West Yorkshire Road Car Co 1954 Bristol LS5G ECW DP41F
Quite what this Harrogate based West Yorkshire LS5G was doing in Waterhouse Street, Halifax, in the summer of 1965 I am unsure, but it seems to be a curious choice of vehicle if it was on private hire duty. No doubt our Halifax experts will come up with a suggestion. MWY 226 was delivered to West Yorkshire’s Harrogate depot in July 1954 as a dual purpose vehicle and it then carried the fleet number EUG 15 (Express Underfloor Gardner). In March 1959 its role was downgraded to that of a bus with the new fleet number SUG 15 (Single deck Underfloor Gardner) in which guise, a trifle battered, it is seen here. It was still based at Harrogate when finally withdrawn in October 1968 thereafter passing into the hands of dealers.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
18/10/19 – 05:24
Although West Yorkshire‘s LS5Gs were renumbered from EUG to SUG, and repainted in the livery shown, they retained their dual purpose seats until some time in the sixties, so would have been suitable for a private hire job, especially if it was a summer Saturday. Many years ago Crosville charged a lower rate for private hires if a dual purpose vehicle was used rather than a coach. Perhaps West Yorkshire had a similar scheme?
Don McKeown
18/10/19 – 05:25
West Yorkshire never bought any new LS pure service buses, but they did eventually re-seat many of the dual-purpose vehicles with bus seats. Sixty-eight were received as LS5G’s with ECW DP41F bodies and they came in five batches from 1953 to 1958. All of them had no rear indicators and the front indicators were always of two side-by-side windows. Each of the five batches had slight body variations and this along with West Yorkshire’s “normal” policy of declassifying/ re-seating/ livery changes gave a visually mixed and varied picture.
Stuart Emmett
20/10/19 – 06:39
I think it made economic sense to buy saloons in DP form then as they became older to reseat and down grade them to buses. Although I would love to know where all the bus seats came from to facilitate this, presumably from older, withdrawn stock. A common nick name for the “SUG”s was “SLUGS” presumably due to the limited power produced by their five pot Gardners.
Mr Anon
21/10/19 – 06:07
ECW did some of the bus seat conversions Mr. Anon = a long way to/back from Lowestoft.
Stuart Emmett
28/10/19 – 06:57
Some fascinating memories, and how good it is to see the stalwarts getting some recognition. They were put to work on anything going. I used to work as a junior traffic clerk, latterly at Low Harrogate in the mid-60s, which was where tours and private hires were dealt with. There was no discount for using DPs instead of coaches. All quotes for hires were charged at the same mileage rate and the whole fleet for the allocation to Harrogate was particularly smart because it was Head Office. You should have seen the things which were hired out when the film “Sound of Music” was showing in Leeds! We were desperately short of vehicles and reckoned we could have hired out a tow truck. Private hire and tours were based in Montpelier Parade, Harrogate, which, if I remember correctly, had been completely refurbished some time around 1964.
There was one LS which stood out from the rest and was a product of West Yorkshire’s involvement with Cave-Brown-Cave. It seemed to work OK, but I remember one journey from Bradford to Harrogate on a dreeky damp day when this SUG had for some reason been put on the 53 service (probably working its way back to the depot it always worked from). It dripped and dribbled merrily down the inside of the windscreen.
David Rhodes
29/10/19 – 05:35
LWR 431 entered service in 1953 as EUG1 with a DP41F body and was delivered in the normal “express” livery of red with cream relief and this included the windscreen. Fitted with Cave Brown Cave heating in late 1954 or early 1955 or early 1957 (and also was reported as 1/1965!!!) but this was most likely to have been concurrent with being reseated in 1957 as SUG1. The CBC system was placed in the destination box compartment, so the destination box was moved to be below the windscreen. First was a very small box, then was, as seen, in the pix from David. Reseated as SUG1 by ECW as B45F in early 1957 and with no cream on the front windscreen. Renumbered SMG1 in April 1962 when fitted for OMO. Garaged at Pateley Bridge depot from 1956 to 1968 for the routes into Harrogate, it also regularly operated in the early 1960’s one return journey on route 51 to/from Bradford that left Harrogate at 0820 hours. Withdrawn in July 1969 and then to North dealers in November 1969.
United Automobile Services 1959 Bristol MW6G ECW DP39F
These dual purpose vehicles were purchased for the North East to London route it had coach seats and maybe a bit more leg room but apart from that it was still just a bus. I think when I took this photo in 1966 they had been moved on to shorter routes and replaced with something more suited for such a long distance. Dual purpose and coaches had a different livery in the United fleet as can be seen, it was actually a moss green and cream doesn’t show well on this photo better one coming soon.
It was Olive Green and Cream.These MW vehicles were used on the Newcastle to London services being replaced by RELH coaches.They were then used on other express services such as Newcastle to Scarborough, Newcastle to Lowestoft/Great Yarmouth and Newcastle to Edinburgh/Glasgow.Some of these MWs were then repainted into the red/cream dual purpose colours and some even went to the all red with cream waistband bus livery in their latter days being used then on local bus services.
Paul
The Olive green and cream United express livery was one of the most dignified and pleasing I’ve ever enjoyed seeing. When I worked for West Yorkshire RCC we had a running board connection in Harrogate on service 76 from Tadcaster to Skipton – “connection must be made with the United car for Liverpool due from Newcastle at 3.57pm.” I can still remember with delight the sight of the beautiful ECW bodied Leyland Royal Tigers (United had nine of them) as they purred into the platform behind us – invariably spot on time.
