As a graduate engineer I found myself training at the Brislington works of Bristol (Commercial Vehicles Ltd) when the RE was about to be constructed – in fact I was on the production line when the first production model was assembled – I took in my Bus and Coach magazine with an exploded sketch of the layout to help us put it together! As an aside, the same vehicle eventually became an experimental vehicle and I had the pleasure of driving the only RELH6B – a turbocharged horizontal version of the Bristol BVW engine! It is interesting that Bristol did not extend the MW, like AEC and Leyland extended their Reliance and Leopard models to meet the new 36 ft maximum permitted length. Cyril Eyles was the down to earth engineer who dreamed up the layout of the RE I believe. The glories were that the engine came closer to the back axle than the Panther and Swift et al and drove forward with a smaller diameter higher speed prop shaft over the dropped centre rear axle into the gearbox – originally the synchromesh box designed specifically from scratch with input and output flanges at the same (back) side. The drive from the gearbox went straight into the standard Lodekka rear axle – a well proven unit at the time (and only came to grief on the VRLH6L coach version with the Leyland 680 Power Plus engine). This provided a better, even optimal, weight distribution between axles to provide better ride, steering and braking performance.
Clutch life became an early problem related to drivers not able to hear the engine and the higher torque of the 6HLX engine. Later calculations proved it to be of too small a diameter. We discovered that Leyland and AEC were having similar problems with 36ft long vehicles. While various modifications were tried, the change to semi-automatic using the SCG epicyclic box with BCV transfer gear to bring the output to the rear was put in hand. The earliest vehicles had a rear suspension with rigid beams pivoted at the front each with two air bags, one in front and one behind the rear axle. This beam failed in service and the experimental department confirmed the mode of failure on a 24hr running test rig. The decision was taken fairly swiftly to replace this arrangement with something that had worked well – the Flat Floor Lodekka (FS – FLF) arrangement of ‘flexible beams’ with single airbags behind the rear axle. It was my job to produce the Service Modification drawing to campaign change the rear suspension!
With regard to the engines – I was with Eastern Counties as a junior engineer when the incoming General Manager wanted to be seen to have fast coaches, so he had one vehicle (ECOC RE890?) converted to horizontal Leyland 680. BCV also introduced it as an option and certainly Crosville went for it because there REs were being overtaken by Ribble Leylands on the M1. However they soon found that if two REs one with Gardner and one with Leyland engines left London at the same time, the Gardner was home first.
When I was at Ribble, I eventually got Leyland to admit that the reason that the longer Leopards faded on Motorway hills, whereas the double deck VRL also with a 680 engine could go ’70MPH uphill’, was the unwillingness of Leyland to produce a ‘Power Plus’ version of the horizontal engine because the exhaust manifolds would get in the way of the chassis frame. Signs of Leyland’s fall from excellence!
Geoff Pullin 12/2014
21/12/14 – 10:59
I seem to remember during the sixties Buses Illustrated ran a “joke” article called “Ready, steady, bus”, which tried to bring our hobby up to date with a bus news bulletin presented in the style of contemporary pop music programmes. It referred to “Bristol’s new smash hit, ‘MWL'” At the time I wondered if that was just a figment of the writer’s imagination, or had Bristol offered the MW in 36ft length, but not sold any. This article answers the question! I think the Lodekka was actually offered as a chassis to be bodied by non-standard builders in it’s final years after the partial takeover by Leyland, but again none were sold.
Don McKeown
22/12/14 – 07:36
I have looked through the linked article related to the exchange of VRT for FLF between SBG and NBC. It suggests that it was the Tilling operators who wanted the transverse engine layout. I think you will find that the change of engine position was brought about by legislation that provided grants to bus operators for introducing vehicles suitable for one man [sic] operation and I understood that the small print stated transverse rear engine for double decks. I would appreciate any ‘inside’ information on the reason for the rapid design change from the reasonably well developed longitudinal engined VRL to the VRT.
Geoff Pullin
22/12/14 – 12:08
From the point if view of drivers and passengers alike I always found the RE to be the very best of the first generation rear engined single deckers. For the driver it was well behaved, smooth and free of any nasty vices. The virtually universal, but not exclusively so, smart looking ECW body was simple and uncluttered within and the model was the outright winner in its class for me. As a luxury coach the RE was equally delightful and well behaved. Having driven and ridden in many other brutes of the period, of famous makes, I feel free of any guilt in this enthusiasm.
Chris Youhill
23/12/14 – 05:20
A couple of observations. Firstly, the arrangement of the RE engine and gearbox was apparently selected because BCV wanted to offer a short version, and the Gardner engines were relatively long, so that the rear overhang would have been too long if the gearbox was between the engine and the rear axle. Regarding the change from the VRL design to the VRT, I suspect that there is some truth in both of the reasons given. The early bus grant specs did only refer to transverse engined double deckers (allegedly, the specs were drawn up by people from Leyland). However, there was another issue – or, in effect, the same issue as that which prompted the arrangement of the mechanical components of the RE. With the engine mounted longitudinally, and the gearbox, the rear overhang was so long that the total vehicle length could not have been less than about 32’7″. At that time the Construction and Use regulations specified the proportion of the length that could be outside the wheelbase. Positioning the gearbox ahead of the rear axle in the manner of the RE would not have been possible with a double decker. Thus the vehicles would have been large enough to have about 80 seats, but at that time they would principally have been used to replace early LDs, none of which seated more than 60. Everything else aside, the extra fuel used would have done nothing for the Tilling Group’s operating costs per mile, and, it is known that General Managers were “incentivised” to try to reduce operating pcm each year, even if only by a fraction of a penny. So it is perhaps understandable that Tilling managers wanted a shorter model. In practice, very few 33′ double deckers were delivered to THC/BET/SBG/NBC companies. There is another aspect to the story that is also rather curious. BCV wanted to return to a single type of “universal” chassis, harking back to the days of the K and L types, and the VRL would theoretically have achieved this. Production economies would have been the benefit. So it seems rather strange that, when BCV offered the VRL as a single decker, the prices quoted were higher than for an equivalent RE.
Nigel Frampton
07/01/15 – 06:36
What a fascinating article Geoff. I’m quite envious of you training with Bristol Commercial Vehicles, and on the early REs too, at what must have been an exciting time in the industry. The RELH with the turbocharged horizontal Bristol BVW (BHW) engine you mention was actually the third of three prototypes built -this one being chassis number REX.003. After several years serving as a BCV testbed vehicle, it was eventually kitted out by ECW to full coach specification (C47F), and entered service with West Yorkshire as its CRG1 (OWT241E) with Gardner 6HLX engine in 1967. It has always been my favourite RELH coach, and was the only one of WY’s CRGs to have a manual gearbox. Conversely, WY’s earlier ‘express’ RELH6Gs (ERG1-11) all had manual ‘boxes apart from ERG7, which was converted to semi-automatic transmission. From new in 1966, this coach was dogged by an annoying vibration at speed. Various remedies were tried – new flywheel, gearbox, rear axle – but to no avail. In the end someone suggested fitting a fluid transmission, and the vibration magically vanished. Presumably something must have been misaligned somewhere in the original configuration, but the new fluid flywheel and epicyclic gearbox did the trick. West Yorkshire did have some problems with the manual gearbox RELLs, relating to the synchromesh balk rings failing from time to time. Despite encouragement from Bristol for drivers to use the synchromesh as intended and depress the clutch once for each gearchange, most drivers appeared happier using the tried and tested method of double declutching to effect better changes. This could be confirmed by the “FRRRP! FRRRP!” hiss of air emanating from the air assisted clutch – one “FRRRP!” for each depression of the clutch pedal. Nigel’s comments relating to the Bristol VRL also ring true. The New Bus Grant double-decker specifications at the time did indeed only refer to transverse rear-engined models, and Leyland was involved in advising on this. A shorter VRL would have fallen foul of the Construction & Use Regulations as Nigel states, due to the rear overhang of a vehicle being determined as a proportion of the wheelbase. Therefore, the shorter the wheelbase, the shorter the rear overhang had to be to reduce disproportionate outswing at the rear. Some years later, this caused similar problems for Leyland, when designing the short National. The long wheelbase National had a long rear overhang due to the engine and gearbox being mounted behind the rear axle. The short wheelbase model had shorter window pans due to the body pillars being closer together. This spacing, together with alterations to the fan drive, allowed the rear overhang to be reduced and conform to C&U regulations. The engine compartment was more cramped on the SWB Nationals as a result, which made some engine maintenance tasks more difficult. Now, going back to CRG1, just before Christmas I finally took delivery of a model of my beloved coach (by EFE) after waiting around 47 years for the privilege! It is a fine and beautiful model however, and has been well worth the wait.
Brendan Smith
13/01/15 – 11:41
The first 250 or so RE buses (not coaches) for Bristol Omnibus all had Leyland engines. Gardners began to come in during the 1972 delivery but there were only 14 Gardner-engined REs in all out of nearly 400 (including RESL). For coaches and DPs, the split was more even but Leylands still predominated. I worked in the Traffic Department 1970-3 but the talk was that Gardner’s could not meet Bristol’s demand for large numbers of REs so a decision was made to standardise on Leyland engines. I also heard that the few Gardners were diverted from another NBC order. Someone may know more!
Geoff Kerr
21/10/15 – 07:09
With regard to Nigel’s final paragraph, when I was training at BCV (1962-5), the VR was only known as the ‘N’ type and the SU was the ‘P’ type – the latter only a glimmer in Cyril Eyles’ (CE) eye – and always referred to as likely to have a Perkins engine. With regard to Geoff Kerr’s comments about BOC RE buses – I think you will find that the decision to go to single deck city buses was taken by a General Manager, hot from Ribble (where similar decision had been taken – also using REs!) The fairly new CE at BOC at the time (Philip Robinson) I think you will find started life as a Leyland senior apprentice and may well have had biassed views on engine provider. Even within NBC, personalities could be decisive! At Ribble, of course, Harry Tennant decided (in BET days!) the RELL6L drank too much fuel and specified Gardner for the second batch although shortage in NBC early days meant he had to accept RESL6L thereafter.
Geoff Pullin
22/10/15 – 07:21
The Gardner-engined REs that BOC received in 1972 were indeed diverted from another operator – Western National. There were also 3 Plaxton-bodied RELH coaches, diverted from the same source. I understand that WN had financial difficulties at the time. I am slightly intrigued by Geoff Pullin’s reference to the SU as being known as the ‘P’ type. Duncan Roberts, in his book on the RE, mentions a proposed ‘P’ type, that would have been a lightweight rear-engined single decker (which, of course, never materialised). We can only speculate on what it would have been like. I had never heard of the SU being referred to by any other designation, and by 1962 it would have been in production for a year or two, so the use of an alternative designation seems a little odd.
Nigel Frampton
22/10/15 – 10:55
Perhaps time is playing tricks as indeed the SU was in production by 1962. Perhaps the P type was a successor for it – the Albion engine was not over popular then. I can’t remember it having a rear engine when I drew out a draft specification leaflet for the proposed new models that Chief Engineer Cyril Eyles intended. A quick flash of wisdom now tells me that the P type of course became the LH which did indeed have a Perkins engine and I think the Leyland engine was an option that nearly everyone took!
I was appointed Deputy Assistant Engineer to Eastern Counties Omnibus Company on May 17, 1965 at an annual salary of £1,000 after an interview at Fleet Street, London with the Tilling Senior Training Scheme directors followed by one at Norwich with General Manager Len Balls and Chief Engineer Leo Page. Unfortunately I became ill with an unknown virus immediately upon arrival and spent two weeks in hospital overlooking a cemetery and four weeks at home in Clevedon, Somerset recovering! I had a small office in the chief engineer’s office block on the first floor within the central repair works at Cremorne Lane, Norwich immediately behind the head office at 79 Thorpe Road, Norwich. The office looked out over Laurence Scott and Electromotors works and I was serenaded and showered by one of their large extraction plants. I was worried that I would be expected to work out stresses and design things. I don’t think there was a job description! The only task I can recall as recurring was to take the minutes of the weekly works committee meeting chaired by Jack Robson, the Assistant Engineer – a true Yorkshire man, who I had come across by phone when at Bristol Commercial Vehicles Ltd (BCV) as a trainee. When I was having a spell in the service department at BCV, the phone rang one day and this Yorkshire voice said “You know that modified suspension beam that you have just fitted to our RE (coach), well it’s b***** broken again!” There were two main problems with the first batch of REs, one that the clutch plate life was very low and that the rear suspension hinged fabricated beams, which each supported two air bags, cracked in half spectacularly. The first was only cured by introducing fluid clutch and epi-cyclic gearboxes in time and the second was a campaign change to fit the FLF style flexible beam rear suspension to all REs. I was in BCV experimental department when the test rig confirmed the failure mode and in the drawing office to produce the campaign change drawing and instructions! Jack also introduced me to the phrase ‘as noisy as a weaving shed’ which meant nothing to me as a quiet west country man! I had a few trips out with Jack, who tended to see the central repair works as his main domain. When I was training at Bristol Omnibus Company, I was shown the Setright ticket machine shop and made aware in hushed tones of a ‘problem’ that had been discovered whereby the machine could be made to print a ticket at the correct value and then the dials could be forced back to a lower fare and the register counters would only count the lower fare. Thus a conductor could provide the correct ticket to the customer and pay-in a lot less than was rightly due. One morning, travelling across Norwich to work on a full 1948 vintage K5G, (this body type had been replaced on my Bristol school journey eight years earlier!), I was at the back upstairs, showed my leather bound red pass and then watched the conductor ‘turn-back’ his Setright on every fare! I’m not sure whether Jack knew about this scam, but he soon had the senior Setright mechanic to discuss the matter! Another of his phrases comes to mind: ‘there’s none so miserable as those that are short or crippled’. We sallied forth to the Setright works in London and came back with a modification that should cure the old single digit fare machines still in use in Norwich city. We also took a two digit, modern machine, which I could turn back successfully and they promised to overhaul it and make it fraud proof. I was taken along to collect it, as the expert! I thought the machine felt ‘dodgy’ and succeeded in turning it back in front of the Setright managers! More Yorkshire expressions were forthcoming! Eventually they came up with a shear pin that broke if you tried too hard and then the conductor had to explain why his dial went round and round. I doubt if he got away at the first enquiry, but he certainly wouldn’t the second time. I don’t think the road staff could have known that it was me who upset their well paying scam – they never showed it! Far less difficult was the conversion of the Setright machines from £.s.d to £.p, which I planned. I set up an experimental items system for trying things out in service and providing regular reports for the company and manufacturers (especially BCV and ECW) and this was always admired when I attended the Tilling Group regional engineering meetings three times a year, hence getting to know the chief engineers of the then Eastern Region. I had a rubber stamp made with the then-current oval Eastern Counties logo and the address so that all drawings and documents looked really professional. The vehicle maintenance system comprised of ‘docks’ at fixed mileage which were scheduled from the Chief Engineers’ office weekly and were carried out at central repair works for the Norwich (Surrey Street), Cromer, Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft; Ipswich for Ipswich, Bury St Edmunds, Felixstowe and Saxmundham; Peterborough for Peterborough, March and Kings Lynn and Cambridge (Newmarket Road) for Cambridge (Hills Road), Ely and Newmarket. Specific mechanical units (engines, gearbox, rear axle / differential, air brake units, air suspension control valves, compressors) were scheduled for preventative change and were sent out by truck from central repair works in time for fitment. When I arrived, the schedules showed vehicles due for attention every 30,000 miles and with the sixth dock being a change of all units, then the cycle started again. The previous chief engineer John Woods had set up this system and it had worked like clockwork. A few years before my arrival he had sent news to all depots that through the completion of the programme to replace all 6 cylinder engines in double decks with 5 cylinder engines, the company’s overall average fuel consumption had been reduced such that it was now better than Lincolnshire Road Car Co! Happy days! The regular site of a 5 cylinder double deck chugging along the main roads followed by a stream of cars was already familiar! I collected LFS125 from ECW at Lowestoft – the first time I had driven an FS with 5 cylinder engine and 5.5:1 back axle ratio, making it a very sluggish machine compared to the 6LWs with 6:1 back axle ratios that I was used to at Bristol Omnibus. I was assured when at BCV that an enquiry had been received from Norwich whether 5-cylinder engines could be fitted to the 30ft double deckers – presumably when the six rare FL vehicles were ordered and delivered with Bristol BVW engines (After my time these were changed to Gardner 6LW for better reliability and standardisation, I believe). However this was a time when PSV fitters were being attracted away by the HGV industry which was having to get to grips with annual HGV testing at the newly set-up testing stations. Central repair works was beginning to slip behind in producing overhauled units and it was unthinkable in those days, and probably impossible, to find a contractor to help even if the engineer’s budget ran to it. So units began to fail in service and the running depots were having to spend more time carrying out major unscheduled changes that should have been done in the dock shops. The immediate solution was to write 40,000 miles for 30,000 miles and alter frequency of one or two unit changes! Things got more dire. In Peterborough ECOC pay scales were such that skilled fitters were attracted away to semi-skilled jobs in new industries, so Kings Lynn garage was given some major docks to do. Traffic conditions were getting tougher as well, new vehicles had compressed-air assisted brakes and were being specified with 6LW then 6LX engines to replace 5LW vehicles with resultant increases in wear and tear from greater braking and acceleration. The routine inspection and adjustment (in those days brake adjusters, clutch adjustment, battery topping-up were frequent manual tasks) slipped behind and the mechanical staff were depending on drivers to report defects. I’ll come back to this later. I always had a bit of a penchant for design. I was able to put this to use in two items that were seen by many people and in the second case used by ECW on other customer’s vehicles. The first was the ‘PAY AS YOU ENTER Please tender exact fare if possible’ transfer that was applied to the exterior of all ECOC one-man vehicles for several years. I think the ‘if possible’ was my own customer relations addition, as even then I didn’t like ‘thou shalt not..’ notices on buses. The second was another small transfer which was required when time limits were placed by law on the use of horns during the night. All ECOC one-man vehicles were retrospectively fitted with reversing horns and reversing signs after one or two fatalities, one in Lowestoft bus station before my time, and one within Surrey Street garage. Now a switch had to be incorporated to turn the safety device off! Realising that few types of vehicles had similar dash panels and thus space, the transfer was designed to be used on all vehicles. I achieved this by incorporating an arrow that was in a square and could thus be cut off and placed at either end of the notice section and turned up, down or straight when applied. It was adopted by ECW as a standard! Another abortive bit of design was to produce bus stop plate designs for the Ipswich area incorporating both companies names and or colours. The standard British bus stop plate appeared not long after this effort, but it never achieved the main purpose, by which it was ‘sold’ to the industry, of being recognised as a statutory sign prohibiting parking of non-PSVs. I was allotted the task of installing the first drive-through washes in the company. I spent a night or two and a day or two watching the run-in at Surrey Street so as to position the first drive through bus washing machine in Surrey Street, Norwich. It had to fit between the roof trusses and had a recirculation tank. It replaced