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British European Airways – AEC Routemaster – NMY 641E

NMY 641E

British European Airways
1967
AEC Routemaster
Park Royal H32/24F

From 6 October 1957 until 1 January 1974, British European Airways operated a passenger transfer service between its West London Air Terminal at Cromwell Road, Kensington and Heathrow Airport. The rolling stock fleet was staffed and maintained by London Transport, and this was reflected in the vehicle types operated. By the 1960s, the increase in size of airliners meant that the BEA fleet of AEC Regal IV observation coaches of 1952/3 vintage were offering inadequate capacity, and were approaching replacement anyway. In 1961 an evaluation of the practicability of employing double deckers for the job was undertaken, initially using AEC Regent V, 220 CXK fitted with a Park Royal H38/17F body, the limited lower deck capacity arising from its adaptation to accommodate luggage in the rear portion. Between 1964-66, the 30 ft long front entrance Routemaster RM 1254 was tried out towing a separate luggage trailer, and this experiment was deemed to be successful. Thus, in 1966/67, BEA took delivery of 65 front entrance Routemasters of the shorter 27ft 8ins length with the slightly reduced seating of 56 to allow space for hand luggage at the rear of the lower deck. They had semi automatic gearboxes and AEC AV 590 engines, but were geared for 70 mph running with trailers on the M4 motorway, which would surely not be allowed today. Marshall constructed 88 luggage trailers so that the buses would not suffer luggage loading/unloading delays at the terminals. The Routemasters were delivered and initially operated in the traditional airline livery of blue and white, but, in 1969 the emerging distressing vogue for the use of orange in bus liveries gravely infected the BEA fleet. Mercifully, the merger of BEA and BOAC into British Airways in September 1973 saw the consignment of the execrable orange to oblivion with the restoration of a blue /white livery. The RMAs were progressively withdrawn from airport work from January 1975 until mid 1979, when the entire fleet of 65 was sold to London Transport, thereafter to suffer a curiously chequered, and somewhat wasteful career. In the photo taken at Heathrow in March 1972, orange adorned BEA 41, NMY 641E stands alongside BEA 32, NMY 632E. These vehicles were renumbered RMA 53 and 49 respectively on acquisition by London Transport in 1979. It is thought that both survive – somewhere!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

06/09/17 – 07:00

Not one vestige of luxury abounded these vehicles – just a normal inside. Not the way to start an air flight, even with non-Transatlantic flights.
Was there an equivalent BOAC system such as the one BEA operated here, or did one have to make one’s own way to Heathrow?

Chris Hebbron

06/09/17 – 09:19

BOAC operated some Metro-Cammell bodied Leyland Atlanteans during the 1960s between Buckingham Palace Road, London and Heathrow Airport. They were fitted with higher backed coach type seats more suitable to long-haul airline passengers.
Photographs may be seen here:
www.sct61.org.uk/zzlyf313d
www.sct61.org.uk/zzlyf311d 

David Slater

07/09/17 – 07:36

BOAC’s fleet pre-dated the Atlanteans and consisted of a fleet of single-deck vehicles, although I am not sure about the technical details. Unlike BEA, operations were not subcontracted to London Transport.

David Wragg

08/09/17 – 06:42

We have to remember the vogue for these colours in the 70’s- bright and striking and definitely non-traditional- a reaction against formal “liveries”. Having said that it was a bit dire!
What does seem naff is the choice of vehicle- high floor with perhaps a noisy transmission and speeds for which it was not really designed- with trailer! A Neoplan Skyliner type would be better- but a lot dearer and less patriotic?! Was luggage checked in at the city terminal- so why not just use a van?

Joe

09/09/17 – 06:41

Here is a shot of one of the Routemasters at the west London Air Terminal in 1969 in the original livery: www.flickr.com/photos/
At the same time BEA was still using the one an a half deck AEC Regal IVs from London Transport. they were new in 1953 and had Park Royal bodies.
BOAC also had their own fleet of vehicles which operated from their terminal close to Victoria Coach Station. In 1966 they acquired a fleet of Leyland Atlanteans with MCW bodies.

Stephen Bloomfield

09/09/17 – 06:42

Joe – I think you’ll find BOAC left Buckingham Palace Road in the early/mid 70s. My 1978 office looked out on to it and I can remember, at one point, it being used for South Western Services on peak days to relieve pressure on the Coach Station itself. In the days of much smaller coaches they were accommodated in the underground car park of the Coach Station but I feel we’re talking about an era far before Neoplans came on the scene with Trathens.

Nick Turner

10/09/17 – 06:38

Nick- the Skyliner is celebrating 50 years this year – would it have filled the bill?! So would the Atlantean or even Bristol VR but they weren’t Routemasters!

Joe

11/09/17 – 06:26

I bow to your knowledge, Joe, but I can recall when Trathens of Plymouth introduced them to their London – Exeter and Plymouth contract for the newly created ‘Rapide’ brand, they were billed as state of the art. Certainly new to the likes of me. They must have been in use elsewhere, I presume, but they’d certainly have done the job!

Nick Turner

11/09/17 – 06:28

The BEA Routemasters were fitted with AV690 175 bhp engines. In my opinion, these vehicles were the right ones for the job. They had well padded comfortable seats , superb suspension, were nimble and quiet (certainly no problem with transmission noise). They were also a reliable and proven design. The Atlantean may have looked better, but as a tool for the job, would have been inferior.

Allan White

11/09/17 – 06:32

I can vouch for the basic seating of these RM’s, plus also on the “smart” clippies that made a lot of money because arriving travellers had no sterling.

Stuart Emmet

11/09/17 – 09:07

Re: Joe’s question “Why not a van?”
Surely using a trailer made it much more likely that the luggage got on the same plane as the passengers.

John Lomas

12/09/17 – 06:39

Why not a van? Why not? One summer, I drove for a major London Operator – a cruise transfer from Central London to the Liner at the coast. American Tourists with huge amounts of luggage. How will I fit it all in? Oh, don’t worry, there will be a van for that. ….. and there was, a big curtain sided vehicle just for the luggage.

David Oldfield

12/09/17 – 06:41

Nick, Although launched in 1967, the first right-hand drive UK versions were in service in 1981.
Joe, Regarding a van: I was working in Cork in 1975 when the hotel was invaded by by a C.I.E. coach with 40+ American tourists doing the Irish heritage circuit. As they all had about 5 large suitcases, the coach was accompanied by a C.I.E. container wagon.

Dave Farrier

12/09/17 – 14:44

Regarding the trailer, it was seen as a simple, effective solution whereby passengers and luggage travelled together. Even in 1960s London traffic, a bus and a van could easily have become well separated and the essence of the operation was to check in passengers at Cromwell Rd and give a smooth transit at Heathrow for both passengers and luggage. Keeping them together was the key to this.
The RM was chosen because BEA had long used LT as its contractor and the RM was its current vehicle just as the Regal was the basis for the half deck coaches and LT’s RF in the 1950s. The shorter version of the RM was chosen as BEA Tridents, Vanguards and 1-11s in service by the late 1960s had seating capacities between 100 and 135. Based on experience of the split between passengers checking in at the airport and those using Cromwell Rd, 56 seats was deemed to be the most viable option allowing room inside for hand baggage. Outbound to Heathrow vehicles were assigned to specific flights with the luggage in the trailers going directly to the aircraft. There were enough vehicles for duplicates if necessary, but in practice this was rare. Inbound passengers picked the first available bus and trailer as they had to pick their luggage in arrivals and, if necessary, clear customs, so it was impossible to keep passengers from any given flight together. Buses departed for London either when full or after a predetermined time after the first passenger had boarded so as not to delay arrival in Cromwell Rd.
BOAC and TWA both successfully used Atlanteans with internal luggage space between city terminals in London and Heathrow. To say the Atlantean was inferior is a nonsense as BOAC re-ordered Atlanteans and TWA’s contract with Hall’s of Hounslow specified the Atlantean based on BOAC’s experience.

Phil Blinkhorn

13/09/17 – 06:34

As Allan White correctly states, these did have AV690 11.3 litre engines, though I suspect that they might have been de-rated a bit. This, however, raises an interesting point. If these powerful, very highly geared, fluid flywheel coupled double deckers could run regularly at high speeds without problems, why did the Halifax Lolines suffer such transmission trouble?