United Automobile Services 1959 Bristol MW5G ECW B45F
This is the bus version of a 1959 Bristol MW as opposed to the dual purpose one 6 buses ago, there is quick link to it here. This bus version has a 5 cylinder Gardner engine where the DP version had a 6 cylinder engine probable because of the long routes it was used on. The bus version also seats six more people than the DP version so not as comfy but then the journeys are not as long. Coming up in the next few days is a 1965 version of the MW with a very nice radiator grill design.
Full lists of Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
One of the unsung heroes of the bus and coach world, the MW just got on with the job and did it splendidly and without much fuss. Whereas the Lodekka drew attention with its step-free lowheight layout, and the RE in bus and coach form stole the limelight with its sheer size and elegance, the MW always seemed like an unassuming, reliable workhorse plodding away in the background. They were quiet and comfortable vehicles to ride in, especially when fitted with coach seats, and their Gardner engines ensured reliability and excellent fuel economy. Who could forget seeing United’s versions parked en masse in front of Richmond’s fine castle. A fine sight and sound indeed.
Brendan Smith
I have very happy memories of countless journeys to Hull and Bridlington from Leeds in these fine vehicles of the West Yorkshire Road Car Co.Ltd. The routes , 44/45/46, were jointly operated with East Yorkshire and so one was guaranteed a treat no matter which operator’s steed was on duty at the particular time.
United Automobile Services 1965 Bristol MW6G ECW B45F
This is the Bristol MW version with what I think has a very good looking front I think they got the idea from the SUL and improved on it. In all the time I have been on the web researching other buses I have never seen a photo of a similar looking “Bristol” with any other operator, if you know of one please let me know. Other single deck buses were beginning to switch over to a single piece windscreens in 1965 as the previous “Roadliner”. I do not think ECWs ever stopped having split windscreens having seen a photo of a 1974 West Yorkshire Road Car RE which still had a split windscreen.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
This particular type of MW front was unique to United and appeared in the mid-sixties towards the end of MW production. Some of them may have been operated by Ribble, following transfer of United’s depot at Carlisle to Ribble in the early days of NBC. Regarding ECW windscreens, they remained split no doubt to minimise the expense of replacement units. My old employer (West Yorkshire Road Car) had problems with cracking on some RELL buses fitted with BET screens. They were quite costly to replace (especially the electrically heated ones), but a one-piece job would have been even more so. Even the later designs such as the Olympian and B51 coaches had split screens, as did such exotica as the bodies on tri-axle Olympian chassis for Gray Linetours in the US, and Hong Kong Citybus. Looks like the last ECW bodies were as practical as the first.
Brendan Smith
03/04/11 – 08:57
As regards BL55/56 these two buses worked out of Darlington on service Darlington/Newcastle which was number 46 and changed to 721/722 when it was NBC, as I drove these on many a shift. They were never on any other route.
Lincolnshire Road Car Company 1958 Bristol MW5G ECW DP41F
Another photo taken in Scarborough coach park of a Bristol “MW” series single decker but this time in the fleet of the Lincolnshire Road Car Company Ltd. This vehicle was classed as “dual purpose” meaning it was a bus with “nearly but not quite” a coach standard of interior. I do like the paint work on this bus the step in the cream ¾s way down the side makes a big difference. The “5G” after the “MW” in the “MW” series letters above means that this bus had a Gardner 5HLW engine which was a 5 cylinder 7.0 litre horizontal diesel engine. If the “MW” had been followed by “6G” it would of had a Gardner 6HLW engine which was a 6 cylinder 8.4 litre horizontal diesel engine. As far as I know only these two engines were available with the “MW” series, meaning no Bristol engine, if you know different let me know.
Although as you rightly state, the Bristol MW was only available with the Gardner 5HLW or 6HLW engine, one was fitted experimentally with a Bristol engine, but never operated in service as such. This was an early MW chassis bodied by ECW with a bus shell, and it was returned to Bristol Commercial Vehicles as a test-bed vehicle. The engine was in itself experimental – being a horizontal version of the BVW 8.9 litre unit and known as the BHW. In 1963, the MW6B (as it would have been known) was re-engined with a Gardner 6HLW unit. Its body was then completed to 45-seat bus layout, and it entered service with Red & White as their U1563 (228JAX). Another BHW-engined Bristol test-bed vehicle appeared in 1963 in the shape of a prototype RELH chassis fitted with an ECW coach shell. Whether this was fitted with the engine from the MW I do not know, as apparently Bristol had built several BHWs for experimental use. The engine in the RELH6B test vehicle also had a turbocharger fitted to increase power. However, the BHW engine never entered production, and later the vehicle (chassis number REX003) was given a Gardner 6HLX engine and its body fitted out to full 47-seat coach specification. It then entered service with West Yorkshire as its CRG1 (OWT241E) in 1967.
Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Crosville Motor Services 1961 Bristol MW6G ECW DP41F
Crosville at its head office at Chester and had its boundaries at St Helens (N) Newcastle under Lyme (E) Cardigan (S) and Aberdaron (W) including the Island of Anglesey that is a very big area to cover. It was possible for the company to be running a local service about 150 miles away from the head office to do this in 1963 they had 1,221 vehicles and 35 depots. The above dual purpose vehicle would have been used on some of their express routes like the X4 Liverpool to Caernarvon or one from my neck of the woods the X35 Skipton to Llandudno. The livery of Crosville coaches and dual purpose vehicles was cream and the buses was the usual Tilling green.
Whilst Crosville coaches were all-over cream, in the early and mid 60s at least, through to the NBC takeover, their dual purpose vehicles were green up the waist and cream above.
