…of vehicles pre-1970
This was one of the first buses to appear on this website and I did not research into it as well as I could of done. So I have rewritten and reposted it. | Click here to see the repost. |
These nice looking centre entrance buses did the Scarborough Sea Front Service from The Corner Cafe in the North Bay to The Spa in the South Bay. I think they were actually rebodied half cab single deckers as NHN 128. I think the bodies were mid 50s and the chassis were from the 30s but they had an easy life on the Sea Front Service. If you know different please put me right any info appreciated.
Update
I have found out that the body was built in 1957 and was a B39C and it was a rebuild on an old 1946/7 chassis. there is a photo here of a very sad view of 992 CHN.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
These fine buses were originally built in 1946/7 as Bristol L5Gs. They were lengthened to 30ft (thus becoming LL5G) and rebodied by ECW in 1957, with a centre entrance version of the old ‘Queen Mary’ style of coach body last produced in 1952. They were fitted with 39 bus seats, and I believe replaced pre-war Leyland Tigers on the Scarborough sea front service.
They were as you say, nice looking vehicles and they must have come as a pleasant surprise to locals and tourists alike, as the buses simply exuded charm and more than a hint of class. It is amazing to think that those curvaceous bodies were all hand built by craftsmen. Their elegance leaves many modern vehicle designs in the shade. How did they manage without computer-aided design and mass-production techniques? Very well indeed by the looks of it!
Brendan Smith
26/08/11 – 07:27
During the 1950’s and early 1960’s our family summer holidays were mostly in Scarborough, staying in the North Bay. Never mind roundabouts, donkey rides and amusement arcades, the highlight of my holiday would be being taken for a ride from Corner Cafe to Aquarium Top and back on one of these special Bristols. As a child, for a few years my ultimate ambition in life was to move to Scarborough and drive these buses on the 109 Seafront Service.
The reality would probably have been very different, and I suspect that though a steady job, it could have been rather tedious. But I was a child.
It was very sad when one day a few years later whilst out cycling, I called at Jackson’s scrapyard in Bradford and viewed with dismay the dismembered remains of one of these splendid machines in the blue livery of Clugston’s, the contractor. I was surprised to see that behind the ‘frowning’ front grille panel there was still the complete original Bristol L radiator shell and grille and bonnet.
It’s an old cliche I know, but if only one had survived into preservation……..
John Stringer
21/03/13 – 06:36
Talking of sad pictures of United’s special sea front Bristol L Types, here is 996 CHN, obviously at the end of its days in the junk yard in Northumberland. I think this one ended its days with Bedlington and District. Evidently the only thing wanted from this was its engine.
David Rhodes
22/03/13 – 17:00
After a period of no open toppers in Scarborough they were reintroduced by United using Bristol VRS. In the years following de-regulation several companies have run on the route East Yorkshire have used Routemasters Shoreline Suncruisers currently use Metrobuses in the eighties Applebys used a motley collection of older types including an ex Bristol Lodekka and ex Chester Fleetlines a pair of Southend Fleetlines a Park Royal bodied Fleetline from Sheffield and an ex Plymouth Atlantean Scarboro & District (East Yorks) use Alexander bodies Scanias currently
Chris Hough
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Here’s a nice old one, probable one of the oldest buses in my collection.
I obviously didn’t take this picture as the bus was withdrawn in 1957 I did not start taking bus photos till 1965.
This bus has a center entrance, can somebody tell me what advantage there was in having a center entrance. They would have to lose two pairs of seats to make way for the entrance but then they could put in a 5 seat bench seat at the back of the bus so they gain one seat. But if the only gain is one seat was it worth it. Another query I have which maybe you can help me with is what is the purpose of the box under the front window on the opposite side to the cab it looks as if it contains oil could it be an automatic oiling system or something.
A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.
The box on the nearside, below the saloon window in an “Autovac” they were used on early Leyland and Bristol half cabs. They were to do with the braking system I believe.
Paul Ellender
Re the “Autovac” query this is a form of fuel supply, the square tank holding a reservoir of fuel drawn up from the main tank by vacuum.
Trevor Haigh
Many vehicles in this area were of the centre entrance configuration, in addition to several batches of Bristols Rotherham also had centre entrance single deck trolleybuses as did Mexborough and Swinton (who ran jointly with Rotherham on some routes).
West Riding had large numbers of centre door Regent double decks on Wakefield routes.
