Photo by unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Hebble Motor Services 1956 AEC Reliance MU3RV Willowbrook B44F
I can recognize that this photo was taken outside the Hebble depot at Walnut Street in the depths of the terrace streets of north Halifax. They also had a depot in Bradford at Park Lane, the garage was big enough for 50 vehicles and Yorkshire Woollen District buses were stationed in the same depot when working the Bradford area. Hebble was one of if not the smallest B.E.T. operator and by the reading of Peter Gould’s history of Hebble Motors they did have a tendency to flaunt the rules a bit. To read Peter Gould’s history of Hebble Motor Services and it is well worth doing so click here.
Chesterfield bought this bus from London Transport it was RW1 in their fleet. Roof windows were more likely to be found on dual purpose or coaches rather than on a bus but this bus had them. It also had a dual entrance with, as usual at London Transport a front entrance and centre exit, I am not sure if Chesterfield changed it to front only doors. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.
Nice photo of the RW, Chesterfield had just gone one man and from then until the mid 70s bought a lot of 2 door buses (about 75) double and single deck. The RWs (Reliance/Willowbrook) was the standard bus for several years in Grimsby-Cleethorpes, London tried 3 but then went for Swifts and Merlins.
David Harrison
Chesterfield obviously liked the RW Reliances as they were followed by a fair number of Neepsend/East Lancs Reliances. All of them had centre exits, which the RWs also retained. They were then followed by Daimler Roadliners – total disaster – and Leyland Panthers. All of these were also dual door.
David Oldfield
As an aside, what is the part-view single-decker with the stepped side windows on the right of the RW?
Chris Hebbron
I think the bus behind the Reliance is ERA 95. A pre-war gearless Leyland Tiger that had been given a manual gearbox and converted into a mobile canteen. If not it could be one of the single deck Crossleys, but they were all withdrawn when the Reliances arrived as they were their replacements.
Ian Couzens
BBF5 (1965 edition) shows 12 Crossley single-deckers on the fleet strength as well as the RWs, which arrived in 1963. The part of the body visible looks identical to the Crossley body on the preserved Chesterfield Leyland PS1. I should be very surprised if anything prewar had a stepped waistrail like that, since it appears to be derived from the post-war Manchester double deck design.
Peter Williamson
Glimpsing that Crossley-bodied single-decker I assumed the chassis was also Crossley, but the rear hub (had to look hard!) identifies as a postwar Leyland, two of which I understand are preserved. I 1966 I arranged for a college nr Reading to buy NRA 717 and later became a part-owner. We passed it on to Alan Smallie of Worksop as a source of spares for his sister ships. Is either of them on the rally circuit?
Ian Thompson
One or two of the Crossleys survived quite late, although I think in some instances at least not in passenger service. Chesterfield had Crossley single-deck bodies on PS1s, SD42s and, uniquely, on AEC Regals but I have never seen a picture of the AECs
David Beilby
Leeds also used roof line windows on single deckers in the nineteen fifties. Their small fleet of saloons were all centre entrance with vertiginous steps and carried 34 seated and 20 standees. The windows were so standing passengers could see the outside world! Leeds first dual door saloons Roe bodied AEC Reliances did not have the feature but it reappeared on the Roe bodied AEC Swifts in the late sixties. These were eventually painted over in PTE days
Chris Hough
In answer to David Beilby, there was a booklet; Tramlines to Fleetlines, a history of Chesterfield Transport, published by the Council and Transpire, the Chesterfield bus society which contained a picture of one of the Regals, JRA 653 (credited to R Marshall) It was one of four, I too thought they must have been unique! Not sure if the book is still around today, perhaps Transpire could help.
Chris Barker
Nice pics of Chesterfield Crossley-bodied Leyland PS1 JRA 635 on YouTube: Novawheels.
Ian Thompson
I’ve just noticed that the Reliance is described as MU3RA. Bus Lists On The Web has it as 2MU3RA. However, I once met one of these buses later in life with Brutonian, and it was semi-automatic, which would make it 2MU2RA. Does anyone have a definitive answer to this? I’ve made an enquiry about the Transpire book. Meanwhile those interested in Alan Smalley’s Crossleys may like to take a look at this slideshow. (No, neither of them is on the rally circuit.)
Peter Williamson
I’m told that the best place to enquire about the booklet “Tramlines to Fleetlines” would be Terminus Publications. Contact details at here.
Peter Williamson
Tramlines to Fleetlines refers to the early post war single deck vehicles all having Crossley bodies:- 2 x Leylands 4 x AEC Regal 20 x Crossleys There were also 30 all Crossley d/deckers The two Leylands were converted on withdrawal as PSV’s to a mobile canteen and a driver trainer – I suspect that it may be one of these two that feature in the photograph
Andrew Charles
09/02/11 – 06:33
I drove this bus for Chesterfield Corporation the lights were terrible not fit for rural work and it mainly worked the colliery routes around Chesterfield
Colin Ellis
24/03/11 – 06:31
These buses would regularly pick us up from school for our weekly visit to Central Baths on Ashgate Road in about 1971/2. They were often used on the more rural routes to places like Calow Green and Barlow etc. As a kid, I wondered why the upholstery of these buses was finished in red where other Corporation buses had the usual green upholstery.
