Category: Photos

Premier Travel – Leyland Titan PD2 – DCK 212


Copyright John Stringer

Premier Travel (Cambridge)
1950
Leyland Titan PD2/3
East Lancs. FL27/26RD

Photographed in Drummer Street, Cambridge in 1970, this was one of eleven former Ribble ‘White Lady’ PD2’s, new in 1950 and purchased by Premier Travel in 1962. Around the same time that Ribble were taking delivery of these, Premier Travel had taken into its fleet three Daimler CVD6’s with uncommon Wilkes & Meade full-fronted double-deck coach type bodies with front ends and other styling features clearly influenced by the Ribble vehicles. The Daimlers were not a success and did not have long lives, but clearly still impressed with the White Lady styling PT’s management seem to have jumped at the chance of grabbing as many as possible when they came onto the second hand market. This one was withdrawn in 1972.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

24/02/13 – 09:54

Thanks for posting, John. I have photos of others of this batch and find it to be an unusual – if not unique – way of using the Ribble ‘square triangle’ indicator display.

Pete Davies

24/02/13 – 12:39

Here is a photo of one of the Daimler CVD6/Wilkes & Meade vehicles. 
See: this link.

Chris Hebbron

25/02/13 – 07:19

The three Wilks and Meade (there is no ‘e’ in Wilks) bodied Daimler CVD6 “County” class double deck coaches, were delivered in 1950 and withdrawn in 1964 (HVE 401) and 1966 (HVE 402/3). The Ribble White Ladies arrived in January 1962, and thus ran alongside the CVDs only for a maximum of four years. The Wilks and Meade bodies on the Daimlers were of very poor quality, and had to be extensively rebuilt using new framing by Premier Travel in its own workshops. The Leylands and their East Lancs bodies were much better buses, and lasted with Premier for eight to eleven years. Paul Carter’s book on Premier Travel (Capital Transport) is the comprehensive history for anyone interested in this operator.

Roger Cox

25/02/13 – 07:22

As Roger Cox has correctly pointed out on the page on this very forum devoted to the bodybuilder Wilks & Meade, that is the correct spelling, rather than the much more frequently quoted Wilkes & Meade. If in doubt, refer to the OBP page devoted to Wallace Arnold – the evidence is there for all to see, in glorious black & white!

David Call

28/07/14 – 07:53

In the background can be seen one of Primitive Travel’s, sorry – Premier Travel’s, ex Devon General AEC Reliance buses (VDV xxx). These were acquired during 1970, so this and the presence of the ECOC LKH dates the picture to no earlier then the summer (note the leafy trees) of 1970 and no later than 1972* when DCK 212 went to Wally Smith’s scrapyard at Thriplow.
*The LKH is almost certainly 168 as by this time it was one of just two surviving K’s in Cambridge; the other, 269, bore adverts between decks whereas 168 didn’t towards the end. But whether 168 or 269, the final demise of the Cambridge K’s narrows the date of the picture down to 1970-71.
On the Wilks & Meade bodies, the problem was the use of unseasoned timber in their construction. This was a common problem in the early postwar years and by no means confined to PT’s Daimlers.
One of the three PT Daimlers, HVE 401 “County of Cambridge” spent many years after withdrawal quietly decomposing at the rear of PT’s Godmanchester depot. It was later kept company by one of the ex LT RF’s and a Burlingham Seagull coach.
The nameplate from HVE 401 (these were small ‘blink and you’ll miss it’ things mounted above the radiator grille) ended up in the late Mr Lainson’s then office at 15 Market Hill; maybe the other two also ended up there but I don’t know.

Darren Kitson

14/07/18 – 07:09

I worked at Premier Travel, Chrishall for approx., 12 years. First as a conductor, then a bus driver. Working for a small company was a pleasure, and I made a lot of good lifetime friends, in fact it was more like a family.I am still interested in old photo’s or books, and would willingly help anyone wishing to fill in about routes run by them. A Mr. Grice ran the Chrishall depot for the whole of my time, and a more dedicated man you would not wish to meet, working far more than the normal hours today, and 7 days a week.

John Harvey

Pioneer Coaches – Leyland Titan PD2 – J 14672 – Oliver

Pioneer Coaches - Leyland Titan PD2 - J 14672 - Oliver

Pioneer Coaches
1958
Leyland Titan PD2/41
East Lancs H35/28R

This vehicle was new to Lancaster City Transport and its registration was 128 DTD. After withdrawal it spent a period with OK Motor Services – Bishop Auckland, and used as a Driver Trainer. It then spent a period in Preservation with the Cumbria Bus Preservation Group before going to Pioneer Coaches, Jersey, Channel Islands and being converted to an Open Topper for use on Round Island Sightseeing Tours.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

18/07/13 – 07:47

This bus is now resident in the Scilly Isles

Chris Hough

21/07/13 – 07:22

At a quick glance this could so easily be mistaken for a Leyland body. Only a quick glance, mind you !

