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Worthing Motor Services – Tilling Stevens – IB 552

Worthing Motor Services - Tilling Stevens - IB 552

Worthing Motor Services
1914
Tilling Stevens TS3
Newman O40RO

Here is a 1914 Tilling Stevens TS3 with a 1909 Newman O40RO body. She was once registered as CD4952 and is resident at Amberley, where we see her on 21 September 2014. Whilst she is normally regarded as a Southdown vehicle, she’s actually lettered for Worthing Motor Services, a precursor of Southdown. The Northern Ireland registration is not part of the current fad for such things, in order to disguise the age of the vehicle, usually a coach. No, the history of Wilts & Dorset mentions that Southdown and Wilts & Dorset shared management at one time. That management had some peculiar arrangement whereby their vehicles could be registered either in Brighton or in County Armagh. The IB plate relates to her original registration.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

16/02/16 – 14:55

The pre-war (1914-18) Tilling-Stevens machines of this type were TS3. With some post war refinements the model became the TS3A. Much misinformation abounds about Tilling-Stevens in print and on the internet. The TS3A is sometimes stated to have been a forward control model. It was not. The first Tilling-Stevens forward control models were the TS6 and the TS7, though some TS3 and TS4 buses were modified to that configuration with some design input from Maidstone. The ‘A’suffix to Tilling-Stevens nomenclatures did not signify forward control (‘B’ indicated normal control) until the advent of the B9/B10 and the subsequent models of 1926 onwards. The TS3 was initially conceived to replace the lightweight TTA1 and meet the stringent conditions laid down by the Public Carriage Office of the Metropolitan Police for operation in London – maximum length: 23ft 0 ins, max width 7ft 2ins, max wheelbase 14 ft 6ins, max laden weights:- front axle 2 tons, rear axle 4 tons, max unladen weight of vehicle 3 tons 10 cwts. The famous London B and the later K type were also designed to conform with these conditions. As delivered, the machine shown above almost certainly had the protective vertical bars in front of the radiator, a feature that Tilling-Stevens retained after other manufacturers had adopted styled grilles in front of the radiator proper. This gave Tilling-Stevens machines an antiquated appearance that, in respect of the B10 in particular, was not borne out by their reliable performance. Tilling-Stevens offered the heavier TS4 for provincial operation, but the TS3A seems to have been the preferred model for many operators at home and abroad – it was quite successful in the export market.

Roger Cox

27/05/16 – 06:17

A further note to the above. The TS3 was significant in being the first Tilling-Stevens model to accommodate transverse seating in the lower saloon, but the preserved example at Amberley carries an older style body with perimeter seating. It is, of course, a splendid restoration, but it is not a true representative of its type.

Roger Cox

Western National – Tilling Stevens – JY 124 – 3379

JY 124

Western National Omnibus Co Ltd
1932
Tilling-Stevens
Beadle B35R

JY 124 is a Bristol L, dating from . . . NO!

Despite the Bristol radiator, this is actually a Tilling-Stevens, new to Western National (fleet number 3379) in 1932, and given a new Beadle body in 1947. After some years in use with a fairground operator, it was rescued for preservation, and we see it during the open day at Winkleigh on 3 October 1999. Jenkinson (1978) lists it as a B49A7 while the PSVC 2012 listing notes it as a B39A7. Is there a typing error here, or did the specification change at some point in its history?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

18/12/16 – 13:30

I’d like to warn the readership that this is another in a series of "Not quite what they seem" views. The Darwen Regent V (434 BTE) published a few days ago was in this category, and there are several others in the pipeline subject, of course, to their passing our Editor’s filters.

Pete Davies

18/12/16 – 13:31

From August 1930 Tilling-Stevens (there should be a hyphen between the two words) adopted the abbreviated branding of T.S.M. to allay the perception that the company still had links with the Tilling Group. JY 124 is, or was originally, a B39A7 of May 1932, when it was fitted with a Beadle B32R body. This model was an undated version of the very successful B10 type that first appeared in 1928, that was itself a development of the 1926 B9. From 1931 T.S.M. adopted an alphabetical sequence for its mechanically geared ranges, and, as the letter ‘B’ had already been adopted for the B9/B10, the next model used the letter ‘C’, and so on. The designation B39A7 means:
B – model type
39 – the engine is the four cylinder 5.12 litre Ricardo designed side valve petrol unit that ultimately developed about 75 bhp
A – forward control
7 – the wheelbase is around 17ft 6ins (UK single deck length)
The B49A7 was a much rarer variant using the four cylinder 106 bhp four cylinder 6.97 litre petrol engine used in the TS15A and TS17A petrol electrics. By 1947 the body of JY 124 had been updated to B35R, and the chassis had acquired a Gardner 4LW engine, thus making the chassis technically B4LA7, the ‘4L’ indicating the 4 cylinder Gardner.
In 1937 T.S.M. abandoned the abbreviated badging and reverted to the Tilling-Stevens name.

Roger Cox

19/12/16 – 08:54

Thank you, Roger!

Pete Davies

01/08/17 – 07:34

I think it is strictly incorrect to refer to the radiator on JY 124 as a Bristol radiator. The radiator was manufactured by Coventry Radiators, and is of the same pattern as they supplied to Bristol for use on its buses but I believe they were acquired by WNOC/SNOC direct from Covrad. Similar radiators were available on general sale. I have seen one attached to a generator unit.
As regards the chassis designation, I have been told in the past that it was suffixed with the word ‘Express’.

