DCN 834 was a Guy Arab LUF (chassis number 72143) with a Gardner 6HLW engine, bodied with a Picktree Continental C35F body. Picktree were based at Bensham in Gateshead, near the Northern General headquarters, who had a financial stake in Picktree, these coaches being the last PSVs built by this concern before they turned over to the construction of commercial vehicles. 834 was part of a batch of 13 new to the Northern General Transport Company on 1st June 1954, and had fleet number 1534. These vehicles had bold styling and had all the refinements required to undertake their principle duties of carrying 35 passengers in comfort on Continental Tours. During their final days with Northern they undertook local tours to seaside resorts and on local Church and Club Private Hires, before being withdrawn in September 1962 and sold to W. North of Sherburn, who took all 13. A total of 8* were bought by Ledgards, and taken in to stock in January 1963, these being DCN 831/ 834 – 840. North’s put them through the MoT Certificate of Fitness test, before delivery to Ledgards, and obtained ‘tickets’ for 5 years for them. They were painted by Ledgards at Armley Depot and all had entered service from there by April 1963. The coach livery at that time consisted of black roof, cream window surrounds, black wings, and blue panel work, with cream wheels. The final coach livery introduced by February 1964, was sky blue for the wings and window surrounds, with ivory panels, 834, along with 839 were the first to be released in these new colours, as shown in the picture. The picture is taken on the roof of the Armley garage, where so many of Ledgard’s vehicles ended their lives. Does anybody know the name of the Driver? 834 was withdrawn in April 1968 and went back to W. North (Dealer) at Sherburn, from where it was sold, along with 835/6/7 to Minster Homes (Contractor) in May 1968 for use as site offices. *DCN 832 was additionally bought for spares from North’s (via Woods Coaches of Pollington, near Goole), in March 1966, and was dismantled on Armley garage roof, the remains going to Jackson (Bradford) for scrap in August 1967. A picture of Northern General 1532 can be seen at this link. For anybody interested in wanting to find out more about the History and Fleet of Samuel Ledgard they should read the book Samuel Ledgard Beer and Blue Buses by Don Bate. ISBN 095288499.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
18/08/13 – 06:40
Is the driver really Chris Youhill?
Joe
18/08/13 – 12:08
No Joe – that’s not me. We only had DCN 831 at Otley depot. However, now you mention my good friend Don’s book, there is a picture of me as a young conductor at the bottom of the front cover – this was as a token of appreciation for my assistance with photo captions and information on aspects of the operations side of the Company.
Chris Youhill
20/08/13 – 18:57
In the 50’s and 60’s, Northern General had a booking Office in Pilgrim Street Newcastle, which was just around the corner from Worswick Street Bus Station. Anyway, I remember that in the window of the shop they had a model of one of these in a glass case. I don’t know what the scale was, but to a young boy of about eight or nine it looked enormous. From other makers models I’ve seen, I would guess it would have probably been an inch to the foot, so about 30ins long. I wonder what happened to it?
Ronnie Hoye
10/11/14 – 06:48
There are some pictures of Ledgard buses, including one of these Guys, on the following site of Marc Parry (with whom I once worked at LCBS); scroll down a little from the top of the first page:- www.flickr.com/photos/
Roger Cox
12/02/15 – 06:35
The driver of DCN 834 is me John Jackson, taken in August 1967.
John Jackson
12/02/15 – 12:15
Nice to see you “in print” JJ – if only the good old firm was still around – the happiest days of my PSV career without a doubt !!
Chris Youhill
13/02/15 – 06:18
Chris, what made Ledgard’s such a good place to work? Were the T&Cs better than WYRCC? – I know from my time in Cambridge that Premier apparently had better terms and conditions than ECOC. Geography may have played a part, but surely Armley-based drivers could have found better terms with LCT up the road at Bramley or in the City Centre at Sovereign Street? But then again why drive for Ribble out of Bolton or Hebble, full-stop, when corporation operations in the same town(s) offered better salaries . . .? Did variety of work, or the opportunity of “top-link” work (and associated tips) play a part?
Philip Rushworth
22/02/15 – 16:26
Well Philip, any answer to your question is bound to be complex and to vary between individual employees of every grade. So perhaps its best put as a “list.” T & Cs – very favourable indeed, and the wage rates were good and generous. When I started there were no sick pay or pension schemes but many other advantages. Duties – comprehensive and interesting with none of the soul destroying “one road and the same mate for ever” system of many of the municipalised and group concerns. We had five depots, each with its own rota and route systems derived from its origin – built by SL or acquired. Well to be exact four depots, as Ilkley was a “running shed” administered totally from the larger Otley one – a seven week rota of local folks from nearby, while Otley had a twenty week rota – with a little twist !! All twenty drivers moved forward week by week while seventeen of the conductors moved “up the sheet” – the other three conductors were to all intents and purposes always on the Otley local cross town service from Bradford Road (Golf House) to Newall Estate – they all liked it and it suited them with their Ultimate ticket machines !! Variety of work – plenty as most duties involved working on more than one route daily – not all, but most – and the mix of routes was considerable, varying widely between very very busy town services and almost always hectic longer interurban ones. Running times were generally pretty tight, especially with traditional live transmission vehicles and much hilly terrain with frequent stops and, despite the oft heard modern saying “Ah but there wasn’t the traffic around then” there was more than enough to contend with. Rolling stock – now here was the real appeal, especially to anyone with even a trace of interest and enthusiasm. The mix was incredible, with representatives new and previously owned, of a wide array of chassis and body makes, ages and origins – and mainly distributed seemingly “willy nilly” around the depots. Larger concerns might view this as unsatisfactory and often had rigid allocation policies – fair enough if it suited them. Despite this way of working at Ledgard’s maintenance by skilled and dedicated staff was extremely good indeed – most of the heavy work being carried out at Otley and the huge Armley Leeds premises – resulting in the virtually 100% reliable service at all times and in all conditions which the Public have never enjoyed since and a “straw poll” on the streets would certainly confirm this. The local press after the October 1967 SL demise was full of justifiable venom against the new regime(s). Its often forgotten, or perhaps not even known by younger people, that until Samuel himself died in April 1952 all vehicle purchases since 1912 had been brand new, other than those acquired with taken over Firms. When the necessity then arose for multiple reasons, Death duties chiefly, to buy second hand the Executors chose carefully and wisely and only rarely bought a lame duck or, as is the amusing term oft used in the motor trade, a “dog.”
Chris Youhill
23/02/15 – 07:30
Chris, thanks for that reply. So was Yeadon a “full” depot then? I’d always assumed it was an Otley dormy shed, like Ilkley. Samuel Ledgard is always presented as the archetypical shrewd Yorkshire businessman . . . but he wasn’t so shrewd as to take the necessary steps to protect his main business interests in the event of his death. That being said he did die at a relatively young age and might not have thought it necessary at that time – and I suppose there are disadvantages in forming limited liability companies.
Philip Rushworth
23/02/15 – 07:31
Chris Y – You certainly have a nice and relaxed writing style, which is easy to read, informative, and easy to understand. I must admit (and I am sure others will agree) that I read every one of your contributions to this site because they are so full of knowledge and interest, not just on Samuel Ledgard, as above, but on all aspects of PSV (none of that PCV stuff on here) operations, and history. Long may you continue to contribute and keep me, at least, educated and informed with your wealth of knowledge. For those on here who want to know more about the History of Samuel Ledgard then I would recommend the book, BEER AND BLUE BUSES – by DON BATE (ISBN: 9780952388494), if you are able to find one for sale. Mr Y has contributed, and, (not for the faint hearted) there is even a picture of him on the front cover.
Stephen Howarth
23/02/15 – 08:45
Indeed Philip, Yeadon was to all intents and purposes a full independent depot, and was referred to right up to the end in 1967 as “The Moorfield” – officially and among the staff and passengers. The name was of course that of the Moorfield Bus Company taken over by SL in 1934. All essential maintenance and quite heavy intermediate work was carried out there, but major overhauls and recertification were done at Otley. or Armley. The crews at Yeadon, about fourteen if I recall correctly, were a lively set of loveable individual characters – no one more so than “the Reverend Candler” who very sadly passed away en route for a late turn aged only in his early forties. Only very occasionally did Yeadon have to exchange staff with Otley in extreme circumstances – like my Siberian Monday rest day on a split turn with the aforementioned Reverend. Otherwise on Summer Sundays it was routine for Moorfield staff and buses, if available, to be sent on standby to Otley, where literally huge crowds of Leeds (mainly) and Bradford city dwellers needed taking home after a nice day out – sometimes the queues were still large at nine and ten on Sunday evenings, and all were cleared without fail – such was the reliable SL service.
Stephen – thank you indeed for your kind remarks which leave me blushing here. I do find it easy to write about the subject, and I enjoy keeping the fading history of the old Firm, and the earlier industry in general, alive where I can. I had to chuckle at your warning to the unwary that my picture (late 1957) on the cover of Don’s book is not for the fainthearted – I’m afraid that a current view if published would have the A & E Departments on overtime !! Don was only saying last evening that its around ten years since the book was published – time flies.
Chris Youhill
23/02/15 – 14:28
There are currently 3 copies available on ABE Books website (other book searches are available) they range between £30 and £40 +p&p
John Lomas
24/02/15 – 06:14
I’m surprised no one has picked up on Philip Rushworth’s comment that Samuel Ledgard died relatively young. Born in 1874 and dying in 1952 that made him 78 years of age. I would have thought that a “good innings” for that era.