Roger Cox

14/09/17 – 06:53

Maybe something to do with the terrain

Roger Burdett

14/09/17 – 06:55

Forgive me for straying from the main subject to mention the problems with Halifax’s Lolines for a moment.
A mechanic (and also an enthusiast) at Halifax Corporation with first hand experience of dealing with their five Lolines once wrote a piece in the local bus club’s newsletter (and I am taking the liberty of quoting him here):
“The transmission was unusual in that there was a transfer box at the rear of the engine which altered the rotation of the propellor shaft and gearbox, but allowed the propellor shaft to run along the chassis side, thus permitting a low floor level.
The Dennis mechanic from their Manchester service depot spent so much time at Skircoat Garage that it began to be said he was on the payroll. He was an odd fellow in that he would not show anyone how to do the job or even let them see him working. If an HPT mechanic passed near him he would stop work and cover the job up………………..
…………….Mounted at the back of the engine was the fluid flywheel coupling driving into the transfer box. A major fault on this was a lack of ventilation around the flywheel and transfer box for cooling purposes. So the flywheel got hot, then hotter and hotter still until the oil within it boiled, leaked through and spoiled the oil retaining seal. Alternatively the same might happen to the transfer box. Whichever it was, it was expensive – for Dennis Bros. anyway!
The other main problem was the gearbox. Most gearboxes have the input and output shafts rotating the same way i.e. anticlockwise – the same as the engine – but the Lolines were different, they had to have non-standard clockwise rotating gearboxes which were almost impossible to obtain, as no-one else used them.
The verdict? It was a love/hate relationship. When they were healthy (and new) most drivers (only short men could drive them comfortably) seemed to like them, but when they were poorly the Lolines were unloved (and unlovely). My opinion? Best left unrepeated!”
I do remember being told his opinion – and it was indeed best left unrepeated!
I knew many Halifax drivers who had driven them and most agreed that as long as they were going they were great buses to drive (but then to many bus drivers of my acquaintance A Fast Bus=A Good Bus. The main complaint seemed to be that they didn’t like the driving position, with the raked steering wheel (i.e. different to what they were used to) and that the cab roof was too low and had a prominent section of trunking passing across it just above where the driver’s head would be, causing taller drivers to constantly be striking their heads on it. Otherwise they would have to lower the seat to the point where they had to adopt an uncomfortable posture.
Speaking purely as a passenger with enthusiast tendencies at the time, I thought they were marvellous vehicles. Even Hilditch later went on to imply that it was a shame at the time he sold them that he hadn’t known that his undertaking would shortly afterwards take over Todmorden JOC with its requirement for low-height double deckers – so even he must have still have harboured positive thoughts about them.
Could there have been a certain amount of pressure within the NBC/APT part of the JOC to help West Riding out with Wulfrunian replacements and slightly raise the age profile of the fleet with these comparatively new buses (considering all the older Lodekkas they were having to take on) and it just seemed like a good idea at the time – especially if they’d offered a good price for them ? Who knows ?

John Stringer

14/09/17 – 07:01

Dave – I now live 50 miles from Cork City and was actually there yesterday. I think the governing factor behind the CIE van in ’75 would have revolved around the fact that Ireland only established bespoke bus/coach licences comparatively recently. With trailers already a reality, anyone being tested without a trailer on the back of the vehicle would have received a simple ‘D’ entitlement. Now, old fogeys like me, as long as we took our tests on a decker with manual box, would be entitled to an ‘All Types PSV’ which was literally converted to ‘D+E’ when trailers became recognised.
When I arrived here in 2007, and not being averse to a few extra Euros in my pocket, I spotted an ad in the local paper for D+E Drivers to drive a tourist road train round a local town. I got the job and found the other, main driver was also English. Any Irish drivers had worked in the UK where they, too, got an old ‘All Types’ licence but actual native D+E licences were as rare as hen’s teeth and I’m suspecting CIE had no option but to use a separate vehicle if they had no D+E drivers.

Nick Turner

15/09/17 – 06:37

An enlightening posting, John. However, several batches of Lodekkas had the SCG semi auto four/five speed gearbox, and this driveline must have incorporated a step down box in the transmission, reversing the direction of rotation, unless an intermediate cog was used to turn it back the “right” way. Does anyone on here know anything about the Bristol/SCG setup? As for the Dennis engineer’s singular secrecy, perhaps he was out of his depth himself, and didn’t want the customer to witness his struggles. The Lodekka/Loline driving position issue is often debated, and surely comes down to a matter of familiarity – the unusual is generally unpopular with bus drivers (enthusiast types like us are exceptions, of course). All I can say is that I liked it.

Roger Cox

15/09/17 – 06:39

The Routemaster, having a conventional height chassis and the gearbox remotely mounted towards the back axle, has much more room for cooling air to flow around it. Unlike the Loline which hasn’t. That could have also been a factor.I assume, because of constraints of space under the chassis, the Loline and the Lodekka had their semi auto gearboxes close coupled to the engine, under the stairs, where air flow over them would be even more restricted. Maybe it would have been kinder in retrospect, to have ripped the semi auto boxes out and retro fitted them with constant mesh units. Although, given the hilly terrain of Halifax, that may have created more problems than answers.
It would be interesting to know how the West Riding Auto Co. got on with their acquired Lolines. Maybe someone out there knows. Regarding the Dennis fitter. If you are called upon to solve a problem, but are mainly used to working on refuse disposal vehicles and not too sure how to go about working on a bus and its added complications, it must be tempting to avoid public scrutiny, retain an air of mystique, and hide what you are doing from people, who you feel may know far more than you do. But I bet the Lolines must have given him many sleepless nights! Regarding the reversal of drive through the transfer box into the gearbox on a Loline/Lodekka reminds me of a story. In the mid 1970s the Northern General Transport Group, found themselves short of serviceable vehicles, which prompted them to acquire a number of ex Crosville Bristol LD6Bs. It was not long however before the driving staff were complaining about their low power Bristol AVW engines and slow change constant mesh ‘boxes. In an attempt to remedy this the engineering staff successfully managed to fit a Leyland 0600 engine into one of these Lodekkas. However they must have forgotten about the transfer box and its reversal of drive, as they ended up with one forward and five reverse gears. Under those circumstances I do not know whether you would be tempted to laugh or cry!

John Anderson

15/09/17 – 06:40

The lack of DE licences in Eire might have been a factor in 2007, but surely not in ’75 when Dave saws the CIE container.
D and DE categories only came into being in June 1990 before that HGV and PSV licences were separate documents.

John Lomas

16/09/17 – 06:51

My reasoning, John, is that, whereas I’m told the UK introduced bespoke PSV licences in 1931, it could have been well into the ’70s before they were brought in in Ireland and, if they were already aware that trailers existed, there MAY have been some sort of exclusion written into them. I honestly don’t know, so it could have simply been that CIE didn’t have vehicles with tow hooks or trailers to put on them.
As something of a side issue, I remember petrol companies advertising for tanker drivers with a note ‘PSV drivers preferred’ because, in those days, you could drive 5,000 gallons of petrol around on a car licence.

Nick Turner

16/09/17 – 06:52

Roger Burdett’s comment about terrain deserves further exploration. The BEA Routemasters were dedicated to one service which involved sustained high-speed running, without, I imagine, a lot of gear changing. I wonder also if perhaps they had dedicated drivers. The Halifax Lolines were purchased for a long-distance contract, but were also used on local work in hilly terrain, for which their gearing must have been wildly unsuitable.
Drivers switching between high and low geared vehicles do not always make the necessary adjustment in driving style. I certainly experienced this every evening going home from work in Bristol, when a cascaded RELH was allocated to one trip on a service otherwise worked by RELLs. None of the drivers seemed to know what to do with it, and the transmission must have suffered significant punishment from being in too high a gear most of the time.

Peter Williamson

17/09/17 – 06:50

A few observations about the operation of the BEA and later BA Routemasters.
Whilst geared for high speed running, the first 4.4 miles from the Cromwell Rd Terminal to the end of the M4 was through London Traffic which, even in the early days of the service, could be very slow. The motorway sector to the airport was just over 9.5 miles but though the vehicles could attain 70 mph, they rarely did. From personal observation regularly driving that stretch of the M4 between 1967 and 1976 and, from time to time using the service, 50-60 mph was the norm, as traffic permitted on the motorway sector.
The first trailers were built by Marshalls. With different baggage limits in those days, a full bus could be pulling a fully laden trailer with a gross weight of 2 tons. The trailers were replaced in 1973 when check in was moved to the airport.

Phil Blinkhorn

17/09/17 – 06:51

The semi-automatic Lodekka had its gearbox amidship, there being a raised cover beneath one of the offside pairs of seats. The Loline, I am not sure about, but a photograph of the flywheel and step down gear cover in “A Further Look At Buses” (G.G.Hilditch) shows that, next in line, is a U/J and shaft, thereby implying a remote gearbox.

Allan White

18/09/17 – 07:25

This has turned into a most fascinating thread: Front entrance Routemasters v Atlanteans; trailers v vans; BEA livery variations; Halifax Lolines; Loline and Lodekka transmission differences. Wonderful stuff and all grist to the mill.
John(S), I enjoyed reading your comments regarding the semi-auto Dennnis Lolines and how and why they performed as they did (or didn’t!) at Halifax. Roger(C), you may well have hit the nail on the head with your point about the Dennis fitter being out of his depth with the foibles of the semi-auto Loline, hence his secrecy – or could he have held the view that “knowledge is power” and didn’t want to share it? Fortunately most manufacturers’ technicians I came into contact with were generally very helpful in troubleshooting, problem solving, offering advice and giving useful tips, but as the saying goes, “there’s always one”.
Relating to Lodekka gearboxes, the design of the manual gearbox was quite clever. Most gearboxes on a conventional chassis of the time would have the input and output shafts on the same plane, rotating in the same direction, with a layshaft running underneath allowing the various gears to be selected. With the Lodekka having a dropped-centre rear axle and consequently requiring a lower transmission line to match up with it, the drive from the rear of the engine had to be taken down to a lower level in order to mate up with the prop shaft. Bristol did this in effect by using the gearbox layshaft as an output shaft. The input shaft remained at the usual level, but the layshaft beneath now became the output shaft, giving the required drop for the transmission line. (The engine also sloped down slightly to the rear and across slightly to the offside to assist with this). However, by utilising the layshaft in this way, the direction of drive from the output end was reversed, but as the dropped-centre rear axle took the drive from the lower level back up to wheel-centre level by means of an extra gear, the correct rotation of drive to the wheels was restored. Simples! (I do hope all this makes some sense).
The manual gearbox was bolted onto the rear of the engine.
On rear entrance Lodekkas it was partly beneath the rearward facing seat for five behind the front bulkhead, whereas on front entrance models there was a small protruding cover on the front bulkhead at floor level to accommodate the shape of the gearbox. When semi-automatic transmission became an option on the front entrance Lodekka in late 1966 (the last year of rear-entrance Lodekka production), the semi-auto gearbox was squarer and a little bulkier than the manual version, and couldn’t be mounted in the usual position. Bristol solved the problem by mounting the semi-auto ‘box remotely under the floor partway down the offside of the chassis. (Locating the semi-auto ‘box under the stairs was not really an option, as on F-series Lodekkas that position was taken up by the fuel tank). As Allan mentions, a shallow cover under a pair of seats on the offside gave the game away as to the transmission type. In order to bring the drive down from fluid flywheel to prop shaft level, Bristol used a pair of transfer gears behind the fluid flywheel, which gave rise to the distinctive transmission whine of the semi-auto FLFs.
I am unfamiliar with the transmission layout of the semi-auto Loline, but it sounds like it may have been similar in principle to that of the semi-auto Lodekka. Peter, you may be on to something regarding Roger(B)’s comment about terrain being a factor in the Lolines’ reliability problems. Presumably they would have had higher ratio rear axles for their higher speed duties, but which would have made them sluggish on town work. Does anyone know if West Riding considered fitting lower ratio diffs to improve reliability and performance or had they settled down by then on suitable routes? Also, does anyone know of any problems encountered with the semi-auto FLFs, and if so, what were the remedies?

