Author: admin

Smiths Luxury Coaches – Leyland Titan TD7 – EDK 648

Smiths Luxury Coaches - Leyland Titan TD7 - EDK 648
Photograph taken by Stuart Wyss

Smiths Luxury Coaches (Reading) Ltd
1940
Leyland Titan TD7
English Electric H30/26R

Once again I am most grateful to Stuart Wyss for this photo.
Peter Greave’s recent comment on that handsome Rochdale Regent III and Chris Youhill’s mention of the Leyland 8.6-litre engine prompted me to send this English Electric-bodied Leyland TD7 of 1940, which I guess must have been Rochdale Corporation no 170. It had gone from Smith’s by 1964, and most probably by 1960. Another double decker that migrated south to spend its final years as a contract bus. If I find more info, I’ll put it up: even better, OBP friends may be able to shed more light.

Hopefully.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Thompson

15/02/11 – 15:10

I was delighted to find this picture of a 1940 Rochdale TD7 with English Electric body.
After my article on EEC bodies, I was hoping to see as many as possible of the 1937 re-design. There were far fewer EEC bodies built after this date, Southend, Bradford and Barrow being the only ones I could bring to mind, but there were others, including Rochdale. Any more?
This delivery in 1940 must have been among the last genuine EEC bodies built, and it clearly illustrates the design difference from the pre-1937 style. Again, I wonder why it was not more successful.

John Whitaker

16/02/11 – 06:07

A lot of later English Electric bodies were to customer’s design, Manchester’s notably, as a lot of others were just one-offs. The bodies I can find photographs of built to the final style were for Ashton, Salford, Barrow, Rochdale and Glasgow (although the latter appears to have more than a bit of Weymann styling). In addition lowbridge bodies were built for Central SMT and Newcastle.
Some operators seemed to stick with more traditional designs – as far as I can tell Preston did but there are only photographs of the interiors of the last batches.

David Beilby

16/02/11 – 17:39

I really appreciate your info. re. EEC bodies, and will check out those you mention at Ashton, Salford and Glasgow. Southend’s were to lowbridge layout. Rochdale, Barrow, and Bradford I know about, I am aware of Preston building to operators own style, such as Manchester c.1940/1, but had no idea that SMT and Newcastle had lowbridge bodies by EEC.

John Whitaker

I now live in Sutton on Sea on the Lincolnshire coast following living in Reading for a period of 60years.
I remember Smith’s Coaches for the many journey’s I was able to enjoy.
I can remember that on a Saturday morning the Coaches would all be ready to travel being parked in Mill Lane and all up Southampton street to destinations all along the South coast.
Smith’s did a great service to all those people who wished either to journey for a week’s holiday, or for a good day out. of recent I have stayed at the Premier Inn now situated at what was Mill Lane in Reading , so it does bring back very fond memories.

Dennis Hall

01/05/12 – 19:43

Smiths of Reading purchased EDK 645/6/7/8/9 (RCT 167/8/9/70/1) with EE bodies and EDK 650/2/3 (RCT 172/4/5) with ECW bodies via W. North. They arrived at Smiths between July and September 1956 and departed during 1959 and 1960.

Mac Head

01/05/12 – 20:53

Recently I had a long and fascinating talk with Jim Foster, a Smith’s driver from 1962 till 1973. We went through some of my photos (taken by Graham Low and Stuart Wyss) and some of Jim’s own, and watched a black and white film of drivers building the Rose Kiln Lane garage after the war, with commentary by Mrs Jackie Mills, the Guv’nor’s daughter. Also in the film are stills of Dennises and Bedfords lined up in Mill Lane ready to leave with excursion passengers bound for Southsea and who knows where else.
Jim mentioned that Smiths themselves built some bodies, but I wonder whether they were extensive rebuilds of some of the bodies that came off the prewar Leyland Cheetahs. The nice straight waistrail and window spacing are clues. Apologies to Doug Adams—I didn’t reply to his January comment—but John Whitehead and I continue to glean morsels of Smith’s history. More when available.

Ian Thompson

08/06/12 – 06:42

Thanks for uploading the photo. I am looking for more photos of the Smiths Bedford OB’s if anybody has any. I am working on EDP 757 and would love to see anything on these vehicles in service. Keep up the great site

Chris Whitehead

12/09/13 – 08:30

Just found the Smiths website. I have pictures no one has seen, taken when I worked at Smiths in the 1962 era., and I plan to put them out for every one to share some time. I was known as the man with the camera. I then went on Horsemans a few times, and HGV driving also became a Driving Instructor with Beeline and HGV instructor as well, as they say watch this space.

Dave Doe

13/09/13 – 06:30

We’ll look forward to seeing your photos, Dave.

Chris Hebbron

13/09/13 – 16:30

Looking forward very much to seeing Dave Doe’s photos. If I remember right, Dave used to keep a camera just behind the windscreen of his coach and never missed a good shot. Welcome to the fold!

Ian Thompson

03/10/15 – 12:31

MCY 406
MCY 406 after hitting Vastern Road Bridge. (Picture Dave Doe)

NUR 17
Myself with NUR 17 prior to Abergavenny or a night. (Picture Dave Doe

I am sorry about delay in sending any pictures of Smiths Coaches promised in 2013, but I lost the email. I am enclosing a couple of pictures from my vast library of employment pictures. My collection consists of numerous staff pictures and vehicles and unusual pictures never seen before.
I enjoyed my time at Smiths, with many laughs and incidents. I will try and send others.

David Doe

07/10/15 – 07:01

MCY 406

Here is a picture of MCY 406 before it entered into its argument with the bridge.

Roger Cox

17/11/15 – 11:04

Dave: Good to see your photos of those two Smith’s vehicles. Looking forward to seeing plenty more when you can dig them out, and to hearing a few anecdotes too!
Roger: Thanks for the pre-decapitation picture of MCY 406. Confession: although I’m usually sorry to see any vehicle come to grief, I never had any affection for those Regent Vs; they seemed inferior to the ex-Leeds PD1s, the ex-Oxford and ex-Rhondda Regent IIIs, the ex-London RTs, the Lancet IIIs and the quaint collection of heavy single-deck chassis bearing rebuilt Alexander bodywork from Leyland Cheetahs.

Ian Thompson

18/11/15 – 07:25

Ian, my sole driving experiences with Regent Vs took place with the Halifax examples, and it would be an understatement to say that I was unimpressed. How AEC, having made the highly civilised Regent III, could then substitute it with so uncouth a beast as the Regent V baffles me to this day. I’ve sometimes suspected that the crash gearbox versions of the Regent III were just as rough and raucous as the synchromesh V, though your comment suggests that this was not the case. I suppose that the Monocontrol Vs were smoother and quieter runners than the synchromesh ones. Perhaps someone could confirm.

Roger Cox

21/01/16 – 07:30

Hi I worked in the body shop 1968 to 1978. I actually built a new roof for that double decker with Les Cooper.

Barry Armstrong

01/05/18 – 05:58

Does Barry Armstrong have any info. on how much rebuilding was found to be required on the early RTs bought by Smiths in the late ’50s. There’s a picture of one (FXT 283),taken in 1963,that appears to have had its upper-deck windows replaced.

