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West Yorkshire – Bristol K6B – HWW 863 – 774


Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1950
Bristol K6B
ECW L27/28R

West Yorkshire 774 (DB 36) Bristol K6B is seen new at Chester Street Bus Station, Bradford on the Ilkley stand in 1950 on the 63 service via Manningham Lane to Shipley, an intermediate place before Ilkley. The service at this time ran every 30 minutes with the alternate bus in the hour running as a 68 service via Canal Road to Shipley and then to Ilkley. Only recently had the 63/68 service been operated by double deckers due to a revision of the route in Ilkley which now avoided a low railway bridge in Ben Rhydding. The Bradford to Ilkley service was previously operated by single decker pre-war Bristol L5Gs and Bristol JO5Gs.
This was a route I used often and loved the challenge to the buses climbing Hollins Hill and also the (A65) road dip under the railway bridge near Burley-in-Wharfedale. This bridge was removed after the line from Burley to Otley closed in March 1965. The road level was then changed so no more excitement at testing the bus suspension.
The Bristol K6B/ECW buses were the workhorses for many BTC fleets during the fifties and sixties and this was certainly the case with West Yorkshire. I can never recall a breakdown and the Bristol K6B was certainly a most reliable type of bus. A lovely feature which I often heard on a still evening at home was the throb across the fields of the Bristol AVW engine caused I think by the fuel governor. Perhaps someone with more expert knowledge of Bristol bus mechanics can explain.
Another interesting feature at Chester Street Bus Station seen on the photograph was the green hut adjacent to the Ilkley stand which served as the Inspectors Office. This hut had also the store racks for the “bible” indicators used on most of the pre-war West Yorkshire buses. This hut was always a fascinating place for a small boy to watch the busy activity of the drivers/conductors collecting or returning these cumbersome indicator boards.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

25/05/11 – 16:52

Dare I be precocious enough Richard to say that this excellent piece was written specially for me ?? – a tongue in cheek remark obviously. This is a route known very well to me as a passenger and, later, as a conductor when I worked at WYRCC’s Ilkley Depot in 1960/1. As you rightly say, the Inspectors’ green hut in Chester Street was a constant hive of activity.
Did you know that Chester Street was actually the public thoroughfare right through the centre of the bus station??, although virtually all motorists assumed that it belonged to The Company and so didn’t dare to use it !! Sometime after the “double decking” of the Ilkley services the hourly 68 was discontinued (apart from a few peak hour trips Monday to Friday) and the half hourly service became entirely 63 via Manningham Lane.
There were actually two adjacent railway bridges over the A65 below Menston and, as you say, it was somewhat terrifying for passengers and drivers on the approach, as it seemed certain that the bus roof would be rudely removed – and the sensation was even worse with Samuel Ledgard’s highbridge vehicles.
I can’t honestly remember the intermediate destination blinds being as commendably detailed as shown here – later editions showed only Manningham Lane, Shipley, White Cross. The bottom line in this picture is a little blurred but appears also to say Burley Ben Rhydding. Incidentally the Company seemed to think that Bradford residents would not have heard of Ben Rhydding and so the rule was that on leaving Bradford “ILKLEY” would be shown, and upon reaching the area of local knowledge at Burley the display had to be altered to show “BEN RHYDDING.” I’m always blissfully happy to be reminded of those lovely enjoyable days so thank you again.

Chris Youhill

26/05/11 – 07:30

Very interesting comments about Bradford. Whilst I have a good knowledge of the present day city centre, I’m afraid I have no memories of how it was. Would I be correct in thinking that Chester Street Bus Station was taken out of use when the interchange opened? Do any traces of it still exist or has it been completely obliterated? I’ve seen many a photograph taken against the background of the white wall and always thought it looked a very evocative place.

Chris Barker

27/05/11 – 08:35

I’ve no idea, Chris B, about the present status of Chester Street but I’ll certainly have an “on site” look next time I visit the National Media Museum only a couple of hundred yards (or metres nowadays) away.

Chris Youhill

27/05/11 – 08:37

Chester Street closed with the advent of the Interchange. Chester Street is now just a street and is changed totally although some of the buildings on the”West Yorkshire” side still exist

Chris Hough

27/05/11 – 09:35

I fear, Chris Y, that you will be sadly disappointed, although not surprised, at the present state of Chester Street. It is now a busy dual-carriageway – part of a typical inner-city gyratory road system. However, some of the background buildings seen on old bus photos are still recognisable, eg. the roof lights of the old Public Baths in Morley Street (now a Wetherspoons).
On the Hebble side, there’s a new building, but the West Yorkshire loading area now seems to be a car park. The much-rebuilt 1960s Mecca Ballroom multi-storey, seen in latter day photos of the bus station, still dominates the background at the western entrance.

Paul Haywood

29/05/11 – 07:18

Chris B, as Chris H says, Chester Street bus station was closed following the opening of the Interchange in I think, 1977 – the year of The Queen’s Silver Jubilee. Chris Y’s comment about Chester Street being a public thoroughfare is most interesting, as I remember the roadway very well, but must admit would not have dared to use it for the reason outlined by Chris! The bus station spanned an area between Little Horton Lane (opposite the Silver Blades ice rink) and Morley Street (opposite the top end – or rear – of The Alhambra theatre). It was a place of much interest to the enthusiast with West Yorkshire, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, Hebble and Samuel Ledgard vehicles using it. (Am I right in thinking that Ribble also used it for coaches linking Lancashire and Yorkshire?) In the mid-sixties Bradford CT added even more variety with its AEC Regent Vs and Daimler CVG6LXs, following an agreement allowing joint operation of the Bradford – Eldwick – Dick Hudson’s service with West Yorkshire. It seemed strange at first seeing a bright blue ‘Corporation’ bus in what otherwise seemed to be a mainly red ‘Company’ bus station, but Bradfordians are not easily fazed and took it all in their stride! As Paul states, Chester Street still exists, but sadly as yet another stretch of dual carriageway.

Brendan Smith

31/05/11 – 18:49

This piece was written for me too, Chris. What amazing memories it conjures up! Many a time have I boarded the bus for Ilkley at that very spot against the famous green shed.
I knew Chester Street as a lad, right up to leaving Bradford in 1968, and remember the through street so well, and can count 6 operators who used the facility:-
West Yorkshire, Ledgard, Hebble, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, and Sheffield (C ?).
West Riding also came into Bradford, but from memory, did not use Chester Street.
I always associate older generation Bristols with Gardner “5”s, but the AVW was extremely characterful from a “music” point of view, and made for an extremely fast bus. I can remember “flying” along on the routes out of Bradford, especially past Shipley, and the HWW batch represented, to me, the pinnacle of ECW post war design. Flush interior sides, tubular seats, and metal framing all came together in these vehicles to produce a quality of vehicle not yet bettered, in my view. Superb buses!

John Whitaker

01/06/11 – 07:44

I’m glad there is such affection for the Bristol K (especially the 6B). Many people seem to turn their noses up, calling them boring and bog-standard etc. and I hate to hear it. For sure, you could find them from Lands End (Western National) to Northumberland (United), and Yarmouth (Eastern Counties) to Pwellheli (Crosville)- and a lot of other places and operators in between (take a bow, West Yorkshire). But you will notice that all of the extremities I listed are coastal holiday destinations. For me Bristol K6Bs (and their melodious note in second and third gears, which I could cheerfully listen to for hours) are inextricably associated with happy memories of seaside holidays. (And the sun always shone!)

Stephen Ford

01/06/11 – 07:47

I agree fully John with your commendation of the “HWW” DBs, but their super qualities were suddenly eclipsed for we Ilkley folk when 806 – 809 (DBW1 – 4) arrived – 8 feet wide and with classy white steering wheels. Originally having open platforms (returned later to ECW for doors) they seemed quite simply enormous and spacious and they are a batch from my teenage years which I still hold in great affection.

Chris Youhill

01/06/11 – 07:50

MLL 828_lr

The Chester Street, Bradford thread made me dig out this photo of Ledgard MLL 828 (former RT3518) which clearly shows the through road between the chain fences separating the West Yorkshire stands from “the others”. Unlike most of my photos, this one has the date 14 June 1964 written on it, and it shows the buildings on Little Horton Road being demolished to make way for the Silver Blades Ice Rink (owned by Mecca but not a Ballroom as I mistakenly said in my previous thread.)

Paul Haywood

01/06/11 – 10:22

I agree about the 806 – 809 batch Chris, but when the “new” excitement wore off, and in quiet contemplation (!) I do not think the S series 4 bay design had quite the same balance as the classic final version of the first post war 5 bay style.
I greeted the first DXs with absolute rapture, but looking back, I do not personally hold them in quite the same esteem as the HWW series. Something to do with my age perhaps!

John Whitaker

01/06/11 – 10:22

Stephen, among my many fond memories of the “DB”s one of my favourite recollections couldn’t possibly be further from the seaside !! When I was a conductor at WYRCC Ilkley Depot any of our Lodekkas away for the statutory two weeks overhaul was replaced by a “KDB” from Keighley – one of the batch between KDB 54 -7. One foul Winter evening, with very heavy snow, I left Ilkley with the 5.25 pm to Haworth on service K12 driven by Brian Wadsworth. After we left Addingham to climb to the “whited out” summit at Marchup Cottages the bus began to boil very seriously. This, of course, was long before two way radios and mobile telephones and we felt rather as if we were approaching the North Pole. – “Only one thing for it” said Brian “We’ll have to fill it up with snow.” We both set about the task with gusto, while the red hot radiator and engine hissed and tinkled in astonished protest. Once we achieved the necessary level we resumed the journey – to Haworth and back to Ilkley for 8.07pm – without incident. Looking back of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it was a really foolish first aid measure which I imagine could have caused considerable damage – if Brendan is reading this I must plead forgiveness on the grounds of youthful ignorance of engineering matters and hope that he won’t hold it against me !!

