Newcastle Corporation 1937 Guy BTX Northern Coachbuilders H33/27D
Once again, these photos are from the Newcastle City Libraries Archives. They are pre delivery publicity shots of FVK 109, a 1937 Guy BTX, and were taken at the Northern Coachbuilders works which was located on Claremont Road Newcastle, my records suggest that the vehicle may have been a one off. Between 1936 & 38, Newcastle Corporation took delivery of 70 Trolleybuses, this took the fleet numbers from 40 to 109. They were an assorted mixture, 40 to 43 were two axle Karrier E4 with H56R MCCW bodies, the remainder were all three axle types with H33/27D bodies, 17 AEC 664T – 24 Guy BTX and 24 Karrier E6A. 44 to 77 and 85 to 108 were MCCW, 78 to 84 were Roe, that brings us back to 109. However, the next vehicle I have records for is 112, a 1938 Daimler with H33/27D MCCW body, it carried a Coventry registration, DHP 112, and was the only Daimler in Newcastle’s not inconsiderable fleet, which would suggest that it was originally a demonstrator. If they ever existed, I have failed to find any records for fleet numbers 110 and 111, so perhaps 109 was actually one of three. Changing the tack slightly, I don’t understand the thinking behind this style of body, two axle trolleybuses had a capacity of 56, but despite the extra length these were only 60, with most of the extra space taken up by a second set of stairs, and a door at the front, it seems an awful lot of expense for the sake of an extra four seats, post war vehicles had what I suppose would be called a normal configuration with an open platform and one set of stairs, which gave a capacity of 70.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
05/08/14 – 06:57
Handsome and fascinating vehicle. Unusual that the staircase evidently eats up one seat downstairs, Roe fashion, yet—to go by the position of the handrail seen through the back window—also extends some way across the back of the platform in conventional staircase fashion, suggesting that the platform is shorter from front to back—something also suggested by the smallish rearmost side windows upstairs. The front upstairs bay is also unusually long, yet there’s nothing unbalanced about the whole design, at least to my eye. If only one had survived! Seeing one after another of Ronnie’s posts fills me with envy: what a wonderful variety of characterful vehicles, some run by quite small authorities, bearing bold liveries and stylish lettering, all exuding a real sense of local pride.
Ian T
05/08/14 – 07:06
Newcastle’s pre-war trolleybus fleet was entirely six-wheeled vehicles, ALL with the same basic body design, incorporating two staircases, a front exit with doors and sixty seats. This arrangement was adopted because front exits on trams had been the norm for many years in Newcastle and the trolleybus routes were initially all for tram replacement. The layout was similar to that adopted by Bournemouth Corporation for its trolleys. It may just be coincidence but Newcastle’s livery was also very close to that operator’s, albeit with a much darker shade of yellow as per the cadmium used on the trams. Bournemouth: //farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/ Newcastle: Here’s a digitally enhanced version of Ronnie’s pic of 109: //farm9.staticflickr.com/8464/ Newcastle’s initial 1935 trolleybus fleet was numbered 10-40, extending by 1940 as the network developed to no. 124. As Ronnie rightly states the numbers 110 and 111 were never used, for reasons unknown. Noel Hanson in his excellent history of Newcastle’s trolleybuses offers two theories. One is that 112, a Daimler demonstrator, was coincidentally registered in Coventry as DHP 112 and so NCT thought it prudent to skip from 109 to 112 to keep registration and panel numbers aligned. OR, the reason was an ‘accounting’ allocation of 110 and 111 by Newcastle to other demonstrators that had been borrowed in 1937/38… Whether they actually asked Daimler for a ‘112′ registration on their demonstrator may never be known! Incidentally 109 saw the light of day as a chassis-only exhibit at the 1937 motor show, then being purchased by Newcastle who had it bodied during 1938 to its ‘standard’ trolleybus design by local firm Northern Coach Builders. Although about this time NCB were bodying Daimler COG5 double-deckers for the Corporation, 109 remained the only pre-war trolleybus bodied by NCB – quite different from the post-war trolleybus fleet in which NCB bodied 80 out of 186 vehicles. In the pre-war fleet of 113 pretty well externally identical vehicles, no fewer than four chassis makes (27 AEC 664T, 50 Karrier E6/E6A, 35 Guy BTX and 1 Daimler CTM6) and five bodywork manufacturers (5 English Electric, 5 Brush, 89 MCCW, 13 C H Roe and 1 NCB) were represented. Some kind of record? Looks like Metro-Cammell were very much in favour, again reflecting purchases of motor buses at this time.
Harper Bros 1943 Guy Arab I Park Royal H56R rebodied Northern Coachbuilders 1954
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Harper Brothers of Heath Hayes” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
19/05/12 – 16:40
I would like to know exactly where in Heath Hayes the Harper Brothers garage was if anyone knows it would be much appreciated.
Rod
20/05/12 – 07:36
Don’t know about the depot, but the bus was new to Sheffield in 1943, gone by 1949. It was a solo vehicle.
Les Dickinson
20/05/12 – 07:37
I remember Harpers Bros Buses and Coaches very well in my childhood days as they used to go past my old house in Erdington Road, Aldridge and after I left Aldridge with my parents and sister on Saturday 10th June 1961 to move to Lichfield. As me and my parents and sister used to use them to visit our Aunty and Uncle who used to live in Daniels Lane, off Erdington Road, Aldridge
Andrew Holder
20/05/12 – 09:09
Looking at the Gallery, the poor buses look rather battered and neglected so due for the scrapyard yet are not that old so maybe Harpers were not exactly good on maintenance. It’s a shame that these quite characterful vehicles did not have a better life let alone survive.
Richard Leaman
22/05/12 – 14:46
Hi Rod the garage lay between the Cannock Rd and the Hednesford Rd Heath Hayes approx 100yards from the 5 ways island, other than the 1st photo that was taken inside the garage the other photos were taken on ground opposite the rear of the garage on the Cannock Rd prior to Newlands Lane. I think part of the premises are now a tyre depot. They also had a garage on the Stafford Rd Cannock that housed I think 2 Vehicles, a workshop at High Green Cannock where Fleet 14 in Photo at rear of Heath Hayes Garage was re bodied and a Garage that housed a couple of coaches at Aldridge opposite Portland Rd (town end). Hi Richard you are right in thinking some of the buses looked neglected in the photo that’s because they were indeed scrap except for Fleet 31 in the middle of the three half cabs, they were old and had come to the end of there safe working serviceable life. The vehicles that were in service were in fact very well maintained.
Phil Burton
26/05/12 – 20:38
Many thanks Phil. I had a hunch it was down that road somewhere. My partner says that sounds about right think there are flats there now.
Rod
12/06/12 – 07:30
Heath Hayes has a Walsall post code. Could the Guy’s odd destination refer to West Bromwich Albion football ground, “The Hawthorns”?
Pete Davies
12/06/12 – 11:42
Hi Pete. You are indeed right, the destination did in fact mean West Bromwich Albion. Harpers ran football excursion buses to all the local teams on Saturdays and any night matches. The destinations would be Albion, Villa, Wolves etc. If the Team wasn’t on the destination blind, Football would be put up and a painted or chalked destination board would be displayed in the drivers window or in a purpose made destination board holder.
Phil Burton
13/06/12 – 09:44
Did this bus have a replacement utility body whilst in Sheffield service? Quoted as rebodied by NCB, and obviously not a Park Royal, this would seem to be quite an unusual, and interesting occurrence. If so, where did the NCB utility body come from?
John Whitaker
21/09/12 – 06:58
I have never lived in the West Midlands, so my first-hand experience of Harpers is restricted to a visit to the depot and a ride on a what was then a relatively new Daimler Fleetline on their service from Cannock (via a rather roundabout route) into Birmingham. From these experiences, and from general comments in the enthusiast press, I would say that Harpers were considered one of the leading operators of the day – much better thought of than not only other independents, but many NBC subsidiaries, PTEs, and larger municipalities. The fact that a proportion of the fleet was secondhand did nothing to detract from the fleet’s overall presentation, they always bought quality vehicles and looked after them.
David Call
22/09/12 – 07:05
I think David Call is absolutely right. I visited the depot once and it seemed to me at the time like a very well run company both operationally and maintenance wise. I remember that on the day I went, one of the Royal Tigers with Harpers own bodywork was receiving attention in the depot. I also went on a ‘Farewell to Harpers’ tour when it was known that they were selling out to Midland Red. On that occasion I had the interesting experience of travelling on 888 DUK, the Guy Arab V with the odd looking Strachans body. I believe that by then it had a Leyland 0600 engine. It was actually a very sad loss when they closed, a substantial operator which had been well respected. I would admit that their unusual livery perhaps didn’t suit every vehicle, but it was certainly distinctive!
Chris Barker
23/09/12 – 06:32
Contemplate, chaps. It seems that Harper’s and Ledgard’s were soul mates. Are there any other mixed operators like this that the rest of you out there would like to nominate? Pennine? Who else?
David Oldfield
24/09/12 – 07:22
Indeed there are David, I’ve always thought the obvious pair were South Yorkshire and South Notts. So many similarities, it’s almost uncanny. To name a few; both had similar size fleets, both operated busy inter-urban services, both had a blue livery, both were mainly stage service operators but with a modest coaching side too, all of their double deckers were lowbridge or low height, all vehicles were bought in two’s or three’s, both bought all-Leyland PD2’s, then turned to other bodybuilders for PD2’s and PD3’s, both had Atlantean PDR1/3’s with Northern Counties bodies, both later turned to the Fleetline with Leyland engine, again with NCME bodies, both ended with the Olympian. I’m sure there were other similarities but you get my drift!
Chris Barker
15/11/12 – 11:15
I heard a guy was writing a book about Harper Bros. Anyone know if it has been completed?