Brendan Smith

21/09/17 – 06:34

The statement by Geoffrey Hilditch in in his book “A Further Look At Buses” suggesting that the five speed gearboxes of the Halifax Lolines were unique to the batch was certainly true when the vehicles were delivered, as the semi auto version of the FLF Lodekka was still several months in the future. However, Dennis had pioneered a four speed semi automatic transmission option right at the beginning of Loline III production in 1961, when it supplied a solitary example to Belfast, and built another for the China Bus Company. A year later the semi auto demonstrator EPG 179B appeared. It must be the case, therefore, that the semi automatic drive line, including the step down gear train, was designed by Dennis. The step down gearing must have been quite costly to produce, particularly since only three examples were made up to the delivery of the five Halifax Lolines in February/March 1967. The Halifax order was preceded by a batch of eight (constant mesh) buses to Reading in December 1966 which marked the resumption of Loline production after a gap of no less than 13 months. These Reading Lolines were fitted with the Bristol gearbox and rear axle, whereas all previous Lolines had Dennis’s own gearbox and axle options. The Halifax Lolines also had Bristol rear axles. By late 1966 it must have been apparent to the Guildford firm that the limited future demand for the Loline did not justify the resumption of manufacturing penny numbers of its own gears and axles when entirely suitable Bristol components could be bought off the shelf. One wonders, then – did Dennis really retain all the casting/tooling equipment from five years previously just to manufacture a mere five more of the complicated step down gear train behind the flywheel, which surely cannot have been a cost effective exercise for Dennis. We know that there was contact between Dennis and Bristol during the Loline production period. Did Dennis subsequently make the step down gears for Bristol, or did the Guildford firm, perhaps, sell/pass on its design work and tooling to Bristol for its own semi auto version of the Lodekka? If only we knew for certain.

Roger Cox

22/09/17 – 07:11

Roger – Your mention of The China Bus Co (Hong Kong?) reminds me that that was the destination for the Southdown Guys (Arab IVs) when they were eventually pensioned off, but one modification they underwent for service there was some form of auto or semi auto gearbox, much to the disgust of most of us. Does this tie in in any way with your last post?

Nick Turner

27/09/17 – 06:16

Where did the problem with the Halifax Lolines transmission lie? Was it the fluid coupling, gearbox, back axle or all three, does anyone know.
Eastern National’s semi auto FLF coaches must have been high geared also, although their operating territory flatter than Halifax.
I would have thought that as Dennis presumably owned the the tooling for the step down gears they would supply Bristol, if an apropriate price could be be negotiated. But its little more than a guess.

John Anderson

24/10/17 – 06:51

Even today “airline” luggage presents problems for coach operations. For many years I was involved in dealing with moving passengers from flights by road and each task had to be looked at specifically. A 49 seat coach could often only carry around 25 passengers because of the weight and amount of passengers baggage and it really depended on the airline and the destination/origin on the passengers concerned. We used trailers and even drafted in Pickfords on occasions. For one task we undertook to move an entire cruise from Liverpool Docks by road to Southampton. For this job we drafted in a large number of Pickfords pantechnicons to carry the luggage as it was so much easier. Luggage was sorted into appropriate vehicles prior to loading and was delivered to the right points on the quay for immediate loading. Meanwhile some 40 coaches moved all the passengers without problem as the nightmare of baggage had been removed!

Bill Headley

26/01/19 – 06:42

In response to John Anderson, one particular feature of the Halifax Lolines that was a cause for trouble was that it was not a ‘pure’ fluid flywheel but the type with a lock up clutch: to paraphrase the late GGH, this was to give engine braking, but if done wrongly engine breaking is what happened.

Stephen Allcroft

07/10/19 – 07:12

This picture now appears in an intriguing little book published by https://www.safehavenbooks.co.uk  called ‘Seats of London’ by Andrew Martin, best known as the author of a series of novels about a Victorian railway detective, and also as the presenter of some informed (as distinct from ‘celebrity’ auto cue fronted) television programmes on railway subjects. It covers in great detail the many varied moquettes that have graced the seats of London’s trains, trams, buses and trolleybuses for over a century, and is a fascinating look into a hitherto unresearched world. Within Andrew Martin makes some references to Old Bus Photos, which he describes as, ‘an excellent website that does what it says on the tin’.

Roger Cox

London Transport – AEC Routemaster – CUV 308C – RML 2308

London Transport - AEC Routemaster - CUV 308C - RML 2308

London Transport
1965
AEC Routemaster
Park Royal H40/32R

OBP seems yet to have a picture of Routemasters in the Country Area livery, so here is one. RML 2308, delivered to London Transport in November 1965, is seen at Biggin Hill in the following year. These green buses, which totalled one hundred in two batches of fifty, RML 2306- 2355 in 1965 and RML 2411 -2460 in 1966, were all powered by the AEC AV590 engine de-rated to 115bhp, the same setting used in the earlier RT type, though the RML was 5cwt heavier. Semi automatic gearboxes were fitted rather than the fully automatic variety used in the Central Bus Routemaster fleet. The 410 ran between Bromley and Reigate on an hourly headway, with intervening “short” journeys between Bromley and Biggin Hill; the picture above shows RML 2308 operating such a “short”. Because of a low railway bridge near Oxted station, the 410 route was run for many years by lowbridge double deckers, notably by the “Godstone” STLs ((Godstone being the operating garage) and then by the RLH class (20 diverted Regent IIIs from a Midland General order for 30, and a further 56 built for LT). In the early 1960s LT(CB&C) yearned to standardise the Godstone fleet on RTs, and became impatient about the delays to the promised lowering of the roadway beneath the Oxted bridge. I was then a clerk in the South Divisional Office at Reigate, and pointed out that the offending bridge could be circumnavigated easily via Station Road East, then under the high bridge on the A25, and back into Oxted via East Hill Road. This solution was eagerly leapt upon, and RTs replaced the Godstone RLH fleet in November 1964. This allowed full interworking of the routes 409 (West Croydon – Godstone – Forest Row) 410 (Bromley – Godstone – Reigate) and 411 West Croydon – Godstone – Reigate). When the roadway under the Oxted Station bridge was ultimately lowered some time later, the 410 reverted to its original route. The LT Country Bus business passed to the National Bus Company in January 1970 under the name London Country. In 1978, with Routemaster mechanical spares becoming akin to hens teeth, and London Transport snapping up such parts as did become available, the entire London Country RML fleet was sold to LT, who repainted most of the vehicles red for service in London, though RMLs 2306, 2337, 2417, 2420, 2421, 2423, 2424, 2425, 2426, 2427, 2433, 2436, 2438, 2448, 2449, 2458 and 2459 were immediately scrapped for spares. In the early 1990s LT replaced all the original power plants in the survivors with Iveco and Cummins engines, RM 2308 suffering the inflicted indignity of a Cummins motor in 1993. It continued to serve London Transport until its withdrawal in March 2004.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

02/12/19 – 06:37

In actual fact, the Central London RM’s and RML’s had an either/or gearbox.
If top gear was selected when stationary, the bus would be in automatic mode, however, the driver had the option of driving them as a semi auto, and changing gear manually.
Unless fully loaded, or pulling away uphill, second was usually selected to pull away.
It may well be that in later life they were all converted to fully auto, but they weren’t when new.

Ronnie Hoye

02/12/19 – 09:46

The Central Bus Routemasters had fully automatic gearboxes with manual over-ride, a feature of auto boxes that continued into the later age of buses with auto transmissions by ZF and Allison, though not with the (dreadful) three speed Voith. Nowadays it seems that this feature has gone for buses, and the driver’s only over-ride option is kick-down. The Country area RMCs, RMLs and RCLs were semi auto only.

Roger Cox

03/12/19 – 06:30

I don’t know if its the way they’re set up, but some buses are awful. They seem to snatch when they change up, and lurch when changing down. The poor driver always gets the blame, but in reality there’s not a lot He/She can do about it.
Driver properly, a bus with a manual box, be it three pedals or semi auto, will always give a smoother ride than an automatic.

Ronnie Hoye

03/12/19 – 06:32

I had the pleasure, until recently, when prevented by ill health, of being a regular driver of RML 2440 a refurbished and re-engined bus – owned by Peter Cartwright. This most definitely was of the Fully automatic type. The coaches were semi-auto only – RMC and RCL.

David Oldfield

03/12/19 – 09:15

RML 2440 was sold by LCBS to London Transport in June 1979. It then went into Aldenham for conversion to LT specifications, including the addition of full auto operation of the gearbox before entering service as a red bus. In ‘Country’ service it was semi auto only.