John Stringer

21/07/13 – 07:24

Well, well, well, the old girl’s looking good. SCT61 followers will be aware that this was probably my least favourite bus whilst it was with the OK as I’ve often grumbled about it. This was for a number of reasons, one of which being that it was never painted into OK livery but retained its rather washed-out Lancaster colours so never really looked the part.
During almost two years with OK, although its main duties were as a driver-trainer, DTD made a number of appearance on service on Summer Saturdays when everything else was out, mainly on Evenwood and mainly, it always seemed, for part of the day on yours truly’s shift! As a result of an attempted – though, thankfully, unsuccessful – serious assault one night it went further down in my estimation.
I’m not generally a fan of open-toppers but it looks extremely smart in this livery: not bad for almost 56 years old.

Alan Hall

22/07/13 – 06:49

A picture of DTD 128 as the Driver Trainer with OK Motor Services can be seen on flickr at www.flickr.com/photos/

Stephen Howarth

22/07/13 – 07:13

J 14672_2

Here is a picture of Pioneer Coaches ‘Oliver’ doing what it was bought to do, carrying a good load of happy holiday makers – upper deck only though – on the Round Island Tour.
It is seen here on The Five Mile Road or La Grande Route des Mielles which runs along St Ouen’s Bay to the West of the Island. The protection of the natural landscape has ensured that only limited residential development has occurred along the road. The tree in the foreground and those in the background show clearly which way the wind blows off the Atlantic. There is nothing between this point on Jersey and Newfoundland.

Stephen Howarth

Blackburn Corporation – Leyland Titan – PCB 25 – 25

Blackburn Corporation - Leyland Titan - PCB 25 - 25

Blackburn Corporation – Blackburn Borough Transport
1962
Leyland Titan PD2A/24
East Lancs H35/28R

The local government reorganisation of 1974 resulted in the merger of the municipal fleets of Blackburn and Darwen. The initial livery was a compromise, using Darwen’s red and Blackburn’s green, although the shades of these colours were rather brighter than those previously used. The combined undertaking was titled “Blackburn Borough Transport”, the word “Corporation” ceased to be used at this time (at least for bus fleets) except in Douglas The main subject of this picture is 25 (PCB 25) a Leyland Titan PD2A/24 with East Lancs H35/28R bodywork, one of twelve delivered to Blackburn Corporation in 1962; a further twelve identical vehicles followed in 1964. These followed batches of Guy Arab IV’s, and I’m sure the drivers will have appreciated the semi-automatic gearboxes on these Titans. Other vehicles of both Blackburn and Ribble can be seen, including the rear of an Atlantean in the previous Blackburn livery. After a few years a version of the latter livery was applied to the whole fleet.

The photograph was taken at The Boulevard bus terminus, which was right outside Blackburn Railway Station. This terminus served the town well until recently, but at the time of writing this area is a building site, with temporary traffic lights causing delays to buses entering or leaving the town from the south. A new bus station is under construction near to the market hall, and a temporary bus station has been built nearby. Nowadays the former municipal services are operated by Transdev Lancashire United, which revives a once proud name, although not in it’s original operating area.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

11/09/14 – 077:00

Don, there was another exception – Barrow-in-Furness Corporation Transport. Buses proudly carried the fleet name ‘Barrow Corporation’ well into the 1980s. They retained their smart cream and dark blue livery and a coat of arms too. Nice picture with plenty of background interest which captures the era well.

Mike Morton

13/09/14 – 06:35

The semi-automatic PD2 (as opposed to PD3) was a pretty rare vehicle really. And I don’t recall the centrifugal clutches rattling on these PD2s the way they did on Ribble, Wigan, Preston etc PD3s when idling.

Michael Keeley

14/09/14 – 07:26

There were indeed more semi-automatic PD3s built for UK operators than semi-automatic PD2s, but not all that many more.
I can think of 391 PD2s, whereas the total for PD3s was, I think, about 580. The main customer for two-pedal PD2s was Glasgow Corporation Transport, which took 325. Others operators which spring to mind are Blackburn (24), Leeds (20), Huddersfield (6), Manchester (6), Swindon (5), King Alfred (2), Ramsbottom (1), Walsall (1), Demonstrator (1).
Taking Glasgow out of the equation gives 66 PD2s and about 440 PD3s, so, outside Glasgow, two-pedal PD2s were indeed relatively rare. There’s no way a centrifugal clutch couldn’t rattle, so if the Blackburn PD2A/24s didn’t rattle then there’s no way they could have been centrifugal clutch, they must have been fluid flywheel, which is what I would have said they were anyway.
Of the Ribble two-pedal PD3s, only 1706-1800 were centrifugal clutch, the final batch (1815-50) being fluid flywheel.
All two-pedal Preston PD3s were centrifugal clutch, but they only took the one batch (of seven), choosing manual transmissions for all subsequent PD3s.
I never seriously encountered the Wigan PD3s, sorry.