Eric Bawden
24/02/15 – 06:15
Six in total John, from the three outlets
Chris Youhill
27/02/15 – 06:59
Eric, you are right: I didn’t check my facts – in my defence, my books are currently packed away – and I’d confused the date at which he became licensee of The Nelson . . . which would have made him about ?14 when he put his first char-a-banc on the road! But, it just serves to underline my point: he’d have been 72 when Clement Atlee’s Labour government took power – over the next few years he’d have had plenty time to see which way the wind was blowing on Capital Transfer Tax . . . and yet he did nothing to protect his businesses, despite his age.
Whieldons (The Green Bus Co. Ltd) 1958 Guy LUF Burlingham Seagull C37F
From the beginning of November 1973 Whieldons t/a The Green Bus Service was taken over by the National Bus Co with Midland Red continuing much of the network although three Uttoxeter services passed to PMT o/w the Potteries Motor Services. Mr C J Whieldon had commenced bus operation in May 1927. By chance, I had a few rides in the spring of 1972 by catching an early Saturday journey out of Rugeley for Uttoxeter via Drointon returning direct via Abbotts Bromley. I still have a faded Setright ticket which might have been a return. The latter service was always a newish Seddon Pennine IV bus which continued on to Cannock but the Drointon service was an older coach no doubt as it wandered the country lanes. On one occasion I caught a Ford 570E with Duple Yeoman body i.e. it looked and sounded like a Bedford SB with a seat next to the driver. Once I enjoyed a ride on 500 URF, a Guy LUF with Burlingham Seagull coachwork which the company had bought new in 1958. The first passenger boarded somewhere in the lanes and the opportunity was taken for a photograph.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton
24/06/16 – 05:58
Oh dear, Keith; the mention of the excellent Guy Arab LUF in the same paragraph as the Seddon Pennine IV illustrates the decline of Green Bus from the sublime to the ridiculous. The Pennine IV was an abomination. Guy offered an underfloor engined chassis, initially the Arab UF, and then from 1953, the the lighter LUF, between 1950 and 1959, after which date the manufacturer chose to place all its eggs in the one ill fated basket called the Wulfrunian. It is rather curious that the Tilling group depended heavily upon Gardner engined underfloor engined chassis, yet the BET, municipal and independent sectors had limited choices of Gardner powered UF models. Atkinson, Daimler and Guy all produced Gardner engined underfloor chassis, but orders were never large. Daimler offered epicyclic transmission as standard, which was an option with Guy, but otherwise the gearbox in Atkinson and Guy models was of the constant mesh variety. The decidedly heavy Daimler Freeline was additionally suspect by virtue of its high pressure hydraulics until an air pressure variant became available. North Western Road Car sought to recreate Bristol simplicity and reliability in the rugged Atkinson chassis, but the heavy hand of BET central control stopped this project in its tracks, and Atkinson never really made much of an impression thereafter. Guy were generally more successful, but the real problem lay in the availability of the AEC Reliance, which, with its light steering and excellent synchromesh gearbox, was a driver’s dream. Even when the shortcomings of the AEC wet liner engines began to emerge, the sales scenario did not alter materially, though Leyland picked up customers with the introduction of the Leopard. I have often wondered if the availability of a decent synchromesh gearbox to the smaller makers might have influenced the situation in their favour. Perhaps the ideal would have been a Gardner powered Reliance. One is surely allowed to dream!
Roger Cox
27/06/16 – 05:53
I get the impression that BET’s central purchasing policy was more about bulk discounts, and cost generally, than anything else. Guys were almost certainly more expensive than Leylands and AECs, and the company might not have been able to handle the quantities required to allow bulk discounts.
Peter Williamson
29/06/16 – 06:11
Perhaps it’s just the angles of the photo, or maybe 500 URF was simply way past her best by then, but this might just about be the ugliest and most downtrodden Seagull I have ever seen. Were the glorious, beautiful Seagull bodies different for each type of chassis ?
Stuart C
29/06/16 – 16:11
I am not a Seagull expert but this I believe is the later version with the front entrance body and I believe has a higher waist line. IMHO the best derivative was the centre entrance version on the 8ft wide chassis as on Tiger Cubs and some Reliances. I also had a soft spot for the Ribble/Standerwick domed versions as they looked like a purposeful express coach.
Roger Burdett
29/06/16 – 16:12
This is a very late example of a Seagull Mk V body, but incorporates many non-standard features, most notably the straight moulding at skirt panel level. Burlingham had already moved on to the Mk VI (with window pans as supplied to Ribble and others) and the Mk VII (with “panoramic windows”), so I suspect that these later Mk V bodies were made from whatever bits were left over. These “Meccano Kit” bodies (both from Burlingham and other body-builders) tended to end up on low-volume chassis at the end of their production runs.
Neville Mercer
12/03/21 – 06:00
When I was doing my eight weeks “square bashing” at Hednesford in November – December 1954 any leisure travel was by Green Bus Service (Rugeley and Uttoxeter) Ltd, whose double deckers were allowed just inside the Camp to start at the guardroom – ex Birmingham Corporation Daimler CVGs were the normal vehicles – absolutely oozing vintage “character” and seemingly well maintained.
Chris Youhill
13/03/21 – 06:40
Very good to see you on OBP again Chris. Your comments are always informed and illuminating.
Here is a picture of one of the ex LTE GS type Guy Specials operated by Basil Williams of Emsworth during the 1970s, who then traded as “Southern Motorways”. In the week I “drove” a desk at London Country back then, and, to keep my hand in, I used to do a spot of driving for independents at weekends. One of these was North Downs Rural Transport, which, having taken over the business of A. T. Brady (T/A Brown Motor Services), was then based at Forest Green, Surrey. In March 1972, circumstances left North Downs with a vehicle shortage, and arrangements were made with Basil Williams to hire one of his GS buses. I travelled down to Emsworth on a Saturday with a colleague to collect the vehicle, and we were both less than impressed when the bus we were given, GS 43, MXX 343, was started up. The density of the exhaust smoke would have done credit to a Pre Dreadnought at Jutland, and, even allowing for the fact that the Perkins P6 always sounded like a bucket full of nails being shaken about, the racket from the engine was deafening. We expressed our disquietude to Mr Williams, and I remember his response to this day – “If anyone says that it’s knocking, then you can tell them that it’s just had its Annual”. We set off back to Surrey in the thing, travelling hopefully rather than expecting to arrive, but our minimal optimism evaporated with each passing mile. The bus struggled painfully and overheated repeatedly up the merest of gradients, and it was on one of the recuperative rests to allow it to cool down that I took this picture. Such was the noise of the vehicle when in motion that even ancient rustics spotted walking far in front of us in the distance, whose hearing faculties must surely have diminished over the years, swung round in alarm on our approach. Eventually, after an interminable journey, we arrived back at Forest Green, and I thankfully left for my home at Farnborough. I subsequently learned that, when despatched on service on the following Monday, the GS failed totally less than a mile from the North Downs Depot. By this time, all patience had been lost, and Basil Williams was told in succinct terms to come and collect the vehicle There is so much to tell about Mr Williams and his Hants and Sussex ventures, but I will leave that till later.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
22/09/11 – 06:17
At least he provided a rather nice comprehensive destination blind!
Chris Barker
22/09/11 – 14:02
Ref. the destination blind – yes, I’ve always thought that they seem very bespoke and comprehensive for a country independent. Did they get LT to make them as part of their purchase deal? Also, I’ve got a photo of a GS in Midhurst showing route 21. Did they have a large network or did they route share with Southdown/Aldershot & District?
Paul Haywood
23/09/11 – 06:23
I very much doubt that LTE made up the blinds for the Basil Williams fleet. From its inception, relations between Hants and Sussex and the surrounding major operators – Southdown, Aldershot and Distriot and London Transport – were forever fraught with deep suspicion, and no route sharing would ever have been considered. It was not until the Fowler Act that liberalised Road Service Licensing that Basil Williams was really able to operate free of constant Traffic Court battles with his neighbours. This legislation was beneficial to the industry, which hitherto was fettered by the absurdity of proving need for a service. (The subsequent ridiculous Ridley deregulation Act of 1985 was devised purely to flog off NBC and local authority public transport operations as quickly as possible, and private interest was stimulated by tearing up entirely all the public service obligations placed upon an operator by earlier legislation. Nowadays, operators can run what they like, when they like, and charge what they like for it.) Route 21 ran Midhurst-Heyshott-Ambersham- Selham-Graffham-Petworth, but it underwent several changes throughout its existence. The best book by far on the extremely complicated Hants and Sussex saga is the one by Alan Lambert, and it is worth trying to get a copy. I have seen copies advertised on Amazon and Ebay.
Above is a photo taken in the Emsworth depot on the same day that we collected GS 43. Unfortunately, the yard was deeply in shade, and I have had to “Photoshop” the picture rather heavily to make it usable. From the left may be seen GS 75 MXX 375, GS 22 MXX 322 and GS 43 MXX 343, plus another off camera to the right. It is interesting to note that 22 and 75 were withdrawn before 43, which lasted until 1974, which makes one wonder what state they were in.
Roger Cox
23/09/11 – 17:37
Fascinating, Roger – many thanks. I will certainly try to get a copy of the Hants & Sussex book as they sound to have been a really maverick outfit. However, I’m still intrigued by the high route numbers. Did they really have up to 25 routes?
