Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1969 Bristol VR/SL6G ECW H43/34F
We don’t yet have any pictures of the Bristol VR on OBP, so here is one of the early examples that earned something of a dubious reputation. Sitting in the 1976 spring sunshine at Ely depot is Eastern Counties VR 316, NGM 157G, a VR/SL6G with ECW H43/34F body. As its typically Scottish destination aperture indicates, this was one of the first production batch of VRs that went to the Scottish Bus Group, where their unreliability became the stuff of legend. SBG took a total of 109 VRs, 25 of which were of the 33ft long VRT/LL type:- Alexander (Midland), 15 VRT/SL6G; Central SMT, 20 VRT/SL6G; Eastern Scottish, 10 VRT/SL6G; Scottish Omnibuses, 25 VRT/LL6G; Western SMT, 39 VRT/SL6G. After this early VR experience, the SBG never bought any more Bristol double deckers. The full, sad story may be found at this site:- www.svbm.org.uk/lfs288f.html In 1971, Alexander (Midland) exchanged its fifteen VRTs for fifteen Eastern National FLF6Gs. Thus emboldened, SBG determined to get rid of the rest of its utterly unloved (and, it has to be said, uncared for) VRs in exchange for Gardner engined FLFs. Among the recipients designated by NBC was United Counties, who cannily sent a Lodekka north of the border, only to have it summarily rejected by virtue of its Bristol powerplant. UCOC thus escaped the fate of some fellow NBC operators, and had no Scottish VRs thrust upon it. Eastern Counties was not so lucky, and ultimately had a total of 33, some being of the particularly troublesome 82 seat VRT/LL6G 33ft long variety. The mechanical condition of all these machines on arrival was atrocious. NGM 157G, a VRT/SL6G, entered service with Central SMT in December 1969, but lasted there only until 1973, when it was despatched with six others of the same type to Eastern Counties. The other Central SMT VRs went to Alder Valley, Lincolnshire, Southern Vectis and United Auto. VR 316 survived to pass into the hands of Cambus in August 1984, when it gained the new number 503. It was ultimately scrapped, date unknown. Astonishingly, four of the former SBG VRs seem to have been preserved, two of them ex ECOC.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
16/10/14 – 04:34
By coincidence, yesterday I met an enthusiast who was formerly a member of United Automobile’s management. He told me about the arrival of the VRT’s transferred to United from Western SMT. They were collected from Carlisle, and found to be in appalling condition. However they were all overhauled before entering service, and afterwards led full, trouble-free lives with United. Alexander Midland’s fifteen VRT’s were all transferred to Eastern National as part of the exchange scheme, and many of these were eventually transferred to Crosville around 1981/2 following the MAP scheme, which required more double-deckers in rural North Wales. Most of these were allocated to Bangor Depot, but we had SMS 43H at Caernarfon Depot, where it was a great favourite of mine. At first the four speed gearbox seemed an oddity, but despite this the bus performed well and I often drove it on duties which it would not normally have operated; in particular I often took this VR on the “last Llandudno” in preference to the scheduled Olympian; I also often took it on the Porthmadog route and over the Llanberis Pass on the Snowdon Sherpa. I can’t help feeling that the Scottish Bus Group gave up too easily with these buses.
Don McKeown
16/10/14 – 14:33
Ironic. My CAPTCHA code for this response is 3DMS! Nevertheless, as one of Bristol’s biggest fans the VR was one of my least favourites. I know the LH probably was worse and I’m no lover of any of the 5 cylinder models but the VR suffered from the same disease as many buses which came before and after. It was rushed onto the market with insufficient R & D so it neither had the character of its predecessors nor the good manners and reliability of the RE. One could say, however that the Series IV got it right. Series IV? Well what was the Olympian? A successor which started out as a Bristol and a development of the VR. Not only that. It became a classic and one of the best deckers ever built.
David Oldfield
16/10/14 – 14:33
What a very interesting link, thanks for posting it.
Roger Broughton
17/10/14 – 05:20
This photo brings back happy memories of Cambridge Rd., ELY, where I grew up, and the depot where my uncle, Walter Long worked for E.C.O.C. as a conductor up until retirement, finishing up at Hills Rd., Cambridge depot. I also worked for them, first as a crew driver, then OMO at Cambridge. One Saturday, a rest day…two of us were sent to Norwich with two LKDs which would barely reach 35 mph in the pouring rain to bring back two Scottish VRs. It was terribly slow progress, but on our return journey, the sun came out, and I for one really enjoyed the drive back. The two VRs were the subject of great interest amongst the drivers, being slightly larger than the ones we already had with a higher seating capacity, and the triangular destination panel. I remember that their livery was yellow, but cannot recall where they were from exactly. It was a very nice piece of overtime, and we all thought that we had got the best of the bargain in the exchange that day.
Norman Long
17/10/14 – 05:21
That’s a fascinating article on the SVBM website. Could SBG have persevered with its VRTs and resolved the problems? or was SBG determined to revert to a sort of technological dark-age?? (witness the subsequent preponderance of high-floor/manual gearbox/non-power-assisted SDs … even on Central’s largely urban network). Is Ely depot still open? (presumably it would be Stagecoach now).
Philip Rushworth
19/10/14 – 05:49
Roger- this tale and the link are fascinating. The bus we thought was blameless wasn’t: Wulfrunian, Atlantean, VR: can anyone dish the dirt on the Fleetline or did Daimler get it so right when the Roadliner got it so wrong? Then of course Hilditch’s (was it?) Dominator of which we do not speak on this site? SBG did not seem to trust new technology, even if it worked and when it didn’t, well… it also seemed to distrust its drivers. There were of course engineers like this, even perhaps including Donald Stokes whose Triumph Herald could only be described as primitive- a sort of third world concept of basic, accessible engineering: the irony being that these VR’s ended up with Herald bonnet latches. The VR’s I knew had exhaust sounds that any boy-racer would be proud of…and every time one comes up I ask here about those hatches which could have been rear engine Cave Brown Caves but through which you sucked the top-deck fag ends: is that so? did they work? What an essay in political interference, swinging first one way, then the other- and the futility and waste of command economies applied through the grant. The locals think they are in charge, and take the rap for failure… but we pull the financial strings. NHS, Buses, Rail, Education… what else?
Joe
20/10/14 – 06:58
I was given a Triumph Herald 13/60 by my company on the pretext that the small printing machines we had to demonstrate could be easily slid in and out of the lip-less boot (not to mention the fact that the company was too mean to buy estate cars). When it had to be replaced we ended up with Vauxhall Viva Estates. I know which I preferred, and it wasn’t built in Luton or Ellesmere Port.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/10/14 – 06:59
The Ely garage closed quite many years ago. After closing as an operational garage the forecourt (where the VR in the photo is parked) was used as an outstation location for a while. I only live about 14 miles from Ely but when I do visit I don’t travel along the road where the garage was. I seem to recall the site was where the cluster of newish houses now is to the north of Samuels Way. I can’t recall if the Ely garage site ever got into Stagecoach ownership – it may have been sold under the pre-Stagecoach owned Cambus.
David Slater
20/10/14 – 17:07
Words like Devil and Deep Blue Sea or Frying Pan and Fire spring to mind over your car choice, Phil. At least a heavy printing machine might stop the rear wheels folding up too often, but if I recall the boot floor wasn’t flat? The Herald had more character than a soulless Viva, at least…
Joe
20/10/14 – 17:08
When the organisation, I worked for was privatised, company car were instituted for those who travelled a fair amount. It started with Talbot Horizons, with the Tagora for more senior staff. I managed to reject the Tagora because I discovered that they would not allow towing bars to be fitted – it lowered the value, they said, not realising that there was no second-hand value in them to start with! In point of fact, I had no caravan! The next, middle-manager cars were Montegos and I did the same again. Eventually late-model Ford Sierras came along and the excuse of a caravan enabled me to get a 2.0 litre GLX. I never fitted a towbar, though! The seats in it were the most comfortable I’ve ever known, enabling me to drive all day with never an ache! With cars like Talbots and Maestro/Mondeos, it’s no wonder we have no indigenous car industry nowadays!
Chris Hebbron
20/10/14 – 17:09
For those who may wish to check out the location, the garage was on the A10- Cambridge Rd., ELY, on the left as you head north, just before the right hand bend where the road becomes St Mary’s St.
Norman Long
21/10/14 – 06:14
Norman has given the location of the Ely depot as I remember it. Back in time, the A10 went right through Ely centre, along Cambridge Road, St Mary’s Street and then Lynn Road, and the bus depot faced directly on to it. I believe that the place did pass into Cambus ownership, but I don’t know when it was pulled down. Sadly, the typical Tilling garage of which Ely was an example, is a rarity nowadays. Turning to Chris’s point, I have to disagree. I’ve driven company cars of several origins, including Ford, Chrysler/Talbot and Vauxhall, and had a 2 litre Montego for my daily 100 mile round journey to/from work whilst at Kentish Bus. In performance, roadholding, reliability and interior space, it beat the Sierra and Cavalier of the Chief Engineer and Company Secretary respectively hands down. When I left, thanks to privatisation, I bought a Maestro. The BL knocking game was utterly childish, and yes, I once had an Allegro, a model that received stupid criticism from people who had never even sat in one. The quartic steering wheel that petrolheads waffle on about disappeared within the first year, and all could be replaced under warranty. The much derided styling foreshadowed the almost universal blobby shapes of present day saloon cars. Our first (1981) Metro lasted 19 years and still passed its MoT when I decided to replace it.
Roger Cox
21/10/14 – 15:05
Joe, the Herald 13/60 had a flat boot floor. The printing machines weighed 112lbs with more than half the weight on a less than a third of the machine platform so a flat, lip-less boot was essential. As for performance, the car was nippy, had a great turning circle and great visibility with narrow pillars. It also had height adjustable seats.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/10/14 – 07:14
Thanks for the information about Ely depot: as I get progressively less interested in current operations its the relics of times past that increasingly interest me. I used to aspire to owning a new Montego, being a quality (well in my opinion – and a step up from the Triumph Dolomite/Van den Plas 1750 I was then driving) British-built and British-owned car that I could afford. Now, I’m running Audi and Skoda as there isn’t any British owned and built car within a reasonable price bracket.
