Chiltern Queens – Tilling-Stevens K6LA7 – DBW 66

Chiltern Queens - Tilling-Stevens K6LA7 - DBW 66
Copyright Ray Soper

Chiltern Queens of Woodcote
1948
Tilling-Stevens K6LA7
Vincent C33F

This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled "Chiltern Queens of Woodcote" click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.


Hi, I have always lived in Eltham, SE London and clearly remember in 1959/60 travelling on a Tilling Stevens coach then operated by Cliffs Coaches of Eltham. I remember being so impressed with the unusual ‘whistling’ noise on the overrun that I was determined to find out what make it was. I was 10 or 11 at the time and already a London bus and trolleybus fanatic. The coach was full-fronted, but had a full width bulkhead and I later surmised it had been ‘modernised’ with the full front. It had a Tilling Stevens badge however. I never recorded the reg. number I’m afraid, but is there anyone else who remembers this vehicle ?

Ernie Jupp


17/01/13 – 15:25

With reference to the identity of the TSM owned by Cliff’s of Eltham, there were in fact two:
MXU 387 TSM L4MA8 (9820) bodied by Gurney Nutting FC37F new to Cliff’s in 1952 and sold to Valedene Coaches, Sutton Valence, Kent in December 1961
NXL 15 TSM L4MA8 (9838) bodied by Duple (Vega style) FC37F new to Cliff’s in 1953 and sold to Callaghan, London N1 by September 1962.
I went to school in Sidcup from 1958 to 1964 and remember being mightily impressed by a ride to and from the London Motor Cycle show on one of Cliff’s first two Thames Trader/Duple Yeoman C41F reg. 559 and 560 RPC.

Chris Ellis


18/01/13 – 06:08

This 1948 coach was acquired with the Kemp’s business in 1955. It is a Tilling-Stevens K6LA7 with Vincent of Reading C33F Coachwork. It was withdrawn in 1963.

Philip Lamb


15/05/13 – 07:31

I was interested in the comment about Cliff’s of Eltham having a full-front Tilling-Stevens L6MA7 with Meadows engine.
I recall a trip from Sevenoaks to Margate by Davis of Sevenoaks in 1955 or 1956. The refreshment stop on the way home was at Molash.
I recall seeing a passing full-front coach sounding quite unlike anything I had heard before and saw the Tilling-Stevens badge as it went by. Could that have been the one from Cliff’s (presumably the Gurney-Nutting one as I think I would have noticed the Duple variety)?

John Humphrey


15/05/13 – 15:23

This might qualify as nitpicking, but technically the bodywork on Tilling Stevens Express Mk 2s (the model with chassis codes beginning with "L") should be described as "C37F" etc rather than "FC37F". The model was designed from the outset as a fully fronted vehicle in the same way as the Bedford SB, Commer Avenger, Guy Otter, or Seddon Mk 4/6. Does anybody know how many Express Mk 2s were built? They were pretty rare.

Neville Mercer


16/05/13 – 06:34

I don’t know how the total of Express Mk II’s built after the war, Neville, but their largest order was for 158 chassis, built in 1947/1948 for export to Hong Kong (China Motor Bus (108) & Kowloon Motor Bus (50))

Chris Hebbron


16/05/13 – 13:58

Further to Neville’s comments, I have a picture of a L4MA8 (4DC engine) which was owned by Trumans of Shirebrook. The body was C37F and it was virtually same as the Bedford SB style except for a different grille and higher build. It too was described incorrectly by the PSV Circle as FC37F. It was registered UNO 880 and was new to Edwards of Rainham. It was operated briefly by East Midland when they took over Trumans.

Chris Barker


20/05/13 – 07:15

I’m extremely grateful to Chris Ellis and the other correspondents for the info. on the Cliff’s Tilling Stevens coaches. I can safely say that ‘my’ ride would have been on the earlier Gurney Nutting bodied coach as I was quite familiar with the more common Duple bodied coaches. Was the whistling on over-run typical ?
The trip described was a school trip to the wonderful Geffrye Museum in Shoreditch, and I indulged myself spotting trolleybuses passing on the 543/643, 647 and 649 services. There seemed to be at least one per minute in each direction – heaven !

Ernie Jupp

Altonian Coaches – Tilling Stevens – GOU 732

GOU 732_lr
Copyright Roger Cox

Altonian Coaches
1949
Tilling Stevens K6LA7
Scottish Aviation C33F

The Chiltern Queens gallery contributed from Ray Soper has recently included references to the former Altonian Tilling Stevens. GOU 732 is a Tilling Stevens K6LA7 with a Scottish Aviation C33F body that was delivered to Altonian Coaches in 1949. The engine is a Gardner 6LW. It is seen here in the summer of 1970 in the rather startling Altonian livery.

One wonders if this vehicle gave SELNEC PTE the "inspiration" (how the English language lends itself to irony) for its grotesque orange/white livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


20/10/11 – 06:50

Would you call it "Burnt Umber" and Cream?
SELNEC was just Orange and White!

Joe


20/10/11 – 06:51

Bizarre to see this posting. Altonian went under two or three years ago and the bones and entrails were divided between Wheelers of Southampton and Orange Coach Travel of Aldershot. By that time Altonian had an uninspired overall orange livery – identical with Orange C T – and the vehicles fitted in easily.
The legacy to Orange C T included two Neoplan Cityliners on Dennis Javelin GX chassis – perhaps the most unreliable vehicles operated by either operator.
[I am the occasional standby part-timer at Orange C T!]

David Oldfield


20/10/11 – 08:24

…and which is the door?! It looks as if it had a centre door, but this now has a sliding ventilator: in front of this it all looks very flush but there’s some gear at the bottom…

Joe


20/10/11 – 08:47

Maybe I’m just gaudy but I thought the Altonian colour scheme looked nice! That bright apricot and cream would have cheered up many a dull day…but the styling does seem to be a little bit of a mismash with those low set headlights and drooping windscreen making the bus look sad but friendly. I wonder how long it survived after the modifications to the entrance began to fail!

Richard Leaman


20/10/11 – 11:46

The good news is that GOU 732 survives in preservation. The last time I saw it (and rode on it!) was at a Heart of the Pennines running day quite a while ago and at that point it was painted in a fictional "Wulfrun Motor Services" livery of green and yellow. Does anybody know of any other preserved Tilling-Stevens PSVs from the post-war period? I seem to remember that there was a Plaxton bodied Express Mk II in preservation at one point. This was the mosel which received similar bodywork to Bedford SBs rather than a half-cab layout.

Neville Mercer


20/10/11 – 15:49

Yes, had a ride on this at the 2010 Kingsbridge 7 foot 6 inch running day, from Kingsbridge to Salcombe and back. It was in the fictitious Wulfrun livery. See the pictures below. As for this livery, it puts me in mind of the famous London Brighton and South Coast Railway loco livery, described (perhaps with tongue in cheek) as "Stroudley’s Improved Engine Green"!

Stephen Ford

Kingsbridge 022

Kingsbridge 042

Kingsbridge 043


21/10/11 – 06:34

Have those with children/grandchildren noticed that’s its actually Bertie the Bus, Thomas the Tank Engine’s friend! Anyway- thanks for the picture of the well-fitting door!

Joe


21/10/11 – 06:36

Roger has certainly got the hump over the SELNEC orange and white livery. While I admit it didn’t sit too well on the older half cabs, particularly where there was an exposed radiator, I thought it suited the newer rear engined vehicles quite well. On the basis that some of the other newly formed PTE’s simply adopted a variation of the livery of the largest operator, at least we in SELNEC land were spared Manchester’s ‘paint it all red’ livery!

Philip Halstead


21/10/11 – 06:37

The colours used for the "Wulfrun" livery are the same shades as the former Wolverhampton Corporation livery hence the name!

Chris Hough


21/10/11 – 10:08

I always thought that SELNEC/GMT Orange and Cream was by far the best new PTE livery. [What about the horrendous South Yorkshire Coffee and cream?] Of course Stockport Red and Cream, Salford Green and Rochdale and Ashton Blue were preferable – but they would never have had a look anyway.

David Oldfield


21/10/11 – 10:10

Tilling_Stevens_coach_lr

Here is a photo of another Tilling Stevens coach, after disposal to a showman, but whether it is a K6LA7 (Gardner) or K6MA7 (Meadows) I know not, though the 6LW is more likely. The bodywork looks like a Strachans design, and the registration LHW 152 is a Bristol area plate. I took this picture on Mitcham Common in 1961. Can our experts come up with more information?

Roger Cox


21/10/11 – 14:47

LHW 152 was issued in October 1948 by Bristol CC so when Roger took that picture the coach was not that old but I will be interested to know whom the original operator might have been. No doubt it was lost many years ago as it does not appear on the DVLA records.

Richard Leaman


24/10/11 – 11:56

My contacts in Bristol tell me that LHW 152 was new to A H Fielding (Empress Coaches) of Bristol, 4/49. TSM K6LA7, body is Strachan C33F.
Withdrawn by them 2/60 and sold to a showman (Hill), Gloucester. I must have seen it in my school days!

Geoff Kerr


25/10/11 – 07:26

The Hill’s were big showground folk in the South West and Billy Butlin wed one of them before he launched his first holiday camp at Skegness.

Chris Hebbron


26/10/11 – 06:04

Geoff..thank you for the information. I recall Empress Coaches very well but not that particular coach. I also remember the Showman, Hills and am sure they used to hold circus shows around the Bristol area. The coach is most unlikely to have survived much into the 1970’s at best I suppose.

Richard Leaman


23/04/12 – 06:00

GOU was at the King Alfred Running Day in Winchester a few years ago. The owner was telling me the livery is that of Wolverhampton corporation, applied in the style he thought they would have used had they gone in for coaches.

Pete Davies


06/11/12 – 13:48

GOU 732_lr

I took this 20 odd years ago at the Outer Circle Rally (itself long defunct). I do not think it was very long after it was rebuilt and repainted from the old Altonian livery. It looked superb, but if it was like the other Scottish Aviation body that came to our body shop it must have been a real labour of love by Mr. Harris.

David Gladwin


06/11/12 – 15:29

David-do not wish your life away the Outer Circle photo was taken between 1998 and 2000. The fictional Wulfrun livery was applied in either 98 or 99.
The vehicle is to be used to celebrate 90th anniversary of Wolverhampton trolleybuses in 2013 as they had TS initially and a TS coach in corporation livery is the nearest anyone is going to get to re-enactment

Roger Burdett


15/11/12 – 16:42

First, what a super website, I only found this by accident. The TS, I believe, also spent some time with Classic Coaches of Wombourne, Staffs.
I remember seeing this some years back dropping school children off in Kingswinford! I very much doubt if they realised just what a classic coach they were travelling on.

William Parker


02/05/14 – 08:13

The vehicle broke down last year on the way to the Wolverhampton event – fuel starvation and problems with the auto vac. It happened again on the way back from Statfold Barn Railway in March. Since then Roger has been working hard to sort out this problem and hopefully it will now be present at Wythall running day on May 4th.