David Call

16/09/14 – 07:52

Never realised Glasgow had so many, their half-cabs were long gone by the first time I visited that city. Come to think of it, it was only the Ribble 1700s that rattled. The Wigans rattled with a vengeance as evidenced by the video of HEK 705 on Youtube. Some early Atlanteans had centrifugal clutches I believe, but had them quickly replaced by fluid flywheels, what did they sound like I wonder.

Michael Keeley

13/08/20 – 10:26

Brighton buses also proclaimed “Brighton Corporation” well into the eighties.

Eddie Leslie

Ribble – Leyland Titan PD2 – DCK 219 – 1248

Ribble - Leyland Titan - DCK 219 - 1248

Ribble Motor Services
1951
Leyland Titan PD2/3
East Lancs FCL27/22RD

This vehicle is easily recognisable as one of Ribble’s famous ‘White Ladies’. She has a Leyland Titan PD2/3 chassis, with East Lancs FCL49RD body. She dates from 1951 and, at the time of this photograph, she was with Quantock. I understand she has now passed to Sir Brian Souter. We see her outside the Guildhall, but Prestonians will know that this is not Preston Guildhall. The date of 1st January 2005 gives a clue – she’s in Winchester for a King Alfred running day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

26/02/16 – 05:32

Back in the spring of 1972 I had read in “Buses” magazine that Premier Travel were about to withdraw the last of their ex Ribble White Ladies, so I decided take a day trip to Cambridge to sample one while I had the chance. I rode from Cambridge to Royston and the youthful conductor (who I now suspect was Paul Carter, later to write the history of Premier) told me that I could catch a bus from Royston to the depot at Chrishall and then another back to Cambridge. I did as suggested and at the depot I found the chief engineer in the process of handing over this very bus to a group of enthusiasts for preservation. It was to be 43 years before I saw it again at the Scottish Bus Museum at Lathlalmond in 2015.

Nigel Turner

26/02/16 – 08:43

Thanks for that, Nigel. I still can’t reconcile the lowbridge seating with coach designation, but there we are!

Pete Davies

27/02/16 – 08:36

These vehicles were often used on service X4 from Manchester to Burnley via Todmorden, which passed under a low bridge at Portsmouth (a suburb of Todmorden.)

Don McKeown

27/02/16 – 09:22

I’m pretty sure that the bridge which barred full-height double-deckers from services X4/X14 was on the A646 between Walk Mill and Towneley. There isn’t a bridge at Portsmouth, but there is one just down the road at Cornholme. This is passable for full-height double-deckers (Yorkshire Rider used highbridge Atlanteans on Halifax depot’s share of service 592, Halifax-Burnley), but, being an arched bridge, it’s still ‘risky’.

David Call

27/02/16 – 12:55

I drove this vehicle a few times for Stephen Morris before he sold it to Brian Souter. It certainly was a lively performer but rolled a lot upstairs.
Great vehicle and lovely to see it.

Roger Burdett

28/02/16 – 06:11

The bridge between Walk Mill and Towneley had a maximum permissible height of 14ft 6in and was passable for full-height double deckers up to and including that height. I remember passing under it on an enthusiasts’ outing with Halifax JOC 377 (BCP 671) and we stopped to photograph it doing so. The bridge was a straight steel one – not arched – so it was not a case of getting the position right. I think in the days before WYPTE diverted the Halifax-Todmorden Burnley route via Mereclough and Pike Hill it was not unknown for full-height double decks to pass under the bridge, though low-heights were the normal allocation. I know Burnley & Pendle had to be careful when their coaching unit received some Volvo CityBus double deckers, as they were 14 ft 9in and had to avoid the bridge.

John Stringer

28/02/16 – 15:22

Bridge heights always a problem as there seems to be some debate regarding this particular vehicle and the necessity for using it here is a suggestion. I seem to recall London Transport Country having problems with RCL Routemasters some where in I think Hertfordshire where the road had been lowered so that the warning sign indicated enough clearance for said vehicle but upon exiting from under the bridge hit the back end of the vehicle.
This is probably more common with HGVs particularly artics where the front of the vehicle rises up before the back and levels out earlier.

Patrick Armstrong

18/11/16 – 11:40

I used to “spot” these beautiful buses as they made their way through Prestwich, north of Manchester. I have also tried hard to interest someone in a die cast model but to no avail as they were only used by Ribble and Premier. What a shame!

