Potteries Motor Traction 1957 AEC Reliance 470 Weymann B44F
This is one of many AEC Reliance 470 with standard BET style Weymann bodies (B44F) operated by PMT. This particular example dates from 1957 denoted by the 7 prefix to the fleet number. Allocated to Milton Depot at the time, it has come to grief sliding into a ditch adjacent to some road works whilst on an inward journey on the 43 from the village of Stanley to Hanley – which is the main town of the Stoke on Trent conurbation. Milton Depot had an allocation of about 20 buses, mainly single decks for services such as the one shown plus three lowbridge Atlanteans and I think three MCW highbridge Leyland PD3/4 for the Hanley to Abbey Hulton services. Inside the depot was a survivor – engineless AEC Regal ex fleet number S315 KEH 608 which was in use as the staff canteen. It later went to Hollis of Queensferry for preservation – wonder what happened to it? Going back to SN7693, I remember a call we took concerning a bus on fire somewhere out in the Staffordshire countryside. It turned out to be SN7680 of the same batch but by the time we reached it in a narrow country lane all that remained was a chassis – and some burnt grass banks either side of the road.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
These were the last batch of this type of body they had stick operated doors, Newcastle garage finished up with SN7688 which I would drive often as I thought it was a much better bus than the new Reliances we had with Alexander bodies, it had a good exhaust on it too.
Michael Crofts
Strange you should mention stick operated doors because Trent’s Tiger Cubs of the 1950’s had them. I remember thinking they had two gear sticks! The one to the right of the driver was forward when the doors were closed and then pulled back (a good pull was required!) and this pulled a flexible wire through a tube to open the doors, which were a mixture of jack-knife and two-piece. I often wondered if many fleets specified this apparatus. It fell out of favour by the end of the 50’s when something more sophisticated was felt necessary!
Chris Barker
Sheffield Transport amassed quite a fleet of Leyland Leopard Coaches between 1959 and 1961 with Weymann Fanfare, ECW and Burlingham bodywork. I did not have much cause to travel on them but I do remember that some, at least, (including the Weymann?) had this stick operation to their doors. These were full coaches with proper, heavy, coach doors – in the days when no coach had air assisted doors.
David Oldfield
My recollection is that earlier PMT Weymann bodied Reliances SN5573-5612 had electrically operated doors. I think lever operated doors commenced with SN6627-6646 and continued right through single deck deliveries including the 34 Albion Aberdonians until the ‘Jubilee’ batch SL801-810 when power operation recommenced. We avoided OMO conversions on lever door vehicles for as long as possible and of course the Aberdonians were never modified for OMO. David mentions the lever operated doors on the Sheffield Leopards and I can recall a trip out to Bakewell on one of the B fleet Weymann Fanfare vehicles when fairly new (probably early 1960) where a friend and I sat on the front nearside seat and assisted with operating the door by hand as the driver was having difficulty with the lever operation from the cab!! The Fanfare vehicles were never modified to power operation whereas the Burlingham and ECW batches were later converted for OMO which included power operated doors.
Ian Wild
All the AEH reg batch AECs had the stick doors along with all the Albions.
Michael Crofts
With the delivery of 25 Alexander bodied Reliances in 1961, this brought a total to 150 of the 30 foot Reliances at PMT, most having Weymann bodies apart from another 10 Willowbrook bodied ones.
Michael Crofts
10/12/11 – 14:58
There were also a few Albion versions with this body operating Chell to Longton at this time. All three, Leyland, AEC and Albion had their own distinctive engine sound. Anyone know who made the engines for the Albion?
Mr Anon
11/12/11 – 06:57
The Albions would have been Aberdonians – light-weight Leyland Tiger Cubs. The lightweight was in axle and chassis construction. They both shared the same Leyland Comet engine (0.350 version). Albions always had Albion gearboxes. [At different times, the Tiger Cub could have either a Leyland or an Albion box.]
David Oldfield
11/12/11 – 06:59
The Albion Aberdonian was a lighter weight version of the already lightweight Leyland Tiger Cub. It was powered by the Leyland O.350 engine of 5.76 litres giving 94 bhp, and was coupled to the Albion five speed constant mesh gearbox. It proved to be something of a frail beast, and most of the operators that tried it didn’t come back for more. Production ceased around 1960.
Roger Cox
11/12/11 – 11:20
The Albion Aberdonian had the same Leyland engine as the Leyland Tiger Cub, but strangely no Tiger Cub growl.
Peter Williamson
11/12/11 – 16:11
I always preferred the Aberdonian to the Tiger Cub, partly because I was brought with them. North Western’s batch of six spent most of their lives at Oldham depot and were the mainstay of the Saddleworth local services, running past my front door every half hour. I always thought they were quieter than the Tiger Cub and in retrospect I put that down to the Tiger Cub’s fan, although I don’t know if I’m correct in this. The Albions had, shall we say, a distinctive vibration when idling. The only Aberdonian in preservation to my knowledge is the East Yorkshire one and that made the same sounds despite having a different body. It’s a bus I haven’t heard of for many years – does anyone know of its current status? There are a few pictures of North Western’s Albions in my Saddleworth Buses gallery at: //davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/ where they will be found in the 156, 157 and 158 collections. (This gallery is still developing but the collections relevant to these buses have been done.)
David Beilby
13/12/11 – 08:58
I too had a soft spot for the Aberdonian, despite my only first-hand experience of them being the Manchester ones with Seddon bodies of almost third-world standard. I always feel that the model had a rough deal being marketed as an alternative to the Tiger Cub, as an urban bus or express coach, when it would have been much happier doing the sort of jobs that Bedfords did – pottering around villages on market days or providing day trips to the seaside – but giving the passengers a more refined experience than a Bedford could. As far as I know, Plaxton-bodied Aberdonian coach XUP 692 is still with us, but it now very audibly boasts a Leyland 401 engine, and by all accounts goes like a rocket. I wish one of the Charlie’s Cars Harringtons had survived.
Peter Williamson
13/12/11 – 11:21
There’s an idea for another thread on the web-site – re-engining with similar, but different and larger, engines. I am already aware of AV760 powered RTs and RMs!
David Oldfield
15/12/11 – 06:52
When I drove for Stanley Gath of Dewsbury he had an ex O.K Motor Services Roe bodied AEC Reliance RUP 768 that had a rod operated entrance door. The bus was always called Rupert for obvious reasons.
Philip Carlton
26/04/14 – 07:24
I used to go to work on the Albions from Chell to Hanley and the gearbox seemed to be arranged from right to left, very different from the Leyland and AEC. Can anyone verify this?
Clive Reynolds
27/04/14 – 08:06
Clive, the gear selector gate on the PMT Albions was exactly the same as any other bus in the fleet. They had a five speed Albion constant mesh unit fitted. The linkage was very sloppy giving the effect to the driver of stirring a very thick pudding when trying to locate each gear! The Tiger Cubs that were acquired from Stratford Blue in 1971 had exactly the same gearbox but with a Leyland designed selector arrangement. The gear change on these was much more positive (and heavy!) but once you acquired the knack, I always thought a pleasant bus to drive. Mind you, I didn’t have to operate them in service on one man services.
Ian Wild
18/03/20 – 06:53
With regards to the electric operated doors, SN5573 to SN5612 plus SN6627 to SN6646 were so fitted.
This photograph was taken on 26 June 1958 at North Landing, Flamborough, adjacent to the terminus of the East Yorkshire route from Bridlington. It is one of my very first transport photographs, taken during a family holiday at Flamborough. One attraction would no doubt have been the nice shiny coach on the right, new that year to Boddys. They had two other Yeates bodied Reliances that year, VBT 191 and VBT 192, of which VBT 191 is currently preserved with Fowler of Holbeach Drove. The other coach MWB 531 belonged to H. G. Anfield (also of Bridlington?) this is a Commer Avenger I with a Plaxton C33F body, and was new to Sellers of Sheffield, and it was number 7 in their fleet. I presume these would have been on half day tours from Bridlington?
A most interesting picture from a very well loved area. Firstly, yes, Anfields were from Bridlington, and operated from very basic premises behind the Gas Showrooms adjacent to the railway level crossing in Quay Road. The question as to whether the two coaches were on any kind of excursion from Bridlington is intriguing as the journey is only about four miles or so each way and could be accomplished by frequent service buses – perhaps the ultimate destination was Flamborough after a longer scenic ride beforehand ?? Another thought arises too – I wonder if the Anfield operation and vehicles had recently been taken over by the much more prosperous and presentable Boddy’s ??
Chris Youhill
That`s another old Bridlington independent. I remember it from earlier days, about 1946. Did they not have a stage service about that time from Filey to Flamborough? A Bradford neighbour had a PLSC Lion bungalow just under the old lighthouse, about 100 yards from where the photo was taken. I remember Mr Brock, the owner, telling me it was purchased from Boddys, but I also remember him telling me it was purchased from a Bradford yard in 1946, so not sure whose it was. Did Boddys also have an ex YWD or West Riding centre entrance Roe TD2, or am I mixing memories with Williamson??!!
John Whitaker
John, I don’t remember any independents having a service from Filey to Flamborough to be honest. Similarly I can’t recall Boddy’s having double deckers, but there WERE no less than seven ex YWD centre entrance Leyland TD2s in Bridlington. White Bus Service had HD 4625 and 4631. Williamsons had HD 4629/4630/4801/4803/4810. The latter was an incredible fleet considering that only two vehicles were needed to operate the town services to Old Town or Queensgate – and there were always a few interesting single deckers in stock as well.
Chris Youhill
Thanks Chris for the Williamson/WBS detail. My memory is very blurred, but I remember the centre entrances so well, and have this vague recollection of riding on one well outside Brid, the other side of Flamborough. Did WBS run past Flamborough? My main memory of Boddys is as you say, a coach company. I intend checking the OS archive regarding these 2 fleets Chris, but I think this may not be necessary as you are a mine of information here. Very grateful for it all.
John Whitaker
Many thanks John for your kind appreciation, but do please make whatever further checks you can – I’m afraid that advancing years mean that output from the “mine of information” reduces from time to time and sometimes contains samples of “nutty slack.” !! Your journey with WBS will no doubt have been on either HD 4625 or 4631 and the WBS service to Flamborough did have two distinct branches at the outer end – one to North Landing and the other to Lighthouse – which may have given the impression of further territory although I am not aware of the Firm ever having ventured further.
Chris Youhill
O frabjous day, etc, etc. What a joy to see actual photos of John Boddy’s fleet. One of my favourite fleets of my younger days. I well remember, staying in Brid in a flat in West Street, overlooking his Garage on the corner of New Burlington Road. Every morning at 8am the doors would be opened to reveal a wealth of red and cream vehicles. He also has another garage down Horsforth Avenue and one in Hull, at Morrill Street, off Holderness Road. As far as I am aware he never operated any stage services, but many trips to the local area. Mr Boddy also operated a fleet of taxis, as he would personally collect my late grandma, from Brid station to where she stayed for 3 or 4 months each year. Just as an afterthought I am trying to compile a complete fleet list for Boddy’s, but I believe there are a lot of vehicles which were purchased for spares or rebuilding, I’d love to hear from anyone who has a complete list.
Keith Easton
I can give Keith just two snippets of information which may be of interest. Boddy’s also had a very tiny garage for two or three vehicles at the Town end of Hilderthorpe Road – it is still there I think, but I can’t remember just which business occupies it now. Also , unknown to me at the time and I could kick myself, Boddy’s had an ex Samuel Ledgard Leyland KP3 Cub with Ledgard B20F bodywork, one of a batch of four built in the famous Armley workshops. It was UG 521 of 1932 and was sold to Boddy’s in 4/46 and then sold to Freeman of Brough in 11/46 who sold it to Thompson of North Newbald in 6/54.
Chris Youhill
Chris (Y), thanks for those two items. Boddy actually had both UG 521 and UG 522, both acquired august, 1946 (before my time) 521 was withdrawn May, 1950, and 522 by November, 1948, this one is listed as going to Bailey of Fangfoss. I’m not certain, but I think the garage in Hildethorpe Road, is now owned by a small local car dealer, whose name escapes me at the moment, was it opposite the end of Station Approach (now the entrance to Tesco’s)?
Keith Easton
Interesting views indeed Keith and, as sometimes happens, both conflict with PSV Circle records which show 521 as I mentioned above, and 522 as sold to Bailey of Fangfoss by 5/47?? The little garage in Hilderthorpe Road must be yet another premises, as it is on the same side as Station Approach but much nearer the town centre, in a very small yard, just before the road turns sharp left into Bridge Street (I think it is) to join up with Queen Street near the Brunswick pub. If only we could turn the clock back and finalise these things it would be so very satisfying. I am very long overdue for a visit to friends in Bridlington and must put this right as soon as the daylight prolongs and the weather improves.
Chris Youhill
Thanks Chris, I Know exactly where you mean now, but what it is now, I’m not really sure, it’s in what is now the tattier end of Hilderthorpe Road. UGH 522 date may be a bad transcription on my part, as I took the details down in a rush. Incidentally I still remember the White Bus stand in Queen Street, Ah happy days! If only I’d been a little bit older at the time I’d remember more of what is now gone for ever. Brid was a beautiful town in those days.
Speaking of White Bus, did Boddy’s take over the WBC office in Queen Street? As I recall, when I moved to Brid in 1990, it was in use by Appleby’s (as successor to Boddy?)
Regarding Anfield, I don’t really know what happened to him, as far as I am aware, he was not acquired by Boddy’s. Obviously he was still operating in 1958, when the photo was taken, but I have no recollection of Anfield vehicles in the late 50’s.
Keith Easton
05/02/11 – 05:56
John Boddy in the 1950s I had little interest in buses – So annoying as my Godfather was a relative of some sort – However in the 60s he told me that John had made a gents agreement to buy Williamsons out when the time came. However EYMS and the Traffic Commissioners had other ideas – Commissioners said that it would be preferable for a BET concern to operate local Stage Carriage services. I am sure Boddy had to be compensated. As for Anfields I believe they just folded. I have an old picture of their motor garage on quay road which I will send to Peter
Ian Gibbs
05/02/11 – 09:37
Keith and Ian – Thank you for further most interesting reminiscences of the Good Old Days in Bridlington. I’m not sure if Appleby’s took over the Queen Street office of WBS direct but it seems most likely as I believe they did take over Boddy’s operation in the town. Boddy’s also had a booking kiosk in the Promenade somewhere nearly opposite the Grand Pavilion Theatre.
Here is one of my own amateur teenage snapshots of Anfield’s Quay Road premises, around 1951/2, with some fascinating gems to be seen.
Chris Youhill
05/02/11 – 16:22
Chris and Keith- Boddy’s had the small end building on the promenade close to and almost opposite York Road which was the same side as Pavilion I recollect Appleby’s using this for visitors trip bookings with boards standing under a window for York City Various Abbeys etc. The adjacent open area allowed coaches to pull on and park up to load. Boddys often had that lovely ex West Riding coach on there I think it is preserved. Behind this open area was a high wall where a side lane ran down to the Thorn Road Coach Park for out of town coach parking. Incidentally York Road opposite side of Promenade had a huge premises of Garage and Ice Rink above. It was never a rink when I knew it but it had been the premises of a 1920s Bus Firm Called Tooth & Waddington (They had 3 different owners but no space here for all that saga.) T&W ran 6d circular tours around the area for visitors and locals. One route ran up to Flamborough via Sands Lane, Limekiln Lane, Sewerby, 1921-ish. This route was one that Reuben Williamson was trying out (Stage Carriage)with a Double Deck Motorbus, However Charles Williamson, Reubens Son, (aged over 80 when I met him) told me that due to the competition of T&W (who were basically Pirates-well it is near the Sea!) Reuben’s revenues were poor that Williamsons gave it up, returning to the two routes of Old Town-Quay and Queensgate – to Town. T&W got their reward when as they overstretched the finances owing for petrol and had to sell out to Archer Robinson in 1924 (Robinson’s story is quite interesting he never worked his staff on Sundays-but if you lost a spanner from the set of tools he provided for Roadside repairs he stopped 6d a week from your pay to pay for another one) This in turn let Blue Bus in as they had no qualms about Sunday Ops. So I will let you digest this.
Ian Gibbs
05/02/11 – 19:23
Hi Chris & Ian, what a wonderful “can of worms” this topic has unearthed. With regard to Boddy’s Hilderthorpe Road garage, I believe it is the one which is set back behind a shop which is now called “Bygones”, as I had a drive-by last week, but couldn’t stop as I had Mrs E. on board and she was keen to get on, but if I’m correct, it has been used by, if not still by, a limo hire company. I like the picture of Anfield’s garage and vehicles, but I still have no recollection of him at all. With another query; who owned the enquiry office at the Spa end of West Street, as I recall seeing boards leaning up outside advertising Boddy’s tours and excursions? I believe that a guy called Gibbs related the T&W, Robinson etc, goings-on in a book on EYMS!!! I recall the enquiry office on the Promenade, at least when it was Appleby’s. Boddy sold out to Appleby’s in May, 1983, which gave Appleby’s a foothold in both Hull and Brid, but I’m not sure where their Scarborough ops came from, unless it was post de-reg competition. In the early 1990’s I recall passing the Horsforth Avenue garage, with 3 Appleby coaches inside. Incidentally does anyone have an Anfield fleet list, as I know of only 1 vehicle!
Keith Easton
06/02/11 – 17:09
Here is the shot that I forgot to attach to my last posting.
Ian Gibbs
06/02/11 – 18:29
Thanks a million for that fabulous picture Ian – the garage and yard were behind that imposing building which I’d forgotten all about long ago. I shall treasure the memory I assure you – another important piece in the Bridlington transport jigsaw!!
Chris Youhill
10/02/11 – 05:53
Trying to find the location of Anfiled’s premises on the photo! Where was it Ian? The nearest I can guess is just north of Quay Road crossing north of Moorfield Road, adjacent to what is now Higgs & Barker. Am I close or not?
Keith Easton
11/02/11 – 06:47
Keith and Chris Anfields garage was at the rear of the building on photo it is as you thought Keith Moorfield Road went up the side towards the rear of Moorfield School at the far end was a White Bus Garage which I believe only took single deckers. There were four very dilapidated cottages built adjoining the Anfield Garage all were demolished. I am seeking further advice on the matter and will post any details. One puzzling query for you Keith re EYMS Fleet Listed on it is YX 5215 Dennis E – no further details given – I emailed EY about this bus around 2 years ago but no reply – I offered a possibility for this Dennis B Coach – Hale Garage and Coaches were bought out by EY in 1933 (the date given by Fleet History) so did this vehicle come from Hale? Just a guess but I was sorry that no response came back. Can anyone confirm the source maybe PSVC have some record. Perhaps I should produce some booklet or other on Brids Passenger Pioneers Motor Buses began in 1905 so rival Ezra Laycock. Brid being a Seaside Resort had many Pirates or Entrepreneurs shall I say, One ran a Serpollet Steam Bus in 1910!
