Lincolnshire Road Car Company 1950 Bedford OB Duple B27F
LTA 752 is a Bedford OB with Duple B27F body, new to Western National in 1950, but seen here in Lincolnshire colours as a ‘semi toastrack’ for seafront duties at Skegness. The first views shows it in winter guise, while the second view shows it in summer guise. The first view, taken on the 1st January 2009 shows it visiting the King Alfred running day in Winchester, while the second view shows it in the Alton rally on 18 July 2010. I understand that, by 2012, it was with that very well maintained historic fleet of Lodge, High Easter.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
03/11/16 – 06:24
Like many Sheffielders at the time, the Dickinson family had holidays in Skegness. Four of these OBs were employed on the Skeggie sea-front service. Two were open both sides, the other two were only open on the nearside. Numbered 2091/2/3/4, the one pictured was 2094 at the time and came to LRCC, along with 2091, from Western National. 2092/3 came from Eastern National. For this young enthusiast they had to be ridden on each holiday.
Les Dickinson
03/11/16 – 06:25
LTA 752 is indeed with Lodge, Coaches of High Easter. lots of pics of it on Flickr. It now has an entrance door to comply with latest rules & regulations. (cant have passengers falling out can we) Its the only survivor from those OB’s modified (by Duple) as open siders for Lincs Road Car on Skegness sea front service
John Wakefield
03/11/16 – 08:21
Oooh! I’d have insisted going to Skeggie as a child rather than as an adult if I’d known these beauties were doing the seafront duties! And all for 2d each way!
Chris Hebbron
04/11/16 – 06:20
The other plates were as follows;- 2091 -HUO 692; 2092 – ONO 88; 2093 – ONO 89. The first from 1947, the other two 1950. All these three to LRCC in 1958 I believe.
Les Dickinson
05/11/16 – 06:25
Just think 110 miles South and 2d to go “All The Way” would have a quite different connotation. I’ll keep the day job!
John Lomas
17/11/16 – 07:07
Was this the bus which appeared on Watchdog tonight-but blue: the seats are distinctive…
Joe
17/11/16 – 10:52
Here are a couple of shots of mine of LTA by now in the Lodge era, arriving in style at the LVVS Open Day event, March 2013. During the day, it was offloaded, and the window panels removed, revealing the full “toastrack effect”
HOD 75 was new to Western National in 1949. It has a Duple C29F body on the Bedford OB chassis, and the first view shows it in the Southsea rally on 8 June 1980. In this view it is in the livery of Porters of Dummer, near Basingstoke.
This second view, taken in The Broadway, Winchester, and shows it in the markings of Mervyn’s Coaches of Innersdown, also near Basingstoke. It is about to pass NXL 847, AEC Regal from Eastern Belle. The date is 1st January 2009 and it’s another King Alfred running day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
03/04/17 – 08:43
In case anyone is (a) not familiar with the area and (b) interested, Dummer is the home village of Sarah Ferguson, Price Andrew’s “ex”.
Pete Davies
04/04/17 – 07:05
Is this the same OB that turns up in all those wartime dramas pretending to be ten years older than it is?
Ronnie Hoye
04/04/17 – 08:45
Not ten years Ronnie. It was in Foyles War from 1941/42, and I think Miss Marple – So only seven years ish.
Pat Jennings
20/05/18 – 06:08
I’m pretty certain that was the exact same coach that used to take us to school there was two that took us and Porters rotated them sometimes we had the vintage one in the photo and other times we had their ultra modern brand new one.
Paul
14/11/20 – 08:01
It appears in “Woman in Black Angel of Death”, supposedly in 1941 – eight years before it was built!
Ed
16/11/20 – 06:09
Not as bad as the Routemaster that turned up in Foyles War. For a moment I thought I was watching Dr Who, and the Tardis had changed its disguise.
Ronnie Hoye
17/11/20 – 06:20
I understand that the series of Foyle’s War was filmed in Dublin, and the Routemaster was all that was available there.
Here is a view of PYY 28D. She is a Bedford J2SZ2, built for use as a Staff Bus for the Royal Household. The bodywork is a Duple Midland C10F. She started life with registration KLP 1D with the Royal Household and is seen at the National Tramway Museum, Crich, on 30 August 2004. The livery appears to be black. but it is really an incredibly dark and highly-polished green.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
05/12/13 – 06:57
Incredible, Pete. I’d forgotten all about this beast – but cannot remember where I saw it last.
David Oldfield
05/12/13 – 08:41
A fine vehicle indeed, and one that I’ve never heard of before. Presumably the impeccable dark green livery means it was supplied by Harrods “by appointment to H. M. The Queen, suppliers of motor omnibuses” – sorry, just another of my infantile mischievous thoughts !!
Chris Youhill
05/12/13 – 08:58
Nice one Chris – but don’t mock. You never know.
David Oldfield
05/12/13 – 11:39
I believe that ‘purveyors’ is the word, rather than ‘suppliers’, Chris! Much more classy! What is the current situation of the vehicle? Many ‘royal’ vehicles/trains/yachts have very cossetted and long lives – is this one of them? It’s a very stylish vehicle which hasn’t really dated.
Chris Hebbron
05/12/13 – 11:40
This is a very nice looking coach – reminds me of the Maidstone & District Knightrider in it’s livery style (although the M&D one was really black, I think). But is it cheeky to ponder why the Royal Household chose a Bedford coach? Why not go to their supplier of limousines, Daimler? A few years earlier, and they could have had that rarity, a Daimler Freeline. But in 1966, I suppose they would have had a Roadliner supplied to them – perhaps they had already heard of it’s reputation!
