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Huntingdon Street Bus Station – Part One

At the age of 11, like most healthy children, I started lying to my parents. I was allowed the freedom to travel to Manchester Airport (for the planes) or the city centre (for the buses), but any travels further afield had to be negotiated and in all cases I had to be home by 6pm. This did not fit in with my enthusiasm for buses as friends had already seduced me with tales of far-flung destinations such as Nottingham’s rightly famous Huntingdon Street Bus Station. In December 1964 I finally reached this exotic site at the extreme range of a believable lie (“the bus hasn’t turned up at Ringway, so I won’t be home until sevenish..”), It was well worth the risk.

I’d previously used the X2 limited stop service, operated jointly by North Western and Trent, to visit Bakewell and Matlock. The relatively early first departure (08:15 from Manchester’s Lower Mosley St Bus Station) made these intermediate locations “do-able” within my time limits, but Nottingham was more than three hours away. Even four hours in Nottingham would mean an arrival back at Lower Mosley St at 18:39 and then I had to get back to suburban Sale on MCTD’s service 47. It added up to seven and a half hours of travelling for four hours at the other end. To any non-enthusiast it sounds a little strange, but I used to do the journey quite regularly in 1965 -1969, often continuing to Chilwell, Gotham, or Newark during my four hours in Nottinghamshire. Wherever I was ultimately headed a stop at Huntingdon Street was always an added bonus.

The route from Manchester to Nottingham was equally fascinating, with vehicles from Hulley, Silver Service, and Sheffield JOC visible in Bakewell and those of Silver Service, East Midland, and Midland General in Matlock. More Midland General buses could be noted in Ripley, and then in Ilkeston came the first whiff of the Barton empire with their high frequency services to the nearby Kirk Hallam housing estate. The 08:15 from Manchester finally arrived in Huntingdon Street at around 11:25 (15 minutes early), most crews tearing up the timetable after picking up their final passengers in Matlock. The vehicle (usually a 41 seat Alexander Z type “Highlander” by 1964 – 66) would then park up opposite Platform 4, alongside the buildings almost universally known to bus enthusiasts as “The Tram Depot”. Which they weren’t (and never had been), but we’ll get to that shortly. Before we move on I should explain that Millstone Lane (Huntingdon St to be) actually ran from the NNW to the SSE, but for the purposes of this article will be treated as if it ran North to South and the cross streets from east to west. It’s easier for all of us.

History and Geography

The area of Nottingham where the future bus station would be sited was more than a little bit rough in the Victorian era. The part of the city bounded by Millstone Lane (renamed Huntingdon Street in 1931), King Edward Street, St Ann’s Well Road, Curzon Street, and St Marks Street, was occupied by a mixture of back-to-back tenement buildings and low-rent commercial premises thrown up in a hurry during the Industrial Revolution. The land which became the southern half of the bus station (platforms 1-4) was previously taken up by no less than five dead-end streets of densely populated terraces leading east from Millstone Lane. At their eastern end they abutted against similar housing on four much longer terraced streets leading northwards from King Edward St/St Ann’s Well Road. Running east-west at the northern end of this parcel of land was Curzon Place, which originally ran through from Curzon Street to Millstone Lane until the western half was eliminated and became the central driveway between the northern and southern halves of the bus station.

Poor quality commercial buildings including warehousing, some fairly ramshackle shops, and two pubs occupied the western side of Millstone Lane for the full length of the future bus station. On the eastern side of Millstone Lane, to the north of Curzon Place and to the south of the buildings on the next east-west road (St Marks St), a recreation ground or small park was provided for the benighted tenants of the local slums. This area was created in the late 1850s by a private benefactor who gave the land to the City council. Funds were also provided for the construction of a “lodge” at the northern end of the recreation ground with a clock tower, a kitchen for the production of drinks and snacks, a storage area for tables and chairs (which were deployed in appropriate weather conditions to the paved area outside of the lodge which included a scenic fountain), and residential accommodation for the park-keeper and his family. This was completed in 1860 and known as Lammas Lodge.

Redevelopment is so last century

A major slum clearance scheme removed all of the terraced housing on the streets at the southern end of the future bus station in the late 1890s, the residents being moved to more hygienic estates further out from the city centre. The long dead-end streets heading northwards gave way to an edifice symbolic of the new technological age. Nottingham was in the process of electrifying its tramways and power was needed, both for this purpose and for use in the adjacent residential areas along St Ann’s Well Rd. The north-south terraces were replaced by the St Ann’s Well Road Electricity Generating Station (aka “The Tram Depot”), opened in 1902 along with the electrified line which passed its front doors, The architecture of the two original buildings was identical to that of the city’s new tram sheds at Sherwood (opened in 1900), which may have been the source of later confusion about the buildings’ original purpose. Despite the architectural similarities the St Ann’s Well Road facility contained motor generation units for Direct Current power production rather than anything on bogies. A third building was added shortly before the First World War, adjoining the northern half of the original two structures on their western side. This was built to house the ancillary (road) vehicles needed to maintain the city’s tramways.

Other redevelopment work was taking place in the area. On the south side of King Edward St the Salvation Army built an impressive structure known as The William Booth Memorial Halls in 1915, commemorating the organisation’s founder who had died three years earlier. The building’s bell tower, with its distinctive dome at the top, provided background scenery for many a photograph taken at the bus station’s southern end in years to come.

At this point in time the southern half of the future bus station was vacant land alongside the power station, while the northern half was still a recreation ground although the population it was designed to serve had already been transplanted elsewhere. Things remained in this state until the mid-1920s when the City council decided to redevelop the entire area. The western side of Millstone Lane, between King Edward St and Kent Street (the next side road heading west) was then designated as the site of a new Central Market. This was a very large oblong building with Millstone Lane on one of its short sides. Its longer side took up the entire length of Kent St to its junction with Glasshouse St, the next north-south thoroughfare to the west alongside Victoria railway station. The new market opened to the public in 1928.

Photographer unknown – this image is an enlargement from an uncredited 10 x 8 print I bought in a Nottingham junk-shop about 30 years ago.

In this mid 1930s aerial shot Huntingdon Street is running from south (top right) to north (bottom left). Slightly to the left of centre at the top are the William Booth Memorial Halls with the distinctive bell-tower, situated on the corner of King Edward St and Bath St, and a Nottingham Corporation trolleybus is visible turning into Bath St. At this junction King Edward St continued to the left as St Ann’s Well Road. The power station buildings are visible on the left hand side of the photograph, the shorter one alongside the bus station being built after the other two to house maintenance vehicles. By the time of this photograph it was already in its second incarnation as a covered municipal car park. The remains of Curzon Place are out of shot, but the north (bottom) end of the power station and the dividing driveway between the two halves of the bus station indicate its original alignment. Just out of shot on the left hand side is the distinctive Lammas Lodge. On the right hand side of the photograph the extremely large building is the Central Market, bounded by King Edward St, Huntingdon St, and Kent St which divides it from Huntingdon House to the north. The change of roof-line level in the middle of the Kent St side of Huntingdon House marks the site of the Dutton’s bus garage, later used by Trent. Continuing downwards on Huntingdon St, Rick Street is on the side of Huntingdon House closest to the bottom of the photograph. Across the road a vacant lot is just visible at bottom left. This helps to date the photograph as this lot became the site of the new Barton Transport building and garage in 1939.

And now (you might be glad to hear!) we finally get to the bus station. Until 1929 Nottingham had no official municipal bus station. Most operators (including the council itself) used street stands while others clung to their private parking grounds to avoid the need for licences from the council’s Watch Committee. The bus industry, however, was booming by the late 1920s and a similar rise in the number of goods vehicles and private cars entering the city was contributing to severe congestion. Shortly after the formal opening of the market the council announced the establishment of a new “Central Bus Station” on the opposite side of Millstone Lane. The derelict land alongside the power station became its southern half (platforms 1-4), the western half of Curzon Place was closed to traffic and became its central east-west driveway, and the redundant recreation ground was paved over to become the northern half of the bus station, consisting of platforms 5-8 and a parking area to the east which stretched from the power station’s northern edge over to Lammas Lodge (which survived the elimination of the park it had been built to serve). Pedestrian access from the truncated Curzon Place to Millstone Lane was provided by a public footpath which skirted the northern edge of the new bus station site, passing Lammas Lodge. The end of the surviving half of Curzon Place will be familiar from many photographs taken in the bus parking area. To the south, adjacent to the power station on St Ann’s Well Road was a small car park at the back of the New Empress cinema (a bingo hall in later years). The original Empress on King Edward St had been demolished to make way for the Central Market and the new site offered in part compensation. On the north side of Curzon Place a fairly modest two storey building had a large sign on its gable end proclaiming it to be the premises of the Nottingham Butchers Products & Casing Co. In pre-war years it had been owned by a dairy products wholesaler called Colton.

The new bus station opened in late 1929, but despite extensive research over the years I have never been able to pin down the exact date. Any offers? Almost all of the non-municipal bus services had relocated to the bus station before the end of the year. Barton was particularly enthusiastic, having previously used three separate sites scattered around the city centre, and the Barton family sometimes claimed credit for the creation of the new facility as their founder had first suggested the idea in 1926. To be honest, it seems doubtful that nobody thought of the idea before him. The establishment of the bus station gave further impetus to the redevelopment of Millstone Lane. In 1930 work began on a major new office building on the block between Kent St and Rick Street (the next side street to the north). This was completed in 1931 and named Huntingdon House to reflect the new name of the street which it stood upon. The council had redeveloped Millstone Lane itself by merging it with St Michael’s Road (to the north) and Cross Street (to the south) to create what would later be termed an “inner city relief road” under the new name of Huntingdon Street. The bus terminal continued to be known as the Central Bus Station until 1943 when the opening of a second facility at Mount Street required a more specific title for the first.

Trent Motor Traction became the first tenant of Huntingdon House, using the ground floor unit at the corner of Huntingdon St and Kent St as a booking office. Other tenants were slower to arrive due to the economic turndown of the Great Depression, and for many years the entire frontage of the building carried “Trent” signs above the unrented ground floor units as if it was wholly theirs. By the late 1930s tenants had been found and introduced their own shop signs. Meanwhile Trent had also secured a small garage in the area by the purchase of Dutton’s Unity Service in 1935. This brought a frequent service to Sutton-in-Ashfield (which became Trent route number 84) and the lease of Dutton’s garage on Kent Street, facing the Central Market. Despite having an existing (and much larger) Nottingham garage at Manvers Street, ten minutes walk away, Trent retained the Kent Street premises until at least the 1960s.

Trent’s new premises in Huntingdon House and Kent Street seemed to spur two other operators into action. Barton built their own premises (including offices and a garage) on Huntingdon Street between Rick Street and the next side road to the north, Howard Street, and this opened in 1939. Not to be outdone, Robin Hood Coaches moved their head office and garage to new premises in Huntingdon St in the same year, occupying the site on the far side of Howard St. In the kind of dreadful terminology used by present-day urban planners, Huntingdon St had become “The Bus Company Quarter” with the offices and garages of all three operators visible from the bus station.

In Part Two of this article I will be completing the history of the bus station between 1939 and 1964 and then giving a platform by platform tour of the Huntingdon Street I knew from personal experience. If you can contribute any photographs taken at the bus station between 1964 and 1971 they would be very much appreciated.

Neville Mercer
09/2015

To read part two Click Here

15/09/15 – 10:36

Very interesting, Neville, although I’ve never been to Nottingham; indeed large, or even small bus stations seem to have eluded my life, apart from Preston. Were they more of a Northern thing? There is some information and some more photos at this link: http://nottstalgia.com/forums/

Chris Hebbron

17/09/15 – 06:08

Great article, Neville. I’m looking forward to the next bit.
Well, Mr Hebbron, I have at least managed to visit Nottingham on two occasions, one a school trip to Trent Bridge and the other for a cousin’s wedding. No, young Sir, bus stations are not just to be found in ‘northern’ areas. Amesbury, in the depths of Wiltshire, has one! Other places in this area include Fareham, Gosport and Portsmouth. Lymington and Salisbury have closed in the last couple of years. Down in the south west, Tiverton has one.

Pete Davies

18/09/15 – 05:59

I could have put it more clearly, Pete, but I was really concentrating on large bus stations, like Nottingham and that awesome video of the last bus departure at Sheffield Bus Station in the 80’s! Portsmouth’s modern one is a shadow of the municipal(trolley)buses just parked in the road adjacent to it up, until harbour reclamation made the new station possible. Southdown’s was just a row of buses along the sea front at South Parade Pier. No bus stations and no conveniences at all! Gosport/Fareham/Guildford/Pool Valley, Brighton were modest, by comparison. Even today, Gloucester has one with about 10 bays and Cheltenham a strange half-hearted one rooted in the late 1940’s, minus any facilities, in a cramped semi-circle only half-used and other buses stopping elsewhere in an adjacent street. Finally, London had certain places where routes conglomerated by ending/passing by, that you could call termini, but not actual bus stations that I could recall up to the 60’s and some that I’m still aware of have not changed. Victoria Rail Station forecourt was/is probably the one exception.
It raises the question; what is the most outstandingly good bus station, architecturally, that anyone is aware of, even if it has now been demolished? Something of St Pancras or even impressive art-deco standard might be asking too much, but we some of us must have come across something that stands out. Worst ones can also be mentioned. My worst one was the Midland Red one which formed part of Birmingham’s Bull Ring, a vast semi-underground edifice with no windows, sparse fluorescent lights about 30 feet above the ground, dangerously narrow islands and a permanently wet floor and damp atmosphere. it rarely seemed to have more than three or four buses in there, although it probably had capacity for about thirty. It’s gone now, unlamented and forgotten by all, even by me, until a few minutes ago! Will I ever recover from this sudden nightmare memory???

Chris Hebbron

18/09/15 – 10:17

No worries, Chris. Go and sit in a darkened room and keep taking the tablets.

Pete Davies

The north v south divide ?
Hants and Dorset had a large bus station in Bournemouth, with all the facilities to be expected, following the 1959 rebuild even a ‘proper’ restaurant. H&D also had bus stations ‘with facilities’ such as toilets, enquiry offices and the like at Poole (although the actual stops there were along the road, rather than on a dedicated piece of land), Southampton and Winchester. Further to the west, bus stations ‘with facilities’ come to mind at Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth, Camborne, Truro in the Southern/Western National area; to the north of the H&D area, Bristol Omnibus had stations at Bristol, Bath, and Gloucester ( larger than the present arrangement); whilst Wilts and Dorset had bus stations at Salisbury, Andover, Basingstoke and Amesbury; to the east, Southdown at Chichester and Lewes come to mind. There were others, of course.
Being from the ‘south’, on visits to the ‘north’ my impression was rather different to Neville’s !! On making a first visit to Dinnington, (south Yorkshire) and the timetable saying ‘bus station’, I looked for a structure similar to those found in my ‘home’ area. Eventually I found the bus shelter (or was it 2) that were the relevant location. From memory, the bus stations in some ‘Woollen District’ towns, like Dewsbury and, I think, Heckmondwike,were of the same style. In Sheffield, Pond Street in the 1960s looked rather like a collection of huts – not an ‘imposing facility’ suitable for a large city. Similarly, on the other side of the Pennines, Lower Moseley Street or Piccadilly in Manchester also seemed like a set of bus shelters – again not a ‘proper bus station’ as I was used to find in H&D territory !!
In truth, I think there were some good bus stations ‘up north’ and also ‘down south’ – and some pretty dismal provision in both as well. (in the H&D area, Woolston was pretty sparse!).

As to ‘iconic’, maybe the 1930s architecture of the original part of Bournemouth’s bus station would be a candidate – image attached is from a commercial postcard of the period in my collection, whilst the post rebuild horseshoe platform worked well – no reversing from sawtooth bays, and a continuous sheltered walkway / waiting area for passengers, separated from moving buses.

