United Automobile Services 1952 Bristol KSW6B ECW H32/28R
Following all the recent enthusiastic comment regarding the Western National KS5G photo, I thought I would submit this, taken from a recently rediscovered early slide of mine. United’s BH27 (originally BBH27), PHN 809, a KSW6B, is seen operating the 109 Seafront Service around North Marine Drive in Scarborough in 1966, previously the sole preserve of the dedicated ‘Queen Mary’ Bristol LWL’s. New in 1952, this fine machine was withdrawn the following year, and after being stored for a further year or so was sold to North’s, the dealer, who sold it for scrap.
Ah, Scarborough 1966 – my last year at school. We had a week’s geography field course in Scarborough. Stayed at a hotel on Castle Road, not far from the Court House where all the United town services started and terminated. I seem to remember many of them were in the hands of KSWs. We had some free time on the Sunday afternoon and three of us set off on a KSW out to Cloughton, then walked up the closed but still intact Whitby railway line as far as Stainton Dale station. Very picturesque and great fun.
Stephen Ford
29/03/12 – 11:44
As anyone who’s been on this site for long enough will know, I’m an AEC man. If you pay attention, you’ll also know I’m a Bristol/Bristol man. Many happy holidays, as a kid, in Scarborough confirmed this and Bristol engined KSWs like this (along with similar engined Lodekkas) are part of the happy memories. I can remember days like this along the Marine Drive – and also the sea fret which was like a cloak around you!
David Oldfield
29/03/12 – 17:57
I would imagine that the area covered by United must have made them ‘Geographically at least’ one of the biggest operators in the Tilling Group. Their territory included parts of the Scottish Border Region, the whole of Northumberland and Durham, parts of Cumberland and Westmoreland and a huge chunk of North Yorkshire, in addition, they had a lot of what would now be called ‘Inter City Express Routes’ including the legendary twice daily Tyne Tees Thames service. Apart from any vehicles that came into the fleet as a result of takeovers, they were all HN Darlington registrations. I don’t have a clue how many vehicles they had, but they were always immaculate and would put many an operator to shame
Ronnie Hoye
29/03/12 – 17:57
What a nostalgic shot this is, it looks to be a very bracing day on the Scarborough sea front. This one has special meaning for me as well, as I took some of my first bus photographs with the family Agfa at the Corner Cafe while on holiday in Scarborough in the summer of 1961. I ended up with quite a few rear end views, some better than others, simply because I was quite young and shy at the time, and thus a bit reluctant to point the camera at a bus load of passengers staring at me through the windows! Consequently I still have in my collection a rather nice shot of the back end of NHN 149, waiting to depart the North Sands terminus on local service 108 to Holbeck Road. Happy days.
Dave Careless
03/02/13 – 06:58
Brighton in the early 50s had a lot of B H & District Bristol buses and if anyone from Brighton remembers the route 14, on that route was a Bristol bus that seemed to have more power than its contemporise. The 14 served a cross country route from East Brighton to Hove. This particular bus must have been supercharged or something similar. I think the registration began with HAP…
Wilts & Dorset Motor Services 1952 Bristol KSW5G ECW L55R
Here is a view of HMR 59, a Bristol KSW5G with ECW bodywork. By the time of this view, the 1952 vehicle had been relegated to training duties. She’s seen in the yard of the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton, in March 1975. By this time, NBC amalgamations were in full swing, and the Wilts & Dorset fleet name was soon to disappear.
The view is of particular interest in that both fleet names appear, in Tilling style, on the side.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
01/08/13 – 18:24
I well remember the changeover to Hants and Dorset in the Salisbury area. A typical NBC waste of money. Everyone I knew always said they were travelling on “the Wilts”. Under different management we have W&D back but in the Salisbury area they call themselves “Reds” and in Poole/ Bournemouth they are known as “More”. Goodness knows what this is supposed to mean.
Paragon
03/08/13 – 14:28
I know what you mean about names. locally we have buses run by ‘Et Cetera’ in the Chobham area. It sounds like they were an afterthought! Whatever is wrong with good old-fashioned no-nonsense titles, that did what it said on the tin?
Grahame Arnold
04/08/13 – 06:47
Grahame. I think you’ll find that the outfit you are talking about is the illiterate ExCetera – from Croydon – who seem to be cleaning up in Surrey at the moment. Living in Ottershaw, I am often in and around Chobham but have not seen them in service there yet. Working regularly around Croydon, I have seen quite a lot of them – and in the intervening territory.
David Oldfield
04/08/13 – 14:52
David Thank you for the correction. I also live in Ottershaw (26 years now) so we may have crossed paths at some point. I have seen the ‘Ex Cetera’ brand name on the Chobham-Woking route but there are no doubt others, as you say.
Grahame Arnold
05/08/13 – 08:04
I was in Guildford yesterday and there was a Buses Excetera vehicle passing me. There also appears to be a Coaches Excetera arm as well, the website not only giving a London Phone contact number, but also a Milan one! they do seem to cover the Croydon Epsom, Guildford corridor.
Chris Hebbron
05/08/13 – 10:33
Chris. I believe the coaches arm came first but I also suspect that it was a pre-existing company known by another name.
David Oldfield
05/08/13 – 17:42
FWIW, I read on the web that the Excetera came out of Croydon Coaches, but when I rang the latter, I was told that the Excetera had come out of EPI Coaches, also of Croydon and London.