Chris Youhill

01/06/11 – 11:22

I agree with Stephen on every count – especially the AVW

David Oldfield

01/06/11 – 16:50

With such foul weather, I assume, Chris Y, that the radiator was emptied and re-filled with water/antifreeze mix later, to avoid saying goodbye prematurely to the radiator and/or block!

Chris Hebbron

02/06/11 – 05:57

Don’t worry Chris, most people would excuse your first aid measure, as you and your driver showed great initiative under extreme conditions in order to keep the show on the road! Your escapade reminded me of a tale related by Ken Robinson, for many years engine shop foreman at West Yorkshire’s Central Works. Ken was going home to Knaresborough one evening after work, and noted that the bus he was travelling on (a Lodekka) had started to boil en route. On arrival at the bus station the bus was steaming away merrily, but the driver seemed oblivious to this and was about to depart for Harrogate again when Ken intervened. Built like a Foden truck, he was a very fair man, but one who did not suffer fools gladly and spoke his mind when ruffled. He informed the driver who he was, and said under no circumstances was he to leave the site without filling the bus up with water. The driver, no doubt trying to avert being reported, duly did this, and Ken went on his way. Ken said he had only realised a little while later what he had asked of the driver, and hoped that the Lodekka’s red hot radiator and cylinder block had not cracked when the cold water had been poured in!! Thankfully all must been well as he heard no more about the incident, and no doubt gave a sigh of relief that the driver had not reported HIM!!

Brendan Smith

12/06/11 – 07:54

My best memories of all types of Bristol are from WYRCC service 30 between Bradford and Leeds. From Bradford the route ran along Canal Road, then up Kings Road with a right turn into steep Queens Road, which is where the fun began. There were almost inevitably passengers to alight/board just after the lights, and if the driver was really unlucky, also at the stop a little further up, which meant a standing start on a steep incline just before the gradient became even worse prior to the junction with Bolton Road. I recall that on a fully-laden bus on this steepest section all conversation would cease as the driver waited for the very last engine beat before engaging bottom gear in the crash gearbox. If successful, (as it usually was), there would be a collective sigh of relief, and a settling down for the long slow haul up to Bolton Junction, a stretch of road shared with Bradford trolleybuses which flew up the gradient in great contrast to the grinding Bristols.

Robert Appleby

13/06/11 – 07:59

Very evocative, Robert, I can picture the scene vividly, just as you describe!

Chris Hebbron

19/06/11 – 10:28

Your stories of boiling Bristols takes me back to the early 1950’s and to the sunny fields of Somerset. My Great Aunt had a farm at Somerton and my mother and I used to travel from Bristol to stay for a week or so during the school holidays. At the time my father had a firm’s car but could not use it privately so to get there involved a journey on the bus. Leaving Prince Street (the original bus terminal), we rode on mostly Bristol GO5G or Lowbridge K Bristols, the height being important due to the number of railway bridges on the A38 as the old Radstock coal lines and the wonderful Somerset and Dorset railways crossed over the road.
The journey was around forty miles down to Street where the route ended and my most clear memory was that it seemed to take the whole afternoon to get there and when we arrived the bus was always boiling merrily but nobody seemed concerned! The stop was outside a hotel and maybe the driver topped up for the return journey home with water from there.
The onward journey to Somerton was around 5/6 miles and for that part my memory is dim but with the benefit of age, I’m fairly sure it was probably done in a locally run Bedford OB.. another of my favourites!
Memories! I’m sorry my posting is not about the Yorkshire days but back then, it might as well have been in Africa for us Southern softies!

Richard Leaman

11/07/11 – 07:36

Like Stephen, I too am glad there is much affection for the Bristol/ECW K (and come to that, its single-decked sibling the L). It has all the hallmarks of a classic bus in having a well-engineered chassis with an enviable reliability record, a soundly-constructed yet attractively-styled body, and above all else a fitness for purpose. The melodious gearbox was an added bonus, together with that ‘chuckle’ from the transmission sometimes heard when setting off up a gentle incline.
Robert’s comments about the notorious hill starts at the Queen’s Road/Bolton Road junction in Bradford brought back memories as I know that area well. Another ‘unlucky driver’ spot was the bus stop towards the top end of Hollins Hill between Shipley and White Cross, which served the residents of Esholt. For a while in the mid-sixties I travelled by bus to school in Bradford each day from Harrogate (route 53 via Otley) and dreaded this stop on the journey home, where speed was obviously of the essence. A ‘drop off’ here meant an endless crawl in a low gear to the top of the hill for the poor bus and its driver – even with the newer Lodekkas. As a schoolboy I found it both fascinating and frustrating that passengers only ever seemed to alight here – nobody ever boarded! In my schoolboy mind I was convinced that ‘they’ did this deliberately, rather than catching their own Esholt (65) bus home! For much of the journey Samuel Ledgard ‘deckers could also be seen, and a schoolboy cheer could often be heard when ‘our’ West Yorkshire steed overtook one at a bus stop – only to be replaced with a “boo!” when the ‘Sammie’s’ passed us at a bus stop later on! Happy days indeed.

Brendan Smith

— Top of this posting —

York – West Yorkshire – Bristol K5G – OWT 201 – YDG 88


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

York – West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H30/26 re-bodied H28/28R in 1955

This bus is not what it seems as it started life as a 1939 Bristol K5G with ECW H30/26 body, numbered Y 702 (YDG 72) and registered DWU 995. A previous posting shows one of these buses of this batch (Y 706) in original condition in York. Re-numbered as YDG 88, this bus is seen in “new” condition in York in 1955.
West Yorkshire decided on a major rebuild of the K5G chassis which included new side frames and re-registering for this last tranche of eleven buses that were re-bodied by the ECW. These buses were 26ft long so the ECW body which was of the style to fit the 27 ft Bristol KS chassis was shortened. This is evident by the reduced width of the front side cab window and also the upper saloon side front windows. I believe similar ECW bodies were supplied to Brighton, Hove and District for their re-bodied ex London Transport Bristol K6As in 1954/55.
The re-registering the chassis was not the usual practice by West Yorkshire as many of their single decker Bristol J chassis received new side frames in the period 1946/47 when their bodies were rebuilt but kept the same registrations as did all the earlier 1937/38 prewar re-bodied Bristol K5Gs. Maybe someone can explain the policy of when to re-register a chassis. I wonder whether the York residents thought YDG 88 was a new bus as I think the Gardner 5LW engine was still rigidly mounted so a loud noise and vibration would be evident for the passengers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

Full lists of Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.

21/08/11 – 16:24

A most fascinating resume of this particular batch of rebuilds – I wonder if the method used to “get rid of” the extra 12 inches of the more modern bodywork caused any degree of cramping in the cab – I imagine it must have done. The destination blind brings back far more recent memories for me of my days helping out willingly at Selby Depot for Caldaire/British Bus/Cowie/Arriva. Our normal York services were to Leeds, Doncaster, Goole or Pontefract, but unexpectedly an evening service (409) was commenced from Piccadilly to Fulford Broadway – un-necessary, and competition gone mad !!

Chris Youhill

22/08/11 – 07:45

Chris, the KS had a longer bonnet with the front bulkhead set back a bit to accommodate the Gardner 6LW engine, hence the greater length of the cab. I imagine that the rebuilt body on the K5G and K6A would have retained the original cab dimensions of those models. A similar situation existed with the Guy Arab III, which had the extra length for a 6LW in the “snout”, whereas the Arab IV had the bulkhead repositioned slightly further back to avoid feature of the projecting radiator.

Roger Cox

23/08/11 – 10:02

It’s been something of a puzzle to many why this particular batch of West Yorkshire K-type ‘rehabs’ was re-registered Richard. When their prewar chassis were overhauled at WY Central Works, they were rebuilt with new chassis side members, and all other major units and components were overhauled, and refitted to the chassis. New PV2 radiators were also fitted, to give a more modern appearance. As you say, earlier batches of WY K-types similarly treated were not re-registered. Whether the ‘Yorkies’ also had new cross-members and outriggers fitted to the chassis on overhaul I do not know, but it may be a possibility and thus the chassis could have been deemed to be ‘new’ and re-registered?
In John F Gill’s informative ‘History of York-West Yorkshire’ the author states that the JOC decided that YDG66-76 “should be rebuilt with new chassis utilising the original running units and fitted with new bodies at the approximate cost of £2500 per vehicle, and that if possible the vehicles should be re-registered”. Later in the text John mentions that the old bodies had been removed and scrapped at Harrogate, new chassis parts fitted at WY’s Central Works costing £272, and the new ECW bodies cost £1077 each. Presumably labour and other costs would have then taken the figure nearer to the aforementioned £2500. All fascinating stuff, but which also begs the question – why was the batch also renumbered following rebuild to become YDG82-92? What handsome machines though, and very ‘York’. The lack of adverts on YDG88 also shows up the shine of the hand-painted coachwork a treat. Very nice!