Peter Delaney

19/09/15 – 06:21

With reference to Chris Hebbrons comments about the best and worst Bus Stations. I recently obtained pictures of the ‘New’ Bus Station at Feethams, Darlington, Co Durham, operated by United Automobile Services Ltd. This was opened in 1962 and replaced open stands previously situated in the Leadyard.
The new Bus Station when opened was completely roofed over and had a central heating system, with 15 departure platforms. A ventilation system kept the air, fresh and free from exhaust fumes, at least this was in the early years.
It quickly gained a reputation, for being a somewhat ‘smelly and unpleasant place’, as the building doubled as a Garage, and maintenance facility, with a workshop with 3 pits for inspection and repairs, as well as the Bus Station.
Passenger facilities consisted of an Enquiry Office, a Left Luggage Office, Toilets, and a CafÃ¨. Above which were the offices of the Area Traffic Superintendent, and his staff. 60 vehicles could be housed in the Garage.
The ‘Darlington Bus Wars’ after de-regulation, meant that the use of the Bus Station decreased to mainly National Express, and Excursion, and Holiday coaches, with Service buses increasingly using street stands.
After numerous planning applications were submitted to the Borough Council (who owned the land and building) it granted planning permission for a Hotel, Leisure Facilities, with various Restaurants and Quick food establishments, and a Multiplex Cinema.
After serving the travelling public of Darlington for 47 years, demolition took place in 2009, and the land was used as a Car Park until building commenced in 2014.

Stephen Howarth

19/09/15 – 06:22

My own recollections of Huntingdon Street are limited to a couple of return trips I made from Newark by W.Gash when visiting RAF Swinderby on an ATC summer camp in 1961. My pictures of Gash Daimlers taken in Huntingdon Street may be found elsewhere on OBP – the Freeline shot clearly shows the William Booth Memorial Hall in the background. In terms of sheer variety, this must surely have been one of the most engrossing bus stations in the land. Chris H has raised the question of nominating the worst bus stations. Yes, I agree about Birmingham Bull Ring, but Northampton Greyfriars was every bit its equal in its representation of Hell. Others that come to mind include the one at Reading, and the abomination at Corby (with its ineradicable aroma of reprocessed late night liquid refreshment). Of the better ones, I always liked the old bus stations at Aldershot and Guildford Farnham Road, both now gone under “development”, surely one of the most misapplied words of the age.

Roger Cox

19/09/15 – 06:23

I took a walk round to Huntingdon Street a couple of year’s ago: the Barton depot was still recognisable (and, taking out the space occupied by the ground-floor booking offices, surprisingly small), the Robin Hood depot still existed, and I’m pretty sure Huntingdon House was there – although I was looking for a bus depot as I didn’t realise the Trent depot was down a side street. I can’t remember what was on the bus station side. I’m in Nottingham in a couple of weeks time, so I can have another look with the benefit of Neville’s article to guide me . . . or, as I’ve just realised, I could do it all tonight with the help of Google Streetview.
Regarding YWD bus stations: Dewsbury and Cleckheaton were (at least until they fell into decline in the 1970s) pretty substantial affairs with crew rest-rooms, tobacconists, and enquiry offices; Batley and Ossett were pretty grim, being a few islands of pre-cast concrete shelters, although Batley did have an enquiry office until the mid-70s(?); but Heckmondwike never has had a bus station.
Nelson bus station reminded me, in one respect at least, of Bull Ring Bus Station – narrow platforms without any railings, and in Nelson’s case serving both sides . . . at least, although it was under a multi-storey car park, it wasn’t as fume-ridden as Bull Ring. A new bus station has replaced the Nelson facility, but the old bus station still exists preserved exactly as the day it closed.

Philip Rushworth

20/09/15 – 06:47

There was more than one Nelson bus station, Philip! Down in South Wales there is also a Nelson which was once served by Caerphilly, West Mon, Pontypridd and Gelligaer as well as Red and White. It was quite a small affair and built on the site of the Pontypridd to Nelson & Llancaiach railway which once ran in a cutting here.
As you can see from the photograph the bus station was a fairly basic affair and despite the impressive list of operators not actually all that busy – the four municipalities had all been involved in the purchase of local operator Commercial Motor Services of Treharris. The joint operation that ensued saw some of them only appearing on certain days of the week. By the time of my photo (1978) it was served by Rhymney Valley, Islwyn and National Welsh.

David Beilby

31/10/15 – 08:16

The question about large bus stations being largely a northern feature is interesting.
To a large extent it is a result of the way population is spread around, but there is also to some extent the question of how individual local authorities reacted to providing for bus services.
The south of England has generally fewer really large towns and cities where a large bus station might be required. Bristol, the largest, managed with on street stops for local services, and essentially all the larger places were surrounded with rural areas where lower density of traffic meant that even quite extensive networks could be catered for with relatively small bus stations or a series of separated on-street locations.
By contrast, consider the number of places served from somewhere like Pond Street in Sheffield and their populations, with high frequency services and large passenger volumes.
Of larger bus stations in the south, Bournemouth has already been mentioned, but the one large one that comes to mind – partly because it was used by city services as well as longer distance ones is Cardiff, illustrated as attached in 1969.

Alan Murray-Rust

02/11/15 – 06:33

I paid a visit to Nottingham a couple of weeks ago, and had a poke around the Huntingdon Street area – it’s eerily deserted these days, hard to think of it as a public transport hub really. Huntingdon House is still standing, but completely anonymous (I suppose it might be used for office accommodation), as are the Barton and Robin Hood depots – last time I visited (about 5 years ago) the doors to the Barton Depot were open, and behind the elaborate frontage/offices it is really quite a small depot; the doorways to Robin Hood depot have been modified to take metal roller-shutters – it might still be in use, but there were no signs of life – but they weren’t overly wide and access onto the narrowish public road must have been tight as vehicle sizes increased. Trent’s Kent St depot has been demolished, but the replacement building appears to follow the same roof-line, and seems to have a mews/carriage-entrance roughly where the depot entrance would have been.
Neville’s article got me thinking – did many towns boast three bus stations? Well, I think Guildford did until the current Friary Centre bus station was built (and am I correct in thinking that the mixture of end-on bays and that line of run-through bays at the “top end” [the ones that look a like an after-thought] were a result of LCBS drivers refusing to use the end-on loading bays?), Glasgow? Liverpool? Manchester? all might fit the bill . . . Leeds, Newcastle, and Scarborough could muster four, if you include the coach stations in Leeds and Newcastle (which in Leeds’s case also serviced the coastal limited-stop services). Any more for four?/advance on four??
Didn’t Leigh boast two bus stations at one time – one LUT, one municipal? Was that the smallest town with more than one bus station??

Philip Rushworth

03/11/15 – 06:37

Another town with three bus stations was Doncaster. North andSouth bus stations were both underneath multi storey car parks whilst the favourite of many enthusiasts was Christchurch , the home of a number of the many Doncaster independent operators.

Andrew Charles

03/11/15 – 14:55

Three Doncaster Bus Stations: up to a point, Charles but you need to go further back! For many years there were Marshgate and North Bridge in the north and Waterdale in the South. Christchurch was really a streetside bus terminus, I think, in which it joined a few other spots around town used by the Corporation. Only North Bridge was wired for tracklesses (to use the local parlance). The revealing thing is that Doncaster did not have north-south through routes as the A1 was so slow through the town that you might as well walk it. Only later were bus stations built for troglodytes.

Joe

04/11/15 – 06:31

All of this talk about Doncaster! In the really dim and distant past, the opposite end of the Trent 64/East Midland 36 from Nottingham Huntingdon Street, was Doncaster Glasgow Paddocks. Where was that, and how did it fit into this plethora of bus stations?!

Stephen Ford

04/11/15 – 06:31

Before the present Friary bus station, Guildford had two bus stations, both of which were opened in 1950. The first was at Onslow Street, a basic tarmac area with minimal facilities, next to the old 1901 Dennis Factory now known as Rodboro Buildings. Onslow Street was intended to be a temporary bus station, and a more substantial facility was constructed just the other side of the River Wey at Farnham Road, the two being linked by a pedestrian footbridge. Onslow Street was supervised by London Transport whose departures from there predominated. Farnham Road was managed by Aldershot & District whose extensive network served much of local Guildford and radiated beyond into West Surrey and Hampshire. In the event the intended expansion of Farnham Road never took place, and Onslow Street remained in use right up to the time when both bus stations were engulfed in the brutalist new bridge construction that now defaces central Guildford as part of a misconceived gyratory system. Whilst the old Friary Meux brewery site was being redeveloped as (inevitably) a covered shopping mall, buses were dispersed to other streets, mainly Commercial Road (the location of the current Friary bus station) and Millbrook, and some A&D routes ran from the much reduced Farnham Road site for a while. There is now talk of closing Friary bus station (to extend the Friary shopping centre) and relocating public transport to Bedford Road, away from the commercial centre of the town. As ever, the lowly bus passenger barely registers on the social scale with local authorities.

Roger Cox

04/11/15 – 16:02

There’s a poser Stephen: some call it Waterdale Bus Station, others Glasgow Paddocks. I think that Waterdale Bus Station was in Glasgow Paddocks, which were originally fields. Long distance coaches such as United to London left from Waterdale itself, opposite, but this was less a bus station, more a parking area. Any advance…?

Joe

Phillip Rushworth asks whether anywhere had more than four bus stations.
In fact, for a time until the early sixties, Leeds had five:-
Starting from the Wellington Street Coach Station 1) facility which, as he states, serviced express coach services and certain West Yorkshire long distance bus routes to the East Coast, and proceeding in a clockwise direction:-
2) Rockingham Street Bus Station which serviced a few LCT routes to the north and west of the city.
3) Vicar Lane Bus Station which was used by all WYRCC services into the city apart from service 34 to Otley, and Ilkley. United Automobile, EYMS and Sam Ledgards buses could also be found here on the services they shared with West Yorkshire.
4) Central Bus Station, used by LCT for all terminating routes from the east of the city and most from the north and west. Additionally, this is where T Burrows and Son, Kippax & District and South Yorkshire Motors routes started, most West Riding Autos began and where you could find the occasional Yorkshire Traction or Sheffield “C” fleet bus on route 67 which they shared with West Riding, to the latter named city.
5) Finally, there was the Cross York Street Bus Station used solely by West Riding on their “red” routes (tram replacement services) to Rothwell, Wakefield and Kettlethorpe.
I’m not sure which of (2) or (5) above Philip forgot. In fairness, the Cross York Street establishment was purpose built and, though small, adequate facilities were close by whereas the Rockingham Street site was no more than a street with barriers at four(?) stops where crews took their rest.
Finally, could I nominate Talbot Road Bus Station in Blackpool as Britains worst Bus Station? Purpose built with a car park above, it was dark and gloomy, seemed to retain all fumes produced (not just from the buses!) unsafe for passengers who were supposed to wait along one side of the ground floor whilst buses drove in, parked and unloaded before loading, and had a resident flock of unhouse-trained pigeons and seagulls.

Steve Crompton

09/11/15 – 06:49

Steve, it was Rockingham St that I had overlooked. So that’s five for Leeds – not to forget the YWD/Hebble routes that were quarantined to the Queen St/Sovereign St areas . . . and, as you mentioned, the Cookridge St stance for the Ledgard/WY services towards Otley through Bramhope.

Philip Rushworth

Northern General Transport’s PD3/4s

In 1958, the Northern General Group took delivery of 53 Leyland PD3/4 vehicles. To the best of my knowledge, they were their first 30ft double deck buses; they were also the last rear entrance, although not the last half cabs, that particular label went to the Routemasters of 1963/4. I know a few half cabs were drafted in post NBC, but that was after the lunatics had taken control of the asylum.

The independence NGT allowed its subsidiaries in vehicle choice and specification has been discussed before on this site, and here is another example.
13 were ordered by Sunderland District Omnibus YPT 286 to 298; 286/298
They were primarily bought for use on SDO’s longer routes, and had Burlingham H41/32RD bodies, and very smart they looked in the understated Navy blue and white livery.

The remainder were all H41/32R MCW Orion bodies.

3 for Tyneside NNL 48 to 50; 48/50 Sage green and cream.

5 for Gateshead & District HCN 475 to 479; 75/79 Chocolate and cream.

20 for Northern YPT 825 to 484; 1825/1844 BET red and cream.

12 for Percy Main of which ten AFT 224 to 233; 224/233 for Tynemouth & District and two
AFT 234 and 235; 234/235 for Wakefields Motors Ltd. All twelve in BET red and cream.

I think its fair to say that the Orion would not be everyone’s first choice for favourite body, and the least said about the early ones the better. However, lessons were learned and these 1958 versions were a vast improvement on those on the earlier Guy Arab’s and Leyland PD2’s. As was the practice with Gateshead and District, theirs had a Newcastle Corporation style destination layout, but that and different liveries apart, outwardly, all the Orion’s looked to be pretty much the same. The interiors were finished in brown with Rexene covered seats. However, the 12 for Percy Main were finished to a much higher interior specification, as well as a different colour, ‘green’ they had moquette upholstered seats. Shortly after delivery, the front number plates were moved from the radiator to the front panel below the windscreen. AFT 930, had an extended life as a driver training vehicle, and I’m pleased say that it has survived into preservation, and is currently in the extremely capable hands of North East Bus Preservation Trust Ltd where it is undergoing extensive restoration. There was also a Sunderland District Omnibus example ‘YPT 289’ which was listed as awaiting preservation, but it seems to have dropped off the radar, does anyone know anything about it?

AFT 229 fleet number 229 is pictured above round the back of Percy Main depot, and looks to have just arrived from MCW, but in fairness, their vehicles were always well turned out, but this was in an age before ‘pride’ became an outdated idea that was surplus to requirements.

Ronnie Hoye
01/2016

28/01/16 – 09:55

‘The front number plates were moved from the radiator to the front panel below the windscreen’.
I have often wondered why, when the majority of operators were content to have the front number plate in the traditional position below the radiator, some chose to locate them in odd places.
Below the cab windscreen might have been something to do with better visibility than down at ground level. But why have them up on the waistrail, beneath the destination indicator? Southdown had consecutive batches of buses in this period with number plates ‘up there’ and blow the radiator. So there seems to have been no company policy.
And Barton was famous for putting adverts down below the radiator ‘Parcels by Bus’, for example, with the number plate high up on the body. Clearly, they weren’t worried about road dirt obscuring the number plate, as it would have been their own advert that would have been obscured.
Was it to do with identification of buses in the depot? Then surely prominent fleet numbers would have been the answer and operators have total control of where these are sited.
Does anybody here know the reason ?

Petras409

28/01/16 – 11:39

Usually when operators moved the number plate from the radiator onto the bodywork it was to allow radiators to be swapped from one bus to another without having to swap the plate as well.

John Stringer

28/01/16 – 16:08

YPT 289 is included on the NEBPT’s list of preserved buses with a North-East connection, dated 27/2/14, and that seems to be regarded as the ‘current’ list. It’s given as awaiting restoration, with owner Ritchie, Peterborough.
Is there reason to suspect that its status has recently changed?

David Call

29/01/16 – 07:11

I find it fascinating to note the allocated registration series of these buses. Clearly Northern General allowed it’s subsidiaries to use their local office for their particular batch, so we have, AFT, HCN, NNL, and YPT. One (AFT) is just starting a three letter forward series, one (HCN) is about a third through, one (NNL) just over half-way, and the other (YPT) is the last in a forward series, about to start reverse issues. Quite fascinating when all these issuing offices were in the same area! No doubt that all changed in the 1974 sort-out.

