Category: Photos

Samuel Ledgard – Bristol K6A – GHN 840


Photograph from The late Robert F Mack collection.

Samuel Ledgard
1945
Bristol K6A
ECW L27/26R

As featured in “An Arresting Experience” by Chris Youhill on the “articles” page here we have the vehicle in question. This vehicle was ex-United Automobile Services fleet number BAL 8 new to them in 1945 acquired by Samuel Ledgard in 1959 and served a further six years before being withdrawn from service in 1965.  
The Bristol K series was first produced in 1937 and had the high bonnet line as in the shot above until 1946, when the more familiar lower bonnet line was introduced as in the shot to the right.
The above vehicle was one of 251 built after the recommencement of production in 1944 and were the wartime W1 and W2 series all of which had the AEC 7·7 litre six cylinder diesel engine hence the K6A code. As from 1946 the K series was also available with the Gardner 5LW and Bristols first diesel engine the AVW which was a 8·1 litre six cylinder unit. I am not sure what AVW and its successor the BVW stood for, I could guess that the V stood for vertical, if you know please leave a comment. The K series carried on in production until 1950 with over 3000 being built until the one foot longer KS version was introduced.

Photograph contributed by Chris Youhill

Am I right in believing that the difference in bonnet height is the post war “invention” of dropped front axles- and who thought of it first?

Joe

Sorry Joe but, as far as I can glean from publications on the Bristol “K” series, there is no difference at all in the front axles of the low and high radiator “K”s. Dropped front axles were virtually standard on all buses long before WW2. As you say, the apparent dramatic lowering of the radiators and bonnets would suggest some major structural redesign but seemingly not so – the improved appearance must have been achieved by cleverly reducing the clearance above the engine and by a pleasing new radiator design and mountings.

Chris Youhill

As an AEC man, it always struck me that the perfect bonnet line, as aspired to and achieved by London Transport in the RT, was only achieved in the provinces on the post-war Bristols and Guy Arabs.

David Oldfield

And Crossleys, surely?

Peter Williamson

As I signed off the last comment, a Manchester Crossley popped up on a picture and I thought……..and Crossleys!

David Oldfield

There cannot have been any structural difference in the “high” and “low” radiator K chassis, since after the war, many pre-war and wartime utility Bristols were rebodied,and the exercise frequently involved fitting the low radiator to modernize their appearance. Preserved West Yorkshire KDG 26 is a case in point.

David Jones

The ‘low’ radiator is a bit of a trick. The bottom of the working bit of the low radiator is no lower than the high version. If you examine one you will find that the bottom 4 or 5 inches of the low radiator is just decorative. I think I’m right in saying the higher top of the ‘high’ radiator is simply a result of the fact that petrol engines were a lot taller than diesels. When diesels replaced petrol from mid-1930’s there was a lot of fresh air under the bonnet. Hence the line of the bonnet was lowered and with it the top of the radiator.

Bristol’s parts code. The last letter refers to what it is – thus ‘W’ is an engine. The first engine would have been an ‘AW’. In the early 1930’s the ‘JW’ and ‘NW’ were respectively 6-cyl and 4-cyl petrol engines. Once they got to ‘ZW’ then they started again with ‘AAW’ an awful lot of the codes must have been either minor variants or omitted or design studies which were never built. I have no idea how they got as far as ‘AVW’ but that is how the code was arrived at.

Peter Cook

Bristol AVW. the “V” stands for Vertical, and the “W” stands for Water-cooled. The “A” & “B” were the series. AVW’s had dry liners, by far more reliable, and the BVW’s had wet liners, and known for self-destructing, more so when cooled by the diabolical Cave-Brown-Cave system

EE59051

Thanks to the enigmatic EE59051 for his comments. I have a enormous soft spot for Bristol engined Bristols, but it is interesting to note that they seemed to have similar problems to AEC a propos wet liner and dry liner engines.

David Oldfield

Thanks to EE59051 for that very justified comment on the dreadful Cave-Brown-Cave system. In the first place its ugly radiator apertures completely disfigured the vehicles to which it was fitted. More importantly it was absolutely dangerous to drivers in the event of any leakage, especially at full speed, and even at the tiny WYRCC depot at Ilkley there were instances of scalding in the one year that I worked there.

Chris Youhill

I’ve often wondered why companies persevered with the Cave-Brown-Cave system as long as they did, as it never quite seemed to work as the inventor intended. My grandma (a very forgiving soul) would often complain on her family visits, about the freezing cold journeys she had endured from Bingley to Harrogate. The culprits were usually observed to be CBC ‘heated’ Lodekkas. My brother and I would empathise as we often suffered the same discomfort when we visited her, travelling on the same type of bus.
Airlocks seemed to be the main culprit, and could give rise to the strange phenomenon of passengers complaining of how cold their bus was, whilst at the same time said bus was observed boiling away merrily at the front end!
As a West Yorkshire Central Works apprentice, I spent three months working at Grove Park depot, and if a Lodekka was taken out of service as a result of boiling, it was just parked up in the depot and allowed to cool down. It was then topped up with water, whilst someone else worked the engine to try and circulate it around the system. All being well, it would then be deemed ready for action again. The Lodekka water filler cap was still in its original position just above where the traditional radiator would have been. However, as the CBC radiators were set several feet higher on the top deck, many of us thought this to be the cause of the water circulation problems.
Although the BVW engine had its faults – and with hindsight maybe Bristol might have been better staying with dry liners – later versions were generally viewed by West Yorkshire as being decent workhorses. The bottom-end seemed pretty bullet-proof, with many of our examples covering 300,000 miles or more between overhauls, without any crankshaft or bearing problems.

Brendan Smith

Cave-Brown-Cave heating is within my experience, just, but what type of heating was evidenced by a round chrome’y-grill’y protrusion from the front downstairs bulkhead of some buses and coaches and did the system do upstairs, too?

Chris Hebbron

Ah- Memory Lane again: those funny round “heaters” (Clayton Dewandre?- do I imagine that?) on Yorkshire Traction Leylands. Did they ever give off any heat…? Was there a box too under a seat upstairs? They were presumably like the car heaters of the day- a pipe off the cooling system?

Joe

You’re right about the make, Joe. I don’t think that their output was very inspiring, from my limited experience.

Chris Hebbron

The large round heaters with mesh fronts and a chrome “hood” were indeed made by Clayton Dewandre Limited of Titanic Works, Lincoln. They had an electric expulsion fan to blow out the warm air, and warm it certainly was providing that the water circulation was in order, and that the engine was running at a reasonably high temperature. The “boxes under the seats” were usually the excellent and efficient “KL” models, which also had a powerful electric fan. Wiring in both types was usually arranged so that the fans either stopped or slowed while the engines were ticking over at stops. When Samuel Ledgard acquired second hand buses in the later years of the Company it was the practice to install “KL” boxes in both saloons – normally two downstairs and one at the front of the top deck. All of these “retro fitted” heaters were highly efficient and were much appreciated by passengers and conductors alike. In particular I remember the ex Exeter Daimler CVD6/Brush models, where I’ve known passengers plead for them to be turned off in mid Winter – JFJ 55 being the hottest – courtesy of the hot running Daimler engines.

Chris Youhill

Clayton Dewandre indeed, but only for those who sat inside. Sheffield’s first upstairs heating was the horrendously noisy system on 1325 – 1349 (Regent V/Roe).

David Oldfield

I like your ‘inside’ and ‘upstairs’, David. Reminds me when I was young, after the war, there were still a lot of older conductors who shouted at boarding passengers, ‘Plenty of room outside’ even though open-top buses were long gone!

Chris Hebbron

Its an absolute delight reading all these posts about Sammy Ledgard. My memories go back to before Sammy died, and the “exors” were formed. In many ways, this was a more interesting period as the fleet had more “corporate” character, with its “standard” Leylands going way back. This is all in the days before grey came into the livery. Many had Green roofs.
It was certainly an enthusiasts paradise after 1953 with the amazing variety of second hand purchases, but I think my most precious Sammy memory is the Butlers scrapyard just below the “Fox and Hounds” near Menston. In 1953/4, and for some time after, this was full of withdrawn Ledgard buses, some going back to the 1920s. They had been stored at Armley for years, Sammy never disposing of “owt” which might come in useful!

John Whitaker

29/03/11 – 07:35

I am pretty sure that the first Sheffield buses delivered with underseat heaters in the top deck were the ECW bodied PD2s of 1957 (1152/3 and 1292-1294). I recall travelling on the 12 to Chesterfield on one when virtually new and being most disappointed that the noise from the heater drowned out the note of the O.600 engine.

Ian Wild

29/03/11 – 13:22

Significant that they were JOC buses. I never remember them on the 12, nor do I remember 1152/3 without doors. Having never travelled on any of these buses, I bow to your superior knowledge.

David Oldfield

29/03/11 – 13:30

I was most interested in John Whitaker’s nostalgia about the Butler scrapyard at Eller Ghyll, Menston where a large number of Ledgard vehicles were dismantled after years of storage. It was a place where mixed feelings were always aroused – revelling in the range of vehicles which languished there, and yet incredibly sad at the same time.

3-in_scrap

Here is one of my early snapshots (if only digital had been around !!). The larger vehicle is one of the ex B & B Leyland Lion LT1/Burlingham pair, KW 7944/5. No prizes for identifying the other two buses – they are 40% of the fleet of five heroic little Bedford OWBs which served so valiantly at the Yeadon (Moorfield) depot. It is impossible for those unfamiliar with the territory to imagine how much heavy work those little champions handled on two of the most intense and heavily patronised routes – and of necessity overloading was common which made their performance even more remarkable and creditable. I’ve driven OB coaches myself and never failed to marvel at how these tough little classics performed – unashamedly noisily while “getting up to speed” in the first three gears and then with dignified very quiet tones in “top.” I still can’t believe how 28hp petrol engines (many private cars today have greater capacity and technology) could produce such splendid results under heavy pressure. What a crying shame that more souvenirs were not saved from these vehicles as I’m quite sure that Butler’s would have been amenable to the cause. The final sad insult to the little Bedfords was to have to languish there in full view of their successors, as their former lifetime route was less than a hundred yards away on the road above !!

Chris Youhill

30/03/11 – 06:07

1294 and 1295 (the first of the three contemporary Roe bodied PD2/20) were allocated to Leadmill Road Depot hence 1294 turning up frequently on the 12 to Chesterfield. I don’t remember the Roe trio (1295-1297) being delivered with saloon heaters. There was a restricted height bridge at Dronfield on service 12 and not all buses could be used on the Chesterfield service. I suspect the ECW bodies were of slightly lower overall height than the Roe bodies on the similar chassis as I never remember seeing 1295 on the 12 although the standard vehicles for the route at that time were Roe bodied Regent III 1251-1282. Different chassis make, slightly lower build?