Michael Hampton
05/12/13 – 11:43
There was also a Bedford VAS3 with a Willowbrook DP20F body new in 1972. This vehicle had an outward opening door. It was often seen at Aberdeen railway station taken staff and luggage to and from Balmoral. This vehicle is now preserved as RBY 764 K.
Stephen Bloomfield
05/12/13 – 15:06
…..but before….. The Monarch’s current ride is a Bentley. The prior ride was a Rolls Royce. Before that, they used Daimler cars – but pre-war it was Crossley cars…..
David Oldfield
05/12/13 – 15:07
Chris H, She appears in the PSVC listing for 2012. That’s where I obtained the detail of her previous registration. Has anyone heard any rumblings about when the next issue may be out? Think yourselves lucky, folks, as you nearly got a jet fighter after I hit the wrong button. Peter spotted the mistake before I did!
Pete Davies
05/12/13 – 17:51
By chance, Chris Youhill is nearly right because the Queen does use Harrods for her transport requirements. In this instance, it is D & H Harrod Coaches of Downham Market, Norfolk who are “By appointment to her Majesty the Queen, Suppliers of Coach Hire”
Nigel Turner
06/12/13 – 06:36
I’m sure this is the one that was at the Kirkby Stephen Easter rally this year. I’ve seen it a couple of times at recent rallies. I believe it has recently been advertised for sale in Bus and Coach Preservation magazine.
Eric Bawden
06/12/13 – 08:22
Very good, Nigel. For the benefit of those including me who have always thought it was HARROLD, here’s a view of the Warrant. It is indeed HARROD.
Pete Davies
17/12/13 – 06:48
I can’t let the comment about Maidstone & District’s Knightrider coach go uncorrected. It was indeed a dark refined colour, quite different from the fleet colours. Although it might look black in black & white photographs – and some colour renditions, too – it was in fact dark blue.
Petras409
17/12/13 – 14:26
Thank you Petras for your correction re the livery of M&D’s Knightrider coach. It makes the comparison with the Royal Household coach more pertinent, as both could appear black to a casual observer, but are actually very refined liveries in their respective colours.
Michael Hampton
17/12/13 – 15:07
Petras409 makes reference to the Maidstone and District Knightrider livery of dark blue. I have recently acquired a M&D cap badge which is dark blue and not the usual Green. I was informed that it was for staff working on the Knightrider, can anybody confirm this? A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all
Stephen Howarth
19/12/13 – 06:50
Coaches belonging to Charles Rickards of London (later Frames Rickards) carried the Royal Warrant for many years. I imagine that there will be other operators, in addition to Harrod’s, with a Royal Warrant. Downham Market seems nicely placed for Sandringham.
David Call
30/05/15 – 06:54
PYY 28D has now reverted to KLP 1D and was seen at The Llandudno Transport Festival in May with these plates, and a check on DVLA web site confirms this.
John Wakefield
31/05/15 – 06:43
It would seem that the Knightrider was named after M&D’s head office, based in Knightrider House, Knightrider Street. Was this coach designed for special work or what?
Chris Hebbron
06/06/15 – 08:10
Yes the Knightrider coach was designated into a series of its own LC1 (Luxury Coach), but was never operated in public service. It was effectively a directors’ limousine, used for high profile visits to outposts of the Maidstone & District empire. Its 16 leather seats were sumptuously laid out in a version of the Harrington Wayfarer body, mounted on a petrol engined Commer Avenger chassis It was kept in a state of permanent readiness at Sittingbourne depot, in fine fettle, but clocked up a very low mileage. The picture from the web (Commons copyright free) shows its midnight blue livery well. NKN 650 survives in restoration and must have involved very little restorative work by its current owners, after its undemanding life with M&D. I was privileged to have a ride in it, on the occasion of a colleague’s retirement bash, while still with M&D. It provided such a quiet, refined ride. Possibly the most luxurious coach ride of my life – the only thing that was missing was the gin & tonic from the cocktail cabinet. This last comment is a lifestyle point, not a definitive statement about the presence (or absence) of such a fitment.
Petras409
07/06/15 – 06:19
Thx, Petras409 for the fulsome explanation and additional photo. In those days, a petrol engine still had the cache of seeming luxurious over a diesel. Did it have a Bedford engine, Petras?
Chris Hebbron
07/06/15 – 06:21
Interesting comment from Petras about “Knightrider” in respect of the drinks cabinet. Grossly off topic, I know, but readers might find this amusing. I was using my ‘old dodders’ bus pass’ a few months ago, and was in Southsea, returning to Southampton. A lady in a wheelchair boarded, and commented on how old the bus was (S prefix, 1998). “Where’s the wide screen television?” she asked. “And the drinks machine?” The driver replied that he’d been naughty, and had been given this one by way of punishment (I suppose it’s better than a school run!) A few minutes later the lady had managed to fit the wheelchair into the space, and apologised thus: “Sorry about the delay in settling, folks, but my wheelchair’s put on a few extra inches since Christmas!”
Pete Davies
07/06/15 – 06:23
Why did M&D feel the need to have a dedicated Directors coach (Salford’s Committee coach comes to mind here)? I suppose at Salford there wouldn’t have been any other “suitable” [sic] vehicle for the Transport Committee to travel in, but surely M&D had enough front-line coaches to put one at the disposal of the Directors – neighbours Southdown and East Kent (companies with a similar commitment to coaching, and others such as BMMO and Ribble) didn’t feel the need for this extravagance . . . or was that the point, keeping ahead of the Jones’s?
Philip Rushworth
20/11/15 – 06:48
For Chris Hebbron’s information the Commer Avenger petrol engine was a six cylinder OHV Humber unit as also used in the Imperial Limousine and in the Commer QX lorry. For the Avenger and the QX it was mounted at an angle of 60 degrees to reduce intrusion into the cab.