United Automobile Services 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW DP41F
Previous shots of United Automobile single deck vehicles on this site have been bus bodied or coach bodied, here we have a dual purpose bodied MW6G. United as like many other of the Tilling group had a different livery for each type of vehicle body. United’s dual purpose vehicles livery was a reversal of their bus livery of red and cream and there coach livery was cream and sage green. There are links at the foot of this copy to see shots of a bus and coach livery. If you want to know the full specification for the MW6G you can look it up on the Bristol abbreviations here. The above photograph was taken at Whitby bus station July 1965 and this bus is not exactly on a long distance run as Whitby Laithes I think is around the Hawsker area which is only 3-4 miles south of Whitby. On saying that though what a lovely run on the North Yorkshire Moors with the North Sea just to the side of you, not sure if this route includes calling at Robin Hoods Bay or not. If you know please leave a comment. Quick links to see the ‘bus’ and ‘coach’ liveries.
Whitby Laithes is just outside Whitby near Stainsacre and before you get to Hawsker. I believe there was and maybe still is a caravan site there. Fantastic picture I would like to see some Durham District (which was part of United) photos if you have any. How well the colour suits the MW. This vehicle probably used to go on longer express services in its time to London etc.
Paul
Silly little anecdote concerning United and the Whitby area. I studied at the Royal Northern College of Music and the father of one of my tutors was a United inspector in the the Whitby area. Pre RE, all Bristols had manual, many crash, gearboxes. At the top of the road to Robin Hoods Bay, at that time open to traffic, was a sign telling bus drivers to stop and engage first gear. The breaking effect of an epicyclic gearbox is not the same as a manual. The poor driver of the first semi-auto RE to go down this road found this out to his cost. He panicked and threw the thing into reverse. The result was the vehicle seized up and when the fitters unscrewed the gearbox housing, a pile of dust fell to the floor.
David Oldfield
The very steep hill from the main road to Whitby into Fylingthorpe is still used by United’s successor Arriva for their 96 Scarborough Whitby Middlesbrough service. For many years it boasted signs at the top and bottom instructing drivers to engage low gear. Halfway up the hill is a hairpin bend which really sorted out the men from the boys! Following an Olympian up the hill was a fairly hair raising business. Nowadays the route is worked by single deckers. A similar steep hill Blue Bank just outside Sleights also used to boast signs instructing United drivers to stop and engage low gear. Indeed so steep is this road it boasts a sand filled run off for the use of out of control vehicles.
Chris Hough
I seem to remember there is sand run off road at the bottom of Garrowby Hill on the York to Bridlington road.
Peter
There is one on the A59 Harrogate to Skipton road after the long decent to Bolton Abbey
Spencer
19/03/11 – 07:48
Can anyone tell me the colour scheme for a Leyland Lion operated by United Automobile in the Bishop Aukland area in the 1912/1920 era.
Brian
19/03/11 – 10:33
Peter is quite right, and the escape lane still exists at the lower end of Garrowby Hill. I once had the most unpleasant but essential task of reporting an East Yorkshire driver who, in a filthy temper all the way from Bridlington Bus Station, carried our full load in a Leyland Leopard down Garrowby Hill in top gear. As I have a very wide experience of driving Leopards I was aware of their tendency to brake fade under heavy usage and this man was very lucky indeed not to have caused a disaster. As would be expected the highly respected EYMS were very concerned and thanked me for the information – not being of a vindictive nature I hope that the man was only reprimanded but the atrocious incident could not possibly go unreported. In one of those contrasts which occur from time to time I had travelled to Bridlington that weekend on a West Yorkshire vehicle (joint services 44/45) which was driven so impeccably that I also wrote to WYRCC with a commendation – soon afterwards that driver was seen in an Inspector’s hat in Leeds !!
Chris Youhill
19/03/11 – 17:20
Chris, we have so much in common. I have this thing about criticism outweighing commendation and that the good should also and always be remarked upon. To his own surprise, I wrote a letter of commendation about a First driver in Sheffield one Christmas Eve, a few years back. The standard of his driving and his interaction with passengers (yes, not customers!!!) was superb. I also got a very nice reply from management thanking me for taking the trouble. I think this is so important.
David Oldfield
19/11/11 – 10:07
I Googled “uas colour schemes” because I’m modelling Morpeth station 1950s and needed to check something. What do I find? An old friend from my college days. I did two summer vacs as a conductor at Whitby depot in 1961 and 1962 and if that isn’t one of the coaches we used on the Leeds run then it’s their twin brother. There wasn’t a service to Whitby Laithes then. The closest would have been the 93 (I think) to Robin Hoods Bay.
Clippie
20/11/11 – 07:35
The mention of Blue Bank reminds me that when I drove for J. J. Longstaff of Mirfield I was half way up with my Bedford VAS/Plaxton when the fan belt snapped. I was very fortunate to be able to back in to a field and then coast down to Sleights to wait to be rescued.
Philip Carlton
12/12/11 – 08:28
Chris Hough refers to advisory/warning signs erected around Whitby on approaches to very steep hills. There is still one such sign at the top of Blue Bank on the approach to Sleights just outside Whitby. I have attached two photos which please use if you wish.
Whilst not the original, it serves the same purpose – it is in fact headed up as ‘TEES’, this company being the eventual successor to United in 1990 prior to the subsequent takeover by Arriva. The present sign is well obscured by a gorse bush but quite visible to the enthusiast. There used also to be signs at the bottom of the hills with the message ‘United – All clear’, but there is none at the foot of Blue Bank now. As far as I know, there are no longer any signs on Lythe Bank above Sandsend and I do not know if any signs still exist at Fylingthorpe but would think it unlikely.
