United Automobile Services 1964 Bristol SUL4A ECW B36F
The Bristol SU series had a limited following amongst THC Companies. This example is in Ripon Bus Station in July 1968 about to set out on the lengthy run to Masham. I would imagine the Albion 4cyl engine would be quite noisy although probably not as bad as the Gardner 4LK as fitted to the earlier SC series.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
24/11/14 – 06:44
The SU series had the same gearbox as the earlier SC model and thus parts of the sound were similar on both models. Yes, the Albion Engine was noisy! The interior of the bus version was unusual in having inward facing seats over all four wheels. The Western National coach versions had normal forward facing seats throughout. I remember riding on one or two of these buses on Ripon Market Day services, and I also once spent a day riding on Western National SU’s on various routes centred on Bridport. However I was most familiar with West Yorkshire’s SU models, working from Grassington outstation on service 72 between Grassington and Ilkley, which covered several miles of single-track roads around Appletreewick, and also passed through the narrow arch at Bolton Abbey. I was lucky enough to ride on an SU at this years Kingsbridge Running Day, which brought back happy memories.
Don McKeown
24/11/14 – 06:44
The geographical area covered by United was vast, and obviously not every type of vehicle would be based at every depot. If any of the depots which ran services into Newcastle had any, they must have been used for local services as I cant ever remember seeing any of this type in the City.
Ronnie Hoye
24/11/14 – 09:42
Don I was at Ilkley depot in 1960/1 and worked on the Grassington service (which was 75 in those days). It was a lovely route as you say, but roadwise dreadful with dry stone walls, no kerbs or verges, Bolton Abbey Arch, Barden bridge, and hordes of motorists and others towing large caravans – many such drivers seemingly with not the vaguest idea of the dimensions of their vehicles. The famous West Yorkshire Bristol L/ECW saloon SG 103, converted by the Company to forward entrance OPO, was the basic performer on the full length weekday journeys on the route for many years. Very happy days indeed !!
Chris Youhill
24/11/14 – 17:04
Chris, many years later I would be a regular driver on what was by this time the 76 running between Skipton and Grassington via Bolton Abbey, covering the one time Ribble route from Skipton to Bolton Abbey and part of the original West Yorkshire route. Sadly by this time Leyland Nationals were in use on the service, but the scenery and the roads and bridges were still the same. Happy days indeed!
Don McKeown
24/11/14 – 17:05
The Bristol SU was noisy. The afternoon school special to Eldwick from Bingley Secondary Modern & Technical School was operated by a bus from the Keighley-Bingley via Morton service. Invariably this would be a Bristol SUL – from KSMA 1-4 or SMP 17. My over-riding memory of them is that the ride was hard and the engine extremely noisy. Mind you, what I’d give to ride on one today!
Kevin Hey
25/11/14 – 07:12
Don, not to digress too far, but during my time at Ilkley service 76 was my all time favourite – five hours a round trip – Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate, Wetherby, Tadcaster – shared by Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate and Wetherby depots. There was, however, one phenomenal outing for Grassington crews who used the Skipton depot bus for one round trip with, I think, a 71 from Skipton to Grassington before and after – or maybe they rode passenger to and from Grassington – its a long time ago now !!
Picture here of dear old SG 103 – a rare treat for passengers to share first hand the glorious symphony of the Gardner 5LW, and no excess fare either !! Apologies for diverging from the United topic, but this is in a similar vein I feel.
