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Maidstone & District Selected Memories of an Engineer

Maidstone & District looked a bit of a conundrum from outside in 1970 – very ‘heritage’ livery, generally looking smart but lots of modern vehicles: large volume orders for early Atlanteans, Nimbus, Fleetlines, Panthers, single deck Fleetlines… Inside, it continued – a very heritage HQ at Knightrider House and depressingly ‘tram-age’ maintenance facilities. I arrived as Assistant Engineer by train in the snow on January 1, 1970 and inherited a Hillman Hunter – a nippy car if you could get it started – this one was particularly perverse! I was met by Chief Engineer Vin Owen, who was still wondering why he had moved from the modern facilities at the orderly Trent company. Vin appeared to be in conflict with General Manager Arthur J White from the start. I suspect on the basis that huge investment in vehicles had not been matched with updating of routine maintenance facilities and that Area Managers were interfering with basic engineering decisions! Vin Owen had a simple view of buildings – if it is not required, knock it down and it won’t need maintenance. I missed his great clearance of tram paraphernalia from Sheerness depot. These didn’t help his relationship with the GM nor when he was travelling in Vin’s Austin Westminster car and the passenger door opened going around a bend!
The work study incentive scheme, to enable increases in wages which were only allowed by government if productivity increased (George Osbourne, must have noticed this!), was being implemented root and branch with Jim McLellan of PA Consultants and our Bill Young leading a competent and enthusiastic team. Cleaning was categorised into different tasks and frequencies. A new technical assistant, John Waters, had been tasked with writing revised (if there was one already) maintenance inspection and servicing sheets, making sure that modern equipment was properly catered for and the appropriate frequencies chosen and each written in a natural order of work. This was of course in advance of NBC getting round to doing the same thing. As depot after depot was dealt with, Vin wrote out new rosters himself, and talked each through without too much difficulty – wiping away old Spanish customs as he went. These led to interesting situations: At Silverhill (Hastings ‘trolleymen’), the Area Manager wanted to know who would drive the gypsum mine staff night bus as Vin had removed the night cleaner who had done it in the past; and at Luton (Chatham) the Assistant General Manager (on his run down to retirement) was sent to resolve a difficulty and commented that any fool can save money by not doing a job, but if the job needed doing it wasn’t a saving! A quote I often remembered in later years!
Vin managed to get new workshops built at Chatham and Maidstone and eventually Area Engineers with equal status to Area Managers. At the rebuilt Chatham (‘Luton’) garage, we installed the first automated chassis wash that I had seen – it did a reasonable, and certainly fast, job but needed a bit of human tweaking and replacement of the rubber screw pump innards but soon cleaned the Medway vehicles much more frequently than the previous annual clean. Electrics took a bit of a beating at first but eventually vulnerable areas were identified and protected. There was also a straight service lane incorporating Cyclone interior cleaning which worked well but not until I had spent a lot of late night hours resolving problems!
An interesting aspect of my position was that the Works Manager had previously been the company’s Assistant Engineer and thus appeared to outrank me and being somewhat naive and quiet of character I still managed to find ways around! When Douig Awde retried he was replaced by another ex Assistant Engineer – John Linham from East Kent!
All double deckers going through overhaul at Postley Works were being converted for one man operation. This supply rate didn’t meet traffic requirements, so Vin sorted out a swift conversion incorporating a bit of plastic pipe as part of the periscope arrangement and fitment of fareboxes for service 1 to be converted at short notice. He had to argue with the certifying officer that this arrangement was not temporary and met the legal regulations even if not to bodybuilders’ high finish.
I was named by one shop steward as the company’s highest paid critic, because after my visit to Silverhill, someone was usually hauled in and given a rollicking by the Depot Engineer (an electrician by trade from Trolleybus days) about a mechanical problem reported by central works!
Silverhill had a large percentage of the Strachans bodied Panthers and unknown to head office had started stripping out the ceiling and roof panels because they were moving so much that black aluminium dust was to be found everywhere. The Willowbrook bodied Panthers seemed to stay together. So Vin called in Willowbrook to suggest a structural repair as clearly they would loosen again. A programme of strengthening the roof hoops with externally fitted curved angles began. I later discovered when at Ribble that their first Panther chassis was proclaimed to be frighteningly flexible, especially after good operating experience of Bristol REs and it remained the only sample in the fleet!