a couple of Essex washers which dropped down around a vehicle and mechanically brushed the sides and rear leaving the front to be done by hand – one of these had to be extended to cope with the first 36 ft long vehicles. It had to cope with an allocation of about 240 vehicles (of which some 45 were in outstations overnight and an overflow on open ground across the road at the top of the bus station). Although I got the position about spot-on, (after all I had been driving for a fair bit of overtime on service driving at Bristol, as a graduate trainee), there were some operating problems. The wash was fitted with a felt blanket to deal with roof cleaning and it also swept a good volume of water off the roof of vehicles, but drivers were very keen to get washed and parked up. This meant that there were rather more gallons of water on the garage floor than was acceptable and some of this made its way towards the maintenance pits which in those days were at the city end and not enclosed. I discovered that a ‘dripping time’ of 20-30 secs within the exit ramp was all that was needed to improve matters drastically and this was implemented! This type of wash did not deal with fronts and backs. So the Depot Mechanical Superintendent (DMS) Alec Mortimer recruited four older ‘dependable’ part-time cleaners who succeeded in hand cleaning all the backs for the evening run-in as each bus stood before driving-through. The fronts never get so dirty and water coped between routine cleans! Then a night or two were spent in Hills Road, Cambridge to site their wash. One problem I like to think that I resolved with the FLFs was that conductors couldn’t see forward to announce where they were. I designed a cut out in the nearside blind and a blanking plate in the cab which stopped reflection from the bright fluorescent lighting distracting the driver. I wonder what the Scottish group made of these when they were exchanged with VRT, thankfully after I had left for Maidstone! With the arrival of a new General Manager, W. Tom Skinner, formerly chief engineer at Eastern National – the richer sister company down the road, policies changed! He wanted to keep himself ahead in engineering. Leo Page, the chief engineer at the time preferred being left alone to do what he was used to! The first change was from 6LW to 6LX in the second large batch of FLF double decks and the replacement by BCV of the Gardner 6HLX engine by a Leyland O.680 engine in one of the second batch of RELH coaches (I think it was RE890) as an experiment to improve the performance of the coaches which were perceived to be slow! [As an aside, this strategy didn’t work! Later I discovered that Crosville specified Leyland O.680 engines in their RELH coaches for the Liverpool London service due to complaints of slow running but found that the slower Gardner engine vehicles still got in first because their greater low speed torque got them up the hills faster than the Leyland versions. Later, when at Ribble, I complained to Leyland service engineers that 12m Leyland Leopards were being outperformed by the splendid heavier and bigger Bristol VRL double deck motorway coaches which also had Leyland O.680 engines. I was informed that the VRLs had the ‘Power-Plus’ truck engine which was not available in the horizontal format and in any case wouldn’t fit into the Leopard chassis frame if they tried! This was an indication of British Leyland at its worst and a pointer to its future demise! The next ‘impressive’ idea was to install Dawson cyclone cleaners to make interior cleaning more efficient. I saw the system in use at Trent, Derby where a long straight service lane allowed the vehicles to line up with raised side platforms in place for the operator to enter the vehicle from the rear side emergency door to agitate litter with a compressed air lance to be sucked through the front door which was covered by the giant fan extractor unit. I was given the task of installing a unit in Surrey Street but had little conviction that it would be operable! There was no way any vehicle could line up in a straight line at Surrey Street – it had three or four side by side fuelling points and there was just room to drive from these through the bus wash at the back side of the garage. All I can say is that it was installed, mobile steps were provided and it got used during the day as outstation vehicles came into fuel. I can’t remember whether Hills Road, Cambridge received a unit. New FLFs around this time were delivered with flaps that would open under the rear upper deck seats to let in an air current to take all the upper deck litter out through the front door. Earlier deliveries were converted later. Director George McKay on entering Cremorne Lane works and seeing the pile of flaps waiting to be fitted exclaimed “what’s all this f***ing stuff for?”! Another fascinating episode involved the last MW (LM) buses. Two (or was it one?) were specified to have front entrance and centre exit with room for more than usual standing passengers and glazed quarter lights. Perhaps a good idea in principle for the Thorpe Station – Cringeleford route. But then you looked at the exit and the huge deep steps and shuddered! One was allocated to King’s Cliffe outstation to provide greater capacity (fewer seated, more standing) on the commuter inbound service to Peterborough! How long did that last? Why on earth didn’t they (was it Tom Skinner or Tilling group?) wait to use the lower-floored RESL (RS) vehicles which followed immediately in place of the outstanding order of MWs? The devil is in the detail. Due to the poor earning potential of ECOC, it had always run vehicles to a great age and received second hand vehicles from other ‘richer’ Tilling group fleets to save capital costs. Tom Skinner was well aware that Eastern National was disposing of sound Bristol LS buses which would help the ECOC vehicle age profile and several arrived, the first stage carriage versions ever in the fleet and confusingly designate ‘LM’! Another innovation was the purchase of some Bedfords. There were 4 Bedford VAM with Leyland engines with Duple coach bodies, designated CB. I collected one of these from Hendon. They had very heavy steering! Also 4 Bedford VAM, 2 with Leyland engines, 2 with Bedford engines (to see what the cheap engine would do compared to the ‘heavy duty’ ones) with bus bodies by ECW, designated SB 661-4, I think. The driver had to get to his cab by walking behind his seat and squeezing forward, because the ticket machine and cash tray structure were mounted over the shallow engine cover. I had these rebuilt with a substantial engine cover to form the normal way into the cab. (These Bedfords are not mentioned in your website fleet list! Although I say here 4 + 4, I have just looked back through some lists of slides and notice that fleet number CB836 and 845 occur, so perhaps there were more or two batches? I also was reminded that ECOC had an earlier unique batch of Bedford SB chassis with Duple coach bodywork which had Gardner 4LK engines (- this must have been another of John Wood’s conversion projects!) When Jack Robson retired as Assistant Engineer in June 1967, he was replaced by Eastern Area Engineer, Charles Mannell. Tom Skinner told me I was to replace him as Area Engineer. I told him that I felt totally unsuited to the job as I had had no practical training other than as a graduate engineer and holiday jobs, but could do the Assistant Engineer’s job! He said the area could run itself and that’s why he was putting me as Area Engineer for the experience – they will teach you the job! The greatest advantage was a company car – no less than the retired Assistant Engineer’s car because Charles had long legs and had had his identical Austin Cambridge seat amended. Finding and looking after the outstations in Norwich and Ipswich districts was a joy – no carphones or mobile phones! I carried an oil can for garage door hinges and locks, lamp bulbs and a cloth and cleaner to keep the signs looking tidy. In 2½ years there was one outstation that I never found! Whenever in Diss, I changed the time clock to suit the time of year for the bus station lighting. It was the norm for the Ipswich and Central Works vehicle painters to spend the Summer repainting company property, including outstation garages and booking offices. I enjoyed deciding the colours to be used and remember having the ceiling in Bury St Edmunds booking office painted bright red and in Ipswich where the public wandered through an old office building between bus stations, I had the ceiling painted black so they could not see how irregular and tatty it was! New vehicles were usually allocated to outstations so there would be no starting problems in the mornings. An MW (LM) allocated to Stradbroke (Ipswich district) did a run on one day a week into Norwich. The driver parked his bus at the back of Surrey Street garage and moved another one to block it in, so that nobody used his vehicle during his lay-over. I have a feeling that it had a plastic flower posy on the front dash! In the Summer, Great Yarmouth was allocated extra coaches and the DMS was distracted by his wife’s lodgings business. I got to know from the experience of drawing my finger on the interior windows of a bus how long it had been since it had been cleaned – in Great Yarmouth it was often nicotine encrusted from over 8 weeks! Incredibly, come to think back, I cannot remember ever having to deal with any disciplinary action or formally meeting with any trade union representatives during my time as area engineer, except indirectly when we had a campaign check and rectification of heaters on all SC (LSC?) buses in Ipswich depot one cold winter. We had an apprentice at Great Yarmouth and at Lowestoft. I was concerned that the one at Great Yarmouth was not getting adequate training so arranged for him to spend time at Surrey Street where he could get a lot more experience – I suspect he had to travel back and forth by bus, so probably didn’t do much work! Getting buses out of ditches was another regular item where I was shown how to do the job. My predecessor had designed, and had made in the works, ground anchors which could be secured to the soil with large angle iron stakes, to provide a winching point. I arrived one snowy morning at Bulmer Tye to find the Ipswich gang already well forward with recovery of a double decker. I was then approached by a GPO Telephone engineer’s van. He said he was looking for a cut in all the telephone cables along the road – then he saw the ground anchor! I was never advised what the cost was to our insurance. We did issue instructions to check for little concrete GPO posts before inserting stakes in future. As mentioned before, the regularity of vehicle routine maintenance was slipping badly. This was a national problem and the Traffic Commissioners were beginning to get tougher by insisting on very high standards at the Certificate of Fitness inspections, such that depots could no longer just take a vehicle off the road, steam clean it and present it. [In those days a new PSV was given a Certificate of Fitness (COF) at the factory for seven years. It became the practice that at the first re-certification the longest period that was granted was 6 years if the vehicle was in good condition, 5 if not!, and at the second re-certification 5 years and so on. At ECOC the average age of vehicles was always high, so COFs became more frequent]. If the certificate ran out, the vehicle was off the road, full-stop! So, we tried putting all Norwich district COFs through central repair works where they took precedence over mileage docks. The regular inspection of PSVs by the Ministry of Transport was always carried out in the depot and each inspector was supposed to see each vehicle every year. It was not so regimented as it is now or was for HGVs at that time. This was the time when no pay increases were permitted by government unless there was an increase in productivity. A work study scheme was begun for engine overhauling at Cremorne Lane works. Charles Mannell had experience of engine overhauling on a grand scale in South Africa and set about the job in a proper manner. This soon improved output and we began to find that engines were available when wanted. Later, these engines were declared to be poor quality at Surrey Street as they failed within a short period. Having already learned at this early age that most people tell you what they honestly believe to be the truth, there is usually an explanation if you dig in carefully. One day whilst ‘walking the job’ I asked a cleaner why he was topping up the engine oil of an MW (sorry, LM) when it came in from an outstation, as it was fitted from new with a Frankman Lubrimatic automatic top-up system which enabled the sump to be replenished from a reservoir. He said it didn’t work, so I had a look and discovered that it had been disconnected and the wide stub pipe onto which the normal filler tube should fit was left open without a cap. Depot Mechanical Superintendent Alec Mortimer was horrified and a quick check over the next few days as similar vehicles appeared for refuelling from outstations revealed several in this condition, thus sucking road dirt straight into the oil sump and causing rapid bore wear! Filler tubes and caps were ordered up and the Frankman’s officially and properly disconnected. The work study scheme was absolved! Surprisingly the arrival of the first RELL (RL) and VRT (VR) doesn’t seem to have made a dent on my memory. It must have been without incident, after all they had automatic break adjusters and a fluid clutch! I can recall that a VR was converted to one-man operation fairly swiftly, our first double deck so equipped and allocated to Attleborough outstation to prevent overloading on the first morning journey- rather more successful than the King’s Cliffe experiment! This presaged the huge FLF for VRT exchange between the Scottish Bus Group and National Bus Company that followed soon after which greatly effected ECOC but not me! By this time the 240 vehicles at Surrey Street were being inspected about every 8 weeks, if that, and the maintenance was running mainly on drivers’ defect reports. The fine performance of the three running shift chargehands kept the fleet on the road! As a small improvement, I had already increased the number of specific Norwich vehicles that were allocated to Cromer depot for routine maintenance. I then received a simple instruction from the General Manager (I think the Chief Engineer was off sick by now and was replaced by John Phelps just as I was leaving in late 1969) ‘I want all Surrey Street vehicles routinely inspected every four weeks – organise it!’ I think I might have said that this would mean buses not being available for service when broken springs, brake relines etc were found initially at a rapid rate, but no doubt got short shrift. I sat down and worked out how many vehicles of each variety would be required every week day so that traffic would have an even flow of vehicles. I could see that there would be some efficiency gains when we got it going because we currently (I had inherited and who was I to query it?) had wandering battery toppers-up, a Dunlop tyre man unable to find vehicles he needed, interior vehicle cleaners scrubbing clean the older vehicles frequently and the newest and outstation vehicles rarely, the advert fixer never being able to find the right vehicles. I went to see Alec Mortimer the DMS and asked him what he would say if I told him that we have to inspect every vehicle every four weeks. He replied that he would take his white-coat off and go straight home! Never one to have a ‘meeting’, I sat on the radiator in his tiny office, we chatted around what would need to be done, and sure enough, it was my assurance that specific vehicles will be released by traffic on the allocated day, that caused him to say ‘give me another shunter and I’ll make it happen!’ And he did. Then immediately I was successful in getting the job of Assistant Engineer at Maidstone & District, an ex- BET company that was now, with the Tilling Group incorporated into the National Bus Company. My 2 ½ years there, with Vin Owen as my Chief Engineer, was a different world and another story! I was followed as Deputy Assistant Engineer by Chris Jepson, who also came via Bristol Commercial Vehicles. When I left, the post of Area Engineer Eastern disappeared and Chris became Norwich District Engineer which newly incorporated Kings Lynn.
Geoff Pullin 01/2015
Thanks for this very interesting article, I don’t know how you can remember so many of the peoples names from those days, so long ago. I worked at LUT in the 70’s and I struggle to remember names, but I can easily remember all the vehicles though ! I remember one chap though with reference to the information of the pre-decimal set-right machines. We had none of those at Swinton depot, only TIM’s for 99% of duties with just the odd Bellgraphic (you wrote onto the ticket through a little window- the copy winding straight into the machines body after issuing the ticket) which were used on the X60/X70 runs. This chap however knew how to fiddle a TIM. (You just asked for a favourite machine, if you had it before). He did it while on part day duty, where you did not sign off back at depot, hence you kept hold of the ticket machine until you did your back half duty. What he did was sit the machine into a vice, unscrew the handle and he made a short drill shaft with an end that matched the handle and by attaching an electric drill he wound the penny counters on through 10000 and stopped short of the start numbers, hence paying in say £16.00, when perhaps £20 – £25 had been taken. He was found out (sacked on the spot & prosecuted of course) when the overnight TIM checking staff found slight differences on the halfpenny & shilling catch, which was not moved onwards by the drilling process. All that effort for a few quid, once every three of four weeks. So it was not just Setrights that could be beaten !
Mike Norris
13/01/15 – 06:18
Geoff, what an excellent article. I was slightly later than you into the Bus Industry, PMT from 1968 – 1972. So much of what you have written applied at PMT even though the Companies were from opposite sides of NBC. We too installed a Dawson Cyclone interior vacuum at Hanley Depot with exactly the same problems and solutions as at Eastern Counties. As a raw recruit into the Industry I still marvel at things we ‘got away with’ (scheduled docks not carried out because of major unit failures; a liberal attitude to annual Ministry vehicle checks. PMT had a large fleet of both early Atlanteans and early Fleetlines, neither of which were particularly reliable followed of course by the great Roadliner disaster; Incidentally, you are Geoff who was Head of Department at Coventry City College in the late 90s/early 2000s aren’t you? I hope you will continue with part 3 of your memories – at Maidstone and District – a good BET Company if ever there was one!
Ian Wild
13/01/15 – 08:55
Thanks for the article. I got quite excited because I think we are getting nearer to the answer to my occasional but unanswered query about those two hatches in the rear of ECW VR’s which I believe are for removing rubbish, but they sound more sophisticated than the Dawson systems described here. At least such things did exist! Did the VR systems blow or suck and were they for both decks? Did they work?
Joe
15/01/15 – 06:06
Thank you for a lovely article Geoff, and what wonderful memories. They are an important part of our transport history and need to be recorded. Your article took me straight back to my time with West Yorkshire Road Car, at their Harrogate Central Repair Works, where I started my apprenticeship in 1969. Your comment about the RE suspension beam being “b***** broken again!” reminded me that until I started work at 16, I didn’t really know any ‘asterisk’ words, but my knowledge was soon to be extended. Then – although in the main I did not tend to use such words often – at least I knew that should the occasion arise (such as striking my thumb with my hammer) I could feel confident in letting forth a decent expletive or two to compete with the best of them! The ticket machine ‘turning back’ saga is fascinating, and must have caused quite a few headaches for the Company. It was a much more elaborate way of fiddling the books than the method used by one or two conductors up here. One older Harrogate conductor loved double-deckers on peak journeys, where he would rarely venture upstairs to collect fares when the bus was well loaded. Instead he concentrated on collecting the fares of passengers on the lower deck, and then took up position at the foot of the stairs. As passengers came downstairs to alight, he would take their fares as they passed by, issuing tickets of less value than the money taken, and pocketing the difference. Very simple, but very sad, and he was eventually dismissed by the Company when it had gathered enough evidence to take action. Like Eastern Counties, West Yorkshire operated the ‘heavy dock’ maintenance system, carried out by the main depots at Harrogate, Leeds, Bradford, Keighley and York. However, the Company also carried out full vehicle overhauls when a certain age or mileage was reached. Overhauls were carried out at Central Works and the nearby Body Shop. All mechanical and electrical units, major and minor, were removed from each vehicle, and then the chassis was inspected, cleaned and painted, before being fitted with newly overhauled replacement units from stock, and rewired. On completion, the vehicle would be driven around the corner to the Body Shop on Westmoreland Street. There the coachwork was overhauled, with corroded/damaged parts replaced, seat frames checked and repainted, upholstery renewed in the Trim Shop, and the vehicle fully repainted by hand and (in pre-corporate poppy red days) finally varnished to a very high standard. Before the advent of the LS and Lodekka, bodies were removed for overhaul in the Body Shop, and the chassis driven around to Central works for overhaul, which must have made access to all the mechanical components fabulous. On completion, the chassis and body were married up again in the Body Shop. As with ECOC, WYRCC had a preventative maintenance programme in operation, to help maintain reliability, but like ECOC, it sometimes fell short of expectations due to similar shortages of depot engineering staff. It didn’t appear to affect Central Works and the Body Shop, but their staff did not work shifts or weekends, apart from occasional rounds of overtime. We too had a ‘productivity scheme’ inflicted upon us and it was something of a farce from start to finish. The two men observing fitters and electricians repairing or overhauling all manner of items large and small, had not the slightest inkling as regards anything mechanical or electrical. They were constantly asking “What’s that part there?”, “What does that do?”, or “Why are you doing that?” In exasperation one day when asked “What do you call that?” while overhauling a Gardner water pump, Chris, the placid fitter I was working with said “Charlie”. The Time and Commotion man was not amused, but I certainly was!! Thank you so much once again Geoff for evoking many happy memories. I can’t wait for the next instalment.