Michael Hampton

29/01/16 – 17:35

Yes Michael, prior to 1974, apart from vehicles acquired by way of a takeover, all vehicles new to United, were registered in Darlington ‘HN’, whereas NGT group vehicles were registered in several different authority areas. Vehicles new to Tyneside were Northumberland ‘JR-NL or TY’ Tynemouth & District and Wakefields Motors were Tynemouth ‘FT’. SDO were County Durham ‘PT or UP’ and Gateshead & District were Gateshead ‘CN’. A handfull of Northern vehicles were registered in South Shields ‘CU’ the remainder were all either Gateshead or County Durham. Strangely enough, Sunderland had two registrations, ‘BR & GR’ but neither seem to have been used by the NGT Group

Ronnie Hoye

LUT School Bus Services 1960’s

(Culcheth, Lowton, Golborne and Newton-le-Willows area).
Although I have books on Lancashire United Transport, and also have seen an excellent article in Buses Illustrated No.205, April 1972 entitled ‘Chat Moss Today’, which apart from normal services in that area details the numerous services operated to Risley United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, I have never seen anything about school bus services and would just like to add my recollections of my schoolday travels with LUT on this excellent site.
I attended Newton-le-Willows Grammar School from 1963-1968. Sadly it is no more, having like so many others of that period (disgracefully) first been ‘comprehensified’, then the relatively new buildings (1930) and extensive playing fields in a lovely area obliterated, by the government of that time in the 70’s. All that remains to show it ever existed is a road on a new housing estate called Harrison Drive just off Crow Lane East. (Mr. Harrison was the first and longest serving Headmaster at the school from 1930-1964.)
Service buses passing the school on Crow Lane East were the 39 Manchester-Liverpool, the 52 Leigh-Ashton, 53 Warrington-Ashton, and the 62 Newton-Ashton. The circuitous hourly 64 Newton-Marian Avenue (Newton Common) via Belvedere Rd. housing estate also passed and turned off Crow Lane East up Queens Drive which was opposite the school approach drive. Other schoolday buses-non-private i.e. the public could use them – were a single-decker which proceeded to Earlestown Market via the 52 route then onto Burtonwood via the 65 route; a bus from Lane Head via Golborne to Newton and Earlestown; duplicate 39’s between Leigh and St. Helens; a 53 from Warrington at 08:20 – Earlestown, with a ‘strange’ return working at 16:05 in the afternoon from the school. Strange because it’s destination always showed Rubery Owen, an engineering works near Penketh Lane Ends, west of Warrington. This was always one of the # BTF or # DTF registered Duple Tiger Cubs. (This later would return from Rubery Owen as a works journey about 5pm and travel to Earlestown via Wargrave hence the use of a single decker to fit beneath the Park Road North bridge under the Liverpool-Manchester line. (like routes 61/63)
No doubt it’s crews used the Rubery Owen instead of the Warrington destination to deter any further would-be passengers after leaving the school! From the school it would never turn into Southworth Road (Newton Station) bus stops as the regular Warrington service would but would stop outside the Leigh Arms on the main road. Then in Warrington, after it’s no doubt comfortable speedy 15 minute drive from Newton via Winwick it wouldn’t terminate at the Central Station stop, but turned immediately right into Tanners Lane and disgorged it’s passengers there, like the 309/319 etc. Southport-Warrington services did before they proceeded past Bank Quay station and on to their terminus at Arpley bus station (former railway station).
It was then free to run out of service via Froghall Lane and Priestley Street to Liverpool Road and thus to Rubery Owen.
Now to unadvertised school contracts to Newton Grammar.
Lancashire County Council, as it then was until 1974, now Newton is in Merseyside, contracted LUT to provide school buses from the Culcheth, Risley, Croft, Kenyon and Lowton catchment area to the school. Destination always showed PRIVATE of course as only school pass holding pupils were carried.
In 1963 when I started there were 2 buses, one for the boys, one for the girls. The buses were typically ‘soon to be withdrawn’ early 1950’s Guy Arab III’s or 1V’s/Northern Counties with e.g. KTE #, MTB # or # RTC registrations.
In 1965 or 66 three buses were then provided, one for 1st/2nd formers, one for 3rd/4th formers and one, you’ve guessed it for 5th/6th formers. But at least now you could get the same bus as your ‘latest’ girlfriend, they were co-educational at last!
The buses now were the later modern Arab Mark IV’s with 73 seats such as the # JTD or # NTF examples.
At this time, probably to obviate any danger to pupils and to avoid traffic congestion on Crow Lane East opposite the school these buses, along with the Rubery Owen (Warrington) bus now departed from Cole Avenue, a few yards north up off Queens Drive.
Timings: Depart Culcheth Harrow Inn 08:13, Risley, Noggin Inn 08:18, Croft, Horse Shoe Inn 08:23, Croft, General Elliott 08:25, Kenyon, Plough Inn 08:28, Lowton, Lane Head 08:35, then non-stop to arrive Newton Grammar School 08:46.
Between timing points up to Lane Head it would stop for pupils at any recognised bus stop.
Return: Depart Cole Avenue 16:08, Lowton, Lane Head 16:19, Kenyon, Plough Inn 16:26, Croft,General Elliott 16:29, Croft, Horse Shoe Inn 16:31, Risley, Noggin Inn 16:36, arrive Culcheth, Harrow Inn 16:41.
The buses were then conveniently positioned both location and timewise to go to Risley UKAEA just 5 minutes away to operate works services.
With regard to Culcheth, it should be noted that timetables always used the old name Newchurch, Harrow Inn, which to me always sounds better!
These schoolbuses thus traversed lanes between Risley and Croft which were only ever used by Risley works services, and between Croft and Lowton by the Saturday pm only, 2-hourly service 37.
The 37 was then linked (but not officially) to the 36 Newchurch-Irlam service. These double-decked(!) services I feel sure only carried lots of fresh air.
Thought these workings may be of interest, and nice to set them on record.

David J. Smith

06/2016

22/06/16 – 06:55

David
Thank you for writing this fascinating article. I hold interest in LUT dearly having, like you travelled to school on them in the 1960’s too.
Particularly of interest to me is the fact that the majority of the services you have described would have been Hindley depot workings, which, as I lived and went to school in the Walkden & Farnworth areas, which would have been Swinton depot ones and were I later worked as both conductor then driver. The Hindley workings are not well known to me, so your article gives a little insight into those. The only special working that I know well that went into your area was the Saturdays only service from Manchester Chapel Street (i.e. outside and across the road from Victoria Bus Station) to the Hospital at Winwick. This service was often worked by downgraded coaches, (i.e. those repainted red – from cream) and only ever worked by Swinton depot’s ‘Top Sheet’ crews. If I might explain why. Following the 5 day working week agreement at the end of the sixties, LUT needed part timers to complete all of the weekend work that was assigned to crews but which they could hand back if they did not wish to work it. This would include all the late service runs and the unsavoury or mind numbingly boring ones. The one exception being the ‘Winwick’ as this was such an easy duty, it picked up at Eccles only and ran showing ‘Private’, it was money for old rope indeed and the ‘Top Sheet’ senior men knew easy money when they saw it, so it was never given up!

Mike Norris

25/06/16 – 05:54

Mike,thank you for your positive comments about my article,and thanks for your reminiscences and experiences of L.U.T.
I must admit that I had always assumed that my Culcheth to Newton school buses were operated from Atherton Depot,in line with the majority of other services in the area. That was,until I stopped being shy and got chatting with one of the conductors in about 1965, finding out that their home depot was indeed Hindley.
With reference to the Saturdays only Manchester-Winwick Hospital service I was under the impression that apart from Eccles,Bus Station it would stop to pick up elsewhere along it’s line of route. My memory, or was it my imagination is that there were other timing points i.e. d. Manchester, Chapel St/Victoria St. 1330, Eccles, Bus Station 1347, Irlam,Ship Hotel 1400, Newchurch, Shaw Street 1415, arr. Winwick Hospital 1430.
It returned from Winwick Hospital at 1630, arriving back in Manchester 1730.
Now,although I have 1947,59,63 and 65 timetables they only state one intermediate timing at Eccles, (at1347 )like you have mentioned in your post. Now,did I have or see another timetable which had those other timing points,or what? The timing point at Newchurch, Shaw Street instead of Harrow Inn would not be out of order either because that would be the route of the 47 in Culcheth( i.e. via Shaw St and Church Lane instead of direct along Warrington Road to the Harrow Inn) on it’s service from Leigh to Croft,Winwick & Warrington which of course our Manchester to Winwick coach could conceivably follow. So did I see that somewhere else,or I might even have had at one time another timetable.I might have lost it during one of our frequent house moves.It’s certainly not in my collection now!
Also,another possible mental aberration on my part but ,I think I saw a photo somewhere of one of those good-looking 1960 Northern Counties bodied Tiger Cubs of the 28-35 batch registered 121 MTE etc.photographed in Manchester in later red dual-purpose livery in the mid 60’s at the start of it’s journey to Winwick.It was showing WINWICK and not PRIVATE in it’s single destination screen-they had no numeral indicators of course.
There was also the fascinating jointly operated X85 (or 85X if you were on a Wigan Corporation bus! ) from Wigan to Irlam ,started in 1964 whose main passengers were workers at Irlam Steel Works-now sadly closed since 1979.This limited stop rail replacement service took a very creditable 47 mins ,just 8 minutes longer than the train service it replaced, although in autumn and winter the mists and fog rising from the open fields and the winding B-roads would no doubt slow it down a bit. Always a surprise in the gloom to meet a KEK or HJP registered Wigan Titan with Massey body on a bend ,the first thing you’d notice being the green identification light either side of its destination screen.I believe they were to assist Wigan ratepaying citizens in recognising their approaching bus as being one of ‘theirs’ and use it instead of one of their competitors,presumably LUT and Ribble !!
Certain LUT journeys especially those returning from Irlam terminated at Abram,Warrington Road,presumably to turn off for Hindley Depot.The code on these stated “Out of Service Journey and liable to suspension if not so required”. To me,this always begged the question how would you know if you wanted that particular bus that it might not turn up ! The service was fairly good if irregularly time tabled and a bit more frequent than the trains it replaced,but it was still a rail replacement service and you might have a long two or three hour gap or so until your next bus.
From Swinton Depot ( I presume it was Swinton) there was also the X86- a Monday to Friday commuter service from Manchester to Risley (UK.A.E.A).There is a picture of a downgraded AEC Reliance/Burlingham coach of the 1-5 batch(G241 GTJ etc.) showing destination MANCHESTER at Risley lined up with other LUT Arab double deckers,and right at the end of the line it a white/black Crosville CMG coach on another long distance service,out to Frodsham & Saughall , a village west of Chester.
Vehicles from well outside the immediate area catered for these Atomic Energy workers. The X86 departed Manchester,Lower Mosley St.Bus Station 0725 M-F,via Urmston ,Station 0740, then via M63 (now part of the orbital M60) over Barton High Level Bridge to Irlam, Clarendon Road 0755, Glazebrook, Station 0803 (for trains from Liverpool Central and Manchester Central), Newchurch, Harrow Inn 0810 to Risley, Bus Park arr. 0815. It returned at 1718 M-Th (or 20 mins.earlier at 1658 on F), taking an extra 5 mins between Urmston & Manchester probably to allow for evening rush hour traffic, arriving Manchester 1813 M-Th or 1753 on F.
If anyone is interested in all such regular and works services in this area I recommend finding a copy of Buses Illustrated 205 of April 1972,which includes a 7-page article entitled Chat Moss Today with map and photos.

David J. Smith

26/06/16 – 06:43

Thanks for your extra/additional information, following my earlier response. Had to go into the loft this morning to dig out my LUT info. I have 1969,1970 and 1976 Faretables, plus 1966, 1967 & 1976 Timetables, so have been looking through them to identify most of the services that you have shown. First, the Winwick Hospital, the times were always the same as you have shown, Manchester, Eccles, Newchurch and Winwick & return. The Faretables only show Manchester, Eccles, then Newchurch, Shaw Street and the Cherry Tree Hotel, then Winwick. Passengers were not carried intermediately. As regards the destination, coach blinds were not as all inclusive as service buses and ‘Winwick’ was not on many (if any at all ) of Swinton’s coaches, hence the use of Private. Wether or not it did pick up at other points along the route, I do not know. To the X85, as you say a rail replacement service following the closure of lines that allowed those trains to get from Wigan to Irlam. What I did not know was that it was joint with Wigan, who as you say did indeed operate on it as well. The Timetables make no reference to this and only after consulting the Fireable is there a mention in its heading. Wigan PD2’s along Holcroft Lane, wow, that was news to me ! Now the X86 from Lower Mosley Street in Manchester, nope not a Swinton working, strangely enough but yet again, another Hindley one, with the consequential empty running, but as it was under contract, the finance would have covered. Again no intermediate fares in the Faretable. After looking through my purchased photographs, I see that I have shots of – 76 (Hindley) on the X85 in snow on Holcroft Road 105 (Hindley) at Risley, with 24 (Hindley) behind and a CSG6 at the rear 259 in Wigan showing X85 Irlam. 365 departing Hindley showing X85 Irlam. and later 381 in Hindley depot showing 695 (as the X85 became) Lastly, I wish I had that Chat Moss article and perhaps if you are still living in the North West, we’d have a lot to talk about if we met.Thanks for your extra/additional information, following my earlier response. Had to go into the loft this morning to dig out my LUT info. I have 1969,1970 and 1976 Faretables, plus 1966, 1967 & 1976 Timetables, so have been looking through them to identify most of the services that you have shown. First, the Winwick Hospital, the times were always the same as you have shown, Manchester, Eccles, Newchurch and Winwick & return. The Faretables only show Manchester, Eccles, then Newchurch, Shaw Street and the Cherry Tree Hotel, then Winwick. Passengers were not carried intermediately. As regards the destination, coach blinds were not as all inclusive as service buses and ‘Winwick’ was not on many (if any at all ) of Swinton’s coaches, hence the use of Private. Wether or not it did pick up at other points along the route, I do not know. To the X85, as you say a rail replacement service following the closure of lines that allowed those trains to get from Wigan to Irlam. What I did not know was that it was joint with Wigan, who as you say did indeed operate on it as well. The Timetables make no reference to this and only after consulting the Fireable is there a mention in its heading. Wigan PD2’s along Holcroft Lane, wow, that was news to me ! Now the X86 from Lower Mosley Street in Manchester, nope not a Swinton working, strangely enough but yet again, another Hindley one, with the consequential empty running, but as it was under contract, the finance would have covered. Again no intermediate fares in the Faretable. After looking through my purchased photographs, I see that I have shots of – 76 (Hindley) on the X85 in snow on Holcroft Road 105 (Hindley) at Risley, with 24 (Hindley) behind and a CSG6 at the rear 259 in Wigan showing X85 Irlam. 365 departing Hindley showing X85 Irlam. and later 381 in Hindley depot showing 695 (as the X85 became) Lastly, I wish I had that Chat Moss article and perhaps if you are still living in the North West, we’d have a lot to talk about if we met.

Mike Norris

28/06/16 – 06:38

Mike,there is currently (27/6/2016) a copy for sale on E-Bay Ł2.99, free postage. Click on the following link www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ian-Allan-BUSES
Should take you to it-or on the E-Bay site itself search for Buses Illustrated April 1972. Quite often other copies are found for sale.

