There has also been a 1961 Rotherham Corporation Bridgemaster on site (link here) and the easy way to tell them apart was the front off side mudguard. It is easier to show than describe so the close up on the left is the Renown and the one on the right is the Bridgemaster.
As you can see the Renown’s mudguard follows through the body where as the Bridgemaster’s body goes over the mudguard and this was always the case with these two buses. This Renown has the AEC code of 3B3RA which meant it had an AEC 9.6 litre six cylinder engine with a 4 speed synchromesh gearbox and air brakes. There was only one alternative the 3B2RA and the only difference was it had the Monocontrol direct selection gearbox. One thing I have noticed which I find strange is that this Renown’s drivers cab door slides backwards on the outside of the body to open it normally the door slid forwards inside the cab.
If you look at the position of the cab door opening in relation to the front wheel it is obvious why the sliding door is external. If it was internal the wheel arch leaves nowhere for it to go, unless the door were made unreasonably shallow to pass over the top of the mudguard. For the same reason Lodekkas and other low-height buses always had hinged cab doors. The only exception seems to be the Albion Lowlander, as bodied by NCME and Alexander, where the coachbuilders raised the cab ceiling above the level of the main upper saloon floor (and raised the foremost seats to perch on top of the cab). That gave sufficient headroom to allow an internally-sliding cab door of conventional style.
David Jones
I’m not absolutely certain but weren’t these the only Renowns bodied by Roe? (although obviously to a Park Royal design)
Ian Wild
Yes, Ian. As was common in the sixties and seventies, whenever Park Royal was hard pressed, they subcontracted to their (smaller) Yorkshire partner. Geoff Lumb’s excellent book on C H Roe records in words and pictures that the Rotherham Renowns were built at Crossgates.
David Oldfield
11/09/12 – 06:43
I think I have a photo somewhere in my possession that show an EYMS Renown at Roes too, or am I dreaming there?
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1966 AEC Renown 3B3R Park Royal H38/30F
This was taken at Flamborough on 12 June 1968 in glorious sunshine and about to head off on a Bridlington cross town service. The top deck has the characteristic East Yorkshire inward taper to allow safe passage through the North Bar at Beverley and what an elegant and distinctive livery!! This must have been the last batch of front engined buses for East Yorkshire.
I know that the AV590/AH590 engines were a little suspect and that the Regent III/RT was better regarded but I still don’t think you can do much better than the Regent V. [Sheffield’s certainly acquitted themselves well in the mountains close to – and in – the Peak District.] After the commercially unsuccessful Bridgemaster came the low floor Regent V – otherwise known as the Renown. I was particularly fond of the North Western beasts which batted down the A34 during my time as a student in Manchester. How true, though, about the elegant livery of EYMS. The Bridgemaster was ungainly and almost ugly. The similar body on the Renown was just different enough that I think it avoided the vices of its big brother. It was the right bus at the wrong time, though. Time and the Atlantean overhauled it – and then came the Fleetline as well.
David Oldfield
Some of the 1966 East Yorkshire Renowns were swapped for some older Fleetlines with the Northern General Group in the early days of the NBC. Many of these ended up in NBC yellow as they ran in the Tyne and Wear PTE area. The sharp eyed may spot one in the film version of the Likely Lads
Chris Hough
Quite prescient, that. Many big fleets dual sourced and many, like Sheffield, went over to Daimler Fleetlines from AEC Regent Vs and Renowns. Although AEC deckers lasted to the end (1968/9), like most other half-cabs, they were a spent force by 1966 – very few being delivered in the last few years. [Regrettably, much the same thing happened with the Reliance about ten years later. Killed off for an inferior life-form. Tragic!]
David Oldfield
I always thought the Renowns bodied by builders outside the AEC/PRV group were very handsome buses. The East Lancs examples of Leigh Leicester and West Bridgford spring to mind The later NCME examples used by City of Oxford were also a smart vehicle.
Chris Hough
I remember reading, when AEC’s intention to build the Renown was first announced, that it was to replace the Regent V as well as the Bridgemaster. At a time of dwindling sales for front-engined buses, rationalisation did make a sort of sense. I imagine that the reason it didn’t come to pass was because, once built, the Renown was probably too pricey for operators who didn’t really need the low floor, and would have driven traditional Regent V customers to Leyland.
Peter Williamson
Chris. I couldn’t agree with you more about Leigh and W Bridgford’s East Lancs Renowns. very handsome. Peter. You’re probably right about the expense. Bristol had a guaranteed customer base and so achieved it with the Lodekka. Strange that Bristol managed two world beaters (Lodekka and RE) in particular market segments where the two giants (AEC and Leyland) could hack it.
David Oldfield
04/10/11 – 21:06
I was at Northern’s Percy Main depot at the time the Renown’s arrived. By that time most of our half cabs had gone, but we still had a few PD2’s & 3’s. They all had sliding cab doors on the inside that opened towards the front, however, the cab door on a Renown is on the outside and opens back over, a few drivers found to their cost that when going through the wash the cab door had to be held firmly shut or the brushes could quite easily open it and leave the driver a bit on the damp side.
North Western Road Car 1964 AEC Renown 3B3RA Park Royal H42/30F
This former North Western bus still in its original livery but with SELNEC (Cheshire) fleetnames is at the Norfolk Arms terminus in Glossop in May 1972 not long after North Western was split between SELNEC, Trent and Crosville. This was one of the second batch of these buses bought by North Western in this case with forced ventilation evidenced by the lack of opening windows. I wonder how effective this was in dispersing the cigarette smog more or less standard on the upper decks of buses in those days. I pass this location from time to time and wonder at how there could have been a busy bus terminus at such a busy location.
