Photos – Old bus photos

Hull Corporation – Leyland TB7CN – FRH 564 – 64

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1940
Leyland TB7CN
East Lancs H28/26R

The Holderness Road trolleybus route conversion was about to get underway, but the outbreak of World War 2, intervened. Much of the overhead equipment was already on hand or on order at this point, added to which the tramway was getting in need of replacement. Hull Corporation therefore applied for Parliamentary permission to convert the route to trolleybus operation. Permission was forthcoming and the route was duly converted. To operate the service, which was given the route numbers 64 and 64A. The latter was a short working to East Park, used mainly to turn duplicates off the main route which terminated at the Ings Road junction. To operate the service twenty Leyland TB7CN chassis were purchased and these were bodied by East Lancashire Coachbuilders, a company new to Hull Corporation. Initially the seating was H28/26R, but was later up-seated to H31/29R. Bus number 64 (FRH 564) is shown operating along Holderness Road. The photograph may have been taken in Coronation year, 1953, if the flags and bunting on the buildings are anything to go by.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton

Just curious about this TB7CN – TB for Trolleybus, 7 for the 7th model possible the numbers were linked to the Titan TD numbers, but what did the CN stand for?

Spencer

You have me on this one, all I can say is that this type was on a fleet list obtained from Geoff O’Connell, whose knowledge of KHCT was second to none. He was the Assistant GM at the time I knew him.
I believe that the TB series numbers were linked to the Titan series, with regard to chassis improvements, but I’ve not seen any confirmation of this.

Keith Easton

The batch was just designated TB7 – I have copies of the specification and tender forms from Leyland. All twenty were built in 1939 being delivered in the late Summer of 1939. Nos 47/8/51/2 entered service on 31 August 1939.
The TB designation was linked with the TD series – the tender for nos 1-26 actually quoted TD4 chassis – later changed to TB4
The Corporation already had permission to convert the route but, owing to the War, no Ministry of Transport inspection would be made it being up to the General Manager to authorise it. The Transport Committee being uncertain about the war situation at first declined to convert the route (originally scheduled for September 1939) and not until February 1940 did it agree.
Geoff O’Connell was never the Assistant GM but was in the Traffic Office.
For more details see my book “Kingston upon Hull Trolleybuses” published by Trolleybooks in 1996.

Malcolm Wells

16/02/20 – 06:14

Just for the record, I was told that Arthur (staff and later Chief) Handley was the only driver that could take North Bridge at speed and keep his trolleys on.
Arthur, a gentle giant died from skin cancer in the early 1980’s just after being made up.

Box501

Southdown – Leyland Royal Tiger – MCD 515 – 1515

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1953
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13
East Lancs DP40C

This photo taken in the mid sixties in Pevensey Road Eastbourne shows one of my all time favourites, one of batch of thirty No’s 1510-1539 Reg No’s MCD 510-539 delivered in 1953 it is a Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 with an East Lancs body delivered as DP40C and converted to B39F for OMO use in 1961 then sold in 1968. These followed a batch of ten No’s 1500-1509 Reg No’s LUF 500-509 delivered in 1952 these differed in being delivered as B40R also converted later for OMO work. My best memories of these handsome buses were in the mid fifties on the 126 route from Eastbourne to Seaford by the inland route via Alfriston and a steep climb over the South Down known as High and Over, the pleasure was much greater if I was able to bag the front N/S seat opposite the driver for which I always arrived early, the usual two cars (to use correct Southdown term) were 1528 and 1531. I little thought that about 14 years later I would be driving Leopards on the virtually same route but always wished it was one of those Royal Tigers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

21/05/15 – 06:45

Very nice, Dave, but wasn’t B39C a bit difficult for OMO/OPO working?

Pete Davies

21/05/15 – 06:47

Does anyone know what caused Southdown to buy East Lancs bodywork, a very accurate attractive bus but at the time East Lancs customer base was mainly in the north.
Did Southdown really use these as B39C for OMO work?

Chris Hough

21/05/15 – 16:56

There is a typo in Dave’s text. Should read’ and converted to B39F I also remember travelling on these as a child, both before and after conversion, and like Dave used to go for the front seat when they were central entrance. They were replaced in 1968 with a batch of Marshall bodied manual gearbox RE’s, which I seem to remember were not to their drivers liking!

Roy Nicholson

21/05/15 – 16:58

Spot the not so deliberate mistake 1515 was of course converted to B39F for OMO/OPO work part of the conversion entailed the previously recessed N/S windscreen being made upright to accommodate the new doors when open, my apologies for my poor proof reading.

Diesel Dave

23/05/15 – 07:20

Chris Hough asks about Southdown’s use of East Lancs products – I think the first use was in the war-time rebodying of two Leyland TD1s, and eight Leyland TD2’s to utility specification, a job which East Lancs was authorised (with Willowbrook) to do, rather than body new chassis. Southdown must have been satisfied, because East Lancs was included in the re-bodying programme of Leyland TD3s, TD4s and TD5s just after WWII. This exercise included several body-builders, including Park Royal, NCME, Saunders and Beadle. 59 bodies were completed by East Lancs between 1946 and 1950. Then the 40 Royal Tigers followed, and the final 24 PD2/12’s (789-812). However Southdown multi-sourced by also ordering from Park Royal, Beadle and NCME for double-deckers in the 1950s, finally settling on NCME for the 285 Queen Mary PD3s.

Michael Hampton

Lancaster City Transport – Leyland Panther – LTC 109F – 109

Lancaster City Transport
1968
Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R
East Lancs B53F

LTC 109F fleet number 109 is a Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R with East Lancs B53F body, new to Lancaster in 1968. The batch was in maroon and cream livery then, but we see it in ‘post merger’ livery of blue and white, on the sunny evening of 20 May 1975. The scene is Lancaster’s Damside Street Bus Station. 389 JTD a 1959 Tiger Cub is behind, still in the old livery but with the Tilling style of fleetname adopted as an interim measure for Lancaster and Morecambe & Heysham vehicles, together with what looks like another Panther on the extreme left of the view.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

24/04/16 – 09:09

In late 1979 LTC 109F came to Derbyshire when, in company with Morecambe and Heysham AEC Swift UTJ 908H, it joined Woolliscroft Silver Service fleet at Darley Dale. Initially they were on loan from Lancaster City but were purchased outright soon after arrival. The Panther bore a strong family resemblance to a batch of Neepsend bodied Panthers at nearby Chesterfield, these Neepsend bodies being built under license from East Lancs. LTC 109F lasted a couple of years but was eventually stripped for spares and the remains had been scrapped by 1982. The Swift lasted a little longer going to North at Sherburn in 1983.

David Hargraves

24/04/16 – 10:43

My original slide includes the Ribble PD3 with Metropolitan Cammell body which some members may have spotted on the extreme right It is from the PCK series. Lancaster had six of these Panthers, in two trios: GTC 104-106F from 1967 and 107-109F from 1968.
David comments on a number of supposed ‘East Lancs’ products being bodied by Neepsend. Some of Southampton’s later Regent V fleet were products of this arrangement and I think I’ve read somewhere that many think Neepsend was a subsidiary of East Lancs, but they were in fact part of the same group. Wrong again, Davies?

Pete Davies

24/04/16 – 12:42

Just a clarification re. Pete’s comment, the registrations of the second batch of three Panthers were LTC-F.
Lancaster reverted to Leopards for its next deliveries.

Dave Towers

24/04/16 – 18:33

Thanks, Dave. I must fire my proof reader!

Pete Davies

26/04/16 – 14:57

East Lancs were owned at the time by John Brown engineering who were based originally in Sheffield They re activated bus building in Sheffield at a factory on Neepsend Lane using East Lancs designs.
So really Neepsend were never an East Lancs subsidiary but both were part of the John Brown empire.
Sheffield took some rear engine chassis from them in 1964/65 The firm (I think) built one more body on a Bedford VAS chassis for Sheffield but by this time it was called Cravens Homalloy.

Chris Hough

27/04/16 – 05:54

Thanks, Chris. I’m glad that the old grey cells have not failed me this time.

Pete Davies

Bolton Corporation – Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 – ABN 213C – 213

Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Bolton Corporation
1965
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
East Lancs H45/33F

Here we have two Bolton Corporation Leyland Atlanteans separated by only eleven registration and fleet number but they are both bodied by a different body builder. The one on the left was by East Lancs built in Blackburn Lancashire which is not many miles away from Bolton, the one on the right by MCW (Metro Cammell & Weymann) a Birmingham based body builder. All Atlanteans delivered to Bolton after this batch of 8 MCWs were all bodied by the local builder East Lancs,

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

The interesting thing about these Bolton vehicles is that the modern styling and colour scheme was the creation of the General Manager Ralph Bennett.
He subsequently went to Manchester as GM, where he created the Mancunian, the first bus to be specifically built with OPO in mind, which revolutionised both Manchester’s buses and, arguably set the trend for the whole country.
He then moved on to London Transport where he created the “Londoner” DM and DMS buses, though sadly LTE were far more timid than either Bolton or Manchester’s Transport Committees, and the result was pretty mediocre in comparison with his earlier work.

David Jones

Ralph Bennett was certainly responsible for the new Bolton livery, and as it first appeared on this style of Atlantean, he is generally credited with that as well. But in fact the design of the East Lancs body was a straight copy of the Metro-Cammell one apart from having slightly bigger windows, and the Metro-Cammell one had already appeared at Liverpool several months earlier, presenting a very different appearance in their livery.
I have often wondered who was really responsible for that Liverpool design. The managements of municipal fleets always had good relations with each other, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised at some sort of collaboration. I very much doubt that it was MCW.