John Hardman

03/05/18 – 06:20

I’ve just seen Roger Cox’s query from 18/11/15 – 07:25 about AEC Regent Vs. The early D2RA version, with A218 engine and Monocontrol transmission, was every bit as civilised as a Regent III, if not more so in some cases, at least from a passenger point of view. The later 2D2RA, with AV590 engine, sounded more like a Routemaster being driven in semi-automatic mode.

Peter Williamson

22/08/20 – 05:35

One of the ex-Rochdale TD7s, EDK 650 with ECW body, was later with Marchwood Motorways, still in Smiths blue and orange livery, and was used for at least a couple of years from about 1959 or 1960 transporting pupils from the Marchwood/Hythe/Fawley area to Totton Grammar School. I never managed to get a photo of it. I wonder whether anyone else did?

John Livermore

Ribble – Leyland Titan TD7 – RN 8979 – 2323

RN 8979

Ribble Motor Services
1940
Leyland Titan TD7
Leyland L27/26R

I cannot now remember where in 1960 I took this rather sad picture of
RN 8979, a former Ribble Leyland TD7 with Leyland L27/26R bodywork, or who the operator then was. The old telephone code HIL (for Hillside) covered the Barnt Green area of Birmingham, which might help to identify the operator. Confirmed Leyland aficionado Ribble must have counted itself lucky to obtain a batch of forty TD7s in May 1940 just after the German attack in France had brought the Phoney War to a violent end.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

12/11/18 – 07:57

I believe they were actually Alexander bodies, Roger, sub contracted and built to Leyland design, as the latter were at that time overwhelmed by work.
I think Samelsbury Engineering also built a few bodies to Leyland design and possibly parts, for the same reason.

Mr Anon

12/11/18 – 07:58

This is recorded by the P.S.V. Circle as being withdrawn by Ribble in 1956 and passing to:-
Smith, Reading 12/56
Liss & District, Bordon 10/58
Trebilock (Finchley Coaches), London N.12 10/59
Dickson, Stoke Mandeville 1/61
last licenced 4/61 and to Ronsway, Hemel Hempstead in 1961, for scrap

I have just checked the old London telephone exchange names and HILlside covered North Finchley tying in nicely with the Trebilcock dates.

John Kaye

12/11/18 – 08:00

I notice that every one of the near side upper deck windows within the five bays has a half drop ventilator fitted. It appears, from photographs of similar Ribble buses I’ve looked at, that the corresponding windows on the off side had no ventilators fitted at all. It seems rather an unusual arrangement, was this Ribble’s normal specification for lowbridge vehicles?

Chris Barker

12/11/18 – 16:07

The nearside half drop would be accessible from the seats, whilst the offside would only be accessible from the sunken aisle so the positioning of the opening windows makes sense.

Phil Blinkhorn

12/11/18 – 16:08

Wow I thought these Blackburn Corporation buses had been scrapped. Glad to know they are now vintage buses. My school was on the East Park side of Blackburn and I rode on these to and from school.
They were ancient and noisy to travel in. I enjoyed my journeys. It started a life long interest in buses and travelling on them.
For me these buses bring back my childhood memories of living in Blackburn.
Wonderful bus journeys.

William Ferguson

12/11/18 – 16:10

Thanks, everyone, for the extra information. The Ribble fleet number for this bus was 2323. Alexander did build ‘identikit’ bodies for Leyland, but, in his book on the TD series Titan in the series "The Best of British Buses", Alan Townsin says that these were Leyland bodies, rather than Alexander built clones. Confirmation one way or the other would be welcome.
John, your comprehensive history of this vehicle does confirm that it must have belonged to Finchley Coaches when photographed, which reassures me considerably in my advancing years – I cannot recall ever visiting the Birmingham area in the early 1960s. I am surprised that the less than pristine state of the bus as depicted in the photo still enabled it to work for a further year or so. Chris, I think that a half drop ventilator on the upper deck offside can just be detected through the front upper deck window. It is to the credit of the integrity of the Leyland body design that, after a life of some twenty years. there is no hint of any sag in the waist rail.

Roger Cox

12/11/18 – 16:11

Mr. Anon, There is no record of these on the Alexander records. I think you are confusing things with the early post-war situation which was discussed a year ago on the SCT61 site, and the chassis involved were Leyland PD1 and PD1A types in 1946/7.

John Kaye

13/11/18 – 05:35

Regarding location I think this was at the Austin works at Longbridge. Many of these buses collected workers from the Midlands and were driven by an operative also PSV qualified.

Nigel Edwards

14/11/18 – 07:11

Just a thought re Roger Cox’s possible view of offside half drop windows and the gangway, Is the visible line not more likely to be a handrail fixed to the window pillars?

Stan Zapiec

14/11/18 – 07:12

John: I always thought that Leyland did not, in principle, rebody older chassis. The only exception to that rule being the examples they rebodied for Plymouth Corporation. But, I must be incorrect in that assumption.

Mr Anon

15/11/18 – 07:40

Mr. Anon, I don’t follow your comment on Leyland not in principle rebodying vehicles, in relation to the Ribble vehicle. RN 8979 was new in 1940 with a 1940 Leyland body and so rebodying does not come into the equation.

John Kaye

16/11/18 – 06:59

One might similarly not follow the comment about Blackburn Corporation, but I suppose that, from a passenger’s perspective, there wouldn’t be such a great difference between the above and Blackburn’s PD1s/PD1As, of which Blackburn had rather a lot.

David Call

17/11/18 – 07:42

…although a PD1 and a TD7 would sound rather different in the definitive second and third gear music.

Stephen Ford

17/11/18 – 07:45

Yes John, that is my mistake, at first glance the bus looks like one of Ribble’s pre war Leyland TDs, rebodied after WW2. Some were also rebodied by ECW. But on closer inspection the body fitted to RN8979 is the original 1940 Leyland body. The height of the driver’s door side window, visible through the windscreen, is a give away.
I still maintain that Leyland did not in principle rebody existing chassis, even of their own manufacture, except for the two pre war Titans rebodied with Farrington type bodies for Plymoth. I believe Donald Stoke’s father was GM at Plymouth at the time, which may have influenced their decision.

Mr Anon

20/11/18 – 15:09

Ledgards bought two of the early metal framed Leyland bodies in 1934. These caused no end of trouble and Sam being Sam prevailed upon Leyland to rebody them in 1938.

Chris Hough

22/12/18 – 12:21

Chris, Sam was not the only disgruntled operator to trouble Mr Spurrier’s door. On one day he received a delegation, Messrs Sword, Dick and Alexander..

Stephen Allcroft

09/04/21 – 06:36

Further to Mr Anon (17/11/18), a total of eight Plymouth Leyland TD5c, originally Weymann-bodied, were rebodied postwar by Leyland. Two were the last of the 1938 batch (213/4: ADR 813/4), of which 213 became 141 after rebodying. The other six were presumably from the 1939 batch (215-39: BDR 252-76), but there is no acknowledgement on BLOTW of this. 232 (BDR 269) became 143 after rebodying. 213 and 232 later served with Theobald’s of Long Melford.