Philip Rushworth
21/04/15 – 06:18
This picture brings back memories, I used to spend a lot of time here as a bus mad school boy and remember the Eastern Counties staff there being very tolerant and patient towards a young enthusiast like myself. Behind the garage on a patch of land they used to park up withdrawn vehicles from Cambridge garage, I remember their last two Bristol RESL being there for ages and also a pair of ex Cambridge FLFs. I remember the ex SBG long VRLLs but by the time I was interested they were all allocated to Norwich depot, never realised how special they were, being more interested in the Bristol Lodekka LFS, FLF and LFL that were still running about at the time.
Brian Kay
28/07/17 – 16:37
We were unlucky to receive some of the SBG VR,s at Alder Valley in Reading, the union blacked them for a while because of their 4 speed gearboxes claiming they were too slow on the longer routes. When we started receiving mk 2 VR’s some non power assisted ones were fitted with Alder Valley’s own air assisted steering, these were terrible as the steering used to go solid at low speed which did not feel safe. The Mk.3 was a big improvement, nice steering and gearbox especially the very last batch we had with good heaters by your feet at last!
Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1957 Bristol SC4LK ECW B35F
Before researching the facts about the Bristol SC for this caption, I had somehow presumed that Crosville would have been the largest customer for the type. In fact I was surprised to find that they were only the third largest, having bought a total of 79. 323 were built altogether between 1954 and 1961, being supplied to nine BTC operators. Lincolnshire Road Car had the most with an amazing 113, and Eastern Counties was in second place having bought 88. One of the latter’s examples is shown here preparing to depart the former Drummer Street Bus Station in Cambridge on 11th July 1970. LC540 (VVF 540) was an SC4LK with E.C.W. B35F body, new in 1957 and withdrawn in 1971.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
06/10/13 – 08:10
Memories of childhood visits to Skeggie, Ingoldmills and Cleethorpes. I think they were pretty little rural buses – but the puny 4 cylinder engines did nothing for me.
David Oldfield
06/10/13 – 11:35
Geographically, United must have been one of the biggest of the Tilling group companies, and I imagine the fleet went well into four figures. Several rural depots would only have two or three vehicles, but I don’t ever remember seeing one of this type in the Newcastle area. But that’s not to say they didn’t have any, can anyone enlighten us?
Ronnie Hoye
06/10/13 – 14:31
As David says, the SC’s were bonny looking little buses, but their looks betrayed the reality ! Despite serving many and widespread rural areas United sensibly stayed well clear of the model – imagine an SC with a full load of happy holidaymakers climbing Lythe Bank out of Sandsend. They wouldn’t have been so happy for long, nor been able to hold much of a conversation !
John Stringer
06/10/13 – 17:44
Another trip to the best served destination in East Anglia, the mythical town of SERVICE!
Nigel Turner
06/10/13 – 18:01
I recall trying one of Lincolnshire Road Car’s SC4LKs on the town service during my time working in Goole between 1966 and 1969. It is a long time ago now but I remember thinking they did not bear comparison with the “proper” buses I had become used to in Sheffield!
Stan Zapiec
06/10/13 – 18:23
“Service” may well have been the best served destination in East Anglia but “Duplicate” was equally well served in Crosville’s bailiwick during the 1950s – and often without a route number! Whilst on the subject of “helpful” destinations. Can anyone enlighten me on the difference between “Reserved”, “Special” and “Private”, all three of which appeared together on the blinds of many North West municipality vehicles. I can see reasons for each but a vehicle reserved for a special trip for a private party would probably cause some head scratching for the crew as to which blind to set!
Phil Blinkhorn
06/10/13 – 18:24
I don’t think I’ve ever before seen a picture of one of these buses in red and cream, and they appear even prettier when dressed thus. This is no reflection of course on their many sisters who seemed to prefer green frocks.
Chris Youhill
07/10/13 – 08:25
I have many happy memories of rides on SC4LK’s, mostly with Crosville, but also Cumberland, Vaggs of Knockin Heath and Silver Star of Caernarfon. They were incredibly characterful, with enjoyable sounds and at times a lively performance, although they struggled on hills. The only down side was the lack of forward vision, with partitions and handrails round the forward entrance. United didn’t have any SC’s, but if they had it is unlikely that they would have been used to climb Lythe Bank the SC4LK was a “niche model” used on minor, lightly loaded rural routes, usually on narrow lanes. The SC4LK was reputed to do 20 – 25 mpg in service. This is probably the main reason they were so popular among the North Wales independent operators.
Don McKeown
07/10/13 – 08:26
Apart from the 88 which went to Eastern Counties, only 15 SCs were built for “red” operators. So just under a third of the total built were red. Three Eastern Counties SCs are preserved, but the other 17 known survivors are all green.
Geoff Kerr
07/10/13 – 09:32
Thanks Geoff, I’ve never actually travelled on one of these buses and would like to do so sometime – maybe I’ll come across one at a rally, and red or green wouldn’t matter for a “test ride.”
Chris Youhill
07/10/13 – 13:58
…..but at least they were lighter, and therefore better, than the other Eastern Counties specials; 4LW powered Ls, let alone the LS4LW!
David Oldfield
07/10/13 – 13:59
Don’t think I ever rode on one. Of course, the SC was the only Bristol type never to have been operated by Bristol Tramways/Omnibus!
Geoff Kerr
07/10/13 – 14:00
They were quite adequate for many parts of Lincolnshire, where gradients are unknown, and spot-heights on old Ordnance Survey maps only occasionally rose to the dizzy height of 20 feet above sea level! Lincolnshire RCC had a network of rather infrequent routes serving these fenlands, where, no doubt, they served adequately and economically. However I remember encountering one on a Winter Sunday evening about 1958, on route 3 from Cleethorpes to Lincoln. This service crossed the ridge of the Lincolnshire wolds, and in the region of Binbrook where there were gradients as steep as 1 in 6. The almost full SC4LK made very heavy weather of it – walking pace, and a deafening scream in first gear.
Stephen Ford
07/10/13 – 14:01
The best served ‘place’ these days is surely “SORRY – NOT IN SERVICE”. A lady passenger once complaining to me about the lack of service said she was going to move there, as all the buses seemed to go to it.
Stephen Howarth
07/10/13 – 17:42
Was it the SC that was known as the Tilling Bedford? The niche in the market and engine output were similar to the SB but, more to the point, the axles were supplied by Bedford.
David Oldfield
07/10/13 – 17:44
The bus in this photo should be showing “WATERBEACH” for service 150, from Drummer St., it travelled along Newmarket Rd., and via Clayhithe. I used to ride home on these vehicles from school at Soham to Ely service 116, and only nine years later I was driving them. They were OK in the fens, but I didn’t like them as they were noisy and rattled a lot, plus having to twist round in one’s seat to issue tickets. The gear positions were different as well and it was a real disappointment to get one allocated for a duty, usually as a replacement bus after a breakdown.
Norman Long
08/10/13 – 07:44
The figures in the caption are interesting; 323 built of which a total of 280 were purchased by the three mentioned companies, only leaving 43 for the rest! In the 1960s my sister lived in various locations in the Barmouth area and I’m fairly sure I will have had one or two trips on these. From recollection the services north of Barmouth were in the hands of firstly Bristol Ks and later a Lodekka (for many years DLB 911) but an SC could sometimes be found on the S34 to Dolgellau.
Dave Towers
09/10/13 – 08:25
Ever plagued by if-only-osis, I can’t help wishing that Gardner had been able to offer a 4LK with an extra half inch on the bores, ie 4.25″ instead of 3.75″, which would have boosted the capacity from 3.8 to nearly 4.9 litres. The extra torque would have improved acceleration and hill-climbing enormously, and with the engine running at lower revs for much of the time things would have been quieter too. The SC4LK’s excellent fuel consumption probably wouldn’t have suffered either. Even more exciting: there’s a YouTube of a turbo-charged 4LK (definitely NOT a Gardner option) in some vehicle or other. Considering the difficulty of fitting an off-the-peg turbocharger to any engine not designed to take one, it would be interesting to hear how this owner’s engine fares over the long term. All that aside, an “official” 4LKTC would have transformed the Bristol SC. A question to Norman Long, with his SC driving experience: Was the steering as nice as on heavyweight Bristols, or did it all feel a bit Bedfordish?
Ian Thompson
09/10/13 – 17:41
Reply to Ian… I seem to remember that SC’s, which we all referred to as LC’s, were not at all heavy to drive, certainly not when compared with MW’s (to us LM’s). I have driven a few Bedford Coaches (again, to us CB’s), and I think they were heavier. I didn’t like the thinness of the steering wheels on the early Bedfords (same as the TK lorry) and much preferred a nice fat wheel that one can haul round on a slow corner much more comfortably, especially if there is no power steering fitted. Another thing about the SC’s was that they were very draughty in the winter and you really would need an overcoat!!!
Norman Long
11/10/13 – 06:59
Here are two more photos of Eastern Counties Bristol SC4LKs. TVF 533 (ECOC LC533) is seen in Cambridge, Drummer Street Bus Station on 26 August 1959 on yet another timetabled journey to the intensely bussed destination of “Service”. It is, in fact, on one of the rural routes out towards Ely. This bus was delivered to the operator in January 1957.
6559 AH (LC 559), dating from September 1959, is pictured (if my recollections are correct) near RAF Watton in August 1960. Remarkably, it is displaying its correct destination ‘Norwich’. Much of the old Watton airfield has now been obliterated by new housing development.