Peter Williamson

28/08/11 – 12:19

I am wondering if Bolton Corporation Atlantean fleet number 192 is still around it was the first Atlantean bus to come on the road in 1963 and I drove it on the first day it came into service on the Bolton – Bury 52 Route we went from Thynne St in those days it had a automatic gearbox but could be driven manually through the gears number 4 slot on the selector box being the auto but was disconnected later and reverted to manual early problems were the fuel lift pump and in fact broke down on our last trip which was to Stopes Little Lever

Frank Ryle

28/08/11 – 15:50

Most interesting Frank – we had a batch of twenty new Atlanteans (406 – 425) at Leeds City Transport in 1970, and they had very smooth automatic gearboxes for that era – many systems at that time were diabolical and, in cases, downright dangerous but I really liked these twenty. Were yours the same in that if you selected 4th position at a standstill the bus would move away in second gear and then change up very smoothly. You had to select first gear when required in the normal “1” position on the “H”.

Chris Youhill

29/08/11 – 07:56

Central Area and Green Country Area Routemaster buses (as opposed to Green Line coaches) were the same. They were fully automatic when 4 was selected and started in second from rest. They had full control of gears in semi-automatic mode using all the gates – including 1st.
Anyone who remembers original London operation might remember hill starts in 1st – but then shifting straight to 4 for automatic operation thereafter.
When I was driving RMs for Reading Mainline in the ’90s, we were told to drive in semi-auto mode rather than in fully automatic. [At that age some could cope with auto but others couldn’t.] The preserved RML that I drive still has fully auto capability but I prefer to drive it semi-auto to ensure a smooth drive – for which I am well known.
Interesting enough, the Alder Valley Bristol VRTs of the late 70s had a slightly different control – which I seem to recollect went over to some subsequent Leyland Olympians. They were fully automatic but always started in 1st – but the take up was harsh and brisk, meaning even the best of drivers could end up catapulting old ladies on to the back seat. They also had a very strange three gate control – Reverse, Forward and change down (after which you went back to Forward, ie auto).

David Oldfield

30/08/11 – 08:12

yes Chris it was the same as you say in auto mode pull away in second but the change wasn’t as smooth and a bit jerky as I said it was decided to disconnect the auto and just have manual on the subject of gearboxes in early sixties BOLTON still had some Crossleys and Leyland PD ones which had a crash box double de clutch and hope you matched up the revs otherwise you had no chance of changing up or down although they were fitted with a clutch stop which put a brake in the gearbox as they were at the end of their life it was hit and miss if they worked or not also a small number of front loading Daimlers with preselect boxes in first you could move the selector to second but it wouldn’t change until you pressed the clutch pedal which wasn’t a clutch pedal as such but a decompression pedal if you stabbed it quick the change was reasonable provided you match up the revs and road speed otherwise it would snatch fiercely

Frank Ryle

30/08/11 – 15:25

Interesting information again Frank and perhaps by 1970 that particular automatic system had been improved, because the twenty buses that I mentioned were impeccably behaved in auto or manual mode and admittedly they were new when I drove them. When with the famous independent operator Samuel Ledgard I drove many Leyland PD1s and PD2s. I passed my PSV test on a wonderful PD1, JUM 378 of 1946, and although I use the term “favourite” with care I think I must say that they are one of the most appealing and totally predictable models for me – the Ledgard fitters certainly kept the clutch stops in fine order even on buses twenty years old. The spring operated gear change on the Daimlers had to be treated with great respect if you wanted to avoid a trip to A & E with an ankle injury. Any wear on the selector linkages or failure to depress the gear change pedal positively and fully would result in the pedal flying out to twice the normal length with tremendous force – usually it could be restored by applying both feet to the pedal and pressing the shoulders against the cab rear window – Lord knows what the passengers must have thought !! Happy days, and the present generation of “fast men” think they have it hard with their super fully automatic buses and incredibly powerful engines – but no character or challenge – I wouldn’t have missed my early days for anything and I can still happily remember dozens, or many more, of individual vehicles and their peculiarities.

Chris Youhill

30/08/11 – 19:24

Chris, how I empathise with your sentiments on some of the present day crop of bus drivers. Power steering, auto gearboxes, powerful brakes, vehicle power to weight ratios that were undreamed of in our time…..! How would they cope with, say, a manual PD3 with synchro on the top two gears only. Mind you, driving a bus on the roads of today, having to cope with the stupid, suicidal, selfish lunacies of the cretinous Clarkson clone brigade that now infests our highways, is a far cry from those happier times of yore. I gave up bus driving finally five and a half years ago and wouldn’t want to go back to it except for classic vehicle jaunts. Also, as you say, these present day monsters of the bus fleets have about as much individual character as the wallpaper pattern in a Chinese restaurant. And as for some of these “modern” liveries, words fail me (and many will testify that this is an extreme rarity!).
I. too, remember (painfully) those Daimler preselectors. At Halifax, it was accepted practice not to warn the novice drivers about the endearing characteristics of the Daimler box. When it happened to me, the pedal came out half a mile (or so it seemed) giving me a hefty smack on the knee against the steering wheel in the process. I thought that I had broken the thing. The pedal was solid, and the bus remained obstinately in neutral. In sheer desperation, I swung round in the seat, and hoofed the pedal hard with both feet, finding, to my relief, that it went back to its proper place and behaved itself again. One could always pick out other sufferers with “Daimler knee” – they could be seen limping about the depot in a fair imitation of Laurence Olivier in Richard III.

Roger Cox

22/01/12 – 06:54

Frank 185 was the first Atlantean on the road for Bolton as I recall. And do you further remember an Atlantean was one of the stars of the film The Family Way starring Hayley Mills and Hywell Bennett

Tony

20/03/12 – 07:16

How I agree with Chris and Roger regarding modern vehicles and drivers, I always think with todays buses it is a case of point and steer and then hit the brakes almost as hard this combined with built in retarders and fully automatic gearboxes that nearly always change into low gear just as the bus stops make for an unpleasant ride. I know traffic conditions today demand some easing of the drivers lot but the semi-automatic systems of not so long ago were very easy to use and left the driver in control and able to give a smooth ride, however the easy use also meant easy abuse if a driver couldn’t be bothered but at least you had a choice. I too learnt to drive on a PD1 JK 9113 of Eastbourne Corporation in 1962 and I am glad that I was able to drive the characterful and interesting buses around at that time and not the mainly ugly soulless modern types at least I could give my passengers a comfortable ride at any time.

Diesel Dave

20/03/12 – 11:20

The seventies film Spring and Port Wine starring James Mason was also filmed in the Bolton area. Scenes on a bus were shot using the Leyland/Park Royal demonstrator KTD 551C. This bus later ran for Woods of Mirfield

Chris Hough

20/03/12 – 16:04

Right, Dave. You can often barely move in a “smooth modern bus” between stops because of the G-forces and sloping floors. You can only stand up and hang on! There is no need for stop/go driving like this: we can all do it, but not with passengers!
In the good old days you had long smooth braking- because that’s all they would do- with sound effects: although engine-braking using a Daimler preselector could explore the rev range a bit….
PS Anyone found a recording of a CVD6?

Joe

21/03/12 – 07:20

I’m waiting for someone to come up with that CVD6 recording as well. If there are no takers, is anyone planning a visit to the next Lincoln event? Could be a possibility to capture the sounds of the ex-Colchester Roberts vehicle – preferably with some hill starts!

Stephen Ford

21/03/12 – 07:22

There is of course another factor to take into account, buses now don’t have conductors, and at one time it was a easier to just drive the bus properly rather than suffer a constant ear bashing from a conductor who found it hard to walk around the bus unless it was stationary.

Ronnie Hoye

23/03/12 – 06:35

Ronnie has a very valid point regarding smooth driving and conductors as I started my career on the buses as a conductor and you very quickly learnt to pick out the best drivers to work with and those you hated your weeks of bumps and bruises with. When I started driving I tried not to do the things I hated as a conductor this I think kept me honest and I hope comfortable for the next 41 years. I find this site the most enjoyable on the internet as it lets me ramble on to my hearts content about the good old days to like minded soul, long may you prosper.

Diesel Dave

10/04/12 – 06:28

Totally agree with the comments on modern buses. They just don’t register with me at all and I have no interest in them, whereas proper buses have a character and individuality of their own. I never worked on the buses but travelled on them thousands of times as a child in the 60s and a teenager in the 70s when I used them for school. I lived in Radcliffe, and my favourites were Bury Corporations PD3s with Weymann bodies.
I remember them struggling up the very steep hill at the bottom of Stand Lane in Radcliffe on the way to Whitefield on the 65 with a full load and used to admire the way the drivers coped with these huge heavy looking buses.
The PD2s always seemed a bit lighter and easier to handle, don’t know if this was true. My interest started to go in the 80s after the ex municipal buses had gone. I liked the Selnec/GMT Standard Atlanteans/Fleetlines as well, but after those I sort of lost interest and after deregulation I completely gave up

David Pomfret

10/04/12 – 11:33

Re Smooth driving. As with David above, I have never had any involvement with buses except as a passenger when young so reading that a lot of favourite vehicles were misery to drive is very fascinating. From my first driving lesson I was always told to imagine that I had an egg in a dish stuck to the bonnet and that I had to keep it from rolling out. Does anyone remember that Jackie Stewart the racing driver ran a promotion with Ford Motor Co, in 1973/4 whereby drivers were challenged to drive a Ford Cortina Mark III with a tennis ball in a dish held to the bonnet only by a woollen blanket?
As regards bus driving, an old family friend, Lionel Coles who drove for Bristol Omnibus Company (often on the 88 to Radstock) was always very smooth but I also remember the gearbox crunches that so many K/KSW’s suffered in my school journey home on the number 1 to Cribbs Causeway when climbing the hill to Eagle Road, Brislington, Bristol. The fitters must have drained many ounces of iron filings!!