Ian Wild

30/03/14 – 12:54

Imagine an engine block in profile and standing next to it a tall radiator. Hot water rising from the engine passes thru a large hose to the top of the radiator. Movement air passing thru the radiator cools the water which slowly sinks returning via the bottom hose to the engine block whence it rises again. This is the simple thermo-syphon system with the of necessity tall radiator which was fitted to most pre-war vehicles. It had many disadvantages. Big improvements were made. At atmospheric pressure water boils off so the cooling system was pressurised to raise the boiling temperature. A cooling fan was fitted to draw air through the radiator even whilst the vehicle was stationary. A thermostat controlled the temperature of the cylinder head. Most importantly, an impeller pump was fitted to increase the cooling water circulation speed thus vastly increasing cooling efficiency. Efficient radiators could be made much smaller and lower. This was a boon to the bodywork designers wishing to offer attractive lower profiles. This is the reason why lower outlines became possible. It has nothing to do with the engine which can be tilted or even, as in the Commer TS3 design, laid flat.

Peter Woods

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

05/02/16 – 06:33

Back to radiator height, I believe on the high radiator access for the crank handle was below the radiators bottom tank, whereas on the low radiator everything was lower because it was possible for the shaft of the crank handle to pass between the radiators tubes. This was not a new arrangement as Tilling Stevens B10s of the late 20s had this style of radiator. Bonnet height was often determined by whether air filters were fitted above the engine.

Bob Cooper

Rotherham Corporation – Bristol K6B – EET 580 – 180


Copyright Ian Wild

Rotherham Corporation
1949
Bristol K6B
East Lancs H30/26R

Rotherham was an enthusiastic Bristol operator until they became no longer available to non Tilling Companies. 180 is one of a batch of four Bristol L6B originally with Bruce B32C bodies delivered in 1949 and all rebodied in 1951 (only two years later) by East Lancs as H30/26R double deckers.

The photo was taken in August 1967 at the Chapeltown terminus of service 16. My information doesn’t include any withdrawal dates but the bus was a creditable 18 years old at the time.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

180 lasted in service until 1967, one year later than the other three.

Chris Hebbron

Ah! Blue and cream – almost as good as cream and blue (Sheffield).
Living in the far South West of Sheffield, I lived just about as far from Rotherham as I could be and the 69 went to Exchange Street, not Pond Street Bus Station. I am a fan of Bristol engined Bristols but wasn’t aware of Rotherham’s Bristols until long after they had gone. It was the AECs and Daimlers that I remember – and of course the AECs were actually in the minority.
Ironically, Rotherham was to become significant to me – as a musician – in later years, and still is today.

David Oldfield

What a coincidence, David. I too lived on the south west side of Sheffield. I was at a training centre in Rawmarsh for 6 months during the winter of 1962/3 and travelled daily by bus. The 69 of course was a joint Sheffield/Rotherham service, Rotherham’s contribution almost exclusively being a Crossley. Rotherham had one single lady driver which was unusual in those days but she was a complete master (mistress?) of the Crossleys. Sheffield used their three ‘stock’ all Leyland PD2s (601-603), with their none standard destination displays on the 69. I seem to remember them having a brown seating material rather than Sheffield standard.
From Rotherham I travelled to Rawmarsh by Mexborough and Swinton. Their lowbridge Atlanteans were quite unusual to my eyes although later I worked for a fleet with 105 of them! Best thing about M&S was the almost exclusive use of conductresses, many of them rather attractive!!
Does anyone have any photos of the M&S Atlanteans?

Ian Wild

The interesting question is, why were these vehicles re-bodied after only two years? It’s inconceivable that the Bruce bodies would have been unserviceable after such a short time, I believe Bruce had a good reputation and weren’t they associated with East Lancs? Was it the case that Rotherham suddenly had a desperate need for double deckers? and were the original bodies re-used on other chassis?
Did the fact that they were single deck chassis have any effect on the rear platform of the re-bodied vehicles, such as the Wallace Arnold re-bodied Daimlers for Kippax and Farsley with their two-step platforms?

Chris Barker

And it wasn’t a cheap conversion, either. They were delivered as Bristol L6B’s, which were single decker chassis. The Bruce bodies were classified B32C’s which suggests that they were originally coaches rather than single-deck buses. The chassis were then rebuilt to K6B standard and fitted with the East Lancs double decker bodies. It’s likely that even the gearbox/axle ratios needed changing. But, as Chris B says, what were the ‘coaches’ originally planned for?

Chris Hebbron

Two-step platforms: there was a fashion for these in the early 50’s: Doncaster had some new Roes in the 120’s with two step platforms and cranked seats- was it a way of dealing with 7ft 6in widths for narrow streets (or narrow washers depending which version you prefer)?

Joe

I wonder if it was something to do with Rotherham getting wind of the impending loss of access to new Bristols. They may have taken whatever they could get hold of before the stable door was finally locked and bolted, on the basis that a 6B is a 6B, whatever happens to be sitting on top of it. It is quite probable that there would be a second-hand market for four good-quality coach bodies no more than two years old. From an accounting point of view it is quite likely that the subsequent rebodying would be done through the maintenance budget. So there would be few questions asked (however much it cost), compared with the approval process for purchasing new capital stock.

Stephen Ford

PSV Circle fleet supplement P71R dated October 1963 provides further information. Eight 1949 Bristol L6Bs were rebodied with double deck bodies in 1951, fleet numbers 112-114 and 179-184. The displaced single deck bodies were fitted to prewar L5Gs fleet numbers 137/140/142/143 of 1938 and 159-162 of 1939. Of these, at least 137 etc originally had Cravens bodies. All were withdrawn in 1957/1958. Please note these B32C bodies were bus bodies (not coach)- the C refers to central entrance which seems to have been a Rotherham speciality as the Cravens bodies were of the same configuration.

Ian Wild

Following on from Ians comment, centre entrances were very common in this area. Rotherham also ran many centre entrance single decker Daimler trolleybuses, a number of which were rebodied at a very young age with Roe double deck bodies. Rotherham were the joint operator with Mexborough and Swinton on services between Rotherham and Conisborough via Mexborough. Most of the ‘tracklesses’ operated by the Mexborough system were centre entrance with only a few very early examples and some wartime second hand vehicles bucking the trend. One of the latest centre door vehicles that I can think of in that area was a Doncaster CT Regal IV that from new was equipped with a centre door body albeit rebuilt to dual entrance later in life.

Dates relevant to the bus shown in the photo above are:-
Date into service – March 1949 (original body was by Bruce on East Lancs frames)
Chassis modified from L6B to K6B and rebodied by East Lancs in April 1951
Withdrawn October 1967 it passed to Autospares of Bingley for scrap in December 1967.
The original single deck body was used to rebody the refurbished chassis of a 1940 L5G of the CET 44x batch numbers 159 – 162

Andrew Charles

27/02/11 – 12:00

Some interesting comments here, but does putting a double-deck body on a Bristol L make it a K? I grew up in Bristol and remember all the rebodying that went on but Bristol Omnibus never did a single to double deck conversion. The L chassis was 27′ 6″ long, the K 26′ but, by the time of Rotherham’s rebodying, double deckers were allowed to be 27′ long. So how long was 180? Rotherham went on to buy the KS chassis, the only non-Tilling operator to do so; comparing photo-graphs of the two, 180 is almost certainly 26′ long, so the chassis had to be shortened to fit the new double deck body.

Geoff Kerr

Top of this posting

West Yorkshire – Bristol K5G – OWT 201 – YDG 88


Copyright Bob Gell

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1954
Bristol K5G 
ECW H28/28R

A fine vehicle indeed, but quite sad in some ways. This typical ex-Tilling Group Bristol K5G is spending its final days on loan to Yorkshire Woollen District, after its parent company (York-West Yorkshire) had lost its Tilling identity to the National Bus Company.

Eleven Bristol K5Gs were added to the York – West Yorkshire fleet in 1939, being numbered Y395-9/Y701-6, and registered DWU 133-7/994-9, (706 is seen to the right here).
They gave sterling service, and will always be remembered by West Yorkshire fans as a contrast to the dominance of the post war style in the fleet, as they lasted in original form until 1954/5.
In 1954/5, they were taken out of service, and were to re-emerge with handsome new 4 bay ECW bodies as seen here. New chassis frames were used, but the running units were fully overhauled and re-fitted. Because new chassis frames were fitted, the rebuilt vehicles were re-registered OWT 195-205.
To cover their temporary absence, 3 most interesting vehicles were purchased from Brighton, Hove and District, and these would merit a post in themselves! They were 1931/2 AEC “Regents” which had “Gardner 5s”, and 1944 ECW highbridge bodies to the post war profile, being quite similar to the prototype body built the same year on a K5G for the Tilling Group. A ride on one of these vehicles was like being at a symphony concert! – melodies and harmonies from the gearbox and engine were beyond description, but a delight nevertheless. One could perhaps walk quicker than the top speed of these veterans, which were numbered ADG 1-3 in the new 1954 system!
To return to our rebuilt K5Gs, they re-entered service with YDG numbers in the new system mentioned above, and settled down to give another fine spell of service, before succumbing to the inevitable FS type Lodekka, and others.
The new numbers were YDG 82-92 and YDG 88 is seen in our main photograph above, which was taken by Bob at Dewsbury bus station in July 1969.
York-West Yorkshire was a truly wonderful fleet, and how lucky we West Yorkshire enthusiasts were to have these two “side fleets” of Keighley , and York, which both had their own character and contrast to the main fleet. Keighley, and the main fleet always used lowbridge double deckers, whereas York used the highbridge layout, and the flat terrain was ideal for the K5G. I can still hear them chugging sedately round that beautiful old city!
As always, when nostalgia kicks in, it is really difficult to grasp the passage of time, it now being well over 40 years since the demise of these buses. York never seems (quite) the same place these days, without the super old red and cream buses which were part of the character of the place!

Photograph Bob Gell, insert shot S J N White with copy by John Whitaker

Full lists of Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.