Rod
15/11/12 – 15:02
The book is ‘Harpers Bus Memories in Colour’, published by Irwell Press, which was due to be available in October 2012 price £12.95. It is listed in the latest MDS Books catalogue, reference IR956.
John Stringer
15/11/12 – 15:53
Paul Roberts book ‘Harpers Bus Memories in Colour’ is still awaited.
Philip Lamb
23/11/12 – 08:19
The book is now on the shelf for purchase.
Phil Burton
06/12/12 – 06:55
There is also another long awaited book being written, this is a far more in depth publication. This one will trace the actual history from day one. I would imagine it is not far away now. I will try and get in touch with the author.
Mick Bullock
21/02/13 – 17:38
The Northern Coachworks Body put on Guy Arab I HWA 714 Fleet No 3 in 1954 was a Lowbridge L27/26R. It finished service December 1963.
Phil Burton
18/10/13 – 07:38
In addition to local football trips, Harpers ran to important away matches too – I remember going to watch Wolves in a cup match at Leeds with my grandmother some time in the 70s. Used to catch Harpers buses between Shire Oak and Brownhills, then Walsall Corporation on to Pipe Hill where footballing grandmother lived (non-footballing one at Shire Oak made a convenient stop off on Sunday when the less frequent services left me to wait in the rain ….)
ex ENOC conductor
22/03/14 – 17:15
In the fifties I grew up as neighbour to Felix Harper and to his neighbour sister Mary Harper in the large houses (286 to 280 Cannock rd) that they had built in the thirties. There was a large field next to our houses which gave access to another large field which lay behind our three houses. This was the hidden junkyard for all the old Harpers buses where a handful of those of us kids ‘in the know’ spent many a happy, forbidden and dangerous hour playing and trespassing.
Sheila James Baggaley
20/09/14 – 06:00
Harpers had a small garage at Aldridge as well along from the Avion cinema. My Dad Jack Preston was the Coop chemist in the same road. Anchor Road. From 1957 until 1965 used to go to school in Lichfield every day on a Harpers bus. In 1958 I had an accident coming home when I fell off one of the single deckers with a sliding door at the front and the back wheel of the bus went over the bottom of my leg. Still limping today. Good old Gloria deluxe.
Bryan Preston
08/10/15 – 14:54
It’s sometime since I made a comment on this post has I didn’t have much more to add, however, I don’t remember inspectors being on Harper’s buses, have I got this right?
Jimmie
06/01/16 – 05:37
No Jimmie, Harold Haytree was the inspector, and also at one stage Bob Finch who was ex police joined the company.
Phil Burton
12/01/16 – 14:07
In my student days, back in 1966, I worked with the company as a conductor for about eight weeks in July / August. Harold Haytree was the Inspector – but his duties didn’t involve any actual inspecting! He was the firm’s ‘presence’ at Cannock Bus Station, and I think he may have had a hand in compiling duty rotas. The fleet comprised mainly ex London Transport type RT double deckers. I recall the purchase and arrival of a replacement for a crash-damaged vehicle – and the scramble for a trophy in the form of the London Transport radiator badge (replaced by a standard AEC radiator badge). My other memory was the uniform – emerald green double-breasted dust jackets with cream facings. Very distinctive! Only, they only had one in stock when I joined: it was much MUCH too big! Having conducted for Liverpool Corporation Passenger Transport the previous summer, I was used to having my own ticket machine (an ‘Ultimate’). At HB, we took any available ‘Setright’ from a hook in the crew room!
Les
13/01/16 – 06:08
Here are a lot of photos of Harper’s vehicles, an amazing assortment which, had they survived, would have made a wonderful museum collection. They had a fair selection of London Transport RT/RTL’s, too. SEE: //www.heathhayeshistory.co.uk/harpers_buses_1/
Chris Hebbron
14/01/16 – 06:02
Thanks for that link to the Harper fleet, Chris- a fascinating array, even though some of the captions are a bit doubtful (e.g. Cravens RT body built in Anglesey). I am also curious about the single deck Guy Arab JVK 654 with its ” back to front gearbox”. Did it have one forward gear and four reverse?
Roger Cox
14/01/16 – 06:39
I think that what would be meant by a ‘back to front’ gearbox would be that one or more gears were in a different position to what might be expected. This wasn’t at all unusual with commercial vehicles – Bedford coaches, for instance, up to and including the VAL14 (but not VAL70) had a so-called ‘Chinese’ gearbox.
David Call
14/01/16 – 10:03
A very common feature of Guy Arab gearboxes was that first and second gears were against the driver’s knee, while third and fourth were nearest to the engine. We had just one such at Ledgard’s Otley depot in the form of my beloved JUA 763. It had been new in 1943 with a dreadful Pickering utility body, but in 1950 was rebodied in the finest tradition by Charles H Roe its twin JUA 762 was at Armley depot from new until the end and was treated likewise at the same time. New recruits, fresh from perhaps a lorry driving job, were often “caught out” by the gear positions and either their errors were audibly heard for miles around or they wondered why the bus would not pull away in top gear which they thought was second !!
Chris Youhill
14/01/16 – 16:23
Most Atkinson lorries and some ERFs had the “Chinese” gearbox. My Tilling Stevens Coach has a 6 speed Chinese box on and I leave a diagram on the dash to remind me
Roger Burdett
14/01/16 – 16:25
It’s the same effect as driving a LHD car- not only do you shunt your front seat passenger into the passing traffic, thinking you are next to open space, but 1 is by your right knee and you then move away for 3 & 4 & even 5 & 6. It don’t feel right! Off (this) topic, Chris- do you know how/why Wallace Arnold had a depot in Royston?
Joe
14/01/16 – 17:32
I’m fairly sure that London Transport’s later deliveries of utility Guy Arabs had a conventional gearbox ‘gate’ and had to cut a couple of inches off the gear levers of one type (probably the non-standard ones) to enable their drivers to distinguish between the two types.
Chris Hebbron
15/01/16 – 06:23
Certainly most, if not all, the “reversed” gearboxes had a maroon knob as a means of distinction – admittedly of little use in the dark !!
Chris Youhill
15/01/16 – 06:24
Yes, I did follow what the caption to the picture was getting at, but my tongue in cheek comment about the gearbox of Guy Arab JVK 654 arose from the fact that this vehicle was an Arab III. The wartime Arab I and earlier batches of Arab II were fitted with the old sliding mesh gearbox with ‘right to left’ upward gear selector positions introduced with the pre war Arab of 1934. Later production Arab IIs had a new design of constant mesh four speed gearbox with the conventional ‘left to right’ gear lever movement. This constant mesh box was the standard fitment to the Arab III – a few had Guy’s own preselector gearbox – so why would JVK 654 have an old crash gearbox installed in place of its original constant mesh unit? Is the caption correct? Perhaps confusion is arising with the Arab I double deckers KRE 849/850, about which no such comment is made. Also, why remark upon this feature in the Guy, but fail to comment similarly about the several Dennis Lancets in the Harper fleet. The Lancet had the Dennis ‘O’ Type gearbox, a four speed sliding mesh unit with a preselected overdrive fifth ratio, and, again, the lever positions were upward from right to left. When in fifth position, the gear stick was well away from the steering column.
Roger Cox
15/01/16 – 14:38
I imagine some contributors will be able to date some of the photographs shown in the ‘Heath Hayes Gallery’ quite accurately, given the vehicles featured. The rear shot of two vehicles in the depot was clearly taken in Midland Red days, since the vehicle on the right is Midland Red 2181 (XUX 417K), the Ford R192/Plaxton B47F acquired by BMMO with the business of Hoggins, Wrockwardine Wood, in 1/74. It was apparently allocated to Heath Hayes depot from 9/74 to 7/75. The shot was presumably taken towards the beginning of that period, since the vehicle on the left, ex-Harper’s 60 (1294 RE),Guy Arab LUF/Burlingham, was ostensibly withdrawn in 10/74. In its brief stay with Midland Red, it would have been fleet number 2260. Did the ex-Harper vehicles not carry MR fleetnumbers, initially? //www.heathhayeshistory.co.uk/Harpers_9_3.
David Call
15/01/16 – 15:46
The first bus I helped preserve was Burton Corporation 18 a Guy Arab 111 rebodied by Massey. It too had a Chinese box so again may have been a refit from another wartime Arab.
Geoff S
16/01/16 – 06:02
Joe, when John Wilson was GM of NT(SE) he was directed by NBC to accept delivery of some LHD Willowbrook Express bodied AEC Reliances for continental services: there were more accidents with these vehicles on the continent (and, perhaps not surprisingly in the UK [although I think they were only licensed for use between London and Dover]) than with RHD coaches – apparently if one is used to driving an RHD vehicle it’s easier to drive one on the continent that it is an LHD vehicle, presumably because the spatial arrangement of the controls remains the same.
Philip Rushworth
16/01/16 – 11:36
Joe, I forgot to answer your question! Wallace Arnold’s Royston depot came with the purchase of G E Billham in 1942 – I think Billham was largely involved with colliery contracts. Castleford depot, acquired with M Box (Castleford) Ltd in 1946, was another depot largely confined to contract operations (although I think some tours duties might have been operated from Castleford depot after Gillards Tours, Normanton, was taken over in 1966. In 1969 the allocation at Royston depot was 22 coaches; Castleford 16 coaches, including two licenced to Gillards.
Philip Rushworth
16/01/16 – 15:14
Interesting Philip. My own experience with occasional hire of LHD cars on the continent is that I just cannot estimate the clearance from the right hand kerb from a left hand driving seat, as I can the left hand kerb from a right hand driving seat. Accordingly I always tend to drive much farther out into the road than necessary.