Richard Leaman

17/04/12 – 14:22

Southampton’s Atlanteans were of the East Lancs “Bolton” style, but without the fairing over the bustle. They used the Bolton style of livery, with the Manchester shade of red – Bill Lewis came to Southampton from Manchester. Strangely, he didn’t apply this lighter shade to the Arabs, Titans and Regents. When Blackpool started to buy Atlanteans, the Committee visited the East Lancs factory, where some were being built for Southampton, and adapted Southampton’s livery to have the extra stripe.

Pete Davies

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

04/01/16 – 06:21

Any owner can do what they like with a vehicle. And having owned a North Western Bristol L5G I know many of the problems. Initially I was anxious to have it in original cream roof livery and did so but red roof spray paint colours would be just as legitimate. It spent 5 of its 13 years in service like that. The important thing us to have records that show changes.
CDB 206 is now in better condition then when I had it. Proper full length grab rails at entrance now. But the roof is all cream and no grey rectangle in the middle. Often forgotten.
Does it natter? Not now, but we should comment for the records. The generations that come after us will have no memory at all. We owe it to them to keep accurate records.

Bob Bracegirdle

Southampton Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – OCR 149F – 105

Southampton Corporation
1968
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
East Lancs H45/31F

OCR 149F entered service with Southampton City Transport on 1 July 1968 as fleet number 105, (note – not Southampton Corporation Transport since elevation to City status in 1964. (But posted here under Corporation to keep the Southampton fleet postings under one heading.) This vehicle acted as a “prototype” for the other 19 of the batch, which entered service in September and October of that year. Despite this, the fleet list in the otherwise-excellent history by A K Macfarlane-Watt records her as OCR 149G but as can be seen below was clearly ‘F’ registered.

She is an Atlantean PDR1/1 with East Lancs H76F bodywork. She is seen in Portswood Road, parked outside the depot, on 31 August 1981. This was the final day of ‘conductor’ operation in Southampton (at least until Deregulation) except for the occasional failure in the system when a Fitter would be called upon to drive while an Inspector took the fares. I experienced this several times!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

26/01/14 – 17:33

It was at about this time that Leyland started sorting out the Atlantean’s problems. Between 1968 and 1972, improvements were made which culminated in the introduction of the AN68 in 1972. This is what the Atlantean should have been from the start and it became by far the best first generation rear-engined decker. The Daimler Fleetline was always a good bus and, after take over by LMC, replaced the dreadful disasters known as the PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans as Leyland’s low-height deckers. By offering both the Gardner and the Leyland engines, all bases were covered. Of course the AN68 eventually formed the backbone of both Southampton and Portsmouth fleets – and myriad others too.

David Oldfield

27/01/14 – 08:14

Thanks for this Pete. I’ve been doing some research into the end of crew operation around the UK and the previous information I had obtained (from where, I don’t recall) was that Southampton’s last crew routes were the 7 and 9 from Lordshill to Weston around 1984/5. So whilst that info is quite detailed, it’s substantially different from 31/08/1981. I’ll trust your date with your personal experiences!

Dave Towers

27/01/14 – 09:28

David O and Dave T, thanks for your comments. My first experience of a Daimler Fleetline was in Birmingham, going back to City Centre on the 55 route from Saltley after an interview: 3344. I thought then how much better it seemed to perform than the Atlanteans Ribble were using. The vehicle illustrated was simply “parked” and not taking part in the formal City Tour, with the Guy Arabs and Regent Vs all sporting clusters of balloons. Photos available of them if required! By 1984/5, we were very much into the driver only era, even with the local NBC operator, Hants & Dorset. The Routemasters introduced after Deregulation were withdrawn in January 1989.

Pete Davies

29/06/14 – 17:23

There seems to be some confusion about dates here. 31 August 1981 (a bank holiday) was the last day of operation of rear platform buses in Southampton, and was celebrated with a tour and commemorative tickets. Crew operation did, however, continue, but with Atlanteans, and I would think that 1985 would have been the correct date for the introduction of full OPO. In 1981, I was working at the Civic Centre (city hall) in an administrative capacity, but in 1983 I transferred to the Transport Department, and we still had conductors then – as Dave Towers correctly says, on the 7/9 group of services between Weston and the Lordshill/Aldermoor area.
The end of crew operation was accompanied by the introduction of the no change farebox system, which was considered in certain quarters to be an unwise decision in the period before deregulation. Given the time spent discussing this aspect of the change, I would be reasonably sure that the conductors continued until 1985.
Deregulation came in October 1986, and Southern Vectis started their competitive Solent Blue Line venture the following spring, with conductors and making great play of the fact that they gave change. SCT could not ignore that, and introduced Routemasters soon after. Later on, the preserved Regent V that had run the ‘last open platform bus’ tour (401) was transferred back to the bus operator from the Museums Department, and re-entered service. Some of us, who had travelled on that last open platform tour, wondered if we had a case for a refund!

Nigel Frampton

30/06/14 – 07:03

Thanks Nigel. I’ll change my spreadsheet back to “c. 1985” and hope that somewhere some more information may come to light!

Dave Towers

30/06/14 – 11:38

Welcome to the forum, Nigel. Do you still live in Shirley? I bow to your “insider” knowledge!

Pete Davies

01/07/14 – 06:49

Thanks for the welcome, Pete. No, not in Shirley any more – but in south west Germany, near to Freiburg!

Nigel Frampton

01/07/14 – 10:54

Be fair, Nigel, Shirley wasn’t THAT bad!

Chris Hebbron

Kevin

Yes, it was most definitely F and all the others were G, even though they were still 0CR with sequential numbers either side of 149. I first saw this “prototype” on display at the Southampton Show and was very excited about the new fleet numbering, although I was wondering what would happen when the numbers caught up to the remaining Guy Arabs 164 and 167 (when they did, of course, these were renumbered 64 and 67 respectively). I seem to remember that one of the next batch of Atlanteans, TTR —H was never delivered because it caught fire and there was forever a gap of one in the Fleet Numbers. Happy days!

Kevin

30/06/17 – 06:39

Kevin – you are quite correct in saying that one of the TTR-H Atlanteans was never delivered (it would have been number 123).
To be strictly correct, it was the bodyworks that caught fire, and several other vehicles were destroyed as well. The chassis of 123 was exported to Australia, where (if I recall correctly) it received a single deck body.

Nigel Frampton

Huddersfield Corporation – Karrier MS2 – CVH 743 – 543

Copyright Ian Wild

Huddersfield Corporation
1947 rebodied 1961
Karrier MS2
East Lancs H40/32R

On a day trip to Huddersfield on 30th May 1967 I travelled on service 40 to Bradley, Leeds Road on 543. Trolleybuses were replaced by motor buses on this cross town route to Longwood a few weeks later on 12th July. In those relatively traffic free days the trolleys could easily turn in the wide junction on the main A62 Leeds Road at Bradley which is now a major multi lane traffic signal controlled intersection. Had I known more about the system then I would have travelled on the other half of the service to the more picturesque Longwood terminus where after from negotiating narrow streets the trolleys turned by reversing on to a concrete platform built out above the sharply falling ground.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

01/09/11 – 11:03

The sight of the trolleybuses poised on that “built out” platform at Longwood always makes me literally cringe with terror. The effects of even a minor brake or other failure, or possibly the slippery wet sole of a driver’s shoe, don’t bear thinking about. I’ve had to do a few hair raising manoeuvres in my time but nothing to compare with this. As a matter of interest, I wonder if there ever were actually any mishaps at this location ??

Chris Youhill

01/09/11 – 11:06

Huddersfield had a strong tradition for re-bodying its trolleybuses and started a scheme in 1950 when 28 pre-war Karrier E6 were done by Roe and this continued with the post-war Karrier MS2 and Sunbeam MS2 from 1955 to 1962. Both Roe and East Lancs supplied new bodies for these MS2s and 41 were done.
I have very fond memories of this fleet and fortunately did ride on most of the routes including the marvellous service to Marsden in the days when many of the original Park Royal Karrier E6s were still in service.
Lovely memories Ian and thank you for this posting of 543.

Richard Fieldhouse

01/09/11 – 11:09

The concrete platform at the Longwood terminus was actually built as a trolleybus turntable, one of only two in the UK the other one being at Christchurch on the Bournemouth system.
On 13th February 1967 Sunbeam S7A 634 of 1959 reversed too far and toppled over into the field below. It was badly damaged and never ran again. In 1965 634 became the last trolleybus in the Huddersfield fleet to receive a full repaint.
For some reason all the Huddersfield trolley’s that were re-bodied were always referred to as rebuilds.

Eric

As requested a closer view of 543.

01/09/11 – 17:57

With respect to the occasion at Longwood when 634 toppled off the reversing platform and ended its career, I had an interesting conversation last year with a fine chap who had been a fitter at Longroyd Bridge depot for years about just this particular incident.
He told me that he knew the chap who had been driving 634 that day, and emphasised what a good young driver he was. Apparently he’d started off on trolleys, had switched over to motor buses, and not long before the accident, had resumed work on the trolleybuses again.
He suggested that during the reversing manoeuvre, 634 had rolled back rather quicker than normal, and the lad panicked a bit, and not thinking straight, had accidentally put his foot on the accelerator instead of the brake pedal, the controls on the trolleys being the reverse of the normal configuration fitted to buses.
According to this gent, the bus wasn’t damaged that badly at all in the fall, but the recovery men made such a mess of getting the vehicle back on its feet that it was summarily written off, a fact which obviously still very much bothered him some forty-three years later!
Out of interest, there’s a photograph of the unfortunate 634 lying in the shrubs and trees off to the side of the turntable in the David and Charles book “The History of the British Trolleybus” published many moons ago.