Ian Gibbs
12/02/11 – 09:41
Ian & Chris, Hi, thanks for the confirmation on Anfield’s garage & premises. Now for YX 5215; I’m basically responsible for this one, but there is no official confirmation by the company, indeed their historical records commence in 1987 (when privatised), the details on the website prior to this date is basically from my fleet list, as supplied to John Whitaker (see Leyland PD1 JAT 455 – 487). The Dennis did indeed come from Hale Garage, and was East Yorkshire’s share of the vehicles. I came across the details shown some time ago, in Keith Jenkinson’s book on West Yorkshire, or if not there, I cannot recall where it was. I would, of course, welcome confirmation or correction of the matter. I, personally would welcome a book on Brid’s motor-bus heritage, if you could ever get around to it! Ezra Laycock was the first bus in West Yorkshire, and it would be good to know that Brid had the first bus in East Yorkshire!
Keith Easton
12/02/11 – 09:44
Ian, we eagerly await your Bridlington booklet so please begin writing as soon as possible. To those of us with such treasured memories of the Town and its fascinating transport such a work would be very welcome. I think I’ve mentioned this incredible little fact before, but I daresay it stands repeating – as a sign of respect to the Sabbath the Williamson’s bus stop pole in Chapel Street did an astonishing switch on Sundays. On weekdays it was located in a pavement socket right outside the Chapel front doors – but on Sundays it was moved lower down to another socket nearer to the Promenade junction – Mr. Wesley and others would have been very impressed indeed.
Chris Youhill
12/02/11 – 10:51
Keith. First, many thanks for the EYMS list which I am gradually absorbing with glee! Ian. I think a booklet about Bridlington`s bus pioneers would make fascinating reading. From the EYMS list, there were several takeovers in the region, including the post war ones of Williamson, but who were “Blue Bus” and “Bridlington and District”? Its a truly fascinating history, and, for me at any rate, crammed full of nostalgia! Does anyone have a photo to post of the Doncaster “Renown” running for Williamson? I look forward to many more posts on the subject. Just wish I could contribute more, but my memories of Brid are from regular holidays there up to about 1955, and then much less frequently.
John Whitaker
13/02/11 – 06:25
Hi Ian, back to YX 5215; The details quoted are those when owned by West Yorkshire, with the exception of the bodywork. For origins see your book on EYMS, page 28. When it passsed to WYRCC, it was rebodied with a Brush B31C body. It is possible that this was a second-hand body, and as such it may have caried the YX mark, which was, of course, a West Riding mark anyway. If this is the case, the registration when acquired by East Yorkshire, would have been different. Chris, Blue Bus, was Archer Robinson’s company which was acquired by the LNER (indirectly) and passed to United, along with Bridlington & District and Scarborough District. In 1930 these three companies, due to their locations, were split between East Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and United. Thirdly Ian, I think that you are now committed to a “Brid book” or you will have at least two very disappointed enthusiasts!
Keith Easton
p.s. Sorry Chris, I meant John (W). Incidentally Archer Robinson, built a cafe at the terminus of his route to Flamborough, North Landing, I believe that it is still present today, or at least there is a cafe there in use, at the end of a very bumpy ride.
13/02/11 – 06:30
Sorry John, but I don’t know of any photo of the Renown – however I do have a Robert F. Mack picture of the Leyland Titanic from the same town making a spirited turn from the Promenade into Queen Street – with a remarkable display of exhaust fumes to show that it means business !!
Chris Youhill
13/02/11 – 18:39
Do submit it for us to see, Chris Y. You can’t beat a photo with atmosphere, even if the atmosphere is about to choke all around the Titanic!
Chris Hebbron
14/02/11 – 09:22
Yes Chris, please do! I had no idea that there was also a Titanic! When did White Bus start up, and Williamson for that matter, after EY had absorbed (presumably) all the Brid area independents? I remember Doncaster 6 wheelers of both types used as Skipsea bungalows c. 1950. Perhaps these were connected with WBS in some way, or maybe just a coincidence. There were 2, still in Doncaster maroon, lined up on the cliff top minus engines, but otherwise intact, and later they were painted up in their holiday home colours. I cannot remember Anfield at all, but what a collection of delights there were in the photo of their garage on (Hildethorpe Rd.?)
John Whitaker
Chris contributed his shot of the Williamson’s Titanic, but I do not want it to be just lost in a long list of comments so I have uploaded it as a separate posting but it is here as well to keep this thread going.
Peter
14/02/11 – 09:43
Copyright Robert F. Mack
Here is the picture of Williamson’s ex Doncaster Titanic (76 – DT 9643) in action in Queen Street. Unfortunately the destination blind is obscured by the sun but would say either “The Quay and Queensgate” or “Old Town and The Quay”, depending on whether it was quarter to or quarter past the hour, or on the hour or half past. It was a 1938 Titanic TT5c and served only one year in Bridlington, from July 1949 to July 1950. Possibly its Titanic running costs, maybe aggravated by the torque converter, resulted in this short career. In view of the notorious maritime disaster of 1912 I’ve always thought it either brave or cavalier of Leyland to give the model this particular name !!
Chris Youhill
14/02/11 – 13:03
Chris. Thanks indeed are due for this wonderful picture! I wonder if this is the bus, or one of `em which finished up at Skipsea? Like you say, torque converter with 3 axles must have made them expensive to run on such a short urban route, but I suppose they were more modern than most second hand availability at that time? Presumably the TD2s were in stock at the same time, or did they replace the Doncasters, as the TD2s ex YWD survived until the takeover. Absolutely fascinating!
John Whitaker
14/02/11 – 15:09
Several large Sheffield double deckers were on the Caravan site on the Marton Road Camp owned by Mr Mortlock possibly the Titanic went there. Re White Bus Service they began with two Ford Charas according to John Boddy, for visitors in the area. White Bus Service replaced the 2 Fords (TT Baicos?) with 4 Lancia Z types. All were charas named after Musicals of the 20s. Archer Robinson DID have a cafe at Thornwick to provide Patrons refreshments, Incidentally their Lancias had to go in reverse near the cafe as the petrol flowed backwards from the carburettors uphill, whilst the Horse buses passed them!
Ian Gibbs
14/02/11 – 16:17
I have found the above Boddy’s letterhead in my “Letters Files”, In the letter John Boddy Jr States that John Boddy & Son agreed to buy Town Licenses from Williamsons, Both EYMS and Bridlington Borough Council objected on the grounds that the service could be more co-ordinated if EYMS bought Williamsons. He also noted that a Leyland Lion was bought in early days of WW2 from Grey-de-Luxe of Hull (Formerly Burn’s Grey Bus Service which EYMS Bought out in 1926)
Following the sale of Burn’s Grey Bus Service to EYMS, the former owners (with £7,100 in hand), being Messrs’, Burn, Tyler and Solly, set up the new business “Grey-de-Luxe Luxury Coaches” (with Eric Russell joining later). The Grey-de Luxe name came about because David Burn bought an ex-Motor Show coach in c1927 it had a Maroon & Grey Livery. Finally in the above letterhead for Grey-de-Luxe mentions objections to Christmas Day Service in Hull 1931, (I believe one of the objectors was ‘Kingston Motors’) who were running up to Hessle, so their Route would suffer losses over Christmas, EYMS bought ‘Kingston Motors’ out as ‘Hull City Motor Works’ in June 1932. If there is interest in Burn’s and Co I have a picture of the new owners with their Coaches.
Ian Gibbs
15/02/11 – 06:18
Chris on my copy of the photo of the Titanic, the display clearly reads “The Quay and” the bottom line appears to be “Queensgate” but it is not very clear. Ian, of course there’s interest! Any local operator (Hull & East Riding) is of interest. On another matter no-one picked me up on this, in my post on the 13th, Archer Robinson traded as Green Bus, which became Bridlington & District, whilst Blue Bus was J Atkin’s company, otherwise the remains of my comment stands. Sorry for the error, but the grey cells are a bit rusty.
Keith Easton
15/02/11 – 06:20
Thx, Chris Y, for posting the Titanic. I see your point about the trail of exhaust smoke, blurring Montague Burton’s establishment in the background! It’s a very modest building, compared with most around. And I like the name of the Gipsy Lee shop, whatever it sold! I fully agree about Leyland’s risky choice of model name for these vehicles. Maybe this is why AEC’s Renown had higher sales!
Chris Hebbron
15/02/11 – 06:52
I have the photos above of BT 9820 which in the PSVC list is quoted as a Dennis ex Enterprise (Fussey) of Cottingham, but the photo here is definitely a Leyland. Any Ideas?
Keith Easton
15/02/11 – 15:22
Keith and all, As for BT 9820 I too noticed this when I compared Fussey’s Dennis and this picture of the sale to EYMS of Burn’s Bus Service. David Burn was in the frame in a suit I recall. I reckoned that someone swopped Plates after the Fussey and Burns sales took place, if the ‘Enterprise’ Dennis was taxed but not a runner and the Leyland was serviceable well save a few bob, We can only guess! My copy of the Fussey’s Dennis is very poor – hint The ‘Enterprise’ name was due to the 1926 Strike! Tom Fussey ferried Naval Personnel to and from the Docks, during the Strike. He befriended the Captain of HMS Enterprise, so applied the ship’s name to two vehicles. The 2 Daimlers EYMS acquired with the Dennis’s may have had Logos, these were Nully Secundus and Non Pareils. Tom Fussey began with Horse Buses taking over from a Publican.
Ian Gibbs
16/02/11 – 05:54
Paul H – I bet her crystal ball needed a good wipe over every time the Titanic passed by!
Chris Hebbron
16/02/11 – 06:00
Ian, and other interested parties, I suspected that this was a Burns bus, by the destination box which reads “Hull & Withernsea” This vehicle is not recorded in the PSVC book PB17, perhaps this remained with Burn along with the Leyland Lion BT 9981. This would make Burns total fleet size 8 vehicles. With regard to Fussey’s Dennis, I very much suspect that I have the same photo as you as mine is identical to the one in your book (page 15), however I did try blowing it up, and whilst not being 100% certain, the registration could possibly have been BT 9520. I did query this with the PSVC and they confirmed the BT 9820 mark, but perhaps this was a bad transcription by the motor taxation office?
Keith Easton
16/02/11 – 16:44
Keith and all, Dennis BT9820 is on page 15 of Dennis Buses in Camera a better picture of this very Bus. My file for BT gives BT9820 Exors E Fussey new 7/26 As you say correctly the Leyland is Burn’s is it carrying this plate in EYMS control 1927? used for Withernsea Services by them? I see that Fussey’s was (officially) bought 24 Nov 1927
Ian Gibbs
17/02/11 – 07:04
Going back to Archer Robinson (Green Bus/Bridlington & District); his garage in Brid at Cliff Street is very much in evidence even today, but is in use as a cafe. It is located on the corner of Cliff Street and Cross Street. Ian, does the photo of the Dennis, in the book, show the registration plate any clearer than my small photo? Also you mention your BT file? this and any other similar files must be very interesing indeed.
Keith Easton
18/02/11 – 07:37
Chris, Keith, John re Anfields The Higgs-Barker Forecourt was built on Quay Rd site, Anfields land had 4 houses, known as Bishops Terrace, next a Cinema, then Anfields garage. Keith Archer Robinson Garage, There was a photo of it in EYMS files! Archers graage photo was by late Geoff Atkins he wrote me that the 1941 Hull Blitz hit EYMS Chambers he supplied them many original prints to make up lost pics. He did not put his name to them he sent me some in 1983 these ones I saw at EY in 1960s they must be at EYMS The Dennis photo in Camera BOOK is a good one. My files are the result of years transcribing data by hand for my Vehicle data and meeting bus men (on my Moped). In 2010 I was told it now costs TEN pounds for a single search per document for photocopy or email! can’t afford it. Incidentally I lost a folder in 1980 It held Licensing data from 1911-1926 for buses drivers conductors in Hull hand copied (Own fault) If anyone’s found it-Likely!! let me know! Too much about me this is a bus site.
Ian Gibbs
18/02/11 – 19:32
Hello all. I have been reading your comments on Bridlington area operators with interest, and yes I would like to see a book about Bridlington operators, that’s about four you have sold now Ian (I did buy both copies of your EYMS book and supplied several pics for the book!) I visited Anfields depot on 16-5-65 looking though the side door of the new garage building and the following coaches were parked in there as well as several cars, LJR 554, 3529 BT, 3205 BT, LNP 892 & RWF 714, but I did not have my camera with me when I went Bridlington old bus garage hunting last year. I have sent the pictures above of Williamson ex depot at 25 Havelock Crescent, 16 Havelock Crescent was also an address of Williamson but is a house now.
Mike Davies
20/02/11 – 06:34
Mike Davies and all, Interesting pictures of Havelock Crescent Mike you have reminded me I might have a photo of the Williamson garage when the GPO rented it. Re Titanic bodies Mortlocks Camps there appears to have been more than one bought for parts cannibalised towed to camp wheels removed taken back to depot. They were popular for camping being large there was room for a better kitchen.
Ian Gibbs
27/02/11 – 16:16
I worked for Boddys coaches for many years and can confirm about 1968/9ish Boddys took over Anfields with 3 coaches ie 4777 VM, 319 FWB & 3529 BT which was always breaking down, also Boddys sold out to Applebys at the Hull depot a year or so before selling the Brid business.
Ken Wragg
03/03/11 – 08:53
Hello Ken, I was talking to Dave Longbottom last summer about Boddy’s Coaches and he mentioned your name, as being someone who had kept a very detailed record of the fleet, including buses acquired for spares or rebuilding. If you still have this information, and it is readily accessible, I would be very interested to see a copy of it, if at all possible. I can be contacted via Peter at the website. Many thanks Keith.
Keith Easton
03/03/11 – 10:44
Yes details of vehicles acquired for spares by Boddys would be very interesting, Ken.
Mike Davies
07/03/11 – 11:32
I can confirm that Boddys and Anfields coaches would both have been operating an afternoon tour to Flambro North Landing and then on to Flambro Lighthouse and back for tea, then maybe a mystery trip in the evening, both companies ran in competition to each other.
Ken Wragg
08/03/11 – 14:32
I am working my way through the comments and can confirm that Boddys ran a service probably starting at Filey via Hunmanby Cortainly Speeton Buckton Bempton to Flambro this info came from John Boddy jnr and older staff members as a result of me finding a stock of bell punch tickets in a cupboard during a clear out. I do not know what buses were used, the service was run by EYMS by 1966 when I did 2 seasons working for them before I started at Boddys, what many folk don,t know is both Boddys and Anfields, bought old buses both d/d & s/d to sell to folk to make holiday homes, that is why there where many on the local camps. However earlier on during shortages of buses in the 2nd world war many of the earlier holiday homes were repurchased and remade into buses I was told of a Anfield one reversing out of the garage with the paint still wet and a chimney still on the roof. Boddys acquired a ex Sheffield Leyland PD2 in the 1970,s purely for the engine to put into EHL 336 it only stayed a few days as we did not have garage clearance for it and DTY 442 towed it away to a scrapyard at Worksop were they were both broke up.
Ken Wragg
09/03/11 – 06:09
Very interesting Ken do you know any registration numbers for the buses turned into holiday homes or the Sheffield decker ? I believe Boddys acquired KHCT’s RH 8473/8475/8476 & 8477f or spares in 11/45 – did these also end up as holiday homes?
Mike Davies
09/03/11 – 12:14
Thanks to Ken, the origin of the Flamborough PLSC Lion bungalow of a Bradford neighbour can be confirmed! I well remember being told it was bought from Boddys, even though I have never seen a PLSC reference in their fleet. Thank You Ken, also, for the confirmation of Boddys Filey to Flamborough service, which I was sure I remembered riding on, and not quite as sure remembering it as a centre entrance bus. Perhaps on its way to Williamsons, as I am talking about 1947. Maybe the fascinating array of old buses at Skipsea in those years came from Boddys. There were certainly 2 Roe 6 wheelers from about 1948/9 Tram bodies galore too!
John Whitaker
09/03/11 – 17:57
There was still a tram body at Skipsea up to recent times, not sure if it is still there, but it did appear in the background of a recent “South Riding”series. There are a lot of old sheds and caravans, but I doubt if there are any buses left.
Mike Davies
10/03/11 – 08:52
Re. Mike’s comment about Skipsea: From 1948 to 1963, we had a Bradford tram body at Skipsea, until the sea eroded our little patch of land! Within 200 yards each way from us were:- N.Western RC TS, West Yorkshire TS B10A, Yorkshire Trac. TD1 (Enclosed), Bradford 6 wheel “Paddler” trolleybus, and the 2 Doncaster 6 wheelers, one of which I think, was an AEC. There were plenty more further away, along with sheds, railway coaches and tram bodies galore! Just wondering how many of these buses were supplied by Boddys??!!
John Whitaker
11/03/11 – 07:39
I would very much like any details of the Anfield-Boddy fleets too Ken, also your input re any notes I submit-thanks in advance.
Ian Gibbs
11/03/11 – 11:10
In my 1951/2 photo of Anfield’s yard, which appears earlier in this topic, there is an ex Doncaster six wheeler against the left wall in the view. The bus was in “as arrived” well worn maroon and I’m sure was never used by Anfield’s, and so I suppose its likely that this was one of the many destined for the coast and for use as a holiday or permanent home.
Chris Youhill
11/03/11 – 16:31
I never noticed the “Doncaster” at the side of your Anfield’s depot view Chris. Brilliant. I bet it was one of the duo which finished up at Skipsea! They would make a very durable holiday home, especially being teak framed!
John Whitaker
11/03/11 – 18:47
This tram body was still at Skipsea and may still be on site.
Mike Davies
13/03/11 – 10:56
I went to Skipsea today (Saturday 12th March) and can confirm the tram body is still there, but no buses!!
Mike Davies.
14/03/11 – 07:43
Hi Mike. The tram body photo takes me way way back, and I am amazed that it is still there! This is a Hull car by the look of it, and probably not one that went to Leeds with it being a 3 window car, although I think some 3 windows did get to Leeds. Imagine what Skipsea cliff top was like in the post war years to about 1965, when all the delightful old buses, trams and railway coaches adorned the cliff edge, from the edge of the bombing range towards Atwick, right down past Ulrome, almost to Barmston! I often make the walk in my imagination, to see if I can remember the detail of any others which I have not mentioned, and feel sure I remember this Hull car as being quite near the Atwick end. Maybe wrong, as I can remember other Hulls. Thanks for going, and thanks for reviving all those memories!
