H W Hunter and Sons 1952 Leyland Royal Tiger Plaxton C43F (1966)
Hunter’s were a family run business who went for quality rather than quantity. They bought well in the first place, and as we’ve seen before on this site, their vehicles were well looked after and meticulously maintained. ZV 2428 is probably an age related registration that was issued when the original was transferred to someone’s car. That number is on a vehicle that is part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection. The vehicle in question belonged to H W Hunter and Sons, and is a Leyland Royal Tiger that they bought new in 1952, it came to them as a Burlingham Seagull, and being 1952, I presume it would have been a centre entrance. In 1966, they had it rebodied by Plaxton as a C43F. This vehicle, EJR 791, has an identical history, so the question is, is this in fact the same vehicle, or was it one of a pair?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
30/06/13 – 09:42
Ronnie, nice view! I remember some vehicles in what was then the Les Gleave Group being lengthened and rebodied in the 1960s. Roman City in Bath did the same trick – using Harrington – on at least one Royal Tiger they bought from Ribble. EJR 791, according to the PSVC preserved bus listing for 2012 is indeed ZV2428, at that time with Universal, Portlaoise.
Pete Davies
I thought ZV and similar registrations are what are popularly known as “Paddy Plates” (I claim Irish blood and am allowed to say this) -Irish registrations with the great advantage of not revealing the (venerable?) age of the coach. These seem/seemed popular with small operators who used them as “personalised” plates.
Joe
01/07/13 – 07:18
The ZV2428 Number probably means that this coach spent some time in Ireland. The ZV plate is used here for imported vehicles that come under a “vintage” registration class which covers vehicles over 30 years old.
David Jones
01/07/13 – 07:35
Mention of the Les Gleave Group lengthening and rebodying a number of Leyland Royal Tigers brought to mind this photo of one of these coaches taken in Eastbourne in the mid sixties registered 2048 LG the body style indicates the work was carried out around 1961/62. There is a photo of an identical coach at that time belonging to Campings of Brighton registered 501 WLG taken at the 1964 Brighton Coach Rally posted on the SCT 61 Photo Gallery section covering Plaxtons.
Diesel Dave
01/07/13 – 10:50
Only Northern Ireland plates can be used in Britain in the way Joe describes. ZV is used in the Irish Republic, as David suggests, when registering a vehicle older than 30 years.
Geoff Kerr
02/07/13 – 07:35
It is the same vehicle. EJR 701 is a Leyland PSU1/15 which was new to Hunter’s in March 1952 as their no 19; it had a Burlingham C41C body. In January 1966 it was rebodied by Plaxton to C43F and renumbered 27. In June 1977 it was acquired by OK Motor Services. In January 1984 it was transferred to Lockey’s which had itself been acquired by OKMS in October 1983 and was functioning at the time as an OK subsidiary; EJR carried the ‘Lockeys Burn Line’ fleetname, but OKMS livery. In August 1985 it, together with the rest of Lockey’s extant fleet, returned to OKMS with whom it remained until June 1987.
Alan Hall
06/07/13 – 16:02
I like the zero-(or possibly negative-)offset front wheels on the lengthened Royal Tiger from Diesel Dave, which give the bus a real heavy-vehicle look. One reason that I dislike wheel-trims (especially those ghastly wobbling chrome things) is that they obliterate much of a vehicle’s identity and character, and can add difficulty to a historian’s job. Thankfully, no such nonsense with 2048 LG!
Pete Davies: In your post of 30/06/13 you have implied that Roman City had an ex-Ribble Royal Tiger lengthened and rebodied by Harrington. The only Roman City vehicle I know to have been rebodied by Harrington was FRN 982, a Tiger Cub, not Royal Tiger, ex-Scout, rather than Ribble, and it retained its original length (more or less). The ‘Wikipedia’ page on Harrington refers to the vehicle as being ex-Ribble, so that may be where you got the Ribble connection.
Berresford’s ex Wilts and Dorset (originally Silver Star, Porton Down) Royal Tiger rounds the perimeter road of Longton Bus Station on 20th June 1971. This coach was new to Silver Star in July 1952 with a Leyland C41C body as built in large numbers for Ribble. It was fitted with the Harrington Contender Mk IV body in July 1956 after a serious accident earlier that year. It passed to Wilts and Dorset in June 1963 when that Company took over Silver Star’s operations. This information is taken from a series of articles on Silver Star in Buses Illustrated from February to April 1965. Jim Berresford operated a mixed collection of second hand vehicles from his premises at Cheddleton. HWV is showing “Private” on the blind but it could just as well have been operating on Berresford”s Longton – Leek service. A collection of contemporary PMT buses are in the background. One of the final (1962) batch of Atlanteans of Stoke Depot on a Longton – Newcastle Estates working pursues HWV into the bus station whilst farebox fitted Roadliner 1063 of Longton Depot awaits its next trip to Blurton. Just in view is short Leopard 1124, another Longton allocated bus.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
10/11/13 – 08:02
If I remember rightly, Berresford’s was a bit of a rough and ready operation famous for it’s bus grave yard – old buses were simply dumped, withdrawn, in adjacent fields. They were big Leyland fans and had a number of ex Stockport all Leyland PD2s.
David Oldfield
10/11/13 – 17:33
This Harrington body was a variant of the type seen here on this site: Maidstone & District – AEC Reliance – TKM 329 – C329 . The Silver Star version seen above is rendered even uglier than the M&D style, in my opinion, by the grotesque front grilles that seemed to anticipate some of the later aberrations from the Duple stable. Thankfully, Harrington went on to redeem itself with the stylish Cavalier.