Stephen Ford
17/01/16 – 06:31
Further to John W (13/6/12) and Phil B (21/2/13), HWA 714 was apparently acquired by Harper’s, chassis only, from Duncan of Law, then fitted with its second hand NCB body and placed in service 4/54. The body was reputedly new c.1949 when it was used to rebody DH 9344, a 1932 Burlingham-bodied Leyland TS3 acquired with the business of Reynolds of Cannock in 6/44. However, I have to say that the body doesn’t look 1949 vintage to me, it looks like, as John W commented, a utility body. They presumably made strong Leyland TS3s in 1932. I am inclined to suppose that Duncan of Law was ultimately superseded by Irvine’s of Law, but I’ll stand corrected, of course. Irvine’s are still operational.
David Call
Correction – Irvine’s of Law ceased in 2012. Adam Duncan sold out to prolific bus company purchaser Sam Anderson, who, only a year or two later, sold on the operation to William Irvine.
18/01/16 – 06:05
The comments about the body are most interesting. It has the look of a utility product but there are certain aspects of it which contradict this, the drivers windscreen and the flat front are most utility like but the side windows appear to have radiused bottom corners, the foremost upper deck side windows have rounded corners on the front upper edge which a utility body would not have had. The front upper deck windows have obviously been rebuilt at some point and appear to be pan glazed. The sliding ventilators are not utility style but NCB did produce some bodies with these on unfrozen AEC chassis earlier in the war, around 1942. If the business of Reynolds was acquired in 6/44 and the body was produced some time after that, there would only have been a short period for it to be regarded as utility because I believe NCB were one of the first bodybuilders to produce a standard post war composite design which I understand appeared in 1945. In addition, I don’t think they built wartime bodywork in any great numbers, perhaps this was a relaxed utility built at the very end of the war. I suppose a photograph of it when it was on the TS3 would be too much to ask for!
Chris Barker
19/01/16 – 06:04
Thanks Philip….WA must have needed some consistent year round trade… Could never understand how such a totally Leeds company wandered so far south. Their fleet was always so up to date, smart and seemed of such quality, as they set off again for Edinburgh and the Trossachs. Then came cheap flights and all the rest.
Joe
19/01/16 – 09:14
Joe, As WA grew and grew it became anything BUT a totally Leeds company, and they had a thriving “stand alone” operation in Torquay. In view of the lovely rural roads and lanes of Devon and Cornwall some of their brand new otherwise standard coaches were built specially to the largely outdated 7’6″ width. Then, at the other end of the UK (sorry Ms Sturgeon), Dicksons of Dundee were taken over, bringing some superb coaches with lovely tartan moquette seating, and a thriving customer base. Some vehicles initially operated from Leeds in Dickson’s smart maroon livery – two lovely Reliances MYJ 764/5 are fondly recalled for instance.
Chris Youhill
20/01/16 – 05:49
Apologies for pushing this thread further in the WA direction, but I’m hoping Chris Youhill will be able to answer something that puzzled me for years. I can see how, with a base in Torquay, WA’s Devon subsidiary could service a programme of extended based in the south west – but how were the programmes based in London (ex Homeland Tours), Northamptonshire (ex United Counties), Bristol (ex Hallens), and the ex-Dicksons Scottish-based tours serviced. And for that after the Glasgow-Skye express service that was taken over fro Skyways? Were coaches and drivers sent out from Leeds on rotation, or were some pick-ups “on line of route”?
Philip Rushworth
21/01/16 – 06:44
I’ve just seen the comments above about “Chinese” gearboxes. I’ve read elsewhere that Guy’s right-to-left gearboxes had maroon gear lever knobs, but I believe this is an error caused by the assumption that an unusual gear arrangement warranted an unusual knob. In fact I’m pretty sure that it was the other way round – the maroon knob was introduced in 1945 to distinguish the new constant-mesh gearbox from its Chinese predecessor. I’m sure I’ve seen some quite late examples, and even UFs or LUFs. I think there is also confusion over Bedfords. Bedford’s own 4-speed gearbox was perfectly conventional. The early Turner 5-speed unit on the VAL14 (also optional on SBs at that time) was unusual in that 1st (rarely used) was on the extreme right opposite reverse, 2nd and 3rd were over on the left, and 4th and 5th were to the right but back-to-front. However, this does not justify the “Chinese” epithet, which refers strictly to arrangements where ascending through the gears means going from right to left, like Chinese writing. The only Bedfords with that arrangement were the SB coaches with the Plaxton C-type modification, which created extra passenger space by raising the floor and pushing the driving position forward, requiring extra linkage for the gearchange. Both Bedford and Turner gear arrangements were then reversed right-to-left.
Peter Williamson
21/01/16 – 15:30
Philip – I’m afraid you’ve caught me on the hop there as I was only very briefly involved in tour coach allocation before returning to driving out of my own choice. I’m pretty sure though that Paul Haywood and Malcolm Hirst will be able to answer that aspect more fully. One driving job though that I did do, just after the Dickson’s takeover, was to travel empty to Dundee one Saturday afternoon and the next morning take a load of tour passengers for their first overnight in Bradford – so that will have been something to do with Dickson’s programme no doubt, although I’m sure that it wasn’t a regular manoeuvre. Around the same time I also had to got to Wetherby (in a company car) to relieve another Leeds driver on a southbound continental tour from Dundee to Southend Airport.
Chris Youhill
03/02/16 – 06:44
A few of you have mentioned names of a few of Harper’s Drivers, I am wondering if anybody would remember my Grandfather, Derek Holden? I’m trying to do at bit of research to surprise my dad and any leads would be fantastic. As far as I am aware he worked for the company durin the 1960’s but could have possibly been earlier than that when he started. Like I said, I have little to go on other than a rough time scale and the fact that my Grandfather was from the Bloxwich/Walsall area.
Rob Holden
14/02/16 – 05:46
Philip Rushworth queries how the Croydon operations of WA were run. I lived in Croydon from 1960 to 1966 and the vehicles were licensed in the Metropolitan Traffic Area and ran from a base effectively on a large traffic island formed by St. James’s Road, Hogarth Crescent and Whitehorse Road. Departures and arrivals used the car park at the Fairfield Halls in Barclay Road.
John Kaye
15/02/16 – 16:06
David Call, Irvine of Law have gone but Irvine (Golden Eagle) of Salsburgh are still in business although they sold their bus service to First in the 1990s. One of their Reliances (LHS 479P) famously left Loughborough with a destination blind reading AIRDIRE.
Stephen Allcroft
16/02/16 – 06:02
In the mid 1930s, Frank Flin operated a small coach business between London and Margate from a base in Park Lane, Croydon, and also ran a booking office in George Street. In 1936 he acquired the tour licences of another Croydon firm, Wilson”s Tours, and in 1937 set up Homeland Tours. At the outbreak of WW2 his seven coaches were commandeered for military use, and, at the cessation of hostilities only two were returned. An order was placed for a replacement fleet of Strachans C37F bodied Leyland Comet CPO2 coaches, //www.na3t.org/road/photo/Hu02356 but securing hotel bookings in the early post war years was very difficult for small tour operators with limited bargaining power. Around this time Leeds based Wallace Arnold was seeking to strengthen its presence in the London area, and opened negotiations with Flin. In 1948 Flin passed his tour licences to Wallace Arnold, but retained his coaches. The travel agency in George Street, though still owned by Frank Flin, then became an agency for Wallace Arnold. The maroon liveried Homeland Leyland Comet coaches continued to run private hire and day excursions, though I believe that they were operated on Flin”s behalf by Wallace Arnold. I used to see them about regularly in the Croydon area of the early 1950s. These operations were sold in 1956 to Bourne and Balmer, by then a Timpson subsidiary, who had a garage and coach station in Dingwall Road. Homeland Tours then became purely a travel agency business. It is now run under the name of Wallace Arnold World Choice by the grandson of Frank Flin in premises in George Street only a short distance from the original shop site. Notwithstanding the name, which is retained with the agreement of Shearings (the current owner of the Wallace Arnold name) it is still an independent business. The site mentioned by John Kaye is in an area known locally as Spurgeon”s Bridge after the adjacent huge Spurgeon”s Tabernacle (aka West Croydon Baptist Church). The bridge itself goes over the railway line from London into West Croydon. I used to cross this junction, then just a straightforward crossroads traversed by the 654 route trolleybuses rather than the convoluted, combined, circulatory systems of today, on my walk to school at Selhurst.
Roger Cox
16/02/16 – 08:38
This seems to be a revealing tale, Roger. The various changes and absorptions seem to have been negotiated with goodwill, and not the pac-man methods more evident today: there seems to be the idea that there could be a living for everyone. WA always seemed a decent outfit, unless others know different…
Joe
16/02/16 – 15:21
I am sure that your reading of the business relationship between Homeland Tours and Wallace Arnold is exactly correct, Joe. One imagines that the representatives of the two firms happened to meet up during tour planning/operations in the early post-war period, and saw the benefits to be accrued from joint working arrangements. That the two businesses held each other in real respect is manifest in the Wallace Arnold trading name that John Flin, the present proprietor of the Homeland Croydon agency, has adopted in the present day.
Roger Cox
17/02/16 – 05:48
Many thanks for replying – just one more thing! WA’s Croydon site was it covered/under-cover? were there maintenance facilities??. The history of London-area coaching operations is fascinating: Tom McLachlan’s “Grey-Green and contemporaries Vol 1” (taking the story to 1960) was published in in 2007 – I’m still waiting for Vol 2. And writing of delayed publication dates, on 06.XII.12 Mick Bullock promised publication of an in depth history of Harpers – now that’s another book I’m eagerly awaiting . . .
Philip Rushworth
18/02/16 – 05:51
Wallace Arnold lives on in room 136 Burlington Hotel Eastbourne Feb 2016 a little thread bear in places.
Ken Wragg
18/02/16 – 10:19
The WA’s are fairly subtle, Ken, you wouldn’t notice, if you didn’t know! Why is it there and how did you know it was there?