Michael Ashley
24/07/12 – 18:19
When I was a small boy in Sheffield in the 1950s, my mum worked for Stephenson Blake, typefounders in Sheffield. For many years, the Stephensons took the staff and family members for a summer Saturday afternoon out to Hassop Hall in Derbyshire where they lived. On the occasions that I was taken we always travelled from Sheffield to the hall in Chesterfield Corporation single deck buses. It sticks in my mind that they were Crossleys and that they struggled a bit on some of the Derbyshire hills with their full load! We had a bit of a tour round before arriving at the Hall for the afternoon. Sorry this isn’t very technical but I hope someone finds it of interest. Presumably the buses were hired from Chesterfield because they were cheaper than Sheffield?
Stan Zapiec
25/07/12 – 07:01
The three RW class Reliances entered service with London Transport (Country Buses and Coaches) in August 1960, about the same time as I did – I started work from school at Reigate South Divisional Office on 29th August. Having standardised from 1952 on the dependable RF Regal IV for full sized single deck requirements, LTE started to make a cautionary appraisal of the Reliance, first with the RW, and then, in 1965, with the 36ft RC class (a fiasco that deserves a posting of its own on the site). The three RW buses had Monocontrol gearboxes and were thus of the 2MU2RA type, as Peter Williamson has correctly pointed out. The Willowbrook bodywork was added on to a production order for Grimsby Cleethorpes, and was of B42D configuration in line with LTE’s increasing interest in dual doorway buses. Inevitably, the serious shortcomings of the AH470 engine soon became evident, and the inflexibility of the LT maintenance system built entirely round the removal of defective parts and replacement by Chiswick reconditioned units exacerbated the difficulty. LT garages did not have the expertise at local level for analysing and fixing engineering problems, a feature that was to emerge even more seriously later with the DM/DMS Fleetlines. The RWs were tried out on rural routes round the Country Bus system – I rode on them on the hilly 440 service between Woldingham and Salfords (near Redhill) – where the dual doorway concept proved to be something of a liability in constricted stopping places. After a mere three years in service, the entire class was withdrawn in October 1963, and then sold to Chesterfield in December of that year. Astonishingly, two of these buses still survive. Only RW1 featured in the picture above ended up in the scrapyard. The restoration of RW2 and 3, though entirely creditable, does illustrate yet again the distorted bias of the preservation movement towards LT vehicle types.
Roger Cox
26/07/12 – 14:15
RW3 (497 ALH) has been much in the news this year, having made its preservation debut at Cobham and subsequently taken part in the Brighton run. Its owners have undoubtedly done a first-class restoration. But this is how I remember it: as number 15 in the fleet of the Brutonian Bus Company of Bruton, Somerset, with whom it ran from 1978 to 1987. Seen here in the yard in 1983.
Michael Wadman
27/07/12 – 08:29
…..but I remember it as a Chesterfield bus.
David Oldfield
21/01/13 – 17:27
As a youngster I can well recall our journeys on the Owler Bar to Fox House part of the Summer Saturday and Sunday only Chesterfield – Fox House route 7. In those days, the route was via Cordell Valley, with a stiff climb up to Owler Bar. The Leylands (PS1’s) would growl and snarl their way to the top. the Crossleys (SD42’s) would struggle and my dad would often ask the conductor in jest if we could mash a pot of tea. The drivers had a struggle in getting away from the Owler Bar stop – no auto boxes then. I recall a visit to Derbyshire in the early 70′. The route was renumbered No. 4 and re routed via Holmesfield, an extension of the existing run from Chesterfield. Perhaps the buses of the 70’s were not man enough for the climb from Cordwell Valley To Owler Bar. I don’t think the route exists any more
Jerry Wilkes
22/01/13 – 06:42
Had a meal with my brother and sister in law at the Peacock, Owler Bar, just after Christmas. I well remember the Chesterfield buses on the Fox House runs – and Cordwell Valley was a favourite childhood haunt. The Panthers and Roadliners might not have been man enough for the job but the Neepsend Reliances were regular performers.
David Oldfield
14/09/14 – 07:13
I used to be a bus driver for Chesterfield Corporation Transport from 1966 to 1884. I drove all these buses on Homes Field Barlow the reason they used these buses was because the other buses was 36 feet long these was a lot smaller they had small buses on No9. Spiral run as well. I really enjoyed working as a bus driver with the Chesterfield transport until they brought in one Manning it took all the thrill out of working on the buses.
Brian Nicholls
11/09/16 – 07:28
Remember, the Crossley bus was on route to Fox House on Whit Monday 1965 1967.
Geoff
13/10/17 – 06:24
Please can anyone remember the mystery tours I believe on Sunday afternoons from Chesterfield East Midlands bus station!!…They went around the Peak District!! In mid 1960s….
Lyn Davey
18/01/18 – 09:09
I have only just found this site and find it very interesting as i worked for Chesterfield Transport for 39 years.I drove the 2 old ex-London buses and as i recall they spent a lot of time on Chesterfield to Spital route via Eyre Street, and had to do a reverse at the far end of Spital Lane. I can also remember the old Leyland that was converted to the Mobile Canteen. I worked on this old bus for 3 years.When it was converted it was driven as H.G.V.instead of P.S.V.