John Darwent
13/12/11 – 10:55
Apart from a few odd balls that were presumably acquired as a result of takeovers, up to the formation of National Bus Company the vast majority of United’s bus and coach fleet was made up of ECW bodied Bristol’s. However, for quite some time Whitley Bay Depot had a non ECW Guy Arab, does anyone know how it came to be there?
Ronnie Hoye
13/12/11 – 11:22
Ronnie, I believe it was a Willowbrook body – possibly a rebody of a war-time model. This would almost certainly be as a result of the takeover of an independent. I believe Durham and District was set up to run independents taken over in the area by United – but Whitley Bay would be far too north to be included.
David Oldfield
13/12/11 – 15:19
I am a regular reader but have not contributed previously. Re the recent posts concerning the warning signs on Blue Bank there is a beautifully restored United Red “Engage Low Gear” sign at the foot of Ruswarp Bank in Ruswarp Village near Whitby. There is quite a few photos to be seen if you Google – “United Ruswarp Compulsory” On Lythe Bank there was an intermediate sign in both directions at the Lodge gates and I recall that for climbing vehicles it read “Drivers may build up gears” or something similar. In the down direction the first sign was for 2nd gear and the intermediate prior to the steepest 1 in 4 portion was for 1st gear. I recall others on the approach to Goathland.
Farmer G
15/12/11 – 15:41
Excellent – thank you for the link Farmer G
John Darwent
14/01/12 – 16:19
The United 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW DP41F is my colour scheme. I worked at Grange Road 1954 – 1958/9 in the drawing office. The drawings came in and we had to colour them in. The CE chose mine…. Yes Durham and District Services was set-up to run the independents United had taken over. In my time in the pump house in Central Works we had Bob I think it was who’d come in from the company at Hurworth that United/DDS had taken over. In the drawing office there was drawings of the “stop and engage low gear” signs.
Mike Hingley
04/05/12 – 08:59
Could anyone tell me please the location of United’s Scarborough depot? Is the building still there?
Goff
04/05/12 – 14:45
The Depot is still there and is now a Car Parking facility rejoicing in the name of the “Palm Court” on Vernon Road near the junction with Falconers Road. It appears to be connected to the up-market Palm Court Hotel. It is clearly shown on Google Earth.
Gordon Green
04/07/13 – 17:35
I seem to recall a double decker bus service in the 1950’s to Castle Park in Whitby, route number 96 when I was about 5 or 6. Does anyone remember this? I seem to remember that the bus went up Chub Hill, along Upgang Lane and Love Lane before heading past White Leys estate.
Mic
20/08/13 – 18:53
A K5G from Scarborough depot was loaned to Whitby Depot for the summer period in the fifties. The service was numbered 98 and ran from the Bus Station to Castle Park via Chubb Hill, John Street, Promenade, Argyle Road, White Point, Love Lane and Stakesby Road. The Destination blind permanently showed “Castle Park”, and the lower blind “White Point The Spa 98. Around 1960 this service was linked with the 99 from the Bus Station to St. Peter’s Road, formerly operated by Heather Motor Services. The resulting cross town service was numbered 96, and was operated by two single-deckers, at first LS5G’s, later MW’s. By the early seventies, Whitby Depot had a single RESL6G, 2862, which was used on the 96 day after day, usually in partnership with an LH; I once overheard a driver stating that Whitby’s manager had tried to get a second RE but had been refused.
Don McKeown
21/08/13 – 06:55
Seeing the earlier post of signs on Blue Bank has got me worried. If the gorse bush has been cut back to reveal the TEES sign saying ‘Stop, Engage 2nd gear Retain to next sign’ and the All Clear sign at the bottom has been removed, what is happening out on the road ? Are there dozens of buses winding their way around North Yorkshire in 2nd gear looking in vain for the All Clear sign ? I sincerely hope not!
Petras409
25/08/13 – 06:33
In Don McK’s posting, he mentions Heather Motor Services at Whitby. I recall that on holiday as a very small boy in the late 40’S, I saw what may well have been a Bedford OB or similar in cream with red lining belonging to Moordale Coaches maybe. I have never been able to find a reference to this firm or where they ran from. Don, do you have any information please? Heather MS is well documented though.
John Darwent
29/08/13 – 06:29
Sorry John, I have no recollection of Moordale coaches in the Whitby area, although I have heard the name; was it a company further north, perhaps in County Durham? Farmer G mentions the restored sign at Ruswarp; this is not strictly accurate, the “United” fleetname at the head of the board has a large U and D, with the NITE smaller and underlined. In reality, only the U was in the larger print with five letters underlined. Further on along the 91 (Malton route) there were a fourth set of gearchanging signs at the “Devil’s Elbow”, between the Saltergate Inn and the Hole of Horcum. Service 94 to Whitby Laithes was a summer only service which survived into the late sixties. It was taken over from Heather Motor Services, along with the 99 St. Peters Road) and 93 (Fylingthorpe)on 29th March 1953. The story of Heather is told in a book by Philip Battersby, published by United Enthusiasts Club in 2005.