Dave Careless

02/09/11 – 07:27

Gosh Dave, what a frightening tale about an event which I’m so sorry happened, and especially to a good driver – so regrettably my fears seem to have been justified. I imagine that the driver and conductor must surely have been injured ?? The turntable at Christchurch in Bournemouth was an odd affair but at least it was on terra firma and, being hand operated by the crew, the operation was at speed slow enough to virtually preclude anything untoward.

Chris Youhill

02/09/11 – 07:29

Apparently the batch of which 543 was one of them were actually Sunbeams but all had Karrier badges for some reason.

Spencer

02/09/11 – 11:14

There is another picture of 634 suspended in mid air during recovery operations in “Huddersfield Trolleybuses” by Stephen Lockwood published by Middleton Press in 2002

Eric

02/09/11 – 11:15

The matter of car/bus throttles being between clutch and throttle in the ‘thirties has been mentioned before, but not the reversal of the ‘throttle’ and ‘brake’ positions on trolleybuses. Whether it was universal (it was certainly common), I’m not sure, but I am sure that these aberrations were certainly dangerous! And especially in cases where bus/trolleybus drivers interchanged.

Chris Hebbron

02/09/11 – 11:35

Karrier badged MS2 trolleybuses were also supplied to South Lancashire Transport as 66 to 71 but they were taxed as Sunbeams. As Huddersfield was the “spiritual home” of Karrier up to 1935, it is understandable that they wanted their MS2 trolleybuses badged as Karriers. However this was short-lived as Rootes sold the Sunbeam and Karrier Trolleybus interests to Brockhouse Engineering in 1946, but retained the Karrier name for their use on specialist local authority vehicles such as dust carts and tower wagons.

Richard Fieldhouse

02/09/11 – 14:43

To take the Karrier story on a further step, after the sale to the Rootes Group in July 1935, the bus building part of the business was transferred from Huddersfield to the Sunbeam Moorfield Works in Upper Villiers Street, Wolverhampton, which Rootes had also acquired in October of the same year. Then, in December 1935, AEC became interested in Sunbeam, and the managing director C. W. Reeve and the chairman of AEC both joined the board. Out of this came the production of a Sunbeam bus built on an AEC chassis but powered by a Gardner engine, but very few were sold. By the end of the war AEC had decided to dispose of its interest in Sunbeam, and it was sold to the Brockhouse Group in 1946. The trolleybus side of the business was purchased by Guy from Brockhouse in January 1949, and from then on, all trolleybuses from this source carried the Sunbeam name. In 1953 Guy transferred Sunbeam production to an extension of its own Fallings Park factory. I have gleaned much of this information from the following sites:

Roger Cox

02/09/11 – 14:44

I don’t think the crew were seriously hurt, Chris, at least there was no mention of it during our conversation, but they would undoubtedly have been bruised and shaken up. I think the incident definitely belongs in the category of “serious dewirement”!
Thanks for the tip about the recovery picture, Eric, must see if I can go about obtaining a copy of that book.

Dave Careless

Try //www.abebooks.co.uk/ will deliver over to you I think.

Peter

07/06/14 – 08:29

I have several photocopies of that accident with 634. The original newspaper article and photo’s ,I sent to The Trolleybus Museum at Doncaster.
I left Huddersfield in 1962, and England in 1967, but to this day retain my enthusiasm for my childhood (and adulthood!) hobby of Huddersfield Trolleybuses.
They were all magnificent , and well maintained vehicles, and I saw them all from 401 to 640 inclusive.Think I rode on almost all of them.

Rodney Senior, Hampton, New Brunswick, Canada.

06/04/15 – 07:23

I worked as a conductor on Huddersfield trolleybuses in the summer of 1962. My regular run was on the 40 Marsden-Bradley. Students often filled for staff on holiday and I did two weeks on the 90 with a most competent Pakistani driver.

At the now locked Longwood (Dod Lea) turntable (and many other reversal points) the conductor was required to be outside guiding the driver to reverse–with his whistle. Yes, this was occasionally breeched in bad weather but I suspect at this accident the bemused conductor was safely on firm ground.

Tom Parkinson

07/04/15 – 06:54

Thanks for the photos Tom. The trolleybus is at Fixby Triangle, less than a mile from my home of the last 40+ years – so very familiar. It would be a good run on the 40 out to Marsden, I still enjoy that journey today especially on a double decker.

Ian Wild

24/02/17 – 17:33

I loved the Huddersfield trolleybuses and was lucky enough to get a seat on the last public trolleybus back in ’68. Seems like yesterday in some ways.
I only ever managed to ride the Longwood, Bradley, Waterloo, Lindley and Outlane routes. Mind you, I was only about 13 when the last of the others closed, so being a Manchester lad I maybe didn’t do too bad.
First introduction to them was as a kid in Uncle Harry’s car visiting some relatives – suffice it to say the route taken was by Marsden, and the trolleys were still active over it. To say I was hooked is putting it mildly.

Brian Wainwright

Ronsway – Guy Wulfrunian – 35 VTF

Copyright David Lennard

Ronsway of Hemel Hempstead
1961
Guy Wulfrunian 6LW
East Lancs H37/29R

Along with a group of other enthusiasts in the early 70’s I visited the Provincial Hoeford garage on a trip from Eastbourn. The outing was organised by Clive Wilkin on a most unusual vehicle, namely an East Lancs bodied Guy Wulfrunian. One of the pair new to Accrington Corporation but by then owned by Ronsway of Hemel Hempstead. These two were unique in that they were 28ft long with open rear platforms a Gardner 6LW engine and manual gearboxes, our steed for a very interesting day was ex Accrington No 156 registration 35 VTF.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

23/12/12 – 10:50

Very interesting, Dave. I have a “bought” slide from the Dale Tringham collection, probably taken on that same visit, which Dale has as March 1969. It was quite clearly taken at Hoeford, as evidenced by the tram tracks. Either way, most Wulfrunians didn’t seem to have very long lives with their original owners. I think those which went new to West Riding lasted longest in that category.

Pete Davies

23/12/12 – 10:51

There was a particular reason for the spec of these vehicles – but I’ve an article in preparation for submission very early in the New Year where they feature, so I’ll leave it until then.

Phil Blinkhorn

23/12/12 – 11:35

I’d heard about these. Pretty bizarre really. Can you remember what happened in the space where the engine/front NS wheel ought to be? It has a door, but the driver had an engine in the way of his cab, presumably- so did it connect to the passenger space? Was it for the conductor, to maintain meaningful dialogue with the driver? Were there no Arabs to be had then? No doubt Phil will reveal all?
Pete- West Riding became the resting place for homeless Wulfrunians, until- possibly- NBC arrived with the resources to replace them, sometimes with older Lodekkas etc. I think these two were an oddity too far, though.

Joe

23/12/12 – 12:46

Too odd even for West Riding, Joe? Wait a while, there’s something in the pipeline that’s even more extreme!

Pete Davies

23/12/12 – 15:04

Joe, the floor level at the front seems quite high, given that there’s a substantial step up to access. And can I make out what looks like a bulk-head and window to the right of what looks like somebody standing next to the driver? Perhaps the door was for no other reason than to allow access to the engine compartment. If Diesel Dave rode on the beast then perhaps he can enlighten us . . . I recall reading somewhere that the absence of a front entrance on these vehicles allowed the engine to be positioned in the centre-line of the vehicle rather than off-set to the offside, and the line of the windscreens above that rather nasty “gash” grille suggests that the engine mounting may also have been higher compared to “conventional” Wulfrunians. Except for the added complexity of air-suspension its hard to see what couldn’t have been offered by an Arab, and you’d have thought a small municipal operator might have been best advised to steer clear of needlessly complicated design features – unless the set-back front axle offered a tighter turning circle that was needed for a particular route? . . . I’m eager to read Phil’s explanation come the new year!

Philip Rushworth

23/12/12 – 17:10

According to R N Hannay’s book on the marque, 35 VTF was new to Accrington in 9-61 and sold in 1-68, acquired by Ronsway in 3-68 and disposed of 9-69, acquired by Byley, Middlewich in 10-69 and disposed of in 2-72 for scrap.
36 VTF was new to Accrington in 10-61 and sold in 1-68, acquired by Ronsway in 3-68 and disposed of in 8-68, acquired by Biss, Bishops Stortford, in 8-68 and disposed of 5-70, acquired by Gilbert (Avro) Stanford-le-Hope in 6-70 and disposed of in 8-70, acquired by Spencer, High Wycombe in 9-70 and disposed of 7-71 for scrap. Await PB,s article with great interest.

John Darwent

23/12/12 – 17:11

I wonder, with the staircase being at the back if this eased the load a little on the front suspension.

Eric Bawden

24/12/12 – 07:03

The dates John quotes from Hannay seem to match the information I have about my bought slide. Diesel Dave’s memory is, of course, entitled to be suspect as the event was over 40 years ago. Now, what was I doing yesterday???

Pete Davies

24/12/12 – 07:05

Eric, I doubt the position of the staircase would remove that much load from the front suspension.
The rear staircase would increase the number of upper deck seats towards the front and add to the load at the front
If the manual gearbox is mounted further forward than the mid-mounted underfloor semi auto on the front entrance ones then that could also add to the load at the front.
The fuel tank and batteries on the front entrance ones with West Riding are mounted to the rear of the back axle, not sure where these are on the Accrington ones is, forward of the rear axle again would add to the load at the front

Andrew Beever

24/12/12 – 07:05

On a group some time ago Dale posted an interior view of this bus on this trip. It had a bulkhead in the lower saloon in the conventional place with five rear-facing seats. In fact it looked fairly conventional downstairs.

David Beilby

24/12/12 – 12:52

I have a memory from around 1970 of following VTF35 eastwards over the “Cat & Fiddle” towards Buxton. It made very slow progress indeed.
I seem to remember it still wearing Accrington’s colours. At the time, I thought it was with a majorettes’ troupe, but it was probably on hire from Byley Stores & Garage Ltd. (a wonderful name for a bus operator) from the Middlewich area. It was probably bought via the local dealer, Martin’s of Weaverham.
Google throws up a view of it in Byley’s cream and red livery.

