, were rather better. The Worldmasters were straightforward to drive once one got used to the marked delay in the response from the gearbox to movements of the selector lever. Somewhat later, when a couple of ex Sheffield AEC Monocoaches arrived, I found these to be very much nicer in every respect than the single deck Leylands.
When still under training, we went out one day in a Nimbus, and I took to this little bus instantly. All the controls were light, and the six speed gearbox responded to sympathetic and gentle treatment. This was in complete contrast to the brute force often required with the Leylands that predominated in the fleet, and the majority of drivers seemed unable to adapt their technique to suit the Nimbus. The little Albions were almost universally despised by the driving force, and when they were despatched elsewhere owing to their mechanical fragility, staff morale rocketed dramatically. I, however, loved them, and was always ready to work a vacant Heptonstall duty with one. Happily, I reacquainted myself with the Nimbus a few years later when moonlighting at weekends for North Downs around Horsham.
I tended to differ from the majority view in respect of other types also. To the average driver, if such a creature exists, the “best bus” is the fastest bus. Because of the exceptionally severe gradients found in much of the territory, the Halifax bus fleet had differentials of about 6.5 :1, which placed a distinct limitation upon maximum speed. The PD2s/PD3s/Regent IIIs/Daimler CVL6s would do about 36-38 mph, the Regent Vs about 40mph (with an accompanying racket that suggested more like 60mph), but the CVG6s resolutely refused to exceed 32mph, even downhill. In contrast to the loosely governed 1800 maximum rpm of the AEC and Leyland engines, the Gardner 6LW was rigidly governed to 1700 rpm and had an all speed governor which was set by the accelerator pedal. For example, pressing the pedal halfway would set the governor to, say, 1300 rpm, and once the engine reached that speed the governor would cut in, the effect being felt by the driver by the noticeable increase in the resistance of the accelerator to foot pressure. One could feel the resistance build up under one’s foot as the engine speed increased. The Gardner governor was extremely effective, and nothing would induce the engine to exceed the 1700 rpm maximum, so charging downhill for extra speed to make up time, always possible to some degree with the other types, did not work with a CVG6. Adding to this the engine’s modest 112 bhp, and the occasional unpredictability of the spring loaded preselector (it could really hurt when the pedal came out ‘half a mile’), there resulted a combination of features that did not make for a bus popular with the driving staff. Ever perverse, I, a strong Gardner fan, loved them, particularly the later Roe bodied examples, and tried to get one whenever possible. I recall taking over a Hebden Bridge bound Regent V in George Street one Saturday, where the departing driver warned me that the engine was leaking exhaust fumes into the cab. Rather than run late or lose mileage, I took the thing on, and soon regretted doing so. Back at Crossfield Bus Station on the return trip to Brighouse, and dizzyingly high on carbon monoxide, I sought a replacement from the bus park, and was told to take whatever I liked. From a choice of an old Regent III, a PD2 and a CVG/Roe, I picked the Daimler, and off we went, not entirely to the satisfaction of the conductor who now had an open platform rather than a cosy folding door. Sadly, there was some kind of parade in Brighouse and we were seriously delayed before leaving again for Halifax where we were to be relieved. Nothing I could say to the relieving driver would convince him that our late arrival was down to congestion in Brighouse. To him, it was the fault of the ‘slow Daimler’, and he couldn’t understand why I hadn’t taken absolutely anything else instead from the bus park as a replacement for the dodgy Regent V. He departed for Hebden Bridge in high dudgeon, and such minimal stock as I possessed thus plummeted further. The ‘B’ (Joint Committee) fleet always seemed to owe mileage to the ‘A’ (Corporation) fleet, and, in retrospect, I can see that I contributed to this imbalance by choosing Roe Daimlers as replacements for faulty ‘B’ fleet AECs and Leylands whenever I could.
Geographically, the old Halifax Borough was a place encompassing extraordinary contrasts. To the south, the boundary ran through urban development on the brink of the Calder valley, quite close to the town centre, whereas, to the north and west, the borough swept out to embrace swathes of wild Pennine moorland. Though I did often drive on the Corporation ‘A’ services when covering duties on the road, my preference was for the out of town ‘B’ services, particularly the Brighouse – Hebden Bridge 48/49 routes, which were normally the province of the PD3 and Regent V 30 footers. The PD3 was by far the quieter beast of the two, and the more predictable, except in the braking department. Why Leyland, back in its Spurrier days, never attended to the serious lack of retardation in this chassis is surely astonishing. The Regent V brakes were snatchy and poorly progressive, but they were a bit better than the Leyland effort. Even so, on my sundry trips into Bradford as a passenger by Hebble Regent V, my knuckles would go white gripping the handrail as the bus plummeted headlong down the gradients along the Queensbury route. Unlike those sitting nonchalantly around me, I knew just how borderline such driving techniques really were. Only subsequently, on reading the reminiscences of Geoffrey Hilditch on the subject of Hebble maintenance standards, did I realise that my disquietude on those occasions fell well short of reality. The Regent V had light, positive steering and a fully synchromesh gearbox, but the howl from the latter in concert with the raucous engine played havoc with the eardrums. I was not a fan. By contrast, the PD2 was a fundamentally sound piece of machinery and taking one along the windy ridge to Queensbury or up the slopes above the Calder and Ryburn valleys to places such as Barkisland, Midgley, Norland, Sowerby et al, was eminently satisfying, especially on those sadly rare climatic occasions when clear views might be had across the dramatic scenery. It was all so long ago now, but I cannot imagine being enthused today by a driving duty around Halifax in any of the modern mechanical nonentities.

Roger Cox


06/02/15 – 07:00

Thanks Roger for your kind words. It was a pleasurable trip down memory lane for me.

Phil Blinkhorn


06/02/15 – 07:00

I always appreciate both John’s and Roger’s postings regarding HPT. The Halifax Fleetlines pictured in this thread have that elaborate Daimler badge at the front – which I believe Daimler charged extra for . . . and which one operator refused to pay for, and refused to return the removed badges until the cost was deducted from the invoice. There are some Oldham PD2s pictured on one of the threads: I was driving though Oldham today, and at the A62/IRR roundabout the First Wright-thingy in Oldham heritage livery went past – I must say that the pommard-cream livery looked superb (I can think of better liveries, but in comparison to the battleship-grey “dazzle” camouflage that is First’s most recent livery . . .)

Philip Rushworth


06/02/15 – 17:11

Very pleasing to read that First had made some effort to recognise Oldham’s centenary.
That’s in marked contrast to Stagecoache’s apathy on the subject of Stockport’s centenary of bus operations in 2013 (perhaps they thought that trolleybuses don’t count!)

Orla Nutting


07/02/15 – 06:14>

Living not far from Halifax I found this of great interest, although I’ve only briefly driven a bus, and that in the Barnsley area.
First has several buses in heritage liveries in South and West Yorkshire and others in Leicester and Swansea. There may well be others. The First Manchester website has a heritage page with a brief note on the operators (municipal plus LUT) whose liveries they are commemmorating.

Geoff Kerr


07/02/15 – 06:15

I must thank Roger for asking me to collaborate with the article, and for his appreciative comments, and also to thank all those others who have commented favourably. Thank You.

John Stringer


18/01/17 – 17:39

How fantastic to read something as well written as this.
Thank you guys so much for sharing your thoughts and giving such a tremendous set of historical references.
My only regret – I have only just now found the articles on the site.
I am inspired to continue documenting/publishing my recently discovered notebooks from the 1960’s.
Thanks again to all concerned, good job!

Stuart Emmett

If you have not read this article from the beginning, click here, you won’t be disappointed.

Halifax Passenger Transport in the Mid-1960’s – Part Three

Not read this article from the beginning, click here

423 (LUA 423) AEC Regent III 9612E / Roe H31/25R, new to Leeds City Transport (423) 1947. (Photo – John Stringer)

There was a severe delay in the delivery of more PD2’s intended for 1964/65, due to a protracted labour dispute at Weymann’s. Some vehicles that were due to replaced had to be given a reprieve, but others needed to go and this led to a vehicle shortage. Consequently four Roe-bodied Regent III’s formerly in the Leeds City Transport fleet were purchased from North’s, the dealer, in July1964 to help out for a while – remaining in their mostly dark green livery with the lighter green window surrounds repainted with Halifax cream. One was allocated to the Corporation fleet (40, LUA 440), and three to the JOC (420/422/423, LUA 420/416/423), a further example (49, LUA 427) being added to the Corporation fleet in the November. Leeds C.T. were well known for their policy of derating vehicles for economy purposes and this became obvious when these had to work hard fully laden in Halifax’s terrain. Consequently they were unpopular with crews and passengers alike – not only due to their lack of urge, but also their lack of heaters and generally sombre appearance compared to the cheerful indigenous buses. Whenever possible they tended to be mostly confined to schools and peak period services. 40 passed briefly to the JOC in 1965 as 440, but all were withdrawn by the end of the year.
423 is seen leaning on the bend from Godley Cutting into Godley Road, having just passed under Godley Bridge, as it works a schools journey towards town. To the left can be seen an example of Halifax’s other double deckers – the double-decker houses once so familiar on the steep hillsides, with the lower two floors being one house accessed from the main road, and the upper one or two facing the opposite way being accessed from a street at a higher level round the back. Those pictured were all swept away in the late 1960’s along with many hundreds of other nearby properties in order to create a derelict wasteland overrun with rosebay willow herb.

200 (MBY 347) AEC Reliance MU3RV / Park Royal C41C, new to Bourne & Balmer of Croydon in 1954.

It was Geoff Hilditch’s desire from soon after arriving at Halifax to develop the Tours and Private Hire business. Having cancelled two from an order for PD2 double deckers and replaced them with a pair of smart new dual-purpose Willowbrook-bodied Leopards in a revised livery, he then wished to equip two of the Nimbuses similarly. This Reliance coach had been in the fleet of Bourne & Balmer of Croydon , and later BET subsidiary Timpson’s – but had been sold to Holloway of Scunthorpe, with whom it received frontal damage in an accident. Sold to North’s, the dealer, it came to the notice of Hilditch who in 1965 is said to have then acquired it for a modest sum with a view to using the seats to reseat a Nimbus. Instead it was repaired by his bodyshop with a modified frontal treatment and put into service as coach 200 (MBY347). After a spate of renumberings it was rebodied with a new Plaxton Panorama I body, ending up as 256. It passed to WYPTE which used it as a mobile sales outlet for their new MetroCard. It passed briefly in 1976 to a preservationist, then becoming a stock-car transporter for a few years more.
Here it is pictured awaiting attention in the dockshop at Skircoat Garage with a CVG6 behind.

19 (TWJ 505) PRV/AEC Monocoach MC3RV / Park Royal B44F, new to Sheffield JOC (1205) in 1955.

In 1965 to help further with the ongoing shortage, North’s supplied two of these relatively uncommon Monocoaches (19/20, TWJ 505/506) which had been part of the Sheffield JOC fleet. The Monocoach was technically a Park Royal product – effectively an integrally constructed (chassisless) version of the more common Park Royal-bodied Reliance to which it bore a strong resemblance. Cautious and conservative bus engineers were not convinced at that stage of the merits of integral construction and tended to give them a wide berth, though they were favoured by the Scottish Bus Group. These two had all the usual early Reliance type growling sound effects, and with their mostly dark red interiors and floral seat moquette felt from a passenger’s point of view more like they were riding on a Hebble, rather than a Corporation bus. Transferred to the JOC in 1967 as 219/220, they were withdrawn in 1969.
19 is pictured at the bottom of Bradford Road, Stump Cross, where the Bradford road joins the A58 from Leeds at an acute angle – coming in on the right side of the photo. Before the installation of traffic lights in the mid-1960’s this was a serious accident blackspot, with collisions occurring often several times a week. It is returning from Northowram Village and will then operate across town to the General Hospital. A familiar and nostalgic scene for the writer who in his young childhood days lived only 100 yards away from here.

65 (CCP 165C) Leyland Titan PD2/37 /Roe H37/28F, new in 1965.