The Norfolk Arms was busy and similar to the LPTB Hounslow trolleys, the traffic signals were controlled by the driver when ready to depart. I think it was mounted on the pole just by the driver’s cab in the picture. This turned the High St W and E, Victoria St and Norfolk St lights to red and then the bus would sweep out. I have it on good authority this led to at least one conductor being left behind. The old North Westerns from Glossop had a few characters.
Mike Franks
28/08/12 – 18:03
I felt bereft, as a student in Manchester, missing my AECs from STD, SUT and the local coach operators. Luckily North Western plied down the Wilmslow and Palatine Roads in student land. It might have been a Fleetline or a Loline but my day was always made when one of these Renowns turned up to take me home. These PRV bodies have, unfairly in my opinion, been called ugly. Compared with Bridgemasters – especially the forward entrance version – these were positively beautiful, and in their own right were better looking than many contemporaries.
David Oldfield
28/08/12 – 18:04
When NBC was set up many fleets were shuffled around like decks of cards, and Northern General was no exception. At Percy Main ‘Tynemouth and Wakefields’ we had a number of Daimler Fleetlines sent off to different areas and got all sorts in return, among the number were six Renown’s that came from East Yorkshire’s fleet. I was in the minority but I quite liked them, especially if you got one on the likes of the 306 or 308 where you had some long gaps between stops, but they could be hard work on some of the town service routes that stopped at every other lamp post.
Ronnie Hoye
29/08/12 – 07:59
I have to agree with David that this version of the Park Royal body, combined with North Western’s style of applying the livery, is FAR better than the version on the Bridgemaster or on Southampton’s Regents and PD2As. Those things were little better than shoe boxes with windows. It’s not far off the style Oxford had on their …CWL Regents, and it really was quite good!
Pete Davies
29/08/12 – 08:00
I agree with David that the Park Royal Renowns were a big improvement on the Bridgemaster but I wouldn’t go as far as to say they were beautiful. The only Renowns that can justify that accolade in my opinion were the East Lancs bodied versions operated by Leigh Corporation. There were both rear and forward entrance versions in a wonderful blue and cream livery. Fortunately one of the forward entrance vehicles is still with us at Boyle Street museum in Manchester.
Philip Halstead
29/08/12 – 08:02
Wearing my driver’s hat, I can imagine a Fleetlines’s attraction for stop start over a manual AEC – much as I personally prefer the latter. Significantly, the North Western Renowns had been “downgraded” from long trunk routes, only to be reinstated by Crosville when they had taken over the Cheshire operations. They claimed they were better out on the open road and could maintain “a head of steam”!
David Oldfield
29/08/12 – 10:17
Philip. I did say compared with the Bridgemaster. I would definitely agree with you about the Leigh buses. I used them on the Warrington service when I was doing my post-graduate teacher training at Padgate in the mid ’70s. One or two were still in blue and cream but orange and white was the order of the day. [For new vehicles, I think SELNEC/GMT orange and white was actually quite good even though it did spoil older vehicles in “better” municipal colours.]
David Oldfield
29/08/12 – 12:24
As I’ve already said I quite liked the Renown’s, but by the time they came to us most of the routes for which they would have been ideally suited had either gone over to, or were in the process of being changed to OPO, as for them having “a head of steam” they could clip on a bit, and unlike the PD3’s, where after a prolonged spell of stop start braking where the brakes become a tad warm and tend to fade, you could guarantee the Renown’s would stop when asked to.
Ronnie Hoye
29/08/12 – 12:24
East Lancs also bodied Renowns for Leicester in both front and rear entrance versions on of the front entrance ones regularly appeared on the rally circuit 190 DBC 190C. My own favourite Renowns were the ones owned by East Yorks in their traditional livery complete with modified upper deck window pillars to negotiate Beverly Bar.
Chris Hough
29/08/12 – 12:26
Regarding the beautiful East Lancs-bodied Leigh Renowns, Philip Halstead mentions there is a forward entrance example preserved at the Manchester Museum. Their rear entrance Renowns were always great favourites of mine ever since I saw the front and rear view photographs of one of them in Buses Illustrated when new. In 1976 I bought 28 (1975 TJ) for preservation from GMPTE, but in the 1980’s sold it and it then passed through several subsequent owners – maintaining a very low profile in the process. Only last week I learned that it been acquired by Tony Blackman for continued preservation, and who knows…..maybe operation in his Yorkshire Heritage Buses wedding hire fleet, though I do hope that it doesn’t turn black and white in the process. The beautiful azure blue and cream Leigh livery would be very much in demand by would-be happy couples I would imagine – it would match the bridesmaids’ dresses and floral arrangements !
John Stringer
30/08/12 – 06:49
Leigh 28 at Luddenden Foot, it has been working hard this summer for Yorkshire Heritage Buses. This shot was on her first day in service and as can be seen it is in black & white John.
Geoff S
30/08/12 – 07:09
Here is a picture of fellow Renown AJA 129B in Manchester, en route to Alderley in true North Western days. I have to admit that personally I much preferred the North Western Loline IIIs to the Renowns in both appearance and performance, but it would be nice to be able to detect something of the variety and individuality of the psv designs of those times in the present day crop of tediously indistinguishable bus types.