Roger Cox

06/12/19 – 06:51

Your suggestion, Roger, about avoiding the low bridge at Oxted, which presumably was not greatly disadvantageous to passengers, is typical of a situation whereby nobody thinks of a solution for decades and it’s staring them in the face!
It certainly seems odd to my eyes in seeing a bus routed for 410 which is not lowbridge. I’m sure I’ve said before that the unique lowbridge STL’s (always with their sliding doors open, to avoid being illegal) would appear from time to time at Morden to cover overhauls of the lowbridge red D’s on the 127 and latterly lowbridge Tilling Bristol K’s, sometimes green and sometimes red!
With the ex-Romford Green Line D’s coming to Merton Garage, which took a while to repaint them into red, pre-war RT’s on the 93 and Maidstone Corporation Daimler CWG6’s, Morden Station’s Forecourt was was a real hotchpotch of colour, types and companies. Wonderful!

Chris Hebbron

08/12/19 – 06:18

There is a lot of truth in what Chris says, especially in large organisations. People become blinkered, because things have always been done in a certain way. A new employee with fresh set of eyes can often reveal new ways of doing things, that no one has previously thought of. It’s all a bit like the Hans Christian Aderson’s “The King’s New Suit of Clothes”. Send for Danny Kaye!

Mr Anon

09/12/19 – 06:25

Ah, Danny Kaye. I always recall “The Court Jester” – The constant muddling up of “The pellet with the poison’s in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!” Classic!

Chris Hebbron

09/12/19 – 12:20

Chris, if memory serves the quote from Danny Kaye went something like,
“The flagon with the dragon is the chalice with the malice, the vessel with the pestle is the brew that is true”. How do I remember that?

Stan Zapiec

09/12/19 – 16:27

Here is the script gents
//www.irossco.com/comedy/poem10.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzmnSyqv37A

John Lomas

13/12/19 – 12:17

Wonderful stuff. Dedicated to everyone, who has been to the shops on behalf of their partner, then come back with completely the wrong thing.

Mr Anon

West Bridgford – AEC Renown – BRR 241C – 41

West Bridgford - AEC Renown - BRR 241C - 41

West Bridgford Urban District Council 
1965
AEC Renown
East Lancs H44/31F

Not many Urban District Council’s had there own bus concern but West Bridgford which is on the outskirts of Nottingham was one of them. The council started the bus service to connect to the Nottingham tram system which did not get as far as West Bridgford in 1913. It is a shame how it all ended for West Bridgford Urban District Council but they had to save money because of a drop off in passengers and tried to introduce one man operation with three AEC Swifts. Unfortunately the union would not go along with it so they decided to cut there losses and sell to Nottingham Corporation in 1968.
There is a very interesting historic article regarding West Bridgford Urban District Council transport here on the website of Peter Gould.

Just browsing the internet and I find a great piece of nostalgia. I lived in Nottingham in the 50s/60s and I definitely would have travelled on this bus many times.
The photo is taken at the old Broad Marsh bus station, which at that time was situated on an area of flattened land following the demolition of old Victorian back-to-back terraced houses. Note the red of several old Barton buses/coaches in the background. They shared the bus station, along with South Notts and Nottingham Corporation Transport.
The bus shows route number 68 to Clifton (where I lived) via Trent Bridge, which was a joint operation with South Notts and Nottingham Corporation Transport.

KC

This takes me back to when I was a young lad about 14 West Bridgford Urban District Council ran a free service from Clifton to the supermarket advertised on the side of the above bus “Gem” which is where Asda is now.
I used to travel a lot to Gem on this service with my mum, and I used to use the service some times as a way of getting into town for free.

Andrew

Great images of a much lamented and long departed fleet. Just one small, probably nit-picking, comment – West Bridgford has no “e” in it.

Neil Woodcock

Looking at the photo again, I definitely travelled on that bus many times as a kid because I’ve noticed something on it which used to intrigue me even then. Look at the entrance area; there is a metal pole in the middle running full height. I always assumed that was added at a later stage, to deal with some distorting or bodywork rigidity problem.
Or was it always designed to be there?

KC

This looks like a very modern bus, most of the fleet were very old, we called them “Wessers” I lived in Clifton 1953 – 68 and often caught one of the wrecks into Nottingham. When you waited at one of the stops in Clifton, everyone groaned when one of these dinosaurs turned up! Because they had to use the Wilford route they were very low, to get under the railway bridge, and the upstairs was ok if you were a midget! the gangway was sunken into the floor at one side and the seats were “fourers”.
Happy days!

Stuart Wisher

I also took this bus between Clifton and Nottingham and to Gem Supermarket many times. I agree with what Stew Wisher says – I’d forgotten about little details – for example how people would groan when they saw an old bus coming going by the long route via Wilford Lane. By the way – I remember Stew Wisher from Fairham! I lived in Clifton on Bainton Grove between 1953 and 1976. I have now been living in Rabat, Morocco for many years – you should see the buses here!

James Gould

Until Clifton Bridge over thee Trent opened (in 1958 I think) all Clifton services ran via Wilford Lane, as Stewart and James will remember. It was a tri-partite joint service with Nottingham City Transport, South Notts and WBUDC, so all were running lowbridge buses. When the estate was first built about 1950 NCT (who until that time had no lowbridge buses and only a very small fleet of single deckers) bought a few second hand Utilities from somewhere “up north” as a stop-gap. About 1953 they bought 10 new AEC Regent IIIs with Park Royal lowbridge bodies (SAU 199-208). Later when the new bridge was opened, the NCT share of the routes was diverted that way with full height double deckers from the brand new fleet of Leyland PD2/40s (1 ATO-45 ATO). Interestingly, for many years afterwards the route numbers remained common to all three operators (61, 61A, 66, 67 and 68) even though the NCT share took a different route to the city.

Stephen Ford

07/03/11 – 09:27

The AEC Renown photo flummoxed me because I lived on Eltham Road in West Bridgford from 1947 until after the demise of WBUDC buses in 1968, and this was near to the entrance to the depot, so I saw dozens of their buses every day on their way in and out. I cannot remember EVER seeing such a bus! I was very familiar with the fleet, including the low roof jobs used on the Wilford Lane route to Clifton. In addition my mother was a clippie during the war years, and my uncle Bill Whitten was a driver throughout the 50’s and early 60’s. I just cannot reconcile the photo with my memories. I rode probably thousands of times on the 14 and 21 routes too, and again the photo means nothing. Quite a mystery, and I wonder if it was a one-off purchase that was not retained….

Brian Marshall

08/03/11 – 06:11

Peter Gould’s site, referred to above, has a fleet list as well as a historical article. There were two Renowns, 41 and 42 purchased 4/65. They passed with the rest of the fleet to Nottingham 9/68, where they were renumbered 393 and 394.

Peter Williamson

05/06/11 – 14:30

The West Bridgford fleet was a good fleet even the oldest members being well looked after .when NCT took over the buses, the ones that were kept ran well and used all over the system I know because I worked in WBUDC workshops I started as a tyre fitter at WBUDC in 1959 then driving for NCT then back to Bridgford in 1967 as a tyre fitter till take over to NCT 1968

John Turton

05/12/11 – 06:26

As a lad growing up in WB in the early to late 1940s I remember all the old WBUDC buses. They seemed to have only one, two or three of each type. I don’t know the technical details but some registration numbers come back to me such as ARR 831 and 832, FNN 101-3, and there were two even older buses usually kept at the back of the Depot on Abbey Road which were included in NCT’s stock after the takeover. One of them is illustrated in John Banks/GHF Atkins books on Nottingham City Transport which are full of nostalgia. I think that at some stage I must have travelled on every WBUDC route apart from perhaps the No.12 (Seymour Road). Does anybody know if any WBUDC buses were saved?

Alan Rose

08/12/11 – 06:41

The only preserved ex-West Bridgford vehicle I’m aware of is no.24, CCX 777, the ex-Huddersfield Daimler CWA6. But despite having spent longer with West Bridgford than it did with Huddersfield, it has never carried West Bridgford livery in preservation.

Peter Williamson

08/12/11 – 15:35

I don’t know if it still exists, but certainly up to 1995 WBUDC 21 (ORR 140) was preserved. This was one of the lowbridge manual gearbox AEC Regent IIIs with Willowbrook body, bought by the UDC in 1954. Does anyone know of its whereabouts (or fate)?

Stephen Ford

08/12/11 – 15:37

Peter There is a second ex West Bridgford bus in preservation, 21 (ORR 140), one of the pair of lowbridge Willowbrook bodied Regent IIIs new in 1954.
It is preserved in WB livery and was active in the 70s and early 80s. I understand an extensive renovation has recently been completed, so hopefully it may be out and about again soon.

Bob Gell

11/12/11 – 11:22

Thank you both. I regard WBUDC as having had one of the best of municipal liveries, and it would be good to see it in the metal again.

Peter Williamson

11/12/11 – 16:53

There’s a picture, now about forty years old, of WBUDC 21 next to the Huddersfield (ex-WBUDC) utility, taken I think at a Rochdale Motorcade. It is in my Pikfu gallery, having been on Fotopic until they went under. As Pikfu is still very much under development I have no control over the watermark, which is a bit obtrusive. It can be found at: //davidbeilby.pikfu.net

David Beilby

11/10/12 – 15:59

I remember the AEC Renown appearing with South Wales in the early 1960s. There were two batches – the first by Park Royal, and the later ones by Willowbrook. They worked on routes formerly operated by either low height regents or Bridgemasters.
There was one unique Renown. Local operator West Wales bought one, Willowbrook bodied and resplendent in a grey livery with red trim, to operate on the joint service from Swansea to Llandeilo.
South Wales also had ten of the former six wheel single decker Renowns – they survived until about 1955.

Mark Lee Inman

13/10/12 – 06:31

Mark, according to BBF18 the first batch of South Wales Renowns were the first in service anywhere.