Dave Farrier

24/12/12 – 14:34

I am quite happy to accept that the date of this trip was indeed March 1969 as my original date was only a very rough guess as I admit to the sin of not making notes of dates etc.
I can shed some light on the queries raised regarding the cab area which was in fact very much like Southdown’s PD3’s with a large hinged bonnet panel hinged along the centre line which along with the N/S external door gave access to the engine as it also had a Cave- Browne- Cave heating system fitted, shown by the grills either side of the destination display, there would have been no radiator in the engine bay the person seen next to the driver is in fact kneeling on the bonnet.
The engine was indeed fitted in the centre of the chassis making the drivers cab much more roomy than the normal Wulfrunian set-up. With regards to the position of the fuel tank I have an O/S photo of the bus which shows the filler cap to be behind the rear wheel arch indicating that the tank was most likely under the stairs, I don’t have any idea about the position of the batteries however. I seem to remember that it gave a reasonably comfortable ride and the heater system was quite effective but as Peter says my memory is not always as good as I would like.
Finally I’ll take this chance to wish Peter and all the many other contributors and readers on this site all the very best for Christmas and the New Year.

Diesel Dave

24/12/12 – 14:38

I’m beginning to get this, and await Phil with interest… Did they have a “normal” height floor because of the central transmission with a step into the saloon from the platform? …and therefore room for all the stuff under the floor, as usual…. could there even be a shorter front overhang, so less see-saw & a bit less toe-out: are you sure this isn’t an Arab 6!

Joe

24/12/12 – 16:12

The gear box was in the same position as the semi automatic box and the batteries were at the immediate front nearside in a tray forward of the nearside access to the engine at the lowest level of the chassis. There were five seats across the front bulkhead. If I recall, and the chassis photo seems to bear this out, the floor was flat. The fuel tank was under the stairs.
I’ve finished the article which includes more info and a link to a photo of the actual chassis and submitted it to Peter.
A Happy Christmas to everyone.

Phil Blinkhorn

Well done, Joe! 35 and 36VTF were indeed the prototypes for the Arab VI. Needless to say, the style was far too complicated for even the operators of the Wulfrunian!
Happy Christmas to all of you!

Pete Davies

25/12/12 – 06:23

Perhaps a Wulfrunian/Arab cross would be more accurate as the vehicle description is Guy Wulfrunian based on the chassis numbers which were FDW74920 and FDW74970, the W indicating Wulfrunian.

Phil Blinkhorn

25/12/12 – 10:58

The Wulfrunian was unusual in being one of the few models to be built in front, forward and rear entrance format. Most were front, Accrington’s were rear and Wolverhampton’s 71 had a forward entrance. I was going to say this was unique but the same can be said for the Routemaster if the solitary FRM is included.
I was led to believe that Accrington bought the rear entrance pair because Guy had withdrawn the Arab from sale at the time and wanted to standardise on the Wulfrunian. No doubt Phil will enlighten us and I too look forward to his post.

Philip Halstead

25/12/12 – 18:29

Whilst Guy announced they would finish regular production of the Arab IV in 1960, they continued to build examples for regular customers and did so until 1962 when the Arab V was available. Lancashire United, for instance, took batches in 1961 and 1962.

18:47

Having emerged from my post Christmas lunch haze, I can add Burton, Chester and Wolverhampton to the list of operators which ordered and received Arab IVs between the official finish of production in 1960 and the arrival of the Arab V.

19:07

I’ve been trying to work out where the idea of an Arab VI referred to by Joe and Pete comes from.
The Wulfrunian was already a failure and the Arab V design was well under way when Jaguar took over the company and there is no way Jaguar would have countenanced trying to sell anything new that resembled a Wulfrunian, although they kept faith with West Riding by fulfilling their orders and giving spares and engineering support to all operators as did British Leyland.
The only mention of an Arab VI I can find is on the Internet pages of the Outer Circle Bus Tours of Birmingham where a typo has their 2976 as an Arab VI.

Phil Blinkhorn

26/12/12 07:18

I suppose you could add to that the Daimler Fleetline.
Obviously the vast majority were front entrance but thanks to Mr. Ronald Edgley-Cox we have Walsall Corporation’s two “extreme” Fleetlines, the 25ft long no.1 which only had a forward door, and ‘Big Bertha’ XDH 56G the 36ft Fleetline that had a rear exit.

Eric Bawden

26/12/12 – 10:36

I wasn’t being entirely serious. It just seemed that having centred and raised the engine with central transmission (and raised the floor?) and reduced the front overhang to something not far off a half-cab, the result is getting more Arab than Wulfrunian.

Joe

26/12/12 – 18:01

I was thinking along the same convoluted lines as Joe was. Sorry if I upset the equilibrium!

Pete Davies

26/12/12 – 18:03

By an odd coincidence I emailed a pal recently with visions of a Guy Arab VI, to be a low-floor rival to the Bristol Lodekka, and then what do I see but Joe and Pete’s references to the same phantom bus! All of which prompts me to wonder whether Guy actually did have such plans. I’d hate to have seen Dennis’s market undermined, but investing in a drop-centre axle version of the Arab V might have saved Guy–at least for a while.
In 1963 I hitched up to Lancashire and spent a couple of happy days riding round on the unbelievably varied and characterful buses then running. One highlight was an evening ride up onto moorland on one of the Accrington Wulfrunians, gently swaying on the air suspension and looking down at the lights in the valley below. Something else that struck me were the spotless toilets at Blackburn, in contrast to those I’d used one May the first at Brighton, where you had to pay to wash your hands. So much for the “grimy North”…

Ian Thompson

27/12/12 – 07:07

The date of the visit to Gosport & Fareham by Wulfrunian 35 VTF was Sunday 30th March 1969. ‘Twas me who organised the trip on behalf of the Eastbourne Lion Preservation Group, owners of Leyland Lion JK 8418.

Clive Wilkin

27/12/12 – 07:10

It’s interesting to speculate regarding further Arab development. The Arab V design was well under way in the drawing office as the Wulfrunian was being launched so Guy obviously had decided to hedge its bets and cater to its more conservative client base as well as tempting Gardner devotees with the Wulfrunian, presumably in the hope of winning orders from Daimler customers wanting an Atlantean style bus, as the Fleetline was not announced until the year following the unveiling of the Wulfrunian.
In this they were doing nothing different to Leyland and eventually Daimler in offering an advanced design alongside basically traditional models.
Where they went awry was in trying to pack in every new and basically untried idea into one chassis and, having seen Foden’s and Leyland’s efforts with rear engines, then almost contrarily kept a traditional engine drive train layout, albeit with a drop centre rear axle.
I remember attending an airshow at Church Fenton in 1967 where West Riding had the contract for public transport onto the airfield and provided no less than 30 Wulfrunians – a mixture of the red and green fleets. By that time the type’s reputation was irretrievably mud and Guy as a marque was on its last legs yet, for all its problems, the type looked very modern and much more designed than the Fleetlines and Atlanteans that were my daily fare in Manchester.
Had the phrase “keep it simple stupid” been in common parlance in Wolverhampton in the late 1950s, Guy may well have produced a front engined, front entrance double decker with a flat floor, a synchromesh or even a constant speed box which would have been a front entrance Arab. They could then have introduced the fancy brakes, suspension, whatever gearboxes and anything else as options or improvements after thorough testing on mule chassis once the type and layout had gained acceptance and orders.
The extra two and a half inches width available from 1963 would have been useful to increase the driver’s cab and the introduction of ergonomic design during the 1960s could have further enhanced the driving experience.
Certainly the experiences of Atlantean and Fleetline operators in the early 1960s left the door wide open for a simple, front entrance double decker but even Volvo, a decade and more later with all their inventiveness and sales clout only sold just over a thousand B55/Ailsa, penny numbers compared to the relatively more complex Atlantean and Fleetline.
There is no doubt that the Arab V was a good bus. LUT, for one, loved theirs and, having tried Fleetlines, kept ordering the Arab – simplicity and reliability overcoming any worries about the vehicles looking dated to the passenger on the street.

Phil Blinkhorn

27/12/12 – 10:43

I’ll only digress briefly here, but I was always sad that the Ailsa Volvo had such limited success. I had quite a bit of experience in driving three of them, and have ridden in many more. From the driving perspective they were superb, with faultless road holding, and the skilful design of the front platform and staircase area gave perfectly adequate passenger circulating room. The performance, particularly with such a tiny engine (albeit turbocharged), was quite amazing although admittedly when fully laden uphill they took their time. The three which I drove were GCN 1/2/3 which were disposed of indecently early by Newcastle’s PTE successor – I forget the exact circumstances but I seem to recall that there was a TGWU issue and that the original braking system left a little to be desired under heavy workloads – this was taken care of in the later bulk production. To the enthusiast driver the transmission was a joy and, at the risk of a volley or protest from the Southall area, gave a very likeable aural impression of a Mark 111 Regent. The usual Alexander body was handsome, well finished, and the vehicle handled 79 seated passengers plus standing very well indeed. I can’t comment on how the engineering folks found the Ailsa but I wish its success had been more widespread.