Chris Youhill
25/11/14 – 07:13
Western/Southern National were by far the biggest users of the SU, taking 133 of the 181 built. By contrast, 323 examples of the SC4LK were produced, but none of these went to Southern/Western National. I drove the ex Western National SUL4A buses 318/347/355/417 EDV and the coach bodied 269 KTA when they were owned by Tillingbourne of Chilworth, near Guildford, between 1972 and 1975. As I (now somewhat shakily) recall, the gearbox was certainly a David Brown unit, but the gear selector positions were more logical than those of the SC4LK, examples of which I also drove for Tillingbourne. Some sources say that this was a synchromesh gearbox. It was not; it was constant mesh. The four cylinder Albion engine of 4.1 litres was effectively 2/3 of the Leyland six cylinder O375 engine as used in the Tiger Cub, and it was not noted for its reliability in the contemporary Nimbus. It developed 72 bhp at 2,200 rpm, rather more than the 57 bhp at 2,100 rpm of the 3.8 litres Gardner 4LK in the SC, and the SU was decidedly more lively in performance than its lightweight Bristol forebear. It also felt more solid than the Nimbus, and was quite pleasant to drive. A rather careworn 417 EDV is shown on the rural road between Colgate and Roffey Corner, near Horsham, very shortly before it was withdrawn in June 1975. The windscreen of the coach bodywork on 269 KTA had a distinct “vee” shape, and this gave severe reflection problems in the cab from the saloon lighting during hours of darkness. Sister vehicle 270 KTA has been preserved as shown in this link:- //upload.wikimedia.org/_Western_National_420_270KTA
Roger Cox
25/11/14 – 08:51
Ah, Roffey Corner, Roger; shades of Basil Williams’ Hants and Sussex empire!
Chris Hebbron
25/11/14 – 17:40
The service from Grassington to Ilkley is now run by Pride of the Dales using Optare Solos which fit through the Bolton Abbey arch comfortably. Grassington depot is now a postal sorting office and the car park boasts a small bus station. Some 30 years ago I was travelling between Appletreewick and Grassington when I met a WYRCC RESL on a school journey coming the other way we passed with inches to spare in a passing place, I never knew until then how many rivets ECW put in a bus! Even further back in the mists of time in the sixties I once caught the bus from Grassington to Kettlewell on this occasion the bus was packed as it was market day. The bus was a LS and carried a very vintage guard presumably from Grassington depot. Happy days.
Chris Hough
26/11/14 – 17:07
Many of the Western and Southern National SUs worked on Guernsey for a number of years following withdrawal on the mainland.
Chris Hough
26/11/14 – 18:00
As a known SU fan I’m glad so many are preserved including one in Colin Billington’s collection which is preserved in Guernsey Delta Tours livery. One of my pictures of this can be seen at https://www.flickr.com/photos/one although I prefer SUS and one of these is shown at https://www.flickr.com/photos/two
Ken Jones
27/11/14 – 15:05
The SU was designed to meet a requirement for small buses at the start of the 1960s by Western/Southern National to replace rebodied pre-war Bristol L types. Unfortunately, by that time all the other Tilling companies with such a requirement (Lincolnshire, Crosville and Eastern Counties, which had not generally rebodied their pre-war saloons) had re-equipped with the Bristol SC4LK in the mid 1950s. As a result, Western/Southern National took 133 out of the 181 SUs built, and the balance went in only small numbers (often 5 or 6) to other Tilling Group companies. Of these, West Yorkshire had the largest number, taking 18, but these were then scattered around the depots – for example the allocation on 1 January 1965, the first day that all 18 were in service, was Grassington (1); Harrogate (2); Ilkley (1); Keighley (2); Malton (2); Pateley Bridge (2); Skipton (1) and York (1 + 6 York-West Yorkshire). This guaranteed that the type was regarded as an “oddity” at every depot, and we all know what drivers think of oddities…. I know that at York, drivers admitted to using the (fairly inadequate) brakes more than necessary so that they were able to book it off after the morning peak, for the brakes to be adjusted. The Western/Southern National drivers HAD to accept them, by virtue of the quantity in the fleet, and so no doubt they learned how best to drive them, and how to get the best out of them. As one of the small, elite band of SU owners and drivers in 2014 I can confirm that on the level (and downhill!) they have a respectable turn of speed. On a suitable road or Motorway a steady 50-55 mph can be maintained all day long, making long distance rallying enjoyable. Hills are more of a problem; the small engine itself isn’t the whole story, though, as the David Brown gearbox has an unfortunately large gap between 3rd and 4th gear, which guarantees that once down to 3rd gear it remains in that, at 25 mph, until the top of the hill is reached! Like Ken I am an unashamed SU fan and wouldn’t change mine for anything else.