Paul Haywood
24/09/11 – 07:20
Paul, over the entire lives of the Basil Williams/Hants and Sussex companies, the route numbers went up to the remarkable figure of 51, with some gaps in the sequence, but these were offset by some “A” and “B” suffixes. During WW2, in 1943, a certain Cecil Walling T/A Silver Queen Bus Service agreed to sell his business to Basil Williams. Mr Williams formed a new limited liability company called Silver Queen Motor Services Ltd. and applied, entirely reasonably, for the permit (Defence Permits replaced Road Service Licences during the war) to be transferred from Mr. Walling to his new company. Southdown objected to the transfer, and this objection was upheld, leaving Mr Williams with a new company without any business. The proposed purchase did not then proceed, and Mr Walling retained his permit until he sold out to Southdown at the end of that year. Basil Williams never forgot this episode, and in all his subsequent takeovers of other businesses he formed limited liability companies using the same company names and with the same directors, to whom all the RSLs were transferred without trouble, and then he replaced the old directors with himself and others within his empire. Thus grew the perplexing multiplicity of company names within the Hants and Sussex setup: Hants and Sussex; Liss and District: Southsea Royal Blue; Empress Coaches Stockbridge; Triumph Coaches Southsea; Blakes Tours of Plymouth; Glider & Blue; Glider Coaches; B.S. Williams Ltd; White Heather Travel; Sunbeam Coaches Loxwood; F.H. Kilner; Southern Motorways. Alan Lambert’s book unravels this labyrinthine tale in a masterly fashion, and is a masterpiece of its kind.
Roger Cox
24/09/11 – 11:35
Wow! I’ve just found a copy on Amazon and bought it. Many thanks for lifting the lid sufficiently for me to delve further.
Paul Haywood
25/09/11 – 07:14
Having read my copy of Alan Lambert’s ‘Hants & Dorset’ book again, I’m amazed at the bureaucracy involved with so many parties to do with route applications/transfers, increases/reductions in fares/service frequency, etc and how so much of it was tied up with petty squabbling and so little with giving good customer service. We may not be entirely happy with de-regulation, but it seems, in many ways, a better system.
Chris Hebbron
25/09/11 – 20:39
That is absolutely right ChrisH, permission had to be sought for even the most insignificant alterations, such as to change the starting point of an excursion. All these applications were then published in ‘Notices and Proceedings’ issued by the Traffic Commissioners either weekly or fortnightly, I cannot remember which, to allow any possible objections. Excursions, Tours and Express services had to be licensed in each traffic area they traversed even if they were just passing through! Most of the larger companies had specially printed ‘Notice of Objection’ forms stating their reasons and typically these would be; 1) The application would abstract traffic from existing facilities provided by ourselves 2) The application would cause unnecessary and wasteful competition 3) The application is unnecessary and undesirable in the public interest 4) Generally as may be adduced from evidence given at any public hearing held in connection with the application. Number 3 particularly, I think is quite unbelievable but it was common practice for the larger operators to see themselves as judge of what was best for the passenger and very often this amounted to preventing people from travelling! Even the railways could object and often this resulted in a limitation on the number of vehicles which could be operated, regardless of demand. In whose interest the Traffic Commissioners operated is a matter of debate but it was by no means necessarily the travelling public!
Chris Barker
27/09/11 – 06:41
I see that three of this batch ended up in Travellers hands with predictable results..all destroyed! They are MXX 373,354 and 350. You can see pictures of their fading years here…. //www.travellerhomes.co.uk/?p=9231 From the comments above, maybe they were not missed!
Richard Leaman
27/09/11 – 06:45
For about ten years, I handled almost all the Traffic Court work for London Country, which included acting as advocate for the company at Traffic Commissioners’ Hearings (colloquially known as Traffic Court). Many operators believed that legal representation was required to pursue a case before the Traffic Commissioners – surprisingly, even Geoffrey Hilditch seems to have held this misapprehension. I am not a lawyer, and the only occasions upon which legal representation was employed were joint applications or objections with other operators, and applications for fares increases (which consisted of putting forward loads of statistical and financial bumph proving a need for increased revenue). On all other applications/objections submitted by the company, I was the representative for the company, and usually found myself contesting with solicitors or barristers acting for opposing parties. I won far more cases than I lost, because the main factor was a knowledge of the bus industry and the relevant legislation (mainly the Road Traffic Act 1930, much of which still applied, and the Transport Act 1968). Lawyers, including QCs, didn’t have that knowledge, and their painful ignorance of the subject frequently became clear when arraigned before the Commissioner. Having said all this, I, too, believed that the legislation and procedure was absurdly outdated and loaded in favour of big operators. This was remedied by Norman Fowler’s Transport Act 1980 which deregulated coach services and changed the emphasis of Road Service Licensing in favour of applicants. This made the old practice of blocking competition by objection a thing of the past, but still laid public service obligations upon operators. This was assuredly in the interests of the public. Ridley’s 1985 Act was designed solely to destroy public ownership by privatising NBC and local authority undertakings, invariably at a fraction of the true value. Ridley’s knowledge of the industry could have been written on the back of a postage stamp, underneath the Lord’s Prayer, and he couldn’t have cared less. Total deregulation did not meet the needs of the travelling public, and left us with the overpriced monopolistic shambles that afflicts us today.
Roger Cox
27/09/11 – 11:15
That’s telling it as it is, Roger – but I do agree.
David Oldfield
11/05/13 – 08:59
I have a photo (provided by someone from Reading) of an open charabanc (possibly mid-late 1930s) with the words Silver Queen painted just below the windscreen. Someone has mentioned that there was a company called Cox’s Silver Coaches in Northumberland Avenue, Reading, Berkshire in existence at about that time. Would anyone know if there is a link between the charabanc and the company and if Roger Cox – a contributor to this website – is a descendent of the company?
Jim B-P
11/05/13 – 12:10
Thx, Chris B and Roger, for your comments, which passed me by until now – must’ve been away for a few days. You inner experiences are very interesting and it is definitely a pity that Norman Fowler’s ‘middle way’ didn’t remain. Your comments certainly show up the self-serving nature of the 1930 Act, especially point 3 of the Notice of Objection forms. Of course, the public was quite unaware of what was going on behind virtually closed doors.
Chris Hebbron
11/05/13 – 18:01
I have to disappoint Jim B-P, I’m afraid. I have no familial connections with the Reading area. Continuing the discussion about the 1985 Ridley Act, the big groups are now driven entirely by a lust for huge profit margins to satisfy the City. The primary objective is that of keeping the share price as high as possible. Locally, Stagecoach has left significant communities in Cambridgeshire with limited service or none at all in its pursuit of big margins. Two years ago, the Stagecoach group returned £340 million to its shareholders, with Brian Souter himself taking £51 million, and his sister, Ann Gloag, £37 million, yet the fares increases continue to pile in year upon year. Making a reasonable return is no longer the name of the game for the heavyweights, and the concept of public service has become a joke. Thankfully, some smaller operators still show how it can and should be done. Around here we have Delaine and Norfolk Green, both of whom have stepped in – Delaine in Market Deeping and Norfolk Green in Kings Lynn – where the avaricious national groups have given up their pursuit of their (many) pounds of flesh.
Roger Cox
12/05/13 – 06:58
So, Basil Williams: valiant entrepreneur battling the “big boys” in the interests of the travelling public, or under-capitalised and over-extended and out to make a name/empire for himself – what’s the verdict? To me, there seem to be a lot of parallels between Basil Williams and Julian Peddle: over the span of 20+ years I’ve experienced Julian Peddle’s operations in Burton-upon-Trent, Colchester, and Milton Keynes, and I can’t say I was impressed. It would seem to me – both from the pictures of the GSs (nicely turned out, nice livery, good destination blinds), and from Alan Lambert’s book – that Basil Williams tried to present a “big company” image (Hants & Sussex) without ever having had the resources to back it up. Some small independents did manage to do that quite successfully: off the top of my head – West Wales, South Notts, South Yorkshire, Birch (?) . . . Gosport & Fareham/Provincial was I think the last remaining passenger carrying company of a larger group that had diversified, and Jones (Aberbeeg) and Moores (Kelvedon), whilst substantial concerns, were clearly (and defiantly?) independent.
Philip Rushworth
12/05/13 – 09:30
Ah, Julian Peddle. He adopts the technique of a wholesale business in the bus industry, buying up companies for short periods of operation and then selling them on. Huntingdon can be added to Philip’s list of Mr Peddle’s “successes”, and he is still buying up under the Centrebus banner. Locally, Kimes has now fallen into his clutches, and it shows. I agree that there are some parallels with Basil Williams, but, for all its undoubted faults, the old Road Service Licensing system did act as a brake upon the activities of the less dependable elements in the industry. We now have a complete free for all, with no controls whatsoever upon any buccaneers in the business. Also, unlike the rail, air and holiday industries, the bus passenger now has no protective legislation over fares and services whatsoever.
Roger Cox
13/05/13 – 07:38
I’m in complete agreement with Roger’s comments about the profiteering of the big groups. I was in Torquay at the weekend and when I left there wasn’t a convenient train up the branch to Newton Abbot so I thought I’d take the bus instead. Stagecoach, quite well presented I do admit but when I asked for a single ticket I was staggered to be charged £3.70 for a journey of less than thirty minutes! It appears to be the norm now though, TrentBarton, still technically a private concern, have become one of the most expensive bus companies in England. The tenet seems to be; we provide something akin to a taxi service, let’s charge something akin to taxi fares!