There were 30 Weymann-bodied PD2/37’s on order for 1964/65 (eight for the Corporation and seven for the JOC in each year), two as already mentioned being cancelled in favour of a pair of Leopard DP’s. The strike at Weymann’s dragged on, none being delivered in 1964, and eventually Roe agreed to body ten of them in 1965. The chassis were stored at Elmwood Garage for quite a while before being despatched to Leeds, from where they reappeared as eight for the Corporation (59-66, CCP 159-166C) and two for the JOC (278/279, CCP 523/524C). With bodies that were in effect forward-entrance versions of the 1956 Daimlers, they were most handsome vehicles, having the front destination and number blinds in three separate apertures – which was to be the standard for double deckers from then on. They featured a new seat moquette pattern specially commissioned from Holdsworth’s (whose mill was situated just behind Elmwood Garage) incorporating the orange, green, cream and black colours of the bus livery, with green vynide trim – also to become standard until 1973. The interior was in Roe’s familiar olive green with metallic grey window surrounds, the doors had full depth glazing, and there was a return to rear route number indicators – not specified since the Daimlers. They had excellent visibility for the driver with deep cab windows, and the bodies remained sound and rattle-free throughout their lives. All passed to WYPTE, 66 going in 1976, most in 1978/79 but 62 surviving until 1980 – being the penultimate halfcab. Three were converted to training buses, one being sold off as surplus by the PTE, but the other two passing to Yorkshire Rider – the writer as an Instructor having the distinction of having trained the last driver to pass their PSV Test on the last one the day before it was withdrawn in 1990. One (62) was exported to Denver, Colorado where it may still exist, otherwise sadly none survived into preservation.
In the picture, though still a fairly new service bus, L-plated 65 is being used for training purposes, and is standing in Heath Road, opposite Skircoat Road Garage – which is just out of view to the right. Incidentally the writer passed his PSV test on similar bus 59 !

280 (CJX 320C) Leyland Titan PD2/37 / Weymann H36/28F, new in 1965

The balance of the order for Weymann-bodied PD2’s finally began arriving towards the very end of 1965. There were ten for the JOC (280-289, CJX 320-329C) and in early 1966 came the remaining eight for the Corporation (67-74, DCP 67-74D). They featured the recessed windscreen as used on the 1963 PD3’s, but the interiors were in green with pale grey formica and the new special moquette. These and the Roe-bodied PD2’s were generally regarded as far superior to the earlier Leylands, 280-289 also being the fastest of them all for some reason. Just prior to the formation of WYPTE, 68 was turned out in a proposed ‘Calderdale District’ livery of cream with orange relief, but this was rejected. Then with 67 and a variety of other vehicles it appeared in a Hilditch-designed livery of dark green and cream – which was also firmly rejected. After the takeover a universal buttermilk and verona green livery was adopted, and applied somewhat uncomfortably to many of the older vehicles. Most were withdrawn in 1978, 282 being the last vehicle to operate in the green, orange and cream livery – albeit rather faded by then.
280 is seen here at Salterhebble, having just descended the short but sharp Salterhebble Hill about a mile and a half from town on the Huddersfield Road, from which it will shortly bear right at the Calder & Hebble junction and aim for West Vale and its hilltop village destination of Stainland.

An unidentified PD2 of the 280-289 batch

Another of the same type is seen in wintry conditions climbing Upper Bolton Brow opposite Crow Wood Park on the upper fringe of Sowerby Bridge only a couple of hundred yards before crossing the borough boundary into Halifax. It is returning from Tuel Lane to town.

Demonstrator 565 CRW – Daimler Fleetline CRG6 / Alexander H44/34F, new in 1963.

When Geoff Hilditch arrived at Halifax his predecessor had already placed orders for Leyland double-deckers for 1964/65 delivery. He has said that had this not been the case he would have preferred to have bought Roe-bodied Daimler CVG6LX’s, but considering purchases beyond 1965 he set about arranging visits by a host of all the available demonstration vehicles he could muster. During 1964 there were double decker demonstrations by a Daimler Fleetline, two different Leyland Atlanteans, AEC Renown and RMF Routemaster, Guy Arab V and Dennis Loline. For further comparison the Department included its own Leyland re-engined CVG6 (92), a PD3 (206) and a Regent V (218) in the ‘competition’. The Routemaster was certainly the most favoured by the staff – both engineering and driving – and achieved the best score in the maintenance cost calculations, though at nearly £4,000 more than the Fleetline or Atlantean it was never going to be a serious contender. The Leyland-engined CVG6 achieved the best fuel consumption score, but rear engines were considered the way to go and though five Lolines eventually came our way to fill a special need, the Fleetline otherwise became the choice for new double deckers from 1966.
Alexander-bodied Fleetline 565 CRW paid three visits altogether, and here it is seen second time around near King Cross on the long Hebden Bridge-Brighouse service.

West Yorkshire R.C.C. SRG15 (HWU 641C) Bristol RELL6G / ECW B54F, new in 1965.

Having tried all the double decker demonstrators and made a decision which to go for, Hilditch turned his attention the following year to single deckers. Once again the local public were treated to a variety of types, including a Leyland Panther and Panther Cub, AEC Swift and two Daimler Roadliners – both bus and coach versions. One vehicle that paid a visit for inspection but was not used in service was this West Yorkshire Bristol RELL6G with the original design of ECW bus body. Prior to this the state-owned Bristol company had for many years only been allowed to sell its products to state-owned operators, but an exchange of shares between the Bristol and Leyland companies allowed them to get around this restriction and there was then a push to sell them on the open market. Generally regarded as the best of all the rear-engined single deck models of the 1960’s, at that point there was no shorter length Bristol to suit Halifax’s operating terrain anyway, and unfortunately none ever came Halifax’s way.
It is seen here parked just inside the front of Elmwood Garage, with – yet again – Regent III 373 looking on.

All photographs by Roger Cox unless otherwise stated.

Text by John Stringer.

Part Four, click here

Halifax Passenger Transport in the Mid-1960’s – Part Two

Not read this article from the beginning, click here

4 (KCP 4) Leyland Royal Tiger Worldmaster RT3/1 / Weymann B43F, new 1958. (Photo – John Stringer)

One-man-operation was brought in on a more serious scale in 1958 when the Siddal, Norton Tower and Washer Lane routes were converted. To provide for this nine new single deckers were required. Manager Le Fevre was very much a Leyland man, but their current standard underfloor-engined offering – the Tiger Cub – was far too underpowered to be considered any good for local use. Once the Tiger Cub had become Leyland’s standard home market model the previous heavyweight Royal Tiger had then been substantially revised and upgraded specifically for overseas markets – the result was the Royal Tiger Worldmaster. Now fitted as standard with Pneumocyclic semi-automatic transmission and air brakes and generally to a longer length than current UK regulations would allow, Leyland did list – but didn’t seem to promote – a shorter version to UK specification suitable for bodies of 30 feet. Halifax purchased nine (1-9, KCP 1-9) and had them fitted with these basic but workmanlike Weymann B42F bodies. The model remained uncommon in Britain, Glasgow taking the largest number – similar, but dual-doored – and there were coaches for Ellen Smith of Rochdale and Gliderways of Smethwick. They were mechanically indestructible and just ran and ran without hassle for many years – in the end it was probably only corrosion from heavily salted roads that secured their fate. They all passed to WYPTE in 1971 and withdrawals began in 1975, two passing to an operator in the Irish Republic. The very last one (2, by then 3372) hung on until 1979. An attempt was made to repatriate one on those from Ireland, but sadly it was to no avail.
4 is pictured on a gloomy day returning from Norton Tower, and in the process of turning from Victoria Street into St. James Road, which ran across the the top of the original Crossfield Bus Station.

207 (KCP 16) Leyland Titan PD3/4 / Metro-Cammell H40/32F, new in 1959.

Le Fevre’s first order for double deckers materialised in early 1959 when eight Leyland Titan PD3/4’s with Metro-Cammell ‘Aurora’ bodies arrived for the JOC (201-208, KCP 10-17). They were the first double deckers in the fleet to the recently permitted length of 30 feet, and the first with forward entrances – though local BET operator Hebble had beaten them to it the previous year with a pair of AEC Regent V’s with similar bodies. They also marked a reversion to manual gearboxes – much to the dismay of many of the drivers. Like the Worldmasters they featured a revised destination layout with destination, via and number blinds all contained within a single aperture. They largely took over the role of the 1948 Regent III eight-footers and were concentrated on the Brighouse-Hebden Bridge and Huddersfield routes. Also like the Worldmasters their interiors were of a more basic nature then hitherto with much painted metal and leatherette seats, but they were pleasant buses to ride on. All survived into WYPTE ownership, but by then body corrosion was advancing rapidly, withdrawal commencing in 1975, the last survivor – by then 3203 – succumbing in 1976.
207 is seen here passing over the brow of Godley Lane within Godley Cutting which cuts through the north-western end of Beacon Hill. It is about to pass under Godley Bridge, a steel structure which replaced the previous arched stone bridge in 1900 in order to allow the passage of trams, which had also required the widening of the cutting. After this the road swings to the right and descends New Bank before turning across North Bridge into the town. It is on the JOC’s then longest route, from Brighouse to Hebden Bridge via Halifax.

216 (LJX 216) AEC Regent V 2D3RA / Metro-Cammell H40/32F, new in 1960.

More thirty-footers entered the fleet in 1960, but this time there was a reversion to the products of Southall. The 16 AEC Regent V 2D3RA’s had AV590 engines and all-synchromesh gearboxes with hydraulic clutches, and virtually identical bodies to the previous year’s PD3’s. There were eight each for the Corporation (11-18, LJX 11-18) and the JOC (211-218, LJX 211-218). The Corporation ones gravitated mostly to the Mixenden/Highroad Well routes for many years, whilst the JOC ones operated the same routes as the PD3’s. Opinions differ widely as to the relative merits of this model compared to the PD3, but they were generally considered to be less durable and were certainly much noisier. Injector pipes would often blow off, clutches would frequently lose their hydraulic pressure and fail to operate, and the bonnet lids were prone to blowing open in high cross winds ! Halifax’s final GM Geoff Hilditch certainly was not at all keen, and at the first opportunity they were sent packing – though several passed into the hands of independents – most of them being beautifully repainted into their new owners’ liveries by the Skircoat Road paintshop as part of the deal. The last ones were withdrawn by WYPTE in 1976, 215 passing eventually to Tony Blackman – owner of Regent III 277 – for preservation, though it has been in storage for many a year now.
Like 207 in the previous photo it is seen here in Godley Cutting heading for town on the Brighouse-Hebden Bridge through service.

221 (MCP 221) Leyland Titan PD2/37 / Metro-Cammell H36/28F, new in 1960

Later in 1960 a further 16 double deckers entered service. Owing to the 30-footers being considered unsuitable for many of the off-the-main-road routes, these reverted to the shorter 27-foot length, being Leyland Titan PD2/37’s again with Metro-Cammell bodies. Once more they were split equally between the Corporation (21-28, MJX 21-28) and the JOC (221-228, MCP 221-228). 27 was exhibited at the Commercial Motor Show that year and carried a plaque to that effect in the lower saloon. These, weighing nearly half a ton less than the equivalent PD3 yet having the same engine, were livelier performers on the local hilly routes, though the ride was distinctly choppier. They, and other similar later examples, did a lot of hard work around Halifax and the Calder Valley and could be considered the workhorses of the fleet throughout the 1960’s and 1970’s. First to go was 225 which didn’t quite make it into WYPTE ownership, but the rest did – most going in 1976 by which time they were pretty worn out.
221 is pictured in Stainland Road heading towards West Vale, and passing under the strongly arched railway bridge beside the former Greetland Station (closed 1962) on the 1841 Manchester & Leeds/L&YR Calder Valley line. As illustrated here double deckers have to pass through the arch in the centre of the road to avoid colliding with it. Leyland-bodied PD2/1 107 unfortunately did just that in 1963 and due to the damage caused was subsequently cut down for use as a tree-lopper and driver trainer.

33 (PJX 33) Leyland Leopard L1 / Weymann B42F new in 1962. (Photo – John Stringer)

As more operators decided that Leyland’s Tiger Cub was too underpowered but that the Worldmaster was rather too substantial, the company compromised and fitted an O600 engine to what was essentially a Tiger Cub chassis and from this evolved the first Leopards. In 1961 the JOC took a solitary example (231, OCP 231) based on the L2 coach variant, and with a Weymann body similar to those on the Worldmasters. This one however was delivered as a dual-door standee bus, but trade union opposition quickly put paid to any such idea. It lived a brief and shadowy existence in this form mostly banished to the Brighouse to Field Lane local service, until being returned to Weymann in 1963 to be rebuilt as a standard single door 42-seater. It originally had a notoriously difficult gearbox which was eventually replaced by an improved unit.
Further extensions of OMO were to take place in 1962, and so a further 16 Leopards came along – this time the L1 bus version – with single door bodies otherwise similar to 231. There were nine for the Corporation (31-39, PJX 31-39) and seven for the JOC (232-238, PJX 232-238). These allowed conversion of the Northowram, Shibden, Southowram and Brighouse via Southowram routes and replacement of the Regal III’s on the Elland-Sowerby Bridge and Elland-Ripponden routes. Quite basic and noisy inside, and with heavy, clunky driving controls they could be hard work to drive for a full shift on tightly timed, hilly, stop-start local routes, but once ‘got going’ they could ‘motor on a bit’ with a distinctive exhaust crackle.
Withdrawn by WYPTE between 1976 and 1981, two (35 & 232) have passed into the hands of local preservationists and are regular rally participants.