Tillingbourne had three SCs in 1971, two of which (TVF 537 and 6560 AH) began life with ECOC, whilst the third (790 EFM) came from Crosville. As other contributors have pointed out, the David Brown gearbox had a curious selector sequence. R/1/2&3 were in the logical positions popularised by the AEC Reliance, with R&1 protected by a detente spring from accidental engagement. Sadly, this spring became very weak over time, and one had to watch out not to pull away in reverse rather than second gear. From third gear, the stick had to be manoeuvred in an inverted ‘U’ fashion back again to engage fourth, and fifth lay immediately forward of fourth. The Tillingbourne SCs were often used on the hilly Guildford – Peaslake service which included a long climb up the scarp face of the North Downs from Shere to Newlands Corner, and, in the opposite direction, the lengthy drag up the dip slope from Merrow to Newlands Corner. This topography was very different from the flat lands of East Anglia and Lincolnshire, though the Crosville examples would probably have met some hills in their lives. The 3.8 litre Gardner 4LK developed 57 bhp at 2100 rpm, and it certainly spent much of its life at those revs in the SC, with deleterious effects upon one’s hearing. Later production 4LKs were rated at 60 bhp, though I cannot believe that this would have made any material difference. The gaps between the gears meant that the engine had to be taken to high revs to change up, but, on the rare occasions when fifth could be engaged (downhill or with a following wind on the flat) this little bus could fly. The 4LK certainly had to work hard in the SC, but its reputation for reliability was always exemplary. I believe that only the axles for the SC were sourced from Bedford. As far as I can now recall, the steering was entirely positive in action.
Roger Cox
11/10/13 – 16:05
By the time I started working for E.C.O.C. in 1970, the Bristol SC’s were on their last legs, and we were enjoying the comparative luxury of driving RLE’s etc.. although a town duty was almost always a Bristol LKH or LKD/LFS; the North Arbury route (130) was allocated the more powerful 6cyl FLF’s with more seats available. The LKH’s were withdrawn around 1971 I think…such a long time ago! A very nice photo of TVF 533 leaving Drummer Street, Cambridge. It’s correct destination should read— 120 Gt Eversden, travelling through Grantchester and Barton which is to the south west of the city.
Norman Long
12/10/13 – 07:52
Thanks for your correction about route 120, Norman. I was working from memory (a decidedly risky procedure at my time of life) and did not check my recollections with Paul Carter’s comprehensive volume “Cambridge 2”.
Roger Cox
13/10/13 – 08:01
The suggestion made by Ian Thompson of a 4LK with the increased 4¼ bore of the LW is, in fact, more than a pipedream. Latil in France were Gardner agents, and they did make such an engine, which proved to be powerful and reliable. Quite what became of the project later is lost in the mists of time, but one can imagine the response of the somewhat megalomaniac Hugh Gardner towards an engine that he could not claim as his own entire creation.
Roger Cox
13/10/13 – 08:02
Can “Cambridge 2” still be obtained Roger?…and is it a book about Cambridge in general, or about the city buses…If so, I would very much like to own a copy.
Norman Long
13/10/13 – 09:56
Norman, There are two books on this subject by Paul Carter. ‘Cambridge 1’ covers the period up to around 1950, and ‘Cambridge 2’ from that time up to deregulation. They are published by Venture Publications of 128 Pike’s Lane, Glossop, Derbyshire SK13 8EH (tel. 01457 861508) who should be able to help you find copies. This publisher does not have a web page. Paul Carter has also written a comprehensive history of Premier Travel.
Venture Publications may not have a website, but the associated MDS Books at the same address has a very extensive one at www.mdsbooks.co.uk Presently both Venture’s ‘Cambridge 1’ and ‘Cambridge 2’ are on special offer at £8 each.
John Stringer
13/10/13 – 12:08
The Cambridge 2 book is currently available as a clearance item at reduced price in the Ian Allan bookshop in Manchester, or at least it was on Friday.
David Beilby
13/10/13 – 16:37
Thank you all very much…I have now ordered a copy of Cambridge 2, as it covers the time I worked for Eastern Counties,…very much looking forward to it’s arrival.
Norman Long
15/10/13 – 07:10
Norman: many thanks for your comments on the steering, and I agree all the way about steering wheels and controls in general: a decently-equipped cab inspires confidence. I’ve never driven an SC or an SU, but the very look of the controls on both suggests that what lies beneath is also solidly made. At Warminster yesterday (Sun 13 Oct) I thoroughly enjoyed a ride on 270 KTA, a lively ex-Western National coach-seated SUL4A, driven with great verve and understanding, but that little engine makes no secret of the hard work it has to do. Congratulations and thanks, by the way, to everyone responsible for the Warminster event, especially on such a soggy day. Roger: I was so interested to hear from you that my fictitious bored-out 4LK had actually been tried that I found a “moteurs Latil” site that lists (almost) all the engines fitted to Latil timber tractors. It seems that the company was a great user of the 4LW (as Unipower was for similar work in Britain) and later also of the 6LW. I couldn’t find the doctored 4LK in question, but I did discover a tractor model H12 of 1949 with a 9.3-litre engine of 114mm (4.488″) bore and 6″ stroke, which must surely have been a modified 6LW—otherwise why the imperial-dimensioned stroke? They also did a model M14 between 1949 and 1955, which had a PETROL version of the 4LW! I realise that I’m way off the bus route, but I greatly enjoyed Chris Y’s Onibury/Stokesay diversion and all those other fascinating spin-offs that have appeared on OBP, just as the background in old photos is often no less interesting than the subject.
Ian Thompson
16/10/13 – 06:47
Ian, the reference to the “big bore 4LK” appears in the book ‘Gardner’ by Graham Edge. This book is now out of print, but I understand that it is to be reprinted by Old Pond Publishing to whom Graham Edge has sold his publishing business. Incidentally, Graham Edge (aka Gingerfold) is a contributor to a discussion forum on Gardner engines, mainly lorry orientated, that runs to no less than 52 pages. www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/ The differing views of contributors become heated to the point of vitriolic personal abuse in places, but some facts do emerge. For example, the well known external oiliness of Gardners lay with Hugh Gardner’s aversion to the use of gaskets on many external mating surfaces. When rebuilt by operators with jointing compound, much of the problem was resolved. (I wouldn’t recommend trawling through the whole 52 pages in one go; the thing gets very, very repetitive.)
Roger Cox
16/10/13 – 06:48
Ian, with regard to Roger’s comments, the French Latil and Bernard concerns built Gardner engines under licence, paying royalties to Gardner in the process. Both vehicle builders increased the bore size (and in some cases the rpm) of the Gardners in pursuit of more power, and Latil carried out this modification on ‘le 4LK’ as well as ‘les 4LW et 6LW’ engines. This could explain the 114mm (4.488″) bore and 9.3 litres capacity you mentioned, which I presume would have been a Latil modification of the 6LW design. What the top brass at Patricroft thought of this can only be imagined, but no doubt ‘Mr Hugh’ may well have thrown his hands up in the air, spun around three times and locked himself in the nearest cupboard.
Brendan Smith
16/10/13 – 12:02
Thanks for the information about Gardner Roger. I have always had the utmost respect for Gardner products, but must admit they did, as you say, have an external oiliness about them in certain areas. The castings were of excellent quality, but many of us couldn’t understand why joints/gaskets were fitted to some components and not others. Sumps for example did not have gaskets, and tended to be one of the areas prone to oiliness. At West Yorkshire, engineering staff used jointing compounds which usually did the trick. In the main we used Good Year gasket shellac (which was a rich brown colour and smelled pleasantly sweet) or ‘Hylomar’ jointing compound (apparently formulated for Rolls-Royce. This was dark blue and didn’t smell as nice!) Quite why Gardner did not fit even simple cardboard sump joints in the first place is a good question, but I’m sure Hugh Gardner would have given an equally good answer…. They were still fine engines though and no mistake.
Brendan Smith
10/04/14 – 07:25
I remember the SC’S well as a few for Eastern Counties ran around the Yarmouth area during the 60’s and one in particular LC553 a resident at Yarmouth Depot for a number of years.They operated to my knowledge the 6A to Martham, with a few journeys to Hickling, Stalham and Thurne (village no longer served at all by any Company). Also the 19A to Belton, Haddiscoe and Loddon and probably other lightly loaded routes. Only managed to catch one once. Felt sorry for the driver who had to twist round in his seat every stop to collect fares. One example preserved by the Eastern Transport Collection near Norwich.
Richard
26/05/14 – 17:31
ECOC also operated a small number of 33str coach versions of the LC (LSC). In 1968 I bought WAH 875 (LSC 875) from Victoria Coaches, S’end for use in the Bickers of Coddenham fleet. It gave several years of good service. Ipswich Transport Society used it for the last day of Bradford trolleys. Flat out from Ipswich up the A1 overnight – filled up in Bradford with 7 gals! Axles were Austin / BMC, not Bedford.
Eric Mouser
22/03/18 – 06:39
I well remember the SC4LK operating for a while when I went up to Cambridge as my girlfriend at the time was at Girton College and if I felt lazy or drank too much the 129 route proved useful in getting back to my digs in central Cambridge, I used to love these vehicles and eventually made a model of the bus from an Anbrico white metal kit which I still have in my model bus collection! Oh those really were the days!
David Kerr
24/03/18 – 08:33
A reminder that Cumberland also had some SC buses for use on lightly loaded country services. Taken in 1970 I think the location is Carlisle – I know I was about to board 202 for a scenic ride to somewhere but I no longer have any maps for the area.
Ken Newton
13/12/18 – 06:18
Tillingbourne of Chilworth bought this former Eastern Counties SC4LK of 1959, 6560 AH, former fleet number LC 560, in February 1971 and it is seen here ascending the bottom of Guildford High Street on Saturday 29 May 1971 en route to Warren Road. I drove this bus several times myself over the taxing route across the North Downs (at high decibels) to Peaslake until its disposal to Sykes (dealer) at Barnsley after May 1972. There is no further record of it being used as a psv, and by February 1974 it appears to have been sold to another dealer, Carlton, for scrap.
Roger Cox
14/12/18 – 06:16
Roger; I can’t remember any buses climbing the High St other than the short length up as far as Quarry St before turning right towards Shalford. But that wouldn’t lead towards Warren Rd. I suspect that this has just turned right out of Farnham Rd bus station and will then turn right again before going round the loop to Bridge St- Onslow St and North St, in order to get to the top of the town.
John Lomas
14/12/18 – 09:17
John, yes, you are right. The Old Town Bridge is behind the bus in the right hand top corner. I was (totally unaccountably – my wife comes from Guildford) thinking of the Farley Green route that that I often worked on Saturdays; this did follow High Street/Quarry Street on the way to Shalford. The Warren Road service lasted only a few months longer after this picture was taken as it was withdrawn on 16 October 1971.