Random memories:

  • The cleaner who cleaned staff cars with a stiff floor broom.
  • Trying yellow vertical dip headlight bulbs on a tour coach on the M2 one night and being frightened when unable to see not a lot – idea dropped!
  • Calling in to say I can’t start my Hunter!
  • Wondering what else can go wrong at Tunbridge Wells.
  • Wondering how so many vehicles are kept going so well at Tonbridge with sparse facilities.
  • Setting up a monthly fleet allocation list incorporating vehicle types and movements. This was the first formal document indicating who was responsible for maintaining each vehicle!
  • Wondering why Gillingham engineer Harry Pettican happily took engine packs out of Atlanteans as a routine at annual service when nobody else did or could!
  • Introducing a central tyre maintenance workshop service with Dunlop. The biggest unexpected problem was to find that many vehicles already had wheels of the wrong offset fitted randomly! I learned a lot about wheels in a very short time and ordered up stocks of new wheels of different types to give adequate serviced spares at each depot.
  • Organising that every depot had at least one long chassis single deck with rear towing eyes so they could tow in failed vehicles.
  • George MacKay (what’s this F****** stuff?) retired NBC Director lived at Tunbridge Wells and we ‘looked after’ his company car – not a demanding task I’m pleased to say!
  • Sorting out by phone, with Leyland France, a failed Leopard starter in eastern France. On return the works overhauled the starter and refitted it and it failed again on the next trip. Somehow I got Leyland to do the job again!

Watching the one-for-one swop of our 3 year-old Fleetline single deckers for Northern General double decks late in 1972 – several, maybe many, of the red buses went into service next morning in Medway towns. There were dark red buses with the full gold M&D scroll and some with the first NBC reflected N style logo and white company name. This was in complete contrast to Ribble where vehicles were either in full former Ribble colours and logos or full NBC poppy-red scheme – no mixing!
This swop coincided with the NBC new livery. Vin had previously wanted to get rid of the old fashioned M&D scroll and had one or two modern versions done by Postley Works, but they were not approved!
I learned that the old M&D scroll includes the word THE, one inch high, so that it can act as the formal legal company name, with only the address in the bottom left hand corner side panel!
Livery change kicked off when the Leyland National order forms asked which standard colour we wanted – Vin ticked light green, which was wrong for the GM! But soon after we were designated to be a NBC green company and the scroll went! I didn’t see Leyland Nationals arrive at Maidstone. When I got to Ribble they were rolling in in dark red, but as no agreement had been reached about operating one man vehicles with over 45 seats they were parked up and repainted poppy red before entering service.
There were times when Vin got more depressed and I had to say to him, if he hadn’t stirred a new topic up he could have rested! – but he kept going. My dealings with the General Manager were difficult. On one occasion, I think I had three representatives of a supplier in my tiny office and the ancient (heritage?) internal phone buzzed indicating it was the GM and I answered it “Good Morning”. To the room’s embarrassment I received the explosive response “Good morning what?”. Determined in the circumstances not to call him “Sir”, I added “Mr White”. At first, whenever Vin left Head Office, the GM would phone me and ask me to go to his office where he would put to me Vin’s latest (‘unacceptable’) ideas and ask my opinion. I supported Vin’s line on such occasions! Arthur White accepted early retirement for health reasons on June 30 1972 and retired to his previous Devon General haunts where he lived for many years! He was succeeded by Len Higgins who was also responsible for East Kent. Vin felt less happy as the amalgamation of the companies proceeded and was no doubt delighted to return north in January 1975 to United at Darlington.
I had decided to buy a house before prices rocketted too high and moved in to a newly completed house on August 4,1972. On October 6, 1972 I put it on the market, gaining £1,000 on the original £10,000 price! In the meantime I had seen the internal advert for Assistant Chief Engineer at Ribble and had applied for it without much energy or forethought. A week or so after, Vin looked somewhat down at mouth and said ‘I think you’ll get the Ribble job’. He had started with Ribble, and learned a lot at the hands of Harry Tennant their Chief Engineer, who 25 years later was still in post! I started on November 1, 1972 – another great change for me!