Roger Cox
11/11/13 – 08:31
The whole frontal appearance makes the body a potential Ugly Bus Page contender.
Phil Blinkhorn
11/11/13 – 15:32
I’ve seen this vehicle described as a Contender before, but surely it is a Wayfarer III? As far as I know the Contender model was for semi-chassisless vehicles such as the Commer-Harrington TS3s. However, for many years the LDB registered Harrington coaches delivered to North Western in 1958 were described in enthusiast publications as “Contenders” rather than Wayfarer IVs which is what they actually were! In that case the error went unchallenged until the vehicles had already been sold by NWRCC. Do we have any Harrington experts on board who can clarify this?
Neville Mercer
11/11/13 – 15:32
And the coach wears a sad face to express its own thoughts on its appearance, Phil.
Chris Hebbron
11/11/13 – 15:33
The body is a Harrington Wayfarer Mk 3, rather than a Contender, which was Harrington’s integral model fitted normally with a Rootes TS3 two stroke engine, apart from some for BOAC which had Rolls Royce petrol engines. The Wayfarer Mk 3 is described here:- www.thcoachwork.co.uk/way3.htm .
David Williamson
12/11/13 – 16:33
Maidstone & District had a large fleet of centre entrance Wayfarer/Reliances but also 3 similar looking but front entranced Commers, all of which were “TKM” registered.
Malcolm Boyland
13/11/13 – 12:54
You could say that Berresfords was a rough and ready operation but what a fascinating one! I always loved a trip from Leek to Hanley on the 16, or to Longton on the 106 because you really didn’t know what delight from the fleet would turn up next. I remember an ex-St Helens AEC Swift being on the stand in Longton bus station once and the driver couldn’t get reverse gear, all the passengers, some of whom were quite old, dutifully got off and helped to push the bus off the stand! It must be said though that everything Berresfords operated was smartly painted in fleet livery of red and ivory with the fleetname quite professionally applied. They were nearly always fitted with a destination blind of some sort. Such a shame that Jim Berresford’s untimely death brought it all to an end, it was one of those truly characterful operators which are sadly missed.
Chris Barker
10/12/13 – 06:38
Recent contributors may be interested to know that my book, Berresfords Motors of Cheddleton, is due to be published this week by MDS Books/Venture Publishing.
Eric Wain
11/12/13 – 06:30
Yes indeed Eric, I enquired about it at last Saturday’s Transport fair at the Manchester Museum. This is one volume I’m really looking forward to!
Chris Barker
23/12/13 – 08:34
I’ve just finished reading Eric’s book and can heartily recommend it. A decent history of Berresfords has been needed for donkey’s years and Eric has finally come up with the goods – and I would still be saying that even if we didn’t share a publisher!
Neville Mercer
03/03/14 – 07:26
Eric, I have just purchased and read your superb book on Berresfords, an operator that has long fascinated me (and no doubt many other enthusiasts) even though I only visited the depot a couple of times. A couple of points – you don’t mention in the book the large number of vehicles which must have been purchased for spares only, on both my visits a lot of the derelict buses seemed to fall into that category but I doubt there is any record. Amongst others the “West’s” RTL, and on my second visit a Western SMT Fleetline, GMT ex North Western RE and several ex NBC single deckers. My second query is how did Jim decide on withdrawal whether to keep a vehicle round the back for spares, or sell it on either for service or scrap. And whilst many obviously stayed in the yard for years, other derelicts must have been disposed of long before the PMT takeover.
Michael Keeley
20/05/14 – 08:30
Thank you, gentlemen, for your kind comments regarding my book. With regard to the withdrawn vehicles and those purchased for spares, there were two reasons why this aspect could not be covered. Given the large number of vehicles which fell into these categories over the years, it became obvious that other text or photos within the book would have to be forfeited in view of space limitations. Secondly, although there was much information available about many vehicles acquired for spares etc., it was known that the list would certainly be far from complete and it was decided not to produce an incomplete list. From the early 1950s some vehicles withdrawn from the fleet were cannibalised and the bodies cut up rather than sold on. Some vehicles acquired for spares were treated similarly, whereas others donated useful major units and other parts and then were used for parts storage. One double-decker bought in 1949 actually donated its staircase which was incorporated into the rear of the extension of the office and workshop block! Unfortunately, I did not become aware of this until the book had been published.
R W Jackson (Cleveland Coaches), Guisborough 1951 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15 Strachans C41C
Strachans (Successors) was in a bad way in the early 1950s. Many of the vehicles supplied to operators in the 1946-1949 period had proven less than robust (due to poor quality timber), a fault shared with bodies produced by Santus and many of the smaller coachbuilders of the time. Nevertheless it was obvious that the firm would have to offer bodywork for the new underfloor engined coach chassis, and in 1951 the company produced its first five such bodies, all on Royal Tigers. Four went to Valliant of Ealing as WMT 321-324, and the fifth to Jackson of Guisborough (east of Middlesborough on the inland road to Whitby) as illustrated here. The “Cleveland Coaches” fleetname came from the Cleveland Hills which were there for several million years before Ted Heath invented the county of Cleveland! It wasn’t a bad design, although one suspects that the front corners owed more than a little to Windover’s “Kingsway” design. No more of this style were built as Strachans introduced their new “Strathrae” design in early 1952, and this was then replaced by the better known “Everest” model in 1954. Does anybody know what happened to GVN 952 after Jackson sold it? And does anybody have a shot of one of the Valliant machines?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Neville Mercer
25/07/14 – 05:48
The reversed flashes round the front wheelarch give this coach a curious pushme-pullyou look! Of course full fronts were a new challenge for most coachbuilders at that time. At least we know the chassis would have been solid and reliable!