Leopard 33 – appropriately on route 33 – is seen leaving the former Shibden terminus and carefully negotiating the single track Paddock Road on the short-lived extension to Queensbury, introduced in 1967 and withdrawn in 1971. For the next mile or so the route would be mostly like this with just the occasional passing place, before joining the main A644 for the last section – with a deviation through Hunger HIll Estate – into its hilltop village destination.

248 (PJX 248) Leyland Titan PD2/37 / Metro-Cammell H36/28F, new in 1962.

A further sixteen PD2/37’s similar to the previous ones came along in 1962 – once again eight each for the Corporation (41-48, PJX 41-48) and the JOC (241-248, PJX 241-248). The main differences from the previous ones was the neater interior window frames and the fitting of fluorescent lighting . Passing to WYPTE they were withdrawn between 1974 and 1976 – with one exception. 43 (then as 3043) survived into the late 1970’s when it was taken out of service and parked up in the Skircoat Road bodyshop, where spasmodically over a lengthy period it was extensively rebuilt, emerging fully repainted in the latest PTE livery and re-entering service. By this time the ranks of halfcabs were rapidly diminishing, and 43 soon became the last one in service in Halifax, being finally withdrawn in 1980. Because of its condition it was a choice candidate for preservation, and at the present time it is once again being restored by its owner – former Halifax enthusiast but now Devon-based Richard McAllister.

252 (RJX 252) Albion Nimbus NS3AN / Weymann B31F, new in 1963.

Many of Halifax JOC’s routes ran out of town along busy main road corridors for a few miles, then climbed out of the valleys to to serve hilltop villages before meandering along narrow, tortuous country lanes to their eventual destination in the back of beyond, usually on the edge of bleak moors. Because of the nature of the outer ends of these routes, single deckers often had to be used, but with no limited stop conditions these could easily become overloaded on the busier sections. Manager Le Fevre sought to operate the main corridors with double deckers which would then connect with feeder services to the outer districts provided by a small fleet of nimble, small capacity single deckers. Accordingly after trying out a demonstrator, ten Albion Nimbuses (250-259, RJX 251-259) were purchased, entering service in the summer of 1963. They featured an Albion-built engine which was effectively a four-cylinder version of the Leyland 0375 used in the Tiger Cub, an Albion-designed gearbox and BMC axles. Neat looking bodywork was provided by Weymann, similar in style to recent ones by Harrington for Western Welsh, but having the large, protruding Halifax type destination box, and curved windscreens – the first in the fleet. The windows were quite large and the interior was finished in a cream formica with green vynide-covered seats, giving a very light and airy feel inside.

252 is pictured descending Upper Bolton Brow towards Sowerby Bridge on its way to Mill Bank. The cottages to the right have long since been pulled down, and in the upper left background the Willow Hall Mills complex later followed suit being replaced by a new housing development.

Geoff Hilditch had already suffered unpleasant experiences with Nimbuses whilst GM at Great Yarmouth, and was glad to leave them behind when he took up the equivalent post at Halifax in 1963. One can imagine his horror on arriving here to find that his predecessor had bequeathed him a fleet of ten new ones ! The feeder service idea never materialised and the unfortunate little buses were simply put out onto the existing routes, often having to carry heavy loads on the busy sections. As often happens when major operators take on lightweight buses, they were not treated sympathetically. The engineers maintained them like heavyweights, the frustrated drivers drove (and abused) them like heavyweights and the depot staff and traffic department frequently allowed them to be allocated to inappropriate routes where they got a ‘hammering’. Mechanical problems and deficiencies quickly arose and they were almost totally unloved. Two (250/251) had their seats recovered in moquette and fitted with headrests, and were repainted into the recently introduced DP livery with the green and cream areas reversed. Eventually the Nimbuses often found a niche operating schools’ swimming baths contracts where their 31-seat capacity was just right for the typical class size, and driven sympathetically by the more senior drivers they didn’t venture far from home.

251 (RJX 251) Albion Nimbus NS3AN / Weymann B31F new in 1963.

Hilditch quickly opted to rid himself of the Nimbuses whilst they were still fairly new and saleable, and they were all withdrawn and sold between 1965 and 1967. All found ready buyers, and as happened later with some of the Regent V’s, most of the Nimbuses were repainted for their new owners by the department’s paintshop. 250 passed to the small independent E. & T. Harvey of Mousehole in Cornwall, where it was found to be ideal for negotiating the village’s narrow streets. It ran successfully there for many more years before being purchased by a Lincolnshire-based preservationist and restored to its dual-purpose livery once more. 255 remained in the town for a few more years having passed to the Corporation’s Welfare Department, replacing an ex-Bristol Omnibus Bristol K-type that had been cut down into a single decker. With a large section of its nearside cut away, a nearside wheelchair lift was installed and the previous orange lower panels were repainted in a perculiar salmon pink shade.
Here 251, minus its seat headrests, stands in Elmwood Garage awaiting collection by its new owner Booth & Fisher of Halfway, near Sheffield. Booth & Fisher ran a number of Nimbuses, this one later having to have its tall destination box cut down due to clearance problems under a very low bridge. It even lasted long enough to pass with the company to the South Yorkshire PTE, not being withdrawn until 1978.

53 (TCP 53) Leyland Titan PD3/4 / Weymann H40/32F, new in 1963. (Photo – John Stringer)

In 1963 it was the turn of the Corporation fleet to receive some PD3’s and these eight (51-58, TCP 51-58) had bodywork by Weymann which was like a lengthened version of the previous year’s PD2s, but with lower panels that were slightly deeper and a windscreen that was recessed towards the top edge. The interiors still featured brown vynide seating but for some obscure reason the window surrounds on 54 were finished in a vivid green colour. All passed to WYPTE and all were withdrawn and scrapped in 1976.
53 is pictured in Northowram Village, having passed the earlier terminus at the end of Towngate (in the background, where the cars are parked) and heading down The Hough a further further few hundred yards to the later terminus at Stephen Close.

All photographs by Roger Cox unless otherwise stated.

Text by John Stringer.

Part three – click here

Halifax Passenger Transport in the Mid-1960’s – Part One

In late 1964 following a spell with London Transport, southern-born Roger Cox took up the position of Traffic Clerk with Halifax Passenger Transport – the combined name for the Halifax Corporation and Halifax Joint Omnibus Committee operations – and spent two years there before returning south to progress his career in the industry. A permanent situation of staff shortages meant that all ‘inside’ staff were encouraged to work ‘on the road’ for overtime and so Roger would soon have a more direct involvement with the actual vehicles, routes and local topography than perhaps he would have originally bargained for. There follows a selection of Roger’s photographs – with a few additions to fill any gaps – illustrating the vehicles he encountered during his stay in the town.

At the outbreak of the Second World War Halifax Corporation & JOC had been expecting to take delivery of further AEC Regents, but in the event only one had materialised. No utility types were purchased at all during the war and the existing fleet had to soldier on – including many early 1930’s AEC’s which would otherwise have been withdrawn. By the end of the war a high proportion the fleet was well past its best and in urgent need of replacement. The Department placed orders for 90 Regent III double deck chassis with the 9.6 litre engine and preselector gearbox, and 24 of the equivalent Regal III single deck chassis for delivery in batches throughout the rest of the decade. 74 of the Regents were to be bodied by Park Royal, the remaining 16 by Roe. Also, following the loan of the demonstrator prototype, there were also to be nine of the newly introduced Leyland PD2 chassis fitted with Leyland’s own design of bodywork.

105 (ACP 389) Leyland Titan PD2/1 / Leyland H33/26R new in 1947. (Photo – John Stringer)

The nine Leyland Titan PD2/1’s with Leyland’s own H30/26R bodywork looked oddly out of place in a fleet which had been predominantly AEC since 1930. Most of the Regents and Regals from the mid-thirties had been equipped with preselector gearboxes – though a few of the later deliveries had reverted to the crash variety – but all the early postwar AEC deliveries were to be of the latest air-operated preselector type. With no such gearbox available from Leyland at the time, the PD2’s had manual gearboxes with a crash first gear, but the new-fangled synchromesh on 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Seven were delivered in as intended in 1947, but the last two were delayed until 1948 – arriving with a modified heating system which resulted in a slight difference to the shape of the panel under the front nearside canopy. Once on the go they were very good performers on the local hills, and were very characterful in the sound effects department, with the typical period Leyland combination of rhythmic, hunting tickover and asthmatic wheezing and whistling sounds from the pneumatic governor. Another feature seemingly unique to this type of body was the pair of heater dishes at the top of the lower saloon front bulkhead, which were made up of concentric copper discs. After the renumbering of the Corporation fleet in 1954 they had become 100-108 (ACP 384-392). Eight had been delivered with chrome-plated radiator shells, but one featured an orange painted shell, giving it a distinctive appearance – this being switched over the years from one PD2 to another, but spending most of its time on 101. 100 had been converted to Training Bus 411 as early as 1959, but been withdrawn in 1963. 107 had been involved in a low bridge accident in 1963, after which the conversion to open-top was completed officially and it became Training Bus and Tree Lopper 418 to replace 411. By 1968 it had been converted into mock-up of an 1898 tramcar for use in the forthcoming 70th Anniversary parade. In 1965 108 was been briefly transferred to the JOC as 308, but it and the others were withdrawn in 1965/66, four passing to Oldham Corporation to assist with a shortage there and lasting until 1969.
105 is pictured in Great Albion Street passing the town’s original Crossfield Bus Station (opened in 1954) with the Odeon Cinema in the background. The Bus Station closed, and services transferred to the current Winding Road Bus Station in 1989.

215 (ACP 629) AEC Regent III 9612E / Roe H31/25R, new in 1948.
(Photo – Charles H. Roe, John Stringer Collection)

Delivery dates for AEC chassis were a problem though since the company had a full order book and was heavily committed to turning out the RT variant for London Transport. Park Royal had set up a special factory to build bodies for the RT but was having difficulty getting them into production, and in the end RT chassis were piling up everywhere and causing a problem. The decision was taken to offer some of these chassis to provincial operators, and as a result Halifax were offered eight in place of half of the sixteen standard models intended for bodying by Roe, which was gladly accepted in order to obtain an earlier delivery. Despite the superiority of their teak-framed bodies, surprisingly withdrawal of both versions commenced as early as 1958, and all were gone by 1963, except for conventional Regent 215 (ACP 629) which had become Training Bus 412 in 1959, lasting until 1966. A further pair of similar vehicles (73/74, BCP 536/537) – replacing a cancelled order for two Regals no longer required – was delivered in 1949, having subtle differences to the earlier ones such as slightly more rounded window corners and a one-piece rear emergency window instead of the previous two. This pair lasted until 1966.
In the absence of a useable 1960’s period photo of any of these, here is the official Roe view of what was to become Training Bus 412, prior to delivery in 1948 as 215 – complete with the impressive JOC transfers and gold-shaded fleet numbers, and the additional black lining to the upper saloon waistrail band which was discontinued in the early 1950’s.

373 (BCP 667), AEC Regent III 9612E / Park Royal H33/26R new 1950 as 273.

Though Park Royal offered an excellent steel-framed body, in order to keep costs down a timber-framed composite version was specified. This was largely based on their wartime utility design with the more curved frontal profile of the metal version, but with a rear end that owed more to prewar practice. Though a price had been quoted by Park Royal for these bodies it was subject to a ‘rise and fall’ clause – and rise it did ! Before long the figure had increased considerably, so in order to keep to something near the original quote economies had to be made. Hence metal window pans were dispensed with and the glasses mounted directly into the now exposed, spindly wooden frames, being retained by wood fillets as one would with a garden shed ! This was to be their downfall, and deterioration set in rapidly, necessitating remedial strengthening after only a few years, and continual problems therafter. Sixteen of them (235-250) for the JOC fleet were built to eight feet width, taking advantage of the limited relaxation in the use of such vehicles on routes approved by the Traffic Commissioners – in Halifax’s case these were those to Brighouse, Hebden Bridge, Huddersfield and Queensbury.
By the mid-1960’s all of the earlier ones had gone, and just three of the eight-footers (originally 246-248, but by then 346-348, AJX 372-374) survived until 1965, along with the final 1950 batch (originally 270-283, now 370-383, BCP 664-677). Despite the fragility of their bodywork they were otherwise good, if creeky, performers and ideally suited to intensive stop-start work in the mountainous local terrain.
Here 373 rests in Elmwood Garage – the premises across the road from the Department’s Skircoat Road Garage – opened in 1932 to specifically house the JOC fleet.