Chris Hebbron
06/08/13 – 06:11
As a Croydonian whose wife comes from Guildford, and who spent many formative years in the bus industry at Reigate with LT(CB&C) and LCBS, and at Aldershot with the “Tracco”, together with years of moonlighting with Tillingbourne and North Downs, I prefer to remember the bus network in those parts as it was before the devastating Black Death known as Deregulation. Nowadays, whole swathes of industry, not just transport, are besotted with ‘rebranding’, for which they surrender stupendous sums to shiny suited simpletons in the “marketing” sector, and, in return, receive offerings of extreme absurdity that appear to emanate from the ludicrous world of Edward Lear. Grahame asks why things cannot now do what they say on the tin. Sadly, and increasingly, they often do – the tin has very little in it. Public service is now so shaky that one concludes it must be a punishable offence.
Roger Cox
06/08/13 – 08:23
I worked in Guildford, early ’60’s, working at Bridge House (long gone), by the station. We nicknamed it Bridge House over the River Wey! I’ve visited the town periodically over the years (wife grew up in Woking). I also seem to recall Safeguard, too. Also, an LT presence, with GS’s and RLH’s at Onslow Street. Is it still there?
Chris Hebbron
06/08/13 – 08:27
Grahame. Saw one in Woking yesterday morning. Roger, don’t hold back. [No, I agree with you all the way.]
David Oldfield
06/08/13 – 11:49
Chris, Guildford town centre (many locals continue to be under the misapprehension that the place is a city by virtue of its cathedral) was “remodelled” in the ’70s around the river Wey crossing area with a brutish, concrete abomination of a one way system that, amongst other things, obliterated the fine Farnham Road bus station. Onslow Street bus station over a footbridge on the other side of the river disappeared too, and Guildford now has its decidedly basic Friary bus station adjacent (inevitably) to a big shopping complex of that name on the site of the old Friary Meux Brewery. Mercifully, the old Dennis building at the junction of Bridge Street and Onslow Street has survived the devastation. Progress? (Another thing – have you noticed that policemen look younger these days?)
Roger Cox
06/08/13 – 18:00
Roger, having spent many years involved with marketing from both sides of the fence, as it were, I can’t let your remarks on “shiny suited simpletons” pass without comment. Marketing – as opposed to sales, is a very tenuous art, perhaps even a dark art. Over nearly 50 years I’ve seen it evolve (or should that be dissolve) from a tool to solidly position products and services in the mind of the buyer to a cure all for poor management decisions, badly thought out products and lack of understanding of the needs of the potential market. Unfortunately water finds its own level and if you are running a marketing company, an ad agency or a design house and you find that poorly conceived ideas are just as much accepted and command just as much income as those which take real thought, testing and development, the tendency is to take the line of least resistance. Equally to blame as poor managers who are prepared to accept lazy or shoddy marketing are the purchasers of the products and services so presented. There seems to be a trend in these islands where, as long as the product is cheap enough, doesn’t take effort to access or is perceived to be offered by a large enough institution, people take a laissez faire attitude. Just look at some of the very poor, banal and often totally irrelevant product advertising on TV. What sort of management allows an ad with a strap line “92% of 121 women agree”. More to the point, what sort of end user accepts such rubbish and even makes a purchasing decision on such an ad? Unfortunately far too many. This attitude extends into far more important matters: banks, for instance who change their terms and conditions at will to their benefit yet, if you as the other party to the contract want to make changes, you are told you can’t. Then the same bank will run an ad supported marketing campaign praising its customer friendly attitude and encouraging you to discuss your finances “in branch” – YUK! So, don’t blame those who provide the tools for such mediocrity, they are just trying to make a living and responding to the feedback they get from those that buy their services. That attitude may be morally bankrupt but morality in business can be a sure fire way to bankruptcy. Rant over!
Phil Blinkhorn
06/08/13 – 18:02
Policemen may indeed look younger but this retired one didn’t when he looked in the mirror this morning! The country must be getting very dangerous as all the coppers go about in pairs. Some of them look so young I am tempted to say to them what the Colonel said to the young officer in Dad’s Army “Haven’t you got a comic to read boy?” Seriously though they do a difficult job and in my experience it has always been a case of Lions led by Donkeys which also sums up much of our dear old country today. Back to the posting. I do miss the sight and sound of Bristols trundling round the streets of Salisbury.
Paragon
07/08/13 – 06:55
Thx for the update, Roger. So another town has been partially spoiled in the name of progress. You mention Guildford being thought of as a city, but many thought it the county town, too. Maybe it is now, with Kingston being lost to Greater London! Damn Edward Heath for his county meddling! I do know that Woking, a pleasant enough town in the 1970’s, is really ruined these days! But I digress.
Chris Hebbron
07/08/13 – 06:56
Phil, I accept all your comments on the matter of marketing. Ultimately, the client has to bear the blame for accepting trashy publicity and absurdly exaggerated product description. I, too, have gazed upon television advertising in bewilderment as product promotion soars to stratospheric heights of improbability and idiocy. You will have a better knowledge than I of the costs of each individual form of media advertising, but, when a telly advert screeches on for several minutes at outrageous cost without giving a clue to its ultimate product USP, then one wonders what measure of expenditure control is exerted at the client company. Branding has become a particular nonsense, and one suspects that some of the smaller clients are being bamboozled by professional marketeers into accepting names that belong more in a Doctor Who script or a Tolkien novel than in the real world of product placement. Sententious twaddle infects almost everything we see around us nowadays. The guy across the road works for the local housing association, which has adopted the utterly meaningless moniker “Luminus” (serves ’em right that it is usually referred to as “Loony Mouse”). His van bears the utterly vacuous slogan, “Demonstrating a more excellent way of doing business”. Quite apart from the uselessness of this blurb – the van isn’t demonstrating anything – whoever thought that up knows nothing of English grammar; you cannot have varying degrees of excellence – it is an absolute. Yet we see this sort of gibberish in advertising all around us now. End of my rant. I must press a cold flannel to my forehead. I must sound like King Lear screaming into the face of the storm.