Andrew Goodwin
26/07/14 – 06:45
It’s worse than that, Andrew. Adding to your observation is that the way in which the body flows downwards at the rear as in the front, giving a distinct impression that two fronts have been glued together! It even seems to have an early Morris Minor front grill fitted! It’s not quite an ‘Ugly Bus’ contender, but close.
Chris Hebbron
26/07/14 – 06:45
The Aldershot & District Dennis Dominant HOU 900 had similarly styled front and rear wings as built in 1950, but, in the course of its career, the “Tracco” removed these strange embellishments in favour of straightforward, simple wheel arches. On the matter of Strachans quality, it cannot have been as bad as some of the ‘mushroom’ bodybuilders of the forties and fifties, as the Dominant lasted for some fifteen years with A&D, and was apparently sold on for further service, though I am not sure where it went.
Roger Cox
26/07/14 – 06:46
It’s a very impressive looking coach but it could have looked so much better with deeper windscreens. It’s strange how so many coachbuilders at the time felt the need for the bottom edge of the screens (on underfloor engined chassis) to curve upwards to the centre and yet others proved it was quite unnecessary. Perhaps it was a carry over from producing full front bodywork on front engined chassis. The side has a decent line to it, the reversed flashes around the wheelarches do look a bit odd but no doubt another quirk of the time was that the front end had to match the rear. It certainly looks to be of substantial construction but that was nothing to go by as far as Strachans were concerned!
Chris Barker
27/07/14 – 06:50
According to available fleet lists, Jacksons were taken over by Saltburn Motor Services in 1957 and their four vehicles included this one. Saltburn operated it until 1962 but there doesn’t appear to be any further details.
Chris Barker
29/05/19 – 05:33
R. W. Jackson Were taken over by Saltburn Motor Services in 1957 GVN 952 later passed to Moore & Cartwright a building contractor of Norton -on- Tees, Teeside in September 1964 no trace thereafter.
Booth & Fisher 1952 Leyland Royal Tiger Leyland C41C
The first Leylands bought new (in 1952) by this Derbyshire operator were two Royal Tigers; SNU 234 had this C41C body whereas SNU 235 was B44F. Chassis numbers were 520911 and 520179 respectively. School journeys to Creswell swimming baths were often on this superb vehicle, arriving far too soon for me! About seven Leylands had gone before but all were second-hand, and all buses, so this one was special. The coach only stayed until 1963 and was later with McGregor, a contractor. I’m unsure whether or not it served any other operator in-between. SNU 235 lasted until around 1969 but I have been unable to find any photographs of this one.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
16/02/15 – 06:57
Nice!!! Thanks for posting. I wonder if Oxford Diecast can be persuaded to do a model of this one. I asked a while ago about the possibilities of having one of MTD235, but their reply didn’t leave me very hopeful. Still, the comments from Roger Cox when the Ribble version was issued – wrong shades used – might help them to get further issued right!
Pete Davies
16/02/15 – 06:58
Les, have a look at the posting of Booth and Fisher 612 JPU on this site, SNU 235 is just visible in the background. I have another slide taken the same day where SNU is in a line of 3 vehicles at the front of the depot
This design of Leyland coach body must have come as quite a shock after many years of coaches with curved waist rails. The later Ribble treatment of the lower front sill enhanced the appearance still further. Note the opening windows, they appear to be of the half(?) drop type and also the semaphore trafficator under the driver’s cab side window. The multi pane windscreen arrangement must have been a recipe for water ingress.
Ian Wild
16/02/15 – 15:47
Here is SNU 234 later in life with McGregor, contractor. Not a great shot but still worth seeing. I bought this five decades ago and photo is not back-stamped so I have no idea of copyright etc.
Les Dickinson
19/02/15 – 07:17
I am pretty sure this coach was with Cherrys of Beverly.
Ken Wragg
14/02/18 – 07:49
Yes Ian Wild you are right, the front faceted windows of the Royal Tiger coach do leak quite a bit and always did from new. I am currently restoring MTD 235 the Leyland demonstrator that was in Pennine’s fleet, it has wind-down windows and semaphore indicators below the cab – it is a very well built all-Leyland coach and a credit to the manufacturer. We have got the mechanics overhauled and am presently well on with refurbishing the interior – I hope the coach will be back on the road before too long. If anyone has any Pennine posters, notices, timetables, photographs and the like relevant to MTD 235 I would be pleased to see them to complete its history.
Phil Clark
14/02/18 – 11:23
Cherry of Beverley was the intermediate owner, SNU 234 was with them from 1963 until the sale to McGregor in 1966.
David Hick
15/02/18 – 06:14
Wonderful news, Phil. I hope to see MTD at the Tram Sunday event in the near future!
Pete Davies
15/02/18 – 06:17
Phil, Many thanks for your update re Pennine MTD 235, after the sad demise of Pennine Motors I and many others wondered what the fate of this special vehicle would be, after it being in store with Pennine for so long. I know it popped up for sale several times and then lost track of it, so well done for taking on the restoration and good luck with it!! Hope all goes well. I eagerly wait to see MTD 235 back on the road ,at the Pennine running day at some point maybe ?