A. Ward
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
04/05/19 – 06:38
I went to school on ex-Chesterfield Weymann bodied PD2 (221 GRA and 229 LRB) both owned by Mulleys Motorways, of Ixworth, Suffolk. Both registrations were transferred onto newer coaches.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1954 AEC Reliance MU3RV Park Royal C41C
As it is Sunday again it is another coach, this time an Halifax Corporation AEC Reliance, this coach was bought from Holloway Coaches of Scunthorpe in 1965. But it was delivered new to Bourne & Balmer of Croydon in 1954 I presume they were the only two owners before Halifax. When this coach entered service it was numbered 260 but at the time of this photo it was fleet number 200 so the date of this shot is late 1966 or early 1967 as it was renumbered 256 and rebodied by Plaxton to a C41F in 1967. The double decker next to this coach by the way is a 1948 Leyland Titan PD2/1 with a Leyland H30/26R body.
The PD2 alongside became Oldham 467 in 1965.
Keith Jackson
The following is from the August 1965 edition of “Buses Illustrated”.
AEC Reliance MBY 347 was originally owned by Bourne & Balmer Croydon later used by Timpsons the owners of Bourne & Balmer and latterly owned by Holloway Coaches of Scunthorpe.
Trevor
It was actually bought to provide seats for a duel purpose conversion project, I think it cost £300. Having been in an accident on Standedge or somewhere equally difficult it returned to the body shop at Halifax and was evaluated and they decided it could be reinstated. Surely one of the best bargains EVER, it ran years on contracts, tours, private hires and was rebodied later, good bus, I travelled many miles on it.
Another shot of the very popular AEC Reliance this one has a rather nice C. H. Roe of Leeds body. During researching this bus I found it to be listed as a 2MU2RA and a 2MU3RA but as Huddersfield only had two post war buses with manual gearboxes and they were both Leyland Leopards I went for 2MU2RA. The reason being that 2RA had a epicyclic gearbox and 3RA had a synchromesh gearbox. This bus was taken over by W.Y.P.T.E. in 1974 and became fleet number 4024 in there fleet. I’m not sure just how many AEC Reliance vehicles were actually built but from my research the last chassis number in 1972 was 8118. If you know a more exact number, let me know, please leave a comment.
10/06/14 – 07:52
1972 was when AEC adopted a single numbering system for all its chassis (including lorries), starting at around 21000 and reaching over 38000 by the time the factory was closed in 1979. Reliance production continued throughout that period, with at least 1,175 built – taking the total number to at least 9,293.
Des Elmes
11/06/14 – 07:52
Also, the registration of this particular Reliance is of note – Huddersfield was, I believe, the first county borough to adopt the year suffix system, issuing ACX 1A in August 1963 after completing the YCX and YVH series. And according to Bus Lists on the Web, the number of new buses and coaches in 1963 registered with “A” suffixes was barely a hundred – the vast majority of these being registered in Middlesex, which of course was the very first authority to adopt the system.
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Chiltern Queens of Woodcote” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
07/03/13 – 17:33
This photo brings back many memories of school trips between Didcot Station and Wallingford Grammar School 1959 – 61 after which I moved to Wimbledon. From memory LMO 743 ran the best out of the 3 and was often driven by a young driver known as Nelson who had a novel way of changing gear particularly from 1st to 2nd without the customary pause – how he did it I know not but it made for a lively ride. NBW 407 was also used (quite new at the time) and was treated more gently. If we went the Whittenham way, the old Maudslay & Tilling Stevens half cabs were used such as DBW 66 & DUD 401 & NPA 461.
Richard Anscombe
09/10/13 – 08:20
My father drove one of these for Chiltern Queens between 1957-1961, three buses of this model; LMO 743, LMO744 and LMO745 were driven by Nelson Prior, Des Spokes and my father Bill Pearson. I have a photo of my father stood by one on lay over at the old Polish camp at Ipsden heath, Checkendon. The route was polish camp to Checkendon, to Exslade street to Kidmore end (The Fox) to Reforation pub turn to Whitehouse green to Chalkhouse green to Emmergreen to Caversham to Reading station. On his return journey as a kid I would wait at the bus stop at Parkside in Checkendon my father would pick me up and take me to his terminus; Polish camp where he would eat is lunch of which my mother would send with me for him, just think this was approx 54 years ago? seems like y/day.
Here is another photo taken with parents 127 Kodak at Scarborough coach station in the summer of 1965 I am afraid it is a little out of focus. Each of this pair of AEC Reliances according to what I can find out were owned by separate companies but garaged under the same roof I strongly suspect. KBV 251 was purchased new by Batty Holt, Blackburn Lancashire whilst KBV 252 was purchased by Ribblesdale, Blackburn Lancashire and apparently had a fleet number of 41 in their fleet. The company name of Batty Holt seems to have disappeared but Ribblesdale Coachways Ltd is still registered as a non trading company in Halifax Yorkshire. These Yeates bodied coaches were probable top of the line in luxury coaches when new in 1958 and the amount of flashing if that is the correct word for it certainly makes them stand out in a coach park. The running gear on these two was either the AEC 6.75 or 7.7 litre diesel engine I would of thought the later with a coach body, through a five speed synchromesh gearbox and vacuum assisted braking.