Ken Jones


02/05/14 – 10:22

To make this magnificent Tilling-Stevens even uniquer (that’ll get the language purists going!) it has a 6-speed David Brown gearbox, replacing the original 5-speeder. Unless it’s been changed back since.

Ian T


02/05/14 – 15:15

Ian it still has a 6 speed DB Box but a different one than previously as the old one wore out the gear collar in 5th

Roger Burdett


06/09/15 – 07:05

I remember this TS well as it was my daily transport to school in the late 1970’s into the early 80’s. Recalled from the withdrawn from service row of old coaches kept at the Altonian Coaches depot (Warrens Transport) renovated and put back into service, this was mostly driven by Guy Warren. There was another coach of similar style in the row but this disappeared along with the six wheeler Duple bodied. The TS always had a door at the front and as far as I recall, had green upholstery. Little known is its appearance in the St Trinians movie ‘The Belles of St Trinians’ (1955). It always wore the Altonian colours of orange/cream which looked the part in the 70’s !!

Anon


GOU 732_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


07/10/15 – 06:25

It still has green upholstery.
Looking at David Gladwin comment the body is aluminium framed and has required minimal work to keep it functional.
Issue has been a sticking autovac despite being renewed which means you sometimes have to clump it to keep fuel flowing.
The vehicle is next scheduled to be at Rallies in 2017

Roger Burdett

R Preston of Ferryhill – Tilling Stevens Express – DPT 24

R. Preston of Ferryhill - Tilling Stevens - DPT 24
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

R Preston of Ferryhill (County Durham)
193?/4? – 1938
Tilling Stevens Express
Plaxton C32F

Here is a photo of what I think is a Tilling Stevens Express, the body seems to be a Plaxton D2 pattern job which would date it to the late 1930s early 40s. We did a partial reframe of one – ugh, never forgotten the back was rotten where the sunshine roof drains had long since perished. But if the chassis is an Express then this would surely be a rebody I think. At the time of the photograph this vehicle is being operated by R. Preston on, I suspect, miner’s contract work, the condition is about right for miner’s trucks. I don’t think for a second that the vehicle was new to R Preston but I have no history of its earlier life.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Gladwin


09/11/12 – 07:52

The Durham registration DPT would date this bus to 1938.

Geoff Kerr


09/11/12 – 07:52

The radiator shape, slightly narrower and shorter than the post war variety (which was also slightly curved), suggests that this is probably a petrol engined H39A7 vehicle that was produced from about 1935 up to the cessation of wartime production. The body I cannot identify for certain, but it has definitely seen better days than the one on which the photo was taken.

Roger Cox


09/11/12 – 13:08

I’m pretty sure that this is a Plaxton D3 body. In the Venture Publishing book on Plaxton by Stewart J. Brown, there is a picture of an unidentified D3 on a Leyland Tiger chassis which has all the same features – including the distinctive, heavily arched cab and emergency door window tops, window layout, side flashes, and of course the characteristic shape of the destination boxes. It states that the design appeared towards the end of 1937.

John Stringer


27/02/13 – 06:06

TSM HA39A7, chassis number 8801, new in 5/38 to Coulson, Rushyford (part of the ABC consortium until 1946) with Plaxton C32F body. Passed to Preston, Ferryhill in 1948 and withdrawn 6/54. (Source: PSV Circle publication PA1: Durham District Services).

Dunelm

Portsmouth Corporation – Tilling-Stevens E60A6 – RV1147 – 84

Portsmouth Corporation - Tilling-Stevens E60H6 - RV1147 - 84
Copyright G E Baddeley

Portsmouth Corporation
1932
TSM (Tilling-Stevens) E60A6
English Electric H26/24R

CPPTD lent seven TSM’s and three Leyland TD1’s to supplement the shortage of LPTB’s vehicles. Parked at the Red Deer pub, Croydon, alongside two Ford Y’s and an Austin 14, Portsmouth Corporation’s TSM (Tilling-Stevens) E60A6 is very much on foreign territory, in Surrey. At the very end of its sojourn in London, between October 1940 and March 1941, it’s part of a restful scene in an otherwise turbulent time, with the Blitz in full spate. The low-angled sunlight shows up the lining-out and city crest a treat! Also showing up is the garage/running number plate just below the front downstairs window, the empty holders of which identified many London helpers to the day they were scrapped! Note the absence of anti-blast netting on the windows. It’s on route 12 which, at the other end, reached Oxford Circus. It was probably based at Croydon Garage, a mere 100 yards from the Red Deer, both still existing, although the garage has been re-built.
She got about in London, for I’ve seen a photo of her at Golders Green, too!
CPPTD bought ten of these petrol-engine’d vehicles, with vee-front English Electric bodies, in 1932, numbered 78-87. Two were destroyed in 1941, in Portsmouth, the rest being withdrawn in 1944 (4) , 1946 (1) , 1947 (2) and 1948 (1). Maybe the delivery of nine Daimler CWA6’s enabled them to withdraw the first four, but, with the pressures on buses in this year on other local operators, this is surprising and mysterious. We shall never know now.
All ten buses were lucky, for they were returned to Pompey on 13/14 March 1941, just after Eastney Depot was bombed on the 10th, destroying ten buses!

Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron Photo copyright G E Baddeley


19/11/12 – 08:14

It seems that these buses were lucky twice over, Chris. If they left Croydon Garage (TC) in March 1941, they escaped the devastating damage caused in May 1941 when the depot was hit during the Blitz and caught fire, causing a number of casualties. See:- www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk These TSM double deckers carried the Leyland clone style of radiator adopted in 1931 to replace the antiquated shape worn by the B10 Express. The wheelbase was 13ft. 4½ ins., and the six cylinder 6.972 litre petrol engine (apparently designed in part by Harry Ricardo) developed 109 bhp at 2500 rpm, driving through a four speed crash gearbox. Among the antiquated features carried over from earlier models was the central accelerator pedal, which some manufacturers, Crossley and Dennis being others, seemed curiously reluctant to abandon. The TSM double decker was not a success, with Walsall, Birmingham and Benfleet & District (which soon became part of Westcliff-on-Sea) among the few purchasers in addition to Portsmouth.

Roger Cox


19/11/12 – 10:30

13ft 4½ins seems very short for the wb. though, considering 16ft for contemporary Regents et al (or around that figure anyway).
What I find truly fascinating about this photo is the English Electric body! This style must beat all records when it comes to the amount of different chassis upon which it was placed, from its 1932-6 existence! I cannot think of a Thornycroft version, or, of course, a Bristol, but all the rest of the contemporary competition had examples. Please correct me if I have missed anything!

John Whitaker


19/11/12 – 12:52

That was a bad bombing, Roger. I found an associated link with a photo of the results – see //goo.gl/giEwB. Croydon was a Tilling Garage pre-1933 and hosted many Tilling STL’s, one of which can be seen as a casualty! Thx for the additional information. I wish I knew what the TSM model codes meant; sadly, your information sheds no light on the codes.
Your observation is correct, John W, about the versatile EE body. although it always seemed to grace more Leyland chassis than most others, but that may be a faulty observation!

Chris Hebbron


20/11/12 – 05:19

I think that you are correct, John. The wheelbase figure I gave came from a piece written by Geoff Hilditch many years ago, but I think that it might well be a misprint for 15ft 4½ins. The contemporary original 661 Regent had a wheelbase of 15ft 6½ins.

Chris, I hesitate to be pedantic on this – I have gleaned this info from various sources over the years and am open to correction, but the chassis codes for TSM/Tilling Stevens seem to be based on the following formula:-

First letter = Model type number, this case E

Second group = Engine power (petrol) or manufacturer/no. of cylinders (diesel), which here should probably be the figure 60.
Possibly this reflected the old RAC rating, which was really a measure of engine capacity rather than power.

Third letter = Vehicle purpose. A was the letter for a passenger chassis

Fourth number = wheelbase, 6 being the double deck wheelbase figure of around 15½ feet

Other TSM/Tilling Stevens chassis codes were the H type, as in Dave Gladwin’s posting of the Preston’s of Ferryhill coach, and the familiar ex Altonian K type, K6LA7, in which the ‘6L’stood for 6LW and the final 7 for a wheelbase of around 17½ feet. The later, 30 ft long, full fronted lightweight Express models with four cylinder Meadows engines were coded L4MA8, the last figure denoting a 18ft 7½ins wheelbase. There was also a shorter version of the Express II, with a Perkins P6 engine, the L6PA7. The 5LW powered short wheelbase 30 seater buses ordered by the China General Omnibus Co. which were diverted in wartime to the home market, and the very similar machines bought by the China Motor Bus Co. from 1948 were coded H5LA4 and K5LA4 respectively. The wheelbase on these appears to have been about 13½ feet.

Roger Cox


20/11/12 – 15:19

Thanks for that information Roger, I’ve often wondered too because Notts & Derby had a batch of five double deckers in 1932, coded D60A6, so I imagine they would have been quite similar to the ones above, presumably petrol engines were standard at that time. Was a diesel version offered, if so, what form was it? In spite of them being regarded as not successful, some of them seem to have achieved good service lives, the Notts & Derby ones ran for thirteen years, although perhaps war was a factor in that.
I have a photo of an L4MA8 coach with a Duple body which looks very similar to a Bedford SB of the time (1952). What a shame production ended just as TSM were about to enter the ‘modern’ era!

Chris Barker


20/11/12 – 16:55

Your pedantry is very welcome, Roger, and sheds some light on the somewhat arcane coding system TSM used at that time. Incidentally, I believe that TSM reverted to the Tilling-Stevens name just before the war. Even in the post-war era of distress purchasing, they did not do well, their largest orders coming from Hong Kong; 108 to China Motor Bus and 50 to Kowloon Motor Bus (K5LA7), all delivered in 1947/8. This would make the latter like the Altonian vehicle, but with a Gardner 5LW engine. One of them is preserved.

Chris Hebbron


21/11/12 – 06:47

I believe the Notts and Derby batch were a serious bid by TSM to gain access to the Balfour Beatty Group, where tram abandonments were mooted. The composite Weymann bodies were virtually identical to the Mansfield "Regents" of 1932, which replaced the BB tram system there.
TSM never really recovered from the loss of business with the Tilling companies, with whom they shared some common ancestry, with Bristol becoming the standard "marque" after 1934. Several demonstrators had visited the Group in 1932/3, with no success.

John Whitaker


21/11/12 – 06:48

Roger, I understand that the third letter in Tilling Stevens/TSM vehicle designations stood for the location of the driving position: A denoting forward control and B denoting normal control. Hence the B9B and the B10B were normal control versions of the ‘Express’ B9A and B10A.

Michael Elliott


21/11/12 – 10:00

Yes, that sounds right, Michael. I have looked through all references to TSM/Tilling Stevens/Vulcan, including goods chassis, that I can find, and the only other letter that appears is the ‘B’ that you mention. If the ‘A’ stood for ‘passenger’, the B10B would not fit the scheme, so it must, as you say, denote the driving position. At last, we seemed to have cracked the code.

