Author: admin

Midland Red – SOS FEDD – FHA 236 – 236 – 2254

Midland Red - SOS FEDD - FHA 236 - 236 - 2254
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Midland Red (Birmingham & Midland Omnibus Co)
1939
SOS FEDD
Brush H30/26F

Midland Red FHA 236 (2254, formerly 236) was one of their unique pre-war, front-entrance, SOS FEDD double-deckers. They were built in large numbers between 1933 until 1939 with bodies by Carlyle (1), Short Bros, Metro-Cammell and finally Brush, each batch having gradual improvements and modifications. Like their SON single-deck sisters, they were extensively rebuilt by Hooton Aero & Engineering (and others?) in the 1940s to extend their lives. This example is seen at Stourbridge busFHA 236._ffjpg station, probably in the late 1950s. Note the position of the fuel cap, which fed the tank positioned beneath the driver’s seat. This postcard is uncredited so if anyone knows who took it, please let us know.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Haywood

10/07/12 – 18:28

It’s interesting how this forward entrance layout, used extensively pre-war by Barton and London Country area as well as Midland Red died out in the post-war period only to find popularity again in the early 1960’s. The reasons cited for the adoption of forward entrances in the sixties were greater safety by giving the driver a better view of the entrance and easing the conductor’s workload as a result particularly on 30ft long higher capacity vehicles.

Philip Halstead

11/07/12 – 08:05

Looking at this, and at the single decker posted a few days ago, without looking at the caption, the radiator grille looks remarkably AEC, at first glance. Then, you study it and see it isn’t!

Pete Davies

11/07/12 – 08:06

Dare I say, that surely must be one of the most awkward looking designs imaginable. What strange proportions giving it a very "tall" appearance and the design around the cab is very unhappy. Even the radiator looks partly buried by the flat, featureless front.
Thank goodness this was only a blip in inspiration before coming up with many superb designs not long afterwards!
I hope this doesn’t upset anyone but beauty really is in the eye of the beholder..this poor bus needed help!

Richard Leaman

11/07/12 – 12:38

You’re absolutely right, Richard, on both the points you make: first, I agree with you that the overall design just doesn’t work. The whole of the cab area is untidy; the staircase gives the impression that the front offside passenger window has just been blocked off. The ‘tall’ appearance is possibly due to the angle of the photo, but you’re right about the radiator, the location of the front registration plate exaggerates the problem, and the livery doesn’t help either.
However, as you also remark, beauty is in the eye of the beholder; unlike many correspondents, I always thought the (much later, of course), Orion looked balanced and business like, (especially on M&D’s Guys), but at the time, the message I was being taught was that appearance is secondary to operational performance any way. An ugly duckling that was economical and reliable was preferable to a good looker that wasn’t.
The choice of entrance location, (Philip’s comment), is worth an entire separate article of its own. For urban working, there was a lot to be said, (before H&S concerns), for open platforms – quick, convenient for passengers, and, provided the driver was using his mirrors as he should, tolerably safe. Doors were less draughty for inter-urban use, but manually operated doors, especially rear doors such as Lodekkas had, were a drag for the conductor otherwise and were usually left open. In moving to front entrances, I think some operators – e.g Southdown with its Queen Marys – were motivated partly just by a desire to demonstrate their modernity; officially, the conductor remained responsible for giving the ‘go’ bell however busy. Personally, I never understood why operators chose rear or centre entrances on underfloor single deckers intended for stage carriage work.

Roy Burke

11/07/12 – 18:43

Although it wasn’t my favourite, I agree with Roy that the Orion – in the right livery – could still look good. [M & D, Sheffield and St Helens being three examples.] …..but ideally have a good looking, attractive vehicle that is also reliable and economic – in that order.
Am I the only one [ducks low to avoid flying missiles] that wasn’t over impressed with looks of BMMO buses? I have a thing about balanced designs and BMMO were, to say the least, quirky and original – and early Ds (1 – 5 especially) always seemed to be a cross between Clement Freud and Eyor; mournful and unhappy. […..or is now a good time to leave the country?]

David Oldfield

11/07/12 – 18:44

While the body, as a whole, is not unattractive, the detail is very deleterious to the overall effect. Although I’m no lover of sliding windows, the arrangement of these is bizarre. It’s also mean upstairs, in such a smoking era! The driving cab windows are so small as to be useless to a driver looking out, and the front/rear side ones are non-standard lengths! At least both headlamps are the same height!
I wonder if these FHA’s had the same entrances as the earlier EHA’s, whereby the (wooden?) doors were inset and there were two steps to climb before going through said doors. I recall the latter when I was based at RAF Stafford in 1956-58. My abiding memory of BMMO at this time was the sole bus (usually a D7), which ran through the Sunday night/Monday morning from Stafford railway station the RAF Stafford. This service must have broken records for overloading, with folk standing downstairs and upstairs and sometimes three to a seat! Bends were taken very gingerly, but with no guarantee that the vehicle would right itself then! If the bus wasn’t waiting, we’d take one of the pre-war Rolls-Royce taxis which held about 7-8 and were more than capable of 70mph, even at 20+ years old and God knows how many miles on the clock! When these beauties were replaced by Vauxhall Wyverns, my last journey from camp to station involved a driver who remained in top gear for the whole journey into town, slipping the clutch with expertise when crawling through traffic – such consummate abuse! But I digress!

Chris Hebbron

11/07/12 – 18:45

This vehicle remained in service until 1960 and was one of the final 6 withdrawn in December 1960. Two sister FEDD’s – 2120 and 2247 – continued as staff and training buses, I wonder how many miles they covered in their lifetime? I vividly remember as a youngster going ‘long distance’ with my parents to visit a cousin in Halesowen (from my home of Birmingham) and the route traversed the infamous ‘Mucklows Hill’. This was used for testing new buses and the FEDD’s were the staple diet on this route along Hagley Road and the climb-returning to Brum-was in first gear for about a mile, I can still hear the howl of the poor K type engine to this day!

Nigel Edwards

12/07/12 – 07:56

The use of forward entrance double deckers in the East Midlands before World War 2 was not confined to Barton. Midland General/Mansfield District (on AEC Regents) and Trent (AEC Regents and Daimler COG5s) were users of this entrance layout for double deckers as well. Trent also had a batch of FEDDs with MCCW bodies. After the War Barton continued with forward entrance double deckers with its Leyland PD1s with Duple bodies while MGO/MDT and Trent switched to rear entrance bodies on double deckers.

Michael Elliott

12/07/12 – 11:17

David, you speak as an enthusiast, and from that standpoint, your views, (appearance, reliability and economy in that order), are the appropriate ones and few enthusiasts would disagree with you. However, expressing your order of preference in M&D’s Traffic Department would have caused major head shaking; doing so in front of the Traffic Manager, Stanley Smith, would have been to risk a reaction of life-threatening proportions! Similarly, I don’t think your views would have been appreciated by the Chatham Detailer who’d had to send out a Guy Arab at ten o’clock at night to replace a broken down Atlantean – a not altogether unknown occurrence.

Roy Burke

12/07/12 – 12:05

I was going to say the same as Michael regarding East Midlands area use of front entrance double deckers. Just to add that Trent had quite a lot of their Weymann bodied front entrance vehicles rebodied with Willowbrook rear entrance open platform bodies after the war. I can also remember travelling from Alfreton to Nottingham on a front entrance Midland General Regent about 1952. They had big single piece manually operated sliding doors. Barton’s Duple PD1s however had power operated bi-parting doors – with a set of conductor or passenger operated open/close buttons on the inside, and I seem to think an external open button.

Stephen Ford

12/07/12 – 19:24

Roy, speaking as an enthusiast, I was saying "Why not have something good looking". Only the reliable and economic (in that order) were meant to be juxtaposed – ideally they should be good looking as well.

David Oldfield

12/07/12 – 19:24

In common with David Oldfield Midland Red buses sadly leave me cold. They may have been innovative but their looks were not for the purist with the possible exception of the C5 motor way coaches. No give me an AEC preferably with Roe bodywork any day!

Chris Hough

12/07/12 – 19:25

How interesting to get the operator`s viewpoint in these posts. Roy`s comments about his M and D experiences of management attitudes just makes me realise that operators had a totally different approach. It was all about profit and loss, with a dash of "public service" thrown in.
You have the best of both worlds, Roy, as you have enthusiasm, and a knowledge of the practical issues!

John Whitaker

13/07/12 – 06:01

Chris H., that’s music to my ears (AEC/Roe).

David Oldfield

13/07/12 – 06:0213/07/12 – 06:02

Fascinating isn’t it how attitudes and priorities change. These days it is all about appearances, image, reputation and less about genuine customer service. Maybe years ago it really did not matter what a bus looked or rode like as long as it arrived at 11.38am on the dot. The even more strange thing is that very many operators combined good looking vehicles WITH service as it is well documented on this website. It is a rather rare find today though!

Richard Leaman

13/07/12 – 09:16

I must agree with David and Chris about BMMO. All my enthusiast life, I have failed to interest myself in anything Midland Red. Something about their ugliness, narrow cabs, and "totally unlike anything elseness"
Perhaps the later examples were more pleasing to look at, but something was missing for me!
It was the same when SOS buses were in other fleets such as Trent, no appeal whatsoever, and I lived on one of the BMMO routes for the last year or so of their existence too!
However, if people ARE interested, who am I to criticise them. To repeat the current idiom of this site, "Beauty really is in the eyes of the beholder"

John Whitaker

13/07/12 – 17:08

Your meaning, David, was really quite clear, and I was, perhaps, being a bit pedantic in taking you up on it. You’re absolutely right; while reliability and economy are obviously vital factors, there was, (still is), no reason why the vehicle couldn’t also be pleasing to the eye. Hence, I’d agree with you totally about AEC/Roe – a great combination that fulfilled all three requirements.
My observations were just based on personal experience. Since I was supposed to be learning about bus company management, I always tried to understand, (and acquire), a ‘management’ view about the fleet rather than an ‘enthusiast’ view. Since, also, the then Traffic Manager was very well known as a man not to mince words, I couldn’t help, as I wrote my comment, getting a mental picture of his reaction, (which would have been voluble and scathing), to the idea that operational effectiveness should in any way be compromised by considerations of what he might well have described dismissively as ‘prettiness’.
My operational training in the Medway Towns altered my opinion of Leyland, a maker who until then I’d almost revered, especially in comparison with Guy, a maker who I’d hardly come across and had never thought about much. Guys every time!
I mentioned the Orion only because that’s what we had and they were very satisfactory in service. On balance, given a totally free hand, I’d probably have stuck with (6LW-engined) Arabs, but with the Park Royal bodies that East Kent had and which were still occasionally seen at Maidstone. Not the AEC/Roe combination that you’d have chosen, David, but if I’d been a Traffic Manager, I’d have been happy.

Roy Burke

14/07/12 – 07:24

AEC/Roe was one of my favourite combinations too, David, but not quite as nice as highbridge Bristol K/ECW!
There are many other "classic" combination favourites, and it would be nice to hear what they all are.
I`m quite fond of the whole range of utility bodies too, especially Daimler CWA6/Duple (shell back dome, of course) I dare not mention the famous phrase about beauty yet again!

John Whitaker

14/07/12 – 07:25

My first encounter with Midland Red buses came when, as an ATC cadet, I went on a week’s summer camp at Shawbury, near Shrewsbury, in 1957. With memories of the Picture Post "eyes" set each side of the front destination display on London buses at that time, I always thought that the curiously miserable, droopy expression of the D5 similarly deserved a teardrop on each side of the destination box. The crude radiator slots of the tin front didn’t impress me much either. The D7 was a bit less eccentric in appearance, but the set back front wheels of the D9, apparently intended to improve engine bay access, always looked a bit odd and unbalanced to me. At least the D9 and the contemporary S14 had a decently designed radiator shape instead of the primitive slots of previous types.
The early FEDD buses up to about 1938 had the unbelievably old fashioned radiator inherited from the ON type, and this was set off centre to the nearside, with the nearside of the cab positioned in line with the offside of the radiator. The result looked decidedly antiquated, and compared poorly with contemporary AEC, Daimler and Leyland models. The introduction in 1939 of the "AEC" lookalike radiator, as shown in the picture of FHA 236, though still offset, did improve matters somewhat, but the curious disparity in the spacing of lower and upper deck window bays makes the body look untidy. Probably another reason why Midland Red failed to enthuse many of we transport aficionados was the boring, unrelieved, overall red bus livery, though the black embellishment of the coaches showed what could be done with a bit more imagination.

Roger Cox

14/07/12 – 10:52

John. If you mean KSW/ECW, I agree with you. The only thing that spoiled Sheffield’s 1957 B/C Fleet PD2s was the tin front. The four bay body was far better than the five bay on the K – but Lowestoft’s rare five bays on Regent IIs were rather special.

David Oldfield

PS: Roy. Glad we’ve not fallen out – and still agree!