One of the best journeys of my life was an overnight on the Ribble Glasgow to Manchester service, as a student, in 1974. There was a duplicate on the 22:30 August departure – a Ribblesdale 4MU3RA Plaxton Panorama. I’m known for my preference for heavyweight, long Reliances but this was a beautiful, smooth and sprightly ride. Two other things stick in the memory. As a driver for an independent, he seemed friendlier than the regular service drivers but he didn’t know where he was going and hadn’t been briefed properly. We initially got lost in a large housing estate in the suburbs of Glasgow. A superb coach, well driven, made up for it.
David Oldfield
04/02/11 – 06:57
Ribblesdale Batty Holt were indeed one and the same. The company was actually owned by O & C Holdsworth of Halifax, being part of their transport empire. One of the items common to all O & C companies was the use of Gothic script initials in stainless steel on the side of the coach, in this case BRH with a large R flanked by a small B and small H. The same applied to OCH, W & H (Walton and Hellewell) and WRS, (W Robinson and Sons, who are still owned by O & C). I would be pleased to hear from anyone with photos from any of these operators, particularly form the pre underfloor era.
David Hudson
05/02/11 – 05:44
I was never the greatest fan of Yeates bodies, but this model, which I’ve never seen before, is very attractive. despite the amount of what we could nowadays call ‘bling’!
Chris Hebbron
28/02/21 – 06:24
Batty Holt held the extended tours licences. It was sold to Shearings in 1971. The remaining business was operated by Ribblesdale until 1983 when the owners retired and sold to Robinsons. I don’t know where the idea that Ribblesdale belonged to Holdsworths came from. It was a family business owned by the Boltons until they retired – that’s when it became part of the Holdsworth empire. Robinsons was itself sold to Daish’s in 2020. Ribblesdale remains as a dormant company with Holdsworths.
The above AEC Reliance chassis No 1598 fitted with a Plaxton Consort C41C body No 2355 was supplied new to Batty Holt Ribblesdale of Blackburn Lancashire in 1958. I bought the coach off a preservationist in Farnham Surrey in 1982 who had acquired it from Chiltern Queens of Woodcote, Oxfordshire where it had operated for a number of years in their fleet. Still in that livery I rallied it for almost 3 years before selling it to Whittaker Tours of Walsall who began to use it on vintage tours, weddings etc. It then went to some travellers where it has remained for a number of years gradually becoming more dilapidated. It certainly was a nice coach to drive and travel in 1950s opulence when I had it.
Several photographs of this vehicle appear on the website //www.travellerhomes.co.uk under the ‘AEC’ heading. Be warned that the sections of this site are not in alphabetical order (it is, after all, run by hippies!) so you will have to scroll downwards to find the AEC bit. According to this site the vehicle was advertised for sale on eBay (or as they prefer “greedbay”) in 2009. Has somebody bought it for re-preservation? I hope so.
Neville Mercer
What a beautiful looking vehicle indeed. I have driven many a thousand very happy miles in virtually identical coaches with Wallace Arnold Tours of Leeds, who had a large number of them. They were extremely nice to drive, had an excellent performance, their reliability was legendary (no pun intended on the model name) and the passengers found them comfortable and pleasant.
Chris Youhill
You lucky person, Chris. Reliances had left front line service by the time I gained my licence. I trained on an ex Chiltern Queen ZF 691 Reliance and ZF Reliances are my favourite vehicles. I was brought up in Sheffield on SUT Reliances of all descriptions. Anyone need help to drive their preserved Reliance?
David Oldfield
The magnificent ZF/690 Reliances caught us all napping at Wallace Arnold David. Until you got the hang of the unfamiliar gearbox the way that third and fourth gears seemed to be “anywhere” between first and second on the left and fifth and sixth on the right could be most embarrassing – we desperately “stirred the tub of treacle” hoping to find third and fourth until it eventually dawned on us that there was a gentle spring preventing unintentional selection of fifth and sixth – and then these lovely smooth powerful vehicles showed their true gentle and civilised nature.
Chris Youhill
Sounds as if you’re as big a fan Chris as I am! I was trained how to use the ZF. Good case for type training!!!
David Oldfield
Indeed David – and on reflection I’m just wondering if my memory is playing tricks ?? WAS the gentle protecting spring on the right, or was it it on the left of the gate to prevent unintentional engagement of first and second gears ??
Chris Youhill
I did my training on said vehicle when it was about 26 years old. I don’t know, or remember, how the springing was set up but it was supposed to centre the lever on the 3/4 axis. This it tended to do quite well, as I remember, although age wore the linkages – and with misuse (normally due to ignorance of how to use it) could make accurate selection of gears a bit haphazard. I remember a Western National driver, shortly after they had taken over Devon General, making a total hash of driving a DG 6U3ZR from Plymouth to Exeter. My problem, as a rookie, was selecting reverse rather than second – when setting off – due to being too brutal with the gear lever. My instructor reckoned I was responsible for many a case of “brown trousers” when I set off in reverse from traffic lights in Reading! As you said (Chris) once you had learned to tame the beast it was a real pussy cat. [The same was also true of the ZF Tiger – especially a 260/Van Hool (ex Armchair) that became a favourite of mine!]
David Oldfield
Thanks for those experiences David. I seem to remember now that 1/2/3/4th were normal and you had to overcome the spring to find 5th and 6th, and when changing down let the lever come out of the spring and locate and “settle” itself ready for 3rd and 4th. This would explain the possible pitfall, which I also remember, of engaging second instead of reverse or reverse instead of second when moving off in one direction or the other.