David Frank

Bournemouth Corporation – Leyland Titan TD5 – FEL 214 – 14

Bournemouth Corporation - Leyland Titan TD5 - FEL 214 - 14
Copyright Ray Soper

Bournemouth Corporation
1939
Leyland Titan TD5
Weymann FO58R

This shot is from the Ray Soper -Gallery’ contribution A Trolleybus tour in Bournemouth click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

05/03/12 – 17:22

FEL 214 was immortalised in the 1966 Norman Wisdom film "Press for Time", probably the best part. Is it still in existence?

Nigel Richards

17/07/13 – 06:57

This scene would be unrepeatable today. The Pier Approach roads have gone; there is a flyover right behind where the bus is standing and the road where the bus stop was is now part of a general amusement area. The Pavilion which is visible behind the bus is still extant, but somewhat changed in appearance.
I never travelled on these old open-toppers but I do remember them. They were probably hard work for the drivers as route 12 went up and down quite a few steep hills as it ran up from sea level at Alum Chine, then down to both piers before finishing at Hengistbury Head.

Grahame Arnold

18/07/13 – 07:41

Was this the bus that ended up in the sea in the climax to a ‘chase sequence’ in the film ‘Press for Time’. I haven’t seen the film but I do recall seeing a still of an ex Bournemouth TD5 open topper running into the sea in a book.

Michael Elliott

18/07/13 – 10:08

You’re quite right, Michael E. Here’s the link to the film – the bus scene starts at 0:24:00 (mins). SEE: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFBgHiKX0Vc

Chris Hebbron

18/07/13 – 16:23

I think that the movie sequences in Press for Time were filmed in and around Teignmouth, Devon.
Mind you, I could have done without the Russian dubbing!
Good fun, all the same.

Having watched the film sequence again, there’s a bit of inconsistency. See if you can spot it. For most of the chase, the bus is on route 22, but briefly, in mid-chase, we see it operating a route 23 ! I can’t imagine why!

Petras409

19/07/13 – 08:49

To add credence to the Teignmouth/Tinmouth location, the first sighting of the TD5 also indicates the rear of an Atlantean in the background, sporting very much what looks like Devon General livery!

Chris Hebbron

Turners of Chorley – Leland Titan TD5 – RN 8642

Turners of Chorley Leland Titan TD5

Turners of Chorley
1939
Leland Titan TD5 (1939) 
Alexander (1949) L27/26R

I went on a bus club trip on this bus to visit the bus depot in Leyland Lancashire of John Fishwick & Sons. Fishwicks were and still are a large independent operator with services in the Leyland, Chorley and Preston area.
This bus was ex Ribble and finding precise information is not easy but what I did find was that a Ribble TD5 registration RN 8622 is preserved and owned by the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Trust. There is only a difference of 20 in the registration and having scrutinised photos of them both I can fairly safely say that they are both from the same batch of vehicles. It would appear that they originally had Burlingham bodies, but during the war years maintenance was concentrated on mechanical servicing rather than the bodywork so by 1949 they had to be rebodied by Alexander. Ribble actually rebodied 148 TD4s and 5s and 81 single deck TSs and whilst at it any petrol engine vehicle was converted to an oil-engine.
The TD5 of Ribble Vehicle Preservation Trust can be seen here.

Tynemouth and District – Leyland Titan TD5 – FT 4498 – 98

Tynemouth and District - Leyland Titan TD5 - FT 4498 - 98
Copyright Unknown

Tynemouth and District
1938
Leyland Titan TD5
Weymann H??F

More from my youth. 98 was one of eight 1938 forward entrance Weymann bodied Leyland TD5’s delivered to the Northern General subsidiary of Tynemouth and District. They were FT 4496/4503 numbers 96/103. About 1950 in common with many pre war vehicles they were given a new lease of life and re bodied.

Tynemouth and District - Leyland Titan TD5 - FT 4500
Copyright Unknown

100 is seen here with its second body, and you could be forgiven for asking how ECW bodies came to be in a BET fleet? Well in fact they’re Northern Coachbuilders H30/26R. I’m aware of one example of the type that’s still around, NVK 341 is a beautifully restored 1950 Newcastle Corporation AEC Regent 111 and has been featured on this site. I don’t know if the doors on the Weymann’s were powered or manual and almost certainly they would not have been equipped with heaters, but they seem to have been well ahead of their time. Does anyone know of any survivors?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

18/12/12 – 16:35

I am not familiar with Northern General, but the forward entrance Weymann body looks very much like the ones mounted on AEC Regent chassis for Midland General in the late 30s. I can remember travelling on one of these about 1953 on the C5 Alfreton to Nottingham route. I don’t think the sliding doors were powered. Trent also had some similar ones, but these were rebodied with conventional rear entrance Willowbrook bodies (lowbridge from memory) around 1950 I think. It’s remarkable to that immediately before WW2 Nottingham had three different operators with forward entrance double deckers – since Barton also had quite a lot of Leylands, some of them rebodies of older vehicles bought second hand. These were not Weymanns however.

Stephen Ford

19/12/12 – 07:32

I’m very pleased you mentioned those Stephen because one thing I noticed was that although the Trent and Midland General Regents both dated from 1937 and both were bodied by Weymann, they were somewhat different. The MGO bodies were basically same as the Tynemouth example above. The Trent examples had an odd, longer length second window bay which resulted in a much shorter rearmost side window on both decks. Also, the bulkhead under the canopy had a single window on the MGO vehicles whereas on the Trent ones, there were twin windows. So, it would seem that Weymann had more than one front entrance double deck design in production at the same time. It makes you wonder why certain operators preferred such subtle differences.

Chris Barker

19/12/12 – 07:32

Some very nice views there, Ronnie!

Pete Davies

19/12/12 – 08:45

Weymann were renown for their metal framed bodywork and classic designs. Pre-war, there were three separate products – Flexible, Coachbuilt and Metal. Coachbuilt approximated to the composite framework used by Charles H Roe up to 1968. The featured body is a composite body. Mansfield District/Midland General had both composite and metal bodies in the pre-war period.

David Oldfield

19/12/12 – 13:39

The first photograph – that’s an original, right ?

After classic coaches, the second love of my life is the amber nectar….I’m not a historian, but genuinely amazed that Carlsberg existed all those years ago and, even more amazement, they hoped to sell it in the North East in competition with Newcastle Brown !!

Stuart C

20/12/12 – 08:05

Stuart, according to the encyclopaedia website, that brewing company was founded in 1847, and now controls a fair number of brands. The list might make you weep into your drink but includes Tetley and Scottish & Newcastle . . .

Pete Davies

20/12/12 – 09:39

An equally surprising ‘brewing’ fact is that lager, per se, was so popular in an era when most folk seemed to drink ale, porter or mild and bitter. I’ve seen pre- 1914 adverts on trams for Tuborg lager and one, dated 1908, for ‘Alsopp’s British Lager’ To me, lager seemed to take off in the late 1950’s.

Chris Hebbron

20/12/12 – 09:43

Presumably you stuck your Carlsberg on a boat and just headed west. Do you notice that they were anxious to explain that Lager (or Pilsner if you not sure what to call the stuff although it was always a long way from Pilsn) was not just a cold summer drink…? They succeeded!