Midland Red – SOS SON – GHA 335 – 2416

Midland Red - SOS SON - GHA 335 - 2416
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Midland Red (Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co)
1940
SOS SON
Brush B38F

Another image by an unknown photographer. It shows Midland Red 2416 (GHA 335), a SOS SON of 1940. Apparently seen in its final days – acting as a "Trainee Vehicle" – it still exudes an air of quaint gentility in spite of it having been rebuilt in the late 1940s. (It makes an interesting comparison with the other picture of a SON of this site in its wartime condition).
This view seems to show the driver under reversing supervision at an unknown location (help required please).
Its sister, 2418, is preserved as part of the Wythall collection.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Haywood

03/10/12 – 06:19

Why is it that, every time I see one of these radiators, I think "AEC"? Maybe it’s because I’m a Londoner by birth, despite the Lancashire origins!

Pete Davies

03/10/12 – 09:56

An amusing observation, Pete, that all readers will understand. I looked at the photo, as I did at the earlier one, and wondered about the destination display. The lack of information might be explicable because the vehicle is on driver training, and the similar lack of display on the other SON might (just) be explicable in terms of wartime conditions. However, why is there no destination box at all? The roof line seems to be begging for one. What was Midland Red’s practice?

Roy Burke

03/10/12 – 17:54

Roy, did it perhaps come from the era of slipboards mounted diagonally across the bonnet?

Stephen Ford

03/10/12 – 17:55

If you look at the other wartime SOS-in-service on this site, all is revealed about the destination boards (I had to look first)…. but it still looks as if they meant to have a proper box and changed their minds!

Joe

03/10/12 – 17:55

Yes, Roy, this lack of destination screen has always puzzled me. None of the MR half-cabs had them but, as we can see, the body seems to have been designed for a very shallow one. All these buses used destination boards, positioned in slots more or less where the "L" plate is, even after they were rebuilt in the late 1940s. When we consider that, by this time, MR were one of the most progressive operators in the UK – we have to wonder why they retained this archaic arrangement.

Paul Haywood

04/10/12 – 07:33

Not just the destination arrangement but the vehicle itself looks archaic. The last operator to buy SOS chassis from MR was Trent who took their last ones in 1940. Throughout the thirties, most of the Trent ones were antiquated looking. No doubt they were sturdy, no doubt they were economical, but when compared to their neighbours, East Midland and Barton with their impressive fleets of Leylands, I’ve always thought they must have been something of a joke.

Chris Barker

06/10/12 – 07:45

I agree with Chris that Midland Red’s in house SOS designs always looked archaic in comparison with contemporary competition, and the 1920s shape of radiator that, until 1937/38, preceded the "AEC clone" type shown above made the machines look even more ancient. The destination display matter is intriguing. By 1929, the Midland Red fleet consisted entirely of single deck vehicles, and to cope with increasing passenger loadings, the company introduced its first double deck design in 1931, subsequently producing fifty in 1932/33. This design, the DD-RE (I am given to understand that the often quoted designation REDD is erroneous) had a conventional destination display at the front between the decks, yet new single deckers continued to appear with the slip board arrangement on the bulkhead behind the engine bonnet. Someone at the top of the company must have had an intransigent attitude to persevere with this system for so long.

Roger Cox

09/10/12 – 08:19

In connection with Midland Red destination boards on SON vehicles, I remember that about 1950, there used to be an open box in Leominster Bus Station in which appropriate ones were stored for use as required. Nowadays, such an arrangement would provide a ready supply of offensive weapons!
Service numbers were displayed using stencils in a back-lit box in the front nearside window. Only two stencils of each figure were carried, hence there were no BMMO routes numbered 111, 222, 333 etc.

John Hodkinson

15/10/12 – 07:53

BMMO were in the forefront of advertising their services – although it seems Donald Sinclair didn’t necessarily approve of O.C. Power’s tastes in such matters. So why the blinking heck didn’t they see fit to actually advertise clearly where each bus was actually going? – dark night, fog . . . stencil and wooden board??

Philip Rushworth

29/01/13 – 06:30

The location is Rutland Road, Bearwood. Training Instructor Grainger is watching an obviously trustworthy trainee reverse out of the back entrance to the garage, adjacent to the training school – presumably the route through the garage was blocked.
Mr Grainger took me for my driving assessment when I joined the Midland Red in 1973, which I passed with colours if not flying, then certainly flapping in the breeze!

Lloyd Penfold

29/01/13 – 10:04

Lloyd – how good to get not only the exact location, but a name as well! Thank you. The photo has a late 1950s feel to it, so Instructor Grainger would still have at least a decade of active service left. It’s amazing to think that, presumably, he would have had to be proficient in driving these arcane specimens and the C5 motorway expresses!

Paul Haywood

29/01/13 – 15:24

LLoyd, funny how a name triggers the memory (now at 78 suffering somewhat). Mr Grainger took me in Fedd BHA 453 on 13th March ’57 – I kept the record of my training from 11th-28th March 1957 – and again on my ‘pre-test accessment’ on 28th then passed me to Mr Gowan and D7 4453 (XHA 453) for the test, passed OK. Wonder if you recall any of the other instructors : Messrs Shanain, Skinner, Yardley, Callaghan, Powell, Bennett, Mynard and Birch? It was a short but happy training month as I recall.

Nigel Edwards

22/03/14 – 08:26

Midland Red managed without illuminated destination indicators because it was a system where each route was so well known and each stop so clearly marked that it was hard to get the wrong bus by mistake:if in doubt you simply asked the conductor! I was about 12 when the last SONs were in service and I clearly remember that the vehicle batteries could just cope with starting the engine, the interior lights went right out and often had to be switched off in order to start! I doubt if the system could have coped with more lights! Remember that visibility was not exactly a priority in those days, when only a dim red stop/tail light was provided, and this was in a partly rural area. The departure stops were carefully worked out,to the extent that certain stops on a road were used by certain services only. There was one Stop I used near my home in town, which was provided for just the one cross-town route only… other services along that road, and there were many, just ignored it! A couple of my family worked on the buses in that era and never had a problem with destination boards: you just carried the ones you needed on that shift, not a full set!

Michael F

20/04/15 – 07:03

Another idiosyncratic point about SOS half-cabs was the way that the radiator was always offset to the nearside of the centre line of the vehicle by various amounts – particularly noticeable on the three FEDDs that had been given the ‘full frontal’ treatment while retaining the exposed radiator! (EHA 290 / 292 / 297)

Larry B

20/04/15 – 09:25

Larry, sorry to disagree but the SOS radiator was on the centre line, the optical illusion is due to the half cab being really a third of the width of the vehicle. The lack of a balancing mudguard on the offside adds to the illusion. As far as the FEDDs are concerned, from memory, the same illusion existed. BMMO cabs of the period were renowned for being cramped and it has been said elsewhere that the SOS/FEDDs were not the company’s finest products.

Phil Blinkhorn

21/04/15 – 06:23

Phil, the earlier SOS types with the rectangular radiator certainly had the radiator offset to the nearside whilst keeping the starting handle on the centre line. The picture of an ON at this link illustrates the point well:- www.flickr.com/photos/8755708 Midland Red seemed to take a perverse delight in the jarring aesthetics of its pre war designs. As you state, the cab tapered sharply towards the front of the vehicle to line up with the radiator offside, and the mudguards (one could scarcely call them ‘wings’ on such an ugly duckling) were different on each side. Whatever their mechanical virtues, these machines looked awful and the tedious overall red livery just compounded the problem.

Roger Cox

21/04/15 – 09:42

Roger’s link well illustrates the early production offset radiator but my point was regarding the bulk of SOS production, including the illustration on this thread. Larry stated that the radiator was always offset and this myth is perpetuated by many enthusiasts looking at photos because the optical illusion caused by the eccentric design of the cab, dash panel and mudguards misleads the eye.
Measurement of this thread’s and many other photos clearly shows that the vertical chrome strip in the centre of the radiator is at the centre of the width of the vehicle.

Phil Blinkhorn

22/04/15 – 07:25

Phil That is interesting because the starting handle aperture on the original photo at the top is not on the centre line of the radiator. Does that mean that the engine wasn’t on the centreline?

John Lomas

22/04/15 – 07:26

Phil, take a look at this frontal view of a FEDD with the later centre strip radiator. The middle point of the vehicle is surely the starting handle hole, with the radiator offset right up against the nearside dumb iron. //www.classictransportpictures.co.uk/photo_9863080.html

Roger Cox

22/04/15 – 07:26

Sorry Phil but I’m not convinced. If you look at the radiator position in relation to the spring dumb irons (which unarguably are symmetrical) the rad is closer to the near side spring than the offside.

Andrew Charles

GHA 355_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

23/04/15 – 07:05

I have looked at Roger’s link image of the FEDD, and I traced a line down from the upper deck window centre strut, as this seemed to be fitted centrally. This links up nicely with the starting handle hole, and shows that the radiator centre strip is clearly off-set to the near side. My understanding from reading years ago was that most if not all SOS forward control vehicles had a narrow cab, but eased the driver’s position a little by having the engine (and therefore the radiator) mounted towards the nearside. Wasn’t the pre-war Dennis Lancet similarly constructed, with an engine and radiator to the nearside?

Michael Hampton

23/04/15 – 07:06

To me, the centre line of the FEDD radiator agrees entirely with the pillar between the two front windows upstairs, which appears to be in the centre of the body. The cab is certainly less that half the width of the body, which rather distorts the balance of the lower deck. It looks as if the springs are not equidistant from the centre line.

Chris Hebbron

23/04/15 – 07:08

The only pre-war SOS buses with a centrally mounted radiator were the OLR class, which were coaches converted during the war to half-cab from full bonneted normal control, which is why the radiator was fitted centrally.

Tony Gallimore

23/04/15 – 07:08

Roger, Andrew and John, please measure the distances between the centre line of the radiator and the extremities of the vehicles, nearside and offside in both the photo on this thread an the FEDD photo.
As for the position of the starting handle hole there are many examples of Leyland prewar single and double deckers where the starting handle hole is offset yet no-one seems to say the radiators are also off set.

Phil Blinkhorn

24/04/15 – 06:30

Phil It was because of your insistence that the rad is central that I raised the question of the engine being offset.
Ford definitely offset the engine from the centreline on the 83e vans(away from the driver, they even had 2 holes as standard to allow for LH and RH drive) Morris also had an offset engine in a van of comparable size to the Ford.

John Lomas

24/04/15 – 06:32

Sorry, Chris H, but I don’t buy the idea that the position of the offside front chassis member and spring was further outboard than its nearside equivalent. The handling consequences would have been rather "interesting", unless one was driving, of course. This picture proves the point, I think:- www.sct61.org.uk/ttrc3333  
Phil, I concede that the starting handle isn’t centrally placed on the chassis, but I maintain that the radiator is offset to the nearside. If you check the dumb iron positions on the FEDD picture, they are definitely equidistant from the vehicle sides. It’s the radiator that’s askew.

Roger Cox

24/04/15 – 06:34

I accept the challenge and think I’ve found the perfect photo to illustrate the point.
In the TPC book ‘Midland Red’ Vol 1, page 126, is a photo of full front FEDD EHA 290, the radiator’s central filler cap is clearly to the nearside of the central windscreen pillar and the accompanying text states "….showing the radiator offset to the nearside."
There are a number of reasonable quality front end photos of both double and single deck models which highlight that the rad is mounted closer to the nearside front spring than the offside unit, the significance being that the springs are symmetrical to the centre line of the chassis.

Andrew Charles

Trent – SOS DON – RC 2721 – 321

RC 2721

Trent Motor Traction
1935
SOS DON
Brush B36F

Pictured on the HCVC Brighton Run in 1969 is RC 2721, an ex Trent SOS DON of 1935 with a Brush front entrance bus body that originally held 36 seats. SOS vehicles were favoured by the Trent and Northern companies during the 1930s, and the vehicle radiators were cast with the appropriate nameplates. No.321 ran for the Trent company until about 1953, when it then became a mobile booking office at Skegness, a popular holiday destination for coach trips from Derbyshire. In 1965 the vehicle passed into the hands of the Lincolnshire Vintage Vehicle Society, who rallied it in its unrestored state as shown in the photograph for several years, before retiring it with a (long term) view to full restoration in the early 1970s. Other pictures of RC 2721 may be seen on OBP here (scroll to bottom):- www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/

The extensive refurbishment/rebuilding programme is currently progressing well, as may be seen at this site:-www.lvvs.org.uk/

The SOS ON (“Onward”) type appeared in 1934 following the increase in maximum permitted length of single deckers to 27ft 6ins. The ON had the compact SOS 6 cylinder 5.986 litre RR2SB petrol engine which allowed the body to house 38 seats, and some retained the petrol unit right up to withdrawal in the early 1950s. A diesel version of the ON was immediately put in hand, and after trialling prototypes with the direct injection Leyland 8.6 litre engine and the indirect injection AEC 7.7 litre A171 engine, production adopted the AEC unit. The petrol ON thus became the diesel DON, but the AEC six cylinder engine was longer than the BMMO petrol, reducing the body capacity to 36 seats. The indirect injection engines in the BMMO DON fleet were converted to the A173 direct injection type in 1938, and this Trent example was likewise modified. By 1935, the SOS type presented a truly archaic appearance with the offset antiquated shape of radiator, narrow cab set entirely clear of the bonnet and different shape and depth to the mudguards (wings is hardly an appropriate description) on each side of the body. It compared unfavourably with the contemporary classic designs from Leyland, AEC and other major manufacturers. Whatever the mechanical merits, it was as if BMMO perversely set out to make its machinery as ungainly in appearance as possible. Not until 1938 did the more modern “AEC clone” radiator appear on BMMO SOS vehicles, and then only on double deck FEDDs. The first single deckers with the new style radiator were the SONs of 1939, as seen in this OBP page:- www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

12/03/17 – 17:37

I should have added that Potteries was another company that took SOS chassis. Surprisingly, Stratford Blue, a BMMO subsidiary from 1935, took none.