Peter Cook

02/08/17 – 06:57

Tilling-Stevens adopted the name "Express" – optimistically for a bus with a four cylinder 64 bhp 5.12 litre petrol engine – for the B9 of 1926 and the B10 of 1928, the latter becoming the most successful T-S type in terms of sales in the company’s existence. The B10 was updated over subsequent years through the B39 and (larger engined) B49 models, almost invariably of A7 wheelbase, finally becoming the HA39 and HA49 by 1935. The name was revived in 1950 for the very basic flat framed 30ft by 8ft Meadows 4DC330 80 bhp engined L4MA8 model which was hopefully christened "Express MkII". It was Tilling-Stevens’ swansong and did not sell very well. At the end of 1950, by which time the Bedford SB had arrived on the scene, the Maidstone company sold out to the Rootes group.

Roger Cox

03/08/17 – 06:50

I meant to add that the radiator badge on the WNOC TSM’s was ‘Western National’ rather than the Bristol scroll. Took me a long time with a hand lens peering at Alan Cross’s pictures of the bus in Tavistock and Okehampton to figure out what it said.

Peter Cook

Southampton Corporation – Thornycroft Daring – OW 3434 – 9

Southampton Corporation Thorneycroft Daring

Southampton Corporation
1933
Thornycroft Daring DDFC
Park Royal H28/26R

Here is a rare beast, an ex Southampton Corporation Thornycroft Daring. It was one of 9 such vehicles they bought, in penny numbers, between 1933 and 1937. They were all withdrawn in 1946 and sold. No.9 went to Safeway of London and, in the critical vehicle shortage days post-war, around 1949, it was pressed into service with London Transport. Note the LT roundel (on the radiator) that all such hired vehicles carried. I should add that it was very rare for London Transport to hire double deckers. The bus looks fairly presentable for one with an expected design life of 10 years, yet now 16 years of age, including the trials and tribulations of wartime minimal maintenance, even neglect. And there’s even a shine to the bodywork, which shows no signs of sag. Sad to say, it was not preserved.
Thornycroft buses were not that common – Southampton Corporation probably bought them because the company had factories in Southampton and Basingstoke.

Incidentally, the car following the bus is a Triumph Renown.

Photograph and copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

Thornycroft Darings were very rare, SHMD Joint Board having the biggest fleet with just sixteen. Sadly, bus design was advancing so fast in the 1930s that Thornycroft were always just a bit "off the pace" being set by the technological leaders Leyland, AEC and Daimler.
The SHMD buses all had Gardner 6LWs, and Southampton’s last four 5LWs, but some had Thornycroft’s own petrol or (not very good) diesel. By all accounts the light chassis and big engine in the Joint Board buses made them very quick on hills, if noisy!
The SHMD buses also ran for sixteen years, and some were sold for non-psv use, so they were pretty tough. As far as I can trace, only one Daring survives, and that is a shortened instructional chassis in a museum in Sydney, the remains of a lonely export model!

David Jones

It’s true that SHMD was a large buyer of Thornycroft buses – I’ve counted some 104 of various models between 1925 and 1936. There were a total of 13 Darings spread over 1933, 1935 and 1936, all with Gardner 6LW engines. The very last one to survive did not go until 1959! Maybe it was a ‘learner’. The unusual thing about some 1925 Thorneycrofts was that they had Vickers bodies. I never knew that Vickers built bus bodies; one always thinks that aircraft was their forté!

Chris Hebbron

Sorry, definitely sixteen Darings at Stalybridge:
144 (ex-demonstrator with Beadle body)1933
145-149 (5) 1933/1934
150-155 (6) 1935
156-159 (4) 1936
147 & 148 were actually delivered with Thornycroft diesels, but SHMD knew a lemon when they saw one, and quickly swapped them for 6LWs.
Vickers built a good many bodies in the early/middle twenties, particularly on Thornycroft chassis; many were supplied to the GWR. The probable explanation is that at that period, bus chassis builders normally offered their products complete with a standard body which was sub-contracted to anybody with the spare capacity to take on the work at the time. Thus many Leyland TD1s with the standard Leyland body were actually built by Northern Counties and others to Leyland drawings. In later years this practice died out, mainly because operators had more idea of what they wanted and laid down more exacting specifications rather than just accepting what was offered.
Thornycrofts would have been on close terms with Vickers through the warship side of their business, as Vickers would have supplied most of the guns fitted to Thornycroft-built destroyers, so they were perhaps the obvious people to ask when bodies were needed. Vickers in turn would be desperate for work with the collapse of War Office orders for tanks, guns and aircraft at the end of the Great War.
Metropolitan Vickers supplied steel body frames to Manchester Corporation as late as 1933, but like many other early attempts at steel framing they very rot-prone and the vehicles concerned were rebodied sooner than should have been necessary. That seems to have been the end of Vickers attempts to build bus bodies.

David Jones

I defer to you, David, on numbers! I assume that neither you nor anyone else has a photo of several of these Darings together!

Chris Hebbron

As far as I know the record for a picture of Darings is the photo taken at Northern Counties in 1935, which shows all that year’s batch for SHMD; sadly they’re not finished, let alone painted! SHMD Darings do seem to have been very camera-shy!

David Jones

17/10/11 – 07:26

Referring to Dave Jones` comment about Leyland, I always had the impression, due to similarities of design, that many Leyland bodies in the late 30s and 40s were built by Alexanders and Park Royal.

Jim Hepburn

17/10/11 – 11:39

Indeed Jim, that’s true, and a good number of early postwar PD1 Titans had bodies contracted out to Alexander, Samlesbury and even one, in Samuel Ledgard’s batch of six in 1946, Lancashire Aviation – despite its aeronautical origin however, the latter was no more spritely than the other five !!