Roger Cox
07/08/13 – 08:27
Kingston is still the County Town following the failure to decamp to Woking a year or two back. Despite the abomination that is the “Friary area”, Guildford is still a “nice town” in other parts of the centre – that cannot be said of Woking which has an even worse “bus station” (the road outside the railway station). As a pilcock, sorry pillar, of the Church of England, for many years I was under the illusion that a Cathedral imposed city status on a town. I was only disabused of this quite recently. There is at least one plaque on Guildford High Street extolling the virtues of the City of Guildford. Well, it would be better than some recently ennobled towns!
David Oldfield
07/08/13 – 13:07
Roger, in explaining the evolution and descent of much of marketing into mediocrity I failed to mention that, like you, I rage against such rubbish. Another nonsense, foisted on us “for our protection”, is the Data Protection Act. Example: talking on the phone to a UK government department this week I told the person on the phone at the start of the conversation that, after speaking to me, my wife had a query and I would pass the phone to her. During both conversations it must have become evident we were in the same room, that we have been married 42 years and that were exchanging comments to check information asked of both of us. My wife then asked a particular question which would have involved the person on the phone divulging information about me. This was 20 minutes into the call. She had to pass the phone to me so I could give permission for the question to be answered. Total b****y nonsense. Back to buses. The rear doors on the KSW, whilst no doubt a welcome addition for conductor and passengers, spoil the look of the vehicle. The width of the short bay and the jack knife doors are too similar making the rear of the lower deck look unbalanced compared to the rest of the well proportioned design.
Phil Blinkhorn
07/08/13 – 13:08
Well, this view has invited some interesting comments, has it not!!!!!! How a County Town can be other than in it’s ‘home’ County is beyond me. One of the early forms of Local Government Reorganisation – one of the rejected ones – was suggesting that Lancaster should leave Lancashire and go into Westmorland! County Town isn’t always the administrative centre of the County Council, of course – Appleby was the County town of Westmorland, but Kendal was the Admin centre. At least they are/were in the same County! Blackburn is another Cathedral town, but it isn’t a “City”. I’m not too sure about Arundel . . . Chelmsford is another place that has long been considered a City – the local football club even has that name – but it was ‘elevated’ last year as part of the Golden Jubilee.
Pete Davies
07/08/13 – 14:13
I like the way it says ‘This is a Driver Training Bus…..’ on the side, and on the front it shows ‘Training Vehicle’. It always rankled me when Yorkshire Rider boldly proclaimed our training buses to be Driver Training Units. Units ? They weren’t learning to drive a Unit – it was a bus for goodness sake ! They didn’t change their name to FirstUnit.
John Stringer
07/08/13 – 15:30
Don’t give Wirst Bus ideas, John. Arundel is different, Pete – it’s a Roman Catholic Cathedral and never in the same mix of cathedral/city arguments.
David Oldfield
07/08/13 – 15:30
Many of these comments remind me of my last years before retirement. For seventeen years I was a driver with one of the major supermarket chains, for the last seven of those I was a DSA registered HGV driving instructor/assessor, and as such I was regarded as management. All the instructors at the 20 odd depots used to say that there are two phrases that cover everything from incompetence to downright stupidity, they were “Company policy” and “Operational requirements”
Ronnie Hoye
07/08/13 – 17:24
The County Hall for Surrey is still in Kingston, though that town is now within a London Borough, having been annexed by the GLC in 1965. I think that this situation is unique, unless, of course, someone on the OBP knows different (and I bet that proves to be the case). It does seem remarkable that Surrey CC has been unable to find suitable premises for relocation in 48 years.
Roger Cox
08/08/13 – 07:27
It may be unique at county level, Roger, but certainly not at lower levels. The offices of North East Derbyshire District Council are within the Borough of Chesterfield, and when I lived in Newport in 1969 I was surprised to find the offices of Magor and St Mellons Rural(?) District Council there. In both these cases, however, the offices are/were geographically central to the strangely-shaped administrative area, despite being located outside it!
Peter Williamson
10/08/13 – 06:01
Two examples of ‘market-speak’ that irritate are ‘logistics’ and ‘solutions’. Haven’t the foggiest idea what either looks like, but there seem to be increasing numbers of trucks (logistics) and vans (solutions) carrying such items nationally. Presumably solutions are smaller or lighter than logistics. Whatever happened to the good old no nonsense word ‘haulage?’ As we know, in the bus and coach industry much heritage has been lost with the demise of such appendages as Traction, Automobile, Road Car, Motor Services, Omnibus etc. These titles of character and distinction have sadly been brushed aside in favour of the bland term ‘Travel’, or such corporate regional suffixes as ‘SouthEast’ and ‘The Shires’. Wonder how long it will be before a certain design and marketing consultancy will have us believe that bus operators are no longer bus operators, but actually ‘providers of local mass travel solutions’.
Brendan Smith
10/08/13 – 09:24
The word you need Brendan is “transit”. I’m sure Google used to use this on their travel directions, but it now says “Public Transport” presumably because people thought that was a route for white vans seeking logistics solutions. Logistics means we have GPS and know which layby you’re holed up in: solutions means we go very fast so the thing you forgot to send will still arrive.
Joe
10/08/13 – 18:33
In a similar vein, have you noticed that new roads are always named “Way” – never road, street, lane, avenue, drive, crescent or (a special Nottingham favourite this) Boulevard.