Peter Williamson

14/10/12 – 14:40

ORR140_lr

There is mention above of the preserved AEC Regent III/Willowbrook ORR140. This photo was taken at the AEC Rally in May of this year, showing its current condition.

Bob Gell

31/10/12 – 17:35

It would seem the biggest user of the Bridgemaster was Western Welsh taking 31 in all. They also had three Renowns delivered in 1965 part of a batch of 28. Thankfully WW did not have any of the frightful front entrance Bridgemasters that S Wales received from Park Royal. They were frightful! The WW Renowns had very smart Northern Counties bodywork.

Mark Lee Inman

02/11/13 – 17:50

I have just read the extremely interesting details on your Nottingham page from Michael Elliott regarding the vehicle allocations between NCT South Notts and WBUDC on the Clifton services. Please could anyone out there tell me how many vehicles of each fleet were allocated to the West Bridgford town services.

David Beardsell

03/11/13 – 08:52

Talking of Renowns, could anyone confirm which were two-pedal (i.e. monocontrol)? ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ only gives two as 3B2RA (the ‘King Alfred’ ones) but it is my understanding that there were a further eight – these two West Bridgford, the five Wolverhampton, and the prototype 8071ML. Can anyone confirm? Surprisingly, ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ doesn’t mention either of the prototypes.
An interesting thing about the Nottingham/West Bridgford Renowns – the operator buying the most Renowns new was City Of Oxford (43), but the operator running the most altogether was Nottingham (44 – the 42 bought new, and the two ex-West Bridgford).

David Call

03/11/13 – 08:54

David B, the only true town services that WBUDC operated were routes 1 and 2 run at school times (to the Grammar School I think) from different parts of WB – so probably one vehicle each, as they were converging on the school at the same time. All of the other WBUDC services were joint operations with NCT to Nottingham South Parade (which is the south side of the Old Market Square). The route numbers (excluding Clifton) were 11, 12, 14, 15, 15A, 21 and 24. I don’t know the vehicle split on those routes. It always seemed about 50/50. Maybe Michael will be able to come in with vehicle numbers. South Notts played no part in these operations – only the Clifton services. Clifton was a strange case, because until Clifton Bridge was opened in 1958, the only route from Nottingham to Clifton estate (which was part of the city) was over Trent Bridge and through West Bridgford, who therefore demanded a slice of the action. It appears to have been quite an acrimonious wrangle before the traffic commissioners.

Stephen Ford

12/11/13 – 06:15

David B/Stephen,
The NCT/WBUDC Joint Operation Agreements (the original of 15/9/27 and the subsequent agreement, when services were extended from Grey Friar Gate to the Old Market Square, dated 30/6/30)provided for an equal split of vehicles between the two operators.
I have some details of the split between the two operators as the situation was in 1968. For the 15/15a the split at Monday to Friday peak periods was two buses each, with the off peak/evening Monday to Friday split being one bus each. On Sunday the split was one bus each. On Saturdays the split was two buses each during the day with one bus each during the evening. So a 50/50 split here.
For the 21 I only have information for the Monday to Friday operation. The split for Monday to Friday peak operation was West Bridgford five buses and NCT four buses. The inter peak period appears to be West Bridgford three buses to NCT’s one (but NCT provided the three extra buses required for the mid day peak service). During the evening three buses were required with the split being West Bridgford two to NCT’s one.
During Monday to Friday evenings services 11/12/14/24 inter worked with a 30 minute headway on each service worked by five buses. The split was NCT three buses and West Bridgford two buses. The morning and afternoon peak service on services 11/12/14/24 required a total of 18 buses, with the inter peak service requiring eight buses. Additional buses would have been needed for the mid day peak.
The total WBUDC Monday to Friday peak vehicle requirement was 23 vehicles during the morning peak and 24 during the afternoon peak. The morning total was made up of five buses on Cliftons, two on the West Bridgford schools service which leaves 16 for the joint services. Given that two buses were on the 15/15a and five on the 21, the remaining nine were on services 11/12/14/24. The afternoon peak required 24 buses because of the additional bus on Cliftons with the other totals unchanged. An additional bus was required for the GEM ‘free bus’ during the afternoon peak when this was in operation (Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, I think).
David C – as far as I am aware there were ten ‘two pedal’ Renowns (model 3B2RA). These were the demonstrator 8071 ML, the two ‘King Alfred’s’ 595/596 LCG, the two West Bridgfords

Michael Elliott

16/11/13 – 11:00

A big thank you to Michael Elliott and Stephen Ford for the above information. Although I have lived in West Bridgford all my life and taken a keen interest in WB buses I have not paid much attention to the actual services. This interest was sparked off by the acquisition of a mint condition 1956 WBUDC timetable book at the Sandtoft gathering this July. This reminded me of another long forgotten artefact which I have hidden away. One day when walking home from Rushcliffe School in the late 1970’s I was passing the old green metal bus shelter on Melton Road which used to stand near the end of Devonshire Road. I noticed the corner of something sticking out from behind the NCT timetable case, I pulled it out to reveal a sheet of varnished plywood with the old WBUDC timetable pasted to it, needless to say it was spirited away.
Next year is the centenary of motor buses in West Bridgford, and I gather that NCT intend to paint a bus in the old maroon and deep cream to commemorate this, I think it looks likely to be Scania Omnidekka 955 as this has not been repainted in Bridgford Bus green livery like its sisters 952-954. There are already posters displayed inside these buses with a basic timeline of the history.

David Beardsell

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

22/11/13 – 08:08

David C – as far as I am aware there were ten “two pedal” Renowns (model 3B2RA). These were the demonstrator 8071 ML, the two “King Alfred’s” 595/596 LCG, the two West Bridgford’s BRR 241/242C and five Wolverhampton’s HJW 182-186D. Some general sources on AEC Renowns quote the Wolverhampton’s as model 3B3RA but other sources dealing with Wolverhampton quote them as 3B2RA, which fits in with Wolverhampton’s preference for ‘two pedal’ control Guy Arabs.

Michael Elliott

Leigh Corporation – AEC Renown – PTC 114C – 15

Leigh Corporation AEC Renown

Leigh Corporation
1965
AEC Renown
East Lancs H41/31F

I think but I’m not over sure, but was the Renown to take over from the Bridgemaster does anybody know. This wasn’t the first time the Renown name had been used by AEC in the late 20s early 30s there was a six-wheeled chassis called the Renown. It would appear that the chassis was used for both double or single deck vehicles.

Picture here of a double decker (scroll down to first b/w picture).
Picture here of a single decker.

The Renown was a replacement for the Bridgemaster. The big problem with the former was that it was of integral construction, which at that time was unacceptable to just about every operator of any significance. In fact by the time the Renown emerged everybody was moving to Atlanteans and Fleetlines, so that was a flop as well!

Yet two more AEC dead-ends, to rank with the ‘Q’ the Regent IV and the Monocoach!

David A Jones

I remember that when AEC announced its intention to build the Renown, the shrinking market for front-engined buses was recognised, and it was intended that the new model should replace the full-height Regent V as well as the low-height Bridgemaster.  Quite why that didn’t happen I don’t know for certain, but in view of the Renown’s reputation for being over-engineered, I would imagine that production costs made it impossible to sell it at a price competitive with other full-height models. 

However, full-height Renowns were built in small numbers for Leicester, Nottingham and Wolverhampton corporations, the low floor being used to give greater headroom for passengers.

Peter Williamson

I’ve ridden a time or two on this preserved Leigh Renown vehicle and it is in very fine order indeed. I may be wrong, but I think I heard that it was involved in an unfortunate “shunt” recently on one of the Manchester Museum open days.
Quite apart from any mechanical or other difficulties I think that the lack of sales for the model can largely be summed up in three words – “One Person Operation” – it probably arrived on the market several years too late.

Chris Youhill

14/07/12 – 10:48

I have just found a brilliant facsimile of a Leigh Corporation Guy Arab model bus on EFE Models of Loughborough models, website based here in Derby.
From what I remember of the pre selnec days, I don’t think that the manufacturer has captured the original dark blue. Never the less its good to see that a model has at last seen the light of day.

Duncan N Smith

16/09/12 – 06:59

Looks like the model livery is correct. Leigh buses were light blue until a livery change in 1948. More details if you want them in the book ‘The Leyland Buses of Leigh Corporation’ Published by the Leyland Society and authored by Ron Phillips.

Frank Taylor

12/03/14 – 07:36

Oh how I remember with delight, the diversity of the Leigh Corporation fleet. I moved from London to the village of Glazebury, just outside of Leigh in the mid 1960,s and travelled daily into Leigh to work. My favourite bus was the A.E.C. Renown with it’s powerful sounding engine. My favourite journey, on the Renown, was the no.26 from Leigh to Manchester, especially if I managed to acquire an upstairs seat at the front. Another memory from those days is the TIM ticket machine, of which, I have several in my collection, including a 1930’s Leigh Corporation machine. Now resident near Plymouth, I am a member of Plymouth City Transport Preservation Group.

Eric Mansfield

Rotherham Corporation – AEC Renown – 5588 ET – 88

Rotherham Corporation AEC Renown

Rotherham Corporation
1964
AEC Renown 3B3RA
Roe H39/31F

There has also been a 1961 Rotherham Corporation Bridgemaster on site (link here) and the easy way to tell them apart was the front off side mudguard. It is easier to show than describe so the close up on the left is the Renown and the one on the right is the Bridgemaster.

          
As you can see the Renown’s mudguard follows through the body where as the Bridgemaster’s body goes over the mudguard and this was always the case with these two buses.
This Renown has the AEC code of 3B3RA which meant it had an AEC 9.6 litre six cylinder engine with a 4 speed synchromesh gearbox and air brakes. There was only one alternative the 3B2RA and the only difference was it had the Monocontrol direct selection gearbox. One thing I have noticed which I find strange is that this Renown’s drivers cab door slides backwards on the outside of the body to open it normally the door slid forwards inside the cab.