John Whitaker
14/03/11 – 08:52
The East Yorkshire area in the 1940s/50s was an absolute Mecca of holiday residences which had once been passenger vehicles. When I was in the RAF at Patrington in 1955/6 the A1033 from the village to Withernsea, and the Spurn peninsula in general hosted some magnificent withdrawn vehicles from the prewar days. A particularly rich site was on a sharp bend known as “Hollym Corner” – why oh why didn’t I take some pictures of PLSC Lions, Gilfords and other gems ??
Chris Youhill
15/03/11 – 14:55
Mention of Hollym Corner by Chris Youhill, reminds me that on Hollym Road Withernsea, was Kemp Brothers Garage I send a copy picture of a 1931 Gilford 1680T, ch 11965 owned by Mainline London, It came to Kemp from Mainline – date not known to me – someone is sure to know the details, if so what is the source please, also I believe it was rebodied by Barnaby’s Hull c1943.
Ian Gibbs
15/03/11 – 16:28
just to clarify, Boddys when I joined them in 1967 had 3 garages, Horsforth Ave were the repairs etc were done West St was a storage garage, and Hilderthorpe Rd was also the registered office the garage at the rear held only 3 coaches, if you were to take up the foundations there you will find various chassis holding up the floor as there is a river behind it. Also there was a booking office at the front, and one at the harbour end of West St and the promenade were there was a large car park/coach loading point. Excursions were also run from Filey bus station booking at a hut on site that was made by Boddys and can be seen in a few old EYMS photos at Filey bus station, these excursions passed to Primrose Valley coaches in the 1970s. Another excursion point was Butlins Camp at Filey, this was jointly operated by Boddys, EYMS and United, one year United would operate, then EYMS then Boddys, however in practice EYMS and Boddys would share operations for two years according to traffic demands. Not forgetting the Hull garage for 3 coaches, many Brid coaches were needed on Sundays to work from Hull. On a none bus side Boddys operated 3 fleets of limousine for hire to funeral directors, there were Rolls Royce, Humbers and Austin Princesses, they kept us busy in winter, so you can see Boddys were quite a busy company. Boddys did not not have the office in Queen St that was a Appleby office and not the same one as White Bus,
Ken Wragg
16/03/11 – 06:38
Hello Ian. My records for Kemp, show GP 5147 coming from Mainline No24, as you said, date unknown, it later passed to Blue Line, Armthorpe and was rebodied by Barnaby DP26F in 1943, so it must have left Kemp by 1943. There is a photo of it in Prestige Series-Doncaster 1 with its Barnaby body, with Blue Line.
Mike Davies
16/03/11 – 06:44
Just to refer briefly to another fascinating feature of the bus scene in Bridlington – who remembers the UNITED bus station in The Promenade, from where their service 111 used to leave for Scarborough via Speeton and Hunmanby. A bus station it certainly was – for ONE bus !! It is still there and is on a corner roughly opposite Garlands the newsagents. The former United office is now a cafe, and customers in fair weather can dine “alfresco” on the very spot where many a fine Bristol G, K, J, L has rested during layover time.
Chris Youhill
16/03/11 – 10:49
Yes Chris I remember it well a one bus bus station, no room for a dupe!!.
Mike Davies
16/03/11 – 14:24
Regarding the United bus stn I certainly saw two buses on the stand many times not a lota room but only high summer. United also had a garage for two buses in the station yard now demolished to firstly extend the coach park and now were Tescos roadway is
Ken Wragg
Hi Mike Ken Chris. What an interesting set of new notes everyone, Mike I would be interested to compare your fleet notes for Kemp, re Blue Line I have the same book, is there a psvc publication for Blue line? Roger Holmes and I corresponded 1985-2003 about Barnabys and South Yorks firms who bought Barnaby products. Fascinating stuff this Ken Boddy’s Filey operations and excursions, far more than I realised. Kemps had cars for Funerals. Fred Barnaby rebuilt Limos into Hearses on the side carried out by a specialist who worked on Rolls and Austin V-Plas. They made a replica Jowett Jupiter body for 1952 Rally, chassis from Armstrong’s Beverley. I did a short piece on it for Jowett Club. Chris I remember the United ‘Bus Station’ somewhere I have a copy of a picture when People’s Bus of Scarborough used it, if I can find it I’ll put it on site.
Ian Gibbs
16/03/11 – 15:18
Gentlemen : please may a newcomer join in your fascinating discussions? Because this newcomer, having stumbled upon your website accidentally while looking for something else, has clear memories of most of your topics, having been born and bred in Bridlington (1938 – 1955)! And I can probably fill in a few gaps in your joint knowledge. Starting with the most recent topic, the United bus station in the Promenade, actually it could just hold 2 buses when necessary (I remember it doing so on a few Summer Saturdays, including the once-daily Summer service 20 to Newcastle which ran for several years in the late ’40s and ’50s). Service 111 actually had 3 variations : via Speeton and Hunmanby, and via Burton Fleming and Hunmanby, both running all year round, and via Reighton which ran in the Summer only. And did you know that United had a dormy shed for 1 bus, at the back of the Railway Station? (Not a lot of people know that!) Switching topics, ah, those ex-Doncaster double-deckers: 5 of them passed through Anfields’ yard; the 2 which went to Williamsons (DT 9643 and DT 5332? or 5337?), plus DT 7812 (Leyland, DT 9857 and 9859 (AEC) although a Doncaster Corp. fleet list I’ve seen gives the latter 2 as 9757/9. And that wonderful photograph of Anfields’ yard! That’s DT 9857 or 9859 on the left, then HL 5814 (a former Bullocks (156) Leyland Lion LT5 chassis re-bodied (make unknown), the old body (complete with Bullocks destination blind (why didn’t I have the foresight to “borrow” it) stood around in the yard for some months, suggesting that Anfields must have removed the body before sending the chassis for rebodying; then CWF 490 (one of 5 Bedford OWBs to be seen in Brid., the others being with White Bus (2), Boddys (1) and Everingham Bros.), then VN 5692 (a Commer B40 with canvas roof), and I’m not sure about the one on the right but I suspect it’s JV 6964 (Dennis Lancet2). I’ve got a similar photograph from around the same period (sadly of inferior quality, black&white taken on a box brownie) showing a TSM HSLA4(GLY446), a Leyland Cheetah LZ (DOR 57) and a Leyland Tiger TS2 with a weird Mulliner body. Re Boddys’ Filey Flamborough service, yes, I can confirm that this did exist, I remember my Mother reading out to me the notice in the Bridlington Free Press about it’s being started, I would guess that would have been around 1947. For how long it operated I don’t know; my impression was that it folded eventually. Re the ex-Yorks. Woollen centre-entrance Titans, yes, Williamsons operated the 5 you mention, and White Bus had 2 but only operated HD 4625, not HD 4631 which I imagine they used for spares, because it disappeared without trace. Incidentally, in addition to the Moorfield Road garage, which as you rightly say could only take single-deckers, and only 2 at a time at that, they had a bigger garage in the Old Town which housed about 6 buses including double-deckers. And I confirm that the Queen Street offices were not taken over by Boddys, but sold off and I think became a shop. I reckon that’ll do for now; but there’s plenty more I can tell you.
Patrick Hooper
17/03/11 – 06:31
I’m sure that everyone joins me in welcoming Patrick to the website and in particular to this utterly fascinating Bridlington topic, which is quite rapidly approaching the status of a book !! On my old snapshot of Anfield’s yard – Patrick mentions two possible numbers – the ex Doncaster six wheeler was AEC Renown DT 5337. Eagerly awaiting the next instalments from everyone – I wonder if arrangements could ultimately be made for some kind of a gathering of those of us interested in the erstwhile Bridlington district independent operators to discuss the history and to assemble an archive of photographs. Many years ago I did put an appeal in the “Free Press” for any pertinent photographs – there must surely be many in the Town’s attics somewhere – but sadly and perhaps understandably there were no replies. I was contacted , however, by an elderly former Williamson’s driver (one Harold Dowson) and spent the day with him – he managed to introduce me to a lady in Brett Street who was a relative of Tim Williamson but sadly she had no material to show us.
Chris Youhill
17/03/11 – 06:34
Hi All, Yes I do remember the United bus station, but I must admit that I had completely forgotten about it, until I read the post. Ken, did Boddy’s run a taxi business also, as I’m fairly certain that I remember my late grandma, telling me that every year when she arrived in Brid by train from Hull, she was picked up personally by Mr Boddy Sr., or did I imagine this? On page 44 of Ian’s book on EYMS there is a photo of EY PD1 number 452 on the Promenade in Brid, to the left of the PD1 is an United bus situated in the United bus station, showing route number 111. I’m sorry that I don’t have a copy of it.
Keith Easton
17/03/11 – 06:36
Firstly, thanks to all contributors for such a great response to my original photograph – your knowledge is absolutely amazing! Secondly, Ian, Mike, I can add the following information re Gilford GP 5147 – there is a Blue Line fleet list within Circle publication PB29 History of South Yorkshire PTE Part 2 1979-1986. This and 2PB13 Part 1, 1974-8, both published in 1993, contain full fleet lists of all independents acquired by the PTE in that period. Both Parts 1 and 2 are still available from the Circle. GP 5147 is given as new 7/31 to Main Lines Ltd, London WC1, no 24 with a Wycombe C26F body. Acquired by Blue Line by 1933, rebodied in 1943 with Barnaby d/p body (seating not given). Withdrawn by Blue Line 3/50, then given as scrapped. Looks like the Circle is unaware of it ever running for Kemp!
Bob Gell
17/03/11 – 06:43
Hello all. This site on Bridlington operators is getting bigger and better each day. I have a list of operators in Bridlington with some vehicle details from the 20’s & 30’s does anybody know any more about the following ? J Burrell, (Bridlington Garage Co). no address BT 380/BT 381/BT 1511. F Burrell WF 7184. J Broumpton, Beverley House, Pinfold St, BT 2816/BT 2878/BE 9189. S G Day, Brunswick Garage, Bridge St. C 2930/BT 1948/BT 2743/BT 2321/ BT 2807/BT 9952/AT 7417/BT 3304 WY 6253/NW 1759. E & T from Brunswick Garage D Day, Danescliffe, Thirsk Av. H Dixon, no address BT 5713/BT 5743/PY 756 C Hattersley t/a Blue Charas, 6 Somerset St. AT 2004/AT 8321/AT 7219 H H Knaggs, 30-32 Promenade. BT 382 H H Mudford, Central Garage, 7 Prospect St. BT 2323 H Ripley, 35 Promanade. BT 4227/BT 5880/AJ 4779. I know not all of the above numbers are PSV’s and some operators listed may be dealers or NPSV.
Mike Davies
17/03/11 – 10:08
Boddys did run taxi,s latterly this was one car a Ford which Mr Boddy snr ran himself but there was also a 2nd car hardley ever used but as Mr Boddy snr had reached the age where really he should not have been driving, he had a few scrapes, and on Mr Boddy jnrs orders the 2nd car was hidden from view, Mr Boddy snr then took too painting the West St garage until he fell off a ladder. Boddys had horse drawn Carriages/taxis and the stables were at West St, I think this is how the car hire business started, Mr Boddy snr held hackney Carriage/taxi badge no 1, at one stage in the 1970,s we hired a garage in Marshall Ave to house the cars from Mr Naggs another old horse drawn operator, we needed the space in West St to house coaches.
Ken Wragg
18/03/11 – 07:58
WF 7184! “I remember it well”; and I never thought I’d be writing about it 60 years later! When I knew it, it belonged to D.W.Frankish of Brandesburton, and freqently appeared in Brid., painted in colours (navy and primrose)which appeared to me to be identical to those of East Yorkshire, hence I wrongly concluded that it must have originated with one of the numerous fleets taken over by EYMS, and was unbelieving when, after I wrote to them asking about it, they responded that it had never belonged to them. It was a Bedford WLB, and I subsequently discovered that Frankish had acquired it in 7/47 from Clarke, North Frodingham (who perhaps had bought it from F.Burrell if Mike Davies’s info. is correct) and eventually sold it to either Wood or Thompson (no other details known). Now, then, to pick up a few minor points in the foregoing exchanges: John W.- in my living memory (which goes back to 1943) White Bus Service operated only to Lighthouse and North Landing, via Sewerby and Flamborough (with short-workings to both the latter), and hence those are the only places where you could have ridden on the ex-YWD HD 4625 (unless it was used for an excursion, which seems unlikely). But finding WBS Commer MJ55 open and unattended in the Station yard one day, my brother and I daringly ventured inside and turned its destination blind, to find “Scarboro’” included on it; enquiries of my mother elicited the opinion that WBS had indeed operated to Scarborough at one time. Does anyone know any more about that? Ian – there’s no such road as Thorn Road in Brid., the coach park behind the one owned by Boddys belonged to the Thorn Hotel. By the way, there was a third coach park in that vicinity, on the opposite side of the Promenade, owned by Mr.Carvill, and used largely to accommodate Wallace Arnold and Skills’ coaches. The reference to YX being “a West Riding registration” has me perplexed – surely YX was always a London registration!? WX and YG, amongst others, for the West Riding. Ian again – the Grey-de-Luxe Leyland Lion was KH 4071, sold in 12/40 to Boddys, broken up by 02/44 so I never saw it. Mike again – you mention an operator H.H.Knaggs; probably co-incidence but possibly not, WBS had a driver Mr.Knaggs (he always drove HS 8306). Re the Doncaster area independents – there are two marvellous books in the Prestige Series about them, with many superb photographs. Now, a question: EYMS destination blinds always had, in addition to “Bridlington-Lighthouse” and “Bridlington-North Landing” (“via Flamborough, Sewerby” in each case – a rare instance of the intermediate places being in the reverse order) a third provision “Bridlington-Thornwick Bay via Flamborough, Sewerby”. No service to Thornwick Bay ever operated in my lifetime, and indeed the side road to Thornwick Bay was hardly up to bus operation and there was nowhere to turn a bus round when you got there. Did such a service ever operate before the war? Or was one planned but never materialised? “That’s all for now, folks” as the cartoon films used to say; oh, except for one thing – Mike: do you, or did you used to, live in Hessle? If so, I believe we met to exchange EYMS photographs etc. about 25 years ago.
Patrick Hooper
18/03/11 – 15:47
A further comment for Chris: near the top of this site you mentioned that you thought that Boddys had no double-deckers; in my living memory they had 3 at various times – YS 2093, an ex-Glasgow Albion (Around 1945-47 at a guess), HL 4852,an ex-West Riding Leyland TD1 (same period), and HG 2707, ex-Burnley, Colne & Nelson (c1952-54) – both YS and HL were painted in Boddys’ livery, and I remember seeing HL in actual use, but HG remained in BC&N livery. (Information I obtained second-hand is that Boddys also acquired 4 ex-Hull Corporation Daimler CP6s in 1945 and broke them up for spares, which is strange because I’ve no trace of Boddys having ever had any other Daimlers, anyway I never saw them.) Re Boddys’ premises: you’re all more or less right, they had 3 covered depots, the little one in Hilderthorpe Road (more of a yard really, but with offices), the big one on the corner of Richmond Street and New Burlington Road, and a third in Horsforth Avenue (Anfields had the premises next door, by the way); also the coach park with kiosk on the Promenade (opposite York Road) and the booking office at the West Street/South Cliff Road corner. Chris ~ super idea for a gathering of all interested parties; do we all live in different areas, I wonder? (I’m in Middlesex.) Do they still hold the Hull – Brid. vintage bus rally? If so, how about us trying to meet up for that?
Patrick Hooper
18/03/11 – 15:57
Hi All, Ken very interesting about Boddy and horse drawn carridges – he had 2 Austin Taxis I think. Patrick I have a correspondance file on things Bus 1970s onwards I’m sure I had a letter from a Mr Hooper was it yourself? Thanks for correcting Thorn Hotel not T Road. WF 7184- Thurgood C14F – right on all points however was the Clarke of N Frodingham a publican-Harold Hopper of Beeford had a photo of WF 7184 which he indicated he had owned then sold to Frankish, it had come from Thurgoods to him new, so it looks like Hopper-Clarke-Frankish-Burrell (or Burnell), YX Registrations-London CC 1928 Grey De Luxe thanks for this note. EYMS Blinds-I tend to agree no “service down to Thornwick Bay” however Archer Robinson ran small buses (probably the GMC Ks) off the road by the Thornwick Bay Hotel/pub to a refreshment building. Mike the info posted 17th is some of this from the Cards Mike Walker used to fill in for PSVC Mike and I updated cards as info came in. The Burrell brothers were Jobmasters off Promenade when Motors arrived they joined in – another vehicle they owned was a Durham-Churchill from Birmingham. J W Broumpton lived up St Johns St, the family name was spelt Brumpton and Brompton also! BT 2816 – ex Military Thornycroft. Stan Day and partner? Doris Day not the Brid ‘Stage Coach’ she had a 14 seat Fiat chara S/H from Harrrogate Road Car Co same source for WY 6254. BT 1948-Is this a taxi more detail welcome please. H Dixon-one of 3 Dixons Arthur Chas and Walter (problem here) there maybe a Flamboro’ Dixon family some did Haulage. Charles Dixon owned a Chara he may have driven for Mudford-A chara smash in Flamboro’ village late 1920s involved A D Dixon (driver for Chas) with a JB McMaster,(Hessle) Chara they collided with Dixon’s rear end, not known which Dixons branch. though Arthur Dixon had driven Horse Charas since age of 8 years!!! alledgedly. The BTs are correct is the PY 756 PY 754? Charlie Hattersley not Brid but Hull Arthur Knaggs owned BT 382 it came from another Brid owner ended up in Nottingham I believe. Horace Howe Mudford I know of only this vehicle, he came from Sheffield. Ripley was Agent/Dealer, Two of these Vehicles given were Williamson at one time- AJ is ex Robinson Scarboro to Ripley.
Ian Gibbs
19/03/11 – 07:55
Re Boddy double deckers: I also have EN 4741 a TD1/Brush H24/24D from Bury Corporation, May 1948, but listed as scrapped in December, 1948, perhaps the body was in a caravan park somewhere? The Daimler CP6’s are listed in PB22 (Hull Corporation Fleet History) page 20, passing to Boddy in November, 1945, presumably without seats (they were used for reseating trolleybuses) again to a caravan park?