Stephen Allcroft
17/10/16 – 09:08
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Just to revert back to this post, I am trying to trace a subsequent Bedford that also carried the KLP 1D mark. This was a 1985 Bedford PJK chassis No FT103932 with a cut down Duple Dominant 2 body C16F No 8507/0600 new to Kensington Palace in 6/85. This appeared on eBay in July 2014 with seats removed after an aborted attempt to turn it into a caravan. It was sold to a number plate dealer who sold off the KLP 1D mark to the owner of the J2 (PYY 28D) which is now re united with its original mark. The PJK was reported to have been sold on with another (unknown) registration number to a school or charity organisation possibly for a greenhouse! I am trying to trace this vehicle so if anyone spots it or knows where it is I would like to know through this website. The pic shows it in 2014 when it appeared on eBay.
John Wakefield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
08/11/17 – 07:15
On 5th Nov, I was at the Lincoln Vintage Vehicle Society running event, and noticed this little charmer parked up among the other smaller exhibits. I thought, I have seen this somewhere before, and yes, it is there in the OBP site in some earlier guise. It carried various window displays about its illustrious history and the front window card stated “Lincoln via Aidensfield” which suggests where it had been in the recent past.
Rob Hancock
09/11/17 – 07:09
The Duple Dominant Royal coach has been found at Sutton House & Breakers Yard a National Trust property at 2-4 Homerton High Street, Hackney, London. Its been made into a greenhouse with the chassis and floor cut away to give ground level access. Here is a link to pics of KLP 1D https://www.flickr.com/ and a link to the Sutton House web site. https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk
John Wakefield
10/11/17 – 06:46
If you are on a site which doesn’t readily accept right click Copy & Paste. You can usually use Ctrl C for copy and Ctrl V for paste.
British Overseas Airways Corporation 1960 Bedford CAL Martin Walker B10F
MFB 724 is a Bedford CAL with Martin Walter minibus body, seating 10 passengers. The PSVC listing says she was new to a private owner in 1960 – the registration suggests somewhere in the Bath area – but is now resident at Brooklands, in the BOAC livery we see here. Photographed at Wisley on 11 April 2010.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
07/07/15 – 06:57
Martin-Walter later renamed themselves Dormobile, after the famous body of which this vehicle is a later example. Although the classic Dormobile was found mainly on the Bedford CA and successor CF chassis, they also built versions, especially camper versions, on other chassis makes, too. They later produced mini/midi bus bodies, mainly on the long-lived Morris/BMC/Leyland FC chassis, the one, in lorry form, with the cab door at a 45 degree angle between side and rear of cab, enabling it to open within the width of the vehicle. An example of a 1979 mini-body on LT Ford Transit FS24 is found halfway down the page here: //www.focustransport.org.uk/yltmini.aspx
Moss Tours Isle of WiGht 1955 Beadle Rochester Beadle C41C
This picture of WKJ 787, a Beadle Rochester C41C coach was taken in 1970 at Alum Bay, Isle of Wight. The Rochester was an integral design from the Dartford based coachbuilder, and was powered by the Rootes TS3 3 cylinder horizontally opposed piston two stroke engine, very similar to the pre war Sulzer ZG9. (The wartime Junkers Jumo aero engine operated on related principles but differed in several design aspects.) The TS3 was designed initially at the Humber works of the Rootes group, and production was undertaken at the former Tilling Stevens (hence “TS”) factory in Maidstone that Rootes acquired in the autumn of 1950. Two stroke engines have a power stroke on every rotation of the crankshaft, and have to have some form of pressure charging for induction. On the TS3 (and on contemporary Foden two strokes) this was achieved by a Roots (no commercial relation to Rootes) supercharger driven by the engine, which absorbed some of the power output. The engine had a capacity of 3.26 litres and developed 105 bhp at 2400 rpm. The very distinctive exhaust note akin to a Gatling Gun in full cry earned these engine the sobriquet of “Knockers”. A four cylinder 4.35 litres version was developed giving 200 bhp at 2600 rpm, and 14 prototypes ran 1.2 million miles very successfully, but this programme came to a halt with the Chrysler takeover of Rootes in 1967. Chrysler had entered into joint agreements with fellow American engineers Cummins for commercial vehicle engine supplies, and the exceptionally promising TS4 was an embarrassment to these arrangements. As it turned out, the Cummins V6 and V8 engines were a disaster. The TS3 was subsequently cancelled as well, and Chrysler turned to Perkins for the supply of smaller engines. Yet another promising British engineering achievement foundered upon corporate ignorance and myopia. //www.commer.org.nz/ The Rochester in the picture began life in 1955 as a Beadle demonstrator, and was later acquired by Moss Tours on the Isle of Wight. It was bought by a church group in the 1990s, and then thankfully sold on into preservation. To my eye, the body design is quite well proportioned, making due allowances for the ample application of chrome at the front. A recent view of this Rochester may be found here:- www.flickr.com/
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
03/08/12 – 07:57
To my mind this is pretty much what a centre entrance Weymann Fanfare would have looked like. I’ve never seen one, so was that an option or were they all front entrance?
Ronnie Hoye
03/08/12 – 07:58
Whereas there were front entrance Rochesters there were never centre entrance Fanfares. They are suspiciously similar but I believe Weymann were on the market first and, if you ignore the Fanfare front end, the rest can be seen as pure Beadle – despite similarities. I still find it incredible, after all these years, that Beadle “got away with” the Rochester as did Duple (or was it Roe?) with the Elizabethan and the Dalesman. This vehicle made a guest appearance at last year’s Hemel Running Day. Handsome beast, whatever.
David Oldfield
03/08/12 – 07:59
Yorkshire Woollen had a batch registered CHD 375-390 new in 1957 and these were C41F.They were all withdrawn in 1967.