Brendan Smith
28/12/15 – 11:52
I returned to this page today and found the comments – thanks for your responses
To clarify the Dawson Cyclone interior cleaning system for Joe – There was a large metal box which rolled up to the entrance door and sealed around it with cushion edging. It had a large fan which sucked air through the doorway and out through the top of the box. It must have had a filter system, but I can’t remember that. Having got suction, there will be no air flow until an access for the air is provided. With single deckers, the emergency door was just right – usually on the offside and at the other end of the vehicle. An operator entered the vehicle through the emergency door with a compressed air lance with a long coiled piping and agitated litter from dead corners and caught around the floor which then shot up to the front door and out. It was less neat an arrangement when the emergency door was centre rear. On double decks, the operator had to walk to the back upstairs to push open the rear floor level flaps to let air in to sweep upstairs, complete with coiled air lance which caught around everything. It is one of those bright ideas that can work with a straight long service lane providing vehicles have offside rear emergency doors. The Trent installation at Derby seemed to work very well but where were the emergency doors on standard BET vehicles? – rear offside! Tilling companies, besides still having rear platform double decks, had lots of FLF / FSFs with centre rear emergency doors (but at least reachable without steps) and were putting centre rear exit single decks (RE) into service which needed steps!
Brendan speaks of West Yorks’ central workshop overhauls. When I was still a graduate trainee at BCV, one of three interviews I had for a first post was at Harrogate with Chief Engineer Marcus Smith. He showed me around – including a Lodekka stripped of units and the chassis painted with yellow phosphate paint, I think it was, to protect against the excess road salt. He also made the comment that they were looking for a self-starter technical assistant and not someone who needed to be cranked. I assume I needed cranking! I came across Marcus again when he turned up as MD at BCV.
Ian mentioned City College Coventry. After not being on the millionaire list on the break-up aftermath of NBC, I got a job as Head of School – PSV training at what was then Tile Hill College, not because I could teach but because I knew the industry! I reported to Bob Millington, an indefatigable enthusiastic FE engineer who was new in post just before me. In FE colleges thereafter the jobs change and increase year on year and the funding of courses changes half way through the year. It eventually got to me and despite having designed and got built a purpose built PSV training workshop, complete with pits and hoists, I was only too pleased to get out just after there was a reverse take-over when Tile Hill took on Coventry Technical College and became Coventry City College, only to abandon the new workshop within a short period.
My experiences of work study schemes really started at M&D, continued at Ribble and thankfully ended at UCOC – but that’s another story!
Geoff Pullin
28/12/15 – 16:55
Mention of various ticket machine ‘fiddles’ in this article remind me of an instance at Blackpool. At busy times, ‘jumper’ conductors were used to help with fare collection. These men would board a busy tram, help the conductor by collecting fares on one deck, then get off and await the next tram. There was no set duty for these men, so no proper record of what trams they had to work. One man was known as always refusing overtime and so was not normally asked but one day the depot inspector was particularly short the next day so asked our friend to work but he refused. The next day, the inspector himself was off duty and boarded a tram with his wife and was surprised to find “Joe Blogs” work it as a jumper. When the inspector returned to work he asked his colleague how he had managed to persuade him but he insisted he had not! Further investigation eventually found (with police help) that he had a caravan, boat … and a long missing ticket machine” In another case, a lady was walking her dog near a Manchester bus depot when a bus passed and turned a corner a bit sharply. As it did so, a roll of Setright tickets fell off the open platform. The helpful lady picked them up, made a note of which bus they fell from, and took them into the nearby depot. The roll turned out to be one of a batch that went missing sometime previously…
John Hodkinson
29/12/15 – 06:54
I think John Hodkinson means Ultimate Tickets, which being pre-printed had a value, and had serial numbers, so easy to trace. Setright ticket rolls being blank and of no value, and unable to trace.
Not seen the beginning of this article click here.
My arrivals at Huntingdon Street between 1964 and 1969 were always by means of the North Western/Trent X2 from Manchester. Ribble vehicles could also be found on this service, as some journeys continued through Manchester to Blackpool, relabelled as X60s. As Robin Hood Coaches (pre 1961) and then Barton provided a daily express service between Nottingham and Blackpool, the terms of the X2 licence allowed through bookings but laid down strict conditions about the number of duplicates and prohibited any advertising save as a connecting service rather than a direct link. Unfortunately North Western and Ribble drivers were in the habit of parking up for their layovers next to the Barton inspectors’ hut, blatantly displaying “Blackpool X2” as their outbound destination! I gather that stern letters often followed such faux-pas. What follows is a summary of the activity on Huntingdon Street’s platforms during my many visits (or should that be pilgrimages?) during the second half of the 1960s. Most of these visits were made on Saturdays, but I did make several mid-week visits during the summer holiday periods. My earliest possible arrival time was just before noon, so I have also added details of other movements which avoided my personal attentions. It should be remembered that Platforms 1-4 were the southern half of the bus station, with 1 being adjacent to Huntingdon Street and 4 across from the municipal power station (or “Tram Depot”, a misnomer which spread from young bus-spotters to the later commercial developers of the site).
Platform 1
As noted in Part Two, this was mainly the preserve of Nottingham City Transport routes 25/25A which operated as circulars to Thackeray’s Lane in the north-east of the city. The 25 took the direct route first while the 25A went the long way around via Carlton before returning via the shorter leg. In the evenings and on Sundays the short leg was eliminated, with all journeys operating Huntingdon Street-Carlton-Thackeray’s Lane and return via the same route, showing service number 25 in both directions. NCT favoured open radiator Regent Vs for the route during my years at Huntingdon Street, usually with Park Royal bodywork.
Barton’s express service 9 to Skegness also used Platform 1, and an occasional double-decker was still used as a duplicate. On one visit in August 1966 I saw Barton’s unique lowbridge Loline parked next to Lammas Lodge with the blinds set for a trip to Skegness later in the day. By the 1960s though, this was an increasingly rare sight as traffic decreased from the post-war heyday. The more regular performers were single-deck coaches, especially the second-hand Reliances bought from the Cream Line group and elsewhere. For a while in the 1950s it appears that Barton’s service 34 to Llandudno also used this platform after being evicted from Platform 2 in the general swap-around after the Broad Marsh migration. This left before my arrival, got back after my departure, and left no trace of its existence on the bus station destination boards, so I really cannot say where it departed from in the 1960s.
Platform 2
Before the opening of Broad Marsh in 1952 Platform 2 was the domain of Barton alone, housing the busy 7/7A/8 cluster of services to the Calverton area and the less frequent services 22/24 to the Vale of Belvoir. After the mass migration Barton lost the platform to Trent who used it for the half-hourly 65 to Bunny (continuing to Loughborough every two hours as the 66), the high frequency services to Gedling and beyond (67-70/70A/70B/71, with a combined frequency of five per hour), and the half-hourly 76 to Burton Joyce (continuing to Southwell every two hours as the 74). A more frequent service to Southwell was provided by Mansfield District Traction service 215 which was the only non-Trent presence on Platform 2. This was usually operated by MDT Lodekka rear-loaders but I did see a couple of Regent IIIs on the service before their eventual withdrawal. The hectic Trent activity on the platform was mostly double-decked with PD2s and PD3s gradually yielding to Atlanteans during the decade. The exceptions were the 65/66 to Bunny/Loughborough which were the preserve of single-deckers, particularly the 36ft Leopard/Willowbrook DPs.
Platform 3
The Trent invasion of Platform 2 displaced Barton’s 7/7A/8 to Platform 3 where they took the space vacated by migratory Barton services 2 to Melton Mowbray, 6 to Keyworth, and 23/26 to the Vale of Belvoir. Barton service 12 to Leicester had also used platform 3 before 1952 but moved to platform 6 during the reorganisation of stands. The 7/7A/8 cluster of services was a bastion of Barton’s Leyland PD2 fleet, with both second-hand and “bought new” examples in evidence. Having the platform to itself Barton also tended to use the offside lane as additional parking, particularly for excursion and tour coaches.
South Notts’ fleet number 80 (80 NVO) was a 1962 PD3 with Northern Counties L65F bodywork, one of two such vehicles acquired just before the Lowlander years. In this shot, taken on 4th May 1968, it is seen leaving platform 4 for Loughborough. Visible in the parking area are three Trent double-deckers, and beyond them the distinctive clock housing of Lammas Lodge (John Stringer)
Platform 4
To my younger eyes this was the best platform on the bus station as it was allocated to independents other than Barton. South Notts Bus Co were the largest user in terms of departures, with their half-hourly route to Loughborough (which saw the frequency as far as Gotham doubled to every 15 minutes on Saturday) operated by a fascinating mixture of lowbridge PD2s and PD3s (two of the latter with front entrances) and low-height Albion Lowlanders. And before anybody points it out, I know that the Lowlanders had “Leyland” lettering on the fibre-glass radiator cowlings – I just prefer to ignore such corporate re-branding. On Wednesdays, Saturdays, and summer Sundays South Notts also had a single-deck presence on their village service to Thrumpton, providing a rare chance to see a Duple Roadmaster which didn’t have Dinky Toys stamped on its base-plate.
The second most frequent user of the platform was Gash of Newark, rightly renowned for its immaculate fleet of Daimler double-deckers. By the time I became a regular at Huntingdon Street the Massey bodied examples reigned supreme, some of them older chassis whose original bodywork by Strachans had disintegrated. Gash’s direct main road service to Newark ran hourly from Sunday to Friday, but half-hourly on Saturdays. A variation which abandoned the main road for Orston and the villages beyond before finding its way to Newark ran infrequently on Wednesdays and Saturdays only, with departures from Huntingdon Street at 1305 and 1505, If you were very lucky this might produce a sighting of one of Gash’s Willowbrook bodied Albion Nimbuses.
Here we have W Gash & Sons Daimler CVD6 it is on platform 4 and has a Barton BTS1 behind it on platform 3 – presumably on one of the 7/7A/8 cluster although I can’t read its identity or destination.
The third independent to be found on platform 4 was Skills, better known for its long distance tours than its local stage carriage route. As often happens in such cases the route in question was acquired as a by-product of purchasing another operator for its coaching licences. Skills acquired Jacklin’s “Elect Service” of East Bridgford in 1944 along with a half-share of the route from East Bridgford to Nottingham. A year later Trent bought Lewis of East Bridgford which operated the other half of the joint service. Surprisingly, Skills kept their half, operating a succession of new and used double-deckers on the route at a frequency of every 90 minutes, In the 1960s the Skills workings were covered by a pair of forward entrance Met-Cam bodied PD3s bought new in 1959 and looking rather odd in Skills two-tone green colour scheme. Trent operated their share of the service at an intermittent frequency as route number 73, often with open platform rear-loaders which looked very cold and draughty compared to the Skills machines.
Platform 5
Moving on to the northern half of the bus station, platform 5 was the closest to Huntingdon Street and platforms 8 (and later 9) the nearest to the parking area. Before the opening of Mount Street Bus Station platform 5 was the territory of Midland General, providing departure points for services towards Alfreton, Ilkeston, and South Normanton. In post-war years it was allocated to Trent express services, including the X2 to Manchester, X3 to Skegness, X4 to Mablethorpe, X5 to Cleethorpes, X6 to Blackpool via Derby, and X7 to Great Yarmouth. As the destinations suggest, all but the X2 were infrequent seasonal routes, so in the off-peak periods the platform served as a dumping ground for Trent vehicles on layover and was also used as a departure point for tours and excursions.
Platform 6
Barton’s half-hourly service 12 to Leicester was the company’s only contribution to platform 6, but was always worth checking as it offered a variety of single-deckers including the Yeates bodied Reliances and VAL14s. Trent’s service 62 to Mansfield via the direct route was slightly more frequent (every 20 minutes), but offered a more boring offering of PD2s/PD3s/Atlanteans. The platform was Midland General’s last foothold at Huntingdon Street, providing space for the hourly B8 to Mansfield via Hucknall and Rainworth ( a most indirect route compared to the 62) and two much rarer services, the Saturdays only F3 to Mansfield (which omitted Hucknall) and the peak-hour only A1 to Ripley. In my era the B8 and F3 were usually operated by a selection of Lodekka derivatives.
Trent’s 1957 vintage PD2/Met-Cam Orion KCH 127 was given fleet number 1027 when new, but later became fleet number 784 as seen in this 1970 shot. The vehicle is parked next to the Trent inspectors’ hut at the north end of platform 4, preparing for a departure from platform 7 to Bingham on the 79A. (John Stringer)
Platform 7
This platform was used by Trent’s (ex Dutton’s Unity) service 84 to Sutton-in-Ashfield which ran half-hourly on Mondays-Fridays and every 15 minutes on Saturdays. It shared the platform with Trent’s service 79 to Grantham (jointly operated eight times each weekday with Lincolnshire Road Car who showed the service number 33C on their rear entrance Lodekkas), the wholly Trent operated 79A which filled in the gaps to provide a half-hourly service as far as Bingham, and the hourly 63 to Chesterfield (jointly operated by Trent and East Midland, with the latter using service number 12A). The Trent workings provided the usual double-deck fodder, while East Midland provided lowbridge Atlanteans and Lowlanders for variety.
Platform 8
Two further services operated jointly by Trent and East Midland departed from platform 8. These were the Trent 64 (EMMS 36) to Doncaster and the Trent 80 (EMMS 37) to Retford. The 64/36, which took a bottom-numbing 2 hours and 50 minutes to reach its destination, operated every two hours on Sundays-Fridays, but hourly on Saturdays, while the 80/37 was two-hourly throughout the week. On the weekday schedule the two services alternated, but on Saturdays the vehicles operating the two routes left Huntingdon Street in convoy at even hours plus 40 minutes. The two services’ relatively low frequency left plenty of room for other departures, and after the Broad Marsh migration in 1952 the platform became the departure point for “other” express services, meaning those not operated by Barton or Trent. These included Black & White (operating to Cheltenham on behalf of Associated Motorways), Hall Bros of South Shields (with well-known express routes from Coventry to Newcastle via Nottingham), Lincolnshire Road Car (which operated seasonal services to Mablethorpe as route A and to Cleethorpes as route B), Royal Blue (to Northampton and then Bournemouth for Associated Motorways), United Counties (to London), and the Yorkshire Services consortium of EMMS, EYMS, WYRCC, YTC and YWD which came through in force twice each day en route from a huge variety of Yorkshire towns to more southerly termini in Birmingham, London, and Luton.
Until 1961 the platform was also the departure point for Robin Hood’s services to Blackpool, Morecambe, and Southport, and their joint service (with Barton) from Corby in Leicestershire to Glasgow. Barton’s service number for the Glasgow route was 58, and after they acquired Robin Hood the daily (year-round) Blackpool service became the 61, and the seasonal Morecambe/Southport services the 62/63. The operations continued on platform 8 as before.
East Midland’s 36ft Reliance/Willowbrook DP fleet number C272 (272 UVO) was new in 1964, and is seen here six years later on platform 8 operating a Yorkshire Services departure to Bradford. (John Stringer)
Platform 9
Although (in theory!) the timings of the Yorkshire Services companies’ twice daily stampedes through Huntingdon Street should have avoided problems with other traffic, experience soon proved that this idea was merely a utopian conceit. United Counties would often have two of their vehicles parked up in the offside lane of platform 8 for extended periods and Hall Bros were equally fond of this as a layover spot for short working duplicates. Then the Yorkshire Services convoy would arrive, only to find the boarding lane blocked by an East Midland double-decker or two as the convoy’s late arrival (due to traffic en route) had placed them into conflict with stage carriage departures. By 1968 enough complaints had been filed with the bus station’s municipal overseers to belatedly stir them into action. The railings between platform 8’s offside lane and the small nose-in car parking area were removed, a shelter erected on the paved area beneath (somehow managing to precisely match the architecture of those erected 20 years earlier on platforms 1-8!) and a sign secured to the lamp-post asserting that this was now platform 9. Basically it was there to provide a “go to” option for express services which could not reach their preferred habitat. At the same time the parking of private vehicles on the bus station (other than a few cars owned by inspectors and other officials) was brought to an end. The practice of mixing car parking with bus manoeuvring areas had never been that wise of a proposition and there had been several accidents over the years, thankfully none of them too serious.
Passing Traffic
Until their all too swift departure in 1966 Nottingham City Transport trolleybuses could be seen at the south end of the bus station, passing the William Booth Memorial Halls on King Edward Street and then either turning right into Bath Street or continuing in a straight line into St Anne’s Well Road. There was also trolleybus overhead wiring on Huntingdon Street, but I never saw it in use and can only presume that it was used by vehicles coming into or out of Parliament Street depot. Apart from the terminating 25/25A the only other corporation motor bus service to use Huntingdon Street was the 51, an irregular service timed to suit the employees of John Player’s tobacco factories on Radford Boulevard. The other end of the route was on Carlton Road, only a few hundred yards beyond NCT’s Parliament Street garage.
After the opening of Broad Marsh in 1952 two new Midland General services found a home there, the F2 to Ilkeston via Kimberley and the F4 to Beauvale Estate. Both of these services bypassed the worst of the city centre traffic by using Huntingdon Street rather than Milton Street, and were usually operated by single-deckers which provided a change from the blue Lodekkas on the bus station itself.
Finally, no account of Huntingdon Street is complete without mention of Hughie’s Cafe, immediately to the north of platform 5. In order to serve as many people as possible in as short a space of time as possible the proprietor had invented his own (more efficient!) way of making tea. Large industrial sized tea-urns were loaded up with tea at such a density that the result was barely fluid. Cups were then placed under the spigot and received an oil-like splash of concentrated tea. The cups were then placed beneath a boiling water heater and the beverage diluted to a more acceptable strength. Yes, it was disgusting, but it was all part of the experience. And Hughie’s prices were very reasonable when compared to those of the far less “colourful” Journeys End cafe in Huntingdon House
Neville Mercer 09/2015
25/09/15 – 09:59
I’d just like to thank Neville Mercer for this 3-Part article. Great reading and appreciable research. I first became imprinted on (initially Barton) buses when a young child in Calverton, so Huntingdon Street bus station has a significant place in my memory.
Stephen Allcroft
25/09/15 – 09:59
Speaking as someone who has lived in Nottingham almost all his life, I’d like to congratulate Neville Mercer on his excellent history of Huntingdon Street bus station. The piece contains a spectacular amount of information and detail, and not confined just to the bus station itself; there’s a fair amount of general history of Nottingham in there as well. We lived on Clifton Estate, so most of my memories of buses were the services which went to Broad Marsh (the old and new versions). But we sometimes went to Nottingham on the South Notts services to Huntingdon Street, so I could be in the background of those 1960s photos.