Don McKeown
29/08/13 – 06:31
Ah – distant memories of what were my first ever seaside Summer Holidays spent in Whitby. Obviously I’m not the only one on this site to spend holidays there in the late 40’s and early 50’s. On the second and third of those holidays we stayed at the Oxford Hotel opposite the Spa and the highlight for me was the regular passage of the Castle Park bus. Isn’t it funny how the ‘old’ registration numbers stick in your mind and here is one – CHN 105 passing by on a regular basis all day. For years I recalled it as a K5G with a modern post war body but it was only when I found a copy of the Prestige book on United that I found a photo by G H F Atkins of its sister CHN 106 and discovered that it was not what it first seemed to be. In fact it was a GO5G originally fitted with an odd ball ECW body (14 ft 3in height) but with a lowbridge layout. They were rebodied in 1949 with standard ECW lowbridge bodies which had to be modified to fit the GO5G chassis. Could the cream/red Bedford OB have been one of Howards’s Tours who used to load in front of the Esplanade Gardens for their excursions ??
Gordon Green
03/09/13 – 16:30
Gordon, I have looked at an image of a Howards’ OB and the colours suggest you may well be correct with your suggestion.I cannot remember whether Howards had any stage services but seem to think that the “phantom” Moordale /Moorsholm /Moorview or whatever Coaches served the Esk Valley area such as Danby and Lealholm. Possibly an ex-Howards OB retaining the paint scheme but with new owner – who knows?
John Darwent
16/09/13 – 06:31
I’ve just noticed Ronnie’s query from December 2011 (!) about a non-ECW Guy ‘decker at Whitley Bay. David is quite right in attributing it to the formation of DDS. It was GGH1 (GHN 69), a Guy Arab III which had been ordered by Darlington Triumph, one of the constituent companies – along with ABC and Express – of DDS. Its chassis was delivered to DDS in May 1951 and originally intended to operate for them, but was actually ‘transferred’ to United who had it bodied by Willowbrook as a highbridge 58-seater. It entered service in June 1952 at Carlisle depot but, later, found its way to Whitley Bay where it was often to be found on the 5 and 17 services and where, I believe, it ended its days.
Alan R Hall
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
28/05/14 – 07:46
Regarding the question by John Darwent and others above. Moordale Bus services Ltd who ran in the Whitby area. The company was actually based in Newcastle and survived in various forms until takeover by British Bus in the 1990s. They also had a garage at Danby and ran; Loftus-Liverton Mines-Liverton Village-Moorsholm, Castleton-Danby-Lealholm-Ugthorpe-Sandsend-Whitby, Loftus-Liverton-Danby-Lealholm-Glaisdale, Danby-Fryup Dale (Sats only) Even in the the post-war traffic boom these must have been marginal and the whole operation was abandoned in 1954. Just Loftus-Liverton was replaced, by Saltburn Motor Services, and even then I believe there was a gap before this started.
Phil Drake
28/05/14 – 16:03
Thanks for that Phil. Very enlightening.
John Darwent
07/06/14 – 08:24
I have been in the Whitby area this week and have found another of the old (but badged ‘Tees’) ‘compulsory stop engage 1st gear’ signs at the foot of Saltersgate Bank on the A169 Whitby Pickering road. This is opposite the sadly closed Saltersgate Inn where the peat fire was aid to have been burning for nearly 300 years. There used to be one at the top for descending vehicles but I could not see this as I drove past. I wonder if Yorkshire Coastliner observe the spirit of the old signs ?
West Yorkshire Road Car Company 1964 Bristol MW6G ECW DP41F
Originally numbered SMG38, this vehicle became 1146 in West Yorkshire’s 1971 renumbering programme. It was one of twenty-six MW6G buses delivered to WY in 1963/64 – these being the first new single-decker WY buses for some time. For quite a few years previously, the Company had been able to cascade its mid-life dual-purpose vehicles for stage carriage use – repainting them red and cream in the process. The MW6G buses were originally delivered as B45F, but in 1971, SMG33-38 were reseated with high-backed seats from withdrawn LS dual-purpose vehicles. Unusually, the reseated batch retained bus livery, rather than receiving WY’s then dual-purpose/express livery of cream with a red band. As can be seen, ‘T-type’ destination indicators were fitted at the front, but no displays were fitted at the rear. The vehicles sported full-depth rear windows in their nicely rounded domes. They were quiet and comfortable buses to ride in, whether coach or bus seated, not to mention being very reliable and economical workhorses.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith
08/09/12 – 07:45
There are so many West Yorkshire experts who visit this site that one needs to be very careful about one’s facts. Someone may know otherwise, but my recollection is that WY fitted high back seats as a matter of course in their early MWs, designated SUGs. I remember them well on route 43, Leeds to Scarborough, always in standard livery. ‘SUG’ was explained to me in conductors’ training school as ‘Single, Underslung Gardner’. ‘SMG’ – ‘Single, Maximum Capacity Gardner’ – came later, I thought, as the company started to fit bus seats. Originally, SUGs had destination indicators made up of the two lower sections of ECW’s then standard three-part screens. The change to ‘T-type’ screens embraced all stage carriage vehicles, in the mid-1960’s. It’s a pity that the screen in this picture is sloppy; even if the screen didn’t have the right destination, (which could occasionally happen), the driver could, I think, have made sure the route number was displayed clearly.
Roy Burke
08/09/12 – 07:46
I agree entirely with Brendan about such vehicles being quiet and comfortable to travel in. I had many rides on those of Midland General which were all of the 6G type and always found them so. I’ve never had any experience of the MW5G, I suspect the ride may have been rather different. David O remarks elsewhere about the popularity of the Guy Arab UF/LUF for coaching work. I too, never had any experience of these but I’ve always imagined that there couldn’t have been much difference between them and the MW.
Chris Barker
09/09/12 – 08:02
West Yorkshire vehicles were regular visitors to Blackpool on the “Joint Services” pool and also to Morecambe – alias British West Bradford – on the X88 service from Leeds. We could and did get anything that was available. The “class” letters seem to have gone from most of the former Tilling group fleets at about the same time, though the Crosville arrangement was adopted by Potteries. A pleasant enough view, but the indicator display would be of no use at all to a stranger. Thanks for sharing, Brendan.