Chris Barker
14/05/13 – 11:54
Chris, I had to make an early morning journey from my village to Biggleswade last week. The vaunted “Busway” vehicle from Peterborough turned up ten minutes late and cost me £3.70 for the nine mile trip to Huntingdon. The punctual train from there to Biggleswade, some 18 miles, cost £5.90. The bus charges 39p per mile (7/10d in real money) whereas the train costs 33p per mile (6/7d). Bring back road service licensing!
Roger Cox
14/05/13 – 17:24
Come and live in Edinburgh where Lothian charge £1-50 any distance and the natives still think they are getting a raw deal!!!.
Philip Carlton
06/01/14 – 07:52
Were any of the GS type ever painted red or was there any planned use in the central area for them?
Colin Rutter
06/01/14 – 17:05
It’s reputed, Colin, that one was painted red, but never went into service. There were a couple of proposals to put them on Central Area routes, but this came to naught. The excellent Ian’s Bus Stop website has the whole story. SEE:- www.countrybus.org/GS/GS.html
Chris Hebbron
07/01/14 – 07:02
The GS fleet of 84 vehicles was way above the actual LT Country Bus requirement in 1953 for OMO (as it then was) buses. At that time one person operated buses were restricted in law to a maximum of 20 passengers, but Traffic Commissioners were empowered to increase this limit to 26 passengers at their discretion, and the GS fleet was so configured. It was rumoured that some of the GS buses were originally intended to form the rolling stock for a reintroduced London “Inter Station” facility that had originally been run by the pre war forward control half decker Leyland Cubs, but this proposal was abandoned. Whatever the truth may have been, in the event, LT had more GS buses than it ever needed.
Roger Cox
07/01/14 – 08:44
I accept that this is purely a personal opinion, but I have always thought that the GS class vehicles were the most handsome and well proportioned buses of all the normal control “little buses” that we’ve known. The secret may possibly lie largely in the combination of the proprietary bonnet/wing assembly and the inevitably delightful ECW bodywork. Despite all this glowing admiration I’ve unfortunately never ridden on a GS !!
Chris Youhill
07/01/14 – 13:34
Oh they’re cuddly and loveable little beasts, with their clatterly, chattery Perkins engines and Chinese gearboxes – and you must put a ride on your to do list, Chris. The Mercedes-Benz Vario is the nearest modern bus but doesn’t begin to compare on character and long-lived quality.
David Oldfield
07/01/14 – 13:35
I agree with you, Chris Y, but it’s clear that LT had a lot of input into the vehicle to get it to the standard they wanted. A&D’s Dennis Falcon/Strachans, were also quite attractive, perhaps greatly aided by the livery. However, the couple of journeys I took on them indicated that they were not so refined as the GS, especially in the ‘engine noise’ department!
Chris Hebbron
08/01/14 – 07:35
They were certainly popular little buses. The existence of so many survivors into preservation confirms their attraction – and comparative ease in restoring and saving them. I have heard it said on the rally circuit that there were only 84 GS’s built, but there are 106 preserved !
Petras409
02/02/14 – 16:37
Philip Rushworth’s comments about H&S are interesting. I understand that one of the reasons for H&S failure was because Basil Williams was quite foresighted.! He believed that there would be a large demand for buses/coaches after the war ended and ordered quite large numbers of both from Leyland and Bedford. Unluckily for him, when they were delivered up till about 1951, the price of fuel and other factors meant that demand for travel began to drop, and he was left with a lot of new vehicles with insufficient work and he had difficulty balancing the books. One result of this was that new PD1s were hired to Cardiff Corporation for I think 1 year, and many coaches were sold after a short life with H&S. H&S also suffered from the licencing system as follows: One of H&S’s companies was Triumph Coaches who successfully applied for Forces weekend leave services licences to the North of England and Plymouth. A number of Portsmouth operators ran coaches to similar destinations in competition with Triumph, without licences as ‘private hire’ including surprisingly Southdown, who did have some licences including London.
Paul Statham
06/02/14 – 16:19
I have owned GS42 since December 1973. It was the last one in service in March 72 on Route 336A. It was sold to Matthew Arnold School, Staines where I bought it. I have rallied it every year since then. I don’t know how many miles I’ve covered in it as like other LT buses of the day it doesn’t have a mileometer, but it’s never let me down (Touch Wood). Yes the engine is a bit chattery but very reliable. It always starts after sitting for a week or so without any assistance, glow plugs or easy start. The bodies are very robust with aluminium panels and frame. Very little wood and just the front bonnet and wings in steel. Rust in those parts can be a problem. Based in Surrey I’ve rallied it in Wales and Scotland and many places in between. 42mph and 18-20 mpg. Slow but economical.
Geoff Heels
07/02/14 – 06:30
It must be a relief you never bought it from Basil Williams, Geoff! I can recall visiting an aunt, with my mother, around 1955. She lived at Gomshall and we took a GS on the 448(?) from Guildford to get there and back. I was impressed, but disappointed it never went straight up the steep High Street! It’s surprising that Perkins are still going vey strong internationally, albeit with an industrial bent nowadays.
Chris Hebbron
07/02/14 – 06:31
Didn’t Southdown take over Triumph in the early 60’s and continue to use their livery on some coaches?
Paragon
18/05/15 – 06:50
I have been a GS enthusiast from more or less since these great little vehicles replaced the Cubs on my local route (490) in 1953. I knew most of our regular Drivers, most of whom put me off outside my front door after Primary School ended for the day. They were The Gentlemen at NF. I got on one morning after I had gone on to senior school, and Sid the driver said “Shut the door please!” The electrics were having an off day! Most of our Driver preferred a GS over an RF as they could tuck the GS in completely in driveways en route whereas it was nose or tail with an RF! Great Days. I wish we could go back to them!
Mr Anon
19/05/15 – 06:08
Ah, Yes, that personal touch. Very rare nowadays!
Chris Hebbron
20/05/15 – 05:53
Paragon is right in saying that Southdown took over Triumph Coaches. They had a separate livery (Blue and Cream)but I don’t know whether a separate subsidiary company was set up or not. The Southdown Enthusiasts’ Club issues many publications and no doubt would have one providing the detail.
Andy Hemming
20/05/15 – 05:54
The personal touch isn’t quite dead. Our next door neighbour drives for a small local company that runs half a dozen rural bus services. He sometimes brings a bus home to wash it! Yesterday, my wife set off in the rain to go to town. The bus stop second from the terminus is a couple of hundred yards away. Neighbour was outside his house, washing a bus as usual. My wife saw this bus turn out of our road, head off to the terminus, then come back a couple of minutes later. When she got on the neighbour said, “Why on earth didn’t you just get on at home?” I am sure this is “strengst verboten” – and hence no clues as to names or location!
Stephen Ford
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
24/12/15 – 06:20
I would reiterate what Roger Cox said. While some licensing control for stage carriage services is obviously necessary to preserve the network ( which is one reason that today the network is not preserved ), the excursion and tour licensing was over regulated and stifled innovation and traffic generation. The situation where a major operator could object to an excursion destination( and restricting linking licences for destinations of limited appeal), even when that operator patently had no intention of offering that destination is reminiscent of the Keystone Cops. The lost opportunities for both operators and the travelling public must be legion.
Malcolm Hirst
24/12/15 – 11:48
I’ve been having another look at this thread, prompted by Malcolm’s comment of 24 December 2015, published at 06.20, and I refer to Chris Barker’s thoughts (13 May 2013) about taxi fares. In one meeting of a Committee of Southampton City Council, my then Manager reported to the team that a Councillor [who was a taxi driver] commented that a Southampton taxi was, mile for mile, more expensive than crossing the Atlantic by Concorde. Now, there’s a thought.
Pete Davies
25/12/15 – 07:57
Pete, on the subject of cost per mile. Wallsend to Newcastle, 3 miles £2-35p = 78p Per mile. Newcastle to Jedburgh, 57 miles £6-10p = 10.7p Per mile
In 1969 Bickers bought two Guy GS buses, MXX 356 and 360 which were GS56 and GS60 in the London Transport fleet. Here is a picture of them in 1975. The following year they were both sold into preservation, though I believe that neither has been seen about in the last few years. Unless you know different that is, you know how to get in touch.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
21/12/11 – 20:05
Give me a big engined AEC or Leyland any day but these big hearted babies are full of character and deserve their place among the preservation greats. These two look a little mat paint/MOD and well used. Even more testimony to their initially build quality – but they look even better in LT/Country green, gleaming on a running day. The modern day equivalent is a Mercedes Vario or IVECO Daily. In the words of one of my choir, who spent his professional life working for Tilling subsidiaries, “I know which ones will last longer.”
David Oldfield
22/12/11 – 06:24
I drove the Tillingbourne examples of the GS in the Guildford area, and I found them to be delightfully robust, positive little machines, though the clanky sounding Perkins P6 engine didn’t impress me very much. The GS was another of those buses with a “right to left” wrong way round gearbox, and I have always wondered who made it. Was it a Guy box, or something from another maker? Also, was it yet another manifestation of London Transport’s flat earth outlook that led it to commission Guy to manufacture a specially designed 26 seat model? Dennis had been producing successful buses of this type for years, and the LGOC had purchased a fleet of around forty Darts in the 1930s. The logical move for LT in the 1950s would surely have been to obtain a P6 powered version of the established Falcon. The GS was (indeed still is – there are lots still around) a really good little bus, but I remain perplexed that it was ever ordered in the first place.