Roger Cox


21/11/12 – 12:53

Kept wondering what it was that makes this rare and handsome bus look so much newer than it really is, and it’s just occurred to me: the very low radiator and bonnet line!
Thanks to Chris for the posting and to Roger for the very full detail. With a spec like that, and issuing from such a respected stable, the chassis ought to have sold in good numbers, but like the Vulcan Emperor, the Morris-Commercial Dictator, the Thornycroft Daring and the pre-war Guy Arab it just seems to have faded away. Was it cost, or some unsuspected weakness…?

Ian Thompson


21/11/12 – 15:26

Ian, one valuable reference source of Tilling Stevens data is the article written by "Gortonian" (Geoffrey Hilditch, of course) in the old Buses magazine in its superior days of 45 years ago, and republished in his book "Looking at Buses". He states that the double decker’s six cylinder engine, though a new design, had only a four bearing crankshaft instead of the usual seven, and the friction surfaces of the clutch were not attached to either the driving or driven plates, a feature intended to ease maintenance but which didn’t actually work out too well in practice. The chassis retained some antiquated design features and, although this TSM was an advance on its forebears, it still compared unfavourably with the Titan and Regent. As we know, the Tilling Group had lost any interest, literally and financially, in the TSM concern by this date, and the firm found it extremely difficult to gain entry to other markets in the depressed ‘thirties. The low bonnet line is certainly commendable. Some contemporary manufacturers, such as Bristol and Dennis, adopted unnecessarily high bonnet levels apparently to give an impression of power. The pre war Dennis Lance with the very high set oval radiator was possibly the most extreme example of all. The Strachans bodied Aldershot and District Lances of 1937 had tiny cab windscreens, which, coupled with the high bonnet, must have severely limited the driver’s view.

Roger Cox


21/11/12 – 17:28

Others were the Sunbeam Pathan/Sikh (the latter an early posting of mine). I’d forgotten the Vulcan Emperor, of which a few were bought by Southport Corporation, more as support for a local business than for any other reason, I suspect! I’m sure a few were bought elsewhere, but can’t recall, off-hand. You’ve got to feel sorry for folk putting in all that work, to come to naught in the end! Bad period for business, what with the Wall Street crash et al. You’re right about the low radiator/bonnet line giving the TSM a modern look: Leyland TD1/2’s of the same period looked more antiquated, with their radiator shape.

Chris Hebbron


22/11/12 – 07:24

The Vulcan Emperor was certainly a rarity. A picture of Vulcan’s advertisement can be seen here:- www.flickr.com/photos/

Roger Cox


23/11/12 – 08:16

Chris B and John W mention five Notts & Derby TSM D60A6’s, with Weymann bodies, delivered in 1932 and lasting until 1945. Here is an artist’s impression of one: www.cooperline.com  from which it is noticeable that the radiator shell is subtly different. Nice looking vehicle, though.

Chris Hebbron


23/11/12 – 10:06

Nice one Chris!
From photos though, I cannot discern any difference.

John Whitaker


07/12/13 – 07:55

I am currently trawling through seemingly endless internet pages to find out as much as possible about Tilling Stevens machinery. Above, in the very first comment, I say that the wheelbase of the E60A6 was 13ft.4½ins., which is patently erroneous for a 26ft. long bus. John Whitaker quite rightly challenged this figure and suggested 16ft. as being more likely. The Commercial Motor for 21 July 1931 gives the figure of 16ft.1 inch, which also fits the final ‘6’ wheelbase code. John got it right!

Roger Cox


08/12/13 – 08:24

I shall very much look forward to the information you find about Tilling-Stevens/TSM when your ‘digging about’ comes to an end, Roger. The company has always fascinated me.

Rv 1143

In the meantime, I have found a good close-up photo of sister bus No. 80 (RV1143) in the Strand, London, on Express service 12. [Copyright W J Haynes].

Chris Hebbron


08/12/13 – 10:27

Me too Roger. I have always been fascinated by Tilling Stevens: Ever since our Bradford tram seaside "bungalow" was placed at Skipsea in 1948, right next to an ex-North Western single decker!
You mentioned Vulcan "Emperors", another fascinating rarity. Am I correct in thinking Glasgow had the most significant number of this make and type, or was the Southport batch the largest? I am trying to collect as much info. as I can on this subject, but apart from the Southport history published by the Leyland Society, there is very little to go on. Thanks for your efforts.

John Whitaker


08/12/13 – 15:43

Between us, we seem to have cracked the post 1930 chassis designation code, and I am sure that, once I have managed to cobble together some information, our collaborative efforts will eventually unravel the details of earlier types. I am fascinated by this splendid picture, Chris. These buses must have been pretty rare subjects for the transport photographer, so every example is very welcome. What was Express Service 12? Did Portsmouth hold some express road service licences, or was this a wartime picture of an LPTB operation? I note that the front wings are painted white which might suggest the latter, but I can’t read the destination. The terminals of the old route 12 were Croydon and Hendon, though no buses operated the entire length; the route was run in overlapping sections. Did the LPTB run some express sections over established routes in wartime?

Roger Cox


08/12/13 – 18:13

Thanks for the photo, Chris H. English Electric bodywork of this era is another subject "close to my heart", and Pompey was a mecca!
On the PCT theme, is it not strange that Portsmouth escaped the massive bus damage which was inflicted on so many other Luftwaffe targets? No utility trolleybuses were necessary, and only the (6?) Duple CWA6s?

John Whitaker


09/12/13 – 09:23

John W – Vulcan also built bus bodies and some 40 or so were ordered by Birmingham Corporation on AEC Renown Chassis in 1930 and one on a solitary Crossley Condor in 1932. I have a photo of one of the Renowns (424) with badly mangled Vulcan body which I would have assessed as a write-off, yet it was not disposed of until 1945 (Peter Gould). I also had one of a damaged Southport Vulcan somewhere, too, and an advert for them. You are welcome to use them if you wish. They also trialled an Emperor in 1930. Of course, Tilling-Stevens took over Vulcan if memory serves, didn’t they?

Roger C – I notice that Birmingham Corporation took a number of T-S TTA1/2/TS3 with Tilling and LGOC bodies in 1914, then bought some more TS3’s in 1915 and bodied them with bodies taken off some pre-war Daimler chassis requisitioned by the War Dept. in 1914! They also trialled a demonstrator T-S TS3 in 1923 and a C60A6 in 1931, but it came to naught.

Roger/John – Yes, the bus is in Whitehall. I can find nothing on LPTB EXPRESS route 12, save that it appeared to operate only for the duration of the loan of these vehicles, detailed above. The destination box is blank. However, looking at the original of 84 at top of page, that, too, seems to show route 12 and is taken in Croydon, but no EXPRESS label is shown. At this time the other destination was Oxford Circus. The supposition that the route was part-EXPRESS or partly so, may well be correct.
The T-S in the lower photo bus worked out of Nunhead Garage, Peckham, opened, in 1911, by the National Steam Car Co Ltd, from where, ironically, bearing in mind the T-S petrol-electrics, operated another non-standard bus type, Clarkson steam buses, fired by paraffin!

Chris Hebbron


09/12/13 – 14:36

It’s interesting to reflect on these "also ran" manufacturers of the early 1930s. These could include the TSM E60 and related models, Thornycroft Daring, Vulcan Emperor, Morris Commercial Dictator, Gilford 163DOT, Karrier Consort and Sunbeam Sikh and Pathan. Quite possibly the pre-war Guy Arab is an "also ran" in this era of the 1930’s. None of these were effective competition against the mighty AEC Regent and Leyland Titan. Karrier and Sunbeam saved themselves by manufacturing trolleybuses instead. Would it be true to say that Daimler might have been an also ran had it not developed it’s "CO" series with Gardner engine and fluid transmission? The earlier CH and CP series had, I think, limited followings. Somewhere in between this list of also rans and the mighty Leyland and AEC were the likes of Dennis, Crossley and Bristol – the latter two having specific support (Manchester Corporation and the Tilling Group respectively) to boost their success. I agree with the contributor above that Portsmouth was a mecca for the stylish English Electric bodywork. Unfortunately the TSM’s shown had all been withdrawn long before I could be aware of their presence on the streets.

Michael Hampton


09/12/13 – 15:22

Hi Chris H. Yes, I would love to see the Renown bodies by Vulcan. Also the advert! Thanks.
Re. Michael`s comments about other contemporary "rarities", it is interesting to note the position of Guy in all this. I think the FC48 "Invincible" model was more of a contemporary of the "Emperor", etc. It was the mid 1930s before the "Arab" appeared, but as Michael says, it was definitely an "also ran" as were Maudslay and Foden double deck attempts during this time.
Daimler were quite successful though, with the COG5, and to a lesser extent with the COG6, but mainly with the municipal fleets. Interesting thoughts Michael!
Good old Bristol could hold their own though, with any competitors!

John Whitaker


11/12/13 – 06:33

According to Ken Glazier’s excellent tome on London Buses during the Second World War (a book now itself twenty-seven years old), the Express 12 followed the normal 12 but ran limited stop between Dulwich and Trafalgar Square. This operation started on 24th October 1940 and ended after 18th March 1941. The main purpose of these services seems to have been to get people home as early as possible, before the combined effects of the blackout and blitz extended their journey too much. By the following spring the urgency was reduced and the change of focus by the Luftwaffe meant that by the following winter these measures were not needed. They had not, in any case, proved very popular.

David Beilby


11/12/13 – 14:53

Thx, David B, for filling in the gap.
Although nothing can be read into it, it would seem that this bus was not popular, since it appears to be empty!

Chris Hebbron


12/12/13 – 12:20

Thanks, John W, for your comment (on 9th). I agree that the Guy equivalent of the Vulcan Empreror would have been the Guy FC, which was named the Invincible later in it’s production career. The FD Arab came on the scene in 1933, and was more contemporary with the Morris Commercial Dictator offering. I had forgotten Maudslay – was their offering called the Meteor? Memory tells me that Foden only produced one (perhaps two double deckers pre-1939. One was registered AMB 834, and had a body with a very sloping front profile in a straight line from upper deck top window right down to the front mudguard. I think it worked for a Cheshire or North Wales independent. I can’t trace the books I need to check these items, so apologies if my memory is faulty – no doubt you good folk out there will add your own memories and facts as needed.

Michael Hampton


12/12/13 – 15:36

Michael, the pre (1939-45) war Foden double decker appeared in 1934, and it would seem that three examples were made. AMB 834 had a Burlingham body with the features you describe, and was purchased by the Ebor Bus Company of Mansfield. A little bit of history about this company may be found here:- www.ourmansfieldandarea.org.uk/
The fates of the other two Foden ‘deckers seem to be more elusive to researchers.