Roger Cox

13/03/17 – 16:34

UP 551, is a 1929 Northern General B37F Brush bodied SOS QL. It has been fully restored by Beamish Museum, and is shown on their website. Its in regular use transporting visitors around the site, and as Roger says in his posting, the Northern name is cast into the radiator. Whether it would be allowed onto a public highway is not known, but when this restoration is complete, it would be nice if somehow they could been seen together

Ronnie Hoye

13/03/17 – 16:35

Although Stratford Blue ran a very eclectic range of vehicles makes pre-war, it was a very loyal Leyland user post-war. I used to enjoy visiting there (and Birds)from time to time in the 1950’s and 60’s.
A pocket history of the company can be found here: //lths.lutsociety.org.uk/

Chris Hebbron

14/03/17 – 06:51

Ronnie – From photos on the web, it looks as if Northern General CN 2870 has ‘Northern’ on its radiator, UP 551 having Midland Red. See: https://tinyurl.com/he7e48f

Chris Hebbron

15/03/17 – 07:06

That’s a strange one Chris, having seen UP 551 in the flesh as it were, and in all the photos I’ve seen, it has Northern on the radiator, and yet, as can be clearly seen, in this case it has midland.
Explanations or theories anyone?

Ronnie Hoye

15/03/17 – 16:08

It certainly is a conundrum. The radiator shape and bonnet profiles of the two vehicles are quite different and it seems unlikely that they would be swapped over at any time.

Chris Hebbron

24/11/18 – 08:47

I have an AEC 171 engine with engine number A171RB 3952. It is Direct Injection which is puzzling me – your article describes converting 171 Indirect to 173 direct injections – was this an engine replacement or were the 171’s modified to 173 spec?

Steve Bruce

22/01/19 – 07:26

With regard to UP 551 carrying Midland Red on its radiator.
The radiators were cast with Midland Red in the header tank when constructed. The Northern plate is a separate casting fitted over the Midland Red logo. This arrangement was replicated during the restoration of UP 551.
The image was taken during a visit of a group from the Midlands hence the Northern plate had been temporarily removed.

Friends of Beamish

08/12/19 – 06:27

A tardy response to Steve’s query above, but AEC A171 indirect injection engines were (almost) universally converted to direct injection, at least in the UK, but I would imagine that the engine numbers remained unaltered.

Roger Cox

Worthing Tramocar – Shelvoke & Drewry – PO 1748 – 7

Worthing Tramocar - Shelvoke & Drewry - PO 1748 - 7

Worthing Tramocar
1930
Shelvoke & Drewry "Freighter"
Harrington B20R

Here is a picture (a small Box Brownie holiday snap dated 1935 from my collection), showing two Worthing Tramocars’ on the Seafront of that West Sussex town.
The rear of the two vehicles is a Shelvoke & Drewry "Freighter" chassis (No. 03:1059), with a Harrington B20R body. It was put into service in April 1930, given Fleet No.7, and had Registration Number PO 1748. It was issued Worthing Licence Plate 213.
The front one of the two is not identifiable but is one of a later delivery, again with Harrington body, this time of B26R configuration. PO 1748 was numbered B82 in the Southdown Motor Services fleet, when the company was sold to that concern for £15,750 on 1st April 1938. Southdown withdrew it in April 1941 and it passed to H. Lane & Co (dealer) of Chelsea, London SW3, it finally ending its life with Clymping Caravans, near Littlehampton Sussex, date unknown.
The Worthing Tramocar company was formed in 1924 by Walter Rowland Gates (41), a Londoner who returned to England from New Zealand, where he had operated a mineral water business. Residing at 141 Brighton Road he observed that elderly passengers were finding it difficult to board the high step platforms of the local Southdown buses, and, that no buses ran along the Sea Front. His answer was to apply for licences to run a service using vehicles designed with ‘low floors’ (nothing new in this world), and Mr Gates registered the name "Tramocar".
The new design of vehicle to operate the service was a dustcart chassis manufactured by Shelvoke & Drewry Limited of Letchworth, Hertfordshire, and know as the Freighter. A particular feature of the S&D Freighter was that its control was by a handle similar to a Tramcar control handle, hence the name ‘Tramocar’. This was situated to the left of the driver, and was used, to change speed, reverse, transmission, brake, and throttle. The handle to the right of the driver was the geared steering tiller. There was also an emergency foot brake operating on the front wheels only. The PSV Construction and Use Regulations of 1933, made this form of control illegal, and a steering wheel replaced the tiller. The first two vehicles (Register BP 9822 and PX 262 – Worthing Licence Plates 109 and 138) had specially designed bodies constructed by the Hickman Body Building Company, 8 Grove Road, Balham, London, SW12. These bodies had seating for 18 passengers in 6 rows of transverse seats. The service started running on Whit Monday 9th June 1924, and operated between 10am and 8pm, with a Single fare of 2d. There is a postcard image of a Worthing Tramocar – PX 1592, on flickr, it can be seen at www.flickr.com/ 
For readers of this website who wish to learn more of this remarkable concern I would recommend ‘An Anthology of The Worthing Tramocar’, published by The Southdown Enthusiasts’ Club in July 2002.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

22/01/13 – 14:14

Oh what a fantastic period shot – and remarkably clear at that. History coming alive.

David Oldfield

22/01/13 – 15:14

Thanks for posting this remarkable view. I have looked at the flickr reference mentioned in the posting and adjacent in the "index" is a view of Amberley Museum’s example.

BP 9822

I attach a further view of this device, during a rally in September 2009. It shows BP 9822 but the PSVC listing shows it to have started life as CV 784. The body it now carries was built in the Museum’s own workshops. I understand that the chassis was built for a dustcart.

Pete Davies

22/01/13 – 15:30

A wonderful period photo, full of action and people. How the sepia suits it and gives it the glow of a sunny day, which it appears to be, anyway. With all the flags and bunting out, what was being celebrated, I wonder.
I love the jaunty angle of the motorbike’s exhaust! It was taken some time after August 1932, when the Ford Model Y (third car along) went into production.
One thing I notice about the subject of the photo is that it has pneumatic tyres. Other photos I’ve seen always showed solid ones.
I wonder if this part of Worthing seafront is still identifiable today?

Chris Hebbron

With the aid of Google Maps, I’ve been able to pin this photo down to Marine Parade, with the side turning (where the lone lower height building by the first bus is) being West Street. The buildings and view are the same, even to there still being a shrubbery on the right! The pier’s only a few hundred yards further along.

Chris Hebbron

22/01/13 – 17:08

As it’s 1935, the flags are probably for King George V’s silver jubilee.
And in answer to the question, the buildings on Marine Parade/West Street have not changed much, (it would appear that the link to Google street view below only works for so long, if you manage to get a view please let me have a link) please be patient it takes quite a while to load the street view page – //goo.gl/maps/EIEPr

Jon

22/01/13 – 17:09

What a gem! Those really were "the days", especially for bus enthusiasts, as there was so much variety in both chassis and body supply, which created vast permutations of possibility. Our home resorts were thriving, and this photo captures the atmosphere of the time to perfection.
Blackpool and Bournemouth Corporations also operated the S&D "Freighter", as did White Rose, at Rhyll, later Crosville, so it was a bit of a "seaside special", and they were very popular in their more common role as Dustbin carts! Tiny little wheels, solid tyred, I think, at least with the earlier models, and a tramway type "Tiller" control! Delightful is the word!

John Whitaker

23/01/13 – 07:18

My fathers uncle drove one of these S&D "Freighter" as a dustcart for Dewsbury Corporation.I remember my father telling me that they were steered by rods.I have a vague memory of riding on a Lincolnshire Road Car one at Skegness .I think that they had a Bedford front grille. I would have only been about 5 years old but I remember them being replaced by Bedford OBs with the nearside cut away.I think that one is in preservation.

Philip Carlton

23/01/13 – 07:19

Although off-piste, it’s worth recording that S&D were almost wholly devoted to mundane war work for the duration of WWII. However, despite having no previous experience, they successfully developed and built 37ft miniature submarines, called the Wellfreighter. It was built for use by the Special Operations Executive, for the clandestine insertion and re-supply of agents behind enemy lines and suchlike! Amazing!

Chris Hebbron

23/01/13 – 09:15

Amazing what people and companies turned there hand to during the war – with a good deal of success, and probably not a single degree in sight!!!

David Oldfield

23/01/13 – 10:03

………..but a great deal of accumulated knowledge and common-sense, David!

Chris Hebbron

23/01/13 – 10:04

That looks like some close parking by the c1928/30 Ford Model A Tourer squashed between the 1932 Austin 7 saloon and that Ford 8. As has been said, Worthing has not changed a great deal over the ensuing years.
The name of Shelvoke and Drewry always reminds me of an old friend who worked as a motor mechanic for our local Council for a while and that included the hated job of working on S&D dustcarts. Any job was always such a nightmare of dirt and old rubbish so they were always referred to as working on "S— and Dust"! I’m sorry it’s so blunt but it takes me back to a smile from around thirty years ago!

Richard Leaman

23/01/13 – 11:21

Am I dreaming, or did we have Seddon chassis with S & D equipment on Sheffield dust-carts at one time in the ’60s?

David Oldfield

23/01/13 – 13:19

Since we seem to be wandering off into the realms of dustcarts, now may be an appropriate time to comment on one we had in Lancaster in the late 1950’s. From what I can remember of it, it must have had an underfloor engine, because the dustbins were emptied into an area next to the driver (poor fellow!) and unloading was at the back end. It didn’t seem to last very long, and I can only assume that loading was too slow: one bin at a time rather than two at a time when loading at the back. Was it on a bus chassis, I wonder? There is certainly no mention in the Lancaster City Transport fleetlists of any single decker being rebodied after service as a dustcart, and I don’t recall any lorries of the period having underfloor engines!

Pete Davies

24/01/13 – 11:15

Crosville also ran some of these engaging vehicles in Rhyl.
After the war S&D continued to produce dust carts and later fire engines. In the eighties an American firm Dempster Briothers took over the company, they were a major player in the US dustcart market and S&D built some front loading wagons using their Dumpster system they also built rear loading ones called Routechief. In the eighties Dempster pulled out and the remains of the company were bought by arch rivals Dennis.
Many second hand S&D dust carts ended up in Malta (sounds familiar!) Some of the fire appliances survive at various airports in the UK
One fire engine found fame in the TV series London’s Burning

Chris Hough

24/01/13 – 14:56

As a point of interest, the original Tramocar garage is still extant in Thorn Road (just along the seafront from this shot). It is now used as a Tyre fitters. The original S & D Freighters were later replaced, after the Southdown takeover, by Dennis Falcons with special low height Harrington bodies. I believe one of these (FUF 181?) still exists and is awaiting restoration.

Roy Nicholson

25/01/13 – 06:53

I seem to remember that S&D once built an airport bus that was used airside at Heathrow. Can anybody remember this?

Philip Carlton

25/01/13 – 12:29

Why low-height bodies, Roy?

Chris Hebbron

25/01/13 – 17:16

There’s a photo of the airport bus here: www.flickr.com/photos/

Michael Wadman

26/01/13 – 06:18

Hi Chris………..Should have said low floor rather than low height! This was to enable better access for Worthing’s elderly population. I have also made a faux pas with the garage in Thorn Road, as it now appears to have been converted into a private residence.

Roy Nicholson

26/01/13 – 06:19

The vehicles Philip Carlton remembers at Skegness were Vulcan VSDs dating from the 1920s. There were four of them – NR 6648, NR 7266, FU 5946 and FU 7549, which passed from Skegness Motor Services to Lincolnshire Roadcar in 1934. LRCC fitted the four buses concerned with Bedford petrol engines and radiators after the War and replaced them with Bedford OBs with converted Duple ‘Vista’ bodies during the late 1950s. There were four OBs concerned – HUO 692/LTA 752 ex Western National and ONO 88/89 ex Eastern National.