The advantage of this layout was quicker boarding and alighting times with both ends of the bus able to leave at the same time.
It should be remembered that this was long before a large scale move to one man operation and the necessary front entrance position so these buses were conductor operated.
The last similar vehicles were withdrawn by Rotherham in the late ’60s. There were some withdrawn ones there at the same time that their first Fleetline chassis were delivered before despatch to Roe
Andrew
Darlington Corporation had centre-entrance single-deck Guy Arabs right through the ’60s and before that, centre-entrance S/D trolley buses. Sunderland Corporation and, I believe, Hartlepool, too, had centre-entrance double-deckers.
Bill Taylor
Leeds had centre entrance saloons in the Fifties on underfloor engined chassis they had 2 Tiger Cubs 2 Guy Arab LUFs and 5 Reliances all with Roe bodywork seating 34 + up to 20 standees. They had the steepest steps I’ve ever seen on a bus. The stair well was inside the bus with the doors flush with the side panelling
Chris Hough
The Leeds vehicles were regarded as an experiment and were built on a mix of AEC Reliance, Leyland Tiger Cub and Guy Arab UF chassis. Three of the vehicles survive in a scrapyard – if you google ‘the wakefield files’ you’ll find them.
Andrew
Grimsby Corporation had quite a number of centre-entrance AEC/Roe double-deckers in the 1930s, as well as a unique fleet of ten 6-wheel AEC/Roe centre-entrance trolleybuses. They also had one of the very few AEC “Q” double-deckers with a Roe centre-entrance body, built in 1933 and still running in 1956. Since the engine was at the side, under the central staircase, there were lower deck seats beside the driver. I remember seeing this vehicle in service.
The biggest disadvantage of the centre-entrance design was the split staircase which took up a lot of space on the top deck, giving fewer seats on the top deck than the bottom. “Provincial Bus and Tram Album” by J. Joyce (1968) shows a 1931 Grimsby example as having only 48 seats, while the “Q” is listed as having 56 seats (H29/27C); the side engine didn’t take up passenger space.
Wakey Models makes resin kits of several variants of this type of vehicle, which can be seen at this link.
Martin S
The centre-entrance layout was greatly favoured by the Rotherham general manager who was in charge of the municipal transport department for many years, the redoubtable Tom Percy Sykes.
The bus shown in the picture happens to be one of the wartime Bristol chassis that was fitted with a post-war body removed from one of nine Bristol L6B’s that were rebodied as double-deckers not long after being delivered as 32-seat centre-entrance saloons. In the photo, although still in Rotherham livery, the bus is in second-owner service; I don’t have the information directly in front of me, but believe this was one of several similar ex-Rotherham single-deckers that ended their lives with Cosy Coaches, an independent operating in Meadowfield, County Durham. The blinds it is fitted with in the picture are not Rotherham ones, and the legal lettering on the nearside is not that of Rotherham Corporation.
Dave Careless
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This Sunday a very different coach than you have been used to, West Yorkshire coaches were painted in cream & red rather than red & cream as the photo shows. This photo was taken before West Yorkshire brought in their rather complicated fleet numbering system as there are no letters just numbers in this case 250, which seemed a good enough system for 90 odd percent of other operators, can not imagine why it wasn’t good enough for West Yorkshire.
Anyway in April 1954 this bus was renumbered from 250 to EG2 but then in January 1959 it was renumbered again to SG 152 obviously normal fleet numbering really would of been a better idea.
This bus was withdrawn from West Yorkshire in June 1961 and moved to Wales first with Turner of Cardiff until 1963 then to Bennet of Swansea then the trail goes cold. Unless you know, if you do, let me know, please leave a comment.
A full list including Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.
I think there were operational reasons for the 1954 re-numbering system. For example, in York City, all the Gardner engines were 5LW, which were, to say the least, slow. (Extremely reliable, of course, but no fireballs!). There was therefore a policy of allocating the Gardner 7.0 litre five cylinder engined vehicles (YDG’s) to certain routes, and the Bristol 8.1 litre six cylinder engined vehicles (YDB’s) to others.
The regulators who allocated the vehicles every morning would thus know immediately which vehicles to allocate to which routes, fleet numbers just on their own would have required the regulators to have a prior knowledge of the fleet make- up. In practice, all regulators would quickly have become familiar with the fleet make-up, of course, but new guys on the job, or staff who did the job only occasionally, would have found the new system easier.