Roger Cox


12/12/13 – 15:38

Michael. The only pre war Foden I can bring to mind was the one supplied to Ebor, of Mansfield. This had a sloping front right down to the base. Not sure exactly when it was delivered, or who bodied it.Maybe Burlingham?
Coventry referred to their Maudslay double deckers, from 1929 to 1931, as "Magna", I believe, including both 4 and 6 wheel versions. I have also seen reference to them described as "Mentor", so hope someone can clarify.
Thanks for the "Arab" clarification. I think the first one was for West Riding, with a Roe CE body, but have always thought that the "Arab" was simply a Gardner engined development of the FC. Certainly, its chassis "geometry" is in line with the FC , being much more a relic of the TD1 era.
Would n`t it be nice if we could bring all this detail from all these 1929/32 attempts at AEC/Leyland competition together in one document!

John Whitaker


13/12/13 – 07:31

Guy double deckers always seemed to be rare in the 1930’s although Cheltenham District bought some (were they called Invincibles?). Another company was Albion which built the Venturer (1932-39 and CX (1937-39), which did not really penetrate south of the Border very much between the wars and not that much in Scotland to my knowledge. Glasgow had some, but also bought Leylands and AEC’s quantity (ever pervasive!). Dundee – NIL. Aberdeen – ?. Scotland never seemed so supportive of Albion as many North Country municipalities were to firms like Crossley and the like in that era. Yet they were sound and reliable vehicles to be trusted.

Chris Hebbron


13/12/13 – 11:42

FWIW, David B, I came across another EXPRESS route which ran for a slightly shorter period: 7/11/40-19/3/41 – same reason given. This was the 47, running from London Bridge, stopping only at Lewisham, Catford, Bromley (Market Place), then all stops to Bromley Garage.

Chris Hebbron


16/12/13 – 07:28

Following on from my posting of 9/12/13, I’ve found details of TS models, with dates into service, which might fill in more blanks: 1924 – TS5X and TS3A, 1925 – TS6, 1926 – TS5A, 1927/1928 – TS6, 1928 & 1931, both T-S and TSM B10A2.

Chris Hebbron


21/12/13 – 07:19

OOps! – In my list of "also rans" for double-decker chassis manufacturers, I mentioned Morris Commercial. I wrongly noted the Dictator, which was a single-deck chassis. The d/d equivalent was the Imperial. This was sold to Birmingham and East Kent (and I think Edinburgh, too?). Also my thanks to Roger Cox for linking my description of the Foden to the bus I had in mind – the Burlingham bodied example owned by Ebor of Mansfield. (Now another digression – Ebor is the Latin name for York – is this a co- incidental use of the fleetname, or is there a specific connection between the Ebor of Mansfield bus company and the city of York?).

Michael Hampton


21/12/13 – 11:46

It would appear that Ebor, besides being the ecclesiastical title of the Archbishop of York, was also the name of a famous nineteenth century racehorse. Perhaps the diocese should submit an entrant to the London Marathon. This link www.ourmansfieldandarea.org.uk/  gives a bit of information about the Ebor Bus Company, but it contains no indication about the origin of the name.

Roger Cox


21/12/13 – 15:20

The Roman town was actually called Eboracum, not just the Bishop! This shuffled into Jorvik (as in the heritage centre) with the Danish invasion and then this gradually became York. Similarly Danum Corporation Transport (the Crimson Lake chariots)- all right, Doncaster.

Joe


02/04/15 – 09:04

The Portsmouth Corporation Tilling Stevens seen on the Red Deer forecourt in South Croydon was photographed between October 1940 and February 1941. The row of houses behind the bus, and the school behind the houses were flattened when a bomb fell on the school on 5th February 1941. About 100 yards to the left, the South Croydon bus garage was bombed on 10th May 1941, destroying the building and 65 buses which had been refuelled ready for the next morning. Seven men were killed in the explosion.

H. Daulby


30/08/15 – 06:55

The most Vulcan Emperors amassed by anybody were the 25 the Glasgow Corporation transport ran.
Vulcan itself was bankrupt by 1934. The liquidators sold the name to TSM.
As for the 1933-40 Guy Arab Robin Hannay has some detail about it it the current (August-September 2015) number of Classic Bus; in it he also mentions the solitary Sunbeam DF1.
Also Ebor bus Company of Mansfield were connected with Ebor general Stores of York.

Stephen Allcroft


31/08/15 – 06:36

The Ebor Bus Company was an offshoot of Ebor Trading Ltd. of Walmgate in York. Part of their business involved financing vehicle purchases for various operators, one of which was Rudolph Twaites of Lockton, near Pickering, who ran buses into York from Pickering and Malton. Mr Twaites possible over-stretched his finances and the vehicles and business passed to Ebor Trading in 1929. This business became the Ebor Bus Company. Possibly the Mansfield business was acquired in a similar fashion. The York Operations were sold to West Yorkshire Road Car Company in 1930.

David Hick


28/12/17 – 07:56

I have no knowledge of buses but have got a photograph of a Tilling-Stevens bus which is being loaded at Folkestone Harbour. The reg date is about 1921 and bus is a petrol electric double decker, and looks very new.
My interest is in researching and building a model of the Folkestone Harbour railway.
There are a number of possibilities of why a bus was being loaded onto a ferry steamer for France. A return of a bus from France after WW1 is discounted as none were shipped out. The best that I can offer is that holidays by coaches to France were being offered via Dover, and Folkestone was trying out a new steam crane to load the bus.
Please can anyone advise, with many thanks,

David Austin


24/07/18 – 07:21

A very good picture of one of these TSM double deckers in wartime service with London Transport may be found on the following page (scroll down a bit):- www.hampsteadheath.net/bus-slides.html  Click on the picture for a larger view.

Roger Cox


25/07/18 – 06:08

Thx for posting the link of 82, Roger. This is the photo that I mentioned in the second paragraph in my initial blurb, taken at Golders Green.
As an aside, I said that seven TSM’s and three Leyland TD1’s were lent to London Transport at that time, Ironically, we’ve seen three photos of the former, yet I’ve seen none of the latter!

Chris Hebbron


26/07/18 – 06:42

I’m joining this dialogue at a late stage (7/18). I ived in Paulsgrove as a lad and remember changing at Hilsea Lido on the way home to the 21. It always struck me as a powerful vehicle especially when conducting a hill start with a full load in Paulsgrove. There were two buses scheduled for the 21 nearly always CWA6’s. As a small boy in the late 1940’s I remember the original bodies as they had wooden slatted seats. They operated on the then J/K route between Highbury and Wymering. Later in life I spent a short time as a Southdown driver operating out of the Hilsea garage.

Terry Ward


28/07/18 – 06:37

Thanks for your comment, Terry. Here’s a post I did some time ago about the re-bodied Daimler CWA6’s //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=5211. I lived in Pompey from 1956-1976, but missed seeing the original Duple-bodied ones as I was in the RAF from 1956-1959 and it was in 1959 that they were re-bodied. The corporation were late to have them re-bodied, being lucky to have their utility vehicles bodied by Duple, who probably built the best quality bodies from a hotch-potch of steel and green wood. On one occasion they rejected a delivery of this wood as being virtually unworkable, a close-to treasonable act during WWII! London Transport, who still had some clout during the war, managed to take delivery of all 281 of its Daimler CWA/CWD6’s bodied by Duple and even persuaded the Ministry of War TRansport to have Duple build a lowbridge version of their body, too.
PHotos of Portsmouth’s Duple-bodied Daimlers are very rare and have eluded me so far, but I did see a photo of the rear of one of them in North End Garage and was surprised to note that rear blind boxes had been installed in them, possibly the only case where this was done.
Riding in them for me was a depressing experience. With only 9 buses with pre-selective gearboxes in the fleet, the drivers used to abuse the gearboxes terribly and it’s to the credit of the makers and corporation fitters that they kept going for so long.

Chris Hebbron


29/07/18 – 07:33

Chris, the Pompey Daimler utilities were re-bodied in 1955, not 1959. That explains why you saw none of them in their original condition! It has become a recent myth to give the 1959 date, I don’t know it’s origin, but the true date is 1955. They then lasted until 1965, being replaced by the final nine MCCW-bodied Leyland PDR1/1s (246-254 with ERV-D registrations). Some of those Atlanteans (5 of the 9) were converted to open-toppers, renumbered 7-11, and I think some survive today. That makes a vague link back to those Daimlers in a way, and looking at a fleet history, the Daimlers will have replaced some of the TSM E60A6s at the head, so we can connect the whole thread!

Michael Hampton


30/07/18 – 06:31

I originally put 1955 in my other blurb, but didn’t look at it to refresh my memory and must have fallen for a later mention of 1959, which neatly, but inaccurately fell into line with my RAF service! I’m thinking that Route 21 was originally route J/K, or is that rubbish, too, Michael? Have you ever seen a photo of the Duple-bodied buses?
Mention of my RAF service has just brought to my mind how awkward I used to feel on the few occasions I had to come home to Pompey and be the lone figure in blue/grey amid a sea (pun!) of uniformed matelots!

Chris Hebbron


01/08/18 – 07:27

Unusually for Portsmouth Corporation at the time, route 21 (Hilsea – Paulsgrove) was bi directional. Once route 3-4 was converted from trolley to diesel, it was extended from Cosham to Paulsgrove and replaced route 21.
Route J-K began some time before 21. It was later re-designated 23-24. Part of a caption on page 97 of Bob Rowe’s ‘Portsmouth Corporation Transport’ states "Space does not permit an explanation of the rather complicated history of these two services (J & K respectively) which strictly speaking were not a pair."
I was born in, and grew up, in Portsmouth, but the area served by J-K was uncharted territory for me. A classmate told me that the service was difficult to understand unless you travelled on it. Maybe Mr. Hebbron or others are able to elucidate.

Andy Hemming


01/08/18 – 07:37

Hi Chris, unfortunately the erroneous 1959 date is now in print, in the Portsmouth Corporation Transport Super Prestige Series (No. 26) – a photo caption on p.60 has it as a given date. I must have seen the Daimlers with Duple bodies in action, as they seem to have been used on the J/K service, which wasn’t far from where I lived. But I don’t recall them, and the photos I have seen are in books such as the one I’ve just mentioned. Service 21 was a completely new route, started as a feeder from a developing part of Paulsgrove housing estate to Hilsea Lido, where passengers could then change to other service into town. In 1955, it was the first numeric bus service for many years (c.1927) – all other motor bus routes were lettered. It was also the first to be numbered the same for both directions rather than paired as, say, 21/22. Towards the end of 1960, it became part of route 3/4 (Cosham to South Parade Pier), which was converted to motor bus from trolleybus, and extended from Cosham to Hillsley Road. The J/K service was entirely separate (apart from some common roads in Cosham), and my memory says it started in war-time, although it had it’s origins in a private service from the Highbury Estate to Cosham. When the Corporation decided to rid themselves of lettered bus routes, it became 23/24, in c. 1961/62. At about that time, I was in Combined Cadet Force at school, and opted for the RAF – so you weren’t the only one flying the colours!