Chris Youhill

28/12/12 – 06:33

It is interesting that the Wulfrunian is now seen as a complete failure in concept and in execution.
However, a test several years ago by the Classic Bus magazine (in its vastly better days under Gavin Booth) concluded that the Wulfrunian was far from being the “Blunderbus” that it has often been labelled. Certainly, during my time in Halifax in the mid sixties, I took many opportunities to ride upon West Riding Wulfrunians around Leeds and Wakefield, and I found their road performance to be impressive. Certainly some of the advanced engineering features proved troublesome, but most of these would have been sorted out had the Guy company not landed itself in a precarious financial state by expending huge sums in setting up its own sales outlets in South Africa in 1955. By the time that the Wulfrunian’s reliability problems emerged, Guy was technically insolvent, and there was no money available to eliminate the shortcomings. One major defect lay in the braking system, which was hydraulically operated with air assistance. The shrouding effect of the bodywork, plus the front location of a hot engine and its exhaust pipework, caused the brake fluid to boil and destroy all brake action. The fitment of a full air braking system would have eliminated that problem entirely. Other problems could surely have been sorted given the cash – the early Atlanteans had some major, costly faults that were ultimately designed out – but Guy had no funds to remedy the Wulfrunian’s failings.
Some information on the Wulfrunian may be found here at this site.

Roger Cox

28/12/12 – 09:55

It’s many years since I saw the leaflet which forms the basis of the piece linked to in Roger’s post.
If you read the blurb in the knowledge of Guy’s parlous financial position, it becomes clear that the Wulfrunian was their great white hope – or their vehicle of hopeless optimism.
It reads as if they have found, in one design, the panacea for all the problems of the industry. Claims about the chassis versatility for different body formats and claims regarding the input of various operators have, in hindsight, shades of how they designed a camel to respond to the need for a racehorse by throwing in every idea they had been given and every technical development they could find.
Of course the major flaws are highlighted in the opening sentence and the list of salient features. The arrogance of the sentence “Air suspension development at Guy has now reached a virtual end” towards the end of the piece really shows just how the company had deluded itself into basking in the glory its golden dreams of conquering the market with its yet untried product.
By the time the Wulfrunian was launched, Leyland had scaled back its Atlantean to a much more simple vehicle albeit with faults and complications.
Had Guy not been so desperate for cash flow, they too may have taken a second look and offered a simpler vehicle capable of development alongside its proven Arab.

Phil Blinkhorn

28/12/12 – 10:57

Chris Youhill rightly praises the Ailsa I travelled on both Alexander and Van Hool bodied examples and found both a very pleasant vehicle for the average passenger. As to the sound effects superb! Some of the late lamented Black Prince’s examples sounded like London tube trains in their later years!

Chris Hough

28/12/12 – 11:48

That technical leaflet is revealing, Roger: operators are looking for simple vehicles with reasonable comfort/ride and running economy. Although a Wulfrunian running was a good vehicle – with Gardner engine & Roe body it had to be- but there seem- even to a layman- to be some awful design flaws. Trying to squeeze the driver, old-style engine and single entrance/exit and even the staircase into the one width seems pretty dotty. That’s why the Accrington version seems better. I love the bit about having to clamber over the engine to reach the driver- were they ever OPO? (or then, OMO?) Having so much weight cantilevered at the front seems dotty, too: and look at the exhaust…. wrapped over the front suspension… and the fuel tank, desperately balancing the two equal but light/heavy overhangs but surely so vulnerable to a rear full/quarter shunt. And why are they so proud of no power steering? Was it untried technology then? On the other hand, cars at that time found 4 wheel disc brakes difficult…. wasn’t it never park a Mk2 Jag on the handbrake alone?

Joe

28/12/12 – 11:49

For those interested in why Accrington bought their oddball Wulfrunians, the answer is in my article “Days Out With Martin Hannett”

Phil Blinkhorn

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

20/05/13 – 07:25

Re the Accrington Wulfrunians, I remember driving south on the A5 in 1968, going home after a day marshalling at Mallory Park race track, and I believe I saw one, possibly two of the Accrington buses in a scrapyard, on the east side of the A5. Reading the above comments makes me doubt what I saw !
Was I mistaken, or was the site being used by someone operating the Wulfrunians ?
I will always regret that, when I was in Bradford in late 1971 – sampling the last few trolleybus routes – I spurned the chance of a ride on a West Riding Wulfrunian which was waiting at an on-street terminus.It was in green livery.

Ernie Jupp

Huddersfield Corporation – Guy Arab IV – PVH 991 – 191

Huddersfield Corporation
1959
Guy Arab IV
East Lancs H37/28R

This bus looked very dated for its actual age if you think about it most Arab IVs had the “Birmingham tin fronts” as they were called which looked more modern. The Leyland Titan on the other hand could get away with the exposed radiator look probably because there was a bit more to it than the narrow un-shiny Guy version depicted here.
This bus passed to W.Y.P.T.E. on the 1st of April 1974 and became fleet number 4191 and no doubt was painted their green and white, which was OK when clean but terrible when dirty, which most of there buses were for about 90% of the time.

W.Y.P.T.E. stands for “West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive”

Huddersfield only had two of these Arab VIs this one and its sister, registration number PVH 990 fleet number 190 they both had Gardner 6LX 10.45 litre six cylinder engines.

Spencer

Two really excellent buses, the 6LX gave them hill flattening performance, really desperate shame Guy decided to throw all it’s eggs in the Wulfrunian basket which along with the Warrior truck had them bankrupt, the GUY Big J was designed to be a Daimler truck and this kept the factory going but this model was gone and by the time sense returned it was too late, a last flourish with the Mark V was too late as rear engines and one manning were to be the way forward.

Christopher

I couldn’t be 100% certain, but I don’t think either of these fine machines were painted into “buttermilk and emerald” by the PTE. I also seem to remember that they had two pedal semi automatic transmission as opposed to the more normal Guy clutch and gearbox system – can anyone remember for certain ??

Chris Youhill

Yes, they were definitely semi-automatic. Huddersfield had no double-deckers with manual gearboxes at all.

Peter Williamson

27/04/11 – 07:37

I had the pleasure of driving 191 during it’s short preservation career. I can confirm it was, as Peter says, a semi-automatic gearbox which had a very bad transmission oil leak. Apparently 190 had also suffered from this malady during its service days and the gearbox had been replaced by a one from a Daimler CVG6LX using a Leyland PD2 prop-shaft! Neither 190 or 191 received PTE livery both remaining in the later simplified Corporation livery. Sadly 191 was sold for scrap due to storage and other difficulties.

Eric

27/04/11 – 18:07

Guy’s original problem, Christopher, was its ill-judged entry into financing vehicles sold on the HP in South Africa, rather than merely selling vehicles through local agents, as previously. This strained its finances at the very time the Wulfrunian’s lack of development/testing came to the fore, and then going under. It did fairly well under Jaguar control, but was never going to get the support it deserved with the dominant part of British Leyland. It certainly never got any money to modernise and continue to produce its excellent vehicles at competitive cost, hence it was shut down.
But it was the self-inflicted South African venture which initially sealed its fate, sad to say. The Wulfrunian was an aberration: usually its vehicles were well-designed, well-built and well-tested before being released to buyers. A good example is when London Transport first took delivery of its somewhat troublesome austerity Guy Arabs – Guy actually sent many of its engineers to London and even told them to ride on its buses to identify problems and iron out the problems! They were soon sorted!
As an amusing side-issue, when Guy improved its gearboxes on later austerity Guys, it finally changed the gate from the reversed way (that is with first & second to the right and third and fourth to the left, London Transport was faced with confused drivers where both types were based at the same garage. It chopped a couple of inches off the new model’s gear levers; a satisfactory solution, it seems. But I digress!

Chris Hebbron

Warrington Corporation – Foden PVD6 – OED 217 – 112

Warrington Corporation
1956
Foden PVD6
East Lancs H30/28R

We don’t see many Foden buses south of Birmingham, and we don’t see many Warrington buses down here either, so here is a view which fits both categories. OED 217 is a Foden PVD6 from 1956, when she was built for Warrington (still in Lancashire at that time!) Corporation. She has an East Lancs H58R body and is seen in the St Catherine’s Park & Ride site in Winchester, on 1 January, 2010, during one of those famous King Alfred Running Days.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

13/10/13 – 08:11

As I said, the day after this was photographed – having ridden on it – a beautiful bus; superbly restored and expertly driven.

David Oldfield

13/10/13 – 14:43

The vehicle looks superb, with very handsome bodywork.
I saw another Warrington Foden PVD6 a couple of weeks ago, parked alongside track, at Onibury level crossing, on the A49, just south of Craven Arms, Salops. Impossible to stop or go back because it is a narrow, busy, road and parking appeared to be difficult. It appears to be fleet No. 102 (MED168) dating from 1954, with a Crossley body, not too dissimilar from the above one, from the brief glimpse I got (wife was driving). It was parked in the open air and looks a bit sad. I hope it won’t go the way of all metal. Incidentally, from a brief visit to Warrington some yeaasrs ago, I seem to recall the destination blind, “NOT IN SERVICE – SORRY! How polite!

Chris Hebbron

13/10/13 – 18:41

David Oldfield’s review of this same New Years Day out in Winchester appears in the “ARTICLES” section on this site!

Pete Davies

14/10/13 – 08:16

I can’t resist a digression here Chris H when you mention Onibury. Do you know Stokesay Court, a wonderful old mansion which lies in glorious grounds. It was taken over as a military hospital in WW1 and my Dad recuperated there from awful injuries on The Somme. The owners by the turn of the century were experiencing financial difficulty in maintaining the place, understandably, until a film company came looking for a stately home for an epic movie and Stokesay Court was chosen – so “Atonement” has to all intents and purposes saved the beautiful old place. Apologies, and now back to Warrington.

Chris Youhill

15/10/13 – 07:18

I went to visit Stokesay, en passant, some months after seeing the slightly flawed ‘Atonement’, but it only took pre-booked tours. We walked around the impressive building and grounds, then moved on. Frustrating, Chris!
A couple of weeks ago, we didn’t have time!