Keith Easton
19/03/11 – 13:17
Thanks Ian for the info on the Brid “operators” I knew you would be able to help, in answer to an earlier question about Kemps have some info on the following vehicles YG 83, GP 5147, VN 2817, VN 7273, EK 2068, WX 3567, WF 7023, WF 9299, YG 5084, BWF 198, BWX 663, AWY 218, DG 7409, EBT 172, AVY 187, GWY 428 & DUA 15. J Kemp, DG 7409, ANU 740. G Kemp, BRN 654. Most of this info will have come from the PSVC, therefore you should have the same. Please send us the pic of the Peoples BS in the United bus station if you get the time. Hello Patrick yes it was me, I thought I remembered the name from the distant passed, how are you OK I hope.
Mike Davies
19/03/11 – 13:19
Hi Ian, Keith Patrick and Chris. I cannot remember any of these buses at Skipsea, or at least not close to us within half a mile each way. This may help in elimination if you are trying to place them, Hull CPs etc. I do remember riding on Boddys Filey-Flamborough service, as I said ages ago. My memory was of a centre entrance bus, and it is re-crystallising (there’s a word!) in my memory so that it COULD have been in BCN livery, about 1947/8 time. Just a thought!
John Whitaker
20/03/11 – 08:20
Hi All, Following the recent comments on the small United bus Station in Bridlington, Here is the picture which shows a United bus (type Bristol ??), in the bus station. The photo is taken around 1960 or so and is extremely nostalgic, not just the buses, but the atmosphere; Pearsons novelty shop, a great delight for a 13 year-old. Hello Mike, following a recent post, are you the same Mike, that I purchased a large quantity of EYMS photos around 1979-80? I was living in Blenheim Street, off Prince’s Avenue, at that time.
Keith Easton
20/03/11 – 10:44
Oh Keith, what I would give to experience Bridlington again in those wonderful days. The evening of their fame was unfortunately looming for the “old order” of vehicles like the beautiful Leyland PD1, and yet the newer types like the United bus still had individuality and character. The Scarborough bound single decker is almost certainly one of the Bristol MW5Gs with ECW bodywork to the usual attractive and immaculate standard of the Lowestoft concern. These semi-integral vehicles, and their LS forbears with separate chassis, had a delightful but harmless little idiosyncrasy – it was occasionally necessary to open the cab gate slightly in order to move the gear lever far enough to the left to engage reverse gear – and I think its fair to say that the comment sums up the total of any adverse remarks that could be made about these tough and appealing and efficient machines. I admit to being biased with admiration, but I can think of absolutely nothing adverse to say about Leyland PD1s – the EYMS Beverley Bar masterpieces in particular. I believe that Pearsons novelty shop is still alive and well too !!
In answer to Patrick’s suggestion about the Hull to Bridlington rally, yes the East Coast Annual Run is on Sunday 12th June this year. The possibility of a meeting at Bridlington of the Devotees of the golden independents is definitely worth some discussion I feel.
Chris Youhill
20/03/11 – 10:48
I just had to comment on Keith`s wonderful photograph showing the Bridlington UNITED bus station! My overriding memory of the EYMS bus station is of an extremely cramped and tightly packed through “street type” bus station, and one where , once loaded, buses had to nudge through nervously to exit. I remember having to walk from the covered area to wherever the (Hornsea) EYMS bus might be parked, and this involved walking in close contact, and in front of parked vehicles, some with engines ticking over. I do not know when United opened their Brid bus station, but I have loads of memories of J and L type single deckers in this station , just over the road, and mostly showing “Scarborough”. In this (later) case, the bus appears to be an MW type saloon. I wonder if the united/EYMS Scarborough service was in any way coordinated, or did they follow different routes? EYMS buses used to show intermediate points of Filey, Cayton Bay, and Butlins Camp. I don’t know why, but all this Bridlington nostalgia seems to be of a particularly powerful variety, and thanks, Keith for a super photograph!
John Whitaker
20/03/11 – 15:45
Hello all, I have a poor photo of Boddys YS 2093 Albion/Cowieson with Filey-Butlins camp on the blinds, which may be of interest (if any body has a better copy of this pic, could they post it) and a pic of FV 971 a still from the film “Holiday Camp” filmed at Butlins Filey.
(Could have a copyright problem with film clip)
Yes Keith, I think that would have been me, I recognized a lot a the photos you sent to the EYMS web site, as supplied by me-I was hoping EY would put some of there own old pics on the web site!
Mike Davies
20/03/11 – 19:20
Hi All re film “Holiday Camp” was it a documentary or a comedy about the Huggits on Holiday the popular Radio family. I’m sure I have seen this years ago, lots of buses queue to drop patrons off at the ‘weeks’ end another queue of buses taking passengers back home definitely remember Albion Radiators (possibly Bullocks) some EY saloons too that Boddys pic is superb also never regret the poor quality pics they’re still a welcome sight till a better one turns up. It would be useful to find out if Holiday camp has been put onto DVD and which film company made it. I heard last week that the preserved Lion from Boynton Hall (Brid) has a new owner in the Keighley area the engine turned over within minutes of some TLC! false number WF 811. Mike re Kemp my info is not as complete as your notes indicate some of mine is from Giles bros fleet. Mr Walker and I lost touch when I moved across counties. The ‘Brid Meet’ in June sounds a good idea to me too, sorry I have not found the United pull-in photo yet still looking.
Ian Gibbs
21/03/11 – 07:59
I remember now been told that boddys ran double deck buses to and from various airfields been built in the 2nd world war and they were kept on airfields away from brid. Maybe this is how the first holiday homes arrived. I cannot remember the no of the Sheffield decker we got for its engine. maybe RWB or RWE I had the front no plate for many years but it is not impressed on my brain.
Ken Wragg
21/03/11 – 08:05
Mike, yes some of the black & white photos on the EY website probably did come from you, please accept this as an acknowledgement! Re EYMS photos, I was lucky enough to see these in the mid 1970’s at Anlaby Road, but I did not have any means of copying them at the time; also I acquired a photocopy of the entire EYMS historical fleet list, and it was from this that the fleet details on the website was compiled, in addition to the one on this website. When I contacted Darren Stockdale at the EY website, he confirmed that the company had neither photographs or fleet list, perhaps they remained with the NBC residuary, somewhere?. With regard to the Lion “WF 811” I’m sure that I read that it had been running on it’s KW registration some time ago, I do have a photo of it at an East Coast Run from several years ago. I shall probably be attending this year’s ECR, but I don’t get too far these days, due to other responsibilities.
Keith Easton
21/03/11 – 12:54
Hello all— Keith, no problem with the photos on the EY web site, I would have sent them if you had not, many years ago, myself and a EY driver went to as many ex/old/deceased! EY staff that we could find, to try and get as many bus photos as possible, we did very well, and passed a lot of them on to EYMS and in return I copied many of EY’s collection (which I would love to go through again). The Holiday Camp DVD is still available and going for about £14 on Amazon not sure it is worth that, as it only gets interesting at the end when they are all going home on EYMS/United/Boddys vehicles.
Mike Davies
22/03/11 – 06:10
Well chaps I guess 12 June at brid is a good place for any interested in meeting and as I will be there with my stall and lots of East Yorkshire area photos for sale why not make my stall a meet point its is the one with the motorhome behind it. Advert now over
Ken Wragg
22/03/11 – 14:52
What a first class idea Ken – your stall sounds like a very convenient and easy place to meet and I, for one, am greatly looking forward to having a good chat with all the folks involved in this topic ……..ermmm book !! When I posted my little Anfields snapshot and the one of the WBS Gilford I never expected such a vast amount of expert archive material to surface – quite incredible, and very rewarding indeed.
Chris Youhill
29/03/11 – 07:43
Just having a cursory look at this excellent site, I was interested to see Anfields Coaches mentioned. I was with West Yorkshire Road Car in the 1950s when Anfields had a ‘base’ in Malton in the charge of a Mr Lamb, and I got involved with them in certain ways, – at least one coach was based there – a Dennis I think, VD 6432. I believe they ran trips for the local York Football Supporters Club for a time out of Malton.
David Allen
29/03/11 – 13:22
David, that is a most interesting fact about Anfield’s connection with Malton. Mr. Lamb of Malton was, I believe, himself a coach proprietor and had a hiring arrangement with Wallace Arnold. Mr. Lamb bought (or hired from dealer Hughes) Sentinel UUB 931, formerly WA, in 1963 and used it for three years.
Chris Youhill
30/03/11 – 06:01
I can confirm that Wilf Lamb did work for Anfields at Malton then set up his own business and on the boot lids of the Anfield Bedford SB3,s it said Bridlington and Malton. Wilf ran a centre entrance AEC ex Wallace Arnold for many years and if my memory is correct he had the Commer TS3 when Anfields closed down. Later Wilf also had a very nice Harrington AEC ex Flights.
Ken Wragg
31/03/11 – 09:21
Here is a photo of the Archer Robinson/East Yorkshire premises which I took while in Bridlington a week last Tuesday. I’m sure that the present day customers of the Sandown Cafe can have absolutely no inkling of the automobile gems which have graced those hallowed walls in times gone by. Personally I would prefer the glorious whiff (and no cholesterol) of a reluctant misfiring PLSC Lion to the “chef’s special” of the present times any day.
Chris Youhill
01/04/11 – 07:23
Nice photo Chris, I think that you’re almost certainly correct about the cafe clientele, but to me it is immediately obvious, especial when compared with the photo in EY days in Ian’s book on EYMS. The trouble is that I’ve seen it so much that I never got around to photographing it (or the ex Boddy’s garages either – must get around to it one day!)
Keith Easton
01/04/11 – 20:20
I know just the feeling Keith, and the same day that I took this picture I drove past the Boddy’s garage in Horsforth Avenue – its only thanks to this invaluable and enjoyable saga that I became aware of such premises. Next time in the resort, which could possibly be next Tuesday very briefly, I shall take a picture of that rather respectable looking building.
Chris Youhill
01/04/11 – 20:24
While we are on Bridlington depots, can anybody tell me which depot this is?.
I was taken to it some years ago, it was then used as a builders yard, so I took this one photo and left, it was used by EYMS (the upside down sign looks to be EY) and came from a Bridlington op, but I cant remember where it was (its an age thing!!) or who it came from. any ideas
Mike Davies
03/04/11 – 09:00
This is in Havelock Place or Cresent not sure which it was used by Corrigans scrap metal merchants then frontage and house knocked down and then another srap man Brunton used it, now a carpet wharehouse. not sure who used it before EYMS, im sure someone will know!
Ken Wragg
04/04/11 – 07:00
Ken, with respect are you sure this is Havelock Crescent as it seems a far more spacious premises than that narrow residential street would accommodate ??
Here is a picture I took a few years ago outside what was Williamson’s depot in Havelock Crescent – the elderly gentleman is one Harold Dowson who had been a driver with the Firm after WW2. This view is similar to the two which Mike Davies submitted recently.
Chris Youhill
04/04/11 – 11:17
The premises in your photo is further up and across the road from the Mike Davies older photo and is really in the next street. I have had this confirmed to me by an ex Corrigan employee who tells me the upside down sign was at one time over the opening to the right of where it is in photo
Ken Wragg
04/04/11 – 17:35
Hello Gents I’ve just caught up with the ‘brid busy bees’ comments, Havelock Cres is the scene with Mr Dowson about one third down the street from the Quay Road entry turn right down to the picture area. This was – I may have noted the GPO vehicle service depot rented from Williamsons. I believe it went through into Quay Road for the Wagonettes to exit into Quay Road remember no Queensgate as houses were demolished to create a road for it.
Here is a picture of Cliff Street showing the length of Bus Queues in the summer season. The tall chap talking to the motorcyclists is Mr Amos Frankish a Driver note his drivers cap. The Bus is a second hand Maudslay the queue is at least 48 persons the Booking Advert states Flamborough Scarborough Hornsea there are six more trips-routes listed on other windows. Chris Y re the query of depth please remember that the Garage depth is equal to the depth of a house as it was built between adjacent houses! to exit onto Quay Rd, I’m puzzled by the B&W photo is this Stepney Grove off Scarborough Rd, there was also a small premises in the left Corner of Havelock Cres possibly backing onto Havelock Place this was a garage-workshop of Mr Dukes he also had Buckrose Garage, Corrigans rings a note in relation to Havelock as they skipped loads of 78s which I missed getting (excuse tears I’m filling up with memories)
Here is a ‘Map’ showing the street area,didn’t WBS have a small unit in Cambridge St down from Havelock St end between houses before Swindon Street end of Cambridge St?
Ian Gibbs
05/04/11 – 05:50
Hi All, just athought to throw into the melting pot! Didn’t EYMS purchase a propery in Havelock Crescent around 1929, prior to the “new” depot in St John’s Street which was opened in 1937? There wasn’t a great deal of services operated by EYMS in Brid’ prior to the purchase of Archer Robinson and Blue Bus companies in 1930. As Mike says, the Bookong Office sign does seem to be in the EYMS 30’s style, and I beleive that Williamson’s property never went into EYMS ownership at all, (neither did his buses for that matter)!
Keith Easton
Thanks to Ken and Ian for this further information on this really intriguing topic. I visited the location yesterday and took three pictures.
The first two are, I’m sure, of the strange premises in Havelock Crescent – the ones in Mike Davies’ picture – so these buildings are still in existence and largely unaltered. A good view (over a wall) can be had from Queensgate and this suggests indeed that it goes back almost to Queensgate Square. The other view is taken looking into the corner of Havelock Crescent, and shows that this little building (which was securely locked) is now in the ownership of the Bosch car electrics agency who have Williamson’s premises shown in my picture. Incidentally I now appreciate for the very first time that the latter building is far larger and deeper than I’d previously realised, and was obviously capable of holding most if not all of Williamson’s fleet at any one time. I had a barmy moment in which I was sure that I could hear HD 4803 (ex Yorkshire Woollen Titan TD/Roe H24/24C) pursuing me up Havelock Crescent with asthmatic petrol engine – after I made a public fool of myself leaping out of the way onto the pavement I realised that it was only wishful thinking from a very very happy time long ago.
The third picture is of the Boddy’s depot in Horsforth Avenue which in now, I’m told by a local, Council owned and houses amongst other things the pseudo “trains” which run along the Sea Front.
Chris Youhill
10/04/11 – 05:00
Wilf and Harold Lamb commenced coach operations in September 1959 with Commer Commando BJR325. The AEC Reliance was 8314U which they ran from12/68 to October 1973.
David Hick
Hallo again. 3 comments on your recent items: (1) There was definitely no access from Williamsons’ garage (in Havelock Crescent) direct to Quay Road in my time, nor ever so far as I know – my father’s shop was at 250/252 Quay Road, located roughly where the non-existent exit is marked! (2) Nor am I aware of any “WBS unit” in Cambridge Street, which I cycled along on my way to Moorfields School. (3) The one-time EYMS premises in this vicinity were at the corner of Havelock Place and Havelock Street, with a rear access from Havelock Crescent. The building was a timber-merchants throughout my childhood, and I’m ashamed to say that I knew nothing of its bus history until long after I’d left Brid. Did you know that Williamsons had a small garage in Nelson Street? So now then, how many people are up for this suggested meeting-up on 12th June? It’s a 500-mile round trip for me, and probably a 2-night stopover, which I’m happy to undertake if worthwhile (wife may not be so happy but there you go) – what say you all?
Patrick Hooper
19/04/11 – 19:14
Hello all, Patrick thankyou for clearing up the direct entry bit into Quay Road this seems logical as I should have realised, Also the ‘imagined’ WBS premises in Cambridge St. I’m wondering if the Nelson Street place was made into a car parking area. Pre 1920 Williamsons Horse-buses would simply exit at either end of Havelock Cres as would the large Daimler deckers later on. Im happy to meet up 12th June as wife and I will stay over for a day or two on Pembroke Terrace near Spa then I can take some photos of Bus Premises on a ‘scenic’ drive of old Brid.
Ian Gibbs
19/04/11 – 19:20
Hello all. The number of bus depots around Havelock Crescent seems to be increasing every week!! My notes show that EYMS purchased a garage in Havelock Crescent in May 1930 this was previously known as Dukes Garage, the depot was closed November 1937 and has been leased to many private business since July 1939.( this fits in with the notes above from others) so is this the garage in the corner as pictured above? This depot was still owned by EYMS when it passed to NBC and became NBC owned. My notes also show that land in St John Street was purchased in 1936 and J Quibell and Sons Ltd, commenced building in May 1937, it was completed and brought into use 8th November 1937, it was extended in November 1952, and three cottages in front of the depot were purchased in 1956 and 1962 and an enlarged forecourt was developed in October 1962. I went to Brid last week and took the same photos of the same depot as Chris did, but I’m still not sure if its where I took the old black & white pic!!
Mike Davies
10/05/11 – 07:34
When I was 8 we used to play in an empty garage yard which I think was in Havalock Cres. There was an old coach in a big shed and we used to jack it up as high as poss with a huge trolley jack then take it in turns to drop it as quick as we could while others were sat in it! Health and safety?
John
21/10/11 – 06:50
The ex-Sheffield PD2/12 that was stripped of its engine and various other bits and pieces in the summer of 1967 by Boddy’s at Bridlington was the former Sheffield 673 (RWB 73). The engine was transplanted into Boddy’s ex-West Riding Tiger, EHL 336, which survives in preservation, no doubt with the power plant from the erstwhile Sheffield machine still in place!
Dave Careless
22/10/11 – 06:25
Thanks Dave for that info I had forgotten the reg no of the Sheffield decker
Ken Wragg
29/10/11 – 16:40
I worked as a 15yr old in the West Street office of BODDY”S MOTORS. Flambro Lighthouse & North Landing 2/6d. Filey 3/-. Hornsea Potteries 3/9d. All the Scarbro shows of an evening & a Mystery drive 5 nights a week as well. My dad ran the office and coach park on promenade as well.
Happy Days.
Tony Boughton
30/10/11 – 06:22
Didn’t the West Street office become Aladdin’s Cave in the sixties?
Keith Easton
07/11/11 – 17:52
I am 80 and remember most of the bus Companys, Whites did have a Double Decker serving Flamborugh, Williamsons main terminal was Chapel street along side a Police Blue Box as in Dr Who etc etc
Bryan Carey
04/12/11 – 15:35
I remember the old Boddys coaches VBT191/192 and YXD12 from my childhood and probably travelled on them my father Bernard was a part time driver for them, he was a fire officer, the name at the top of this file Ken Wragg is familiar to me,I remember John Boddy and his son, also their operations Manager Bruce Gabbitas, I may have spelt his surname wrong! sadly my Father died a few years ago but it was nice to find these photos on the web, does anybody have any photos of Billy Richardsons garage in Quay Road or any of the old Priory Caravan factory behind Coggins Bakery in the Baylgate, I would be grateful if any were around.