David J Smith

02/07/16 – 06:34

Mike,thanks for your comments and interesting information. Well I never would have thought that Hindley Depot did the X86 Manchester Risley U.K.A.E.A.service,I could perhaps have understood if Atherton had worked it,but Hindley never! I would imagine it took the route from Hindley via Atherton & Tyldesley to the East Lancs A580 & A6 to get to Manchester for 0725 to start the X86. From Risley after the a.m. drop off at 0815 I suppose the best way would be direct to the Harrow nn,Culcheth ,then the X85 route via Lane Head,Golborne & Abram to Hindley Depot.Then in reverse of course in the evening rush hour. I bet that a.m. out of service leg from Hindley to Manchester on a foggy winter’s morning was sometimes a slow one,but at least the coach would be warmed up for it’s Risley bound commuters at Manchester !
In my original article I also forgot to mention another LUT schoolday service ,but this time it was the reverse of my Newton Grammar school buses in that it was from Earlestown and Newton to Newchurch (Culcheth) for Culcheth High School.In those days there was such a good range of available schools options compared with today wasn’t there? It was nominally a 52 from Earlestown,Market at 0815 via Crow Lane to Newton Station (0825) then Lane Head arr.0833.The timetable then had an intriguing footnote ‘ Link Up with journey to Newchurch’ on the 49 service,but this really was operated as a through working dep.Lane Head 0835 ,arriving Newchurch,Harrow Inn 0845. From my own schoolday observations at Lane Head there weren’t many schoolkids on it from Earlestown to Lane Head,but at Lane Head it certainly got fuller,as it acted as a duplicate for the schooldays only 0820 Leigh Corporation service 48 from Leigh via Lane Head 0835 to Newchurch.This was always one of the older lowbridge bodied Corporation vehicles with kids spilling off those shiny leathercloth upper deck bench seats into the side gangway with squeals of delight no doubt when it went round the bends in Kenyon Lane and Wilton Lane en route to Newchurch,well I would like to think so,remembering the things we kids used to get up on buses!.The corresponding returns from Newchurch left the Harrow Inn at 1615 to Lane Head 1625,the Corporation 48 turning right for Leigh whilst the LUT 49 became a 52 in that through ‘link-up to Newton Station arr.1633 and Earlestown Market arr.1643.
Another interesting little snippet here. I had a couple of mates who went to Culcheth High School and they were avid trainspotters. From 1964 onwards they would have get that 48 just mentioned from where they lived near Lowton St.Marys Station,but from 1962 until 1964 when passenger services ceased on the Wigan Central to Glazebrook and Manchester Central line they actually got, and it was still steam operated , he train from Lowton St.Marys Stn.to Culcheth Station,a journey probably taking all of 4 or 5 minutes.The times weren’t too convenient for instance either as it got them to school about 45 mins, before the bell and they had a wait for a returning train in the afternoon,but they could always while away the time having a football kickabout.The days before girls,and travelling on steam trains was exciting to 12 and 13 year old boys…
Take me Back!
Incidentally,if you haven’t managed to obtain a copy of BI 205,I can always photocopy it for you,but would need an e-mail address so that you could tell me your postal address.

David J Smith

21/07/16 – 09:58

I am really sorry for the long delay in replying, I obtained the Buses Magazine through my brother, but who was away on holiday when it arrived!
So to the article by Mr Biddiscombe. I see in their the questions raised which your research has sought to answer, so praise indeed for that. I was unaware of the 36 & 37 story, their decline and resurrection along with Leigh’s 46 & 47 story hingeing on the Risley installation. Also enjoyed reading about the River Mersey embankment collapse ending the use of Warrington’s Bank Foot terminus for the 10 from Manchester and the 77/80 series of locals. One item I can directly link to was the school service from Glazebrook New Farm via Dam Head Hall to Irlam, which I have Guarded but never driven, it was worked by a Loline that had worked a morning 22 service from Swinton to Irlam Steel Works. The ‘Moss’ was not a welcoming place on early winter mornings, when the only heat available was to stand in front of the radiator to get your frozen fingers to work the ‘TIM’ dial ! All in all a very interesting chapter of LUT, so thank you again for highlighting.

Mike Norris

The Dennis Dart

The Dennis Dart was a sophisticated little machine that was a great advance upon its forebears, the 36 bhp 2.72 litre four cylinder side valve powered G, and the slightly longer GL which had a 42 bhp ohv version of the same engine design (see OBP Llandudno UDC – Dennis GL – CC 8671). The Dart was introduced in 1929 and was propelled by a wet liner, six cylinder pushrod ohv engine of 4.086 litres that could develop up to 70 bhp. Coupled with a four speed gearbox, road speeds in excess of 50 mph were attainable. Fuel consumption was claimed to be 15 mpg on main roads and 11 mpg in urban conditions. Most Dart production was bodied for bus and coach work, but some were used as lorries. Unusually for Dennis, only three were equipped with fire engine bodies, and all of them went to New Zealand :- www.fire-engine-photos.com
The earliest examples of the Dart had a radiator grille similar in shape to the EV model as seen on the fire engine, but this was soon replaced by the Arrow/ Lance style of grille shown on TJ 836. From 1930, The London General Omnibus Company adopted the Dart as its standard small bus for OMO duties, taking a total of 42.
Like the six cylinder 100 bhp Arrow, the Dart came on the scene at a difficult time when the economy was in the severe doldrums following the 1929 financial crash. The Arrow was quickly replaced in 1931 by the more utilitarian four cylinder Lancet, and the Dart was followed in 1933 by the rugged and reliable ‘Flying Pig’ Ace model which had the utterly dependable 60 bhp four cylinder 3.77 litre side valve motor, an engine that remained in production up to the 1960s. When the London Transport Passenger Board came into existence in 1933 it deliberated for some time in its choice of a new 20 seater bus for OMO duties before finally coming down in favour of the Leyland Cub in 1935. The influencing factor seems to have been Leyland’s introduction of the 4.4 litre six cylinder diesel engine for the Cub. Other models from Thornycroft and Dennis were considered by the LPTB, but the only diesel options from those manufacturers were the Gardner 4LK or the temperamental and barely developed Perkins Wolf, both of which were four cylinder designs. In service, the Cub’s original direct injection Leyland unit proved to be troublesome, and it was superseded by an indirect injection version. All the London Darts remained in service until 1939, when they were due to be ousted by the revolutionary new rear engined version of the Cub, the CR, the sad tale of which may be found elsewhere on OBP :- www.old-bus-photos.co.uk

Roger Cox
11/2016

Vegas, Super Vegas, and Vega Lookalikes – Part Two

Duple Bodywork on Bedford SB chassis 1950-1962

FS56 VEGA/SUPER VEGA

The FS46 Vega had retained most of the styling of the original FS32 range albeit with slightly revised corner glazing at the front end. In October 1953 Duple did a more thorough re-design and came up with the FS56. The “Big Bedford” radiator cowling disappeared and was replaced by an oval radiator grille which led to it being nicknamed the “Fishmouth” Vega. The FS56/1 was the 8ft wide version and the Mk VI bus option was quietly dropped, to be replaced by a purpose-built bus body manufactured at Kegworth. Apart from the oval grille another distinguishing feature of the original FS56 model was a marginally increased seating capacity of 36/38.

This is the original FS56 Vega with the “fish-mouth” radiator grille. All such vehicles were built during 1954. At the time of this shot Bedford SBG HBW 306 was working for Williams of Wrockwardine Wood in Shropshire (Photographer unknown)

As the nickname “Fishmouth” might suggest, some operators were unimpressed by the new frontal design of the Vega and took their shillings to Scarborough for some far more attractive Plaxton Venturers. Duple rapidly admitted that the oval grille had been a mistake, and after a single year in production the vacuous goldfish look was replaced by a far more pleasing design. Introduced at the 1954 Commercial Motor Show, the new front end featured a butterfly shaped grille surmounted by a “feathered wings” motif. Otherwise it retained the dimensions and seating capacity of the original FS56. The butterfly grille models were given the designations FS56/2 (7ft 6ins) and FS56/3 (8ft).

Shropshire was a good place to find elderly Vega variants! This is Bedford SBG 111 CVX, new in 1955 and carrying an FS56/2 “butterfly grille” body. At the time of the photograph it was in service with Tulip Coaches of Hadley who also owned the Dennis L6 Falcon shown earlier in this feature.
(Roy Marshall via Author)

Model numbers from FS56/4 through to FS56/9 were allocated to “lookalikes”; /4 and /5 to Leyland’s new forward control version of the Comet, /6 and/7 to bodies built on Commer Avenger III chassis, and /8-9 to a small number of Albion FT39 Victors. The next “true Vegas” came along in October 1955 and were the first to be a full 30ft long, a move made possible after Bedford extended the wheelbase of the SB chassis. The FS56/10 was the 7ft 6ins version and the FS56/11 the 8 footer, with both having alternative seating plans for either 37 or 41 passengers. These designations were retained for the slightly modified versions introduced at the October 1956 Commercial Motor Show which retained the butterfly grille but incorporated the “feathered wings” into the top edge of the butterfly shape to achieve a much more harmonious result. For the first time in three years Duple’s design for the SB was more attractive than that of Plaxton which had ill-advisedly dropped the classic Venturer and replaced it with the fairly monstrous first version of the Consort range.

And here is the prettiest of them all, in this case an 8ft wide FS56/11 with the improved butterfly grille. Bedford SBG NUJ 313 was new to Whittle of Highley (in southern Shropshire) in 1956 but is seen here running for M&G Motors of Wem in the northern part of the county. (Photographer unknown)

This Commer T85A Avenger III with an FS56/6 lookalike body was delivered in the same year as the Bedford SBG above but retained the original butterfly grille as the floor-line was higher on the Avenger and the separate “feathered wings” motif helped to conceal the deeper front panel area between windscreen and radiator grille. We have not strayed very far from Shropshire as this machine, NUN 450, was new to EG Peters of Llanarmon-yn-Ial. Just across the Welsh border. (Photographer unknown)

Another of the classic “revised butterfly” design, but in this case a higher specification Super Vega mounted on a diesel-powered Bedford SBO. ODL 48 was new to state-owned Southern Vectis in 1957, and ten years later it left the Isle of Wight to join another Tilling group company, United Counties. Its stay there was brief and in 1968 it moved on to Smaller of Barton-on-Humber (Lincolnshire) and ended up in a scrapyard. Hulley’s of Baslow bought it for spares in 1971, but two years later placed it into service as fleet number 9. (John Holmes)

The numbering system was becoming a bit of a shambles by 1956, a single designation covering a multitude of options made clear only by the suffix number. The FS56 series included not only genuine Vegas and “Vega Lookalikes” but also the Britannia/Britannic models designed for underfloor engined chassis such as AEC Reliances and Leyland Tiger Cubs. There was an obvious family resemblance between the Vega and the Britannia (the separate Britannic designation for centre-entrance versions had been dropped after one season), and the two designs had many common components, but the Britannia was surely deserving of its own place in the FS series. Instead the Britannia bodies received design numbers between FS56/21 and FS56/40 indicating chassis type, width, entrance position, and the special demands of the buyer.
Things became even more ridiculous in 1957 when the FS56 series jumped again for no apparent reason, designations FS56/57 and FS56/58 being allocated to “Vega Lookalike” bodies fitted to the new Ford 570E Thames Trader chassis. The /57 was the narrower of the two options. Ford were not keen on the butterfly grille and Duple came up with a rather chrome-heavy alternative which occupied the full width (and most of the depth) of the front end panels. The front windscreens were of a new two-piece design made possible by advances in curved glass technology. A relatively small number were built in 1957-58 before the Thames began to flood the market. The final numbers in the FS56 series were the FS56/59 and FS56/60, built on Bedford SB chassis to Vega specification but with extensive use of Perspex roof glazing aimed at the Continental touring market. The new variation was known as the Duple Alpine, but was very rare as most operators were not that keen on boiling their customers alive.
Two more designs related to the FS56 Vega family should also be mentioned in brief. Type number FS58 was allocated to a version of the Vega body tailored to suit front-engined heavyweight chassis built in 1946-1950, mostly as half-cab coaches. By 1956 the original bodywork on these vehicles had seen better days and Duple saw a market in making the mechanically sound chassis look as good as new for less than half the cost of a totally new vehicle. AEC Regals, Leyland Tigers, Crossley SD42s, and Daimler CVD6s were among the marques thus rebodied. Presumably each different chassis had a suffix number, but I have been unable to find a record of them.
The FS58 was shorter than a real Vega of its time, being to the 28ft 11¾ins length of the original FS56 of 1954 (and built on chassis originally designed for the 27ft 6ins legal limit), but the next number in the sequence, FS59, was given to an even more truncated version of the butterfly grille Vega design. This model was designed for the Bedford C4/C5 range of goods chassis, seating either 25 or 29 depending on the wheelbase of the particular chassis. It was originally known as the New Vista, but this was changed to Super Vista in 1959 when all Vegas became Super Vegas.

FS60 SUPER VEGA

Having perfected the FS56 Vega family Duple decided to take a lesson from Plaxton and replace their best-seller with something much less attractive. Introduced at the Commercial Motor Show in October 1958, the new FS60 range had a much more bulbous look and lacked the subtle lines of the butterfly grille model. The butterfly itself had vanished, replaced by an uninspiring full-width chrome unit originally used on the small batch of FS56 models fitted to Ford chassis in 1957-58. The two-piece curved front windscreen had also first been used on the early Fords, but the rear window arrangement was completely new and not particularly attractive to most observers. The kindest thing you could say was that it let more light in than earlier versions. Meanwhile Plaxton had undertaken several redesigns of the Consort and by the time the Consort IV emerged in late 1959 the ugly duckling had turned into a passable swan. Faced with the obese new Super Vega variant several well-known operators switched their allegiance to the Scarborough firm.

The FS60 Super Vega was several steps away from the elegance of the later FS56 versions. This is HCC 850, a 1960 Bedford SB3 (petrol engined) which was new to Purple Motors of Bethesda. Five years after delivery it was sold on to Williams of Llithfaen who used it on their stage service to Pwllheli as seen here. (Photographer unknown)

The original FS60 Super Vega was the 7ft 6ins version while the 8ft equivalent was the FS60/1. Next came the (unnamed) FS60/2 which was a similar body for the Commer Avenger IV, while design numbers FS60/3 to FS60/6 were Duple Britannias on underfloor engined chassis. The numbers FS60/7 and FS60/8 were the Super Vega lookalikes for Ford 570E chassis. These too were unnamed at this stage despite what you may have read elsewhere!
The 1960 Commercial Motor Show brought another partial redesign of the Super Vega, with a three-piece windscreen and a new (more stylish) radiator grille helping to improve its appearance. The design numbers had taken another unexplained leap, with the rehashed Super Vega becoming the FS60/18 (7ft 6ins) and FS60/19 (8ft) while the FS60/20 was the version for the Commer Avenger IV and (at Commer’s suggestion apparently) was given the name Corinthian, the first of the “lookalikes” to aspire to such a status. The numbers from FS60/21 to FS60/24 were allocated to Duple Britannias, and FS60/25 (7ft 6ins) and FS60/26 (8ft) were given to bodies on Ford 570E Thames Traders. These too finally acquired a name, being branded as the Duple Yeoman. The Fords’ radiators were slightly larger than those of Bedford SBs and Commer Avenger IVs, so the Yeoman of 1961-62 retained the original version of the FS60 radiator grille – itself first used on early Thames Traders – while the (Commer based) Corinthian used the same type of grille as the 1961-62 Super Vega.

The final 1961/1962 version of the FS60 was an improvement, but only if seen from the front. This 1962 example on a Bedford SB1 (diesel-powered) chassis, 631 UTD, started its life in Lancashire but by the time of this photograph had passed to Titterington of Blencowe in the Lake District.
(Photographer unknown)

In 1961 Duple began to design a new range of coach bodies for introduction in 1962/63, involving much squarer bodywork with straight waist-rails and the quirky “keynote” feature of a backward leaning window pillar above the rear wheel arch on each side. It was generally known as the”Bella” range but more accurately as the FS61 series. The first model to be launched was the 29 seat Bella Vista for the Bedford VAS, followed by the 52 seat Vega Major for the three axle Bedford VAL, and then by the 41 seat Bella Vega for the Bedford SB.
I will take a look at the entire FS61 range (which also included the Trooper for the Ford 570E, the Marauder and Mariner for Ford 676E Thames 36 chassis, the Commodore for 32ft underfloor engined designs, the Empress for the Ford R192, and the Bella Venture for the Bedford VAM) in a future article, but my next piece on coach bodywork will remain in the 1950s and cover Plaxton models from 1950 to 1959 under the working title “Venturers, Consorts, and Panoramas”

Neville Mercer
03/2017

Not seen the beginning of this ‘Article’, click here

30/03/17 – 07:16

Neville.
What an excellent Two Part Article.
A note you may be interested in part 1 is KWX 413 was purchased new to Kildare, Adwick-le-Street from Comberwell Motors dealership in 9-1951, in previous month 8/1951 KWX 412 was also purchased new by Kildare.