Chris Youhill
As a former Chiltern Queens driver I have happy memories of this vehicle as it was always a favourite with drivers, went well, and no body noise at all, the only problem was watching your speed as it went so well and ran quietly. Thanks for the memory.
Philip Smith
Yes super vehicles, PMT had about 6 Duple Commander bodied coaches and if drivers tried to pull away in second gear they would tend to go over the second spring in the gearbox and select reverse gear whoops!! The secret with this gear box was to treat it like a woman, nice and gentle. Good fast buses. PMT coach number C989 reg 4989 VT was an AEC Reliance 2U3RA ZF 6 speed gearbox won the Brighton Coach Rally in 1964.
Michael Crofts
I was highly amused Michael to read of your most gallant method of remaining in favour with the ZF gearbox, and I would totally agree that it is the best course of action. It has to be said though that the theory can by no means be applied universally to other gearboxes, and I can think of a few models which would treat such gentlemanly conduct with noisy and stubborn contempt – I’m sure other people have had similar “confrontations” with challenging but nevertheless noble vehicles – the Foden PVSC6/Gardner 6LW remains etched in the distant memory, and must take credit for ensuring that I still have a seemingly healthy ruddy complexion half a century after my last battle with the type !!
Chris Youhill
Interesting comments about Reliances and ZF gearboxes. Maidstone & District used this combination in their express coaches, (‘SC’ in M&D terminology), and they were an absolute delight to drive. Based at M&D’s head office in Maidstone in 1966/7, I had the rare privilege, whenever I went up to London, of being able to suggest to the driver that he might care to take a rest, and drive the coach myself instead. They were just exhilarating: very fast, comfortable and extremely well-mannered in every respect. However, I was mildly surprised to read about people making mistakes when operating the lovely 6-speed ZF gearbox, and Chris’s and David’s comments on accidental selection of the wrong gear rang no bells at all. (You’re right, Chris, the spring was between the 3rd/4th gate and the 5th/6th gate, so when changing from 5th to 4th, say, the technique was to drop into neutral, then hold the lever gently against the spring. Maybe my ignorance of any difficulty with using the ZF box was because the vehicles were then brand new and had suffered no wear in the linkages, but as Michael Crofts points out, they responded best to gentle treatment, and the lovely M&D was a very gentle company!
Roy Burke
Roy. Chris and my post are almost a year old. My problems were when I was learning (before I passed my test) and, to be fair, Chris probably meant on first encountering the beast. Subsequently, I have driven thousands of miles with no problems with AEC, Leyland, Volvo, DAF and Dennis applications of the 6 speed ZF.
David Oldfield
Roy and David, yes, just to confirm my comments on WA drivers being “caught napping” with the new AEC Reliances and the freshly introduced ZF six speed gearbox – a gearbox so totally different from the previous very familiar positive and easy five speed one with which we were all so familiar daily. Of course, as with the norm, there was no mention by the Company of the development and no familiarity training of any kind, and so a little “puzzlement” was to be expected – but we soon came to grips with it and, as everyone above has agreed, the gearbox and the chassis in general were superb – smooth, quiet and fast but totally civilised. I don’t think I dare put in print the top speed that the Reliances could achieve, but they improved the Leeds – Southend Airport feeder running times to come a close second to the aged aeroplanes in which our passengers were to cross the Channel !!
Chris Youhill
Pre-tacho and motorway speed limits, I was a passenger on a 760 which did over the ton – EASILY, and with no effort – on the A1, south of Scotch Corner!
David Oldfield
I have no further questions Mi’ Lud !!
Chris Youhill
All this talk of speed awakens more memories: when driven in a way of which Chris would disapprove, some buses (not coaches)- possibly CVD6’s- or aged Barton PD’s ?- used to “chuff” when “given their head” on the open road: they were probably doing all of 50…? Could we have an expert interpretation?
Joe
Well, David, I just can’t compete with your experience of going at over a ton on the A1; 70mph on the Swanley by-pass was the best I ever managed, but weren’t the Reliances lovely when they were moving at speed? As for Joe’s query, could the ‘chuffing’ be the effect of the governors?
Roy Burke
Reliances were lovely at any speed but not for nothing do I dub them them RR of coaches!
David Oldfield
We had two batches of AEC Reliance 590 with ZF gearboxes at PMT. The six Duple Commander bodied coaches were prone to overheating when driven for long periods in 6th gear. We blanked off 6th gear on all of them for a time and fitted C991 with two radiators in tandem in an attempt to cure the problem. Time dulls the memory, I can’t remember the conclusion to either experiment. The other five had Weymann DP bodies and spent most of their time on stage carriage work, latterly as OMO vehicles. To say they were unsuitable for this work is an understatement!! Most drivers managed to find 2nd and then the next gear was 5th!! I have to confess that I never mastered the 6 speed ZF – nor for that matter the AEC 6 speed constant mesh fitted to the short Reliance coaches. The ex Stratford Blue Tiger Cubs were easy (to me) by comparison.
Ian Wild
As I have said elsewhere, Ian, the 590 was AEC’s Achilles heel which gave them an undeserved reputation through its propensity to boil. It was a wet liner. Its predecessor and successors were dry liners – and didn’t have this problem. Unfortunately the damage was done and many, including Wally Arnold forsook AEC for Leyland.