Roger Cox
23/09/19 – 05:56
I attach a link to a page I created, with a hope to get one dearly named Elise transported from one end of Ireland to other… as a temporary living space. It has been converted inside. She does not drive anymore but it all kitted out. I did not get any support unfortunately… mostly people do not seem to care for these types of campaigns… oh well. I have not given up. She needs a low loader to do the 400KM journey. I need to give the potential driver the tonnage. Can anyone help with that? She is a 1957 model, Bristol SC reg no. VVF 551 fleet no. LC551, LC is where she got her nickname from ELSIE. Be grateful for advise on the weight. I will keep putting the pennies in the savings pot. The attached link:- is here
Tanya Bryan
26/09/19 – 05:47
I don’t know the answer but I suggest that you contact Patrick Burnside who can definitely answer. His e-mail address can be obtained from his web site www.easterncountiesomnibusco.com
Nigel Turner
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
02/11/19 – 05:50
In response to Tanya Brian’s request for the weight, I can give an indication of the weight as built because the SC was designed as a lightweight vehicle and clocked in at just under 4 tons – that’s British Imperial tons by the way; not metric tonnes. Of course, that may not be Elsie’s current weight as, looking at the picture on the website in the link there looks to be a lot of stuff in there which wasn’t part of the original bus. The lengths they went to in order to save every last ounce was quite incredible. Instead of the usual pressed steel channels shaped to clear the rear axle, on the SC the main chassis members are simply two lengths of straight channel which I think is aluminium. Most bus floors are longitudinal floorboards on transverse joists. On the SC there are no joists and the boards are fitted across the chassis members. In addition, the boards are 5/8″ instead of ECW’s usual 7/8″. The seat cushions are an inch thinner than normal service bus seats. Restoring ONV 425 in recent years, I wondered who was apparently damaging the side of the roof. It turned out that another way they saved weight was in the thickness of the aluminium used to sheet the vehicle up. When a ladder was rested against it it produced quite sizeable dents!
I have attached a picture of ONV 425 taken in May this year in Usk, having just driven from Winkleigh (Devon), not I hasten to add, on the motorway.
Peter Cook
11/11/19 – 07:04
Without going to the SC4LK’s lengths in the quest for lightness, I wish the buses and especially coaches of today could shed a ton or two. I do accept that today’s disappointing fuel consumption is due largely to traffic congestion, the need for right-boot-down driving to make up lost time and the use of automatic transmissions, but vehicle unladen weight must also play a part. Of course, the lighter the vehicle itself gets while still carrying the same human tonnage, the cleverer the suspension needs to be to deal with the difference between fully-laden and empty, but I’m sure that cunning technology can brush away that little problem.
Ian Thompson
17/11/19 – 08:49
Ian Having ridden on most Wright products technology does not yet seem to have found a way to eliminate rattles caused by weight saving
Roger Burdett
18/11/19 – 05:43
Roger, when I started my driver training at NGT’s Percy Main Depot in January 1967, the oldest buses still in service were the 1954 H32/26R Weymann Orion bodied G5LW GUY Arab III’s. They were withdrawn later that year. Mechanically, apart from only having a G5LW, they were hard to fault, but far too many corners had been cut to save weight, and the build quality of the bodies was terrible, they were known as rattle traps. To be fair, the later Orion bodies on the 1958 Leyland PD3’s was superb, but as I said, these were terrible. For my money, the best buses we ever had were the Alexander ‘A’ type CRG6LX Daimler Fleetlines, they had it all as far as I’m concerned. I left P/M in 1975, and went to Armstrong Galley, the coaching division of T&W PTE, and only on rare occasions did I ever drive a bus. In 1982, I left buses altogether, and only ride on them as a passenger, but as you say, the rattles seemed to have returned big time.
Ronnie Hoye
23/11/19 – 06:53
Here in Oxford the 4-cylinder Wright double-deckers (whose performance seems perfectly good despite the modest engine size) seem to suffer from sway rather than rattles. The outright winners in the rattle stakes are the awful Mercedes Citaros, with their grabby brakes, inadequate and inconvenient seating and frequent breakdowns. Admittedly the ADL 400Hs do get electrical problems, but in every other way they’re superb—but then they can boast that distinguished Dennis ancestry!
Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1959 Bristol SC4LK ECW B35F
I have the only fully restored red and cream Bristol SC4LK! It is ex Eastern Counties LC 556 (3003 AH). It was new to ECOC in Jan 1959 and served the company for 11 years. Following withdrawal in 1970, it passed via Ben Jordan, the famous Norfolk bus dealer, to Monk Contractors of Warrington as a staff bus. From there it passed to dealer, Martins of Middlewich, who sold the bus on to the Archbishop Sancroft RC High School in Stoke on Trent, where it served as a school bus until 1983. Whilst there, it made the long journey to Brittany in North East France, taking pupils of the school on a field trip. Upon withdrawal by the school, the bus passed to an Oxford bus enthusiast for preservation, but sadly the owner became ill and the bus sat in his garden for a number of years under trees where it slowly adopted an all over green livery! When the enthusiast passed away, his widow sold the bus to Ward Jones, a motor dealer and enthusiast in High Wycombe, together with an Eastern National example (608 JPU) which the Oxford enthusiast also had in his garden. I discovered the bus ‘through the grapevine’ in the summer of 1993 and made an offer for it, which involved salvaging usable parts from the Eastern National one to make the Eastern Counties one complete. The bus was then towed all the way back to her old operating territory and stored on a farm in south Norfolk. Serious preservation then got underway over the next eleven or so years and the restoration was finally completed in Summer 2005. This was my third preservation project, the other two being LM 452 (3014 AH) 1978-84 and LL 711 (KNG 711) 1984-88, both ex Eastern Counties and a 1958 MW5G and a 1950 L5G respectively.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Patrick Burnside
12/03/15 – 16:38
Like Patrick’s other vehicles, this is a superb restoration. It is one of only two SCs that I have ridden on, the other being an Eastern Counties one which was working a crew operated Norwich City service in 1973 at a time of extreme vehicle shortage.
Nigel Turner
12/03/15 – 16:39
Fascinating Patrick, and a creditable restoration. If you have one, could you post a ‘before’ photo?
Chris Hebbron
12/03/15 – 16:40
I used to travel to and from school between Ely and Soham on this type of bus (1960)…maybe even this one, if it ever worked from Ely depot.It would have been nearly new then…Years later, and I found myself driving one or two of them at Cambridge, just before they were withdrawn (1970). They were very noisy…lots of rattles…and that awful gearbox, plus having to turn to the left and issue tickets to passengers boarding behind you. They were referred to by all as LC’s. However, 3003 AH looks really well restored, and the picture brings back happy memories of my time at Hill’s Rd depot, Cambridge.
Norman Long
14/03/15 – 12:54
There is a shot of this bus when it was owned by the Archbishop Sancroft on www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
13/10/15 – 08:48
I only drove an SC (ECOC LC) for a short movement when I was area engineer at ECOC, but the drivers used to tell me that it was the (David Brown off the shelf) gearbox ratios that caused most difficulty with a large ratio jump between 2 and 3 or was it 3 and 4 and hence the need to run the engine to high revs before the up change. Incidentally I saw the prototype SC in service with BT&CC (or was it BOC by then?) – after which they no doubt decided it was not for them. Bristol territory is hilly and I think only one back axle ratio was available for the SC. All Bristol’s Bristol buses had the lowest axle ratio available compared to other operators (In the K, L and MW days it was 6:1 rather than the 5.5:1 – didn’t do much for top speed until the 5th gear appeared on KSWs).
I attach a photo of LC566 – the only one with an all fibreglass body (no panel strapping!) parked at Melton Constable in Autumn 1968 on Service 401 one of the earliest rail-replacement routes that replaced the Gt Yarmouth – Kings Lynn railway.
Geoff Pullin
12/01/17 – 09:10
Responding to Geoff Pullin’s note on the SC, I think the big jump is between 2nd and 3rd. Top speed in 2nd is 15mph, but in 3rd at 15mph the engine struggles. My own reminiscences of the SC as a Bristolian are that I had never even seen one until the opening of the Severn Bridge after which I used to regularly go to such places as the Forest of Dean and Abergavenny where Red & White operated a total of 7. The cab interior is strange, particularly the partition at the rear of the cab and despite seeing them on the road quite a few times in the late 1960’s I don’t think I realised quite what the inside looked like until seeing interior shots on t’internet.
Peter Cook
12/01/17 – 13:56
There was a second fibreglass bodied SC, a “self-coloured” green one for Crosville, 237 SFM, fleet No. SSG 664.
Allan White
13/01/17 – 06:52
Lincolnshire RCC had quite a lot. Fine on the flat lands of South Holland, but contrary to popular opinion, Lincolnshire isn’t ALL flat. I remember travelling on an SC one dark damp Sunday evening about 1959, route 3 from Cleethorpes to Lincoln, and it made heavy weather, very slow and noisy, with lots of 2nd gear, over the Wolds section between Ravendale, Binbrook and Tealby.
Stephen Ford
13/01/17 – 06:53
This is a photograph I took on board Patrick’s SC at the Old Buckenham Rally in August 2015. Patrick is at the wheel. I had never ever ridden on one of the type before.
David Slater
13/01/17 – 09:37
I drove the SC type for Tillingbourne – 2 ex ECOC (TVF 537 & 6560 AH) and 1 ex Crosville (790 EFM) – quite often, usually on the hilly Guildford – Peaslake route that had to surmount the North Downs between Merrow and Shere. The gear positions from the left were: forward for reverse gear, back for first, over and forward again in the central gate for second, back for third, then over to the right and back again in a ‘U’ movement for fourth, and forward from there to engage fifth. One normally started off in 2nd gear, but the detent spring protecting the left hand gate was pretty weak and one had to be careful that reverse wasn’t engaged in error. As I recall, the gap in ratios was between 3rd and 4th, and 5th was a feasible option only on the level and downhill. The SC was an idiosyncratic little machine, and keeping time with it was a challenge, but it was a decent enough little bus and I quite enjoyed driving the type. Yes, it was quite noisy, but nowhere near as raucous as the ear splitting Seddon Pennine IV. Those 3.8 litre 4LK engines were tough little workhorses.