Similarly, allocating vehicles to some country routes with narrow roads was easier if you knew immediately the bus width, (e.g. DB or SB – 7ft 6in wide rather than DBW or SBW – 8 ft wide), without having to remember.
Roy Burke
Photo by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
The LL was just a longer version of the L with a body width of 7′ 6″ the LW that had a body width of 8′ 0″ and the LWL was the longer 8ft wide version. This bus went into service at West Yorkshire’s Harrogate depot in 1951 with a fleet number of 418, it was in 1954 when the new different fleet numbering system came into being and 418 became SGW 1.
A full list of Bristol abbreviations can be seen here
By looking closely at the wheels of SGW1, it can be seen that they are inboard of the mudguards by quite a distance. This is due to it having an 8ft wide ECW body on a 7ft 6ins wide Bristol LL5G chassis. Quite a few of the ‘Tilling’ fleets operated such vehicles, as it was a way of utilising supplies of the outgoing narrower chassis, whilst taking advantage of the increase in overall vehicle width then recently introduced. The 8ft wide version of this body could be identified by its split rear window – which had a pillar down the centre – as opposed to the single piece version on the narrower body. Still a handsome looking bus though isn’t it?
Brendan Smith
As I’ve written elsewhere Brendan, in my opinion this design of body, in all its versions, was the finest looking and most practical of any in the “front engined” era – and constructed to the usual high ECW quality as well.
Chris Youhill
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Here we have a pair of Bristol Ls the one on the left is a 30ft long by 8ft wide version with a Bristol 8.1 litre 6 cylinder engine. The one on the right is a 1947 L5G registration EWY 431 fleet number SG115 this bus differs from the LWL6B by being a B35R 26ft long by 7ft 6in wide and having a Gardner 7.0 litre 5 cylinder engine. To say there is an age difference of 5 years between them there is not many changes body wise, but at that time just after the war all that was required were buses and as many of them as possible.
A full list including Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.
The reason for the very minor changes in these bodies, other than size and capacity, throughout their production run is a simple and exemplary one. They were an absolutely superb design, and the quality of the construction and of all the fittings was the best. Personally I also believe that they were the finest looking single deckers of the “front engined” era and also they combined the high quality and good looks with superb passenger flow, visibility and luggage space. A particularly appealing variant was the 31 seat coach, many examples of which were mounted,in addition to the Bristol majority, on Leyland PS1 chassis which made for another different but most attractive combination.
Chris Youhill
SG 115 was always one of the regular Yeadon depot based (EWY registration) Bristol L5Gs used on my school special afternoon service from Otley Grammar School to Burley-in-Wharfedale in the mid to late fifties. I have very fond memories of these buses and particularly remember the lovely purring noise when at speed with the clunk of the gear stick into overdrive 5th or would this be 4th? WYRCC always exuded to me a feeling of what a “Tilling” Company should be. Happy days.
Richard Fieldhouse
I share your acoustic memories of these fine vehicles Richard, and I remember the very first “EWY” registrations immediately after the War. I was just stunned by their clean lines and attractive and very functional interiors. As with all other Bristol Ls and Ks so fitted the fifth gear (nickname “supertop”) was actually an external overdrive in addition to the normal four speed box – this accounts for the glorious melodious tones when engaged. It was engaged from fourth gear (NOT through neutral) by moving the lever to the right and smartly forward. It was virtually essential to adjust the engine revs and to return to the main gearbox fourth position well before the bus stopped or you might well be “stuck” in overdrive. I am not an engineer, but I think this is an accurate description of the feature – if not I’d gladly welcome any correction.
Chris Youhill
31/01/11 – 15:05
Chris, many thanks for your description of how a driver selects 5th gear on a Bristol. I can well recall the action of the driver with the thrust forward of the gear stick which gave the clunk noise. I used to observe the driver from the front nearside seat of the bus which was always my favourite position.
Richard Fieldhouse
31/01/11 – 20:13
Chris, thanks from me, too, for your description of using the fifth gear on the Bristol Ls; like Richard, I always tried to get a seat which gave a view of the driver – my own favourite was offside front by the gangway – but I’ve forgotten the exact pedal procedure, (I never drove one). You say you needed to adjust the engine revs and return to fourth while the vehicle was still moving, but how, without a neutral between 4th and 5th?
Also, how universal was the mechanism? Was it fitted to all West Yorkshire Ls? I don’t remember the Y-WY L5Gs having it, but that may just be because they didn’t need it for town working, or it may be another instance of my creeping senility!