373 (BCP 667)

Another view of 373 returning from the appropriately named Steep Lane – out on the edge of the moors beyond the hilltop village of Sowerby. Having just passed through King Cross in the background, it is at the point where King Cross Road becomes King Cross Street for the last descent into town. It had not much longer to serve, being withdrawn and sold for scrap in 1966.

277 (BCP 671) AEC Regent III 9612E / Park Royal H33/26R new 1950 as 277.

The rest were withdrawn and scrapped during 1966/67, but 377 was given a reprieve and fared rather better. The Transport Department was due to reach its 75th Anniversary in 1973, but General Manager Geoff Hilditch, anticipating that changes were afoot and fearing that it might not last until then, decided instead to celebrate the 70th Anniversary in 1968. Arrangements were made with the local Charity Gala committee that their annual parade through the town should be substantially augmented with an impressive display of vintage transport. To that end he retained 377 and had it repainted, renumbered back to the original 277 using original gold shaded transfers, and had the last two remaining earlier-style JOC transfers applied featuring the LMS and LNER railway devices either side of the Corporation’s coat-of-arms. Local enthusiasts had expected that the Department would then retain 277 in preservation, but Hilditch had no such intention and soon afterwards it was sold to Tony Blackman who at the present time has not only owned it for 47 years, but refurbished it yet again and returned it for occasional operation in service both with his former Halifax Joint Committee local service venture, and nowadays with his Yorkshire Heritage Buses private hire operation. Here it is seen shortly after repainting as 277, having passed Skircoat Garage (note the adjoining Manager’s house) and turning towards Elmwood Garage.

258 (BCP 544) AEC Regal III 9621E / Roe B33F, new as 269 in 1949

There were 24 of these bonny Roe-bodied Regal III’s ordered for delivery – five for the Corporation fleet and 19 for the JOC. In the event before their construction commenced two of the Corporation ones were deemed to be no longer required and they were cancelled and replaced by a pair of additional Regent III’s with Roe bodies.
Following the successful operation of one-man-operated, full-sized single deckers in neighbouring Huddersfield and consequent changes in legislation, Halifax JOC had introduced a limited OMO operation on the Hebden Bridge-Cragg Vale or Hardcastle Crags, and Elland-Sowerby Bridge-Triangle services during 1953, and around the same time was reintroducing local Countryside Tours during the public holiday periods. Consequently they rebuilt 14 of the Regals to B33F layout for this purpose, and repainted them in a special livery of cream with a single orange band. Two of the Corporation Regals were withdrawn as early as 1958 and passed to McConnachie’s of Campbelltown out on the Mull of Kintyre. The third survived as a spare – used often as a staff bus – until 1962, the unrebuilt JOC ones also going at the same time. The cream and orange-liveried converted ones in the meantime had reverted back to standard livery, and withdrawal came in 1963/64 – except for the one pictured which after a few months in the Corporation fleet as 99, returned to the JOC as 268 (269 having by then been used for a new Leopard), soon becoming 258 in order to allow for another new Leopard (268). A great favourite with local enthusiasts – almost regarded as a mascot – it finally passed for use by a local builder for staff transport in 1966, being scrapped by 1970. Here it is awaiting its next spell of duty parked in Bay 7 at Skircoat Garage.

80 (CCP 612) AEC Regent III 9613E / Park Royal H30/26R new as 360 in 1951.

Six more Park Royal-bodied Regent III’s entered the fleet in 1951, but these were different beasts altogether from the previous examples. Part of a later order placed by GM Freddie Cook, along with another for six rather exotic and sadly problematic Daimler CD650’s with East Lancashire bodies which had gone by 1962. The Regents were to the revised dimensions of 27 feet by eight feet wide and their bodywork was to Park Royal’s latest four-bay, metal-framed design, introduced at the 1950 Commercial Motor Show on an example for Morecambe & Heysham. The styling was closely inspired by that of the London RT, though in reality was very different under the skin. They were considerably heavier than their predecessors, weighing in at well over eight tons, and though extremely soundly constructed there was some reduction in performance – especially in their ability to move off up hills. These coincided with AEC’s redesign of the exhaust system which resulted in them having a characteristic, raucous growl – 80 being acknowledged as the growliest ! Withdrawn in 1966, all six passed to Green Bus Service of Rugeley, and were scrapped in 1970.
Here 80 is pictured still looking in fine fettle not long before its withdrawal, growling up Gibbet Street from the Town Centre on the local route 13 to Highroad Well, following the original tram route of 1898, though it would terminate a couple of hundred yards beyond the old tram terminus by performing an awkward reverse into a narrow lane by the Brown Cow Inn. By this time the Highroad Well service was linked across town to the Mixenden circular routes 11 to 14.

90 (DCP 834) Daimler CVG6 / Roe H33/28R, new in 1954. (Photo – John Stringer)

Following the tragic sudden death at an early age of Manager Freddie Cooke, Scot Roddy MacKenzie took the helm and chose to purchase Daimlers. The Corporation received twelve CVG6’s (87-98, DCP 831-842) fitted with fully teak-framed Roe bodies. With these, MacKenzie introduced a revised and simplified version of the livery more in the style of contemporary Glasgow buses, and also the ‘Scottish’ style of destination box aperture. The new livery was generally unpopular – especially when applied to older vehicles and as soon as MacKenzie departed during 1956 – but before his replacement arrived – the Assistant Engineer conspired with the paintshop foreman to have them all repainted quickly back into the traditional style ! Another feature introduced with these was a brighter interior, with a lighter and more modern fawn and green seating moquette in the lower saloon, and the interior woodwork having a varnished light oak finish. The latter proved popular and was quickly applied to the majority of the existing postwar vehicles by means of scumbling, whereby the existing dark woodwork was repainted in a white basecoat, then a coloured varnish-like substance was applied to which an imitation woodgrain effect was skilfully added with a special tool. In fact there was quite an enthusiastic frenzy of light oak scumbling, it being applied to much of the office interiors and furniture. Even in the early 2000’s the writer had the use of an old metal filing cabinet in the Training School still finished in that way ! Weighing not far short of eight tons these buses were quickly found to be seriously underpowered with their Gardner 6LW engines, and with the arrival of new manager Dick Le Fevre and his Leyland-buying policy it was decided to re-engine them with Leyland O600’s. This gave them a moderate boost, not to mention some very unusual sound effects – gone was the monotonous Gardner throb, replaced by a rather subdued huskyness. In 1961 93 was fitted with a supercharged Daimler CD6 engine, producing an even more unusual sound effect, and in 1964 95 was treated to a mighty Gardner 6LX – resulting in a most impressive performance. Daimler-engined 93 was the first to go in 1968, the rest following in 1970/71.

Here 90 returns along Orange Street on the short local service 17 from Ovenden Way, still showing the outbound destination. Behind is the former Brunswick Bowling Alley – opened by ‘Coronation Street’ actress Pat Phoenix in 1964, but closed in 1969 after which it became a Presto (later Netto) supermarket. Demolished in 2009 the site has recently been redeveloped as a leisure and restaurant complex.

292 (DCP 845) Daimler CVG6 / Metro-Cammell H33/26R, new as 286 in 1954

The JOC received ten CVG6’s (284-293, DCP 843-852), but unlike the Roe-bodied ones for the Corporation these featured Metro-Cammell (MCCW) bodies. These were of the Orion lightweight, metal-framed design introduced in 1952, but despite being more than half a ton lighter than their heavyweight Roe-bodied counterparts in the Corporation fleet, they were quoted at the time as being ‘a more substantial version’ of the super lightweight Orion then popular. 287 received an experimental supercharged Gardner 6LW for a while in 1958, but otherwise they retained the Gardner engines through out their lives. Renumbered 390-399 in 1962, they became (confusingly) 290-299 in 1964. Withdrawal took place in 1967/68, four passing to Derby Corporation and lasting until 1969. Here 292 is parked in the corner of Elmwood Garage alongside Regent III 375.

291 (DCP 844) Daimler CVG6 / Metro-Cammell H33/26R, new as 285 in 1954

Another of the ‘Met-Cams’ is pictured here returning from the Ovenden area passing through the extensive Dean Clough Mills complex of carpet manufacturer John Crossley & Sons – by far Halifax’s largest employer of people within the town. It is ascending Corporation Street where it would within a few seconds pass the former Seedlings Mount Brewery of Richard Whittaker & Son – famous for its ‘Cock O’the North’ and ‘Shire’ Ales – before entering the town centre. The destination ‘6 West End’ is inappropriate here, it being likely that the bus is returning ‘private’ from somewhere and the crew have already set the destination for the next journey. Shortly after Le Fevre replaced MacKenzie as GM in 1956, this particular vehicle – then 285 – was briefly turned out in an experimental ‘upside down’ livery with the areas of orange and green reversed. This did not meet the Committee’s or the general public’s approval and it quickly reverted to normal.

290 (DCP 843) Daimler CVG6 / Metro-Cammell H33/26R, new as 284 in 1954

Another of the ‘Met Cams’, passes through King Cross on its way to Tuel Lane, which is just beyond the Halifax boundary in the steeply graded upper reaches of Sowerby Bridge. Immediately after passing the cameraman the road forks – the left fork down into the Calder Valley bottom at Sowerby Bridge, the right a more level road along the side of the valley towards Hebden Bridge and Todmorden. 290 would take the left fork, but just beyond the borough boundary half way down the valley side would take a severe right turn along Park Road and Beech Road thorough the steeply graded streets of densely packed terraced houses to the north of Sowerby Bridge, then climb the upper section of the incredibly steep Tuel Lane, terminating in a back street near the top. This would be a particular challenge for a 6LW-engined Daimler, which did not quite have sufficient power for such terrain.

117 (GJX 329) Daimler CVG6 / Roe H37/28R, new as 17 in 1956.

The last vehicles ordered by Roddy MacKenzie before he moved on was for a further five Daimler CVG6’s with Roe bodies for the Corporation fleet. Delivered shortly after Dick Le Fevre took over, and replacing the last of the prewar Regents, they featured the latest version of the Roe body, having a traditional teak-framed lower deck with an alloy-framed upper deck and weighing around six hundredweights less than their previous all-teak predecessors. The destination layout was revised to something similar to the ‘pre-MacKenzie’ deliveries, and they were in traditional livery. Delivered as 15-19 (GJX 327-331) they were soon renumbered 115-119. In 1971 they were transferred to the JOC to replace the short-lived and much later Dennis Lolines, and even taking their numbers as 300-304. 300 & 301 were withdrawn in 1972, but the others lasted a little longer to be renumbered yet again as 382-384 to make way for new Fleetlines. 382 & 383 departed in 1973, but 384 survived long enough to pass to to the West Yorkshire PTE in 1974, theoretically becoming their 3384, though it never carried that number. Soon afterwards it passed into preservation and was eventually recertified for PSV use, and is to be seen regularly at local rallies. Here it is seen parked on the steam-clean ramp behind Skircoat Garage, carrying what was then a recent innovation – advertising.

117 (GJX 329)

117 again on what must have been a hazy but warm summer’s day judging by the wide open windscreen, turning left out of Hall Street on the fringe of the town centre into Gibbet Street heading for Highroad Well on the cross-town route 12 from Mixenden – closely followed by a Lambretta motor scooter. In the background, north of the town centre, is the mass of Beacon Hill which provides a towering backdrop to the town, with the prominent but isolated Beacon House on the top.

All photographs by Roger Cox unless otherwise stated.

Text by John Stringer.

Part Two, click here

Shearings Coaches

Following on from my previous W Pyne & Son Starbeck article.