Michael Elliott

27/01/13 – 07:40

re Lincolnshire OB’s – LTA 752 is the survivor, now with Lodge’s Coaches in Essex – see www.lodgecoaches.co.uk/ it sold to them for a fairly high price at auction a few years ago, it had been in private preservation in Lincolnshire until about 10 years ago, then moved to the south coast (again in preservation.)
Lodges seem to have fitted a hinged door – this may have been a requirement to get PSV licensed again. In Lincolnshire service they ran without a door (and therefore presumably crew operated)

Jon

22/04/17 – 06:59

BA8

On 23.01.13 at 13.19 Peter Davis writes about a strange dustcart that he remembers from Lancaster in the 1950’s. I wonder whether it was a Dennis as in this picture?

On 23.01.13 at 7.19 Chris Hebron termed S&D’s war work ‘mundane’. Not a very flattering term for war work that included producing 56,000 sprockets and wheels for tanks, tank transporter trailers, 45,000 exhaust pipe manifolds for landing craft etc.,as listed on my website. He then credits S&D with developing the Welfreighter miniature submersible! This was designed at S.O.E. Station IX at Welwyn Garden City under Colonel Dolphin. It’s true that S&D built the craft towards the end of the war so that they were never used in active service. This reflects the quality of the engineering expertise S&D had at their Letchworth Garden City works. The somewhat eccentric design of the SD Freighter was in fact the result of some very creative thinking between Harry Shelvoke and James Drewry.

On 23.01.13 David Oldfield asked:- “Am I dreaming, or did we have Seddon chassis with S & D equipment on Sheffield dust-carts at one time in the ’60s?” As Secretary of the Shelvoke & Drewry Enthusiasts’ Club (www.shelvoke-drewry.co.uk ) I think it’s highly unlikely. A possible explanation is the confusion caused by S&D utilising modified Motor Panels cabs for their ‘N’; series of vehicles at a time when Seddon also used Motor Panels cabs. Or more likely as Seddons were more often seen as SAM’s (Seddon Allen Municipals ) with Jack Allen Colectomatic bodies based on the American Heil design.these are the dustcarts David remembers.

On 25.01.13 at 6.53 Philip Carlton starts a discussion about SD’s Airport bus. Only one was ever built. The chassis was shown at the 1980 Motor Show at Birmingham and the British Airport Authority ordered one with bodywork by Reeve Burgess. It was placed in service at Gatwick Airport on car park passenger duties but by 1983 had been relocated to Heathrow for internal staff transport. Details from David Kaye writing in Buses Extra No. 49 October 1987. This issue also carries a lot more detail about SD’s as buses.

Brian Carpenter

24/04/17 – 07:12

Thank you, Brian, for posting the photo of the Dennis dustcart. THe outline is much as I remember the one in Lancaster, but whether it was a Dennis is another matter!

Pete Davies

25/04/17 – 14:58

I’m pretty sure it must have been a Dennis if it looks much like the one Peter Davis [writing 24.04.17 at 7.12] remembers in Lancaster. It wasn’t a very clever design as the driver was situated right next to where the refuse was loaded into the vehicle. A full day’s work with the smells and the dust wouldn’t exactly make it an attractive job.

DA49L

Here’s a photo of it as a demonstrator. The loaders travelled in a strange compartment at the rear of the vehicle.

Brian Carpenter

H Brown and Sons – Sentinel STC4/40 – GUJ 608 and Sentinel SLC4/35 – HNT 49

H Brown and Sons - Sentinel STC4/40 - GUJ 608 & Sentinel SLC4/35 - HNT 49
H Brown and Sons - Sentinel STC4/40 - GUJ 608 & Sentinel SLC4/35 - HNT 49

Copyright both shots Peter Williamson

H Brown and Sons
1950
Sentinel STC4/40
Sentinel B40F

H Brown and Sons
1951
Sentinel SLC4/35
Beadle B??F (ex C35C)

The years leading up to 1950 spawned a revolution in the design of single-deck buses and coaches, in which, in an effort to increase passenger capacity, the engine was removed from its traditional prominent position “between the shafts”, turned on its side, and tucked away ignominiously under the floor. Leyland had built a class of buses to this design for London Transport before the war, and BMMO standardised on it from 1946 for their Midland Red fleet.
Coincidentally, when Sentinel started building diesel lorries in 1946, they mounted the engine horizontally under the cab floor, just as they had done with their famous steam waggons. This experience, together with with the fact that the company was by then part of a group which also made panelling for Beadle bus bodies, placed Sentinel in an ideal position to take part in the underfloor-engined bus revolution. In fact Sentinel was the first manufacturer to offer such a bus on the open market, exhibiting two complete vehicles at the 1948 Commercial Motor Show, while Leyland – who were developing the Olympic – could only show a horizontal engine as a taster.
The first models were the STC4, a lightweight integral product with bus bodywork built by Sentinel to Beadle design, and the SLC4, which was supplied as a chassis for outside bodying as bus or coach, although most were bodied by Beadle as coaches. Six-cylinder models STC6 and SLC6 followed after a couple of years, the latter with a wider choice of bodywork. Unfortunately Sentinel’s reputation in the bus world began as non-existent, started to sink because of early problems with engines and engine mountings, and never really recovered. The company gave up building road vehicles in 1956.
With the exception of Ribble, who were involved in the design process and purchased a total of 20 Sentinels, most buyers were small independents, of which Browns of Donnington Wood in Shropshire was one of the best known. The STC4 shown here was new as a Sentinel demonstrator, and the SLC4 had been converted by the operator from a centre-entrance coach to a front-entrance omo bus by the time these photos were taken in 1968. Both vehicles are still in existence.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Peter Williamson

06/11/11 – 17:14

“Following GUJ 608’s photo from Peter Williamson, in Brown’s colours.

GUJ 608_2_lr

Here’s a photo I took of her yesterday (6th Nov 2011) at the Aston Manor Museum, Birmingham. The museum officially closed on 30th Oct, but they helpfully let me in. I couldn’t discover whose livery it was painted in, but maybe it was the one it wore whilst a demonstrator, bearing in mind it shows Senitinel in the number box.
Its history, prior to Brown’s ownership, was demonstrator, then Maryland Coaches, East London, for four years, then Warners of Tewkesbury, for four years. The future of the museum’s collection is now uncertain, as they must vacate the building by 31st Dec..”

Chris Hebbron

07/11/11 – 12:08

GUJ 608 is currently in the livery it wore as a Sentinel demonstrator at the beginning of its life, although it is believed that it kept this colour scheme while with Maryland Coaches. Warners repainted it in their two-tone green livery.

Neville Mercer

08/01/12 – 11:38

I noted with interest the bus painted blue with Dinnington as its destination – Hills of Whiston used to make Sentinel buses and two were supplied to a local company – Wigmore’s that ran between Dinnington and Sheffield – passing
en route Whiston. Could this be one of the two actual buses. They also produced buses for a firm called Camplejohn. Hope this is of some interest !

H Tompkin

09/01/12 – 11:38

The destination is Donnington, suggesting that it still has a Browns blind.
As far as I can ascertain, the only Sentinel that ran for Wigmores of Dinnington was JWW 316. Apparently a second one (unidentified) was exhibited in Wigmores livery at the 1950 Commercial Motor Show, but was never delivered.

Peter Williamson

10/01/12 – 12:00

Ah! Dear old Wiggy’s. As a slip of a boy (13 or so) I wrote to Wiggy’s and got a very nice invitation to their Dinnington depot. At the time it was in the West Riding – hence the registrations – but post 1974 became part of Rotherham, South Yorkshire. [South Yorkshire is geographically correct – if not historically – and better than Humberside. What was wrong with the Ridings anyway? Did the London centric Civil Servants not understand them?]

David Oldfield

31/12/12 – 07:10

The original livery was cream/green and it was Donnington, this bus was part a fleet of Sentinels that belonged to H. Brown and Sons, H. Brown being Harry Brown who was my late great grandfather, look at Made in Shrewsbury for history of the Sentinels.

Does anyone know where this bus is now?

Phil Brown

31/12/12 – 12:35

The past year has been a torrid time for Aston Manor Museum staff, first moving to what they thought was a secure site, then having to move again. Transferring, by road, some frail items, like part-trams and other barely roadworthy vehicles, proved difficult. They are still near their original site, however and, I assume, GUJ 608 is still with them. They hope to re-open around Easter.

Chris Hebbron

01/01/13 – 11:41

There is an earlier reference to Camplejohn Bros. This company operated in the Barnsley area before being acquired Yorkshire Traction.
They operated a number of Sentinels most of which can be seen here: www.jsh1949.co.uk/

Andrew Beever

01/01/13 – 17:32

Re the above link to pics of Camplejohn vehicles, the TTC 882 depicted was, as can be seen but not expressly stated, an Atkinson Alpha. All the other vehicles shown were Sentinels – apart from the obvious Dennis Lancet, of course.

David Call

15/01/13 – 06:14

Stumbled across the picture of the blue Sentinel. I remember the first of these being operated by A C Wigmore (1949) on their Dinnington to Sheffield service. They seemed so modern and advanced when compared to the cab single deck Leylands, operated by East Midlands. As a small boy, I would always watch for this new bus and I remember keeping a blue chalk drawn sketch of it on the inside of my school desk, all through the year. How I wished to drive one!

David Ives

15/01/13 – 14:46

I’ve recently had a visit to the new AMRTM site and my report is at www.focustransport.org.uk/  Due to the building’s smaller size many of their vehicles are being stored off site, and I am assuming this is also the case of the Sentinel which is not at the new site. AMRTM now have a facebook page to keep people up to date about their collection.

Ken Jones

15/01/13 – 16:36

The AMRTM Sentinel belongs to Richard Gray who is a Director. It is I believe at their off site storage and not on display.
A sister vehicle belonging to Dave Wheatley of Kenilworth is currently undergoing restoration and I understand could be roadworthy in late 2013

Roger Burdett

12/08/13 – 10:06

It is good to see the old sentinels again that I used to drive on the service route Donnington to Oakengates and also help maintain them.
They were great years and I believe Browns were the first to introduce one man operated vehicles and later were one of or maybe the first who introduced exact fair payment on entrance.
I used to drive both of the above with HNT 49 being the faster of the two able to do some 45 mph.
Brilliant years.

John Millington

12/08/13 – 14:23

When I was in the RAF at Patrington, East Yorkshire in 1955/6 we often travelled on the buses and coaches of Connor and Graham of Easington, Spurn Point. The small firm had a most interesting and varied fleet, one of which was a Sentinel JWF 176, acquired new. My memories of it are of a comfortable and, for the time, spritely vehicle. On occasions it would operate the 2300 hours on Sunday evenings from Leeds Bridge Street back to our Camp. I’ll never forget the time when JWF 176 arrived, driven by a disgruntled chap called “Jock” who didn’t know the meaning of the phrase “vehicle sympathy.” In the early hours of Monday morning as we sped downhill past the race course into sleepy Beverley the exhaust silencer blew open – without even reducing velocity one iota Jock sped on towards the even sleepier Holderness – I wouldn’t be surprised if all the good residents of the many villages en route scrambled for their WW2 gas masks and tin shelters, under the impression that the War was not over after all. The RAF Police sergeant in the guardroom, and his Alsatian, were overcome with shock………… and the epic journey passed into history !!

Chris Youhill

13/11/14 – 06:16

The Aston Manor bus museum has transferred to Northgate, Aldridge, Walsall and is open several times per week.

Peter Green

23/12/14 – 09:01

When I went to Ribble in 1972, Harry Tennant had been Chief Engineer since 1947. He told me that Sentinel’s were used on service around Leyland deliberately to spur Leyland Motors into faster development of an underfloor engined single deck.
Throughout his reign, on behalf of Ribble he was often leading vehicle developments. Samples: Gay Hostess, White Ladies, VRL Coaches, reverting from Atlantean to PD3 with full fronts (so driver could have similar supervision of forward door), installation of the first 680 engine in a Leyland National (to prod Leyland to get rid of the fixed-head 510) and the construction of the battery electric Leyland National (complete with battery trailer) on behalf of NBC.

Geoff Pullin

31/12/14 – 05:55

My father and grandfather were the owners of Maryland Coaches. The sales rep tried to sell the Sentinel to my father he refused telling him it’s not a coach it’s a bus. He was running a fleet of Leyland, Bedfords and AEC coaches. The rep then found my grandfather in the local pub and talked him to signing up for the Sentinel. My father was not very happy with my grandfather. After running the Sentinel for some years they could never get over brake problems then selling GUJ 608. I talked to the owner in 1993/4 told me still had no brakes. The colour was the delivery colour.

M Leader

07/01/15 – 15:01

Hello to you all particularly Phil Brown and John Millington ……. Great to see all this going on , which brings back wonderful memories of my days at H. Brown and Sons, which was run and managed by my late Stepfather Alfred Richard Brown youngest son of Harry. There were other sons of Harry who also assisted in the running of H. Brown and Sons.
I worked in the office and in 1972 ( I was 21 ) I passed my PSV …. second woman in the UK (first being in London apparently ) but I never got to drive the Sentinels as my Stepfather thought they were too heavy for me to handle, although I did pass my PSV with a 45 seater Duple with no power steering.
H. Brown and Sons were the best days of my life and I was so sorry to be made redundant when my Stepfather decided to sell out in 1978 as he and the remaining family members were all getting older and the need to retire became more essential !
Marvellous times , fantastic staff and absolutely tip top maintained coaches and buses by Uncle Sid Brown, his son Chris, John Millington and Russell Ashley.