Alan Coulson

28/04/17 – 07:17

One of the delights of both this site and sct61 is how something written today can suddenly shed light on something that has been puzzling me for a long, long time. In this case it was a Ford/Duple coach operated in the 1960s by Claribel Coaches of Ardwick, Manchester, which looked at first sight like what I now know as an FS60, but in side view resembled the earlier butterfly grille Vega. Since I’ve never seen another one, or even a photograph, for 50 years I’ve assumed it must have been either a prototype or a dream. Now I know it was an FS56/57 or /58. Thank you very much!

Peter Williamson

28/04/17 – 16:47

Peter W, you’re so right!! You mention CLARIBEL. I remember them from the mid to late fifties and early sixties when they used to visit Morecambe, though I can’t remember what colours they applied or what vehicles they had.

Pete Davies

01/05/17 – 07:15

As far as I recall, Claribel of Ardwick (not to be confused with a Birmingham operator of the same name which seems to have been better known) had a livery of two shades of blue. As well as the Ford they had a Bedford OB, which in most places would be “yeah, right, who didn’t?”, but it’s the only one I can ever recall seeing in Manchester in the 1960s.
Returning to the article, it isn’t true that the FS60/25 and /26 Ford Yeoman retained the original FS60 grille. It had its own special version, as shown here at this link.

Peter Williamson

08/05/17 – 07:59

Peter and Pete, if you search OBP for ‘claribel’, you will find some comments about Claribel of Ardwick, including a partial fleet list I compiled a few years ago. I would imagine they also had other coaches purchased second hand.
Adding a little further information to the fleet list (the ‘date in’ and ‘date new’ have been transposed):-
2444 ND was new to A Howarth, Gorton;
CCB 150 was probably a unique vehicle, being a forward control conversion of a Bedford OB carrying a Trans-United full front body. New to Ribblesdale, Blackburn, a colour photograph of this coach whilst with Claribel appeared in Classic Bus 117 (Feb/March 2012), nicely illustrating the shades of blue used by Claribel;
JA 2459 was new to W Howe, Stockport and passed to North Western with that operator’s business in 1935.

David Williamson

13/06/17 – 09:12

Something which adds weight to Neville’s belief that the Duple Continental was not designed at Blackpool is that the prototype – which eventually became 6201ML – was built at Loughborough under Willowbrook order no. 61837. Intriguingly, order no. 61838 was cancelled and 61839 was an order of parts for Burlingham!

Peter Williamson

13/04/22 – 06:24

I’m a Matchbox collector and I’m looking for the colours of Bedford type “Commer T85A Avenger III with a FS56/6 lookalike body” (NUN 450 four pictures above, it was new to E G Peters of Llanarmon-yn-Ial). I would like to know if anyone can provide me with the bus colours.
There are lots of 1955 Bedford bus photos on the Internet but this one is the most similar to Matchbox no21 Bedford Duple Luxury Coach.

Manuel Grilo

Vegas, Super Vegas, and Vega Lookalikes – Part One

Duple Bodywork on Bedford SB chassis 1950-1962

The work of the PSV Circle in maintaining fleet records for operators throughout the UK (and beyond) has been little less than magnificent, and most authors (myself included) owe the organisation a tremendous debt. However, being English, that doesn’t prevent me from having one small gripe amid the general climate of praise. Many of the organisation’s “roving reporters” had a tendency to provide all available information about the chassis of a vehicle but be rather less specific on details of the bodywork. I know that several of the organisation’s long term leading lights acknowledge this regrettable oversight and wish that those out in the field in the pioneering days had been more curious about bodywork styles.
To give an example, a 1950 Leyland PS1 Tiger with a “Plaxton FC33F” body could be either a Plaxton Envoy or a Plaxton Crusader, very different beasts in terms of appearance and styling. Similarly, a 1952 Leyland PSU1/15 Royal Tiger described as carrying a “Windover C37C” body could be a Windover Kingsway (with rakish if controversial styling) or a Windover Queensway (which looked like an over-sized milk float).
Many enthusiasts and writers from a later age are similarly imprecise in their description of bodywork. My personal bugbear is the use of the term “Duple Vega” or “Duple Super Vega” to describe bodywork built on chassis other than the Bedford SB. Vauxhall Motors had an agreement with Duple to use “V” (for Vauxhall) as the initial letter for designs intended for Bedford chassis only. Thus the Vista (for Bedford O range vehicles), Vega/Super Vega (for the SB family) and later the New Vista/Super Vista (on Bedford C4/C5), Bella Vista (on the VAS), Vega Major (on the VAL14), Bella Vega (on the SB from 1963) and Bella Venture (on the VAM for 1966 only). In 1967 the agreement seems to have ended as Duple went on to make the Viceroy and Viscount models on Ford chassis as well as Bedford.
In my own writing I tend to describe Vega style bodies on chassis other than Bedford as “Vega Lookalikes” in order to maintain a narrative flow, but each lookalike has its own distinctive Duple model number and these are listed in this article alongside the genuine Bedford Vegas which they resembled. From 1946 onwards Duple used a series of “FS” numbers for its bodywork designs. The “FS” stood for “Full Size”, although this appellation referred to the scale of the draughtsman’s drawings rather than the physical size of the actual coach or bus (a point proven by the allocation of FS50 to the diminutive Sportsman design built for the Bedford OLAZ goods chassis).
The series began with the FS1 model for half-cab coaches, more popularly known by its marketing department name of “A type”. Later and longer (and/or wider) “A types” had their own individual FS numbers as did those produced in bulk for specific customers such as the Southern/Western National fleets. By late 1949 the FS series had advanced to FS32 which was the designation given to a 33 seat metal-framed body for the new Bedford SB chassis.

FS32 VEGA

The original Duple Vega had been intended to meet the (then) maximum legal dimensions of 27ft 6ins in length by 7ft 6ins in width, but before the new type could go into production the regulations were changed to allow a length of 30 feet. Another change meant that vehicles up to 8 feet in width could be used on all suitable roads rather than operators having to seek permission to use such vehicles on the mileage of each individual Road Service Licence. Duple was too far into the production process to take full advantage of the liberalised dimensions, but added a token inch to the Vega’s length.

This is the original FS32 Vega body of metal-framed construction. KWX 413 was new in 1951, one of a pair bought from Duple by the Comberhill Motors dealership in Wakefield. It later ran for Wigmore (Excelsior) of Dinnington before moving to Price of Wrockwardine Wood (Shropshire) in 1963. Rather than change the eyebrow blind Price started to use the Excelsior name himself! The vehicle went from Price to Canham of Whittlesey but returned to Shropshire at the end of its life with Williamson of Shrewsbury. Sister vehicle KWX 412 ended up in the Shetland Islands and is currently preserved. (Photographer unknown)

The model number FS32 (without a suffix) indicated a standard Bedford SB/Duple Vega, measuring 27ft 7ins by 7ft 6ins. The FS32/1 had the same body shell but with more basic seating and interior trim and was marketed as the Duple Mk VI service bus body. Few operators were tempted by it as the full coach version was only 7% more expensive, had the same number of seats, and could be used on a wider variety of work. The FS32/2 was the 8ft wide version of the Mk VI, while the designation FS32/3 referred to an 8ft wide Vega coach.
At this point the first “Lookalikes” enter the picture. Designations FS32/4 through to FS32/7 were allocated to a similar sequence of options for bodywork on Dennis Falcon chassis. Only four were built, but the few that did go into service were an inch shorter than the corresponding Vega for reasons which remain obscure. The Dennis examples were unnamed, although some internal documents described them as “Duple Falcons” to differentiate them from their Bedford kin.

FS42 VEGA

This model, introduced during 1951, was externally identical to the FS32. The difference lay in the mode of construction. While the FS32 had a completely metal frame the FS42 reverted to more traditional composite (wood/metal) construction, a decision forced upon Duple by a mixture of industrial action and a shortage of skilled labour in the area around its Hendon premises. Suffix numbers remained identical to those of the FS32 range although only two FS42/5s were ever built on Dennis L6 Falcon chassis, taking the grand total to six.

The strikes at Duple’s Hendon factory during 1951 threatened the future of the company at the hour of its greatest triumph and in order to apply pressure on the unions involved several small batches of Vega bodies were assembled by Brush at their Loughborough premises. This FS42 (MOD 688) was originally delivered to a Devonshire operator but later migrated northwards, first to Midway of Crymmych in South Wales, and then to Williamson of Shrewsbury as seen in this shot. The Brush examples were made from authentic Duple components and were visually indistinguishable from the real thing.
(Photographer unknown)

The next chassis type to receive a “Vega Lookalike” body design was the Tilling-Stevens L4MA8 Express II. Designed to compete with the Bedford SB/Commer Avenger ranges, the Express II was suitable for 30ft long bodywork and Duple’s FS44 design (which was metal framed like the FS32 Vega) took advantage of its slightly longer wheelbase to offer 37 seat coach and 39 seat bus versions. The latter used the same body-shell as the coach and (unlike its Mk VI equivalent on Bedford chassis) actually outsold the coach. As the figures were four and three respectively this was not quite as impressive as it might sound! They were rare enough in either version to make an enthusiast’s day.

Tilling-Stevens L4MA8 Express II UNO 880 was new to Rainham Luxury Coaches in Essex in June 1952 and was an FS44 with 37 coach seats and soft trim. Rainham got rid of it rather quickly and it had two more owners before arriving with Truman of Shirebrook (Derbyshire) when still less than two years old. (RHG Simpson)

Two months after UNO 880 came into the world this L4MA8 with the 39 seat bus version of the lookalike body (FS44/1) was delivered to Morrison of Tenby (South Wales). ODE 777’s later owners included Gillard of Normanton (West Riding), Martin of Caerphilly (South Wales), and then three further operators in the West Riding of Yorkshire; Mosley of Barugh Green, Laycock of Barnoldswick (as seen in this shot), and Hillcrest of Settle. (Photographer unknown)

Dennis L6 Falcon NVF 943 was new to Culling of Claxton (Norfolk) in February 1953 and carries an FS42/5 “Vega Lookalike” body. It later passed to Lowe of Hadley (Shropshire) who traded as Tulip Coaches. (Roy Marshall via Author)

FS46 VEGA/SUPER VEGA

Hot on the heels of the FS44 for Tilling-Stevens chassis, Duple introduced a longer genuine Vega for the Bedford SB. The wheelbase of the SB remained the same, but a longer rear overhang enabled the FS46 model to carry 35/37 passengers in its 28ft 11¾ins length. The FS46 was a 7ft 6ins wide coach while FS46/1 indicated the 8ft wide model. The first deliveries took place during late 1952, and versions with a superior level of interior trim were available and marketed as the Super Vega. There were also Mk VI bus versions of the FS46 which could accommodate a maximum of 37 passengers. I’ve only ever noticed two of these but there may have been more. The FS46 was of composite construction as was the FS47 “lookalike” for Tilling-Stevens chassis which replaced the metal-framed FS44.
King George VI died in February 1952 and after a short period of mourning the popular press began to enthuse about the “New Elizabethan Age”. In the spirit of this sentiment Duple produced an extremely luxurious version of the longer Vega body and referred to it as an Elizabethan. The single vehicle produced featured a toilet, a galley, wheel spats over the rear wheel arches, and a rather inelegant T-shaped motif in chrome which was super-imposed over the existing “Big Bedford” radiator cowling. A few externally similar vehicles (but without the toilet and galley) were produced during 1953 under the name of Coronation Vega, while the Elizabethan name would be re-used for a far more successful model on underfloor-engined chassis in 1954.

Neville Mercer
03/2017

Part Two of this ‘Article’, click here

17/03/17 – 16:03

“of the Dennis Falcons were VPA 261/2 which entered service, new, with The Yellow Bus Co of Stoughton, Guildford in 1954.
VPA 261 worked YBS’s last service at 10:35 pm on Sunday 15th June 1958.
They can both be seen on SCT61 on the day before closure.
http://www.sct61.org.uk/yb261 http://www.sct61.org.uk/yb262
This info is from Happy Family by N Hamshere and J Sutton

John Lomas

The day in 1961 when the Bradford trolleybuses stopped working equals an examination of the motorbus fleet in 1961

In the early evening of Thursday the 8th June 1961, I noticed a motorbus was operating on the trolleybus route that went past our Eccleshill home. We lived alongside the 33 Eccleshill/City/44 St Enochs Road Top route and normally had four trolleys operating a 15-minute headway. But that night, motorbuses were operating.
Something clearly had gone wrong, so, when the “unexpected” motorbuses kept coming, I jumped on my bike to see what was going on at Bolton Junction, about a mile away. Here the 33/44 route joined with the trolleybus routes 40 from Saltaire and the 42 from Greengates. At Bolton Junction, they then went down Bolton Road to the City.
However, when I got to the nearby Bolton Junction, at around 19:25 hours, routes 40 and 42 both had trolleys working outbound from City. Crikey what was going on? But then, at 19:30 hours inbound came a motorbus from Greengates on the 42!
So perhaps these other trolleybus routes had also been out?
Also at Bolton Junction was the terminus of the trolleybus radial route 34 to Bankfoot that ran over the UK’s first trolleybus route from Laisterdyke to Dudley Hill in 1911. There on the 34, a trolleybus was ready to leave the terminus.
So, I quickly made my way back home and watched developments on the 33/44. The first motor bus I had seen was at 18:55 hours and this bus returned the 19:55 hours departure, as indeed did the another three up to the 20:40 hour departure. Then, with the 20:55 hour departure, we were back to the trolleybus. Situation now normal!
What went wrong I never found out, but as did not see any “run out of lecky” standing/stranded trolleybuses; I therefore always suspected it was a planned event scheduled for just after the evening peak?
So for the record, on the 8th June 1961, we had, the following 4 intruding motorbuses, on the 33/44. They are shown in their running order for that evening. Additionally they give a nice overview of the Bradford motorbus fleet in June 1961:
38 FKY 38 from the batch 1-40 (FKY) that were new in 1949/1950 AEC Regent III 9612E, with gorgeous 4 bay Weymann H56R, latterly H59R, bodies. Bradford also had 8 similar (FKU registered) trolleybuses from 1950/1951 with 5 bays bodies, along with second hand 7’6″ wide Weymann trolleybuses from Notts & Derby, Hastings and Brighton. It would be great if someone could do a definitive history of these Weymann beauties.
38 had entered service in March 1950 and was one of the last of the batch to be withdrawn in October 1968.
From this 40 bus batch, 1 to 20 were initially allocated to Horton Bank Top where they stayed for over 20 years working principally on the Great Horton Road routes into the large 1950’s Buttershaw council estate and up to Queensbury, that in 1961 was the largest highest populated village in the UK. However, after the post 1974 boundary changes it was no longer such, but the new Queensbury ward still had several hamlets with great, names like Catherine Slack, Hunger Hill, Mountain, Old Dolphin, and Scarlet Heights!
21 to 40 initially started out at Thornbury depot (for the Stanningley and Leeds routes) and also at Ludlam Street, where they could appear on any route.
Sadly, most of this batch was scrapped between 1963 and 1969, although number 10 was held back in 1969 to be a training/learner bus numbered 069, but this was not proceeded with; however, number 7 however was successful as it served as a training/learning bus numbered 066 from 1970 to 1972 when, with 069, was scrapped.
They were the best Bradford motorbuses ever for me, and later on in 1967 to 1969, I used to ride on them 4 times a day (joy oh joy) to/from Queensbury.