Pete Davies
09/09/12 – 08:02
West Riding were a somewhat surprising recipient of West Yorkshire 1125 825 BWY which was new to West Yorkshire in 1963 as SMG17 in 1974. It lasted with West Riding until 1975 when it was scrapped.
Chris Hough
09/09/12 – 08:04
You are indeed right Roy, that West Yorkshire’s earlier deliveries of MWs (MW5Gs) with bus outline bodywork were fitted with high-backed coach seats. They were classed ‘EUG’ when new, denoting Express Underfloor Gardner, as were the earlier batches of LS5Gs, also with bus shells and coach seats. In later life many were demoted to ‘SUG’ status, for use mainly on stage-carriage work, gaining more red to their livery, but retaining coach seats. They would no doubt have been comfortable machines to ride in on the Leeds to Scarborough run, but many of us did wonder why WY continued to specify 5-pot rather than 6-pot Gardner engines for it’s longer-distance vehicles. It must have taken an age to reach Scarborough, Blackpool or Middlesbrough from the heart of the West Riding. (Could that be the reason for fitting half a dozen of the more powerful MW6G buses with 41 high-backed seats later on?). Some of the SUGs were fitted out for “one man” operation in later life, and received 45 bus seats in the process. They were re-classified SMG at the same time, the ‘M’ as Roy says, denoting Maximum seating capacity, and described as such in Ian Allan’s BBF No9. I too have heard this quoted by West Yorkshire staff, but have heard other staff say that ‘M’ meant the bus was suitable for one Man operation. Both descriptions appeared to be very relevant to the buses concerned, but as a skinny apprentice at the time, I did not wish to provoke an argument with either party, and came to the conclusion that maybe they were both right!
Brendan Smith
09/09/12 – 08:03
Where was this picture taken Brendan? Judging by the route number, could it have been York, Harrogate or possibly Keighley? As we’ve seen on other postings, it was not uncommon to have to ride many miles on express services in bus seats, but to have this DP for a local suburban estate run must have been delightful!
Paul Haywood
10/09/12 – 06:56
Paul and Brendan – my trusty 1960 fare table book (seriously speaking one of my most treasured possessions) may hold the answer to this query. At least in 1960 there was no service 9A in Harrogate or Keighley, but in York services 9/9A ran between Clifton and Tang Hall Lane. Our lovely meerkat friend from TV would no doubt click his teeth and remark “seeemples.”
Chris Youhill
10/09/12 – 06:58
There are other mysteries here! I know the camera can lie (or the process can) but that’s not Poppy Red, and I’m not sure about the side band- should be a sort of grey-white and yet seems to match the presumably original window surrounds- which would be self-colour cream, I imagine: yet the grey wheels are there and NBC fleetname. As to where… looks too warm for Keighley: has a look of east Leeds about it
Joe
10/09/12 – 06:59
I remember seeing the first MWs entering service in Bristol in February 1958. These had AHY registrations and ugly flat backs. The second (DAE) series had the more rounded style and I suppose other early operators of the type had bodywork which went through the same design change.
Geoff Kerr
11/09/12 – 06:52
We really need Brendan to tell us where this photo was taken to be sure of the location. In 1960, as Chris says, there was certainly a service 9/9A in York, but it was invariably a double-decker route in those days. I worked it many times as a conductor; a very busy urban route. The picture dates from NBC days – at least 9 or 10 years later – by which time things might have changed, of course. If the picture is indeed in York, things must have changed a lot, since the very idea of OMO on the Clifton/Tang Hall Lane service in the mid-1960’s would have been thought laughable. In Tilling days, York had only one single deck city service, (Leeman Road/Hull Road, route 7), necessitated by a low bridge, operated in my time with L5Gs, (YSGs), later replaced with SUs, (YSMAs). There were then very few OMO routes, and all of them, as you’d expect, were light semi-rural services.
Roy Burke
11/09/12 – 06:55
Well Chris- that looked like a York street light, too. Did NBC remove the “York”, and have West Yorkshire in East Yorkshire (nearly?) …or is this bus out of area, which explains the blinds?
I should have added that its not West Yorkshire red either which was much redder? This is almost maroon.
Joe
11/09/12 – 06:58
Sorry Joe but this is not east Leeds West Yorkshire had no service numbers as low as that in the Leeds area all services in east Leeds were either throughs to York and points east or at a push to places like Barwick Scoles and other dormatory villages which were in the West Riding until 1974 West Yorkshire applied NBC fleet names to standard Tilling red but often painted the cream band on both saloons and deckers.
Chris Hough
11/09/12 – 07:01
Apologies for being a little slow in responding to the above comments folks, but I’m making preparations for my ‘jollies’ and have been ‘sidetracked’ away from OB Photos several times! Paul, Chris Y and Joe, sorry to keep you in suspense as a result, but the photo was taken on Woodfield Road, Harrogate. The vehicle was on the newly-introduced 9A Bus Station – Dene Park route, serving a new estate of low-rise flats for older people. From what I can recall, 1146 had been recently transferred from I think, Leeds depot, and presumably had not yet received a blind showing Dene Park, which would go some way in explaining the unhelpful (and slovenly) route display. (There is also what appears to be a maroon Leeds depot allocation disc in front of the fleet number, rather than a green Harrogate one). Joe, your comment on the livery has me puzzled too. I’m not sure whether the processing (AGFA slide) has made the poppy red look like Tilling red, or whether the bus was still wearing Tilling red, with NBC grey wheels, white band and fleetnames applied. Some WY depots did apply white bands and fleetnames to vehicles still in Tilling red, if the paintwork was still sound, pending a full repaint into poppy red at a later date. I smiled at your comment that the view looked too warm for Keighley.