Mary Darrall-Brown

19/07/17 – 10:47

I’m Currently working on a Sentinal coach the reg no is AUX 296, we are looking for a Hercules engine as the current one has many parts missing & has Seized. can anyone help, any advise would be most helpful.

Peter Antrobus

26/05/19 – 06:29

Having just skim-read through this section, I am interested in the comments concerning GUJ being a demonstrator vehicle at the beginning of its life.
Has anyone any confirmation that this was the vehicle loaned to Luton Corporation, who were known to have a vehicle on loan as a demonstrator in 1953. My Father drove ‘it’ – whatever vehicle it was – carrying out stage service work and always said ‘it went like the wind’. Nothing was ever forthcoming in the way of orders, Luton preferring to stick with Leyland, and in fact the first single deck vehicles didn’t arrive until 1967 in the shape of Bristol RELL’s!

Paul Fleet

27/05/19 – 08:03

GUJ 608 was sold to Maryland Coaches at the beginning of 1952, so was no longer demonstrating in 1953. In any case, going “like the wind” is an unlikely description of a four-cylinder Sentinel, even though they were lightweights.

Peter Williamson

01/08/19 – 08:59

I and a group of friends have acquired GUJ 608. It is currently still in the blue (ex demo) livery and we would like it back to the browns livery. The bus is coming back home to Donnington and at some point I would like to take it back home to what’s left of the Sentinel works in Shrewsbury.

Benjamin Rothery

02/09/19 – 08:33

With regard to the comment made by Benjamin Rothery, the actual date of us acquiring GUJ 608 was 30 August 2019. We have set up a Facebook page “Friends of GUJ 608 Sentinel Bus” and anyone interested in keeping up with progress is invited to apply to join.

Glyn Bowen

19/11/19 – 06:44

Sent_01
Sent_02

This was moved by new owners to a secure location near Telford.

Glyn Bowen

19/11/19 – 11:51

Sentinel GUJ 608 apparently ran on demonstration to Portsmouth Corporation. A Portsmouth fleet list published by the Worthing Historic Commercial Vehicle Group in 1964 records that it “ran for approximately 9 months from 1950 to 1951 on services O/P”. The list records it with chassis no 4.4030, built 1950, with a Sentinel B40- body. No other data is recorded there. This is confirmed in PSVC fleet history PH14, which records it as a STC4 model [4/40/30], with B40F body by Sentinel itself, new c.11/50. It ran in Portsmouth in a blue and cream livery from 11/50 to 1/51. This is probably more accurate than the WHCV record of “9 months”. However, no orders were placed by Portsmouth, and it was another nine years or so before single-deckers were placed in service, being Weymann-bodied Leyland Tiger Cubs. These were Nos 16-25, delivered in November 1959, and starting service in April.May 1960.

Michael Hampton

21/11/19 – 06:33

I have a photograph of it operating in Portsmouth but unfortunately do not have permission to post it. Very interesting to note that it was fitted with a different style front grill the likes of which I have not seen on any other Sentinel.

Below is is a poster about our group.

Glyn Bowen

F_O_GUJ 608

21/11/19 – 15:50

Very glad and grateful to see this Sentinel saved. Paul Fleet comments that the Sentinel his father drove “went like the wind”. On one of my Sentinel pilgrimages to Shropshire in about 1969-70 I had a good chat with someone at Browns, who praised these buses for their speed, adding that they were very well balanced—presumably referring to front/rear balance—although I know that some Sentinels had their original 8-stud front axle replaced by a heavier 10-stud one.

Ian Thompson

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

25/04/22 – 06:08

Thought you might like an update on GUJ 608.


Despite problems caused by lockdowns etc work has progressed slowly but surely with GUJ 608. It has been repainted into Browns Coachways of Donnington Wood livery as shown in the attached photo taken on 21st April 2022. Much work remains to be done before it runs again but progress is being made.

Glyn Bowen

Lewis Meridian – Sentinel SLC/6/30 – PXE 761

Lewis Meridian - Sentinel SLC/6/30 - PXE 61
Copyright Pete Davies

Lewis Meridian
1955
Sentinel SLC/6/30
DupleC41C

PXE7 61 is a Sentinel SLC/6/30, built in 1955. She has a Duple body (C41C when new to Lewis Meridian of Greenwich) but the bodywork has been altered in this view. We see her parked at East Boldre, near Beaulieu, on 13 April 1986, having been converted to a racing car transporter for Giron Alvis Racing. The PSVC listing for 2012 shows her to be in the care of Spiers, Henley On Thames.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/03/13 – 07:04

The OBP’s authority on Sentinels is Neville Mercer, the joint author of the excellent book on this marque in the Super Prestige series. I hesitate to preempt any comment he might wish to make, particularly since my information source is that comprehensive book, so I will simply say that the correct registration of this coach is PXE 761.

Roger Cox

Thanks for that Roger copy changed.

30/03/13 – 10:07

Oh how I wish that I had come across a SLC/6/30 coach. Many smaller firms fail because they deserve to – not being up to the standard of other products – but not all. Foden successfully made the transition to diesels and only "failed" when PACCAR consolidated them with Leyland and DAF. [They gave up rather earlier on PSVs.] Sentinel, another major steam manufacturer, pioneered horizontal diesels based on that steam technology but then seemed to give up. Their sale to Rolls Royce means that there is a direct link with Rolls Royce Eagle diesels and ultimately the Perkins units in modern DMUs. How I mourn the passing of AEC, Bristol and Leyland but, had things turned out differently, what would the 2013 model year Sentinel have been like?

David Oldfield

30/03/13 – 12:00

I can’t really add anything, I’m afraid, beyond what is in the book. Does anybody have a recent sighting of this vehicle "face to face"? The last I heard the owner was planning to restore the bodywork to its original condition. Going off at a slight tangent, Spiers seemed to have a taste for the unusual having once operated one of the two Rutland Clipper/Whitson coaches built in the mid-1950s. What a pity that the Clipper hasn’t survived!

Neville Mercer

31/03/13 – 07:46

Way (way) back in time, when I was an active cross country runner at Blackheath Harriers, I noted, on several occasions, the arrival of a Lewis Sentinel at the Hayes BH clubhouse with visiting teams. This coach could well have been one of these. Unfortunately, I never had a camera with me at the time. Sentinel suffered from the choice of a poor engine design, and then fitted it somewhat less than securely in the vehicle. I understand that the indirect injection Ricardo engine was actually quite an old design that had been languishing in Harry Ricardo’s filing cabinet from pre war days. Perhaps Neville can add some information on this point. The Sentinel concept of both the haulage and passenger vehicles was advanced in the early post war period, and it is sad, in retrospect, that the power unit proved to be so weak and fuel thirsty. It is surprising, also, that very few attempts were made by operators to re-engine their Sentinels with other, more reliable motors. In the late 1940s, few alternative underfloor engines would have been available, but this situation had changed by the early ’50s. The Sentinel was yet another British "might have been". Neville’s comment on the Rutland Clipper is echoed by me. As a Croydonian, I saw one of these – the second one I believe – in the Purley Way area of Croydon quite often.

Roger Cox

15/10/13 – 12:04

Sorry for the belated response, Roger, I’ve only just noticed your posting on this thread. As regards the re-engining of Sentinels, Midland Red installed one of their own BMMO engines in at least one (possibly both?) of the STC6s acquired from Boyer of Rothley, while at least two of the SLC6s exported to Portugal received Leyland engines later in their lives. The Ricardo designed engines (with the Comet injectors) were indeed quite old-fashioned in post-war terms, and drank fuel like it was going out of style. On the positive side they were probably among the quietest diesel engines ever made. Sentinel compounded the problem of high fuel consumption by fitting the engines in completely inadequate mountings, resulting in the "European" demonstrator dropping its engine while on test with a major Dutch sales target. Needless to say no order was forthcoming!

Neville Mercer

27/10/14 – 06:24

Lewis travel owned 3 Sentinels, all Duple Elizabethans. They were OXT 23, OXT 24 and PXE 761

Thomas Lewis

Oldham Corporation – Seddon MK17 L – 203 FBU

Oldham Corporation - Seddon MK17 L - 203 FBU
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Oldham Corporation
1963
Seddon MK17L
Seddon B36F

Another shot from the ‘Do You Know’ page and it appears this is not strictly a PSV, but as Peter Williamson, Stephen Howarth and Les Ronan made the effort to solve the mystery I think it only fair that their information is posted in the usual way.
The above vehicle was actually operated by the Oldham Education Committee and not the Transport Department. It had a two tone Green livery instead of the usual Crimson and Cream of the Passenger Transport Department but it was garaged in their Bus Depot in Wallshaw Street. It was used mainly to transport children to and from school but during the day it would take children to the local swimming baths for swimming lessons. The vehicle was sold by Oldham Corporation in 1972 and appeared in quite a few dealers before being scrapped in 1981 I suppose if it was not classed as a PSV then there would not be many buyers for it. On a personal note I was in the fortunate position of being transported to and from the swimming baths on a Maudslay half cab coach owned by Glenways of Ripponden, I can see that big ‘M’ on the radiator now, no photos I am afraid and I doubt if anyone has, but you never know!!!
(You know where I am if you have)

21/02/12 – 08:06

Oldham Corporation - Seddon MK17 L - 203 FBU

I thought you may like to see a front near side view of 203 FBU school bus.

Stephen Howarth

21/02/12 – 16:37

Was the bodywork unique? I don’t recall seeing another like it.

Chris Hebbron

10/01/13 – 09:32

Hi I am now resident in South Africa, Pennine was a brilliant place to work, after serving my coach building apprenticeship of 5 years at Star Bodies, Pennine was the first company to pay one pound an hour in the area so we all flocked to Pennine to work, anyway just a bit of info.

Eric Chapman

14/01/13 – 13:27

Great photo of 203 FBU. I belonged to the Buckley Wells enthusiast group and later the Crossley Omnibus Society led by Stan Fitton and we had Oldham 368 kept in the Wallshaw St depot, often as not next to 203 FBU which I always remember, but being young, didn’t record any info on it, like chassis number. If anybody has it, could you post a reply please. 203 FBU was often out during the day with school parties and I remember being taken for a run around Glodwick in it by a mechanic checking that some work had been done properly. I’ve lived in Australia for over 40 years but remember this bus with its beautiful livery. No, I haven’t seen any Seddons around the world with this style of body. A few Seddons did come to Australia and a lot of Seddon Pennine 4’s went to Fiji and Malaysia but not with Seddon bodies. There are still some in service in Fiji, greatly modified, most with Leyland engines from Albion Vikings, but Seddons underneath.
Of course didn’t dare attempt a photograph of 203 FBU in the depth of Oldham’s depot, that was left for professional to do with good cameras, not my crappy Bencini. So thanks to Stephen Howarth for the photos.

Ian Lynas

28/02/13 – 17:14

Some Oldham buses had a distinctive "exhaust" roar 437/443/452/460 plus various M.C.T.D 3555/3557 etc, was this something to do with "Leyland Motors" as it was supplied or down to corporations experiments on power/economy measures. I lived on the "59" route at Mills Hill going up to Oldham it was a hard slog [especially on a Crossley!] regular boiling/steaming engines, often to include 433/440 /437/455.

David Bell

01/03/13 – 05:51

Stockport’s PD2/30 333-342 of 1958 all had a similar "bark" whilst the 1960 deliveries if the same chassis (343-352) didn’t.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/09/13 – 08:30

In the early 1970’s my interest in buses and coaches was started by riding daily on one of two Pennine IV vehicles with Plaxton Panorama Elite II bodies owned by Knightswood of Watford. One of the pair was on show for Plaxtons at the commercial motor show prior to delivery. Those Perkins engine coaches were fine vehicles in my recollection although I was only a kid at the time. Later they bought another Pennine IV with a Perkins V8 engine and Van Hool Vistadome coachwork. It was a noisy beast even though the floor was almost flat. These days they would require industrial ear defenders. After a couple of years the whine of the rear axle was excessive and resonated with the roar of the V8 as it wound it’s way home along the B462…

Julian

23/05/14 – 13:07

This unusual Seddon ran for the "230th Johnson-Hewlett Manchester Boy Scout Group" with a large roof rack, still in two-tone green.
This group also owned ex Western National Bristol L5G 1743 (RTT 953) in 1976.
They appear to have deregistered as a charity in 2009.

Dave Farrier

30/09/14 – 18:30

I remember the chassis being tested at the Shaw Road works and when Chief Engineer RW told the driver to go, it did a wheelie down the shop. The test driver wasn’t too pleased, neither was RW but it didn’t stop them producing. This would explain the wooly steering.