22 is outbound for Queensbury, note the “innovative” via indicator board (Stuart Emmett collection)

Meanwhile back to the plot, as there are still some buses to go. The next was another real beauty:
539 EKU 539 came from the batch 524 to 543 (EKU) that were new in 1947/1948, AEC Regent III 09611’s, with very lovely NCB H59R bodies that were re-seated in 1956/57 to H57R.
539 had entered service on the 5th March 1948 and destined to be withdrawn on the 30th April 1963. The whole batch apart from two went for scrap between 1960 and 1963 with 541 and 543 finding new work in the service fleet from 1961 as a grit wagon and pole painter’s wagon respectively. These were finally withdrawn in 1973 and 1972 respectively; when after their extra 10 year lease of life, they, like the others went for scrap.
Very good looking motorbuses buses and paralleled in Bradford’s trolleybus fleet with 27 NCB re-bodied 1934 KY/1935 AAK registered AEC’s that had re-entered service from 1946 to 1949. Some of the trolleybuses served up to 1962 and number 603, an AEC (1934) with a 1947 Northern Coachbuilders (NCB) body was especially repainted in a representation of the 1911 livery. 603 went on to complete over 1 million miles in service in April 1962, and was finally, withdrawn in June 1962.

525 on Union Street outbound for Bierley (Stuart Emmett collection)

408 HLW 155 from the batch numbered 401 to 425 (HLW and HLX registered) were 1947 AEC RT 09610/1’s ex London Transport with either Park Royal, Weymann or Saunders H56R bodies. They were bought in 1958 when Bradford Corporation Transport had a problem, as it was still running many utility double deckers. Clearly the cost of re-certifying them was looked at and instead, a decision was eventually taken to buy, from the dealers Birds in Stratford on Avon, 25×1947 London RT’s, with the utilities going to Birds in a part exchange plus cash deal.
Bradford did have a “full” history of using second hand trolleybuses, but apart from the purchases of ex demonstrators, these RT’s were the first major second hand bus purchases.
According to J.S. Kings 1995 lovely book, the RT’s came in 1958 with a 5 year certificate of fitness. This was unusual for 11 year buses but perhaps there is an explanation due to London’s virtual Aldenham works “rebuild as new” chassis and body separation maintenance policy. The first Aldenham major overhauls for the 25 that came to Bradford are known to have been in 1957 and now they had a certification free life until 1963. Then 5 were withdrawn, these were followed by 3 in 1964, 2 in 1967, 11 in 1968 and the last 4 withdrawals in April 1969; this was a variable service life in Bradford, and apart from 410 that was preserved, all were scrapped.
408 had entered service in 1st July 1958 and like the others, were given a one coat of drab blue paint with a cream/primrose narrow band, along retaining where fitted, the London roof box indicator. However, in 1960/1961 the whole 25 were painted into normal Bradford blue and cream livery, and many of them, also, had their roof box removed (where fitted), and replaced with full Bradford standard indicators.
An interesting purchase and a story I am working on, of good buses, which served Bradford very well.

402 at Manchester Road “City” for Wyke. Originally in Bradford as a non roof box RT, it was later fitted with standard indicators 2/3 years after entering service (Stuart Emmett collection)

56 GKU 56 was from the batch 41 to 65 (GKU) that entered service in September /October 1950, this being after the last of the FKY’s 21 to 40 had entered service in March 1950. They were Leyland PD2/3 with Leyland H56R (later to be H59R) bodies. 56 had entered service on the 1st October 1950 and all of them started life at Bankfoot depot on the Manchester Road routes to Shelf and Woodside, to Wyke and Oakenshaw and further out to Huddersfield (jointly operated with Hebble and Huddersfield Corporation).
They were withdrawn between 1966 and 1970 and all were scrapped, apart from 59 and 61 which joined the service fleet as learner buses in 1971 (as 068 and in 1971 was renumbered 035) and 1968 (as 060 and renumbered 036 ) respectively. These were passed over to West Yorkshire PTE in April 1974 and their fate is not known.

The last in the batch, 65 ready for Huddersfield that was a joint service with Hebble, Huddersfield Corporation and quote: the British Transport Commission, (aka the Huddersfield “B” Joint Committee buses). (Stuart Emmett collection) So that was the four on the 33/44, but there was one more, the bus I had also seen at Bolton Junction on the 42 route:
118 PKY 118 was new to Bradford on the 1st July 1959 in the batch of 106 to 120 (PKY registrations) and were AEV Regent V’s with lightweight MCW H70FD bodies that started entering service from May 1959. They were the first forward entrance motorbuses for Bradford Corporation, although Hebble had the first similar ones in Bradford with their 1958 JCP 672/3 with fleet numbers 304/305 (but 304 soon became 306). These worked on the two main routes they had between Bradford and Halifax, one via Shelf and one via Queensbury.
Bradford already had trolleybuses with forward entrances, as their 785 to 793 (GHN xxx) that had entered service between December 1958 and February 1959 (and after these, all the subsequent re-bodied trolleybuses were so equipped).
These 15 Regent V’s were also the first of 120 that were delivered between 1959 and 1964. These were all body wise, broadly similar, but with small detail differences in the indicators and the roof/window ventilations. The chassis also varied, as whilst 106 to 125 had monocontrol gears and were infinitely smoother and non “body shaking”, the subsequent synchromesh manual gear boxes on 126 to 225 were “shaking tin boxes” (according to one description of these buses). All of the Regent V’s were eventually passed over to the WTPTE in 1974.

110 on the City Circle that was about 2 miles out of the city centre and at a timing stop, in Bankfoot outside the Red Lion pub on Rooley Lane and is heading for Dudley Hill. The absent driver has perhaps nipped over the road behind the bus to the Bankfoot depot? The absence of an AEC badge on this can be noted, it being replaced by an enamel badge of the Bradford Coat of Arms. (Stuart Emmett collection). Out of the above five types, Bradford only had three other batches of motorbuses in service at this time. Two of these were very similar to the ones above, for example the 1949 Leyland PD2’s EKY 554 to 573, were like 41 to 65; and the 1961 Regent V’s UKY 121 to 125, were like 106 to 120.
However, the 40 batch 66 to 105 (HKW 66 to 105) were different. These were 1952/1953 Regent III’s that were fitted at Crossley Motors with Birmingham style concealed radiator fronts, presumably whilst on their way to East Lancashire Coachbuilders in Blackburn where they got their H59R bodies. This was to be the start of Bradford’s long association with East Lancs who went onto re-body 98 trolleybuses in 8 batches from late 1955 to early 1963.
The 40 x HKW’s were mainly withdrawn in 1966/1967 but 10 were kept on until 1971/1972 when two then became trainers, but eventually 39 were scrapped. One (82) is fortunately preserved after it had an extended life as a service vehicle/mobile generator in 1972 (this to be ready for the then three day week and power supply issues).

85 at the bottom of Manchester Road amid the 1960’s city centre demolition, the fine Alhambra theatre on the left is still magnificent today and the dome on the right was the then Gaumont Cinema where the Beatles also performed. Used/unused on /off for decades since 1968, it is now owned since 2013 by the Council who have to develop it. The absence of an AEC badge can also be noted on 85. (Stuart Emmett collection)

References
Bradford Corporation Motorbuses, J S King, 1995
Fleet History of Bradford Corporation, PB58, PSV Circle 1993

Stuart Emmett
05/2017

08/05/17 – 08:02

A most interesting account Stuart, and not one of which I was previously aware. Certainly, I do not recall such an event in the “Duckworth” group of routes where I lived, so perhaps it was a localised feeder problem, maybe at Five Lane Ends? I must say, I endorse your comments regarding the 1-40 group of motorbuses. They were comfortable, quiet, and smooth to such an extent, in my memory at least, to surpass anything before or since. Bradford had a history of using Weymann all metal bodywork from 1934 onwards with Daimler and AEC motorbus chassis, and also the 1938/9 Karrier E4 trolleybuses., so the Weymann Mk111s and the 8 BUTs were in the true Bradford spirit. The other main supplier, English Electric, did not supply bus bodies in the post war period, and Bradford turned to NCB and others for its alternative post war supply, including Leyland of course.
It was very rare for motorbuses to be seen on trolleybus routes. My only memory was a rush hour working on the 32 Chapel Lane service, with a CWA6, although “foreign” trolleys (Tracklesses as older Bradfordians referred to them !) often appeared from Thornbury on Duckworth Depot routes.
How nice it was to see the Weymann stock augmented by second hand trolleybus purchases from Notts and Derby and Brighton, although the 2 from Hastings never seemed to be quite as majestic somehow, perhaps because of their composite construction.
Thanks Stuart, for a most fascinating account.

John Whitaker

09/05/17 – 07:38

Thanks John
There is actually two mentions in Stan Ledgards books about your route 8 having buses on them John.
First one in “Nannying” in the early 1960’s when lower Westgate was closed due to a fire and buses used James Street inbound and Grattan Road and New John Street outbound. A photo on Leyland 63 is shown on 8.
Second one in “Show Up” on the 19th October 1967 when an inbound 8 took Godwin Street too fast and brought down wires and spans so bringing in buses on 8 and 16 for a few hours. RT 401 is shown on 8.

Stuart Emmett

09/05/17 – 07:38

I certainly agree that it was very rare for Bradford motorbuses to appear on trolleybus routes, although I do recall an instance (in the mid-sixties, probably) of travelling on a PD2 on service 38 (Pasture Lane). The 38 was a Thornbury depot route, and Thornbury depot was, at the time, a combined motorbus/trolleybus depot, perhaps that was a factor, or maybe a sudden shortage had led to a vehicle being summoned from Ludlam Street. One thing I do remember about that journey was that the driver must have been a bit rough for the conductress, and she took a tumble.
The only other occasion I can recall seeing motorbuses on a trolleybus route was one evening in late summer 1970, when the trolleys working the Duckworth Lane service were replaced by motorbuses for about an hour while a defective crossover received attention. The motorbuses used were dual-doorway Fleetlines of the 401-40 batch, which were new at the time. The service headway was ten minutes, so three vehicles would have been required to maintain the service.
It was Brighton which provided just two trolleys for Bradford, Hastings provided twelve. If I remember correctly, Bradford’s secondhand trolleys came from Notts & Derby (32), Maidstone & District (12 – new to Hastings Tramways), South Wales (10 – new to Llanelly & District), Darlington (9), St Helens (8), Mexborough & Swinton (7); Docaster (5 – new to Darlington), Brighton (2). Those totals relate to vehicles actually entering service in Bradford, many more were acquired for spares, of course.

David Call

09/05/17 – 16:59

Thanks for the 8 route information Stuart. I am sure there were several other such occasions which have not been recorded too.
With regard to the Hastings (MandD) trolleybuses which Bradford purchased, 802 – 813 were bodied by Park Royal. The 2 Weymanns to which I referred were 814 and 815. The remaining Hastings post war Weymanns were snapped up by Maidstone and Walsall.
Looking back at the late trolleybus “surge” in Bradford, I am always full of admiration for Mr Humpidge and his staff at the economical and efficient way they produced such modern style vehicles from older chassis. Longer and wider than the original. I am not an engineer, but The BCT staff of the time were extremely adept at the process in typical “waste not want not” Yorkshire style and deserve the greatest acclaim! Just a pity the abandonment process accelerated so quickly. I think Stanley King used the “silk purse” analogy when referring to the Bradford rebuilds!

John Whitaker

11/05/17 – 19:13

Hear hear on Mr Humpidge.
As I note in an upcoming article on Bradford’s trolleybuses in their pinnacle year, 1961, Bradford had the magical management of its General Manager, Chaceley Humpidge.
John King has also called him “The Apostle of the Trolleybus”.

Stuart Emmett

12/05/17 – 06:54

A great story. Bradford had some lovely buses, which were often overlooked by the attraction of the trolleybus fleet. Such big batches of buses were bought back in those days – a show of great confidence.
A small niggle. You observe that the AEC badges were absent from the tin-fronted models, whereas, in fact, they were relegated to the bottom of the radiator panels (which I always felt was an unjustified demotion for such an important manufacturer).

Petras409

13/05/17 – 07:06

…and painted over, by the look of the photo, Petras409!

Chris Hebbron

13/05/17 – 07:08

Sorry about that, Petras409! Mr Humpidge was keen to implant a “new image” to BCT and he decided to place enamel Bradford “coats of arms” where the AEC badge was meant to go, a practice continued with all new BCT stock until its demise. 66-105 also started the new standard destination layout.
I was a regular traveller on the BCT Mark Vs and must confess, they were the most jerky and noisy buses I ever rode on. As an enthusiast, I liked them, but the general public most certainly did NOT ! 106 -125 had monocontrol transmission, and a heavier style of Orion body, but 126 – 225 were the real culprits, and BCT decided to fit 224 and 225 with larger engines and monocontrol transmission in 1966. However, the remainder were not so treated.
I do not recall sampling 224 or 225 after this and would love to know whether any enthusiasts have such memories. Look forward to your next trolleybus offering Stuart and thanks for bringing it all back “to life” !

John Whitaker

13/05/17 – 07:10

Bradford`s Mark V AEC Regents.
I have always understood 121 – 125 as being fitted with monocontrol transmission, as were 106 – 120. However, my records show 106 etc as being type LD2RA, whereas 121 – 125 were 2D3RA. The subsequent 100 vehicles, with synchromesh transmission were also type 2D3RA even with this difference. There was obviously something different with 121 – 125 as they were the first withdrawals by some considerable time, not surviving like the others, until PTE takeover.
I always loved the AEC designation system from more traditional days, but the newer system from the Mk.V era is , to me anyway, most confusing!
I know that dry liner engines have something to do with it but if one of our contributors can explain all this, I would be most grateful!

John Whitaker

13/05/17 – 07:12

Yes, the Regent V’s did have AEC badges fitted, and it would certainly have been clearer if I had actually said something like “The absence of an AEC badge in the normal position can be noted”
There is however, actually, no AEC badge on HKW 85.
On all of the pictures I have of the Crossley fitted tin front HKW’s, none of them have AEC badges, despite the triangular space being there at the bottom.
Besides the Regent V’s and HKW’s, the coat of arms badges were fitted to all of the post 1956 re-bodied East Lancashire trolleybuses, to all of the Fleetlines and Atlanteans and to the small single decker fleet.
However, they were not used on the half cab front entrance Leyland’s and Daimlers.
I guess this was because it would be difficult to find an appropriate space on the standard Leyland and Daimler engine cowls, whereas they could be more easily fitted to the full fronts of the trolleys etc.
As an aside, the badges were made by Bradford’s Fattorini jewellers; who also made the 1911 FA Cup.
This is still being used today and the first winners of this cup was, coincidentally, Bradford City!

Stuart Emmett

13/05/17 – 09:50

Well Stuart….I never realised, looking back, that the Titan and Daimler F/E buses of post 1966 did not have the enamel coats of arms. I left Bradford in 1968 so perhaps have some excuse!
Great to hear the Fattorini connection mentioned too.
Up the Bantams!!

Just found a photo of 87 still with grey roof and therefore before its first repaint, and it is definitely fitted with the low placed AEC badge. My other photos of this batch do not seem to have them fitted, so it looks as though they were removed quite early on. I will check Stanley.s book and other sources to gain a “bigger picture”

John Whitaker

13/05/17 – 15:57

121-125 were definitely Monocontrol and the PSV Circle Fleet History shows them as being of type 2D2RA (i.e. the revised version with AV590 as opposed to A218 engine, amongst other things). Confusingly though it shows the first batch (106-120) as type MD2RA, which was the 27ft AV470 model, but I would presume that this was an unfortunate typo’ and that they should be LD2RA.

John Stringer

14/05/17 – 07:26

A most fascinating article Stuart, and thank you for posting it. As John (W) has pointed out, the event may well have been the result of a feeder problem or other localised issue, causing disruption until repairs were safely completed. Interestingly in Stanley King’s book ‘Bradford Corporation Trolleybuses’, the author states that in 1961 “an unusual crop of trolleybus dewirements (one outside the manager’s window) caused delays. In a normal year motor-bus failures exceeded trolleybus failures eleven months out of twelve, but in December, 1961, the trolleybus figures were less favourable than usual”. Around this time many transport undertakings, Bradford included, were experiencing staffing shortages.
Now this is purely speculation on my part, but could BCT’s 1961 trolleybus reliability problems have been due in part to a few hapless new recruits unwittingly dewiring vehicles at critical locations simply due to inexperience? If a dewirement took place due to inappropriate positioning or speed at a frog or crossover, the potential for serious overhead damage would be far greater than a dewirement on a stretch of straight wire for example. The time taken to repair any damage would probably take much longer, and damage at a junction or roundabout (such as the one at Five Lane Ends already mentioned) could obviously affect more than one route, as Stuart’s observations noted. Fifty six years after the event, I guess we’ll never really know what caused the ‘outage’, but it is still interesting to speculate nonetheless isn’t it?