Brendan Smith
12/09/12 – 07:11
Thanks for settling this teaser for us Brendan – I had based my wild assumption of the wrong year of course, and on the pretty unlikely possibility of a vehicle transfer or loan to York – and my meerkat informant has received one week’s notice !!
Chris Youhill
12/09/12 – 07:11
Brendan, as a Keighley postcoder (although living just over the border into North Yorkshire), I must defend the place! Emily Bronte would have had difficulty selling “Wuthering Heights” with the title “Sunny Hills”! When we think of famous people with “sunny dispositions” we automatically think of Denis Healey, Eric Pickles, and Alastair Campbell who were all born in Keighley! There’s nothing wrong with good old fashioned gloom and misery. Mark my words, no good will come from sunshine, it only attracts the wasps!
Paul Haywood
13/09/12 – 06:59
Thanks for settling the mystery, Brendan. I have several views of buses still in Tilling green or red but with NBC style fleetname. A Southern Vectis bus in Southampton (on loan to Hants & Dorset and with the latter’s fleet number – don’t fret, boys, I’ll submit it for consideration in a week or two!) has Tilling green, NBC fleetname and the white stripe.
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW C39F
This Bristol MW with, as it was called then, the “New Look” design was new to Hants & Dorset as their fleet number 887 in June 1962. In 1963 the batch (882 – 887) were down seated to C30F for extended tours, but reverted to C39F in 1968. In the first view, she has been downgraded to local bus work, as DP41F and is in special livery for the RED FUNNEL FERRIES contract and is seen at Southampton Central Station in April 1974. Her sister, 7122 LJ, was in BRITISH RAIL SEASPEED livery at the same time, but my view of the sister is not suitable for publication.
Copyright Pete Davies
In the second view of 7123 LJ, the relegation to service bus duty is complete, having been repainted in NBC poppy red livery with white stripe in 1975. She’s in the yard of Southampton depot in January 1976. In both views, she has the fleet number 1833 but for a brief time in 1971 she had the fleet number 1001.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
14/12/12 – 07:21
Never thought NBC poppy red could be an improvement on another livery but…..
Eric Bawden
14/12/12 – 07:22
When I photographed sister vehicle 1831 in 1973 on local service at Winchester, she was still fitted with high back seats. I’m amused by the fact that in the upper view, 1833 retains wheel trims, but has been relegated to bus seating.
Alan Murray-Rust
14/12/12 – 08:50
Indeed, Eric! I have vague memories that Southern Vectis had a vehicle in similar livery, for the Cowes to Newport element of this service, though I never photographed it. The service connected with the express trains from Waterloo and, in later years, had the service number 91, to match the train headcode! Different people have operated the link over the years, including Marchwood Motorways (using a Ford with Duple coach body and special livery) and Southampton Citybus (both before and after they sold out to First) Current operation is called “City Link” and the Unilink version of Solent Blue Line runs it.
Pete Davies
14/12/12 – 10:44
I like to think that even me, colour-blind, would not have come up with such a hideous range of colours and patterns as the poor suffering bus has in the top photo. Sun glasses might have helped! I always liked the ‘New Look’.
Chris Hebbron
14/12/12 – 16:26
Just a different way of applying poppy and white, Mr H!!!
Pete Davies
15/12/12 – 12:00
Mansfield District had some of these type vehicles, good looking coaches when new, however, the downgrade to DP services saw the addition of the linen box grafted onto the front dome, it spoilt ’em though at least Mansfield fully removed the original two boxes above the headlights.
Berisford Jones
15/12/12 – 14:32
Berisford, I’m not sure what happened to this batch with Hants & Dorset, but most of the H&D coaches just had the box, illuminated, with the lettering HANTS & DORSET under the driver and HOLIDAY TOURS in the other one. Some of the RE coaches, down to NBC DP livery, had the HOLI removed. Yes, removal of the box would probably have made the outline better!
Pete Davies
15/12/12 – 16:21
I like the design of these vehicles – I don’t like the destination box. For comparison take a look at a similar Royal Blue coach at this link which doesn’t have such a box
Ken Jones
16/12/12 – 11:00
Yes, Ken, same here! So far as I know, Royal Blue coaches weren’t downgraded to DP or bus work, so they never needed that box in the dome.
Pete Davies
16/12/12 – 12:14
United had some of these with a different front panel and destination layout. Drab olive green and cream sounds hideous for a coach livery, but anyone who has ever seen one of United’s coaches will tell you, it works, and these were no exception.
Ronnie Hoye
16/12/12 – 14:44
Although some of the Royal Blue MW vehicles like EDV 502D had Western National branding instead of Royal Blue they never [thank goodness] received these horrible destination boxes. There’s a picture at this link showing ENOC with an equally horrible destination box
Ken Jones
16/12/12 – 17:31
The later vehicles with the deeper windscreens, such as the one in the link Ken posted never looked right to my eyes and I agree Ken, that thin profile linen display box looks very wrong. Not one of ECW’s best at all.
Berisford Jones
17/12/12 – 08:09
You are spot-on with your comments about the United olive green and cream livery Ronnie. It doesn’t sound great on paper, but ‘in the metal’ it had a touch of class. United’s Plaxton-bodied Bristol REMHs brought in a simpler more up to date style later on, yet they still looked stunning. They even retained the scroll-type fleet names.