Robin O’Connor
05/12/11 – 06:31
Hello again the garage in Havelock Crescent became R Belt & Sons a car repair shop and used car site, I used to go to school with one of the boys Boyd, he would be around 57 now, from memory it continued as a garage until the eighties, I left the town in 1984 and lost touch with developments, although I still visit the town to see family, from the photos it does not appear to have changed since those days, I do not remember the Sandown Cafe being a bus station, I remember it as the Sun Wah Chinese restaurant, it was later taken over by a couple I knew David & Davina Stevenson
Robin O’Connor
06/12/11 – 07:00
Hello all sorry to be taking over your site but as an ex Bridlington born person I can remember a lot of stuff being discussed and hope my comments clarify some points.in no particular order, John Boddys last taxi was a dark blue MK3 Ford Zephyr 4 he still had some taxi jobs despite his age, my Father did some jobs in this car for the company, I rode in it a few times. Despite his age John would not stop working, we arrived at the West street garage one evening to find John painting the garage doors, apparently the previous day he had to be stopped from climbing 20 feet or so up a ladder. There was mention that Dukes had the garage in Havelock Cres, it may be correct but I do not recall it, there was a Dukes garage at the other end of the Cres in Havelock Street, they were not the same Dukes that had Buckrose Motors. Corrigans scrap yard was on the left in Havelock place, it did have an entrance in Havelock Cres. I remembered Anfields coaches and taxis, their premises were where Higgs and Barkers Vauxhall Dealership is now, when Fred Barker first took it over I am sure they used the old Anfields workshop. My Mother who is 80 and still lives in Bridlington remembers Mrs Anfield, she said she used to sit outside the taxi office (which they retained after selling the coach side to Boddys)chain smoking whilst holding a Pekingese dog, apparently she used to breed them. She also remembers Whites coaches, her comment was they ran the buses to Flamborough and that they were parked by the toilets in Queen St. I am not a huge coach and bus fan but a friend of mine is, he used to work for Alexanders the Coachbuilders in Edinburgh. I hope this information is useful to somebody.
Robin O’Connor
07/12/11 – 06:59
Thanks Robin for the info some confirms what I said about Corrigans scrap yard location. I do remember your dad Bernard very well always fun to be with and he enjoyed coaching in those good days. Yes Keith Boddys office on West st was later Alladins cave and also Kirbys toy shop when he relocated from Chapel st keep the recollections coming every one please
Ken Wragg
07/12/11 – 17:15
Thanks for those kind words Ken, my Mother has told me she has a photo of VBT 191 OR 192 outside the Park Lane Hotel in London that I will put on the site when it is found, I suspect my Father took it when he took some rugby fans to a cup final, did you go on one of those trips with him? Which coach hit the wall by the pond in Burton Agnes? I know who was driving it but I will not put it in print to save him any embarrassment but his initials were JG.
Robin O’Connor
08/12/11 – 06:47
I did all sorts of coach work in my time but as I had no interest in rugby or footy I was lucky to have other trips to do and spalding flower parade was on the same w/end as the rugby final so I usually went there. The coach that collided with the wall at burton agnes was FDB 571 which I took to Norths scrapyard following an engine change with RWF 785 in OCT 79
Ken Wragg
27/01/12 – 10:35
Just been reading the interesting comments posted here by a Mr Ian Gibbs and note that one of the statements relates to TOOTH & WADDINGTON, ie
It was never a rink when I knew it but it had been the premises of a 1920s Bus Firm Called Tooth & Waddington (They had 3 different owners but no space here for all that saga.)
I’m currently researching my grandad Thomas William Trown’s history of living in Bridlington and believe he may have worked for (Trown) Tooth, Waddington, any one with any more information please.
Garry Trown
29/05/12 – 17:26
Does anyone recall a bus driver by the name of William Isacc Morris Walker, who resided in Pinfold St., Bridlington. He was born in N. Ireland in 1914 and died in Bridlington in January 1998.
S. Arthur
30/05/12 – 07:15
Morris Walker lived on Pinfold St Brid as you say and was working on EYMS buses in 1966 when I started on the buses he was always smartly dressed as all EYMS staff were expected to be he was on the one man bus rota and also did Yorkshire services in summer
Ken Wragg
30/05/12 – 13:26
Well chaps its almost time for our local Bridlington rally again its on Sunday 10 June and starts in East Park in Hull and ends up at Sewerby fields on the cliff top in Bridlington hope you can make it.
Ken Wragg
24/08/12 – 15:39
Such an entertaining site especially due to the fact that much of this info refers to my Anfield relatives, my father being Jack Anfield died 1956 when I was 14. I am now living in the South and I would be delighted if anyone on this website has any memories and a photograph of my beloved late father. I am pleased to make contact through this site as it brings back memories to me of my childhood.
Pam Ellis (nee Anfield)
28/09/12 – 14:23
Having acquired an old destination bus blind I thought I would do a little research to see if I could date the blind more accurately than 1950/60 and Google pointed me to your superb website. I have to say that I never expected passing a couple of hours contemplating the history of buses and their destination history. Captivating. My blind does seem to relate to a comment/question from Patrick Hooper: “No service to Thornwick Bay ever operated in my lifetime, and indeed the side road to Thornwick Bay was hardly up to bus operation and there was nowhere to turn a bus round when you got there. Did such a service ever operate before the war? Or was one planned but never materialised? “ My blind has the header “HULL WITHERNSEA EXPRESS” and contains all of Patrick’s mentioned destination plus many more; all of them are of a personal interest as childhood memories,: BEEFORD, ULROME, SKIPSEA, HORNSEA ot mention a few. The Header also contains the following information: Buses 508. 519. Manufacturers Whitlay Tool Co. Bin 3965 HOLLYM. Town Center-Waxholme Rd. Whitlay as a company were dissolved in 1968. Another pointer to dating might be the Destination HULL HEDON Via Marfleet Saltend Aerodrome Entrance, as I understand the Aerodrome became a speedway circuit in the late forties early 50s but only lasted a year or so however the destination, Aerodrome Entrance could have carried on for years. I could put up photos of the blind if required. Just wondered if an answer to Patrick’s query helped with my dating. Either way it’s all become an interesting and nostalgic journey, including your site.
Steve Gregory
29/09/12 – 07:24
The Thornwick Bay Service was originated by Archer Robinson in the early 1920’s as a branch off his Bridlington-Flamborough service. He owned the cafe at Thornwick Bay. His business passed to East Yorkshire Motor Services in September 1929-presumably they continued the service as long as it remained profitable. Hedon Speedway was operating from March 1948 to August 1949. I don’t think that there would have been any reason to have the Aerodrome Entrance on a destination blind after 1949.
David Hick
29/09/12 – 12:32
Hello David – you may be surprised to hear that, even in 1955/6 when I was in the RAF at Patrington, the intermediate destination blinds in the 1946 onwards Leyland PD1 double deckers (gorgeous legendary vehicles) on the Hull – Withernsea service displayed: AERODROME HEDON PATRINGTON Such happy days – oh, and the ECW rebodied Leyland TDs which provided Saturday night duplicates from Hull depot, with identical displays………..
Chris Youhill
02/10/12 – 15:25
The EYMS timetable for Summer 1948 lists Thornwick Bay in its alphabetical list of places served and the map actually shows Thornwick Bay as one of three legs after Flamborough (Lighthouse, North Landing and Thornwick Bay). The service was no. 28 (which, of course, was not displayed on the blinds)and the timetable quotes Ye Olde Thornwick Hotel some two minutes after leaving Flamborough and three minutes before arriving at North Landing. Buses to the Lighthouse did not call there. The frequency was roughly hourly, the last journey from Bridlington being at 10 30 p.m.. The Winter 1950/1 timetable has the same service but the map omits Thornwick Bay. Sometime in the 1950s references to Thornwick Bay disappeared. The 1940 timetable also contains references to Thornwick bay but the service was very restricted owing to wartime conditions. Does this add to the confusion? A Bridlington book would be a great asset. My family holidayed at Sewerby and Barmston in the 1950s and I have many memories of EYMS and the White Bus Company.
Malcolm J Wells
24/06/13 – 12:06
I am Gt Gt Granddaughter of John Williamson who founded the Bridlington Bus company. He and his family were all involved in different aspects of the business. Horse dealing and beach donkeys was the work of my Gt Grandfather Thomas, but his older brother Robert and youngest brother Reuben worked on the buses as bus/carriage drivers. Another brother Reed had a livery stable on Market Place and was a horse breaker. John Knaggs worked for Reuben Williamson and Reuben was summoned under the Elementary Schools Act for employing John Knaggs before the end of term. My father said the horses used to launch the life-boat. Not only were John’s sons involved in the business but also grandsons too. My Grandfather in 1909 is identified on his marriage certificate as a carriage driver. He married into the Pant family. John Wm Pant was a cartman in the town as was his uncle and grandfather. The Bridlington Free Press describes John as a popular man who started working life as a mariner plying the Baltic. He was involved in the Crimean War and the Battle of Sebastopol where he was taken a prisoner. Whilst in Russia he learnt to speak some Russian despite the fact that the conditions were desperate. On returning home he set up as a shoe-dealer. Around 1881 he set up his son Robert as a bus proprietor.
Cathy Goldthorpe
03/12/13 – 06:18
Read with interest the comments on old coaches my father John drove for EYMS for 39yrs and drove the first London Birmingham service from Brid two new Leyland Tigers or Leopards in yellow PAT 1 and PAT 2 registration I can still remember at 70 my dad getting ready to go with his small brown overnight case and saying I hope I have PAT 1 because it was 6 miles an hour faster than PAT 2 on the A1 I wonder what happened to them.
Keith Symonds
04/12/13 – 07:14
EYMS had 15 Willowbrook bodied Leyland Tiger Cubs registered PAT408-421
David Hick
14/12/13 – 07:38
Reading all the interesting comments about all the old bus companies got me thinking was there a Chadwicks in Bridlington
Keith Symonds
02/11/14 – 07:17
To clear things up about Trown, Tooth & Waddington in Bridlington, the partnership first operated buses on two services in the town in January 1922 Belvedere to the Market Place and a Circular service from the Promenade. The trading name was variously ‘Bridlington & District Motor Services’ and ‘The Red Bus Service’ further services were added to Flamborough (5/22), Driffield (6/22) & Bempton (3/23) the depot was located at Alexandra Garage on the Promenade which was also the home of the business of motor engineers which they ran. In December 1923 Tooth & Waddington (Motor Services) Ltd was formed to take over bus operations of the partnership. The fleet at the end of 1922 was 7 AECs (2x42st dd, 1x46st dd & 4 30 seat saloons), no registrations except a dd BT 5288. In January 1925 the operations of the company and its vehicles were acquired by Archor Robinson. Two toastracks were owned by Robinson by 5/25 so these were presumably the two Leylands BT 7268/9 that were new to T&W in May 1924.
Mike Pearson
01/12/14 – 09:55
In the early 50s my brother and I played in Anfields yard Bridlington, we jacked up the coaches and let them down with a bang whilst friends sat inside. Great fun!
David Carass
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
14/07/15 – 06:19
Even though this is not my subject, this site is so interesting. I was born in Bridlington in 1948 and all I can add to this site is a child’s memory of Anfield’s garage. I spent many a happy hour in the early 50’s secretly playing in these buses, covered in oil and grease much to the dismay of my mother. It is quite correct that the business was located on a corner of Quay Road; I recall there was a gas company showroom on the opposite corner just before the level crossings. The picture of the front of the business onto Quay Road was adjoined by three or four terrace houses of greater antiquity than any in the neighbourhood, abandoned with all their contents still inside. I gathered that they were evacuated and never refurbished after they were damaged in an air raid on the nearby gas works in WW2. The road between did indeed lead to the back entrance to Moorfield’s School. The picture of the yard at the back of the office does not show many buses but, in my time, probably a couple of years later it was full of old buses right up to the yard entrance in Moorfield Road and were already old even by the standards of my time. I also recall an old London style taxi cab parked there that still had a working bulb horn that must place it in the 1920’s or earlier. I look forward to reading any new additions to this site.
Potteries Motor Traction 1961 AEC Reliance Alexander B45F
The Reliance in the snow above was being driven by myself on route 64 Newcastle under Lyme to Market Drayton on the A53 road just south of Loggerheads, traffic in front was getting stuck on a hill ahead of us called Hennel Brooke. The AEC’s were delivered in 1961 there was 25 of them all 45 seaterswith Alexander bodywork built to BET federation specification, they were all withdrawn in 1976. They were the first OMO buses to operate with PMT, and yes we did eventually reach our destination. They were a very pleasant bus to drive having a top speed of about 52 mph with a 5 speed gearbox powered by the AEC 470 engine. Bus number SN886 of this batch was “Tuned” to operate a service along the M6 motorway to Stafford from Newcastle under Lyme. It was not that much faster than the rest but it did have a good exhaust sound, just like the older Reliances with a crackling exhaust and a whistle when going downhill with your foot off the gas.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
21/02/11 – 06:28
Newcastle was the first depot to have OMO single deckers and SN882 was one of the original conversions for the highly rural Newcastle Area services. It looks to have a smaller PMT logo on the front panel dating the photo post 1968 but has not yet had the destination display altered to a final destination with triple route number below. SN882 was one of a batch of 25 which were the first Alexander bodies for PMT leading to further orders for the second and third batch of Fleetlines followed by batches of Y type dual purpose bodies on both 8U2R (coil spring) and 6U2R (leaf spring) Reliance 691s. The Reliance 470s like SN882 had continual cylinder head gasket problems which led to instant cold heaters and demisters due to air locking and also had reliability issues with the hydraulically operated clutch mechanisms. The Alexander bodied 470s always seemed a bit flimsy to me compared with the earlier Weymann bodied examples.
In 1958, Boddy’s Motors (John Boddy & Son) purchased a trio of AEC Reliances type MU3RV, which were bodied by Yeates with their Europa bodywork. There was seating for 41 passengers and was fitted with front entrance and exit doors. The first two VBT 191/2, were to service in May, 1958, whilst the third VBT 893 entered service the following month. I am unaware what happened to these three upon withdrawal, but one, VBT 191, survived into preservation. It had chassis number 823 and Yeates body number 658. The photograph shows this vehicle at the Harrogate end of the Trans-Pennine Rally, which commenced in Manchester. It is seen on the Stray, Harrogate on Sunday August, 1985.
191 was sold to Yeates at there co Durham branch supposedly for preservation 192 was stripped of all useful mechanical and body trim and the shell went to a local haulage contractor as a store shed at a yard at the side of the railway at flambro until it was broken up when a new owner took over. 893 was sold earlier than the other two I believe to a Lancs operator. 191 appeared later with Mathers Motors in the Scottish Borders, it then went to Skegness and I understand it is now with Fowlers in Lincs. They were very pleasant coaches to drive and the exhaust brakes made a loud noise when coming to a stop every one turned round to see what was coming
Ken Wragg
19/06/11 – 20:52
Kens notes reminded me that I managed to get a photo of VBT 192 at Askham Caravan Transport in Flamborough on 14/9/82 a sad end to a fine coach.
YXD 12 was another sad end this fine vehicle ended up as a club house at a Hunmanby race track seen in 26/10/87 see below
Mike Davies
20/06/11 – 15:03
Mike, was YXD 12 a Duple Britannia ?? I think it looks like one – Wallace Arnold had just three of those, 4324/5/6 UA and I thought they were beautiful. On the East Yorkshire theme, I once took 4324 empty to Hull, had B & B in the City Centre, and then took a full load to Southend Airport next day (one of my favourite runs) to hop across to the Continent for their holidays in one of the Channel Airways Dakotas. Wallace Arnold had a huge programme based on Southend Airport in those adventurous days in the early 1960s.
Chris Youhill
21/06/11 – 07:41
YXD 12 was an AEC with duple Britannia body. with 40 seats only 4 across the back seat however it was possible to get 5 on the back and very often 1 on the courier seat this was a very nice coach to drive with air brakes
Ken Wragg
21/06/11 – 07:43
Yes, Chris, it’s the final manifestation of the Britannia before the Continental – and subsequently the Commander – took over as the AEC and Leyland body by Duple. I agree with you about its looks.
David Oldfield
21/06/11 – 07:47
Re VBT 191..Tonight I did a DVLA check and found that it is not listed on their records so at best is not currently taxed unless it has lost it’s original registration number. I then researched the website of Fowlers Travel and found that they have a complete list of every coach they have had since they started with details of when bought, date of disposal and to whom it was sold or scrapped. Sadly, the AEC is not listed as far as I can see. You can view the list here.. It will be a real shame if the coach fell into poor hands after being preserved.
Richard Leaman
21/06/11 – 16:03
Yes Chris YXD 12 was Duple Britannia, interestingly Hoods of Wold Newton, which is not to far from Bridlington had YXD 14 I don’t remember seeing it, and have not got a photo.
Another ex Boddys vehicle which I managed to photograph was RN 8672 in use as a store shed at Octon Lodge Farm, Octon. this has since gone on to one of the Ribble preservation groups I think.
Mike Davies
22/06/11 – 07:10
VBT 191 is alive and well and appeared at this year’s UK Coach Rally at Peterborough.
MikeB
22/06/11 – 07:13
If you Google the registration VBT 191, it comes up with a very nice photo on Flickr of VBT 191 at the UK Coach Rally in April of this year. The Fowlers listing given by Richard seems to omit vehicles they have acquired for preservation, as they also have 966 RVO, a Yeates bodied VAL new to Barton Transport.
Bob Gell
22/06/11 – 13:17
Thank you Mike and Bob. Good news indeed but puzzling that it is not found on the DVLA records which is why I feared it might be lost. Maybe there has been a change in it’s details recently and been temporarily off record as happened to a car I sold last year.
Richard Leaman
26/06/11 – 08:09
VBT 191 is on the DVLA website-classed as a Leyland AEC VBT 893 left the fleet as early as July 1966, and passed to an operator called Davies of Halewood.
Further to Keith Eastons earlier post-I have a fleet list for Annfield in JPEG format-probably (certainly!) incomplete.
David Hick
26/06/11 – 11:27
Such a fleet list, complete or otherwise, would be most interesting to we older “Bridophiles” David if there is any possibility please.
Chris Youhill
27/06/11 – 07:09
Davies of Halewood, eh? The last ever delivery of a RELH to an independent operator was to them. [The previous such – and the first – was to Flights.]