Peter Worsley

Burnley, Colne & Nelson JTC – Leyland Tiger – CHG 540 – 40

Burnley, Colne & Nelson JTC - Leyland Tiger - CHG 540 - 40

Burnley, Colne & Nelson JTC
1954
Leyland Tiger PS2/14
East Lancs B39R

Leyland PS2/14 chassis number 540923 was first delivered  to Burnley, Colne & Nelson in 1954 with East Lancs B39R body number EL 5042. In 1958 it was rebodied to B39F by East Lancs, body number EL 5340 for one man operation.
It  is seen here on October 30th 2011, arriving at The Piece Hall, Halifax for the Heart of the Pennines event.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

15/10/15 – 07:23

Was it really rebodied after only four years, or did East Lancs give the body a front entrance and other updated features in 1958, with a fresh body number to validate the job ? Otherwise, a new body after just four years seems remarkably profligate of the Committee.

Petras409

15/10/15 – 07:23

Very nice, Les. The cobbled street adds atmosphere!

Pete Davies

16/10/15 – 06:07

It wasn’t rebodied it just had the entrance moved from rear to front to allow OMO. I am pretty sure the whole batch was similarly treated. The new body number must just have been for administrative purposes at East Lancs. The short window next to the rear curved window shows where the original entrance was positioned.

Philip Halstead

17/10/15 – 07:37

Indeed, Bus Lists on the Web shows that 539-546 were all treated similarly, each receiving a new body number in the process.

Les Dickinson

Green Bus Service – Leyland Tiger Cub – BCW 466B

Green Bus Company - Leyland Tiger Cub - BCW 466B

Green Bus Service
1964
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/11
East Lancs B43F

The Late Graham Martin’s Green Bus Service (aka Warstone Motors) ran routes in rural Staffordshire. Here is an ex-Burnley Colne and Nelson Leyland Tiger Cub with East Lancs body it was fleet number 66 in their fleet. It is seen in this shot leaving the village of Brewood and has just crossed the Shropshire Union Canal.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Tony Martin

30/04/14 – 18:01

There is an ex-Burnley Colne and Nelson Leyland Tiger Cub for sale in the May edition of Bus & Coach Preservation’ magazine can not see a registration plate suspect it is one from the previous 50 – 59 1963 batch although the advertisement dates the vehicle as 1962.

Peter

11/03/15 – 16:36

The Company name was Green Bus Service – Knowing Mr Martin I’m sure he would want that corrected.

Phil Atherton

Sorry about that I have updated the posting.

Hull Corporation – Leyland TB7CN – FRH 564 – 64

Hull Corporation - Leyland TB7CN - FRH 564 - 64

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1940
Leyland TB7CN
East Lancs H28/26R

The Holderness Road trolleybus route conversion was about to get underway, but the outbreak of World War 2, intervened. Much of the overhead equipment was already on hand or on order at this point, added to which the tramway was getting in need of replacement. Hull Corporation therefore applied for Parliamentary permission to convert the route to trolleybus operation. Permission was forthcoming and the route was duly converted. To operate the service, which was given the route numbers 64 and 64A. The latter was a short working to East Park, used mainly to turn duplicates off the main route which terminated at the Ings Road junction. To operate the service twenty Leyland TB7CN chassis were purchased and these were bodied by East Lancashire Coachbuilders, a company new to Hull Corporation. Initially the seating was H28/26R, but was later up-seated to H31/29R. Bus number 64 (FRH 564) is shown operating along Holderness Road. The photograph may have been taken in Coronation year, 1953, if the flags and bunting on the buildings are anything to go by.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton

Just curious about this TB7CN – TB for Trolleybus, 7 for the 7th model possible the numbers were linked to the Titan TD numbers, but what did the CN stand for?

Spencer

You have me on this one, all I can say is that this type was on a fleet list obtained from Geoff O’Connell, whose knowledge of KHCT was second to none. He was the Assistant GM at the time I knew him.
I believe that the TB series numbers were linked to the Titan series, with regard to chassis improvements, but I’ve not seen any confirmation of this.

Keith Easton

The batch was just designated TB7 – I have copies of the specification and tender forms from Leyland. All twenty were built in 1939 being delivered in the late Summer of 1939. Nos 47/8/51/2 entered service on 31 August 1939.
The TB designation was linked with the TD series – the tender for nos 1-26 actually quoted TD4 chassis – later changed to TB4
The Corporation already had permission to convert the route but, owing to the War, no Ministry of Transport inspection would be made it being up to the General Manager to authorise it. The Transport Committee being uncertain about the war situation at first declined to convert the route (originally scheduled for September 1939) and not until February 1940 did it agree.
Geoff O’Connell was never the Assistant GM but was in the Traffic Office.
For more details see my book “Kingston upon Hull Trolleybuses” published by Trolleybooks in 1996.