Mark McAlister
21/02/18 – 07:00
It is very gratifying to know that MTD 235 is undergoing restoration & it will make a fitting tribute to Pennine & Leyland Motors (indeed Pennine was a very loyal Leyland customer). Does anybody know what has happened to the Plaxton Elite bodied Leopard which came to Pennine when still quite new when Ezra Laycock was taken over in 1972?. Pennine had put this on one side for possible preservation.
Andrew Spriggs
09/04/19 – 08:47
Thanks for the memories regarding the run from Sheffield (Eyre Street stop) to Coal Aston. I used that bus when I was 9 until I was 11 (1959-1961) as I used to travel from my school to our home in Coal Aston on the, then, new Firthwood Estate.
Southdown Motor Services Ltd 1953 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 East Lancs DP40C
This photo taken in the mid sixties in Pevensey Road Eastbourne shows one of my all time favourites, one of batch of thirty No’s 1510-1539 Reg No’s MCD 510-539 delivered in 1953 it is a Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 with an East Lancs body delivered as DP40C and converted to B39F for OMO use in 1961 then sold in 1968. These followed a batch of ten No’s 1500-1509 Reg No’s LUF 500-509 delivered in 1952 these differed in being delivered as B40R also converted later for OMO work. My best memories of these handsome buses were in the mid fifties on the 126 route from Eastbourne to Seaford by the inland route via Alfriston and a steep climb over the South Down known as High and Over, the pleasure was much greater if I was able to bag the front N/S seat opposite the driver for which I always arrived early, the usual two cars (to use correct Southdown term) were 1528 and 1531. I little thought that about 14 years later I would be driving Leopards on the virtually same route but always wished it was one of those Royal Tigers.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
21/05/15 – 06:45
Very nice, Dave, but wasn’t B39C a bit difficult for OMO/OPO working?
Pete Davies
21/05/15 – 06:47
Does anyone know what caused Southdown to buy East Lancs bodywork, a very accurate attractive bus but at the time East Lancs customer base was mainly in the north. Did Southdown really use these as B39C for OMO work?
Chris Hough
21/05/15 – 16:56
There is a typo in Dave’s text. Should read’ and converted to B39F I also remember travelling on these as a child, both before and after conversion, and like Dave used to go for the front seat when they were central entrance. They were replaced in 1968 with a batch of Marshall bodied manual gearbox RE’s, which I seem to remember were not to their drivers liking!
Roy Nicholson
21/05/15 – 16:58
Spot the not so deliberate mistake 1515 was of course converted to B39F for OMO/OPO work part of the conversion entailed the previously recessed N/S windscreen being made upright to accommodate the new doors when open, my apologies for my poor proof reading.
Diesel Dave
23/05/15 – 07:20
Chris Hough asks about Southdown’s use of East Lancs products – I think the first use was in the war-time rebodying of two Leyland TD1s, and eight Leyland TD2’s to utility specification, a job which East Lancs was authorised (with Willowbrook) to do, rather than body new chassis. Southdown must have been satisfied, because East Lancs was included in the re-bodying programme of Leyland TD3s, TD4s and TD5s just after WWII. This exercise included several body-builders, including Park Royal, NCME, Saunders and Beadle. 59 bodies were completed by East Lancs between 1946 and 1950. Then the 40 Royal Tigers followed, and the final 24 PD2/12’s (789-812). However Southdown multi-sourced by also ordering from Park Royal, Beadle and NCME for double-deckers in the 1950s, finally settling on NCME for the 285 Queen Mary PD3s.
Ideal Service (R Taylor & Son) 1952 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 Leyland B44F
The attached Photograph dating back to the 1950 show HAV 384 in Barnsley Bus station preparing to depart for Pontefract on the Ideal service route run jointly with H Wray & Son. This vehicle was new to Simpsons of Rosehearty before being acquired by Taylors. The driver is Dennis Taylor, his older brother Len also drove. This was in fact one of the buses used on my school run on a morning and tea time to the High School and Kings School in Pontefract. This involved 5 buses on the morning and afternoon run. The morning being the worst as I lived in a village which was the last port of call into Pontefract and 1 of the 5 was the service bus you would put your hand out and eventually one would stop. Although the service ran in all weathers its time keeping was not what you would call excellent. It left the top of my village at 10 to the hour and arrived any time between 20 to and 10 past. You could always guarantee a place on the last bus from Pontefract on a Saturday night. They never left any one, a 35 seater was stopped by the police one night and 72 occupants alighted!!!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brian Lunn
06/08/15 – 05:50
Mention of packed last buses brings to mind the apocryphal story of the last Pennine bus from Skipton which had a passenger sat alongside the engine on the near side mudguard!
Chris Hough
06/08/15 – 05:52
How very interesting! Thank you for posting this. It raises a little query which, perhaps, ought to be in the “Q&A” section. I have a bought slide of JWF 885, an Albion CX13, which was listed in my source’s catalogue as belonging to Ideal, Wray & Son, of Harrogate. We’re not talking of the same firm here, I suppose. Are we?
Pete Davies
06/08/15 – 07:54
Pete the Wrays of Harrogate I think were based at Starbeck, they were mainly a coach operation if I remember right. They sold out to Eddie Brown. H. Wray of the Ideal service were based in Lord Street Hoyle Mill Barnsley, where I think it was the 4pm out of Barnsley used to stop to fill up complete with passengers before continuing on its route.