KC
26/09/15 – 06:03
Thoroughly enjoyed the series on that wonderful place which came to my attention in the mid 60s, travelling from Yorkshire to visit my Grandad in Chilwell. The range of vehicles was amazing: two particular memories are awaiting the massive influx of Hall Bros vehicles on their service, and taking years to unravel the Gothic script fleetname and realise that the Newark-based firm was Gash, not Cash! Such are the misconceptions of youth. And thanks to Neville for at last appraising me of the origins of what I now know to be Lammas Lodge. A building which always fascinated me (but not as much as the Barton vehicles parked near it).
John Carr
27/09/15 – 05:51
Re the South Notts PD3, though the lower deck window layout is a little odd due to the position of the door, I just wonder how many 30 ft double deckers were built with four bay bodies?
Phil Blinkhorn
02/10/15 – 05:56
Neville Mercer, I applaud you for this article. Thank you. Like many other people, I find these have tidied up/triggered off long dormant memories, may I add a few of my own: The Grantham service, which was in my recollection, the only Lincolnshire service to reach Nottingham – how come the “33C” route number – what were routes 33, 33A and 33B? In this context, someone recently tried to explain that suffix A meant Any deviation from the main route B meant terminates Before normal destination C means Continues beyond normal destination D means any other Deviation from normal route Please let this start off another series of theories? Changing the subject, I never twigged that South Notts 76 & 80 (Northern Counties bodied PD3s) were four-bay 30-footers. I suppose they were really more like four-and-a-bit since the upstairs front and back bays were rather long, resulting in the extra bit in front of the entrance doors.
I have enclosed a slide from the late 60s – I suspect the background includes “Lammas Lodge” am I right?
Rob Hancock
03/10/15 – 04:00
This series is absolutely brilliant. I lived in Nottingham or not far from it throughout the 50s, and can remember Huntingdon Street occupied by buses of every hue. Trent predominated, and seemed to be mainly pre-war Regents rebodied by Willowbrook – also I think a few utilities(?) and COG5s. At that time, Trent Leylands only seemed to figure on the No.8 from Derby, which came into Mount Street. Barton was still using a mixture of the famous Duple PD1s and PS1s, second hand PD1s from Leicester (and elsewhere!), and ex-Leeds Roe-bodied Regents and TDs. Midland General hadn’t yet received Lodekkas, and the height restricted route B8 was usually operated by lowbridge Regents of the RLH type. I can recall a trip to Sherwood Forest (Edwinstowe) on the East Midland 36 with a Guy Arab in the old sand-coloured livery. NCT’s 25, 25A and 25B were actually not all that frequent – only about half-hourly at that time, and often still run with the 1938 Met-Cam Regents – later superceded by the very similar 1948/49 batch, followed by the OTV Park Royal series. Interesting question about the Lincolnshire 33C – which again, I remember using about 1952, at which time we had a Bristol K going, and something different (a Leyland?) coming back. I am not certain, but I have a feeling the 33 may have run from Grantham to Bottesford – which would agree with the theory about “extension beyond normal destination” – but I had never heard the idea before. Just a small observation, the NCT 51 was never timetabled to start at Huntingdon Street – though I may have “loitered with intent” before proceeding to its starting point at the junction of Alfred Street South and Carlton Road, about two minutes run away.
Stephen Ford
05/10/15 – 07:10
Many thanks to all who have posted for their kind words. Perhaps I could respond briefly to a couple of the posts. Yes, Rob, that’s Lammas Lodge and you can tell that the photo is taken after 1967 as that was the year in which Barton started using “X” prefixes for its express services. I should say officially, as crews on the 61 to Blackpool were given to displaying “X61” after acquiring the service from Robin Hood six years earlier – presumably as it mimicked the “X60” at the northern end of the route. Speaking of Lammas Lodge, I failed to discover any evidence whatsoever that it was once used as a police station as alleged in a couple of publications which show it in the background of photographs. As far as I can tell it was a park-keepers’ lodge at first, and then when no longer needed for that purpose (as the former park had disappeared beneath the bus station) it was rented out to private tenants. A retired military officer was the tenant in the late 1930s, and then by 1950 the tenant was the widow of a local professional boxer. One website refers to it as “St Michael’s Police Lodge”, but this is clearly wrong. The part of the future Huntingdon St where it was located was originally Millstone Lane. St Michaels Road started three blocks to the north of the site. Also, the only reference I can find on the Web apart from that local nostalgia site, is to a Masonic “St Michaels Police Lodge” in suburban London. Does anybody know any differently from authoritative sources (ie, not just repetitions on different sites of the original assertions?) Moving on to the NCT route 51, I never actually said that it started at the bus station, but that it passed along Huntingdon Street between the terminal points as named. Perhaps I could have put it more clearly but by that stage deadlines were looming! Once again, thanks to everybody, particularly to Stephen for the 1950s reminiscences.
Neville Mercer
06/10/15 – 07:01
Well, you live and learn! I had never realised that the NCT 51 ever went along Huntingdon Street (except the very north end, far beyond the bus station). Its traditional route was to head straight up Alfred Street (south, central and north) turning right onto Huntingdon Street just short of where it merges into Mansfield Road. The evidence was on my bookshelves in the 1971 timetable. Following the demolition and re-development of the St Anns area, Alfred Street ceased to be a through road. Thereafter the 51 started along Alfred Street south, then left onto St Anns Well Road, past the bus station, and left again (southwards) down Huntingdon Street, right into Lower Parliament Street, right into Glasshouse Street (back of where the Victoria station used to be) and left, back into Huntingdon Street (now heading north) just above the bus station – a long way round to go nowhere, no doubt caused by one way traffic restrictions.
Stephen Ford
30/10/15 – 06:33
Neville, An interesting series of articles, thank you. Nottingham City Transport service 19 started operation from Huntingdon Street to Lenton Abbey Estate from 24/11/29. From 28/11/37 it was extended to Gordon Road/Dowson Street (the area known as Bluebell Hill) still operating via Huntingdon Street bus station. From February 1939 it was further extended to Porchester Road/Haywood Road, before being curtailed to St. Ann’s Hospital from July 1939. Service 19 was altered to run between the Old Market Square and Lenton Abbey Estate from 06/05/45. Service 25 started operation from Huntingdon Street from 15/11/31. All journeys, whether via Carlton Road or Mansfield Road operated as service 25, the a suffix for Mansfield Road journeys was not used until 1944.During the 1960s journeys outwards via Carlton Road operated as service 25 and retained this number when returning inwards via Mansfield Road to Huntingdon Street. Journeys outwards via Mansfield Road operated as service 25a and retained this number when returning inwards via Carlton Road to Huntingdon Street. Short workings to Westdale Lane Top via Carlton Road used service number 25b were introduced from 12/04/53.During the 1960s the service frequency was better than the 30 minute headway suggested by Stephen . Although this headway applied on Sundays the off peak frequency (all via Carlton Road) was every 20 minutes, with a combined ten minute peak service via Carlton Road operated by service 25/25b and every 20 minutes via Mansfield Road. Services 25/25a/25b moved to Queen Street in the city centre from March 1972. Barton’s service 14 to Ruddington operated from Broad Marsh not Huntingdon Street. It was the 54 to Clifton via Ruddington that operated from Huntingdon Street. Barton’s service 12 to Leicester also called at Broad Marsh on the way to and from Leicester. The new Broad Marsh bus station opened on 31/10/71 and South Notts and Gash transferred their Loughborough and Newark services to Broad Marsh from Huntingdon Street from that date. I can’t think why NCT service 51 figures in the discussions as during the 1960s it operated via Alfred Street south, central and north and only used the short section of Huntingdon Street between Alfred Street north and Mansfield Road, which was some distance from Huntingdon Street bus station. There was a third catering facility at Huntingdon Street in addition to Hughie’s Cafe and Journey’s End. This was not available to the general public as it was Trent’s staff canteen located behind the Trent booking office and was available to all bus crews using the bus station.
Michael Elliott
30/01/16 – 18:42
To Neville, Thanks for the enthralling series. As one who does not know Nottingham at all, how much if anything is left of the area ? I am not of course expecting any of the wonderful vehicles to be seen but if an opportunity arose to visit Nottingham are there any of the buildings still extant or has modernisation totally wiped the area clean of all traces. Thanks for any information.
Not seen the beginning of this article click here.
At the outbreak of the Second World War in September 1939, Nottingham’s Central Bus Station was in much the same condition as when it was built ten years earlier. There were still no shelters or seating on the eight platforms, and the only undercover accommodation for passengers was to be found at the south-eastern end, directly across from Platform 4. This area had a makeshift shelter (albeit on the only paved area in the bus station which had no departures!), a waiting room, some fairly disgusting toilets, and two phone boxes. This lack of any civilised facilities created good business for the two cafes adjacent to the bus station, and despite its exposure to the elements the ten year old site was already well over capacity. This was in part the City council’s fault as it continued to insist that all non-municipal services had to use the bus station, whether they actually wanted to or not. Street termini were to be the exclusive right of corporation vehicles.
Mount Street
The war might have been expected to ease the capacity problem, given that stage carriage services were slashed by 30% or more, but the missing timings on the traditional routes gave way to a host of vehicles provided for the military and for workers in local industries crucial to the war effort. Something had to be done and Nottingham City Council came up with a plan to establish a second bus station. This opened on a totally unsuitable hillside site at Mount Street in October 1944 and consisted of three platforms, curiously designated as 4, 5, and 6 – perhaps it was originally intended to be twice as large and nobody could be bothered to change the plans. On the positive side it had bus shelters on every platform. On the negative side the shelters’ canopies were made out of asbestos, seen as a perfectly acceptable material at that time.
As a result of this new competition the Central Bus Station became Huntingdon Street Bus Station. Services which left the city centre in a quadrant from the Hucknall road to the north to the River Trent in the west were transferred to Mount Street. The services which moved included Barton’s mainline routes to Castle Donington (3), Swadlincote (3C), Derby (5), Loughborough (10), and Coalville (11), Trent’s service 8 to Derby and their 60/61 to Hucknall and Mansfield, and Midland General’s B1 to Ripley, B2 to Cotmanhay, B3 to Alfreton, B4 to South Normanton, C5 to Alfreton, and C8 to Ilkeston. A further migrant was Midland Red’s X99 to Birmingham.
These services in total amounted to around 35% of Huntingdon Street’s traffic and their transfer made things far more manageable. But, as they say, nature abhors a vacuum and the return of peace in 1945 brought new problems. After six years of misery the general public wanted to travel and the space vacated by the Mount Street refugees was quickly commandeered by massive numbers of duplicates on the express services to the east and west coasts. In the early pre-war era Platform 1 was wholly occupied by Nottingham City Transport. Originally this area had played host to NCT services 19/22/25/25A, but the 19 to Lenton Abbey had been transferred to a street terminus on the Old Market Square (or “Slab Square” as it is universally known by locals) and the 22 to Hucknall had been eliminated at an early stage by an agreement with Trent. The remaining 25/25A circulars to Thackeray’s Lane were frequent but hardly justified their own platform.
Meanwhile Platform 2 was severely over-crowded at times of peak leisure travel. The problem was that Barton’s own high frequency 7/7A/8 to Epperstone/Calverton/Oxton had a continuous presence on the platform, which was also used by Barton’s twice daily service 9 to Skegness. A photograph taken in 1947 and used in several books shows a row of five brand-new Barton PD1A/Duple L55F double-deckers, all bound for Skegness on a single departure, completely blocking the platform with no local service vehicles in sight. Barton’s allocated platforms after the mass departure to Mount Street were numbers 2 and 3 (with the other independents using Platform 4), and Platform 3 could provide little relief as it was already full of Barton services heading across Trent Bridge to Melton Mowbray (2), Keyworth (6), Leicester (12), Ruddington (14), and the Vale of Belvoir villages (22/23/24/26). The northern half of the bus station could offer no alternative accommodation as it was already full of Midland General and Trent services along with a plethora of express routes.
As a partial solution Barton’s Skegness service was allowed on to Corporation turf at the rear end of Platform 1, with duplicates queuing alongside (but facing in the opposite direction) along Huntingdon Street itself. This proved to be a wise move as traffic soared to even greater heights in the late 1940s and early 1950s with Barton’s line-up of Skegness duplicates often reaching the northern end of the bus station with further vehicles waiting to emerge from the parking area next to Lammas Lodge. All of this traffic must have been good for the municipal coffers as shelters were finally erected on Huntingdon Street’s platforms in early 1949.
Two of South Notts’ Northern Counties bodied Lowlanders (82/82 SVO and 87 /FRR 87D) are seen here, driverless and completely blocking Platform 4. Parking discipline was never very good at Huntingdon Street! (John J Holmes)
Broad Marsh
An even bigger change was on the way. The Council had decided that two bus stations were no longer enough, especially in light of its decision to build a major new housing estate at Clifton to the south of the city. This would require many more new bus services and as these were to be operated jointly by NCT, West Bridgford UDC, and a privately owned operator (South Notts), the use of the Corporation’s carefully guarded street termini was unthinkable. On the other hand Huntingdon Street was now almost as full as it had been before the opening of Mount Street (which was also full and had overflowed into neighbouring side streets), so the Council bit the bullet and authorised the opening of a third bus station at Broad Marsh, to the south of the city centre.
It was ordained that this new development would accommodate all bus services leaving the city via Trent Bridge, but this soon caused rumblings of discontent from all concerned. The mass eviction to Mount Street had taken place during wartime, and it would have been unpatriotic to make too much of a fuss, but this was peacetime and there was talk of possible legal action by Barton and others if the Council attempted to send them to Broad Marsh against their will. A compromise was reached, with each operator being allowed to choose one service crossing Trent Bridge which could continue to be served from Huntingdon Street. Short workings and variations of those routes were also to be allowed to stay. Gash nominated both of their services to Newark, South Notts their workings towards Loughborough, Trent the 65/66 to Bunny and Loughborough, and Barton the 12 to Leicester. In the case of the latter three operators there was a reason for their choice of routes. Huntingdon Street was to the north of the city centre, and only 5 minutes walk away from Nottingham Victoria railway station. Regular train services connected this station to both Loughborough and Leicester, and if the competing bus services had been forced to move to Broad Marsh they would undoubtedly have lost some traffic to the trains.
The new Broad Marsh bus station opened in January 1952, and in addition to the entirely new services from the Clifton Estate became a haven for Barton’s services to Melton Mowbray, Keyworth, and the Vale of Belvoir, although for some unknown reason the Belvoir routes had a brief stay at Mount Street before transferring to Broad Marsh. A brand-new Barton service to Clifton via Ruddington (54) also used Broad Marsh, but their existing route to Ruddington (14) was allowed to stay at Huntingdon Street as it competed with Trent’s 65/66. After all of the departures Trent became the largest operator at Huntingdon Street, with Barton departures limited to the 7/7A/8 local services, the 12 to Leicester, the 14 to Ruddington, and the express routes to Skegness (9) and Llandudno (34). Despite this statistical fact, at any given time there were still far more Barton vehicles on the bus station than Trent ones. This anomaly was accounted for by the limitations of Huntingdon Street garage, across the road, which had no parking area of its own and used the bus station as a turn-out and layover facility. Most of the services transferred to Broad Marsh were still worked by Nottingham garage, either wholly or in part, and vehicles showing route numbers for the Vale of Belvoir cluster of routes could often be found alongside Lammas Lodge as late as the 1970s.
The Gash route to Newark via the main road was usually operated by double-deckers well into the 1970s, but here is their 36ft Leopard/Willowbrook saloon LO7 (YNN 650H) at Huntingdon Street to provide a little variety. (John J Holmes)
The Rise of the Shopping Centres
In the mid-1960s drastic changes came again. The City council decided that all of its bus stations should be situated next to shopping centres and sites were earmarked as an integral part of new city centre retail developments. The first of these schemes to be approved, Victoria Centre, was an ambitious plan to redevelop the site of Nottingham’s Victoria Railway Station. The station had been opened in 1900, jointly financed by the Great Central and Great Northern companies, and became the Nottingham halt for the GCR’s express services from Manchester and Sheffield to London (Marylebone). These lines competed directly with the Midland Railway’s services from their station at Carrington Street, to the south of the city centre, and by the 1960s the old GCR routes were seen as ripe for elimination by the infamous Dr Beeching. The London expresses came to an end in 1966, leaving only a six times daily service to Rugby operated by DMUs. It was a pitiful end for a station with 12 platforms, and the facility closed completely in September 1967. Demolition was swift, although the station clock tower on Milton Street survived, and work began almost immediately on the construction of the new shopping mall. The scale of the development was certainly impressive. As well as the retail units there were 26 storey flats above the centre, providing more than 400 homes, vast multi-level car parks, and a new (completely undercover) bus station.
Those of us who loved Huntingdon Street watched the new shopping centre rising from the ashes of the railway station with great trepidation, as its completion would surely spell the end of the neighbouring site. Fortunately I was spared the final rites as by 1970 I was the singer in a (semi-professional!) rock band, and musical commitments in Manchester at the weekends made visits to Nottingham, or anywhere else, few and far between. Huntingdon Street closed, without me to mourn it, in early 1972 (does anybody know the exact date?). My next journey to Nottingham, later in the same year, deposited me at the new Victoria Bus Station. It was horrible, in a Digbeth Coach Station sort of way but without the primitive charm, and was made even worse by the creeping advance of NBC poppy red and leaf green. I decided to take a look at the old site and was happy to discover that the parking ground by Lammas Lodge was still full of Barton vehicles. Barton rented this area from the City council until 1977 when their lease was terminated so that the site could be used as an enlarged surface car park. This was rather ironic as a much smaller surface parking area had previously existed at the northern end of the power station and alongside Platform 8. Despite having room for no more than 25 vehicles this had been supervised by a man in a hut. The development of a new Platform 9 in the late 1960s (and an increasing need for bus parking) had finally eliminated this facility. The Barton garage across the road survived until 1980 when most of its vehicles were moved back to Chilwell (from whence their predecessors had come way back in 1939).
The other two bus stations suffered similar fates. Redevelopment at Mount Street began in 1965 and the “traditional” bus station (I’m trying to be kind about it!) closed in 1968. For two years its services were scattered onto Maid Marian Way and other local thoroughfares before the completion of the new facility, another piece of nasty concrete modernism with no soul. More embarrassingly the shopping development adjacent to the new Mount Street Bus Station found it hard to find tenants (being separated from the rest of the city centre by a dual carriageway) and the entire place had that kind of virtually deserted futuristic look that made you expect an attack by Daleks. The bus companies didn’t like it much either. Barton gave it short shrift, moving their services to the new Broad Marsh within two years. Trent were next to go (in 1973), taking Midland Red’s X99 with them to Victoria. Mount Street became a Midland General mono-culture and closed in 1980, only ten years after its opening. It was not replaced and the remaining services went to Victoria. The new version of Broad Marsh (now attached to a shopping centre of the same name) opened in October 1971 and was an improvement for everyone except bus photographers, the previous pleasing skyline in the background of their Broad Marsh shots having been replaced by artificial lighting and a multi-storey car park where the sky should be. My fondness for the new Broad Marsh might have been influenced by events in my own life. In September 1973 I moved to Nottingham to be the singer in a new band, and a year later met my first wife in the city. We married in November (eight weeks after our first meeting) and – being impoverished – used a South Notts Lowlander on the Clifton Estate service to transport the wedding party from the registry office to our cheap and cheerful reception at a friend’s flat in Wilford. Well-wishers ensured that there was an abundance of confetti on Broad Marsh Bus Station.