Malcolm Wells

16/02/20 – 06:14

Just for the record, I was told that Arthur (staff and later Chief) Handley was the only driver that could take North Bridge at speed and keep his trolleys on.
Arthur, a gentle giant died from skin cancer in the early 1980’s just after being made up.

Box501

Southdown – Leyland Royal Tiger – MCD 515 – 1515

MCD 515

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1953
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13
East Lancs DP40C

This photo taken in the mid sixties in Pevensey Road Eastbourne shows one of my all time favourites, one of batch of thirty No’s 1510-1539 Reg No’s MCD 510-539 delivered in 1953 it is a Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 with an East Lancs body delivered as DP40C and converted to B39F for OMO use in 1961 then sold in 1968. These followed a batch of ten No’s 1500-1509 Reg No’s LUF 500-509 delivered in 1952 these differed in being delivered as B40R also converted later for OMO work. My best memories of these handsome buses were in the mid fifties on the 126 route from Eastbourne to Seaford by the inland route via Alfriston and a steep climb over the South Down known as High and Over, the pleasure was much greater if I was able to bag the front N/S seat opposite the driver for which I always arrived early, the usual two cars (to use correct Southdown term) were 1528 and 1531. I little thought that about 14 years later I would be driving Leopards on the virtually same route but always wished it was one of those Royal Tigers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

21/05/15 – 06:45

Very nice, Dave, but wasn’t B39C a bit difficult for OMO/OPO working?

Pete Davies

21/05/15 – 06:47

Does anyone know what caused Southdown to buy East Lancs bodywork, a very accurate attractive bus but at the time East Lancs customer base was mainly in the north.
Did Southdown really use these as B39C for OMO work?

Chris Hough

21/05/15 – 16:56

There is a typo in Dave’s text. Should read’ and converted to B39F I also remember travelling on these as a child, both before and after conversion, and like Dave used to go for the front seat when they were central entrance. They were replaced in 1968 with a batch of Marshall bodied manual gearbox RE’s, which I seem to remember were not to their drivers liking!

Roy Nicholson

21/05/15 – 16:58

Spot the not so deliberate mistake 1515 was of course converted to B39F for OMO/OPO work part of the conversion entailed the previously recessed N/S windscreen being made upright to accommodate the new doors when open, my apologies for my poor proof reading.

Diesel Dave

23/05/15 – 07:20

Chris Hough asks about Southdown’s use of East Lancs products – I think the first use was in the war-time rebodying of two Leyland TD1s, and eight Leyland TD2’s to utility specification, a job which East Lancs was authorised (with Willowbrook) to do, rather than body new chassis. Southdown must have been satisfied, because East Lancs was included in the re-bodying programme of Leyland TD3s, TD4s and TD5s just after WWII. This exercise included several body-builders, including Park Royal, NCME, Saunders and Beadle. 59 bodies were completed by East Lancs between 1946 and 1950. Then the 40 Royal Tigers followed, and the final 24 PD2/12’s (789-812). However Southdown multi-sourced by also ordering from Park Royal, Beadle and NCME for double-deckers in the 1950s, finally settling on NCME for the 285 Queen Mary PD3s.

Michael Hampton

Lancaster City Transport – Leyland Panther – LTC 109F – 109

Lancaster Corporation - Leyland Panther - LTC 109F - 109

Lancaster City Transport
1968
Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R
East Lancs B53F

LTC 109F fleet number 109 is a Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R with East Lancs B53F body, new to Lancaster in 1968. The batch was in maroon and cream livery then, but we see it in ‘post merger’ livery of blue and white, on the sunny evening of 20 May 1975. The scene is Lancaster’s Damside Street Bus Station. 389 JTD a 1959 Tiger Cub is behind, still in the old livery but with the Tilling style of fleetname adopted as an interim measure for Lancaster and Morecambe & Heysham vehicles, together with what looks like another Panther on the extreme left of the view.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

24/04/16 – 09:09

In late 1979 LTC 109F came to Derbyshire when, in company with Morecambe and Heysham AEC Swift UTJ 908H, it joined Woolliscroft Silver Service fleet at Darley Dale. Initially they were on loan from Lancaster City but were purchased outright soon after arrival. The Panther bore a strong family resemblance to a batch of Neepsend bodied Panthers at nearby Chesterfield, these Neepsend bodies being built under license from East Lancs. LTC 109F lasted a couple of years but was eventually stripped for spares and the remains had been scrapped by 1982. The Swift lasted a little longer going to North at Sherburn in 1983.