Brian Lunn
06/08/15 – 11:22
Thank you, Brian. I thought my assorted sources might be wrong – again.
Pete Davies
06/08/15 – 11:22
JWF 885 belonged to France (Ideal Motor Services), Market Weighton, East Yorkshire.
David Hick
06/08/15 – 11:23
JWF 885 was new to Baldry of Sancton in 7/51 it passed to France’s Motors T/A Ideal of Market Weighton in 1/54, both in the East Riding of Yorkshire. JWF was a Albion FT39N with Barnaby or Scottish Aviation body!! Ideal is still operating today, but is now part of York Pullman, but is kept as a separate business still in its original green livery
Mike Davies
06/08/15 – 11:24
I’m a little puzzled here: I thought that Leyland gave up building single deck bodies, in favour of just double deck ones, as a peacetime decision, at least until it had to with the Leyland National/Lynx. Am I wrong, or was this a one-off demonstrator?
Chris Hebbron
06/08/15 – 15:40
Hi CH There are 5 pictures of post war Leyland bodied SDs on SCT ’61 photo index Body Builder-Leyland picture number 249 onwards plus more further down.
John Lomas
07/08/15 – 07:17
I read an item on Simpsons and they received three of these Tigers HAV384/5/6 There is a photo on flicker of HAV386 I also understand that the 3 were mentioned in the Leyland Bus book, however I am unable to check this as I am in the process of sorting my book storage and I can not put my had on the book in question.
Brian Lunn
07/08/15 – 07:17
Interesting to read Mike Davies’ comment about JWF 885 having a Barnaby or Scottish Aviation body. The PSV Circle records it as Barnaby but I have a recollection of visiting France at Market Weighton some 40 years ago and seeing it with a Scottish Aviation body sticker. For all that time I’ve thought I must have been mistaken but here is some other evidence that points that way. Answers on a postcard.
John Carr
07/08/15 – 07:18
Brian, it was W. Pyne & Sons who were based in Starbeck (on Camwal Road) and their white and purple coaches were a familiar sight around the area for many years. Wray’s operated from their garage at Dacre Banks, which is between Harrogate and Pateley Bridge. Their coaches usually had ‘Wray’s of Summerbridge” on the rear however – Summerbridge being a larger village, literally just over the River Nidd from Dacre Banks. (Presumably Wray’s felt people would know where Summerbridge was, but might not with Dacre Banks!). Wray’s livery was mid-grey, greeny-grey and red, and the firm’s coaches could often be seen in the summer months with windscreen stickers proclaiming “On Hire To West Yorkshire”. Indeed, some of their distinctive coaches could be often be seen parked on the forecourt of WY’s Grove Park depot in Harrogate. At one time Wray’s fleet included a Yeates-bodied AEC Reliance and Yeates-bodied Bedford SB, whose flamboyant styling provided an interesting contrast as they rubbed shoulders with the classic lines of WY’s ECW-bodied LS, MW and RE coaches.
Thanks Brendan for the correction, I remember now. I should have twigged as I travelled past their garage at Dacre Banks often. I do remember seeing the “On hire to West Yorkshire” as you say in the busy period.
Brian Lunn
07/08/15 – 17:07
Chris, your comments re Leyland single deck bodies prompted me to plough through my old issues of Classic Bus as something rang a bell (issue 5, June-July 1993). You are right that Leyland did focus on only double deck bodies immediately post war, due to the huge demand for them at the time. This lead to the successful Farington body in 1950 which was built until 1954. The single deck bodies came about following the integral Olympic project in 1949, in conjunction with MCW. After that they produced two standardised single deck bodies for the Royal Tiger, the familiar all metal, centre entrance coach body from 1950, and the rather angular bus version from 1951. Nothing followed for the Tiger Cub so, as you have stated, next in line was the National, nearly two decades later.
Mike Morton
08/08/15 – 09:24
The photo of HAV 384 could only have been taken in the mid-1960s, since Simpsons themselves were running it well into the decade. There were only two vehicles in the batch, HAV 384 and HAV 385 – the latter operated for Garner, Bridge of Weir after service with Simpsons. ‘HAV 386’ was an invention of the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Group, the vehicle which has appeared in photographs showing that registration was really ERN 709, originally Ribble 386, later with UTA/Ulsterbus. Talking of Wrays of Dacre Banks, didn’t they too finish up somewhere in the Knaresborough area? Whether or not it was Starbeck I don’t know, I don’t know the area all that well.
David Call
08/08/15 – 10:18
Well, this does get confusing. I’m glad I asked. I’m attaching a view of my bought slide, which doesn’t look to have a very green livery to me, unless it’s a combination of scanning a bought slide which may or may not have rendered the original properly, and my less than pristine eyesight. As noted in my original comment, it was listed as a CX13. Chris, Leyland built large numbers of bodies in both bus and coach form on the Royal Tiger, many of them for Ribble. They finally gave up body building in about 1953. My understanding has always been that they were too busy on chassis to afford to have anyone on building bodies. Look under Pennine in the operators section in the column on the left of the page for a view of the demonstrator Royal Tiger coach. I believe Baxters of Airdrie had a former demonstrator in bus form.
Pete Davies
08/08/15 – 15:32
Pete, I think the Baxter’s vehicle you have in mind would be NTJ 985, but it wasn’t an ex-demonstrator, it had been new to Corless of Charnock Richard. After the takeover of Baxter’s by Eastern Scottish it ran in the latter’s livery for a while. //www.sct61.org.uk/xb107
David Call
09/08/15 – 06:40
Thank you, David. Now, any other words of advice from anyone about JWF?