Geoff Pullin
01/2016

11/01/16 – 16:45

That’s a great article – thanks Geoff for writing it. So many things ring true for me as Technical Assistant at PMT around the same time. The main difference was that you could rarely call the average PMT bus ‘smart’! I remember an occasion when the Chief Engineer was on holiday and one Saturday morning the Assistant Engineer and I were summoned to the General Manager’s office to ‘discuss’ maintenance problems. That Gentleman – PH Wyke-Smith ranted and raved with plenty of expletives at the pair of us for fully 50 minutes – then followed 10 minutes of useful discussion on the problems we faced and possible solutions.
I moved onwards just before Leyland Nationals and NBC Corporate liveries appeared in fact the last new buses in my time were three dual purpose Bristol REs in full PMT dual purpose livery and they looked superb.
The two main problems in my time at PMT were the large fleet of Daimler Roadliners and the even larger fleet of early PDR1 Atlanteans with major corrosion and wiring issues. The significant collection of AEC Reliance 470s with constant head gasket and liner seal problems didn’t help what was already a monumental task to maintain service. Thanks again Geoff, it’s so important that these personal reminiscences are put down as a record.

Ian Wild

12/01/16 – 05:52

Thanks Ian. What I recall, like NGT, PMT was not a popular place to be promoted to! I know that Harry Tennant, Chief Engineer at Ribble was offered the GMs job and turned it down!
When at Maidstone, I can recall a Roadliner lying in the corner at Maidstone depot and the engine being changed, by a PMT crew, who clearly were well versed in the job.
I met PH Wyke-Smith a few times. When he was GM at Crosville, after PMT, and I was at Ribble as Asst CE, he came to see Harry Tennant, to update himself on engineering matters as he had been offered the NBC Engineering Director’s role and was “out of touch”! I think it was PHWS who introduced Regional Chief Engineers, thus releasing the chief engineerships of Ribble, United and Western National all at the same time, not that it did me any good!

Geoff Pullin

14/01/16 – 06:09

Geoff, you most certainly would have had a PMT Roadliner coach in the corner of a depot with its engine being changed by a PMT crew! PMT held extended tours licences for several resorts in the South East, I distinctly remember coaches off to Cliftonville as one example.
There were six Roadliner coaches and we had the dubious distinction of changing the engines or bell housings on all six at different times in the South East! A fitter and his mate were despatched with the necessary replacement unit in the Ford van and became pretty slick carrying out the changes. I never thought of PMT as being a Company not to be promoted to – but having experienced it at first hand, I can well understand why. Great people though and an excellent place to learn about bus engineering. I have fond memories of those four years.

Ian Wild

Eastbourne Corporation – Daimler Roadliner – DHC 786E – 86

Copyright Roger Cox

Eastbourne Corporation
1967
Daimler Roadliner SRC6
East Lancs B45D

Here is a shot of the Eastbourne Roadliner, that Diesel Dave referred to under the Halifax Corporation – Daimler Roadliner on the 4th of January heading. Cummins earned such a bad reputation for its V6 engine (and the corresponding V8) that it is a wonder that it survived as a company. For years, Cummins used its own fuel injection system in which the pump pressurised the fuel lines but the injectors were individually actuated by a separate camshaft. It is rumoured that Cummins devised this system to avoid paying royalties to the inventors of the in line fuel pump, the German Robert Bosch company. In Britain, Lucas/CAV manufactured pumps under Bosch licence. The Cummins system rendered the engine unresponsive to modest movements of the accelerator – the engine was either “on” or “off”. I never drove a Roadliner, but I have driven Lynxes and Olympians powered by the later L10 engine, and they were crude and rough. Proper fine control of the engine was impossible. The present day “B” series engine and its derivatives used in ADL buses was originally a design of the Case Corporation, and does not have the traditional extreme Cummins characteristics.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

22/03/12 – 08:16

I think Cummins survived (at least in Britain) because the passenger and freight markets don’t talk to each other much. The V engines may have been as bad in both, but Cummins were also building inline engines which seem to have been very successful, and which marked the beginning of the end of Gardner supremacy in ERF and Atkinson trucks among others.
What I find more surprising is the way the bus industry embraced the L10 after its earlier bad experiences.

Peter Williamson

22/03/12 – 13:41

Cummins came badly unstuck with some diesel-powered trains a few years ago, with them having to replace the unreliable engines at some cost to themselves.