As always seems to happen with my articles, this one has run well beyond its originally intended length. Part Three will draw this reminiscence to a close with a platform-by-platform survey of Huntingdon Street’s attractions between 1964 and 1972. If you have any good quality photographs taken at the bus station during those years I’d be delighted to see them and include them.
At the age of 11, like most healthy children, I started lying to my parents. I was allowed the freedom to travel to Manchester Airport (for the planes) or the city centre (for the buses), but any travels further afield had to be negotiated and in all cases I had to be home by 6pm. This did not fit in with my enthusiasm for buses as friends had already seduced me with tales of far-flung destinations such as Nottingham’s rightly famous Huntingdon Street Bus Station. In December 1964 I finally reached this exotic site at the extreme range of a believable lie (“the bus hasn’t turned up at Ringway, so I won’t be home until sevenish..”), It was well worth the risk.
I’d previously used the X2 limited stop service, operated jointly by North Western and Trent, to visit Bakewell and Matlock. The relatively early first departure (08:15 from Manchester’s Lower Mosley St Bus Station) made these intermediate locations “do-able” within my time limits, but Nottingham was more than three hours away. Even four hours in Nottingham would mean an arrival back at Lower Mosley St at 18:39 and then I had to get back to suburban Sale on MCTD’s service 47. It added up to seven and a half hours of travelling for four hours at the other end. To any non-enthusiast it sounds a little strange, but I used to do the journey quite regularly in 1965 -1969, often continuing to Chilwell, Gotham, or Newark during my four hours in Nottinghamshire. Wherever I was ultimately headed a stop at Huntingdon Street was always an added bonus.
The route from Manchester to Nottingham was equally fascinating, with vehicles from Hulley, Silver Service, and Sheffield JOC visible in Bakewell and those of Silver Service, East Midland, and Midland General in Matlock. More Midland General buses could be noted in Ripley, and then in Ilkeston came the first whiff of the Barton empire with their high frequency services to the nearby Kirk Hallam housing estate. The 08:15 from Manchester finally arrived in Huntingdon Street at around 11:25 (15 minutes early), most crews tearing up the timetable after picking up their final passengers in Matlock. The vehicle (usually a 41 seat Alexander Z type “Highlander” by 1964 – 66) would then park up opposite Platform 4, alongside the buildings almost universally known to bus enthusiasts as “The Tram Depot”. Which they weren’t (and never had been), but we’ll get to that shortly. Before we move on I should explain that Millstone Lane (Huntingdon St to be) actually ran from the NNW to the SSE, but for the purposes of this article will be treated as if it ran North to South and the cross streets from east to west. It’s easier for all of us.
History and Geography
The area of Nottingham where the future bus station would be sited was more than a little bit rough in the Victorian era. The part of the city bounded by Millstone Lane (renamed Huntingdon Street in 1931), King Edward Street, St Ann’s Well Road, Curzon Street, and St Marks Street, was occupied by a mixture of back-to-back tenement buildings and low-rent commercial premises thrown up in a hurry during the Industrial Revolution. The land which became the southern half of the bus station (platforms 1-4) was previously taken up by no less than five dead-end streets of densely populated terraces leading east from Millstone Lane. At their eastern end they abutted against similar housing on four much longer terraced streets leading northwards from King Edward St/St Ann’s Well Road. Running east-west at the northern end of this parcel of land was Curzon Place, which originally ran through from Curzon Street to Millstone Lane until the western half was eliminated and became the central driveway between the northern and southern halves of the bus station.
Poor quality commercial buildings including warehousing, some fairly ramshackle shops, and two pubs occupied the western side of Millstone Lane for the full length of the future bus station. On the eastern side of Millstone Lane, to the north of Curzon Place and to the south of the buildings on the next east-west road (St Marks St), a recreation ground or small park was provided for the benighted tenants of the local slums. This area was created in the late 1850s by a private benefactor who gave the land to the City council. Funds were also provided for the construction of a “lodge” at the northern end of the recreation ground with a clock tower, a kitchen for the production of drinks and snacks, a storage area for tables and chairs (which were deployed in appropriate weather conditions to the paved area outside of the lodge which included a scenic fountain), and residential accommodation for the park-keeper and his family. This was completed in 1860 and known as Lammas Lodge.
Redevelopment is so last century
A major slum clearance scheme removed all of the terraced housing on the streets at the southern end of the future bus station in the late 1890s, the residents being moved to more hygienic estates further out from the city centre. The long dead-end streets heading northwards gave way to an edifice symbolic of the new technological age. Nottingham was in the process of electrifying its tramways and power was needed, both for this purpose and for use in the adjacent residential areas along St Ann’s Well Rd. The north-south terraces were replaced by the St Ann’s Well Road Electricity Generating Station (aka “The Tram Depot”), opened in 1902 along with the electrified line which passed its front doors, The architecture of the two original buildings was identical to that of the city’s new tram sheds at Sherwood (opened in 1900), which may have been the source of later confusion about the buildings’ original purpose. Despite the architectural similarities the St Ann’s Well Road facility contained motor generation units for Direct Current power production rather than anything on bogies. A third building was added shortly before the First World War, adjoining the northern half of the original two structures on their western side. This was built to house the ancillary (road) vehicles needed to maintain the city’s tramways.
Other redevelopment work was taking place in the area. On the south side of King Edward St the Salvation Army built an impressive structure known as The William Booth Memorial Halls in 1915, commemorating the organisation’s founder who had died three years earlier. The building’s bell tower, with its distinctive dome at the top, provided background scenery for many a photograph taken at the bus station’s southern end in years to come.
At this point in time the southern half of the future bus station was vacant land alongside the power station, while the northern half was still a recreation ground although the population it was designed to serve had already been transplanted elsewhere. Things remained in this state until the mid-1920s when the City council decided to redevelop the entire area. The western side of Millstone Lane, between King Edward St and Kent Street (the next side road heading west) was then designated as the site of a new Central Market. This was a very large oblong building with Millstone Lane on one of its short sides. Its longer side took up the entire length of Kent St to its junction with Glasshouse St, the next north-south thoroughfare to the west alongside Victoria railway station. The new market opened to the public in 1928.
Photographer unknown – this image is an enlargement from an uncredited 10 x 8 print I bought in a Nottingham junk-shop about 30 years ago.
In this mid 1930s aerial shot Huntingdon Street is running from south (top right) to north (bottom left). Slightly to the left of centre at the top are the William Booth Memorial Halls with the distinctive bell-tower, situated on the corner of King Edward St and Bath St, and a Nottingham Corporation trolleybus is visible turning into Bath St. At this junction King Edward St continued to the left as St Ann’s Well Road. The power station buildings are visible on the left hand side of the photograph, the shorter one alongside the bus station being built after the other two to house maintenance vehicles. By the time of this photograph it was already in its second incarnation as a covered municipal car park. The remains of Curzon Place are out of shot, but the north (bottom) end of the power station and the dividing driveway between the two halves of the bus station indicate its original alignment. Just out of shot on the left hand side is the distinctive Lammas Lodge. On the right hand side of the photograph the extremely large building is the Central Market, bounded by King Edward St, Huntingdon St, and Kent St which divides it from Huntingdon House to the north. The change of roof-line level in the middle of the Kent St side of Huntingdon House marks the site of the Dutton’s bus garage, later used by Trent. Continuing downwards on Huntingdon St, Rick Street is on the side of Huntingdon House closest to the bottom of the photograph. Across the road a vacant lot is just visible at bottom left. This helps to date the photograph as this lot became the site of the new Barton Transport building and garage in 1939.
And now (you might be glad to hear!) we finally get to the bus station. Until 1929 Nottingham had no official municipal bus station. Most operators (including the council itself) used street stands while others clung to their private parking grounds to avoid the need for licences from the council’s Watch Committee. The bus industry, however, was booming by the late 1920s and a similar rise in the number of goods vehicles and private cars entering the city was contributing to severe congestion. Shortly after the formal opening of the market the council announced the establishment of a new “Central Bus Station” on the opposite side of Millstone Lane. The derelict land alongside the power station became its southern half (platforms 1-4), the western half of Curzon Place was closed to traffic and became its central east-west driveway, and the redundant recreation ground was paved over to become the northern half of the bus station, consisting of platforms 5-8 and a parking area to the east which stretched from the power station’s northern edge over to Lammas Lodge (which survived the elimination of the park it had been built to serve). Pedestrian access from the truncated Curzon Place to Millstone Lane was provided by a public footpath which skirted the northern edge of the new bus station site, passing Lammas Lodge. The end of the surviving half of Curzon Place will be familiar from many photographs taken in the bus parking area. To the south, adjacent to the power station on St Ann’s Well Road was a small car park at the back of the New Empress cinema (a bingo hall in later years). The original Empress on King Edward St had been demolished to make way for the Central Market and the new site offered in part compensation. On the north side of Curzon Place a fairly modest two storey building had a large sign on its gable end proclaiming it to be the premises of the Nottingham Butchers Products & Casing Co. In pre-war years it had been owned by a dairy products wholesaler called Colton.
The new bus station opened in late 1929, but despite extensive research over the years I have never been able to pin down the exact date. Any offers? Almost all of the non-municipal bus services had relocated to the bus station before the end of the year. Barton was particularly enthusiastic, having previously used three separate sites scattered around the city centre, and the Barton family sometimes claimed credit for the creation of the new facility as their founder had first suggested the idea in 1926. To be honest, it seems doubtful that nobody thought of the idea before him. The establishment of the bus station gave further impetus to the redevelopment of Millstone Lane. In 1930 work began on a major new office building on the block between Kent St and Rick Street (the next side street to the north). This was completed in 1931 and named Huntingdon House to reflect the new name of the street which it stood upon. The council had redeveloped Millstone Lane itself by merging it with St Michael’s Road (to the north) and Cross Street (to the south) to create what would later be termed an “inner city relief road” under the new name of Huntingdon Street. The bus terminal continued to be known as the Central Bus Station until 1943 when the opening of a second facility at Mount Street required a more specific title for the first.
Trent Motor Traction became the first tenant of Huntingdon House, using the ground floor unit at the corner of Huntingdon St and Kent St as a booking office. Other tenants were slower to arrive due to the economic turndown of the Great Depression, and for many years the entire frontage of the building carried “Trent” signs above the unrented ground floor units as if it was wholly theirs. By the late 1930s tenants had been found and introduced their own shop signs. Meanwhile Trent had also secured a small garage in the area by the purchase of Dutton’s Unity Service in 1935. This brought a frequent service to Sutton-in-Ashfield (which became Trent route number 84) and the lease of Dutton’s garage on Kent Street, facing the Central Market. Despite having an existing (and much larger) Nottingham garage at Manvers Street, ten minutes walk away, Trent retained the Kent Street premises until at least the 1960s.
Trent’s new premises in Huntingdon House and Kent Street seemed to spur two other operators into action. Barton built their own premises (including offices and a garage) on Huntingdon Street between Rick Street and the next side road to the north, Howard Street, and this opened in 1939. Not to be outdone, Robin Hood Coaches moved their head office and garage to new premises in Huntingdon St in the same year, occupying the site on the far side of Howard St. In the kind of dreadful terminology used by present-day urban planners, Huntingdon St had become “The Bus Company Quarter” with the offices and garages of all three operators visible from the bus station.
In Part Two of this article I will be completing the history of the bus station between 1939 and 1964 and then giving a platform by platform tour of the Huntingdon Street I knew from personal experience. If you can contribute any photographs taken at the bus station between 1964 and 1971 they would be very much appreciated.
Very interesting, Neville, although I’ve never been to Nottingham; indeed large, or even small bus stations seem to have eluded my life, apart from Preston. Were they more of a Northern thing? There is some information and some more photos at this link: http://nottstalgia.com/forums/
Chris Hebbron
17/09/15 – 06:08
Great article, Neville. I’m looking forward to the next bit. Well, Mr Hebbron, I have at least managed to visit Nottingham on two occasions, one a school trip to Trent Bridge and the other for a cousin’s wedding. No, young Sir, bus stations are not just to be found in ‘northern’ areas. Amesbury, in the depths of Wiltshire, has one! Other places in this area include Fareham, Gosport and Portsmouth. Lymington and Salisbury have closed in the last couple of years. Down in the south west, Tiverton has one.
Pete Davies
18/09/15 – 05:59
I could have put it more clearly, Pete, but I was really concentrating on large bus stations, like Nottingham and that awesome video of the last bus departure at Sheffield Bus Station in the 80’s! Portsmouth’s modern one is a shadow of the municipal(trolley)buses just parked in the road adjacent to it up, until harbour reclamation made the new station possible. Southdown’s was just a row of buses along the sea front at South Parade Pier. No bus stations and no conveniences at all! Gosport/Fareham/Guildford/Pool Valley, Brighton were modest, by comparison. Even today, Gloucester has one with about 10 bays and Cheltenham a strange half-hearted one rooted in the late 1940’s, minus any facilities, in a cramped semi-circle only half-used and other buses stopping elsewhere in an adjacent street. Finally, London had certain places where routes conglomerated by ending/passing by, that you could call termini, but not actual bus stations that I could recall up to the 60’s and some that I’m still aware of have not changed. Victoria Rail Station forecourt was/is probably the one exception. It raises the question; what is the most outstandingly good bus station, architecturally, that anyone is aware of, even if it has now been demolished? Something of St Pancras or even impressive art-deco standard might be asking too much, but we some of us must have come across something that stands out. Worst ones can also be mentioned. My worst one was the Midland Red one which formed part of Birmingham’s Bull Ring, a vast semi-underground edifice with no windows, sparse fluorescent lights about 30 feet above the ground, dangerously narrow islands and a permanently wet floor and damp atmosphere. it rarely seemed to have more than three or four buses in there, although it probably had capacity for about thirty. It’s gone now, unlamented and forgotten by all, even by me, until a few minutes ago! Will I ever recover from this sudden nightmare memory???
Chris Hebbron
18/09/15 – 10:17
No worries, Chris. Go and sit in a darkened room and keep taking the tablets.
Pete Davies
The north v south divide ? Hants and Dorset had a large bus station in Bournemouth, with all the facilities to be expected, following the 1959 rebuild even a ‘proper’ restaurant. H&D also had bus stations ‘with facilities’ such as toilets, enquiry offices and the like at Poole (although the actual stops there were along the road, rather than on a dedicated piece of land), Southampton and Winchester. Further to the west, bus stations ‘with facilities’ come to mind at Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth, Camborne, Truro in the Southern/Western National area; to the north of the H&D area, Bristol Omnibus had stations at Bristol, Bath, and Gloucester ( larger than the present arrangement); whilst Wilts and Dorset had bus stations at Salisbury, Andover, Basingstoke and Amesbury; to the east, Southdown at Chichester and Lewes come to mind. There were others, of course. Being from the ‘south’, on visits to the ‘north’ my impression was rather different to Neville’s !! On making a first visit to Dinnington, (south Yorkshire) and the timetable saying ‘bus station’, I looked for a structure similar to those found in my ‘home’ area. Eventually I found the bus shelter (or was it 2) that were the relevant location. From memory, the bus stations in some ‘Woollen District’ towns, like Dewsbury and, I think, Heckmondwike,were of the same style. In Sheffield, Pond Street in the 1960s looked rather like a collection of huts – not an ‘imposing facility’ suitable for a large city. Similarly, on the other side of the Pennines, Lower Moseley Street or Piccadilly in Manchester also seemed like a set of bus shelters – again not a ‘proper bus station’ as I was used to find in H&D territory !! In truth, I think there were some good bus stations ‘up north’ and also ‘down south’ – and some pretty dismal provision in both as well. (in the H&D area, Woolston was pretty sparse!).
As to ‘iconic’, maybe the 1930s architecture of the original part of Bournemouth’s bus station would be a candidate – image attached is from a commercial postcard of the period in my collection, whilst the post rebuild horseshoe platform worked well – no reversing from sawtooth bays, and a continuous sheltered walkway / waiting area for passengers, separated from moving buses.
Peter Delaney
19/09/15 – 06:21
With reference to Chris Hebbrons comments about the best and worst Bus Stations. I recently obtained pictures of the ‘New’ Bus Station at Feethams, Darlington, Co Durham, operated by United Automobile Services Ltd. This was opened in 1962 and replaced open stands previously situated in the Leadyard. The new Bus Station when opened was completely roofed over and had a central heating system, with 15 departure platforms. A ventilation system kept the air, fresh and free from exhaust fumes, at least this was in the early years. It quickly gained a reputation, for being a somewhat ‘smelly and unpleasant place’, as the building doubled as a Garage, and maintenance facility, with a workshop with 3 pits for inspection and repairs, as well as the Bus Station. Passenger facilities consisted of an Enquiry Office, a Left Luggage Office, Toilets, and a Cafè. Above which were the offices of the Area Traffic Superintendent, and his staff. 60 vehicles could be housed in the Garage. The ‘Darlington Bus Wars’ after de-regulation, meant that the use of the Bus Station decreased to mainly National Express, and Excursion, and Holiday coaches, with Service buses increasingly using street stands. After numerous planning applications were submitted to the Borough Council (who owned the land and building) it granted planning permission for a Hotel, Leisure Facilities, with various Restaurants and Quick food establishments, and a Multiplex Cinema. After serving the travelling public of Darlington for 47 years, demolition took place in 2009, and the land was used as a Car Park until building commenced in 2014.
Stephen Howarth
19/09/15 – 06:22
My own recollections of Huntingdon Street are limited to a couple of return trips I made from Newark by W.Gash when visiting RAF Swinderby on an ATC summer camp in 1961. My pictures of Gash Daimlers taken in Huntingdon Street may be found elsewhere on OBP – the Freeline shot clearly shows the William Booth Memorial Hall in the background. In terms of sheer variety, this must surely have been one of the most engrossing bus stations in the land. Chris H has raised the question of nominating the worst bus stations. Yes, I agree about Birmingham Bull Ring, but Northampton Greyfriars was every bit its equal in its representation of Hell. Others that come to mind include the one at Reading, and the abomination at Corby (with its ineradicable aroma of reprocessed late night liquid refreshment). Of the better ones, I always liked the old bus stations at Aldershot and Guildford Farnham Road, both now gone under “development”, surely one of the most misapplied words of the age.