My Father joined Shearings in Easter 1965 covering the Bournemouth tour and driving a new Bedford VAL. This coach was one of 20 purchased from Plaxtons Scarborough, I did have a photo of all these coaches lined up on Marine Drive but unfortunately I Have misplaced it. His Bedford Val was fitted with a Leyland O.400 diesel engine reason being Bedfords own 466 was still being developed and not yet in production. The small front twin steer 16 inch wheels proved to be very popular with passengers giving such a smooth comfortable ride. The Val design was a credit to Bedford design team as was the later YRT chassis fitted with a centrally mounted horizontal 466 later 500 Turbo engine. One is bound to wonder that should these brilliant designers being given a free hand with good backing financial support to develop a robust chassis to compete with foreign manufactures such as Volvo, Daf Mercedes, Scania,Etc, Bedford could still be in business! So sad!!
Malcolm Wray son of Andrew Wray based at Dacre Banks rejoined the business and was fortunate that Deregulation of the bus industry allowed small operators such as Longsters of Pateley, Simpsons and Clarks of Ripon, Murgatroyds and Burtons of Fellbeck, Beecrofts of Fewston and Dodsworths of Minskip all benefited by advertising their own tours either at home or continental.
Malcolm was very lucky in that James Herriott (Alf White) the vet wrote some best selling books mainly about his experience visiting farms in the beautiful Yorkshire Dales when he decided to advertise the James Herriot tour. It was an immediate success, he gave the commentary while his fellow Director did the driving there was such a tremendous demand, coaches running to capacity and after having to buy second hand coaches and being dependent on West Yorkshire and Wallace Arnold for seasonal work he was able to purchase top spec coaches from Plaxtons and Duple for the Ford R series and Volvo B10 m s( photo attached). The fleet was kept busy with local and continental tours. Volvos especially,, were very popular totally reliable capable of constant high speed motorway, fitted with air suspension, double glazing, tv toilet, etc.
Malcolm and his brother in law were both very shrewd business men and having taken over Pynes they kept the bottom garage and the Low Harrogate booking office.
They had for many years covered numerous school contracts collecting children from up the Dales and delivering them safely to various schools in the Harrogate area. This could be quite a challenge dependant on the weather especially in winter, nevertheless guaranteed them a regular income. Around the mid 1950 s the government relaxed the speed limit applicable to HGV s increasing this from 20 Mph to presumably 30 MPH,, and up till then general hauliers did everything in their power to keep lorries under the 3 ton U/W, to the extent of specifying different tyres, removing passenger seats, tools etc. Any vehicle exceeding the 3 ton limit had to display a 20 MPH sign approx. 6inch in Dia in Black. Nowadays drivers would find it so unbelievable to see large HGV s trundling along at 20 MPH!
Another point of interest was the opening of the first motorway designated the M6 in the Preston by pass. area in 5/ 12/ 1958, the designer Mr Lord soon suffered some bad press reports as it soon became evident that this motorway soon began to break up. This was unfair as no one could ever had anticipated heavy lorries travelling at speed some of which had badly designed axle loading thus creating more stress on the road surface. Hauliers soon had to face another problem, ie vehicles constantly suffering engine and transmission failures advising drivers to avoid using the Motorway whenever possible. This proved to be the decline of our heavy vehicle manufactures , Atkinson.Seddon, Leyland, Foden, ERF. Guy, AEC, etc fell by the roadside simply because our manufacturers had never had the experience of operating on the continental autobahn.
Drivers quickly persuaded management to invest in the popular HGVs.Vo Mercedes, Scania. Daf s, etc s all fitted with comfortable Sleeper cabs, night heaters, sound proofing etc.
If I may stand corrected re the article about Bob Pantry and his son Jeff having had a garage at Dacre Banks this is not so. Bob a real gentleman was employed by Wrays Coaches as their fitter. Prior to that he had worked in a similar capacity for Yorks Electricity board. He had also worked at Pynes and finally started his own business on Camwal Road Starbeck. Sadly he passed away some years ago leaving Jeff to carry on the business. Strangely his garage is almost opposite Pynes bus garage which is now owned by a local brewery. Having lost contact with Jeff I finally met up with him recently and was saddened to hear Jeff had reluctantly had to part with his and Bobs pride and joy a single deck Bristol ex Lincoln corporation. They had spent many hours restoring this bus but lack of storage unfortunately meant it had to go. However Jeff had also owned a( possibly) 29 seater Bedford coach painted in Pynes colours.Jeff kindly gave me a photo of Greengrass(from Heartbeat fame) reputably showing him driving this Bedford. Unfortunately this Bedford had also to go! Having met Jeff it suddenly struck me while listening to his experiences he would also have such a great story to tell and I hope he will consider sitting down and recording his for the benefit of all us enthusiasts.
I have my Son Ian to thank for drawing my attention to Pynes, I’m so thankful he did so. Had he not done so it is quite possible all the photos (which can be seen at this link) and details would have maybe never come to light!
Also I have been so very proud of my Father, he always enjoyed his career travelling along many roads bringing pleasure to countless clients, driving safely and been trusted with handling some top quality coaches.

Keith Todd
08/2014

Chiltern Queens – Tilling-Stevens K6LA7 – DBW 66

Chiltern Queens - Tilling-Stevens K6LA7 - DBW 66
Copyright Ray Soper

Chiltern Queens of Woodcote
1948
Tilling-Stevens K6LA7
Vincent C33F

This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled "Chiltern Queens of Woodcote" click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.


Hi, I have always lived in Eltham, SE London and clearly remember in 1959/60 travelling on a Tilling Stevens coach then operated by Cliffs Coaches of Eltham. I remember being so impressed with the unusual ‘whistling’ noise on the overrun that I was determined to find out what make it was. I was 10 or 11 at the time and already a London bus and trolleybus fanatic. The coach was full-fronted, but had a full width bulkhead and I later surmised it had been ‘modernised’ with the full front. It had a Tilling Stevens badge however. I never recorded the reg. number I’m afraid, but is there anyone else who remembers this vehicle ?

Ernie Jupp


17/01/13 – 15:25

With reference to the identity of the TSM owned by Cliff’s of Eltham, there were in fact two:
MXU 387 TSM L4MA8 (9820) bodied by Gurney Nutting FC37F new to Cliff’s in 1952 and sold to Valedene Coaches, Sutton Valence, Kent in December 1961
NXL 15 TSM L4MA8 (9838) bodied by Duple (Vega style) FC37F new to Cliff’s in 1953 and sold to Callaghan, London N1 by September 1962.
I went to school in Sidcup from 1958 to 1964 and remember being mightily impressed by a ride to and from the London Motor Cycle show on one of Cliff’s first two Thames Trader/Duple Yeoman C41F reg. 559 and 560 RPC.

Chris Ellis


18/01/13 – 06:08

This 1948 coach was acquired with the Kemp’s business in 1955. It is a Tilling-Stevens K6LA7 with Vincent of Reading C33F Coachwork. It was withdrawn in 1963.

Philip Lamb


15/05/13 – 07:31

I was interested in the comment about Cliff’s of Eltham having a full-front Tilling-Stevens L6MA7 with Meadows engine.
I recall a trip from Sevenoaks to Margate by Davis of Sevenoaks in 1955 or 1956. The refreshment stop on the way home was at Molash.
I recall seeing a passing full-front coach sounding quite unlike anything I had heard before and saw the Tilling-Stevens badge as it went by. Could that have been the one from Cliff’s (presumably the Gurney-Nutting one as I think I would have noticed the Duple variety)?

John Humphrey


15/05/13 – 15:23

This might qualify as nitpicking, but technically the bodywork on Tilling Stevens Express Mk 2s (the model with chassis codes beginning with "L") should be described as "C37F" etc rather than "FC37F". The model was designed from the outset as a fully fronted vehicle in the same way as the Bedford SB, Commer Avenger, Guy Otter, or Seddon Mk 4/6. Does anybody know how many Express Mk 2s were built? They were pretty rare.

Neville Mercer


16/05/13 – 06:34

I don’t know how the total of Express Mk II’s built after the war, Neville, but their largest order was for 158 chassis, built in 1947/1948 for export to Hong Kong (China Motor Bus (108) & Kowloon Motor Bus (50))

Chris Hebbron


16/05/13 – 13:58

Further to Neville’s comments, I have a picture of a L4MA8 (4DC engine) which was owned by Trumans of Shirebrook. The body was C37F and it was virtually same as the Bedford SB style except for a different grille and higher build. It too was described incorrectly by the PSV Circle as FC37F. It was registered UNO 880 and was new to Edwards of Rainham. It was operated briefly by East Midland when they took over Trumans.

Chris Barker


20/05/13 – 07:15

I’m extremely grateful to Chris Ellis and the other correspondents for the info. on the Cliff’s Tilling Stevens coaches. I can safely say that ‘my’ ride would have been on the earlier Gurney Nutting bodied coach as I was quite familiar with the more common Duple bodied coaches. Was the whistling on over-run typical ?
The trip described was a school trip to the wonderful Geffrye Museum in Shoreditch, and I indulged myself spotting trolleybuses passing on the 543/643, 647 and 649 services. There seemed to be at least one per minute in each direction – heaven !

Ernie Jupp

Altonian Coaches – Tilling Stevens – GOU 732

GOU 732_lr
Copyright Roger Cox

Altonian Coaches
1949
Tilling Stevens K6LA7
Scottish Aviation C33F

The Chiltern Queens gallery contributed from Ray Soper has recently included references to the former Altonian Tilling Stevens. GOU 732 is a Tilling Stevens K6LA7 with a Scottish Aviation C33F body that was delivered to Altonian Coaches in 1949. The engine is a Gardner 6LW. It is seen here in the summer of 1970 in the rather startling Altonian livery.

One wonders if this vehicle gave SELNEC PTE the "inspiration" (how the English language lends itself to irony) for its grotesque orange/white livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


20/10/11 – 06:50

Would you call it "Burnt Umber" and Cream?
SELNEC was just Orange and White!

Joe


20/10/11 – 06:51

Bizarre to see this posting. Altonian went under two or three years ago and the bones and entrails were divided between Wheelers of Southampton and Orange Coach Travel of Aldershot. By that time Altonian had an uninspired overall orange livery – identical with Orange C T – and the vehicles fitted in easily.
The legacy to Orange C T included two Neoplan Cityliners on Dennis Javelin GX chassis – perhaps the most unreliable vehicles operated by either operator.
[I am the occasional standby part-timer at Orange C T!]

David Oldfield


20/10/11 – 08:24

…and which is the door?! It looks as if it had a centre door, but this now has a sliding ventilator: in front of this it all looks very flush but there’s some gear at the bottom…

Joe


20/10/11 – 08:47

Maybe I’m just gaudy but I thought the Altonian colour scheme looked nice! That bright apricot and cream would have cheered up many a dull day…but the styling does seem to be a little bit of a mismash with those low set headlights and drooping windscreen making the bus look sad but friendly. I wonder how long it survived after the modifications to the entrance began to fail!

Richard Leaman


20/10/11 – 11:46

The good news is that GOU 732 survives in preservation. The last time I saw it (and rode on it!) was at a Heart of the Pennines running day quite a while ago and at that point it was painted in a fictional "Wulfrun Motor Services" livery of green and yellow. Does anybody know of any other preserved Tilling-Stevens PSVs from the post-war period? I seem to remember that there was a Plaxton bodied Express Mk II in preservation at one point. This was the mosel which received similar bodywork to Bedford SBs rather than a half-cab layout.

Neville Mercer


20/10/11 – 15:49

Yes, had a ride on this at the 2010 Kingsbridge 7 foot 6 inch running day, from Kingsbridge to Salcombe and back. It was in the fictitious Wulfrun livery. See the pictures below. As for this livery, it puts me in mind of the famous London Brighton and South Coast Railway loco livery, described (perhaps with tongue in cheek) as "Stroudley’s Improved Engine Green"!

Stephen Ford

Kingsbridge 022

Kingsbridge 042

Kingsbridge 043


21/10/11 – 06:34

Have those with children/grandchildren noticed that’s its actually Bertie the Bus, Thomas the Tank Engine’s friend! Anyway- thanks for the picture of the well-fitting door!

Joe


21/10/11 – 06:36

Roger has certainly got the hump over the SELNEC orange and white livery. While I admit it didn’t sit too well on the older half cabs, particularly where there was an exposed radiator, I thought it suited the newer rear engined vehicles quite well. On the basis that some of the other newly formed PTE’s simply adopted a variation of the livery of the largest operator, at least we in SELNEC land were spared Manchester’s ‘paint it all red’ livery!

Philip Halstead


21/10/11 – 06:37

The colours used for the "Wulfrun" livery are the same shades as the former Wolverhampton Corporation livery hence the name!

Chris Hough


21/10/11 – 10:08

I always thought that SELNEC/GMT Orange and Cream was by far the best new PTE livery. [What about the horrendous South Yorkshire Coffee and cream?] Of course Stockport Red and Cream, Salford Green and Rochdale and Ashton Blue were preferable – but they would never have had a look anyway.

David Oldfield


21/10/11 – 10:10

Tilling_Stevens_coach_lr

Here is a photo of another Tilling Stevens coach, after disposal to a showman, but whether it is a K6LA7 (Gardner) or K6MA7 (Meadows) I know not, though the 6LW is more likely. The bodywork looks like a Strachans design, and the registration LHW 152 is a Bristol area plate. I took this picture on Mitcham Common in 1961. Can our experts come up with more information?