Roger Cox
31/08/12 – 07:33
Thanks Geoff S. for sending the photo. I hadn’t realised its restoration had advanced so far, I may well then have seen it at a distance and mistaken it for the ex-Southampton Regent V. As for the livery……….I’ll say no more.
John Stringer
31/08/12 – 09:35
Black marks for the new livery, then, John?
David Oldfield
31/08/12 – 09:45
Is black a good colour for a wedding or do they do funerals as well.
Spencer
So where have you been for the past year and a bit? Have you forgot how to send emails?
Peter
31/08/12 – 12:28
It’s a dual-purpose vehicle, Spencer; white for weddings; black for funerals!
Chris Hebbron
31/08/12 – 12:29
Tony Blackman’s “new” livery is in fact that of Lockey of West Auckland, and presumably was prompted by his acquisition of a full-fronted Regent V/Park Royal which (although new to East Kent) had been operated by that famous County Durham independent. That particular vehicle also carries Lockeys titles while the rest of the heritage fleet don’t. We all have a lot to thank Tony for – in my personal case for an unforgettable ride through the Mersey Tunnel on his ex-Halifax Regent III. What a pity that his revived Halifax JOC no longer operates stage services in the original glorious livery!
Neville Mercer
31/08/12 – 12:30
I suppose so David, but the thought of how it could have looked in its proper livery leaves me feeling blue.
John Stringer
31/08/12 – 12:32
The black and cream livery used by Yorkshire heritage buses is derived from the colours on a former East Kent AEC Regent V which is in the livery of its last owner Lockey of St Helens Auckland I saw the ex Darlington Guy saloon in the livery recently and it looked very good indeed. Better in a livery than a scrap yard!
Chris Hough
02/09/12 – 07:10
The trouble with Bridgemasters and lowheight Renowns was that there was no inward tapering at the front, creating a profile that was squat and square. That’s why the Beverley Bar treatment is such an improvement – it adds a much-needed bit of shape. Don’t forget Northern Counties www.flickr.com/
Peter Williamson
03/10/12 – 06:07
I used to drive these Renowns, 127b, & 129b, in the 60s at the North Western Altrincham Depot , a nice drive but a bit on the ‘Bouncy’ side!!
Roger Williams
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
13/11/12 – 08:44
I was a summer guard with NWRCC at Glossop Garage between 1960 and 1962. It was the guard that operated the lights at the Norfolk Arms terminus and you had to be mighty quick to get back to the platform, clutching Setright and money bag to grasp the platform pole before the driver moved off. Bristol K5G’s were OK but a PD2 was fast off the mark and you held on like grim death for the swing round. Those were the days – swinging loads on the old 125 to Manchester and overloads on the 85 to Buxton on summer days. It was a great company with great mates at Glossop depot. Public service at its best!
Roger Chadwick
13/11/12 – 12:57
Roger, be thankful it was a PD2 and not a trolleybus or you’d have been left standing.
Ronnie Hoye
23/11/12 – 10:03
Roger, Myself and two colleagues have been researching the North Western driver and conductor duties. Would you have kept any information when you worked at Glossop in the 60’s
Keith Hampton
22/01/13 – 06:33
Roger, Being one of the Two colleagues that Keith refers to can you supply any names of staff at all. All part of an on going, and growing, North Western project of ours.
King Alfred Motor Services 1964 AEC Renown 3B2RA Park Royal H44/31F
595 and 596 LCG are AEC Renown 3B2RA vehicles with Park Royal H72F bodywork from the fleet of King Alfred Motor Services of Winchester, and date from 1964. They are both seen during one of the famous Running Days on 1 January 2009. Note the different applications of the livery.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
07/08/14 – 17:16
Are you sure it’s different livery and not different light? [The mirror is in a different position though.] They are a rather splendid pair. We await developments with a replacement for the New Year running days.
David Oldfield
08/08/14 – 06:02
According to the FoKAB website the event will be 3rd(eve)/4th May next year
Ian Comley
08/08/14 – 06:06
David, Thanks for your comment. Yes, it most certainly is a different green. The two photos were taken on the same day and in similar conditions. I compare it to the different applications of Aldershot & District or West Riding against Southdown.
Pete Davies
08/08/14 – 06:07
I do believe that 595 is lighter green.
Mike Morton
08/08/14 – 06:08
On my computer screen the greens look fairly similar or “why bother with two such similar colours” but on an ipad (“Retina” screen?) they look distinctly different.
Joe
08/08/14 – 06:09
Like David, I suspect that this is a trick of the light. I saw the King Alfred (R. Chisnell) fleet pretty frequently, and rode on it occasionally, when I lived in Hampshire from 1966 to 1975, and I recall only one shade of green being used. In fact, I did attend an interview in 1971 to see about a job in the Traffic Dept., but I was less than impressed with the outfit at that stage and didn’t pursue the matter. It was no surprise when it simply folded two years later.
Roger Cox
08/08/14 – 06:10
King Alfred did change their livery in the last years of operation. The upper picture of 595 LCG has the later (final) livery, all the same shade of green. The lower 596 LCG has the earlier livery with the darker shade of green at lower deck level. I think I have stated this correctly, unless the old grey cells are misfiring. (There was a coach livery too in the fifties and sixties, described as “eau-de-nil” – a sort of pale green, with a green stripe or flash related to bodywork embellishments).