Trevor Leach
27/11/14 – 16:13
Ken says he prefers the shorter SUS model. The Bristol Omnibus Co. had nine of them – in three batches, and here is their former 301 (862 RAE), a SUS4A with ECW B30F body, one of three new in 1962. Withdrawn in 1971 it passed to North’s, the dealer, of Sherburn-in-Elmet in Yorkshire at whose premises it is pictured here in 1972. It then saw service with Primrose Valley Coaches of Filey and later Phillips of Shiptonthorpe with whom it lasted until around 1983. It then passed to a Barnsley breaker, but was reprieved and after a few more owners it was last reported as preserved by Mike Ellis of Stroud – 301’s original allocation when new.
John Stringer
28/11/14 – 06:36
Thanks for the SUS pictures [Trevor hope you and your wife are well]- I don’t know if 862 RAE has been out recently – I last saw it in 2012. There’s an article from a few years ago [with pictures] at www.focustransport.org.uk/
Ken Jones
15/07/21 – 06:45
I always loved United Autos buses, moving to Leeds in 1962 didn’t dampen my ardour, in fact it increased. On my visits to Middlesbrough from where I had moved, I was in awe of their vehicles and you can imagine my glee when I used often to travel on a United vehicle in the shape of the X99 service to get there from Leeds.
United Automobile Services 1955 Bristol LD6B ECW H33/25R
Not many of these deep radiator versions made shame really I quite liked them. This photo was taken at Scarborough on the round about by the railway station.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The original deep radiator versions of the Lodekka were indeed attractive machines but after the first 18 months or so of production (around late 1955) the first body modifications began with the shortening of the radiator cowl (compare with the picture of United FS6B L108 here). The deep radiator cowls were known as ‘long apron’ types.
United Automobile Services 1964 Bristol Lodekka FLF6B ECW H38/32F
I am not sure if the Lodekka actually had a version number i.e. I, II, III as the Regent III, V for example if any body knows please let me know. I did like these front entrance Lodekkas, the three things I remember most is the low step to get on, how brightly light the interior was at night but best of all was the whine of the engine, being used to AEC and Leylands at home the Bristol or Gardner engines were very different.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The best United engine noises of all were the final batch of Bristol FLF Lodekkas delivered between January and May 1968. These F-registered machines were fitted with Gardner engines and were the first non-Bristol engined buses in the fleet. A Bristol-type whine was accompanied by a very powerful growl as I remember – very impressive. Also, this final batch were even brighter inside than normal. The interior panelling was finished in all-over cream formica as opposed to the normal dark green which made them feel light, spacious and very modern. They were lovely vehicles to ride on!
Incidentally, you may like to know that I am the author of a book on United’s buses entitled “One And Two Halves To The Clock”, which is my own story of growing up as a lad in the 1960s in Redcar, North Yorkshire – a seaside town deep in United territory!
Colin Plucknett
Although Lodekkas did not have version numbers as such (ie: Series I, II, III etc), they were split into two broad types – namely LD and F-Series models. The original LD (Low-height Double-decker) series had a slightly sunken lower deck gangway, with the pairs of seats either side of it in effect raised above it. A longer version (LDL) made its debut in 1957, but only a handful were built. As the Lodekka developed over the years, a revised model was introduced. Known as the F (Flat floor) Series, this had as the name implied, a flat floor throughout the lower deck. It was available in four variants: FS (Flat floor, Standard/Short chassis); FL (Flat Floor, Long chassis); FSF and FLF (as for FS and FL, but with the second F denoting a forward entrance chassis). Interestingly, the Bristol BVW engine fitted to many a Lodekka from 1958 onwards did have version numbers. As the BVW evolved, engines became known as Series I, II and III, and could be identified by the serial number stamped on the engine plate. BVW1xxx denoted Series I, BVW2xxx were Series II, and BVWs numbered 3xxx/4xxx etc were Series III.