13/03/11 – 10:38

Thank you, thank you, John, for your wonderful write-up that so faithfully reflects the spirit of the York-West Yorkshire fleet of my childhood and youth. I was brought up with the 1939 K5Gs; the photo of 706, with its original ‘bible’, (or ‘flap-board’), indicator is shown on route 6, regularly operated with these vehicles, as was service 2 between Stuart Road and Bur Dyke Avenue. I remember so well as a small boy waiting at our local bus stop with my mother, telling her the service number of the next bus to arrive – you could hear it before you saw it – by the sound of the engine. Sometimes you could even tell individual vehicles from their distinctive engine notes. The rebodying exercise resulted in these buses having a remarkable total life of almost 30 years with Y-WY. It did produce the cynical response amongst some York residents, however, that re-registering them was a bit of a con trick by the Joint Undertaking to disguise the vehicles’ true age.
In service the rebuilt vehicles tended, to be truthful, to lack performance, (were the new bodies heavier?), even on York’s relatively flat terrain. Y-WY had a policy of allocating Bristol and Gardner engined buses to different routes, but some routes might have either. I worked for Y-WY as a conductor in 1962 and 1963, and getting a YDG rather than a YDB or YDX was a sign that you could well end up running late at peak times.
You also mention the famous ADGs. I never came across them because my father worked abroad during their entire time with Y-WY, but I remember a driver on the Fulford Rota – they were mainly used on the 4/4A route – demonstrating to me in graphic and most amusing detail that they were the most unpleasant and unrewarding vehicles he ever drove. He said the pedals were very high while the gear lever was positioned low down and behind the driver, so that all gear changes required an act of contortion. He reckoned – as you say, ADGs were not noticeably quick – that a change from third to second was a lottery to be avoided at all costs, and claimed, (of course drivers were not always accurate in their interpretations of management decisions), that the reason the ADGs were usually allocated to the Fulford Rota was to reduce that eventuality by avoiding Holgate Hill.
Incidentally, they were never actually owned by Y-WY, despite having the name on the side, but were hired from WY.
Finally, the colour picture of YDG88 shows it with its later, T-shaped destination indicator. Originally, it had the full three-section indicator, which had five different blinds to set. When you were running late on Service 3/11, changing from 11A back to 3 at the terminus was a drag, especially if it was your last trip before being relieved and you had an impatient driver.
Thank you again, John. Happy days, indeed!

Roy Burke

13/03/11 – 10:46

I was very interested to see the photograph of West Yorkshire OWT 281. These were along with others initially hired from West Yorkshire and then taken in to the Yorkshire Woollen fleet during a vehicle shortage. I remember conducting these buses.

Philip Carlton

14/03/11 – 07:17

John W has said some wonderful things about York West Yorkshire and brought back many fond memories of my visits to York in the early fifties. West Yorkshire Road Car was in my view a quality ex Tilling Company and always produced some excellent rebuilt pre-war Bristol K5G buses from their Harrogate Works. The final York K5Gs were their last re-bodies to appear and were based again on a solid Bristol engineering and a Gardner 5LW.

Richard Fieldhouse

14/03/11 – 07:22

Roy’s last paragraph reminds me of the ultimate “pantomime” concerning the changing of multiple destination displays. When I was a West Yorkshire conductor at Ilkley we had a route to Heber’s Ghyll – five minutes each way and no recovery (standing) time. Single deckers were always used and had three piece displays front and rear, and always went straight onto other routes with differing information.

Chris Youhill

14/03/11 – 13:17

I am really pleased Roy, that you enjoyed the post about what are obviously favourite buses to us both! Thanks also for the ADG anecdotes.
I believe the OWT rebodies would be less lively than the originals, as they would, as you suggest, be heavier.
There really was something special and “ponderous” about YWY which was absolutely fascinating. We lived in Bradford, but passed through regularly on the way to Bridlington, and our weekend/holiday tram bungalow at Skipsea. Lucky you, living there. You must have plenty of WY experience to share with us!

John Whitaker

16/03/11 – 11:14

As you say, John, I had lots of pleasant and amusing experiences with York-West Yorkshire, which I’d happily share, except that much the same could be said of anyone who’s worked as a conductor with any operator. Two examples: Chris has shared his recollection of changing a blind in a hurry. Great fun, but I bet there are many readers of this site who have had the unnerving experience of changing a front blind as the driver reversed into a side road. I’ve done that many times, but I used to draw the line at the driver pulling forward again while I was still clinging on although jumping off as the driver did so was a real recipe for trouble!
Also, while I agree with you wholeheartedly about missing the red and cream buses, the atmosphere of York City itself has changed a great deal in the last half century; not for the better in my view, but that’s life. I recall, incidentally, a passenger who must then have been about the same age we are now telling me he remembered when the colour of the City’s buses was blue, so…..

Roy Burke

16/03/11 – 14:18

Hi Roy. I cannot remember the blue buses in York, but I do know what you mean!.
I was in York two Saturdays ago for a railway Museum visit, and I must admit it was a little too “Touristy” for my taste these days. Things change. Maybe we could share our photo collections a bit, as we probably both have gaps. Just a thought, and good to share happy memories with another enthusiast.

John Whitaker

23/03/11 – 17:55

As a boy the first time I really took any notice of buses was on a holiday to Bournemouth (late 60’s), looking out for KSW’s without a dented front or rear dome (there weren’t many) I thought the Green and Cream livery on the Hants and Dorset buses very smart until I noticed a Red and Cream Lodekka FLF belonging to Wilts and Dorset, I liked the squarer profile of the K to the more rounded Lodekka. My dad couldn’t understand why we had to go past the bus station each day, a great holiday and buses.

Roger Broughton

24/03/11 – 06:39

Hi, has anyone out there a West Yorkshire fleet list that I could have a copy of, as my own list is a very sketchy one?

Keith Easton

24/03/11 – 18:25

Hi Keith
Re. WYRC fleet list. I have the one in the old TPC book by Keith Jenkinson, but it is a bit sketchy, with no withdrawal dates. I could transcribe this over time, into acceptable format and put it forward for inclusion in the new fleet list section. There is, however, both a PSV Circle list, and a West Yorkshire Information Service (now defunct) list which gives a lot more detail, so before embarking on any such project, does any of our “fraternity” have one of these publications. I am afraid mine disappeared years ago, although I have taken extracts from PSVC one at the Omnibus Soc. archives.
If I go ahead with this, it will need someone else to take over after about 1956, when my interest begins to wane!

John Whitaker

25/03/11 – 08:16

Hi John, Thanks for the offer, but the TPC book is where my somewhat sketchy list came from! I have most details from the 1980’s, and the earlier ones would be most welcome, but perhaps wait until we see what, if anything, materialises. Once again thanks for your offer.

Keith Easton

09/05/11 – 08:11

After reading all the interesting comments above about the York fleet, I seemed to recall that at some point YWY had considered purchasing some second hand KSWs for the fleet. On looking through John F Gill’s fascinating and very informative book ‘York-West Yorkshire Joint Services – 50 Years of Joint Services 1934-1984’ again, this was confirmed. What surprised me though was the lateness of the year – 1967. At this time YWY was ordering new VR and RE buses for its 1968/9 deliveries, to replace the rebuilt K5Gs (including YDG 88 illustrated above) and two of the 1951 KS-types, which according to the book would have left eight YDBs in service, and that the JOC were considering purchasing eight 1954 KSWs from Bristol Omnibus to replace them! However, it was later decided not to pursue the matter, as the cost of bringing the vehicles up to standard would have been uneconomic. (The book states that the only Bristol Omnibus double deckers that fitted the date quoted would have been highbridge KSWs from the PHW/SHW-registered batches). Given the notorious reliability problems with the early VRTs though, maybe the JOC were on the right track after all!

Brendan Smith

10/05/11 – 07:26

I used to travel on United Counties between Derngate and Earls Barton. The routes on A45 were mostly 402 and 404. K6A were normal, but 3 buses had 6 cyl engines 615 662 were 2 of them. in the morning it was 2 L5G single deckers every day. These had an overdrive gear engaged from 4th. it was only usable from about 40mph. occasionally the speed reached nearly 60 on the down hills, but how I wish they had the familiar [to me] Daimler gearboxes. the town buses were so different but i think all had Gardner 5s. I was at Barton turn one day and 4 corporation buses roared past where the K5s struggled.

P Bartlett

10/05/11 – 07:30

Brendan’s point about York-West Yorks looking at Bristol OC K types is interesting given that some of their own would have gone to Yorkshire Woollen in 1969 to a vehicle shortage there!

Chris Hough

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

22/01/12 – 11:38

Having been away from from my computer for a while, I’ve only just seen this excellent posting, which for me – by co-incidence it’s now within a day or two of being exactly 50 years since I began working for York-West Yorkshire – has particular nostalgia. I remember these vehicles very well indeed, and must have worked on YDG88 many, many times.
The re-bodied 1939 K5Gs were probably the most unpopular vehicles in the Y-WY fleet – certainly amongst the crews, and in so far as they took any notice of the bus they were travelling on, with passengers too. As Richard F points out, they were noisy and and rough, both the ride and the engine note. The photo was, I believe, taken in Rougier Street, where the sound of anything pulling away with a full load and a 5LW engine reverberated loudly. Since there would often be an East Yorkshire Leyland passing through at the same time, the comparison was not flattering to Y-WY!
They were also slow, even in comparison with the re-bodied 1938 K5Gs, which I’ve always assumed, (others, better informed, might disabuse me of that notion), was due to their body weight. Some drivers would, for example, use first gear when pulling away from the traffic lights at the junction of Queen Street and Blossom Street with a full load, the only vehicles on which this ever happened. On the question of re-registering, Keith Jenkinson, in his highly informative book, ‘York City Buses’, says that the decision was taken at a meeting of the Joint Committee on 20 July 1954: ‘…as they would appear as “new” buses, it was agreed that they should be re-registered in order to reflect that.’ A popular explanation amongst the crews – I don’t vouch for its truthfulness – was that a City Councillor on the Joint Committee was facing re-election and was keen to get York some ‘new’ buses since there hadn’t been any since February 1952. Giving the vehicles new fleet numbers was just being consistent with new registration numbers.
One point has always baffled me and I’d be grateful for an explanation from someone. Some of these vehicles ended up with Yorkshire Woollen District to cover for that company’s vehicle shortage in, I think, 1969. My query is about the reasons for YWD’s shortage. All BET companies had a vehicle replacement programme, so what caused the shortage?