Philip Carlton
03/08/12 – 08:12
I’ve seen this several times, in ISLAND QUEEN guise. Moss still exists as an operator on the Isle of Wight, as part of Southern Vectis, whose fleet has been renumbered in the last few weeks as part of an exercise involving the whole of “Go South Coast”.
Pete Davies
03/08/12 – 10:56
What a lovely picture. I can see the Fanfare similarities but it smacks of Yeates in some ways too.
Les Dickinson
03/08/12 – 17:20
The TS3 was an amazing engine; a real success story in a difficult area of internal combustion technology. General Motors also produced the Detroit Diesel with a Roots blower, as early as 1938. It was used in some British tanks, but never used in the UK other than this, to my knowledge. Chrysler made a stupid decision to scrap development (which included plans, jigs and engines) of the TS4, which was virtually ready to go. A couple of engines survived under wraps and here is the wonderful sound of a TS4 running: www.youtube.com/
Chris Hebbron
03/08/12 – 17:21
Yes, Les, the somewhat ornate decoration does suggest the designer had a look at some Yeates products and liked what he saw. I’ve always had the idea that the Yeates decoration was overdone, on the basis of “There’s a bit here that’s still blank. Let’s decorate it!” It must have increased the body weight, surely?
Pete Davies
03/08/12 – 17:21
Southdown had 25 Rochesters the first five of which had centre entrances but the windscreens and the first body bay were quite different being more akin to the bodies fitted to Southdown’s Tiger Cubs which were being delivered around that time. The remaining twenty were standard front entrance 41 seat models which were used extensively on express services. I drove later Commer Avengers fitted with this engine which could be quite lively if revs were kept up which makes me think I would love to have tried the four cylinder version it could have had great potential another chance missed.
Diesel Dave
03/08/12 – 17:40
I have been through my archives and attached is a picture you may want to add to the current discussion. Island Queen is owned by Roger Burdett and in 2008 I was a passenger on it to Scotland via the Kirkby Stephen Rally. The day before we went to the Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway where I took this picture. Besides the obvious change in livery the vehicle has lost one of the orange front skylights.
Ken Jones
04/08/12 – 07:45
Thanks for that link to the TS4, Chris. That sound takes me right back to the days when the Southdown Commers could be seen (and decidedly heard) sprinting along the A22 and A23 south of Croydon. The cancellation of the TS4 and discontinuation of the TS3 should be added to the sadly substantial list of corporate follies that has denuded the UK economy of much of its engineering expertise.
Roger Cox
04/08/12 – 07:46
How did it perform, Ken, and was the engine noise subdued inside?
Chris Hebbron
04/08/12 – 07:47
I couldn’t have put it better myself Pete, this is better for being a little less cluttered I think.
Les Dickinson
04/08/12 – 11:41
Reference question above from Chris Hebbron – I thought it performed well – Scotland and back with no problems – and as a passenger it gave a nice ride. It was however noisy depending where you sat, so choice of seat is very important on this vehicle as I soon discovered.
Ken Jones
04/08/12 – 17:20
The TS4 was discontinued as a result of the Rootes takeover by Chrysler who introduced the V6 in the Dodge KP Series. This engine was seriously fast outpacing the TS3 and according to my father (who used the TS4 in development on the road). Unfortunately it was an erratic engine throwing belts and of course saw its reputation totally screwed by its lack of reliability in Daimler Roadliners. Island Queen is a delight to drive and ok for noise if you sit in the front half. It is likely to be out and about in the second half of 2013
Roger Burdett
04/08/12 – 20:46
I’m sure that the initial engine in the Roadliner was a Cummins ‘small-V’ one, which proved troublesome to the point where it was replaced by a Perkins engine and finally a Leyland unit, none of which produced a fully acceptable solution. I’ve seen it mentioned that it was originally a marine unit and suffered from problems of responsiveness, not a problem in a marine setting. Other contemporary Cummins engines were pretty good, but the one fitted was suitably very compact. The chassis appears also to have been prone to flexing, causing body problems. The TS4 never really came out of R&D and into volume production, to my knowledge. Whatever the shortcomings of the early Leyland Nationals, they acquitted themselves well in comparison with the Roadliner. Thx, Ken, for the passenger experience pointers.
Chris Hebbron
07/08/12 – 07:14
I have had a ride on this vehicle, and got the impression that the engine noise was amplified by the entrance stairwell, which is presumably right next to the engine. This suggested that a front-entrance one would probably be more refined.
Peter Williamson
13/08/12 – 08:49
Here is a link to a picture of a Rochester with a front entrance body. The pillar at the rear of the front curved corner glass has had to be repositioned from that of the centre entrance design in order to accommodate the door. This one, KPR 688, was apparently one of three Rochesters bought new by Bere Regis and District in 1957. www.flickr.com/photos/
Roger Cox
15/10/12 – 17:06
The other surviving Rochester, 8 GMK, is likely to be a couple of years before it appears on the rally scene as there are a couple of others in the queue before it gets started. There is a lot of work to do to it, including a large dent in the rear dome and some chassis work. Plus I need to get the ‘K’ and the VAS finished first. There are quite a few shots of it at this link.
Charlie Lemon
06/05/13 – 08:19
I travelled many hundreds of miles on the Yorkshire Woollen Rochesters and always enjoyed riding on them. However, while 105 bhp is impressive on paper, my recollection is that they had no worthwhile torque whatsoever, which made hill climbing a slow and tedious business, even with a driver who knew to keep the revs up (they were the only coaches at the time fitted with a rev counter). With someone who tried to drive them like a Gardner, things became hopeless as below a certain RPM the engine switched to four stroke which halved the power. As far as noise is concerned, I do not recall them being any worse than, say, a Leyland inside but the ones I knew had front entrances and I always sat at the front. Outside was a different matter. I used to deliver papers early in the morning and remember a brace of Rochesters heading for Blackpool in the morning stillness as they blasted their way out of Cleckheaton. They were audible for about 3 miles. Heaven only knows what a TS4 would have sounded like.