Roy Burke
01/02/11 – 05:37
Glad top be of help on the “supertop” query Richard and Roy. Returning to fourth gear from the overdrive did not involve neutral – but I omitted to mention that the clutch pedal had simply to be gently dipped and a very slight increase in revs applied and then the lever dropped easily and quietly into fourth gear. I can’t honestly say at what time the overdrive became available but I think that all L5Gs, pre and postwar, had it but possibly the JO5Gs did not – but I think that anywhere in York the traffic would be too heavy and slow to afford any opportunity for the use of the high ratio, and so the facility probably quietly remained “in reserve”.
Chris Youhill
01/02/11 – 05:38
I seem to remember reading an account of a North Western driver with one of their K5Gs in Stockport, who pushed his luck with 5th gear – letting speed drop lower than he should. I think a car pulled out in front of him, or something of that sort. There followed an anxious, painful, strangled grind to regain a speed sufficient to escape from 5th without the humiliation of having to abandon ship.
Stephen Ford
05/02/11 – 16:01
Chris, I have found your experience of the overdrive 5th on Bristols fascinating and am certain that all the WY Bristol JO5Gs and prewar L5Gs had an overdrive 5th gearbox. This feature only started to appear on the double decker Bristols around 1951. WYRCC fitted a 5 speed box to 1949 Bristol K6B 751 (DD Coach conversion 1951) and also to 1951 Bristol KSW6B 808 (DBW 3). Deliveries of later 1952/53 Bristol KSWs (LWR registered) had 5 speed gearboxes from new as did the later Bristol Lodekkas from DX3 onwards. (DX2 was delivered with a 4 speed box but converted to a 5 speed box in May 1954)
Richard Fieldhouse
06/02/11 – 05:44
I shall have the Kleenex out soon at these wonderful memories of such happy times. I was fortunate enough to be allowed into Grove Park just at the time when 751 was completed as a coach and was standing there resplendent and sensational in its rich cream and maroon. Then you mention the magnificent 808, DBW 3. I was still at school and lived in Ilkley when 806 – 9 were delivered and all were allocated to Ilkley, with white steering wheels to indicate 8’00″ wide. Initially they had open platforms and were returned to ECW later for doors to be fitted. They were glorious vehicles and if it was possible to improve on previous ECW deliveries they certainly achieved it in terms of interior fittings and finish.
Chris Youhill
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This photo was on the “Do you Know” page, but thanks to Spencer for the information that led to this article.
Here we have two Bristol Single deckers from two different operators for sale at W Norths Limited, Sherburn-in-Elmet a dealer near York and the photo was taken in March 1966.
The one on the right is as the above specification, the interesting thing about this bus is the dual doors one at the front and one at the rear. I presume the bus had been converted to one man operation and the policy was you got on at the front and off at the rear. Looking at the doors though they appear to be manually operated so last on or off had to close the door. I bet there has been a fair bit of “tutting” done on this bus in its lifetime due to people not closing the doors. If I am incorrect with my presumption please correct me by leaving a comment.
The one on the left is a Western National Omnibus 1951 Bristol LWL6B with an ECW C37F body registration LTA 863 fleet no 1314. A full fronted coach, but there was no need rushing to get on the bus first so you sit at the front next to the driver, no seat, just engine and wheel arch.
By the way, both of these buses were bought from the dealer, the one on the right went to contractor in Otley Yorkshire as a staff bus, not sure how long for though. The one on the left went on to Jordan Motor Services Limited, Blaenavon and did a further four years service before being scrapped in 1970.
A full list of Bristol codes can be seen at this link.
Yes this coach along with 9 others of this type were later owned by Jordans Blaenavon the last of these were I believe all were scrapped by 1971 the others came from Bristol Greyhound.
Tony
The twin door ECW bodied L types were unique to Bristol City services. They were always conductor operated. The front door was (after the first few years at least), automatic and operated by the driver. {As a schoolboy I used to always get off at the front just to be annoying – a lot of the drivers would forget to open the door.} In about 1958 there was a major re-organisation of services in Bristol which resulted in almost all becoming double deck operated and all of these L types were taken off. The 1947 series (JHT registrations) were disposed of. The LHY and MHW registered batches were exchanged for 35 seat rear door country fleet ones. Some were converted to one man operation with the rear door removed. A few, including the one in the picture, continued to operate in the country area as twin door buses.