David Oldfield
29/06/11 – 14:37
Hello just want say I have a great interest in the Willlamsons coaches and am trying to find out as much info as possible as my family are related to them; my nana was a Williamson her Grandad was Reuben Williamson . She would recall living in Brid among all the coaches . she told us they owned horse drawn coaches before the motorised vehicles in Havelock Crescent . She moved away from Brid in her late teens and sadly passed away 2 weeks ago aged 96. This why it is of great interest to me…
Anon
01/07/11 – 05:34
RWF 785 , another former Boddy coach, can be found here: //www.flickr.com/
David Hick
01/07/11 – 09:25
Hello Anon, and firstly we’re very sorry to hear of your Grandma’s passing away. I’m not good on “family trees”, but would the lady’s father possibly have been Tim Williamson ??, as he was the son of Reuben and ran the business till the sale to EYMS. My Grandma and my Aunt knew Tim in the old days – they ran a very small B & B in St. Stephen Road.
Chris Youhill
08/10/11 – 06:18
…all this talk of Boddy’s etc. sent me to my ticket collection of which I have ‘BODDY’S MOTOR TOURS’ at 101 Promenade and 10 Hilderthorpe Road BRIDLINGTON. – also (to make Mr. Youhill dribble are scans I have done (Front and Back) scans of his ‘beloved’ WILLIMSON’S punch tickets showing ‘Havelock Crescent’ on reverse self message.
“Coming Soon” as they say to the Old Bus Tickets web site.
Peter Abel
08/10/11 – 17:23
Now then Peter A, a very good job I had a bib to hand as I’m already dribbling in anticipation !!
Chris Youhill
10/10/11 – 06:34
Ain’t we all! Cant wait to see the Boddy’s ticket
Keith Easton
12/01/12 – 06:45
Peelings of Tittleshall had YXD 10 a very similar Reliance.
Jonathan Joplin
18/07/21 – 06:28
VBT 191 is now in the heritage fleet of Thornes Independent, Hemingbrough near Selby, North Yorkshire.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
The Northern General Transport Company 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Burlingham Seagull 70 C41F
On the subject of bus liveries that has been discussed on this site recently. Some operators seemed to adopt a one style fits all livery that hardly varied from one type of vehicle to another, and made little or no allowance for differences in body style or trim. This example from the NGT group is a rather sad looking AEC Burlingham Seagull that was once a rather attractive Wakefield’s coach number 251 based at Percy Main, the depot I worked at. Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of one of these in coach livery, but in common with most other Northern group coaches ‘except Sunderland & District’ it would have been predominantly cream with maroon window surrounds and skirt, I cant remember if the roof was cream or maroon, but they did look rather splendid. This one seems to have had some other changes made, the centre roof window above the windscreen has been removed or painted out, and the seats appear to have been changed as the originals would have been red and didn’t have grab rails fitted. Sunderland & District had some Leyland Tiger Cub’s with identical bodies and they ended up in bog standard stage carriage livery.
Most regulars know that I am both an AEC and a Burlingham man. Whilst it is self evident and accepted that the original Seagull was a classic, unlike many others, I quite like the 60/70 models – even if they were not quite up to scratch with the original. I never remember one of these in Manchester in the 70s but I only ever remember coaches in this livery, not the reversed cream version. Was the Tyne – Mersey service treated as a bus service for these purposes? This would still qualify as a quality livery by today’s standards. One fascinating piece of trivia is that individual NGT group fleets were either AEC, Leyland or Guy fleets. So no standard corporate ordering there then.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 06:46
David, you are not on your own. Whilst, undeniably the Burlingham Seagull was the ‘Creme de la Creme’ I also had a soft spot for the 60/70 series. My local operator Baddeley Bros. of Holmfirth had two original Seagulls on Royal Tiger chassis KWU 844 (1951) and LWY 653 (1953). They then had Bedford SBG/Burlingham RWY 277 in 1956, again still quite attractive. Then came four SB3’s in 1959 with the hugely curved windscreen Burlingham body (probably a coach version of the PA series Vauxhall Velox/Cresta cars of the period) Then in 1961 came Bedford SB1 2496 WY with the Burlingham 61 body. This body, I thought, suited the front engine Bedford better than the underfloor AEC/Leyland chassis. This coach was followed in 1962 by a Duple Gannet bodied SB5. Things were starting to slide Burlingham wise! All these coaches served me as school buses between 1965/70 so perhaps I’m looking through rose tinted glasses. I thought the 1959 petrol engined SB’s mundane, 2496 WY and it’s Gannet bodied sister 433 BWU, so-so but when we got the Royal Tigers with the classic Seagull body which was not that often, despite there age, that was the ‘Creme de la Creme’!
Eric
02/11/11 – 09:26
Couldn’t agree with you more, Eric. They were a superb coachbuilder but, towards the end, had more than their fare share of dogs – especially regarding design. Apart from the plastic roofs on Seagull 60s, I’m not aware of any considerable drop in quality and the Duple Continental and Firefly/Dragonfly were Burlinghams in everything but name and seemed to have a good reputation. I’m a Sheffielder, who had relatives in the Barnsley and Huddersfield areas, and always thought Baddeley Brothers looked quite classy. I was only really aware of them as a student in the early 70s, passing through on the X19. By that time, the principal vehicles were Bedford YRQ/Plaxton Panorama Elite Express grant vehicles. They still looked smart, though.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 15:04
David, Your mention of plastic roofs on the 60’s has jogged my memory. I remember the cloth trim on the interior ceiling of both 2496 WY and 433 BWU being quite badly stained by the ingress of water when they would probably be only about five years old. Baddeley’s also had a Duple Alpine Continental on a Leopard chassis 474 EWW. Of course the other sizeable coach operator in the Huddersfield area was Hanson’s who had two batches of Firefly’s on Ford chassis in 1963/4
Eric
03/11/11 – 06:27
Strange, isn’t it, how many operators had heavy (or medium) weight service buses and lightweight coaches? Hanson and Booth and Fisher (recently posted) had AECs and Ford coaches, York Pullman was AEC/Bedford, the Doncaster indis went down a similar road and this was replicated around the country. Firms like Baddeley Bros were less common, but by no means unique, with their mix of heavy and light weight coaches.
David Oldfield
03/11/11 – 17:46
Hanson’s was rather a complex fleet in the fifties. The coaches were a mix of Regal III and Reliances and Bedfords and the buses were AEC with a smattering of Albions. Between 1956 and 1966 most of the AEC’s went on to be rebuilt as buses. The Bedfords were kept anything from 2 to about 5 years and from about 1959 all new coaches were Fords right to the demise of the Hanson business in 1974. This change of allegiance is thought to have being something to do with Hanson Haulage buying large numbers of Ford lorries. Baddeley’s although being a smaller operator chose both Leyland and Bedford for new coaches in the fifties, many with Burlingham bodies, this policy continuing into the sixties. They also purchased quite a few secondhand coaches, including 2 that had been operated at one time or another with Hansons. Another feature of Baddeley’s was the hiring in for the summer season of coaches from local dealer Hughes and the Baddeley’s fleet name and number being applied. Several of these were in Wallace Arnold cream as the had be leased by WA for one or two seasons from Hughes when new. This led to Baddeley’s having quite an interesting and varied fleet. Wish I had owned a camera in those days.
Eric
04/11/11 – 07:04
I agree with you David. The last of what some would call ‘proper coaches’ to carry the Wakefields name were two Plaxton Embassy Bedfords ‘SB8’s I think’. The next Wakefields after that were Alexander ‘Y’ type DP’s on Leyland Leopard chassis, but I think that would have been a decision based on economics. Percy Main depot didn’t have any long distance or express routes, so the coach fleet was only used for private hires and excursions and most were de-Licensed at the end of Blackpool Illuminations, so apart from three double deckers the Wakefields name virtually disappeared from October until about Easter, where as the DP’s were used all year round and went onto stage carriage work in winter months. If memory serves, for the first couple of years some of them had the seats changed to ordinary bus type during the winter.
Ronnie Hoye
13/11/12 – 08:40
I remember going to the Lake District in the early 60s on one of these and it did indeed have the reversed coach livery the above is a later incarnation.
Malcolm Swaddle
18/04/13 – 17:40
Not in colour I’m afraid, but I’ve found this photo of one of EFT 551’s sisters in its original Wakefield’s livery. As I’ve said, Percy Main had four of these, EFT 550/3 – 250/3; and they remained in service as coaches until about 1970, they were then transferred to Northern and downgraded to D/P’s
Sheffield United Tours 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV Burlingham C37C
In connection with the article about “Burlingham’s flock of Seagulls” by Neville Mercer. I would like to contribute the above shots of my all-time favourite coach. They looked great and were a real joy to ride. SUT’s Seagulls took me on holiday to Skegness. I attach two views, nearside & offside of the 1957 batch. Not sure of the location of 269 but YWA 273 is seen loading in Pond Street, Sheffield. Additionally many had names of European places on SUTs trips, for example, 269 was Como and 273 was Interlaken. Both had worthwhile careers after SUT. The Seagull and SUT livery were made for each other. Photos purchased from RHG Simpson.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
10/06/12 – 11:48
I know Burlingham were eventually swallowed up by Duple, but did Duple have any influence on this update from the original Seagull? From this angle the rear end seems to be very similar to the Duple design of the early sixties which had a Butterfly or Crown shaped grill ‘I’ve heard it referred to as both’ Some may disagree, but I always thought the Seagull was better suited to an under floor engined chassis rather the the likes of a Bedford, but either way it was a timeless classic
Ronnie Hoye
10/06/12 – 18:00
Anyone who has been around this site for any time will know that I am an AEC, Burlingham and, as a Sheffielder, SUT fan. The rear end design, which changed in 1957, has always puzzled me, too. It is INDENTICAL to the rear end of the Duple Butterfly Vega. This was three or four years before the Duple takeover and I don’t think there was an official link before 1960 or 1961. [Where’s Neville Mercer when you need him?] SUT coaches differed within batches as to capacity (from 30 to 41) and in the case of the Burlinghams as to seat style. Some, the “Oyster” seats were standard high backed coach seats, but others (on touring coaches) had retractable heads for better vision. Later 36′ Plaxtons had only 44 widely spaced seats for touring and no headrests for similar reasons.
David Oldfield
11/06/12 – 08:43
I reckon these particular coaches were a comparative rarity. From the Seagull Mk. IV onwards most examples were front entranced with a subtly slightly more squared up front end to suit. It seems that on the few occasions when a centre-entrance was still specified the original more rounded profile of the classic Mk. I to III was retained. This is presumably a Mk. V because of the curved rear corner window arrangement. As recent discussion has pointed out, Plaxton also retained a more rounded front end on their centre-entrance models of the period, and even more so Duple on their later Brittanias.
John Stringer
11/06/12 – 14:21
In response to David Oldfield’s interesting observation on the similarity of the Seagull to the Duple Vega body of the era I submit a picture of TWJ 249 which was one of a batch (243-252) of C41C Duple Elizabethan bodied Reliances delivered to SUT in 1955. They were MU3RV The first of the Seagulls followed in 1956. Whilst the Elizabethan is not un-attractive, for me it does not please the eye so much as either the Seagull or the Duple Vega.
The earlier batch of Seagulls for Sheffield United Tours is represented here by VWE 260 delivered in 1956. The batch was 255-266 and they were AEC Reliance MU3RV (780-791). The Seagull bodies were C41C (255/6), C39C (257/8), C37C (259-264) and C30C (265/6).
The third, and final batch of AEC Reliance Burlingham Seagulls delivered to Sheffield United Tours is represented in this picture which, as before, was purchased from RHG Simpson and illustrates 3283 WB. These were again MU3RV (1529-34) and C41C. All of these went to Neath & Cardiff, and became “Brown Bombers” in 1966.
Les Dickinson
11/06/12 – 17:49
Fantastic collection, Les. Thank you for that. The Duple Elizabethan picture has a number of interesting points to it. Firstly, the Elizabethan morphed into the Roe Dalesman. [As a “Roe” man I would like to know how this happened. Did Roe buy the rights to it or did Duple buy the rights from ACV – or what?] In the background there is one of only two vehicles “bought” second-hand – as opposed to coming with the acquisition of a fleet. Two AEC Regal IV/Plaxton Venture II came from Altrincham Coachways in 1954 when less than twelve months old. Altrincham Coachways was a subsidiary of North Western Road Car – one third of the consortium that owned SUT (along with Yorkshire Traction and East Midland). “Bought” may, therefore be stretching it a bit. One was involved in an accident but the integrity of the body held up and impressed SUT engineers so much that it was responsible for them going to Plaxtons for the Panorama when Burlingham, their preferred builder, was unwilling to do so.
David Oldfield
12/06/12 – 06:52
SUT worked very closely with Plaxton on the design of the Panorama and I believe they had the first production model David. Also, the first 36′ coach on UK roads was SUT 326, 136AWJ, which was a Reliance 4U3RA I think. This was Plaxton Panorama C44F where the forerunners had been variously C36/40/41F. Many of the original ones had names which were prefixed Panorama. For example the first two,285 and 286, were Panorama Pilot and Panorama Pioneer respectively. SUT didn’t have any Roe Dalesman however Sheffield Corporation had one, 9000WB fleet number 900/90 which had a central doorway but was mostly used as a “committee” plaything I think.
Les Dickinson
12/06/12 – 06:53
Here I am! As far as I know there is no record of Burlingham purchasing parts or design rights for the “rear end” arrangement on the Seagull Mk V from Duple. Almost all external panels were made from sheet metal in Burlingham’s own workshops. Since the Seagull V was introduced two years after the first model of Duple Super Vega with a similar back-end one must suspect that a Burlingham designer was a fan of Hendon’s design. This kind of plagiarism (or is it “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”?) was quite common back in the 1950s with both Trans-United of Rochdale and Heaver of Durrington being well-known for their Burlingham clone designs. Heaver finally took it a step too far with their New Look design of 1952. This was around 90% Seagull and attracted letters from Burlingham’s solicitors. The model was rapidly discontinued. Hate to correct you, David, but North Western didn’t buy Altrincham Coachways until 1958. At the time it sold the coaches to SUT it was still owned by the Frank Ford organisation. Ford was in the habit of selling off relatively new coaches if the price was right, and then replacing them with older vehicles from elsewhere in his empire – Altrincham Coachways received hand-me-downs from Triumph of Hastings and Gardiner of Spennymoor to replace the majority of its own fleet in 1956-57. Then, after stripping the firm’s assets, he sold it to NWRCC.
Neville Mercer
12/06/12 – 06:53
That Duple Elizabethan has a front dash panel and grill the like of which I have never seen anywhere, never mind on a Duple Elizabethan, and it is not an improvement! In its natural form I think the Elizabethan was neater and more elegant than the Dalesman, with more continuity of level between the front bit and the main window line. I’ve never heard mention of any connection before – it just looks like mild plagiarism to me. According to BBF17, Altrincham Coachways did not become a North Western subsidiary until 1958, so a purchase in 1954 would have been exactly that.
Peter Williamson
12/06/12 – 08:59
I thought you maybe interested in a colour shot of 3283 WB.
John Stringer
12/06/12 – 09:53
Neville/Peter: I stand corrected. Interesting though. Is this the same Frank Ford who went to Plaxtons, fell out with them and went to Duple to produce the Dominant – a “not quite” Elite copy? Rumour is he then ran Duple into the ground and was the architect of their demise. [A re-run of his Altricham Coachways asset stripping?] The whole point, Les, was that SUT approached Burlingham who initially refused on practical grounds. They then went to Plaxtons, after their experience with the two Regals, who came up with the Panorama and sealed a long and happy relationship. Only NBC’s insistence on going to Duple in 1973 broke this relationship. Burlingham relented, too late, with the Seagull VII – but also proved their own point in that it was structurally suspect with every alternate pillar missing to provide panoramic windows. [Plaxtons used the same idea for the Panorama. Was it the straight window line that worked for Plaxtons and the curved line which did for Burlingham?] The naming of SUT coaches started with Ben Goodfellow calling the Windover Regal IVs the “Gay” class, after his daughter Gaynor. [Another North Western connection. NWRCC had taken over the Goodfellow business and Ben moved over to be General Manager of SUT.] I believe the Elizabethans became the Elizabethen class (how original) and the Burlinghams were the Continental class. It is also interesting to note the number of Burlinghams and early Panoramas used by SUT as experimental vehicles – trying out various types of air conditioning, air suspension and even turbo-chargers, long before these became accepted, standard fitments
Nice shot, John.
David Oldfield
12/06/12 – 11:39
Yes David, it’s the same Frank Ford, and I completely agree with your comments about his later career. For some reason he always reminded me of Freddie Laker, but I’d probably better not use the word “spiv”!
Neville Mercer
13/06/12 – 09:47
Aw, go on. There’s a picture somewhere of him giving a prize to Flight’s for their Bristol RELH6L/Plaxton at the coach rally. He just looks as you said.
David Oldfield
13/06/12 – 09:48
Some very interesting information there from Neville Mercer. The Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group site contains a section on Bus Adverts which has a picture of the Heaver design, to which I think Neville refers. It is registered PYA 578 and bears the name ‘Crown Tours’. I had wondered if it was a vehicle which ever existed or if it was simply a ‘doctored’ Burlingham photograph, such is the resemblance. I wonder if anyone has a picture of it which could be posted on here because, as Neville says, it is 90% Burlingham Seagull!
But a cheap imitation nonetheless – none of the subtlety of the original.
David Oldfield
14/06/12 – 18:19
Well, David, they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. However, imitations are seldom as good as the original, and having seen the picture I don’t think this is any exception.
Ronnie Hoye
17/06/12 – 09:09
Here is last month’s front view of Harper Bros., Staffs, No. 90, a rare combination of 1959 Guy LUF with Gardner 6HLW engine and Burlingham Seagull body
Chris Hebbron
17/06/12 – 16:14
Copyright Albert S. Bite
And now a rear view shot thanks to Albert S. Bite
Chris Hebbron
27/06/12 – 06:56
Regarding the two Regal IV’s purchased by SUT from Altrincham Coachways in February 1954 (RMB 158 & JBU 164). Both entered service with SUT still in the blue & cream of their previous owner but after around six months, the blue was repainted red leaving the rest cream. It was due to RMB 158 having a smash near the Cat & Fiddle on the way to Macclesfield that the company decided to approach Plaxtons with a view to building what was to become the Panorama. Burlingham was initially contacted by the company in 1957 but they turned down the idea. The Panorama was designed by the GM of SUT, Ben Goodfellow and his Chief Engineer, Ron Burgin. The Panorama name was submitted by an employee electrician at SUT by the name of John Otter who won £5 for his idea. Incidentally, SUT paid the sum of £3.980 each for RMB & JBU.