Bob Hunter
29/10/13 – 07:17
The resemblance between the Weymann Fanfare and the Beadle Rochester, which was highlighted earlier in this thread, is also mentioned in John Senior’s “The Weymann Story Part 2 1942-1966”. Apparently at a time when Weymann was highly profitable there was a disagreement between the managing director, DJA (Jack) Davies, and the owners, United Molasses, about what to do with the profits. The row became acrimonious and Davies was forced to leave. He went to Beadle in March 1955, and the Rochester appeared the following year.
Peter Williamson
06/11/13 – 16:08
On YouTube under the heading ‘QUANTOCK CLASSIC BUS DAY 2011 Part3’ a short journey aboard WKJ 787 is included in the video. The Rochester footage begins at 5.54 and lasts until 8.09, followed by a very brief ‘encore’ from 9.20 – 9.56. Sound effects from the little Commer TS3 engine are as one would expect – growly, raucous and gorgeous. It’s definitely worth watching/listening to if you like 2-stroke diesels – just make sure the neighbours are out before you turn up the volume!
Brendan Smith
07/11/13 – 07:15
Brendan: My word- I’d forgotten what it was like. An Atco with hyperdrive…. and what a driver!
Joe
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
04/02/14 – 07:41
Does anyone have any information about WKO 136 ? apparently a demonstrator.
Potteries Motor Traction 1956 Beadle Rochester Beadle C41F
Taken in the summer of either 1963 or ’64 this photo of Potteries fleet number C7717 registration 717 AEH which was a Beadle Rochester C41F integral coach delivered in 1956, it is seen here about to enter Southdown’s Royal Parade garage where most tour coaches were parked and heavy repairs were carried out at that time, the Rochester was an unusual choice for extended tours probably due in some measure to it’s raucous 3 cylinder 2 stroke engine although if the revs were kept up it gave a creditable performance, for it’s day, but more revs meant more noise. Southdown had 20 similar coaches delivered in 1957 No’s 6-25 with registrations TCD 6-15 and TUF 16-25 which were used mainly on express services.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
12/10/14 – 08:53
A beautiful example of a Fanfare clone by Beadle. Shame about the raucous underpinnings.
David Oldfield
12/10/14 – 09:28
Fanfare clone was my first thought. Those engines were awful. There was a company called Trumix near Reddish, Stockport with a fleet of Commer mobile concrete mixers which regularly deafened the neighbourhood.
Phil Blinkhorn
12/10/14 – 09:29
A delightful looking coach indeed, but with integral construction I wonder what the longevity of such vehicles was. The specification “chassisless” always fills me with horror at the memory of the Yorkshire Woollen District Leyland Olympics of the 1950s – these seemingly modern buses showed signs of disintegration when almost new on the admittedly very rough minor roads of the 36 route from Sovereign Street Leeds to Elland. Since then of course there have been commendable strides in the construction method – a certain Routemaster comes immediately of course to mind along with many other very satisfactory designs.
Chris Youhill
13/10/14 – 07:41
London Transport’s tram/trolleybus division, led by an essentially LCC tram team, were unusually adventurous in ordering chassisless trolleybuses from about 1936, yet the bus division continued the traditional way until the advent of the Routemaster. The majority of the pre-war trolleybuses led a full life, too.
Chris Hebbron
13/10/14 – 07:42
Well, I never had first hand experience of these beasts, Chris, but I never heard of any structural problems. They were, literally, Fanfare clones, Phil. In its last ten years (as “Weymann Story Part 2” explains) there were lots of happenings which added up to the eventually death of a proud and distinguished coach-builder (Weymann). One was when the directors forced the removal of a popular and competent manager, Jack Davies, in 1955. [This was just after the introduction of the Fanfare coach.] Jack Davies was snapped up by another well regarded coach-builder, Beadle, who almost immediately brought the Rochester onto the market. [To be fair to Beadle if you “remove” the Fanfare front, the rest of the coach still bears a strong family resemblance to existing Beadle coaches!] As for the weakness of integrals. Chris is, as ever, correct in his assertions. AEC (Monocoach) and Bristol (LS) had the same problems as Leyland (Olympic/Olympian). Beadle however also had extensive experience building their post war integral vehicles using pre-war parts. Again I never heard anything particularly bad about these vehicles – and they were hardly mainstream, mass-produced vehicles.
David Oldfield
13/10/14 – 07:43
These were sold shortly before I joined PMT in September 1968 after 12 years service so they must have been reasonably successful. More than can be said for the Roadliners that replaced them! We had the dubious distinction of changing the engines (due to failure) in all six Roadliners at various times at East Kent, Maidstone and District and Southdown Depots whilst they were on extended tours.
Ian Wild
13/10/14 – 17:25
Beadle were certainly an innovative concern. Can someone explain the reason for and date of their demise?
Chris Hebbron
14/10/14 – 06:31
Beadle gave up building buses in 1958. The last were the PD2s for Southdown, built on Park Royal frames. They probably gave up because the golden years were over and supply far outweighed demand. They were a family firm with other irons in the fire – not least a Rootes car franchise. Eventually this became a VW franchise and they remain one of the most prominent VW dealers in the south.
A look at their web-site shows a big set up with, in addition, franchises for Kia, Land Rover, Nissan, Skoda and Toyota.