Peter Cook
08/08/12 – 07:17
Having just been looking at this picture again, and having been doing CPC part of last week to keep my PCV license up, I have just realised that it would actually be illegal to operate the dual door L type without a conductor.
Peter Cook
17/12/14 – 05:38
I also travelled on B33D L types to games afternoons when at school. They ran, I think, service 145 from Horsefair which started off up St Michael’s Hill – quite exciting!
Previous comment is right. The redundant City vehicles were swapped for single door country buses and the company then converted the two door versions quite easily into one man operated, by extending the cab with a diagonal window across the engine bay, using the existing (slow) power sliding door and panelling in the rear door and upseating to 35. Like many operators one man operation took many Tilling operators by surprise!
Geoff Pullin
20/12/14 – 06:30
I don’t remember the 145 as a single deck route as my regular journeys to school in central Bristol began in 1958. The Ls were used on service 17 Temple Meads – Clifton, 139 Stapleton and 239 Ashton Vale (these two having low bridges and later combined as the 19).
Geoff Kerr
25/08/19 – 07:29
I have a print of the above photo and it is endorsed copyright Trevor Hartley and is dated 12 APR 1966.
Hope this helps to solve the photographer ‘unknown’ part of the description.
Ian Mawson
27/08/19 – 05:23
I can confirm that I took this photo at Norths on 12 April 1966. I am delighted that it provides interest and pleasure 50+ years on.
Trevor Hartley
This bus has been on this website before it was one of the first and I did not research into it as well as I could of done, but as this bus is in the process of being preserved I think I should do it justice.
This bus entered service with United in 1951 as a LL5G – B39R with a fleet number of BG460. All that coding meant it was classed as a long version of a Bristol L with bus seating and livery, with a 7.0 litre 5 cylinder Gardner engine.
In 1953 (I had 1963 here but from a comment below by David Hudson I was ten years out) it would appear it was re-engined with a Bristol 8.1 litre 6 cylinder engine the seating was reduced to 33 and the class changed to duel purpose making it a LL6B – DP33R with a fleet number of BBE1. At this time I think it would of been re-painted to Cream and Red more or less a reversal of the above shot which was the colour scheme for United “Express” vehicles.
In 1961 it seems it was re-classed back to a bus I am not sure if the seating was increased back to 39 though (see David Hudson’s comment), the fleet number was also changed to BB51 but later that year the the first “B” which stood for Bristol was dropped. The bus must have been repainted back to Red and Cream as the above photo was taken after 1964.
Two years later 1966 it was withdrawn from service with United passing to W Norths Limited, Sherburn-in-Elmet (dealer) between Leeds and York in 1967. Fortunately it was bought by a contractor as a staff bus and not scrapped, I am not sure how long it was with the contractor but eventually it was bought by a private individual for preservation.
Looking along the side of B51, an extra strip of aluminium beading beneath the windows (curving down towards the front) can be seen. This was presumably added by United as extra brightwork, when it was upgraded to express standard and repainted cream and red. On being demoted back to bus duties, and resuming its original red and cream livery, it looks like the beading was simply painted over. West Yorkshire Road Car gave the same treatment to its LS5G express vehicles in later life, when converting them to buses. Shame on both counts that the beading couldn’t have been just left polished as nature intended.
Brendan Smith
When I was a lad one holiday the family went on service 43 from Leeds to Scarborough. I think the bus was a Lodekka. On our return we joined a long queue at Westwood to return to Leeds. An inspector announced that a bus was going to depart but would be nonstop to Seacroft and Vicar Lane only. The bus came on to the stand and was a West Yorkshire L. The driver must have had a date with a lady as we literally flew to Leeds. Although this was donkey’s years ago it has stuck in my mind. Later in my career I drove Bristol Ks at Southend corporation which were on hire from Eastern National.
Philip Carlton
I’m building a 4mm scale layout based in the Northeast and would like a model of this bus (preferably in United livery)
Does anybody out there know of a source?
Thanks,
Trevor Elliot,
Bellingham WA USA
As the present owner of NHN 128, just a few comments on its history. Vehicle converted to dual purpose in 1953, using seats from earlier L6Bs. Fitted with Bristol engine at this time. 1961 re-seated to B39R using seats from earlier vehicles with wooden grab rails. Sold to Buxted Chickens (Ross Poultry) seeing service until 1976. Awaiting restoration following fire damage in 1980s
David Hudson
In answer to Trevor Elliot, Corgi OOC made that model (I have two) I bought them off e-bay, I think I paid about £8.00 each plus P+P
Jimmy
18/12/12 – 07:53
In the early 50’s I was a driver at Scarborough depot seasonal only, but later transferred to Redcar on a permanent basis. I spent many an hour driving up and down Scarborough seafront, but my favourite run was service 58 Scarborough to Whitby and Middlesbrough.