Brendan Smith
There was a final variation to the FLF series: the very impressive 31ft FLF6LX models, with semi-automatic gearboxes, as operated by Eastern National. Several of them started life with coach seating for the X10 Southend-London Victoria service. In their heyday, around 24 of the 40 plus that ENOC had were allocated to the long 151/251 working from Southend to North London (Wood Green): a 2hr 40min one way trip! Also, one or two were regularly featured on the “On the Buses” TV show. As a Conductor, these were wonderful vehicles to work on, especially on the long haul routes. I also believe the Scottish Bus Group had some as well. They’re the only two operators I know that used them. Any others, anyone?
Mike Harper
05/06/11 – 14:28
Eastern National’s FLF coaches certainly were real stunners Mike, and the 31-footers were handsome machines in either bus or coach form. As you rightly say, several of ENOCs Wood Green FLF6LXs featured in ‘On the Buses’ and were to many of us the real stars of the show. (I wonder if Reg Varney and Doris Hare realised just how privileged they were to work alongside such venerable icons!). At least AEV811F and AVW399F took part in the series masquerading as buses of the Luxton & District Traction Company – and wasn’t it a quirk of fate that the ‘AVW’ registration was on a Gardner-powered bus? You are correct in saying that only ENOC and the Scottish Bus Group took delivery of 31-footers – sadly for some reason they didn’t find favour anywhere else. Relating to the semi-automatic FLFs, I was fortunate enough to ride on Leyland 0.600 engined Hants & Dorset example when on holiday with friends in the 1970s. I had not realised the FLF had either feature until it started up and set off. The pronounced gear whine puzzled me, and it was only in later years I found out this was due to extra gearing in the transmission line. On manual gearbox Lodekkas the gearbox was mounted directly behind the engine, with the drive being taken downwards and slightly to the offside by the design of the gearbox. However, as the semi-auto ‘box was of a bulkier nature, this unit was mounted on the offside of the chassis. The drive was taken downwards and to the offside from the back of the flywheel to the gearbox, using a train of gears – hence the unusual whine emitted. It certainly added a certain character!
United Automobile Services 1956 Bristol Lodekka LD6B ECW H33/27RD
Quite a few lists have United fleet numbers starting with a “B” which I presume denotes Bristol. But as one can plainly see in this photo there is no “B” just L13 does anybody know if United changed there fleet numbering system after 1966. This shot was taken July 1966 at Scarborough bus station.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
In answer to your question about United fleet renumbering regarding the excellent photo of the United LD6B: You are quite right – the B did stand for Bristol. Most of the fleet was renumbered from 1st November 1964 when the B was dropped from vehicle classifications. The company decided it was superfluous since the fleet was almost entirely Bristol by then!
Colin Plucknett
What a fine shot of what must surely be the perfect model of LD Lodekka. No Cave-Brown-Cave radiator intakes to spoil the curvaceous lines, the later cab door with straight rather than curved edge to the lower window glass, a three aperture destination box, and the ‘whiskers’ above the radiator grille. Even the front wheels are set at a jaunty angle! Very nice condition for a ten year old bus and a credit to United. (Good old Charlie Bullock will have driven it a few times around Scarborough in his day, no doubt).
United Automobile Services 1962 Bristol Lodekka FS6B ECW H33/27R
This photo was taken in the middle of July 1966 and is the Scarborough North Bay “Corner Cafe” terminus of several routes. This photo apart from being a nearly decent shot of a “Short Lodekka” is a flash back to when an English seaside resort had every thing going for it, doesnâ’t it look busy. I do like the Ford Anglia on the roundabout. In the mornings on the way to our chalet (No 99) I used to buy a pound of pea pods from the fruit and veg shop at the other side of the road from this bus stop and boy did they taste good, nice and sweet, and in the evening on the way back to the our B&B I would have a waffle with cream and raspberry jam from the waffle shop around the corner from this view, those were the days. (Sorry about the over long sentence but got carried away in nostalgia).