Pete Davies
09/08/15 – 09:57
Thanks, Mike M & Pete D for reminding me of Leyland’s coach version of the Royal Tigers’ body, which I DO recall now, working for Southdown. I never remember seeing the bus version, perhaps because they tended to be and stay ‘oop North’!
Chris Hebbron
10/08/15 – 05:43
There’s a photo of JWF at https://www.flickr.com/photos/which says it’s an FT39N with Scottish Aviation 31-seat body. In view of the size I would definitely rule out CX13, and although I have never before seen a Scottish Aviation body with a curved window line (the windows don’t look very happy, so perhaps it’s the only one they built!), the trimmings do look exactly like theirs.
Peter Williamson
10/08/15 – 11:23
Thank you, Peter W!
Pete Davies
18/08/15 – 05:40
The two buses HAV 384 and 385 left the Simpson fleet in March 1961 and October 1960. HAV 384 going directly to Taylor of Cudworth part of the Ideal consortium. They sold the vehicle to Mellers of Goxhill in October 1967. It operated for them until October 1968. HAV 385 went directly to Garner of Bridge of Weir in October 1960 and then to Tiger Coaches of Salsburgh in March 1967. From my own notes and checked with the PSV Circle publication SAD1, pre war operators in Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire.
Stephen Bloomfield
18/08/15 – 10:36
It seems I was a few years out in my estimation of when Simpson’s disposed of HAV384 – anyway, at least it wasn’t in the 1950s. Does anyone know why Simpson’s sold HAV 384/5 at such an early age? A year or two later they were buying secondhand Royal Tigers of similar vintage. //public.fotki.com/boballoa/1/
Bournemouth Corporation 1954 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 Burlingham B42F
NLJ 272 is a Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 with Burlingham B42F body, new to Bournemouth Corporation in 1954. She is seen on Southampton Common, while taking part in the Southampton City Transport Centenary rally on 6 May 1979.
This second view is a close one of the Royal Tiger badge. Compare the Tiger with the ‘fleetname’ on the Ellen Smith Leopard published a while ago! See it at this link
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
27/05/16 – 06:20
That brings back many memories. These buses were regulars on our ‘school dinner run’ through Winton, in the early 1960s, between two schools. They were a brighter bus than the Park Royal bodied ‘RRU’ versions, but they could be rather warm on hot sunny days, in slow-moving traffic, as the rooflights had no means of shading.
London Transport 1939 Leyland REC London Transport B20F
FXT 122 is a Leyland REC with LPTB B20F bodywork. She dates from 1939 and is seen at Longcross, Chobham, on one of those occasions that “Wisley” wasn’t at Wisley. In the Jenkinson listing of 1978, the REC is translated as Rear Engined Cub, which may or may not be correct. According to Ian Smiths London Transport website the CR in the fleet number stood for Cub Rear
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
31/12/15 – 13:00
I believe the vehicle is rear engined and was the first rear engine PCV class. I thought they were AEC rather than Leyland but would not wager any money on it. The styling is Q related I think and was the Q single decker the first inclined mid-engined PCV?
Having looked on the internet it seems I would have lost my money as all references seem to be Leyland
Roger Burdett
31/12/15 – 13:02
I’ve been waiting for one of these to come up, here is a shot for the other side.
Mr Anon
01/01/16 – 07:04
Sorry, Roger. Definitely a Leyland. Perhaps even AEC weren’t brave enough!
Pete Davies
01/01/16 – 07:05
What was the gear selection system on these vehicles. Were they manual or semi-automatic. Also, were they one-man operated or crew. Two very interesting photos.
Norman Long
01/01/16 – 10:56
I cadged a brief ride that day at Longcross and I’m sure that the gearbox was a conventional 4-speed. The engine (indirect injection) sounded remarkably like a Perkins P4, with that characteristic combustion tinkle, and it has the same bore and stroke. The rear hubs fooled me: I guessed they must be double-reduction, but apparently they house universal joints at the outer end of each cardan shaft, as the axle is arranged on the de Dion principle, which doesn’t give independent suspension but does cut down unsprung weight by mounting the differential either on the chassis or in unit with the gearbox. In the late forties on a visit to my aunt and uncle’s at Ealing, Mx, somewhere near Brentford(?) from the window of another bus I saw one of these vehicles, which looked very strange—even slightly creepy—to my 8-or-9-year old eyes. Fine restoration job, and thanks to the owners for saving another rare bus, full of innovation and individuality.