David Oldfield
In 1981 during a get-together in Leeds we were taking on an excursion to York in a 6-speed Leyland Leopard that sounded different from the near-silent ZF unit. I asked the driver, who told me it was an AEC six-speed box. Back at Leeds he kindly offered me a go round the block. The change was beautifully positive and you could hear the engine just well enough to get clean changes. It struck me that this was an ideal chassis-gearbox combination. I can’t remember the name of the coach company or the registration of the Leopard or why it had been so fitted. Triple amnesia!
Ian Thompson
The ZF Leopard was offered as a sop to disgruntled AEC operators when AEC was closed down in 1979. Famously, both Yelloway and Premier of Cambridge has ZF Leopards after they could no longer get 760 ZF Reliances. Many went straight to Volvo (B58 or B10M) and missed out Leyland. I know a number of southern independents bought ZF Leopards in single numbers but I’m not au fait with Leeds area to know who might have had your ZF Leopard. It would never have replaced – or bettered – the 691/760 Reliance, but just think how much better the Leopard would have been had they offered the ZF earlier.
David Oldfield
01/11/11 – 06:46
Going right back to Neville’s very first posting regarding this fine vehicle, I have many times looked sadly at the pictures found on the Travellers Homes website and at the dreadful state that this poor coach had been allowed to get into..see here //www.travellerhomes.co.uk/?p=6445 Then tonight, by chance I came upon this Flickr website and found that thankfully, a major restoration has been undertaken and it is now once more gleaming! See here //www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/6121759708/in/photostream/ There is a conflict of dates as the “hippy” website claims it was awaiting sale in 2009 but the post restoration picture appears to be January 2008…maybe the camera date coding is wrong but whatever the reason..KBV 778 lives!
Richard Leaman
01/11/11 – 16:15
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the photo on Flickr was taken in 1986 – see the original text under the photo on this website for the reference to it being preserved in “Whittaker” livery. The date of 2008 on Flickr refers to the time when the photo was scanned and uploaded. If only you were right!
Neville Mercer
02/11/11 – 07:08
Neville… I’m sorry. I just did not realise what “86 JL” meant and was pleased to see the coach apparently restored.
I’ve gone back through the travellers website to check on how my confusion was fostered seeing the coach in a new livery.
1. In Geralds original picture it is in Chiltern Queen’s dark/light green scheme.
It’s such a shame and I guess may by now have been broken up or at best deteriorated even further.
Again, my apologies to everyone for the confusion and hoped for “restoration”.
Richard Leaman
02/11/11 – 09:29
We can live in hope, Richard – but more to the point – we can help and support those wonderful people who are able to restore and preserve these classic vehicles – and even better – run them at special gatherings throughout the year.
David Oldfield
03/11/11 – 06:32
David.. indeed you are right about appreciating the work and skills of the restorers. After my last posting above, I noticed that on one of the earlier pictures it now says “Sold in 2010 to..?” so it appears to have moved on but to what fate?
Richard Leaman
03/11/11 – 08:45
………and we should mourn the breakup of classic bus collections, like CPPTD in Broad Street, Old Portsmouth, forced on them by re-development and an unhelpful local council. Also, the likely demise of Aston Manor Road Transport Museum, under threat of closure. With additional council rent, they would have to charge £8pp for ALL visitors. And the purchase, the price was exorbitant.
Chris Hebbron
05/01/12 – 17:00
Ah what happy memories, the Reliance with ZF 6 speed gearbox, although I worked for Southdown at Eastbourne depot I got to drive East Kent’s 590 engined models on the old South Coast Express service to Bournemouth etc as changeovers with drivers, usually from Thanet depot, was a regular occurrence especially in summer, after our usual fare of manual gearbox Leopard’s this was pure Heaven. Other of your correspondents have commented on selecting 3/4 gears I always found that when coming out of 2 or 5/6 that taking all pressure off of the lever using only the palm of your hand would let it stand in the centre of the gate just right to gently slide into 3rd or 4th gear, a gentle touch was all that was needed. Any attempt at heavy handedness almost always ended in failure and confusion all round used properly along with the performance available they were a total pleasure to drive the powerful brakes and light clutch only improved the experience.
Diesel Dave
06/01/12 – 07:02
When I moved from Tynemouth and Wakefields ‘Northern General’ to Armstrong Galley the coaching division of Tyne and Wear PTE, most of the coach fleet was made up of Leyland Leopards with semi auto air change boxes, but we had two older Duple bodied AEC’s with six speed ZF’s, as a result all our drivers had to have any type licence. I don’t know if they had a 590 or a 760, but if they could get a grip I’m sure they could have scaled the North Wall of the Eiger. I would say they were a better vehicle than the Leopard, although the steering on the Leyland was more positive and the AEC’s had a tendency to wander slightly in comparison to the Leyland, but overall they were a nice vehicle to drive.
Ronnie Hoye
06/01/12 – 07:02
My first experience of the ZF gearbox was in the Aldershot and District Park Royal bodied 4MU4RA Reliances, which had the AH 470 engine. I did much of my PSV training and a great deal of subsequent driving on the Halifax Nimbuses, which had a six speed constant mesh gearbox that responded to light, sensitive handling. As I recall, the ZF boxes had a similar gate layout to the Albion, and light detente springs centralised the stick in the 3rd/4th plane. The subtlety of this arrangement was entirely lost on those of the ham fisted fraternity who would berate the gearbox on account of their own incompetence. Properly used, the ZF box was very satisfying and gave even the modestly powered Aldershot examples a fine turn of speed. Later, I drove several of the more powerful 590 engined/ZF model, which confirmed my earlier impressions.