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The Bristol FS in the picture is one of a small batch of five delivered in February and March 1962 for use on Scarborough town services only. The FS was a very rare beast in United colours – there were only seven in the entire fleet of around 1,200 buses. The Scarborough vehicles were also unusual – in an age of power-operated jacknife doors and front entrances – in having open rear platforms. I believe an agreement with Scarborough Town Council ensured the buses never strayed from the resort right up until their withdrawal some 14 years later. I also believe the vehicles operated mainly in the summer season and were garaged for half the year, so they must have had fairly low mileages. For this reason, it’s a shame one never made it to preservation. I understand they all disappeared at the end of the 1976 summer season although one example may have stayed on as a driver-trainer until as late as 1978.
If anyone has any more information about these buses, or any more pictures, I would be very interested!!!
Dorsetcol
I remember the other two Bristol Lodekka FS6Bs L55/56 both these had rear doors from new I think, they operated out of Darlington on the Stockton 21 or Hartlepool 24 service. The Bishop Auckland route was the preserve of the first Bristol Lodekka LD6Bs L1-5. L56 went to West Yorkshire in exchange for a front entrance model which united was by then operating.
Paul Fraser
When West Yorkshire and United did their swap the ex United bus took the FSFs number in the West Yorkshire fleet DX82. I may be wrong but I think West Yorkshire were the only BTSC fleet to end up with a wholly rear entrance double deck fleet until the advent of the VR in 1969.
Chris Hough
From when I first glimpsed West Yorkshire’s FSF6B DX82 in Bingley as a child, it always remained one of my favourite buses in the fleet. I had never seen a front-entrance double-decker before, so this was something special. Imagine the dismay when WY exchanged it for an ‘ordinary’ FS6B in 1967! Interestingly, the FSF lost its ‘T’ style destination layout on transfer to United for one of their side by side destination/route number display. Unusually, the ex-United FS retained its full three-aperture display after overhaul by West Yorkshire, rather than being converted to ‘T’ type layout. In later years the FS had the intermediate part of its destination display overpainted red. Such a quick fix seemed very un-West Yorkshirelike at the time! Apart from West Yorkshire, I seem to recall that Red & White was the only other BTC/THC company to operate solely rear-entrance Lodekkas. However, whereas West Yorkshire became so once their solitary FSF had been exchanged, Red & White had only rear entrance Lodekkas from the outset, including a batch of rare 30ft FL Lodekkas.
Brendan Smith
Brendan I remember while on holiday in Bournemouth in the 1960s being very impressed indeed by the small batch of Hants & Dorset 30 foot rear entrance Lodekkas. Just momentarily they at first looked odd but quickly the superb lines began to appeal greatly. If there was any criticism of the standard short Lodekka, and I struggle to think of any, it was they had a slight “chunky” appearance from the side.
Chris Youhill
11/02/11 – 06:54
I remember the Lodekkas in York as the main stay of the York West Yorkshire fleet when I was a kid in the 60s and early 70s.
Jim Plant
07/11/11 – 07:49
I lived on Bradford Road, Riddlesden, when DX82 arrived on the scene in 1960, based in Leeds and operating route 31 to Keighley. Sometimes when I took a trip to Bingley, I would wait for it, having seen it heading into Keighley 20 minutes earlier. I was not impressed with the design, since it provided no more seats than an LD or FS and had cramped accommodation for the conductor. Apparently, Company management thought the same. I was delivering evening papers nearby in 1961 when DX82 was rammed from behind at the Airedale Heifer stop by DX67 on the X67 Bradford-Keighley Limited Stop express. Damage was quite extensive, and two passengers were trapped in the lower deck rear seats, which wouldn’t have happened on any other WY double-decker! I bicycled home to get my camera, but I have no idea what happened to the photo I took. The Company was fined for having defective brakes on DX67.