Roger Cox
22/12/11 – 06:25
GS’s were certainly a hybrid ‘special. Based on a modified Guy Vixen chassis, it sported a Perkins P6 indirect-injection, 65 bhp engine, with 4-speed crash gearbox. It was a rare example of London Transport buying an ECW body, which it was supposed to buy in preference to other makes. However, off-hand, I can only think of RFW’s as the other example in post-war years. Even so, LTE put their stamp on it, as it bore a remarkable resemblance to the RF body at the rear.
Chris Hebbron
22/12/11 – 06:26
There are some others from the same batch which survived for a fair time but not in a very good way. See them here www.travellerhomes.co.uk/ At least they had long and useful lives and as David says, they are rather attractive and purposeful souls.
Richard Leaman
22/12/11 – 08:25
As Roger says LT always had some rather odd ideas – the prewar rear engined Leyland CRs spring to mind with only twenty seats AND a conductor !! I too have always admired the little GS class, surely one of the most handsome small buses ever.
Chris Youhill
23/12/11 – 07:00
The CR’s were designed for OMO, but, post-war, with the huge increase in passengers, those OMO routes in Central Area were either abandoned/absorbed into other, busier routes or served by full-sized buses, rendering these ‘babies’ surplus. However, they were spread about and used, as a last resort, to replace full-sized vehicles which had failed, hence the two-man crews. Ill-suited to intensive work, and under-developed, they often crumpled under the strain. I made one journey, on just one, in such a situation. It coped!
Chris Hebbron
23/12/11 – 09:37
Thanks for that Chris H – that’s something I never knew despite owning much bookware about LT – you’re never too old to learn as they say.
Chris Youhill
23/12/11 – 12:11
A nice coincidence is that Leyland’s light 6-cyl diesel used in the CR had the same bore and stroke (3.5″ x 5.0″) as the Perkins P6 used by Guy in the GS. Both engines were indirect injection and shared that light tinkling “threepenny bits” combustion note. The only ride I’ve ever had in a CR was at Cobham (held at Chobham) a few years ago, and the engine sound was remarkably Perkins-like. Another thing I learnt that day: the big-diameter rear hub houses not a double-reduction gear but a universal joint, so the CR evidently didn’t have a beam axle.
Ian Thompson
24/12/11 – 06:36
Douglas Corporation ran some Guy Gs style buses with Mulliner bodywork. They were fitted with large upright destination screens front and rear. This gave rise to their nickname of Wolsey’s camels after the then manager. Douglas also bought what I think are the only Leyland Comets in municipal service.
Chris Hough
24/12/11 – 06:40
Chris Hebbron – re LT buying ECW bodies, there was also SLT 59, (CRL4/RMC4), the first Green Line Routemaster.
Bob Gell
24/12/11 – 06:41
One unusual feature of the CR was a De Dion rear axle, with a universal joint at both ends of the half-shafts. I’ve no idea why it was fitted, maybe to produce a more stable ride for the engine at the rear. Here is a photo and diagram of how it worked (These axles were made from the 1890’s into this century without much change. Sports cars had them, but production cars like the Rover 2000 had it, too). See //www.light-motor-cars.co.uk/
Chris Hebbron
24/12/11 – 09:54
Thx, Bob, for the titbit on SLT 59. ECW must have struggled to meet that order on time! I always thought it looked smart with its framed side lower-deck windows, but had a feeling that the full-width lower rear window looked as if it wasn’t centred properly, or was that my imagination?
Chris Hebbron
24/12/11 – 13:12
There are pictures of SLT 59 on the web including www.londonbuspage.com/ which has this and KGJ 603D which is obligingly pictured from the rear with what also appears to be an off-centre rear window: is this to stiffen the corner by the rear door? Does anyone know anything about the ECW (presumably) system on the VR which sucked all the cig ends and packets out of the upper deck through a port at the back? Now that’s innovation….
Joe
10/11/12 – 06:51
In the 1980s I owned GS 36 it was a joy to drive once you got used to the gearbox, double de clutch comes to mind, sorry I sold it.
Stuart
04/01/13 – 08:51
On 2/5/10 I took the above picture although I cannot remember where I took it. As I had retired to Cornwall in 2008 and was visiting all the shows I can only assume that it was in Cornwall. I used your site to try and identify the model and any other details available and when I selected the Guy GS model found a photo of 2 buses under the heading of Bickers of Coddenham and comments that the picture was from 1975 and with registration numbers MXX 356 and MXX 360. It further stated that the buses had been sold into preservation but not seen in the last few years. As the photo I took has MXX on its plate unfortunately the numbers are hidden. I just thought that it may possibly be one the buses in a new livery so I forwarded it for any information possible.
Warren Farrer
04/01/13 – 13:03
This bus is in the distinctive livery of West Bromwich Corporation, and you can just make out the fleet number 252. The registration would be MXX 340. It was acquired from London Transport in 1961.
Alan Murray-Rust
11/02/15 – 14:03
This is all new to me. I am enjoying the various photos and comments. On the Home page there are photos of the Guy Specials. Although the original contributions were some 3 years ago, the attached may be of interest showing the only GS painted into Tillingbourne blue seen at Rusper on the service to Horsham on 1. 7. 1972. The driver may well be your contributor Roger Cox. Thanks to the driver for the ride.
Keith Newton
12/02/15 – 06:35
Welcome, Keith and thx for your photo. It certainly looks very odd out of LT colours!
Chris Hebbron
12/02/15 – 06:35
No, it’s not me, Keith. MXX 364, ex GS64, was the only GS painted in the then new blue Tillingbourne livery shown in your picture. It was out stationed for a time at Horsham (on a rotational basis with one of the SUs) for the Horsham-Rusper circular route. Although I did drive the SU4LAs on this service, I didn’t take GS64 in its new livery. This was the last GS bought by Tillingbourne (in April 1971) and the last to be operated, being withdrawn in October 1972.
Roger Cox
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
19/02/15 – 07:35
Here is another Tillingbourne GS, MXX 382, ex GS82, seen in Horsham Carfax when ‘On Hire’ to North Downs Rural Transport in 1971. It is in the revised livery initially adopted by Trevor Brown in September 1970 when he took over Tillingbourne Valley from the Trice family who had run the business since 1924. Later, the blue livery shown above in Keith’s picture replaced the maroon, though MXX 382 was never so repainted, being withdrawn in March 1972. North Downs itself, after struggling with low revenues and maintenance issues, finally expired on 17 April 1972, whereupon the Horsham services became part of the Tillingbourne network.
Roger Cox
19/02/15 – 10:34
The history of all the London Transport GS Class can be found at the excellent “Ian’s Bus Stop” website at this link: www.countrybus.org/GS/GSa
Chris Hebbron
24/02/15 – 14:13
David Call is right. Stage was the highest category and the most demanding. Express was in the middle and the lowest category was contract. I worked in the Metropolitan Traffic Area’s PSV licensing team in 1963 and 1964, and I handled very few contract PSV licences. One oddity about the Metropolitan Traffic Area was that it did not handle licensing of drivers or conductors, which was handled by the Public Carriage Office of the Metropolitan Police. Another was that London Transport not only trained their own drivers, but tested them as well!
David Wragg
24/02/15 – 16:12
My original PSV was passed in London in 1967. In 1972 I moved back to Manchester and when my licence came up for renewal I had to surrender my ‘N’ badge for a ‘CC’ one. The new one was a bit slow coming so I went along to the office in Manchester to enquire why. It turned out that the Civil Service Union was on a work-to-rule and they would not issue the new one until they received the 2/6d. deposit on my old one from London. When I protested that I could not work (the law stated that it had to be worn) because they did not trust the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to return my 2/6d the supervisor was called. After some argument, the supervisor’s supervisor was called and nobody could think of a rule that stopped my paying again. They kindly allowed me to do this and promised they would refund me when they received the original deposit. Still waiting… (Maybe I should write to the Prime Minister and Sir Bernard whatsit-Howe about why the south is so much richer than the north!)
John Hodkinson
25/02/15 – 06:02
David Wragg says it was ”an oddity for London Transport to test their own Drivers” Not so, Designated Examiners were common practice in the larger Companies, and Municipal Undertakings, and still are. There was a specified number of Drivers who had to be employed, I think 300, to qualify for one, and the Examiner was not to be the same person as the one who undertook the Training. This was to alleviate the pressure off the Ministry of Transport. In the past there were no separate Department of Transport Driving Examiners, PSV Tests were carried out by the Area Certifying Officer (The Ministry Man). He would re-certify a few vehicles in the morning, and then carry out a few PSV Driving Tests in the afternoon, or visa versa. At Oldham Corporation I seem to recall it was a Tuesday. Also you did not get a pass or fail off him, and no pass certificate. He just said he would make his recommendation to The Traffic Commissioner and you would hear in due course. You did not know if you had passed until your Licence and Badge arrived.