Chris Hebbron
18/02/16 – 10:20
Ken, an amazing discovery in the weave of the carpet – does it actually refer to the coaching giant, or is it a pure coincidence?? Also, I’m sure I recall that either a TV documentary, or possibly a bought DVD, featured Barbara Flin in her days as a courier on some of the first ambitious Continental tours, to Interlaken in particular. She eventually had a major victory against the snooty Manager of a leading hotel (still there now) in Interlaken when he “banished” her and the driver to a quiet corner of the ballroom to eat, rather than allowing them to dine in style with their passengers. Eventually she won and they were restored to their rightful place in the Dining Room. I may be wrong, time dulls the memory, but I’m sure she was eventually the wife of Francis Flin at Croydon – can anyone confirm please, or shall I “get mi ‘at.”
Chris Youhill
18/02/16 – 11:56
This discovery of Wallace Arnold carpet was in the room allocated during a holiday last week at the Burlington Hotel Eastbourne (an old Wallace Arnold hotel). I was happy to see this memento of the past but it does not show the quality I expect of the Holiday Co that owns the hotel. I add the other photo of carpet.
Ken Wragg
19/02/16 – 05:41
Phillip, I am also eagerly awaiting volume 2 of Tom McLachlan’s book. I understand that, although he now has health problems , the final draft was finished some years ago and it is hoped that his son will complete the book.
Nigel Turner
19/02/16 – 05:42
Oh dear Ken – the second photo shows that it high time the carpet was chucked out – I hope that the rest of the hotel and in particular the cleanliness and the food were much fresher !!
Chris Youhill
19/02/16 – 05:43
Thanks for thinking of photographing – I might offer to take it off their hands should they ever get round to re-decorating! “Dear Manager, As a resident of Leeds you will understand my interest in acquiring certain carpets, should they become available . . . “ Latterly WA owned eight hotels: Pentire Hotel, Newquay; County Hotel, Llandudno; Trecarn Hotel, Torquay; Savoy Hotel, Bournemouth; Grand Hotel, Exmouth; Broadway Park Hotel, Sandown; The Fife Arms, Braemar; and the Burlington. Shearings owned quite a number of hotels, more than WA, at the time of the “merge-over”
Philip Rushworth
19/02/16 – 09:32
Philip – despite the similarity in names with Trecarne didn’t WA also own the Tolcarne Hotel, also I believe in Devon ??
Chris Youhill
19/02/16 – 15:26
A wonderful story, Chris, and I am sure that your identification of the redoubtable lady who challenged the preposterous social status nonsense of a certain hotel manager is entirely accurate. The spelling of the name “Flin” is unusual, and the likelihood of there being another lady in the tour business with the first name of Barbara must be pretty remote. Frank Flin died in 1962, and the Homeland agency then passed to his son, Francis John Flin, whose wife is Barbara Mary Flin, now in her eighties. Both are still shown as directors of the business. Their son, John Richard Flin, currently runs the firm. (“So you can leave t” “at “anging in t” “all.” Apologies if my West Riding dialect is all wrong – my mother came from the East Riding.) Apparently the old close and rewarding relationship with Wallace Arnold was lost with the Shearings takeover, to the detriment of the travel agency business, but matters did recover to some degree subsequently. On the subject of the Wallace Arnold depot at Spurgeon”s Bridge, Croydon, I cannot personally recall much about it. However, the Commercial Motor Archive tells us that around a dozen coaches were drafted in during the summer months, though whether or not this means that the base was only used in summer, or that a smaller winter allocation was augmented for the season, is unclear. I would surmise that the facilities there were pretty basic. Apparently, the depot was closed finally in 1985, whereupon Wallace Arnold then stationed some 30 vehicles at the London Buses Norwood Garage, which was contracted to clean and refuel them. This indicates that mechanical maintenance work was undertaken elsewhere.
Roger Cox
20/02/16 – 05:04
Mention of the Flin family in Croydon reminds me of a brief period when I worked in their office in the winter of 1964/65. At that time I worked in the WA Traffic Office in Leeds and volunteered to spend a week filling and addressing envelopes with tour brochures in the Flin/WA office. Highlights of the week included travelling down from Leeds to London on a brown/cream Pullman (2nd class of course). For safety (being a snivelling 16 year old) my parents insisted I stay with my aunt rather than in a dubious B&B. This was fine with me as I made the daily commute on red (Central Area) and green (Country Area) RTs from Tolworth to Croydon via Epsom. Sadly, because of the time of year, most of the rides were in the dark, but I felt really grown-up being a London commuter! A final memory is of the kindness (and tolerance) of the Flin family, one of whom gave me a publicity photo of their Homeland Tours Duplex coach JVB 908 (see www.sct61.org.uk/zzjvb908)
Paul Haywood
21/02/16 – 05:56
Roger and Paul – curiosity has just made me seek out the footage with Barbara Flyn and her account of the stuffy Interlaken Jungfrau Hotel is as I remembered it. It was a Channel 4 programme called “The golden years of coach travel” or something similar, and is excellent throughout. The links feature Stephen Barber of WA and a fascinating Lancashire chap who was a lifelong passenger with Yelloways of Rochdale. Paul – I never knew of your little adventure to Croydon – I would gladly have done the same and written a few envelopes to “fund” it.
Chris Youhill
21/02/16 – 15:47
I recall that programme, Chris. It was “The Golden Age Of Coach Travel”. I made a DVD copy of it for a former work colleague at Peterborough, who told me about the no holds barred scramble to get away from Cheltenham when the “departure pistol” went off for all coaches to leave at the same time. Drivers who had communed jovially during the break period then jostled mercilessly to get out and away from the queue that quickly formed at the exit. The programme is still available on Youtube and I’ve just watched it again. Notwithstanding a few inconsistencies, it is a fascinating record of a time that, sadly, has totally gone.
Roger Cox
21/02/16 – 15:48
I’ve found “The Golden Age of Coach Travel” on YouTube. It is a BBC production of 2010. There are some wonderful anecdotes about the ‘services’ the drivers’ provided, some dubious! Here’s the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrDQ9SNYwyc
Chris Hebbron
22/02/16 – 06:15
Does any one remember the series on TV featuring a driver called Cannonball doing a Devon/Cornwall tour for Wallace Arnold is it still available.
Ken Wragg
22/02/16 – 09:03
‘Cannonball’ certainly appears in the above documentary, but is only one of several drivers saying their piece.
Chris Hebbron
23/02/16 – 05:26
Chris Y. At the time of the brochure from which I copied the hotels list above – mid 1990s? as there were a mix of van Hool/Jonckheere/Plaxton-bodied coaches pictured – there was no mention of the Tolcarne Hotel, but I’ve done a quick Google and there was a Tolcarne Hotel in Newquay . . . “filthy and old-fashioned” according the last TripAdvisor comment in 2008. And whilst I was about that I also Googled “Barbara Flynn” [sic], who apparently has been married to a Jeremy Taylor since 1982/34y-old, so the Homeland Tours connection is looking a bit weak here! Don’t get your coat though – I’d miss your knowledgeable contributions (although I might take any further contributions about the performing arts with a pinch of salt!).
Philip Rushworth
23/02/16 – 10:43
Phillip, you are looking at Barbara Flynn the actress. She played, along with many other parts, the Milk Lady in ‘Open All Hours’, and appeared with James Bolam in the Beiderbecke Trilogy. The Barbara Flin in the Golden Age of Coaching was a different lady altogether, and was a Courier/Guide with Wallace Arnold.
Stephen Howarth
23/02/16 – 10:46
It’s not Barbara Flynn, it’s Barbara Flin, Philip. This lady is now in her eighties, and, with her husband Francis, is still a director of the Wallace Arnold World Wide agency in Croydon. (Hasn’t this discussion come a long way from a wartime Guy Arab!)
Roger Cox
13/03/16 – 14:48
I was beginning to wonder if I was on the right page here seeing as I’ve had to wade through loads of comments nothing to do with Harper Bros. The Guy JVK 654 was bought as a chassis and was fitted with a Lawton body, nothing in the Heath Hayes History caption says it was a crash box, only that it was back to front which it was. 1st & 2nd gear nearest the driver 3rd & 4th nearest the engine. Regarding the RT’s, All the Leylands were from London and the first two AEC’s with Craven Bodies built in Anglesey as caption states, Fleet No’s 2 & 12 KGK 729 & KGK 738.The other seven RTA’s were from St Helens purchased 61/2.
Phil Burton
14/03/16 – 06:53
All Guy Arab I and the great majority of Arab II chassis were fitted with the Guy four speed sliding mesh gearbox with the ‘right to left’ upward selector positions and the double plate clutch inherited from the early 1934 Arab model. Arab IIs from late 1945 onwards had the new Guy constant mesh box which had a conventional ‘left to right’ selector gate coupled with a single plate clutch. This gearbox/clutch combination then went into the new Arab III that was available from late 1946.
Roger Cox
14/03/16 – 06:53
The assumption that a right-to-left gearbox would be “crash” comes from the fact that the only gearbox Guy built to that pattern was the unit used in wartime Arabs, which was sliding-mesh. The most likely explanation is that the Arab III acquired a gearbox from a defunct utility double-decker later in life. The point about the Craven bodies on the RTs is that they were built in Sheffield, not Anglesey. It was Saunders bodies that were built in Anglesey.