Martin S
18/12/12 – 07:58
Good website, filled me with nostalgia. Remember when I’d walk the dog in Hartlepool and down at the bus station/depot there was a big sign on the wall, United a National Bus Company. I’d get Explorer tickets, managed as far north as Berwick, south as Bridlington [although it was an East Yorkshire in one direction] and west as Carlisle on United [with the odd Northern thrown in on joint runs].
Kevan Hubbard
18/12/12 – 10:11
The ex United Lodekka 456 LHN, which as mentioned above became DX 82 when it arrived with West Yorkshire, it was for a while after October 1967 allocated to the Otley depot taken over from Samuel Ledgard. Just one of those fascinating coincidences but thereafter it could often be seen on service 34 Leeds – Otley – Ilkley, the frequent hunting ground previously of the “real” DX 82 before it moved North east.
Chris Youhill
22/12/14 – 09:31
Am I right in thinking, what I have read, that the Lodekkas West Yorkshire got were FS code, and West Yorkshire got them they coded them as DX.
Stephen
22/12/14 – 12:31
Stephen, West Yorkshire operated LD and FS-type Lodekkas. The letters were Bristol chassis designations denoting (LD) Lowheight Double-decker and (FS) Flat-floor Standard length chassis. The West Yorkshire code you refer to relates to the alpha-numeric fleetnumbering system used by WY between 1954 and 1971, which used classification letters followed by numbers. For example ‘DB’ indicated Double-deck, Bristol engine; ‘SGL’ Single-deck, Gardner engine, Long chassis; ‘CUG’ Coach, Underfloor Gardner engine etc. Where the ‘DX’ classification came in relates to West Yorkshire taking delivery of Bristol’s second Lodekka prototype in 1950, (chassis number LDX002) – Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co having taken the first one in 1949. West Yorkshire numbered its vehicle 822, but in the 1954 renumbering scheme it became DX1 (Double-deck eXperimental). The next Lodekka to arrive was a pre-production prototype and this became DX2. From then on ‘DX’ became the classification for all future WY Lodekkas. West Yorkshire operated 238 Lodekkas (or should that be 239 if you count the TWO DX82s?), all but three having Bristol engines. The trio that ‘broke ranks’ had Gardner engines, these being DX3/4 and 48. DX3/4 were delivered new in 1954 with 6LW units, whereas DX48 originally entered service in 1956 with a Bristol AVW engine, but was converted to Gardner 6LX power in 1958/59. Interestingly, in 1956 DX3 was fitted experimentally with a Shorrocks-supercharged Gardner 5LW engine, but was converted back to 6LW engine some six months later. Despite their Gardner engines, the trio were not classified as DXG as might have been expected, but remained inobtrusively as simply ‘DX’ bless ’em.
United Automobile Services 1965 Bristol Lodekka FLF6B ECW H38/32F
The last time I posted one of my own photographs on site was the 14th of November 2010 which is three and a half years ago, now that was a very good run I think, thank you to all the contributors for keeping the site going. So as it as gone a little quiet it is back to my mostly Northern shots, the first being one of my favourite vehicles.
Seen in Scarborough bus station within the first few weeks of service a fine example of the Bristol Lodekka. These Lodekkas were powered by the six cylinder Bristol engine and boy could they go, especially down Burniston Road when on the Scholes Park Rd to Scarborough route I’m afraid I cannot remember the route number.
(After my beloved AECs) What could be better than a Bristol powered FLF? Well an FLF6B in Scarborough, of course. Some of my best holidays, and indeed some of my best days out, have been in Scarborough. (Only bettered by Whitby and Robin Hoods Bay – which are strangely now in the Borough of Scarborough). Much as I love East Yorkshire, Scarborough is in the North Riding and in United country. [I don’t care if you think I’m a bolshy old man. Traditional boundries do mean something.]