West Bromwich (County Borough of) Transport Dept 1953 Guy GS ECW B26F
This Guy GS Special was attending a West Bromwich running day at the Black Country Museum in September 2014. It was new to London Transport in December 1953 as fleet number GS40 and has an Eastern Coachworks B26F body (number 6386). MXX 340 looks superb and was accompanied by three other West Bromwich buses. This is surely one of the smartest liveries in the country.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
19/04/15 – 11:54
Heartily agree that West Bromwich Corporation had one of the smartest fleet liveries in the country, along with City of Oxford. Rightly or wrongly I was always under the impression that this vehicle was primarily for use of the Social Services Department although it was numbered 252 in the main fleet series, as was a second ex-London GS (251) whose identity escapes me at the moment.
Larry B
20/04/15 – 07:16
The other one, Larry B, was MXX 341, which was 233 in the West Bromwich fleet. It was scrapped in 1972.
Chris Hebbron
21/04/15 – 06:12
I think this is resident at the Black Country Museum. It was certainly in service doing the “round the site” service when I was there last year. Looks good in this livery, but seemed mechanically a bit run down, though OK for what it was doing.
David
06/06/15 – 06:32
David, They had problems with this one on the day that I took the pic. It would not start and remained at rest whilst the other three did the round the site trips.It was good to see, would have been better to ride!
Les Dickinson
07/07/18 – 05:59
It is indeed being used by the BCLM but it is privately owned and had had quite a lot of work done to it including a partial engine rebuild.It is now due for more work in the very near future,
William Parker
18/02/20 – 07:22
As of today, it is still at the Black Country Living Museum and was in service.
Chris Hebbron
08/02/21 – 13:34
The attached photo shows the two GSs in Oak Lane Depot in July 1967, together with the two ex Huddersfield JOC Daimlers (ex 78 & 103, CVG6/Willowbrook) which belonged to the Welfare Services. These two only carry the lighter blue of the standard livery, whereas the two Guys carry the two-tone blue livery of the main bus fleet. BBF 7, third edition of 1967, shows both Guys as being purchased in 1961, with MXX 340 (252) noted has having operated by the Health Department until 1963, at which point it clearly joined the bus fleet. It’s interesting to note that on both the Guys the cream band is the same width right up to the corner pillar rather than than narrowing under the corner light as seen on the main photo.
Recent correspondence about Dodson bodies and John Whitaker’s comment that Hastings Tramways were users of them brought this picture to mind. It is a 1928 Guy BT with 56-seat Dodson body. Thanks to Keith Harwood for his kind permission to use it, and to Chris Youhill for the information that the bus was known as ‘Happy Harold’ and for reminding me that it was fitted in 1960 with a Commer TS3 diesel engine.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roy Burke
15/02/11 – 15:19
These Guy trolleys were the only open top trolleybuses as opposed to later conversions built. They were part of Hastings initial fleet which contained both double and single deck trolleys You Tube has a clip from a Guy Motors film about the opening of the Hastings system available to watch.
Chris Hough
16/02/11 – 06:11
Must be (have been?) fun up there when it dewired….?
Joe
05/04/11 – 05:32
Yes, I agree about de-wiring. I have been upstairs on that vehicle and all the mechanism is within easy reach. It looks very easy to bang your head on when it’s not in use. I tried to imagine being an upstairs passenger during any operation. Also, sitting upstairs on Hastings seafront must have been bracing. Not only that, by the sides upstairs are very low and I think having small children up there could be interesting!!
Richard J. Porter
21/04/11 – 06:13
The Commer TS3 engine is a story in itself. Although it might be assumed that the TS stood for two-stroke, which the engine undoubtedly was, it actually stood for Tilling-Stevens. It was an opposed-piston engine. The bore ran right through the engine and the pistons heads met in the centre, with a crankshaft at each side, which joined at one end to form a single drive shaft. Its post-war development was hindered through lack of finance and, towards the end, most of the parts were being made by hand by TS engineers. I believe it had three cylinders, the rough equivalent of a six cylinder four-stroke engine. At Rootes Group takeover, the engine obviously showed enough promise for development to continue, with the engines eventually being used widely in Commer and Karrier commercial vehicles right through to the 1960’s. The sporty roar from these vehicles was always very distinctive. How sporty the performance actually was, I am unaware, the same with the fuel consumption. I assume the vehicles measured up to rivals well enough, as did the engine, or it would not have continued in production.
Chris Hebbron
21/04/11 – 11:55
Is it my imagination from the mists of time or was it actually the case that the Commer two stroke engine could, on occasion, start up and run backwards ?? I seem to remember that this could occur if the engine had previously stopped at a certain point in the combustion process. This seems a far fetched theory but I seem to recall that it was in fact true.
Chris Youhill
28/04/11 – 06:38
The Commer two stroke was (in) famous for decoking itself when working hard uphill, sending large showers of sparks out of the exhaust. I remember several drivers of Commer two-stroke wagons telling me tales of car drivers flagging them down, when night trunking, to tell them their wagon was ‘on fire’ when it was actually decoking itself. The Perkins R6 engine as fitted to some 1950’s Dodge wagons (of Hell Drivers film fame) were renowned for running backwards and when this happened the rack fell off the governor and the engine raced away and couldn’t be stopped! This engine was not as successful as the P6 version which was a popular choice to convert many petrol engined coaches and lorries of the ’40s and ’50s before chassis manufacturers offered diesel options in their lighter chassis. Perhaps Chris is thinking about the R6 in his posting above.
Eric
06/05/11 – 07:11
Interesting comments from Chris and Eric about engines running backwards. When I worked for West Yorkshire Road Car, Johnnie Berry, a fitter with more than a passing interest in buses, told of a similar experience. He had taken a spare bus up to Harrogate bus station from the depot, as a driver had reported his bus (a Bristol K5G) would not restart at the terminus, due to a flat battery. The driver had however, managed to bump start the bus in order to get back to the bus station. As the affected vehicle pulled in to the ‘layover’ area at the top of the bus station, Johnnie was waiting to take it back for attention. However, the driver – probably out of habit – then proceeded stop the engine. Johnnie shouted at him to leave it running, and the engine, just on the point of stopping, fortunately fired back into life. It was only when Johnnie came to move off that he noticed something was amiss, as the bus attempted to go backwards! Undaunted he tried again with the same result. Putting it in reverse allowed the gentle beast to move forwards, and then Johnnie realised that the Gardner 5LW was running backwards! He said the driver must just have caught the engine ‘on the rock’ as it was about to stop. Johnnie felt that the well-balanced nature of Gardner engines may have ‘helped’ with the ‘rock’ encountered, and was no doubt relieved that his strange experience wasn’t the result of someone putting something in his tea!
Brendan Smith
13/05/11 – 06:40
Eric, comments of the Perkins R6 running backwards reminded me. my Father had dodge trucks in the 1960!s which would run backwards you had to be quick to stop it, one way that did work for him was to put a load of rag up the exhaust pipe to starve it of air. I am now a retired auto engineer. Just looked at my niece’s Renault 1.9 turbo diesel wrecked engine, speed went to max no way could it be stopped. Mechanic said the turbo goes and it runs off the oil in the sump. I can understand that they say it is a common fault. I just wonder if like the Perkins the engines happen to run backwards. Mechanics may not now remember Perkins engines. Just a thought.
Clifford Warren (bunny)
14/05/11 – 07:32
Can be a couple of reasons why engines of the era of Happy Harold’s run away or run backwards. Firstly most engines of that era had oil bath air cleaners, if that was overfilled with oil the engine could draw the oil in with it’s charge of air and burn it as fuel. Or you cleaned the wire gauze in the filter with paraffin or petrol and forgot to substitute oil before you fired up the engine. I believe that the fuel pumps fitted to very early TS3’s had an inline fuel pump that had symmetrical lobes on its camshaft, the cam profile meant that the injector timing was the same in both directions so if the engine got to the point of stall it was feasible to ‘catch’ and run the other way. It is to be hope your inlet manifold melted with the exhaust gases before you reversed your tipper truck over the quarry edge isn’t it!.
Andrew
18/05/11 – 06:38
I remember riding on the top deck of “Happy Harold” when it was running off the overhead as a child in the late fifties and feeling somewhat nervous about the close proximity of everything above. It was nevertheless a memorable experience, and I also rode on it when in summer service soon after the TS2 engine was fitted, chosen because of its relatively quiet performance I recall so as not to detract too much from the experience of riding on a trolleybus. Although I felt a little safer upstairs with the poles no longer doing the job for which they were intended and the rasp of that engine made it clear it was no longer a trolleybus. However, it is still a joy to see it from time to time, and those who work on it to keep it operational are to be congratulated on their efforts. Interestingly I believe the vehicle is owned by Hastings Council which virtually takes its ownership status back to its pre M&D days.
Doug
18/05/11 – 10:17
Its most interesting to hear, Doug, that Happy Harold is owned by the Municipal Authority. It takes me back to my childhood and teenage holiday years, when there was a magical anomaly to the sleek and luxuriously appointed modern trolleybuses having the fleetname “Hastings Tramways Company.” Another delightful feature of the system was the modest humble description, on the destination blinds, of the majestic promenade of Hastings and St.Leonards as “FRONT.”
Chris Youhill
18/05/11 – 11:12
Indeed Chris. I was trying to think of some witty comment regarding the destination “Front” carried on the “front” of the bus. The only one I could come up with was Mitchell’s of Stornoway, some of whose dark blue Bedford SBs would show the destination “Back” (on the front!) – Back being a fairly large village, and terminus for one or two short workings on the route to North Tolsta.