Brendan Smith

23/08/11 – 14:13

Reregistration of rebuilds seems to be a complex subject. Yorkshire Traction, Yorkshire Woollen and County Motors all rebodied Leyland PS2s as double deckers, as they had a surplus of single deckers. While the YWD ones kept the registrations of the original chassis those in the YTC fleet were given marks contemporary with the new bodies. Presumably Dewsbury CBC was not willing to reregister these rebuilt vehicles but Barnsley was.
County tried to give theirs new registrations but Huddersfield CBC would not allow it so they were transferred to YTC and reregistered by Barnsley.
Bristol Tramways rebuilt some early 1930s B types with L type chassis in 1949 and the wartime bodies were lengthened. Later they were given 1949 bodies yet they always retained the 1930s registrations. This was to get round limits on the number of new chassis Bristol could build after nationalisation by classifying these as rebuilds, including retaining the B chassis number with an L suffix.

Geoff Kerr

24/08/11 – 08:19

One aspect which has gone unnoticed/unmentioned is the the whole range of the DG index was a Gloucestershire registration mark!

Chris Hebbron

24/08/11 – 10:30

Chris H I spotted that but after reading the first posting again, I think that was a fleet number rather than the registration as it quote a different one..
Quote “This bus is not what it seems as it started life as a 1939 Bristol K5G with ECW H30/26 body, numbered Y 702 (YDG 72) and registered DWU 995. A previous posting shows one of these buses of this batch (Y 706) in original condition in York. Re-numbered as YDG 88, this bus is seen in “new” condition in York in 1955.”
I was puzzled by the Gloucestershire link as well!

Richard Leaman

24/08/11 – 20:48

You’re right, Richard. For example, I was thinking the reference Y702 was the fleet number, followed by the reg’n mark, whereas it was the body, then fleet number. Silly me!

Chris Hebbron

24/08/11 – 20:50

YDG is the fleet number! Was I dreaming again? What this has to do with Gloucestershire registration marks I do not follow! YDG stands for York..double deck..Gardner.
This is a wonderfully evocative post, and a super photograph. What I would give to hear the wonderful sounds they made just once more!
I have been attempting to research which other Tilling fleets had this short style of KS body apart from York. Brighton H and D rebodied their ex London Bs to this style, and Hants and Dorset also rebodied some Ks to this style, some open top.
Something tells me there were others. Please can anyone advise?

John Whitaker

25/08/11 – 07:07

That is a very interesting question John W, something which has intrigued me, not so much who had them but how the final outcome was determined. It shows, in a way, that the Bristol K could have had a four bay body all along but of course they didn’t really come into vogue until the late 1940’s and ECW hadn’t designed such a thing until the advent of the KS. When other chassis makes arrived for rebodying, however, the five bay style was usually retained, I’m thinking of Guy Arabs and an AEC Regent for Midland General in 1955 and Guy Arabs, Leyland PD1’s and Albions for Scottish companies. Were former Tilling companies able to state any requirements or was it entirely down to the drawing office at Lowestoft, or were other factors involved?

Chris Barker

26/08/11 – 06:55

Very intriguing Chris, I agree. Perhaps the nationalised ownership had something to do with it in that Bristols, the “official” make, could be rebuilt with a “modern” look, whereas non Bristols did not matter in the same way, even if under BTC control as was Mansfield.
In the case of York-West Yorkshire, I strongly suspect that these vehicles were presented to the public as new, which, in a way, they were, but just re-using reconditioned running units. Bristol may have had a stock of obsolescent K chassis frames, with no sales potential due to the KS(W), and LD being the vogue. It would perhaps have been difficult also to fit KS frames, as other mitigating circumstances would apply, such as prop shaft lengths etc. I am pretty sure that the Brighton and Hants and Dorset rebodies retained original chassis frames, as they were not re registered , but I am open to correction as always!

John Whitaker

26/08/11 – 06:56

Chris, ECW did build a batch of twelve experimental 4-bay bodies on K-type chassis in 1948/49, and one actually went to York-West Yorkshire (YDB73). Brighton Hove & District and Bristol also received one each, with Eastern Counties taking the remaining nine. An ex-ECOC example was stored at West Yorkshire’s Grove Park depot in Harrogate for a while in the 1980’s. It looked in need of a lot of love and attention, and I don’t know who owned it or what happened to it, but hope such a rare vehicle survived into preservation. The body did look a bit ‘odd’ though, as it was of full four-bay construction rather than four-and-a-quarter. The overall outline was of a standard highbridge ECW body of the period, but with the main side windows ‘stretched’ lengthways. Front and rear upper deck side windows remained short in length however, as on a standard K-type body. This, and the lack of a quarter window or panel ahead of the rear platform looked decidedly strange, and the later 4-bay design used on the KS/KSW chassis looked to me, a more balanced and happier design.

Brendan Smith

26/08/11 – 14:35

I have always loved the ECW high-bridge special four and a quarter bay body built on the Bristol K chassis 1954 /55. I bought the photo of YDG 88 posted above on a West Yorkshire Information Service Tour in 1956 and now sharing it with others has brought a great deal of information about these lovely Bristol K5G buses. I believe there were only 27 of these special bodies built. Brighton had 6, Hants & Dorset had 10 and York West Yorkshire had 11 and all were re bodies. If anybody has further information of more than the 27 I have listed, please submit a comment.

Richard Fieldhouse

27/08/11 – 07:27

Quoting John above..
” Bristol may have had a stock of obsolescent K chassis frames, with no sales potential due to the KS(W), and LD being the vogue.”
I used to live very near to the Bristol Commercial Vehicle works (Motor Constructional Works if preferred!) and when riding my three wheeler bike past the open yard, even then I saw that piles of brake drums, axle assemblies, chassis rails, steering components etc. etc, were left just lying outside on a patch of ground right next to the main Bath Road and completely unprotected except for the silver paint! No railings, no fence, no security and left there for years! Selecting parts for one off designs would have not been any problem!
Try doing that now and keeping them there overnight would be a challenge. Different days!

Richard Leaman

30/08/11 – 08:01

That indeed would explain it Richard! Piles of chassis frames etc at the Bristol works when you passed on your bike. We used to make similar excursions on our bikes around various depots and scrap yards in the Bradford area. Times have changed as you say!
Perhaps new chassis sides were fitted to the H & D and B H & D rebodies, even if not re-registered.
There were no lowbridge equivalents as far as I can see, and it was about this time when H and D had some K chassis rebodied with lowbridge ECW bodies built to the original 5 bay style, some, I believe, as “8 footers”
All detailed in ECW Part 2, a book I have unfortunately mislaid!

John Whitaker

Eastern Counties – Bristol K5G – LKH 255 – KNG 255

Eastern Counties - Bristol K5G - LKH 255 - KNG 255

Eastern Counties Omnibus Company
1950
Bristol K5G
ECW H56R

This is a picture taken in my teen-age years of one of my favourite K5G’s which used to regularly run the route 92A to my home council estate in Norwich. Taken in Surrey Street garage on 23rd August 1969 it rests for the night.
The bus was withdrawn at the end of March 1970.
Surrey Street Bus Station was built on a rising gradient between Surrey Street and Queens Road, and opened in 1936. The garage was huge (able to store 180 buses I believe). The area is still the bus station, but in its place now is a modern bus terminus right on the spot where the garage was.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Graham W

15/08/13 – 17:40

Nice “atmospheric” shot, Graham. Thanks for posting.

Pete Davies

16/08/13 – 06:36

Yes and amazingly the first Eastern Counties bus on the site – just as I was preparing to send one myself to redress the deficiency.

John Stringer

16/08/13 – 14:51

Interesting that the ECOC Ks lasted until 1970. All the Bristol Omnibus ones had gone by 1966. More hills there of course but most were K6A or 6B.

Geoff Kerr

17/08/13 – 16:37

What a great photograph, which brings the memories flooding back from the days when I drove for E.C.O.C at Cambridge (1970-1975). It could easily be mistaken for Hills Road garage, in the late evening when all the buses are back in and cleaned, refuelled etc., ready for the run out. In my day they would have been LKH’s and LKD’s. On freezing winter mornings the exhaust smoke would billow out from the garage as the buses were on cold start, and I can still feel the icy cold steering wheel almost sticking to my hands… gloves were essential for an early start. What would I now give for an opportunity to drive one of these on the 106 up to Girton Corner and back through the city centre and on to Red Cross (now Addenbrooke’s Hospital)

Norman Long

17/08/13 – 16:39

ectt

In the submission by Graham W on the ECOC Bristol K5G, he makes mention of the Surrey Street Bus Station built in 1936.
Attached is a copy of the ECOC Timetable commencing 25th March 1936 for Norwich Services.
ECOC have not wasted a second in advertising the new facility to its passengers by putting it on the front of the latest Timetable.
How much more interesting is that cover than the modern day stuff.

Stephen Howarth

02/07/14 – 06:30

I remember the SC with ECOC. Lowestoft had TVF 520 which was deployed on the 20A to Rock Estate. Noisy and slow! Attractive little bus though. Yes, the back axle was a BMC one.
The K? attractive bus but with a 5LW decidedly sluggish. Seats were a darn sight more comfortable than the nasty plastic things too many operators are fond of now. The interior was also more welcoming, I think, not having that awful dark grey ceiling you see too often now. LKH 173, OVF 173 was at Lowestoft into the 1970s. As regards driving them, one of the inspectors at Lowestoft described them as “..horrible things to drive..”