Chris Hebbron

15/10/13 – 11:34

Chris, I was very fortunate indeed as regards Stokesay Court. Among my Dad’s belongings were a couple of sepia postcards of the place – he never actually mentioned it – and it always filled me with curiosity and so, before the “Atonement” period, I decided to take a couple of night’s B & B in the Craven Arms and just look at the place from outside for a bit of “closure.” I took the few mementos with me and asked at the local Tourist Office where I was told that the Court was, of course, a private residence with no public access. I briefly told the helpful ladies the reasons for my visit, expecting that would be the end of the matter. “Just a minute” said one, and went to an adjacent room where she could be heard making a phone call, and explaining to whoever was on the other end that “there’s a gentleman ‘ere with documents and postcards etc etc.” She returned and I was stunned and delighted to be told “Go straight there now, and Miss Caroline Magnus will talk to you and show you round.” Can you imagine my feelings in, I think 2001, to enter the place where seventy odd years before my wounded Dad had recovered from the horrors of the Somme. Miss Magnus (owner of the Court) was most charming and interesting and spent some time with me. She was particularly taken with the khaki military hymn/prayer book – a copy of which was given to each convalescent soldier – which was signed in good old “Swan” blue/black ink by her forbear who was the owner at the time – the inscription reads :-
“Sergeant Youhill, 15 West Yorks. Hoping this will help you and bring you happy memories of Stokesay Court Onibury Shropshire. Margaret Rotton.”
The book is one of my most treasured possessions. “15 West Yorks” was of course the “Leeds Pals” who were practically obliterated on the Somme.
With renewed apologies to the good townsfolk of Warrington – now hold very tight please !!

Chris Youhill

16/10/13 – 06:52

Looking at this photo brings it home to me just how much we have lost with the virtual demise of municipal transport. Here we have an operator that bought these vehicles from a small scale manufacturer (at least of buses) no doubt to support local industry with Sandbach being only a stones throw from Warrington. In addition we have a superb livery in what may be termed the ‘traditional’ style, unfettered by advertisements and route branding. We have a clear fleetname with the civic crest on the side panels and a clear and correctly set destination display. I know this is a posed photo in the preservation era but they were really like that in normal service. Warrington had other interesting buses as well with Bristol K6G’s and Leyland PD2 specials with longer but narrower 7’6″ wide bodies. Ah nostalgia and civic pride!

Philip Halstead

16/10/13 – 06:52

You definitely deserved red carpet treatment, Chris, and I’m glad it was afforded to you by some very kind folk. No such luck with a great uncle of mine, killed by a sniper on Oct 14th 1914, a couple of weeks after arrival!
And now three rings on the bell!

Chris Hebbron

16/10/13 – 09:42

Philip, as you rightly say this unusual vehicle is quite simply magnificent – the combination of dignified civic pride and good taste with an out of the ordinary mix of chassis and body types. The Fodens were superb vehicles but, for the want of a better expression, needed driving properly. I’d only been driving about two or three weeks when I was asked to run an extra coach on the very popular Sunday evening trips from Otley – price 3/3d per ticket !! I eagerly agreed although I’d no idea at the time where Bishop Monkton was – it involved the treacherous ascent of Norwood Edge – and was allocated MUA 864 similar the 867 below.

The late turn garage man, a very kindly experienced chap who was a mentor of mine in many ways quietly gasped “’E’s not give thi’ t’Fodden as ‘e??” When I quakingly replied that “he” had poor old Jackie went white and confided “Well, whativver tha’ does – for God’s sake pull up at bottom o’ Norwood Edge and gerrit i’ fust gear – cos if tha dunt and tha tries to change down tha’ll miss it un roll straight back inter t’ ressivoy.” Bless dear old Jackie – a kindly saint in overalls. The other driver in the Tiger Cub made sure that I wasn’t left behind, and it was a grand trip which taught me an early lesson with the Fodens – just get the revs wrong by one rpm and the high pitched screeching could be heard for miles around !!

Chris Youhill

16/10/13 – 14:09

Indeed a grand-looking vehicle. Foden’s simple, yet distinctive design for concealing the radiator was surely one of the most attractive of the ‘new look’ fronts then coming into fashion. It just seemed to blend in well with most body styles, whether double-decker, single-decker or coach. (Would I be right in thinking that Foden supplied complete front and bonnet assemblies to the coachbuilders?) Philip, you are so right that the photo brings home much of what has been lost over the years – individuality, civic pride and support for local industry. (Even allowing for inflation, I’m sure fares were also cheaper then too. To travel the one and a half miles from home into Harrogate now costs £2.20 each way. Is that a lot or am I just being a stereotypical Yorkshireman?)
Chris, I loved the story about your Sunday evening excursion up Norwood Edge, as I know it and Lindley Wood ‘ressivoy’ very well. I can vouch for the steepness of the hill, and the sharpness of its bend as you near the top. Hopefully the wonderful views from the summit took your passengers minds off the snail-paced climb in first gear to get there.

Brendan Smith

17/10/13 – 11:40

Brendan – I doubt if the passengers even noticed the view after four or five miles of my woeful attempt to become a polished coach driver on such a “difficult for the unfamiliar” vehicle !! As many of them were no doubt used to seeing me issuing bus tickets as a conductor I fear that they may have been mentally checking their life assurance policies and hoping against hope for a final pint at Bishop Monkton.

Chris Youhill

18/10/13 – 07:56

How I agree with your last point, Chris, the world looks a much better place hurtling to your doom AFTER having a pint or two! Lucky that a chance meeting enabled you all to live another day! I have to say I’ve never seen a single deck version of the PVD, only the rear-engined version. Rather nice looking.

Chris Hebbron

18/10/13 – 17:04

A Plaxton, no less.

David Oldfield

18/10/13 – 17:06

Chris H – there was good news for the reluctant mountaineers after their drinks as the return journey to Otley was by an equally picturesque but less exciting route.

Here is a picture of the actual Foden, MUA 864, while waiting for a peak Summer express duplicate for West Yorkshire RCC – an enormous and highly lucrative contract for Samuel Ledgard. The coach is in the superb original “black roof” livery.

This other picture shows ONW 2 – the two stroke 37 seater of 1951 which had appeared at the Commercial Motor Show as “FWP 1951.” It was unchallenged in its heyday as the fastest PSV in the area, and for Winter comfort and ambience sported a two bar electric fire with cheery “coals.” It is shown here in Chester Street, Bradford, also on a WYRCC express relief.

Chris Youhill

22/10/13 – 17:34

Fodens south of Birmingham – some ran in South Wales – Caerphilly and West Mon both had single-deckers.

Geoff Kerr

23/10/13 – 05:48

Merthyr bought six double-deckers with unfortunate-looking Welsh Metal Industries bodies.

David Beilby

23/10/13 – 11:47

Here’s an WMI-bodied Foden supplied to Smith’s of Barrhead: www.flickr.com/photos/

Chris Hebbron

23/10/13 – 15:56

Do you think the WMI body is a poor copy of Weymann’s? [Especially the external roof ribs.] Apart from Weymann and Roe, there were some really stylish bodies in the late 40′ and early ’50s – and then there were some real dogs!

David Oldfield

23/10/13 – 15:56

Try www.alangeorge.co.uk/buses.htm for a comprehensive gallery of Merthyr buses. Daimler, Leyland, Bristol and I’m not so sure….. includes these WNI Fodens with their (seemingly) shallow windows, and some newspaper cuttings including the hero driver who saved his passengers on the ice (bet you couldn’t do that in today’s straight-line specials).

Joe

23/10/13 – 15:57

Here’s a Foden of West Mon: //tinyurl.com/nf2ajo7 and here is a Welsh Metal Industries advert of 1948, showing a Merthyr bus.

Note the great play being made of their light alloy bodies, primarily sourced from aluminium used from broken up wartime aircraft.

Chris Hebbron

23/10/13 – 16:47

Smiths of Barrhead seemed to favour Fodens. In addition to CGA 235 they had WMI bodied GGD 306 and Massey bodied JYS 466 which, though lowbridge like the WMI bodies, showed a much more sympathetic understanding of the Foden concealed radiator design albeit marred slightly by Massey’s then usual steeply raked top deck profile (see Classic Bus No 112 front cover for an excellent photo).

Orla Nutting

23/10/13 – 17:39

Plaxton, Metalcraft and Whitson seemed to get it right with the coaches and East Lancs (above) probably the best decker.
The Willowbrook that Tracky had from Cawthorne (ex demonstrator) was a bit of a dog, as well. Checking back, it’s not that different from the WMI design. Was this a Foden design used by both concerns?

David Oldfield

24/10/13 – 07:46

Welsh Metal Industries was one of the regional subsidiaries of the Metal Industries Group which also owned Sentinel at this time, and the bodywork was constructed from “stock” MI Group components used by customers such as J C Beadle. If you compare the downstairs windows of the PVD6 in the WMI ad to any shot of a Sentinel-bodied single-decker you will immediately spot the uncanny resemblance. Whitson also used these components (panels and window-pans) on the three SLC6/30 saloons it bodied to Sentinel’s basic design, even though these were timber-framed. The same basic parts had originally been supplied to JC Beadle in the late 1940s for the various semi-integral saloons they built using Bedford, Leyland Cub, and Morris running units.

Neville Mercer

14/02/14 – 07:01

I have driven this Warrington corporation Foden many miles when I lived in England and worked for Warrington corporation transport and seeing this on you site brought back many happy memories. Thanks for posting it

Ken Wilkinson

28/09/14 – 06:43

That Foden is still in the open at Onibury today, together with a sd Foden and at least one other vehicle. All in the open and unprotected.

Tony Martin

28/09/14 – 12:32

Gosh Tony, not often we hear of Onibury (Shropshire) but at Stokesay Court there, which was a military hospital in WW1, my Dad recovered from wounds suffered on the Somme. The mansion has recently appeared in the film “Atonement.” What a shame that the Fodens appear to be vulnerable like this.