Stephen Ford
08/06/11 – 09:45
I had experience of riding on vehicles with the Two Stroke engines both buses in the form of Maidstone and District’s ‘Contenders’ which were Harrington integral vehicles with Commer two stroke engines and on Northfleet U.D.C. Karrier refuse vehicles (of which two had such engines). The notable thing about the buses apart from the screaming noise already mentioned, was the vibration of the engine on tick over. Every seat in the Contenders used to vibrate when the vehicle was standing still with the engine running (incidentally Paragon Kits of Northampton do a nice 1/76 Resin kit of an M. & D. Contender. Despite the sounds and the vibration, the engines were very powerful and the Contenders had a good acceleration and hill climbing ability (from my recollection superior to the AEC Reliances which they worked alongside on M. & D. routes). The same was true of the refuse vehicles whose performance was far superior to the newer and smaller Perkins engined model.
Gordon Mackley
30/09/11 – 18:37
Stephen, reference your comments about destinations, the trolleybuses of Maidstone showed “LOOSE”, for such a wire bound vehicle it was indeed not the case! I credit the recollection of this to a book I cannot accurately recall, perhaps Trolleybus Trails by J. Joyce. Incidentally Happy Harold is still going strong thanks to the efforts of a small group and attends regularly events around the Hastings area.
Paul Baker
01/10/11 – 06:41
Referring to the Commer two stroke engine problems reminds me that in May 1963, our local coalman took deliver of a brand new Commer lorry (66 SHY) fitted with a TS2 engine. It was his first new purchase having relied on pre War Ford V8 petrol engined lorries which were by then falling apart with rust. The Commer looked splendid in bright red, black and gold but, misery began from almost the first day as it proved a real misery to start in the morning. Every day he ran the battery flat before resorting to the trusty old Ford being brought out to tow the Commer up and down the road until it eventually fired up after which in frustration he revved the poor thing to death! He sold it after only a year for a Thames Trader which ran “like a watch”!
Richard Leaman
26/02/12 – 16:02
It is not commonly known that the Rootes Group were developing a 4-cylinder version of the TS3, the TS4. It was scrapped when Chrysler took over, because it conflicted with a prior agreement with Cummins/Perkins. The TS4 engine, it is said, was far superior in most respects. A few examples survive, despite attempts to have them all destroyed, along with all other evidence. This story is to be found at this link: //www.commer.org.nz/ Another sad story, with an ending similar to that of the BAC’s TSR2 plane.
Chris Hebbron
27/02/12 – 13:47
If, like me, you are fascinated by Dodson bodies of this period, have a look at the same era for Wolverhampton Corporation. I only have books, so cannot submit photos, but they had variants of the Hastings open top Guys, with top covers, and with/without open/enclosed stairs, and also Guy CX motorbus versions with normal bonnets. An absolutely fascinating array of vintage shapes and sizes which were a “bit different”, even at the time!
John Whitaker
01/03/12 – 07:51
I remember Southdown’s Commer Avengers in the late 60’s and early 70’s I drove one of the Harrington bodied examples on a Sunday evening relief to London from Eastbourne in really heavy traffic a journey that took almost 4 hours to cover the 60 odd miles. After suitable refreshment the return journey, running empty at about 22.30, took about 1 3/4 hours with the engine thoroughly decoking itself at full throttle on the Caterham by-pass with what looked like a blowlamp for an exhaust with an impressive soundtrack.
Diesel Dave
01/03/12 – 09:17
I’ve never seen W’hampton Dodson’s, John and there are no photos of them on the web, but it is useful to know that they were somewhat similar to ‘Happy Harold’. The later Brighton ones were similar to the Tilling ST’s in London. Their finest hour was still the one produced for the Sunbeam Sikh and I know that you’re aware of that post. I wonder how Phil Dodson got on with his investigations? He’s not been back yet.
Another evocative, post, Dave, which brings to mind the expression, ‘Went like a rocket! Clearly the local constabulary wouldn’t have stood a chance of catching you up! Two-strokes usually had the repuation of being all noise and no go, but these wonderful engines were not in that league. I had one ride in a Commer lorry when hitch-hiking when in the RAF and was impressed.
Chris Hebbron
01/03/12 – 15:29
Chris, if you type “Guy Motors” into Google, a site comes up with the company history, and there are 2 or 3 photos of the 6 wheel era in Wolverhampton.
John Whitaker
09/04/12 – 06:56
Reverting to the stories of engines running backwards above, it is certainly not unknown for Gardners to do this. During my time at Crosville I recall we had a Scottish Bus Group coach which managed to do this on the quayside at Holyhead. As the governor doesn’t work in reverse, and apparently nobody could figure how to turn the fuel off in time, it literally “ran away” until it blew itself to bits -very expensive!
David Jones
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
02/01/13 – 15:41
Here are two views of Happy Harold operating on Hastings seafront in October 2012 during ‘Hastings Week’, an event to mark the anniversary of the Battle of Hastings with many events taking place.
Newcastle Corporation 1937 Guy BTX Northern Coachbuilders H33/27D
Once again, these photos are from the Newcastle City Libraries Archives. They are pre delivery publicity shots of FVK 109, a 1937 Guy BTX, and were taken at the Northern Coachbuilders works which was located on Claremont Road Newcastle, my records suggest that the vehicle may have been a one off. Between 1936 & 38, Newcastle Corporation took delivery of 70 Trolleybuses, this took the fleet numbers from 40 to 109. They were an assorted mixture, 40 to 43 were two axle Karrier E4 with H56R MCCW bodies, the remainder were all three axle types with H33/27D bodies, 17 AEC 664T – 24 Guy BTX and 24 Karrier E6A. 44 to 77 and 85 to 108 were MCCW, 78 to 84 were Roe, that brings us back to 109. However, the next vehicle I have records for is 112, a 1938 Daimler with H33/27D MCCW body, it carried a Coventry registration, DHP 112, and was the only Daimler in Newcastle’s not inconsiderable fleet, which would suggest that it was originally a demonstrator. If they ever existed, I have failed to find any records for fleet numbers 110 and 111, so perhaps 109 was actually one of three. Changing the tack slightly, I don’t understand the thinking behind this style of body, two axle trolleybuses had a capacity of 56, but despite the extra length these were only 60, with most of the extra space taken up by a second set of stairs, and a door at the front, it seems an awful lot of expense for the sake of an extra four seats, post war vehicles had what I suppose would be called a normal configuration with an open platform and one set of stairs, which gave a capacity of 70.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
05/08/14 – 06:57
Handsome and fascinating vehicle. Unusual that the staircase evidently eats up one seat downstairs, Roe fashion, yet—to go by the position of the handrail seen through the back window—also extends some way across the back of the platform in conventional staircase fashion, suggesting that the platform is shorter from front to back—something also suggested by the smallish rearmost side windows upstairs. The front upstairs bay is also unusually long, yet there’s nothing unbalanced about the whole design, at least to my eye. If only one had survived! Seeing one after another of Ronnie’s posts fills me with envy: what a wonderful variety of characterful vehicles, some run by quite small authorities, bearing bold liveries and stylish lettering, all exuding a real sense of local pride.
Ian T
05/08/14 – 07:06
Newcastle’s pre-war trolleybus fleet was entirely six-wheeled vehicles, ALL with the same basic body design, incorporating two staircases, a front exit with doors and sixty seats. This arrangement was adopted because front exits on trams had been the norm for many years in Newcastle and the trolleybus routes were initially all for tram replacement. The layout was similar to that adopted by Bournemouth Corporation for its trolleys. It may just be coincidence but Newcastle’s livery was also very close to that operator’s, albeit with a much darker shade of yellow as per the cadmium used on the trams. Bournemouth: //farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/ Newcastle: Here’s a digitally enhanced version of Ronnie’s pic of 109: //farm9.staticflickr.com/8464/ Newcastle’s initial 1935 trolleybus fleet was numbered 10-40, extending by 1940 as the network developed to no. 124. As Ronnie rightly states the numbers 110 and 111 were never used, for reasons unknown. Noel Hanson in his excellent history of Newcastle’s trolleybuses offers two theories. One is that 112, a Daimler demonstrator, was coincidentally registered in Coventry as DHP 112 and so NCT thought it prudent to skip from 109 to 112 to keep registration and panel numbers aligned. OR, the reason was an ‘accounting’ allocation of 110 and 111 by Newcastle to other demonstrators that had been borrowed in 1937/38… Whether they actually asked Daimler for a ‘112′ registration on their demonstrator may never be known! Incidentally 109 saw the light of day as a chassis-only exhibit at the 1937 motor show, then being purchased by Newcastle who had it bodied during 1938 to its ‘standard’ trolleybus design by local firm Northern Coach Builders. Although about this time NCB were bodying Daimler COG5 double-deckers for the Corporation, 109 remained the only pre-war trolleybus bodied by NCB – quite different from the post-war trolleybus fleet in which NCB bodied 80 out of 186 vehicles. In the pre-war fleet of 113 pretty well externally identical vehicles, no fewer than four chassis makes (27 AEC 664T, 50 Karrier E6/E6A, 35 Guy BTX and 1 Daimler CTM6) and five bodywork manufacturers (5 English Electric, 5 Brush, 89 MCCW, 13 C H Roe and 1 NCB) were represented. Some kind of record? Looks like Metro-Cammell were very much in favour, again reflecting purchases of motor buses at this time.