Brian Moore

02/07/14 – 11:00

Two lovely pictures above from the days of “real” bus operation. I shall never forget my first encounter with beautiful Cambridge, when I worked for Wallace Arnold and was on my very first tour feeder from Leeds to Southend Airport – no route learning of any kind in those days, and only an inadequate “Roneo stencilled” A4 sheet with scant information for the 207 mile journey. Lunch was at the University Arms – unloading and parking nigh on impossible – after which the sheet advised “via A10/A130 Trumpington High Street” etc etc. By now I was well over an hour late and breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the sign “A10.” I couldn’t help noticing lovely red ECOC Bristols coming the other way showing “Trumpington” and began to worry – surely more than one driver wouldn’t have forgotten to change the destination blind ?? I pulled up and asked a friendly constable about the route and his kindly face looked sorry for me as he said “Oh no, you’re on the A10 to Ely, you should be on the A10 for Royston.”
I was now ready to abandon ship and run away but carried on, somehow. I think the only thing that saved my sanity that scorching hot summer day was when I descended a long hill lined with lovely trees into a beautiful unspoilt market town, “Saffron Walden.” Older readers may remember the comedy radio weekly show “Much Binding in the Marsh” in which Richard Murdoch and Kenneth Horne were RAF officers who always asked each other “Are you going to Saffron Walden for the weekend Sir?” I’d always thought that like the title of the show Saffron Walden was an invented “spoof” name !! Eventually arriving at Southend Airport at 7.00pm (two hours late) the rampaging courier, a Spanish man who should have been with me from Leeds but helped himself to two unauthorised days off, cried out “Veeere ‘av you been – ve have dinner in Ostende at 7.30pm.” By now completely drained I asked him where had HE been as it was part of his job to show me the route. I managed to smile to myself with relief at the thought of the Channel Airways Dakota being spectacularly unable to reach Belgium in time for the soup !! After that, the Southend run became one of my favourite jobs which I did often, and during our evenings there I fell in love with the town and the Essex area. The cherry on the cake was the arrangement whereby the coaches were cleaned and refuelled at Prittlewell depot by Eastern National.

Chris Youhill

28/07/14 – 07:49

Like Norman Long, I was also a driver with ECOC at Cambridge. I later moved to St Ives outstation and then Peterborough, by which time the area had become Cambus. At Peterborough I became the regular driver of the by-then-semi-preserved FLF453 with, usually, Ken Johnson on the back. FLF453 was one of the class I also drove regularly whilst it was based at Cambridge. One ‘pig’ of an FLF was 465 which during its last years had only a four speed gearbox fitted. Nobody told unfamiliar drivers about this and they found out the embarrassing way – as I did one day on Victoria Avenue.
Regarding the LKH class, the last 7′ 6″ example in Cambridge was 135(HPW 135)and I believe this became the final 7′ 6″ K in the ECOC fleet. Of the 8′ versions, the final pair in Cambridge were 168 (OVF 168) and 269 (LNG 269). The honour of being the final example in Cambridge fell to 269 which I believe just made it into 1971. One of the FAH registered examples, FAH 106, also lingered on in Cambridge almost to the end. It was still running in 1969 anyway.
On that very well served destination ‘Service’, I believe the habit of displaying this originated back in ‘tin bible’ days when changing destinations involved a rummage through a hut in Drummer Street. But in later ECOC years ‘Service’ was displayed sometimes out of laziness but sometimes because the bus concerned had come from another depot. The practice of displaying ‘Service’ was officially prohibited if the proper display was available but the inspectors and management never really bothered to enforce it. The practice continued into Cambus days. Displaying ‘Service’ wasn’t really a problem as local people knew the routes and tourists didn’t know the difference between Service, Red Cross, Keynes Road, Foster Road or Fen Estate anyway!
The SC4LK (LC) was a horrid, noisy little thing. The back axle was indeed a BMC product (usually quoted as being from Austin) and I think the gearbox was a David Brown effort. The Gardner 4LK engine was essentially the same unit as used in the midget submarines of WWII. On thing I remember the LC for was the enormous reversing lamp on its rear. Also, if memory serves me correctly, there was a bell cord along the saloon ceiling similar to that used by London Transport instead of bell pushes.
Cambridge depot had LKH256-260 and possibly 261. Of those 256-8 spent just about all their lives at Cambridge.
The KNG (and onwards) registered examples always seemed modern in their day due to having stainless steel (or chrome plated) grab poles and seat grabs. Earlier K’s (HPW, GPW, FAH, FNG etc registrations) usually had wooden seat grabs and grab poles covered in some sort of black plastic. Another difference, not visible on the picture of 255, was the upper deck front grabrails. KNG reg. onwards had two separate grabrails mounted on top of the destination box, whereas earlier K’s had a black rail mounted midway up the front windows and passing right across. From memory the lowbridge LK types similarly differed according to age.

Darren Kitson

Western National – Bristol K6B – KUO 972 – 959

Western National - Bristol K6B - KUO 972 - 959

Western National Omnibus Co Ltd
1950
Bristol K6B
ECW L27/28R

KUO 972 is former Western National 959 dating from 1950. It is a K6B with ECW L27/28R body that has undergone full restoration. It was withdrawn in 1970 after spending all it’s working life for Western National in Cornwall. It is seen in service at Brislington on 10th August 2014 during the Bristol Vintage Bus Group running day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

26/08/14 – 10:49

Couldn’t get to Brislington this year so thanks, Ken, for a nice atmospheric b&w picture of a fine bus. Forget all those Routemasters and Atlanteans—the K(SW)6B is a TRUE classic.

Ian T

26/08/14 – 15:34

For others who may not have been able to get to Brislington some more of my pictures can be found at www.flickr.com/photos/  – set includes a Routemaster! I was meant to travel down on OTT 43 but we only got as far as Strensham services before having to turn back with problems with the exhaust manifold. So I then drove by car to Brislington arriving much later than I had planned. Fortunately the weather improved as the day went on. This vehicle is scheduled to be at Kingsbridge running day in September

Ken Jones

Maidstone & District – Bristol K6A – HKE 860 – DH 152

Maidstone & District - Bristol K6A - HKE 860 - DH 152

Maidstone & District Motor Services Ltd
1945
Bristol K6A
Weymann H30/26R

In the years before the BAT-Tilling rift in 1942, the Maidstone & District company developed quite a liking for the Bristol double deck chassis. Initially, the GO5G type was tried, 12 going to the main fleet and 4 to the Chatham & District subsidiary in 1936. They did not impress. The bodies were removed in 1938 and the chassis were sold on to Bristol Tramways. Despite this inauspicious start, Chatham & District then took 41 with highbridge bodies and Maidstone & District 12 with lowbridge bodies of the new K5G type from the end of 1938 up to the outbreak of war in September 1939. When Tilling and BET split, Tilling group fleets retained the policy of standardising on Bristol/ECW machinery, whilst the BET companies sourced their vehicles from various manufacturers. However, the exigencies of wartime production did not grant the indulgence of much choice in such matters and operators largely had to take what they were given, though the Tilling companies preferred to minimise their intake of non Bristol double deck machinery. Nevertheless, Chatham and District managed to obtain 5 and Maidstone & District 7 examples of the total of 85 unfrozen K5G buses produced in 1942. Towards the end of the war, matters were relaxed to a certain degree, and, within the limitations on offer, operators were able to express a preference for the model that best fitted into the fleet profile, though this was not always heeded by the authorities. During and immediately after the war, the Bristol concern produced a limited number of utility K type buses in three sanctions, but these lost the 5LW engine in favour of the 6 cylinder AEC A202, a version of the 7.7 (actually of 7.58 litres) specifically designed to fit in place of the Gardner. The W1 sanction consisted of 150 chassis, the W2 of 100, and W3 of 200. The W1 and W2 sanctions were equipped with the earlier style of high mounted radiator, but the W3 buses had the new lower mounted PV2 bonnet and radiator. Maidstone and District became an enthusiastic operator, accepting 30 of W1, 19 of W2 and 5 of W3. After the war, Maidstone and District continued to take deliveries of the K6A until the sale of the Bristol company to the government led to the withdrawal of that make from the open market. In recognition of the qualities of the Bristol chassis, Maidstone & District embarked upon a rebodying programme for the unfrozen K5G and utility K6A fleet, but the pre war examples were sold out of service in the mid 1950s. The rebodied K5Gs retained their high mounted radiators, but the rebodied W1 and W2 sanctions of K6As were fitted with the low mounted PV2 radiator. In most cases, new H30/26R bodywork of very attractive design was supplied by Weymann, but the later rebuilds received the decidedly less appealing Orion type. Curiously, many of the later buses of 1946/7/8, which retained their original bodywork to the end, were sold out of service earlier than the rebodied wartime machines. The photograph above shows chassis number W2.038, DH 152, HKE 860 of 1945 with a PV2 radiator and Weymann H30/26R body that replaced the original high radiator and Duple H30/26R in May 1953. It is seen in Tonbridge in 1960 on its way to the village of East Peckham, once a major centre of the hop growing industry. This bus stayed in the Maidstone and District fleet until 1966.