Roger Cox
19/09/15 – 06:23
I took a walk round to Huntingdon Street a couple of year’s ago: the Barton depot was still recognisable (and, taking out the space occupied by the ground-floor booking offices, surprisingly small), the Robin Hood depot still existed, and I’m pretty sure Huntingdon House was there – although I was looking for a bus depot as I didn’t realise the Trent depot was down a side street. I can’t remember what was on the bus station side. I’m in Nottingham in a couple of weeks time, so I can have another look with the benefit of Neville’s article to guide me . . . or, as I’ve just realised, I could do it all tonight with the help of Google Streetview. Regarding YWD bus stations: Dewsbury and Cleckheaton were (at least until they fell into decline in the 1970s) pretty substantial affairs with crew rest-rooms, tobacconists, and enquiry offices; Batley and Ossett were pretty grim, being a few islands of pre-cast concrete shelters, although Batley did have an enquiry office until the mid-70s(?); but Heckmondwike never has had a bus station. Nelson bus station reminded me, in one respect at least, of Bull Ring Bus Station – narrow platforms without any railings, and in Nelson’s case serving both sides . . . at least, although it was under a multi-storey car park, it wasn’t as fume-ridden as Bull Ring. A new bus station has replaced the Nelson facility, but the old bus station still exists preserved exactly as the day it closed.
Philip Rushworth
20/09/15 – 06:47
There was more than one Nelson bus station, Philip! Down in South Wales there is also a Nelson which was once served by Caerphilly, West Mon, Pontypridd and Gelligaer as well as Red and White. It was quite a small affair and built on the site of the Pontypridd to Nelson & Llancaiach railway which once ran in a cutting here. As you can see from the photograph the bus station was a fairly basic affair and despite the impressive list of operators not actually all that busy – the four municipalities had all been involved in the purchase of local operator Commercial Motor Services of Treharris. The joint operation that ensued saw some of them only appearing on certain days of the week. By the time of my photo (1978) it was served by Rhymney Valley, Islwyn and National Welsh.
David Beilby
31/10/15 – 08:16
The question about large bus stations being largely a northern feature is interesting. To a large extent it is a result of the way population is spread around, but there is also to some extent the question of how individual local authorities reacted to providing for bus services. The south of England has generally fewer really large towns and cities where a large bus station might be required. Bristol, the largest, managed with on street stops for local services, and essentially all the larger places were surrounded with rural areas where lower density of traffic meant that even quite extensive networks could be catered for with relatively small bus stations or a series of separated on-street locations. By contrast, consider the number of places served from somewhere like Pond Street in Sheffield and their populations, with high frequency services and large passenger volumes. Of larger bus stations in the south, Bournemouth has already been mentioned, but the one large one that comes to mind – partly because it was used by city services as well as longer distance ones is Cardiff, illustrated as attached in 1969.
Alan Murray-Rust
02/11/15 – 06:33
I paid a visit to Nottingham a couple of weeks ago, and had a poke around the Huntingdon Street area – it’s eerily deserted these days, hard to think of it as a public transport hub really. Huntingdon House is still standing, but completely anonymous (I suppose it might be used for office accommodation), as are the Barton and Robin Hood depots – last time I visited (about 5 years ago) the doors to the Barton Depot were open, and behind the elaborate frontage/offices it is really quite a small depot; the doorways to Robin Hood depot have been modified to take metal roller-shutters – it might still be in use, but there were no signs of life – but they weren’t overly wide and access onto the narrowish public road must have been tight as vehicle sizes increased. Trent’s Kent St depot has been demolished, but the replacement building appears to follow the same roof-line, and seems to have a mews/carriage-entrance roughly where the depot entrance would have been. Neville’s article got me thinking – did many towns boast three bus stations? Well, I think Guildford did until the current Friary Centre bus station was built (and am I correct in thinking that the mixture of end-on bays and that line of run-through bays at the “top end” [the ones that look a like an after-thought] were a result of LCBS drivers refusing to use the end-on loading bays?), Glasgow? Liverpool? Manchester? all might fit the bill . . . Leeds, Newcastle, and Scarborough could muster four, if you include the coach stations in Leeds and Newcastle (which in Leeds’s case also serviced the coastal limited-stop services). Any more for four?/advance on four?? Didn’t Leigh boast two bus stations at one time – one LUT, one municipal? Was that the smallest town with more than one bus station??
Philip Rushworth
03/11/15 – 06:37
Another town with three bus stations was Doncaster. North andSouth bus stations were both underneath multi storey car parks whilst the favourite of many enthusiasts was Christchurch , the home of a number of the many Doncaster independent operators.
Andrew Charles
03/11/15 – 14:55
Three Doncaster Bus Stations: up to a point, Charles but you need to go further back! For many years there were Marshgate and North Bridge in the north and Waterdale in the South. Christchurch was really a streetside bus terminus, I think, in which it joined a few other spots around town used by the Corporation. Only North Bridge was wired for tracklesses (to use the local parlance). The revealing thing is that Doncaster did not have north-south through routes as the A1 was so slow through the town that you might as well walk it. Only later were bus stations built for troglodytes.
Joe
04/11/15 – 06:31
All of this talk about Doncaster! In the really dim and distant past, the opposite end of the Trent 64/East Midland 36 from Nottingham Huntingdon Street, was Doncaster Glasgow Paddocks. Where was that, and how did it fit into this plethora of bus stations?!
Stephen Ford
04/11/15 – 06:31
Before the present Friary bus station, Guildford had two bus stations, both of which were opened in 1950. The first was at Onslow Street, a basic tarmac area with minimal facilities, next to the old 1901 Dennis Factory now known as Rodboro Buildings. Onslow Street was intended to be a temporary bus station, and a more substantial facility was constructed just the other side of the River Wey at Farnham Road, the two being linked by a pedestrian footbridge. Onslow Street was supervised by London Transport whose departures from there predominated. Farnham Road was managed by Aldershot & District whose extensive network served much of local Guildford and radiated beyond into West Surrey and Hampshire. In the event the intended expansion of Farnham Road never took place, and Onslow Street remained in use right up to the time when both bus stations were engulfed in the brutalist new bridge construction that now defaces central Guildford as part of a misconceived gyratory system. Whilst the old Friary Meux brewery site was being redeveloped as (inevitably) a covered shopping mall, buses were dispersed to other streets, mainly Commercial Road (the location of the current Friary bus station) and Millbrook, and some A&D routes ran from the much reduced Farnham Road site for a while. There is now talk of closing Friary bus station (to extend the Friary shopping centre) and relocating public transport to Bedford Road, away from the commercial centre of the town. As ever, the lowly bus passenger barely registers on the social scale with local authorities.
Roger Cox
04/11/15 – 16:02
There’s a poser Stephen: some call it Waterdale Bus Station, others Glasgow Paddocks. I think that Waterdale Bus Station was in Glasgow Paddocks, which were originally fields. Long distance coaches such as United to London left from Waterdale itself, opposite, but this was less a bus station, more a parking area. Any advance…?
Joe
Phillip Rushworth asks whether anywhere had more than four bus stations. In fact, for a time until the early sixties, Leeds had five:- Starting from the Wellington Street Coach Station 1) facility which, as he states, serviced express coach services and certain West Yorkshire long distance bus routes to the East Coast, and proceeding in a clockwise direction:- 2) Rockingham Street Bus Station which serviced a few LCT routes to the north and west of the city. 3) Vicar Lane Bus Station which was used by all WYRCC services into the city apart from service 34 to Otley, and Ilkley. United Automobile, EYMS and Sam Ledgards buses could also be found here on the services they shared with West Yorkshire. 4) Central Bus Station, used by LCT for all terminating routes from the east of the city and most from the north and west. Additionally, this is where T Burrows and Son, Kippax & District and South Yorkshire Motors routes started, most West Riding Autos began and where you could find the occasional Yorkshire Traction or Sheffield “C” fleet bus on route 67 which they shared with West Riding, to the latter named city. 5) Finally, there was the Cross York Street Bus Station used solely by West Riding on their “red” routes (tram replacement services) to Rothwell, Wakefield and Kettlethorpe. I’m not sure which of (2) or (5) above Philip forgot. In fairness, the Cross York Street establishment was purpose built and, though small, adequate facilities were close by whereas the Rockingham Street site was no more than a street with barriers at four(?) stops where crews took their rest. Finally, could I nominate Talbot Road Bus Station in Blackpool as Britains worst Bus Station? Purpose built with a car park above, it was dark and gloomy, seemed to retain all fumes produced (not just from the buses!) unsafe for passengers who were supposed to wait along one side of the ground floor whilst buses drove in, parked and unloaded before loading, and had a resident flock of unhouse-trained pigeons and seagulls.
Steve Crompton
09/11/15 – 06:49
Steve, it was Rockingham St that I had overlooked. So that’s five for Leeds – not to forget the YWD/Hebble routes that were quarantined to the Queen St/Sovereign St areas . . . and, as you mentioned, the Cookridge St stance for the Ledgard/WY services towards Otley through Bramhope.
In 1958, the Northern General Group took delivery of 53 Leyland PD3/4 vehicles. To the best of my knowledge, they were their first 30ft double deck buses; they were also the last rear entrance, although not the last half cabs, that particular label went to the Routemasters of 1963/4. I know a few half cabs were drafted in post NBC, but that was after the lunatics had taken control of the asylum.
The independence NGT allowed its subsidiaries in vehicle choice and specification has been discussed before on this site, and here is another example. 13 were ordered by Sunderland District Omnibus YPT 286 to 298; 286/298 They were primarily bought for use on SDO’s longer routes, and had Burlingham H41/32RD bodies, and very smart they looked in the understated Navy blue and white livery.
The remainder were all H41/32R MCW Orion bodies.
3 for Tyneside NNL 48 to 50; 48/50 Sage green and cream.
5 for Gateshead & District HCN 475 to 479; 75/79 Chocolate and cream.
20 for Northern YPT 825 to 484; 1825/1844 BET red and cream.
12 for Percy Main of which ten AFT 224 to 233; 224/233 for Tynemouth & District and two AFT 234 and 235; 234/235 for Wakefields Motors Ltd. All twelve in BET red and cream.
I think its fair to say that the Orion would not be everyone’s first choice for favourite body, and the least said about the early ones the better. However, lessons were learned and these 1958 versions were a vast improvement on those on the earlier Guy Arab’s and Leyland PD2’s. As was the practice with Gateshead and District, theirs had a Newcastle Corporation style destination layout, but that and different liveries apart, outwardly, all the Orion’s looked to be pretty much the same. The interiors were finished in brown with Rexene covered seats. However, the 12 for Percy Main were finished to a much higher interior specification, as well as a different colour, ‘green’ they had moquette upholstered seats. Shortly after delivery, the front number plates were moved from the radiator to the front panel below the windscreen. AFT 930, had an extended life as a driver training vehicle, and I’m pleased say that it has survived into preservation, and is currently in the extremely capable hands of North East Bus Preservation Trust Ltd where it is undergoing extensive restoration. There was also a Sunderland District Omnibus example ‘YPT 289’ which was listed as awaiting preservation, but it seems to have dropped off the radar, does anyone know anything about it?
AFT 229 fleet number 229 is pictured above round the back of Percy Main depot, and looks to have just arrived from MCW, but in fairness, their vehicles were always well turned out, but this was in an age before ‘pride’ became an outdated idea that was surplus to requirements.
Ronnie Hoye 01/2016
28/01/16 – 09:55
‘The front number plates were moved from the radiator to the front panel below the windscreen’. I have often wondered why, when the majority of operators were content to have the front number plate in the traditional position below the radiator, some chose to locate them in odd places. Below the cab windscreen might have been something to do with better visibility than down at ground level. But why have them up on the waistrail, beneath the destination indicator? Southdown had consecutive batches of buses in this period with number plates ‘up there’ and blow the radiator. So there seems to have been no company policy. And Barton was famous for putting adverts down below the radiator ‘Parcels by Bus’, for example, with the number plate high up on the body. Clearly, they weren’t worried about road dirt obscuring the number plate, as it would have been their own advert that would have been obscured. Was it to do with identification of buses in the depot? Then surely prominent fleet numbers would have been the answer and operators have total control of where these are sited. Does anybody here know the reason ?
Petras409
28/01/16 – 11:39
Usually when operators moved the number plate from the radiator onto the bodywork it was to allow radiators to be swapped from one bus to another without having to swap the plate as well.
John Stringer
28/01/16 – 16:08
YPT 289 is included on the NEBPT’s list of preserved buses with a North-East connection, dated 27/2/14, and that seems to be regarded as the ‘current’ list. It’s given as awaiting restoration, with owner Ritchie, Peterborough. Is there reason to suspect that its status has recently changed?
David Call
29/01/16 – 07:11
I find it fascinating to note the allocated registration series of these buses. Clearly Northern General allowed it’s subsidiaries to use their local office for their particular batch, so we have, AFT, HCN, NNL, and YPT. One (AFT) is just starting a three letter forward series, one (HCN) is about a third through, one (NNL) just over half-way, and the other (YPT) is the last in a forward series, about to start reverse issues. Quite fascinating when all these issuing offices were in the same area! No doubt that all changed in the 1974 sort-out.
Michael Hampton
29/01/16 – 17:35
Yes Michael, prior to 1974, apart from vehicles acquired by way of a takeover, all vehicles new to United, were registered in Darlington ‘HN’, whereas NGT group vehicles were registered in several different authority areas. Vehicles new to Tyneside were Northumberland ‘JR-NL or TY’ Tynemouth & District and Wakefields Motors were Tynemouth ‘FT’. SDO were County Durham ‘PT or UP’ and Gateshead & District were Gateshead ‘CN’. A handfull of Northern vehicles were registered in South Shields ‘CU’ the remainder were all either Gateshead or County Durham. Strangely enough, Sunderland had two registrations, ‘BR & GR’ but neither seem to have been used by the NGT Group
(Culcheth, Lowton, Golborne and Newton-le-Willows area). Although I have books on Lancashire United Transport, and also have seen an excellent article in Buses Illustrated No.205, April 1972 entitled ‘Chat Moss Today’, which apart from normal services in that area details the numerous services operated to Risley United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, I have never seen anything about school bus services and would just like to add my recollections of my schoolday travels with LUT on this excellent site. I attended Newton-le-Willows Grammar School from 1963-1968. Sadly it is no more, having like so many others of that period (disgracefully) first been ‘comprehensified’, then the relatively new buildings (1930) and extensive playing fields in a lovely area obliterated, by the government of that time in the 70’s. All that remains to show it ever existed is a road on a new housing estate called Harrison Drive just off Crow Lane East. (Mr. Harrison was the first and longest serving Headmaster at the school from 1930-1964.) Service buses passing the school on Crow Lane East were the 39 Manchester-Liverpool, the 52 Leigh-Ashton, 53 Warrington-Ashton, and the 62 Newton-Ashton. The circuitous hourly 64 Newton-Marian Avenue (Newton Common) via Belvedere Rd. housing estate also passed and turned off Crow Lane East up Queens Drive which was opposite the school approach drive. Other schoolday buses-non-private i.e. the public could use them – were a single-decker which proceeded to Earlestown Market via the 52 route then onto Burtonwood via the 65 route; a bus from Lane Head via Golborne to Newton and Earlestown; duplicate 39’s between Leigh and St. Helens; a 53 from Warrington at 08:20 – Earlestown, with a ‘strange’ return working at 16:05 in the afternoon from the school. Strange because it’s destination always showed Rubery Owen, an engineering works near Penketh Lane Ends, west of Warrington. This was always one of the # BTF or # DTF registered Duple Tiger Cubs. (This later would return from Rubery Owen as a works journey about 5pm and travel to Earlestown via Wargrave hence the use of a single decker to fit beneath the Park Road North bridge under the Liverpool-Manchester line. (like routes 61/63) No doubt it’s crews used the Rubery Owen instead of the Warrington destination to deter any further would-be passengers after leaving the school! From the school it would never turn into Southworth Road (Newton Station) bus stops as the regular Warrington service would but would stop outside the Leigh Arms on the main road. Then in Warrington, after it’s no doubt comfortable speedy 15 minute drive from Newton via Winwick it wouldn’t terminate at the Central Station stop, but turned immediately right into Tanners Lane and disgorged it’s passengers there, like the 309/319 etc. Southport-Warrington services did before they proceeded past Bank Quay station and on to their terminus at Arpley bus station (former railway station). It was then free to run out of service via Froghall Lane and Priestley Street to Liverpool Road and thus to Rubery Owen. Now to unadvertised school contracts to Newton Grammar. Lancashire County Council, as it then was until 1974, now Newton is in Merseyside, contracted LUT to provide school buses from the Culcheth, Risley, Croft, Kenyon and Lowton catchment area to the school. Destination always showed PRIVATE of course as only school pass holding pupils were carried. In 1963 when I started there were 2 buses, one for the boys, one for the girls. The buses were typically ‘soon to be withdrawn’ early 1950’s Guy Arab III’s or 1V’s/Northern Counties with e.g. KTE #, MTB # or # RTC registrations. In 1965 or 66 three buses were then provided, one for 1st/2nd formers, one for 3rd/4th formers and one, you’ve guessed it for 5th/6th formers. But at least now you could get the same bus as your ‘latest’ girlfriend, they were co-educational at last! The buses now were the later modern Arab Mark IV’s with 73 seats such as the # JTD or # NTF examples. At this time, probably to obviate any danger to pupils and to avoid traffic congestion on Crow Lane East opposite the school these buses, along with the Rubery Owen (Warrington) bus now departed from Cole Avenue, a few yards north up off Queens Drive. Timings: Depart Culcheth Harrow Inn 08:13, Risley, Noggin Inn 08:18, Croft, Horse Shoe Inn 08:23, Croft, General Elliott 08:25, Kenyon, Plough Inn 08:28, Lowton, Lane Head 08:35, then non-stop to arrive Newton Grammar School 08:46. Between timing points up to Lane Head it would stop for pupils at any recognised bus stop. Return: Depart Cole Avenue 16:08, Lowton, Lane Head 16:19, Kenyon, Plough Inn 16:26, Croft,General Elliott 16:29, Croft, Horse Shoe Inn 16:31, Risley, Noggin Inn 16:36, arrive Culcheth, Harrow Inn 16:41. The buses were then conveniently positioned both location and timewise to go to Risley UKAEA just 5 minutes away to operate works services. With regard to Culcheth, it should be noted that timetables always used the old name Newchurch, Harrow Inn, which to me always sounds better! These schoolbuses thus traversed lanes between Risley and Croft which were only ever used by Risley works services, and between Croft and Lowton by the Saturday pm only, 2-hourly service 37. The 37 was then linked (but not officially) to the 36 Newchurch-Irlam service. These double-decked(!) services I feel sure only carried lots of fresh air. Thought these workings may be of interest, and nice to set them on record.