A full list of Renown codes can be seen here.

If you look at the position of the cab door opening in relation to the front wheel it is obvious why the sliding door is external. If it was internal the wheel arch leaves nowhere for it to go, unless the door were made unreasonably shallow to pass over the top of the mudguard. For the same reason Lodekkas and other low-height buses always had hinged cab doors. The only exception seems to be the Albion Lowlander, as bodied by NCME and Alexander, where the coachbuilders raised the cab ceiling above the level of the main upper saloon floor (and raised the foremost seats to perch on top of the cab). That gave sufficient headroom to allow an internally-sliding cab door of conventional style.

David Jones

I’m not absolutely certain but weren’t these the only Renowns bodied by Roe? (although obviously to a Park Royal design)

Ian Wild

Yes, Ian. As was common in the sixties and seventies, whenever Park Royal was hard pressed, they subcontracted to their (smaller) Yorkshire partner. Geoff Lumb’s excellent book on C H Roe records in words and pictures that the Rotherham Renowns were built at Crossgates.

David Oldfield

11/09/12 – 06:43

I think I have a photo somewhere in my possession that show an EYMS Renown at Roes too, or am I dreaming there?

Graham

East Yorkshire – AEC Renown – GAT 815D – 815


Copyright Ian Wild

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1966
AEC Renown 3B3R
Park Royal H38/30F

This was taken at Flamborough on 12 June 1968 in glorious sunshine and about to head off on a Bridlington cross town service. The top deck has the characteristic East Yorkshire inward taper to allow safe passage through the North Bar at Beverley and what an elegant and distinctive livery!! This must have been the last batch of front engined buses for East Yorkshire.

A full list of Renown codes can be seen here.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

I know that the AV590/AH590 engines were a little suspect and that the Regent III/RT was better regarded but I still don’t think you can do much better than the Regent V. [Sheffield’s certainly acquitted themselves well in the mountains close to – and in – the Peak District.]
After the commercially unsuccessful Bridgemaster came the low floor Regent V – otherwise known as the Renown. I was particularly fond of the North Western beasts which batted down the A34 during my time as a student in Manchester. How true, though, about the elegant livery of EYMS.
The Bridgemaster was ungainly and almost ugly. The similar body on the Renown was just different enough that I think it avoided the vices of its big brother. It was the right bus at the wrong time, though. Time and the Atlantean overhauled it – and then came the Fleetline as well.

David Oldfield

Some of the 1966 East Yorkshire Renowns were swapped for some older Fleetlines with the Northern General Group in the early days of the NBC. Many of these ended up in NBC yellow as they ran in the Tyne and Wear PTE area. The sharp eyed may spot one in the film version of the Likely Lads

Chris Hough

Quite prescient, that. Many big fleets dual sourced and many, like Sheffield, went over to Daimler Fleetlines from AEC Regent Vs and Renowns. Although AEC deckers lasted to the end (1968/9), like most other half-cabs, they were a spent force by 1966 – very few being delivered in the last few years. [Regrettably, much the same thing happened with the Reliance about ten years later. Killed off for an inferior life-form. Tragic!]

David Oldfield

I always thought the Renowns bodied by builders outside the AEC/PRV group were very handsome buses. The East Lancs examples of Leigh Leicester and West Bridgford spring to mind The later NCME examples used by City of Oxford were also a smart vehicle.

Chris Hough

I remember reading, when AEC’s intention to build the Renown was first announced, that it was to replace the Regent V as well as the Bridgemaster. At a time of dwindling sales for front-engined buses, rationalisation did make a sort of sense. I imagine that the reason it didn’t come to pass was because, once built, the Renown was probably too pricey for operators who didn’t really need the low floor, and would have driven traditional Regent V customers to Leyland.

Peter Williamson

Chris. I couldn’t agree with you more about Leigh and W Bridgford’s East Lancs Renowns. very handsome.
Peter. You’re probably right about the expense. Bristol had a guaranteed customer base and so achieved it with the Lodekka.
Strange that Bristol managed two world beaters (Lodekka and RE) in particular market segments where the two giants (AEC and Leyland) could hack it.

David Oldfield

04/10/11 – 21:06

I was at Northern’s Percy Main depot at the time the Renown’s arrived. By that time most of our half cabs had gone, but we still had a few PD2’s & 3’s. They all had sliding cab doors on the inside that opened towards the front, however, the cab door on a Renown is on the outside and opens back over, a few drivers found to their cost that when going through the wash the cab door had to be held firmly shut or the brushes could quite easily open it and leave the driver a bit on the damp side.

Ronnie Hoye

North Western – AEC Renown – AJA 127B – 127


Copyright Ian Wild

North Western Road Car
1964
AEC Renown 3B3RA
Park Royal H42/30F

This former North Western bus still in its original livery but with SELNEC (Cheshire) fleetnames is at the Norfolk Arms terminus in Glossop in May 1972 not long after North Western was split between SELNEC, Trent and Crosville. This was one of the second batch of these buses bought by North Western in this case with forced ventilation evidenced by the lack of opening windows. I wonder how effective this was in dispersing the cigarette smog more or less standard on the upper decks of buses in those days. I pass this location from time to time and wonder at how there could have been a busy bus terminus at such a busy location.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Renown codes can be seen here.

28/08/12 – 15:17

The Norfolk Arms was busy and similar to the LPTB Hounslow trolleys, the traffic signals were controlled by the driver when ready to depart. I think it was mounted on the pole just by the driver’s cab in the picture. This turned the High St W and E, Victoria St and Norfolk St lights to red and then the bus would sweep out. I have it on good authority this led to at least one conductor being left behind. The old North Westerns from Glossop had a few characters.

Mike Franks

28/08/12 – 18:03

I felt bereft, as a student in Manchester, missing my AECs from STD, SUT and the local coach operators. Luckily North Western plied down the Wilmslow and Palatine Roads in student land. It might have been a Fleetline or a Loline but my day was always made when one of these Renowns turned up to take me home.
These PRV bodies have, unfairly in my opinion, been called ugly. Compared with Bridgemasters – especially the forward entrance version – these were positively beautiful, and in their own right were better looking than many contemporaries.

David Oldfield

28/08/12 – 18:04

When NBC was set up many fleets were shuffled around like decks of cards, and Northern General was no exception. At Percy Main ‘Tynemouth and Wakefields’ we had a number of Daimler Fleetlines sent off to different areas and got all sorts in return, among the number were six Renown’s that came from East Yorkshire’s fleet. I was in the minority but I quite liked them, especially if you got one on the likes of the 306 or 308 where you had some long gaps between stops, but they could be hard work on some of the town service routes that stopped at every other lamp post.

Ronnie Hoye

29/08/12 – 07:59

I have to agree with David that this version of the Park Royal body, combined with North Western’s style of applying the livery, is FAR better than the version on the Bridgemaster or on Southampton’s Regents and PD2As. Those things were little better than shoe boxes with windows. It’s not far off the style Oxford had on their …CWL Regents, and it really was quite good!

Pete Davies

29/08/12 – 08:00

I agree with David that the Park Royal Renowns were a big improvement on the Bridgemaster but I wouldn’t go as far as to say they were beautiful. The only Renowns that can justify that accolade in my opinion were the East Lancs bodied versions operated by Leigh Corporation. There were both rear and forward entrance versions in a wonderful blue and cream livery. Fortunately one of the forward entrance vehicles is still with us at Boyle Street museum in Manchester.

Philip Halstead

29/08/12 – 08:02

Wearing my driver’s hat, I can imagine a Fleetlines’s attraction for stop start over a manual AEC – much as I personally prefer the latter. Significantly, the North Western Renowns had been “downgraded” from long trunk routes, only to be reinstated by Crosville when they had taken over the Cheshire operations. They claimed they were better out on the open road and could maintain “a head of steam”!

David Oldfield

29/08/12 – 10:17

Philip. I did say compared with the Bridgemaster. I would definitely agree with you about the Leigh buses. I used them on the Warrington service when I was doing my post-graduate teacher training at Padgate in the mid ’70s. One or two were still in blue and cream but orange and white was the order of the day. [For new vehicles, I think SELNEC/GMT orange and white was actually quite good even though it did spoil older vehicles in “better” municipal colours.]

David Oldfield

29/08/12 – 12:24

As I’ve already said I quite liked the Renown’s, but by the time they came to us most of the routes for which they would have been ideally suited had either gone over to, or were in the process of being changed to OPO, as for them having “a head of steam” they could clip on a bit, and unlike the PD3’s, where after a prolonged spell of stop start braking where the brakes become a tad warm and tend to fade, you could guarantee the Renown’s would stop when asked to.

Ronnie Hoye

29/08/12 – 12:24

East Lancs also bodied Renowns for Leicester in both front and rear entrance versions on of the front entrance ones regularly appeared on the rally circuit 190 DBC 190C. My own favourite Renowns were the ones owned by East Yorks in their traditional livery complete with modified upper deck window pillars to negotiate Beverly Bar.

Chris Hough

29/08/12 – 12:26

Regarding the beautiful East Lancs-bodied Leigh Renowns, Philip Halstead mentions there is a forward entrance example preserved at the Manchester Museum.
Their rear entrance Renowns were always great favourites of mine ever since I saw the front and rear view photographs of one of them in Buses Illustrated when new. In 1976 I bought 28 (1975 TJ) for preservation from GMPTE, but in the 1980’s sold it and it then passed through several subsequent owners – maintaining a very low profile in the process. Only last week I learned that it been acquired by Tony Blackman for continued preservation, and who knows…..maybe operation in his Yorkshire Heritage Buses wedding hire fleet, though I do hope that it doesn’t turn black and white in the process. The beautiful azure blue and cream Leigh livery would be very much in demand by would-be happy couples I would imagine – it would match the bridesmaids’ dresses and floral arrangements !