MD Car

Sadly the limitations of the Comet S camera lens prevent me from identifying the splendid car following the bus.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

16/03/15 – 06:50

What a fantastic shot. The long since built over Tonbridge Garage had several examples of these old Bristols which seemed to have been used to cover just about anything (at Tunbridge Wells they had distinct allocations).
Route 88 was allocated OMO Reliances and provided a useful connection to the nearest major hospital at Pembery, and connected with route 33 at the East Peckham end of the route.
On the offside is the road taken by Tonbridges regular Bristol allocation, Route 100, a 20 minute frequency town service with LL6A single deckers.

Patrick Armstrong

17/03/15 – 16:51

Wonderful-looking decker, and I bet the reality was just as good as the appearance. I was momentarily fooled by the “East Peckham” destination and imagined that the bus was on hire to London Transport, but somehow the landscape seemed not to bear that out, so I googled E. Peckham and found it just to the west of the Paddock Wood–Maidstone railway line—the very line I hope to use to get to the SE Bus Festival on the 28th of March.
Has any of our members been to this event, and if so how d’you rate it? The list of vehicles expected to attend looks very impressive. Last time I went to Maidstone was to see the trolleybuses before they disappeared, so I’m a bit out of date.

Ian T

18/03/15 – 07:01

Lovely photo and attractive bus. It was a very sensible conversion job by M&D. However, it always looks odd to me to see Bristol K’s without ECW bodies!

Chris Hebbron

18/03/15 – 07:02

There can’t have been a world of difference between the Bristol K6A and the AEC Regent II. Presumably the Bristol gearbox and transmission produced a somewhat different sound but surely the performance would have been similar? Is there anyone who has experience of driving both?

Chris Barker

19/03/15 – 07:18

Ian T:
IMO, the South East Bus Festival is definitely worth attending. The site is huge and features a perimeter road used by some of the vehicles to give rides to the public.
The vehicles are not jammed in lines and there are good photographic opportunities.
There is spacious covered accommodation for sales stalls and displays such as models, slide shows and there are talks by professional busmen – Roger Davies of Classic Bus fame has appeared, for example.
Plenty of other vehicles such as lorries, tractors and classic cars are also on display.
You can find a list of bus entries on the Arriva website and will see sister vehicle HKE 867 has been entered. It usually is on the free rides circuit so you should be able to sample it!
One last bit of advice – wear warm clothing and bring your own refreshments! The site is on the top of the North Downs and can be breezy.

Malcolm Boyland

21/03/15 – 07:03

I would also agree that the South East Bus Festival is worth attending. Where else can you have a ride on a pre-war Leyland Titan and the latest hybrid?

Nigel Turner

21/03/15 – 15:44

Malcolm and Nigel: many thanks for you info and advice.
The event sounds too good to miss.
Chris B: I’ve never driven a K6A but I’ve been lucky enough to ride the very lively Thames Valley 446 (DBL 154). Bus engineer pal Graham Green of Reading reckons that the AEC 7.7 goes better in other makers’ vehicles than it does in AEC’s own. I’m sure the 5-speed gearbox in the Thames Valley K6A reinforces that impression. How does the Daimler CWA6 compare with the CWD6? My guess is that the Daimler engine’s 13% greater capacity gives little advantage in performance.

Ian T

22/03/15 – 06:43

There is a (very) short video of the sound of a restored Lincolnshire K6A at this site (scroll to the bottom):- www.lvvs.org.uk/dbe187.htm  
The engine was rigidly mounted in both the K6A and the Regent II, but the mellow sounding Bristol constant mesh gearbox contrasted with the scream of the AEC straight cut gear D124 crash gearbox. Both types employed the triple servo braking system, and both, again, were noted for relatively light steering characteristics.
The Daimler CD6 had a capacity of 8.6 litres and a nominal output of 100bhp at 1750 rpm, but the quality varied greatly between individual examples. Like the contemporary and even more problematical Crossley HOE7 engine of identical bore and stroke (copied from the pre war Leyland unit), it performed best in single deck chassis. However, OBP does have an expert who can give an informed opinion of the Daimler engine from personal experience. Please step forward Chris Youhill.

Roger Cox

22/03/15 – 06:43

Very interesting piece particularly as I once owned an ex Hants & Dorset 1945 K6A open topper fitted with an AEC engine (see my description under ‘Hants & Dorset 1945 Bristol K6A‘).
By the way, the touring car following the bus is almost certainly a Riley Nine from the early to mid 1930’s.

John Barringer

22/03/15 – 09:20

I am sure that you are right about the Riley, John. On the first Sunday in October each year I travel down from East Anglia to the old Croydon Airport building for an ATC reunion. A fellow “old cadet” brings his splendid open tourer Riley Nine in British Racing Green. I plan to get one when I win the Lottery – not this week, sadly (can you believe that the same thing happened last week as well?!).

Roger Cox

22/03/15 – 14:25

Well done, John B, for identifying the car as a Riley Nine – my frustrations are over! There was always something special (and quirky) about Rileys, before the advent of ‘badge engineering’!
Roger C – I’ve said before that I grew up in the Morden that was LTE’s Daimlerland post-war. I recall that on the front inside of the driver’s cab above the windscreen of D140 was the chalk message, “D140, the fastest D of them all”. It was one of the dozen CWD’s in the 281-strong fleet. You could always tell the CWD’s from the CWA’s, because the inspection holes in the bonnet-sides of each type were in a different place. So there might have been some extra performance with them.
Of course, any advantage disappeared when the engines were replaced by more driver/maintenance-friendly ex-STL AEC engines, around 1950!

Chris Hebbron

23/03/15 – 07:08

Doncaster had some K6A’s and CVD6’s of similar post-war -1948- vintage. The Bristols seemed confined to the straight up and down former tram Highfields route whilst the Daimlers went further and served the more varied and longer Skellow routes. I am prompted to note this because Roger reminded me of the agonised sound of the AEC gearbox and the impression of great revs in a short time on starting off, without any great forward progress. The Daimlers on the other hand seemed much more refined and even speedy: unfortunately their smell of hot diesel at rest, especially with the special cooling device (engine side panel resting on mudguard) in use cannot be replicated on this site- roll on smellerama…

Joe

25/03/15 – 16:25

Just a note about the car identified above. It is a 1929/30 Riley Model 9 Tourer as you have recalled. It is an early car and is a desirable “Eligible” car for Vintage Sports Car Club membership events. In good condition they are a delight to drive as was/is my 1937 12/4 Falcon version!

Richard Leaman

10/10/18 – 05:15

What is also interesting is the different styles of Weymann body fitted. The post war KKK Bristols (apart from one) had what was the post war equivalent of the pre war five bay Weymann body (similar to the LT post war STLs). Some of the HKE rebodyings had the same style. There then followed the 1951/2 version (as above) which had deeper windows. This style was also fitted to the rebodied Guys (again except one) and Daimlers as well as the high radiator Chatham Traction K5Gs. There then followed the 1953 four bay style (as exemplified by the preserved K6A) and then finally the Orion. The last two body styles were only fitted to the low radiator Bristol K6As. The LKT lowbridge Bristol K6As also had a lowbridge version of this style of bodywork fitted from new. All the vehicles were 7 foot 6 inches wide requiring a special narrow version of the Orion body.

Gordon Mackley

Keighley – West Yorkshire – Bristol K5G – CWX 671 – KDG 26

Keighley - West Yorkshire - Bristol K5G - CWX 671 - KDG 26

Keighley – West Yorkshire
1938
Bristol K5G
Roe L27/28R

Keighley – West Yorkshire was established as a branch of West Yorkshire Road Car in 1930, if we believe the entry on Wikipedia. CWX 671 was new to KWY in 1938 and is a Bristol K5G, but the bodywork is not what one might expect, being by Roe rather than by ECW, and is to L27/28R layout being rebodied in 1950, it originally did have an ECW L27/26R body. We see her in North Albert Street, on the corner of Kent Street, Fleetwood, arriving to take her place for Tram Sunday on 20 July 2003.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

28/08/15 – 06:56

It was actually 1932 when Keighley Corporation “gave way” into Keighley West Yorkshire Services Ltd. Also, after the April 1954 renumbering, these DGs never had the fleet number on the front dash as shown here. Before the April 1954 renumbering, they DID carry fleet numbers here.
These Roe bodies were of exceptional quality and were ordered because ECW were unable to carry out the total rebody requirement for the K class pre war buses. It was part of a wider “ex Tilling Group” exercise with United Automobile also being involved.
Wonderful old Bristol buses, and firm favourites of mine as we were blessed with a good allocation at Bradford depot!
Thanks Pete for a super memory jogger!

John Whitaker

29/08/15 – 06:53

Thanks, John. I wasn’t aware of her original body details, and I suspect that Peter added this bit from his sources.

Pete Davies

29/08/15 – 06:54

Exceptionally good-looking body, the more so because it’s a low-bridged one, yet don’t obviously look it.
The blind display itself is very informative, if not presented well in the photo!
Thank goodness the re-build also included the lower PV radiator, otherwise the overall effect would have been greatly diminished!.