Peter Williamson
17/03/16 – 15:16
Of course you are right Peter, the Cravens bodies were built in Sheffield as you say, I put it down to c-nile dementia, I’m getting old lol. The Guy JVK 653 was new in 1946 but came to Harpers as just a chassis in 1954 and a Lawton body was fitted. The gear knob was maroon and of a mushroom shape rather than a ball
Phil Burton
28/03/16 – 11:38
I’m an lifelong Villa fan and have just been given a very old bus blind (shown here framed and back lit) by a mate of mine here in New Zealand – he brings in vintage stuff from the UK to sell on in this part of the world – the cloth blind has a sloping font and 7 destinations ‘FOOTBALL’ ‘WOLVES’ ‘VILLA’ ‘ALBION’ ‘TO THE SHOW’ ‘SPECIAL’ and ‘EXCURSION’. He knew, because of the sloping font, that it came off a 40’s / 50’s bus and after hunting around the internet my guess, after reading this page and in particular the post on 12/06/12 by Phil Burton, is that it came of a Harper Bros bus. Looking at the images I can find my guess is that it came off a/the Guy Arab III with Lawton bodywork.
George Shaw
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
10/04/16 – 05:24
Homeland Tours owned a booking office in Park Lane Croydon, on the corner of Park Street in the 1950s. Their fleet of Leyland coaches were kept at the Regal Garage in the Old Kent Road. The owners of the Regal Garage sold it to new owners in 1955, and Homeland Tours were asked to vacate the premises. The Homeland Tours fleet was sold to Bourne and Balmer of Croydon, a subsidiary company of Timpsons since 1953. The two Homeland Tours Leyland Tiger Cubs with underfloor engines MBY 909, MBY 910,were kept by Bourne and Balmer, but the normal control Leyland Comets were sold to dealers. Homeland Tours became an agent for Wallace Arnold, and the Park Lane office traded under the Wallace Arnold name. The building was sold some years later, and they moved around the corner to George Street. At least one of the Leyland Comets went to work for Chiltern Queens in Oxford.
What looks like a pre delivery photo of three Daimlers for Newcastle Corporation, “note the blue light to the side of the destination blind†this has been commented on before on this site. Going by the registrations I would say they were built in the late 1930s, and to be honest if I were shown a picture of one of these in a different location I wouldn’t be able to say who the bodybuilder was, but I think the name on the building may be a clue.
What on earth were they thinking of with the front wing and the headlights? They look as if someone remembered them about ten minutes before they were due to leave the factory and they were stuck on as an afterthought, for me they completely spoil the look of what is otherwise a rather handsome vehicle. I don’t know anything about them, maybe someone can provide information for the “?s”. But if I’m right about the date they would almost certainly ‘or the chassis would’ have still been around until about the early to mid fifties.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
06/06/12 – 07:50
Yes, good looking vehicles, spoiled by the apparent afterthought of where to place the headlamps. Then again, perhaps they did omit the headlamps entirely, as these are where most folk would expect the fog lights.
Pete Davies
06/06/12 – 07:51
HTN 231, 233, presumably from the same batch of 1939 NCB bodied COG5s, finished up in 1956 with the LCBER bus fleet. See my recent post, and fleet list on the subject
John Whitaker
06/06/12 – 07:52
This picture appears in Alan Townsin’s book “Daimler”, where it is credited to the Newcastle-upon-Tyne City Libraries. The photo was taken in June 1939, and shows the first three of a batch of 18 COG5 machines with Northern Coachbuilders bodies, which were followed by two more with Northern Counties bodies. This batch of 20 brought the total number of COG5 buses in the Newcastle fleet up to 71, the highest number outside Birmingham at that time.
Roger Cox
06/06/12 – 07:52
From the registration number this looks like the same series as the two mentioned in the recently posted fleet list of Llandudno & Colwyn Bay vehicles (Nos. 1 and 2).
Stephen Ford
06/06/12 – 11:38
Bus headlamps are a fascinating topic to study. Several operators in the late thirties decided that low mooted headlamps or maybe fog lamps were more effective for smog conditions in many of the major cities. The first LPTB RT AECs had no main headlamps in the traditional place, and similarly Coventry had some Daimler COG5s with only low mounted lights similar to the Newcastle COG5s.
Richard Fieldhouse
06/06/12 – 11:38
I gather from photos published elsewhere that it was not until January 1949 that legislation specified how the headlights had to be placed. Nottingham favoured low-down “driving lamps” like this from 1935 and only modified them when the law changed. Did it improve visibility in fog? We tend to forget that headlights were not used routinely on (reasonably) well-lit city roads until comparatively recently. I wonder how practical they were when fitted with blackout shutters during the war? I have also seen (possibly on this site – not sure) buses with the two headlights mounted at different heights.
Stephen Ford
06/06/12 – 17:34
I cannot remember where, Stephen, but you are right about asymmetrical headlight siting. Interesting to see these NCB bodies. They bear no resemblance to those I came to know post-war in Sheffield. They are quite a well balanced design and it seems a pity that they were abandoned after the war. I have wondered, occasionally, whether the post-war design was deliberately similar to Weymann. (There is a vague similarity, and NCB’s order for about 40 bodies on various chassis was primarily to fill in for the fact that Weymann did not have the capacity to fulfil all its orders at that time.)
David Oldfield
06/06/12 – 19:42
Rather a splendid frontage to the NCB factory, which I’m rather surprised no one in this posting has picked up on. Don’t suppose it has survived.
Eric Bawden
06/06/12 – 20:02
Long gone I’m afraid, Eric, but the Mill is still there but missing the top
Ronnie Hoye
08/06/12 – 17:15
Headlamp heights: the classic example is the early post war Morris Minor which pictures show with headlamps tucked in at the side of the radiator grille: then they had to be lifted into two fairings in the wings. The early Hillman Imp had excessive toe in on the front wheels to lift the headlamps- it is said: someone miscalculated, I assume. Those old headlamps (CAV?) really did dip- the outer one just went out, often leaving the inner directed at the kerb. Consequently, the outer lamp was rarely used. Nowadays these would be foglamps, which was possibly the idea- or perhaps it avoided awkward brackets. The mudguards suggest quite some travel on the front suspension!
Joe
08/06/12 – 17:16
To try and answer David’s query about post-war NCB body design, one has to look-back to the war period. NCB was designated by the Ministry of War Transport to supply only re-bodies. In late 1944 the LPTB was directed to order 20 bodies for their war-damaged AEC and Leyland trolleybuses. NCB delivered a body similar to the pre-war style of LPTB trolleybus in late 1945 and all were delivered by mid 1946. These NCB bodied trolleybuses had a suffix C after their fleet number.
In June 1946 Bradford Corporation received their first of six NCB re-bodied 1934/35 AEC 661Ts (607, 614, 615, 616, 621 & 622). These bodies closely resembled the London C suffix trolleybuses and the back views were almost identical such as the emergency upper deck window and the platform window. The front windows however were more of the utility body style with opening vents and a result referred to as semi-utility. A rear view of 607 is appended. From this unique NCB semi-utility design emerged the standard NCB Mark 2 body by late 1946. This type was then seen in many towns and cities on both new and old chassis. This NCB body had an improved, more rounded front style and a reduced rear platform window but a similar LPTB rear upper -deck window shape. This may explain the link in NCB design with LPTB MCCW, Weymann and BRCW trolleybus bodies.
Richard Fieldhouse
08/06/12 – 18:00
Thanks Richard. Logical and highly likely.
David Oldfield
The links below are to comments that were updated at 18:20
Richard`s explanation is succinct and clear. It was obviously an easier design move, to develop the Bradford Mk1 “semi” design into what became the standard post war style. What I would also like to know is whether the pre-war style, as used by Newcastle, Aberdare and others , was a metal framed design. If so, there is another reason for going down the “London rebody” route, as the post war style of NCB body, well known in so many fleets, was a composite product. Another interesting aspect about this company, is their adoption of an “ECW” style about 1950, which superseded the standard type. Trolleybuses for Cleethorpes, and Mark 111s for Newcastle refer. After the post war boom, aided by the failure of EEC to re-enter the market, NCB collapsed, and were wound up c.1951. Published literature refers to the company operating in a converted aircraft hanger. Is this the same building as the one shown in the header photograph?
It may be interesting to also point out that NCB built significant numbers of Park Royal designed utility bodies on wartime Guys for London Transport.
John Whitaker
09/06/12 – 07:46
John, the building in the photo was on Claremont Road in the Spital Tongues area, and overlooked Hunters Moor and Exhibition Park, I think the aircraft hanger you refer to was in Cramlington which is about 7 miles north of Newcastle.
Ronnie Hoye
09/06/12 – 07:47
John the reason for the ECW clone – with strangely unbalanced and unequal bays – was that someone from ECW management went to NCB just before they folded. The reason that they folded was that their owner/principal shareholder died and the death duties did for the company. Interestingly, the machinery and raw materials were bought by Charles H Roe – and, one assumes, used subsequently for their own production. Doubly interesting since there is no record of Roe bodies being iffy but the NCB composites had a quite dreadful reputation – especially for the frames sagging in middle and later life. Sad since I thought Sheffield’s last batch, MWB 1950 Regent III, were quite handsome.
David Oldfield
09/06/12 – 07:48
The ‘ECW style’ Northern Coachbuilders bodies supplied to Cleethorpes on BUT trolleybuses and Newcastle on AEC Regents followed the appointment of Mr B W Bramham as General Manager at NCB. Prior to his move to NCB Mr Bramham at been at ECW since 1936 and before that he had been at Charles Roe’s. I understand that NCB offered both wooden and metal framed bodies. Many of the wooden framed bodies suffered from poor quality timber, which caused them to look ‘down at heel’ in later life.
Michael Elliott
09/06/12 – 12:10
You are correct, David, when you refer to sagging NCB bodies! Although Bradford`s 1947/8 regent IIIs lasted until 1962/3, I have this abiding memory of curved waist rails! Strangely though, contemporary bodies on the rebodied 1934/5 AEC trolleybuses never demonstrated this feature! But that, perhaps, is an indication of the superiority of electric traction! (half joking!)
John Whitaker
09/06/12 – 17:40
I read somewhere that someone from NCB went to work for Barnard, and that Barnard then produced a few bodies to NCB design. But when was this, and which NCB design? Or did I dream that?