Joe

21/12/12 – 07:27

Unusual to see a bus that looked so good in both incarnations, though for sheer character I go for the front-entrance original. The nice lining-out and dignified fleet name are a fine finishing touch. Did Northern Coachbuilders build these ECW lookalikes on licence, or to order, or simply as the sincerest form of flattery? Their own designs always look very good to my eye as well.

Ian Thompson

21/12/12 – 10:40

Ian. An ECW man was enticed to NCB just before NCB’s major shareholder died and they were landed with crippling death duties which did for the company. This body is closer to ECW’s original than the Newcastle Regent III – which has slightly odd (uneven) bay spacing.

David Oldfield

22/12/12 – 14:55

I can remember seeing these front entrance double deckers on the Blyth – North Shields Ferry service 7 as a small boy around 1949-50 an once did a return trip on one accompanied by my aunt. These were very different to the usual AEC Regents allocated to this route.

Gerald Walker

07/11/14 – 06:19

I have enjoyed looking at the old photos I worked at Percy Main from 1963 until 1969 but I can not remember Ronnie Hoye but you sure know your buses.

Ray 33323

07/11/14 – 15:39

Ray, do you have a Brother called Brian, who was a fitter at Percy Main?

Ronnie Hoye

14/10/20 – 07:04

Regarding Ronnie Hoye’s observation on the re-bodying of Leyland TD5’s, I think he is wrong on this occasion. According to lthlibrary.org.uk they were given ECW bodies well before NCB came out with the new 8ft wide design in 1949/50. Below is the text pasted from the LTHL site.

"1938 Leyland TD5 No. 96 (FT4496) with original Weymann 55-seat forward entrance bodywork. It was re-bodied in 1948 by ECW with a 53-seat rear entrance body. (LTHL collection)."

Ray Jackson

16/10/20 – 06:10

Ray, I believe you are correct, In the Venture book about Northern Coachbuilders there is a photograph of one of these rebodies, that of FT 4500, complete with ECW makers label in the destination box. The photo is included to afford a comparison between the two products, ECW and NCB but it provides conclusive proof that the Tynemouth AECs were indeed bodied by ECW.

Chris Barker

17/10/20 – 06:19

That these vehicles were rebodied by ECW is confirmed by PSV Circle publications, which give the body numbers as ECW Series 2 nos. 2973-2980 (not in order) with 2973-6 being new in 10/48 and 2977-80 new in 12/48. However, there seems to be a doubt as to their seating. Fleet History PA6, which covers Tynemouth and District gives the seating split as L27/26R, although that is clearly wrong, as these were highbridge bodies, while Body List B1205 states that they were H30/26R, which was standard for this style of body. As the body list is a much more recent publication, it is, perhaps, more likely to be correct.

John Gibson

17/10/20 – 06:23

Before giving the wrong answer, Ronnie invited the question as to what ECW bodies were doing in a BET fleet, and that still stands. The answer is that the rebodying was completed by the end of 1948, and therefore would have been ordered long before ECW sales were restricted. Other non-Tilling operators for whom ECW were building at the time were Middlesbrough Corporation, Birch Bros and the Red & White group.

Peter Williamson

19/10/20 – 06:10

51-37

Following up Peter Williamson’s comment about ECW bodies supplied to non-Tilling companies, a quick trawl of "Bus lists on the Web" also shows substantial numbers of rebodying work on TD chassis for East Kent and Ribble, while Southdown took a batch of 25 PS1s with C31F bodywork, and Western Welsh took 62 PS1 with B35R bodywork, all in 1947. 4 similar buses went to Isle of Man Road Services in 1948. Southdown 1249 is seen at Bognor Depot in 1972 after conversion to a mobile left luggage office; IOMRS 57 in withdrawn condition at Ramsey in 1968.

Alan Murray-Rust

20/10/20 – 06:28

Not forgetting the batch of ECW bodied Leyland PD1s delivered to North Western in 1948 which were, in effect, lowbridge versions of the Tynemouth re-bodies, seen above.

Chris Barker

27/10/20 – 05:46

North Western was a rather different case, having been a Tilling company until 1942 and having not yet been forced to change its vehicle policy. Like some other Tilling companies, at that stage it only bought PD1s because Bristol could not build enough Ks to meet the demand.

Peter Williamson

29/10/20 – 06:15

A further comment on these rebodies, I recall them being used on service 5 between Newcastle and Whitley Bay (Cemetery). Tynemouth seemed to allocate batches of vehicles to specific routes. Another batch of vehicles were AEC Regents with NCB bodies of the earlier pre-ECW look-a-like design, these being used on service 7 between North Shields Ferry and Blyth, while my earliest memory of service 4 (Whitley Bay to Gateshead) was of the Pickering bodied Guys. That route, which was later renumbered 1 seemed to be allocated batches of new vehicles displacing earlier vehicles to other routes. I have a vague recollection that the1955 batch of Weymann Orion bodied Guys were initially used on the 1/4 before ending up on the 5 replacing the TD5s, not as far as I was concerned a change for the better.

John Gibson

01/11/20 – 06:03

John, the Weymann Orion bodied GUY Arabs (two batches of them) were sturdy and robust, typical of GUY’s.
That said, the bodies were rubbish, and soon gained the nickname of Rattletraps.

Ronnie Hoye

Plymouth City Transport – Leyland Titan – ADR 813 – 141

Plymouth City Transport - Leyland Titan - ADR 813 - 141

Plymouth City Transport
1938
Leyland Titan TD5c
Leyland L53R

The chassis of ADR 813 was new to Plymouth City Transport in 1938, but it received its present Leyland L53R body in 1953. As all I have read about Leyland’s body manufacturing facilities says they finished in 1953, this must, surely, have been one of their last. The chassis is noted in the PSVC listing for 2012 as being a Leyland Titan TD5c, which was probably very useful on Plymouth’s hills! We see it at Winkleigh on 6 October 1996.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

07/07/16 – 09:15

Leyland ceased body production in December 1954. The last coach body was built for Wilkinson of Sedgefield, the last bus bodies were on a batch of PD2s for Trent.

Phil Blinkhorn

07/07/16 – 09:15

This very bus appears in the (now) very ancient book, "Building Britain’s Buses", in which some school boys are given a guided tour of the Leyland works. Ian Allan published it, but there is no publication date. However it is clear from the photos and text that Leyland’s body building plant was operative at the time of writing this book. The caption to the photo, which shows ADR 813 in the Customer Inspection Department, gives no indication that the bus is a re-body. Midland Red LD8’s are in the background. Because of that caption, it was many years before I understood that this was a re-body rather than an all-new bus. It must have been quite un-nerving to see a PD2 look-alike approaching, only to find pure Leyland TD5 sounds as it pulled away! As even the picture in this view is 20 years old, I do hope that this bus still survives.

Michael Hampton

07/07/16 – 16:13

Thank you, Phil and Michael, for your comments. I can’t speak in respect of recent developments, but this bus was alive and well last time I visited Winkleigh, in 2012.

Pete Davies

07/07/16 – 16:13

What a wonderful combination, but are we sure that its a TD5c as the normal Autovac is usually replaced by a much deeper device on torque converter chassis. I may well be wrong in always having assumed that this was universally the case.