Chris Youhill

26/05/12 – 20:23

I’m a bit surprised to find that there is no reference in the list to the left of either Hants & Dorset or Wilts & Dorset. Whatever has this to do with a Thornycroft bus? Well, The Red & White group – which is listed – had as a subsidiary Venture of Basingstoke. It was passed to Wilts & Dorset at Nationalisation. There’s a chapter on Venture in "The Definitive History Of Wilts & Dorset 1915 – 1972" (by Colin Morris and Andrew Waller). It seems that it was established as a means of getting staff home and back to the factory in their lunch break, hence a "venture" on the part of the company management. Mrs Thornycroft (JI’s daughter in law) is cited as being the inspiration.

Pete Davies

27/05/12 – 11:30

Vickers of Crayford were one of the biggest builders of bus bodies in the 1920s, and they, also, produced the standard TD1 body for Leyland, the batches for Bradford being examples of this.
Southampton Corporation had many J type Thornycrofts in the 1920s, and also a batch of 6 wheel double deckers with English Electric bodies about 1929, so their small numbers of Darings were perhaps just a token order bearing in mind the earlier close relationship. SCT, in that period, were perhaps equally well known for contemporary purchases of Guy Arab models, with both composite, and metal framed Park Royal bodies, but they settled down after the 1936 orders, with the good old Leyland Titan, reverting to Arabs in the post war era.

John Whitaker

28/05/12 – 08:08

Nottingham City Transport bought four Thorneycroft Darings with Gardner 5LW engines from Southampton in 1947. The four were OW 9932, AOW 263, AOW 264, AOW 265.
The NCT fleet numbers were 122 to 125 and the Southampton fleet numbers 6 and 60 to 62. These buses didn’t last long with NCT as all had been withdrawn and sold by 1949.

Michael Elliott

24/11/15 – 06:13

Vickers built PSV bodies and railway carriages in the 1920s in factories at Crayford Surrey and in Nottingham. The works manager at Crayford in 1924 was Bill Black who was later Chairman of Leyland Motor Corporation.
Metropolitan Viockers and Cammell Laird later merged their coachbuilding interests to form Metro-Cammell, based in Birmingham, who worked very closely and later took over Weymann of Addlestone.

To Jim Hepburn,
Alexander built bodies to Leyland pattern from 1942 to 1948 or so. If you want a good idea of how a Leyland Utility would have looked, an Alexander TD4 rebuild would give a good idea.
Park Royal did not build to Leyland Outlines in the 1940s but other firms that did were Lancaster Aircraft Corporation and Samlesbury Engineering.
Massey Brothers built to the original Leyland steel reinforced Hardwood pattern into the late 1930s customers including Wigan Corporation and J. Fishwick & Sons.

Stephen Allcroft

08/03/17 – 06:15

When I was at Clifton College Bristol Preparatory School in the 1950’s we would be driven to our sports fields across Clifton Suspension Bridge in one of two Thorneycroft buses. They were impressively ancient, the driver sat outside with only a sort of porch roof to cover him. I remember a large fly off hand brake, a bulb horn and spoke wheels. I wonder what happened to these buses and whether anyone has a photograph of them with their College livery on their sides?

James Rooke

25/01/19 – 07:02

As a very belated postscript to the discussion on Vickers bodies, I recently discovered why Vickers stopped building bus bodies -sort of. In the mid-thirties they bought a major share in Metro-Cammell, having obviously decided that it was just easier to buy in the expertise than to struggle on alone. It’s all rather reminiscent of the way they bought Supermarines out to get hold of R J Mitchell, if rather less glamorous!

David Jones

01/10/19 – 07:07

ccbps

Your correspondent James Rooke asks for photographs of the Thornycroft ‘buses which were used here for many years. The attached come from D. Winterbottom, Clifton after Percival (1990). p. 98; despite the caption the photographs were taken in 1965; at any rate the negatives we hold are of that date. ‘B.B’ means Beggar’s Bush, the site of playing fields on the other side of the Avon Gorge.

Dr C S Knighton

01/10/19 – 15:23

A possible explanation of the disparity between caption and negative dates.
The original negative, or even plate, had been lost so a photographic copy has been taken of original enlargements.
I have had this done, before the days of computer scanners, in order to pass photos of ancestors to other family members.

John Lomas

04/02/21 – 10:03

There were three of these Thornycroft model K buses when I was at ‘Clifton Prep’ in the late 40’s. One afternoon on the bridge returning from the playing fields the driver misjudged the width of the bridge which was narrow & the bus body struck the ironwork above the left front side glass which shattered. I was sitting at the back & had a good view of the incident, luckily no one was hurt. The wood floors were so worn you could look through & see the drive shaft revolving. The seating was along each side & across the back. The drivers used the starting handle, no electric starter. I was told they were 1926 models. About 1949 they replaced the damaged bus with a Bedford, the superbly durable model K [made 1939 to 1953].

Douglas

D J Jones (Crymych) – Thornycroft – DE 6181

D J Jones (Crymych) - Thornycroft - DE 6181

D. J. Jones (Crymych)
1927
Thornycroft ??
?????

This Thornycroft was first registered to D. J. Jones in September 1927. The body maker is not known but is possibly Thomas & Thomas of Carmarthen who built many for this area’s operators. It is seen here carrying children to school in Crymmych (accepted spelling at the time) and the owner is at the wheel. Also on board are his son and daughter and a young William Stanley Rees who would later work for D. J. Jones as a mechanic and driver. Later still, Stan Rees would set up his own garage before taking over the buses operated by Edwards Bros, also of Crymmych, and eventually calling his bus company Midway Motors. Midway still operate, now in the hands of Mrs Elan Rees and her three sons (grandsons of W.S. Rees) whilst the daughter of D. J. Jones still operates school runs with an LDV Convoy. I am currently attempting to write the story of these North Pembrokeshire operators and invite any Old Bus Photos readers to input any information at their disposal!