Stephen Ford
10/08/13 – 18:34
On the topic of logistics, the use of the word by transport companies is legitimate where you are dealing with certain types of haulage. Without getting too technical or digressing too far, logistics is the art or science (a bit of both really) of ensuring goods, equipment or personnel arrive where they are required, only when required and are fit to be used/take up their role on arrival. Originally a military concept, it has been applied to the shipment of critical items around the world using multi-modal transport, often through specialised hubs and can see an item in the course of its journey being transported by road air and water. There are specialists in areas from Formula One to oil rig equipment but the most well known true logistics companies are FedEx, DHL, UPS and TNT who, apart from transporting packages have worldwide contracts to move sensitive equipment and data for major corporations and governments in a way that ordinary post and parcel handling would not offer. Industry’s demand for continual production without the need to hold large stocks of components spawned the idea of “Just In Time Delivery” which created the need for much of the logistical planning that goes into haulage today. Even the delivery of greengrocery to your local supermarket from the point of origin in, say, Kenya or the Caribbean in a state where it is fresh, has a reasonable shelf life and can be consumed days after purchase, is far more complex today than just haulage from point A to point B.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/08/13 – 18:35
Once upon a time, when the universe was young, and a long lost language called English was spoken in the land, the term ‘logistics’ meant either a branch of mathematics, or the planned organisation of troops, armaments, supplies and transport for an advancing or retreating army. Transport, or as it is now seemingly forever to be known, ‘transportation’, is just one element in the complex package that constitutes logistics. The people that carry goods in vehicles from A to B are simply hauliers, whatever nonsense they choose to display on their lorries (though even these things are now to be called ‘trucks’). Taking up Brendan’s point, I think that the solution for mass travel must surely be the water on which a passenger carrying ferry or canal barge floats. In a world blighted by pretentious marketing piffle, the solution that we all need is a return to the language of Shakespeare and Doctor Johnson. I am not holding my breath.
Roger Cox
11/08/13 – 06:46
I always thought that TNT meant Tomorrow Not Today.
Paragon
12/08/13 – 19:23
Thanks Joe, I think you are right about transit – it flows much better than travel in the ‘strapline’ (now there’s another new word to conjure with!). Thank you too Phil for your comments as to the true meaning of logistics. As you state, the modern art of ‘just in time delivery’ is much more involved than traditional haulage, and there does appear to be a big difference between the two. However, the waters are muddied by the pretensions of some operators whose vehicles carry the ‘logistics’ title, when they should really be proudly displaying the word ‘haulage’ instead.
Brendan Smith
13/08/13 – 06:19
Brendan, you are correct about the pretensions of some hauliers. Strap line is hardly new. Originating in newspapers it describes a secondary headline or caption and Dickens, as a newspaper editor, certainly knew the term. It was adopted by the advertising industry in the early part of the 20th century.
Phil Blinkhorn
13/08/13 – 06:20
Phil, going back to your comment about the KSW’s platform doors, I think ECW may have been dabbling with improving the design at some point. Early KS/KSWs originally had the quarter bay ahead of the entrance panelled over, but on later models the quarter bay was glazed. In either case, with an open platform the design looked balanced as you say. However, with platform doors fitted and closed, if the bay was panelled, a ‘thick pillar’ effect resulted between the fourth bay and the first door glass. If the quarter bay was glazed, the result was the ‘three window’ effect you describe. The same thing affected the LD Lodekka when fitted with platform doors. However, both it must be admitted were still very handsome designs. In order to ensure perfect nearside balance on either model, I suppose the only answer would be to leave the platform doors open at all times!
Brendan Smith
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/08/13 – 14:35
A piece of totally useless trivia for you, Stephen, and nothing what so ever to do with the original subject. It would take far too long to list them all, but within historical boudaries of the City of London, you will find Squares and Alley’s, names ending in Lane – Side – Gate – Wall – Street Etc, and single words such as Barbican – Eastcheap – Poultry, but no ‘Roads’. However, with the boundary changes of 1994, part of Goswell Road in Islington became EC1 so technically it is now part part of the City, but it is not within The Square Mile.
Ronnie Hoye
16/08/13 – 18:31
Thanks Ronnie – I do totally useless trivia !
Stephen Ford
21/08/13 – 06:33
A London EC post code does not indicate that the place is in the City. Fifty odd years ago when I was at school there Goswell Road and nearby City Road had EC1 postal addresses. Incidentally the Tower of London has an EC3 post code but is not in the City.
Wilts & Dorset Motor Services 1952 Bristol KSW5G ECW L27/28R
HWV 294 is a Bristol KSW5G dating from 1952 [like the photographer] and has been fully restored by Roger Burdett internally, externally and mechanically. It will be at various rallies in 2014. It has a L27/28R ECW body and was new to Wilts and Dorset as their 365. If anyone has more information or dates as to it use between it’s withdrawal and now please do not hesitate to leave a comment. The restoration was completed in March 2014.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
29/04/14 – 10:17
Odd how with the passage of time you learn to see things differently. As a young enthusiast 50-odd years ago, on the lookout for surviving prewar stuff and always drawn to fleets where scarcely any two vehicles were alike (the storeman’s nightmare) I used to think: “Oh, no! Not another Bristol! Can’t we have a bit of variety?” In my short spell at Thames Valley I came to realise that the KSW was one of the great classics of all time, which fully deserved its ubiquity, so many thanks to Roger Burdett for this fine restoration. Looking forward to a ride! Will she be at Warminster? Keep us posted, Roger!
Ian Thompson
29/04/14 – 13:25
I think I would agree, Ian. The KSW was a classic – but I preferred the less common highbridge version; Lincolnshire and United in particular. This was also the same body as Sheffield’s B & C fleet PD2s. I was ambivalent about the tin fronts but erred on the side of exposed radiators. A KSW against a Sheffield PD2? The exposed radiator KSW any time.
David Oldfield
30/04/14 – 07:28
It was meant to make it’s first public appearance at The Quorn Rally last Saturday. I was one of those on board when it left Roger’s place to pick up others at Birmingham International, and then onto the M42 where the front offside tyre went before you can say I like Bristols. We had to wait for a following BMMO S15 to come to the rescue and Roger had to wait with the bus for a recovery vehicle. He hopes to have everything sorted so that it appears at the Taunton Rally on May 11th.