Trevor Gough

Lancaster City Transport – Seddon RU – TBU 598G – 598

Lancaster Corporation - Seddon RU - TBU 598G - 598 

Lancaster City Transport
1969
Seddon RU
Pennine B??F

Much has been written, on this website and elsewhere, about the Seddon Pennine. Most of such text is not complimentary. Southampton City Transport had several, with bids for their Gardner engines being far higher than bids for the complete vehicle when they were withdrawn.
TBU 598G was the demonstrator, which Lancaster acquired via Midland Red after that operator had taken over Green Bus of Rugeley. The wife of one of my office colleagues could not get out of her mind the thought that Rugelli [as she pronounced it] was in Wales so, whenever they went from Winchester to York, she would ask "Why are we going via Wales?" I digress!
It is clear that 598, to give her the Lancaster nomenclature, is in no condition for service in this view inside Heysham Road garage on 20 May 1975. Note the missing door for the engine compartment, and the cleaner’s broom, which is having a rest.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

28/10/12 – 10:14

Perhaps the broom was propping the body up!
I had a ride from Huddersfield to Stocksmoor on it (the bus, not the broom) when it was on demonstration to Huddersfield Corporation.

Eric Bawden

28/10/12 – 11:40

An apropriate time of the year to be talking about the broom.

Ken Jones

28/10/12 – 11:41

Glad you clarified the means of transport Eric, given the time of year!!! As far as the RU goes, I had a connection with these as I sold some internal panelling to Seddon Pennine for the Crosville order which meant a good deal of shuttling between Crane Wharf Chester and Oldham. I worked for Huntley Boorne and Stevens of Reading and they, apart from making tin boxes for Huntley and Palmers – of which they were an offshoot, had a product range of decorative PVC finishes laminated to a variety of metals. Most ECW bodies from around 1967 had some interior panels in this material (as was the "wood" finish to the glove box on some Mk 3 Ford Cortinas and the "wood" embellishment on the side of the Mini Countryman) and Crosville wanted certain interior panels on their RUs to match as the material was easy to clean and impervious to tobacco.

There were great expectations for the RU. Those with Seddon Pennine (or to be exact Pennine Coachcraft) bodies fared worse than those from other bodybuilders though mechanical problems far outweighed those of the bodywork.

Phil Blinkhorn

28/10/12 – 17:05

Indeed, Ken. My mother in law still rides hers, at 92!

Pete Davies

29/10/12 – 07:14

What!!??
Pete, are you saying your 92 year old mother in law still has a 1969 Seddon Pennine RU?

Eric Bawden

29/10/12 – 11:03

No, Eric! Just a broom.

Pete Davies

29/10/12 – 11:03

Seddon seemed to drop the ‘Pennine Coachcraft’ name sometime in the late ’60s/early ’70s. Morecambe & Heysham AEC Swifts 1-7 (new in 1967) arrived with ‘Pennine Coachcraft’ bodies, but the bodies on Seddon RUs 11-6 (new c1972/3) were known as simply ‘Seddon’, as were those on similar-vintage Lancaster Leopards 116-21.

David Call

The history of Pennine Coachcraft is, as far as I can make out from published information and my own records, as follows:
Seddon was producing its own cabs and later bodies for trucks and vans from the 1940s and throughout the 1950s.
It started to build bus bodies in penny numbers in the late 1940s and this grew during the 1950s, most going for export.
Pennine Coachcraft was registered as a company in 1960 and, for accounting and management purposes, was treated as a separate company in the group, though sharing Seddon’s truck and bus chassis site, building commercial vehicle cabs and bodies and bus/coach bodies.
From 1966 Seddon simplified its type names. Bus/coach production was based on chassis known as Seddon Pennines of various marques, of which the RU was just one. So a Seddon Pennine RU bodied by Pennine Coachcraft would be a Seddon Pennine RU/Pennine whilst one bodied by Plaxton would be a Seddon Pennine RU/Plaxton. Other chassis were bodied, for instance, an AEC Swift would become an AEC/Pennine.
When the RU was launched it was originally marketed as the Seddon Pennine RU/Pennine and certainly the Crosville order was couched in those terms but as orders came in for the type and other bodybuilders were specified, Seddon decided that the Pennine name would be linked only to the bus and coach chassis so sometime in the period 1970-1972 the Pennine Coachcraft badging was replaced by Seddon though the legal entity was maintained and Huntley Boorne and Stevens were still invoicing Pennine Coachcraft when I left in June 1971.

Phil Blinkhorn

31/10/12 – 14:47

The Seddon Pennine RU was a grave disappointment to a bus operating industry utterly fed up with the take it or leave it attitude of the Stokes era British Leyland. Operators hoped that the RU would become a real challenger to the dubious Panther/Swift offerings, and become a vehicle comparable with the superb Bristol RE, which Leyland was determined to kill off to enhance the market prospects of the National. Unfortunately, the RU had serious design deficiencies, particularly the exceedingly short prop shaft between the gearbox output and the rear axle, which led to regular failures. Unlike all its other contemporary competitors, the RE took the drive forward to the gearbox set ahead of the rear axle, and then back again to the differential. Actually, this principle had been pioneered some years earlier by a tiny firm in New Addington, Croydon, called Motor Traction, which produced the Rutland Clipper in the mid 1950s. This had a Perkins R6 mounted vertically in line at the rear, and the drive was taken forward to an amidships mounted transfer gearbox that drove the prop shaft back to the rear axle. Only two were made, both with Whitson bodies, but, lacking a camera back in the days of my long gone impoverished youth (the youth is long gone, not the impoverishment), I have no pictures, though I remember seeing one about the Croydon area quite regularly at the time. There is currently a picture of the Clipper at this site:- www.ebay.co.uk/  but it may not be around for much longer.

Roger Cox

31/10/12 – 17:38

The "take it or leave it" attitude Roger mentions led to the demise of Leyland’s trucks as well as their buses. Hauliers noticed that certain European manufacturers were producing lorry cabs with sleeping accommodation, but the BL attitude was that "British truck drivers don’t sleep in their cabs" and didn’t respond. My brother in law is a retired long-distance truck driver. Guess what makes he would normally be expected to drive, and sleep aboard, from about the mid 1970s . . . They weren’t UK-built!

Pete Davies

01/11/12 – 07:05

Rutland Clipper_lr

I have endeavoured to copy the Rutland Clipper advert, and I attach it here. It isn’t very good, but it is possibly better than nothing. Pictures of this very rare machine are equally rare.

Roger Cox

01/11/12 – 10:03

It looks as if the photo was taken at Northolt airfield. Whilst London Airport (Heathrow) was active at the time of the photo Northolt was the "home" of the BEA Viking and one is in the background. BEA eventually closed its Northolt base in 1954

Phil Blinkhorn

01/11/12 – 11:29

I assume, Phil, that this was unrelated to RAF Northolt, or did they share or the RAF take over later?

Chris Hebbron

01/11/12 – 16:50

I believe Northolt is still a joint civil and RAF field.

David Oldfield

01/11/12 – 16:50

When London Airport (Heathrow) opened in May 1946 it was just a collection of runways, prefabs and tents. BOAC and other airlines moved in.
BEA was formed out of BOAC in January 1946 and was initially based at Croydon. With there being little room at the new London Airport and Croydon being seen as too restricted for expansion, the airline moved its base to Northolt in March 1946.
In 1950 BEA operated the world’s first turboprop service with one of the Viscount prototypes from Northolt to Paris Le Bourget.
Alitalia, Aer Lingus, SAS and Swissair all used Northolt before moving to Heathrow.
In 1952 Northolt was the busiest airport in Europe with over 50,000 movements
In April 1950 BEA operated its first service from what is now Heathrow and over the next four years gradually transferred its services there, the last routes at Northolt being domestic flights with DC3s and Vikings. The last BEA flight out of Northolt was a DC3 in October 1954.
Northolt was opened in May 1915 and the RFC/RAF has operated from there ever since, making it the RAF station with the longest continuous use. It was a fighter base in WW2 and fighters appeared again in 2012 as part of the exclusion patrol arrangements for the Olympics.
Currently the airfield houses RAF communications aircraft and helicopters as well as a range of admin sections. It also has civilian traffic again as a number of business flights operate to/from there.

Phil Blinkhorn

02/11/12 – 07:26

Thx, Phil – very interesting.

Chris Hebbron

26/11/12 – 08:34

In 1975, when the photo was taken the undertaking’s title was "Lancaster City Council Transport Department. The change took place after the Lancaster and Morecambe & Heysham fleets amalgamated in 1974.

Jim Davies

11/12/12 – 11:38

TBU 598G_02

Here’s a view of the bus while it was still a demonstrator for Seddon, at the Rugeley premises of Green Bus on 20 December 1970. Alongside it is one of the operator’s pair of Seddon Pennine 4 buses (20, YRF 136H) bought the previous year.

Alan Murray-Rust

10/04/15 – 10:51

Although 598 is a demonstrator vehicle, as far as I’m aware, Morecambe & Heysham as then was, took delivery of all of 11-16 prior to the arrival of 598. They all worked the route past my home at the time, & I travelled on all of them regularly, along with the M&H Swifts. Once Lancaster took over the running of both fleets, they were all living on borrowed time, as Lancaster pursued an all Leopard/Atlantean policy – the whole fleet became common user, & there were probably understandable doubts as to the abilities of the Swifts & Seddons to climb some of Lancaster’s stiff gradients, especially on the slog up to Moor Hospital. For the same reason, whenever a M&H double decker was used on the joint University U1-U3 service, the vehicle was always one of the 5 Leylands (87-91), & never a Regent.

Andy Richmond

10/04/15 – 16:59

Andy,
Thank you for your thoughts. I had moved south by the time of Local Government Reorganisation in 1974, and was only "visiting" when I took this photo. According to the PSVC listings, TBU came with quite a history. New in March 1969, she passed to Green Bus in May 1971, then to Midland Red in November 1973. They sold her to Ensign and Lancaster bought her from Ensign in October 1974. She entered service in Lancaster in March 1975. PSVC shows her as having been withdrawn in March 1977, passing via a couple of dealers to Northern Ireland.

Pete Davies

13/06/16 – 05:52

When the U1 – H3 services started Morecambe regularly used one of the Regent V with Massey bodies numbers 82-86. The route ran past my parents house so I often saw them.
Incidentally 84 from this batch was the only M&H bus at that time to have platform doors supposedly for safety when used on school services !!!

Keith Wardle

13/06/16 – 11:02

Thank you, Keith! Being a resident of the maroon and cream territory next door, I saw the green and creams only at irregular intervals and this particular one even more rarely. If this particular Regent had platform doors. It seemed so out of place when none of the others did!

Pete Davies

13/06/16 – 11:03

Like Andy R, I can only remember Morecambe & Heysham using PD2s on the University services, the PD2s being of course Morecambe’s front line dds at the time. I’ll happily be outvoted, though, if anyone else has recollections from the period.
As for Regent V no. 84, I don’t recall it being used on school services, particularly, in fact the only time I remember it having a regular run was when, for a few years, it worked the White Lund Corner to Overton service, which had a vehicle requirement of one bus. In later years, however, it may have done the afternoon Morecambe Grammar School to Bolton-le-Sands extra, but I’m not sure. Does anyone know if platform doors were fitted from new? The answer to this question was probably contained in Lancaster’s 1978 jubilee booklet, a copy of which I no longer possess.
As to the ex-M&H Swifts being capable of climbing Lancaster’s hills, I think the Swifts would have had a power/weight ratio at least equal to that of Lancaster’s Tiger Cubs, and with the RUs it would definitely have been superior, the Tiger Cubs having been standard fare on the Moor Hospital service for several years. Size would have probably been a greater consideration, I can’t now remember whether anything bigger than 30′ ever ran to Moor Hospital (or Williamson Park).

David Call

13/06/16 – 13:03

David, to answer your query about platform doors on Morecambe & Heysham 84 – YES. According to the PSVC listing, 81 to 83 and 85, 86 were H56R when delivered. 84 was H56RD.

Pete Davies

14/06/16 – 06:01

The quote about 84 being ordered with doors for schools services was made by a member of the transport committee when the buses were delivered and was reported in the Morecambe Visitor. I never saw it used on such services although it might have prevented me and my mates leaping off the open platform several yards before the stop. None of us suffered any accidents from this daft behaviour.

Keith Wardle

27/06/16 – 11:09

TBU 598G finished its’ days with Ardglass GAA carrying players to matches. It is seen here parked in Ardglass at the side of the Ulsterbus sub-depot there. This photo was taken shortly after its’ arrival – I am not sure that happened to it subsequently but would guess it was scrapped.
www.flickr.com/photos/  (The photo is my own and is watermarked as such)

Bill Headley

28/06/16 – 06:24

Bill, Thanks for your comment. 598 is noted in the PSVC fleetlist as having arrived with Mulhall, Ardglas, in 2/78 and as having gone to Kidds (dealer), Maze, by 9/80. Your guess about what happened after that is almost certainly correct!