Roger Cox
13/01/17 – 10:06
Lovely period interior picture: I assume that the cream colour is a proper Tilling shade as it looks like that rich homely nicotine colour of fond memory. Notice how it also looks as if the ticket machine is totally unprotected and positioned for a quick exit… and not a camera in sight! Happy days…
Joe
14/01/17 – 07:02
It may be that the ECOC ones had cream ceiling and upper interior sides. The Red & White ones had Rexine on the insides of the window pillars and luggage racks of a colour which might be charitably described as mushroom or uncharitably as sludge. I can only assume the idea was that it would not show cigarette smoke staining as it was pretty much smoke-stain colour in the first place.(I can post a picture to illustrate the colour if anyone is interested). Ceilings were (?broken) white when they started apparently. I remember these colours also as being applied in similar places to the BOC MW saloons of the same period.
Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1950 Bristol K5G ECW H56R
This is a picture taken in my teen-age years of one of my favourite K5G’s which used to regularly run the route 92A to my home council estate in Norwich. Taken in Surrey Street garage on 23rd August 1969 it rests for the night. The bus was withdrawn at the end of March 1970. Surrey Street Bus Station was built on a rising gradient between Surrey Street and Queens Road, and opened in 1936. The garage was huge (able to store 180 buses I believe). The area is still the bus station, but in its place now is a modern bus terminus right on the spot where the garage was.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Graham W
15/08/13 – 17:40
Nice “atmospheric” shot, Graham. Thanks for posting.
Pete Davies
16/08/13 – 06:36
Yes and amazingly the first Eastern Counties bus on the site – just as I was preparing to send one myself to redress the deficiency.
John Stringer
16/08/13 – 14:51
Interesting that the ECOC Ks lasted until 1970. All the Bristol Omnibus ones had gone by 1966. More hills there of course but most were K6A or 6B.
Geoff Kerr
17/08/13 – 16:37
What a great photograph, which brings the memories flooding back from the days when I drove for E.C.O.C at Cambridge (1970-1975). It could easily be mistaken for Hills Road garage, in the late evening when all the buses are back in and cleaned, refuelled etc., ready for the run out. In my day they would have been LKH’s and LKD’s. On freezing winter mornings the exhaust smoke would billow out from the garage as the buses were on cold start, and I can still feel the icy cold steering wheel almost sticking to my hands… gloves were essential for an early start. What would I now give for an opportunity to drive one of these on the 106 up to Girton Corner and back through the city centre and on to Red Cross (now Addenbrooke’s Hospital)
Norman Long
17/08/13 – 16:39
In the submission by Graham W on the ECOC Bristol K5G, he makes mention of the Surrey Street Bus Station built in 1936. Attached is a copy of the ECOC Timetable commencing 25th March 1936 for Norwich Services. ECOC have not wasted a second in advertising the new facility to its passengers by putting it on the front of the latest Timetable. How much more interesting is that cover than the modern day stuff.
Stephen Howarth
02/07/14 – 06:30
I remember the SC with ECOC. Lowestoft had TVF 520 which was deployed on the 20A to Rock Estate. Noisy and slow! Attractive little bus though. Yes, the back axle was a BMC one. The K? attractive bus but with a 5LW decidedly sluggish. Seats were a darn sight more comfortable than the nasty plastic things too many operators are fond of now. The interior was also more welcoming, I think, not having that awful dark grey ceiling you see too often now. LKH 173, OVF 173 was at Lowestoft into the 1970s. As regards driving them, one of the inspectors at Lowestoft described them as “..horrible things to drive..”
Brian Moore
02/07/14 – 11:00
Two lovely pictures above from the days of “real” bus operation. I shall never forget my first encounter with beautiful Cambridge, when I worked for Wallace Arnold and was on my very first tour feeder from Leeds to Southend Airport – no route learning of any kind in those days, and only an inadequate “Roneo stencilled” A4 sheet with scant information for the 207 mile journey. Lunch was at the University Arms – unloading and parking nigh on impossible – after which the sheet advised “via A10/A130 Trumpington High Street” etc etc. By now I was well over an hour late and breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the sign “A10.” I couldn’t help noticing lovely red ECOC Bristols coming the other way showing “Trumpington” and began to worry – surely more than one driver wouldn’t have forgotten to change the destination blind ?? I pulled up and asked a friendly constable about the route and his kindly face looked sorry for me as he said “Oh no, you’re on the A10 to Ely, you should be on the A10 for Royston.” I was now ready to abandon ship and run away but carried on, somehow. I think the only thing that saved my sanity that scorching hot summer day was when I descended a long hill lined with lovely trees into a beautiful unspoilt market town, “Saffron Walden.” Older readers may remember the comedy radio weekly show “Much Binding in the Marsh” in which Richard Murdoch and Kenneth Horne were RAF officers who always asked each other “Are you going to Saffron Walden for the weekend Sir?” I’d always thought that like the title of the show Saffron Walden was an invented “spoof” name !! Eventually arriving at Southend Airport at 7.00pm (two hours late) the rampaging courier, a Spanish man who should have been with me from Leeds but helped himself to two unauthorised days off, cried out “Veeere ‘av you been – ve have dinner in Ostende at 7.30pm.” By now completely drained I asked him where had HE been as it was part of his job to show me the route. I managed to smile to myself with relief at the thought of the Channel Airways Dakota being spectacularly unable to reach Belgium in time for the soup !! After that, the Southend run became one of my favourite jobs which I did often, and during our evenings there I fell in love with the town and the Essex area. The cherry on the cake was the arrangement whereby the coaches were cleaned and refuelled at Prittlewell depot by Eastern National.
Chris Youhill
28/07/14 – 07:49
Like Norman Long, I was also a driver with ECOC at Cambridge. I later moved to St Ives outstation and then Peterborough, by which time the area had become Cambus. At Peterborough I became the regular driver of the by-then-semi-preserved FLF453 with, usually, Ken Johnson on the back. FLF453 was one of the class I also drove regularly whilst it was based at Cambridge. One ‘pig’ of an FLF was 465 which during its last years had only a four speed gearbox fitted. Nobody told unfamiliar drivers about this and they found out the embarrassing way – as I did one day on Victoria Avenue. Regarding the LKH class, the last 7′ 6″ example in Cambridge was 135(HPW 135)and I believe this became the final 7′ 6″ K in the ECOC fleet. Of the 8′ versions, the final pair in Cambridge were 168 (OVF 168) and 269 (LNG 269). The honour of being the final example in Cambridge fell to 269 which I believe just made it into 1971. One of the FAH registered examples, FAH 106, also lingered on in Cambridge almost to the end. It was still running in 1969 anyway. On that very well served destination ‘Service’, I believe the habit of displaying this originated back in ‘tin bible’ days when changing destinations involved a rummage through a hut in Drummer Street. But in later ECOC years ‘Service’ was displayed sometimes out of laziness but sometimes because the bus concerned had come from another depot. The practice of displaying ‘Service’ was officially prohibited if the proper display was available but the inspectors and management never really bothered to enforce it. The practice continued into Cambus days. Displaying ‘Service’ wasn’t really a problem as local people knew the routes and tourists didn’t know the difference between Service, Red Cross, Keynes Road, Foster Road or Fen Estate anyway! The SC4LK (LC) was a horrid, noisy little thing. The back axle was indeed a BMC product (usually quoted as being from Austin) and I think the gearbox was a David Brown effort. The Gardner 4LK engine was essentially the same unit as used in the midget submarines of WWII. On thing I remember the LC for was the enormous reversing lamp on its rear. Also, if memory serves me correctly, there was a bell cord along the saloon ceiling similar to that used by London Transport instead of bell pushes. Cambridge depot had LKH256-260 and possibly 261. Of those 256-8 spent just about all their lives at Cambridge. The KNG (and onwards) registered examples always seemed modern in their day due to having stainless steel (or chrome plated) grab poles and seat grabs. Earlier K’s (HPW, GPW, FAH, FNG etc registrations) usually had wooden seat grabs and grab poles covered in some sort of black plastic. Another difference, not visible on the picture of 255, was the upper deck front grabrails. KNG reg. onwards had two separate grabrails mounted on top of the destination box, whereas earlier K’s had a black rail mounted midway up the front windows and passing right across. From memory the lowbridge LK types similarly differed according to age.
West Yorkshire Road Car Company 1935 Bristol GO5G Eastern Counties L53R
West Yorkshire Bristol GO5G 306 with Eastern Counties L53R body built in 1935 is seen at Bradford Chester Street Bus Station about 1950. It is ready to depart to Baildon via Canal Road and this information is clearly displayed on its “bible” indicator. For its return journey, the conductor or driver would release the side clips on the “bible” to enable the horizontal flap to be turned to show “Bradford.” The intermediate destination points in reverse order would also be revealed on the hidden “page” after which the “bible” was then re-clipped. No doubt the crews welcomed the adoption by West Yorkshire of roller indicator blinds from 1944 onwards, though the operating handles were still outside and involved a clamber over a hot radiator but there was no more awkward lifting of a heavy “bible” metal sheet arrangement. I wonder what injuries occurred and whether there were any compensation claims with handling of the “bible” indicator metal sheets. 306 was withdrawn from service at the end of November 1950 but the “bible” indicators remained in use with West Yorkshire I believe in 1958 with the demise of the last pre-war Bristol L5Gs. Can anybody confirm the date of the last pre-war L5Gs? I have only West Yorkshire fleet lists to 1955.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse
27/02/11 – 08:39
Thank you Richard for sharing with us this wonderfully composed and evocative picture. I have departed from that very spot countless times when I worked for West Yorkshire at Ilkley Depot. We operated services 63/68 to Ilkley and Ben Rhydding via Manningham Lane or Canal Road, and had just one weekday trip to Baildon – out via route 59 and Baildon Road and return via route 61 and Baildon Green. I never had to use the incredible and ludicrous “bible” indicators and, quite rightly, they would never have been permitted in today’s Health and Safety climate – this legislation is often sneered at, and can be “over the top” on occasion but it was certainly sorely needed in those days. At a quick glance it would appear that the last prewar L5Gs were indeed withdrawn in September 1958. Of interest is the “Tilling Group” swivel radiator filler cap, retro fitted to most vehicles in place of the original flat screw down pattern. Thanks once again for a particularly splendid picture.