David Oldfield
14/10/14 – 06:33
There was certainly nothing wrong with Beadle bodywork, as it was widely used in many quarters, and not just the south east. They also built up quite a reputation with those chassisless rebuilds using Leyland Tiger/Titan or AEC Regent/Regal chassis. I always felt these looked stylish. Southdown used Beadle for a significant quantity of new builds, rebuilds and re-bodying from approx 1947 to 1957. These included rebodying 37 Leyland TD3,4,5; New bodies on 23 Leyland PS1’s (half-cab), and later rebuilding these and 40 Duple-bodied PS1’s to full front; Rebuilding 50 Leyland TS7/TS8’s into chassisless coaches (20 at 30 feet and 30 at 26 feet length); New bodies on 12 Leyland PD2/12 d/d’s (Park Royal supplied the frames); A magnificent total of 130 coach bodies on Leyland Tiger Cub chassis (I remember these most as being on the regular Portsmouth/London service, but they fulfilled many duties); and finally 25 Beadle-Commer TS3 coaches of the Rochester style. They look slightly different to the PMT one above due to having a central entrance. That’s a total of 190 new bodies, 37 rebodying older stock, and 113 rebuilds of various means – grand total of 340. I think they also did some rebuilding of Leyland TD3//4/5s which weren’t given a total re-body post-war. I don’t recall the details of Beadles giving up coach or bus building, but they seem to have produced satisfactory work for all their customers.
Michael Hampton
14/10/14 – 06:34
John Clayton Beadle established a horse drawn carriage construction business in Lowfield Street, Dartford in 1893, and, in 1900, built a new factory in Spital Street, which was extended in 1910 to include a car sales showroom. The firm expanded during the motor age into passenger and haulage vehicle bodywork, and general engineering. During WW2 it was a subcontractor to Shorts of Rochester, supplying parts for Sunderland flying boats. Beadle continued to make bus/coach/general bodies and integral vehicles up to 1957, by which time the declining demand for such products resulted in the firm concentrating on its private car sales activities. These continue to the present day from showrooms in Princes Street, Dartford, but the firm also has outlets in other towns in Kent and south London. The 1910 construction and car showroom premises in Dartford of J. C. Beadle are now, ignominiously, a Wetherspoon pub called the “Flying Boat”, but the workshops to the rear were demolished many years ago. A gallery of Beadle vehicles may be found here:- www.flickr.com/groups/1890258@N22/ Strictly speaking, the Routemaster was a semi chassisless design, employing front and rear subframes to carry the engine, wheels/axles, suspension and transmission components. The self supporting bodywork provided the structural integrity for the vehicle as a whole. It has been suggested that one reason for the abandonment of the FRM was the difficulty of introducing a centre exit without seriously weakening the structure, though redesign could doubtlessly have resolved the problem. (The other reason was that Stokes was firmly against the FRM, and Leyland had the integral Titan to sell.) One fully successful integral vehicle was the Bristol LS which ran to a production total of 1409.
Roger Cox
14/10/14 – 10:59
I too can remember this Rootes engine in various vehicles- sounding like a monster version of a mad moped. Thanks for the potted history, Roger. Beadle seemed to be jobbing coachbuilders, seeing a niche for modern-looking but cheap (?) coaches for firms perhaps wanting to replace half-cabs. If we are around 1956, as seems the case, the Commer engine could also provide a response to the massive post-Suez fuel price inflation. Eventually, sixties “affluence” and the multi-nationals with their service networks must have squeezed them out.
Joe
15/10/14 – 07:22
…..and of course the Rootes franchise also explains to Commer/Rootes running gear!
David Oldfield
15/10/14 – 07:23
Thx, folks, for the potted history of Beadles. At least they’ve survived in some form. As for their Dartford showroom, to their credit at least Wetherspoon’s have a history of preserving old buildings which otherwise would have decayed away and/or been demolished.
Chris Hebbron
29/10/14 – 07:10
At my time at Beadles they also built Commer vans, a number of Commer trucks built for the G P O MOBILE workshops for the erection of telegraph poles,and for a short while Humber Hawk estate cars. My jobs were to fit wheel arches, floor trap doors for access to the engine, stair treads. also about 12 double decker buses cant remember if they were for Southdown or Maidstone & District.
Southdown Motor Services Ltd 1953 Beadle – Leyland Beadle FB31F
MUF 488 is one of those curious vehicles built by Beadles using Bedford or Leyland parts. The Leyland ones came from Tigers or Titans. In this case, the combination was delivered to Southdown in 1953, and has a FB31F body on TD5 running units. We see it outside the Southdown garage at Amberley on 13 September 2009.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
05/03/17 – 16:03
I suppose these days this would be called ‘recycling’. It is quite a nice looking coach although the front end lets it down a bit. Rather plain around the grille area and the joint between the upper windscreen sections and the destination display sits a bit uncomfortably.
Philip Halstead
06/03/17 – 07:08
If my information is correct, the NGT group had 18 of the type. They were all built on refurbished pre war AEC Regal chassis, and although mechanically an AEC down to the last nut and bolt., none of them carried AEC badges or logos. Northern had 10 FC35F versions DCN 83/92 – 1483/92; all similar to the example above, 1483 is currently undergoing restoration in the very capable hands of the NEBPT Ltd, who set themselves very high standards, I look forward to seeing the end result. The other eight were for Wakefields Motors at Percy Main depot. Six were delivered in 1952, FT 7275/80 – 175/180, and were FC35F, the fronts differed to these, in that they had more bright trim, and an altogether softer look about them. A photo of 178 is posted elsewhere on this site. The other two FT 7791/2, 191/2 arrived in 1953, they were FC39F, as well as a larger seating capacity, they had a similar front to these which had a different destination layout incorporating a number section, to allow them to be used as D/P’s. All the P/M intake were different to those of NGT, in that they had twin cab doors and a full bulkhead separating the cab from the passenger saloon. 191/2 were sold to Garner Bridge of Weir, and 175/80 were exported to Yugoslavia of all places.