Chris Hebbron

22/03/12 – 13:41

Many examples can be found where British companies made the best product in the world and then just sat back and allowed the rest to catch up. When the power to weight legislation came in the six cylinder inline Cummins did become popular with ERF and Atkinson buyers in the haulage sector, but it was more a case of supply rather than choice. The Cummins was more readily available than the Gardner, but it wasn’t as reliable and devoured fuel at an alarming rate. Gardner did have a ‘240’ inline eight cylinder marine engine that was very reliable for the job it was designed for but as a vehicle engine it wasn’t, but in fairness it was being asked to do a job for which it was never intended, marine engines tend to work for long periods at more or less a constant RPM, where as the RPM on a vehicle is constantly fluctuating, it gained a reputation as being unreliable. Gardner tried fitting a turbo to the 180, but through complacency they eventually fell victim to the classic British motor vehicle disease of failure to invest in development

Ronnie Hoye

22/03/12 – 13:42

Whatever merits the L10 may have had as a lorry engine, and one can but reflect upon such “merits” in the ultimate fates of ERF and Seddon Atkinson, it was not a good bus engine, having crude response to accelerator pressure resulting in very rough and jerky ride standards. Along with the Seddon Pennine IV, I would nominate the Cummins powered Lynx as the most horrible vehicle type that I have ever driven. Likewise, the Cummins Olympian was not a patch upon the sophistication of its Gardner equivalent. The L10 was enlarged into the 10.8 litre M11, and early tests with this engine proved that it was totally unsuitable for bus work. It is noteworthy that, along with ERF and Seddon Atkinson, the M11 has now virtually disappeared from the road haulage scene. The smaller “B” series used initially in the Dart and later in ADL ‘deckers as well is a much superior design.

Roger Cox

23/03/12 – 06:30

Rolls-Royce made the Eagle Diesel engine for lorries, which was not too good, and metamophosed into a Cummins engine on takeover, in the end, also not very good, I believe. Was the Eagle ever fitted into buses. I believe it was rather large.

Chris Hebbron

23/03/12 – 06:30

I am surprised at the comments about the Cummins L10 engine. My fleet took a batch of L10 powered Olympians which I viewed with some trepidation. However they matched the 6LX engined Fleetlines they replaced almost exactly in fuel consumption despite having rather more go about them. After an initial problem with cylinder head gasket failures (quickly modified and repaired by Cummins) reliability was exemplary and they were a delightfully simple to work on. Very different from their successor vehicles fitted with the Swedish engine – needed a fuel tanker to follow them round each day and not nice to work on. As for drivers’ comments about the L10, well there was nearly an international enquiry each time one of the fleet worked from the main depot after any repair work had been completed. The ones they couldn’t stand were some early Gardner Olympians with Voith transmission. The comment about replacing engines in diesel trains, I’m pretty sure this referred to trains built with MTU power units as the Cummins NT14 had given excellent service in BR built trains.

Looking at the photo of the Eastbourne bus I am struck that it would not look out of place amongst todays single deckers. It looks smart (the livery helps there), modern, well proportioned and purposeful. What a pity the Roadliner didn’t succeed as the concept was excellent. Still, neither AEC nor Leyland fared much better with early rear engined single deckers.

Ian Wild

23/03/12 – 07:14

SYPTE specified Rolls Royce Eagles to special order for all their Dennis Dominators and all their MCW Metrobuses. This only ended when they began a period of single deck purchase and operation with the Volvo B10M Alexander PS era. One must therefore assume that they were happy with their Eagles – which all had full service lives.
Roll Royce (Eagle) engines were bought by Perkins – not Cummins. (I believe they eventually, by a series of buy outs, ended up in common ownership – but the Eagle became a Perkins).

David Oldfield

23/03/12 – 09:35

Thx, David.

Chris Hebbron

24/03/12 – 09:19

From what I remember reading at the time, I’m pretty sure the Cummins L10 was designed specifically as a bus engine, and wasn’t used in lorries.
As for the Rolls Royce Eagle, I’ve heard exactly the same about that as Ronnie says about the 8-cylinder Gardner – that it was designed for marine use and wasn’t much good on the road. SYPTE chose it for extra muscle, which they felt they needed, and that being the case, they probably felt they had no choice but to stick with it. With the number they had, they would at least become world leaders in making it work!
Bristol Omnibus also used five or six Rolls-Royce powered Metrobuses in Bath. Anyone familiar with Bath and Sheffield will quickly see the connection!

Peter Williamson

24/03/12 – 09:20

Referring to Roger’s comments, the most difficult things I ever had to drive were a couple of ex Shearing’s L10, ZF manual Leyland Tigers. I always put it down to the clutch not being man enough for the job, but maybe I was wrong. Rogers comment about crude response to accelerator pressure producing a rough, jerky ride certainly rings true. Taming the beast was a challenge and then rejoicing when you got the knack! [One of my favourites was a ZF manual Tiger with TL11(260) engine.]
Not really experienced in the engineering or operating side, the number of negative comments on the L10 comes as a surprise. I have driven M11 powered Dennis Rs with AS-tronic – including a jaunt to the south of France – and found it most enjoyable experience. [I have known one vehicle for about six years. The engine has never given cause for concern.]