Ken Jones
30/04/14 – 07:29
Thanks for pointing out the ECW-bodied PD2s to me, David. I was completely unaware of them! Very handsome machines. If only one had survived… Forgot in my previous comment to thank Ken for these fine shots—especially the interior one.
Ian Thompson
30/04/14 – 18:48
Two superb pictures of a gloriously restored classic vehicle – takes me back happily to 1951, when four such vehicles positively stunned us all with admiration when West Yorkshire RCC treated us to the allocation at “Lil’ old Ilkley depot.” 806 – 809, later becoming DBW 1 – 4, and returning briefly to ECW to be retrofitted with platform doors – long before “retrofitted” became an “in” word. Now Boris, why didn’t you order a few hundred of these eh ????????.
Chris Youhill
02/05/14 – 07:42
Roger has found a gash in the tyre, has sorted it and is back on track for it to appear in Somerset for the Taunton Rally
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1951 Bristol KSW6B ECW L27/28R
KEL 728 is a Bristol KSW6B new to Hants & Dorset in 1951. The ECW body was of the L55R variety when new. After withdrawal from passenger duty in 1969, it became one of the driver training fleet, with various alterations including the fitting of a sliding door and the replacement of most seats by concrete blocks. This was to simulate ‘loaded’ condition. We see it still in Tilling green and cream but with NBC fleetname in Grosvenor Square during the lunch break one day in August 1975.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
24/05/16 – 07:05
Grosvenor Square where, Pete?
Chris Hebbron
24/05/16 – 09:01
Southampton! Shame cant see the registration of the coach behind. Wondered if it was H and D or Shamrock and Rambler.
David Rawsthorn
25/05/16 – 06:18
It was one of the ORU …G group, so H&D, but don’t ask me which one of the three!
Pete Davies
26/05/16 – 18:40
Living in Southampton as a schoolboy in the fifties, the Bristol engined Ks were familiar and friendly vehicles in the area. The KSW like 1285 was one of my favourite marques. The extra width, the style and finish of the interior trim had an edge (in my view) over other contemporary buses and maintained a brighter environment when compared to its successor, the Lodekka. This vehicle was the first of the lowbridge KSWs delivered to H & D and all fourteen were allocated for the bulk of their lives to Southampton or Fareham depots. In the final years most migrated to Bournemouth and Poole, where they still maintained an elegant presence in the ‘Pines Territory’. My final journey on this type was on 1294 in November 1970 on a service from Bournemouth to Wimborne. Happy days!
Peter Elliott
29/05/16 – 05:47
About 30 years ago a letter appeared in Buses Illustrated commiserating with the hapless drivers of Bristols and comparing their lot with that of those lucky folk who drove London buses. The writer suggested that you don’t so much drive a Bristol as wrestle with it and finish your shift in utter exhaustion. Well, he can never have driven a KSW, which has light, positive, bullet-straight steering, a light clutch, good progressive brakes, a gearbox less forgiving than some but still easy to get used to, a roomy cab with a good step and a firm handle to pull yourself up with, good visibility, reasonable level of engine noise, good stability… There must be something I’ve forgotten… As a teenage enthusiast I found the ubiquitous KSWs and LDs uninteresting but a short spell of driving for Thames Valley in 1968 taught me what superbly designed vehicles they were. What an indignity for KEL 728, having to carry concrete blocks around!
Ian Thompson
30/05/16 – 05:48
For my last 12 weeks RAF National Service (Jan-Mar 1959), I was posted to RAF Calshot, my mother living in Southsea. On Mondays, I’d take a trolleybus to Hilsea, a Southdown 45A which terminated at Fareham Bus Station, then the 77 H&D Bristol to Warsash service, then getting an air-sea rescue launch over Southampton Water to Calshot. The Bristol would have been in the yard all night and freezing cold, with frost inside the front windows needing to be scraped off! Arrival at our Calshot office necessitated laying the free-standing coke stove and getting it going before work started. It was noon before I’d really warmed up! The return journey on Fridays usually involved the Southdown 45 route which went all the way from Warsash to Southsea. So Fareham to Warsash was a shared route, with Southdown at its Westerly extremity at Warsash and Fareham being H&D’s Easterly extremity. Southdown usually put on PD2’s or Guy Arabs, but I seem to recall one Queen Mary, overkill for the route. But H&D had these KSW’s usually, which seemed quite civilised as I recall. It’s fair to say that these dozen trips on a Bristol bus constitute about a quarter of all rides I’ve ever taken on a Bristol in normal service!
Chris Hebbron
30/05/16 – 16:53
Fareham was not quite the easterly extremity of Hants & Dorset, Chris. During the three years I spent at Alverstoke (1949-52) my mother and I sometimes used to catch the Hants & Dorset service from Gosport (marginally farther east) to Lee-on-Solent or Tichfield and Southampton. The buses were Bristol K types back then, of course, probably K5Gs.
Roger Cox
30/05/16 – 16:54
As a very happy conductor and driver with Samuel Ledgard at Otley and Ilkley depots I regularly regretted that I would never drive a Bristol vehicle. However one morning I had to pinch myself as I reported to the garage to operate the 0807 duplicate from Otley to Leeds and back. Parked near the bus station with “Harrogate via Otley” on the destination blind was K6B KHY 746 (ex Bristol) – yes, it had suffered a front wheel puncture a few minutes earlier and had been replaced by one of our Otley vehicles. With fingers crossed I approached the output man for my bus to be told “You’ll have to take that 746 outside.” Well, what an utter delight the vehicle was in every way – the gears were like silk, the brakes smooth and superb, visibility great, and the Bristol AVW engine enabled it to ascend the two mile long A660 in fine style. When we got to Leeds the disgruntled and totally disinterested young conductor came to the cab and said “I don’t know what you’re getting excited about, its only a b***** bus.” So naturally I fully agree with everything that Ian Thompson says in favour of the model even though “mine” was slightly earlier and “thinner” – the pedigree was the same !!