Michael Hampton
13/08/14 – 07:05
According to “King Alfred Motor Services: the Story of a Winchester Family Business” (James Freeman & Robert Jowitt, Kingfisher, 1984), the later livery first appeared on the four Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2s (589-592) as a result of a mistake by the Roe paint-shop. Not only was the Brunswick green omitted from the lower panels, but the wheel centres were painted red – this was because these four vehicles followed on from a larger batch (101-125) of almost identical vehicles for West Riding, in whose livery they were mistakenly painted. Apparently, the Chisnell family (the Directors of KAMS) were quite taken with the result, and decided to adopt the simplified livery (although, I think, without the red wheel centres) as the fleet standard. This raises a number of questions! Firstly, how can a paint-shop get things so wrong? – even though the application of the KAMS livery was in the same proportions as WRAC’s surely the different destination apertures and application of KAMS fleet-names/legal lettering etc. might have suggested that the four Atlanteans concerned should have not received WRAC livery? . . . and what about final quality control? Secondly, the light green – was the KAMS light green exactly the same shade as WRAC green? – Freeman and Jowitts’ story suggests that the same light green was used on both the WRAC and KAMS buses. So. Were KAMS offered a cheaper price by Roe if they took the four Atlanteans to more-or-less West Riding specification as a follow-on order? – the bodies are more-or-less identical except for destination aperture, an extra horizontal grab-rail behind the near-side windscreen on the West Riding bodies, and the Atlantean badge on the front of the KAMS buses. Were KAMS persuaded also to use West Riding green as being very close to their own light green? . . . and was that mis-interpreted in the Roe paint-shop as an instruction to use WRAC livery, full-stop?
Crosville Motor Services 1963 AEC Renown 3B3RA Park Royal H43/32F
Despite acquiring a good number of AEC Reliance single deckers during the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, North Western Road Car Co. had opted for the Dennis Loline for its double deck purchases during that period. It then perhaps came as a surprise when in late 1963 they received eighteen AEC Renowns (964-981, VDB 964-981) with Park Royal H43/32F bodies, followed by a further fifteen (115-129, AJA 115-129B) with H42/30F bodies in 1964. However in 1972 the NWRCC depots and operations at Stockport, Oldham, Glossop, Altrincham and Urmston passed to the SELNEC PTE, a separate company – the SELNEC Cheshire Bus Company Ltd. – being created to take over these along with an appropriate number of vehicles. All other depots and operations were taken over by Crosville, except those at Buxton and Matlock which passed to Trent, and the Manchester depot which was retained as a coaching unit only before forming the basis of National Travel (North West) in 1974. The Renown fleet was divided between Crosville and SELNEC Cheshire, who soon repainted them into their own liveries. Here we see one of each – Crosville DAA501 (VDB 964) formerly 964 and SELNEC Cheshire 9122 (AJA 122B) formerly 122, posed for an enthusiasts’ visit to Northwich depot. The Crosville bus displays the recently introduced brighter green livery. AJA 122B was later withdrawn following a low bridge accident, but sold to Churchbridge Motors of Cannock, Staffordshire, who had it repaired by Lawton Coachworks and ran it in their blue and white livery for a time.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
05/06/17 – 07:00
The change in vehicle policy by certain BET companies that became evident from about 1960 derived from BET central purchasing decisions which saw virtually all manufacturers other than AEC and Leyland being “delisted” as approved suppliers of heavyweight chassis, though Daimler was added later when the merits of the Fleetline in comparison with the early Atlantean became apparent. The last Dennis Lolines for North Western, which were delivered early in 1962, would have been ordered about a year before, and (excluding Aldershot & District) they were the the last company orders for that chassis. The A&D case is rather special in that the shareholding for that firm was split into three roughly equal parts, BET, THC and private ownership, which allowed a degree of independent policy in purchasing matters, hence the arrival of Lolines up to 1965.
Roger Cox
06/06/17 – 06:58
To amplify and expand on Roger’s comments, NWRCC’s purchase of the Renowns was the end of a saga started when, as part of he 1947 Transport Act, North Western found itself in the BET camp on 1/1/1948. Denied of its beloved Gardner engined Bristols, the last of which arrived in 1950,it worked with Atkinson to build a Bristol/Gardner clone. When the first small batch proved successful it applied to BET for a sanction to buy 100 more. When this was denied and NWRCC found themselves “stuck” with the groups AEC/Leyland purchasing policy, it had already decided to rebody the bulk of its Bristols and Gardner engined Guys. With double deckers forming the minority of the fleet the rebodied Bristols and Guys were added to by small batches of PD2s. By 1958 something more modern was needed and using Aldershot and District’s purchase of Dennis Lolines as a precedent, bought two batches of the Lodekka clone at a time when BET’s low height double decker preference was the Bridgemaster. Given the poor response to the Bridgemaster, AEC refined its ideas and produced the Renown. By this time many BET companies had bought the low height version of the Atlantean and NWRCC had tried both Atlantean and Fleetline demonstrators. With its low height potential, a straight through upper deck gangway and, more importantly, a Gardner engine, the Fleetline was NWRCC’s choice. For the third time in just over a decade the company found itself at odds with BET’s policy of ordering Leylands and AECs. Whilst the Atkinson episode ended with NWRCC’s Chief Engineer resigning, 1962 saw the order for Fleetlines agreed. But there was a quid pro quo. BET had discount arrangements with both AEC and Leyland and the take up of Renowns had not been enough to meet agreed targets. The first two Fleetline orders were reduced from the numbers required, the numbers being made up with Renowns and, with NWRCC’s single deck policy from 1962 being wedded to the Leyland Leopard, the company took a large batch of AEC Reliances which were offset for discount purposes against the reluctance of BET companies to purchase the Renown. As it turned out, the Renowns were very satisfactory. They also looked good in the Crosville livery as shown, the black wheels and mudguards contrasting with the green.