David Oldfield

24/03/12 – 18:08

The Gardner 240 bhp 8LXB was widely and successfully used in lorries; its problem was that it was physically large and very expensive. The 6LXB/C/D, even in turbocharged form, increasingly became unable to meet minimum power to weight requirements in the the haulage market. To compound the problem, British lorry manufacturers always charged a premium over and above the extra cost for Gardner- in his “Gardner” book, Graham Edge illustrates that the extra cost for a Gardner 8LXB of £1367 became a mark up of £3000 in the ERF sale price. In the straitened economic circumstances of the 1980s, the much cheaper Cummins L10, which was certainly widely installed as standard in Seddon Atkinson, Foden and ERF chassis, became the preferred option. I am not challenging the reliability or fuel economy characteristics of the Cummins, but I do hold fast on its unsatisfactory throttle response features. The Wikipedia entry on the Roadliner says, “The Cummins V6 had that manufacturer’s patented intermediate-pressure fuel pump and governor system, supplying the fuel to open-cup injectors through internal drilled fuel galleries, four-valve cylinder heads and tappet-actuated injection. This made the engine less than suitable for slow speed stop-start work……”. The same characteristics were carried over into the L10.
Taking up Ian Wild’s point about a certain “Swedish” ‘decker engine, the two Gardner Olympians outstationed at Ramsey in the Huntingdonshire Fens could complete two days if required on a tank of fuel. The Volvo Olympians that replaced them not only drank fuel at a prodigious rate, but were equipped with smaller tanks, and had to be filled up twice in the same day. They also possessed the endearing characteristic of blowing out all the power steering fluid. With the Voith three speed transmission, which required the engine to scream up to near maximum revs in the lower two gears before changing up, they were, in my view, despite their powerful performance, decidedly less than impressive. I have also driven TL11 powered Olympians, which were smooth, civilised machines. Given a more enlightened political approach at the time, the TL11 had development potential that could have been reflected in a much stronger present day British engineering industrial base.

Roger Cox

25/03/12 – 09:07

Rolls Royce engines in trains (Bedford – St Pancras DMUs circa 1960) were a disaster, having an unfortunate propensity to ignite spontaneously. In the mid 1980s British Rail insisted on dual sourcing for the big class 158 fleet, so that some were fitted with Perkins engines, which proved inferior to the Cummins unit. (I think they may also have been fitted in some of the class 165s for the same reason, and with no better results.)

Stephen Ford

25/03/12 – 09:08

Being an enthusiast rather than an engineer, I have found Roger’s insight of the operational drawbacks of the Cummins L10 quite fascinating. Wasn’t this the standard engine fitted to the MCW Metroliner 3 axle double deck coaches new in the early/mid eighties?

Bob Gell

25/03/12 – 18:55

On the subject of reliability, a survey taken in 1979 by “Transport Engineer”, the journal of the Institute of Road Transport Engineers investigated the maintenance costs of 9488 heavy lorries, fitted with 16 different engine types, operating at 30/32 tons gvw. This entirely independent review showed the 6LXB at the top of the list, costing just 0.265 pence per mile to maintain, with the 8LXB in close second place. This survey predated the introduction of the Cummins L10, which appeared in 1982, but the earlier Cummins straight six ranges occupied third and sixth places in the list, very creditable indeed. Doubtlessly the later L10 would have returned similar figures. Interestingly, the Leyland O680 and 510 came fourteenth and fifteenth respectively, just above Scania, the costs for which were six times those of the 6LXB. One can only reflect upon the figures for contemporary engines, with their high turbocharging pressures and costly emission control systems, together with their propensity to drink fuel like a dipsomaniac.

Roger Cox

30/03/12 – 07:05

I recall from my days on Southdown just after it’s sale to Stagecoach one of our depot fitters being less than impressed by the Gardner engines lack of oil tightness when fitted to a batch of recently delivered Olympians when compared to the Volvo D10M’s bought by the independent Southdown. He said you could get to work almost straight away on the Volvo when necessary with only a minimum of cleaning, whereas the Gardner took some time to get clean enough to work on.