Roy Burke

West Yorkshire – Bristol K6B – HWW 863 – 774


Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1950
Bristol K6B
ECW L27/28R

West Yorkshire 774 (DB 36) Bristol K6B is seen new at Chester Street Bus Station, Bradford on the Ilkley stand in 1950 on the 63 service via Manningham Lane to Shipley, an intermediate place before Ilkley. The service at this time ran every 30 minutes with the alternate bus in the hour running as a 68 service via Canal Road to Shipley and then to Ilkley. Only recently had the 63/68 service been operated by double deckers due to a revision of the route in Ilkley which now avoided a low railway bridge in Ben Rhydding. The Bradford to Ilkley service was previously operated by single decker pre-war Bristol L5Gs and Bristol JO5Gs.
This was a route I used often and loved the challenge to the buses climbing Hollins Hill and also the (A65) road dip under the railway bridge near Burley-in-Wharfedale. This bridge was removed after the line from Burley to Otley closed in March 1965. The road level was then changed so no more excitement at testing the bus suspension.
The Bristol K6B/ECW buses were the workhorses for many BTC fleets during the fifties and sixties and this was certainly the case with West Yorkshire. I can never recall a breakdown and the Bristol K6B was certainly a most reliable type of bus. A lovely feature which I often heard on a still evening at home was the throb across the fields of the Bristol AVW engine caused I think by the fuel governor. Perhaps someone with more expert knowledge of Bristol bus mechanics can explain.
Another interesting feature at Chester Street Bus Station seen on the photograph was the green hut adjacent to the Ilkley stand which served as the Inspectors Office. This hut had also the store racks for the “bible” indicators used on most of the pre-war West Yorkshire buses. This hut was always a fascinating place for a small boy to watch the busy activity of the drivers/conductors collecting or returning these cumbersome indicator boards.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

25/05/11 – 16:52

Dare I be precocious enough Richard to say that this excellent piece was written specially for me ?? – a tongue in cheek remark obviously. This is a route known very well to me as a passenger and, later, as a conductor when I worked at WYRCC’s Ilkley Depot in 1960/1. As you rightly say, the Inspectors’ green hut in Chester Street was a constant hive of activity.
Did you know that Chester Street was actually the public thoroughfare right through the centre of the bus station??, although virtually all motorists assumed that it belonged to The Company and so didn’t dare to use it !! Sometime after the “double decking” of the Ilkley services the hourly 68 was discontinued (apart from a few peak hour trips Monday to Friday) and the half hourly service became entirely 63 via Manningham Lane.
There were actually two adjacent railway bridges over the A65 below Menston and, as you say, it was somewhat terrifying for passengers and drivers on the approach, as it seemed certain that the bus roof would be rudely removed – and the sensation was even worse with Samuel Ledgard’s highbridge vehicles.
I can’t honestly remember the intermediate destination blinds being as commendably detailed as shown here – later editions showed only Manningham Lane, Shipley, White Cross. The bottom line in this picture is a little blurred but appears also to say Burley Ben Rhydding. Incidentally the Company seemed to think that Bradford residents would not have heard of Ben Rhydding and so the rule was that on leaving Bradford “ILKLEY” would be shown, and upon reaching the area of local knowledge at Burley the display had to be altered to show “BEN RHYDDING.” I’m always blissfully happy to be reminded of those lovely enjoyable days so thank you again.

Chris Youhill

26/05/11 – 07:30

Very interesting comments about Bradford. Whilst I have a good knowledge of the present day city centre, I’m afraid I have no memories of how it was. Would I be correct in thinking that Chester Street Bus Station was taken out of use when the interchange opened? Do any traces of it still exist or has it been completely obliterated? I’ve seen many a photograph taken against the background of the white wall and always thought it looked a very evocative place.

Chris Barker

27/05/11 – 08:35

I’ve no idea, Chris B, about the present status of Chester Street but I’ll certainly have an “on site” look next time I visit the National Media Museum only a couple of hundred yards (or metres nowadays) away.

Chris Youhill

27/05/11 – 08:37

Chester Street closed with the advent of the Interchange. Chester Street is now just a street and is changed totally although some of the buildings on the”West Yorkshire” side still exist

Chris Hough

27/05/11 – 09:35

I fear, Chris Y, that you will be sadly disappointed, although not surprised, at the present state of Chester Street. It is now a busy dual-carriageway – part of a typical inner-city gyratory road system. However, some of the background buildings seen on old bus photos are still recognisable, eg. the roof lights of the old Public Baths in Morley Street (now a Wetherspoons).
On the Hebble side, there’s a new building, but the West Yorkshire loading area now seems to be a car park. The much-rebuilt 1960s Mecca Ballroom multi-storey, seen in latter day photos of the bus station, still dominates the background at the western entrance.

Paul Haywood

29/05/11 – 07:18

Chris B, as Chris H says, Chester Street bus station was closed following the opening of the Interchange in I think, 1977 – the year of The Queen’s Silver Jubilee. Chris Y’s comment about Chester Street being a public thoroughfare is most interesting, as I remember the roadway very well, but must admit would not have dared to use it for the reason outlined by Chris! The bus station spanned an area between Little Horton Lane (opposite the Silver Blades ice rink) and Morley Street (opposite the top end – or rear – of The Alhambra theatre). It was a place of much interest to the enthusiast with West Yorkshire, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, Hebble and Samuel Ledgard vehicles using it. (Am I right in thinking that Ribble also used it for coaches linking Lancashire and Yorkshire?) In the mid-sixties Bradford CT added even more variety with its AEC Regent Vs and Daimler CVG6LXs, following an agreement allowing joint operation of the Bradford – Eldwick – Dick Hudson’s service with West Yorkshire. It seemed strange at first seeing a bright blue ‘Corporation’ bus in what otherwise seemed to be a mainly red ‘Company’ bus station, but Bradfordians are not easily fazed and took it all in their stride! As Paul states, Chester Street still exists, but sadly as yet another stretch of dual carriageway.

Brendan Smith

31/05/11 – 18:49

This piece was written for me too, Chris. What amazing memories it conjures up! Many a time have I boarded the bus for Ilkley at that very spot against the famous green shed.
I knew Chester Street as a lad, right up to leaving Bradford in 1968, and remember the through street so well, and can count 6 operators who used the facility:-
West Yorkshire, Ledgard, Hebble, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, and Sheffield (C ?).
West Riding also came into Bradford, but from memory, did not use Chester Street.
I always associate older generation Bristols with Gardner “5”s, but the AVW was extremely characterful from a “music” point of view, and made for an extremely fast bus. I can remember “flying” along on the routes out of Bradford, especially past Shipley, and the HWW batch represented, to me, the pinnacle of ECW post war design. Flush interior sides, tubular seats, and metal framing all came together in these vehicles to produce a quality of vehicle not yet bettered, in my view. Superb buses!

John Whitaker

01/06/11 – 07:44

I’m glad there is such affection for the Bristol K (especially the 6B). Many people seem to turn their noses up, calling them boring and bog-standard etc. and I hate to hear it. For sure, you could find them from Lands End (Western National) to Northumberland (United), and Yarmouth (Eastern Counties) to Pwellheli (Crosville)- and a lot of other places and operators in between (take a bow, West Yorkshire). But you will notice that all of the extremities I listed are coastal holiday destinations. For me Bristol K6Bs (and their melodious note in second and third gears, which I could cheerfully listen to for hours) are inextricably associated with happy memories of seaside holidays. (And the sun always shone!)

Stephen Ford

01/06/11 – 07:47

I agree fully John with your commendation of the “HWW” DBs, but their super qualities were suddenly eclipsed for we Ilkley folk when 806 – 809 (DBW1 – 4) arrived – 8 feet wide and with classy white steering wheels. Originally having open platforms (returned later to ECW for doors) they seemed quite simply enormous and spacious and they are a batch from my teenage years which I still hold in great affection.

Chris Youhill

01/06/11 – 07:50

MLL 828_lr

The Chester Street, Bradford thread made me dig out this photo of Ledgard MLL 828 (former RT3518) which clearly shows the through road between the chain fences separating the West Yorkshire stands from “the others”. Unlike most of my photos, this one has the date 14 June 1964 written on it, and it shows the buildings on Little Horton Road being demolished to make way for the Silver Blades Ice Rink (owned by Mecca but not a Ballroom as I mistakenly said in my previous thread.)

Paul Haywood

01/06/11 – 10:22

I agree about the 806 – 809 batch Chris, but when the “new” excitement wore off, and in quiet contemplation (!) I do not think the S series 4 bay design had quite the same balance as the classic final version of the first post war 5 bay style.
I greeted the first DXs with absolute rapture, but looking back, I do not personally hold them in quite the same esteem as the HWW series. Something to do with my age perhaps!

John Whitaker

01/06/11 – 10:22

Stephen, among my many fond memories of the “DB”s one of my favourite recollections couldn’t possibly be further from the seaside !! When I was a conductor at WYRCC Ilkley Depot any of our Lodekkas away for the statutory two weeks overhaul was replaced by a “KDB” from Keighley – one of the batch between KDB 54 -7. One foul Winter evening, with very heavy snow, I left Ilkley with the 5.25 pm to Haworth on service K12 driven by Brian Wadsworth. After we left Addingham to climb to the “whited out” summit at Marchup Cottages the bus began to boil very seriously. This, of course, was long before two way radios and mobile telephones and we felt rather as if we were approaching the North Pole. – “Only one thing for it” said Brian “We’ll have to fill it up with snow.” We both set about the task with gusto, while the red hot radiator and engine hissed and tinkled in astonished protest. Once we achieved the necessary level we resumed the journey – to Haworth and back to Ilkley for 8.07pm – without incident. Looking back of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it was a really foolish first aid measure which I imagine could have caused considerable damage – if Brendan is reading this I must plead forgiveness on the grounds of youthful ignorance of engineering matters and hope that he won’t hold it against me !!

Chris Youhill

01/06/11 – 11:22

I agree with Stephen on every count – especially the AVW

David Oldfield

01/06/11 – 16:50

With such foul weather, I assume, Chris Y, that the radiator was emptied and re-filled with water/antifreeze mix later, to avoid saying goodbye prematurely to the radiator and/or block!

Chris Hebbron

02/06/11 – 05:57

Don’t worry Chris, most people would excuse your first aid measure, as you and your driver showed great initiative under extreme conditions in order to keep the show on the road! Your escapade reminded me of a tale related by Ken Robinson, for many years engine shop foreman at West Yorkshire’s Central Works. Ken was going home to Knaresborough one evening after work, and noted that the bus he was travelling on (a Lodekka) had started to boil en route. On arrival at the bus station the bus was steaming away merrily, but the driver seemed oblivious to this and was about to depart for Harrogate again when Ken intervened. Built like a Foden truck, he was a very fair man, but one who did not suffer fools gladly and spoke his mind when ruffled. He informed the driver who he was, and said under no circumstances was he to leave the site without filling the bus up with water. The driver, no doubt trying to avert being reported, duly did this, and Ken went on his way. Ken said he had only realised a little while later what he had asked of the driver, and hoped that the Lodekka’s red hot radiator and cylinder block had not cracked when the cold water had been poured in!! Thankfully all must been well as he heard no more about the incident, and no doubt gave a sigh of relief that the driver had not reported HIM!!

Brendan Smith

12/06/11 – 07:54

My best memories of all types of Bristol are from WYRCC service 30 between Bradford and Leeds. From Bradford the route ran along Canal Road, then up Kings Road with a right turn into steep Queens Road, which is where the fun began. There were almost inevitably passengers to alight/board just after the lights, and if the driver was really unlucky, also at the stop a little further up, which meant a standing start on a steep incline just before the gradient became even worse prior to the junction with Bolton Road. I recall that on a fully-laden bus on this steepest section all conversation would cease as the driver waited for the very last engine beat before engaging bottom gear in the crash gearbox. If successful, (as it usually was), there would be a collective sigh of relief, and a settling down for the long slow haul up to Bolton Junction, a stretch of road shared with Bradford trolleybuses which flew up the gradient in great contrast to the grinding Bristols.