Phil Blinkhorn
07/06/17 – 05:35
I never realised the unusual financial makeup of A&D, Roger. And London Transport’s is another one. I assume it was in some sort of public ownership, yet it seemed to have shareholders, because Frank Pick resigned from his post in 1940 because he felt the they were not getting a fair deal at that time. If anybody can shed light on this, I’d appreciate it.
Chris Hebbron
07/06/17 – 05:37
A few extra points to Phil’s comprehensive comment. North Western was set up in 1924 when BAT and Tilling, who were then operating together in harmony, reallocated their resources in the area by forming the new company centred on Stockport. In practice, the Tilling philosophy prevailed in operating matters, and this was reflected in vehicle purchasing policies. Tilling-Stevens models were favoured during the late 1920s until 1931, by which time Tilling had ended its financial involvement with the Maidstone maker and acquired the Bristol Tramways & Carriage Company together with its manufacturing arm. Under Tilling’s abrasive new Chairman, J.F. Heaton, Bristol became the preferred chassis supplier for Tilling companies, including North Western, who adopted the make as standard from 1936. In 1942, the fractious association of BAT/BET and Heaton finally disintegrated, and companies were reallocated between the two groups. Rather surprisingly, given the strong Tilling direction of its management policies, North Western was allotted to the BET empire, but apart from some Guy wartime utilities, Bristol continued to be the chosen chassis make until nationalisation led to the withdrawal of that supplier from the open market. As Phil indicates above, North Western sought a “Bristol/Gardner clone” by approaching Atkinson, but BET top brass were having none of it, and the company had to conform with the AEC/Leyland regime of its group masters. Quite how North Western managed to succeed in its choice of the Dennis Loline (I quibble at the description “Lodekka clone” – the Loline III in particular incorporated several design improvements over the Bristol) I know not, but the Loline proved to be a good machine for North Western. More might well have been ordered had BET not enforced its AEC/Leyland diktat. Another factor could have been the decision taken by Dennis in 1962 to withdraw the Loline from the market, but this might well have been a chicken and egg issue influenced by the enforcement of BET central policies, leaving Dennis with only the Municipal and Independent markets at its disposal. Dennis revoked that idea very quickly, and continued to supply the Loline up to 1967. A comparison of the respective merits of the Loline and the Renown inevitably reflects one’s personal preferences, but in only one feature can the Renown claim an advantage – the incorporation of a synchromesh gearbox making life easier for the driver. On the other hand, the Loline was offered with optional four or five speed gearboxes, and North Western had examples of both. The Renown came with four speeds only, and the North Western ones seem to have had quite a high rear axle ratio which might have left rather wide gaps between the gears on the road. Having driven the Loline III in service with A&D, I am well acquainted with the model’s refined qualities. My experiences of Bridgemasters and Renowns are limited to modest trips as a passenger on the City of Oxford examples, and the Renown seemed to give a rather pitchy ride quality. The harsh engine noise, screaming gearbox note and juddery clutch action reminded me of the closely related Regent V type that I did drive around Halifax. The design was inferior also in that, in the somewhat tortuous driveline, the separate location of the gearbox on the offside behind the driver’s cab dictated the intrusive positioning of the staircase into the entrance platform. I remember the slightly sunken lower deck gangway of the Bridgemaster (like the LD Lodekka and Loline I and II) but cannot now recall if this feature was true also of the Renown – the Loline III had a completely flat floor throughout. (Like much in life, you pays your money and you takes your choice, but I know which I prefer.)
You are quite right, Chris. The London Passenger Transport Board financial structure was not the same as that of outright nationalisation, which did not occur until the London Transport Executive was set up on 1st January 1948. When the LPTB was formed in 1933, the companies taken over, notably the Underground Group and Tilling’s London operations, were “bought” partially with cash and partially by the issue of interest bearing stock – C stock – authorised by the enabling Act, which meant that those former businesses continued to earn yields from their holdings. However, by 1938, the net financial performance of the Board was so weak (partly because of the truly massive investment in high standard Underground equipment and buildings, bus fleet renewal, and a serious strike in 1937) that the future of the entire LPTB concept was temporarily placed in doubt. In the previous two years the Board paid only 4% instead of the agreed rate of 5.1% on the C stock held by the former transport operators, and suggestions were made that a receiver should be appointed run LPTB matters. In fact, the stockholders had not lost any capital value on their holdings as the purchasing terms in 1933 had been somewhat generous. Evolving international events in the months following, which escalated into WW2, led to attention being directed elsewhere, though clearly Frank Pick was not mollified. In the postwar years, London Transport became a component of the Labour government’s nationalisation programme.
Roger Cox
08/06/17 – 07:57
Roger, when I used to hang around Charles St in the late 1950s/early 1960s, I got to know a good number of people in the garage, workshops and offices. In those days there was a culture of encouraging young enthusiasts and I was told many tales by people who had served with the company from pre-war days. From what I was told, the company fought hard to be moved from BET to the Tilling empire once the ramifications of the 1947 Transport Act became clear and at one time was led to believe that a transfer would take place. The story goes that either Crosville or Cumberland, both major Leyland users, would take NWRCC’s place. Now I have never been able to prove the truth of the story with documentary evidence but given the sources, the enthusiasm of NWRCC for Bristol products and its continuing attempts to thwart BET’s purchasing policies it has a ring of truth. As far as calling the Loline a Lodekka clone is concerned, I understood all chassis were produced under licence and whilst the MK3 was very much a Dennis vehicle, the arrangement held. I doubt that NWRCC would have ordered any more Lolines. Its surrounding BET companies were already using Atlanteans and the Fleetline was on the wish list of some of them. Dennis’s temporary withdrawal of the type was probably co-incidental given the Fleetline trials prior to the withdrawal. As I said, and this comes from conversations as late as 1965, the Renowns were a quid pro quo situation and were not a Loline substitute.