John Stringer

30/08/12 – 06:49

1975 TJ_lr

Leigh 28 at Luddenden Foot, it has been working hard this summer for Yorkshire Heritage Buses. This shot was on her first day in service and as can be seen it is in black & white John.

Geoff S

30/08/12 – 07:09

AJA 129B_lr

Here is a picture of fellow Renown AJA 129B in Manchester, en route to Alderley in true North Western days. I have to admit that personally I much preferred the North Western Loline IIIs to the Renowns in both appearance and performance, but it would be nice to be able to detect something of the variety and individuality of the psv designs of those times in the present day crop of tediously indistinguishable bus types.

Roger Cox

31/08/12 – 07:33

Thanks Geoff S. for sending the photo. I hadn’t realised its restoration had advanced so far, I may well then have seen it at a distance and mistaken it for the ex-Southampton Regent V. As for the livery……….I’ll say no more.

John Stringer

31/08/12 – 09:35

Black marks for the new livery, then, John?

David Oldfield

31/08/12 – 09:45

Is black a good colour for a wedding or do they do funerals as well.

Spencer

So where have you been for the past year and a bit? Have you forgot how to send emails?

Peter

31/08/12 – 12:28

It’s a dual-purpose vehicle, Spencer; white for weddings; black for funerals!

Chris Hebbron

31/08/12 – 12:29

Tony Blackman’s “new” livery is in fact that of Lockey of West Auckland, and presumably was prompted by his acquisition of a full-fronted Regent V/Park Royal which (although new to East Kent) had been operated by that famous County Durham independent. That particular vehicle also carries Lockeys titles while the rest of the heritage fleet don’t. We all have a lot to thank Tony for – in my personal case for an unforgettable ride through the Mersey Tunnel on his ex-Halifax Regent III. What a pity that his revived Halifax JOC no longer operates stage services in the original glorious livery!

Neville Mercer

31/08/12 – 12:30

I suppose so David, but the thought of how it could have looked in its proper livery leaves me feeling blue.

John Stringer

31/08/12 – 12:32

The black and cream livery used by Yorkshire heritage buses is derived from the colours on a former East Kent AEC Regent V which is in the livery of its last owner Lockey of St Helens Auckland I saw the ex Darlington Guy saloon in the livery recently and it looked very good indeed. Better in a livery than a scrap yard!

Chris Hough

02/09/12 – 07:10

The trouble with Bridgemasters and lowheight Renowns was that there was no inward tapering at the front, creating a profile that was squat and square. That’s why the Beverley Bar treatment is such an improvement – it adds a much-needed bit of shape. Don’t forget Northern Counties www.flickr.com/

Peter Williamson

03/10/12 – 06:07

I used to drive these Renowns, 127b, & 129b, in the 60s at the North Western Altrincham Depot , a nice drive but a bit on the ‘Bouncy’ side!!

Roger Williams

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

13/11/12 – 08:44

I was a summer guard with NWRCC at Glossop Garage between 1960 and 1962. It was the guard that operated the lights at the Norfolk Arms terminus and you had to be mighty quick to get back to the platform, clutching Setright and money bag to grasp the platform pole before the driver moved off. Bristol K5G’s were OK but a PD2 was fast off the mark and you held on like grim death for the swing round. Those were the days – swinging loads on the old 125 to Manchester and overloads on the 85 to Buxton on summer days. It was a great company with great mates at Glossop depot. Public service at its best!

Roger Chadwick

13/11/12 – 12:57

Roger, be thankful it was a PD2 and not a trolleybus or you’d have been left standing.

Ronnie Hoye

23/11/12 – 10:03

Roger, Myself and two colleagues have been researching the North Western driver and conductor duties. Would you have kept any information when you worked at Glossop in the 60’s

Keith Hampton

22/01/13 – 06:33

Roger, Being one of the Two colleagues that Keith refers to can you supply any names of staff at all.
All part of an on going, and growing, North Western project of ours.

John Dixon

King Alfred – AEC Renown – 595 LCG & 596 LCG

King Alfred - AEC Renown - 595 LCG & 596 LCG
King Alfred - AEC Renown - 595 LCG & 596 LCG

King Alfred Motor Services
1964
AEC Renown 3B2RA
Park Royal H44/31F

595 and 596 LCG are AEC Renown 3B2RA vehicles with Park Royal H72F bodywork from the fleet of King Alfred Motor Services of Winchester, and date from 1964. They are both seen during one of the famous Running Days on 1 January 2009. Note the different applications of the livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

07/08/14 – 17:16

Are you sure it’s different livery and not different light? [The mirror is in a different position though.] They are a rather splendid pair. We await developments with a replacement for the New Year running days.

David Oldfield

08/08/14 – 06:02

According to the FoKAB website the event will be 3rd(eve)/4th May next year

Ian Comley

08/08/14 – 06:06

David, Thanks for your comment. Yes, it most certainly is a different green. The two photos were taken on the same day and in similar conditions. I compare it to the different applications of Aldershot & District or West Riding against Southdown.

Pete Davies

08/08/14 – 06:07

I do believe that 595 is lighter green.

Mike Morton

08/08/14 – 06:08

On my computer screen the greens look fairly similar or “why bother with two such similar colours” but on an ipad (“Retina” screen?) they look distinctly different.

Joe

08/08/14 – 06:09

Like David, I suspect that this is a trick of the light. I saw the King Alfred (R. Chisnell) fleet pretty frequently, and rode on it occasionally, when I lived in Hampshire from 1966 to 1975, and I recall only one shade of green being used. In fact, I did attend an interview in 1971 to see about a job in the Traffic Dept., but I was less than impressed with the outfit at that stage and didn’t pursue the matter. It was no surprise when it simply folded two years later.

Roger Cox

08/08/14 – 06:10

King Alfred did change their livery in the last years of operation. The upper picture of 595 LCG has the later (final) livery, all the same shade of green. The lower 596 LCG has the earlier livery with the darker shade of green at lower deck level. I think I have stated this correctly, unless the old grey cells are misfiring. (There was a coach livery too in the fifties and sixties, described as “eau-de-nil” – a sort of pale green, with a green stripe or flash related to bodywork embellishments).

Michael Hampton

13/08/14 – 07:05

According to “King Alfred Motor Services: the Story of a Winchester Family Business” (James Freeman & Robert Jowitt, Kingfisher, 1984), the later livery first appeared on the four Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2s (589-592) as a result of a mistake by the Roe paint-shop. Not only was the Brunswick green omitted from the lower panels, but the wheel centres were painted red – this was because these four vehicles followed on from a larger batch (101-125) of almost identical vehicles for West Riding, in whose livery they were mistakenly painted.
Apparently, the Chisnell family (the Directors of KAMS) were quite taken with the result, and decided to adopt the simplified livery (although, I think, without the red wheel centres) as the fleet standard.
This raises a number of questions! Firstly, how can a paint-shop get things so wrong? – even though the application of the KAMS livery was in the same proportions as WRAC’s surely the different destination apertures and application of KAMS fleet-names/legal lettering etc. might have suggested that the four Atlanteans concerned should have not received WRAC livery? . . . and what about final quality control? Secondly, the light green – was the KAMS light green exactly the same shade as WRAC green? – Freeman and Jowitts’ story suggests that the same light green was used on both the WRAC and KAMS buses.
So. Were KAMS offered a cheaper price by Roe if they took the four Atlanteans to more-or-less West Riding specification as a follow-on order? – the bodies are more-or-less identical except for destination aperture, an extra horizontal grab-rail behind the near-side windscreen on the West Riding bodies, and the Atlantean badge on the front of the KAMS buses. Were KAMS persuaded also to use West Riding green as being very close to their own light green? . . . and was that mis-interpreted in the Roe paint-shop as an instruction to use WRAC livery, full-stop?

Philip Rushworth

Crosville – AEC Renown – VDB 964 – DAA501

Crosville - AEC Renown - VDB 964 - DAA501

Crosville Motor Services
1963
AEC Renown 3B3RA
Park Royal H43/32F

Despite acquiring a good number of AEC Reliance single deckers during the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, North Western Road Car Co. had opted for the Dennis Loline for its double deck purchases during that period.  It then perhaps came as a surprise when in late 1963 they received eighteen AEC Renowns (964-981, VDB 964-981) with Park Royal H43/32F bodies, followed by a further fifteen (115-129, AJA 115-129B) with H42/30F bodies in 1964.
However in 1972 the NWRCC depots and operations at Stockport, Oldham, Glossop, Altrincham and Urmston passed to the SELNEC PTE, a separate company – the SELNEC Cheshire Bus Company Ltd. – being created to take over these along with an appropriate number of vehicles.  All other depots and operations were taken over by Crosville, except those at Buxton and Matlock which passed to Trent, and the Manchester depot which was retained as a coaching unit only before forming the basis of National Travel (North West) in 1974.
The Renown fleet was divided between Crosville and SELNEC Cheshire, who soon repainted them into their own liveries.  Here we see one of each – Crosville DAA501 (VDB 964) formerly 964 and SELNEC Cheshire 9122 (AJA 122B) formerly 122, posed for an enthusiasts’ visit to Northwich depot.  The Crosville bus displays the recently introduced brighter green livery.
AJA 122B was later withdrawn following a low bridge accident, but sold to Churchbridge Motors of Cannock, Staffordshire, who had it repaired by Lawton Coachworks and ran it in their blue and white livery for a time.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

05/06/17 – 07:00

The change in vehicle policy by certain BET companies that became evident from about 1960 derived from BET central purchasing decisions which saw virtually all manufacturers other than AEC and Leyland being “delisted” as approved suppliers of heavyweight chassis, though Daimler was added later when the merits of the Fleetline in comparison with the early Atlantean became apparent. The last Dennis Lolines for North Western, which were delivered early in 1962, would have been ordered about a year before, and (excluding Aldershot & District) they were the the last company orders for that chassis. The A&D case is rather special in that the shareholding for that firm was split into three roughly equal parts, BET, THC and private ownership, which allowed a degree of independent policy in purchasing matters, hence the arrival of Lolines up to 1965.