David Hargraves

24/04/16 – 10:43

My original slide includes the Ribble PD3 with Metropolitan Cammell body which some members may have spotted on the extreme right It is from the PCK series. Lancaster had six of these Panthers, in two trios: GTC 104-106F from 1967 and 107-109F from 1968.
David comments on a number of supposed ‘East Lancs’ products being bodied by Neepsend. Some of Southampton’s later Regent V fleet were products of this arrangement and I think I’ve read somewhere that many think Neepsend was a subsidiary of East Lancs, but they were in fact part of the same group. Wrong again, Davies?

Pete Davies

24/04/16 – 12:42

Just a clarification re. Pete’s comment, the registrations of the second batch of three Panthers were LTC-F.
Lancaster reverted to Leopards for its next deliveries.

Dave Towers

24/04/16 – 18:33

Thanks, Dave. I must fire my proof reader!

Pete Davies

26/04/16 – 14:57

East Lancs were owned at the time by John Brown engineering who were based originally in Sheffield They re activated bus building in Sheffield at a factory on Neepsend Lane using East Lancs designs.
So really Neepsend were never an East Lancs subsidiary but both were part of the John Brown empire.
Sheffield took some rear engine chassis from them in 1964/65 The firm (I think) built one more body on a Bedford VAS chassis for Sheffield but by this time it was called Cravens Homalloy.

Chris Hough

27/04/16 – 05:54

Thanks, Chris. I’m glad that the old grey cells have not failed me this time.

Pete Davies

Bolton Corporation – Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 – ABN 213C – 213


Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Bolton Corporation
1965
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
East Lancs H45/33F

Here we have two Bolton Corporation Leyland Atlanteans separated by only eleven registration and fleet number but they are both bodied by a different body builder. The one on the left was by East Lancs built in Blackburn Lancashire which is not many miles away from Bolton, the one on the right by MCW (Metro Cammell & Weymann) a Birmingham based body builder. All Atlanteans delivered to Bolton after this batch of 8 MCWs were all bodied by the local builder East Lancs,

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

The interesting thing about these Bolton vehicles is that the modern styling and colour scheme was the creation of the General Manager Ralph Bennett.
He subsequently went to Manchester as GM, where he created the Mancunian, the first bus to be specifically built with OPO in mind, which revolutionised both Manchester’s buses and, arguably set the trend for the whole country.
He then moved on to London Transport where he created the “Londoner” DM and DMS buses, though sadly LTE were far more timid than either Bolton or Manchester’s Transport Committees, and the result was pretty mediocre in comparison with his earlier work.

David Jones

Ralph Bennett was certainly responsible for the new Bolton livery, and as it first appeared on this style of Atlantean, he is generally credited with that as well. But in fact the design of the East Lancs body was a straight copy of the Metro-Cammell one apart from having slightly bigger windows, and the Metro-Cammell one had already appeared at Liverpool several months earlier, presenting a very different appearance in their livery.
I have often wondered who was really responsible for that Liverpool design. The managements of municipal fleets always had good relations with each other, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised at some sort of collaboration. I very much doubt that it was MCW.

Peter Williamson

28/08/11 – 12:19

I am wondering if Bolton Corporation Atlantean fleet number 192 is still around it was the first Atlantean bus to come on the road in 1963 and I drove it on the first day it came into service on the Bolton – Bury 52 Route we went from Thynne St in those days it had a automatic gearbox but could be driven manually through the gears number 4 slot on the selector box being the auto but was disconnected later and reverted to manual early problems were the fuel lift pump and in fact broke down on our last trip which was to Stopes Little Lever

Frank Ryle

28/08/11 – 15:50

Most interesting Frank – we had a batch of twenty new Atlanteans (406 – 425) at Leeds City Transport in 1970, and they had very smooth automatic gearboxes for that era – many systems at that time were diabolical and, in cases, downright dangerous but I really liked these twenty. Were yours the same in that if you selected 4th position at a standstill the bus would move away in second gear and then change up very smoothly. You had to select first gear when required in the normal “1” position on the “H”.

Chris Youhill

29/08/11 – 07:56

Central Area and Green Country Area Routemaster buses (as opposed to Green Line coaches) were the same. They were fully automatic when 4 was selected and started in second from rest. They had full control of gears in semi-automatic mode using all the gates – including 1st.
Anyone who remembers original London operation might remember hill starts in 1st – but then shifting straight to 4 for automatic operation thereafter.
When I was driving RMs for Reading Mainline in the ’90s, we were told to drive in semi-auto mode rather than in fully automatic. [At that age some could cope with auto but others couldn’t.] The preserved RML that I drive still has fully auto capability but I prefer to drive it semi-auto to ensure a smooth drive – for which I am well known.
Interesting enough, the Alder Valley Bristol VRTs of the late 70s had a slightly different control – which I seem to recollect went over to some subsequent Leyland Olympians. They were fully automatic but always started in 1st – but the take up was harsh and brisk, meaning even the best of drivers could end up catapulting old ladies on to the back seat. They also had a very strange three gate control – Reverse, Forward and change down (after which you went back to Forward, ie auto).