Diesel Dave

Demonstrator – Daimler Roadliner – CVC 124C

With – Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1965
Daimler Roadliner
Marshall B50F

I have listed this under Halifax Corporation has that is who the Roadliner was on loan to at the time the photo was taken. I went on this bus to Brighouse on the 49 route which was normally serviced by double deckers maybe the intention was to replace them with high capacity single deckers. Halifax didn’t buy any Roadliners or any similar single deckers so the route must of carried on being serviced by double deckers.
I have tried to research which operator the Roadliner finally ended up with but to no avail, if you know, let me know, leave a comment.

By 1975 this bus was with the Transport and Road Research Laboratory at Crowthorne Berks, and was used for “Guided Bus” experiments involving the bus being guided by a wire buried in the road.

Derek Lucas

It was the Daimler demonstrator, a deal was struck with Bob Crouch at Daimler to keep the bus in Halifax but it would be released back to Daimler when needed for demonstration purposes, it usually worked the 5/6 circulars and later had a green roof.
The Cummins VIM V6 engine was a poor unit and lead to the early demise of these buses.
In Halifax the poor roads lead to chassis body flexing and the long chassis severely restricted route availability, also with long routes such as 48/9 it meant too many unhappy passengers standing up.
Finally at this time – it had to have a Gardner 6LX – or it was out!

Christopher

08/03/11 – 15:44

I believe this bus was sold in the late 70’s through the Gov auction sales at the OSDD at Ruddington, Nottm., I was a fitter at the time, my apprentice and I had a drive around the perimeter, it still had the mountings for the experimental equipment and only about 4 seats were installed.

Roger Broughton

29/08/11 – 08:14

We had a number of batches with V6/V8 engines, with Plaxton Coach Bodies for express services, FAST/GOOD HILL EATERS, but required one driver-one coach, to keep them on the road.
The engine sound going through a urban area at 02.00 hrs. was out of this world!!!! Went back to LEOPARDS, after the 4th batch, that or buy a 2nd towing unit. [mind you all top management had Daimler cars by then, buy 9 get a free car?????]

Mike 9

29/08/11 – 16:31

Here is another picture of the Roadliner under evaluation in Halifax, taken, if my memory serves me correctly, near King Cross. Personally, I doubt that GGH seriously considered this vehicle as a contender for the Halifax bus orders. Knowing his fascination with all things in the bus world, I suspect that he wanted to try it out through curiosity alone.

Roger Cox

04/01/12 – 06:56

I well remember the Roadliner from my time with Eastbourne Corporation in the 1960’s. The demonstrator CVC 124C arrived in Churchdale Road depot one Sunday afternoon, I can’t remember when, it was not used in service only inspected and must have had an impression on Mr R R Davies the manager as one was ordered duly arriving in mid 1967 as No 86 (DHC 786E). I was the first driver to take it out on service as a additional bus on service 6, the seafront route, the first one man operated bus for the Corporation which I must say did not go down too well with the residents of the Meads section of the route. Two more similar vehicles arrived the following year as No’s 90/91 (EJK 890/91) all three having two door East Lancs bodies and fitted with the Metalastik suspension. As many others have commented they were very raucous both inside and out the suspension also I seem to remember chattered quite a lot but their performance was a revelation. I believe all three had to have new engines before they had covered 30,000 miles. I recall that when selecting 1st gear when stationary the N/S front corner dipped quite noticeably. My lasting memory of these buses is of stopping on the seafront to pick up passengers when the engine cut out for no obvious reason and would not restart I then noticed in the N/S mirror smoke coming from the engine bay upon investigation I found the main electrical control box and master switch had broken loose and was swinging on it’s cables with terminals shorting on the exhaust pipe after very carefully switching off the master switch I found the short circuit had burnt a hole in the exhaust pipe. Meanwhile orders had been placed for Leyland Panthers, I left the Corporation in 1969 and the Roadliners quite soon after, it has to be said the Panthers were only marginally better.