Chris Youhill
31/05/16 – 06:24
Geography and popular opinions of places’ locations do contradict each other sometimes. Chris Hebbron comments on his trips to RAF Calshot. One might think that, being on the western side of Southampton Water, it is west of Southampton. Certainly, buses head westwards out of Southampton towards Totton, Marchwood, Hythe, Fawley and Calshot, but Calshot Castle is actually due south of the mouth of the Hamble, east of Southampton. Roger Cox mentions his time at Alverstoke which, although many of the present residents refuse to acknowledge it, is actually in Gosport and east of Fareham. A strange situation applies at Fareham, which used to have two signal boxes. ‘East box’, being nearer to Waterloo on the original line through Basingstoke and Winchester, was actually WEST of ‘West box’ which was further away from Waterloo. I have some American Railroad DVDs in my collection, with maps. The commentary mentions ‘compass west’ which is the actual direction of travel, and ‘timetable west’ which is the nominal direction. What fun!
Pete Davies
31/05/16 – 06:24
One summer in the mid to late ‘sixties I remember my Dad, a West Yorkshire driver, saying that he had performed a duplicate on the 84 Harrogate-York-Scarborough service. His trusty steed was an ‘SBW’ (Bristol LWL6B/ECW B39R) and I’d assumed he would have been disappointed at the prospect of having to drive such an ‘old’ bus, heading up towards it’s retirement, over such a distance. (What shameful thoughts Brendan, even for a early teenager!). Well Dad said much the same as Ian and Chris (Y) have done and relished the experience. I recall him saying how light the steering and clutch were, and that the gearbox combined with the Bristol AVW engine worked a treat. All in all an enjoyable day out by the sound of it. Just wish I’d been along for the ride.
Brendan Smith
31/05/16 – 09:03
Brendan – I can well appreciate your Dad’s delight with the SBW. Although as an Ilkley depot conductor I never drove one I consider the SBWs to be the very finest examples of the wonderful ECW postwar “L” variants. Not only were they supremely handsome and “tidy”, but within there could never have been anything finer – wide gangways, useful luggage racks, excellent stairs and sliding doors, good visibility, and easy passenger flow even with standing customers – that barmy over the top trendy term means passengers, customers patronise shops !! At Ilkley we had EB2/3 (31 seat luxury), SGL 14 (slim) and SBW 17/26/33.
Chris Youhill
01/06/16 – 06:53
Agreed Chris Y! A colleague used to define the difference this way (in connection with the railway industry): Passengers travel; Customers merely pay.
Stephen Ford
02/06/16 – 06:50
Chris and Stephen, bus drivers may be told by their employers to see passengers as ‘customers’ nowadays in order to promote real ‘customer service’. However, how many times do we see these same ‘customers’ treated with disdain, not by the drivers, but by the employers who cover the windows with Contravision, or vinyl promotional stickers and overlays, so that the allegedly all-important ‘customers’ cannot see out? ‘First still seems to be Worst’ in this regard, but sadly there are others out there. Thomas Tilling will be turning in his grave – if not already spinning like a starter motor.
Brendan Smith
04/06/16 – 06:46
Absolutely spot on Brendan. As is widely known, I ‘m in total despair these days at all the marketing, route branding, swooping “playschool” liveries etc – 99% plus of which goes right over the heads of the travelling public or simply understandably confuses them, and costs unimaginable amounts of money When will operators realise that all the Public want is a clean smart bus at the right time at a sensible fare. Now, where did I put that tin helmet?? I’m sure I got it back from refurbishment not long ago !!
Chris Youhill
04/06/16 – 06:47
Thx, Roger, for making me aware of back-door H&D route to Gosport. I confess that on the few times I used to go over to Gosport, I never saw saw an H&D bus/bus stop to raise my curiosity!
Chris Hebbron
05/06/16 – 07:10
Hants & Dorset did have a presence in Gosport, though. On the occasions when I travelled across the water (or took the long way round via Fareham), there was often an H&D Bristol K lurking against a wall behind the Provincial line up at the bus stands. I don’t recall if it displayed any route number or destination, but my impression at the time was that it was parked up for later use. As the Provincial fleet had my stronger interest, I didn’t take so much notice of it! I don’t know whether when it came to service, it drew up on one of the Provincial stands, or whether it went somewhere else to begin it’s journey.
Michael Hampton
07/06/16 – 07:01
H&D ran several services to Gosport. The 70 and 93 ran from Southampton, each one hourly. The 70 was converted to OPO and became limited stop as X70 around the time the last REs (XLJ725/6K) were delivered. As far as I recall there were other local services, including an indirect service from Fareham.
Nigel Frampton
08/06/16 – 06:06
The construction for an embryonic new resort (intended to rival Bournemouth) given the supposedly prestigious name of Lee-on-the-Solent began in 1885 and proceeded apace. A pier was completed in 1888 and a light railway line (maximum permitted speed – 25 mph) was built in 1894 to connect with the Gosport/Stokes Bay main line at Fort Brockhurst on the western fringe of Gosport. In 1910 Provincial Tramways began operating connecting services with its tram operations from Bury Cross and Brockhurst into Lee, but these stopped during the First World War. (The railway services to Stokes Bay and the Isle of Wight also ceased in 1915, never to resume). The overambitious original scheme for Lee-on-the-Solent was never realised and public transport revenues on bus and rail services were poor. Provincial lost interest in Lee as a traffic objective and the railway, too, entered a period of terminal decline. It was Hants & Dorset who stepped in with viable bus links through Lee to Gosport and Southampton, and I understand that these still exist, though the vehicles when I last travelled on the route were attired in the absurd Barbie apparel.