Ian Thompson
02/01/16 – 06:45
Ian is correct in his description of the CR, which was built at Leyland’s Kingston factory (actually in Ham) which had once produced Sopwith aircraft. The six cylinder indirect injection engine, which had been developed for the later production Cub KPO3, had a capacity of 4.7 litres developing 65 bhp, and it was mounted longitudinally at the rear of the chassis frame. The radiator was also located at the rear. The engine cover inside the vehicle was equipped as a luggage rack. The gearbox was the standard Leyland four speed “silent third” – sliding mesh 1st and 2nd, helical 3rd. Given the limitations conferred upon the passenger capacity of this small vehicle by the engine layout, it was particularly galling for the LPTB to have to adopt a space wasteful front end design similar to that of the contemporary underfloor engined TF (Tiger Flat) Green Line coach model. Had the doorway been located in the logical position ahead of the front axle (as was the 5Q5 version of the AEC Q) then the Metropolitan Police would have insisted upon an open, doorless entrance. It is often stated that the production of the CR was curtailed by the outbreak of war, but this is not the case. Always prone to over ordering, the LPTB originally decided that it required 73 examples in addition to the prototype. Having redone the sums, this was cut to 58, and then to 48. All, except the 1937 prototype, were delivered after the start of the war, the last arriving in December 1939. Many of them saw service in the first year or so of the war, but then went into storage in 1942. Several went into storage in 1939 from new. They began to reappear in 1946 when their original function had largely been usurped by larger buses. Instead they were employed on Central Area routes with conductors to meet the pressures of post war demand, and proved woefully unequal to the task. Breakdowns were frequent and spares in short supply. By the early 1950s they had all gone.
Roger Cox
02/01/16 – 08:50
Another bus spotters’ delight…….and operators’ nightmare! Thx for your usual detailed information, Roger, especially the gearbox information which I’ve always wondered about and which even the London Bus Museum website doesn’t explain. Although Merton Garage had the odd one allocated to it (Sutton didn’t, to my knowledge), I never saw one around my area at all. The Town & Country Act of 1947 rather ‘did’ for expansion of London (and other cities), where unbridled ‘ribbon’ development stopped, handicapped, in any case, by a lack of building materials. The ‘Northern Heights’ extension of the Tube’s Northern Line, plus some other Tube bits and pieces, were never completed and the CR’s intended feeder services never expanded.
Chris Hebbron
02/01/16 – 17:51
According to the Ian’s Bus Stop website, Merton (AL) did get at least 4 CRs in 1946/7 – including one in green livery – mainly for route 88, and Sutton (A) at least two for the 213 and latterly 93. The 1 1/2 deck Leyland Cubs designed for the ‘inter station’ route and a number of single deck buses (including some pre-war Green Line coaches) also saw central bus service (on routes with a double deck allocation) around this time. All were crew operated – the OMO agreement for central buses had by then lapsed, and the practical (and industrial relations) complications of having one or two OMO buses on a crew route would have been a bit too much to handle. Operationally, I understand that the single deckers only ran on ‘spreadover’ workings (i.e. peak hours only) and I would have thought that if any garage had more buses than crews on any day, the single deckers would have been left in the garage. Hired in coaches followed in 1947, and new Bristol Ks diverted from ‘Tillings’ companies followed in 1948.
Jon
03/01/16 – 06:11
Correction to my earlier comment! What I glimpsed at Brentford (?) all those years ago was probably not a CR but a TF, whose existence I’d forgotten all about until reading Roger’s reference to it. I recall the mystery bus as being of normal length. As I know practically nothing of what LPTB buses ran on which routes, perhaps someone—Chris H, perhaps—could say whether TFs did or didn’t go through Brentford. The combination of 8.6-litre Leyland engine and epicyclic gearbox in the TF must have made for a very tuneful ride.
Ian Thompson
03/01/16 – 10:43
CR’s and TF’s did have a generic likeness, Ian, and green CR’s did run in Central services and vice versa at times, adding to the confusion. The TF’s ran the Green Line services and you will be interested in that the 701 ran from Gravesend to Ascot, passing through Brentford, from 1946 to 1975, as did the 702 from Gravesend to Sunningdale from 1946 to 1973. I did travel on a few TF’s and they did exude an aura of understated luxury.
Chris Hebbron
06/01/16 – 16:37
Thanks, Chris H, for confirmation that TF passed through Brentford. The vehicle through whose window I snatched that one childhood sighting will have been a trolleybus on the 655 route. Incidentally, my only LT ride (on the long back seat for 5 upstairs where you can look down onto the staircase) was with the same Ealing aunt, and I’m sure the bus said “Hammersmith” on the destination box. Chiming gearbox and snuffly petrol engine that seemed to backfire occasionally; six wheels; straight staircase; what more could any bus-mad kid wish for? Up to what date could that have been? Thanks in advance for any info.
Ian Thompson
07/01/16 – 06:08
Probably 1949. According to Ken Glazier’s book ‘Routes to Recovery’ (about London Transport in the immediate post war years) the last double deck LTs were withdrawn in January 1950, the last examples running from Upton Park garage on route 40 (which didn’t go anywhere near Hammersmith) Apart from the last scheduled allocations, a number were spread around garages to supplement the scheduled allocation until late 1949. From Ian Armstrong’s ‘London Bus Routes’ website – Hammersmith (Riverside) garage had a fairly substantial allocation of LTs on routes 11 and 17 (London Bridge – Shepherds Bush – no relation to the later north London incarnations of the route number) and 73 until 1949. Mortlake’s routes 9 and 73 had LTs until 1948 and 1949 respectively (some at Mortlake were initially replaced by green RTs as deliveries had got out of step with needs).