Diesel Dave

Daimler Transport Vehicles – Daimler Roadliner – KKV 800G

Daimler Transport Vehicles
1968
Daimler Roadliner SRC6/SRP8
Plaxton DP53F

The rear engined Daimler Roadliner powered by the compact and powerful Cummins V6-200 emerged in 1964, but production did not really get under way until 1966, with West Riding, Black & White and Potteries being early users of the type. Reliability problems with the engine and toggle link suspension soon became apparent, and operators began cancelling their orders in the light of service experience. In May 1968 Daimler became part of the British Leyland Motor Corporation, and the Roadliner was offered with the option of the Perkins V8-510 engine with hopes of improved reliability. A new Plaxton bodied Roadliner demonstrator, KKV 800G, still with the troublesome Cummins engine, was built in August 1968. This bus subsequently received the Perkins 8 cylinder power unit, probably before its appearance as shown in the Demonstration Park at the 1968 Olympia show. The Perkins option did not save the Roadliner and only some 33 SRP8 examples were built. KKV 800G subsequently entered the City of Oxford fleet in 1970 as number 639.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

PMT – Daimler Roadliner – 6000 EH – SN1000


Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1964
Daimler Roadliner SRC6
Marshall B50F

This is one of the prototype Daimler Roadliners which originally had the Clayton COMPAS heating and ventilation system fitted. There were two radiators, one each side of the bus just in front of the rear wheels which had the twin function of engine cooling and saloon heating. Sounds good in concept but like a lot of things at that time didn’t work reliably in practice. In January 1969 it reappeared with a front mounted radiator and conventional heating, the only PMT Roadliner so fitted. The radiator is hidden behind the front grille, which may look familiar to some as it was the grill fitted to the contemporary Ford Transit van. I cannot remember now why PMT fitted a front radiator to SN1000 and not a rear mounted one in the engine bay like the rest of the fleet. Incidentally the last 6 of the Marshall bodied Roadliners fleet numbers S1086-S1091 also had the COMPAS system – and they were no more reliable than SN1000!!
This was the only PMT Roadliner with air suspension, all the others had Metalastik toggle link suspension. The photo was taken on a test run near Clayton Schools on 20th January 1969.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

I have driven these buses and they were a total disaster, PMT only kept them for about 7 years.

Michael Crofts

I remember the PMT Roadliners. Some of them had home made looking slits in the panels behind the back wheels to improve engine cooling. They were very noisy.

JT

Yes very noisy but sounding totally unlike a bus. It was a sort of deep “Ewwww” muffled roar. When North Western Fleetline 189 was fitted with the same Cummins V6 you could hear it descending Rassbottom St in Stalybridge (On the joint route 90 to Marple) long before it turned into the bus station.
I now regret that I never did take a ride on a Roadliner when I had the chance. A Potteries mate says they were just as deafening from the inside, and that the later Perkins engined ones whilst marginally more reliable, used to waggle their tails dramatically when driven at high revs.
Darlington and Chesterfield Corporations got long service lives out of theirs, whether that suggests they overcame many of the problems, or that the local councillors refused to give up on them for the costs and red faces involved in replacing them early?

Keith Jackson

When I was a boy the PMT Roadliners operated on route 13 to Bentilee. Apart from the noise the bodywork rattled fit to disintegrate! There was an emergency exit window half way along the off side the locking mechanism for which used to jiggle about when the bus was stationary. A big disappointment after the AEC Reliance 590s.

John Tinsley

Our problem at PMT was that we just had too many of the things!! The largest fleet of Roadliners anywhere in the world. The Plaxton bodied ones (timber framed bodies)could possibly have gone on to nearer normal service lives if re engined with Perkins V8s – but at what cost? The Marshall bodied ones (steel framed bodies)were disastrous and although we rebuilt a few at enormous cost in man hours they weren’t a right lot better. By 1972 failures of the Metalastik toggle link suspension units were becoming prevalent. These were expensive to buy and a nightmare to replace. Panhard rod bushes were a recurrent failure – again taking much longer to replace than a leaf spring on a conventional vehicle. We used saloon seats from withdrawn Marshall vehicles to replace the worn out high backed seats in some of Reliances SN801-810 making them more suitable for urban work and less susceptible to vandalism. Happy days!!

Ian Wild

Just a bit of clarification about the ‘home made looking slits’ (ref JT). They were fibreglass corner panels made in house in the fibreglass shop at Stoke and as JT says, the idea was to provide additional engine bay cooling. To the best of my recollection, they were fitted to the 47 Cummins engined Plaxton and Marshall bodied buses. I don’t think they were fitted to the later batch of 10 Plaxtons with Perkins V8 engines.

Ian Wild

08/02/17 – 16:55

I worked with Cummins at that time and spent a year or so carrying out a series of engine changes and modifications for Belfast Corporation. As it was the time of the troubles, suspect much of my efforts ended up as bonfires.
V6 engine wet liners incredibly sensitive to both corrosion and erosion/electrolysis if water filters maintenance neglected. Becoming porous within months.