Roger Cox
07/01/12 – 08:49
The 6-speed gearbox of the 4MU4RA was quite different from the one on the the 590s, and I always understood it was an AEC unit, not ZF. The code after the U is 2 for Monocontrol, 3 for synchromesh, 3Z for ZF synchromesh (although I’m not sure that the Z was added on the earliest ones) and 4 for constant mesh.
Peter Williamson
07/01/12 – 10:16
Peter. The 590 ZFs were 2U3RA (or 4U3RA air suspension variant). The Z was only added when the 6 variant (691 and then 760) was introduced [6U3ZR]. The A was dropped from the end because, by that time, there were ONLY air brakes offered. The 6 speed constant mesh (as in 6MU4R) WAS an AEC unit, only available on the medium weights.
David Oldfield
08/01/12 – 08:03
I have read somewhere that the AEC six speed constant mesh gearbox was originally a Thornycroft design. Until the death knell of the Leyland coup de grace, Basingstoke works became the main AEC gearbox factory after the Southall takeover. Alan Townsin’s book, Blue Triangle, seems to make no mention of the AEC 6 speed constant mesh unit being fitted to the Reliance, though this is not absolute evidence. The fifteen 1963/4 Park Royal bodied Reliances numbered 466 to 480 of Aldershot and District were early examples of the 36ft long variant, and I am sure that the gearboxes were of ZF manufacture. Chassis of the same specification were supplied to City of Oxford. A later Aldershot and District batch of five Park Royal bodied 36 footers had the standard 5 speed synchromesh gearbox.
Just in case anyone notices that Bus Lists On The Web has A&D 466-480 as 4MU3RA, this is probably a red herring, as Peter Gould’s site agrees with Roger that they were 4MU4RA. As I said above, the 4 means constant mesh (well strictly speaking it means non-synchromesh, since synchromesh gearboxes are constant mesh as well!). We know that the 3 could refer to one of several synchromesh gearboxes, so it is theoretically possible that the 4 could refer to more than one gearbox as well. But the crucial thing is no synchromesh. Personally I have never heard of a ZF box without synchromesh.
Peter Williamson
09/01/12 – 07:15
North Western’s last batch of Reliances were 36 foot long machines, fifteen being buses and twenty dual-purpose, all on 2U3RA chassis. The last ten (941-952) were fitted with the ZF six-speed gearbox which I believe is what is being referred to here. Peter Caunt, in his book on driving reminiscences with North Western, recalls these as having a close gate, as described, which took some getting used to. He had little chance to wind them up but says then when you changed up from fifth (at about 55 mile/h) to sixth what usually happened is that speed dropped by about 10 mile/h! I suspect there was quite a ratio gap and the engine was delivering sufficient power at the low revs.
David Beilby
09/01/12 – 13:44
As ever, 6 speed ZF covers a multitude of sins – many different versions with differing ratios. The AEC application – only on heavyweights – had an overdrive sixth gear. [That would explain the speed drop – although it did not necessarily happen if driven “properly”]. When Leyland withdrew the Reliance from the market and offered a 6 speed ZF on the Leopard, in 1979, the Leyland application had a direct sixth gear (1:1). The Dennis Dorchester and Seddon Pennine VII had there own versions (Eastern Scottish even having a 4 speed ZF variant). The early 36 footers for North Western and the batch including No.9 for Devon General shared the same 4 speed synchromesh AEC gearbox as the SUT BWB registered Plaxton coaches of 1962. As such, they sounded totally different – more like a Regent V.
David Oldfield
10/01/12 – 16:32
Peter, having trawled again through all my literature on AEC, I confirm that you are correct on the subject of ZF gearboxes fitted to Reliances – they were always synchromesh. For the last fifty years I have laboured under the misapprehension that the A&D 466-480 batch had ZF boxes. We are never too old to learn!
Roger Cox
10/01/12 – 18:04
…..but ZF’s latest, superb, gearbox – the AS-tronic automated gearbox – has no synchromesh on it at all. [The computer doing the changing, the extra weight of the synchromesh was thought to be superfluous.] Volvo obviously agree as their iShift is similarly endowed, as is, I believe Scania’s version.
Photographer unknown : if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1955 AEC Reliance MU3RV Park Royal C41C
Here is a rather nice looking coach which Halifax Corporation acquired in 1966. According to one source of information Halifax acquired it from Timpson of London but according to another source it was originally delivered to Bourne & Balmer of Croydon. Was this coach 2nd or 3rd hand at Halifax if you know please leave a comment. I did actually go on this coach to somewhere but I can’t remember where, but I seem to think that the two front roof windows were tinted a very dark orange.
09/09/11 – 07:08
A little detective work reveals that Bourne & Balmer ceased trading independently on 1st Jan 1960, and either then or later became part of the Timpson operation. So it seems that both sources are correct. In 1967 261 was renumbered 257 and then almost immediately 258. It was rebodied by Plaxton in 1968, and in that form passed to Calderdale JOC in 1971 and to West Yorkshire PTE in 1974.