Chris Youhill
27/02/11 – 11:19
I know I am susceptible to nostalgia, buses being no exception, but this photo has it all for me! As a child, I remember the shape of the ECOC “G” bodies so well, as they contrasted vividly with the post war fleet. They lasted until 1952, as they had provided cover for the company’s “K” type rebodying programme. I can see them now, hurtling down Thornton Road from Denholm, leaving clouds of smoke in their wake. What a place Chester Street was for a young enthusiast. Day trips to Baildon and Ilkley on such delights as 306, and their “J” cousins, and stopping off at Harry Ramsdens on the way back. Most of all, awareness of contrasting shape variations amongst the WY fleet. There was that green hut, full of stacks of spare bible indicators, and, as you exited the bus station, at the little parking area to the right, bus backs of differing profiles would persuade you of the delights of BOVRIL, or else pose the question, “Have you McLeaned your teeth today”? Wonderful memories of a superb fleet in its heyday! Can it be 60 years since the passing of these fine vehicles? Thanks to Richard for this post…. Any more WYRC Co. enthusiasts out there?
John Whitaker
27/02/11 – 11:25
Yes, a lovely picture with much nostalgic value. I didn’t realise that ‘bible’ indicators were still in use as late as 1958 – they lasted until 1955 in York, where I never heard them referred to by any of the older staff as anything other than ‘flap boards’. West Yorkshire must have been very fond of them because they actually converted some of the vehicles they inherited from York Corporation to bibles from blinds. The picture indicates, and I assume from Richard’s description, that the hinge was horizontal and that the flap was raised or lowered. That’s how I remember them, but I have seen photos, (pre-war), clearly showing a vertical hinge where the flap was turned like a page in a book. Can anyone throw any light on this? In addition to being heavy and awkward, a problem with ‘bible’ indicators arose when the vehicle operated on more than one route. It would then be necessary to carry another board, either under the staircase or, on a single-decker, lodged between the bonnet and nearside mudguard. York’s Circle route, with three different destinations, would require a change of board every hour; some photographs suggest an additional slip board, just showing the change in intermediate route points, but I really can’t be sure about that; however the problem was solved, it would have been a tiresome bind for the crews, no doubt. Thank you again, Richard, for this great picture.
Roy Burke
27/02/11 – 16:10
A question for Chris, then… How did you get a 5G like this one up Browgate into Baildon? With great difficulty? I remember the ‘flap boards”on York buses: they gave the York fleet a wonderfully old-fashioned & “foreign” look that went with the rest of the place- and the white boards went with the white “lavatory brick” so often seen in York (sorry- “Yark”)!
Joe
27/02/11 – 20:03
Roy you are quite right – although in the minority there were versions of these boards where the hinge was vertical and the pages turned “book fashion” – I remember them well and they were around after the War also. Additionally there were other lightweight boards with only one narrow line carrying the ultimate destination in black and the route number in red. They were shaped like a letter “H”, with slender legs at either side and the narrow route line midway between bottom and top – these must have been far easier to “hoist aloft” than the full size multi-leaf monstrosities. Joe, you’ll have the Gardner legal team after you!! Slow steady progress in low gears was essential of course, but the big hearted Gardners would go anywhere you know – however Browgate did admittedly often demand first gear. I have a wonderful piece of video which I took on an enthusiasts’ outing on preserved KDG 26. Knowing what was to come I positioned myself on the nearside front seat and the superb and highly competent driver chose just the right moment to execute a masterly change into first gear without the slightest jerk or click. I often wonder to this day how the GO5Gs and similar models managed to achieve Leeds to Harrogate in virtually the same running time as the present day despite having to tackle the ascent to Moortown, Harewood Bank and Almsford Bank and so forth.
Chris Youhill
28/02/11 – 06:45
Eastern Counties were also users of bible indicators although whether they lasted into the fifties I couldn’t say. Lancs United had their own variant on the bible this was the slot in stencil which was a metal stencil which was back lit. The boards were dropped into the indicator box by the conductor. On double deckers the boards were kept under the stairs and would occasionally fall over with a great clatter. Preserved LUT Leyland Tiger 114 CTF 423 a 1938 TS7 with Roe bodywork has had the feature restored and can be seen in its restored glory at this link.
Chris Hough
02/03/11
Strange how Eastern Counties produced a rather nice five bay body on this and then changed to a six bay design on later construction, as on the North Western K5G’s
Chris Barker
02/03/11
In 1934 Keighley-West Yorkshire took delivery of two Bristol G-types – K111/2 (YG 5733/4) – which were the first Bristols to be fitted with Gardner’s new 5LW diesel engine. Previous G-types had been powered by Bristol’s own design of 6-cylinder petrol engine, and indeed the chassis of K111/2 were originally to have been powered by this unit. However they were modified to take the Gardner engines during construction at Bristol, and were subsequently given chassis numbers GO5G.1 and GO5G.2, denoting G-type, Oil engine, 5-cylinder, Gardner. The vehicles were of further historic interest as they were West Yorkshire’s first Bristols and also the first Bristols to be fitted with lowbridge bodywork (in this case 52-seaters by Brush). Further GO5Gs were delivered to WY in 1935 (including the imposingly handsome 306 in the photo), these as mentioned having ECOC bodywork – the forerunners of what would become Eastern Coach Works. Thus started WY’s long and happy relationship with the hallowed trinity of Bristol chassis, Gardner engine and ECW bodywork that lasted into the ‘Bristol’ Olympian era – only thwarted when Leyland short-sightedly closed the Bristol factory in 1983. Regarding Joe’s comment on the progress of 5Gs up into Baildon, I well remember a WY fitter commenting that they might have been plodders but they were unbelievably reliable and very economical. His quote was that “they might be slow but they could pull”t town hall down on a pint o’ diesel!” He may have had a point!
Brendan Smith
03/03/11 – 08:39
I can certainly vouch for Brendan`s comment about the pulling power of WYRC 5LW engined buses. I well remember hearing each cylinder in its separate firing as a G mounted Baildon Brow. They could have gone up a house side without stalling! I have similar memories of 5LW West Yorkshire buses on Garrowby, and Hollins Hills! The AWW batch of 1935 was less common in Bradford, but their reversion to a 6 bay layout was more a return to norm, with the 5 bay batch being very much an exception in ECOC output, a position which continued for the rest of Lowestoft’s pre war production. Strangely enough, photographs of the AWW batch seem to be difficult to find.
John Whitaker
12/04/11 – 05:00
Referring to Chris Hough’s comments dated 28/02/2011, from 1945 to 1950/1 we used to have our annual holiday at Lowestoft and we stayed at a house at the back of the town. The road was part of the Eastern Counties route to Oulton Broad and my recollection is the buses had “Bible Board” indicators. They were not as elaborate as the one in the photo but had a pair of what looked like standard side lights to illuminate the boards in the dark. So it seems they did last until then. Incidentally, the Eastern Counties coachworks were just down the road from the boarding house and, periodically, chassis/engine units were delivered to the works from the manufacturer and they were just that, just a chassis, engine, transmission and wheels (no mudguards). They were driven to the works by a man sat upon a box tied to the chassis and wrapped in multiple overcoats and scarves even in the height of summer! I assume they wore goggles because there was no protection of any sort and it must have been grim in rainy or winter weather. The Health and Safety people would have a major fit if that happened today
Phil Jones
19/04/11 – 19:14
Several sources quote West Yorkshire, and Eastern Counties as being the only users of the so called “bible” indicator. There were detail differences between the “bibles” of the 2 operators, principally with regard to the illuminating “side lights” as used by ECOC. Of all the (superb) Tilling Group (or Ex Tilling after 1948) companies, ECOC was, perhaps the most typical. Flat terrain enabled the extensive use of 4LW as well as Gardner “5”s, and vehicle life was maximised. All in all, it was a fascinating fleet, and one which I, as a West Yorkshire fan, would love to read more about!
John Whitaker
11/03/12 – 07:54
The Ipswich Transport Museum has 4 (unrestored) ECOC/ ECW bodied saloons all ex ECOC. (1 x ADC, 1 x TS B9A, 1 x L5G, 1 x Dennis Ace) A collection of Ipswich area ‘tin bibles’ is on display in the museum………
Eric M
11/03/12 – 09:00
Nearly a year later I have just read Phil J’s memories of the bare chassis arriving at ECW from Bristol Commercial Vehicles. Seeing those brave men drive off from the Works in a convoy of 5/6 at a time was a regular sight when I was young and riding my three wheeler bike to wait by the Works entrance to see them set off. Exactly as Phil says, there was no protection of any kind except a canvas sheet in front of the pedals and that bare box to sit on..gosh it must have been horrible to travel so far..about 160/170 miles on A/B roads back then and on a writhing, floppy chassis with springs set up to take the body weight. They did indeed wear goggles and most wore “Herbert Johnson” motorcycle crash helmets and a scarf over the mouth to combat flies. On a cold Winter’s day it must have been absolute misery for them. Those big overcoats were always a golden fawn colour..until the front got plastered in dirt and oil when they became “two tone” in a rather unusual way!
Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1966 Bristol MW5G ECW B30D+30
One of two strange versions delivered to ECOC at about the time as the first RESLs were being delivered. Who would put a centre door on an MW with its very high centre section of chassis bearing the engine, instead of waiting a few months for a Bristol RE with its unencumbered central lower frame? The centre doors didn’t last long, I understand! I think one of them became the Kings Cliffe outstation (Northants – the furthest outstation from Norwich!) vehicle to carry higher peak loads! Thank goodness for OMO double decks very soon after! The above photograph was taken at Cremorne Lane Works, Norwich on Feb 11, 1967 before the bus entered service. It is nice to know that ECOC buses had destinations other than “SERVICE” available!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
17/03/16 – 05:13
Strange indeed, Geoff. Thanks for posting. Why would anyone in Bristol or ECW want to produce such a beast, knowing that the RE was on its way, and why would Eastern Counties want it?
Pete Davies
19/03/16 – 17:38
Stockport had dual doorway Leopards and Manchester dual doorway Tiger Cubs, Panther Cubs and Panthers and had double decker OMO working not been made legal, would have had many more Panthers.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/03/16 – 05:13
What a different MW. Was this an Eastern Counties one off or were did other Tilling Companies have them? Strange to see the glazed roof coves, on both sides too. Also I would have expected the exit door to be in the next bay forward of where it is.