Chris Hebbron

01/09/15 – 07:18

As John points out, ECW at the time were at full stretch, with full order books and a backlog developing, hence the rebodying of sixteen of West Yorkshire’s Bristol K5G ‘rehab’ chassis by Roe in 1950. The vehicles concerned were Keighley-West Yorkshire K362/366 (BWY994/998) dating from 1937, and K381-384 (CWX669-672) from 1938. Main fleet vehicles so treated were 385-394 (CWX673-682) from 1939. In the 1954 renumbering K362/366 became KDG16/20, K381-384 became KDG24-27, and 385-394 became DG28-35. When delivered, they were unusual in having the beading edging the cream bands picked out in red, rather than the usual black, and I believe all sixteen retained this feature throughout their WY/KWY lives. A lovely shot of KDG26, and to my eyes bright sunshine always seemed to show the Tilling red at its best. Wonderful.

Brendan Smith

01/09/15 – 07:19

KDG26 was part of a batch of 16 buses supplied with Roe low-bridge bodies in 1950. 10 were owned by the West Yorkshire Road Car Company Ltd and 6 including KDG26 were owned by Keighley-West Yorkshire Services Ltd. My records for 1953 show all the 10 WYRCC buses were allocated to the Bradford depot and this confirms the comments from John W. They were lovely solid buses to ride on and sometimes appeared on the Bradford to Ilkley 63 service which was my home route.
I do recall United Automobile having some similar Bristol K5G/Roe re-bodies but I am not sure of the number they had. Can anybody supply more information?

Richard Fieldhouse

01/09/15 – 07:20

CWX 671_2
CWX 671_3

More shots of KDG 26 taken at a Gardner Engine Rally held in June 2005 at Castlefield Canal Basin in Manchester. As well as buses the event included lorries, narrowboats and static engines. Anything was welcome as long it had a Gardner engine. It was a very successful event but I am not aware that it was ever repeated although I moved away from the north west shortly after and lost touch with events in that area.

Philip Halstead

02/09/15 – 06:58

The fascinating thing about these Roe rebodied K5Gs is the body profile, which seemed to have more in common with the pre-war ECW bodies carried originally, than the contemporary ECW design!
The chassis overhaul was very thorough, including of course, the update to PV2 radiator.
I doubt that the original bodies were worn out either, as 5 were transferred to 707-711, the W sanction K6As originally with Strachan utility bodies, later to be K5Gs. Probably the whole exercise was the result of a calculation to maximise the life expectancy, an aim which was well fulfilled!
To cover this K rebodying programme, the G type buses mainly remained in service until 1951/2, and what memories they bring back!

PS. !! Just to echo Brendan`s comment about Tilling red! It was a classic livery . If only the modern image was so adorned !!

John Whitaker

02/09/15 – 06:59

Thank you for your thoughts, gents.

Pete Davies

03/09/15 – 07:15

Coincidentally First Leeds have just repainted a Volvo/Gemini double decker into WYRCC Tilling red with single cream band livery (or an approximation of it).

John Stringer

04/09/15 – 07:09

Interesting thought, John. It has to be better than the multiple shades of grey “camouflage” paint job.

Pete Davies

04/09/15 – 07:12

With reference to the comment on West Yorkshire RCC by Richard Fieldhouse, United rebodied 4 prewar buses with Roe lowbridge bodies;
LUT1 EHN 617 Bristol K5G 47.088 Roe 3058 L27/28R
LUT2 EHN 618 Bristol K5G 47.089 Roe 3062 L27/28R
LUT3 EHN 620 Bristol K5G 47.091 Roe 3067 L27/28R
LUT4 EHN 621 Bristol K5G 47.092 Roe 3071 L27/28R
BGL 17-18,20-21, later BDO 17,18,20 & 21. New in 1939 with ECW 5684/5/7/8 L24/24R series 1 bodies, Rebodied in 1950 as LUT 1-4.
EHN 619 was not rebodied.
United also bought two new Bristol L5G single deck buses bodied by Roe in 1952;
BG 13 PHN 408 Bristol L5G 73.177R Roe ? B35F 1952
BG 14 PHN 409 Bristol L5G 73.178R Roe ? B35F 1952

Ron Mesure

04/09/15 – 07:14

It’s probably not a coincidence that First Leeds have painted a Volvo in Tilling Red since one of the current owners of CWX 671 is a very senior member of management at First Bus.
I’ve just been lent some Omnibus Society Magazines dating from 1963 and there was some comment about the fact that this bus had been entered in the London – Brighton run and some people felt it was too modern. I bet nobody would complain if it was entered now.

Nigel Turner

04/09/15 – 07:14

Having seen it at the Sheffield running day last weekend, I don’t think the first bus Gemini is the correct shade of red.

Don McKeown

05/09/15 – 07:11

Many thanks Ron M for the detailed information on the United Bristol K5Gs.

Richard Fieldhouse

05/09/15 – 07:12

It’s a while since a topic has come up on which I can comment. Here are three photographs which I took of Keighley West Yorkshire K5Gs in 1961 and 1963. I grew up in Keighley and used these K5Gs every day because they were the mainstay of the cross town routes.

wy_01

In this photo of BWY 999 (KDG21) with BWY 994 (KDG16) you can see the difference in them as they are parked side by side in Keighley depot, the ECW body on the left and the Roe on the right.

wy_02

In this photo showing the entrance to Keighley garage, the ECW bodied CWX 668 (KDG223) is next to the famous CWX 671 (KDG26). This shot was taken in October 1961 on a Sunday morning. The buses are watering up ready for going into service. It’s a pity that we can’t see the fleet number on KDG 26, and that is because it was one of the handful which retained stamped metal number plates. I am not sure of the dates when these plates were fitted to the buses, but they were not very legible and so were replaced by transfers.

wy_03

The third photo shows KDG26 just 3 months before it was withdrawn and it looks smart even then. The photo was taken 30/9/62.

David Rhodes

06/09/15 – 07:07

oooH! Nice, David, and very atmospheric! Thank you for posting.

Pete Davies

06/09/15 – 07:08

Lovely photos David and thank you for posting. The aluminium fleetnumber plates you mention were introduced in summer 1957. They were applied externally to 52 vehicles, but by the end of the year the idea had been dropped – the plates being difficult to read at a distance, as David points out. West Yorkshire had had two plates produced for every vehicle in the fleet, and it was decided that they would be fitted internally to each vehicle instead, rather than scrapping them altogether. (One was fitted in the cab and the other near the entrance door).

Brendan Smith

06/09/15 – 07:09

Was Ramsden’s “Yorkshire’s Most Popular Beer”? Ramsden’s brewery occupied the site in Halifax currently occupied by the HBoS offices. Tetley’s brewery, of Leeds, purchased Ramsden’s in 1964, the brewery was demolished in 1968 . . . the then Halifax Building Society’s head office rising from the site in 1973. History suggests perhaps that Ramsden’s might have been over-stating their popularity! Advertisements on buses provide a window into other aspects of social history, which I’m starting to appreciate more as I accelerate past middle age.

Philip Rushworth

06/09/15 – 07:10

In response to Philip Halstead, the Gardner Engine Rally is a two-day weekend event which takes place every two years at different locations on the canal network. Unfortunately there are usually few if any PSVs present. Details at //gardnerengineforum.co.uk/Events.html

Peter Williamson

16/11/19 – 13:12

Re the Philip Rushworth comment 06/09/15, advertising claims like “Most popular” or “best” (as in the Nottingham Area “Home Ales are best” probably fell foul of the Trades Description Act, as they are always open to question.

Terry Walker

Keighley – West Yorkshire – Bristol K – CWX 671 – KDG26

CWX 671

Keighley – West Yorkshire
1950
Bristol K5G
Roe L27/28R

This Roe L27/28R Bristol K5G was delivered to Keighley – West Yorkshire (as K383) in April 1950. Over sixty-one years later KDG26 is seen passing through the impressive arch of the Halifax Piece Hall when taking a very active part in the Heart of the Pennines Event in October 2011. Chassis number 47.023, body number GO3063.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

08/12/15 – 05:55

CWX 671 was in fact new in 1938 and rebodied by Roe in 1950.

Eric Bawden

08/12/15 – 13:57

This epic picture of what is still, today, a magnificent vehicle and in fine condition and brings back happy memories for me from the days in the early 1960s when I was a young conductor at WY’s Ilkley depot. At that time the staff position at Keighley was critical and we were often sent there to help out, on completely unfamiliar routes of course. On one occasion I was sent on route 19 to Hebden Bridge and, my word, what a wild and desolate, but beautiful nevertheless, route it is. In fact so desolate that some of the fare stages could only be described by “fourth milestone from Hebden Bridge” etc. and one of the stages mentions “Galstones” !! One of my most treasured possessions is my 1960 fare book which I often dip into with great pleasure. Regarding the 19 route I still shudder even now in the car at how they went on in the icy Winters – there is a “Swiss style” treacherous hill near to Hebden Bridge with minimal edge protection and a wicked sheer drop in the event of a mishap. A route not for the faint hearted and that’s for sure.

Chris Youhill

08/12/15 – 13:58

An unusual view, Les, and thanks for posting. For a more ‘traditional’ angle of viewing this specimen, please refer to my own posting of her in Fleetwood.

Pete Davies

Yorkshire Woollen District – Bristol K5G – OWT 204 – 154

Yorkshire Woollen District - Bristol K5G - OWT 204 - 154

Yorkshire Woollen District
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H28/28R (1955)

Aliens Land In Dewsbury.