Pete Davies

TBU 985G_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

23/06/17 – 06:50

I drove her at Whieldons and always found her a great little motor, it was a popular bus and was very reliable, other a diff problem in 1971 which took a couple of weeks to arrive, but considering that TBU had been passed around many firms and had worked extremely hard, perhaps understandable. Its problems started at Midland Red Tamworth, when it was expected to be driven without having the water topped up, not the best idea perhaps!!! This was the first RU, what a shame it wasn’t saved.

Bryan Yates

Demonstrator – Seddon Pennine IV – RBU 502F

Demonstrator - Seddon Pennine IV - RBU 902F

Demonstrator - Seddon Pennine IV - RBU 902F

Demonstrator
1968
Seddon Pennine IV
Pennine B45F

Something to give Roger Cox the shudders ! In late 1968 Halifax Corporation borrowed the prototype Seddon Pennine IV demonstrator, though I wonder if the intention was simply to give the manufacturer some operational experience of their new model. Surely manager Geoff Hilditch could never have been serious about the department acquiring any. I believe this body design remained unique, as shortly afterwards the model was offered as a complete item with a more distinctive style. Hilditch later collaborated with Seddon in the introduction of the heavier duty rear-engined Pennine RU model, and the prototype of that soon appeared in Halifax on trial.

In the first photo it is seen passing along Waterhouse Street in the town centre. In the second, rather snatched and blurry shot, it is seen at speed on the A58 between Stump Cross and Hipperholme whilst operating the dreaded Meredith & Drew private hire return journey.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

25/08/13 – 11:32

Good to see this bus in reasonable condition. It later became Seddon’s own works bus, used to bring staff to the factory off Shaw Road in Oldham. In this role it replaced the earlier Seddon that ran as West Riding 738 (EHL 500). Both of these vehicles were clearly non-PSVs as shown by their deteriorating condition. RBU 502F I don’t believe ever got repainted and ended up with several plywood "windows". It was still there when I was in the late seventies.

David Beilby

25/08/13 – 14:53

How right you are, John. I consider the Pennine IV to have been the most horrible vehicle of my experience, though the Cummins engined Leyland Lynx runs very close in second place. It was basically a crude, fragile, lorry derived design with primitive suspension and decidedly wayward steering characteristics. The ear splitting din from the Perkins 6.354 engine mounted in the front overhang made the Regent V sound like a trolleybus by comparison. I cannot believe that, having inspected this Emett inspired aberration, Geoff Hilditch even remotely considered it suitable for the taxing topography of the Halifax bus network. Robert Seddon had been very supportive towards GGH at an early stage of his engineering career, and it is fully understandable that he, GGH, would have wished to assist in the development of Seddon’s more determined incursion into the main bus manufacturing market. Though the Pennine IV sold reasonably well as a lightweight, medium duty coach, those who acquired the thing as an inexpensive bus soon found that it was not up to the job. Seddon then went on, with GGH’s encouragement, to produce the RU, and this, also, ultimately proved to be something of a broken reed. Only the heavier weight Pennine VII produced for the Scottish Bus Group showed that the firm could make a fully robust psv. I recall that my very first experience of a Seddon coach was in 1958, when, as an ATC cadet on summer camp at RAF Colerne, near Bath, I went on a chartered trip with the rest of the squadron to Wookey Hole. The vehicle that took us was a Seddon, probably the R6 powered Mark 11, as it had the engine mounted under a rather high floor of a front entrance coach body. My main recollection of the ride is the seemingly continual gearchanging (it had a two speed axle into the bargain) required of the torqueless, screaming engine that kept the driver fully employed throughout. I did take a picture of this machine with my Brownie 127, but the negative fell somewhere by the wayside during parental home removals when I worked elsewhere in the land. I wonder if anyone now can identify this beast or the operator.

Roger Cox

25/08/13 – 19:52

RBU 902F_3

Here is a photo of RBU 502F, which I photographed in Fred Winters scrapyard at North Cave in East Yorkshire, taken in 1982, still carries Seddon names on the side, but none standard windows.

Mike Davies

26/08/13 – 17:12

It is interesting to note that the front wheels in particular are inboard of the body sides by quite a margin. With the weight of the engine in the front overhang, a relatively narrow track and presumably 8ft wide bodywork, does anyone know what it handled like?

Brendan Smith

27/08/13 – 05:39

Yes, Brendan. The Pennine IV handled like a pig. I drove one from Gomshall in Surrey to Loughborough, and the steering needed constant correction to keep the thing in a straight line, not helped by the bouncy suspension which could barely cope with the weight of the overhung engine. It had the worst road behaviour of any vehicle I have ever driven.

Roger Cox

27/08/13 – 05:40

Didn’t KMB take 100 Pennine IVs with pretty-much off-the-peg Pennine bodywork around 1970? I think the only concession to Hong Kong conditions were full-depth sliding windows, whilst drivers sweltered behind BET windscreens, and the Perkins (V6?) engines sweltered behind grilles designed for temperate climates . . . I think nearly all were rebuilt with in-house fronts incorporating flat/opening windscreens and larger radiator grilles within a few years.
Halifax JOC’s [sic] Pennine RUs had a high/flat floor (they were kitted-out as DPs): did they have a high chassis frame or did Plaxton support the body floor in some way? and did any other RU operator opt for this high floor line? They also had narrow two-piece glider doors – in short, non of the advantages offered by the RU, but all the engineering problems . . . surely, Halifax’s usual Leopard/Reliance chassis choice would have done the job better. What struck me when they were introduced – and I was 5/6 at the time, so memory might be fading a bit here – was the way the lower back panels stepped out and that they didn’t have "modern" rear lights but the "old" two-piece/oblong units sort-of set into the rear panel . . . is anybody getting the gist here? I’m wondering now, I think they’d be 10 metre, so the step-out couldn’t have compromised length, but was it necessary to inset the rear lights into the body to accommodate the length of the rear overhang? (presumably the RU, squeezing everything behind the rear axle, had a longish overhang?). I think they may also have had coach-glasses below the rear window containing the registration and, either side, the Halifax coat of arms . . . I’m sure that’s the case, because it stuck in my young mind as being "inappropriate" for a bus (as opposed to a coach).
I guess that if I could be bothered to trawl flickr etc then the answers might be there, but I can’t, and anyway its much more interesting to see what this site might come up with . . . or not!

Philip Rushworth

27/08/13 – 11:40

There is a photo of mine posted on ‘another website’ showing a rear view of one of the Halifax RU’s – complete with the stepped out panel. Here’s the link.

John Stringer

28/08/13 – 06:07

I didn’t move to Huddersfield until 1972 but I can’t recall the three Halifax Seddons having this unusual rear end arrangement at that time. At the time of the PTE takeover (yes, 1974 and outside the strict remit of this site), Huddersfield had two further Seddon RUs on order to be bodied by Pennine. We were instructed by Geoffrey Hilditch as PTE Engineering Director Designate to transfer the body order to Plaxtons who produced bodies similar to those recently delivered to Rotherham Corporation also on RU chassis. Whilst I can’t recall the floor layout, I am certain that those buses did not have the protruding rear panels as shown on Halifax 315. Could these have been to create a small luggage boot?? Engine access would have been restricted.

Ian Wild

28/08/13 – 06:09

Thanks for that, John – well, thanks for both sign-posting your photograph and for having the fore-sight to photograph the rear-end, anticipating my musings of 40+ years later. In my mind, the coach-glass just had the crests either side of the registration, but can I make out Halifax in Gothic script above the registration? (the glass is deeper than I remembered); neither do I remember the reversing lights, nor the removable centre panel, nor the squared-off-compared-to-BET-standard rear window – but I think my memories were pretty accurate . . . . now, if only my mother would have given-in to my entreaties to ‘ride on one of the "white buses" to Huddersfield’ I might be able to recall what the interiors were like. The final "Halifax Passenger Transport" timetable (pre-WYPTE) contained a "glossy" colour section illustrating/detailing Halifax buses over the years: one of the Seddons was illustrated, and the description included the phrase (or similar) " . . . the design is still regarded as experimental . . ." – sadly, by 1974, I think the experiment was largely over as regards the Pennine RU drive-train.

Provincial took quite a number of Pennine IVs to replace its re-built Guy Arabs. Anyway, when I was trawling on-line to satisfy my curiosity as to how many, I discovered that the model had been offered with 3 choices of engine: Perkins V8 (eg., KMB); Perkins in-line 6 (eg., Provincial); and Deutz 6-cylinder (a sop to win the Provincial order?) – were any Pennine IVs actually built with the Deutz option?

Philip Rushworth

28/08/13 – 15:07

The reign of the Deutz engine at the Gosport and Fareham (aka Provincial) company came to an end with the retirement of Mr H Orme White in 1967 at the age of 81. His successor, Mr Woolford, looked to get rid of the elderly AEC and Guy crew operated buses, several of which had been rebuilt with Deutz air cooled engines, and introduce a replacement fleet of one person operated single deckers. The Seddon Pennine IV/Perkins 6.354 was chosen, presumably because it was relatively cheap, and no doubt, it was felt that Seddon machinery would be more durable than the offerings from Bedford (history would prove otherwise). When these vehicles were delivered, the Deutz era at Hoeford was well past, so it is unlikely that a Deutz engined option for the Pennine IV would have enticed the then management of Gosport and Fareham. In the event, the G&F undertaking was swallowed up by the Wiles Group in 1969, and, thanks to Nigel Turner’s researches (see his comment on the ‘Gosport and Fareham (Provincial)’ gallery on this site) we now know that the Wiles (later the Swain) Group was one of the identities of the asset stripping Hanson Trust. Less than a year later, on 1st January 1970, G&F was sold to NBC. The possibility of a Pennine IV being offered with a Deutz air cooled engine utterly beggars belief. The racket given out by these engines became legendary. The Perkins engined version was deafening enough. A Deutz engined version would have required the entire passenger complement to wear industrial ear protection.

Roger Cox

29/08/13 – 06:36

Mention of the Deutz engine being fitted to Seddons rang a distant bell from the time years ago when I used to read the weekly ‘Motor Transport’ newspaper and took a bit more of an interest in trucks than I do these days. I recall a variant of the 13:4 truck chassis (to which the Pennine IV was probably related) which was sold under the Seddon-Deutz identity and was clearly aimed at wooing overseas customers, so it seems likely that it could have been offered in the Pennine IV also. I have found a link to a website showing an item of literature about the truck version (though unfortunately it reveals little else) here: //www.commercialmotor.com/big-lorry-blog/that-maggie-was-a-seddonanothe

John Stringer

29/08/13 – 06:37

Roger, I just want to be clear about this – you don’t think that a Deutz-engined Pennine IV would have been the most refined vehicle on the market? In one of the wonderful ways of this site, I hadn’t realised that the Wiles Group was the acorn from which Hanson Trust grew. At its peak Hanson Trust included Courage Brewery, Golden Wonder snacks, hotels, and much more, on both sides of the Atlantic – but they over-reached themselves with a bid for ICI in which some shady business practices were exposed, and I now understand that they’ve contracted to be a largely UK-based supplier of brick/concrete/aggregate to the construction industry.
The Hanson family’s bus/coach operations, petrol stations, car/PSV driving school, travel agencies, and road haulage operations (principally based around Huddersfield) all remained family-owned businesses outwith the Hanson Trust. JET petroleum, one of the first discounted petrol retailers, was started by a consortium including the Hanson family but was disposed of when it had grown to a size where substantial investment in refining capability would have been required.
Anyway, back to the Pennine RU (if not the Pennine IV): according to Vol2 of Duncan Roberts’s history of Crosville (TPC/NBC) problems with the short drive shaft inherent in the RU’s design led to Crosville’s specimens being modified by having the engine set back by 8-10in to accommodate a slightly longer drive-shaft, which resulted in a slight bustle effect in the bodywork . . . could this have been a late modification to Halifax’s RU’s pre-delivery? something that was incorporated into the overall body-work design/dimensions in the later vehicles to which Ian refers?

Philip Rushworth

29/08/13 – 19:15

Crosville had the largest fleet of Pennine RUs at 100 some of which were dual purpose Crosville did not go back and quickly disposed of the ones they owned The next largest fleet was the 49 owned by Lancs United These had Plaxton bodywork with a very old fashioned front with a two piece separate wind screen Prior to this LUT had bought both REs and LHs so the choice was somewhat surprising. At the time the RU was seen as a version of the RE which would replace the expected model cull by Leyland to make room for the National which was just off the drawing board

Chris Hough

29/08/13 – 19:16

Philip, I suspect that any operator that bought a Deutz engined Pennine IV would have gone bankrupt within a week; nobody would have ventured to take a second trip on such a raucous machine. Seddon did offer a version of the Pennine IV with the engine, a turbocharged Perkins 6.354, set lower at the front beneath a high floor level, and called it the Pennine 6 (reverting to Arabic numerals), but I believe that few were sold in the UK. A picture of a Willowbrook bodied example may be seen here:- www.flickr.com/
It is noteworthy that a more substantial/wider track front axle seems to have been fitted to this model. The Wikipedia entry for the RU confirms that the Crosville examples were modified as you describe. I think that they just about managed to get a ten year life out of them. It is surprising that, given Seddon’s decidedly chequered history as psv manufacturers, the Scottish Bus Group entrusted the firm with the design and manufacture of a Gardner engined "Leopard clone". In the event, the Pennine 7 proved to be a robust and reliable model. Turning to the subject of Hanson, my initial encounter with this name came when, as a Traffic Clerk at Halifax in the mid ‘sixties, I came across it as a bus operator and haulage contractor in Huddersfield. Much later, in 1984, Hanson bought out the old London Brick Company, famous for its fleet of red AEC lorries, for a song when the share value fell below its asset value (notably the land). Now the vast acreage of former brick clay workings between Yaxley and Peterborough is the location of a horrible, high density, new town development named ‘Hampton’ (whoever dreamed up that name should get out a bit more.) Brick making remains only on a very reduced scale at Kings Dyke near Whittlesey.