Brendan Smith
17/12/12 – 13:04
Brendan, going off the subject slightly, I know a couple of United L’s have survived into preservation ‘I believe one is in Durham District livery’ but do you know of any DP versions in the reverse livery?
Ronnie Hoye
17/12/12 – 16:39
The full list of Bristol L survivors can be found at www.bristolsu.co.uk/ but I don’t think there is an United vehicle in reverse livery. Crosville KFM 893 is in reversed livery. HHN 202 is preserved in Durham District livery as seen at www.sct61.org.uk/
Ken Jones
19/12/12 – 07:25
I noted above that I had vague memories of a Southern Vectis vehicle in the same special livery. I’ve found it, in a bought slide from Omnicolour. If you think this is bad, just consider a Bristol FS (VDL 844 to be precise!) then go and lie down in a darkened room until you recover.
Pete Davies
19/12/12 – 13:42
On the same link Ken Jones mentions above, you will find a picture of one of these ‘7014 HN’ plus one or two other examples of United coaches, in particular is a 1964 Leyland Loepard L2 with Plaxton Panorama body, it became part of United’s fleet when they acquired Wilkinson of Spennymoor in 1968, but they all prove the point that quiet restraint is often more dignified than ‘flash and brash’
Ronnie Hoye
20/12/12 – 07:54
Ronnie, sorry but I don’t know if there is a United Bristol L preserved in DP livery. The only ones I’m familiar with are in bus livery – HHN 202 (Durham District green) and two red LS – rear entrance LHN 823 and front entrance LHN 860. The latter vehicle made a touching appearance at Charlie Bullock’s funeral in Scarborough in August, complementing Charlie’s United K5G towing wagon FHN 923, which provided his ‘personal transport’ for the proceedings.
Brendan Smith
20/12/12 – 09:45
Ronnie, I’ve just been reading through comments related to United Auto Bristol LL6B NHN 128 on this splendid website, which should interest you. Present owner David Hudson comments that this vehicle is awaiting restoration following fire damage. He also states that the vehicle was converted to DP configuration in 1953, so maybe you could yet see a United L-type in reversed livery.
Brendan Smith
20/12/12 – 16:04
Thanks for that, Brendan, if NHN 128 were to be restored as a DP that ‘length and engine size apart’ would that make a full full set of L’s as far as United are concerned? A front and rear entrance in red, a reverse livery DP and a Green Durham District, or did D/D have DP’s as well?
Western National Omnibus Co Ltd 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW C39F
This is a Bristol MW6G from 1962 with second style MW ECW C39F body, and was hired from Western National to London Country Bus Services Limited in 1975 to 1977. In 2000 it was in service with Memory Lane Vintage Omnibus Services. It has been owned by Bob & Philip White since 2008 and is seen at many rallies and often participates in the annual Royal Blue run. It is preserved as Western National 2270, and was photographed leaving Simonsbath in Somerset on 3/7/10 during that years Royal Blue event. The picture was taken from the proceeding vehicle EDV 502D a Bristol MW6G with the third style C39F ECW bodywork.
The 2013 Royal Blue run will take place on Friday 21st June to Sunday 23rd June and include Margate to Bournemouth. More details are on line at www.tvagwot.org.uk/events.htm
You never fail to Excel. Another excellent capture.
Alan Coulson
23/02/13 – 13:42
Well up to standard, Ken. Keep going!
Pete Davies
04/03/13 – 07:57
I used to drive 2270 on service out of Royal Blue depot in Portsmouth. Didn’t like her to drive. Also operated a daily service from Portsmouth to Ilfracombe in the 70,s which to us through Simonsbath and over Exmoor but we always had a MW ideal for the bends at Watersmeet which was further on.
Jim Stapleton
06/03/13 – 10:27
WN 2270 also recorded as on loan to Alder Valley during June and July 1975.
Mac Head
21/04/13 – 07:52
Just been catching up on the ITV programme “Endeavour” from 14th April and found this vehicle in it plus Hants and Dorset FEL 951C plus Oxford City Double Decker – very good
Ken Jones
27/04/13 – 07:48
Initial invites and details about the 2013 Royal Blue run have just been released from the organisers as follows.
“This year we are heading east. The South Coast Express from Margate to Bournemouth was jointly operated by Royal Blue, East Kent and Southdown. Royal Blue also operated joint services between Bournemouth and Kent with Maidstone & District and therefore we would like invite owners of vehicles from these companies to join us in this year’s run. In the heyday of the South Coast Express through services from Margate to Bournemouth took around 12 hours for the complete journey. In today’s traffic conditions this would take significantly longer and therefore the plan is as follows:
Day 1 (Friday 21 June) Victoria Coach Station (we have permission to be in VCS from about 10.30 to 11.00 when there will also be an unveiling of a Transport Trust “Red Wheel”) – Peckham – Lewisham – Sidcup – Maidstone – Canterbury – Margate – Ramsgate
Entrants will be welcome from Royal Blue, Southdown, East Kent, Maidstone & District and Associated Motorways companies and any vehicles which might have run “on-hire” to the main operators. Entrants can join in for any part or all of the run over the three days.”
Ken Jones
21/05/13 – 15:20
Well Jim, you and me both! According to my “lists”(!) I drove her a few times out of Bournemouth (Rutland Road) on Associated Motorways work. Not as nice to drive as the later RELHs!
Andy McClelland
22/06/13 – 07:52
Yes Andy 2270 was not so nice to drive but I’m sure it was because it didn’t like me! And trying to change the blind with your T key was something else!!. At least when it was hot one could drive with the door open.