Yorkshire Woollen District experienced a severe shortage of vehicles during 1969 and consequently was obliged to acquire some most untypical vehicle types which no doubt caused much displeasure to both engineering and road staff. Seen here at Savile Town depot, Dewsbury in 1970 are a selection.

From the left.

WCY 892 (160) was one of seven AEC/PRV Bridgemasters (H43/29F) that had come from South Wales Transport, this one being new in 1961.

UHN 642 (166) and WHN 54 (169) were two of six Bristol KSW6B’s with ECW H32/28R bodies, that had been new to United Automobile in 1954/55.

6162 WJ (141) was one of seven Leyland PD2/30’s with Roe H33/26RD bodies that had been new to the Sheffield ‘C’ (British Railways owned) fleet in 1960. From the same source had also come two PD2/20’s with ECW bodies, three Atlanteans and two Burlingham-bodied Leopards.

OWT 204 (154) was one of four Bristol K5G’s with ECW highbridge bodies that had been new to York West Yorkshire in 1939, then rebuilt with new chassis frames and rebodied in 1955. There was also a pair of lowbridge K6B’s from Keighley West Yorkshire.

All those in the photo were withdrawn in 1970 (6162 WJ in 1972) and sold to North’s, the dealer, at Sherburn-in-Elmet only the Bridgemaster seeing further use, being exported to Canada for use initially by a restaurant in Toronto, then by Gray Tours of Winnipeg.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

06/01/17 – 06:24

Hmm . . . varying shades of red! I’, assuming that Ks were placed in service in Tilling red, the Bridgemaster in SWT red, but the PD2 repainted into YWD red. I’ve seen a paint listing somewhere which refers to “BET red” and “BET crimson” as standard colours shared by BET companies: I’m sure YD used one of the two, and Hebble the other (and one of two was the same as Western Welsh) – I’ll have made a note somewhere, I’ll track it down.
It strikes me as odd that YWD went to the trouble of making “coach glasses” for the Bridgemaster and PD2, but not the UA Ks.

Philip Rushworth

06/01/17 – 10:51

Sorry to reveal my ignorance but what do you mean by “coach glasses”?

David Rawsthorn

06/01/17 – 10:52

I knew of the vehicle shortage at YWD but I’m surprised to find that such a variety of interesting vehicles were brought in to help. While I can understand the general displeasure among the work force, as an enthusiast driver I would have been over the moon at getting to know such vehicles.

Chris Youhill

06/01/17 – 10:53

Great photo John. Takes me back to when I started at YWD Head office at Savile Town Dewsbury in 1970. These buses made a welcome change to the MCW Regent Vs which seemed to be everywhere around Dewsbury. The Bridgemasters were christened Welsh Corgis.

J D Blackburn

07/01/17 – 06:44

David
Those glass panels with the operators names on below the rear windows of coaches, I couldn’t think of a better name for the glasses with “Yorkshire” in lieu of destination screens.

Philip Rushworth

08/01/17 – 06:21

Thanks.

David Rawsthorn

08/01/17 – 06:22

I guess the Ks, being considerably older, were considered to be “not long for this world”! I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but for me the ECW body for the K (especially the high bridge KSW version) was the nicest and best balanced half-cab double decker of all time. By contrast, I always thought the Bridgemaster was the ugliest (with apologies to those who love them!)

Stephen Ford

08/01/17 – 06:23

OWT 204 was actually the fifth ex York-West Yorkshire K5G that Yorkshire used. They started with OWT 196/7/201/5 from 1 May 1969 and numbered these 155/4/2/3 respectively. However, OWT 197 was returned to West Yorkshire (for disposal) at the end of May and replaced by OWT 204, the subject of the photo, which took on OWT 197’s fleet number of 154.
At this stage all six West Yorkshire vehicles (4 x K5Gs and 2 x K6Bs) were only on hire and carried a “West Yorkshire Road Car” legal ownership panel and an “On Hire to Yorkshire Woollen District” sticker. They also had “West Yorkshire” fleetnames (i.e. without Keighley- or York- prefixes) and full Tilling red and cream livery with black wings and wheels. This hire situation continued until 18 August 1969, when all six vehicles were sold to Yorkshire Woollen District.
In January 1970, OWT 196/201/4 had their wings and wheels painted red (ex black) and gained Yorkshire fleetnames, but remained in Tilling red and cream.
They were used mainly on YWD routes A1/2/3/4 (Thornhill-Dewsbury-Birstall), for which special short destination blinds were made for the front only; they carried no rear destination or route number blinds. They worked mainly at peak hours, but we were told at the time that they “…are extremely popular with the Yorkshire drivers, who appreciate their reliability and sturdiness. Indeed, they are practically the only double deckers at Dewsbury that do not have to be “booked off” for one fault or another!”

Trevor Leach

08/01/17 – 06:24

I have read before about the “severe vehicle shortage” in 1969 which may have been shared with others. Why was this? Do I remember that they had problems with inspections? In days of uniform fleets it is strange to read that these five “begged” buses had four different makes of engine- a Youhill delight- what was the rest of the fleet then? Leyland? At least I think West Riding- around then- replaced Wulfrunians with buses with various Gardner engines.

Joe

10/01/17 – 06:17

From memory, local newspapers referred to a shortage of spare parts.
In 1969 Yorkshire Woollen’s fleet included:
6 x circa 1950 Leyland PS2s rebodied as double-deckers by Roe in 1962-63
44 x AEC Regent Vs dating from 1958-61
9 x Leyland PD3A built 1962
14 x Albion Lowlander built 1964
22 x Daimler Fleetline built 1965-67
12 x Leyland Atlantean built 1967
Between 1959-62 Yorkshire Woollen purchased 43 AEC Reliance single-deckers, but many of these had been withdrawn by 1969.
YWD purchased 50 bus-bodied Leyland Leopards between 1962-65.
I well remember wishing to travel to school and finding that what had previously been a 70-seat Regent V-operated service was frequently a coach-seated AEC Reliance, either with 39-seat Weymann Fanfare bodywork, or ex-Maidstone & District examples with centre-entrance 37-seat Harrington coachwork.
I regret to say that things got so bad with being unable to even board a vehicle – and consequently being late for school – I finally gave up on YWD and started walking to school.

Paul H

10/01/17 – 16:49

I was aware that Hebble was experiencing severe problems with its fleet around this time (1970) but did not realise YWD shared the same problems.
The former Sheffield buses came to YWD as a result of NBC taking over the former railway-owned C fleet and distributing them to its subsidiaries, but no doubt they helped with the vehicle shortage.

Geoff Kerr

03/03/17 – 10:23

I left Dewsbury in 1968, but I don’t think that the situation was much better for 2 or 3 years before this. I well remember 41 seater Reliance/Harringtons being used on the A group of services to Thornhill where the allocation was a 70 seat Regent V every 5 minutes, with queues from the Market stop almost to the end of the road, and no chance of boarding the bus opposite the Bus Station. I am not sure that the cause was the same as 1969 but the effect certainly was. As an 18 year old I had a Saturday afternoon job with a Market Trader (I had to go to school Saturday morning), and I always walked to the Bus Station and caught one of the other services (Whitley, Grange Moor or Thornhill Edge) which took me close to home – and they were always full with frustrated A service passengers.

Malcolm Hirst

22/11/18 – 07:02

So bad was the state of the fleet in the late sixties that the road staff struck over the state of the vehicles one spokesman for the staff cited the PS rebuilds as the worst offenders Despite this they lasted well into the NBC era.

Chris Hough

24/11/18 – 06:15

The rebuilt PS2s also caused a lightening strike during the seventies. This was due to heaters not working. Sounds quite radical but it was probably the accumulation of vehicles constantly being “logged off” for this problem. I was working at Dewsbury head office at the time and remember having to walk home cursing everything.

John Blackburn

28/08/20 – 06:46

Was lucky enough to work for YWD in 1970 and doubly lucky to have missed driving a K5G up any hill in the area. 6 cylinder Gardner engined half cabs were bad enough but the thought of a 5 cylinder one only makes you think of trips you could miss with late running. Always found the ex Sheffield Leylands being a pleasure to dd felt quite tight vehicles and easy to drive. Really enjoyed the Corgi Bridgemasters unlike many drivers. Being tall the gear stick being at an angle was far easy to use in comparison to the Regent V where second gear was hard to engage due to being at the back of the bulkhead and a knuckle scraper.

Ian Gardner

15/10/22 – 06:04

I remember seeing one of the ex-Sheffield Titans freshly repainted into YWD red. Unfortunately the paint was rather thin and the Sheffield blue bands were still visible under it!

Glen Simpson

Bristol Omnibus – Bristol K5G – FAE 51 – W85

FAE 51

Bristol Omnibus
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H30/26R

I can’t recall seeing the rounded lines of the pre-war ECW highbridge double decker in OBP, so thought you might like to see FAE 51 in July 1961. The vehicle was new (blue livery?) to Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co Ltd in 1939 as C3132, survived the war and by this time had been moved to the driver training fleet as W85. It is resting in what I recall as the small coach depot in a street (probably demolished years ago) east of the main road up Old Market and near Lawrence Hill. It never seemed to be manned and occasionally had several coaches parked up.
The ECW body looked rather nicer than the BBW (Brislington Body Works) version which looked a bit sterner! See the vehicle on the left at this link.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin

19/06/17 – 07:21

The depot near Old Market Geoff refers to was called West Street. Although I grew up in Bristol and was at school there in 1961, unfortunately I’ve no recollection of it! I visited all the other depots in the city but this one escaped my notice.
I was told that West Street was a former Greyhound coach depot, actually in Trinity Street. Coaches moved from there to Lawrence Hill in the 1950s, after which it was used for coach parking during the winter season, but I don’t know when it closed completely.
A nice reminder of the pre-war ECW bodied K5Gs, the last of which survived in passenger service in Bristol until 1959.