Michael Hampton


22/04/19 – 07:27

For those interested, there is an article on Tilling-Stevens on the Local Transport History Library website:- //www.lthlibrary.org.uk/index.html
This site, which has many illustrated fleet histories and fleet lists, is run by a group of transport enthusiasts with past and present associations with the psv industry. The secretary is Peter Gould, and the LTHL project entirely replaces, updates and improves Peter’s former bus operator listings, which are now redundant. This important transport reference resource is well worth a visit, and LTHL has now added a link to OBP.

Roger Cox


23/04/19 – 07:19

Thx, Roger, for the heads-up on LTHL. I shall enjoy reading the intriguing T-S story PDF Booklet and make a donation to support this effort.

Chris Hebbron


RV 1147_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


31/10/19 – 05:58

The Portsmouth Corporation J/K post-war route operated as a circular route around Wymering Estate linking the Estate with Cosham High Street (shopping centre) and beyond to Highbury Estate. The service was operated by by Leyland, English Electric, and Craven bodied Leyland engined TD4 back loaders until the early 1960s when the one-man band Single decker took over with the service redesigned 23/24. The J/K were indeed linked, with one being the reverse of the other. So in effect both the J and K ran in both directions between the section Sixth Avenue – Cosham High Street – Chatsworth Avenue – Highbury Estate. I hope this clarifies. There are photographs on line of buses running on the route. Prewar I have found evidence of the J/K running on the future 9/10 post-war trolleybus route. Cosham – Twyford Avenue – PALMERSTON Road – Fratton Road – Cosham Red Lion. These were apparently operated by the same above Leyland TD4 type buses.

Bernard Robinson


31/10/19 – 13:38

Bernard, just a note about Portsmouth’s J/K. The Highbury/Wymering route was, I believe, started c.1942, and didn’t have identifying letters at first. The pre-war situation for this area was a 7-seat limousine running between Highbury and North End and no Wymering connection. The limo was a 1929 Daimler [JG 522] which was purchased by the Corporation in 1935, and sold in 1942. The builder of the Highbury Estate had instigated a service using a Dennis 20-seat saloon from Highbury to Cosham [High Street?], and because it was over initially private roads, no license was needed. However, as the estate neared completion, he offered the service to the Corporation. I have never read any account of the estate’s Dennis saloon, but the Corporation didn’t take it over – even though they had experience of that make of single-deckers. The route letters used pre-war were two services, one was I/J, the other K/L – two separate routes, although they may have had common roads in part. But they were nothing to do with the Highbury/Wymering service as far as I am aware.

Michael Hampton

Worthing Motor Services – Tilling Stevens – IB 552

Worthing Motor Services - Tilling Stevens - IB 552

Worthing Motor Services
1914
Tilling Stevens TS3
Newman O40RO

Here is a 1914 Tilling Stevens TS3 with a 1909 Newman O40RO body. She was once registered as CD4952 and is resident at Amberley, where we see her on 21 September 2014. Whilst she is normally regarded as a Southdown vehicle, she’s actually lettered for Worthing Motor Services, a precursor of Southdown. The Northern Ireland registration is not part of the current fad for such things, in order to disguise the age of the vehicle, usually a coach. No, the history of Wilts & Dorset mentions that Southdown and Wilts & Dorset shared management at one time. That management had some peculiar arrangement whereby their vehicles could be registered either in Brighton or in County Armagh. The IB plate relates to her original registration.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


16/02/16 – 14:55

The pre-war (1914-18) Tilling-Stevens machines of this type were TS3. With some post war refinements the model became the TS3A. Much misinformation abounds about Tilling-Stevens in print and on the internet. The TS3A is sometimes stated to have been a forward control model. It was not. The first Tilling-Stevens forward control models were the TS6 and the TS7, though some TS3 and TS4 buses were modified to that configuration with some design input from Maidstone. The ‘A’suffix to Tilling-Stevens nomenclatures did not signify forward control (‘B’ indicated normal control) until the advent of the B9/B10 and the subsequent models of 1926 onwards. The TS3 was initially conceived to replace the lightweight TTA1 and meet the stringent conditions laid down by the Public Carriage Office of the Metropolitan Police for operation in London – maximum length: 23ft 0 ins, max width 7ft 2ins, max wheelbase 14 ft 6ins, max laden weights:- front axle 2 tons, rear axle 4 tons, max unladen weight of vehicle 3 tons 10 cwts. The famous London B and the later K type were also designed to conform with these conditions. As delivered, the machine shown above almost certainly had the protective vertical bars in front of the radiator, a feature that Tilling-Stevens retained after other manufacturers had adopted styled grilles in front of the radiator proper. This gave Tilling-Stevens machines an antiquated appearance that, in respect of the B10 in particular, was not borne out by their reliable performance. Tilling-Stevens offered the heavier TS4 for provincial operation, but the TS3A seems to have been the preferred model for many operators at home and abroad – it was quite successful in the export market.

Roger Cox


27/05/16 – 06:17

A further note to the above. The TS3 was significant in being the first Tilling-Stevens model to accommodate transverse seating in the lower saloon, but the preserved example at Amberley carries an older style body with perimeter seating. It is, of course, a splendid restoration, but it is not a true representative of its type.

Roger Cox

Western National – Tilling Stevens – JY 124 – 3379

JY 124

Western National Omnibus Co Ltd
1932
Tilling-Stevens
Beadle B35R

JY 124 is a Bristol L, dating from . . . NO!

Despite the Bristol radiator, this is actually a Tilling-Stevens, new to Western National (fleet number 3379) in 1932, and given a new Beadle body in 1947. After some years in use with a fairground operator, it was rescued for preservation, and we see it during the open day at Winkleigh on 3 October 1999. Jenkinson (1978) lists it as a B49A7 while the PSVC 2012 listing notes it as a B39A7. Is there a typing error here, or did the specification change at some point in its history?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


18/12/16 – 13:30

I’d like to warn the readership that this is another in a series of "Not quite what they seem" views. The Darwen Regent V (434 BTE) published a few days ago was in this category, and there are several others in the pipeline subject, of course, to their passing our Editor’s filters.

Pete Davies


18/12/16 – 13:31

From August 1930 Tilling-Stevens (there should be a hyphen between the two words) adopted the abbreviated branding of T.S.M. to allay the perception that the company still had links with the Tilling Group. JY 124 is, or was originally, a B39A7 of May 1932, when it was fitted with a Beadle B32R body. This model was an undated version of the very successful B10 type that first appeared in 1928, that was itself a development of the 1926 B9. From 1931 T.S.M. adopted an alphabetical sequence for its mechanically geared ranges, and, as the letter ‘B’ had already been adopted for the B9/B10, the next model used the letter ‘C’, and so on. The designation B39A7 means:
B – model type
39 – the engine is the four cylinder 5.12 litre Ricardo designed side valve petrol unit that ultimately developed about 75 bhp
A – forward control
7 – the wheelbase is around 17ft 6ins (UK single deck length)
The B49A7 was a much rarer variant using the four cylinder 106 bhp four cylinder 6.97 litre petrol engine used in the TS15A and TS17A petrol electrics. By 1947 the body of JY 124 had been updated to B35R, and the chassis had acquired a Gardner 4LW engine, thus making the chassis technically B4LA7, the ‘4L’ indicating the 4 cylinder Gardner.
In 1937 T.S.M. abandoned the abbreviated badging and reverted to the Tilling-Stevens name.

Roger Cox


19/12/16 – 08:54

Thank you, Roger!

Pete Davies


01/08/17 – 07:34

I think it is strictly incorrect to refer to the radiator on JY 124 as a Bristol radiator. The radiator was manufactured by Coventry Radiators, and is of the same pattern as they supplied to Bristol for use on its buses but I believe they were acquired by WNOC/SNOC direct from Covrad. Similar radiators were available on general sale. I have seen one attached to a generator unit.
As regards the chassis designation, I have been told in the past that it was suffixed with the word ‘Express’.

Peter Cook


02/08/17 – 06:57

Tilling-Stevens adopted the name "Express" – optimistically for a bus with a four cylinder 64 bhp 5.12 litre petrol engine – for the B9 of 1926 and the B10 of 1928, the latter becoming the most successful T-S type in terms of sales in the company’s existence. The B10 was updated over subsequent years through the B39 and (larger engined) B49 models, almost invariably of A7 wheelbase, finally becoming the HA39 and HA49 by 1935. The name was revived in 1950 for the very basic flat framed 30ft by 8ft Meadows 4DC330 80 bhp engined L4MA8 model which was hopefully christened "Express MkII". It was Tilling-Stevens’ swansong and did not sell very well. At the end of 1950, by which time the Bedford SB had arrived on the scene, the Maidstone company sold out to the Rootes group.

Roger Cox


03/08/17 – 06:50

I meant to add that the radiator badge on the WNOC TSM’s was ‘Western National’ rather than the Bristol scroll. Took me a long time with a hand lens peering at Alan Cross’s pictures of the bus in Tavistock and Okehampton to figure out what it said.

Peter Cook

Southampton Corporation – Thornycroft Daring – OW 3434 – 9

Southampton Corporation Thorneycroft Daring

Southampton Corporation
1933
Thornycroft Daring DDFC
Park Royal H28/26R

Here is a rare beast, an ex Southampton Corporation Thornycroft Daring. It was one of 9 such vehicles they bought, in penny numbers, between 1933 and 1937. They were all withdrawn in 1946 and sold. No.9 went to Safeway of London and, in the critical vehicle shortage days post-war, around 1949, it was pressed into service with London Transport. Note the LT roundel (on the radiator) that all such hired vehicles carried. I should add that it was very rare for London Transport to hire double deckers. The bus looks fairly presentable for one with an expected design life of 10 years, yet now 16 years of age, including the trials and tribulations of wartime minimal maintenance, even neglect. And there’s even a shine to the bodywork, which shows no signs of sag. Sad to say, it was not preserved.
Thornycroft buses were not that common – Southampton Corporation probably bought them because the company had factories in Southampton and Basingstoke.

Incidentally, the car following the bus is a Triumph Renown.

Photograph and copy contributed by Chris Hebbron


Thornycroft Darings were very rare, SHMD Joint Board having the biggest fleet with just sixteen. Sadly, bus design was advancing so fast in the 1930s that Thornycroft were always just a bit "off the pace" being set by the technological leaders Leyland, AEC and Daimler.
The SHMD buses all had Gardner 6LWs, and Southampton’s last four 5LWs, but some had Thornycroft’s own petrol or (not very good) diesel. By all accounts the light chassis and big engine in the Joint Board buses made them very quick on hills, if noisy!
The SHMD buses also ran for sixteen years, and some were sold for non-psv use, so they were pretty tough. As far as I can trace, only one Daring survives, and that is a shortened instructional chassis in a museum in Sydney, the remains of a lonely export model!

David Jones


It’s true that SHMD was a large buyer of Thornycroft buses – I’ve counted some 104 of various models between 1925 and 1936. There were a total of 13 Darings spread over 1933, 1935 and 1936, all with Gardner 6LW engines. The very last one to survive did not go until 1959! Maybe it was a ‘learner’. The unusual thing about some 1925 Thorneycrofts was that they had Vickers bodies. I never knew that Vickers built bus bodies; one always thinks that aircraft was their forté!