Brendan Smith

United Automobile – Bristol SU – AHN 901B – S1

United Automobile Services
1964
Bristol SUL4A
ECW B36F

The Bristol SU series had a limited following amongst THC Companies. This example is in Ripon Bus Station in July 1968 about to set out on the lengthy run to Masham. I would imagine the Albion 4cyl engine would be quite noisy although probably not as bad as the Gardner 4LK as fitted to the earlier SC series.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

24/11/14 – 06:44

The SU series had the same gearbox as the earlier SC model and thus parts of the sound were similar on both models. Yes, the Albion Engine was noisy! The interior of the bus version was unusual in having inward facing seats over all four wheels. The Western National coach versions had normal forward facing seats throughout.
I remember riding on one or two of these buses on Ripon Market Day services, and I also once spent a day riding on Western National SU’s on various routes centred on Bridport. However I was most familiar with West Yorkshire’s SU models, working from Grassington outstation on service 72 between Grassington and Ilkley, which covered several miles of single-track roads around Appletreewick, and also passed through the narrow arch at Bolton Abbey.
I was lucky enough to ride on an SU at this years Kingsbridge Running Day, which brought back happy memories.

Don McKeown

24/11/14 – 06:44

The geographical area covered by United was vast, and obviously not every type of vehicle would be based at every depot. If any of the depots which ran services into Newcastle had any, they must have been used for local services as I cant ever remember seeing any of this type in the City.

Ronnie Hoye

24/11/14 – 09:42

Don I was at Ilkley depot in 1960/1 and worked on the Grassington service (which was 75 in those days). It was a lovely route as you say, but roadwise dreadful with dry stone walls, no kerbs or verges, Bolton Abbey Arch, Barden bridge, and hordes of motorists and others towing large caravans – many such drivers seemingly with not the vaguest idea of the dimensions of their vehicles. The famous West Yorkshire Bristol L/ECW saloon SG 103, converted by the Company to forward entrance OPO, was the basic performer on the full length weekday journeys on the route for many years. Very happy days indeed !!

Chris Youhill

24/11/14 – 17:04

Chris, many years later I would be a regular driver on what was by this time the 76 running between Skipton and Grassington via Bolton Abbey, covering the one time Ribble route from Skipton to Bolton Abbey and part of the original West Yorkshire route. Sadly by this time Leyland Nationals were in use on the service, but the scenery and the roads and bridges were still the same. Happy days indeed!

Don McKeown

24/11/14 – 17:05

The Bristol SU was noisy. The afternoon school special to Eldwick from Bingley Secondary Modern & Technical School was operated by a bus from the Keighley-Bingley via Morton service. Invariably this would be a Bristol SUL – from KSMA 1-4 or SMP 17. My over-riding memory of them is that the ride was hard and the engine extremely noisy. Mind you, what I’d give to ride on one today!

Kevin Hey

25/11/14 – 07:12

Don, not to digress too far, but during my time at Ilkley service 76 was my all time favourite – five hours a round trip – Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate, Wetherby, Tadcaster – shared by Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate and Wetherby depots. There was, however, one phenomenal outing for Grassington crews who used the Skipton depot bus for one round trip with, I think, a 71 from Skipton to Grassington before and after – or maybe they rode passenger to and from Grassington – its a long time ago now !!

Picture here of dear old SG 103 – a rare treat for passengers to share first hand the glorious symphony of the Gardner 5LW, and no excess fare either !! Apologies for diverging from the United topic, but this is in a similar vein I feel.

Chris Youhill

25/11/14 – 07:13

Western/Southern National were by far the biggest users of the SU, taking 133 of the 181 built. By contrast, 323 examples of the SC4LK were produced, but none of these went to Southern/Western National. I drove the ex Western National SUL4A buses 318/347/355/417 EDV and the coach bodied 269 KTA when they were owned by Tillingbourne of Chilworth, near Guildford, between 1972 and 1975. As I (now somewhat shakily) recall, the gearbox was certainly a David Brown unit, but the gear selector positions were more logical than those of the SC4LK, examples of which I also drove for Tillingbourne. Some sources say that this was a synchromesh gearbox. It was not; it was constant mesh. The four cylinder Albion engine of 4.1 litres was effectively 2/3 of the Leyland six cylinder O375 engine as used in the Tiger Cub, and it was not noted for its reliability in the contemporary Nimbus. It developed 72 bhp at 2,200 rpm, rather more than the 57 bhp at 2,100 rpm of the 3.8 litres Gardner 4LK in the SC, and the SU was decidedly more lively in performance than its lightweight Bristol forebear. It also felt more solid than the Nimbus, and was quite pleasant to drive. A rather careworn 417 EDV is shown on the rural road between Colgate and Roffey Corner, near Horsham, very shortly before it was withdrawn in June 1975. The windscreen of the coach bodywork on 269 KTA had a distinct “vee” shape, and this gave severe reflection problems in the cab from the saloon lighting during hours of darkness. Sister vehicle 270 KTA has been preserved as shown in this link:- //upload.wikimedia.org/_Western_National_420_270KTA

Roger Cox

25/11/14 – 08:51

Ah, Roffey Corner, Roger; shades of Basil Williams’ Hants and Sussex empire!

Chris Hebbron

25/11/14 – 17:40

The service from Grassington to Ilkley is now run by Pride of the Dales using Optare Solos which fit through the Bolton Abbey arch comfortably.
Grassington depot is now a postal sorting office and the car park boasts a small bus station.
Some 30 years ago I was travelling between Appletreewick and Grassington when I met a WYRCC RESL on a school journey coming the other way we passed with inches to spare in a passing place, I never knew until then how many rivets ECW put in a bus!
Even further back in the mists of time in the sixties I once caught the bus from Grassington to Kettlewell on this occasion the bus was packed as it was market day. The bus was a LS and carried a very vintage guard presumably from Grassington depot. Happy days.

Chris Hough

26/11/14 – 17:07

Many of the Western and Southern National SUs worked on Guernsey for a number of years following withdrawal on the mainland.

Chris Hough

26/11/14 – 18:00

As a known SU fan I’m glad so many are preserved including one in Colin Billington’s collection which is preserved in Guernsey Delta Tours livery. One of my pictures of this can be seen at https://www.flickr.com/photos/one although I prefer SUS and one of these is shown at https://www.flickr.com/photos/two

Ken Jones

27/11/14 – 15:05

The SU was designed to meet a requirement for small buses at the start of the 1960s by Western/Southern National to replace rebodied pre-war Bristol L types. Unfortunately, by that time all the other Tilling companies with such a requirement (Lincolnshire, Crosville and Eastern Counties, which had not generally rebodied their pre-war saloons) had re-equipped with the Bristol SC4LK in the mid 1950s. As a result, Western/Southern National took 133 out of the 181 SUs built, and the balance went in only small numbers (often 5 or 6) to other Tilling Group companies. Of these, West Yorkshire had the largest number, taking 18, but these were then scattered around the depots – for example the allocation on 1 January 1965, the first day that all 18 were in service, was Grassington (1); Harrogate (2); Ilkley (1); Keighley (2); Malton (2); Pateley Bridge (2); Skipton (1) and York (1 + 6 York-West Yorkshire). This guaranteed that the type was regarded as an “oddity” at every depot, and we all know what drivers think of oddities…. I know that at York, drivers admitted to using the (fairly inadequate) brakes more than necessary so that they were able to book it off after the morning peak, for the brakes to be adjusted. The Western/Southern National drivers HAD to accept them, by virtue of the quantity in the fleet, and so no doubt they learned how best to drive them, and how to get the best out of them.
As one of the small, elite band of SU owners and drivers in 2014 I can confirm that on the level (and downhill!) they have a respectable turn of speed. On a suitable road or Motorway a steady 50-55 mph can be maintained all day long, making long distance rallying enjoyable. Hills are more of a problem; the small engine itself isn’t the whole story, though, as the David Brown gearbox has an unfortunately large gap between 3rd and 4th gear, which guarantees that once down to 3rd gear it remains in that, at 25 mph, until the top of the hill is reached!
Like Ken I am an unashamed SU fan and wouldn’t change mine for anything else.

Trevor Leach

27/11/14 – 16:13

Ken says he prefers the shorter SUS model. The Bristol Omnibus Co. had nine of them – in three batches, and here is their former 301 (862 RAE), a SUS4A with ECW B30F body, one of three new in 1962. Withdrawn in 1971 it passed to North’s, the dealer, of Sherburn-in-Elmet in Yorkshire at whose premises it is pictured here in 1972. It then saw service with Primrose Valley Coaches of Filey and later Phillips of Shiptonthorpe with whom it lasted until around 1983. It then passed to a Barnsley breaker, but was reprieved and after a few more owners it was last reported as preserved by Mike Ellis of Stroud – 301’s original allocation when new.

John Stringer

28/11/14 – 06:36

Thanks for the SUS pictures [Trevor hope you and your wife are well]- I don’t know if 862 RAE has been out recently – I last saw it in 2012. There’s an article from a few years ago [with pictures] at www.focustransport.org.uk/

Ken Jones

15/07/21 – 06:45

I always loved United Autos buses, moving to Leeds in 1962 didn’t dampen my ardour, in fact it increased. On my visits to Middlesbrough from where I had moved, I was in awe of their vehicles and you can imagine my glee when I used often to travel on a United vehicle in the shape of the X99 service to get there from Leeds.

David Walton

Eastern Counties – Bristol VR – NGM 157G – VR 316

Eastern Counties Omnibus Company
1969
Bristol VR/SL6G
ECW H43/34F

We don’t yet have any pictures of the Bristol VR on OBP, so here is one of the early examples that earned something of a dubious reputation. Sitting in the 1976 spring sunshine at Ely depot is Eastern Counties VR 316, NGM 157G, a VR/SL6G with ECW H43/34F body. As its typically Scottish destination aperture indicates, this was one of the first production batch of VRs that went to the Scottish Bus Group, where their unreliability became the stuff of legend. SBG took a total of 109 VRs, 25 of which were of the 33ft long VRT/LL type:- Alexander (Midland), 15 VRT/SL6G; Central SMT, 20 VRT/SL6G; Eastern Scottish, 10 VRT/SL6G; Scottish Omnibuses, 25 VRT/LL6G; Western SMT, 39 VRT/SL6G. After this early VR experience, the SBG never bought any more Bristol double deckers. The full, sad story may be found at this site:- www.svbm.org.uk/lfs288f.html
In 1971, Alexander (Midland) exchanged its fifteen VRTs for fifteen Eastern National FLF6Gs. Thus emboldened, SBG determined to get rid of the rest of its utterly unloved (and, it has to be said, uncared for) VRs in exchange for Gardner engined FLFs. Among the recipients designated by NBC was United Counties, who cannily sent a Lodekka north of the border, only to have it summarily rejected by virtue of its Bristol powerplant. UCOC thus escaped the fate of some fellow NBC operators, and had no Scottish VRs thrust upon it. Eastern Counties was not so lucky, and ultimately had a total of 33, some being of the particularly troublesome 82 seat VRT/LL6G 33ft long variety. The mechanical condition of all these machines on arrival was atrocious. NGM 157G, a VRT/SL6G, entered service with Central SMT in December 1969, but lasted there only until 1973, when it was despatched with six others of the same type to Eastern Counties. The other Central SMT VRs went to Alder Valley, Lincolnshire, Southern Vectis and United Auto. VR 316 survived to pass into the hands of Cambus in August 1984, when it gained the new number 503. It was ultimately scrapped, date unknown. Astonishingly, four of the former SBG VRs seem to have been preserved, two of them ex ECOC.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

16/10/14 – 04:34

By coincidence, yesterday I met an enthusiast who was formerly a member of United Automobile’s management. He told me about the arrival of the VRT’s transferred to United from Western SMT. They were collected from Carlisle, and found to be in appalling condition. However they were all overhauled before entering service, and afterwards led full, trouble-free lives with United.
Alexander Midland’s fifteen VRT’s were all transferred to Eastern National as part of the exchange scheme, and many of these were eventually transferred to Crosville around 1981/2 following the MAP scheme, which required more double-deckers in rural North Wales. Most of these were allocated to Bangor Depot, but we had SMS 43H at Caernarfon Depot, where it was a great favourite of mine. At first the four speed gearbox seemed an oddity, but despite this the bus performed well and I often drove it on duties which it would not normally have operated; in particular I often took this VR on the “last Llandudno” in preference to the scheduled Olympian; I also often took it on the Porthmadog route and over the Llanberis Pass on the Snowdon Sherpa.
I can’t help feeling that the Scottish Bus Group gave up too easily with these buses.

Don McKeown

16/10/14 – 14:33

Ironic. My CAPTCHA code for this response is 3DMS! Nevertheless, as one of Bristol’s biggest fans the VR was one of my least favourites. I know the LH probably was worse and I’m no lover of any of the 5 cylinder models but the VR suffered from the same disease as many buses which came before and after. It was rushed onto the market with insufficient R & D so it neither had the character of its predecessors nor the good manners and reliability of the RE. One could say, however that the Series IV got it right. Series IV? Well what was the Olympian? A successor which started out as a Bristol and a development of the VR. Not only that. It became a classic and one of the best deckers ever built.

David Oldfield

16/10/14 – 14:33

What a very interesting link, thanks for posting it.

Roger Broughton

17/10/14 – 05:20

This photo brings back happy memories of Cambridge Rd., ELY, where I grew up, and the depot where my uncle, Walter Long worked for E.C.O.C. as a conductor up until retirement, finishing up at Hills Rd., Cambridge depot.
I also worked for them, first as a crew driver, then OMO at Cambridge. One Saturday, a rest day…two of us were sent to Norwich with two LKDs which would barely reach 35 mph in the pouring rain to bring back two Scottish VRs. It was terribly slow progress, but on our return journey, the sun came out, and I for one really enjoyed the drive back.
The two VRs were the subject of great interest amongst the drivers, being slightly larger than the ones we already had with a higher seating capacity, and the triangular destination panel. I remember that their livery was yellow, but cannot recall where they were from exactly. It was a very nice piece of overtime, and we all thought that we had got the best of the bargain in the exchange that day.

Norman Long

17/10/14 – 05:21

That’s a fascinating article on the SVBM website. Could SBG have persevered with its VRTs and resolved the problems? or was SBG determined to revert to a sort of technological dark-age?? (witness the subsequent preponderance of high-floor/manual gearbox/non-power-assisted SDs … even on Central’s largely urban network).
Is Ely depot still open? (presumably it would be Stagecoach now).

Philip Rushworth

19/10/14 – 05:49

Roger- this tale and the link are fascinating. The bus we thought was blameless wasn’t: Wulfrunian, Atlantean, VR: can anyone dish the dirt on the Fleetline or did Daimler get it so right when the Roadliner got it so wrong? Then of course Hilditch’s (was it?) Dominator of which we do not speak on this site?
SBG did not seem to trust new technology, even if it worked and when it didn’t, well… it also seemed to distrust its drivers. There were of course engineers like this, even perhaps including Donald Stokes whose Triumph Herald could only be described as primitive- a sort of third world concept of basic, accessible engineering: the irony being that these VR’s ended up with Herald bonnet latches. The VR’s I knew had exhaust sounds that any boy-racer would be proud of…and every time one comes up I ask here about those hatches which could have been rear engine Cave Brown Caves but through which you sucked the top-deck fag ends: is that so? did they work? What an essay in political interference, swinging first one way, then the other- and the futility and waste of command economies applied through the grant. The locals think they are in charge, and take the rap for failure… but we pull the financial strings. NHS, Buses, Rail, Education… what else?