Ronnie Hoye
06/03/17 – 07:08
The running units for this coach came from pre-war Leyland Tiger TS8 FCD 368, which was delivered to Southdown in January 1939. The original Harrington B34R body, which had been temporarily converted to B30R perimeter seating (plus up to 30 standing) during the war, was rebuilt (not rebodied) by Portsmouth Aviation in August 1947. This body was removed and sold for scrap in February 1953, and the chassis was then cut to form front and rear running units for attachment to the integral Beadle body structure. The same construction principle was adopted some years later for the London Transport Routemaster. The Beadle body was offered in 30ft or 26ft lengths, and Southdown had examples of both. (Southdown also employed Beadle to fit full fronts of similar appearance to its Duple bodied PS1 coaches of 1947 to 1949 vintage.) Beadle Rebuilds (as the integral conversions became generally known) were introduced also at around the same time (early 1950s) by Maidstone and District and East Kent, again using Leyland running units.
Roger Cox
06/03/17 – 07:09
This vehicle has SOUTHDOWN in capital letters, which would make it a bus rather than a coach.
Chris Hebbron
06/03/17 – 17:12
Thanks for your thoughts, folks. The PSVC listing for this vehicle does not show whether it is TD or TS, but it does say B31F (not FB31F). Jenkinson says TD5 with FC35F. I note that his 1978 descriptions have been out of synch with other sources before! Chris H, yes, the general view is that it is a bus, but study the script on the front. I can understand why some consider it to be a coach. Now, where did we leave the discussion about bus, coach or dual-purpose?
Pete Davies
08/03/17 – 16:35
MUF 488 used the running gear from TS8 1468 (FCD368). It was delivered as a coach (888) but downgraded to bus work and renumbered 649 in 1958. Block lettering was usually, but not exclusively used on Buses. For example, the 15xx East Lancs Royal Tigers were delivered as DP’s with block lettering, but received ‘Mackenzie script’ when converted to OMO buses. The utility Guy open topers and Northern Counties DP Leopards also had ‘Mackenzie script’ and I have seen pictures of Beadle PD2/12’s similarly adorned. The front plaque with ‘Mackenzie script’ was a device used on many vehicles in place of the usual ornate Leyland marque badges. They were also used on ‘Queen Mary’s’. Hope this helps to clear up a few points noted previously.
Roy Nicholson
09/03/17 – 06:52
Thanks, Roy
Pete Davies
01/12/18 – 07:07
I recall this bus on omo operations with Southdown in the 50’s-60-s before sale to a Scout Group where it was painted blue. A friend of mine Ray Oliver from Chichester bought it and ran it for a time before selling it to whoever did the current repaint restoration. Alas we lost contact many years ago.
Keith Styles
03/12/18 – 09:26
I think the current owner has a couple of Southdowns and maybe this one will be out and about soon.
Roger Burdett
10/02/19 – 07:35
Re the Beadle re-bodied Southdown buses. Although they were mainly on the private hire/excursion work, they were used on a trial Service from Worthing to Steyning, I think numbered 66. The service ran from Worthing via North Lancing to the Sussex Pad, then along the narrow road to Bramber and Steyning. I don’t think it was a success.
BYJ 904 is an Austin K8CVC with Plaxton C14F bodywork, dating from 1952. She was new to Dickson and is seen here on Southsea Common for the rally on 11 June 1995. According to the PSVC list for 2012, she has emigrated to the Netherlands as BE-67-57.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
15/11/21 – 07:06
Not sure that BYJ 904 became BE-67-57 in Netherlands, that number went onto a Bedford OB DJD 217. From my records the Austin K8 was sold in Bonhams auction in 7/08 to the Louwman Museum, Den Haigh.
The Dutch reg for BYJ 904 is BE-62-33 NOT BE-67-57 its in the Louwman Museum, Leidsestraatweg, La Haye
We start with a conflict. The PSVC entry for 2012 says LVO 530 was new to Lees, Worksop, while Jenkinson’s book of 1978 say it was new to Symes, Devonshire Hill. While the sources agree that t is an Austin K8 with Kenex body, PSVC says it is of the C12F layout, but Jenkinson says it is of C14F layout. Jenkinson says it was new in 1950, while PSVC says it was new in May 1951. Regardless, we see her at Duxford on 24 September 1995.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
28/08/16 – 09:44
It was new to Lees, Worksop. The entry for Symes in Jenkinson Preserved Buses 1978 is the last known owner at time of publication. The notes on page 6 of the book state the column 7 listing as the ‘Original or Last Known owner’. As for seating it would have been a C12F originally but was presumably up seated at later date, certainly by the time it reached Kenzie.
The history I have on LVO 530 is as follows:- Chassis No 14844 New to Lees, Worksop 5/51 Bisby, Sheffield ?/?? Kenzie, Shepreth 12/54 (C14F) Sworder, Walkern 9/55 Symes, Devonshire Hill, London N17 ?/?? Surbey, Clifton, Beds by -/97 (preservation) Almond, Kettering 10/03 (preservation) Bernard Staniforth, Aylesbury -/08 (preservation) Leach, Telford 11/09 (preservation)
John Wakefield
28/08/16 – 10:56
Thank you, John!
Pete Davies
31/08/16 – 10:18
I have often heard and read people describing minibuses as ‘breadvans’ and thought that they were referring to the Ford Transit generation, but this old-timer reminds me of the breadvans of my youth.
David Wragg
31/08/16 – 16:06
Quite so, David!!!
Pete Davies
01/09/16 – 14:06
According to the Nov 1995 issue of “Buses” (on p27, in a report on Showbus), this coach “began its career with Skills of Nottingham”! I suppose their reporter must have picked up the wrong end of the stick on the day?