Roger Cox
09/06/16 – 16:56
Hants & Dorset had an outstation at Gosport – in the early post-war period at Little Beach Road, and from the mid 1950s until early 1970s in Harbour Road (just off the A32 Mumby Road, north of the High Street), where there was a small waiting room as well as parking space. There were ‘local’ services to Hill Head, Lee-on-Solent, Heathfield and HMS Aerial, together with Gosport to Fareham via Rowner (79) and 3 routes from Gosport to Southampton 70 and 93 (both via Lee-on-Solent and Bursledon) and 76 (via Fareham and Botley). Hants and Doret had acquired the operations of independent, Tutt, in 1924 to which were others were – which formed the basis of the H&D services in the Gosport area.
Peter Delaney
18/06/16 – 06:08
Here is a picture of another KSW6B of similar vintage to KEL 728, but operated by the neighbouring company of Thames Valley. GJB 275, fleet no. 637, was also a 1951 vehicle, but differed in being equipped with a “coach” CL27/26RD body with platform doors. Thames Valley had nine of these buses for the Reading-London service “B”, though, because the route was covered by Green Line 704 and 705 between London and Slough, pick up and set down restrictions applied over that section. All the early production KSWs had either the Gardner 5LW or the alternative Bristol AVW of 8.1 litres supposedly developing the magic figure of 100 bhp that was often optimistically claimed by manufacturers in the early post war period – Leyland, Crossley and Daimler were others, together with Dennis, though the Guildford claim was accurate. The AVW was a basically sound dry liner engine manufactured also in horizontal form, unlike the troublesome wet liner BVW 8.9 litre design that succeeded it. The KSW6G did not become available until 1952 with the “K” version of the 6LW yielding a genuine 112 bhp. Were there initially some behind the scenes pressures on Tilling Group companies to accept the Bristol six cylinder engine to reduce production costs and free the manufacturer to some extent from the constraints of Gardner supplies? The Thames Valley “coach” KSWs ran on the “B” service for many years, latterly as relief vehicles, and GJB 275 is pictured in Victoria Coach Station on such duties in the summer of 1960. One wonders how a lowbridge bus of this type would be received by the “discerning customers” on such a lengthy route today, though I, for one, would jump at the opportunity.
Roger Cox
21/12/16 – 06:32
I remember taking a bus similar to this model from Romsey to Southampton on Route number 63. In the late 1960s, all the buses that ran to and from Romsey used to terminate or start their routes actually from Romsey Town Centre, this was before the Romsey bus station was even built, the sight formally having been occupied by the old Jam factory. I can remember that there were several routes operated by Hants and Dorset, and one of these was shared with Wilts and Dorset. Whilst single decker’s ran the routs 60 Braishfield to Southampton ( via Romsey, Ower, Totton, Millbrook. ) Route 66 Romsey to Winchester and then back and then ran Romsey to Salisbury via West Wellow, Shootash. This service was the shared route as you either got a Hants & Dorset or Wilts & Dorset bus in either direction. The 65 went to Eastleigh via North Badesley, and the original Castle Lane. The 65 was run by both single and double deck vehicles. The number 61, 62, 63 all ran Romsey to Southampton. One via Upton Crescent Rownhams and Nursling, Shirley and Southampton. 62 Romsey to North Baddesley Rownhams Lane, Horns Inn Nursling, Shirley, Southampton and the 63 Romsey North Baddesley, Chilworth, Inner Avenue, thence into Southampton. The 64 route ran Shootash and also served a number of the local villages, this was always a single deck service. Hants and Dorset and Wilts and Dorset drivers were some real characters, very friendly and helpful. I remember two particular drivers who did long service on some of these routes. Geoff Whitfield being one of these people. There was also a older chap called Stan. Didn’t ever know his last name, and it wasn’t Butler! but he was a character that made travelling on these routes a pleasure, and a lot of fun. Pity we don’t have these routes now.
United Automobile Services 1954 Bristol KSW6B ECW H32/28R
In this shot you can certainly see the difference in height between this highbridge KS and the height of the Lodekka both of which had the centre isle seating plan. The KS series succeeded the K series in 1950 when body length was increased from 26ft to 27ft, the extra foot was split equally between the bonnet length and the saloon. The reason for the extra 6in on the bonnet length was so the Gardner 6LW 8.4 litre diesel engine could be fitted without any modification being needed which was the case with the K series. Main production did not last very long as in 1953 the Lodekka went into production but I have read that the last KS was actually delivered in 1957. The “W” in the coding stood for wide meaning the body width was 8ft instead of 7ft 6in, there seems to be two schools of thought what the “S” stood for: (a) “Short” as if Bristol knew that a longer chassis would be allowed a few years later and “L” would be used to differentiate. (b) “Standard” being that the bonnet was of a standard length to allow installation of all engine variants. There is also the belief that all of the KS series were bodied by ECW (Eastern Coach Works).
I had been under the impression, that the “S” stood for “stretched” to 27′ Source: “The Pocket Encyclopaedia of Buses & Trolleybuses since 1945”, London, Blandford Press, 1968 p.115
David Cape
I was on a KSW at a rally today and overheard an apparently knowledgeable chap saying that the S indicated short, as opposed to KL which was going to be a 30-foot export model until Bristol’s government lords and masters prevented them from building for export at all. However, the apparently knowledgeable chap thought we were on a KS, not a KSW, so the usual pinch of salt applies.