Chris Youhill

07/07/16 – 16:14

A further thought. I wonder if the radiator shell was not replaced as part of the rebodying contract because Leyland didn’t want a TD5 totally in PD2 clothing.

Phil Blinkhorn

08/07/16 – 06:32

Many operators removed the torque convertors from their Leyland Titans c.1945-47, replacing them with standard Leyland gear boxes for the TD series. If Plymouth did this, perhaps that would account for the replacement of the deeper autovac by a standard size? I don’t have any lists for Plymouth, so this is just a guess. But Southdown and Portsmouth along with others took this option – possibly Leyland put on a "special offer" to cover this change in the early post-war period.

Michael Hampton

08/07/16 – 06:33

In contrast to Pete’s comment about the hill climbing usefulness of the TD5c, I was always under the impression the torque-converter fitted Leylands were very poor on hills. Many operators removed them and fitted a conventional crash gearbox and that could be the case here. The ‘c’ suffix was not always removed from fleet listings when this occurred. I remember riding on the Lytham St Annes Leyland Lion which was still torque-converter fitted at a Heart of the Pennines Rally at Halifax several years ago. The driver insisted on an alternative ‘low level’ route to the mountainous climbs this event always featured as he knew it wouldn’t make it!

Philip Halstead

08/07/16 – 06:33

Chris, presumably by the time of the rebodying the torque converter had been replaced by a conventional transmission. The deeper Autovac was in fact a dual unit containing the hydraulic converter fluid as well as fuel header tank and, after conversion, would have been replaced by a conventional Autovac.

Phil Blinkhorn

08/07/16 – 06:34

I’ve seen a few mentions on this site of the SCT61 website. A look on there shows that, while ADR 813 WAS a TD5C, the rebodying included replacing the gearbox with a conventional one, so I suppose ordinary TD would be the correct caption now.

Pete Davies

08/07/16 – 07:46

I believe the convention is for the chassis designation to remain as built with a note regarding modifications, for one thing the chassis plate would almost certainly retain the original designation. An example of this would be Halifax’s Daimlers which were fitted with Leyland engines, which remained as CVG6 with Leyland engines and not CVL6, which would be an enthusiasts’ designation as such a model didn’t (to my knowledge anyway) exist.

David Beilby

08/07/16 – 09:06

Thanks everyone for clarifying the torque converter query, and for telling me something I certainly didn’t know – that the large tank also included a normal Autovac – I believe the rather intriguing maker’s name of the converters was "Smiths-Lysholm."

Chris Youhill

08/07/16 – 17:13

In the early 1930s Leyland was looking to ease the lot of driving buses in what was then considered heavy traffic. Up until 1932 all its chassis featured a sliding mesh gearbox/friction clutch transmission but Daimler had introduced its preselector system and transport departments were looking to retrain tram drivers as bus drivers so something different was required.
A semi automatic torque converter which had been patented by Alf Lysholm under the manufacturing name of Lysholm-Smith was experimented with in 1932. Dr Haworth, Leyland’s Chief Engineer adopted the principle and developed it so that, at the 1934 Commercial Motor Show, the Tiger, Titan, Titanic and Lion chassis were offered with automatic transmission as an option, the first time any production bus chassis had been offered with the option anywhere in the world. The system offered a single lever with direct, converter and reverse drives plus neutral.
The vehicles were badged as "Leyland Gearless Bus". The company made its own converters but acknowledged Alf Lysholm’s base patent in its own patents.
The gearless chassis sold well and an interesting experiment took place in 1934 when London Transport sent the chassis of STL221, a standard AEC Regent, to Leyland to be fitted with the system. After several days in Lancashire it returned to London, was subsequently bodied and ran with the torque converter until August 1937. The comments from Southall have either been lost to or censored from the annals of history!

Phil Blinkhorn

08/07/16 – 17:14

ADR 813 certainly still exists. It was part of the late Colin Shears’ West of England Transport Collection, so was resident at Winkleigh. ADL is still listed on the collection’s fleet list.
The usual open day at Winkleigh in October is taking a rest this year, so it won’t be until October 2017 that we will be able to see this old girl again for real.

Petras409

09/07/16 – 06:36

Phil, your little side-issue concerning LT’s STL221 being fitted with a torque-converter between 1934 and August 1937, as ever, shows LT’s illogicality at times! At about the time the decision was being taken to remove STL221’s converter, LT was taking delivery of 100 Leyland TD4’s with Leyland copycat STL bodies, the last 10 of which were fitted with torque-converters! Like STL221, they were soon discarded in favour of crash gearboxes, in 1939, to match the other 90 of the class. To add to this illogicality, if these STD’s were STL clones, why were they not all fitted with pre-selective gearboxes?

Chris Hebbron

09/07/16 – 10:37

All very interesting and valid points indeed Chris H.
Turning now to the immediate postwar period, where supply problems were definitely a feature, I’ve no doubt that the sudden arrival of hired in Tilling Group Bristols and the glorious batch of all Leyland PD1s caused much discontent amongst the drivers involved – after all I doubt if many of them were admiring enthusiasts like me !! I absolutely worshipped the STDs for their unexpected individuality in London. A large number where allocated to Victoria Gillingham Street (GM) and they appeared frequently on the long and arduous 137 route from Highgate to Crystal Palace via Streatham. As a youngster, holidaying in the latter, I was a frequent visitor to the free swings and roundabouts in Norwood Park, which involved stopping the PD1 on the steep of Central Hill – even at that tender age I had a conscience about stopping the driver at such an awkward spot. Never in my wildest dreams then did I imagine that I would one day pass my PSV test on an identical glorious PD1 in Leeds. Oh, why can’t we magically turn the clock back ??

Chris Youhill

09/07/16 – 16:32

Whilst strictly not within the scope of this thread, the mention of Lysholm Smith reminded me that the first Derby Lightweight DMUs of 1954 featured this transmission. To quote from Derby Lightweight DMUs by Evan Green-Hughes, the following may be of interest.
"The West Riding sets were made up of two cars, both of which were powered in view of the heavily graded nature of the territory in which they were to work. The well-established Leyland L600 125hp horizontally mounted six cylinder engine, as used in many buses and trucks, was specified and two were fitted to each coach. Riddles had chosen to fit the Leyland Lysholm Smith torque converter transmission which had been used in an earlier LMS three-car experimental unit. This had a double-acting clutch that either connected the engine output to the torque converter pump or directly to the output shaft and was bolted directly to the engine. The clutch was controlled by the driver who could select one of four positions,off, neutral, converter drive and direct drive.Converter drive was used for pulling away or hill climbing, whilst direct drive would be used when going downhill or when travelling along easy graded sections at speed. However, by the time the units were completed, the Lysholm Smith transmission system was already obsolete and the buses for which it was originally designed were being equipped with pre-selector transmission"

John Darwent

09/07/16 – 17:15

Chris, to answer your question re the lack of preselector gearboxes on the STD class, the STL class through its many variations generally had crash gearboxes though a number had Daimler preselector boxes. AEC and Daimler had formed ADC for a short period in the mid/late 1920s and presumably relations were such that AEC could source from Daimler. Leyland was very much its own man and presumably either would not or could not deal with Daimler and a crash box would not have been seen as disadvantageous at the time.