Chris Hebbron


Sorry, definitely sixteen Darings at Stalybridge:
144 (ex-demonstrator with Beadle body)1933
145-149 (5) 1933/1934
150-155 (6) 1935
156-159 (4) 1936
147 & 148 were actually delivered with Thornycroft diesels, but SHMD knew a lemon when they saw one, and quickly swapped them for 6LWs.
Vickers built a good many bodies in the early/middle twenties, particularly on Thornycroft chassis; many were supplied to the GWR. The probable explanation is that at that period, bus chassis builders normally offered their products complete with a standard body which was sub-contracted to anybody with the spare capacity to take on the work at the time. Thus many Leyland TD1s with the standard Leyland body were actually built by Northern Counties and others to Leyland drawings. In later years this practice died out, mainly because operators had more idea of what they wanted and laid down more exacting specifications rather than just accepting what was offered.
Thornycrofts would have been on close terms with Vickers through the warship side of their business, as Vickers would have supplied most of the guns fitted to Thornycroft-built destroyers, so they were perhaps the obvious people to ask when bodies were needed. Vickers in turn would be desperate for work with the collapse of War Office orders for tanks, guns and aircraft at the end of the Great War.
Metropolitan Vickers supplied steel body frames to Manchester Corporation as late as 1933, but like many other early attempts at steel framing they very rot-prone and the vehicles concerned were rebodied sooner than should have been necessary. That seems to have been the end of Vickers attempts to build bus bodies.

David Jones


I defer to you, David, on numbers! I assume that neither you nor anyone else has a photo of several of these Darings together!

Chris Hebbron


As far as I know the record for a picture of Darings is the photo taken at Northern Counties in 1935, which shows all that year’s batch for SHMD; sadly they’re not finished, let alone painted! SHMD Darings do seem to have been very camera-shy!

David Jones


17/10/11 – 07:26

Referring to Dave Jones` comment about Leyland, I always had the impression, due to similarities of design, that many Leyland bodies in the late 30s and 40s were built by Alexanders and Park Royal.

Jim Hepburn


17/10/11 – 11:39

Indeed Jim, that’s true, and a good number of early postwar PD1 Titans had bodies contracted out to Alexander, Samlesbury and even one, in Samuel Ledgard’s batch of six in 1946, Lancashire Aviation – despite its aeronautical origin however, the latter was no more spritely than the other five !!

Chris Youhill


26/05/12 – 20:23

I’m a bit surprised to find that there is no reference in the list to the left of either Hants & Dorset or Wilts & Dorset. Whatever has this to do with a Thornycroft bus? Well, The Red & White group – which is listed – had as a subsidiary Venture of Basingstoke. It was passed to Wilts & Dorset at Nationalisation. There’s a chapter on Venture in "The Definitive History Of Wilts & Dorset 1915 – 1972" (by Colin Morris and Andrew Waller). It seems that it was established as a means of getting staff home and back to the factory in their lunch break, hence a "venture" on the part of the company management. Mrs Thornycroft (JI’s daughter in law) is cited as being the inspiration.

Pete Davies


27/05/12 – 11:30

Vickers of Crayford were one of the biggest builders of bus bodies in the 1920s, and they, also, produced the standard TD1 body for Leyland, the batches for Bradford being examples of this.
Southampton Corporation had many J type Thornycrofts in the 1920s, and also a batch of 6 wheel double deckers with English Electric bodies about 1929, so their small numbers of Darings were perhaps just a token order bearing in mind the earlier close relationship. SCT, in that period, were perhaps equally well known for contemporary purchases of Guy Arab models, with both composite, and metal framed Park Royal bodies, but they settled down after the 1936 orders, with the good old Leyland Titan, reverting to Arabs in the post war era.

John Whitaker


28/05/12 – 08:08

Nottingham City Transport bought four Thorneycroft Darings with Gardner 5LW engines from Southampton in 1947. The four were OW 9932, AOW 263, AOW 264, AOW 265.
The NCT fleet numbers were 122 to 125 and the Southampton fleet numbers 6 and 60 to 62. These buses didn’t last long with NCT as all had been withdrawn and sold by 1949.

Michael Elliott


24/11/15 – 06:13

Vickers built PSV bodies and railway carriages in the 1920s in factories at Crayford Surrey and in Nottingham. The works manager at Crayford in 1924 was Bill Black who was later Chairman of Leyland Motor Corporation.
Metropolitan Viockers and Cammell Laird later merged their coachbuilding interests to form Metro-Cammell, based in Birmingham, who worked very closely and later took over Weymann of Addlestone.

To Jim Hepburn,
Alexander built bodies to Leyland pattern from 1942 to 1948 or so. If you want a good idea of how a Leyland Utility would have looked, an Alexander TD4 rebuild would give a good idea.
Park Royal did not build to Leyland Outlines in the 1940s but other firms that did were Lancaster Aircraft Corporation and Samlesbury Engineering.
Massey Brothers built to the original Leyland steel reinforced Hardwood pattern into the late 1930s customers including Wigan Corporation and J. Fishwick & Sons.

Stephen Allcroft


08/03/17 – 06:15

When I was at Clifton College Bristol Preparatory School in the 1950’s we would be driven to our sports fields across Clifton Suspension Bridge in one of two Thorneycroft buses. They were impressively ancient, the driver sat outside with only a sort of porch roof to cover him. I remember a large fly off hand brake, a bulb horn and spoke wheels. I wonder what happened to these buses and whether anyone has a photograph of them with their College livery on their sides?

James Rooke


25/01/19 – 07:02

As a very belated postscript to the discussion on Vickers bodies, I recently discovered why Vickers stopped building bus bodies -sort of. In the mid-thirties they bought a major share in Metro-Cammell, having obviously decided that it was just easier to buy in the expertise than to struggle on alone. It’s all rather reminiscent of the way they bought Supermarines out to get hold of R J Mitchell, if rather less glamorous!

David Jones


01/10/19 – 07:07

ccbps

Your correspondent James Rooke asks for photographs of the Thornycroft ‘buses which were used here for many years. The attached come from D. Winterbottom, Clifton after Percival (1990). p. 98; despite the caption the photographs were taken in 1965; at any rate the negatives we hold are of that date. ‘B.B’ means Beggar’s Bush, the site of playing fields on the other side of the Avon Gorge.

Dr C S Knighton


01/10/19 – 15:23

A possible explanation of the disparity between caption and negative dates.
The original negative, or even plate, had been lost so a photographic copy has been taken of original enlargements.
I have had this done, before the days of computer scanners, in order to pass photos of ancestors to other family members.

John Lomas


04/02/21 – 10:03

There were three of these Thornycroft model K buses when I was at ‘Clifton Prep’ in the late 40’s. One afternoon on the bridge returning from the playing fields the driver misjudged the width of the bridge which was narrow & the bus body struck the ironwork above the left front side glass which shattered. I was sitting at the back & had a good view of the incident, luckily no one was hurt. The wood floors were so worn you could look through & see the drive shaft revolving. The seating was along each side & across the back. The drivers used the starting handle, no electric starter. I was told they were 1926 models. About 1949 they replaced the damaged bus with a Bedford, the superbly durable model K [made 1939 to 1953].

Douglas

D J Jones (Crymych) – Thornycroft – DE 6181

D  J  Jones (Crymych) - Thornycroft - DE 6181

D. J. Jones (Crymych)
1927
Thornycroft ??
?????

This Thornycroft was first registered to D. J. Jones in September 1927. The body maker is not known but is possibly Thomas & Thomas of Carmarthen who built many for this area’s operators. It is seen here carrying children to school in Crymmych (accepted spelling at the time) and the owner is at the wheel. Also on board are his son and daughter and a young William Stanley Rees who would later work for D. J. Jones as a mechanic and driver. Later still, Stan Rees would set up his own garage before taking over the buses operated by Edwards Bros, also of Crymmych, and eventually calling his bus company Midway Motors. Midway still operate, now in the hands of Mrs Elan Rees and her three sons (grandsons of W.S. Rees) whilst the daughter of D. J. Jones still operates school runs with an LDV Convoy. I am currently attempting to write the story of these North Pembrokeshire operators and invite any Old Bus Photos readers to input any information at their disposal!

Photograph courtesy of Mrs Decima Harries with Copy by Les Dickinson


27/01/14 – 08:16

Around 1924, the War Office revived the ‘subvention’ or ‘subsidy’ scheme under which vehicles of an approved design suitable for military use would command an initial subsidy to set against the purchase price, and then an annual subsidy for three years. This, it was considered, would provide a ready fleet of suitable machines for commandeering should hostilities recommence. The Thornycroft offering was the A1 with a wheelbase of 11ft 6ins, but a stretched version called the A1 Long appeared in 1925 with a wheelbase of 14ft. Uprated versions for 2 ton loads called the A2 and A2 Long followed in 1926 This seems to be an example of the A1 Long or A2 Long, which had a side valve engine of 3.62 litres producing 36 bhp at 1500 rpm, a four speed crash gearbox and a worm drive rear axle. The source of this detail is Alan Townsin’s book on the manufacturer.

Roger Cox


28/01/14 – 13:19

How many times do we look admiringly at old photos of buses and coaches from earlier times and think "What a fine example of the coachbuilder’s craft"? Couldn’t really say that about this one in all honesty!

John Stringer


28/01/14 – 16:37

Is it in a rut, or is that rear tyre under-inflated? Nevertheless, a really interesting photograph…I really like viewing the ancient photos of the beginnings of public transport, not just for the vehicles, but the old street scenes, and the clothing worn in those days. My father would have been 9 yrs old in 1927, and I imagine that a sight of this type of bus would have been nothing out of the ordinary.

Norman Long


31/08/14 – 08:30

I was transported to school from Llandissilio to Narberth between 1954 / 1956 in a Sentinel just like ODE 182, I remember the sword on the front,it appealed to a ten year old. I wonder how many 1949 models like that one that Edwards of Crymych operated.

Richard


01/09/14 – 07:30

Yours was probably NDE 689 Richard. It was delivered to Pritchard, Narberth in September 1951 but was sold to Edwards Bros, Crymych in June 1953. They had two of their own. Roberts (Pioneer) Newport had two, Harries, Prendergast had one.

Les Dickinson


10/03/17 – 06:54

I well remember Dai John Jones as a wonderful character, his wife was a cousin of mine. Dai John drove me and my Mother to Bristol in June 1941, at the height of the blitz. He stayed for a night before driving back – we all had to sleep in an air-raid shelter. Regretfully I have lost touch with his family, Denley and Daish (not sure of the spelling there). I believe Denley emigrated and when I last enquired, Daish still lived above the garage. I recall Dai John’s coaches ferrying pupils to and from Cardigan county School in 1941.