Peter Williamson
11/06/12 – 15:09
Bradford also had 6 1950 Daimler CVD6s, with Barnard bodies, Peter, and I too heard from somewhere that there was an NCB connection. The body plates on Bradford`s Barnard Daimlers referred to “Barnard Norfolk Ironworks”….I remember it well, so whether they were composite or not, I have no idea. I have not seen photographs of identical vehicles in other fleets, although I understand there were some, and there was a vague resemblance to the NCB design. Again, I have memories of buses with curved waist rails towards the end of their BCT lives, but all 6 were sold on for further service in 1959.
John Whitaker
22/09/14 – 14:40
The reason for the very low down head lights or fog lights (often NOTEK!) on our lovely old buses was that in the 30s and 40s we had in both the north Newcastle and Leeds etc as well as London extreme smog! This was a really lethal mixture of coal fire and industrial smoke from foundries and steel furnaces etc (all moved to China now!) with very high levels of soot in it and then heavy fog to hold it down and stop it dissipating easily! I have experienced smog in Leeds and London where the services were stopped it was so bad and the conductors had to guide the drivers of the buses back to the depots with make shift flares and torches! That’s the reason for the low down bus lighting to try and prevent glareback and focus what light came through on to the near side kerb! The clean air act changed all this and then now all heavy industry emigrated to China!
Stuart Beveridge
13/10/15 – 06:38
Yesterday Purchased Geoff Burrows and Bob Kell’s book on NCB published this year, it is very good. It also answers various of the points here; the utility drawings were originally provided by Park Royal and NCB did assemble and finish some PRV frames on Guy Arab MoS for London Transport. However the post-war series 1 design was based on NCB’s own wartime frame. When the team working on it were designing it they worked empirically by adjusting the drawings of the initial Bradford trolleybuses, lowering the lower deck waist-rail and then producing a more curved back until somebody in the drawing office realised it was looking almost identical to a 1939 Weymann; that’s when the trademark upper-deck front windows and the LT derived emergency exit were added; the rebodies for Northern were in build as the last of the Bradford trolleys were being completed and the design lasted until 1951. All NCB bus and coach bodies with a few exceptions were composite, those exceptions being the initial Newcastle corporation Daimler COS4 single-deckers and the Guy Arabs exported to Sri Lanka (then Ceylon) although William Bramham would have moved to metal framing had the business continued. Sam Smith who founded the company also owned Rington’s tea, Smiths Electric Vehicles and a cardboard packaging frim called Cut-Outs (Cardboard) Ltd as well as a stake in Domestos. The company wasn’t liquidated and the name was used for mobile shops etc built at the Smith Electric Vehicles place on Team Valley as well as coachwork repairs and sign-painting at Haymarket. The Claremont Coachworks building was sold to Newcastle Co-Operative society and the stock in trade and Machinery to Charles H Roe to pay Sam Smith’s death duties; of the staff made redundant some went to Saunders Roe, most notably Mr Bramham. The Barnard bodies were based on the NCB series one but were even more prone to degradation. The chief designer and his head draughtsman left NCB after an order for BET single-deckers ended up being badly delayed leading to a partial cancellation and also ended up costing NCB money.The Leyland Tigers for Yorkshire Traction and Stratford Blue were due in 1947 and the last did not arrive until 1949. The people concerned joined Barnard in 1948. It was not so long after the ECW was nationalised; resulting in a sales ban and Mr Bramham joining NCB. The draughtsman ended his career as managing Director of Bus Bodies South Africa. The low-level driving lights were also used by United and the Northern Group
Stephen Allcroft
14/10/15 – 07:15
Apologies, a slight misreading of Messrs Kell and Burrows’ book and thus an apology. The Ceylon Guy Arabs were composite but teak rather than the usual oak and ash employed by NCB which would have been eaten away in months. They were however built in an attempt to establish an export trade which would have then given them permits for steel and aluminium.
Stephen Allcroft
15/10/15 – 07:15
The mudguards maybe something to do with brake cooling which became an obsession with Manchester post war.
Phil Blinkhorn
16/10/15 – 06:02
There was something really obscene with death duties if it forced companies into liquidation, throwing employees into unemployment! I realise it was unwise for privately-owned companies like NCB and Ledgard not to become Ltd companies, but that’s not the point, for even smaller companies that didn’t warrant becoming Ltd companies would also have suffered.
Newcastle Corporation 1950 AEC Regent III 9612A Northern Coachbuilders H30/26R
Not a very good picture I’m afraid. I got my PSV licence in 1967 with Tynemouth & Wakefields (Northern General). By the time of the Queens Silver Jubilee in 1977 I was with Armstrong Galley, the coaching division of Tyne & Wear PTE. The PTE decided to commemorate the Jubilee by using two buses that were in service at the time of the Coronation in 1953. This 1950 Northern Coachbuilders bodied AEC was one of them, the other was a 1948 Leyland Titan. The Leyland was in its original livery of blue and cream, and I think it was part of the last batch to be delivered before the colour’s were changed to livery seen here in the picture. The route ran between Newcastle City Centre and Gosforth, however, by 1977 the PTE had a shortage of drivers with an any type licence, so on occasion drivers from the coaching division were drafted in to fill in gaps. I don’t know who the vehicles belonged to at the time, but they’re still around and belong to a member or members of the North East Bus Preservation Trust Ltd.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
17/10/11 – 07:34
Thx, Ronnie, for the nice photo. The body is very nicely proportioned, although it does give the air of being a lowbridge vehicle for some reason. Newcastle corporation’s livery was very attractive. I refreshed my memory only a couple of weeks ago when I visited the East Anglia Museum and 501 (LTN 501), on loan from Beamish, was doing the rounds.
Chris Hebbron
17/10/11 – 07:35
The post war NCB bodies were, like many others, notoriously badly built (structurally) and this was partly the reason for their folding up in 1950/51. At the last gasp, someone from ECW came along to try and resurrect the fortunes – hence the looks of these, NCB’s last, bodies. Alas to no avail. After NCB closed, Roe bought machinery and timber from the receivers. They did not buy the company itself which disappeared.
David Oldfield
13/10/15 – 06:41
Dave Oldfield’s a little unfair. NCB had problems with green timber but so did Massey to a Much larger extent and even (whisper it) ECW. It wasn’t because of failures with the product that NCB’s coachworks, machinery and stock in trade was sold, it was to pay death duties on the estate of the founder Sam Smith, the Smith family had to let go of one of their interests and rightly saw the coachwork boom coming to an end.
Stephen Allcroft
01/03/20 – 06:32
I was looking at the last bus from the Newcastle Transport and which was for Gosforth Park and would like to get the information of the route number which the buses was during those period of the 1970s and this help will be welcomed to get this route destinations onto my models required for the layout system.
Christopher Norris
02/03/20 – 06:49
Christopher, the commemorative route number this bus and LVK 123 were used on in 1977 was Route number 44
Ronnie Hoye
03/03/20 – 06:31
Christopher, I’ll give you the full route inbound from Gosforth Park, as its easier to explain. South from Gosforth Park into Newcastle City Centre, was a straight run down The Great North Road, which until the Tyne Tunnel opened in the late 60’s was still the A1. As I said, it was a straight run, but it went through several name changes. For about the first three miles, it was the Gt North Road, then for about two miles, it became Gosforth High Street, then back to the Great North Road. On entering the City, it first became Barras Bridge, then Northumberland Street, and finally Pilgrim Street. At this point the 44 turned right, into Market Street, which lead into Grainger Street. At the bottom of Grainger Street, it turned right into Neville Street, where it stopped outside the Central Station, it would then turn right into Bewick Street, which was the terminus. From there, it would turn right in to Clayton Street, then right again into Westgate Road, then left into Grainger Street, and then the reverse of the inbound route.
Tynemouth and District 1949 AEC Regent III Northern Coachbuilders H30/26R
Eight of these splendid AEC Regent III were among the 1949 intake. By 1951, the size of the name had been considerably reduced; this would also be around the time these were due for their first repaint, so my guess would be that the photo was taken roughly 1950 or thereabouts. As things turned out, they would be the last new AEC double deckers to enter service at Percy Main, with the next four intakes all being Guy Arabs, although AEC remained the preferred choice for single deck vehicles and coaches. After the intake at the beginning of 1940, no new vehicles were allocated to Percy Main until 1946. During the war several vehicles were requisitioned by the Ministry of Transport or transferred to other depots within the NGT group, to make matters worse, the bodies on all the NGT group forward entrance Short Brothers AEC Regent I’s, had developed serious structural faults at the leading edge of the doors, by 1943, they had deteriorated to such an extent that special permission was granted to have them rebodied, presumably as utilities. Northern Coachbuilders carried out the work at their Cramlington works. The H26/24R Short Bros and H28/24R Brush bodied AEC Regent I’s from 1931 and 1932 seem to have lasted somewhat better, they were rebodied in 1945. They were also done by NCB, but at Claremont Road in Newcastle. Once rebodied 42 – 51 – 79/80/81 & 89 all returned to Percy Main, the remainder were reallocated to other depots and renamed and numbered, but retained their original registrations. The years between 1946 and 1949 saw a frenzy of activity, with no less than 52 new vehicles arriving at Percy Main, bear in mind that the total fleet was around 120 vehicles, of which about 18 were coaches.
New vehicles were:- 1946 – 123/127 – FT 5623/5627 – H56R Northern Counties Guy Arab II G5LW. 1947 – 128/142 – FT 5698/5712 – H30/26R Weymann AEC Regent II – 141/142 carried the Wakefields name. 1948 – 143/156 – FT 6143/6156 – H30/26R Weymann AEC Regent II – 155/156 carried the Wakefields name. 1949 – 157/164 – FT 6557/6564 – H30/26R Northern Coachbuilders AEC Regent III – 157/158 carried the Wakefields name. 165/174 – FT 6565/6574 – H30/26R Pickering Guy Arab II.