Trev Weckert
27/06/12 – 10:03
Good to welcome Mr Weckert to the forum. I have a copy of his excellent SUT book in the Venture/Prestige series.
David Oldfield
28/06/12 – 07:49
Many thanks for your kind words David. It has been mentioned that some although not all of SUT’s Seagull’s had air conditioning. To clarify this, the first delivered in 1956 (VWE255-258) had no such fitment whilst VWE 259-266 had Key Leather units fitted in a ‘pod’ on the roof which was powered by paraffin. The 1957 batch (YWA 267-278)and the 1958 ones (3279 WB-3284 WB had Webasto units mounted beneath the floor. Incidentally, 266 became the official transport of the Joe Loss Orchestra and bore the legend “In The Mood” whilst SUT had this contract. This was the second coach to undertake this duty, the first being a Windover Kingsway bodied Regal IV (RWE 228). Hope this is of some interest.
Trev Weckert
17/07/12 – 18:00
Trev Weckert mentions the “Joe Loss – In The Mood” vehicles. Herewith a picture of VWE 266 in that very mood. Note the clef symbol below the side-light This one was MU3RV 791, Burlingham 6086, normally C41C, but C30C whilst on this contract. This vehicle went to Murrellmills, Trafford Park in, or by 1967
Les Dickinson
26/10/12 – 07:00
I seem to have missed some of the later comments on this thread. I like the reference to the Joe Loss coach, and its clef symbol. One of my former colleagues was something of a musician in his spare time, being involved with a Bavarian-style band. His initials were PJG, which he always wrote as the clef.
Pete Davies
03/01/14 – 08:01
Interesting to read about SUT. I regularly travelled with them as a youngster. However they used to have a coach based on the Isle Of Man. Such was the size of their operation. I remember seeing it on Douglas promenade in the early sixties. I can’t remember what model it was but I believe it was an AEC. It also had an IOM registration.
Andrew T
03/01/14 – 09:52
Andrew, the IOM law at the time was that any vehicle so “outstationed” should have a local registration. Thus, each year, an SUT coach was re-registered for a stay on the IOM. It was only there for a season – less than a calendar year – and then returned home to Sheffield. It was not necessarily the same one in even consecutive years. Whether the same IOM mark was used I do not know. [Trevor Weckert, are you out there?]
David Oldfield
05/01/14 – 16:43
I have traced four SUT Reliances that carried Manx registrations: 1958 Burlingham 284 (3284 WB) carried “YMN 616” for the 2/59 to 04/62 seasons 1960 Plaxton 309 (6309 WJ) carried “5380 MN” for the 05/62 to 04/66 seasons 1961 Plaxton 321 (1321 WA) carried “69 FMN” for the 04/66 to 01/71 seasons 1970 Plaxton 409 (DWA 409H) carried “96XMN” for the 04/71 to 09/72 seasons
Dave Farrier
07/01/14 – 07:06
Slightly off topic, but related to registration plates. When I was at secondary school in Harrogate in the late ‘sixties, our brilliant art teacher Miss Daly had a beautiful ‘Old English White’ Morgan sports car. It had the customary black pressed alloy number plates with aluminium-coloured letters/numerals, which were noteworthy in having yellow-coloured surrounds front and rear. I later discovered this indicated that the vehicle was temporarily imported from abroad, which tied in nicely with our art teacher being from New Zealand. (From memory the car was registered in the HOX-E series). Probably a long shot, but I wonder if any PSV’s ever sported such plates.
Brendan Smith
07/01/14 – 13:38
Brendon, Temporary reg no’s were QA-QT
Roger Broughton
10/01/14 – 18:32
Thanks for the info regarding the Q-series registrations Roger. Although I knew of them, probably from I-Spy books, I had obviously misunderstood the information I had read in my youth relating to yellow number plate surrounds, and wrongly linked the two. All these years I have been under the mis-apprehension that the white Morgan was a temporary import. Following further research on t’interweb, it transpires that between 1963 and 1972, vehicles purchased in the UK for subsequent export were given number plates with yellow edging (which was changed to red in 1973), indicating that purchase tax (or later, VAT) had not been paid. Fortunately this still ties in nicely with said Morgan, as Miss Daly left the school in 1968, presumably to return to New Zealand with her fine sports car. I hold my wrist out for a firm slap Roger, comforted by the fact that this website continues to contribute so admirably to lifelong learning.
Brendan Smith
20/01/14 – 08:08
Although the Kingsways of SUT were the first ‘official’ named coaches in the fleet, a number of unofficial namings took place. Half cab Regals from the KWA batch received the following KWA 707 Yorkshire Lad, KWA 712 Highland Monarch, KWA 717 Torquay Queen, KWA 721 Bournemouth Belle. KWA 723 was the first Sheffield Wednesday coach in the fleet. Originally it had a football mounted above the cab. A number of Kingsways had Thermotank forced air systems from new. Incidentally some of the VWE regd Seagull had air conditioning by Key-Leather mounted in a pod on the roof powered by Paraffin.
Trev Weckert
20/01/14 – 11:59
What did I start here?? What a great post this turned out to be, with some wonderful comments and information from a wide range of knowledgeable people. Thanks Trev for this latest comment which confirmed to me that I was a tad less mad than I thought I was. I always thought that I had either seen, or seen a picture of, KWA 712 as “The Yorkshire Lad” when I was just that. I have never been able to find any such confirmation in print. I, for one, am never too old to learn something new and today’s lesson came courtesy of Mr. Weckert!
Les Dickinson
27/01/14 – 15:55
Hi Les, Just to put things straight, it was KWA 707 that wore Yorkshire Lad and it also bore a Tam O Shanta transfer on the bonnet side. In the early fifties a number of coaches were borrowed from Northern Roadways in Glasgow and upon return by SUT staff (including Jack Hancock and Jim Heenan) it was noted that their coaches had this transfer on them. The management was asked if they could spare a couple. Upon return to Sheffield, transfers were affixed to bonnets of KWA 706/707.
Trev Weckert
31/01/14 – 15:44
I have your book from the Library at present. As a boy I used to go & look at the SUT garage to marvel at the coaches & their destinations. You did a great job Trev.
Andy Fisher
01/09/17 – 05:57
Regarding the 1st Montreaux Coach Rally. I was always told that my Father Walter Fothergill was the driver who drove the SUT coach that won this rally.
Edward Fothergill
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
14/01/20 – 16:14
This picture of an SUT Seagull brings back happy memories. I attended St Wilfrids school between 1963 and 1968. Our original school bus which was owned by the school and driven by the caretaker Mr O’Toole, was a green Chesterfield lowdecker. This had four abreast seating upstairs on the left side and a sunken trough on the right side. At some point this was replaced by a Seagull which still bore the SUT livery. I remember it being very luxurious when compared to every other bus I’d seen previously. It would start collecting pupils on Shoreham Street, up Wolsley Rd, then up Abbeydale Rd to Millhouses Lane. I’d catch it outside Abbeydale Cinema. Anybody have any idea which registration it carried. Sadly, driver had eyesight problems, and the bus languished in it’s parking spot till disposal.
M Stevenson
19/01/20 – 06:18
Reliance 264 (VWE 264) passed to St Wilfred’s Roman Catholic School, Sheffield in 1965, then to Trevor Ward and Son Limited, Kirkburton in 10/1970, being withdrawn in 10/1971. Probably had more legroom in its C37C format, compared to Ribble’s GCK-registered Royal Tigers which were C41C.
This was a one off purchase by Sheffield initially used for visits, inspections etc by the Transport Committee but later used in normal service. My mother travelled on it on a number of occasions on service 48 to Manchester via Woodhead when visiting relations ‘over there’. Having a centre entrance made it unsuitable for one man operation but it still lasted until 1970. Since much of the Peak District single deck work had by this time been converted to OMO, I wonder what use was made of it in the final two or three years. The bus was renumbered 90 in the 1967 scheme and I recall it being in a pretty dreadful external condition towards the end of its life. This was Sheffield’s only AEC Reliance (perhaps experience suggested the Leyland 0.600 engine in the early Leopards was a better bet than the head gasket failure prone AEC AH470) and their only coach body built by Roe. I think it is quite an elegant design from what was generally a bus body builder. I assume it would be teak framed like their standard double deck design . Note the non standard size Sheffield Transport fleet name transfer above the City coat of arms.
Oh the blessed 900/90. What Ian says from both a professional and enthusiast perspective is quite right, but the Leopards came later. The story I heard was about Civic Spite – between Sheffield and Leeds. Leeds bought one and Sheffield had to have one as well. [Bit like Salford and Manchester.] I assume the 1955 Moncoaches were AH470 rather than AH410, but I agree dry-liner 0.600s were probably a better bet than wet-liner AH470s for charging across the Pennines and into the Peak District. As Charles H Roe’s biggest fan, I’m a little sorry that the Dalesman didn’t quite take off into great popularity – but that wasn’t really the point. Just as Plaxton’s built buses in the summer to cover their dead period, Roe built batches of Dalesmans for sale from stock when they had fallow periods of bus construction. [On that basis, I suppose it’s surprising they built so many Dalesmans!] The construction was of Roe’s original and best.
David Oldfield
20/06/12 – 08:17
David. you’re probably aware of this already, but Economic of Whitburn had one of these splendid vehicles on an AEC chassis ‘YPT 796’ and I’m pleased to say that its still alive and well and now forms part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection
Ronnie Hoye
20/06/12 – 08:18
Leeds first coach came in 1965 and was an AEC Reliance with a different style of Roe bodywork. It was always used as a private hire vehicle and never as a committee toy! Indeed the only saloons in the Leeds fleet at that time were some centre entrance standee types on Leyland AEC and Guy chassis seating 34 and some newer Reliances with dual door bodywork. All carried Roe bodies and had mountainous steps. They were certainly not coaches! Locally West Riding had a batch of AEC Reliance coaches with Dalesman bodywork
Chris Hough
20/06/12 – 11:38
These stories which go the rounds….. I actually drove the Leeds coach when in the ownership of David Crowther’s Classic Coaches of High Wycombe. [In lousy weather from Reading to Lord’s Cricket ground – and back.] The Dalesman was dropped after the slightly odd final version in 1959, of which Black & White had, I believe, six. After that, the Roe coach was far closer to a DP on the standard bus shell. Leeds and York Pullman showed how to “coachify” the body to make it more than acceptable for Private Hires – as did Booth and Fisher. Ronnie, I was aware of the Economic coach, but not its continued existence. Thanks for the good news. Regrettably this Sheffield exile in Surrey may never get to see it in your beautiful part of the world.
David Oldfield
20/06/12 – 11:39
There are shots of both the Economic and also a West Riding example at www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
21/06/12 – 06:43
There are some interesting comments above and on other pages of this site regarding civic jealousy, rather than civic pride, when it came to having a coach in the fleet. In Southampton, there was a period when the then Transport Manager wanted at least dual purpose vehicles if not full coaches, to support his growing private hire business. The idea was rejected by the Committee, largely because one of the members was of the family owning a local coach operator. Shouldn’t there have been a declaration of interest? I imagine from the photo that this coach was in overall cream livery. I feel it would have looked better with the lower panels – where the crest is – in blue.
Pete Davies
21/06/12 – 06:44
The story goes that on one of its first outings with the Transport Committee on board, 9000 WB ground to a halt in the centre of the city, needing rescue. Apparently before leaving Townhead Street garage, the driver had topped it up with water, but had poured it into the the fuel tank instead of the radiator. Can’t begin to imagine what the Committee chairman had to say about that!
Dave Careless
21/06/12 – 06:44
It was known amongst Sheffield Transport staff as the “blunderbus”!
P White
21/06/12 – 06:45
Felix of Hadfield also had a “coachified” AEC Reliance- Roe DP vehicle which is happily still around it lives at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum
Chris Hough
21/06/12 – 06:46
David O, I don’t understand your passing reference to Salford and Manchester. Salford had a committee coach – a self-indulgent 26-seat Weymann Fanfare-bodied Reliance that rarely turned a wheel – but I don’t believe Manchester did.
Peter Williamson
21/06/12 – 11:22
Peter. Sometimes the brain is faster than the finger. Manchester always had some sort of coach for Ringway services, Salford had to have one and, like Sheffield, the only true use was for the Committee. Yes, the Fanfare got more use in SELNEC days on airport work. [I believe its predecessor was a full fronted Daimler CVD6/Burlingham.
David Oldfield
21/06/12 – 11:25
Did Roe have any liaison with Duple over the Dalesman as it bears more than a passing resemblance to the Duple Elizabethan body. Similarly the last version of the Dalesman has a look of the contemporary Willowbrook Viscount One of these ex Felix of Hadfield is also preserved at Sandtoft.
Chris Hough
21/06/12 – 19:06
Just for the record, Sheffield used its other coaches (23 I believe) on the longer routes, for example the Peak District routes / railway routes.
Les Dickinson
21/06/12 – 19:12
It is said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I think that Roe were probably just inspired by the Elizabethan and copied the general outline of the front entrance version, with its slightly more upright front, yet making it sufficiently different in detail so as not to cause any bother. The Dalesman’s window line was a fraction higher and slightly straighter, and the forward sloping pillar that divided these from the front section was slightly squarer. I rather prefer the Dalesman myself, but Duple soon replaced the Elizabethan with the neater Brittania with its uninterrupted window line, whereas Roe continued with the stepped outline.
John Stringer
07/08/12 – 07:19
I suspect this was as much to do with civic pride as anything else. If Leeds has got one, we must too and vice versa. LCT certainly had a Reliance coach, C reg I think. Then there was SCTs 500 City Clipper service, cos Leeds had one, using Merc minibuses. It continues today with the nonsense over trams.
In the nineteen fifties West Riding bought very few batches of saloons They were used on a selection of routes. Seen in Leeds bus station is a Roe bodied AEC Reliance fleet number 817 registration JHL 717 which dates from 1956. It is on the “back roads route” from Leeds to Castleford via Swillington and Fryston. West Riding did not always bother with route numbers as is evident from this shot The bus certainly shows the effect of road grime on paintwork as it stands in Leeds bus station in 1967.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hough
01/08/12 – 07:19
Odd design- front not very Roe? It may well have picked that spray up that day on that back roads route- could be off the fields or clay slurry from mining. Note the single mini-wiper and the gloop around its perimeter, the state of the wheels/tyres and (possibly) the wet muck behind the rear wheels. It got better when the windows were covered too- that’s where the idea for the all-over adverts came from. Nearly on thread: West Riding’s successors, Arriva, have just managed to provide a new batch of deckers with facing fore and aft seats over the rear wheels. Now where do the local yobbery put their muddy feet/boots? Arriva are now providing notices to try to stop people dirtying their clothes on muddy seats. Come back practical designers… conductors… inspectors!!
Joe
01/08/12 – 08:53
Actually, very Roe, Joe. For a time in the early fifties, this droopy windscreen was a feature of Roe saloons – and distinguished them from their Park Royal cousins built on the same frames. I like your theory about the origins of contra-vision adverts, though!
David Oldfield
01/08/12 – 11:59
As we Geordies would say “wor bairns hacky mucky” rough translation “the baby is in need of a wash”
Ronnie Hoye
01/08/12 – 12:01
What a dismal scene! Obviously a grotty day, when some photographers would leave the camera at home because of a) the weather and b) the resulting dirty appearance of the vehicle. There are some photographers of buses who capture only “pristine” views but there is a real world out there and it often happens that the cleaners can’t keep pace with the weather. It may just happen that the photographer is on holiday and wants to record the local transport. I know that doesn’t apply in this case, but what’s the photographer supposed to do, come back next year and hope the same bus is still in service? Very atmospheric, and the black and white print enhances that. Thanks for sharing. Interesting comment from Joe regarding back to back seating over the rear wheels. I first noticed this with Bolton Corporation, but the idea still persists. The original idea was to have greater seating capacity. The inward facing arrangement seems to me to be far better. Clearly, a candidate for the “nice idea, but . . .” file!
Pete Davies
01/08/12 – 15:38
While “facing seats” are not by any means ideal the abuse of them on both buses and trains is absolutely abominable. Its almost certain that, as you walk past any stationary bus, if you look inside you will see passengers with their filthy footwear planted on the opposite seat – and not just placed there either – there will be plenty of “scrubbing” in every direction just to plant more filth and to cause as much wear to the material as possible. It might be thought that those responsible would just be the yobs of Society, but not a bit of it – the culprits are just as likely to be smartly dressed businessmen or secretarial young ladies. It is a despicable and costly habit, of which the perpetrators are fully aware and, apart from the burden placed on transport operators, the ruination of decent peoples hard earned nice clothing is scandalous. In summary the phrase “Blow you Jack I’m alright” springs to mind, and in reality there can be no cure for it – its sadly just another sign of “Today.”
Chris Youhill
01/08/12 – 17:37
You’re dead right, Joe and Chris. However, it seems to be a universal problem. I remember once risking my life by photographing a couple of youths on a German train with their feet on the seat directly under a large and unambiguous”Halten Sie Füße weg von den Sitzen”(or similar) sign and graphic image. Needless to say, they just laughed at me, but (who knows) maybe the memory of the occasion may just hit home to one of them in years to come? Staff, particularly on railways, rarely bother to challenge the offenders as they prefer a quiet life, and who can blame them? However, one can sometimes come unstuck by making big assumptions – like the time I worked myself into a Victor Meldrew Harumph on seeing a lady with outstretched legs onto the opposite seat in a first class carriage. I was on the brink of saying something when I thankfully noticed that she had removed her shoes and placed a newspaper on the seat to rest her stockinged feet! Phew! Nearly an “I’ll get my coat…….” moment!
Paul Haywood
02/08/12 – 07:12
Would, the would be perpetrators on arriving home put their muddy /dirty shoes on their own furniture thus defiling their property, I think not.
David Henighan
02/08/12 – 07:13
Sometimes a bit of sarcasm works wonders, when I was at Armstrong Galley one of our drivers had a notice in his coach ‘if the floor is full please don’t hesitate to use the litter bin’ strangely enough it seemed to work
Ronnie Hoye
02/08/12 – 07:13
I acknowledge your knowledge, David. I was thinking of exclusive Roe users like Doncaster, but at that time they were still on half cabs! Underfloor came much later.