Geoff Kerr

20/06/17 – 07:25

In 1935, a batch of nine Leyland TD5, with almost identical bodies were delivered to Tyneside. They were JR 8618/8626, and numbered TT18/22.
However, some controversy exist as to who actually built them. The design is unquestionably ECW, but some accounts have them being built “presumably subcontract or under licence” by Charles H Roe.

Ronnie Hoye

20/06/17 – 07:26

Geoff
Thanks for that further information, which allowed me to find this link: https://books.google.co.uk/books

Geoff Pullin

20/06/17 – 07:29

I have some copies of PSV Circle BOC allocations of 1958 (either side of the big City services reorganisation) which record the depot as Trinity Street rather than West Street. The date of closure is given as 24 October 1958. Prior to the reorganisation it is noted as an overnight garage for coaches and store for delicensed vehicles. It does not appear to have had its own allocation at that point in time. Subsequent to the change PSVC records that all Bristol based coaches were allocated to Lawrence Hill. At that time coach fleet numbers were mixed in with the single deck fleet number series so without going through the allocation vehicle by vehicle it is not easy to see if any were allocated anywhere else prior to the change.

Peter Cook

21/06/17 – 07:22

According to Mike Walker and the late Geoff Bruce, in “Greyhound Motors” published by the Bristol Vintage Bus Group, “the Trinity Road” coach garage was sold to the British Railways Board in 1961 for use as a road vehicle workshop, and were still standing in the early 21st century, still in use, as a car repair and exhaust centre in 2003. 96 West Street was the office address in the early years, but those premises were sold in the early 1930s. The Trinity Street premises virtually backed onto the West Street site – and from a 2014 Google image look to be in use as a carpet warehouse.

Peter Delaney

Southern Vectis – Bristol K5G – DDL 50 – 703

Southern Vectis - Bristol K5G - DDL 50 - 703

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company
1940
Bristol K5G
ECW O30/26R

In 1937 Southern Vectis took two examples of the Bristol GO5G chassis, and then ordered two examples of the later K5G design. CDL 899, which arrived in July 1939 with fleet number 702, was followed in January 1940 by DDL 50, number 703 which, like its predecessors, had ECW H30/26R bodywork. These G and K buses had the high mounted version of the Bristol radiator, whilst all later Southern Vectis K types had the PV2 style. The next K chassis to enter the Southern Vectis fleet came in 1944/45, but these were four K6A machines which were very quickly converted to Gardner 5LW power, and all subsequent K/KS/KSW deliveries had 5LW engines from new. Nos. 702 and 703 were both converted to open toppers in 1959 for operation on the scenic coastal routes, where 702 is seen on 28 August 1967. Sitting “outside” as these veterans climbed up the stiff gradient out of Ventnor was a musical experience to savour. In 1969 703 was converted into a tree lopper, and finally sold off into preservation in 1979, but 702 continued in occasional and promotional service on the Isle of Wight. Happily, both CDL 899 and DDL 50 survive.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

28/05/18 – 06:45

Living In Portsmouth for twenty years from 1956, I experienced inside and outside rides on both these buses over the years. Outside was always pleasant, both from the weather and mechanical aspects, but inside was a cacophony that assaulted the eardrums. How the drivers ever put up with the noise is beyond me. I always assumed from the vibration that the engines were mounted directly on the chassis. And why did SV ever deign to eschew 6LW engines on such a hilly island, producing vehicles that were hard work for drivers and so sluggish, even these with their roofs cut off! I’m glad that they’ve survived, though!

Chris Hebbron

29/05/18 – 06:34

My G certainly is directly mounted and is extremely noisy but vibration in the saloon is low. Fitting a 6LW in a K was not straightforward and I have done it in a KSW which had a re-design to allow fitment but not straight forward.
Think on K it would have reqd body mods.

Roger Burdett

31/05/18 – 07:32

There were GO6Gs and K6Gs in South Wales where the hilly operating terrain really demanded them. Significantly none of them had ECW bodies which were fairly standardised. Pontypridd had batches of Beadle-bodied Ls and Ks with both 5LW and 6LW engines and the bodies were significantly different due to the extra length of the 6LW. Merthyr was another regular K6G buyer whilst Cardiff (not as hilly) bought a batch of unique KW6Gs with Bruce bodies.

David Beilby

31/05/18 – 07:35

Chris H raises a question which has interested me for a long time; why Tilling companies never had any K6Gs. I may be wrong but as far as I’m aware, until the advent of the KS series, Eastern Coach Works never produced any bodywork into which the 6LW engine would fit. If any companies in the group had a requirement for 6 cylinder power, then it had to be the 6A or the 6B, the Gardner 6LW was never an option. Of course there were Bristol K6Gs, popular with some South Wales municipals and independents such as Silcox but not in Tilling fleets. Similarly, when Hants & Dorset wanted L6Gs, they had to send them to Portsmouth Aviation to be bodied because ECW couldn’t fit the engine into their standard single deck body.
I imagine the Bristol radiator could have been moved forward in the style of the Guy Arab but was it the builders who were unwilling to alter their specifications or was it Tilling HQ who decreed that operators couldn’t have 6LWs in the 1930s and 40s?

Chris Barker

01/06/18 – 05:56

It is said that one of the design constraints of the Bristol AVW engine was that it should fit in the bonnet of the K type chassis, thereby limiting its capacity to 8.1 litres. Not until 1950, when the maximum length of double deckers was increased to 27ft 6ins, did Bristol/ECW offer 6LW powered versions of the K type, the KS and KSW. In these the bulkhead was moved back to accommodate the extra length of this engine. As other correspondents have stated, the K6G/KW6G buses built for municipalities and Silcox all had bodywork from builders other than ECW to incorporate a set back bulkhead. Taking up Chris Hebbron’s point about the challenging Isle of Wight topography for the 5LW, Southern Vectis continued to specify this small engine in the wider, longer and heavier KSW type of which it had 15 examples. Only when the Lodekka appeared on the scene did Southern Vectis finally accept the 6LW.

Roger Cox

04/06/18 – 16:37

CDL 899_2

CDL 899 was used for a while on the service to the Needles from Alum Bay and is seen nearing the end of its climb. I did wonder whether the noise could be heard across the Solent!


A second photo shows the addition of route branding.

Keith Newton

07/06/18 – 05:31

Lovely photos, Keith, thx for posting them. can well understand the engine noise on this challenging route. The front design of the ECW bodywork, with its scrunched-up windscreen, has the effect of making the high radiator barely obvious. It certainly was when it was fitted with a wartime utility body!

Chris Hebbron

07/06/18 – 05:32

The exchanges over this bus are quite revealing. I have never been closely involved in the bus industry and others may be better qualified to comment. Whereas in pre nationalisation days- the aftermath of the last war- you could obtain (probably beg) a Bristol with AEC engine and Roe body, as nationalisation progressed you could have a K chassis as long as it had a Bristol or 5cyl Gardner engine, an ECW body and any colour as long as it was green, red and/or cream. Choice was restricted and was down purely to chassis length. Later on, the Lodekka even eliminated height as an option: was this, much later and from comments here, the terminal Leyland disease? Certainly the command economy may have been dismantled in the 50’s but lived on for years on the Bristol-Lowestoft axis.
Back to the bus and what a lovely example- the odd feature to me is the absence of elfansafety railings on the upper deck- just the side panels raised above the seat backs. If the bus were to topple, that was you done, or overhanging trees, crane jibs or whatever. Tiny mirrors, but then the conductor would watch behind. Happy days!

Joe

10/06/18 – 08:32

Joe, I don’t think that the product policies of Bristol CV and ECW in the 1950’s and ’60’s were similar to those of Leyland in the 1970’s. First of all, one must remember that the restrictions were placed on BCV and ECW, who were only allowed to sell to the state-owned operators; while those operators could continue to select whichever supplier they wanted – and, indeed, they did so, particularly the Scottish Bus Group, but the THC also bought Bedford coaches, and sometimes lightweight buses.
It is also generally known that BCV and ECW maintained close contact with their customers during that era, and some specialist models were also produced, in numbers that were probably not really economic – I’m thinking of the SC and SU small single deck chassis. The Lodekka was of course a solution that provided the comfort of an highbridge layout within the overall height of a lowbridge bus – with a stepless lower deck floor to boot with the F series models.
It is also worth remembering that BCV and ECW were relatively low-volume producers, and their customers did have more choice. As such, significantly wider choices of engines, etc, would probably not have been viable.
By the 1970’s Leyland had a virtual monopoly of the heavy duty bus and coach market in the UK – and, judging from contemporary reports, seemed to believe that they knew what their customers wanted. I guess that the subsequent history tells us whether that was correct – or not!

Nigel Frampton