Joe

20/10/14 – 06:58

I was given a Triumph Herald 13/60 by my company on the pretext that the small printing machines we had to demonstrate could be easily slid in and out of the lip-less boot (not to mention the fact that the company was too mean to buy estate cars). When it had to be replaced we ended up with Vauxhall Viva Estates. I know which I preferred, and it wasn’t built in Luton or Ellesmere Port.

Phil Blinkhorn

20/10/14 – 06:59

The Ely garage closed quite many years ago. After closing as an operational garage the forecourt (where the VR in the photo is parked) was used as an outstation location for a while.
I only live about 14 miles from Ely but when I do visit I don’t travel along the road where the garage was. I seem to recall the site was where the cluster of newish houses now is to the north of Samuels Way.
I can’t recall if the Ely garage site ever got into Stagecoach ownership – it may have been sold under the pre-Stagecoach owned Cambus.

David Slater

20/10/14 – 17:07

Words like Devil and Deep Blue Sea or Frying Pan and Fire spring to mind over your car choice, Phil. At least a heavy printing machine might stop the rear wheels folding up too often, but if I recall the boot floor wasn’t flat? The Herald had more character than a soulless Viva, at least…

Joe

20/10/14 – 17:08

When the organisation, I worked for was privatised, company car were instituted for those who travelled a fair amount. It started with Talbot Horizons, with the Tagora for more senior staff. I managed to reject the Tagora because I discovered that they would not allow towing bars to be fitted – it lowered the value, they said, not realising that there was no second-hand value in them to start with! In point of fact, I had no caravan! The next, middle-manager cars were Montegos and I did the same again. Eventually late-model Ford Sierras came along and the excuse of a caravan enabled me to get a 2.0 litre GLX. I never fitted a towbar, though! The seats in it were the most comfortable I’ve ever known, enabling me to drive all day with never an ache! With cars like Talbots and Maestro/Mondeos, it’s no wonder we have no indigenous car industry nowadays!

Chris Hebbron

20/10/14 – 17:09

For those who may wish to check out the location, the garage was on the A10- Cambridge Rd., ELY, on the left as you head north, just before the right hand bend where the road becomes St Mary’s St.

Norman Long

21/10/14 – 06:14

Norman has given the location of the Ely depot as I remember it. Back in time, the A10 went right through Ely centre, along Cambridge Road, St Mary’s Street and then Lynn Road, and the bus depot faced directly on to it. I believe that the place did pass into Cambus ownership, but I don’t know when it was pulled down. Sadly, the typical Tilling garage of which Ely was an example, is a rarity nowadays.
Turning to Chris’s point, I have to disagree. I’ve driven company cars of several origins, including Ford, Chrysler/Talbot and Vauxhall, and had a 2 litre Montego for my daily 100 mile round journey to/from work whilst at Kentish Bus. In performance, roadholding, reliability and interior space, it beat the Sierra and Cavalier of the Chief Engineer and Company Secretary respectively hands down. When I left, thanks to privatisation, I bought a Maestro. The BL knocking game was utterly childish, and yes, I once had an Allegro, a model that received stupid criticism from people who had never even sat in one. The quartic steering wheel that petrolheads waffle on about disappeared within the first year, and all could be replaced under warranty. The much derided styling foreshadowed the almost universal blobby shapes of present day saloon cars. Our first (1981) Metro lasted 19 years and still passed its MoT when I decided to replace it.

Roger Cox

21/10/14 – 15:05

Joe, the Herald 13/60 had a flat boot floor. The printing machines weighed 112lbs with more than half the weight on a less than a third of the machine platform so a flat, lip-less boot was essential. As for performance, the car was nippy, had a great turning circle and great visibility with narrow pillars. It also had height adjustable seats.

Phil Blinkhorn

22/10/14 – 07:14

Thanks for the information about Ely depot: as I get progressively less interested in current operations its the relics of times past that increasingly interest me.
I used to aspire to owning a new Montego, being a quality (well in my opinion – and a step up from the Triumph Dolomite/Van den Plas 1750 I was then driving) British-built and British-owned car that I could afford. Now, I’m running Audi and Skoda as there isn’t any British owned and built car within a reasonable price bracket.

Philip Rushworth

21/04/15 – 06:18

This picture brings back memories, I used to spend a lot of time here as a bus mad school boy and remember the Eastern Counties staff there being very tolerant and patient towards a young enthusiast like myself.
Behind the garage on a patch of land they used to park up withdrawn vehicles from Cambridge garage, I remember their last two Bristol RESL being there for ages and also a pair of ex Cambridge FLFs.
I remember the ex SBG long VRLLs but by the time I was interested they were all allocated to Norwich depot, never realised how special they were, being more interested in the Bristol Lodekka LFS, FLF and LFL that were still running about at the time.

Brian Kay

28/07/17 – 16:37

We were unlucky to receive some of the SBG VR,s at Alder Valley in Reading, the union blacked them for a while because of their 4 speed gearboxes claiming they were too slow on the longer routes. When we started receiving mk 2 VR’s some non power assisted ones were fitted with Alder Valley’s own air assisted steering, these were terrible as the steering used to go solid at low speed which did not feel safe.
The Mk.3 was a big improvement, nice steering and gearbox especially the very last batch we had with good heaters by your feet at last!

Ray Hunt

Crosville – Bristol SC4LK – 803 FFM – CSG 623

Copyright Ian Wild

Crossville
1958
Bristol SC4LK
ECW DP33F

Here we have Crosville CSG623 seen outside the small depot in Llanwrst, Conwy, Wales in September 1967. This is one of 24 Bristol SC4LK with Eastern Coachworks DP33F body supplied to Crosville but by the time of this photo it had acquired bus livery and was ending its days as an omo vehicle on rural services. This model in coach form was supplied mainly to Crosville and Lincolnshire Road Car. Unless they had significantly better sound insulation than the bus version, they must have been pretty dreadful vehicles in which to travel any distance.
The other vehicle parked in the depot doorway is another Bristol SC4LK registration 802 FFM fleet number CSG622.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

04/05/11 – 11:47

I used hate driving the type back in the 60’s and early 70’s at Pwllheli’s Crosville depot. Gutless wonders and noisy too boot. Having said that in crawler gear they would easily ,though very slowly, ascend the steepest of hills, reckon one would shin up a telegraph pole too. It was virtually impossible to run early with the type. They were handy when delivering parcels as there was ample stowage room alongside the port side of the 4 cylinder Gardner “power plant” in the cab for bulky items , apart from exhaust pipes from Groom’s Porthmadog. Fare collection was not all that easy either as passengers entered the vehicle behind the driver rather than alongside. Gear changing was fun as they were not selected in the normal H pattern. A case of all over the place and hit and miss operation in the 5 forward box. Now I would give my eye teeth, allbethem false, to have a day behind an SC4 wheel. Never satisfied and ready to grumble, always the driver’s way! Wonder if that’s really true in my case as I passed my PSV back in 1960 and am still engaged driving coaches on a part time basis. If the lottery comes up I’ll buy one. Well we can take that as a never then cant we!

Evan Herbert

07/05/11 – 06:12

Thanks for sharing the experience of driving the SC4LK Evan. My experience of the type is limited to a journey from Llanwrst to Betws y Coed (pretty flat) in genuine SC days and then a trip from Beaumaris to Bangor when Crosville Wales tried them as a bit of a novelty in the 1990s. The route turned right away from the estuary up a fearsome hill, the noise level and vibration in the saloon whilst climbing was excruciating! But the old SC just took it in its stride.

Ian Wild

03/06/11 – 07:27

I remember the service from Beaumris To Penrhyn Castle using SLC12/13 I travelled to the old MOLD depot to pick up one them and then I drove one all day every SATURDAY what fun. I’m Retired now but still watch the Modern Buses go by and I often wonder what these Young drivers that drive along the flat roads of the Fens where I now live would do with the old SLC on a good Welsh Hill

Ieuan Williams

03/06/11 – 17:07

Ieuan, you should meet a friend of mine who is still a driver for First Leeds – he has a wicked mischievous sense of humour !! A few years ago he was involved in the preservation of a Leeds City Transport AEC Regent 1 of 1934, and parked it briefly at a City Centre bus stop. A newly qualified young lady driver was among a few waiting to take buses over, and my mate said to her “Are you waiting for running number **** love ??” “Yes I am” she replied.
“Oh good, this is yours then” said he, and walked away nonchalantly. They reckoned her face was a picture !!

Chris Youhill

08/06/11 – 09:55

Back in the mid 60s as a kid we had family at Llanbedrog who we’d stay with, I’d get out on the local Crosville routes. The R17 Sarn Bach-Abersoch-Pwllheli seemed always to be an SC bus, as were the short workings on the R26 from Pwllheli to Porthmadog.
The SCs seemed to go everywhere. By about 1965 it seemed Pwllheli depot had gone fully OMO with some new MWs for the R26/R27, and now had just 1 seasonal Lodekka on shorts to Butlins.
This was a shame as I was still to experience a ride on a Lodekka. My first ever sight of one, an LD at the tollgate at Boston Lodge had me in awe, it was an R26 heading to Blaenau Ffestiniog, fully blinded with Criccieth, Portmadoc (I think it was referred to at the time) and Maentwrog in the intermediate blind.
I had a few trips on the MWs too, often back to Abersoch as an R19 or R20, with a consequent long walk back along the Warren Beach to Llanbedrog over the cliff.
My last service ride on a Crosville SC was from Wrexham in about 1975, on a short working of the D1 to Acrefair.
I don’t remember much about the noise, but when you put your cash in the tray for the driver it would jingle up and down with the engine vibration. I also remember the occasional crunching gear changes.
In the early 70s the route network around Pwllheli seemed to get cut back and frequencies reduced. I seem to remember there were some of the early Perkins engined Bristol LHs (SLPs) in use there by then? I didn’t ride on them at the time as I had little interest in them, but now wish that I had done!
It was great to read Evan’s first hand experiences of the type, especially so in the context of Pwllheli.

Keith Jackson

14/09/11 – 07:53

Evan you would like to drive an SC again, where abouts in the country do you live?
In the following post to yours Ian discusses his memories of the SC and the trips from Penrhyn to Beaumaris Castles with SC 12 & 13.
SC 13 has been off the road all of this year with engine problems but I have just managed to re-build the engine and it went back on the road last Friday when it journeyed to Lincoln to have it’s MOT.
Hopefully it will be at Meadowhall this weekend.

Gordon Burkinshaw

16/09/11 – 09:31

Hi Gordon. Still live in former SC territory, Pistyll close to Nefyn on the Lleyn Peninsula. Been doing a bit of casual driving for Clynnog and Trefor Motor Co Ltd. Usually NX dupes and privates using B12M’s. Ugh didgie tachos.

Evan Herbert

18/09/11 – 06:14

Hi Evan,
Nice to hear that you still live in a lovely part of the world.
I will try and get SC13 over to Llandudno next year so perhaps you might manage to meet up if I do.
Will keep you informed.

Gordon Burkinshaw

25/09/11 – 20:40

Glad to hear that SC13 is back on the road Gordon. My memories are of SSG677 and CSG637 at Holyhead around 1970-71. They were the only buses from the Holyhead depot that could be used on the N1 service to Amlwch because of the narrow lanes around Llanfairynghornwy.
I’m now re-living my Bristol SC days as I have a Gardner 4LK in our narrow boat!

Tim

20/11/11 – 13:41

Not a bus enthusiast as such, but missed seeing the lovely green buses on a nostalgic return to Abersoch. The green livery fits well with the scenery. Websites like this help to relive happy memories of trips around the Lyn peninsula (we didn’t have a car back then).
Thank you for the photos.

Mr Anon

26/04/12 – 12:13

It’s so good to read about the old buses but what about the drivers who drove them, is there any left out there from the North Wales depots i.e Caernarfon, Bangor and The Isle of Anglesey please let us know.

Ieuan Williams

28/04/12 – 08:02

Just found your site as I recall we used to have a couple of these in Oswestry when I was younger. I was really trying to find out what happened to a bus I use to travel on a great deal, Bristol RE fleet number SRG 208. As for the buses in the photo I think ours in Oswestry had very slow sliding door, but I may have that wrong as it is a good few years ago.

Kevin Young

27/08/12 – 11:17

Kevin, I have photos of former Oswestry RE SRG208 which may be of interest to you. They illustrate where she went after disposal by Crosville Wales and how she met her unfortunate end…
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/ 1
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/ 2
I hope they are not too distressing for you!

Crisparmour

02/10/12 – 14:59

Why did the David Brown gearbox on the SC4LK have a strange gear pattern from third to fourth coupled with a large difference in gear ratios? I believe high revs were needed in third before engaging fourth.
Was this box primarily designed for use in other applications?

Nigel Richards

18/04/13 – 07:15

The Bristol SUL4A’s operated by Southern Vectis had the same David Brown box with similarly queer gears, I never did quite get the hang of them, but the men who drove them regularly got used to it and could make those buses fly on the level!

Patrick Hall

14/08/13 – 06:22

I was the last manager at Llanrwst before it was made into an outstation of Llandudno at the end of summer 1969. Mind you I was only 19 at the time and a trainee as they did not want to appoint another permanent manager.
These buses used to go on all the routes and had great fuel consumption in the hands of some drivers. Over 20 mpg I recall.
There was one journey which was very busy during the summer and that was the 15:00hrs to Betws and Cwm Penmachno. There would sometimes be people hanging out of the door leaving Llanrwst.
Some of them later made their way to Liverpool and the drivers used to refer to them having Welsh gearboxes.

Mike Lambden

15/08/13 – 07:00

Re Patrick Hall’s comment (Hi! Pat haven’t spoken for a while) Many years ago I was totally confused by one driver at Minehead, Western National, who referred to the climbing abilities of the ‘David Browns’ they had – and there are some real hills around here!! To me a David Brown was a tractor and it took me some while to fathom out that he was talking about the SU’s, being a clever clogs teenager it was beneath me to ask – oh how I wish I had asked more questions of the old drivers.

David Grimmett

15/08/13 – 11:56

On the subject of David Brown gearboxes, the six speed type used on lorries caught out many a driver until they got used to them. It was a normal left to right ‘H’ layout 1/4, but 5/6 were the other way round, so you went round the gate from 4 to 5, then forward for 6
        1 3 6
       -I-N-I
    R 2 4 5

Ronnie Hoye

24/04/14 – 09:31

I’ve got many fond memories of Crosville from the early 70s as a teenager spending a weeks camping trip at school near Beddgelert, I distinctly remember after all these years seeing srg1/3 and 5 in the area plus the then new Bristol LH’s, I also sneaked off to Caernarfon to visit the depot but can’t remember what was allocated there as my records have been long lost, also remember seeing a few FLF’s at Rhyl and a few RE’s/MWs? On the road bus spotting at London Victoria I always kept a sharp eye out for any CRL’s, I always thought they looked superb in the Crosville cream/green livery. As a midlander brought up on Midland Red I have to say Crosville was right up there and visiting nth Wales now has a little something missing, still got the great memories tho!

Wally

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

24/11/14 – 06:37

I’ve only just caught up with this posting from three years ago. Ieuan Williams asks if there are any old drivers from Crosville in North Wales still out here. I was a driver at Caernarfon Depot from 1977 to 1986 and remember Ieuan very well. I would love to get in touch with him through this site!

Don McKeown

History and Geography

Redevelopment is so last century

FS56 VEGA/SUPER VEGA

FS60 SUPER VEGA

FS32 VEGA

FS42 VEGA

FS46 VEGA/SUPER VEGA

United Automobile Services1964Bristol SUL4AECW B36F

Eastern Counties Omnibus Company1969Bristol VR/SL6GECW H43/34F

Crossville1958Bristol SC4LKECW DP33F

United Automobile Services
1964
Bristol SUL4A
ECW B36F

Eastern Counties Omnibus Company
1969
Bristol VR/SL6G
ECW H43/34F

Crossville
1958
Bristol SC4LK
ECW DP33F