Phil Blinkhorn

Charlton-on-Otmoor Services – Leyland TD – FKO 223 – 293

Charlton-on-Otmoor Services - Leyland TD - FKO 223 - 293

Charlton-on-Otmoor Services
1939
Leyland TD5
Weymann H28/26R

Not one of my best pictures, I fear, but the Comet S camera did not cope well with action shots. Seen on its way out of Oxford in 1960 is FKO 223, a Leyland TD5 with Weymann H28/26R bodywork. This bus was delivered in 1939 to Chatham & District where it operated as No. 293 until 1942 when it then passed to parent company Maidstone & District as DH365. It was bought by Charlton-on-Otmoor Services in November 1955. It is thought that this bus still remains in existence, but information about its present status is scanty.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

18/11/19 – 10:41

What a beauty! Had sadly left Charlton-on-Otmoor services by the time I came to Oxford in 1971. Intrigued to hear that it may have survived!

Ian Thompson

23/11/19 – 06:58

What a handsome bus! How like an AEC were those TDS of the period – two fine British champions of the psv world – worldwide….
I expect we’ve all noticed how nut-rings set off the front wheels, and beautify the overall image. Manufacturers which eschewed them produced utility- looking buses and coaches – just for the sake of those trims. Guy springs to mind, and posh buses with the nut-rings removed in service as contractors site transport, looked truly down-at-heel!
Who can tell me why London transport removed thousands of rear-wheel spats in the 50’s? Those full discs looked very sleek. Few other operators employed them – why?

Victor Brumby

23/11/19 – 13:46

My 2006 copy of Preserved Buses shows FKO 223 as owned by Gibbons, Maidstone. It may well have moved on now of course but hopefully still about in one piece.

John Darwent

23/11/19 – 13:47

Those rear wheel discs caused brakes to overheat. Burys PD3s them for a very short time when new but they were very quickly binned. Some of Manchesters Fleetlines had them too and, again, they were quickly discarded. I personally didn’t like them much.

No name given,      yet

24/11/19 – 15:08

The Gibbons Brothers still own it but have partially stripped it for components. They are asking too much money for it to be a worthwhile restoration exercise unless you have a real passion for M&D.

Roger Burdett

29/11/19 – 05:54

I think that bus bodies, in the 1938-39 period, finally reached a classic shape, although I never really liked the fluting at the bottom of Weymann’s bodies. I travelled on the Leyland TD4 STL-copy STD’s of London Transport and they looked smart. Their fruity roar and crash gearbox slow changes gave a young lad goose pimples…..until girls overtook my bus passion!

Chris Hebbron

29/11/19 – 10:10

In regard to previous comments about nut guard rings and rear wheel discs, firstly London Transport removed the rear wheel discs across the fleet in the 1970s, not the 1950s. Manchester ordered discs for all its double deck fleet, except the first batch of Atlanteans, until 1964. The discs don’t cause brake overheating. Manchester in particular had a thing about overheating brakes and regularly cut back front mudguards yet ordered the discs. The reason many fleets didn’t use them and why they were often discarded, in Manchester’s case unofficially and to the ire of authority, was the same reason as the wholesale removal in London – efficiency. They had to be removed every time tyre pressures needed checking, every wheel change and every time wheel nut tightness needed to be checked. On large fleets this added considerable time to maintenance and when accountants costed this and cost won out over appearance, they were officially removed – something Manchester depot foreman had been doing for years, reporting them lost in service.
Nut guard rings were brought in to do exactly what their name implies – to stop drivers using the wheel nuts as steps into the cab. Leyland designed a ring with holes through which nuts could be tightened but only a minority of their chassis were ordered with these. Whilst many operators discarded the rings for the same reason as they discarded or didn’t order discs, others decided the extra effort in maintenance was worth it to protect the wheel nuts.

Phil Blinkhorn

06/01/20 – 11:11

Regarding previous incorrect comments concerning FKO 223. My brother Chris and I have owned this handsome classic since 1993 (Surely Weymann at it’s best!)
We’ve never actually offered the vehicle for sale.
It’s true the major components are removed but have been/are being completely reconditioned. This has cost many pounds so far as parts have had to be re-made and spares hard to source. We’ve restored many other buses and do fund 99% of work ourselves, not having luxury of a dedicated workforce.
Due to health issues we would consider passing this fine bus on, but only to someone with the wherewithal, dedication and determination to complete the project to a top class standard.
The bus still wears its ‘as withdrawn’ Charlton on Utmoor livery.

Rob Gibbons

10/01/20 – 11:52

Wonderful to hear that FKO 223 is safe. Restoration can be a very long-term business, often entailing periods where to the outside world nothing seems to be happening. Very glad too to hear that she still wears Charlton-on-Otmoor livery.

Ian Thompson

Portsmouth Corporation – Leyland TD4 – RV 9404 – 150

Portsmouth Corporation - Leyland TD4 - RV 9404 - 150
Copyright A M Lambert

Portsmouth Corporation
1937
Leyland Titan TD4
Cravens H26/24R

Having dabbled with Leyland TD1 & 2’s, Crossley Condors, an AEC Regent and some TSM’s, with bodies spread amongst Short, Park Royal, Leyland and English Electric, CPPTD settled on a large order for 30 Leyland TD4’s with Cravens’ bodies, to the same pattern as its trolleybuses, both types being delivered in two tranches during 1936/37.
There were subtle differences between bus/trolleybus bodies, notably the upstairs bus front windows lacking a curve at the bottom corners. Also, the last five (156-60), as can be seen from the photo, had different headlamps, plus fluting on the front nearside wing.
The buses had long lives, with engineering staff rebuilding bodies of some of them around 1950 and the last going in 1960! Both in the photo, with rebuilt bodies, lasted from 1937 to 1958. One was destroyed in 1941 by enemy action.

insert

It’s the side-issues which often intrigue in bus photos and this one’s no exception. To our left of 158, peeps out part of a lorry. This was 105/RV2000, a 1932 Crossley Condor/EE double-decker, which was a CPPTD conversion to a waste disposal lorry after revenue-service withdrawal in 1948.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

03/06/12 – 19:41

Thanks Chris for another fine picture of Portsmouth Corporation pre-war Leyland TD4s. These were the days when one could be proud of your locally owned bus services which met the needs of community. The Transport Acts from 1968 onwards towards privatisation in the eighties have all produced changes, many for the worse. Happily this website draws the line at 1970 but my favourites are buses and trolleybuses of the 1930 to 1950 period.

Richard Fieldhouse

04/06/12 – 11:35

Oh how I agree with Richard about this superb posting from Chris!
Each municipality was so different, and they each exuded their own character and "flavour", as there was no central control from outside the town or city.
There was, in the municipal fleet, the opportunity to express some civic pride, with individual liveries, crests, coats of arms, and well (generally) maintained fleets.
Sadly, those days of pride , with some social discipline connected to it, have largely disappeared.
These 2 Titans could not be anywhere but Portsmouth, a fleet which took pride in its appearance. There were many others, but it is this individuality which is at the root of my enthusiasm, and hence, like Richard, it declines rapidly after 1950.
Not to say that other transport groupings were of no interest, as company and independent fleets also had character, but this was displayed in a different way.
Nostalgic and foolish old person that I am!