In addition, 18 pre war vehicles were rebodied in 1949 and returned to the depot, they were:- 93/95 – FT 4220/4222 – 1938 H26/26F Weymann AEC Regent I – Rebodied by Pickering as H30/26R: 1957 sold to Provincial as replacements for vehicles destroyed in garage fire, finally withdrawn 1964. 96/103; FT 4496/4503: 1938 H26/26F Weymann Leyland TD5 – Rebodied H30/26R Northern Coachbuilders MK 3. 1939 – 111/112 – FT 4941/4942 / 1940 – 114 – FT 5224 – 117/118; FT 5227/5228 – 119/120; FT 5262/5263 – All B38F Brush AEC Regal – Rebodied B38F Pickering.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
07/05/14 – 12:26
I think this looks a very handsome vehicle, Ronnie. These NCB bodies always remind me very much – if you cover up the very obviously different front ends – to the Park Royal-bodied Regent III’s of my local operator Halifax Corporation/JOC. Bradford had some very similar to these, and Huddersfield JOC had some lowbridge ones. They appeared to develop quite a degree of body sag though and pictures of many of them a few years on show a distinct downward curve in the waistrail (I know how they must have felt!). A nice straight forward, yet cheerful livery and an impressive gold shaded fleetname. Looks just right.
John Stringer
07/05/14 – 17:36
Sheffield had quite a number of these NCB bodies – 10 each on Daimler CVD6 and Crossley DD42 chassis and 2 lots of 10 on AEC Regent III chassis. The final 10 were of a slightly more modern appearance, and I thought they were rather handsome. I agree with you entirely, John, about the Halifax Park Royals – but I actually think the front has an echo of the classical Weymann front. They were, however, as you say, quite dire, with their pronounced body sag which I assume was for the usual reason of unseasoned timber – being all they could get, even in the early post-war period. The first lot of Regents were included in the green repaint experiments – which was an unmitigated disaster. One assumes that the quality of the timber had improved by the time of the Newcastle “ECW clones”. NCB closed shortly after but Roe’s bought all the machinery AND the timber from the receivers.
David Oldfield
07/05/14 – 17:36
Mention of the AEC Regent III /NCBs for Bradford Corporation (524 – 543; 1947/48) by John has made me think there were several variants of the AEC Regent III. Bradford specified the 9.6 litre engine and the pre-selector transmission, whilst some BET Companies preferred the 7.7 litre engine and the crash gearbox. What was the specification Ronnie of the Tynemouth and District AEC Regent III posted above? When new these buses were splendid sight as shown above and the body fitted well on many other similar types of chassis such as the Leyland PD, Daimler CV and Guy Arab III.
Richard Fieldhouse
They were 7.7 with a crash box, Richard. So far as I am aware, the NGT group never had any pre select half cabs, there were certainly none at Percy Main, and the only semi auto half cabs were the Routemasters. Newcastle Corporation had some very similar NCB bodied Regent III, although they were slightly different under the windscreen, I think they were pre select. Obviously they were double fronted, but they also had 4 and 6 wheel trolleybuses with this style of body (501 is in preservation) As I remember, these and the Newcastle Regents were outlasted by the Weymann bodied Regent 11 from 1947 and 1948, perhaps they developed the body sag problems mentioned. SDO had some Regent III with ROE bodies, they were later transferred to Northern, and lasted until about 1965 or so.
Ronnie Hoye
08/05/14 – 07:51
‘Bus Lists on the Web’ shows the Tynemouth and District Regent IIIs as type 9612A, which, if correct, gives them 9.6 litre engines and crash gearboxes.
Peter Williamson
08/05/14 – 08:11
I stand corrected, Peter. The 1947/48 Regent II were 7.7, and most of the 1949 Pickering bodied Guy Arab III, which came with Meadows engines were later converted to AEC 7.7, but these may well have been 9.6 units, so perhaps spares may have been another reason why they were withdrawn before the Regent II and the Guy’s.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Wakefields Motors 1932 AEC Regent I Short Bros – Northern Coachbuilders H56R (1945)
Featured elsewhere on this site is a posting of a 1931 Short Bros bodied AEC Regent of Portsmouth Corporation. Between 1931/2 Percy Main depot took delivery of 16 virtually identical vehicles, I cant be absolutely certain about the fleet or registration numbers, but my information suggests they came in two batches of eight, and were FT 2516/23 – 34/41 in 1931; and FT 2611/18 – 42/9 in 1932: In 1940, three of them, 39/41 were transferred to Northern. All 16 were rebodied by Northern Coachbuilders, the first was 49, that was during the war years and it received a utility body, it too was also transferred, but the remainder were done in 1945, and all as seen here. All the vehicles that remained at Percy Main retained their original fleet numbers, four of them, 42/5, carried the Wakefields name, but that apart they were all identical.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
28/07/13 – 07:36
These bodies were notorious for sagging (green wood in the frames) but this one looks smart – probably photographed when the body was new. Is that a retro-fitted post-war radiator? Looks a little long – certainly compared with Sheffield’s 1952 rebuilds of 1938/9 Regent I chassis which retained the original (short) radiators.
David Oldfield
28/07/13 – 10:37
The high gloss and standard of finish of this very attractive body suggests at least a repaint and possibly an overhaul, hence no sag! I notice it’s been given the later, longer, AEC rad, which always improved the frontal appearance.
Chris Hebbron
28/07/13 – 12:44
You mention the high gloss, Chris, even as late as 1967, when I first started at Percy Main, all vehicles were repainted every three years, they were hand painted, and the process was five coats, the last one being a clear varnish. But ‘here we go again’ that was pre NBC, and all the NGT group companies had a pride in their fleets, as did the vast majority of operators at the time.
Ronnie Hoye
29/07/13 – 07:47
There was some discussion on the SCT site a while ago about the NGT pre-war SOS which was rebodied with this style of NCB body in 1945. Noting that Ronnie states that these AEC’s were also rebodied in 1945 and taking that date to be correct, would that make NCB the first British coachbuilder to produce bodywork to full peacetime standards after WW2?
Chris Barker
29/07/13 – 14:53
I can’t help noticing that, disregarding the front end, the rest of this bus looks remarkably similar to Halifax Corporation/JOC’s Park Royal-bodied Regents of 1947-50. These were based on Park Royal’s wartime utility design with a prewar-style rear dome and the frontal profile modified to resemble the current postwar metal-framed design. As I understand it, Park Royal were responsible for designing the original utility double-deck body for the MoS which other manufacturers then put their own interpretation on. NCB did build some utilities, so I wonder if these and their early postwar bodies were based on the Park Royal utility design.
John Stringer
29/07/13 – 17:39
Thanks for offering this, Ronnie. Another gem from your collection. So far as pride in the fleet is concerned, it does seem to have carried forward into what is now the Go Ahead Group, if my experiences with Brighton & Hove, Oxford, and the “Go South Coast” members (Solent Blue Line, Southern Vectis and Wilts & Dorset) are any guide. The punters notice such things, too, with the local member of that group based in Aberdeen getting a far less favourable press than GA.
Pete Davies
30/07/13 – 07:19
Interesting to see such a modern-looking body on a chassis with semi-floating rear axle. The short bay ahead of the platform intrigues me too: did the chassis have the older 15′ 6½” wheelbase? A standard postwar NCB body would have been designed around a roughly 16′ 3″ wheelbase, so this one would have needed adapting. Whatever the structural problems may have been, I still find these bodies very good-looking.
Ian Thompson
31/07/13 – 07:54
I submitted some thoughts too this Old Bus website in 2012 on post-war NCB design relating to the Bradford Corporation re-bodied AEC 661T trolleybuses 597 to 632 series from 1946 through to 1949 and resubmit my views to this debate. These views can be found on the OB site under Newcastle Corporation – Daimler.
This photo of Bradford “Regen” 607 was taken in 1944 outside Duckworth Lane depot and shows this trolleybus in dark blue with war time white paint and headlamp masks. The overhead wiring has flash guards fitted on the points as a blackout precaution. Also present are two Bradford motor buses in khaki livery which did not apply to any of the trolleybuses in the fleet. The bus on the left is a 1939 Daimler COG6/English Electric Company and the bus on the right is a 1936 Daimler COG6/Weymann. Behind 607 there is a parked 1935 “Regen” in the “new blue” livery introduced by Bradford in 1942. “New blue” was the description used by the Bradford engineering staff during the early years of this light blue and cream livery which remained the standard in Bradford up to April 1972 when WYPTE took over all the Corporation fleets in West Yorkshire. From my research I have found that 607 had a serious front accident in late December 1935 and was rebuilt with a full width cab and seating reduced to 58. The control contactors and shunt resistors were relocated from the chassis side to the cab. All the “Regens” except 632 were originally built with a half cab and 60 seats but all were rebuilt to full cabs as 607 in 1937/38 and the seating reduced to 58. Perversely due to the cramped half cabs, the main circuit breakers were located on the roof trolley gantry and operated by levers in the drivers’ cab connected by Boden cables with steel wires. Overtime these steel wires extended and often broke rendering the trolleybus inert and an operational disaster. It is surprising that Bradford did not fit cab located circuit breakers at the time when the full bulkheads were fitted. This work however did start in 1942 for some “Regens” but was not done to 607 where the large boxes are the circuit breakers which can be seen on the roof. 607 was withdrawn for re-bodying in June 1945 and returned to service with a Northern Coachbuilders Mark 1 56 seat body in September 1946.