Ian Wild
17/03/16 – 05:14
Well, to answer your question about who would put a centre door on an MW, Wilts & Dorset did the same to a converted coach. I think it ran for a few years in that form, but I cannot find any photos on the web at the moment.
Nigel Frampton
17/03/16 – 07:54
Thanks for that, Nigel. Converting a down-graded coach is one thing, and I think I have a ‘bought’ slide of it somewhere – I’ll see if I can dig it out for others to see if they wish – but one straight off the factory line?
Pete Davies
17/03/16 – 09:16
This was an attempt, it seems, at a standee bus but where for, I know not. I thought there were some similar Leeds efforts on this site with steep steps and standee windows, but can’t spot them- did they try one or two types?
Joe
17/03/16 – 09:17
The centre door as placed would be the only option – the bay further forward had the engine oil sump come well over to the nearside. The glazed roof coves look to be the ‘standard’ parts from coach MWs and presumably were added because of the standee nature of the bus (for the same reason as Reading’s REs had very tall side windows).
Peter Delaney
17/03/16 – 10:46
Joe, Leeds had saloons with centre entrance bodies all bodied by Roe and all featuring the standee windows. They were repeated on the AEC Swifts with Roe bodywork delivered in 1967. The original standee saloons were on Guy, AEC and Leyland chassis with a later pair of Reliances entering service in the late fifties.
Chris Hough
17/03/16 – 15:22
There is a photo of this vehicle when new in MG Doggett & AA Townsin’s book ‘ECW 1965-1987’. It was one of two trial dual-door standee MW5Gs (LM640/641) delivered to ECOC in November 1966. Each was capable of carrying 60 passengers – 30 seated and 30 standing – but were of differing internal layout. The accompanying caption states “the area for standing passengers was concentrated at the rear of LM640(KAH 640D), there being single seats on each side of the gangway towards the rear to provide a standing area behind the exit doorway”. An interior shot of LM640 shows this feature, together with normal double seats at each side ahead of the exit door. Relating to the second standee MW LM641(KAH 641D), the authors state that “a row of single seats were provided along the offside of the vehicle to give room for a standing area along its length”. A picture of the interior shows this together with a longitudinal seat over the front offside wheelarch, plus normal double seats along the nearside from front to rear. Regarding Geoff’s comment about the height of the steps at the central exit, dual doorway REs also had steps there as the RESL/RELL chassis sloped up gradually towards the rear in order to clear the engine. The exit steps were probably shallower on the RE, but being just ahead of the rear axle I would not have thought by very much though. A fascinating pair of vehicles indeed, and thank you very much for posting the photo of LM641 Geoff. Wonderful.
Brendan Smith
18/03/16 – 09:03
In my response to Nigel Frampton’s comment, I said I thought I had and would try to dig out a slide of the Wilts & Dorset converted coach. It’s attached, as is a view of one of Lancaster’s trio of twin-door Leopards. BOTH are bought, and I’ve no idea who took the originals. The Wilts came via Paul Caudell and the Leopard came via Arnold Richardson’s Photobus collection.
What makes Wilts & Dorset RMR 992 look even more odd is the old coach-type forward door and its kink in the pillar. So far as I can recall, 101 to 103 UTF were the only twin door vehicles Lancaster bought (prior to the merger with Morecambe & Heysham) and I think it must have been something of a failed experiment – the centre door was hardly ever activated on the services I used. Wilts & Dorset RMR 992 is seen at what looks to be Salisbury Bus Station and Lancaster 102 UTF is inside Kingsway depot.
Pete Davies
18/03/16 – 15:52
Never thought I would find myself contributing to a post on an Eastern Counties MW but KAH 641D was the only one of its type that I have ever driven. This came about after ECOC took over Burwell & District Motor Services on 10th June 1979. The new regime, under a youthful Ben Colson went to great lengths to cover B&D commitments as required by the Traffic Commissioners at the time. B&D operated a contract/service (not 100% sure which) at the time to carry pupils from Burwell to Soham Village College which parents had to pay for as the free option was for Burwell pupils to go to Newmarket Upper School, for which B&D provided 3 or 4 buses daily. This bus was drafted in briefly to cover odd runs and my diary records that on Friday 15th. June 1979 I was on a rest day but came in to cover the 08:15 Burwell-Soham service 116 with LM641. This journey was made a short working of the established (and much missed) service 116 from Newmarket to ELy, via Burwell. Fortunately I had my camera with me and stopped in a layby on the way back to Burwell to take a photo as I have always tried to keep a record of every vehicle that I have driven. I was able to wind on the correct route number but with no blind fitted it was not even possible to display the favourite ECOC destination of SERVICE! My PM duty was 16:00 Newmarket school-Burwell with the same bus, no doubt I was paid more for those 2 short journeys as a rest day working than I would have earned from driving back and forth all day from Burwell to Cambridge with B&D. The best thing in my memory of ECOC was the wages, as I only lasted 3 months before they gave me till the end of the week to join the union, so I gave them till the end of the week to find another driver!
Jim Neale
19/03/16 – 06:48
Another batch of two-door underfloor engined single deckers was London Transport’s RW 1-3 the experimental AEC Reliance/Willowbrook delivered in 1960 and sold to Chesterfield in 1963. The exit door on these was one bay further forward and they also glazed cove panels five on the O/S but only three on the N/S none being fitted over the centre door.
Diesel Dave
19/03/16 – 09:27
Rochdale had two batches of AEC Reliances with dual door bodies. Weymann bodied 16-20 and East Lancs bodied 21-23. The East Lancs version had the ‘centre’ door further forward, immediately behind the front wheel while the Weymanns had it just in front of the rear wheel. These buses were all introduced as opo vehicles onto routes previously worked by double deckers which at that time in the early sixties obviously had conductors. The dual door arrangement was intended to speed up boarding and alighting times to counter the delay of the driver having to collect fares.
Philip Halstead
19/03/16 – 17:41
Stockport had dual doorway Leopards and Manchester dual doorway Tiger Cubs, Panther Cubs and Panthers and had double decker OMO working not been made legal, would have had many more Panthers.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/03/16 – 06:42
Looking through the comments made me think and check out my memory and I found yet more two door underfloor single deckers in the form of Lincoln City Transport No’s 81-87 Reg No’s MFE 993-999 Tiger Cubs with Roe B41D bodies with the exit door just in front of the rear wheels new in late 1958. Also Portsmouth Corporation had a batch of Tiger Cubs No’s 16-25 Reg No’s TTP 990-999. with Weymann B34D bodies with the exit door in a similar position new in May 1960.
Diesel Dave
20/03/16 – 08:31
This is becoming a very interesting discussion. My point was that, until the advent of the AEC Swift, Leyland Panther and Bristol RE was that twin-door single deckers were something of a rarity and, yes, even then, many fleets stayed with the single door. All I can think of was that it may well have been an experiment to see if loading/unloading times improved, and by how much, in the early days of one-man operation. My experience is that most operators went back to single door vehicles.
Pete Davies
20/03/16 – 10:07
Although not common-place in the early 50s, more underfloor engined single deckers were built as dual door saloons by Bristol/ECW than the ones mentioned so far. Over a decade before the MW, ECW bodied one of the prototype Bristol LS (NHU 2) with dual doors – in that case with the additional doorway behind the rear axle. Hants and Dorset’s bus bodied LS were all delivered in that format, though converted to front door only in the late 1950s, and United Counties also had batches in similar style, some as DP rather than bus versions, whilst Wilts and Dorset had several batches of dual doorway DP LSs. I think Eastern National may also had an example to that layout. The structure of an LS frame was such as to dictate the position of the rear doorway.
Peter Delaney
23/03/16 – 05:43
Here we see RMR 992 again now with “Hants & Dorset”. It seems to have had a rather hard time of it since it was last washed.
David Grimmett
23/03/16 – 17:17
Such damage in service is so typical of the drop in standards once NBC took over. I say this because the vehicle is clearly not in a depot. Do we know where this photo was taken, David? And I notice that H&D has adopted the useful ECOC destination of SERVICE!
Chris Hebbron
24/03/16 – 05:57
Chris, the later photo of RMR992 looks to be in Salisbury Bus Station. W&D did also make use of “Service” in the destination displays, although not as much as some.
Nigel Frampton
24/03/16 – 05:57
Yes, RMR 992 could still have looked a handsome bus, even with its rebuild to bus use. The mid-door for exit is reasonably done, and the revised indicators are very neat. Even the metal trim below the windows has been retained. However, we sadly miss the Tilling red of Wilts & Dorset or Tilling green of Hants & Dorset, either of which would make this a bus to be proud of. Sadly, this didn’t happen here, with the side dent, and it’s need of a wash. The use of “service” as a destination is also regrettable. Hopefully passengers had a good ride, as it retains the upper windows to lighten the interior.
Michael Hampton
24/03/16 – 05:57
RMR 992 is on the stand, reversed in, in Salisbury bus station. The bus station layout was a reversed L with access from the offside of the bus. It was in the seventies that buses started driving on to this stand and reversing off,rather than reversing on.
Steve Barnett
24/03/16 – 16:56
According to BBF No 1 Portsmouth Corporation had a batch of 10 dual Door PSUC1/1 Tiger cubs Nos 16 – 25 in 1950 and 31 Leopard L1s Nos 131 – 161 in 1961/62/66.
Barrie Lee
25/03/16 – 16:09
Of course the London Reliances were based on the Grimsby Cleethorpes design of which there were 24 (the last ones to the later BET design) and both Chesterfield and Aberdare were also customers. I wonder if it was Willowbrook’s advertisements that led to LT purchasing their three: www.flickr.com/photos/One www.flickr.com/photos/Two
Stephen Allcroft
26/03/16 – 05:14
Barrie Lee has correctly identified the Tiger Cubs of Portsmouth (Nos 16-25, delivered 1959 and into service 1960), but the L1 Leopards were Nos 131-142 (1961) and 143-149 (1963). They were all dual entrance/exit, the Tiger Cubs being B34D+26 (soon altered to B32D+26 for a luggage rack), and the Leopards were all B42D+16. If I recall correctly, the main “standee” space was centrally placed opposite the exit doors. The saloons numbered 150-161 were Panther Cubs new in 1967. Portsmouth had a possibly unique arrangement for the exit doors. Some time ago, I contributed an article about it on this site, “One Small Step for a Portsmouth Passenger”. This arrangement applied to these and all succeeding saloons, plus later Atlanteans until the arrival of the Leyland National.