David Oldfield

30/08/11 – 08:12

yes Chris it was the same as you say in auto mode pull away in second but the change wasn’t as smooth and a bit jerky as I said it was decided to disconnect the auto and just have manual on the subject of gearboxes in early sixties BOLTON still had some Crossleys and Leyland PD ones which had a crash box double de clutch and hope you matched up the revs otherwise you had no chance of changing up or down although they were fitted with a clutch stop which put a brake in the gearbox as they were at the end of their life it was hit and miss if they worked or not also a small number of front loading Daimlers with preselect boxes in first you could move the selector to second but it wouldn’t change until you pressed the clutch pedal which wasn’t a clutch pedal as such but a decompression pedal if you stabbed it quick the change was reasonable provided you match up the revs and road speed otherwise it would snatch fiercely

Frank Ryle

30/08/11 – 15:25

Interesting information again Frank and perhaps by 1970 that particular automatic system had been improved, because the twenty buses that I mentioned were impeccably behaved in auto or manual mode and admittedly they were new when I drove them. When with the famous independent operator Samuel Ledgard I drove many Leyland PD1s and PD2s. I passed my PSV test on a wonderful PD1, JUM 378 of 1946, and although I use the term “favourite” with care I think I must say that they are one of the most appealing and totally predictable models for me – the Ledgard fitters certainly kept the clutch stops in fine order even on buses twenty years old. The spring operated gear change on the Daimlers had to be treated with great respect if you wanted to avoid a trip to A & E with an ankle injury. Any wear on the selector linkages or failure to depress the gear change pedal positively and fully would result in the pedal flying out to twice the normal length with tremendous force – usually it could be restored by applying both feet to the pedal and pressing the shoulders against the cab rear window – Lord knows what the passengers must have thought !! Happy days, and the present generation of “fast men” think they have it hard with their super fully automatic buses and incredibly powerful engines – but no character or challenge – I wouldn’t have missed my early days for anything and I can still happily remember dozens, or many more, of individual vehicles and their peculiarities.

Chris Youhill

30/08/11 – 19:24

Chris, how I empathise with your sentiments on some of the present day crop of bus drivers. Power steering, auto gearboxes, powerful brakes, vehicle power to weight ratios that were undreamed of in our time…..! How would they cope with, say, a manual PD3 with synchro on the top two gears only. Mind you, driving a bus on the roads of today, having to cope with the stupid, suicidal, selfish lunacies of the cretinous Clarkson clone brigade that now infests our highways, is a far cry from those happier times of yore. I gave up bus driving finally five and a half years ago and wouldn’t want to go back to it except for classic vehicle jaunts. Also, as you say, these present day monsters of the bus fleets have about as much individual character as the wallpaper pattern in a Chinese restaurant. And as for some of these “modern” liveries, words fail me (and many will testify that this is an extreme rarity!).
I. too, remember (painfully) those Daimler preselectors. At Halifax, it was accepted practice not to warn the novice drivers about the endearing characteristics of the Daimler box. When it happened to me, the pedal came out half a mile (or so it seemed) giving me a hefty smack on the knee against the steering wheel in the process. I thought that I had broken the thing. The pedal was solid, and the bus remained obstinately in neutral. In sheer desperation, I swung round in the seat, and hoofed the pedal hard with both feet, finding, to my relief, that it went back to its proper place and behaved itself again. One could always pick out other sufferers with “Daimler knee” – they could be seen limping about the depot in a fair imitation of Laurence Olivier in Richard III.

Roger Cox

22/01/12 – 06:54

Frank 185 was the first Atlantean on the road for Bolton as I recall. And do you further remember an Atlantean was one of the stars of the film The Family Way starring Hayley Mills and Hywell Bennett

Tony

20/03/12 – 07:16

How I agree with Chris and Roger regarding modern vehicles and drivers, I always think with todays buses it is a case of point and steer and then hit the brakes almost as hard this combined with built in retarders and fully automatic gearboxes that nearly always change into low gear just as the bus stops make for an unpleasant ride. I know traffic conditions today demand some easing of the drivers lot but the semi-automatic systems of not so long ago were very easy to use and left the driver in control and able to give a smooth ride, however the easy use also meant easy abuse if a driver couldn’t be bothered but at least you had a choice. I too learnt to drive on a PD1 JK 9113 of Eastbourne Corporation in 1962 and I am glad that I was able to drive the characterful and interesting buses around at that time and not the mainly ugly soulless modern types at least I could give my passengers a comfortable ride at any time.