Philip Blinkhorn
11/06/17 – 06:08
Chris, I think the last straw for Frank Pick was the compensation enforced by the government for taking control of the railways in wartime. The arrangements for repairs, including war damage, were also harsh. The railways accepted these conditions reluctantly but without protest as fears of an invasion were very much to the fore at the time. Bus services were also slashed with little thought at the outset of the differing conditions of the operators.
David Wragg
09/10/19 – 06:31
Just to add a couple of comments :- On the split of the Company 964 to 969 and 972 to 981 passed to Crosville, whilst 970 and 971 went to Selnec Cheshire. The Selnec Renown carried fleet number 1922 and not 9122. I believe the renumbering of the batch took place after the formation of GMT.
Leekensian
10/10/19 – 05:20
When I first started work the morning journey to Manchester on the 31 was always operated by North Western. Either by any of the Lolines, Renowns or Fleetlines. Without the best and fastest journeys were always those when one the Alexander Bodied Lolines were allocated with Renown operated journeys not far behind on performance
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1954 AEC Reliance MU3RV202 Park Royal C41C
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Halifax Coaches” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1955 AEC Reliance MU3RV462 Park Royal C41C
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Halifax Coaches” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV1409 Burlingham C41C
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Halifax Coaches” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
My first black & white photo and what a good one it is, on the face of it this bus looks like any normal “AEC Reliance” of 1964 but believe you me when it comes to Hansons nothing is what it seems. This bus is actually a rebodied “AEC Reliance” registration JCX 754 dating from 1955 which had a Plaxton C41C body. Hansons it seems made a point of getting there money”s worth out of the chassis they owned by rebodying them, nothing wrong with that in Yorkshire, in fact it is quite commendable. On saying all that the bus pictured here was sold along with the bus service to Huddersfield Corporation as fleet number 83 on the 1st Oct 1969 which is when I think Hansons got out of the bus business. I don”t think it would be very long before this bus was on route to the scrap yard as I shouldn”t imagine many drivers would put up with the crash gearbox and the heavy steering, especially both at the same time. Correction to previous sentence. I have just crossed referenced with an Huddersfield Corporation fleet list and found out that this bus was passed on to W.Y.P.T.E. on the 1st of April 1974 as fleet number 4082 (but it was never numbered) but at least it did 5 years service with Huddersfield. I have a photo coming up soon where an Hansons 1948 “AEC Regal II or III” with a Duple C32F body becomes an 1958 “AEC Regent III” via an 1953 Plaxtons FC33F, you couldn”t make it up really, but when Hansons got involved, it happened. I have quite a few Hansons photos and believe you me researching them is not an easy task as they do like to rebody and re-register at the same time but my thanks go to the Huddersfield Buses Website for all the information I have gathered. Photos of the above bus with its Duple body can be found on the above site, but you will need to be a bit of a scrolling wizard with a 17ins screen to find it, but it is well worth it when you do.
Yelloway Motor Services 1965 AEC Reliance 4U3RA Harrington “Cavalier” C45F
As it is Sunday I think we will go posh again and have another coach trip this time courtesy of “Yelloway Motor Services” of Rochdale Lancashire. Taken at the 1966 Blackpool Coach Rally this coach was entered number 18, unfortunately “Harrington” body builders ceased trading that very same year, shame really this was a very classic look for the mid sixties. The same was also to happen to “Yelloway” this a short extract from Peter Goulds excellent web site giving the history of Yelloway.
On the 5th July 1985, following the retirement of Managing Director Mr. Hubert Allen, who had been with the company for nearly 58 years, Yelloway was sold to Carlton PSV Sales Ltd, the UK agents for Neoplan.
Now it would appear that Carlton PSV couldn’t run a booze up in a brewery never mind a bus service, by 1988 what was once a great coach operator had gone. A bus company with a 73 year history wrecked in a little under three years, now that takes fantastic incompetence doesn’t it. So so sad! If you want to read Peter Goulds full history of “Yelloway Motor Services” and it is well worth doing so click here.
Sheffield United Tours/National Travel East were bought and ruined by Carlton PSV as well. The Yelloway Motor Services name lived on, however. If you Google Yelloway Motor Services you will find they live on – in a new incarnation – in Oldham. A modern version of the traditional livery now adorns new Neoplans, Scanias and Volvos.
David Oldfield
The man in the dark coat on the left of the photograph is Jack Wilson, the Yelloway Traffic Manager. He sported a large moustache and had a certain air about him. As office boys we revered him. When he was dressing down a driver he often included the word ‘boy’ when addressing the man which was never well received. (For example ‘You will boy!). The driver of the coach, to whom Mr Wilson seems to be talking, was the regular Yelloway rally driver, Bill Grundy. He subsequently became an inspector based at the Yelloway Manchester terminals.