Jon
07/01/16 – 06:10
Many LT’s were based at Leyton, Loughton and Potters Bar Garages, on your side of London, Ian. LT’s mainly left those garages around 1947/48, but were still to be found in decreasing numbers ALL around London until the final deathnell came in February 1950. Even two of the first 150 open-staircase ones survived to the end by then some 20 years old. These were due to replaced in 1942, had the war not intervened. I had a lucky escape from an open-staircase one as a baby. An aunt of mine was climbing the stairs with me in her arms, when she slipped and lost hold of me. A passer-by at the rear of the bus, by chance, caught me in the nick of time. Of all the LT’s, my favourite was the last ones made, in 1931, called Bluebirds. See here: //tinyurl.com/zllt7hk
Chris Hebbron
13/01/16 – 06:02
Thanks, Jon and Chris H, for the information on LT routes and dates. Very nearly having my school cap blown off on the stairs of open-staircase Titan Reading 36 (RD 777) seemed exciting at the time, but that hardly compares with Chris’s extraordinary rescue! Thanks also for the Bluebird link. LT741 is a very rationally-designed and handsome vehicle, and the superb interior shots answered all sorts of questions. Pity that no Bluebirds survived, but we can say that of a host of fascinating vehicles that live on only in tantalising photographs.
Ian Thompson
12/04/16 – 06:11
Here is a picture of CR 14, FXT 120, taken at South Croydon during the HCVC rally in May 1972. This bus was delivered in 1939 and went into service in Country Area Green livery at Windsor garage before being withdrawn into store along with the rest of the class by 1942. In 1947 it was overhauled and repainted into Central Area red livery, though the purpose of this expensive exercise appears somewhat elusive as it was only used by Chiswick as a training vehicle during 1948. Just one year later, in 1949, with characteristic profligacy, London Transport then repainted the bus back into Country green for service on rural route 494 between East Grinstead and Oxted via Tandridge, Lingfield and Felcourt, a route that then became a Guy GS operation after the the surviving members of the CR class were withdrawn entirely in 1953. CR14 was selected as an exhibit for the LT Clapham Museum, but, in 1967, it was sold off into private preservation. Although in the photo the vehicle is shown with route 12 destination blinds, the probability of a CR being used on that very busy route must have been remote in the extreme. However, it does seem that some examples of the class may have been used occasionally in the Croydon area for Relief duties on route 68 (South Croydon – Chalk Farm).
Roger Cox
30/08/16 – 06:46
I can confirm that red CR buses were indeed used on the 68 route. I used to often see “two of them” (numbers unknown) parked at Beulah Hill, junction with Spa Hill (Norwood) on my way to secondary school. I’ve no idea why there was need for two of them. My intelligent guess is that this would have been in the late 40s or very early 50s.
Derek
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
20/09/16 – 07:06
Among the first rear engined buses were the SOS REC type built by The Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Company, better known as Midland Red in 1935. The company didn’t find them successful and rebuilt them with underfloor engines.
Mr Anon
21/09/16 – 05:49
Since the CR vehicles were based on the Leyland REC chassis, Ian, was there any connexion between the SOS REC’s and Leyland’s, or was it merely a coincidence of titling? Could someone come up with more information on BMMO’s SOS REC’s?
Chris Hebbron
22/09/16 – 07:12
Chris, there are some details of the SOS RECs on //MidlandRed.net There were four of them fitted with transverse mounted petrol engines so I think only the name was the same.
This bus must of been brand new when I took this picture it certainly looks that way. If I remember correctly Middlesbrough Corporation used route letters rather than route numbers which was quite novel. I think they only had 2 single deckers in there fleet this one and its sister which was fleet no 2.
I was in the depot at the time this one was delivered. It was put in the paint shop. It smelt lovely. I remember it like yesterday. It and No 2 ran the S route to Seamer.
Chris Johnson
18/07/11 – 17:15
Unhappy memories of this bus! When I was about 14 I used to visit a friend in Newby and get the ‘S’ home, getting off at Kirby School. One Saturday Roman Road was closed so the route was diverted down Orchard Road and The Avenue, then up St Barnabas Road to re-join Roman Road/Ayresome Green Lane. Because the bus stop by the Conservative Club in Orchard Road was closer to home I thought I’d get off there, but the miserable driver wouldn’t stop as it wasn’t a normal stop, and instead took me all the way up to the General Hospital before he’d let me off, giving me a really long walk home. I never trusted bus drivers after that!
Stockton-on-Tees Corporation 1965 Leyland Panther Cub PSRC1/1 Park Royal B43D
Not the best shot in the world I think it was the first shot on the film and suffered from a touch of light getting into the cassette. Anyway there are not many shots of duel entrance vehicles on site so I think it is worth showing. The engine on the Panther was positioned horizontally under the floor at the rear and inline with the chassis as opposed to the Atlantean which had a transverse vertically mounted engine. As can be seen in the above shot the seats behind the centre door had to be raised to go over the rear axel and engine compartment. But having the engine at the rear did as can be seen enable it to have a very low step into the vehicle all though there is a step up immediately behind the driver. The coach version of the Panther had a one level raised floor but with having the engine at the rear it meant it had 120 cubic foot (3·4 cu.m.) underfloor storage for suitcases and the like. The engine was the reliable Leyland O.600 six cylinder diesel developing 125 b.h.p. in the bus chassis and 130 b.h.p. in coaches with a four speed epicycle gearbox with fingertip electric change and air suspension was offered as an option.
———
I know you are not meaning to mislead, but you haven’t mentioned that the Panther Cub (as opposed to the Panther) had the well regarded, but noisy, 0.400 engine. This was the final version of the 0.300/0.350/0.375 Comet/Tiger Cub engine. The 0.400 was better known in the Bedford VAL/VAM14 and Bristol LH applications. It was necessary to fit this compact unit to the Panther Cub as it has a shorter rear overhang than the Panther. The power output, at 125 b.h.p, was the same as the 0.600 but the torque (pulling power) and therefore potential life span was less.