John Whitaker

04/06/12 – 17:11

You’re not wrong, Richard, about Transport acts. Before deregulation buses were classified as Public Service Vehicles, where as now they are Passenger Carrying Vehicles, no mention of ‘Passengers or Service’ I think that just about sums it up

Ronnie Hoye

05/06/12 – 08:28

The point John Whitaker makes about the old municipalities and their civic pride is all too true as control originated with in a short distance of where operations took place, by the same token criticisms and complaints could also be dealt with equally rapidly.
I worked both as conductor and driver for Eastbourne Corporation from 1961 to 1969 which at that time had a fleet of about 50 buses, a small fleet but beautifully maintained and turned out at all times. The coach painting was carried out solely by brush when repaints were due, no spray equipment was owned at that time, all this was done by two very skilled men namely Bill Hollobone and Reg Metcalfe. Reg even painted every advert panel by hand truly a work of art and a source of great pride, and a joy to watch in action.
Things definitely ain’t what they used to be, nostalgia rules OK.

Diesel Dave

06/06/12 – 09:50

You’re both so right, folks, about the special aspects of municipal fleets. CPPTD also had some hand-painted adverts, usually for local concerns. And the management had a fair degree of autonomy as well: it tends to be forgotten that these were publicly-owned ‘proper’ businesses and other employees of the councils, including councillors, tended to leave them alone, as long as they were, at least, self-supporting.
When I worked for GPO Telephones, we were always conscious that we were the only government-run business, but here, we were always constrained by government tight-fistedness, never giving us enough money to get rid of waiting lists/have the latest technology for a world-beating telephone service (until privatisation, that is). But that’s another story!

Chris Hebbron

Portsmouth Corporation – Leyland Titan – RV 6358/67 – 5/7

Portsmouth Corporation - Leyland Titan - RV 6358/67 - 5/7

Portsmouth Corporation - Leyland Titan - RV 6358/67 - 5/7

Portsmouth Corporation
1935
Leyland Titan TD4
English Electric O26/24R

Here are two of the Portsmouth Corporation venerable TD4 open top buses. When delivered in 1935, this batch had English Electric bodies of H26/24 configuration, but four of these were rebuilt as O26/24R in 1953. No.5, RV 6358, formerly No.115, and No.7, RV 6367, previously No.124, are seen on 26th June 1967 at Southsea seafront. These sturdy performers were ultimately withdrawn in 1971 and 1972 respectively.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

23/07/13 – 06:44

Nearly all of Portsmouth’s 46 TD4s were quite long-lasting vehicles, many going on for 18-20 years. The four with EEC bodies converted to open-top were even more long-lived, going on to 1971/72 – a massive 35 years! I believe all four are still extant in preservation. This includes one which has had a top cover to more or less the original design fitted, although the upward sweep of the open top front has been retained. These four conversions replaced Leyland Cheetah single deckers on this route – a photo of one at the end of it’s life is also on this site. The Southdown Enthusiasts’ Club recently produced an excellent booklet on the history of Portsmouth’s sea front services, and the vehicles used. In 1956, a batch of MCCW Orion bodied PD2s replaced the remaining covered top versions of the EEC bodied TD4s. Poetically, six of these PD2/Orions were converted to open top to replace the EEC TD4s shown here! Thanks for also showing them in the traditional red (crimson) and white livery. I was never a fan of their final style of nearly all-over white with a red band or two. Interestingly, the PD2 conversions were painted white with red stripes immediately on conversion. Those preserved have been re-painted in traditional crimson and white – not strictly authentic, but their owners must agree that it’s much better-looking! Others on this site may like their Gardner and AEC engine sounds, but for me a Leyland TD4 or a PD2 is the best score in the memories of youth.

Michael Hampton

24/07/13 – 11:00

A couple of very evocative photos, with the added fact that little has changed in the second location (Clarence Pier, Southsea)and a lot in the first (by Southsea Castle). It was a pleasure to travel on these venerable public servants and it’s good to know that they’ve all survived. I also loved the roar of these indirect injection diesel engines (sounding at their most bizarre when fitted to the Crossley DD42/7’s). My wife and I would often pick up one of these by the seafront at the Marine barracks and go the Hayling Ferry and watch the activity there for an hour or so. I don’t believe there’s a seafront service any more. although I believe that a company tried one last year, obviously without success.

Chris Hebbron

24/07/13 – 14:42

Chris, the 8.6 litre Leyland oil engine was a very smooth running direct injection design, giving 94 bhp at 1900 rpm, making it the fastest revving direct injection unit then available. On my last visit to the Portsmouth/Gosport area about five years ago, I was pleased to see the seafront gardens much as I remembered them from childhood, a time when Portsmouth City still showed the terrible scars of wartime bombing. I am sorry to learn that no seafront service now operates. It was always a magical experience as a child to hear the glorious sound of these buses when pulling away, though back then (1949 to 1952) they still had covered top decks.

Roger Cox

26/07/13 – 06:48

That was a slip of the pen, Roger, but thanks for correcting me.
Not long after going out to work in London, I had a sole experience of a return ride on one of LT’s pre-war STD’s. Leyland TD4’s, with crash gearboxes, they were, nevertheless, good performers, even into Central London. Bodily, they were clever copies of roofbox STL’s to the layman, but to the bus enthusiast, not quite right, internally and externally, producing a surreal ride. Shame one never survived, although there were a couple of failed attempts.

Chris Hebbron

30/07/13 – 12:29

Some engines grunt like an O600, some thud like a 5LW or rumble like a 6LW, some thrash and some clatter, but nothing hums like a Leyland 8.6! For sound, bodywork and livery I’d have one of these Portsmouth TD4s among my Desert Island Dozen. Pity that considerations of fuel economy, clean running and power output have conspired to make the toroidal piston cavity almost universal, because it seems that the smoothness Roger describes results from the flowerpot cavity of the 8.6. For three years after the introduction of this legendary engine AEC continued to struggle with Ricardo-head indirect injection with its cold-starting difficulties.
Does anyone recall the sound of London Transport AEC 8.8-litre engines? I don’t, as I wasn’t there, but Graham Green tells me that they too had flowerpot-cavity pistons, so I imagine they must have hummed like the Leyland 8.6.

Ian Thompson

01/08/13 – 06:34

Something I forgot to ask:
Seaside open-toppers often survived way beyond the average vehicle’s service life. Is that because they were cherished by the operator and given whatever overhauls were necessary for a new CoF even when an accountant would raise an eyebrow, or were the fitness conditions less stringent for buses plying a flat seafront route at 20mph? But a counterexample was prewar Southern Vectis CDL 899, which at over 60 years of age ground doggedly up to the Needles Battery, at about 450ft, several times a day.
Enlightenment welcome!

Ian Thompson

01/08/13 – 11:20

One aspect was that they probably only worked for 4 months a year, so had less hard lives on an annualised basis. I also wonder if there was some affection for these pre-war buses, retained long after the war before conversion, and, in effect, museum pieces. I’m not so sure that post-war open-toppers, in general, have fared so well.