The fleet numbers I remember were BB,BBE,BH,BG. My memory isn’t too good now,but if you think I can be of any help don’t hesitate to ask me.
Robert Robinson
Copyright Robert F. Mack
Quite awhile ago we had a posting of a Rotherham Corporation Bristol K6B double decker which was contributed by Ian Wild. The vehicle actually started life in 1949 as a L5B single deck vehicle but after only three years it was rebodied, naturally as comments were made the obvious question came up, what happened to the original saloon bodies?
Thanks to Andrew Charles for sending in the above shot and the following copy:-
The above L5G chassis was built in 1940 and when new carried East Lancs B32C bodywork.
In 1951 the chassis was modernized and rebodied with the two year old body (Bruce on East Lancs frames) from the 1949 L6B which in turn was rebodied as a double decker. An obvious visual indication was that although this chassis was originally built with the high mounted KV radiator more familiar on JOG type chassis, this vehicle had received on rebuild the later style PV2 radiator with its associated lower bonnet line.
An example of a 1939 L5G still carrying its original radiator can be seen parked behind number 160 and that vehicle had also lost its original East Lancs B32C body. It isn’t possible to identify the specific vehicle shown here but a number of chassis in this batch received new bodies in 1952/3. Built by either Bond (B37R), East Lancs (Bridlington) (B35R) or, in two cases, the Rotherham Corporation Transport bodyshop (B37R) – in all cases they were built on East Lancs frames. In some cases the chassis was lengthened to 29′ prior to receiving the new body.
The vehicle seen to the left of the photo appears to be one of the later L5G of 1950/51, also fitted from new with East Lancs (Bridlington) B32C bodywork.
Rotherham may have got their money out of the 1940 chassis but I am not sure about the 1949 bodies. The withdrawal dates are as follows 159 rebodied again 1956, 162 – 1957, 161 – 1954 and the above vehicle 160 – 1957. At the best the longest surviving body was eight years old when it went for scrap, but the worst is that of 161 at only five years. Another interesting point is that the rest of the batch of L5Gs that kept there original 1940 bodies were withdrawn over the same period 157/8 – 1956, 163/4 – 1957 and 165 – 1954.
Andrew has also put together a Fleet list of Rotherham Corporation Bristol L Types listing all rebodies undertaken. There is a web version here but you will need a wide screen or view at 75%, if you would like an .xls spreadsheet version please contact me in the usual way.
Photograph and Information contributed by Andrew Charles
20/02/11 – 18:42
The postings regarding the Rotherham Bristol conversions from single to double-deck make for most interesting reading. I left Rotherham for Canada many years ago, but have retained a considerable interest in the Corporation fleet of that era, and have collected many photographs over the years over which to reminisce about the “good old days” of Rotherham Corporation buses.
The nine L6B’s that were rebodied as double deckers had been originally bodied by East Lancs (112-4) and Bruce Coachworks (179-184). The three East Lancs bodies were distinguishable from the Bruce examples by having a sliding cab door, whereas the Bruce bodies had a hinged example.
I did some considerable research years ago into the rebodying exercise that went on with respect to these buses, and came to the conclusion that the PSV Circle information is not quite correct as to exactly which L5G’s that originally had Cravens bodies were the recipients of the newer East Lancs/Bruce coachwork. The PSV Circle quotes fleet nos. 137/40/2/3 and 159/60-2/5 as being the nine pre-war and wartime buses that were rebodied. In my collection of Rotherham photographs, I have clear evidence that nos 163 (CET 446) and 168 (CET 564) both received new post-war bodywork in the 1950’s, and am of the opinion that of the buses that the PSV Circle quotes as being rebodied, both 137 and 142 (BET 513/518) actually weren’t rebodied at all, but retained their Cravens structures until withdrawal in 1955, which was considerably earlier than the other seven rebodies. Also, it is worth noting that when 137/42 were eventually withdrawn and sold, the only trace of the pair is of 137 ending up as a showman’s lorry in Montrose, Scotland. 142 disappeared, presumably for scrap, whereas the other seven rebodies, as one would expect, all found further work after being pensioned off by Rotherham, except for 161 (CET 444) which was scrapped prematurely in 11/54 after sustaining accident damage.