David J. Smith
06/2016
22/06/16 – 06:55
David Thank you for writing this fascinating article. I hold interest in LUT dearly having, like you travelled to school on them in the 1960’s too. Particularly of interest to me is the fact that the majority of the services you have described would have been Hindley depot workings, which, as I lived and went to school in the Walkden & Farnworth areas, which would have been Swinton depot ones and were I later worked as both conductor then driver. The Hindley workings are not well known to me, so your article gives a little insight into those. The only special working that I know well that went into your area was the Saturdays only service from Manchester Chapel Street (i.e. outside and across the road from Victoria Bus Station) to the Hospital at Winwick. This service was often worked by downgraded coaches, (i.e. those repainted red – from cream) and only ever worked by Swinton depot’s ‘Top Sheet’ crews. If I might explain why. Following the 5 day working week agreement at the end of the sixties, LUT needed part timers to complete all of the weekend work that was assigned to crews but which they could hand back if they did not wish to work it. This would include all the late service runs and the unsavoury or mind numbingly boring ones. The one exception being the ‘Winwick’ as this was such an easy duty, it picked up at Eccles only and ran showing ‘Private’, it was money for old rope indeed and the ‘Top Sheet’ senior men knew easy money when they saw it, so it was never given up!
Mike Norris
25/06/16 – 05:54
Mike,thank you for your positive comments about my article,and thanks for your reminiscences and experiences of L.U.T. I must admit that I had always assumed that my Culcheth to Newton school buses were operated from Atherton Depot,in line with the majority of other services in the area. That was,until I stopped being shy and got chatting with one of the conductors in about 1965, finding out that their home depot was indeed Hindley. With reference to the Saturdays only Manchester-Winwick Hospital service I was under the impression that apart from Eccles,Bus Station it would stop to pick up elsewhere along it’s line of route. My memory, or was it my imagination is that there were other timing points i.e. d. Manchester, Chapel St/Victoria St. 1330, Eccles, Bus Station 1347, Irlam,Ship Hotel 1400, Newchurch, Shaw Street 1415, arr. Winwick Hospital 1430. It returned from Winwick Hospital at 1630, arriving back in Manchester 1730. Now,although I have 1947,59,63 and 65 timetables they only state one intermediate timing at Eccles, (at1347 )like you have mentioned in your post. Now,did I have or see another timetable which had those other timing points,or what? The timing point at Newchurch, Shaw Street instead of Harrow Inn would not be out of order either because that would be the route of the 47 in Culcheth( i.e. via Shaw St and Church Lane instead of direct along Warrington Road to the Harrow Inn) on it’s service from Leigh to Croft,Winwick & Warrington which of course our Manchester to Winwick coach could conceivably follow. So did I see that somewhere else,or I might even have had at one time another timetable.I might have lost it during one of our frequent house moves.It’s certainly not in my collection now! Also,another possible mental aberration on my part but ,I think I saw a photo somewhere of one of those good-looking 1960 Northern Counties bodied Tiger Cubs of the 28-35 batch registered 121 MTE etc.photographed in Manchester in later red dual-purpose livery in the mid 60’s at the start of it’s journey to Winwick.It was showing WINWICK and not PRIVATE in it’s single destination screen-they had no numeral indicators of course. There was also the fascinating jointly operated X85 (or 85X if you were on a Wigan Corporation bus! ) from Wigan to Irlam ,started in 1964 whose main passengers were workers at Irlam Steel Works-now sadly closed since 1979.This limited stop rail replacement service took a very creditable 47 mins ,just 8 minutes longer than the train service it replaced, although in autumn and winter the mists and fog rising from the open fields and the winding B-roads would no doubt slow it down a bit. Always a surprise in the gloom to meet a KEK or HJP registered Wigan Titan with Massey body on a bend ,the first thing you’d notice being the green identification light either side of its destination screen.I believe they were to assist Wigan ratepaying citizens in recognising their approaching bus as being one of ‘theirs’ and use it instead of one of their competitors,presumably LUT and Ribble !! Certain LUT journeys especially those returning from Irlam terminated at Abram,Warrington Road,presumably to turn off for Hindley Depot.The code on these stated “Out of Service Journey and liable to suspension if not so required”. To me,this always begged the question how would you know if you wanted that particular bus that it might not turn up ! The service was fairly good if irregularly time tabled and a bit more frequent than the trains it replaced,but it was still a rail replacement service and you might have a long two or three hour gap or so until your next bus. From Swinton Depot ( I presume it was Swinton) there was also the X86- a Monday to Friday commuter service from Manchester to Risley (UK.A.E.A).There is a picture of a downgraded AEC Reliance/Burlingham coach of the 1-5 batch(G241 GTJ etc.) showing destination MANCHESTER at Risley lined up with other LUT Arab double deckers,and right at the end of the line it a white/black Crosville CMG coach on another long distance service,out to Frodsham & Saughall , a village west of Chester. Vehicles from well outside the immediate area catered for these Atomic Energy workers. The X86 departed Manchester,Lower Mosley St.Bus Station 0725 M-F,via Urmston ,Station 0740, then via M63 (now part of the orbital M60) over Barton High Level Bridge to Irlam, Clarendon Road 0755, Glazebrook, Station 0803 (for trains from Liverpool Central and Manchester Central), Newchurch, Harrow Inn 0810 to Risley, Bus Park arr. 0815. It returned at 1718 M-Th (or 20 mins.earlier at 1658 on F), taking an extra 5 mins between Urmston & Manchester probably to allow for evening rush hour traffic, arriving Manchester 1813 M-Th or 1753 on F. If anyone is interested in all such regular and works services in this area I recommend finding a copy of Buses Illustrated 205 of April 1972,which includes a 7-page article entitled Chat Moss Today with map and photos.
David J. Smith
26/06/16 – 06:43
Thanks for your extra/additional information, following my earlier response. Had to go into the loft this morning to dig out my LUT info. I have 1969,1970 and 1976 Faretables, plus 1966, 1967 & 1976 Timetables, so have been looking through them to identify most of the services that you have shown. First, the Winwick Hospital, the times were always the same as you have shown, Manchester, Eccles, Newchurch and Winwick & return. The Faretables only show Manchester, Eccles, then Newchurch, Shaw Street and the Cherry Tree Hotel, then Winwick. Passengers were not carried intermediately. As regards the destination, coach blinds were not as all inclusive as service buses and ‘Winwick’ was not on many (if any at all ) of Swinton’s coaches, hence the use of Private. Wether or not it did pick up at other points along the route, I do not know. To the X85, as you say a rail replacement service following the closure of lines that allowed those trains to get from Wigan to Irlam. What I did not know was that it was joint with Wigan, who as you say did indeed operate on it as well. The Timetables make no reference to this and only after consulting the Fireable is there a mention in its heading. Wigan PD2’s along Holcroft Lane, wow, that was news to me ! Now the X86 from Lower Mosley Street in Manchester, nope not a Swinton working, strangely enough but yet again, another Hindley one, with the consequential empty running, but as it was under contract, the finance would have covered. Again no intermediate fares in the Faretable. After looking through my purchased photographs, I see that I have shots of – 76 (Hindley) on the X85 in snow on Holcroft Road 105 (Hindley) at Risley, with 24 (Hindley) behind and a CSG6 at the rear 259 in Wigan showing X85 Irlam. 365 departing Hindley showing X85 Irlam. and later 381 in Hindley depot showing 695 (as the X85 became) Lastly, I wish I had that Chat Moss article and perhaps if you are still living in the North West, we’d have a lot to talk about if we met.Thanks for your extra/additional information, following my earlier response. Had to go into the loft this morning to dig out my LUT info. I have 1969,1970 and 1976 Faretables, plus 1966, 1967 & 1976 Timetables, so have been looking through them to identify most of the services that you have shown. First, the Winwick Hospital, the times were always the same as you have shown, Manchester, Eccles, Newchurch and Winwick & return. The Faretables only show Manchester, Eccles, then Newchurch, Shaw Street and the Cherry Tree Hotel, then Winwick. Passengers were not carried intermediately. As regards the destination, coach blinds were not as all inclusive as service buses and ‘Winwick’ was not on many (if any at all ) of Swinton’s coaches, hence the use of Private. Wether or not it did pick up at other points along the route, I do not know. To the X85, as you say a rail replacement service following the closure of lines that allowed those trains to get from Wigan to Irlam. What I did not know was that it was joint with Wigan, who as you say did indeed operate on it as well. The Timetables make no reference to this and only after consulting the Fireable is there a mention in its heading. Wigan PD2’s along Holcroft Lane, wow, that was news to me ! Now the X86 from Lower Mosley Street in Manchester, nope not a Swinton working, strangely enough but yet again, another Hindley one, with the consequential empty running, but as it was under contract, the finance would have covered. Again no intermediate fares in the Faretable. After looking through my purchased photographs, I see that I have shots of – 76 (Hindley) on the X85 in snow on Holcroft Road 105 (Hindley) at Risley, with 24 (Hindley) behind and a CSG6 at the rear 259 in Wigan showing X85 Irlam. 365 departing Hindley showing X85 Irlam. and later 381 in Hindley depot showing 695 (as the X85 became) Lastly, I wish I had that Chat Moss article and perhaps if you are still living in the North West, we’d have a lot to talk about if we met.
Mike Norris
28/06/16 – 06:38
Mike,there is currently (27/6/2016) a copy for sale on E-Bay Ł2.99, free postage. Click on the following link www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ian-Allan-BUSES Should take you to it-or on the E-Bay site itself search for Buses Illustrated April 1972. Quite often other copies are found for sale.
David J Smith
02/07/16 – 06:34
Mike,thanks for your comments and interesting information. Well I never would have thought that Hindley Depot did the X86 Manchester Risley U.K.A.E.A.service,I could perhaps have understood if Atherton had worked it,but Hindley never! I would imagine it took the route from Hindley via Atherton & Tyldesley to the East Lancs A580 & A6 to get to Manchester for 0725 to start the X86. From Risley after the a.m. drop off at 0815 I suppose the best way would be direct to the Harrow nn,Culcheth ,then the X85 route via Lane Head,Golborne & Abram to Hindley Depot.Then in reverse of course in the evening rush hour. I bet that a.m. out of service leg from Hindley to Manchester on a foggy winter’s morning was sometimes a slow one,but at least the coach would be warmed up for it’s Risley bound commuters at Manchester ! In my original article I also forgot to mention another LUT schoolday service ,but this time it was the reverse of my Newton Grammar school buses in that it was from Earlestown and Newton to Newchurch (Culcheth) for Culcheth High School.In those days there was such a good range of available schools options compared with today wasn’t there? It was nominally a 52 from Earlestown,Market at 0815 via Crow Lane to Newton Station (0825) then Lane Head arr.0833.The timetable then had an intriguing footnote ‘ Link Up with journey to Newchurch’ on the 49 service,but this really was operated as a through working dep.Lane Head 0835 ,arriving Newchurch,Harrow Inn 0845. From my own schoolday observations at Lane Head there weren’t many schoolkids on it from Earlestown to Lane Head,but at Lane Head it certainly got fuller,as it acted as a duplicate for the schooldays only 0820 Leigh Corporation service 48 from Leigh via Lane Head 0835 to Newchurch.This was always one of the older lowbridge bodied Corporation vehicles with kids spilling off those shiny leathercloth upper deck bench seats into the side gangway with squeals of delight no doubt when it went round the bends in Kenyon Lane and Wilton Lane en route to Newchurch,well I would like to think so,remembering the things we kids used to get up on buses!.The corresponding returns from Newchurch left the Harrow Inn at 1615 to Lane Head 1625,the Corporation 48 turning right for Leigh whilst the LUT 49 became a 52 in that through ‘link-up to Newton Station arr.1633 and Earlestown Market arr.1643. Another interesting little snippet here. I had a couple of mates who went to Culcheth High School and they were avid trainspotters. From 1964 onwards they would have get that 48 just mentioned from where they lived near Lowton St.Marys Station,but from 1962 until 1964 when passenger services ceased on the Wigan Central to Glazebrook and Manchester Central line they actually got, and it was still steam operated , he train from Lowton St.Marys Stn.to Culcheth Station,a journey probably taking all of 4 or 5 minutes.The times weren’t too convenient for instance either as it got them to school about 45 mins, before the bell and they had a wait for a returning train in the afternoon,but they could always while away the time having a football kickabout.The days before girls,and travelling on steam trains was exciting to 12 and 13 year old boys… Take me Back! Incidentally,if you haven’t managed to obtain a copy of BI 205,I can always photocopy it for you,but would need an e-mail address so that you could tell me your postal address.
David J Smith
21/07/16 – 09:58
I am really sorry for the long delay in replying, I obtained the Buses Magazine through my brother, but who was away on holiday when it arrived! So to the article by Mr Biddiscombe. I see in their the questions raised which your research has sought to answer, so praise indeed for that. I was unaware of the 36 & 37 story, their decline and resurrection along with Leigh’s 46 & 47 story hingeing on the Risley installation. Also enjoyed reading about the River Mersey embankment collapse ending the use of Warrington’s Bank Foot terminus for the 10 from Manchester and the 77/80 series of locals. One item I can directly link to was the school service from Glazebrook New Farm via Dam Head Hall to Irlam, which I have Guarded but never driven, it was worked by a Loline that had worked a morning 22 service from Swinton to Irlam Steel Works. The ‘Moss’ was not a welcoming place on early winter mornings, when the only heat available was to stand in front of the radiator to get your frozen fingers to work the ‘TIM’ dial ! All in all a very interesting chapter of LUT, so thank you again for highlighting.
The Dennis Dart was a sophisticated little machine that was a great advance upon its forebears, the 36 bhp 2.72 litre four cylinder side valve powered G, and the slightly longer GL which had a 42 bhp ohv version of the same engine design (see OBP Llandudno UDC – Dennis GL – CC 8671). The Dart was introduced in 1929 and was propelled by a wet liner, six cylinder pushrod ohv engine of 4.086 litres that could develop up to 70 bhp. Coupled with a four speed gearbox, road speeds in excess of 50 mph were attainable. Fuel consumption was claimed to be 15 mpg on main roads and 11 mpg in urban conditions. Most Dart production was bodied for bus and coach work, but some were used as lorries. Unusually for Dennis, only three were equipped with fire engine bodies, and all of them went to New Zealand :- www.fire-engine-photos.com The earliest examples of the Dart had a radiator grille similar in shape to the EV model as seen on the fire engine, but this was soon replaced by the Arrow/ Lance style of grille shown on TJ 836. From 1930, The London General Omnibus Company adopted the Dart as its standard small bus for OMO duties, taking a total of 42. Like the six cylinder 100 bhp Arrow, the Dart came on the scene at a difficult time when the economy was in the severe doldrums following the 1929 financial crash. The Arrow was quickly replaced in 1931 by the more utilitarian four cylinder Lancet, and the Dart was followed in 1933 by the rugged and reliable ‘Flying Pig’ Ace model which had the utterly dependable 60 bhp four cylinder 3.77 litre side valve motor, an engine that remained in production up to the 1960s. When the London Transport Passenger Board came into existence in 1933 it deliberated for some time in its choice of a new 20 seater bus for OMO duties before finally coming down in favour of the Leyland Cub in 1935. The influencing factor seems to have been Leyland’s introduction of the 4.4 litre six cylinder diesel engine for the Cub. Other models from Thornycroft and Dennis were considered by the LPTB, but the only diesel options from those manufacturers were the Gardner 4LK or the temperamental and barely developed Perkins Wolf, both of which were four cylinder designs. In service, the Cub’s original direct injection Leyland unit proved to be troublesome, and it was superseded by an indirect injection version. All the London Darts remained in service until 1939, when they were due to be ousted by the revolutionary new rear engined version of the Cub, the CR, the sad tale of which may be found elsewhere on OBP :- www.old-bus-photos.co.uk
The FS46 Vega had retained most of the styling of the original FS32 range albeit with slightly revised corner glazing at the front end. In October 1953 Duple did a more thorough re-design and came up with the FS56. The “Big Bedford” radiator cowling disappeared and was replaced by an oval radiator grille which led to it being nicknamed the “Fishmouth” Vega. The FS56/1 was the 8ft wide version and the Mk VI bus option was quietly dropped, to be replaced by a purpose-built bus body manufactured at Kegworth. Apart from the oval grille another distinguishing feature of the original FS56 model was a marginally increased seating capacity of 36/38.
This is the original FS56 Vega with the “fish-mouth” radiator grille. All such vehicles were built during 1954. At the time of this shot Bedford SBG HBW 306 was working for Williams of Wrockwardine Wood in Shropshire (Photographer unknown)
As the nickname “Fishmouth” might suggest, some operators were unimpressed by the new frontal design of the Vega and took their shillings to Scarborough for some far more attractive Plaxton Venturers. Duple rapidly admitted that the oval grille had been a mistake, and after a single year in production the vacuous goldfish look was replaced by a far more pleasing design. Introduced at the 1954 Commercial Motor Show, the new front end featured a butterfly shaped grille surmounted by a “feathered wings” motif. Otherwise it retained the dimensions and seating capacity of the original FS56. The butterfly grille models were given the designations FS56/2 (7ft 6ins) and FS56/3 (8ft).
Shropshire was a good place to find elderly Vega variants! This is Bedford SBG 111 CVX, new in 1955 and carrying an FS56/2 “butterfly grille” body. At the time of the photograph it was in service with Tulip Coaches of Hadley who also owned the Dennis L6 Falcon shown earlier in this feature. (Roy Marshall via Author)
Model numbers from FS56/4 through to FS56/9 were allocated to “lookalikes”; /4 and /5 to Leyland’s new forward control version of the Comet, /6 and/7 to bodies built on Commer Avenger III chassis, and /8-9 to a small number of Albion FT39 Victors. The next “true Vegas” came along in October 1955 and were the first to be a full 30ft long, a move made possible after Bedford extended the wheelbase of the SB chassis. The FS56/10 was the 7ft 6ins version and the FS56/11 the 8 footer, with both having alternative seating plans for either 37 or 41 passengers. These designations were retained for the slightly modified versions introduced at the October 1956 Commercial Motor Show which retained the butterfly grille but incorporated the “feathered wings” into the top edge of the butterfly shape to achieve a much more harmonious result. For the first time in three years Duple’s design for the SB was more attractive than that of Plaxton which had ill-advisedly dropped the classic Venturer and replaced it with the fairly monstrous first version of the Consort range.