Roger Cox


21/10/11 – 14:47

LHW 152 was issued in October 1948 by Bristol CC so when Roger took that picture the coach was not that old but I will be interested to know whom the original operator might have been. No doubt it was lost many years ago as it does not appear on the DVLA records.

Richard Leaman


24/10/11 – 11:56

My contacts in Bristol tell me that LHW 152 was new to A H Fielding (Empress Coaches) of Bristol, 4/49. TSM K6LA7, body is Strachan C33F.
Withdrawn by them 2/60 and sold to a showman (Hill), Gloucester. I must have seen it in my school days!

Geoff Kerr


25/10/11 – 07:26

The Hill’s were big showground folk in the South West and Billy Butlin wed one of them before he launched his first holiday camp at Skegness.

Chris Hebbron


26/10/11 – 06:04

Geoff..thank you for the information. I recall Empress Coaches very well but not that particular coach. I also remember the Showman, Hills and am sure they used to hold circus shows around the Bristol area. The coach is most unlikely to have survived much into the 1970’s at best I suppose.

Richard Leaman


23/04/12 – 06:00

GOU was at the King Alfred Running Day in Winchester a few years ago. The owner was telling me the livery is that of Wolverhampton corporation, applied in the style he thought they would have used had they gone in for coaches.

Pete Davies


06/11/12 – 13:48

GOU 732_lr

I took this 20 odd years ago at the Outer Circle Rally (itself long defunct). I do not think it was very long after it was rebuilt and repainted from the old Altonian livery. It looked superb, but if it was like the other Scottish Aviation body that came to our body shop it must have been a real labour of love by Mr. Harris.

David Gladwin


06/11/12 – 15:29

David-do not wish your life away the Outer Circle photo was taken between 1998 and 2000. The fictional Wulfrun livery was applied in either 98 or 99.
The vehicle is to be used to celebrate 90th anniversary of Wolverhampton trolleybuses in 2013 as they had TS initially and a TS coach in corporation livery is the nearest anyone is going to get to re-enactment

Roger Burdett


15/11/12 – 16:42

First, what a super website, I only found this by accident. The TS, I believe, also spent some time with Classic Coaches of Wombourne, Staffs.
I remember seeing this some years back dropping school children off in Kingswinford! I very much doubt if they realised just what a classic coach they were travelling on.

William Parker


02/05/14 – 08:13

The vehicle broke down last year on the way to the Wolverhampton event – fuel starvation and problems with the auto vac. It happened again on the way back from Statfold Barn Railway in March. Since then Roger has been working hard to sort out this problem and hopefully it will now be present at Wythall running day on May 4th.

Ken Jones


02/05/14 – 10:22

To make this magnificent Tilling-Stevens even uniquer (that’ll get the language purists going!) it has a 6-speed David Brown gearbox, replacing the original 5-speeder. Unless it’s been changed back since.

Ian T


02/05/14 – 15:15

Ian it still has a 6 speed DB Box but a different one than previously as the old one wore out the gear collar in 5th

Roger Burdett


06/09/15 – 07:05

I remember this TS well as it was my daily transport to school in the late 1970’s into the early 80’s. Recalled from the withdrawn from service row of old coaches kept at the Altonian Coaches depot (Warrens Transport) renovated and put back into service, this was mostly driven by Guy Warren. There was another coach of similar style in the row but this disappeared along with the six wheeler Duple bodied. The TS always had a door at the front and as far as I recall, had green upholstery. Little known is its appearance in the St Trinians movie ‘The Belles of St Trinians’ (1955). It always wore the Altonian colours of orange/cream which looked the part in the 70’s !!

Anon


GOU 732_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


07/10/15 – 06:25

It still has green upholstery.
Looking at David Gladwin comment the body is aluminium framed and has required minimal work to keep it functional.
Issue has been a sticking autovac despite being renewed which means you sometimes have to clump it to keep fuel flowing.
The vehicle is next scheduled to be at Rallies in 2017

Roger Burdett

R Preston of Ferryhill – Tilling Stevens Express – DPT 24

R. Preston of Ferryhill - Tilling Stevens - DPT 24
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

R Preston of Ferryhill (County Durham)
193?/4? – 1938
Tilling Stevens Express
Plaxton C32F

Here is a photo of what I think is a Tilling Stevens Express, the body seems to be a Plaxton D2 pattern job which would date it to the late 1930s early 40s. We did a partial reframe of one – ugh, never forgotten the back was rotten where the sunshine roof drains had long since perished. But if the chassis is an Express then this would surely be a rebody I think. At the time of the photograph this vehicle is being operated by R. Preston on, I suspect, miner’s contract work, the condition is about right for miner’s trucks. I don’t think for a second that the vehicle was new to R Preston but I have no history of its earlier life.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Gladwin


09/11/12 – 07:52

The Durham registration DPT would date this bus to 1938.

Geoff Kerr


09/11/12 – 07:52

The radiator shape, slightly narrower and shorter than the post war variety (which was also slightly curved), suggests that this is probably a petrol engined H39A7 vehicle that was produced from about 1935 up to the cessation of wartime production. The body I cannot identify for certain, but it has definitely seen better days than the one on which the photo was taken.

Roger Cox


09/11/12 – 13:08

I’m pretty sure that this is a Plaxton D3 body. In the Venture Publishing book on Plaxton by Stewart J. Brown, there is a picture of an unidentified D3 on a Leyland Tiger chassis which has all the same features – including the distinctive, heavily arched cab and emergency door window tops, window layout, side flashes, and of course the characteristic shape of the destination boxes. It states that the design appeared towards the end of 1937.

John Stringer


27/02/13 – 06:06

TSM HA39A7, chassis number 8801, new in 5/38 to Coulson, Rushyford (part of the ABC consortium until 1946) with Plaxton C32F body. Passed to Preston, Ferryhill in 1948 and withdrawn 6/54. (Source: PSV Circle publication PA1: Durham District Services).

Dunelm

Portsmouth Corporation – Tilling-Stevens E60A6 – RV1147 – 84

Portsmouth Corporation - Tilling-Stevens E60H6 - RV1147 - 84
Copyright G E Baddeley

Portsmouth Corporation
1932
TSM (Tilling-Stevens) E60A6
English Electric H26/24R

CPPTD lent seven TSM’s and three Leyland TD1’s to supplement the shortage of LPTB’s vehicles. Parked at the Red Deer pub, Croydon, alongside two Ford Y’s and an Austin 14, Portsmouth Corporation’s TSM (Tilling-Stevens) E60A6 is very much on foreign territory, in Surrey. At the very end of its sojourn in London, between October 1940 and March 1941, it’s part of a restful scene in an otherwise turbulent time, with the Blitz in full spate. The low-angled sunlight shows up the lining-out and city crest a treat! Also showing up is the garage/running number plate just below the front downstairs window, the empty holders of which identified many London helpers to the day they were scrapped! Note the absence of anti-blast netting on the windows. It’s on route 12 which, at the other end, reached Oxford Circus. It was probably based at Croydon Garage, a mere 100 yards from the Red Deer, both still existing, although the garage has been re-built.
She got about in London, for I’ve seen a photo of her at Golders Green, too!
CPPTD bought ten of these petrol-engine’d vehicles, with vee-front English Electric bodies, in 1932, numbered 78-87. Two were destroyed in 1941, in Portsmouth, the rest being withdrawn in 1944 (4) , 1946 (1) , 1947 (2) and 1948 (1). Maybe the delivery of nine Daimler CWA6’s enabled them to withdraw the first four, but, with the pressures on buses in this year on other local operators, this is surprising and mysterious. We shall never know now.
All ten buses were lucky, for they were returned to Pompey on 13/14 March 1941, just after Eastney Depot was bombed on the 10th, destroying ten buses!

Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron Photo copyright G E Baddeley


19/11/12 – 08:14

It seems that these buses were lucky twice over, Chris. If they left Croydon Garage (TC) in March 1941, they escaped the devastating damage caused in May 1941 when the depot was hit during the Blitz and caught fire, causing a number of casualties. See:- www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk These TSM double deckers carried the Leyland clone style of radiator adopted in 1931 to replace the antiquated shape worn by the B10 Express. The wheelbase was 13ft. 4½ ins., and the six cylinder 6.972 litre petrol engine (apparently designed in part by Harry Ricardo) developed 109 bhp at 2500 rpm, driving through a four speed crash gearbox. Among the antiquated features carried over from earlier models was the central accelerator pedal, which some manufacturers, Crossley and Dennis being others, seemed curiously reluctant to abandon. The TSM double decker was not a success, with Walsall, Birmingham and Benfleet & District (which soon became part of Westcliff-on-Sea) among the few purchasers in addition to Portsmouth.

Roger Cox


19/11/12 – 10:30

13ft 4½ins seems very short for the wb. though, considering 16ft for contemporary Regents et al (or around that figure anyway).
What I find truly fascinating about this photo is the English Electric body! This style must beat all records when it comes to the amount of different chassis upon which it was placed, from its 1932-6 existence! I cannot think of a Thornycroft version, or, of course, a Bristol, but all the rest of the contemporary competition had examples. Please correct me if I have missed anything!

John Whitaker


19/11/12 – 12:52

That was a bad bombing, Roger. I found an associated link with a photo of the results – see //goo.gl/giEwB. Croydon was a Tilling Garage pre-1933 and hosted many Tilling STL’s, one of which can be seen as a casualty! Thx for the additional information. I wish I knew what the TSM model codes meant; sadly, your information sheds no light on the codes.
Your observation is correct, John W, about the versatile EE body. although it always seemed to grace more Leyland chassis than most others, but that may be a faulty observation!

Chris Hebbron


20/11/12 – 05:19

I think that you are correct, John. The wheelbase figure I gave came from a piece written by Geoff Hilditch many years ago, but I think that it might well be a misprint for 15ft 4½ins. The contemporary original 661 Regent had a wheelbase of 15ft 6½ins.

Chris, I hesitate to be pedantic on this – I have gleaned this info from various sources over the years and am open to correction, but the chassis codes for TSM/Tilling Stevens seem to be based on the following formula:-

First letter = Model type number, this case E

Second group = Engine power (petrol) or manufacturer/no. of cylinders (diesel), which here should probably be the figure 60.
Possibly this reflected the old RAC rating, which was really a measure of engine capacity rather than power.

Third letter = Vehicle purpose. A was the letter for a passenger chassis

Fourth number = wheelbase, 6 being the double deck wheelbase figure of around 15½ feet

Other TSM/Tilling Stevens chassis codes were the H type, as in Dave Gladwin’s posting of the Preston’s of Ferryhill coach, and the familiar ex Altonian K type, K6LA7, in which the ‘6L’stood for 6LW and the final 7 for a wheelbase of around 17½ feet. The later, 30 ft long, full fronted lightweight Express models with four cylinder Meadows engines were coded L4MA8, the last figure denoting a 18ft 7½ins wheelbase. There was also a shorter version of the Express II, with a Perkins P6 engine, the L6PA7. The 5LW powered short wheelbase 30 seater buses ordered by the China General Omnibus Co. which were diverted in wartime to the home market, and the very similar machines bought by the China Motor Bus Co. from 1948 were coded H5LA4 and K5LA4 respectively. The wheelbase on these appears to have been about 13½ feet.

Roger Cox


20/11/12 – 15:19

Thanks for that information Roger, I’ve often wondered too because Notts & Derby had a batch of five double deckers in 1932, coded D60A6, so I imagine they would have been quite similar to the ones above, presumably petrol engines were standard at that time. Was a diesel version offered, if so, what form was it? In spite of them being regarded as not successful, some of them seem to have achieved good service lives, the Notts & Derby ones ran for thirteen years, although perhaps war was a factor in that.
I have a photo of an L4MA8 coach with a Duple body which looks very similar to a Bedford SB of the time (1952). What a shame production ended just as TSM were about to enter the ‘modern’ era!

Chris Barker


20/11/12 – 16:55

Your pedantry is very welcome, Roger, and sheds some light on the somewhat arcane coding system TSM used at that time. Incidentally, I believe that TSM reverted to the Tilling-Stevens name just before the war. Even in the post-war era of distress purchasing, they did not do well, their largest orders coming from Hong Kong; 108 to China Motor Bus and 50 to Kowloon Motor Bus (K5LA7), all delivered in 1947/8. This would make the latter like the Altonian vehicle, but with a Gardner 5LW engine. One of them is preserved.