The photo of 620 now with a 1949 Northern Coachbuilders Mark 2 56 seat body shows it accelerating noisily up Godwin Street in Bradford City Centre in October 1952. In the background is a Brush bodied “Regen” on the Allerton service to the City Centre terminus. 620 still wears the glorious Tattam livery with cream bands, black beading and yellow lining. It soon lost its cream bands, was moved from Duckworth Lane depot to Thornbury in 1954 and then could be seen elsewhere in the City, Sadly 620 was withdrawn from service prematurely in April 1958 due to a serious accident when it skidded and overturned on the Clayton route. Other “Regens” with NCB bodies lasted until November 1962 having given 28 years service, albeit with a troubled number of early years until re-bodied in the forties. Happy days, these unique “Regens” with their wailing and humming sound will always remain etched in my mind.
Photographs and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
01/02/11 – 18:41
What a treat to see the 2 “Regen” Bradford trolleybuses, and thanks to Richard for the technical data concerning the circuit breakers and full cab rebuilding. It all goes to emphasise the points I made about the severe problems with these early EEC metal bodies, mentioned in my own “Regen” post. In their rebodied form, I spent hours travelling in them, and, like Richard, will never forget their distinctive wailing sound. Also of interest is the rear of the EEC bodied COG6. My recent article on English Electric Bus Bodies mentions the 1937 re-design, and the well rounded rear dome of this bus illustrates this very well. There were very few takers for this design. I can only think of TD5s at Barrow, and lowbridge “Regens” at Southend. Anyone know of any more? The previous design had a very upright dome as can be seen on the “new blue” AAK “Regen” to the left of 607. My home was about a mile and a Half from Duckworth Lane depot, shown here, and I was about five when the photo was taken!
John Whitaker
01/02/11 – 18:47
Fascinating submission. This is not the first one which mentions noisy trolleybuses, yet I cannot ever recall hearing more than the odd whine and swish from them, and I must have visited and travelled on them in some 10 towns which operated them. Any reason for the noise?. I must confess that noise would have given individuality to an otherwise usually rather bland form of travel. Even so, I was always impressed by their 0-60 acceleration and indeed used to ride on the last trolleybus from Croydon to Mitcham which went flat out across the common (about 60) silently, bar the singing of the poles/wires and the vibration from a far from new class of trolleys. On reflection, I wonder if I saw the girlfriend, who gave me this routine, for longer than I might, simply for the trolleybus experience!!
Chris Hebbron
02/02/11 – 06:14
Chris, I think the noise was generated by the double reduction gears in the rear axle differential that were straight cut teeth. Similar to tram motor gearing so a similar noise. I am pleased you found these Regens pictures interesting.
Richard Fieldhouse
05/02/11 – 16:07
Glasgow must have had very quiet trolleybuses. My dad can remember them being almost silent to pedestrians and they became known as ‘the silent death’. I hadn’t ever heard this mentioned anywhere else but reading Ken Houstin’s excellent ‘The Corporation Bus’ (Grosvenor House, £9.99 from Waterstones) lastnight I came across mention of one Dionne Warwick vs Glasgow Corporation. It seems the singer left the Glasgow Odeon after a concert using the back door on to West Nile Street. This being shrouded in thick fog, she didn’t hear or see a trolleybus and was struck by it and an out-of-court settlement smoothed things over!
Scott Anderson
29/04/11 – 06:49
One of the class lasted until 1965 having become trainer no. 060 in 1962. This was the former 597 with an NCB (mk2) body. I photographed it in this role outside Thornbury depot in July 1963. On withdrawal in 1965 it had achieved almost 31 years of service. No. 603 was repainted in the 1911 style livery to celebrate Bradford’s Golden Jubilee in 1961. According to Stanley King no. 603 attained 1 million miles in service on 24 April 1962.
Malcolm Wells
26/03/12 – 07:53
I have just put together a gallery to commemorate 40 years since the end of Bradford trolleybuses. This incorporates over 500 photos including a section on the ‘Regens’ which I hope will shed some new light on the issues they experienced. Richard Fieldhouse has given me some useful information which has helped to interpret the photos, a lot of which relate to the structure of the body. There is also route-by-route coverage. The gallery can be found at: //davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/ Hope you enjoy it!
David Beilby
26/03/12 – 13:21
David, the Bradford additions to your gallery are absolutely superb. Many thanks for your efforts, and particularly the EEC views, which to us Bradford enthusiasts are unbelievable. We would never have believed that such a wonderful archive even existed, let alone become available. The Regens have always been my main transport “love”, as I grew up with them, and have previously said on a 606 posting, they were “personal friends” in the way that true transport enthusiasts will readily understand.
John Whitaker
27/03/12 – 07:17
Thx, David B, for putting Bradford’s trolleybuses on your website. Interestingly, the range 597-632 is virtually identical to (2)16-(2)24 (and especially (2)24 in Portsmouth Corporation’s fleet. Bradford re-bodied them around the end of the war, but Pompey’s carried their original bodies until they were scrapped, mainly in the 1957-8 period. What was news to me were the five AEC ‘Q’ trolleybuses, presumably all with English Electric bodies, although whoever built the ‘Q’ (trolley)bus bodies, usually seemed to make them all look very similar. Bradford’s ‘Q’, 633, had a relatively short life (1934-1942). To withdraw a vehicle in mid-war would seem to indicate a really serious deficiency somewhere. The clue might lie with Southend’s ‘Q’ trolleybus No. 123, originally on hire from AEC Ltd., from 1934. It was rebuilt by Sunny Dawes in 1943 and again by Beale in 1945, finally being withdrawn in 1949. Intriguingly, Peter Gould’s website shows this vehicle as being a lowbridge example.
Chris Hebbron
27/03/12 – 15:47
Chris. Bradfords Regens were the first EEC metal framed trolleybus bodies. Like their BCN Leyland TD3 cousins, the bodies were literally shaken to pieces after 10 years, due to body weakness, cobbled streets, and the double reduction drive. EEC had learnt a few lessons by the time PCT received theirs, and there was a redesign in 1937, as exemplified by 635 etc in the BCPT fleet. the Q (“Queenie”, No 633) was sold to South Shields in 1942, where she ran until c.1950. She was non standard in Bradford, regarded as draughty, and there were problems with the front overhang. A MOWT directive instructed BCPT to sell earlier 6 wheelers, and 633, South Shields and Newcastle being the recipients in 1942, and 1945. Bradford had, of course, received 10 Sunbeam MF2s in 1942 under MOWT directive, which enabled these transactions to proceed. I refer to the “Joburghs”, 693-702. We could write paragraphs on the “Regens”, so I will leave it there!
John Whitaker
28/03/12 – 08:31
Thanks, John, for filling in the gaps. We tend to forget cobbled streets and the effect they had on vehicles of the time, and probably to a lesser extent now as well. I sometimes wonder if East End of London cobbles were a prime reason for London Transport’s chassisless bodies coming into service. Although one or two small orders had their weaknesses, most survived the punishment well, although a large maintenance workforce would have helped.
Chris Hebbron
28/03/12 – 18:23
It has always amazed me Chris, that the LPTB chassisless trolleys performed as well as they did, and that the concept was not followed up apart from, I suppose, the RM input. Interesting point! Re. Bradford’s Q trolley, I think an identical, or near identical body was fitted to the Halifax Motorbus Q. Have a look on David’s site. Most Q motorbuses had MCW bodies as did Bradford’s. As you say, Southend’s EEC Q was lowbridge, as were the earlier 661Ts! What a fascinating fleet that was! re. Portsmouth, I am assuming that their EE bodied 5 bay AEC 661T trolleys were metal framed, as I always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they were. The earlier 6bay EEC bodies, and their 6 wheel equivalents were definitely composite, as the BCPT ones, delivered from November 1934, were definitely the first trolleys from EEC with metal framing.The Burnley C and N Titans were their first all metal motorbus bodies, and caused horrendous problems, as has been stated before. What a great hobby interest we share!!
John Whitaker
02/12/14 – 16:14
I always thought these Bradford Corporation AEC 661Ts 597 to 632 (built 1934/35) with double-reduction differential rear axle drives were unique. This belief was wrong as I have now found details in the recently published Portsmouth Trolleybus book by David R H Bowler that their AEC 661Ts 16 to 24 were also fitted with double-reduction drives and also made a loud noise when running. These Portsmouth trolleybuses with English Electric bodies were built in 1935 and followed the Bradford order and were similar in appearance. By 1936 I believe a worm drive with stronger bearings had emerged from AEC, no doubt due to London Transport influence, and future orders by Bradford and Portsmouth were for AEC 661Ts with worm drives which were much quieter in their operation.
Richard Fieldhouse
03/12/14 – 05:39
Nice to hear from you again, Richard. If you go to ‘More Pages’ on this website, then Old Bus Sounds, the first item is a Portsmouth trolleybus of the later type, but still with a noisy rear axle, albeit because it was worn, perhaps, near the end of its days! It’s certainly not a silent one! I confess that I never heard one of the 16-24 type, to my knowledge. They didn’t possess battery power movement and were usually relegated to peak time workings and were scrapped earlier than would otherwise have been the case. They also had a neglected air about them, with faded paintwork. Sad, because I always thought they had the most attractive bodies of all of Pompey’s trolleybus fleet.
Chris Hebbron
03/12/14 – 10:26
Many thanks Chris for your kind words and advice on the Bus Sound section for the sound of a Portsmouth AEC 661T/Craven trolleybus. I believe the General Manager Mr Ben Hall of Portsmouth was very wise to specify at a late stage Battery Traction availability for the large AEC 661T/Craven order. With the damage due to bombing during World War II, the trolleybuses in Portsmouth were still able to operate by using temporary turning points on battery power. Regarding trolleybus noise, this was also common in Bradford with some of their AEC 661Ts with worn worm drives adding to the “music”. It made every trolleybus seem to be a character. Interestingly the Karrier E4s (677 to 692; built 1938) used to make a more growling noise even when newly overhauled. Perhaps these were the bass section.