Roger Cox

06/06/17 – 06:58

To amplify and expand on Roger’s comments, NWRCC’s purchase of the Renowns was the end of a saga started when, as part of he 1947 Transport Act, North Western found itself in the BET camp on 1/1/1948.
Denied of its beloved Gardner engined Bristols, the last of which arrived in 1950,it worked with Atkinson to build a Bristol/Gardner clone. When the first small batch proved successful it applied to BET for a sanction to buy 100 more. When this was denied and NWRCC found themselves “stuck” with the groups AEC/Leyland purchasing policy, it had already decided to rebody the bulk of its Bristols and Gardner engined Guys. With double deckers forming the minority of the fleet the rebodied Bristols and Guys were added to by small batches of PD2s. By 1958 something more modern was needed and using Aldershot and District’s purchase of Dennis Lolines as a precedent, bought two batches of the Lodekka clone at a time when BET’s low height double decker preference was the Bridgemaster.
Given the poor response to the Bridgemaster, AEC refined its ideas and produced the Renown. By this time many BET companies had bought the low height version of the Atlantean and NWRCC had tried both Atlantean and Fleetline demonstrators. With its low height potential, a straight through upper deck gangway and, more importantly, a Gardner engine, the Fleetline was NWRCC’s choice. For the third time in just over a decade the company found itself at odds with BET’s policy of ordering Leylands and AECs.
Whilst the Atkinson episode ended with NWRCC’s Chief Engineer resigning, 1962 saw the order for Fleetlines agreed. But there was a quid pro quo. BET had discount arrangements with both AEC and Leyland and the take up of Renowns had not been enough to meet agreed targets. The first two Fleetline orders were reduced from the numbers required, the numbers being made up with Renowns and, with NWRCC’s single deck policy from 1962 being wedded to the Leyland Leopard, the company took a large batch of AEC Reliances which were offset for discount purposes against the reluctance of BET companies to purchase the Renown.
As it turned out, the Renowns were very satisfactory. They also looked good in the Crosville livery as shown, the black wheels and mudguards contrasting with the green.

Phil Blinkhorn

07/06/17 – 05:35

I never realised the unusual financial makeup of A&D, Roger. And London Transport’s is another one. I assume it was in some sort of public ownership, yet it seemed to have shareholders, because Frank Pick resigned from his post in 1940 because he felt the they were not getting a fair deal at that time. If anybody can shed light on this, I’d appreciate it.

Chris Hebbron

07/06/17 – 05:37

A few extra points to Phil’s comprehensive comment. North Western was set up in 1924 when BAT and Tilling, who were then operating together in harmony, reallocated their resources in the area by forming the new company centred on Stockport. In practice, the Tilling philosophy prevailed in operating matters, and this was reflected in vehicle purchasing policies. Tilling-Stevens models were favoured during the late 1920s until 1931, by which time Tilling had ended its financial involvement with the Maidstone maker and acquired the Bristol Tramways & Carriage Company together with its manufacturing arm. Under Tilling’s abrasive new Chairman, J.F. Heaton, Bristol became the preferred chassis supplier for Tilling companies, including North Western, who adopted the make as standard from 1936. In 1942, the fractious association of BAT/BET and Heaton finally disintegrated, and companies were reallocated between the two groups. Rather surprisingly, given the strong Tilling direction of its management policies, North Western was allotted to the BET empire, but apart from some Guy wartime utilities, Bristol continued to be the chosen chassis make until nationalisation led to the withdrawal of that supplier from the open market. As Phil indicates above, North Western sought a “Bristol/Gardner clone” by approaching Atkinson, but BET top brass were having none of it, and the company had to conform with the AEC/Leyland regime of its group masters. Quite how North Western managed to succeed in its choice of the Dennis Loline (I quibble at the description “Lodekka clone” – the Loline III in particular incorporated several design improvements over the Bristol) I know not, but the Loline proved to be a good machine for North Western. More might well have been ordered had BET not enforced its AEC/Leyland diktat. Another factor could have been the decision taken by Dennis in 1962 to withdraw the Loline from the market, but this might well have been a chicken and egg issue influenced by the enforcement of BET central policies, leaving Dennis with only the Municipal and Independent markets at its disposal. Dennis revoked that idea very quickly, and continued to supply the Loline up to 1967. A comparison of the respective merits of the Loline and the Renown inevitably reflects one’s personal preferences, but in only one feature can the Renown claim an advantage – the incorporation of a synchromesh gearbox making life easier for the driver. On the other hand, the Loline was offered with optional four or five speed gearboxes, and North Western had examples of both. The Renown came with four speeds only, and the North Western ones seem to have had quite a high rear axle ratio which might have left rather wide gaps between the gears on the road. Having driven the Loline III in service with A&D, I am well acquainted with the model’s refined qualities. My experiences of Bridgemasters and Renowns are limited to modest trips as a passenger on the City of Oxford examples, and the Renown seemed to give a rather pitchy ride quality. The harsh engine noise, screaming gearbox note and juddery clutch action reminded me of the closely related Regent V type that I did drive around Halifax. The design was inferior also in that, in the somewhat tortuous driveline, the separate location of the gearbox on the offside behind the driver’s cab dictated the intrusive positioning of the staircase into the entrance platform. I remember the slightly sunken lower deck gangway of the Bridgemaster (like the LD Lodekka and Loline I and II) but cannot now recall if this feature was true also of the Renown – the Loline III had a completely flat floor throughout.
(Like much in life, you pays your money and you takes your choice, but I know which I prefer.)

You are quite right, Chris. The London Passenger Transport Board financial structure was not the same as that of outright nationalisation, which did not occur until the London Transport Executive was set up on 1st January 1948. When the LPTB was formed in 1933, the companies taken over, notably the Underground Group and Tilling’s London operations, were “bought” partially with cash and partially by the issue of interest bearing stock – C stock – authorised by the enabling Act, which meant that those former businesses continued to earn yields from their holdings. However, by 1938, the net financial performance of the Board was so weak (partly because of the truly massive investment in high standard Underground equipment and buildings, bus fleet renewal, and a serious strike in 1937) that the future of the entire LPTB concept was temporarily placed in doubt. In the previous two years the Board paid only 4% instead of the agreed rate of 5.1% on the C stock held by the former transport operators, and suggestions were made that a receiver should be appointed run LPTB matters. In fact, the stockholders had not lost any capital value on their holdings as the purchasing terms in 1933 had been somewhat generous. Evolving international events in the months following, which escalated into WW2, led to attention being directed elsewhere, though clearly Frank Pick was not mollified. In the postwar years, London Transport became a component of the Labour government’s nationalisation programme.

Roger Cox

08/06/17 – 07:57

Roger, when I used to hang around Charles St in the late 1950s/early 1960s, I got to know a good number of people in the garage, workshops and offices. In those days there was a culture of encouraging young enthusiasts and I was told many tales by people who had served with the company from pre-war days. From what I was told, the company fought hard to be moved from BET to the Tilling empire once the ramifications of the 1947 Transport Act became clear and at one time was led to believe that a transfer would take place. The story goes that either Crosville or Cumberland, both major Leyland users, would take NWRCC’s place. Now I have never been able to prove the truth of the story with documentary evidence but given the sources, the enthusiasm of NWRCC for Bristol products and its continuing attempts to thwart BET’s purchasing policies it has a ring of truth.
As far as calling the Loline a Lodekka clone is concerned, I understood all chassis were produced under licence and whilst the MK3 was very much a Dennis vehicle, the arrangement held.
I doubt that NWRCC would have ordered any more Lolines. Its surrounding BET companies were already using Atlanteans and the Fleetline was on the wish list of some of them. Dennis’s temporary withdrawal of the type was probably co-incidental given the Fleetline trials prior to the withdrawal. As I said, and this comes from conversations as late as 1965, the Renowns were a quid pro quo situation and were not a Loline substitute.

Philip Blinkhorn

11/06/17 – 06:08

Chris, I think the last straw for Frank Pick was the compensation enforced by the government for taking control of the railways in wartime. The arrangements for repairs, including war damage, were also harsh. The railways accepted these conditions reluctantly but without protest as fears of an invasion were very much to the fore at the time. Bus services were also slashed with little thought at the outset of the differing conditions of the operators.

David Wragg

09/10/19 – 06:31

Just to add a couple of comments :-
On the split of the Company 964 to 969 and 972 to 981 passed to Crosville, whilst 970 and 971 went to Selnec Cheshire.
The Selnec Renown carried fleet number 1922 and not 9122. I believe the renumbering of the batch took place after the formation of GMT.

Leekensian

10/10/19 – 05:20

When I first started work the morning journey to Manchester on the 31 was always operated by North Western. Either by any of the Lolines, Renowns or Fleetlines. Without the best and fastest journeys were always those when one the Alexander Bodied Lolines were allocated with Renown operated journeys not far behind on performance

Tim Presley

Halifax Corporation – AEC Reliance – MBY 347 – 200


Copyright Roger Cox

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1954
AEC Reliance MU3RV202
Park Royal C41C

This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Halifax Coaches” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.