Photograph courtesy of Mrs Decima Harries with Copy by Les Dickinson

27/01/14 – 08:16

Around 1924, the War Office revived the ‘subvention’ or ‘subsidy’ scheme under which vehicles of an approved design suitable for military use would command an initial subsidy to set against the purchase price, and then an annual subsidy for three years. This, it was considered, would provide a ready fleet of suitable machines for commandeering should hostilities recommence. The Thornycroft offering was the A1 with a wheelbase of 11ft 6ins, but a stretched version called the A1 Long appeared in 1925 with a wheelbase of 14ft. Uprated versions for 2 ton loads called the A2 and A2 Long followed in 1926 This seems to be an example of the A1 Long or A2 Long, which had a side valve engine of 3.62 litres producing 36 bhp at 1500 rpm, a four speed crash gearbox and a worm drive rear axle. The source of this detail is Alan Townsin’s book on the manufacturer.

Roger Cox

28/01/14 – 13:19

How many times do we look admiringly at old photos of buses and coaches from earlier times and think "What a fine example of the coachbuilder’s craft"? Couldn’t really say that about this one in all honesty!

John Stringer

28/01/14 – 16:37

Is it in a rut, or is that rear tyre under-inflated? Nevertheless, a really interesting photograph…I really like viewing the ancient photos of the beginnings of public transport, not just for the vehicles, but the old street scenes, and the clothing worn in those days. My father would have been 9 yrs old in 1927, and I imagine that a sight of this type of bus would have been nothing out of the ordinary.

Norman Long

31/08/14 – 08:30

I was transported to school from Llandissilio to Narberth between 1954 / 1956 in a Sentinel just like ODE 182, I remember the sword on the front,it appealed to a ten year old. I wonder how many 1949 models like that one that Edwards of Crymych operated.

Richard

01/09/14 – 07:30

Yours was probably NDE 689 Richard. It was delivered to Pritchard, Narberth in September 1951 but was sold to Edwards Bros, Crymych in June 1953. They had two of their own. Roberts (Pioneer) Newport had two, Harries, Prendergast had one.

Les Dickinson

10/03/17 – 06:54

I well remember Dai John Jones as a wonderful character, his wife was a cousin of mine. Dai John drove me and my Mother to Bristol in June 1941, at the height of the blitz. He stayed for a night before driving back – we all had to sleep in an air-raid shelter. Regretfully I have lost touch with his family, Denley and Daish (not sure of the spelling there). I believe Denley emigrated and when I last enquired, Daish still lived above the garage. I recall Dai John’s coaches ferrying pupils to and from Cardigan county School in 1941.

James Davies

10/03/17 – 08:44

James Davies, I can confirm that Denley emigrated to Australia. I can confirm that his sister Decima, aka Dess or Dessie, still lives above the garage. She eventually retired in 2016 and had continued with a minibus on a school contract right up to that time. She was subject of a TV programme after 60 years of coach driving. I spent some time talking to her in preparation for a book all about the operators in Crymych & Maenclochog, a lovely lady with an excellent memory. Her coffee and scones were nice too! The DJJ story makes interesting reading and I hope that my publisher will be taking this one as soon as they finish work on my Cardigan book.

Les Dickinson

18/06/17 – 06:56

Sorry to be so long getting back and thank you, Les Dickinson, for your most interesting comments. I look forward to seeing your Cardigan book. I also hope to be able to reach the area some time this year and will be making an effort to call at Crymych. It would be great to meet Dess again.

James Davies

18/06/17 – 07:56

James, I am currently checking and amending the proof copy and will be returning it to the publisher in the next few days. They have a little work left to do but will be sending to printers very soon.
The publisher will then accept the Crymych/Maenclochog book as soon as this Cardigan one goes to print. Perhaps we might meet when you are in the area and see if you have anything to add to the book before they call it in? Peter will put you in touch with me if you think this is a good idea.

Les Dickinson

22/06/17 – 05:54

Thank you again, Les Dickinson. I should be delighted to meet you when I am next in the Crymych area.

James Davies

Portsmouth Corporation – Thornycroft J – BK 2986 – 10

Portsmouth Corporation - Thornycroft J - BK 2986 - 10

Portsmouth Corporation
1919
Thornycroft J
Dodson O16/18RO

BK 2986 is a Thornycroft J, built in 1919 for Portsmouth Corporation. It originally had a Wadham O16/18RO seater body but was rebodied in 1926 with an ex London General AEC B 1920 Dodson O16/18RO body. Having been built in Basingstoke, it is fitting that she is seen in the Milestones museum there, one of three Portsmouth buses. Note the tram tracks – there’s a Portsmouth tram there as well. The photograph was take on 12th November 2013.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

07/07/14 – 15:54

Thanks for posting this elderly bus in it’s current position. We are fortunate that Portsmouth Corporation had what we would now call an enlightened view of bus preservation. Both this bus, from it’s first ever batch of buses, and a tram (No 84) were retained by the Corporation from the 1930’s onwards. They also saved the very first trolleybus (201) in 1958, which then went to Beaulieu in 1960. It has had a more chequered history since, but has also resided at Basingstoke for a few years. It is now safe with the CPPTD (the preservation group, not the Corporation!) in Hampshire. The Thornycroft in the picture was quite often brought out and driven around on special occasions for some years. At that time it was in the then-current red/white livery. I remember seeing it at the Brighton Coach Rally c.1962, with a bikini-clad young lady hanging on at the back, trying to smile, wave, and keep her balance! In 1976 (I think), it was used by representatives of the Portsmouth Council to open the new M275 motorway into Portsmouth. Fortunately there was no park and ride service then, otherwise there might have been some suggestions for use? – no, probably not. Both this Thornycroft and the tram seem to be well cared for now, and located in a sympathetic setting at Basingstoke.