Michael Hampton
26/03/16 – 05:14
Halifax JOC took delivery of a solitary L2 Leopard with Weymann two-door body in 1961 (231, OCP 231). It was not viewed with favour by the drivers’ union membership and I believe the centre door remained closed in service. It lived a shadowy existence in this form, being mostly banished to working the local Field Lane and Oaklands services based in Brighouse. Another sixteen similar Leopards based on the more appropriate L1 chassis and with single door layout were due in 1962, and 231 was soon sent back to Weymann to be rebuilt to match them.
John Stringer
27/03/16 – 07:30
Regarding RMR 992: did this just retain an unpowered front coach door after conversion to dual-door configuration? – both photographs suggest the door is locked open.
Philip Rushworth
27/03/16 – 09:56
I remember traveling on RMR when it found itself at Romsey outstation and I’m sure the door front door was electrically run as it was one-man operated (as we used to know it!).
Steve Barnett
28/03/16 – 11:12
I am reasonably sure that, in David Grimmett’s photo of RMR 992 (23/03/16 at 05:43), the vehicle is, in fact, still in Tilling Red. It is the same shade as the adjacent LH, which is clearly still in Tilling livery, the cream window surrounds being the determining factor. Accepting that colour reproduction can vary on different computer systems, monitors, etc, but this colour looks quite different to the rather orangey appearance of NBC red in the first couple of years. H&D applied NBC style fleetnames to a lot of vehicles that were still in Tilling liveries, and this roughly followed the instructions of the NBC corporate image policy. However, that required the cream relief to be repainted white, even if the complete vehicle was not painted, and that white fleetnames should be applied. In practice, H&D seem only to have used a few white fleetnames in this way, and most of the temporary ones were cream, which better matched the original livery, and the cream relief was also left untouched. Presumably, since RMR 992 didn’t have any cream relief, it was deemed appropriate to use a white fleetname. H&D and W&D purchased several single deckers with dual doors from the 1950s to the early 1970s, but there seems to have been a distinct absence of logic. The LSs all seem to have been rebuilt to single door configuration quite early in their lives, but then, from the mid 1960s, virtually all new single deck buses had two doors – the Bedfords, the RELL buses, and even the first deliveries of LHs. The RELL DPs had only one door, but soon tended to be used interchangeably with their dual door bus-seated sisters, particularly when the earlier DPs were replaced on longer distance services by newer deliveries. The passengers were no doubt simply confused, and probably found the five extra seats of the DPs more useful than the extra door. When Leyland Nationals took over from REs as standard single deck fare, the dual door policy was abandoned altogether.
Nigel Frampton
28/03/16 – 13:33
The motto of 360 Squadron, Royal Air Force, seems to apply in Nigel’s explanation of the H&D/W&D liveries under NBC – CONFUNDEMUS (We shall throw into confusion).
Pete Davies
08/04/16 – 06:09
Peter D mentions older two door ECW LS bodies. They were built in the era before OPO (if that is the PC phrase). I suspect that the management attitude was that the conductor would be at the rear to look after that door, despite being power operated. I am sure most conductors would gravitate to the front to chat to the driver. The ‘Do not speak to the driver…’ notices were a later addition required for the certification of a vehicle to operate OPO. With regard to ECOC LM641, I was interested to see that two vehicles had different internal layouts. I was area engineer in the east then and both vehicles probably ‘went west’. I also surmise that the vehicles were part of GM Tom Skinner’s innovations see Eastern Counties – selected memories and that they may have been initiated before the delivery of REs was anticipated. The final MW deliveries were getting so late that many Tilling companies had their orders truncated and centrally(?) replaced by RESLs (the nearest replacement, rather than RELLs). I don’t think the 46 seater RESL caused Union problems at ECOC, being one over the more normal 45 seat maximum, but going beyond that certainly needed negotiation in all companies! In Jim Neale’s photo of LM641 from 1979, it is interesting to see that the last nearside quarter light has been reglazed with black rubber – the cream version didn’t stay in production for very long. I would have expected the front destination to be so treated, for in the eastern area the MW destination glass was just the right height to hit a tardy pheasant that had been taken by surprise and several needed replacement on outstation based vehicles!
Geoff Pullin
13/05/16 – 06:04
The “Omnibus Magazine” of June 1967 states that LM640 and LM641 were allocated to Bury St. Edmunds and Peterborough on March 1st 1967 but had returned to store at Norwich within two weeks. Clearly they weren’t very popular!
Eastern Counties Omnibus Co Ltd 1967 Bristol RESL 6HLX ECW B46F
There are several non-ECW bodied RE buses featured on this site but few if any of the first Tilling Group RESL standard bus. This is RS660 (KVF 660E), the last of a batch of 14, which I believe was supplied to meet an outstanding order for MWs. The fact that they had 46 seats, compared to the maximum of 45 to date, didn’t prevent them being accepted immediately for one man operation, several based at the many outstations for which the company was famous. Alongside are FLF359 (ONG 359F) and SB664 (NAH 664F). A large number of recent deliveries, which the advert fixers had yet to purloin, were assembled in the forecourt of Thorpe Station, Norwich on Sunday, May 12, 1968 to meet an excursion train hauled by the Flying Scotsman. There were several tour options for passengers around the city and county before the return journey.
This period saw Eastern Counties explode from its long 4 and 5 cylinder era into that of the 6LX and 6HLX! The FLF found its way to Western SMT a couple of years later in the great FLF for VRT swop between National Bus Company and the Scottish Bus Group. The Bedford with ECW bus body was one of a batch of four, two with Bedford engines and this and SB663 (already shown on the same day in a Bedford VAM string in OBP) had Leyland engines.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
23/12/19 – 06:45
I believe that Eastern Counties’ next batch of RE buses were RELLs, and these were supplied with 6HLW engines, which were quickly swapped with the 6HLX engines from the RESLs.
Nigel Frampton
23/12/19 – 06:47
We had two Bristol RS’s at Cambridge. One of them was almost permanently on route 428 Cambridge station to Bedford. It was a long duty….two journeys….and was the only week on the rota that had two rest days for that reason. I worked it for a week when the regular driver was on holiday and enjoyed it immensely. The RS’s were super to drive…fast and powerful, and although they were rear engined, they had a very precise manual gear change, and a long gear lever. I also recall that they had a high pitched whine at speed from the transmission. The other RS was usually on the 113 Cambridge to Haverhill and Kedington services, so they could inter change for maintenance and repairs. The RS’s were a vast improvement on the ordinary Bristol MW’s.
Norman Long
24/12/19 – 07:37
Nigel, I don’t think this is true. The first RELLs were in service in June 1968 (the month after the above photo) and I’m sure they had 6HLX engines as well. Although the company was adept at physically changing types of engine after years of downsizing double decks to 5 cylinders and much later installing a Gardner into a Leyland National, the change to 6HLX from 5HLW for buses was the policy introduced by the new General Manager who had arrived from Eastern National. In the 1960s, it was company policy to ‘fairly’ share new vehicles across the whole vast area, so, unlike today, sadly the advantages of better vehicles and performance didn’t reflect into timetables!
Geoff Pullin
24/12/19 – 10:05
The FLF would have had a 6LX engine also, although retaining a manual gearbox. All EC’s previous batches of FLFs having 6LWs.The former BCV test vehicle which they acquired in 1967 may have had a Bristol BVW initially.
Brian Crowther
25/12/19 – 05:52
Geoff, I must admit that I cannot remember exactly where I read about the engine swap – I think that it was in “Buses” magazine. However, the page on Rob Sly’s website for KVF 658E (the preserved survivor from this batch of RESLs) says that the engine was swapped during 1969. //bcv.robsly.com/kvf658e.html Other online sources say that it now has a 6HLX, so presumably it was changed again (or never changed at all!)
Nigel Frampton
25/12/19 – 05:53
Think the RESL at Carlton Colville has a 6HLW.
Roger Burdett
26/12/19 – 06:15
Nigel is correct, the 14 RESL’s 647 to 660 were delivered with 6HLX engines which were later replaced with 6HLW’s from RELL’s but without checking back I can’t confirm which RELL’s were delivered with 6HLW’s. I thought they may have been replaced with a later batch but as the first 14 RELL’s RL665 to 678 all had PPW registrations it’s possible that they were the donors.
Mark Ellis
28/12/19 – 06:18
Is the Bedford missing it’s front grille? It seems we are looking directly at the radiator without anything covering it.
Chris Barker
28/12/19 – 09:20
Looking at various photos of the four Bedfords in the batch SB661-664 (NAH 661-664F), the grille format appears the same on them all even after sale to other operators. As Chris B says it does look very much like the grille is missing. Looking at photographs of the examples operated by West Yorkshire (4) and Western National (12), also new in 1967, all those seem to have more obvious grilles.
David Slater
28/12/19 – 15:10
This photo, taken on the same occasion, shows SB663 is fitted with a manually adjusted radiator blind in the traditional Bristol on-radiator fashion.
I don’t remember if this was ECW standard or an ECOC special.
In the close-up shot it would appear that the grille on the VAM has been set back from the front panel to allow for the fitting of a radiator blind. Whether this was fitted “in build” by ECW at Lowestoft, or done by Eastern Counties themselves I’ll leave it to the ECOC experts.
Brendan Smith
18/02/20 – 07:30
The RELLs with 6HLW units were RL703-7 and 710-8 from the 1969 order, the engines being exchanged at ECOC before the chassis headed to ECW for bodying. KVF 658E regained a 6HLX after entering preservation. To tidy up, test rig FLF LAH 448E was ECOC’s only Bristol-engined example and was converted to 6LW in 1971. I’ve long wondered why the six FLs delivered in 1962/63 had BVWs while the double-deck fleet was entirely Gardner by then. Apart from one which was withdrawn early in 1976, the others again all received 6LWs.