Chris Hebbron


21/11/12 – 06:47

I believe the Notts and Derby batch were a serious bid by TSM to gain access to the Balfour Beatty Group, where tram abandonments were mooted. The composite Weymann bodies were virtually identical to the Mansfield "Regents" of 1932, which replaced the BB tram system there.
TSM never really recovered from the loss of business with the Tilling companies, with whom they shared some common ancestry, with Bristol becoming the standard "marque" after 1934. Several demonstrators had visited the Group in 1932/3, with no success.

John Whitaker


21/11/12 – 06:48

Roger, I understand that the third letter in Tilling Stevens/TSM vehicle designations stood for the location of the driving position: A denoting forward control and B denoting normal control. Hence the B9B and the B10B were normal control versions of the ‘Express’ B9A and B10A.

Michael Elliott


21/11/12 – 10:00

Yes, that sounds right, Michael. I have looked through all references to TSM/Tilling Stevens/Vulcan, including goods chassis, that I can find, and the only other letter that appears is the ‘B’ that you mention. If the ‘A’ stood for ‘passenger’, the B10B would not fit the scheme, so it must, as you say, denote the driving position. At last, we seemed to have cracked the code.

Roger Cox


21/11/12 – 12:53

Kept wondering what it was that makes this rare and handsome bus look so much newer than it really is, and it’s just occurred to me: the very low radiator and bonnet line!
Thanks to Chris for the posting and to Roger for the very full detail. With a spec like that, and issuing from such a respected stable, the chassis ought to have sold in good numbers, but like the Vulcan Emperor, the Morris-Commercial Dictator, the Thornycroft Daring and the pre-war Guy Arab it just seems to have faded away. Was it cost, or some unsuspected weakness…?

Ian Thompson


21/11/12 – 15:26

Ian, one valuable reference source of Tilling Stevens data is the article written by "Gortonian" (Geoffrey Hilditch, of course) in the old Buses magazine in its superior days of 45 years ago, and republished in his book "Looking at Buses". He states that the double decker’s six cylinder engine, though a new design, had only a four bearing crankshaft instead of the usual seven, and the friction surfaces of the clutch were not attached to either the driving or driven plates, a feature intended to ease maintenance but which didn’t actually work out too well in practice. The chassis retained some antiquated design features and, although this TSM was an advance on its forebears, it still compared unfavourably with the Titan and Regent. As we know, the Tilling Group had lost any interest, literally and financially, in the TSM concern by this date, and the firm found it extremely difficult to gain entry to other markets in the depressed ‘thirties. The low bonnet line is certainly commendable. Some contemporary manufacturers, such as Bristol and Dennis, adopted unnecessarily high bonnet levels apparently to give an impression of power. The pre war Dennis Lance with the very high set oval radiator was possibly the most extreme example of all. The Strachans bodied Aldershot and District Lances of 1937 had tiny cab windscreens, which, coupled with the high bonnet, must have severely limited the driver’s view.

Roger Cox


21/11/12 – 17:28

Others were the Sunbeam Pathan/Sikh (the latter an early posting of mine). I’d forgotten the Vulcan Emperor, of which a few were bought by Southport Corporation, more as support for a local business than for any other reason, I suspect! I’m sure a few were bought elsewhere, but can’t recall, off-hand. You’ve got to feel sorry for folk putting in all that work, to come to naught in the end! Bad period for business, what with the Wall Street crash et al. You’re right about the low radiator/bonnet line giving the TSM a modern look: Leyland TD1/2’s of the same period looked more antiquated, with their radiator shape.

Chris Hebbron


22/11/12 – 07:24

The Vulcan Emperor was certainly a rarity. A picture of Vulcan’s advertisement can be seen here:- www.flickr.com/photos/

Roger Cox


23/11/12 – 08:16

Chris B and John W mention five Notts & Derby TSM D60A6’s, with Weymann bodies, delivered in 1932 and lasting until 1945. Here is an artist’s impression of one: www.cooperline.com  from which it is noticeable that the radiator shell is subtly different. Nice looking vehicle, though.

Chris Hebbron


23/11/12 – 10:06

Nice one Chris!
From photos though, I cannot discern any difference.

John Whitaker


07/12/13 – 07:55

I am currently trawling through seemingly endless internet pages to find out as much as possible about Tilling Stevens machinery. Above, in the very first comment, I say that the wheelbase of the E60A6 was 13ft.4½ins., which is patently erroneous for a 26ft. long bus. John Whitaker quite rightly challenged this figure and suggested 16ft. as being more likely. The Commercial Motor for 21 July 1931 gives the figure of 16ft.1 inch, which also fits the final ‘6’ wheelbase code. John got it right!

Roger Cox


08/12/13 – 08:24

I shall very much look forward to the information you find about Tilling-Stevens/TSM when your ‘digging about’ comes to an end, Roger. The company has always fascinated me.

Rv 1143

In the meantime, I have found a good close-up photo of sister bus No. 80 (RV1143) in the Strand, London, on Express service 12. [Copyright W J Haynes].

Chris Hebbron


08/12/13 – 10:27

Me too Roger. I have always been fascinated by Tilling Stevens: Ever since our Bradford tram seaside "bungalow" was placed at Skipsea in 1948, right next to an ex-North Western single decker!
You mentioned Vulcan "Emperors", another fascinating rarity. Am I correct in thinking Glasgow had the most significant number of this make and type, or was the Southport batch the largest? I am trying to collect as much info. as I can on this subject, but apart from the Southport history published by the Leyland Society, there is very little to go on. Thanks for your efforts.

John Whitaker


08/12/13 – 15:43

Between us, we seem to have cracked the post 1930 chassis designation code, and I am sure that, once I have managed to cobble together some information, our collaborative efforts will eventually unravel the details of earlier types. I am fascinated by this splendid picture, Chris. These buses must have been pretty rare subjects for the transport photographer, so every example is very welcome. What was Express Service 12? Did Portsmouth hold some express road service licences, or was this a wartime picture of an LPTB operation? I note that the front wings are painted white which might suggest the latter, but I can’t read the destination. The terminals of the old route 12 were Croydon and Hendon, though no buses operated the entire length; the route was run in overlapping sections. Did the LPTB run some express sections over established routes in wartime?

Roger Cox


08/12/13 – 18:13

Thanks for the photo, Chris H. English Electric bodywork of this era is another subject "close to my heart", and Pompey was a mecca!
On the PCT theme, is it not strange that Portsmouth escaped the massive bus damage which was inflicted on so many other Luftwaffe targets? No utility trolleybuses were necessary, and only the (6?) Duple CWA6s?

John Whitaker


09/12/13 – 09:23

John W – Vulcan also built bus bodies and some 40 or so were ordered by Birmingham Corporation on AEC Renown Chassis in 1930 and one on a solitary Crossley Condor in 1932. I have a photo of one of the Renowns (424) with badly mangled Vulcan body which I would have assessed as a write-off, yet it was not disposed of until 1945 (Peter Gould). I also had one of a damaged Southport Vulcan somewhere, too, and an advert for them. You are welcome to use them if you wish. They also trialled an Emperor in 1930. Of course, Tilling-Stevens took over Vulcan if memory serves, didn’t they?

Roger C – I notice that Birmingham Corporation took a number of T-S TTA1/2/TS3 with Tilling and LGOC bodies in 1914, then bought some more TS3’s in 1915 and bodied them with bodies taken off some pre-war Daimler chassis requisitioned by the War Dept. in 1914! They also trialled a demonstrator T-S TS3 in 1923 and a C60A6 in 1931, but it came to naught.

Roger/John – Yes, the bus is in Whitehall. I can find nothing on LPTB EXPRESS route 12, save that it appeared to operate only for the duration of the loan of these vehicles, detailed above. The destination box is blank. However, looking at the original of 84 at top of page, that, too, seems to show route 12 and is taken in Croydon, but no EXPRESS label is shown. At this time the other destination was Oxford Circus. The supposition that the route was part-EXPRESS or partly so, may well be correct.
The T-S in the lower photo bus worked out of Nunhead Garage, Peckham, opened, in 1911, by the National Steam Car Co Ltd, from where, ironically, bearing in mind the T-S petrol-electrics, operated another non-standard bus type, Clarkson steam buses, fired by paraffin!

Chris Hebbron


09/12/13 – 14:36

It’s interesting to reflect on these "also ran" manufacturers of the early 1930s. These could include the TSM E60 and related models, Thornycroft Daring, Vulcan Emperor, Morris Commercial Dictator, Gilford 163DOT, Karrier Consort and Sunbeam Sikh and Pathan. Quite possibly the pre-war Guy Arab is an "also ran" in this era of the 1930’s. None of these were effective competition against the mighty AEC Regent and Leyland Titan. Karrier and Sunbeam saved themselves by manufacturing trolleybuses instead. Would it be true to say that Daimler might have been an also ran had it not developed it’s "CO" series with Gardner engine and fluid transmission? The earlier CH and CP series had, I think, limited followings. Somewhere in between this list of also rans and the mighty Leyland and AEC were the likes of Dennis, Crossley and Bristol – the latter two having specific support (Manchester Corporation and the Tilling Group respectively) to boost their success. I agree with the contributor above that Portsmouth was a mecca for the stylish English Electric bodywork. Unfortunately the TSM’s shown had all been withdrawn long before I could be aware of their presence on the streets.

Michael Hampton


09/12/13 – 15:22

Hi Chris H. Yes, I would love to see the Renown bodies by Vulcan. Also the advert! Thanks.
Re. Michael`s comments about other contemporary "rarities", it is interesting to note the position of Guy in all this. I think the FC48 "Invincible" model was more of a contemporary of the "Emperor", etc. It was the mid 1930s before the "Arab" appeared, but as Michael says, it was definitely an "also ran" as were Maudslay and Foden double deck attempts during this time.
Daimler were quite successful though, with the COG5, and to a lesser extent with the COG6, but mainly with the municipal fleets. Interesting thoughts Michael!
Good old Bristol could hold their own though, with any competitors!

John Whitaker


11/12/13 – 06:33

According to Ken Glazier’s excellent tome on London Buses during the Second World War (a book now itself twenty-seven years old), the Express 12 followed the normal 12 but ran limited stop between Dulwich and Trafalgar Square. This operation started on 24th October 1940 and ended after 18th March 1941. The main purpose of these services seems to have been to get people home as early as possible, before the combined effects of the blackout and blitz extended their journey too much. By the following spring the urgency was reduced and the change of focus by the Luftwaffe meant that by the following winter these measures were not needed. They had not, in any case, proved very popular.

David Beilby


11/12/13 – 14:53

Thx, David B, for filling in the gap.
Although nothing can be read into it, it would seem that this bus was not popular, since it appears to be empty!

Chris Hebbron


12/12/13 – 12:20

Thanks, John W, for your comment (on 9th). I agree that the Guy equivalent of the Vulcan Empreror would have been the Guy FC, which was named the Invincible later in it’s production career. The FD Arab came on the scene in 1933, and was more contemporary with the Morris Commercial Dictator offering. I had forgotten Maudslay – was their offering called the Meteor? Memory tells me that Foden only produced one (perhaps two double deckers pre-1939. One was registered AMB 834, and had a body with a very sloping front profile in a straight line from upper deck top window right down to the front mudguard. I think it worked for a Cheshire or North Wales independent. I can’t trace the books I need to check these items, so apologies if my memory is faulty – no doubt you good folk out there will add your own memories and facts as needed.

Michael Hampton


12/12/13 – 15:36

Michael, the pre (1939-45) war Foden double decker appeared in 1934, and it would seem that three examples were made. AMB 834 had a Burlingham body with the features you describe, and was purchased by the Ebor Bus Company of Mansfield. A little bit of history about this company may be found here:- www.ourmansfieldandarea.org.uk/
The fates of the other two Foden ‘deckers seem to be more elusive to researchers.

Roger Cox


12/12/13 – 15:38

Michael. The only pre war Foden I can bring to mind was the one supplied to Ebor, of Mansfield. This had a sloping front right down to the base. Not sure exactly when it was delivered, or who bodied it.Maybe Burlingham?
Coventry referred to their Maudslay double deckers, from 1929 to 1931, as "Magna", I believe, including both 4 and 6 wheel versions. I have also seen reference to them described as "Mentor", so hope someone can clarify.
Thanks for the "Arab" clarification. I think the first one was for West Riding, with a Roe CE body, but have always thought that the "Arab" was simply a Gardner engined development of the FC. Certainly, its chassis "geometry" is in line with the FC , being much more a relic of the TD1 era.
Would n`t it be nice if we could bring all this detail from all these 1929/32 attempts at AEC/Leyland competition together in one document!