Robert Appleby

13/06/11 – 07:59

Very evocative, Robert, I can picture the scene vividly, just as you describe!

Chris Hebbron

19/06/11 – 10:28

Your stories of boiling Bristols takes me back to the early 1950’s and to the sunny fields of Somerset. My Great Aunt had a farm at Somerton and my mother and I used to travel from Bristol to stay for a week or so during the school holidays. At the time my father had a firm’s car but could not use it privately so to get there involved a journey on the bus. Leaving Prince Street (the original bus terminal), we rode on mostly Bristol GO5G or Lowbridge K Bristols, the height being important due to the number of railway bridges on the A38 as the old Radstock coal lines and the wonderful Somerset and Dorset railways crossed over the road.
The journey was around forty miles down to Street where the route ended and my most clear memory was that it seemed to take the whole afternoon to get there and when we arrived the bus was always boiling merrily but nobody seemed concerned! The stop was outside a hotel and maybe the driver topped up for the return journey home with water from there.
The onward journey to Somerton was around 5/6 miles and for that part my memory is dim but with the benefit of age, I’m fairly sure it was probably done in a locally run Bedford OB.. another of my favourites!
Memories! I’m sorry my posting is not about the Yorkshire days but back then, it might as well have been in Africa for us Southern softies!

Richard Leaman

11/07/11 – 07:36

Like Stephen, I too am glad there is much affection for the Bristol/ECW K (and come to that, its single-decked sibling the L). It has all the hallmarks of a classic bus in having a well-engineered chassis with an enviable reliability record, a soundly-constructed yet attractively-styled body, and above all else a fitness for purpose. The melodious gearbox was an added bonus, together with that ‘chuckle’ from the transmission sometimes heard when setting off up a gentle incline.
Robert’s comments about the notorious hill starts at the Queen’s Road/Bolton Road junction in Bradford brought back memories as I know that area well. Another ‘unlucky driver’ spot was the bus stop towards the top end of Hollins Hill between Shipley and White Cross, which served the residents of Esholt. For a while in the mid-sixties I travelled by bus to school in Bradford each day from Harrogate (route 53 via Otley) and dreaded this stop on the journey home, where speed was obviously of the essence. A ‘drop off’ here meant an endless crawl in a low gear to the top of the hill for the poor bus and its driver – even with the newer Lodekkas. As a schoolboy I found it both fascinating and frustrating that passengers only ever seemed to alight here – nobody ever boarded! In my schoolboy mind I was convinced that ‘they’ did this deliberately, rather than catching their own Esholt (65) bus home! For much of the journey Samuel Ledgard ‘deckers could also be seen, and a schoolboy cheer could often be heard when ‘our’ West Yorkshire steed overtook one at a bus stop – only to be replaced with a “boo!” when the ‘Sammie’s’ passed us at a bus stop later on! Happy days indeed.

Brendan Smith

— Top of this posting —

York – West Yorkshire – Bristol K5G – OWT 201 – YDG 88


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

York – West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H30/26 re-bodied H28/28R in 1955

This bus is not what it seems as it started life as a 1939 Bristol K5G with ECW H30/26 body, numbered Y 702 (YDG 72) and registered DWU 995. A previous posting shows one of these buses of this batch (Y 706) in original condition in York. Re-numbered as YDG 88, this bus is seen in “new” condition in York in 1955.
West Yorkshire decided on a major rebuild of the K5G chassis which included new side frames and re-registering for this last tranche of eleven buses that were re-bodied by the ECW. These buses were 26ft long so the ECW body which was of the style to fit the 27 ft Bristol KS chassis was shortened. This is evident by the reduced width of the front side cab window and also the upper saloon side front windows. I believe similar ECW bodies were supplied to Brighton, Hove and District for their re-bodied ex London Transport Bristol K6As in 1954/55.
The re-registering the chassis was not the usual practice by West Yorkshire as many of their single decker Bristol J chassis received new side frames in the period 1946/47 when their bodies were rebuilt but kept the same registrations as did all the earlier 1937/38 prewar re-bodied Bristol K5Gs. Maybe someone can explain the policy of when to re-register a chassis. I wonder whether the York residents thought YDG 88 was a new bus as I think the Gardner 5LW engine was still rigidly mounted so a loud noise and vibration would be evident for the passengers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

Full lists of Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.

21/08/11 – 16:24

A most fascinating resume of this particular batch of rebuilds – I wonder if the method used to “get rid of” the extra 12 inches of the more modern bodywork caused any degree of cramping in the cab – I imagine it must have done. The destination blind brings back far more recent memories for me of my days helping out willingly at Selby Depot for Caldaire/British Bus/Cowie/Arriva. Our normal York services were to Leeds, Doncaster, Goole or Pontefract, but unexpectedly an evening service (409) was commenced from Piccadilly to Fulford Broadway – un-necessary, and competition gone mad !!

Chris Youhill

22/08/11 – 07:45

Chris, the KS had a longer bonnet with the front bulkhead set back a bit to accommodate the Gardner 6LW engine, hence the greater length of the cab. I imagine that the rebuilt body on the K5G and K6A would have retained the original cab dimensions of those models. A similar situation existed with the Guy Arab III, which had the extra length for a 6LW in the “snout”, whereas the Arab IV had the bulkhead repositioned slightly further back to avoid feature of the projecting radiator.

Roger Cox

23/08/11 – 10:02

It’s been something of a puzzle to many why this particular batch of West Yorkshire K-type ‘rehabs’ was re-registered Richard. When their prewar chassis were overhauled at WY Central Works, they were rebuilt with new chassis side members, and all other major units and components were overhauled, and refitted to the chassis. New PV2 radiators were also fitted, to give a more modern appearance. As you say, earlier batches of WY K-types similarly treated were not re-registered. Whether the ‘Yorkies’ also had new cross-members and outriggers fitted to the chassis on overhaul I do not know, but it may be a possibility and thus the chassis could have been deemed to be ‘new’ and re-registered?
In John F Gill’s informative ‘History of York-West Yorkshire’ the author states that the JOC decided that YDG66-76 “should be rebuilt with new chassis utilising the original running units and fitted with new bodies at the approximate cost of £2500 per vehicle, and that if possible the vehicles should be re-registered”. Later in the text John mentions that the old bodies had been removed and scrapped at Harrogate, new chassis parts fitted at WY’s Central Works costing £272, and the new ECW bodies cost £1077 each. Presumably labour and other costs would have then taken the figure nearer to the aforementioned £2500. All fascinating stuff, but which also begs the question – why was the batch also renumbered following rebuild to become YDG82-92? What handsome machines though, and very ‘York’. The lack of adverts on YDG88 also shows up the shine of the hand-painted coachwork a treat. Very nice!

Brendan Smith

23/08/11 – 14:13

Reregistration of rebuilds seems to be a complex subject. Yorkshire Traction, Yorkshire Woollen and County Motors all rebodied Leyland PS2s as double deckers, as they had a surplus of single deckers. While the YWD ones kept the registrations of the original chassis those in the YTC fleet were given marks contemporary with the new bodies. Presumably Dewsbury CBC was not willing to reregister these rebuilt vehicles but Barnsley was.
County tried to give theirs new registrations but Huddersfield CBC would not allow it so they were transferred to YTC and reregistered by Barnsley.
Bristol Tramways rebuilt some early 1930s B types with L type chassis in 1949 and the wartime bodies were lengthened. Later they were given 1949 bodies yet they always retained the 1930s registrations. This was to get round limits on the number of new chassis Bristol could build after nationalisation by classifying these as rebuilds, including retaining the B chassis number with an L suffix.

Geoff Kerr

24/08/11 – 08:19

One aspect which has gone unnoticed/unmentioned is the the whole range of the DG index was a Gloucestershire registration mark!

Chris Hebbron

24/08/11 – 10:30

Chris H I spotted that but after reading the first posting again, I think that was a fleet number rather than the registration as it quote a different one..
Quote “This bus is not what it seems as it started life as a 1939 Bristol K5G with ECW H30/26 body, numbered Y 702 (YDG 72) and registered DWU 995. A previous posting shows one of these buses of this batch (Y 706) in original condition in York. Re-numbered as YDG 88, this bus is seen in “new” condition in York in 1955.”
I was puzzled by the Gloucestershire link as well!

Richard Leaman

24/08/11 – 20:48

You’re right, Richard. For example, I was thinking the reference Y702 was the fleet number, followed by the reg’n mark, whereas it was the body, then fleet number. Silly me!

Chris Hebbron

24/08/11 – 20:50

YDG is the fleet number! Was I dreaming again? What this has to do with Gloucestershire registration marks I do not follow! YDG stands for York..double deck..Gardner.
This is a wonderfully evocative post, and a super photograph. What I would give to hear the wonderful sounds they made just once more!
I have been attempting to research which other Tilling fleets had this short style of KS body apart from York. Brighton H and D rebodied their ex London Bs to this style, and Hants and Dorset also rebodied some Ks to this style, some open top.
Something tells me there were others. Please can anyone advise?

John Whitaker

25/08/11 – 07:07

That is a very interesting question John W, something which has intrigued me, not so much who had them but how the final outcome was determined. It shows, in a way, that the Bristol K could have had a four bay body all along but of course they didn’t really come into vogue until the late 1940’s and ECW hadn’t designed such a thing until the advent of the KS. When other chassis makes arrived for rebodying, however, the five bay style was usually retained, I’m thinking of Guy Arabs and an AEC Regent for Midland General in 1955 and Guy Arabs, Leyland PD1’s and Albions for Scottish companies. Were former Tilling companies able to state any requirements or was it entirely down to the drawing office at Lowestoft, or were other factors involved?

Chris Barker

26/08/11 – 06:55

Very intriguing Chris, I agree. Perhaps the nationalised ownership had something to do with it in that Bristols, the “official” make, could be rebuilt with a “modern” look, whereas non Bristols did not matter in the same way, even if under BTC control as was Mansfield.
In the case of York-West Yorkshire, I strongly suspect that these vehicles were presented to the public as new, which, in a way, they were, but just re-using reconditioned running units. Bristol may have had a stock of obsolescent K chassis frames, with no sales potential due to the KS(W), and LD being the vogue. It would perhaps have been difficult also to fit KS frames, as other mitigating circumstances would apply, such as prop shaft lengths etc. I am pretty sure that the Brighton and Hants and Dorset rebodies retained original chassis frames, as they were not re registered , but I am open to correction as always!

John Whitaker

26/08/11 – 06:56

Chris, ECW did build a batch of twelve experimental 4-bay bodies on K-type chassis in 1948/49, and one actually went to York-West Yorkshire (YDB73). Brighton Hove & District and Bristol also received one each, with Eastern Counties taking the remaining nine. An ex-ECOC example was stored at West Yorkshire’s Grove Park depot in Harrogate for a while in the 1980’s. It looked in need of a lot of love and attention, and I don’t know who owned it or what happened to it, but hope such a rare vehicle survived into preservation. The body did look a bit ‘odd’ though, as it was of full four-bay construction rather than four-and-a-quarter. The overall outline was of a standard highbridge ECW body of the period, but with the main side windows ‘stretched’ lengthways. Front and rear upper deck side windows remained short in length however, as on a standard K-type body. This, and the lack of a quarter window or panel ahead of the rear platform looked decidedly strange, and the later 4-bay design used on the KS/KSW chassis looked to me, a more balanced and happier design.