Michael Hampton

07/07/14 – 16:39

Am I not right in thinking that this bus was originally No. 10, but renumbered 1 for most of its preserved life, more recently getting back its correct number? I used to see it a lot (with 201) at the late lamented Dave Chalker’s annual Southsea Spectacular on Southsea Common.
Does anyone have a photo of one of these vehicles with original Wadham body. I had one but can’t find it now – typical! Another survivor is what’s left of the 1931 diesel-engined Crossley Condor (RV720), after being cut down as a service vehicle. After being abandoned on the council tip, it was rescued and is a runner.

Chris Hebbron

08/07/14 – 07:18

When you see vehicles like this, you realise the great strides made in chassis and body design in the 13 years between 1919 and 1932.

Chris Hebbron

08/07/14 – 07:20

Yes, Chris, this bus was originally No. 10 in the fleet, out of the series 1-10 for the batch. I read somewhere in a fleet history that it had also been used as a petrol tanker by the Corporation for a while after withdrawal from passenger service. As the Karrier 6-wheel double-deckers bought in 1927/28 to replace these Thornycroft J’s were very thirsty buses , this probably explains the conversion. Another fleet history does state that the Karriers had to be refuelled during the day to keep them in service. Presumably, after the Karriers were withdrawn in 1935, No 10 was redundant as a tanker, and a Dodson body was re-united with it for preservation. It became No.1 in c.1942 – an odd year for such a decision to be made and carried out (don’t you know there’s a war on?). It remained as No.1 until virtually the end of CPPTD, and it’s correct original No.10 restored, I think in the early 1990’s, but I’m open to correction on that.

Michael Hampton

03/10/14 – 08:39

No 10
Copyright Unknown

I finally found the picture of No. 10 with its original body, on The Hard – I’ve only ever seen one other photo of these with Wadham bodies.

Chris Hebbron

05/10/14 – 07:26

There is another photograph of this bus with the original body in the PSV Fleet History PH14 Portsmouth Citybus Ltd.(and its predecessors) Pathfinder UK Ltd. Published February 1997

Andy Hemming

25/08/20 – 06:15

Chris Hebbron’s monochrome picture of this bus, also to be found on LTHL, is from a Pamlin print of which I have a postcard. This dates the image capture to 5 October 1925, though the shot seems to show decidedly bright and sunny weather for autumn.

Roger Cox

26/08/20 – 05:21

A sunny Autumn? Well, that’s Sunny Southsea for you Roger! Thx for the extra information and date.

Chris Hebbron

Westminster Omnibus – Sunbeam Sikh – JJ 9215

1933 Sunbeam Sikh with 64-seat Christopher Dodson bodywork, owned by Westminster Omnibus Co.
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Westminster Omnibus Co
1933
Sunbeam Sikh
Christopher Dodson (H36/28R)

In 1928, Sunbeam designed two prototype passenger chassis, a three-axle sixty-seven seat double-decker bus and a two-axle single-decker bus or coach. Two model names, ‘Sikh’ and ‘Pathan’, were adopted for them. They both had Sunbeam engines, but, despite their quality and reliability, very few were produced.
Here is a rare example of a Sikh, however, dating to 1933. It had a very handsome 64-seat body by that doomed London bodybuilder, Christopher Dodson, doomed because it concentrated business almost solely on London independents, due to disappear from 1933, when London Transport took them all over. You will notice the bizarre open cab with storm apron and protective cowling, insisted upon by Westminster’s managing director, who felt that enclosed cabs were unhealthy! The Westminster Omnibus Co. was taken over by LPTB in 1934, but the bus was barely operated by LPTB, as SM1, before being withdrawn from Sunbeam Rad Badge 2service.
In 1931, a Sikh chassis was modified as a trolleybus, which was an immediate success, creating a whole new passenger market which the bus chassis never penetrated.
To the right is the cheery radiator badge which Sunbeam used on their vehicles, which would have looked nice on the Sikh’s chrome one.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

Fascinating stuff!!
Dodson did, though build for operators outside London, albeit in small numbers.
Wolverhampton`s Guys come to mind.
Thanks.

Me again. I really enjoyed this post about Sunbeam. Was the open cab not something to do with London Police regulations at the time, where glass screens were deemed dangerous? Not sure, just asking!

John Whitaker

The LGOC had fought and won the windscreen battle in about 1931. It produced its prototype, it with a windscreen, but with an outside staircase, and ran it about a bit with a windscreen, the first. There was not fuss;maybe the notoriously conservative Metropolitan Police Commissioners didn’t notice! It then produced the first 49 production ones and the MPC DID notice, banning further production with windscreens, but not insisting that those already produced be converted. After about 12-18 months, the MPC, presumably being convinced that they weren’t a safety hazard, relented and windscreens were fitted retrospectively to later ones, which, after the first 150, then sported inside staircases, but were not objected to! Even in the mid-30’s the MPC stopped a production run of Central Area (red) single-deck Q’s with open front entrances in front of the front wheels, after an initial run of them was on the road! There was worry about passengers falling out and going under the wheels. I’m not sure that this was ever a problem, although it was resolved years later with knifejack doors.

Chris Hebbron

You are right, John, that Dodson did work other than for London ‘Independents’ (I actually feel that that were more against ‘The Combine’ the LGOC/Underground Group and therefore supported the ‘little feller’!). You mention work they did for Wolverhampton Corporation Guys, but, by coincidence, only today did I discover that Dodson bodied some thirty-odd AEC Regents delivered to Brighton, Hove & District in 1935. They were part of Thos. Tilling group, which, with its London roots, would have been well aware of Dodson’s existence. I’d love to see a photo of these buses to see the design of bodywork. Must start ferreting!