David Oldfield
15/05/14 – 07:28
Wonderful shot. These vehicles always looked so solid and well built. The Tilling Red ones always looked much better to me than the green fleets. The thing so fascinating about old bus photographs is the incidental stuff in the photos. The ‘Black & White Minstrel Show’ so politically incorrect by today’s standards and Roses Malton Ales. Bought out and killed off by Tetleys who in turn have been bought out and virtually killed off by Carlsberg!
Philip Halstead
15/05/14 – 09:49
Yes, Philip. You jogged a memory. The only time I ever saw the Black & White Minstrels live was at Scarborough – as was the only time I saw Tommy Cooper live. [Just like that!] Could be they looked solid and well built because they were, and I agree with you about Tilling Red.
David Oldfield
15/05/14 – 11:37
This is indeed a lovely shot of a handsome bus, set off nicely by that red livery. As a former West Yorkshire employee, I must confess to thinking that United’s livery had a slight edge over WY’s from the mid-sixties, when the latter started repainting its buses without the black edging between the red and cream. United retained the black edging and to me their livery then looked just ‘a cut above’. United’s later change to red-painted wheels rather than traditional black endeared me to the fleet even more. That said, both companies definitely maintained their own character, and as an enthusiast I still remained very loyal to West Yorkshire. David, I too must be a member (part time) of the ‘Bolshy Club’, as I know exactly what you mean about the importance of traditional boundaries. A friend who has lived in Newton-le-Willows all his life, still writes Lancashire on his address in correspondence. Newton is officially in Merseyside, but as he says, “it’s nowhere near the docks”. At least the proud folk of East Yorkshire won their battle to have the county name reinstated, instead of the ridiculous ‘North Humberside’ inflicted in 1974. To many of us the roads around Scarborough and the rest of North Yorkshire just do not look right with turquoise buses traversing them instead of red ones, and neither do the roads in Co. Durham and Northumberland. Sorry folks, rant over!
Brendan Smith
15/05/14 – 17:46
Living in the bubble that was Sheffield with AECs (and Leylands) it was always a refreshing delight to go into Tilling land during holidays. Favourites were United and Lincolnshire but I had a soft spot for West Yorkshire when I happened that way – even more so when London journeys linked me up with WYRCC RELH6G coaches. I also remember a journey on the X43 (?) from Leeds to Scarborough by RE. I then sampled the delights of Western/Southern National when we holidayed in the West Country, as well as Bristol on the way down. […..and of course that bastion of AEC, Devon General.] Oh well, nostalgia is a sign of old age. Nurse? Nurse?
David Oldfield
15/05/14 – 17:46
It’s interesting that Brendan notes distinguishing features between United’s and West Yorkshire’s liveries, even though both were Tilling red/cream. I felt the same in the south in the early 60’s, with Wilts and Dorset and Thames Valley. Both were Tilling red, but there was something in “the look” which usually made a slight difference to the eye – Wilts and Dorset had cast fleet number plates, Thames Valley had painted numbers, for example. I felt the same about green Tilling companies, such as Hants & Dorset and Southern/Western National. As a teenager enthusiast, I sometimes felt that Tilling companies could be rather boring because of the similarities. But once NBC corporate livery appeared, boring took on a new definition – ’nuff said!
Michael Hampton
16/05/14 – 06:53
According to Bus Lists on the web, full production records exist for 1714 of these Bristol’s of which 164 were for United. However, another 300 or so were built where only partial records exist, and some of them went to United, so its not unreasonable to assume that the actual number they had would have been nearer the 200 mark. Several United depots ran services into Newcastle, and they always looked well cared for. I cant speak for other depots, but I know that the coaches based at Whitley Bay depot were always washed by hand.