John Whitaker


13/12/13 – 07:31

Guy double deckers always seemed to be rare in the 1930’s although Cheltenham District bought some (were they called Invincibles?). Another company was Albion which built the Venturer (1932-39 and CX (1937-39), which did not really penetrate south of the Border very much between the wars and not that much in Scotland to my knowledge. Glasgow had some, but also bought Leylands and AEC’s quantity (ever pervasive!). Dundee – NIL. Aberdeen – ?. Scotland never seemed so supportive of Albion as many North Country municipalities were to firms like Crossley and the like in that era. Yet they were sound and reliable vehicles to be trusted.

Chris Hebbron


13/12/13 – 11:42

FWIW, David B, I came across another EXPRESS route which ran for a slightly shorter period: 7/11/40-19/3/41 – same reason given. This was the 47, running from London Bridge, stopping only at Lewisham, Catford, Bromley (Market Place), then all stops to Bromley Garage.

Chris Hebbron


16/12/13 – 07:28

Following on from my posting of 9/12/13, I’ve found details of TS models, with dates into service, which might fill in more blanks: 1924 – TS5X and TS3A, 1925 – TS6, 1926 – TS5A, 1927/1928 – TS6, 1928 & 1931, both T-S and TSM B10A2.

Chris Hebbron


21/12/13 – 07:19

OOps! – In my list of "also rans" for double-decker chassis manufacturers, I mentioned Morris Commercial. I wrongly noted the Dictator, which was a single-deck chassis. The d/d equivalent was the Imperial. This was sold to Birmingham and East Kent (and I think Edinburgh, too?). Also my thanks to Roger Cox for linking my description of the Foden to the bus I had in mind – the Burlingham bodied example owned by Ebor of Mansfield. (Now another digression – Ebor is the Latin name for York – is this a co- incidental use of the fleetname, or is there a specific connection between the Ebor of Mansfield bus company and the city of York?).

Michael Hampton


21/12/13 – 11:46

It would appear that Ebor, besides being the ecclesiastical title of the Archbishop of York, was also the name of a famous nineteenth century racehorse. Perhaps the diocese should submit an entrant to the London Marathon. This link www.ourmansfieldandarea.org.uk/  gives a bit of information about the Ebor Bus Company, but it contains no indication about the origin of the name.

Roger Cox


21/12/13 – 15:20

The Roman town was actually called Eboracum, not just the Bishop! This shuffled into Jorvik (as in the heritage centre) with the Danish invasion and then this gradually became York. Similarly Danum Corporation Transport (the Crimson Lake chariots)- all right, Doncaster.

Joe


02/04/15 – 09:04

The Portsmouth Corporation Tilling Stevens seen on the Red Deer forecourt in South Croydon was photographed between October 1940 and February 1941. The row of houses behind the bus, and the school behind the houses were flattened when a bomb fell on the school on 5th February 1941. About 100 yards to the left, the South Croydon bus garage was bombed on 10th May 1941, destroying the building and 65 buses which had been refuelled ready for the next morning. Seven men were killed in the explosion.

H. Daulby


30/08/15 – 06:55

The most Vulcan Emperors amassed by anybody were the 25 the Glasgow Corporation transport ran.
Vulcan itself was bankrupt by 1934. The liquidators sold the name to TSM.
As for the 1933-40 Guy Arab Robin Hannay has some detail about it it the current (August-September 2015) number of Classic Bus; in it he also mentions the solitary Sunbeam DF1.
Also Ebor bus Company of Mansfield were connected with Ebor general Stores of York.

Stephen Allcroft


31/08/15 – 06:36

The Ebor Bus Company was an offshoot of Ebor Trading Ltd. of Walmgate in York. Part of their business involved financing vehicle purchases for various operators, one of which was Rudolph Twaites of Lockton, near Pickering, who ran buses into York from Pickering and Malton. Mr Twaites possible over-stretched his finances and the vehicles and business passed to Ebor Trading in 1929. This business became the Ebor Bus Company. Possibly the Mansfield business was acquired in a similar fashion. The York Operations were sold to West Yorkshire Road Car Company in 1930.

David Hick


28/12/17 – 07:56

I have no knowledge of buses but have got a photograph of a Tilling-Stevens bus which is being loaded at Folkestone Harbour. The reg date is about 1921 and bus is a petrol electric double decker, and looks very new.
My interest is in researching and building a model of the Folkestone Harbour railway.
There are a number of possibilities of why a bus was being loaded onto a ferry steamer for France. A return of a bus from France after WW1 is discounted as none were shipped out. The best that I can offer is that holidays by coaches to France were being offered via Dover, and Folkestone was trying out a new steam crane to load the bus.
Please can anyone advise, with many thanks,

David Austin


24/07/18 – 07:21

A very good picture of one of these TSM double deckers in wartime service with London Transport may be found on the following page (scroll down a bit):- www.hampsteadheath.net/bus-slides.html  Click on the picture for a larger view.

Roger Cox


25/07/18 – 06:08

Thx for posting the link of 82, Roger. This is the photo that I mentioned in the second paragraph in my initial blurb, taken at Golders Green.
As an aside, I said that seven TSM’s and three Leyland TD1’s were lent to London Transport at that time, Ironically, we’ve seen three photos of the former, yet I’ve seen none of the latter!

Chris Hebbron


26/07/18 – 06:42

I’m joining this dialogue at a late stage (7/18). I ived in Paulsgrove as a lad and remember changing at Hilsea Lido on the way home to the 21. It always struck me as a powerful vehicle especially when conducting a hill start with a full load in Paulsgrove. There were two buses scheduled for the 21 nearly always CWA6’s. As a small boy in the late 1940’s I remember the original bodies as they had wooden slatted seats. They operated on the then J/K route between Highbury and Wymering. Later in life I spent a short time as a Southdown driver operating out of the Hilsea garage.

Terry Ward


28/07/18 – 06:37

Thanks for your comment, Terry. Here’s a post I did some time ago about the re-bodied Daimler CWA6’s //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=5211. I lived in Pompey from 1956-1976, but missed seeing the original Duple-bodied ones as I was in the RAF from 1956-1959 and it was in 1959 that they were re-bodied. The corporation were late to have them re-bodied, being lucky to have their utility vehicles bodied by Duple, who probably built the best quality bodies from a hotch-potch of steel and green wood. On one occasion they rejected a delivery of this wood as being virtually unworkable, a close-to treasonable act during WWII! London Transport, who still had some clout during the war, managed to take delivery of all 281 of its Daimler CWA/CWD6’s bodied by Duple and even persuaded the Ministry of War TRansport to have Duple build a lowbridge version of their body, too.
PHotos of Portsmouth’s Duple-bodied Daimlers are very rare and have eluded me so far, but I did see a photo of the rear of one of them in North End Garage and was surprised to note that rear blind boxes had been installed in them, possibly the only case where this was done.
Riding in them for me was a depressing experience. With only 9 buses with pre-selective gearboxes in the fleet, the drivers used to abuse the gearboxes terribly and it’s to the credit of the makers and corporation fitters that they kept going for so long.

Chris Hebbron


29/07/18 – 07:33

Chris, the Pompey Daimler utilities were re-bodied in 1955, not 1959. That explains why you saw none of them in their original condition! It has become a recent myth to give the 1959 date, I don’t know it’s origin, but the true date is 1955. They then lasted until 1965, being replaced by the final nine MCCW-bodied Leyland PDR1/1s (246-254 with ERV-D registrations). Some of those Atlanteans (5 of the 9) were converted to open-toppers, renumbered 7-11, and I think some survive today. That makes a vague link back to those Daimlers in a way, and looking at a fleet history, the Daimlers will have replaced some of the TSM E60A6s at the head, so we can connect the whole thread!

Michael Hampton


30/07/18 – 06:31

I originally put 1955 in my other blurb, but didn’t look at it to refresh my memory and must have fallen for a later mention of 1959, which neatly, but inaccurately fell into line with my RAF service! I’m thinking that Route 21 was originally route J/K, or is that rubbish, too, Michael? Have you ever seen a photo of the Duple-bodied buses?
Mention of my RAF service has just brought to my mind how awkward I used to feel on the few occasions I had to come home to Pompey and be the lone figure in blue/grey amid a sea (pun!) of uniformed matelots!

Chris Hebbron


01/08/18 – 07:27

Unusually for Portsmouth Corporation at the time, route 21 (Hilsea – Paulsgrove) was bi directional. Once route 3-4 was converted from trolley to diesel, it was extended from Cosham to Paulsgrove and replaced route 21.
Route J-K began some time before 21. It was later re-designated 23-24. Part of a caption on page 97 of Bob Rowe’s ‘Portsmouth Corporation Transport’ states "Space does not permit an explanation of the rather complicated history of these two services (J & K respectively) which strictly speaking were not a pair."
I was born in, and grew up, in Portsmouth, but the area served by J-K was uncharted territory for me. A classmate told me that the service was difficult to understand unless you travelled on it. Maybe Mr. Hebbron or others are able to elucidate.

Andy Hemming


01/08/18 – 07:37

Hi Chris, unfortunately the erroneous 1959 date is now in print, in the Portsmouth Corporation Transport Super Prestige Series (No. 26) – a photo caption on p.60 has it as a given date. I must have seen the Daimlers with Duple bodies in action, as they seem to have been used on the J/K service, which wasn’t far from where I lived. But I don’t recall them, and the photos I have seen are in books such as the one I’ve just mentioned. Service 21 was a completely new route, started as a feeder from a developing part of Paulsgrove housing estate to Hilsea Lido, where passengers could then change to other service into town. In 1955, it was the first numeric bus service for many years (c.1927) – all other motor bus routes were lettered. It was also the first to be numbered the same for both directions rather than paired as, say, 21/22. Towards the end of 1960, it became part of route 3/4 (Cosham to South Parade Pier), which was converted to motor bus from trolleybus, and extended from Cosham to Hillsley Road. The J/K service was entirely separate (apart from some common roads in Cosham), and my memory says it started in war-time, although it had it’s origins in a private service from the Highbury Estate to Cosham. When the Corporation decided to rid themselves of lettered bus routes, it became 23/24, in c. 1961/62. At about that time, I was in Combined Cadet Force at school, and opted for the RAF – so you weren’t the only one flying the colours!

Michael Hampton


22/04/19 – 07:27

For those interested, there is an article on Tilling-Stevens on the Local Transport History Library website:- //www.lthlibrary.org.uk/index.html
This site, which has many illustrated fleet histories and fleet lists, is run by a group of transport enthusiasts with past and present associations with the psv industry. The secretary is Peter Gould, and the LTHL project entirely replaces, updates and improves Peter’s former bus operator listings, which are now redundant. This important transport reference resource is well worth a visit, and LTHL has now added a link to OBP.

Roger Cox


23/04/19 – 07:19

Thx, Roger, for the heads-up on LTHL. I shall enjoy reading the intriguing T-S story PDF Booklet and make a donation to support this effort.

Chris Hebbron


RV 1147_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


31/10/19 – 05:58

The Portsmouth Corporation J/K post-war route operated as a circular route around Wymering Estate linking the Estate with Cosham High Street (shopping centre) and beyond to Highbury Estate. The service was operated by by Leyland, English Electric, and Craven bodied Leyland engined TD4 back loaders until the early 1960s when the one-man band Single decker took over with the service redesigned 23/24. The J/K were indeed linked, with one being the reverse of the other. So in effect both the J and K ran in both directions between the section Sixth Avenue – Cosham High Street – Chatsworth Avenue – Highbury Estate. I hope this clarifies. There are photographs on line of buses running on the route. Prewar I have found evidence of the J/K running on the future 9/10 post-war trolleybus route. Cosham – Twyford Avenue – PALMERSTON Road – Fratton Road – Cosham Red Lion. These were apparently operated by the same above Leyland TD4 type buses.

Bernard Robinson


31/10/19 – 13:38

Bernard, just a note about Portsmouth’s J/K. The Highbury/Wymering route was, I believe, started c.1942, and didn’t have identifying letters at first. The pre-war situation for this area was a 7-seat limousine running between Highbury and North End and no Wymering connection. The limo was a 1929 Daimler [JG 522] which was purchased by the Corporation in 1935, and sold in 1942. The builder of the Highbury Estate had instigated a service using a Dennis 20-seat saloon from Highbury to Cosham [High Street?], and because it was over initially private roads, no license was needed. However, as the estate neared completion, he offered the service to the Corporation. I have never read any account of the estate’s Dennis saloon, but the Corporation didn’t take it over – even though they had experience of that make of single-deckers. The route letters used pre-war were two services, one was I/J, the other K/L – two separate routes, although they may have had common roads in part. But they were nothing to do with the Highbury/Wymering service as far as I am aware.

Michael Hampton