Chris Hebbron

Apropos the MPC and their regulations I was always under the impression that STL/STDs had no cab door was due these being declared verboten by the MPC. However the Sunbeam clearly has a door to its cab

Chris Hough

London Transport inherited quite a few buses with cab (half) doors and left them in situ, Chris.
I think the lack of doors in their own designs was more a case of being able to store buses in their garages closer to each other without doors. When RT1 came along, they’d got around the problem by having a sliding door inside of the bodywork line. With it, deservedly, came more comfort for drivers. STL’s did have concertina-type blinds to fill the entry gap, but they could only be used to protect the empty cab from the worst elements; you couldn’t drive with one down as it impaired vision. You’d have needed to be observant, and lucky, to ever see one down, though!

Chris Hebbron

Chris. It would be great to see a picture of the Brighton Tilling Regents with Dodson body. Dodson built some of the ST bodies for Tilling to Tilling design, I believe, but not the STL batch as far as I know. Dodson would make an interesting article in its own right if it could be researched. Small numbers of bodies were built for several municipalities as well as Wolverhampton, including Derby, Leeds. Another article would be the Pirates in London, with complete fleet lists. Dodson were by no means the only builders here, as Birch, Strachan and Brown etc. were also involved. Must get down to some homework!

John Whitaker

Yes, John, please do!
Meanwhile, I will do some digging to see if I can trace photos of any of the BH&D Dodson-bodies AEC Regents.

Chris Hebbron

Chris. The complete registration for Westminster Sunbeam Sikh (H36/28R) in photo (taken at Edmonton) is JJ 9215. It was licensed to run on London Routes 76 & 73, entering service FEB 1933 as the largest running London bus at the time. It was the last bus design by Dodson Ltd. before exiting the business in April, 1933. The Dodson family originally made horse buses from the mid 1800’s until motorized buses came about after 1900. I’m related to the family and researching the business so I really enjoy finding posts and photographs like this!

Phil Dodson

I’m sure it’s true what they say – history begins on your birthday.
I’m a child of the fifties and although I stretch it to post-war forties, it really all starts for me in 1952 with two of my favourite batches of buses, the STD PD2s and Regent IIIs, delivered in 1952.
I then began to back track – through the excellent British Buses since 1900 and John Aldridge. Sunbeam attracted my attention because they were MOTORbuses and John Aldridge implies that the quality of build was so high that they were too good and therefore too expensive for the general market. Likewise with Dodson bodies. No PSV historian is ignorant of the name, but few of us will have had first hand experience of their products.
When some of us are in our wheelchairs going misty eyed about AEC, Leyland, Roe, Weymann – or whoever – what will that mean to our grandsons and granddaughters? Food for thought – or is just too depressing?

David Oldfield

How wonderful that a modern Dodson is researching the business!. I do hope the findings become available, as I have recently come across several instances of Dodson bodywork outside London.
Cedes Stoll tracklesses.
Peterborough and District Leylands.
Derby Guy Invincibles?
Some of the ancestor fleets of EYMS in Hull
Wolverhampton Corpn. (plenty there)
Many more mid 1920s on Dennis 4 ton and Leyland G series type vehicles. Leeds Corporation.
There must be many more out there…feel like searching and telling everyone?

John Whitaker

I’d say, Phil, that we are as delighted to find a member of the Dodson family as you are to find the posting. Maybe you could post a potted history of this well-regarded company, with a couple of photos, for us all to enjoy. If the above photo was the last Dodson design, the company went out on a real high – it is very attractive. Did the company come to a complete halt in 1933, or did it have other irons in the fire which kept it going?
[Thx for the full registration – now updated].

Chris Hebbron

Just thought of 2 more Dodson customers.
Hastings Tramways
West Bridgford UDC (1914 Dennis)
There has to be many more.

John Whitaker

On the Dodson theme, Portsmouth Corporation started it’s motorbus fleet with 10 Thornycroft J’s in 1919, which had locally built Wadham bodies. But in 1926/27, these were rebodied by the Corporation, using ex-LGOC B-type bodies, built by Dodson. They also bought a complete B-type, with a Dodson body (this did not last long).
On withdrawal by c.1929/30, one of the Thornycrofts (No.10, BK 2977) with it’s Dodson body was preserved, and is fortunately still with us. It is located at the Milestones Museum in Basingstoke, and looks extremely attractive in a contemporary setting of a street scene with other Thornycroft commercial vehicles of that era.

Michael Hampton

Re the Dodson theme, the preserved Portsmouth Thronycroft J at Basingstoke is registered BK 2986 (not BK 2977). Apologies for error in my memory of the batch, which was 1-10 (BK 2977-BK 2986).

Michael Hampton

Chris. Christopher Dodson retired and closed up the business in 1933 due to LPTB Act which took away his "Independent" bus operator customers. The LGOC had hindered bus competition and his business for years which is why he was so devoted to supporting the needs of independent operators and against "The Combine" group as you mentioned.
Dodson Ltd. also built trolleybus bodies from 1912-1933, mainly for Keighley, Wolverhampton and Derby. Christopher’s brothers also started a bus service on the Isle of Wight in 1921, Dodson & Campbell Ltd, which became Dodson Bros Ltd/Vectis Bus Co. in 1923. Christopher was also a director in that company which merged with Southern Railway in 1929 to become Southern Vectis. All their buses had Dodson built bodies of course up until 1932 when they retired and sold their interest in the company.