Peter Williamson
11/09/11 – 07:40
Timpsons acquired Bourne & Balmer in 1960, which probably explains the confusion. NRK 350 was new to Bourne & Balmer in April 1955, passed to Timpsons, and was sold to Halifax JOC in February 1966. Fitted with a new Plaxton body in 1968, passed to West Yorkshire PTE, sold May 1975.
Michael Wadman
03/10/11 – 07:22
Timpson’s acquired the business of Bourne and Balmer (Croydon) Ltd on 17 November 1953, but retained it as a subsidiary until April 1960, when it was closed down and the fleet absorbed into the main Timpson’s fleet. During those years, new coaches were added to the Bourne and Balmer fleet from time to time, NRK 350 being one such vehicle. Even after 1960, Timpson’s continued to paint some of their coaches in Bourne and Balmer livery, with Bourne and Balmer fleetnames, until around 1970. Thus, NRK 350 was new to Bourne and Balmer when it was a Timpson’s subsidiary, and passed into Timpson’s ownership upon the closure of Bourne and Balmer in 1960. It retained Bourne and Balmer livery until the end of 1964.
Dave Williamson
03/10/11 – 11:47
Along with other similar Reliances this bus was given a new Plaxton Panorama body, in his book Steel Wheels and Rubber Tyres Geof Hilditch says that MBY 347 an AEC Reliance bought as an accident victim for £275 Halifax rebuilt it and it was rebodied for £3000 truly a bargain.
Chris Hough
03/01/14 – 08:10
NRK 350 languished after withdrawal in the quarry scrapyard of Bingley Autospares for around nine years from withdrawal in 1975 to 1984 when it was finally broken up. It was surrounded in the yard by other Halifax Titans and Leopard saloons plus Leeds Regent Vs and PD3s.
Rochdale were always a good customer for AEC vehicles especially single deckers all from 1940 were AEC. Front engined Regals to start with to rear engined Swifts with the very dependable underfloor Reliance in between, the above does look quite smart with its Willowbrook body. I do like the roof windows I should imagine that they made the bus feel quite bright and airy. This vehicle passed over to SELNEC on the 1st of November 1969 and probably did many years service with them. The Reliance coding is bit tricky to understand a MU2RA had a synchromesh gearbox and vacuum brakes, what the 6 stood for I do not know, engine size perhaps, if anyone knows all the Reliance coding and what they all stood for please let me know and I will put them on the abbreviations page.
Photograph contributed by Ian Beswick
Thanks to David Oldfield for putting together the codes for the AEC Reliance which can be seen here.
The 6MU2RA had Monocontrol gearboxes and air brakes as had all Rochdale’s Reliances. In the AEC code no 3 stands for Synchromesh and ‘V’ for vacuum brakes. Also Rochdale’s Regals were not front engined but underfloor engined Regal IV’s. They were 1-7 with East Lancs bodies (1951) and 8-15 with Burlingham bodies (1953). All were delivered as B42D but were converted in the late 1950’s to B44F. Four (11/13-15) were sold to Lancaster City Transport around 1957 as the Healey route 2 was converted to double-deck operation and Rochdale had less need for saloons.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
T Severn & Sons Ltd. 1956 AEC Reliance MU3RV Park Royal B41F
Not the best of shots, depot shots very rarely are especially if shooting towards a window. But I think it is worth it as these vehicles were owned by another of the many independents operating in the Doncaster area mainly serving the mining industry. At one particular time T Severn & Sons were one of five operators based in the small village of Stainforth, just shows how big the mining industry was in that area. But I will not dwell on the history as apart from the usual Peter Gould website there are two other sites I have found dealing with the Doncaster independents I have put links to them below. T Severn purchased two of these Reliances PYG 605 and 606 new in 1956, one interesting thing I found out from their fleet list was that 606 was withdrawn in 1963 but 605 stayed on until being withdrawn in 1970. I somehow cannot see the early withdrawal due to vehicle deteriorating so I presume it was because of the increase in passenger numbers and vehicles with an higher capacity were required. The reason I came to that conclusion is that in the 1963/4 period Severns acquired two new and three second hand double deckers, one of them ex London Transport RT331 as well as two coaches. One of the new vehicles is in the above shot, new in 1964 BWW 654B a Leyland Titan PD3/4 with a Roe front entrance body, this vehicle passed onto SYPTE in March 1979 and was numbered 1156 in their fleet. Here are the two links for the history of the Doncaster independents as the links are rather long I have made things easy so there is one here and another one here.
Full lists of Reliance and Titan codes can be seen here.
I think these two vehicles were always ‘dual purpose’, having seats with headrests, but were delivered in plain green/cream livery with straight mouldings. This was altered some time later to the style shown, possibly because neighbour Felix had a Reliance later on with V moulding on the front and Severn had to keep up! As to why one vehicle lasted 7 years longer than the other, we can only guess but Severn’s did odd things sometimes such as going to the trouble of having a PD1 re-bodied, then selling it only three years later, also buying a Bristol K5G into a fleet which had by then virtually standardised on the Leyland O600 in it’s double deckers.
Chris Barker
18/01/12 – 06:47
I believe PYG 606 came to Mowbrays, South Moor, part of the Diamond syndicate, I have photographs of this one in service on the Stanley/Durham service, I drove part time in 1961/63? but never drove this one.