James Davies


10/03/17 – 08:44

James Davies, I can confirm that Denley emigrated to Australia. I can confirm that his sister Decima, aka Dess or Dessie, still lives above the garage. She eventually retired in 2016 and had continued with a minibus on a school contract right up to that time. She was subject of a TV programme after 60 years of coach driving. I spent some time talking to her in preparation for a book all about the operators in Crymych & Maenclochog, a lovely lady with an excellent memory. Her coffee and scones were nice too! The DJJ story makes interesting reading and I hope that my publisher will be taking this one as soon as they finish work on my Cardigan book.

Les Dickinson


18/06/17 – 06:56

Sorry to be so long getting back and thank you, Les Dickinson, for your most interesting comments. I look forward to seeing your Cardigan book. I also hope to be able to reach the area some time this year and will be making an effort to call at Crymych. It would be great to meet Dess again.

James Davies


18/06/17 – 07:56

James, I am currently checking and amending the proof copy and will be returning it to the publisher in the next few days. They have a little work left to do but will be sending to printers very soon.
The publisher will then accept the Crymych/Maenclochog book as soon as this Cardigan one goes to print. Perhaps we might meet when you are in the area and see if you have anything to add to the book before they call it in? Peter will put you in touch with me if you think this is a good idea.

Les Dickinson


22/06/17 – 05:54

Thank you again, Les Dickinson. I should be delighted to meet you when I am next in the Crymych area.

James Davies

Portsmouth Corporation – Thornycroft J – BK 2986 – 10

Portsmouth Corporation - Thornycroft J - BK 2986 - 10

Portsmouth Corporation
1919
Thornycroft J
Dodson O16/18RO

BK 2986 is a Thornycroft J, built in 1919 for Portsmouth Corporation. It originally had a Wadham O16/18RO seater body but was rebodied in 1926 with an ex London General AEC B 1920 Dodson O16/18RO body. Having been built in Basingstoke, it is fitting that she is seen in the Milestones museum there, one of three Portsmouth buses. Note the tram tracks – there’s a Portsmouth tram there as well. The photograph was take on 12th November 2013.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


07/07/14 – 15:54

Thanks for posting this elderly bus in it’s current position. We are fortunate that Portsmouth Corporation had what we would now call an enlightened view of bus preservation. Both this bus, from it’s first ever batch of buses, and a tram (No 84) were retained by the Corporation from the 1930’s onwards. They also saved the very first trolleybus (201) in 1958, which then went to Beaulieu in 1960. It has had a more chequered history since, but has also resided at Basingstoke for a few years. It is now safe with the CPPTD (the preservation group, not the Corporation!) in Hampshire. The Thornycroft in the picture was quite often brought out and driven around on special occasions for some years. At that time it was in the then-current red/white livery. I remember seeing it at the Brighton Coach Rally c.1962, with a bikini-clad young lady hanging on at the back, trying to smile, wave, and keep her balance! In 1976 (I think), it was used by representatives of the Portsmouth Council to open the new M275 motorway into Portsmouth. Fortunately there was no park and ride service then, otherwise there might have been some suggestions for use? – no, probably not. Both this Thornycroft and the tram seem to be well cared for now, and located in a sympathetic setting at Basingstoke.

Michael Hampton


07/07/14 – 16:39

Am I not right in thinking that this bus was originally No. 10, but renumbered 1 for most of its preserved life, more recently getting back its correct number? I used to see it a lot (with 201) at the late lamented Dave Chalker’s annual Southsea Spectacular on Southsea Common.
Does anyone have a photo of one of these vehicles with original Wadham body. I had one but can’t find it now – typical! Another survivor is what’s left of the 1931 diesel-engined Crossley Condor (RV720), after being cut down as a service vehicle. After being abandoned on the council tip, it was rescued and is a runner.

Chris Hebbron


08/07/14 – 07:18

When you see vehicles like this, you realise the great strides made in chassis and body design in the 13 years between 1919 and 1932.

Chris Hebbron


08/07/14 – 07:20

Yes, Chris, this bus was originally No. 10 in the fleet, out of the series 1-10 for the batch. I read somewhere in a fleet history that it had also been used as a petrol tanker by the Corporation for a while after withdrawal from passenger service. As the Karrier 6-wheel double-deckers bought in 1927/28 to replace these Thornycroft J’s were very thirsty buses , this probably explains the conversion. Another fleet history does state that the Karriers had to be refuelled during the day to keep them in service. Presumably, after the Karriers were withdrawn in 1935, No 10 was redundant as a tanker, and a Dodson body was re-united with it for preservation. It became No.1 in c.1942 – an odd year for such a decision to be made and carried out (don’t you know there’s a war on?). It remained as No.1 until virtually the end of CPPTD, and it’s correct original No.10 restored, I think in the early 1990’s, but I’m open to correction on that.

Michael Hampton


03/10/14 – 08:39

No 10
Copyright Unknown

I finally found the picture of No. 10 with its original body, on The Hard – I’ve only ever seen one other photo of these with Wadham bodies.

Chris Hebbron


05/10/14 – 07:26

There is another photograph of this bus with the original body in the PSV Fleet History PH14 Portsmouth Citybus Ltd.(and its predecessors) Pathfinder UK Ltd. Published February 1997

Andy Hemming


25/08/20 – 06:15

Chris Hebbron’s monochrome picture of this bus, also to be found on LTHL, is from a Pamlin print of which I have a postcard. This dates the image capture to 5 October 1925, though the shot seems to show decidedly bright and sunny weather for autumn.

Roger Cox


26/08/20 – 05:21

A sunny Autumn? Well, that’s Sunny Southsea for you Roger! Thx for the extra information and date.

Chris Hebbron

Westminster Omnibus – Sunbeam Sikh – JJ 9215

1933 Sunbeam Sikh with 64-seat Christopher Dodson bodywork, owned by Westminster Omnibus Co.
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Westminster Omnibus Co
1933
Sunbeam Sikh
Christopher Dodson (H36/28R)

In 1928, Sunbeam designed two prototype passenger chassis, a three-axle sixty-seven seat double-decker bus and a two-axle single-decker bus or coach. Two model names, ‘Sikh’ and ‘Pathan’, were adopted for them. They both had Sunbeam engines, but, despite their quality and reliability, very few were produced.
Here is a rare example of a Sikh, however, dating to 1933. It had a very handsome 64-seat body by that doomed London bodybuilder, Christopher Dodson, doomed because it concentrated business almost solely on London independents, due to disappear from 1933, when London Transport took them all over. You will notice the bizarre open cab with storm apron and protective cowling, insisted upon by Westminster’s managing director, who felt that enclosed cabs were unhealthy! The Westminster Omnibus Co. was taken over by LPTB in 1934, but the bus was barely operated by LPTB, as SM1, before being withdrawn from Sunbeam Rad Badge 2service.
In 1931, a Sikh chassis was modified as a trolleybus, which was an immediate success, creating a whole new passenger market which the bus chassis never penetrated.
To the right is the cheery radiator badge which Sunbeam used on their vehicles, which would have looked nice on the Sikh’s chrome one.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron


Fascinating stuff!!
Dodson did, though build for operators outside London, albeit in small numbers.
Wolverhampton`s Guys come to mind.
Thanks.

Me again. I really enjoyed this post about Sunbeam. Was the open cab not something to do with London Police regulations at the time, where glass screens were deemed dangerous? Not sure, just asking!

John Whitaker


The LGOC had fought and won the windscreen battle in about 1931. It produced its prototype, it with a windscreen, but with an outside staircase, and ran it about a bit with a windscreen, the first. There was not fuss;maybe the notoriously conservative Metropolitan Police Commissioners didn’t notice! It then produced the first 49 production ones and the MPC DID notice, banning further production with windscreens, but not insisting that those already produced be converted. After about 12-18 months, the MPC, presumably being convinced that they weren’t a safety hazard, relented and windscreens were fitted retrospectively to later ones, which, after the first 150, then sported inside staircases, but were not objected to! Even in the mid-30’s the MPC stopped a production run of Central Area (red) single-deck Q’s with open front entrances in front of the front wheels, after an initial run of them was on the road! There was worry about passengers falling out and going under the wheels. I’m not sure that this was ever a problem, although it was resolved years later with knifejack doors.

Chris Hebbron


You are right, John, that Dodson did work other than for London ‘Independents’ (I actually feel that that were more against ‘The Combine’ the LGOC/Underground Group and therefore supported the ‘little feller’!). You mention work they did for Wolverhampton Corporation Guys, but, by coincidence, only today did I discover that Dodson bodied some thirty-odd AEC Regents delivered to Brighton, Hove & District in 1935. They were part of Thos. Tilling group, which, with its London roots, would have been well aware of Dodson’s existence. I’d love to see a photo of these buses to see the design of bodywork. Must start ferreting!

Chris Hebbron


Apropos the MPC and their regulations I was always under the impression that STL/STDs had no cab door was due these being declared verboten by the MPC. However the Sunbeam clearly has a door to its cab

Chris Hough


London Transport inherited quite a few buses with cab (half) doors and left them in situ, Chris.
I think the lack of doors in their own designs was more a case of being able to store buses in their garages closer to each other without doors. When RT1 came along, they’d got around the problem by having a sliding door inside of the bodywork line. With it, deservedly, came more comfort for drivers. STL’s did have concertina-type blinds to fill the entry gap, but they could only be used to protect the empty cab from the worst elements; you couldn’t drive with one down as it impaired vision. You’d have needed to be observant, and lucky, to ever see one down, though!

Chris Hebbron


Chris. It would be great to see a picture of the Brighton Tilling Regents with Dodson body. Dodson built some of the ST bodies for Tilling to Tilling design, I believe, but not the STL batch as far as I know. Dodson would make an interesting article in its own right if it could be researched. Small numbers of bodies were built for several municipalities as well as Wolverhampton, including Derby, Leeds. Another article would be the Pirates in London, with complete fleet lists. Dodson were by no means the only builders here, as Birch, Strachan and Brown etc. were also involved. Must get down to some homework!

John Whitaker


Yes, John, please do!
Meanwhile, I will do some digging to see if I can trace photos of any of the BH&D Dodson-bodies AEC Regents.

Chris Hebbron


Chris. The complete registration for Westminster Sunbeam Sikh (H36/28R) in photo (taken at Edmonton) is JJ 9215. It was licensed to run on London Routes 76 & 73, entering service FEB 1933 as the largest running London bus at the time. It was the last bus design by Dodson Ltd. before exiting the business in April, 1933. The Dodson family originally made horse buses from the mid 1800’s until motorized buses came about after 1900. I’m related to the family and researching the business so I really enjoy finding posts and photographs like this!

Phil Dodson


I’m sure it’s true what they say – history begins on your birthday.
I’m a child of the fifties and although I stretch it to post-war forties, it really all starts for me in 1952 with two of my favourite batches of buses, the STD PD2s and Regent IIIs, delivered in 1952.
I then began to back track – through the excellent British Buses since 1900 and John Aldridge. Sunbeam attracted my attention because they were MOTORbuses and John Aldridge implies that the quality of build was so high that they were too good and therefore too expensive for the general market. Likewise with Dodson bodies. No PSV historian is ignorant of the name, but few of us will have had first hand experience of their products.
When some of us are in our wheelchairs going misty eyed about AEC, Leyland, Roe, Weymann – or whoever – what will that mean to our grandsons and granddaughters? Food for thought – or is just too depressing?