Roger Cox

01/09/13 – 14:08

Roger, giving some thought to things, just how much of a Seddon product was the Pennine VII? When did the first Pennine VIIs enter service – 1973/4? Seddon had acquired Atkinson in 1970 . . . and presumably the designs to the Atkinson Alpha. SBG wanted an underfloor saloon with manual gearbox following withdrawal of the Leopard PSU3/3R in 1970/71 – Seddon wouldn’t have been required to design de novo, just polish-up (eg. get rid of the vacuum brakes) the old Alpha design (last built 1962/3 for Sunderland). Does anybody out there know just how much – if anything, I stand to be corrected – the Seddon Pennine VII owes to the Atkinson Alpha? Did any of this factor in SBG’s thinking? . . .
Again an aside, generated by trawls initiated by this site: I hadn’t known that, until Atkinson’s takeover by Seddon in 1970, Leyland had held 15% of the shares – presumably since the time of Atkinson’s reconstitution in 1933.

Philip Rushworth

02/09/13 – 08:00

Philip, thanks for that idea about the Atkinson pedigree of the Pennine 7. I am sure that you are correct, though the thought had not struck me before. Seddon had never built a traditional heavy duty psv chassis, nor one with a horizontal underfloor engine, yet the Pennine 7 went into service quickly, had no teething troubles of significance, and gave years of reliable service, a situation utterly at variance with the history of unpredictable psvs of genuine Oldham origin. The service record of the Pennine 7 has more in keeping with the Atkinson legacy of rugged dependability than the Seddon saga of underwhelming engineering design. Certainly, the Atkinson board fought strongly against the hostile takeover bid by Seddon in 1970, sadly to no avail. Earlier attempts to take over Atkinson by ERF and Foden were successfully resisted. Some sources quote the Leyland shareholding figure in Atkinson as 20%, and it was Leyland’s acceptance of the Seddon offer that allowed the splendid Preston firm to fall into the dubiously capable clutches of the Oldham upstart. This page makes interesting reading:- web.warwick.ac.uk/services/ The malign influence of the Stokes era at Leyland spread far and wide. Perhaps Leyland detected the underlying weaknesses at Seddon, took the money, and anticipated an early demise of its enlarged, over ambitious, Oldham competitor. As it turned out, the independent Seddon-Atkinson company lasted only a further four years before selling out to International Harvester of the USA in 1974.

Roger Cox

02/09/13 – 08:00

Your thoughts regarding Atkinson’s possible input into the Seddon Pennine VII design are fascinating Philip, and maybe the Atkinson Alpha just could have been updated by Seddon-Atkinson, you never know. After all, Leyland Leopard and AEC Reliance chassis evolved steadily throughout their long production lives, with various modifications to engines, brakes, gearboxes, axles etc, as vehicle lengths (and weights) increased over time. Your aside re Leyland’s 15% shareholding in Atkinson reminded me that Gardner had a small shareholding in ERF for many years. Also, following the Foden brothers split in the early ‘thirties, Gardner supported Edwin Richard Foden when he founded ERF in 1933, by supplying engines to him on credit terms. This was not offered to other Gardner customers at the time, but Gardner presumably realised the potential of ERF’s strong commitment to the development of Diesel-engined lorries. The link up was to prove beneficial to both parties for many years.

Brendan Smith

03/09/13 – 09:00

I believe that the Pennine 7 was purely a Seddon product. I worked there at the later stages of its production and they were all built at Oldham, whereas the Gardner-engined 400-series lorries were always built at Preston (then, at least). I even designed a spring packer for the Pennine 7 to help balance one batch which were proving troublesome – I can’t remember with certainty which but it may have been the Plaxton-bodied version.
Apart from the fact that they were underfloor-engined chassis with a Gardner engine, there was little in common between the Alpha and the Pennine 7. The frame was completely different on the Pennine as it was cranked to accommodate the wide 6HLXB engine. Alphas had either Atkinson’s own gearbox, a weird and wonderful contraption but very compact, or a David Brown box. The Pennine 7 had a ZF box. Late versions of both had semi-automatic boxes which I think were self-changing gears.
I think, but can’t confirm, that the front axle was a Seddon-designed one on the Pennine, with an Eaton rear axle. The Alpha had Kirkstall axles.

David Beilby

03/09/13 – 16:30

David, thanks for that detailed response – my curiosity is satisfied!

Philip Rushworth

02/07/14 – 06:33

While it may at first seem strange that the SBG ‘entrusted’ Seddon with the task of producing an underfloor engined single decker to their requirements, one has to remember that they probably didn’t have a lot of choice at that time. Leyland clearly weren’t interested, while the other established British manufacturers didn’t have a ready made heavy duty UFE chassis – I’m thinking Bedford and Ford there, neither of whom (I guess) would have wanted to build something with a Gardner engine. Other than that, they would have had to go to a foreign, or foreign-owned, manufacturer – or there was Seddon. I don’t think there would have been anyone else at that time. I suppose one other possibility might have been ERF, who did build buses, but not for the British market.
The SBG had already become involved with one foreign-owned manufacturer in such a project (the Ailsa), and probably didn’t want to be seen buying too much foreign produce at that time – SBG was, after all, a state-owned body. Volvo wouldn’t have built a version of the B58 with a Gardner, or Leyland, engine, although that chassis might, at first sight, seem to have met SBG’s requirements. A few years later, Dennis were actively looking for opportunities in the UK bus market, but there didn’t seem to be any sign of that in the early 1970s.

Nigel Frampton

RBU 902F_2 Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

31/10/16 – 08:21

Several Seddon buses went to Central America in the late 60’s. Places like San Salvador, Nicaragua. They went up to 8,000 feet on journeys.
My boyfriend/husband was the engineer at the time and went with them, We have the photos.

Janet Wood

31/10/16 – 15:10

I’m sure we’d like to see a couple, Janet, if you feel like posting them.

Chris Hebbron

Popular Coaches – Seddon Mk 4 – DPR 518

Popular Coaches - Seddon Mk IV - DPR 518

H. A. Vincent (Popular Coaches) Thorncombe Dorset
1949
Seddon Mk 4
Santus C30F

DPR 518 is a Seddon Mk 4 with a Santus (the Uncle Joe’s Mint Ball family of Wigan) bodywork to a C30F format. It was new to H. A. Vincent in 1949 and is seen in the depot yard at Mallard Road, Bournemouth, during an open day on 22 May 1983. I am not sure if this vehicle is still on the restoration scene or not, if it isn’t, a lot has been lost.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

28/02/16 – 15:28

According to an article in Classic Bus a few years ago the Santus family of the bodybuilders is unconnected with the Mint Balls family. I seem to remember that this was mentioned before on this site too, although my memory isn’t good enough to say on which thread! I last saw this vehicle at a Potteries rally in 1995, so it survived at least until then. Does anybody have a more recent siting? I hope so, despite all the dreadful things that people say about both the Seddon Mk 4 chassis and Santus’ post-war bodywork. I’ve heard the former described as "not fit to carry coal" and the latter as "made from poorly seasoned rot". Good luck to whichever preservationist now has this deceptively attractive vehicle!

Neville Mercer

28/02/16 – 15:55

I think the thread you mean Neville is this Vics Tours (Isles of Scilly) – Bedford OB  although that thread has a reference to this thread regarding Santus Leon Motor Services – Leyland Lion – JP 42  hope this helps.

Peter

29/02/16 – 06:19

I researched the Santus family a while back on the FindMyPast website. The surname Santus is a very uncommon one and the majority of them were concentrated in the Wigan area, yet I could not find any link between the coachbuilder and the Uncle Joe’s Mintballs family as far back as the early 19th Century, though there may still have been a connection going back before that period. It seems likely that Santus may have been an Anglicised version of the Hispanic Santos name.

John Stringer

29/02/16 – 08:48

A little further research shows that it was still around when the PSVC listing for 2012 was compiled. I’m not sure how I managed to miss the entry!

Pete Davies

01/03/16 – 16:21

book

Wonderful rare vehicle this, and I too hope it is still around, as would Herb Vincent I’m sure, the vehicle features in a lovely little book…
Herb Vincent Charabanc and Motor Bus Proprietor superb title of a proud local operator.
It was written and produced by John W Watts as a tribute to Herb Vincent and is a must read, and a social history of a rural coach company if it is still available.
The book text states that Herb Vincent retired in 1976 and sadly died April 1987

Mark Mc Alister

02/03/16 – 06:30

Below is a link to an superficially similar Seddon whose bodybuilder has eluded me. Any help appreciated: www.flickr.com/photos/

Stephen Allcroft

02/03/16 – 06:31

Mark, Many thanks for the referral to the book. I have submitted already a view of AJT176, but I’ve no idea when [or if] Peter will publish it.

Pete Davies

02/03/16 – 13:23

HFG 666 in Stephen Allcroft’s link has a body by KW Bispham according to Scottish Area records.

John Kaye

02/03/16 – 15:22

John, Thank you very much for that. I suppose I hadn’t thought of KW as I associate them with rebodies like the one at this link.

Stephen Allcroft

07/09/17 – 07:34

santus

I have viewed the comments about the Santus name and would like to correct some of the past information. I was born and bred in Standish Lancashire and my Father worked on the shop floor,both as coachbuilder and shop manager, of Santus Motor Bodies between 1935-45. I have recently looked up the history of Santus in the Wigan Museum. Thomas Santus started the company in 1906 as a wheelwright and by 1914 was repairing waggons etc. During the 1920’s and 30’s Santus built up a reputation for quality vehicle repairs and bus/coach bodies. By 1937 he was renowned for the Luxury Coach Bodies they produce. The attached photo was in my Fathers collection of photographs and one assumes it was the vehicle he worked soon after joining the company from another Wigan bus body company Massey Bros. In 1939 Thomas died and his 3 sons took over the business. By 1953 with business declining the sons decided to close down and sold up on 12th September 1953. The details came from the report in the local paper Wigan Observer September 1953. The works was situated in Powell Street Wigan and the Army acquired the building for their training recruits. Santus’s tools and equipment was sold off to various people. I trust this throws more light on your history. The attached photograph also displayed on The Wigan World (Album) web site.

Barrie Old

08/09/17 – 06:30

Thx, Barrie, for that useful fill-in information. I’m very impressed by the stylish body on the Leyland TS coach, with its slightly staggered rear waistline. I’d say it dates from around 1937. I like the selling point, "Super Luxury Radio Coach" No sign of a wireless aerial, which would have been quite large at that time.

Chris Hebbron

09/09/17 – 06:36

Chris, further info came to light recently- from my father’s diaries this vehicle was completed, inspected passed and delivered to Fairclough Bros. (BeeHive) Lostock Lancashire on 26th July 1938.
Incidentally, the 3 sons of Thomas Santus were William,Norman & Alan.
According to the information held in the Wigan Museum on Santus, there was a small number of Luxury Coaches of this style built for independent coach firms in the North West of England around the period 1935-38.
1 photograph in the files show ED 8919 with Ashtons Coach Luxury adorned on the side.
Have tried to find details on Fairclough Bros. without success but I believe BeeHive was part of the Co-Op travel group.

Barrie Old

29/10/17 – 06:17

Fairclough Bros. was initially J. & J.W. Fairclough (t/a Fairclough Bros.) later becoming Fairclough Bros. Ltd. The address which I have is 993 Chorley New Road, Lostock, Bolton. The Passenger Transport Little Red Book, 1965 edition, records them as Fairclough Bros. Ltd., Beehive Garage, Chorley New Road, Lostock, Bolton – possibly the same premises.
The first known coach was a Leyland Tiger, JP 681, with an unrecorded C32F body reported as new in March 1935. The registration in your photograph looks as if it could be JP 681 so it may have been rebodied for some reason.
A total of seven Santus bodied coaches are recorded with Fairclough from ANM 24 (a rebodied A.E.C. Regal) in June 1946 to MTJ 774 and NTD 447 in June and August 1951 – Both Leyland Royal Tigers. A link to a photograph of the latter one is www.sct61.org.uk/zzntd447 Fairclough Bros. sold it in November 1959.

John Kaye