John interestingly mentioned that Hastings Tramways was a Dodson customer. Dodson built 8 trolleybuses for Hastings in 1928, one of which,(DY 4965), still survives today. Restored and known as "Happy Harold" it has been fitted with a diesel engine to run as a bus. There is a short 1928 film clip of when the 8 Hastings trolleybuses were put into service that can be watched at this You Tube link.
"Happy Harold" is the trolleybus observed on right side from :18 to :43 seconds into the film clip.

Phil Dodson

Thanks Phil for the Utube film!!! How about that!!!
Please inform us all when you have completed your investigations. I would love to know of all the Dodson bodies, wherever they went. They had a very distinctive air about them, and the Sikh was by no means the only modernity item produced. Wolverhampton,s 1929 batch of Guy BTX had a much more modern body style, as did some other London Pirates. There was a Maudslay 4 wheel double decker with one of them if I remember, dated 1932/3

John Whitaker

29/08/12 – 10:33

Fascinating thread. I wonder if anyone has information regarding the Westminster livery carried on the Sunbeam Sikh? Was it red/cream?

Colin James

29/08/12 – 12:15

Maybe, if Phil Dodson sees this, he could tell us. Looking at this vehicle again, it’s got to be one of my favourite buses ever. What a shame that Dodson packed up and never built any more of them.
Could someone with DVLA access give the subsequent history of the vehicle?

Chris Hebbron

29/08/12 – 14:54

Didn’t it pass to Derby Corporation for a short time, or was that another one?

John Whitaker

30/08/12 – 07:03

The PSVC lists JJ 9215 as withdrawn by London Transport in 1934; to G J Dawson, SW9 (dealer) 5/35; Wigan & District Subsistence Production Society, Wigan, 1/37; G Pudifer, Liverpool, 9/39; J Routledge, Seaforth, Liverpool (dealer) 11/39, and scrapped.
According to Blacker, Lunn, & Westgate (London’s Buses Volume One – The Independent Era 1922-1934) Westminster’s livery was red and cream. The absence of a windscreen was apparently a peculiarity of one of the managing director, Mr Rich, who thought that windscreens were unsafe and that the draughts they created were bad for drivers’ health. JJ 9215 was reported to be a smooth runner but had a tendency to boil quickly.
There was a second Sikh built in 1931 with an older style of Dodson body for the Sphere Omnibus Co, but it did not enter service with them, although it was successfully submitted to the Police for testing. It became UK 7456 and was demonstrated by Sunbeam to Mansfield District, Midland General, and Derby, Birmingham, and Northampton Corporations, and was scrapped in 1940. Presumably this is the vehicle to which John refers.

Michael Wadman

31/08/12 – 07:35

Thanks muchly, Michael, for answering the queries Colin, John and I raised and even more!

Chris Hebbron

31/08/12 – 09:37

So sad, the number of manufacturers (vis Gilford and Dodson) who failed through no fault of their own, but rather because their customer base simple dried up or disappeared. What price a Euro 5 Gilford with Dodson body?

David Oldfield

31/08/12 – 09:38

Yes Michael, many thanks for the info on the 2 Sikhs.
There is something truly magnificent about the "big buses" of this era, and I am reminded of that marvellous machine introduced by Wolverhampton Corporation in (1929?). Again, with a Dodson body, but a 6 wheeled petrol electric Tilling Stevens. I only have a photo in a book; otherwise I would post it !

John Whitaker

31/08/12 – 16:02

The Westminster Omnibus Co. Sunbeam Sikh SM1 was withdrawn by the LPTB on 10 July 1934. This site gives a wealth of detail about the bus models of the Sunbeam company:- www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum  In all its product ranges, bicycles, motorcycles, cars and buses, the Sunbeam company was synonymous with exceptionally high quality in keeping with the principles of the founder, John Marston, and almost all components were produced in house. This was reflected in the retail prices, and, in the depressed markets of the inter war years, sales were limited. The various parts of the Sunbeam group fell into different hands, though the name lived on for some models of motorcycle, motor scooter, car, and, of course, trolleybus. At least the trolley manufacture, ultimately part of Guy, remained in Wolverhampton to the end.

Roger Cox

16/12/13 – 07:23

Re John W/Michael W’s post on 29/8/12, I’ve found other, slightly conflicting info on the Derby Corporation Sikh. No. 44 was an ex-Sunbeam demonstrator, registration UK 7456 (chassis K10123) which dated from 1929. Its Dodson body seating was a smaller H35/32R, presumably to an earlier style, since the Westminster one was larger and the 1933 style. It went into service with Derby in 1933 and was also withdrawn in 1939.

Chris Hebbron

16/12/13 – 09:25

Thanks Chris for the TSM and Sunbeam detail which I have noted. You are correct in saying the Derby Sunbeam was of the earlier Dodson body style. I have seen a photo but cannot remember where it was. In "Looking at Buses" by G. Hilditch (I Think!)
Loads of Senior Moments!
I am now following Thornycroft. Have you seen the magnificent 6 wheeler photo on the Thornycroft site, with a camel roof body, which is a bit "Hall Lewis" looking. Also, trying to unearth photos of the 4 wheel BC Boadicea model as supplied to Southampton etc. This explosion of competition from 1929 to 1932 provides enough material for someone to write a book.
It would need someone a lot more technical than me though, a mere ageing enthusiast!