Brendan Smith

26/08/11 – 14:35

I have always loved the ECW high-bridge special four and a quarter bay body built on the Bristol K chassis 1954 /55. I bought the photo of YDG 88 posted above on a West Yorkshire Information Service Tour in 1956 and now sharing it with others has brought a great deal of information about these lovely Bristol K5G buses. I believe there were only 27 of these special bodies built. Brighton had 6, Hants & Dorset had 10 and York West Yorkshire had 11 and all were re bodies. If anybody has further information of more than the 27 I have listed, please submit a comment.

Richard Fieldhouse

27/08/11 – 07:27

Quoting John above..
” Bristol may have had a stock of obsolescent K chassis frames, with no sales potential due to the KS(W), and LD being the vogue.”
I used to live very near to the Bristol Commercial Vehicle works (Motor Constructional Works if preferred!) and when riding my three wheeler bike past the open yard, even then I saw that piles of brake drums, axle assemblies, chassis rails, steering components etc. etc, were left just lying outside on a patch of ground right next to the main Bath Road and completely unprotected except for the silver paint! No railings, no fence, no security and left there for years! Selecting parts for one off designs would have not been any problem!
Try doing that now and keeping them there overnight would be a challenge. Different days!

Richard Leaman

30/08/11 – 08:01

That indeed would explain it Richard! Piles of chassis frames etc at the Bristol works when you passed on your bike. We used to make similar excursions on our bikes around various depots and scrap yards in the Bradford area. Times have changed as you say!
Perhaps new chassis sides were fitted to the H & D and B H & D rebodies, even if not re-registered.
There were no lowbridge equivalents as far as I can see, and it was about this time when H and D had some K chassis rebodied with lowbridge ECW bodies built to the original 5 bay style, some, I believe, as “8 footers”
All detailed in ECW Part 2, a book I have unfortunately mislaid!

John Whitaker

Eastern Counties – Bristol K5G – LKH 255 – KNG 255

Eastern Counties - Bristol K5G - LKH 255 - KNG 255

Eastern Counties Omnibus Company
1950
Bristol K5G
ECW H56R

This is a picture taken in my teen-age years of one of my favourite K5G’s which used to regularly run the route 92A to my home council estate in Norwich. Taken in Surrey Street garage on 23rd August 1969 it rests for the night.
The bus was withdrawn at the end of March 1970.
Surrey Street Bus Station was built on a rising gradient between Surrey Street and Queens Road, and opened in 1936. The garage was huge (able to store 180 buses I believe). The area is still the bus station, but in its place now is a modern bus terminus right on the spot where the garage was.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Graham W

15/08/13 – 17:40

Nice “atmospheric” shot, Graham. Thanks for posting.

Pete Davies

16/08/13 – 06:36

Yes and amazingly the first Eastern Counties bus on the site – just as I was preparing to send one myself to redress the deficiency.

John Stringer

16/08/13 – 14:51

Interesting that the ECOC Ks lasted until 1970. All the Bristol Omnibus ones had gone by 1966. More hills there of course but most were K6A or 6B.

Geoff Kerr

17/08/13 – 16:37

What a great photograph, which brings the memories flooding back from the days when I drove for E.C.O.C at Cambridge (1970-1975). It could easily be mistaken for Hills Road garage, in the late evening when all the buses are back in and cleaned, refuelled etc., ready for the run out. In my day they would have been LKH’s and LKD’s. On freezing winter mornings the exhaust smoke would billow out from the garage as the buses were on cold start, and I can still feel the icy cold steering wheel almost sticking to my hands… gloves were essential for an early start. What would I now give for an opportunity to drive one of these on the 106 up to Girton Corner and back through the city centre and on to Red Cross (now Addenbrooke’s Hospital)

Norman Long

17/08/13 – 16:39

ectt

In the submission by Graham W on the ECOC Bristol K5G, he makes mention of the Surrey Street Bus Station built in 1936.
Attached is a copy of the ECOC Timetable commencing 25th March 1936 for Norwich Services.
ECOC have not wasted a second in advertising the new facility to its passengers by putting it on the front of the latest Timetable.
How much more interesting is that cover than the modern day stuff.

Stephen Howarth

02/07/14 – 06:30

I remember the SC with ECOC. Lowestoft had TVF 520 which was deployed on the 20A to Rock Estate. Noisy and slow! Attractive little bus though. Yes, the back axle was a BMC one.
The K? attractive bus but with a 5LW decidedly sluggish. Seats were a darn sight more comfortable than the nasty plastic things too many operators are fond of now. The interior was also more welcoming, I think, not having that awful dark grey ceiling you see too often now. LKH 173, OVF 173 was at Lowestoft into the 1970s. As regards driving them, one of the inspectors at Lowestoft described them as “..horrible things to drive..”

Brian Moore

02/07/14 – 11:00

Two lovely pictures above from the days of “real” bus operation. I shall never forget my first encounter with beautiful Cambridge, when I worked for Wallace Arnold and was on my very first tour feeder from Leeds to Southend Airport – no route learning of any kind in those days, and only an inadequate “Roneo stencilled” A4 sheet with scant information for the 207 mile journey. Lunch was at the University Arms – unloading and parking nigh on impossible – after which the sheet advised “via A10/A130 Trumpington High Street” etc etc. By now I was well over an hour late and breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the sign “A10.” I couldn’t help noticing lovely red ECOC Bristols coming the other way showing “Trumpington” and began to worry – surely more than one driver wouldn’t have forgotten to change the destination blind ?? I pulled up and asked a friendly constable about the route and his kindly face looked sorry for me as he said “Oh no, you’re on the A10 to Ely, you should be on the A10 for Royston.”
I was now ready to abandon ship and run away but carried on, somehow. I think the only thing that saved my sanity that scorching hot summer day was when I descended a long hill lined with lovely trees into a beautiful unspoilt market town, “Saffron Walden.” Older readers may remember the comedy radio weekly show “Much Binding in the Marsh” in which Richard Murdoch and Kenneth Horne were RAF officers who always asked each other “Are you going to Saffron Walden for the weekend Sir?” I’d always thought that like the title of the show Saffron Walden was an invented “spoof” name !! Eventually arriving at Southend Airport at 7.00pm (two hours late) the rampaging courier, a Spanish man who should have been with me from Leeds but helped himself to two unauthorised days off, cried out “Veeere ‘av you been – ve have dinner in Ostende at 7.30pm.” By now completely drained I asked him where had HE been as it was part of his job to show me the route. I managed to smile to myself with relief at the thought of the Channel Airways Dakota being spectacularly unable to reach Belgium in time for the soup !! After that, the Southend run became one of my favourite jobs which I did often, and during our evenings there I fell in love with the town and the Essex area. The cherry on the cake was the arrangement whereby the coaches were cleaned and refuelled at Prittlewell depot by Eastern National.

Chris Youhill

28/07/14 – 07:49

Like Norman Long, I was also a driver with ECOC at Cambridge. I later moved to St Ives outstation and then Peterborough, by which time the area had become Cambus. At Peterborough I became the regular driver of the by-then-semi-preserved FLF453 with, usually, Ken Johnson on the back. FLF453 was one of the class I also drove regularly whilst it was based at Cambridge. One ‘pig’ of an FLF was 465 which during its last years had only a four speed gearbox fitted. Nobody told unfamiliar drivers about this and they found out the embarrassing way – as I did one day on Victoria Avenue.
Regarding the LKH class, the last 7′ 6″ example in Cambridge was 135(HPW 135)and I believe this became the final 7′ 6″ K in the ECOC fleet. Of the 8′ versions, the final pair in Cambridge were 168 (OVF 168) and 269 (LNG 269). The honour of being the final example in Cambridge fell to 269 which I believe just made it into 1971. One of the FAH registered examples, FAH 106, also lingered on in Cambridge almost to the end. It was still running in 1969 anyway.
On that very well served destination ‘Service’, I believe the habit of displaying this originated back in ‘tin bible’ days when changing destinations involved a rummage through a hut in Drummer Street. But in later ECOC years ‘Service’ was displayed sometimes out of laziness but sometimes because the bus concerned had come from another depot. The practice of displaying ‘Service’ was officially prohibited if the proper display was available but the inspectors and management never really bothered to enforce it. The practice continued into Cambus days. Displaying ‘Service’ wasn’t really a problem as local people knew the routes and tourists didn’t know the difference between Service, Red Cross, Keynes Road, Foster Road or Fen Estate anyway!
The SC4LK (LC) was a horrid, noisy little thing. The back axle was indeed a BMC product (usually quoted as being from Austin) and I think the gearbox was a David Brown effort. The Gardner 4LK engine was essentially the same unit as used in the midget submarines of WWII. On thing I remember the LC for was the enormous reversing lamp on its rear. Also, if memory serves me correctly, there was a bell cord along the saloon ceiling similar to that used by London Transport instead of bell pushes.
Cambridge depot had LKH256-260 and possibly 261. Of those 256-8 spent just about all their lives at Cambridge.
The KNG (and onwards) registered examples always seemed modern in their day due to having stainless steel (or chrome plated) grab poles and seat grabs. Earlier K’s (HPW, GPW, FAH, FNG etc registrations) usually had wooden seat grabs and grab poles covered in some sort of black plastic. Another difference, not visible on the picture of 255, was the upper deck front grabrails. KNG reg. onwards had two separate grabrails mounted on top of the destination box, whereas earlier K’s had a black rail mounted midway up the front windows and passing right across. From memory the lowbridge LK types similarly differed according to age.

Darren Kitson

Western National – Bristol K6B – KUO 972 – 959

Western National - Bristol K6B - KUO 972 - 959

Western National Omnibus Co Ltd
1950
Bristol K6B
ECW L27/28R

KUO 972 is former Western National 959 dating from 1950. It is a K6B with ECW L27/28R body that has undergone full restoration. It was withdrawn in 1970 after spending all it’s working life for Western National in Cornwall. It is seen in service at Brislington on 10th August 2014 during the Bristol Vintage Bus Group running day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

26/08/14 – 10:49

Couldn’t get to Brislington this year so thanks, Ken, for a nice atmospheric b&w picture of a fine bus. Forget all those Routemasters and Atlanteans—the K(SW)6B is a TRUE classic.