Graham Woods
02/09/16 – 06:37
The ‘breadvans’ of my childhood were all horsedrawn, as were the milk ones, save the Co-op which had pre-war electric floats! When I first saw the K8’s, I thought they were so sleek and streamlined, unlike any other van on the streets at that time and have never really shaken that view off. As passenger vehicles, I would think that were a bit ‘bouncy’ with such a short length and the front axle laid back, too.
Chris Hebbron
02/09/16 – 06:37
Given the comments sections on almost any article you choose on the online newspaper websites, most reporters a) cannot spell, b) are unaware of grammar, c) should still be in kindergarten and d) get the wrong end of the stick.
Pete Davies
02/09/16 – 06:38
Graham, yes, that report would seem to be erroneous, I have a Skills fleet history which I’ve perused thoroughly and there’s no mention of this vehicle. Skills only ever bought three Austins and this wasn’t one of them.
There appears to be some confusion about the exact model definition of the immediate post war Austin passenger model range. The Austin “near clone” of the Bedford O haulage vehicle was the K type, and the equivalent passenger model (and OB lookalike) was the CX. Some sources suggest that the bonneted model was simply classified CX, and this became the CXB in forward control form. Others state that the bonneted type was the CXB and the forward control version the CXD. When a Perkins P6 diesel option was offered from around 1950 the type became CXD Series II, which appeared in 1956 in Series III form, essentially for export, with the BMC 5.1 litre diesel. However, pictures of the bonneted model and the forward control version are both frequently described it being the CXB, so what is the true position? The Commercial Motor for 1st October 1948 states that the first forward control CXB example which appeared at the Commercial Motor Show in that year was converted from normal control by the Norwich based coach builder and Austin dealer Mann Egerton. A picture of this exhibit may be found here carrying the fictitious registration number M(ann) E(gerton) 1949:- www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/ I remain sceptical that the 1948 forward control conversion was entirely carried out by Mann Egerton as production examples from Austin began appearing shortly after the Earls Court Show, though it may well be that the Norwich based coach builder put pressure on, and collaborated with, Austin in bringing the model to the market. The standard coach bodywork by Mann Egerton for the forward control CXB was given the name “Norfolk” and was distinguished by its curiously sculpted front end to which the standard Austin radiator grille (an upsized version of the shape employed on the cars) was rather incongruously attached. The result certainly lacked the businesslike appearance of the Bedford SB that appeared in 1950. Somewhere around 1953 the Norfolk body became rather more stylish, but the Austin coach was then in its twilight days on the home market, though exports continued into the 1960s. The 1947 bonneted Austin CX series originally had a 67 bhp 3½ litre petrol engine, but from 1948 this was upgraded with a 68 bhp 4 litre unit. The gearbox was a four speed synchromesh, which compared favourably with the crash box of the Bedford OB, but, unlike the Austin, the Bedford had servo assisted brakes and remained the more popular type by far. NPF 140 shown above was photographed in the large Croydon council estate of New Addington in 1960, and bore the trading name Karefree Travel about whom I know nothing. The livery bears a close resemblance to the 1948 Show exhibit – could it be the same vehicle, I wonder? It can also be seen in this 1950 shot taken in Parliament Square.
Copyright NA3T Arthur Hustwitt (Memorial)Collection)
Some interesting comments concerning the relative merits of the Bedford OB and the Austin CX range may be found here (scroll halfway down):- www.martynlnutland.com/
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
19/07/17 – 11:07
In John Carman’s excellent book, AUSTIN K SERIES BUSES & COACHES, the following information is shown. NPF 140, FC31F, K4/CXB, Mann Egerton, 139990, 9/49. L.G Lambird (Carshalton & Wallington Coaches) Wallington Surrey
John Rentell
20/07/17 – 07:20
John Carman’s book has an appendix of all the known Austin K series (including the 3 way van based K8) It also explains in detail the different designations. Well worth £12 including p&p direct from John at Mont du Herissaon Grande Maison Road St Sampson Guernsey GY2 4JH
John Wakefield
21/07/17 – 07:07
Amazing that a postwar 31-seat coach should have no servo braking. As with the Bedford OB, the appearance of this Austin coach suffers from the narrowness of the front track, which shows up to particular disadvantage in the lower photograph, but even with a full-width front axle the top-heavy, ungainly body design would still spoil the whole effect. Why were just-postwar builders and their customers not content with simple, unpretentious, straight-waisted bodywork that sat easily on the chassis instead of appearing to crush it? The CXB chassis deserved better! Thanks too, Roger, for the fascinating link.
Ian Thompson
29/07/17 – 07:10
I have one of the forward control model of these and I see that, whilst the log book doesn’t specify the chassis type, the chassis number itself is prefixed CXB. Don’t know if that helps.
Peter Cook
30/07/17 – 06:44
That’s useful, Peter. Could we see a photo and some history of your rare vehicle and how you came to acquire it?
Chris Hebbron
01/08/17 – 07:25
Chris. I regret to say that my knowledge of the history of the vehicle is limited. The reg. no. is MAF 544 so presumably it came from a Cornish operator. Chassis is CXB139946. As much as I know of the histroy is that it was acquired by Colin Shears at some stage and subsequently sold to someone who I think came from Plymouth. After it had spent a number of years outside, the would be preservationist decided that it was too far gone and returned it to Colin. I then acquired it from Colin. The bodywork was beyond salvation and went to Barnsley packed inside a Leyland National. I did keep some of the more iconic panels in case anyone wanted them. The chassis is being renovated.
Thx, Peter, for taking the trouble to post the photo and what history you’re aware of.It’s always sad to see old vehicles reach this stage, but doubly so when they are rare to start with. Saving the chassis is, nevertheless, a fruitful enterprise. Good luck with that.