Chris Hebbron

02/08/13 – 10:40

You are of course right Chris, they were only used for 4 months of the year and were stored under dust sheets in the side garage at North End through the Winter. In addition they were not sent out in the rain – as the timetable of the time stated – this service will be augmented or withdrawn depending on demand and the weather.

Pat Jennings

04/08/13 – 06:44

How I agree with Ian on the subject of the pot cavity Leyland oil engine in TS and TD chassis. Originally of 8.1 litres capacity, the engine was derived from Leyland’s contemporary petrol unit and inherited its overhead camshaft design concept. This contributed to the smooth running characteristics, albeit at a slight penalty in longer overhaul procedures. In fact, when later bored out to the familiar size of 8.6 litres, the E102 unit proved to be very reliable, and this apparent maintenance complexity was unimportant in practice. Coupled with the "silent third" gearbox, which had sliding mesh engagement for first and second, but helical constant mesh for third, the TS and TD buses thus equipped were, to my mind, the most musical psvs of all time. The song of one of these pulling away from a stop was a delight upon the ear. My experience of the AEC pot cavity 8.8 litre engines was limited to a very few rides upon the 10T10 Regals from Selsdon when Green Line routes 706 and 707 were introduced on the 26 June 1946. I was then four years old, so such memories are justifiably hazy, and one month later I went to live in the very rural Kent village of Doddington, which, to my joy, was served by Maidstone and District Leyland TS Tigers. Route 28 ran along the valley to Faversham with utility rebodied petrol TS2 buses, and these hissed along almost silently. Route 58 ran to Sittingbourne with TS7 (or possibly TS8) Tigers, and the glorious sound of these wonderful machines ascending Chequers Hill remains in my memory to this day. Perhaps our professional musician contributor, David Oldfield, might wish to offer a view on this subject. Much of our pleasure in old buses derives from their distinctive sounds, a quality that utterly eludes the present day crop of routine rattle boxes. To me, it’s like comparing Monteverdi with Heavy Metal. An interesting additional point arises from this discussion. So effective was the prewar Leyland 8.6 litre oil engine, that, when Crossley and Daimler designed their post war diesels, they copied exactly the 4½ ins bore and 5½ ins stroke of the Leyland, though not the pot piston cavity. Neither engine remotely emulated the success of the Leyland. When I first encountered the new post war PD1/PS1 Leylands, I was sadly disappointed with the sound of the E181 engine. The old Stradivarius sounds had been replaced by the rattle of a Gatling gun.

Roger Cox

04/08/13 – 10:38

Roger. Thanks for the recognition. I regret to say that I was (just) a little young and was badly placed as a kiddie to comment on TD and TS Leylands. Born in 1952 and only let loose on my own about ten years later, my early experience was Sheffield native vehicles. These were all high quality Leylands and AECs – but essentially post-war. Your description of the music of a Leyland 8.6 is only a thing I can imagine and, at the same time, be jealous of. It is certainly true that, although the engine has a big part to play, the gearbox is the critical part of the anatomy for producing the musical sounds of any motor vehicle. For this reason, I found PD2s rather characterless but when my favourite all Leyland PD2/10s (656-667) were on tick-over, they were almost silent – with just a little whistle and chuff. Whether Pre-select or synchromesh, there was far more character from the gearbox of a Regent III/V. Why, though, did the pre-select, the monocontrol and the BR/BUT (DMU) gearbox have delightful music to it which was missing on the Atlantean? Hardened gearwheels enhanced the music of certain manual AECs as did the (standard?) fair of Guy Arabs ( I – IV?). I also remember, as a student, being delighted to ride on a Manchester CCG6 – loved by enthusiasts and loathed by drivers! I’m not sure whether these were the thoughts that Roger was expecting or hoping for. All I can say is that my description of modern buses is "a load of characterless sewing machines". [The nearest thing to character I ever found on anything modern was the Voith boxes on the South Yorkshire AN68s of 1980/81 – but that was over thirty years ago!]

David Oldfield

04/08/13 – 14:46

I’m surprised no-one seems to have mentioned the reassuring clatter of an exhaust brake: perhaps they are post 1970: in which case I’ll still settle for the melodious sound of a CVD6, hunting and then tunefully gurgling away.

Joe

05/08/13 – 08:00

I too discovered the music of prewar (and postwar) Leylands at the age of four, in my case from Manchester TD5s and PD1s respectively. As Roger says, the sound of a TD pulling away from a stop is something very special, and I was so taken with it that (not knowing what they were really called) at that age I gave them a name based on the sound they made. Part of the magic came from clutch judder transmitted into the gearbox. In my experience the rapidity of clutch judder depends on gearing, and the TD must have had a very low second gear to sound the way it did. Manchester, however, did not have the "silent third" gearbox, but specified a special version with cellos and trombones in third gear as well as second (first was never used).

Peter Williamson

RV 6358 Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

05/08/13 – 08:01

Not 100% sure, but I suspect the sound Roger Cox refers to may be like that of the Lincoln TD7 which is to be found on the Old Bus Sounds page. I remember it on many of Barton’s rebuilds around the time of our move to Long Eaton in 1954 – not to mention their ex-Leeds Regents and TDs.

Stephen Ford

06/08/13 – 06:13

The Lincoln TD7 is indeed capable of making all the right noises – I had a nostalgic ride on it last November. I don’t think there’s a second-gear start with clutch judder on this recording though. However, there is a nice burst of second gear from 6:36.

Peter Williamson

Cumberland – Leyland Titan – BRM 596 – 291

Cumberland - Leyland Titan - BRM 596 - 291

Cumberland Motor Services
1936
Leyland Titan TD4
ECW L27/28R (1950)

Before the advent of the Tilling Group era, and the inevitable Bristol/ECW combination for most vehicles, Cumberland had a large fleet of Leyland chassis, and the Royal Tigers seem to have been the last. BRM 596 is a Leyland Titan TD4 with the chassis dating from 1936. The present ECW L55R body dates from 1950. I understand it spent some time with Barton after leaving the north west. We see it on Itchen Bridge, on 6 May 1979, while taking part in the Southampton City Transport Centenary rally.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

15/11/16 – 11:10

Perfect combination! The straight vertical radiator suits the body ideally. Leyland’s slightly curved, rearward-sloping postwar radiator committed the bodybuilder to a continuation of the same shape and direction, so that it looked out of place with an upright-front body, whereas the prewar design seen here looked good with any body shape.

Ian Thompson

16/11/16 – 07:07

Bartons actually acquired four of these from Cumberland but two were 1938 TD5s, all of them had these 1950 ECW bodies. They were purchased in 1959 and served until 1964/5. Quite a good bargain to get bodies which were only nine years old. They also bought four very similar vehicles from Crosville but on the PD1 chassis.

Chris Barker

16/11/16 – 11:39

I always found that the combination of postwar ECW bodies on Leyland TD chassis produced handsome vehicles very pleasing to the eyes and ears – in particular the glorious East Yorkshire Motor Services "Beverley Bar" examples. The same must be said of the PD1/ECW match, though of course these were brand new from the start.

Chris Youhill