David Slater
07/02/11 – 20:21
It made my day to hear someone mention ‘Yelloway Coaches’ at work recently. Memories started flooding back to me about going to stay with relatives in Gloucester in the late 50’s early 60’s. I remember being woken up at around 4am, getting ready and still half asleep catching the service bus from Sowerby Bridge over Saddleworth moor to Rochdale. That was an adventure in itself! Then we’d arrive in Rochdale and walk with our luggage to the Yelloway bus depot. I loved the sheer luxury of that ‘Yellow coach’ especially after a cold draughty service bus from home. I remember Rochdale to Gloucester being a very long journey – no motorways I don’t think? but I loved every minute of the experience! Now that I’ve found you I am going to relive the experience by booking an excursion with you this year – don’t know where yet? Congratulations for sticking around so long:-)
Helen Garthwaite
09/03/2011 17:48
I have many memories of Yelloway coaches. As a child I travelled between Grandma’s, one lived in Worcester the other in Oldham so I was put on the coach and travelled alone between the two. I recall arriving at Mumps Bridge Oldham to be met by one Grandma and being taken to Blackpool by her on the coach. I did spot some old coaches near Brixham Devon and wondered if it was a museum to them. Happy days!!
Yvonne Davies
09/03/11 – 18:38
The P reg Duple Dominant mobile museum lives somewhere in Devon. It is probably what you have seen.
David Oldfield
12/03/11 – 07:09
Yelloways hold a special place in my memories. As a child I regularly travelled with my mother from Waterfoot to Blackpool. I can still remember the thrill of anticipation to see what type of coach would turn up – usually a service coach and a duplicate together. The older Burlingham bodied AEC’s were my favourite – I also enjoyed the new Cavaliers, but they never seemed to have the same character as the Seagulls! The return journey from Bloomfield Road was also exciting, as you could see all the coaches parked up and tried to guess which one would pull on to your stand – occasionally it was a hired in vehicle which I thought was a treat! Happy days
Ian Hodgkinson
11/04/11 – 05:00
I have many fond memories of travelling with Yelloway from Leicester to Blackpool, From being a lad in the fifties until the services ended in the eighties, and it is wonderful to have these memories kept alive by the dedication of others, Thank you.
Martin Cooke
16/06/11 – 15:05
I was a driver at Yelloway for three summer seasons, (1972 /3/4) I have some brilliant memories of my time there, I made friends for life, and we still get together today from time to time, and we always reminisce, Yelloways had that effect on us,and for your information, the P reg coach that you see down in Devon belongs to my friend Dave Haddock, and it is a travelling Yelloway museum, my licence and PSV badge are amongst the artifax along with other friends and colleagues of mine, you can view Daves brilliant website here it’s stacked with great and accurate info. It’s great to see the Yelloway name living on, long may it continue.
Alex McNee
16/06/11 – 17:38
I looked at the Yelloway website; very good and thanks for the link, Alex. I did laugh at the photo, on the home page, of the steam charabanc. The body crudely bolted(?) onto the flatbed rear. At that height, you’d come a real cropper if you fell out! Just imagine, 20mph max, all that smoke steam and smuts, slightly offset by the luxury of pneumatic tyres. It’s so crude, but I’d love to have a ride in it today!!!
Chris Hebbron
29/08/11 – 08:18
In the 70’s when factory close down was coming up; Yelloways would borrow spare coaches from us, and run from Manchester to the South West swopping drivers at Cheltenham, over a weekend some coaches made 3 round trips,
Mike 9
Anyone want to guess who “us†is.
29/08/11 – 09:55
If it had been the 1950s or 1960s my guess would have been that “us” was either Hanson or Hebble. In the 70s I’m less certain – National Travel?? Mike 9 put us out of our misery!
Neville Mercer
30/08/11 – 08:16
Going by the comment under the posting for Daimler Roadliner CVC 124C, I would suggest ‘us’ could be Black and White Motorways, of Cheltenham.
Bob Gell
30/08/11 – 08:17
In another post Mike 9 tells us that “us” had Plaxton-bodied Daimler Roadliner coaches and then went back to Leopards. Black & White?
Peter Williamson
10/09/11 – 07:48
In my spotting days at Cheltenham the garage was always cleared on a Friday night for Yelloway to use as their hub. During the day you would probably on see 6 or 7 actual Yelloway vehicles, but the area around the garage would be rammed with coaches on hire to Yelloway mostly Bedford Val 6 wheelers. Those on layover would be ordered out of the garage and sent to Clarence Square and adjoining roads to park up until ready to return for the 16.30 departures oh happy days.
Trevor Walton
19/09/11 – 11:31
Does anyone know if the vehicle in the shot above was eventually bought by JayBee Coaches of Lees, Oldham ? (I used to drive one for him and this could be it).
Howard Jones
25/11/11 – 15:29
Who remembers the slogan ‘You are well away with Yelloway’ That was used on their TV advertising. There is an advert on YouTube it is only short but it is worth a look. There used to be another one on there but I can not find it.
Yelloway advert
Stephen Howarth
21/04/12 – 11:42
In the late 30s I was employed on building The Derbyshire Yeoman Pub at the junction of the A52 and the Derby ring road at Mackworth. Late morning I would try to position myself to watch a convoy of Yelloway coaches, all Burlingham AECs as they brake for the junction island. This lead me to book a trip to The commercial motor show and travelled over night to the Kings Cross bus station. after a happy tiring day I returned to Kings Cross bus station and boarded a brand new Duple bodied coach getting a front seat as a bonus. As we passed through Northampton we uncounted patches of fog. When we ran into one patch the driver braked hard as we came out of the gloom we were confronted with 2 men trying to bump start a Ford Zephyr. The look of horror on their faces is still clear in my memory.