Incidentally, of note are 143 and 159, which were two of the rebodied examples. These two actually collided with each other in Rotherham, and both ended up being rebuilt and lengthened and fitted with rear entrance sliding doors, their seating capacity subsequently increased to 37. Remarkably, they both ended up being sold to T.D. Alexander (Greyhound) and ran side by side on contractor’s services in Sheffield, until both ending up in the same Worksop scrapyard together in 1964.
With respect to the reason for the rebodying, one can only assume that when it was decided to operate double-deckers on all routes where practical, apart from rural services to small outlying villages or those routes on which double deck operation was impossible, these nine having six-cylinder engines would have been perfect candidates for rebodying as double deckers, the still relatively new single deck bodies able to be fitted on to older five-cylinder L type chassis that still had several years life left in them but whose original bodies were well past their ‘best by’ date.
I note the comment posted with respect to Rotherham’s only female driver of the era. That would have been Miss Winifred Hallam, whom I believe was the only woman in the country at the time who was licensed to drive trams, trolleybuses and motor buses!! She could indeed handle those Crossleys, and I have a very strong childhood recollection of seeing Miss Hallam being forced to back her Bristol down an icy Doncaster Gate in the town one snowy afternoon, as she was unable to climb the hill due to the severe wintry conditions; seeing the head of curls sticking out of the open cab door as she gingerly inched her way back down on to the flat terrain has been, and likely always will be, an abiding memory!! I hope these comments have been of interest.
Dave Careless
20/02/11 – 20:19
Thanks to Dave for such a comprehensive and interesting feedback.
I would be interested to know if during his research he could clarify a further area regarding the BET xxx chassis that were rebodied with B–R bodies.
The PSV Circle records that I used for the fleet list show specific vehicles of those that were rebodied as having lengthened chassis. Was it genuinely the case that the vehicles included in this exercise were rebuilt with bodies to two different lengths or is the data simply lacking detail in respect of some entries and in fact all were lengthened?
Andrew
21/02/11 – 06:31
What an evocative photograph! Taken at Rotherham’s Rawmarsh Road Depot, the buses are so typically Rotherham. I don’t recall these CET registered buses but remember the very similar post war FET registered ones quite well which must have been amongst the last Bristols supplied to Rotherham. The local independent, Greyhound, mentioned by Dave Careless had a most interesting fleet split between Sheffield and Arbroath, just imagine driving a 5LW engined bus between the two locations! Vehicles were often exchanged between them.
Ian Wild
22/02/11 – 06:22
Thanks for your appreciative comments about the posting, Andrew. With respect to the rebodying of the 1938 L5G’s, 147-55 (BET901-9), and the lengthening exercise that went with it, that all seems a bit vague at best. Apparently the contract for the rebodying of these nine vehicles was awarded to East Lancs at Bridlington, with the bodies being built on steel frames supplied from Blackburn. While the work was in hand, and with four vehicles completed, the decision was taken sometime in 1952 to wind up the Bridlington operation, and according to an article I have in my files, the vehicle bodies in hand were built in skeleton form and transferred to S.H. Bond of Wythenshawe, Manchester for completion. Wouldn’t they have been a sight to see, being driven from Bridlington to Manchester!!
With respect to the lengthening, I have “official” views of an East Lancs bodied example just completed at Bridlington and a Bond bodied one that looks to be about to set out for Rotherham, and after comparing them carefully, can’t see any noticeable differences, the overhang at the rear looks to be the same in both cases. The only slight difference could possibly be at the front end, where the sloping cab front looks to be slightly more upright on the Bond bodied one, but even that might be a trick of the camera, it’s hard to say.
In yet another article entitled “Out of Bond”, published in Transport World for April 1953, there is a write-up on the delivery to Rotherham on February 26th of that year of the first of the five rebodies, in which, and I quote: “The new bodies, which represent the completion of five single-deckers from an order of nine originally placed with East Lancashire Coachbuilders (Bridlington) Ltd., have been mounted on rebuilt 1939 Bristol chassis which originally seated 32 passengers. The chassis rebuilding and modernizing was carried out in the Corporation works and the body design was then modified to take advantage of the new length regulations, so that the vehicles can now seat 35 passengers.”