Chris Youhill

28/09/14 – 18:25

For anyone with deep pockets and a lot of time on their hands, OED 217 is for sale on Ebay for the first £18000 offer. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TV-Star-1956-Foden-PVD6-East-Lancs-Double-Deck-Bus

Orla Nutting

29/09/14 – 07:40

Sad if a superb, and superbly restored, bus ends up in PSV heaven for the want of a good, and solvent carer. Similarly, as Roger has intimated many times before, there are hoards of RTs and RMs in preservation but very few Fodens. For that reason alone it ought to be saved let alone the other fact, as I have said before, that Fodens were unassailably quality vehicles in their own right.

David Oldfield

02/10/14 – 07:55

This vehicle has been for sale at a totally unrealistic price for several years now. It breaks my heart to see it under threat because the owner (apparently) has the idea that he should recover some of the money he has spent on it in the past. We all know that Bedford OBs fetch fancy prices, but they’re easy to maintain and store (as well as being too cute for words!). Compare the price for the Foden with other similar vehicles in the small ads of B&CP – you could get three fully restored ‘deckers for this amount. Incidentally, does anyone know the current status of the other (Crossley bodied) Warrington Foden which went into preservation?

Neville Mercer

02/10/14 – 11:32

Prices are irrelevant – it’s what people will will pay is the important point. Crosville Motors of WSM have a Lodekka and FLF for sale at £22,500 each. Both in full working order and also can be viewed on Ebay. Of course these are Bristols so obviously more desirable!!!

Ken Jones

03/10/14 – 07:01

NO bias, then, Ken!

Chris Hebbron

05/05/15 – 07:17

I notice some people mentioning about the WBT bus that’s at Onibury on here. I live in Ludlow (we actually moved from Warrington to Ludlow) and it was my dad that actually noticed the WBT buses parked up there. I’ve got a bit of a fear of level crossings (siderodromaphobia) so don’t tend to like crossing there, but I do know if you go from Ludlow end just after the level crossing there is a turning right into Onibury. The A49 is certainly not a place you want to stop to take pictures but if you turn in there, there is plenty of space on Back Lane to park and then walk back round to the level crossing.
I’m quite sure I’ve spotted at least 2 Warrington Borough Transport buses there. I think one of them even has the destination of Wilderspool Causeway on it. Don’t know who owns them or anything about the people living there, but there does seem to be a lot of people living Ludlow who actually moved from Warrington, including Pete Postlethwaite used to live here.

Darren

05/05/15 – 11:54

The attached picture of MED 168 was taken in September 2014 – from on the level crossing mentioned by Darren. As can be seen, there were some other vehicles on site – the white Foden coach being KMA 553, but registrations of the others could not be seen from the road.

Peter Delaney

05/05/15 – 11:56

The Foden PSVs were high quality fascinating vehicles. I’m interested in the present location of these two, as when my Dad returned injured from the horrors of The Somme in 1917 he was convalescent at Stokesay Court, Onibury – a mansion which had been given over to military hospital use. I visited the house a few years ago when there were financial difficulties, as with many such gems, but its use in the making of the film “Atonement” has apparently improved its fortunes which is pleasing to hear. Sorry to digress, but for warrington buses to end up there is quite a journey.

Chris Youhill

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/02/20 – 06:33

The gentleman at Onibury just loves Fodens and when the 1 of only 2 foden double deckers left came up for sale he had to buy it. The single deckers would have been scrapped if he had not saved them and restored them as they were virtually past repair. If you call in as I did when passing he doesn’t mind showing you round, he restores other vehicles as well but rarely rallies them, which is a pity.

Andy Dobson

06/02/20 – 05:50

Steve at Onibury had two half-cab foden coaches and made one good one out of them. Talented engineer.

Roger Burdett

Reading Corporation – Dennis Loline – GRD 576D – 76

Copyright Pete Davies

Reading Corporation
1966
Dennis Loline III
East Lancs H38/30F

Here is a Reading Corporation Dennis Loline III with an East Lancs H38/30F bodywork, and is seen arriving at Wisley Airfield for the “Cobham” Running Day on 4 April, 2004. The Loline, as most know already, was the Bristol Lodekka built under licence by Dennis of Guildford, and the Loline III with forward door makes an interesting comparison with the FLF version of the Lodekka.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

17/05/13 – 07:21

A beautiful picture of a beautiful vehicle. It has been said that arguably the best looking AEC Renowns are the East Lancs versions (particularly Leigh and West Bridgeford). This is the Dennis Loline equivalent – and equally good looking. The Reading livery helps to set it off.

David Oldfield

17/05/13 – 09:05

The forward entrance East Lancs bodied Loline III was the nearest the Loline got in looks to the FLF – if the upper deck emergency exit had been changed to a single bay the similarity would have been very close, with the visual advantage of a more balanced side window bay arrangement.

Phil Blinkhorn

17/05/13 – 09:06

Agreed on all points David – I just hope that Mr. Stenning doesn’t see the picture, or the poor soul will think that his life’s work has been in vain.

Chris Youhill

17/05/13 – 10:39

Well hasn’t it all been in vain, Chris. [If you take notice of the number of remarks concerning his modern liveries!]

David Oldfield

17/05/13 – 12:40

Thank you, gents, for your kind remarks!

Pete Davies

19/05/13 – 07:20

This vehicle was one of the last batch of eight Loline IIIs bought by Reading in December 1966 and January 1967. The first eight Lolines for Reading came in September 1962, and had rear axles and four speed gearboxes by Dennis. These were followed by ten more in July-September 1964, but these had Bristol rear axles and five speed gearboxes with the overdrive ratio blanked off, which limited top speed to a shade above 30 mph. The last eight, of which 76 above is a representative, were similarly engineered. Quite why Reading specified the Bristol transmission components, especially the five speed boxes which the Corporation then blanked off, is puzzling. At this time Aldershot and District were accepting the delivery of Lolines equipped with wholly Dennis transmissions, so the Reading choice of Bristol componentry must have been made on the grounds of cost. The point has been made before on this site that the Loline, and particularly the Mark III, was rather more than “a licence built Lodekka”. Dennis made several changes to the design, and all Lolines from the Mark I had a full air braking system, unlike the Bristol which stuck with air/hydraulic to the end. As one who has driven both Lolines and Lodekkas, I think that the Dennis was the nicer of the two types. Both Ian Thompson and Alan Murray-Rust who have first hand knowledge of these Reading Lolines in service have made insightful comments under the entry for North Western â€“ Dennis Loline III â€“ RDB 892.

Roger Cox

19/05/13 – 07:23

The Dennis Loline always lived in the shadow of the Bristol FLF in terms of sales numbers largely due to the radically different purchasing policies of the vehicles’ respective client base. Whereas the BTC companies, which were the only purchasers of the Lodekka allowed by legislation, standardised on a low-height design whether it was actually needed or not, the BET Group companies and municipalities only generally bought such vehicles where low bridges dictated a definite requirement. In those days before disabled access legislation no-one ever seemed to consider a major advantage of the Loline and indeed the other low-height designs of providing a low-height single step entrance. Had such legislation been in place in those days then the Loline could have had a very different history.
I agree that this is a superb picture of a fine vehicle in a classic municipal livery. It still looks good nearly 50 years on but that is the mark of pure quality.

Philip Halstead

20/05/13 – 09:05

Just realised—that’s me at the tiller and wife and daughter up aloft! From about 1955 onwards, as a new model popped up every few years and then disappeared from the market, you heard people predicting the final demise of Dennis as a busbuilder, yet here they are with highly successful products in 2013. Admittedly much changed, but the name lives on!
I’ve also got a very soft spot for East Lancs bodywork, so that Loline has it all.
Pity that one of the ’62 batch didn’t survive, but those then very saleable Gardner engines ensured that withdrawn 6LX-powered buses didn’t just moulder away as chicken sheds—to be discovered decades later by delighted enthusiasts—but got cut up for scrap.
Fine picture, Pete. Thanks.

Ian Thompson

20/05/13 – 16:54

Ian,
If you’d like a copy for posterity, the family archives, or whatever, I’m quite happy for Peter to forward it to you.

Pete Davies

22/05/13 – 09:41

Thanks for the very kind offer, Pete, which I’d be delighted to take up.

Ian Thompson

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport1940Leyland TB7CNEast Lancs H28/26R

Southdown Motor Services Ltd1953Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13East Lancs DP40C

Lancaster City Transport1968Leyland Panther PSUR1/1REast Lancs B53F

Bolton Corporation1965Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1East Lancs H45/33F

Southampton Corporation1968Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1East Lancs H45/31F

Huddersfield Corporation1947 rebodied 1961Karrier MS2East Lancs H40/32R

Ronsway of Hemel Hempstead1961Guy Wulfrunian 6LWEast Lancs H37/29R

Huddersfield Corporation1959Guy Arab IVEast Lancs H37/28R

Warrington Corporation1956Foden PVD6East Lancs H30/28R

Reading Corporation1966Dennis Loline IIIEast Lancs H38/30F

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1940
Leyland TB7CN
East Lancs H28/26R

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1953
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13
East Lancs DP40C

Lancaster City Transport
1968
Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R
East Lancs B53F

Bolton Corporation
1965
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
East Lancs H45/33F

Southampton Corporation
1968
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
East Lancs H45/31F

Huddersfield Corporation
1947 rebodied 1961
Karrier MS2
East Lancs H40/32R

Ronsway of Hemel Hempstead
1961
Guy Wulfrunian 6LW
East Lancs H37/29R

Huddersfield Corporation
1959
Guy Arab IV
East Lancs H37/28R

Warrington Corporation
1956
Foden PVD6
East Lancs H30/28R

Reading Corporation
1966
Dennis Loline III
East Lancs H38/30F