Joe
02/08/12 – 07:14
I thoroughly agree with Joe regarding back to back seating over rear wheel arches, they seem to be obligatory with modern day low floor buses. I witnessed one of Stagecoach leather coach seated Scania/ALX 400’s when only days old being so treated despite various notices asking that it not be done. When I was a driver I would wherever possible make a point of loudly asking for all feet to be taken off all seats it seemed popular with most passengers except the thoughtless culprits, as Chris says another sign of “today” I’m glad that I retired 9 years ago.
Diesel Dave
02/08/12 – 07:15
I wholeheartedly agree about the comments made about yobs (and non yobs) putting their feet on the back to back seats, who knows what they could have stood in? A few years ago I went for a lengthy trip on the Yorkshire Coastliner service between Leeds and Scarborough and felt the need to contact the company about some matter or other, I honestly can’t remember what it was now. Anyway, I took the opportunity to mention that this seating arrangement was not ideal for such a long journey and that people sat on the back seat tended to use the facing seat as a footrest. Coastliner’s suggestion was that I should have had a word with the perpetrators!
Dave Towers
02/08/12 – 11:18
Dave Towers received a somewhat pathetic and “resigned” reply from Coastliner – did they also include a list of A & E departments along the route where Dave could receive attention to his injuries after the quite likely “smack in t’ mouth” which could result from “having a word.” I share Diesel Dave’s sentiments and I am glad that I retired eleven years ago – the level of appalling conduct by too many passengers is now beyond a joke – and I loved the career to a passion – so I can well understand how most drivers who are doing the job “just for a living” must feel.
Chris Youhill
02/08/12 – 11:20
Joe. This comes down to personal experience – if you had never come across the droopy screens then you would assume they did not exist, or were an aberration. I happen to be a Roe fan/”expert” – but presumably, with Doncaster connections, so are you. I’ve been caught out in the past myself.
David Oldfield
02/08/12 – 17:12
Tough attitude of passengers both young and old can be yobbish but to a degree the companies are also at fault. In Leeds the interior of vehicles are often filthy with old newspapers, tickets etc on buses just out of the depot. Minor vandalism such as graffiti is left in situ so Joe Public see an unloved uncared for bus that they think hmm the company don’t care why should I. I am old enough to remember buses smelling of disinfectant on leaving the depot not last nights takeaway!
Chris Hough
02/08/12 – 17:13
I seem to remember being told that the reason for the demise of inward facing seats over wheelarches, in favour of back to back ones, was an ‘elfen safety’ issue. It was reckoned that passengers could fall off these seats too easily when the bus cornered (yes, they did actually sometimes!). I agree entirely with all the above sentiments regarding inconsiderate, yobbish behaviour on buses these days, and as someone who still has to drive buses for a living (albeit part-time now, after nearly 40 years full-time) for a major operator, it is heartening to know that at least a few of you sympathise with the hopeless situation we find ourselves in. All too often, present day bus drivers are criticised for being uncaring and disinterested, and held totally to blame for the state of the industry today. Physically we may have it easier with our automatic gearboxes, power-steering and computerised ticket machines – no more grappling with crash boxes, heavy steering or snipping away at piles of Willebrew tickets etc. – but the job is much more stressful, frustrating and demoralising in a host of different ways that the PSV drivers and conductors of yesteryear could never envisage. Passengers often complain that the “bus driver should have done something” when there has been yobbish, unsocial behaviour taking place but, as Chris rightly implies, one is certainly putting oneself at risk of abuse – at the very least of the foul verbal kind, and quite possibly of the violent physical kind – if one intervenes. It’s just not worth it. The companies pay lip service to their official intolerance of this kind of behaviour, but otherwise just ignore the issue – probably for fear of appearing too authoritarian. Even yobs are fare-paying passengers so we must not upset them too much.
John Stringer
03/08/12 – 07:55
I remember these buses coming through Dewsbury on the joint West Riding/Yorkshire Woollen service 3 to Cullingworth. I believe one is being prepared at the Dewsbury Bus Museum.
Philip Carlton
09/08/12 – 09:30
If I may climb back over the seats to the subject of Roe Underfloor Designs of the 50’s…. checking with Peter Gould’s list, I see that Doncaster actually bought a single centre entrance Regal IV in 1951…it must have been a sort of Festival of Britain experimental fling, because they also bought the two 8ft double deckers- Regent III and CVD6- which they sold on as two wide (for the streets or the washer- the jury is out) and then the two all-Leyland PD2’s which were the last non-Roe deckers ever bought and, trolley-bodied, lasted nearly 20 years: the next year, I see they bought nothing! Anyway… the party was clearly over and they reverted to half cab Regal IIIs in 1953, which were more typical of this traditional fleet. But… my point is that I have found a pic of 21 and it doesn’t have droopy windscreens… angled two piece, it seems…… so the droopy screens came later…
Joe
11/08/12 – 07:27
Pontypridd U.D.C. had three 1957 Guy Arab LUF’s with Roe rear-entrance bodies and ‘droopy’ windscreens – try this link:- www.sct61.org.uk/ Lancashire United Transport had some Atkinson PM746H’s with Roe bodies with similar fronts also, see:- www.flickr.com/photos/
John Stringer
11/08/12 – 09:20
I’ll throw another one at you Joe. You mentioned square screens on Regal IVs – just like Sheffield’s 12 – 14. The droopies were only on Reliances (and contemporary underfloors) which would make them 1953 onwards – but still from “the early fifties”.
David Oldfield
12/08/12 – 07:21
As Manuel said… I learn… I learn. Curious that the “square” underfloor body designs look better or more modern…like that Pennine Royal Tiger.
Joe
16/11/12 – 09:04
John mentions (02/08/12) the yobbish attitude of passengers sadly this attitude to other peoples property is prevalent in all walks of life. I work in the NHS and we have a constant problem with mindless vandalism to furniture in particular. I once asked a culprit if he would do the same to his own property and was met with a torrent of four letter words and told I pay your effin wages so shut it.
Chris Hough
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
04/07/14 – 07:41
You get a fine from Merseyrail Electrics if you put your feet on their seats. There are signs up warning about it and they seem to work. Not that I use their trains very often.
Maidstone & District Motor Services Ltd 1954 AEC Reliance MU3RV Harrington C37C
A recent posting led to a discussion about the relative importance in a PSV of economy, reliability and good looks, and I picked this vehicle as an example that in my opinion embraces all three qualities. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and my personal preferences may not be shared by others, but the lines of these coaches always seemed to me to be well-balanced and elegant in an understated way, if, perhaps, a trifle old-fashioned. The styling of the roofline around the destination indicator was a treatment popular with many coach builders and operators for front-engined vehicles, but by the mid-1950s, the effect had become a bit dated. Very appealing, nevertheless, and the epitome of high quality and pedigree. Sadly, C329 doesn’t look its best in the photo – absolutely no criticism of Chris’s camera work, but following withdrawal it’s become scruffy and the sun’s angle casts a shadow that exaggerates the front windscreen divisions. Also, the “moustache” beading may seem fussy, but it was almost an M&D trademark. I’d be grateful for other correspondents’ views on C329’s attractiveness or otherwise. [This link will show C328, in rather smarter condition.] M&D were substantial Harrington customers for many years and they had almost 50 vehicles of this design in their extensive, (I’d say excessive), coach fleet. By the time I joined, they had been withdrawn from front line express duties, however, and were kept mainly to provide summer capacity. Like every underfloor-engined AEC I ever drove, their road manners were impeccable. Even the prospect of a spell at the wheel was a pleasure to look forward to. They were also both economical and very reliable. Inside, these coaches were not, perhaps, as light and airy as some of their contemporaries, but there was no sense of claustrophobia. On the contrary, they conveyed an atmosphere of relaxation, reinforced by the wonderfully comfortable seats and by their extraordinary quietness. Their main drawback, (only drawback as far as I’m concerned), was the centre entrance, which made it uneconomic to convert them to other uses.
Photo by Chris Hough. Many thanks for his kind permission to use it.
6 of this batch were acquired by Yorkshire Woollen where they were nicknamed Gunboats by the crews.TKM 304/26/347/348/9/5O were numbered 435-440. They were purchased to replace a similar number of Commer/Beadles. Another member of the batch was purchased by Hebble Motor Services at Halifax to replace an ex Red Line Reliance that was a fire victim. After YWD they went on to an operator called Davies of Ferryhill County Durham except for 436 that was broken up by YWD after a bad accident.
Philip Carlton
17/08/12 – 07:23
As a northern boy I didn’t get to see the inside. My personal view of the outside is of a fine looking coach. Perhaps one-too-many windows/panels. One less, but slightly longer would have enhanced the appearance, and the roofline over the front is not enhanced by the application of the livery. In my opinion the cream area should have followed the outline of the roof – then- almost perfection. No doubt others will say tosh, but that’s my thought.
Les Dickinson
17/08/12 – 10:26
The box for the fleetname over the destination and service number boxes doesn’t help the outline. Either omit the fleetname or omit the service number box and have the destination and fleetname side by side. Then use another BET operator’s style of livery (Ribble or Southdown) and it would make quite a lot of difference. As we are, it seems a feeble attempt at imitating the Silver Star front dome.
Pete Davies
17/08/12 – 12:32
As a Kentishman I have to say I can’t see anything wrong with the livery or layout of the destination! Shame to see this looking so scruffy though – I remember these coaches featuring on the cover of M&D’s tours brochures which were captioned “Over the hills and far away”. The Silver Star “headboard” was an abomination on this design and ruined an otherwise graceful look. All these things are of course subjective…
Andrew Goodwin
17/08/12 – 12:33
Roy is right about the state of the coach and very kind about my photograph! The coach was parked in a back street in Preston and was certainly not in the M&D fleet! Like a number of fifties coaches these seem to be built like the proverbial brick Outhouse!
Chris Hough
17/08/12 – 16:29
I have to disagree with Andrew on this one – I thought that the Silver Star Wayfarer Mark 2s were vastly improved by their headboards, unlike that operator’s all-Leyland Royal Tigers and Burlingham Seagull which really did look atrocious. Preservationists seem to agree with me as both MMR 552 and 553 are still with us, and the owner of “553” once told me that there was a waiting list of people who wanted to buy the coach from him at any reasonable price. If I ever win the jackpot in the lottery I will outbid them all!
Neville Mercer
There is a posting of them both together coming shortly. Watch this space as they say.
Peter
18/08/12 – 07:40
In my opinion, which doesn’t count for much…I think that destination information on the front of bus/coaches should always be upright so that reflections are reduced and they become easier for those of us whose sight is not 20/20 to read at a glance. Obviously that would not tie in very well with the design of this coach, but I must admit that the picture of it in the link is very smart and clean…
Norman Long
20/08/12 – 08:05
Funny: until this very moment I’ve looked at photographs of these vehicles and thought “M&D coach, nice”: but all of a sudden the affinity with some nasty little Gurney-Nutting(?) bodied Commers(?) has struck me, and now I just find them hideous. Why? The “pinched-in front”, the way the front dome just seems to push the already squeezed-in front down, giving a sort of hump-backed appearance to the whole thing – and there are too many windows, which (on their own) I could live with. Ugh. In full M&D rig and in the context of when they were built it might have been a different story . . .
Philip Rushworth
20/08/12 – 09:08
Philip, nice to see there are people who can call “the Emperor’s new clothes” in the face of popular opinion. M & D vehicles were just magnificently turned out, but I never rated these Harringtons. They got it very right with the Cavalier/Grenadier but the Bedford/Ford versions were hideous and the Legionnaire not much better. Balanced design again – you either have or you don’t.
David Oldfield
20/08/12 – 14:02
I’ve held back until now on commenting about these Harrington bodies, but seeing that Philip Rushworth and David Oldfield have entered less than rhapsodic views about them, I will say that I always thought them to be incredibly ugly vehicles. Just compare the styling with other contemporary designs using curved corner glasses at the front – the classic ECW LS coach, for example. Harrington did very much better with the Cavalier.
Roger Cox
24/08/12 – 08:36
Who’d build coach bodies – it’s a fickle market isn’t it? driven by fashion, rather than by loyalty. Burlingham got it right with the “original” Seagull then missed the “zeitgeist” with subsequent offerings; as did Harrington with the Cavalier/Grenadier; Duple seemed to judge the market right for many years until gradually loosing the plot and fading away in the 80s(?); and Plaxton seems have picked up from the mid-1960s with the introduction of the Panorama. However, history seems to suggest the Plaxton’s days are numbered, and that they are due to misjudge the market and enter decline (look what happened to Leyland et. al.) . . . but there aren’t any more British coach builders to take their place!
Philip Rushworth
24/08/12 – 12:24
You’re so right Philip. Duple lost the plot and went bust at the end of the ’80s – when Plaxton bought their intellectual rights. Duple’s is a very sad story inexorably linked with a certain Mr Ford who had previously fallen out with Plaxton and moved over to Duple – hence the vague similarity between the Panorama Elite and the Dominant.
David Oldfield
24/08/12 – 12:25
Seems I’m in a small minority in liking this design. At the risk of losing whatever tiny credibility I might ever have had in these pages, however, I remain unrepentant.
Roy Burke
24/08/12 – 15:43
You’re still welcome and entirely entitled to your own opinions, Roy. There are times when – in my professional, musical life – I differ from my colleagues. Grown ups accept each other, regardless (and I think most of us are grown up on this forum).
David Oldfield
11/02/13 – 13:27
You’re not alone Roy, I like the Wayfarer 2 style as well. I don’t think it was as nice as the later Wayfarer 4 but for an early 1950s body, I think it was quite stylish. It did make an attempt to get away from just being a box, which is so easy on an underfloor flat front single decker. I think Harrington bodies were all of real quality and generally well styled (with as always the obligatory exception). They were certainly better looking than many of the competitors’ efforts.
Gordon Mackley
14/06/13 – 07:31
The Reliance Harrington C37C don’t remember them even though grew up with M & D but can say I was on one just last week don’t remember batch but sure worked all over the M & D patch ended its days think in Bexhill can say a very impressive coach so as they say watch this space soon be out of hiding.
Paul
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
08/06/15 – 16:08
Maidstone and District’s Wayfarer 2 bodies came on three different types of chassis and they were each very different. The most numerous (in terms of both vehicles and photos) were the AEC Reliances. The Leyland Royal Tiger versions had central entrances like the AECs and might have been expected to be the same but in fact had vertical rather than sloping window pillars. The Commer Contender versions were of a completely different configuration, having front entrances. Interestingly the centre entrance coaches had front offside emergency exits and the front entrance Contenders centre ones!
Black and White Motorways 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Duple C37C
Seen at their base in Cheltenham Coach Station on Sunday 20 August 1967 on Associated Motorways services are two members of the Black and White Motorways fleet. 182 (PAD 182) is a Willowbrook bodied Guy Arab LUF, new in 1955 and 222 (8222 AD) is a Duple bodied AEC Reliance new in 1961. Both are 37 seaters, with a centre entrance, which was standard for Black and White at the time, apart from a batch of 5 Roe Dalesman bodied Reliances new in 1959, which had 41 seats and a front entrance. The somewhat flamboyant Duple body on 222 contrasts with the restrained, classic elegance of the ECW bodied Bristol MW in Royal Blue livery alongside, also on Associated Motorways work.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell
05/09/12 – 08:45
Another gem! I never experienced Cheltenham Coach Station, but I had two years of coach travel between Birmingham and Lancaster in the 1966/68 era. A veritable rainbow on steroids.
Pete Davies
05/09/12 – 08:46
What a great pic. Things aint what they used to be. Thanks for sharing that.
Les Dickinson
06/09/12 – 06:53
As an AEC (and Bristol) man, it’s amazing how many Guy Arab UF/LUF coaches have pitched up on this forum in recent months. I never came across one personally, but it is significant how many of you hold them in high regard and great affection.
David Oldfield
07/09/12 – 07:17
On that subject, David, in 1955 Northern General took delivery of 16 Weymann Fanfare’s, 6 on AEC chassis went to Wakefield’s, the other 10 for Northern were on Guy Arab UF/LUF and had the almost indestructible Gardner 6HLW. They had quite long lives for coaches, they were re-trimmed an re-seated by Plaxton’s in 1964 and were still around in 1968. Sadly I don’t think any survived into preservation, but to my mind the Fanfare was timeless classic that wouldn’t look out of place now
Ronnie Hoye
07/09/12 – 07:19
I worked in and out of Cheltenham from Eastbourne in the summer during the early 70’s when working for Southdown arriving to connect with the 16:00 hrs mass departure and leaving the next day with the 14:00 hrs departure these mass departures were a sight to behold looking chaotic but in reality very well organised any late arrivals contacting the control office to advise of any onward connections so that only those services needing to be held back were. I remember the Reliance/Duple coaches by that time relegated to mainly duplicate journeys and were not very popular and known to all Black & White drivers as “Bubblecars” usually given to first season drivers who were then told to follow the service car he then found the service driver with the well known request “don’t lose me as I’ve never done this run before”. I never lost one and always felt sorry for them as I felt it was not a good way to learn any route especially one like ours which took around 7 hours. One of the station inspectors told me they could get around 140 coaches in the yard, to me it seemed they proved it on many summer Saturdays and as this was in the very early days of National white livery with many vehicles still in company colours it was a truly magnificent sight also of course there were many private company vehicles on relief journeys which added to the spectacle. Oh happy days.
Diesel Dave
08/09/12 – 07:31
I agree about the Weymann Fanfare, Ronnie.
David Oldfield
10/09/12 – 07:30
Ronnie and David, the Northern General Guy Arab LUFs with Weymann Fanfare bodies were my favourite coaches of all time – see half way down this page //sct61.org.uk
Peter Williamson
11/09/12 – 06:39
As you say on the other site, Peter, the Guy Weymann’s were extensively used on the Newcastle – Liverpool service and that was pre motorway era, so regardless of the route you took it involved a lot of up’s and downs on single carriageway roads, but it says a lot about the vehicles that they lasted as long as they did, reliability was never an issue but at times seating capacity was
Ronnie Hoye
27/05/14 – 14:00
I Remember it well driving my new 53 seater Ford with Plaxton body on dupe from Leicester to Cheltenham and ending up in Devon on service, Anyone out there remember the old Caff in Bridgewater open all night.
I Williams Ex N & S Travel
07/03/20 – 07:25
During the late fifties to mid sixties my family travelled at least once every year from Eastbourne to Cheltenham to stay with my Aunt and family. A seven to eight hour journey through every town and village from south to north west. I, as a child thought the older coaches were very comfortable, probably Guy’s. They left Eastbourne Southdown depot in a queue, Black and White coaches being a highlight of the trip. I remember coach drivers changing places by a complex arm link dance on the move. Pretty common for those days on long trips.