The PSV Circle Fleet History on Rotherham Corporation lists the five dealt with by Bond as being increased in length and fitted out as B37R, with the four dealt with at Bridlington not being mentioned as lengthened and listed as B35R. It’s hard to imagine that East Lancs would have received an order from Rotherham to rebody nine chassis, but with instructions to only lengthen five of them, these five seating 37 and the four unlengthened ones seating just two less, that would seem pointless. Considering that they both appear to look the same, and with the reference in the “Out of Bond” article referring to the rebodied buses they completed as being 35 seaters, if I were a betting man I’d say that all nine were lengthened, and their revised seating capacity was 35, despite what it says in the PSV Circle Fleet History. I recall reading somewhere that the sliding rear doors on these rebodies proved troublesome, the severe overhang of the body caused some slight distortion and some of the conducting staff found the doors quite difficult to open and close. Hopefully there might be somebody out there who can confirm beyond reasonable doubt the seating capacity of all nine of these rebodied machines.
For the record, these lengthened saloons were quite often to be found on the Sheffield – Rotherham – Doncaster service, route 77, until the route was revised to clear a low bridge at the Sheffield end in 1956, and became the preserve of a batch of seven Weymann bodied Daimler CVG6’s that lasted on there for years. The BET-saloons ended their days on school journeys and colliery extras, and six of them were withdrawn in late 1957 following the delivery of an equal number of AEC Reliances, Rotherham’s first underfloor engined single-deckers. Hope this is of interest.
Dave Careless
12/06/15 – 06:07
Just found out a titbit about Bruce. They were originally called Air Dispatch (Coachbuilders) Ltd. in Cardiff, but were renamed Bruce Coach Works in September 1948. They seemed to consistently build bodies on East Lancs frames.
Chris Hebbron
Copyright David Humphrey
Here is a photo of SLB 290, Crosville’s last half-cab single decker. It is a 1952 Bristol LL6B with B39RD bodywork. It is pictured at central works, Chester in the summer of 1970 shortly after its withdrawal from service.
It was latterly allocated to Chester depot, spending its last days mostly operating routes C6/7, Chester to Ellesmere Port via the villages of Stoak and Stanney and a short working within Ellesmere Port (the route inevitably referred by crews as the “stroke your fanny”).
I got to drive it a few times in service, and compared to the later underfloor engined single deckers, LSs and MWs, it was like driving a sports car, super bus to drive.
Just after I uploaded the photo, I discovered that the “new” Crosville, based in Weston-Super Mare, has acquired SLB 290, and have started to restore it. They also have another photo of the bus from when it was in service, parked on the Chester depot “overspill” parking area at Chester Northgate rail station. See their website ‘News’ page, or their Facebook site.
Photograph and Copy contributed by David Humphrey
A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.
09/06/12 – 12:13
A lovely posting, David, of a true icon. The L series represents the utter pinnacle of front-engined single deck design and the ECW body was very handsome. Fitted with the Bristol engine and the ‘supertop’ gear, they went, as you say, very well indeed.
For me the only issue with SLB 290 is the altered destination indicator, which looks a bit unbalanced and clumsy. All indicator blinds involve a compromise of one sort or another; ECW’s standard early post-war two part indicators gave room for detailed intermediate destination points alongside the route number, but required long blinds that were not economical when routes with different numbers covered the same intermediate points, (e.g. service 4 and 4A in York). The later, three part box overcame this problem but involved five separate blinds and a fiddly little gear, (especially when worn), to switch between the three number blinds. Slow and occasionally complicated to alter. Eventually, of course, came the omission of intermediate points altogether in the ‘T’ form indicator. Cheaper and less complicated, of course, but less informative, too.
None of this alters the fact that Bristol Ls were superb, as your posting so excellently reminds us. Glad SLB 290 has been preserved.
Roy Burke
21/01/13 – 17:16
Great to see a photo of SLB 290 in service (just). I work as a part time heritage driver for the aforementioned Crosville of Weston-super-Mare and can confirm that the restoration is coming along nicely. They hope that this lovely vehicle will join 2 other genuine Crosville Bristol Ls in the private hire fleet.
I can’t wait to drive it – I love the 6-cylinder engine/gearbox combination!
David, could I ask your permission to use this photo on my blog? I will credit you of course. I write about my driving experiences quite often and I’m looking forward to the day when SLB 290 is the subject of my posting! At the moment I’m just writing about its restoration. See my blog at the link below busmanjohn.wordpress.com
Busman John