Ian T

26/08/14 – 15:34

For others who may not have been able to get to Brislington some more of my pictures can be found at www.flickr.com/photos/  – set includes a Routemaster! I was meant to travel down on OTT 43 but we only got as far as Strensham services before having to turn back with problems with the exhaust manifold. So I then drove by car to Brislington arriving much later than I had planned. Fortunately the weather improved as the day went on. This vehicle is scheduled to be at Kingsbridge running day in September

Ken Jones

Maidstone & District – Bristol K6A – HKE 860 – DH 152

Maidstone & District - Bristol K6A - HKE 860 - DH 152

Maidstone & District Motor Services Ltd
1945
Bristol K6A
Weymann H30/26R

In the years before the BAT-Tilling rift in 1942, the Maidstone & District company developed quite a liking for the Bristol double deck chassis. Initially, the GO5G type was tried, 12 going to the main fleet and 4 to the Chatham & District subsidiary in 1936. They did not impress. The bodies were removed in 1938 and the chassis were sold on to Bristol Tramways. Despite this inauspicious start, Chatham & District then took 41 with highbridge bodies and Maidstone & District 12 with lowbridge bodies of the new K5G type from the end of 1938 up to the outbreak of war in September 1939. When Tilling and BET split, Tilling group fleets retained the policy of standardising on Bristol/ECW machinery, whilst the BET companies sourced their vehicles from various manufacturers. However, the exigencies of wartime production did not grant the indulgence of much choice in such matters and operators largely had to take what they were given, though the Tilling companies preferred to minimise their intake of non Bristol double deck machinery. Nevertheless, Chatham and District managed to obtain 5 and Maidstone & District 7 examples of the total of 85 unfrozen K5G buses produced in 1942. Towards the end of the war, matters were relaxed to a certain degree, and, within the limitations on offer, operators were able to express a preference for the model that best fitted into the fleet profile, though this was not always heeded by the authorities. During and immediately after the war, the Bristol concern produced a limited number of utility K type buses in three sanctions, but these lost the 5LW engine in favour of the 6 cylinder AEC A202, a version of the 7.7 (actually of 7.58 litres) specifically designed to fit in place of the Gardner. The W1 sanction consisted of 150 chassis, the W2 of 100, and W3 of 200. The W1 and W2 sanctions were equipped with the earlier style of high mounted radiator, but the W3 buses had the new lower mounted PV2 bonnet and radiator. Maidstone and District became an enthusiastic operator, accepting 30 of W1, 19 of W2 and 5 of W3. After the war, Maidstone and District continued to take deliveries of the K6A until the sale of the Bristol company to the government led to the withdrawal of that make from the open market. In recognition of the qualities of the Bristol chassis, Maidstone & District embarked upon a rebodying programme for the unfrozen K5G and utility K6A fleet, but the pre war examples were sold out of service in the mid 1950s. The rebodied K5Gs retained their high mounted radiators, but the rebodied W1 and W2 sanctions of K6As were fitted with the low mounted PV2 radiator. In most cases, new H30/26R bodywork of very attractive design was supplied by Weymann, but the later rebuilds received the decidedly less appealing Orion type. Curiously, many of the later buses of 1946/7/8, which retained their original bodywork to the end, were sold out of service earlier than the rebodied wartime machines. The photograph above shows chassis number W2.038, DH 152, HKE 860 of 1945 with a PV2 radiator and Weymann H30/26R body that replaced the original high radiator and Duple H30/26R in May 1953. It is seen in Tonbridge in 1960 on its way to the village of East Peckham, once a major centre of the hop growing industry. This bus stayed in the Maidstone and District fleet until 1966.

MD Car

Sadly the limitations of the Comet S camera lens prevent me from identifying the splendid car following the bus.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

16/03/15 – 06:50

What a fantastic shot. The long since built over Tonbridge Garage had several examples of these old Bristols which seemed to have been used to cover just about anything (at Tunbridge Wells they had distinct allocations).
Route 88 was allocated OMO Reliances and provided a useful connection to the nearest major hospital at Pembery, and connected with route 33 at the East Peckham end of the route.
On the offside is the road taken by Tonbridges regular Bristol allocation, Route 100, a 20 minute frequency town service with LL6A single deckers.

Patrick Armstrong

17/03/15 – 16:51

Wonderful-looking decker, and I bet the reality was just as good as the appearance. I was momentarily fooled by the “East Peckham” destination and imagined that the bus was on hire to London Transport, but somehow the landscape seemed not to bear that out, so I googled E. Peckham and found it just to the west of the Paddock Wood–Maidstone railway line—the very line I hope to use to get to the SE Bus Festival on the 28th of March.
Has any of our members been to this event, and if so how d’you rate it? The list of vehicles expected to attend looks very impressive. Last time I went to Maidstone was to see the trolleybuses before they disappeared, so I’m a bit out of date.

Ian T

18/03/15 – 07:01

Lovely photo and attractive bus. It was a very sensible conversion job by M&D. However, it always looks odd to me to see Bristol K’s without ECW bodies!

Chris Hebbron

18/03/15 – 07:02

There can’t have been a world of difference between the Bristol K6A and the AEC Regent II. Presumably the Bristol gearbox and transmission produced a somewhat different sound but surely the performance would have been similar? Is there anyone who has experience of driving both?

Chris Barker

19/03/15 – 07:18

Ian T:
IMO, the South East Bus Festival is definitely worth attending. The site is huge and features a perimeter road used by some of the vehicles to give rides to the public.
The vehicles are not jammed in lines and there are good photographic opportunities.
There is spacious covered accommodation for sales stalls and displays such as models, slide shows and there are talks by professional busmen – Roger Davies of Classic Bus fame has appeared, for example.
Plenty of other vehicles such as lorries, tractors and classic cars are also on display.
You can find a list of bus entries on the Arriva website and will see sister vehicle HKE 867 has been entered. It usually is on the free rides circuit so you should be able to sample it!
One last bit of advice – wear warm clothing and bring your own refreshments! The site is on the top of the North Downs and can be breezy.

Malcolm Boyland

21/03/15 – 07:03

I would also agree that the South East Bus Festival is worth attending. Where else can you have a ride on a pre-war Leyland Titan and the latest hybrid?

Nigel Turner

21/03/15 – 15:44

Malcolm and Nigel: many thanks for you info and advice.
The event sounds too good to miss.
Chris B: I’ve never driven a K6A but I’ve been lucky enough to ride the very lively Thames Valley 446 (DBL 154). Bus engineer pal Graham Green of Reading reckons that the AEC 7.7 goes better in other makers’ vehicles than it does in AEC’s own. I’m sure the 5-speed gearbox in the Thames Valley K6A reinforces that impression. How does the Daimler CWA6 compare with the CWD6? My guess is that the Daimler engine’s 13% greater capacity gives little advantage in performance.

Ian T

22/03/15 – 06:43

There is a (very) short video of the sound of a restored Lincolnshire K6A at this site (scroll to the bottom):- www.lvvs.org.uk/dbe187.htm  
The engine was rigidly mounted in both the K6A and the Regent II, but the mellow sounding Bristol constant mesh gearbox contrasted with the scream of the AEC straight cut gear D124 crash gearbox. Both types employed the triple servo braking system, and both, again, were noted for relatively light steering characteristics.
The Daimler CD6 had a capacity of 8.6 litres and a nominal output of 100bhp at 1750 rpm, but the quality varied greatly between individual examples. Like the contemporary and even more problematical Crossley HOE7 engine of identical bore and stroke (copied from the pre war Leyland unit), it performed best in single deck chassis. However, OBP does have an expert who can give an informed opinion of the Daimler engine from personal experience. Please step forward Chris Youhill.

Roger Cox

22/03/15 – 06:43

Very interesting piece particularly as I once owned an ex Hants & Dorset 1945 K6A open topper fitted with an AEC engine (see my description under ‘Hants & Dorset 1945 Bristol K6A‘).
By the way, the touring car following the bus is almost certainly a Riley Nine from the early to mid 1930’s.

John Barringer

22/03/15 – 09:20

I am sure that you are right about the Riley, John. On the first Sunday in October each year I travel down from East Anglia to the old Croydon Airport building for an ATC reunion. A fellow “old cadet” brings his splendid open tourer Riley Nine in British Racing Green. I plan to get one when I win the Lottery – not this week, sadly (can you believe that the same thing happened last week as well?!).

Roger Cox

22/03/15 – 14:25

Well done, John B, for identifying the car as a Riley Nine – my frustrations are over! There was always something special (and quirky) about Rileys, before the advent of ‘badge engineering’!
Roger C – I’ve said before that I grew up in the Morden that was LTE’s Daimlerland post-war. I recall that on the front inside of the driver’s cab above the windscreen of D140 was the chalk message, “D140, the fastest D of them all”. It was one of the dozen CWD’s in the 281-strong fleet. You could always tell the CWD’s from the CWA’s, because the inspection holes in the bonnet-sides of each type were in a different place. So there might have been some extra performance with them.
Of course, any advantage disappeared when the engines were replaced by more driver/maintenance-friendly ex-STL AEC engines, around 1950!

Chris Hebbron

23/03/15 – 07:08

Doncaster had some K6A’s and CVD6’s of similar post-war -1948- vintage. The Bristols seemed confined to the straight up and down former tram Highfields route whilst the Daimlers went further and served the more varied and longer Skellow routes. I am prompted to note this because Roger reminded me of the agonised sound of the AEC gearbox and the impression of great revs in a short time on starting off, without any great forward progress. The Daimlers on the other hand seemed much more refined and even speedy: unfortunately their smell of hot diesel at rest, especially with the special cooling device (engine side panel resting on mudguard) in use cannot be replicated on this site- roll on smellerama…

Joe

25/03/15 – 16:25

Just a note about the car identified above. It is a 1929/30 Riley Model 9 Tourer as you have recalled. It is an early car and is a desirable “Eligible” car for Vintage Sports Car Club membership events. In good condition they are a delight to drive as was/is my 1937 12/4 Falcon version!

Richard Leaman

10/10/18 – 05:15

What is also interesting is the different styles of Weymann body fitted. The post war KKK Bristols (apart from one) had what was the post war equivalent of the pre war five bay Weymann body (similar to the LT post war STLs). Some of the HKE rebodyings had the same style. There then followed the 1951/2 version (as above) which had deeper windows. This style was also fitted to the rebodied Guys (again except one) and Daimlers as well as the high radiator Chatham Traction K5Gs. There then followed the 1953 four bay style (as exemplified by the preserved K6A) and then finally the Orion. The last two body styles were only fitted to the low radiator Bristol K6As. The LKT lowbridge Bristol K6As also had a lowbridge version of this style of bodywork fitted from new. All the vehicles were 7 foot 6 inches wide requiring a special narrow version of the Orion body.