John Whitaker

17/12/13 – 06:51

The engine of the Sikh was an advanced and powerful overhead valve unit of 7.98 litres, developing 142 bhp at 2,400 rpm., which drove via a friction clutch into a four speed gearbox. The same engine was fitted to the more successful Pathan single deck model. Such a powerful engine must have given the Sikh and the Pathan remarkable road performances by any standard, certainly well above the norm for the early 1930s, though probably at a cost in fuel consumption. The Westminster Sikh weighed 7 tons 5cwt 3qtr, which seems remarkably light, and entered service in London in the week commencing 20th February 1933; the absence of a windscreen was entirely due to the rigid opinions of the Westminster company’s managing director, as the Met Police had capitulated on cab windscreens by this time. Only three Sikhs were made, the Westminster one being the second in production. In view of the imminent introduction of the London Passenger Transport Act on 1st July 1933, it is surprising that Westminster should have purchased such an expensive piece of capital equipment at so late a date. Almost inevitably, the solitary Sikh SM 1 did not survive long in the standardised world of the LPTB, being withdrawn in 1934 and disposed of on 16 May 1935. Its subsequent fate is unclear. As Michael Wadman and Chris Hebbron state above, the very first Sikh was cleared by the Met Police for use by the Sphere Omnibus Company on routes 73 and 76, but it never entered service, becoming instead a Sunbeam demonstrator and vanishing in the early years of WW2. The third Sikh was converted to a trolleybus, and opened up a much more successful market, though the original Sunbeam Company was not to see much of the benefit. In 1934, STD (for Sunbeam Talbot Darracq as then was) went into receivership, and the Rootes group picked up most of the assets.

Roger Cox

18/12/13 – 06:21

John, the best source of information on Thornycroft is the volume published in 2001 in the Ian Allen Transport Library (ISBN 0 7110 28141) written by the ever dependable Alan Townsin, who once worked for the firm himself. Details and photos of the bus models are there aplenty. Unfortunately, the book has no photos of a Southampton BC Forward, but there is a picture of Southampton’s rare HC six wheeler and another of a Daring. A picture of a United BC Forward may be found on this site under ‘Best Bits – A United Line Up’.

Roger Cox

18/12/13 – 14:14

Thanks Roger. Will look up the Thornycroft book, especially with the HC 6 wheeler being there! I remember them having English Electric bodies very similar to the Pompey Karriers.
Fascinating era to study!

John Whitaker

 J 9215_lrVehicle reminder shot for this posting

06/12/14 – 06:49

Sunbeam Sikhs are rare: photos even rarer! The link below shows a 1931 Midland District Sikh of 1931. What a dramatic difference is demonstrated by a mere two-year gap! //midlandgeneralomnibus.weebly.com/mansfield-district-buses.html

Chris Hebbron

Bournemouth Corporation – Sunbeam MS2 – BRU 8 – 200

Bournemouth Corporation - Sunbeam MS2 - BRU 8 - 200
Copyright Ray Soper

Bournemouth Corporation
1935
Sunbeam MS2
Park Royal O69R

This shot is from the Ray Soper ‘Gallery’ contribution A Trolleybus tour in Bournemouth click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

16/07/13 – 07:58

This looks like a ‘special’ on the Christchurch turntable. The turntable still exists in an office car park.

Grahame Arnold

n

Bournemouth Corporation – Sunbeam MS2 – ALJ 986 – 202

Bournemouth Corporation - Sunbeam MS2 - ALJ 986 - 202
Copyright Ray Soper

Bournemouth Corporation
1935
Sunbeam MS2
Park Royal O69R

This shot is from the Ray Soper ‘Gallery’ contribution A Trolleybus tour in Bournemouth click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

16/07/13 – 08:02

Lovely shot of the ’38’ summer-only circular service travelling along Barrack Road. These services were aimed at visitors although locals like me also used them if convenient.
The regular year-round ‘circulars’ in Bournemouth at that time were routes 33 and 34, usually the preserve of the B.U.T. trolleys

Grahame Arnold

Bournemouth Corporation – Sunbeam MF2B – WRU 261 – 261

Bournemouth Corporation - Sunbeam MF2B - WRU 261 - 261
Copyright Ray Soper

Bournemouth Corporation
1958
Sunbeam MF2B
Weymann H63D

This shot is from the Ray Soper ‘Gallery’ contribution A Trolleybus tour in Bournemouth click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

17/07/13 – 06:50

A nice view from the upper deck of a passing vehicle. This trolleybus is at a stop in Avenue Road where the Winton & Charmister trolleybus routes all departed from. The Council kiosk behind stood for many years, and beneath it were the local public WCs. Further up Avenue Road were the BCT offices at ‘Fairlight Glen’; this address appeared on the BCT Public timetables of the period.
Note the lovely GPO stamp machines and letterbox behind the bus stop; all very modern at that time. 4d for second-class!
Avenue Road was one-way at that time and had several trolleybus stops. It also had a ‘passing loop’ in the overhead to enable ‘through’ trolleybuses to pass those waiting at the stops. Route 25 ran along this road on its way from Westbourne to Boscombe. This bus on the 26 would have turned via ‘The Triangle’ just up the road.

Grahame Arnold

Bournemouth Corporation – Sunbeam MF2B – 296 LJ – 296

Bournemouth Corporation - Sunbeam MF2B - 296 LJ - 296
Copyright Ray Soper

Bournemouth Corporation
1961
Sunbeam MF2B
Weymann H65D

This shot is from the Ray Soper ‘Gallery’ contribution A Trolleybus tour in Bournemouth click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

26/04/12 – 11:35

This very vehicle No.296 was the first to enter service with the light green lining in 1962. For more detail see my comment here. 

mf2b

17/07/13 – 06:48

This lovely shot is taken at the upper end of Gervis Place, I would say, or possibly opposite the Pavilion. The ‘Christchurch’ routes all departed from this end of the Square

Grahame Arnold

05/11/13 – 10:34

I have a photo of myself driving bus no 188 in November 1973 which was a Daimler. also a photo of bus no 213 a Leyland Atlantean. It was my last day as a driver so had some photos taken as a keepsake if anyone would like a copy please forward e.mail address.

John Kilroe