David Oldfield


How wonderful that a modern Dodson is researching the business!. I do hope the findings become available, as I have recently come across several instances of Dodson bodywork outside London.
Cedes Stoll tracklesses.
Peterborough and District Leylands.
Derby Guy Invincibles?
Some of the ancestor fleets of EYMS in Hull
Wolverhampton Corpn. (plenty there)
Many more mid 1920s on Dennis 4 ton and Leyland G series type vehicles. Leeds Corporation.
There must be many more out there…feel like searching and telling everyone?

John Whitaker


I’d say, Phil, that we are as delighted to find a member of the Dodson family as you are to find the posting. Maybe you could post a potted history of this well-regarded company, with a couple of photos, for us all to enjoy. If the above photo was the last Dodson design, the company went out on a real high – it is very attractive. Did the company come to a complete halt in 1933, or did it have other irons in the fire which kept it going?
[Thx for the full registration – now updated].

Chris Hebbron


Just thought of 2 more Dodson customers.
Hastings Tramways
West Bridgford UDC (1914 Dennis)
There has to be many more.

John Whitaker


On the Dodson theme, Portsmouth Corporation started it’s motorbus fleet with 10 Thornycroft J’s in 1919, which had locally built Wadham bodies. But in 1926/27, these were rebodied by the Corporation, using ex-LGOC B-type bodies, built by Dodson. They also bought a complete B-type, with a Dodson body (this did not last long).
On withdrawal by c.1929/30, one of the Thornycrofts (No.10, BK 2977) with it’s Dodson body was preserved, and is fortunately still with us. It is located at the Milestones Museum in Basingstoke, and looks extremely attractive in a contemporary setting of a street scene with other Thornycroft commercial vehicles of that era.

Michael Hampton


Re the Dodson theme, the preserved Portsmouth Thronycroft J at Basingstoke is registered BK 2986 (not BK 2977). Apologies for error in my memory of the batch, which was 1-10 (BK 2977-BK 2986).

Michael Hampton


Chris. Christopher Dodson retired and closed up the business in 1933 due to LPTB Act which took away his "Independent" bus operator customers. The LGOC had hindered bus competition and his business for years which is why he was so devoted to supporting the needs of independent operators and against "The Combine" group as you mentioned.
Dodson Ltd. also built trolleybus bodies from 1912-1933, mainly for Keighley, Wolverhampton and Derby. Christopher’s brothers also started a bus service on the Isle of Wight in 1921, Dodson & Campbell Ltd, which became Dodson Bros Ltd/Vectis Bus Co. in 1923. Christopher was also a director in that company which merged with Southern Railway in 1929 to become Southern Vectis. All their buses had Dodson built bodies of course up until 1932 when they retired and sold their interest in the company.

John interestingly mentioned that Hastings Tramways was a Dodson customer. Dodson built 8 trolleybuses for Hastings in 1928, one of which,(DY 4965), still survives today. Restored and known as "Happy Harold" it has been fitted with a diesel engine to run as a bus. There is a short 1928 film clip of when the 8 Hastings trolleybuses were put into service that can be watched at this You Tube link.
"Happy Harold" is the trolleybus observed on right side from :18 to :43 seconds into the film clip.

Phil Dodson


Thanks Phil for the Utube film!!! How about that!!!
Please inform us all when you have completed your investigations. I would love to know of all the Dodson bodies, wherever they went. They had a very distinctive air about them, and the Sikh was by no means the only modernity item produced. Wolverhampton,s 1929 batch of Guy BTX had a much more modern body style, as did some other London Pirates. There was a Maudslay 4 wheel double decker with one of them if I remember, dated 1932/3

John Whitaker


29/08/12 – 10:33

Fascinating thread. I wonder if anyone has information regarding the Westminster livery carried on the Sunbeam Sikh? Was it red/cream?

Colin James


29/08/12 – 12:15

Maybe, if Phil Dodson sees this, he could tell us. Looking at this vehicle again, it’s got to be one of my favourite buses ever. What a shame that Dodson packed up and never built any more of them.
Could someone with DVLA access give the subsequent history of the vehicle?

Chris Hebbron


29/08/12 – 14:54

Didn’t it pass to Derby Corporation for a short time, or was that another one?

John Whitaker


30/08/12 – 07:03

The PSVC lists JJ 9215 as withdrawn by London Transport in 1934; to G J Dawson, SW9 (dealer) 5/35; Wigan & District Subsistence Production Society, Wigan, 1/37; G Pudifer, Liverpool, 9/39; J Routledge, Seaforth, Liverpool (dealer) 11/39, and scrapped.
According to Blacker, Lunn, & Westgate (London’s Buses Volume One – The Independent Era 1922-1934) Westminster’s livery was red and cream. The absence of a windscreen was apparently a peculiarity of one of the managing director, Mr Rich, who thought that windscreens were unsafe and that the draughts they created were bad for drivers’ health. JJ 9215 was reported to be a smooth runner but had a tendency to boil quickly.
There was a second Sikh built in 1931 with an older style of Dodson body for the Sphere Omnibus Co, but it did not enter service with them, although it was successfully submitted to the Police for testing. It became UK 7456 and was demonstrated by Sunbeam to Mansfield District, Midland General, and Derby, Birmingham, and Northampton Corporations, and was scrapped in 1940. Presumably this is the vehicle to which John refers.

Michael Wadman


31/08/12 – 07:35

Thanks muchly, Michael, for answering the queries Colin, John and I raised and even more!

Chris Hebbron


31/08/12 – 09:37

So sad, the number of manufacturers (vis Gilford and Dodson) who failed through no fault of their own, but rather because their customer base simple dried up or disappeared. What price a Euro 5 Gilford with Dodson body?

David Oldfield


31/08/12 – 09:38

Yes Michael, many thanks for the info on the 2 Sikhs.
There is something truly magnificent about the "big buses" of this era, and I am reminded of that marvellous machine introduced by Wolverhampton Corporation in (1929?). Again, with a Dodson body, but a 6 wheeled petrol electric Tilling Stevens. I only have a photo in a book; otherwise I would post it !

John Whitaker


31/08/12 – 16:02

The Westminster Omnibus Co. Sunbeam Sikh SM1 was withdrawn by the LPTB on 10 July 1934. This site gives a wealth of detail about the bus models of the Sunbeam company:- www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum  In all its product ranges, bicycles, motorcycles, cars and buses, the Sunbeam company was synonymous with exceptionally high quality in keeping with the principles of the founder, John Marston, and almost all components were produced in house. This was reflected in the retail prices, and, in the depressed markets of the inter war years, sales were limited. The various parts of the Sunbeam group fell into different hands, though the name lived on for some models of motorcycle, motor scooter, car, and, of course, trolleybus. At least the trolley manufacture, ultimately part of Guy, remained in Wolverhampton to the end.

Roger Cox


16/12/13 – 07:23

Re John W/Michael W’s post on 29/8/12, I’ve found other, slightly conflicting info on the Derby Corporation Sikh. No. 44 was an ex-Sunbeam demonstrator, registration UK 7456 (chassis K10123) which dated from 1929. Its Dodson body seating was a smaller H35/32R, presumably to an earlier style, since the Westminster one was larger and the 1933 style. It went into service with Derby in 1933 and was also withdrawn in 1939.

Chris Hebbron


16/12/13 – 09:25

Thanks Chris for the TSM and Sunbeam detail which I have noted. You are correct in saying the Derby Sunbeam was of the earlier Dodson body style. I have seen a photo but cannot remember where it was. In "Looking at Buses" by G. Hilditch (I Think!)
Loads of Senior Moments!
I am now following Thornycroft. Have you seen the magnificent 6 wheeler photo on the Thornycroft site, with a camel roof body, which is a bit "Hall Lewis" looking. Also, trying to unearth photos of the 4 wheel BC Boadicea model as supplied to Southampton etc. This explosion of competition from 1929 to 1932 provides enough material for someone to write a book.
It would need someone a lot more technical than me though, a mere ageing enthusiast!

John Whitaker


17/12/13 – 06:51

The engine of the Sikh was an advanced and powerful overhead valve unit of 7.98 litres, developing 142 bhp at 2,400 rpm., which drove via a friction clutch into a four speed gearbox. The same engine was fitted to the more successful Pathan single deck model. Such a powerful engine must have given the Sikh and the Pathan remarkable road performances by any standard, certainly well above the norm for the early 1930s, though probably at a cost in fuel consumption. The Westminster Sikh weighed 7 tons 5cwt 3qtr, which seems remarkably light, and entered service in London in the week commencing 20th February 1933; the absence of a windscreen was entirely due to the rigid opinions of the Westminster company’s managing director, as the Met Police had capitulated on cab windscreens by this time. Only three Sikhs were made, the Westminster one being the second in production. In view of the imminent introduction of the London Passenger Transport Act on 1st July 1933, it is surprising that Westminster should have purchased such an expensive piece of capital equipment at so late a date. Almost inevitably, the solitary Sikh SM 1 did not survive long in the standardised world of the LPTB, being withdrawn in 1934 and disposed of on 16 May 1935. Its subsequent fate is unclear. As Michael Wadman and Chris Hebbron state above, the very first Sikh was cleared by the Met Police for use by the Sphere Omnibus Company on routes 73 and 76, but it never entered service, becoming instead a Sunbeam demonstrator and vanishing in the early years of WW2. The third Sikh was converted to a trolleybus, and opened up a much more successful market, though the original Sunbeam Company was not to see much of the benefit. In 1934, STD (for Sunbeam Talbot Darracq as then was) went into receivership, and the Rootes group picked up most of the assets.

Roger Cox


18/12/13 – 06:21

John, the best source of information on Thornycroft is the volume published in 2001 in the Ian Allen Transport Library (ISBN 0 7110 28141) written by the ever dependable Alan Townsin, who once worked for the firm himself. Details and photos of the bus models are there aplenty. Unfortunately, the book has no photos of a Southampton BC Forward, but there is a picture of Southampton’s rare HC six wheeler and another of a Daring. A picture of a United BC Forward may be found on this site under ‘Best Bits – A United Line Up’.

Roger Cox


18/12/13 – 14:14

Thanks Roger. Will look up the Thornycroft book, especially with the HC 6 wheeler being there! I remember them having English Electric bodies very similar to the Pompey Karriers.
Fascinating era to study!

John Whitaker


 J 9215_lrVehicle reminder shot for this posting


06/12/14 – 06:49

Sunbeam Sikhs are rare: photos even rarer! The link below shows a 1931 Midland District Sikh of 1931. What a dramatic difference is demonstrated by a mere two-year gap! //midlandgeneralomnibus.weebly.com/mansfield-district-buses.html

Chris Hebbron