And here is the prettiest of them all, in this case an 8ft wide FS56/11 with the improved butterfly grille. Bedford SBG NUJ 313 was new to Whittle of Highley (in southern Shropshire) in 1956 but is seen here running for M&G Motors of Wem in the northern part of the county. (Photographer unknown)
This Commer T85A Avenger III with an FS56/6 lookalike body was delivered in the same year as the Bedford SBG above but retained the original butterfly grille as the floor-line was higher on the Avenger and the separate “feathered wings” motif helped to conceal the deeper front panel area between windscreen and radiator grille. We have not strayed very far from Shropshire as this machine, NUN 450, was new to EG Peters of Llanarmon-yn-Ial. Just across the Welsh border. (Photographer unknown)
Another of the classic “revised butterfly” design, but in this case a higher specification Super Vega mounted on a diesel-powered Bedford SBO. ODL 48 was new to state-owned Southern Vectis in 1957, and ten years later it left the Isle of Wight to join another Tilling group company, United Counties. Its stay there was brief and in 1968 it moved on to Smaller of Barton-on-Humber (Lincolnshire) and ended up in a scrapyard. Hulley’s of Baslow bought it for spares in 1971, but two years later placed it into service as fleet number 9. (John Holmes)
The numbering system was becoming a bit of a shambles by 1956, a single designation covering a multitude of options made clear only by the suffix number. The FS56 series included not only genuine Vegas and “Vega Lookalikes” but also the Britannia/Britannic models designed for underfloor engined chassis such as AEC Reliances and Leyland Tiger Cubs. There was an obvious family resemblance between the Vega and the Britannia (the separate Britannic designation for centre-entrance versions had been dropped after one season), and the two designs had many common components, but the Britannia was surely deserving of its own place in the FS series. Instead the Britannia bodies received design numbers between FS56/21 and FS56/40 indicating chassis type, width, entrance position, and the special demands of the buyer. Things became even more ridiculous in 1957 when the FS56 series jumped again for no apparent reason, designations FS56/57 and FS56/58 being allocated to “Vega Lookalike” bodies fitted to the new Ford 570E Thames Trader chassis. The /57 was the narrower of the two options. Ford were not keen on the butterfly grille and Duple came up with a rather chrome-heavy alternative which occupied the full width (and most of the depth) of the front end panels. The front windscreens were of a new two-piece design made possible by advances in curved glass technology. A relatively small number were built in 1957-58 before the Thames began to flood the market. The final numbers in the FS56 series were the FS56/59 and FS56/60, built on Bedford SB chassis to Vega specification but with extensive use of Perspex roof glazing aimed at the Continental touring market. The new variation was known as the Duple Alpine, but was very rare as most operators were not that keen on boiling their customers alive. Two more designs related to the FS56 Vega family should also be mentioned in brief. Type number FS58 was allocated to a version of the Vega body tailored to suit front-engined heavyweight chassis built in 1946-1950, mostly as half-cab coaches. By 1956 the original bodywork on these vehicles had seen better days and Duple saw a market in making the mechanically sound chassis look as good as new for less than half the cost of a totally new vehicle. AEC Regals, Leyland Tigers, Crossley SD42s, and Daimler CVD6s were among the marques thus rebodied. Presumably each different chassis had a suffix number, but I have been unable to find a record of them. The FS58 was shorter than a real Vega of its time, being to the 28ft 11¾ins length of the original FS56 of 1954 (and built on chassis originally designed for the 27ft 6ins legal limit), but the next number in the sequence, FS59, was given to an even more truncated version of the butterfly grille Vega design. This model was designed for the Bedford C4/C5 range of goods chassis, seating either 25 or 29 depending on the wheelbase of the particular chassis. It was originally known as the New Vista, but this was changed to Super Vista in 1959 when all Vegas became Super Vegas.
FS60 SUPER VEGA
Having perfected the FS56 Vega family Duple decided to take a lesson from Plaxton and replace their best-seller with something much less attractive. Introduced at the Commercial Motor Show in October 1958, the new FS60 range had a much more bulbous look and lacked the subtle lines of the butterfly grille model. The butterfly itself had vanished, replaced by an uninspiring full-width chrome unit originally used on the small batch of FS56 models fitted to Ford chassis in 1957-58. The two-piece curved front windscreen had also first been used on the early Fords, but the rear window arrangement was completely new and not particularly attractive to most observers. The kindest thing you could say was that it let more light in than earlier versions. Meanwhile Plaxton had undertaken several redesigns of the Consort and by the time the Consort IV emerged in late 1959 the ugly duckling had turned into a passable swan. Faced with the obese new Super Vega variant several well-known operators switched their allegiance to the Scarborough firm.
The FS60 Super Vega was several steps away from the elegance of the later FS56 versions. This is HCC 850, a 1960 Bedford SB3 (petrol engined) which was new to Purple Motors of Bethesda. Five years after delivery it was sold on to Williams of Llithfaen who used it on their stage service to Pwllheli as seen here. (Photographer unknown)
The original FS60 Super Vega was the 7ft 6ins version while the 8ft equivalent was the FS60/1. Next came the (unnamed) FS60/2 which was a similar body for the Commer Avenger IV, while design numbers FS60/3 to FS60/6 were Duple Britannias on underfloor engined chassis. The numbers FS60/7 and FS60/8 were the Super Vega lookalikes for Ford 570E chassis. These too were unnamed at this stage despite what you may have read elsewhere! The 1960 Commercial Motor Show brought another partial redesign of the Super Vega, with a three-piece windscreen and a new (more stylish) radiator grille helping to improve its appearance. The design numbers had taken another unexplained leap, with the rehashed Super Vega becoming the FS60/18 (7ft 6ins) and FS60/19 (8ft) while the FS60/20 was the version for the Commer Avenger IV and (at Commer’s suggestion apparently) was given the name Corinthian, the first of the “lookalikes” to aspire to such a status. The numbers from FS60/21 to FS60/24 were allocated to Duple Britannias, and FS60/25 (7ft 6ins) and FS60/26 (8ft) were given to bodies on Ford 570E Thames Traders. These too finally acquired a name, being branded as the Duple Yeoman. The Fords’ radiators were slightly larger than those of Bedford SBs and Commer Avenger IVs, so the Yeoman of 1961-62 retained the original version of the FS60 radiator grille – itself first used on early Thames Traders – while the (Commer based) Corinthian used the same type of grille as the 1961-62 Super Vega.
The final 1961/1962 version of the FS60 was an improvement, but only if seen from the front. This 1962 example on a Bedford SB1 (diesel-powered) chassis, 631 UTD, started its life in Lancashire but by the time of this photograph had passed to Titterington of Blencowe in the Lake District. (Photographer unknown)
In 1961 Duple began to design a new range of coach bodies for introduction in 1962/63, involving much squarer bodywork with straight waist-rails and the quirky “keynote” feature of a backward leaning window pillar above the rear wheel arch on each side. It was generally known as the”Bella” range but more accurately as the FS61 series. The first model to be launched was the 29 seat Bella Vista for the Bedford VAS, followed by the 52 seat Vega Major for the three axle Bedford VAL, and then by the 41 seat Bella Vega for the Bedford SB. I will take a look at the entire FS61 range (which also included the Trooper for the Ford 570E, the Marauder and Mariner for Ford 676E Thames 36 chassis, the Commodore for 32ft underfloor engined designs, the Empress for the Ford R192, and the Bella Venture for the Bedford VAM) in a future article, but my next piece on coach bodywork will remain in the 1950s and cover Plaxton models from 1950 to 1959 under the working title “Venturers, Consorts, and Panoramas”
Neville. What an excellent Two Part Article. A note you may be interested in part 1 is KWX 413 was purchased new to Kildare, Adwick-le-Street from Comberwell Motors dealership in 9-1951, in previous month 8/1951 KWX 412 was also purchased new by Kildare.
Alan Coulson
28/04/17 – 07:17
One of the delights of both this site and sct61 is how something written today can suddenly shed light on something that has been puzzling me for a long, long time. In this case it was a Ford/Duple coach operated in the 1960s by Claribel Coaches of Ardwick, Manchester, which looked at first sight like what I now know as an FS60, but in side view resembled the earlier butterfly grille Vega. Since I’ve never seen another one, or even a photograph, for 50 years I’ve assumed it must have been either a prototype or a dream. Now I know it was an FS56/57 or /58. Thank you very much!
Peter Williamson
28/04/17 – 16:47
Peter W, you’re so right!! You mention CLARIBEL. I remember them from the mid to late fifties and early sixties when they used to visit Morecambe, though I can’t remember what colours they applied or what vehicles they had.
Pete Davies
01/05/17 – 07:15
As far as I recall, Claribel of Ardwick (not to be confused with a Birmingham operator of the same name which seems to have been better known) had a livery of two shades of blue. As well as the Ford they had a Bedford OB, which in most places would be “yeah, right, who didn’t?”, but it’s the only one I can ever recall seeing in Manchester in the 1960s. Returning to the article, it isn’t true that the FS60/25 and /26 Ford Yeoman retained the original FS60 grille. It had its own special version, as shown here at this link.
Peter Williamson
08/05/17 – 07:59
Peter and Pete, if you search OBP for ‘claribel’, you will find some comments about Claribel of Ardwick, including a partial fleet list I compiled a few years ago. I would imagine they also had other coaches purchased second hand. Adding a little further information to the fleet list (the ‘date in’ and ‘date new’ have been transposed):- 2444 ND was new to A Howarth, Gorton; CCB 150 was probably a unique vehicle, being a forward control conversion of a Bedford OB carrying a Trans-United full front body. New to Ribblesdale, Blackburn, a colour photograph of this coach whilst with Claribel appeared in Classic Bus 117 (Feb/March 2012), nicely illustrating the shades of blue used by Claribel; JA 2459 was new to W Howe, Stockport and passed to North Western with that operator’s business in 1935.
David Williamson
13/06/17 – 09:12
Something which adds weight to Neville’s belief that the Duple Continental was not designed at Blackpool is that the prototype – which eventually became 6201ML – was built at Loughborough under Willowbrook order no. 61837. Intriguingly, order no. 61838 was cancelled and 61839 was an order of parts for Burlingham!
Peter Williamson
13/04/22 – 06:24
I’m a Matchbox collector and I’m looking for the colours of Bedford type “Commer T85A Avenger III with a FS56/6 lookalike body” (NUN 450 four pictures above, it was new to E G Peters of Llanarmon-yn-Ial). I would like to know if anyone can provide me with the bus colours. There are lots of 1955 Bedford bus photos on the Internet but this one is the most similar to Matchbox no21 Bedford Duple Luxury Coach.
The work of the PSV Circle in maintaining fleet records for operators throughout the UK (and beyond) has been little less than magnificent, and most authors (myself included) owe the organisation a tremendous debt. However, being English, that doesn’t prevent me from having one small gripe amid the general climate of praise. Many of the organisation’s “roving reporters” had a tendency to provide all available information about the chassis of a vehicle but be rather less specific on details of the bodywork. I know that several of the organisation’s long term leading lights acknowledge this regrettable oversight and wish that those out in the field in the pioneering days had been more curious about bodywork styles. To give an example, a 1950 Leyland PS1 Tiger with a “Plaxton FC33F” body could be either a Plaxton Envoy or a Plaxton Crusader, very different beasts in terms of appearance and styling. Similarly, a 1952 Leyland PSU1/15 Royal Tiger described as carrying a “Windover C37C” body could be a Windover Kingsway (with rakish if controversial styling) or a Windover Queensway (which looked like an over-sized milk float). Many enthusiasts and writers from a later age are similarly imprecise in their description of bodywork. My personal bugbear is the use of the term “Duple Vega” or “Duple Super Vega” to describe bodywork built on chassis other than the Bedford SB. Vauxhall Motors had an agreement with Duple to use “V” (for Vauxhall) as the initial letter for designs intended for Bedford chassis only. Thus the Vista (for Bedford O range vehicles), Vega/Super Vega (for the SB family) and later the New Vista/Super Vista (on Bedford C4/C5), Bella Vista (on the VAS), Vega Major (on the VAL14), Bella Vega (on the SB from 1963) and Bella Venture (on the VAM for 1966 only). In 1967 the agreement seems to have ended as Duple went on to make the Viceroy and Viscount models on Ford chassis as well as Bedford. In my own writing I tend to describe Vega style bodies on chassis other than Bedford as “Vega Lookalikes” in order to maintain a narrative flow, but each lookalike has its own distinctive Duple model number and these are listed in this article alongside the genuine Bedford Vegas which they resembled. From 1946 onwards Duple used a series of “FS” numbers for its bodywork designs. The “FS” stood for “Full Size”, although this appellation referred to the scale of the draughtsman’s drawings rather than the physical size of the actual coach or bus (a point proven by the allocation of FS50 to the diminutive Sportsman design built for the Bedford OLAZ goods chassis). The series began with the FS1 model for half-cab coaches, more popularly known by its marketing department name of “A type”. Later and longer (and/or wider) “A types” had their own individual FS numbers as did those produced in bulk for specific customers such as the Southern/Western National fleets. By late 1949 the FS series had advanced to FS32 which was the designation given to a 33 seat metal-framed body for the new Bedford SB chassis.
FS32 VEGA
The original Duple Vega had been intended to meet the (then) maximum legal dimensions of 27ft 6ins in length by 7ft 6ins in width, but before the new type could go into production the regulations were changed to allow a length of 30 feet. Another change meant that vehicles up to 8 feet in width could be used on all suitable roads rather than operators having to seek permission to use such vehicles on the mileage of each individual Road Service Licence. Duple was too far into the production process to take full advantage of the liberalised dimensions, but added a token inch to the Vega’s length.
This is the original FS32 Vega body of metal-framed construction. KWX 413 was new in 1951, one of a pair bought from Duple by the Comberhill Motors dealership in Wakefield. It later ran for Wigmore (Excelsior) of Dinnington before moving to Price of Wrockwardine Wood (Shropshire) in 1963. Rather than change the eyebrow blind Price started to use the Excelsior name himself! The vehicle went from Price to Canham of Whittlesey but returned to Shropshire at the end of its life with Williamson of Shrewsbury. Sister vehicle KWX 412 ended up in the Shetland Islands and is currently preserved. (Photographer unknown)
The model number FS32 (without a suffix) indicated a standard Bedford SB/Duple Vega, measuring 27ft 7ins by 7ft 6ins. The FS32/1 had the same body shell but with more basic seating and interior trim and was marketed as the Duple Mk VI service bus body. Few operators were tempted by it as the full coach version was only 7% more expensive, had the same number of seats, and could be used on a wider variety of work. The FS32/2 was the 8ft wide version of the Mk VI, while the designation FS32/3 referred to an 8ft wide Vega coach. At this point the first “Lookalikes” enter the picture. Designations FS32/4 through to FS32/7 were allocated to a similar sequence of options for bodywork on Dennis Falcon chassis. Only four were built, but the few that did go into service were an inch shorter than the corresponding Vega for reasons which remain obscure. The Dennis examples were unnamed, although some internal documents described them as “Duple Falcons” to differentiate them from their Bedford kin.
FS42 VEGA
This model, introduced during 1951, was externally identical to the FS32. The difference lay in the mode of construction. While the FS32 had a completely metal frame the FS42 reverted to more traditional composite (wood/metal) construction, a decision forced upon Duple by a mixture of industrial action and a shortage of skilled labour in the area around its Hendon premises. Suffix numbers remained identical to those of the FS32 range although only two FS42/5s were ever built on Dennis L6 Falcon chassis, taking the grand total to six.
The strikes at Duple’s Hendon factory during 1951 threatened the future of the company at the hour of its greatest triumph and in order to apply pressure on the unions involved several small batches of Vega bodies were assembled by Brush at their Loughborough premises. This FS42 (MOD 688) was originally delivered to a Devonshire operator but later migrated northwards, first to Midway of Crymmych in South Wales, and then to Williamson of Shrewsbury as seen in this shot. The Brush examples were made from authentic Duple components and were visually indistinguishable from the real thing. (Photographer unknown)
The next chassis type to receive a “Vega Lookalike” body design was the Tilling-Stevens L4MA8 Express II. Designed to compete with the Bedford SB/Commer Avenger ranges, the Express II was suitable for 30ft long bodywork and Duple’s FS44 design (which was metal framed like the FS32 Vega) took advantage of its slightly longer wheelbase to offer 37 seat coach and 39 seat bus versions. The latter used the same body-shell as the coach and (unlike its Mk VI equivalent on Bedford chassis) actually outsold the coach. As the figures were four and three respectively this was not quite as impressive as it might sound! They were rare enough in either version to make an enthusiast’s day.
Tilling-Stevens L4MA8 Express II UNO 880 was new to Rainham Luxury Coaches in Essex in June 1952 and was an FS44 with 37 coach seats and soft trim. Rainham got rid of it rather quickly and it had two more owners before arriving with Truman of Shirebrook (Derbyshire) when still less than two years old. (RHG Simpson)
Two months after UNO 880 came into the world this L4MA8 with the 39 seat bus version of the lookalike body (FS44/1) was delivered to Morrison of Tenby (South Wales). ODE 777’s later owners included Gillard of Normanton (West Riding), Martin of Caerphilly (South Wales), and then three further operators in the West Riding of Yorkshire; Mosley of Barugh Green, Laycock of Barnoldswick (as seen in this shot), and Hillcrest of Settle. (Photographer unknown)
Dennis L6 Falcon NVF 943 was new to Culling of Claxton (Norfolk) in February 1953 and carries an FS42/5 “Vega Lookalike” body. It later passed to Lowe of Hadley (Shropshire) who traded as Tulip Coaches. (Roy Marshall via Author)
FS46 VEGA/SUPER VEGA
Hot on the heels of the FS44 for Tilling-Stevens chassis, Duple introduced a longer genuine Vega for the Bedford SB. The wheelbase of the SB remained the same, but a longer rear overhang enabled the FS46 model to carry 35/37 passengers in its 28ft 11¾ins length. The FS46 was a 7ft 6ins wide coach while FS46/1 indicated the 8ft wide model. The first deliveries took place during late 1952, and versions with a superior level of interior trim were available and marketed as the Super Vega. There were also Mk VI bus versions of the FS46 which could accommodate a maximum of 37 passengers. I’ve only ever noticed two of these but there may have been more. The FS46 was of composite construction as was the FS47 “lookalike” for Tilling-Stevens chassis which replaced the metal-framed FS44. King George VI died in February 1952 and after a short period of mourning the popular press began to enthuse about the “New Elizabethan Age”. In the spirit of this sentiment Duple produced an extremely luxurious version of the longer Vega body and referred to it as an Elizabethan. The single vehicle produced featured a toilet, a galley, wheel spats over the rear wheel arches, and a rather inelegant T-shaped motif in chrome which was super-imposed over the existing “Big Bedford” radiator cowling. A few externally similar vehicles (but without the toilet and galley) were produced during 1953 under the name of Coronation Vega, while the Elizabethan name would be re-used for a far more successful model on underfloor-engined chassis in 1954.
“of the Dennis Falcons were VPA 261/2 which entered service, new, with The Yellow Bus Co of Stoughton, Guildford in 1954. VPA 261 worked YBS’s last service at 10:35 pm on Sunday 15th June 1958. They can both be seen on SCT61 on the day before closure. http://www.sct61.org.uk/yb261http://www.sct61.org.uk/yb262 This info is from Happy Family by N Hamshere and J Sutton