Diesel Dave

20/03/12 – 11:20

The seventies film Spring and Port Wine starring James Mason was also filmed in the Bolton area. Scenes on a bus were shot using the Leyland/Park Royal demonstrator KTD 551C. This bus later ran for Woods of Mirfield

Chris Hough

20/03/12 – 16:04

Right, Dave. You can often barely move in a “smooth modern bus” between stops because of the G-forces and sloping floors. You can only stand up and hang on! There is no need for stop/go driving like this: we can all do it, but not with passengers!
In the good old days you had long smooth braking- because that’s all they would do- with sound effects: although engine-braking using a Daimler preselector could explore the rev range a bit….
PS Anyone found a recording of a CVD6?

Joe

21/03/12 – 07:20

I’m waiting for someone to come up with that CVD6 recording as well. If there are no takers, is anyone planning a visit to the next Lincoln event? Could be a possibility to capture the sounds of the ex-Colchester Roberts vehicle – preferably with some hill starts!

Stephen Ford

21/03/12 – 07:22

There is of course another factor to take into account, buses now don’t have conductors, and at one time it was a easier to just drive the bus properly rather than suffer a constant ear bashing from a conductor who found it hard to walk around the bus unless it was stationary.

Ronnie Hoye

23/03/12 – 06:35

Ronnie has a very valid point regarding smooth driving and conductors as I started my career on the buses as a conductor and you very quickly learnt to pick out the best drivers to work with and those you hated your weeks of bumps and bruises with. When I started driving I tried not to do the things I hated as a conductor this I think kept me honest and I hope comfortable for the next 41 years. I find this site the most enjoyable on the internet as it lets me ramble on to my hearts content about the good old days to like minded soul, long may you prosper.

Diesel Dave

10/04/12 – 06:28

Totally agree with the comments on modern buses. They just don’t register with me at all and I have no interest in them, whereas proper buses have a character and individuality of their own. I never worked on the buses but travelled on them thousands of times as a child in the 60s and a teenager in the 70s when I used them for school. I lived in Radcliffe, and my favourites were Bury Corporations PD3s with Weymann bodies.
I remember them struggling up the very steep hill at the bottom of Stand Lane in Radcliffe on the way to Whitefield on the 65 with a full load and used to admire the way the drivers coped with these huge heavy looking buses.
The PD2s always seemed a bit lighter and easier to handle, don’t know if this was true. My interest started to go in the 80s after the ex municipal buses had gone. I liked the Selnec/GMT Standard Atlanteans/Fleetlines as well, but after those I sort of lost interest and after deregulation I completely gave up

David Pomfret

10/04/12 – 11:33

Re Smooth driving. As with David above, I have never had any involvement with buses except as a passenger when young so reading that a lot of favourite vehicles were misery to drive is very fascinating. From my first driving lesson I was always told to imagine that I had an egg in a dish stuck to the bonnet and that I had to keep it from rolling out. Does anyone remember that Jackie Stewart the racing driver ran a promotion with Ford Motor Co, in 1973/4 whereby drivers were challenged to drive a Ford Cortina Mark III with a tennis ball in a dish held to the bonnet only by a woollen blanket?
As regards bus driving, an old family friend, Lionel Coles who drove for Bristol Omnibus Company (often on the 88 to Radstock) was always very smooth but I also remember the gearbox crunches that so many K/KSW’s suffered in my school journey home on the number 1 to Cribbs Causeway when climbing the hill to Eagle Road, Brislington, Bristol. The fitters must have drained many ounces of iron filings!!

Richard Leaman

17/04/12 – 14:22

Southampton’s Atlanteans were of the East Lancs “Bolton” style, but without the fairing over the bustle. They used the Bolton style of livery, with the Manchester shade of red – Bill Lewis came to Southampton from Manchester. Strangely, he didn’t apply this lighter shade to the Arabs, Titans and Regents. When Blackpool started to buy Atlanteans, the Committee visited the East Lancs factory, where some were being built for Southampton, and adapted Southampton’s livery to have the extra stripe.

Pete Davies

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

04/01/16 – 06:21

Any owner can do what they like with a vehicle. And having owned a North Western Bristol L5G I know many of the problems. Initially I was anxious to have it in original cream roof livery and did so but red roof spray paint colours would be just as legitimate. It spent 5 of its 13 years in service like that. The important thing us to have records that show changes.
CDB 206 is now in better condition then when I had it. Proper full length grab rails at entrance now. But the roof is all cream and no grey rectangle in the middle. Often forgotten.
Does it natter? Not now, but we should comment for the records. The generations that come after us will have no memory at all. We owe it to them to keep accurate records.

Bob Bracegirdle