Ron Stringer
21/04/12 – 14:25
I’ve no recollection at all of the Yelloway advertisement above, but it is superbly designed and presented – it would certainly have persuaded me to look further if I hadn’t been aware of the facility.
Chris Youhill
21/04/12 – 14:32
With regard to Howard’s question of some time ago, the Yelloway vehicle that worked for JayBee was 4640 DK. I’m doing some research on this operator for my Saddleworth Buses gallery and any additional information and any memories of driving for them would be very welcome indeed, as would photographs. Where were the vehicles garaged? JayBee had an interesting fleet as they had an ex-Bullock’s Seddon Mark 11, a Seddon Pennine 6, a Bedford VAL and a Plaxton-bodied AEC Reliance. Actually, I might as well complete the fleet history as apart from the Yelloway coach the only other vehicle I’m aware of a was a Ford Transit. If anybody has any photographs of Saddleworth coach operators I’d love to be able to use them in the gallery. The operators that qualify are: JayBee D. Illing (t/a Hillside Coaches) Dene Coaches Seville’s Coaches Ken Shaw Harold Hirst of Dobcross Trundley’s of Springhead Winterburn of Denshaw There are other even older ones but they’re so unlikely that it’s not worth listing. I’d be delighted if even one photograph came to light as a result of this appeal. These small coach operators were very poorly recorded and the photographs simply do not exist. I can’t criticise as I didn’t photograph them either!
David Beilby
01/06/12 – 15:52
I have good reason to be very grateful to Yelloway – in the 1930’s. I was born in Rochdale in January 1937. My Dad, John Bannon worked at Yelloway as a Clerk and I was told that he used to act as a Conductor. My Mother, Edith Bannon (formerly Brierley) worked at a Grocers and used to visit Yelloway office to obtain small change for the shop. One thing led to another and John and Edith married and I arrived eventually. I have been a lifelong bus enthusiast – unlike my Dad who didn’t know one end of a bus from the other. Hubert Allen was the boss in those far off days. Thank you Yelloway for my ticket to life.
Eric Bannon
24/08/12 – 15:49
It is a joy to read the Yelloway Memories here and on the www.yellowaymotorcoachmuseum web site which Dave Haddock is kindly keeping up to date since I acquired the Coach Museum from him and placed it in the Bury Transport Museum. Please keep them coming in if you have Yelloway memories and visit us at Bury if you can, checking the web site first as it still travels to events. eg Rochdale Town Centre on the 6th and 8th of September.
Paul Blackburn
06/05/13 – 08:11
I seem to recall that these Yelloway machines had the 590 engine and ZF 6 speed gearbox – a superb combination. Prior to the ZF being offered, the choice for a 36 footer appeared to be either the 470 engine & 5 speed gearbox (a bit underpowered) or the 590 engine & 4 speed box (a lot under geared). There must have been some technical reason why the 5 speed could not be matched with the 590 engine but does anyone know w hat this reason was?
Bob Hunter
07/05/13 – 07:29
Could the reason the five speed gearbox couldn’t be used with the 590 engine be that the MU series Reliances originally had an affinity with the Mercury range of goods vehicles in respect of engines and gearboxes and this may have carried over to the later variants of the MU Reliance.
Michael Elliott
07/05/13 – 14:02
The MU Reliances were developed as parallel models with the Mercury lorries. I agree with every word of your post, Bob – but the 6U3ZR was better with the AH691 or AH760. [The AH590 shared with the AH470 the weakness of gasket failure and overheating.]
David Oldfield
28/01/14 – 06:46
I have fond memories of travelling to Torquay from Newcastle under Lyme for holidays with my parents and brother in the late fifties. One of the drivers I remember was named Eddie. I did see one of the recent coaches in the Yelloway fleet at Lytham in September 2013. It brought back fond memories.
Terry Henshall
30/10/15 – 16:45
I was a driver for Shearings in the late 70s and early 80s. We had Ford R1114s at that time, nothing older than 5 years old, and I will never forget struggling up the M5 bank towards Frankley Services in our new but grossly underpowered coaches while streams and streams of ancient Yelloway AECs roared past us in the third lane as if we were standing still. But how things changed when Shearings went out and bought a few Leylands with Duple 320 bodies. They would “rev out” on the speed limiter in 5th gear, never mind 6th, and then Yelloways couldn’t catch us.
Eric Hall
17/04/16 – 06:50
My father was Herbert Holt, brother to Robert Holt the Founders of Yelloway, I remember fondly those days of Yelloway and garage at Drake street Rochdale, where I played and watched the goings on of Yelloway!
George Holt
11/07/16 – 07:33
Those wonderful coaches brought my grandparents for their summer holidays staying with us for a whole fortnight! I thought those buses beautiful as they pulled into Cheltenham having brought them from Oldham. In the early sixties ours would be the only car in the street when we made infrequent trips to Chadderton so Yelloways seemed so important. How we kept looking for them to arrive and seemed so sad at the 1pm departure. Happy days.
Alan Heaven
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
05/08/17 – 11:16
I don’t know if records would pinpoint the date but there was one famous occasion when the overnight service from Rochdale to Paignton came through Cheltenham with no fewer than 90 coaches on it. Needless to say they were spread over some time but the scheduled time was 01:30. Truly a giant operator of the time.