Peter Williamson
The Bristol KS was introduced following an increase in permitted length for double deckers from 26ft to 27ft in mid-1950. Later that year, the maximum permitted width for all buses was increased from 7ft-6ins to 8ft. and Bristol responded with the KSW. (The ‘S’ apparently stood for ‘Standard’ or ‘Short’ length chassis, with the ‘W’ predictably denoting ‘Wide’). At that time the bus industry had hoped for an increase in length to 30ft for all buses, but in the event this was limited to single deckers. Bristol had envisaged extending the K type to 30ft long (KL/KLW) but this did not materialise as a result. When legislation did allow for 30ft double deckers in 1956, the Lodekka was in its ascendancy and so no KL/KLWs were built. ECW designed a 4-bay body for the KS-series and these could also be identified by the stepped panel below the windscreen. Although ECW bodied most of the KS-series chassis, Rotherham Corporation received six KS6Bs in 1950, fitted with East Lancashire bodies built in Bridlington. Rotherham was the only operator outside the Tilling Group to operate the KS as far as I am aware – these being ordered before the cut-off point following nationalisation of Bristol and ECW. Bristol/ECW were not allowed to supply vehicles to concerns outside the British Transport Commission, following nationalisation by the Labour government in 1948. The ban was to appease the Conservative opposition and private sector manufacturers, and to prevent what they claimed would be unfair competition. (A clause was included to this effect in the 1947 Transport Act as a result). Restrictions on ECW’s output were also imposed, even within the BTC empire itself. Had this not been the case maybe ECW would have bodied some of London’s RTs. The last KS (a KS6G) was delivered to Brighton, Hove and District in 1957, and the last KSW (a KSW6G) was delivered to Bristol Omnibus Company the same year.
Brendan Smith
Some 7ft 6in KS chassis received 8ft wide KSW bodies. Eastern Counties had quite a few, and a former ECOC driver reckoned in conversation that they needed to be driven rather gently when heavily laden, as they tended to lean alarmingly on bends.
Stephen Ford
Fascinating stuff indeed Brendan and I seem to recall that, nearer home, West Yorkshire had a few L and K type chassis with 8ft wide bodies. In my view this is a very dubious practice especially with lowbridge double deckers which are prone to “nearside leaning” at the best of times.
Chris Youhill
I tend to agree with you Chris. Fitting bodies six inches wider than originally intended for the chassis does not sound unreasonable in theory. However, in practice as you say it would lead to increased body roll when cornering. You’re comment about “nearside leaning” with lowbridge buses was interesting, and something I’d not previously given much thought to. To the uninitiated it must have been quite entertaining going around a tight right-hander at times, and things would no doubt liven up even more as the leaf springs became tired with age!
Brendan Smith
The last ‘K’ type Chassis built was indeed delivered in 1957. It was actually a ‘KS6G’ supplied to the ‘Brighton Hove & District Omnibus Company’ fleet number 500 and registered ‘MPM 500’. The reason for the reversion to 7’6″ Bodies was for two way operation in the narrow St. James’s Street in the heart of Kemptown, Brighton. St. James’s Street is nowadays one-way (eastbound). BH & D was one of the last former Tilling companies to take the ‘Lodekka’ which it did so in 1959, taking eight ‘LDS6B’ the fore-runner of the ‘FS’ Chassis with the recently introduced Bristol BVW Engine.
John
12/04/14 – 08:12
1 National Travel, Manchester United Driver from Scarborough who had purchased/preserved a 1930’s (?) Bristol half cab which he wanted to be transported in at his funeral! Memory is a bit vague as to whether the bus was rebodied etc. but I think it was a JOG type Bristol. Anyone got any ideas?
The United driver that Pete Bradshaw is thinking of was Charlie Bullock who owned a 1940 K5G, FHN 923, which have been converted to a recovery truck. His final journey to Scarborough crematorium in August 2012 at the age of 97 was indeed made on that vehicle.
OBP has yet to include a picture of a post war Bristol K type operating in the Bristol fleet, so here is one. This shows KSW6B, SHW 409, No. C8239, which was supplied in 1954 to the then Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company, which was renamed Bristol Omnibus in May 1957. This bus seems to have spent its entire operating career in Bristol city until withdrawal in May 1971 when it went to the dealer Norths of Sherburn-in-Elmet for scrap. In the picture, taken in July 1970, less than a year before withdrawal, the driver has opened his cab door whilst the vehicle is in motion. One can only conjecture why he has done so.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
05/09/22 – 07:08
Oh joy! The standard Bristol city bus for years, including a final sanction in 1957. The Bristol engine was specified for most of the city fleet, perhaps to keep the City Council, part owners, on side with a made-here product. Even when the country fleet were taking KSWs with doors and heaters, the city didn’t get the luxury of heaters! This photo looks to be taken of the bus turning from the Centre into Baldwin Street with Thorntons chocolate shop on the corner of Clare Street in the background. I can only think the door flew open after a change-over in the Centre and had not caught properly, but that seems unlikely! The bus would have had the Bristol City arms as the fleet name when delivered, followed by the upper case BRISTOL before coming to the historic Bristol scroll. The destination box would have been single piece 18 inch deep from new in which the roller destination blinds came in quick-change cassettes, to keep the blinds reasonably short containing only destinations for a small group of routes. I always thought that the choice of Bristol Omnibus Company was a very poor marketing name. Nobody even then spoke about omnibuses and having BRISTOL on the side when operating in and out of Cheltenham, Hereford, Swindon et al seemed very inappropriate! At least the scroll had a bit of style about it.
Geoff Pullin
08/09/22 – 06:26
Two things spring to mind. 1970, so now well into the NBC Era, but thankfully not in NBC Corporate livery. With that in mind, immaculately presented for a vehicle that was less than a year away from withdrawal.
Ronnie Hoye
09/09/22 – 05:44
Ronnie – the NBC corporate liveries, poppy red, leaf green and white, were introduced during 1972.