Cardiff Corporation 1964 Guy Arab V 6LW Neepsend H37/28R – O37/28R (1976)
This vehicle was new to City of Cardiff Transport in 1964 and is now owned by Cardiff Transport Preservation Group having been donated to them in 2008 by the National Museum of Wales. One of 12 Guy Arab V’s fitted with Neepsend rear entrance body it was converted to open-top by Cardiff in 1976 for use on city tour duties along with similar bus 424 which is preserved in Essex . It is seen in service at the Barry Island event in June 2013.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
09/07/13 – 07:41
There are pictures of the different types of Arab Vs owned by Cardiff Transport on Mike Street’s fleet list covering 1964-72,including no. 424 mentioned above.The original maroon and cream livery suit these buses much better than orange and white.For the fleet list paste the following into your browser:- mikestreet.webplus.net/Cardiff_Bus_Fleet1964-1972.pdf
David Jones
09/07/13 – 11:40
Following its appearance at the Rally, ex-Cardiff 434 was selected to appear at the Rhiwbina Festival (Rhiwbina is a suburb on the northern edge of Cardiff). A lady approached a couple of us who were there with the bus and asked ‘Is this a Guy?’. When we confirmed that it was, she told us that her father had worked for Guy Motors and that she had some photos and documents. Would we like to see them? We most certainly would!
She has now sent me the attached scan of a photograph of Burlingham-bodied Guy coach (28 RRF – or is it 29 RRF? – no. 51 in the Harper of Heath Hayes fleet, very similar to the preserved one that appeared at last year’s Newbury Rally. The lady tells me that her father was George Edgar Harris (b.1917, d.1980), and that he was appointed manager of the export sales department at Guys in 1948. He was appointed to the board of Guy Motors (Pty) Ltd in 1957, and was a director of Guy’s parent company from January 1958 to about 1960. The photograph appears to have been taken during a visit by several potential Guy customers from far and wide to the fleet of a regular buyer of Guy Motors products. As a postscript, I attended the Llangollen Railway’s Classic Transport Weekend on Saturday and was delighted to see ex-Chester Corporation (and now resident of the North West Museum of Transport) Guy Arab IV/Massey arriving to take up its position as one of the three buses on the Glyndyfrdwy-Corwen run. A notice above the front windows upstairs highlighted that it’s now celebrating its 60th birthday. It ran on the service in fine form and is a credit to all concerned. Guy Motors lives on!
Berwyn Prys Jones
12/07/13 – 12:13
The lady who provided the photograph has sent me some additional information:
I should mention that the bus in my photograph (the one you submitted to the website, “old-bus-photos”), is almost identical to a bus in a photograph on page 79 of Robin Hannay’s book, “80 Years of Guy Motors Limited”. The two buses look as though they belong to the same fleet. They both bear the name “Harper”, but the bus in my photo has the number 51 painted on it, and its number plate is 28 RRF, while the numbers of the bus in Robin’s photo are 52 and 27 RRF respectively. Robin’s photo was taken in 1960, and his bus looks more dilapidated than the one in my photo, which I believe was taken in 1957!
Berwyn Prys Jones
13/07/13 – 08:00
Something about this Seagull has struck me as “wrong” – it just doesn’t look “right” from the front . . . but I’ve not been able to put my finger on it. Until now – I just leaned back at my desk and noticed the OOC Wallace Arnold Seagull in the display cabinet above my desk: the headlights are normally above the front beading, with any spot/fog lights beneath – here they’re mounted much lower down at the same level as the spot lights.
Philip Rushworth
29/04/16 – 06:01
According to the new Burlingham body list published by the PSV Circle (B1002) the Guy is thought to be the very last Seagull Mark III.
Cardiff Corporation 1964 Guy Arab V 6LW Neepsend H37/28R
Cardiff took delivery of this Guy Arab V in 1964. The Neepsend H37/28R body was built on frames supplied by the associated East Lancs and ABO 434B was originally closed top but as can be seen has since been converted to open-top for tours of Cardiff City and special events. The reverse livery really does justice to this superb vehicle. It was a popular ‘runner’ at the Bus & Coach Wales 2014 event in Merthyr Tydfil carrying healthy loads on some hilly terrain.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
07/04/15 – 07:05
Thanks for the photo Les. My wife and I went on a BR Merrymaker Excursion from Sheffield to Cardiff in the late 70s. We found 434 on the Cardiff City Tour so we had a very pleasant ride on the top deck – bit cool, I think it was April time.I have some black and white photos taken on the tour somewhere.
Ian Wild
07/04/15 – 07:26
I’ve found this photo I took of 434 back on the 24th June 1977 at Cardiff Central bus station. The only difference between this and the recent photo appears to be the advertisement.
Verwood Transport 1966 Guy Arab V 6LW Northern Counties H41/32F
WTE159D is a Guy Arab V with Northern Counties H73F body (well, she did start her life with Lancashire United!) in service with Verwood Transport. The indicator display has been altered to suit a more rural operation, and we see her in the yard at Mallard Road during an open day at the Bournemouth Corporation transport depot on 22 May 1983.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
22/09/16 – 07:16
This beauty gives one a good idea of what a front entrance Middlesbrough Arab would have looked like. Quite superb in my opinion!
Chris Hough
22/09/16 – 13:21
Thanks, Chris. When Wilts & Dorset took the firm over, they were so impressed that they painted a VR – S suffix so too new for these pages – in Verwood livery. Equally smart.
Pete Davies
22/09/16 – 15:07
I seem to remember that the proprietor of Verwood Transport trained as a driver at Middlesbrough and that’s why he chose the blue livery.
Stephen Allcroft
22/09/16 – 16:42
So, Stephen, a variation on the theme of Managers taking the livery of their former command to their new one – there are several instances in these pages!
Pete Davies
24/09/16 – 07:42
In the early 1980s Verwood was a growing community somewhat neglected by public transport. Hence Andy Wood stepped in to provide services to Poole and Christchurch on different days. As Verwood Transport , he acquired a Leyland PD3 ex Brighton Corporation. This was soon replaced by the Guy Arab shown. Both vehicles and indeed subsequent rear engine vehicles were always worked OMO [as it was known in those days]. The Guy was unique in the area and was much appreciated by passengers and enthusiasts.
Keith Newton
24/09/16 – 07:43
These buses had deep, vertically slatted grilles either side of the destination boxes when they were with LUT. Were they fitted with Cave-Browne-Cave heating equipment when new or were the grilles for some other purpose? Either way, this beautifully presented vehicle has had them removed and replaced with very much smaller, natural air vents.
Chris Barker
24/09/16 – 08:39</EM>< em>
Keith, I wasn’t aware of an ex-Brighton PD3, never having seen it, but I do have a view somewhere in our Editor’s ‘in tray’ of a former BEA Routemaster.
Pete Davies
25/09/16 – 06:17
Unfortunately, due to lack of space following our recent move to a flat, most slides are unavailable at present so I cannot attach an image of the PD3. Likewise the Routemaster which was RMA11.
This subsequently passed to an operator in Leighton Buzzard who used it in full Verwood Transport livery.
After de-regulation, Andy together with Roger Brown [Shaftesbury & District] re-introduced services in the area and I have attached an image of RMA37 in the green livery seen in Christchurch.
Finally is an image of the rebuilt and extended Routemaster RME1 which remained in red and is seen in Salisbury.
Keith Newton
26/09/16 – 10:11
What superb liveries are the blue and green examples shown here. I’m having to pinch myself here to make sure that its not April 1st . Joking apart, I have never heard of the RME extended Routemaster – have you any more details please. Even allowing for the Routemaster’s legendary front and rear modules this must have been quite an engineering feat, requiring longer prop shaft and pipelines of varying sorts.
Chris the last time I saw RME 1 it was on a wedding special in Halifax for a Keighley operator.
Geoff S
27/09/16 – 11:15
Many thanks indeed Roger – I can’t understand how I’d never heard of this ambitious project, and very neatly and professionally executed I must say. I have to be quite honest, when I saw the picture I did think that it was a “spoof”
Chris Youhill
27/09/16 – 16:38
The centre staircase on RME1 is a one-piece grp unit from an Alexander bodied Ailsa.
Stephen Allcroft
28/09/16 – 06:20
I knew of the extended Routemaster Chris (Y), and think it is a fascinating vehicle, but assumed that the conversion would have been carried out by London Transport rather than Shaftesbury & District. It just goes to show that we should never underestimate the ingenuity of the independent operator. Looking at Keith’s photos of the blue and the green Routemasters made me drift off into two of those ‘what might have been’ moments. The blue RMA gives a hint of what Samuel Ledgard’s later purchases may have included, following on from its successful ex-LT RTs and RTLs. The green RMA’s livery is somewhat reminiscent of Leeds City Transport’s (although the upper deck window surrounds and roof would have been in the darker green of course), and could have been one of a batch bought new for use on the Leeds-Bradford 72 joint service with Bradford City Transport. Just idle thoughts I know but…….
Brendan Smith
28/09/16 – 06:21
I notice in the photo at Roger’s second link, dated 2010, that the vehicle has acquired a twin headlamp front.The even window-widths make for a much neater style than the later halfwindow-width extended RM’s.
Chris Hebbron
02/10/16 – 05:37
Just an update for Chris. RME1 was on a two RM wedding special passing through Shipley this afternoon for Red Bus Days of Keighley.