Mike Hyde

PMT – Daimler Roadliner SRP8 – WEH 130G – 130

Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1969
Daimler Roadliner SRP8
Plaxton B46D

130 was the first of the final batch of ten Roadliners (130-139) to be delivered to PMT. They had Plaxton bodies to their standard timber framed design with BET style front and rear screens. Apart from the Perkins V8.510 engine, they were similar mechanically to the previous deliveries although they had the miniature Westinghouse air gear shift with a sixth position to operate the centre doors. The Perkins engine was a vast improvement on the Cummins V6 but did suffer from premature cylinder bore wear causing high oil consumption possibly due to some inadequacy in the air filtration system.
The bodies were built with a higher floor level requiring an entrance step (earlier buses had a step free entrance). They were built to the dual door layout then briefly in vogue. Heated windscreens were an innovation on these buses controlled by a wind up clockwork timer(!!) which quickly proved unsuitable for heavy duty bus operation. Some early deliveries went to Stafford Garage and I recall a report from the Inspector there about the indelicacy of young mini skirted mothers when retrieving their push chairs from the luggage pen which had rather a high rail round it!! 130 was the only one in the batch to have the once standard cream panel above the saloon windows, 131 onwards had all red roofs. These were also the first new buses not to have the familiar prefix letters to the fleet number (following on from SN1129 which was the last of the short Marshall bodied Leopards delivered the previous year). The above photo was taken on 1st July 1969 shortly after delivery at the weighbridge at Shelton Iron and Steel where we took the first of each batch of new buses for weighing. The driver is Bill Davies who was a Management Trainee at the time.

Copyright Ian Wild

This is a shot of an earlier Roadliner KVT 180E fleet number S1080 being towed into Stoke Central Works shortly after being burnt out at Swynnerton on 25th March 1969 it was rebodied with an identical body to the 130-139 batch returning to service on 1st August 1969.
PMT cancelled a further order for Roadliners and substituted single deck Fleetlines but date wise they are outside the time period of this website.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

10/03/11 – 07:48

I was the first driver to go into service with 138, it was a Saturday afternoon I was based at Newcastle garage and both 138 and 139 were put on the Burslem Silverdale service on the shift change over. I don’t remember driving anything so fast and it was a struggle not to run early on this service, going up hills was not a problem at all with these vehicles it was “just like driving a mail train as they say”

Michael Crofts

28/07/11 – 15:27

Funny you should mention 138; I’m sure that was the one I saw at Preston North End’s Deepdale ground in the late 1970s having gone there to watch Port Vale play. Only the driver of our Bostock’s coach, who was as big a bus nut as I was, and myself made any comment. It had been sold by PMT to a local independent.

Mel Harwood

22/05/12 – 07:54

I would imagine that it was 137 you saw in Preston as it was latterly owned by Holmeswood Coaches of Rufford … coincidentally the present owners of Bostocks.

Martyn Hearson

10/05/17 – 07:18

I remember Roadliners that West Riding operated, on a trip from Horbury to Flockton on the Wakefield Huddersfield service I think the service number was 89 or 86 this particular Saturday was entering Flockton the Netherton Midgley side and there is a sharp left hand bend just as we approached the bend round the corner came lorry cutting the corner on our side of the road the driver could only put the bus as near to wall and trees on our side of the road as he could and hope that we missed each other which we did ,from the front of the bus came a substantial number of choice Yorkshire adjectives expressing the doubt that our West Riding had of the driver of the lorrys parentage and when we got to Flockton the driver removed the assorted foliage from front nearside wingmirror mounting and doors and nearside open windows, as we got off in Flockton our driver said to my mum are you an lad or rite lass, mum said yes the driver said aye lass that were close at least I haven’t scratched it they only got this b***** yesterday!

David Parkin

03/03/20 – 06:53

From a laymans point of view and having travelled many times on these buses I always thought they offered a much better ride than the previously delivered Roadliners. Travelling on the early batches of Roadliners was much more of a bouncy ride, so was there a change to the suspension on the last batch?

Leekensian

12/03/20 – 06:05

No, the final batch had Metalastik Toggle Link suspension units the same as the previous Roadliners. Thinking about it, I recall a better ride-maybe different rated shock absorbers?

Ian Wild

18/03/20 – 06:49

I recall that two of the original batches of Roadliners were converted to Perkins engines – S1065 & S1078 spring to mind, but did not prevent their early withdrawal along with the majority of the Roadliners.

Leekensian