Gordon Mackley

Keighley – West Yorkshire – Bristol K5G – CWX 671 – KDG 26

Keighley - West Yorkshire - Bristol K5G - CWX 671 - KDG 26

Keighley – West Yorkshire
1938
Bristol K5G
Roe L27/28R

Keighley – West Yorkshire was established as a branch of West Yorkshire Road Car in 1930, if we believe the entry on Wikipedia. CWX 671 was new to KWY in 1938 and is a Bristol K5G, but the bodywork is not what one might expect, being by Roe rather than by ECW, and is to L27/28R layout being rebodied in 1950, it originally did have an ECW L27/26R body. We see her in North Albert Street, on the corner of Kent Street, Fleetwood, arriving to take her place for Tram Sunday on 20 July 2003.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

28/08/15 – 06:56

It was actually 1932 when Keighley Corporation “gave way” into Keighley West Yorkshire Services Ltd. Also, after the April 1954 renumbering, these DGs never had the fleet number on the front dash as shown here. Before the April 1954 renumbering, they DID carry fleet numbers here.
These Roe bodies were of exceptional quality and were ordered because ECW were unable to carry out the total rebody requirement for the K class pre war buses. It was part of a wider “ex Tilling Group” exercise with United Automobile also being involved.
Wonderful old Bristol buses, and firm favourites of mine as we were blessed with a good allocation at Bradford depot!
Thanks Pete for a super memory jogger!

John Whitaker

29/08/15 – 06:53

Thanks, John. I wasn’t aware of her original body details, and I suspect that Peter added this bit from his sources.

Pete Davies

29/08/15 – 06:54

Exceptionally good-looking body, the more so because it’s a low-bridged one, yet don’t obviously look it.
The blind display itself is very informative, if not presented well in the photo!
Thank goodness the re-build also included the lower PV radiator, otherwise the overall effect would have been greatly diminished!.

Chris Hebbron

01/09/15 – 07:18

As John points out, ECW at the time were at full stretch, with full order books and a backlog developing, hence the rebodying of sixteen of West Yorkshire’s Bristol K5G ‘rehab’ chassis by Roe in 1950. The vehicles concerned were Keighley-West Yorkshire K362/366 (BWY994/998) dating from 1937, and K381-384 (CWX669-672) from 1938. Main fleet vehicles so treated were 385-394 (CWX673-682) from 1939. In the 1954 renumbering K362/366 became KDG16/20, K381-384 became KDG24-27, and 385-394 became DG28-35. When delivered, they were unusual in having the beading edging the cream bands picked out in red, rather than the usual black, and I believe all sixteen retained this feature throughout their WY/KWY lives. A lovely shot of KDG26, and to my eyes bright sunshine always seemed to show the Tilling red at its best. Wonderful.

Brendan Smith

01/09/15 – 07:19

KDG26 was part of a batch of 16 buses supplied with Roe low-bridge bodies in 1950. 10 were owned by the West Yorkshire Road Car Company Ltd and 6 including KDG26 were owned by Keighley-West Yorkshire Services Ltd. My records for 1953 show all the 10 WYRCC buses were allocated to the Bradford depot and this confirms the comments from John W. They were lovely solid buses to ride on and sometimes appeared on the Bradford to Ilkley 63 service which was my home route.
I do recall United Automobile having some similar Bristol K5G/Roe re-bodies but I am not sure of the number they had. Can anybody supply more information?

Richard Fieldhouse

01/09/15 – 07:20

CWX 671_2
CWX 671_3

More shots of KDG 26 taken at a Gardner Engine Rally held in June 2005 at Castlefield Canal Basin in Manchester. As well as buses the event included lorries, narrowboats and static engines. Anything was welcome as long it had a Gardner engine. It was a very successful event but I am not aware that it was ever repeated although I moved away from the north west shortly after and lost touch with events in that area.

Philip Halstead

02/09/15 – 06:58

The fascinating thing about these Roe rebodied K5Gs is the body profile, which seemed to have more in common with the pre-war ECW bodies carried originally, than the contemporary ECW design!
The chassis overhaul was very thorough, including of course, the update to PV2 radiator.
I doubt that the original bodies were worn out either, as 5 were transferred to 707-711, the W sanction K6As originally with Strachan utility bodies, later to be K5Gs. Probably the whole exercise was the result of a calculation to maximise the life expectancy, an aim which was well fulfilled!
To cover this K rebodying programme, the G type buses mainly remained in service until 1951/2, and what memories they bring back!

PS. !! Just to echo Brendan`s comment about Tilling red! It was a classic livery . If only the modern image was so adorned !!

John Whitaker

02/09/15 – 06:59

Thank you for your thoughts, gents.

Pete Davies

03/09/15 – 07:15

Coincidentally First Leeds have just repainted a Volvo/Gemini double decker into WYRCC Tilling red with single cream band livery (or an approximation of it).

John Stringer

04/09/15 – 07:09

Interesting thought, John. It has to be better than the multiple shades of grey “camouflage” paint job.

Pete Davies

04/09/15 – 07:12

With reference to the comment on West Yorkshire RCC by Richard Fieldhouse, United rebodied 4 prewar buses with Roe lowbridge bodies;
LUT1 EHN 617 Bristol K5G 47.088 Roe 3058 L27/28R
LUT2 EHN 618 Bristol K5G 47.089 Roe 3062 L27/28R
LUT3 EHN 620 Bristol K5G 47.091 Roe 3067 L27/28R
LUT4 EHN 621 Bristol K5G 47.092 Roe 3071 L27/28R
BGL 17-18,20-21, later BDO 17,18,20 & 21. New in 1939 with ECW 5684/5/7/8 L24/24R series 1 bodies, Rebodied in 1950 as LUT 1-4.
EHN 619 was not rebodied.
United also bought two new Bristol L5G single deck buses bodied by Roe in 1952;
BG 13 PHN 408 Bristol L5G 73.177R Roe ? B35F 1952
BG 14 PHN 409 Bristol L5G 73.178R Roe ? B35F 1952

Ron Mesure

04/09/15 – 07:14

It’s probably not a coincidence that First Leeds have painted a Volvo in Tilling Red since one of the current owners of CWX 671 is a very senior member of management at First Bus.
I’ve just been lent some Omnibus Society Magazines dating from 1963 and there was some comment about the fact that this bus had been entered in the London – Brighton run and some people felt it was too modern. I bet nobody would complain if it was entered now.

Nigel Turner

04/09/15 – 07:14

Having seen it at the Sheffield running day last weekend, I don’t think the first bus Gemini is the correct shade of red.

Don McKeown

05/09/15 – 07:11

Many thanks Ron M for the detailed information on the United Bristol K5Gs.

Richard Fieldhouse

05/09/15 – 07:12

It’s a while since a topic has come up on which I can comment. Here are three photographs which I took of Keighley West Yorkshire K5Gs in 1961 and 1963. I grew up in Keighley and used these K5Gs every day because they were the mainstay of the cross town routes.

wy_01

In this photo of BWY 999 (KDG21) with BWY 994 (KDG16) you can see the difference in them as they are parked side by side in Keighley depot, the ECW body on the left and the Roe on the right.

wy_02

In this photo showing the entrance to Keighley garage, the ECW bodied CWX 668 (KDG223) is next to the famous CWX 671 (KDG26). This shot was taken in October 1961 on a Sunday morning. The buses are watering up ready for going into service. It’s a pity that we can’t see the fleet number on KDG 26, and that is because it was one of the handful which retained stamped metal number plates. I am not sure of the dates when these plates were fitted to the buses, but they were not very legible and so were replaced by transfers.

wy_03

The third photo shows KDG26 just 3 months before it was withdrawn and it looks smart even then. The photo was taken 30/9/62.

David Rhodes

06/09/15 – 07:07

oooH! Nice, David, and very atmospheric! Thank you for posting.

Pete Davies

06/09/15 – 07:08

Lovely photos David and thank you for posting. The aluminium fleetnumber plates you mention were introduced in summer 1957. They were applied externally to 52 vehicles, but by the end of the year the idea had been dropped – the plates being difficult to read at a distance, as David points out. West Yorkshire had had two plates produced for every vehicle in the fleet, and it was decided that they would be fitted internally to each vehicle instead, rather than scrapping them altogether. (One was fitted in the cab and the other near the entrance door).

Brendan Smith

06/09/15 – 07:09

Was Ramsden’s “Yorkshire’s Most Popular Beer”? Ramsden’s brewery occupied the site in Halifax currently occupied by the HBoS offices. Tetley’s brewery, of Leeds, purchased Ramsden’s in 1964, the brewery was demolished in 1968 . . . the then Halifax Building Society’s head office rising from the site in 1973. History suggests perhaps that Ramsden’s might have been over-stating their popularity! Advertisements on buses provide a window into other aspects of social history, which I’m starting to appreciate more as I accelerate past middle age.

Philip Rushworth

06/09/15 – 07:10

In response to Philip Halstead, the Gardner Engine Rally is a two-day weekend event which takes place every two years at different locations on the canal network. Unfortunately there are usually few if any PSVs present. Details at //gardnerengineforum.co.uk/Events.html

Peter Williamson

16/11/19 – 13:12

Re the Philip Rushworth comment 06/09/15, advertising claims like “Most popular” or “best” (as in the Nottingham Area “Home Ales are best” probably fell foul of the Trades Description Act, as they are always open to question.

Terry Walker

Keighley – West Yorkshire – Bristol K – CWX 671 – KDG26

CWX 671

Keighley – West Yorkshire
1950
Bristol K5G
Roe L27/28R

This Roe L27/28R Bristol K5G was delivered to Keighley – West Yorkshire (as K383) in April 1950. Over sixty-one years later KDG26 is seen passing through the impressive arch of the Halifax Piece Hall when taking a very active part in the Heart of the Pennines Event in October 2011. Chassis number 47.023, body number GO3063.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

08/12/15 – 05:55

CWX 671 was in fact new in 1938 and rebodied by Roe in 1950.

Eric Bawden

08/12/15 – 13:57

This epic picture of what is still, today, a magnificent vehicle and in fine condition and brings back happy memories for me from the days in the early 1960s when I was a young conductor at WY’s Ilkley depot. At that time the staff position at Keighley was critical and we were often sent there to help out, on completely unfamiliar routes of course. On one occasion I was sent on route 19 to Hebden Bridge and, my word, what a wild and desolate, but beautiful nevertheless, route it is. In fact so desolate that some of the fare stages could only be described by “fourth milestone from Hebden Bridge” etc. and one of the stages mentions “Galstones” !! One of my most treasured possessions is my 1960 fare book which I often dip into with great pleasure. Regarding the 19 route I still shudder even now in the car at how they went on in the icy Winters – there is a “Swiss style” treacherous hill near to Hebden Bridge with minimal edge protection and a wicked sheer drop in the event of a mishap. A route not for the faint hearted and that’s for sure.

Chris Youhill

08/12/15 – 13:58

An unusual view, Les, and thanks for posting. For a more ‘traditional’ angle of viewing this specimen, please refer to my own posting of her in Fleetwood.

Pete Davies