Ronnie Hoye
17/05/14 – 16:03
A fine picture of a well-loved marque. I think the route number from Scholes Park Road at that time would be the 116 cross-town service from Scalby Village to Eastfield Estate. This stopped at Scholes Park Road end on Burniston Road as no service down to Scalby Mills existed at the time. The Bristol FLF6B did in fact have a second coming in Scarborough in 1977. Chronic bus shortages in the United fleet for the Summer season in 1976 had seen the purchase of a variety of buses from other operators and Scarborough was blessed with some very decrepit MW6G’s from Crosville which thankfully only lasted a few months in to 1977 pending despatch to Barnsley. The shortages continued into 1977 and in June of that year United acquired four FLF6B’s from East Midland which became 545-548 in the fleet. Of these, Scarborough certainly had 546-8 – the PSV Circle records the withdrawal dates as 1/79 for 546 and later in 1979 for 547-8. My office window at the time faced onto Westborough (before pedestrianisation) and it was very obvious when 547 or 548 was dragging itself up the hill from the harbour terminus on service 106 to the Hospital which was a regular turn for these buses together with other town services. There was a bus stop right outside the office and therefore a variety of aural delights during the day. It was a rather incongruous situation whereby the delightful drone of an FLF could be followed by the raucous racket of a Mark 1 Leyland National! At the time, I lived at Cloughton Village some five miles out of Scarborough and on many occasions had need to use United service 114 into Scarborough. Up to 1978, this was a decent fast service due to an old agreement that out of town services could not pick up inbound within the Borough boundary which effectively meant picking up at Cloughton, Burniston and Scalby Villages was allowed but as soon the boundary was reached, ie Hackness Road end approx., then it was non-stop into Scarborough centre which was excellent. After the agreement was re-negotiated, it was much much slower due to many stops in the densely populated area within the borough.
My photo is of 547 ANN 566B at Scarborough Westwood Coach Park in October 1979 shortly before withdrawal.
John Darwent
17/05/14 – 16:26
Thanks John my holidays in Scarborough were in from the mid fifties to the mid sixties. Every year we had a chalet on the North Bay at Scarborough, number 99 actually, and stay in a B&B in Langdale Rd, we had two ways to get back at night. Walk to the Corner Cafe (Waffle Shop) then up through Peasholm Park, Columbus Ravine to Langdale Rd. Or up the back of the chalet over the little train line on to Scholes Park Rd, walk to the top for the bus which was parked waiting in Scholes Park Rd, it was parked about 100 yds from the junction with Burniston Rd opposite a small static caravan site, not sure how it turned round, it just seemed to be always there waiting. We would go by bus in a round about way as far as Dean Rd (Fish and Chips) then down Langdale Rd
Peter
17/05/14 – 19:10
Nice shot of 547 John. It looks in tidy condition, and it must have seemed a real shame that it was soon to be withdrawn. The bus appears to have a one-track route number blind. Was this a standard Mansfield District (its original owner) fitment when new?
Brendan Smith
18/05/14 – 06:31
547 certainly was tidy Brendan but I suppose nobody wanted slow old front engined buses by then despite its condition. I read somewhere that three-track destination numbers were introduced by Midland General on deliveries in 1966 and later, so 547 being a 1964 bus was probably equipped with original fitments said to be two track. Letters seemed to be used as prefixes (the first track) with two numbers on the second track. I’m wondering whether 547 is actually displaying I16 as a makeshift compilation. Destination displays on Mansfield District buses seems to vary somewhat between two and three apertures and perhaps somebody can throw some light on this. Peter, I’m wondering if there was a seasonal service from Scholes Park Road in the 50’s/60’s in view of what you say. My time in Scarborough started in the mid 1970’s and the earliest timetable I have is from 1984 from which I have quoted. Any buses going down Scholes Park Road could reverse at Scholes Park Avenue, so what you say is probably right. If Gordon England or Gordon Green reads this, they may be able to enlighten us! Present day services by Scarborough & District Motor Services (EYMS) operate as 3/3A and travel down Scalby Mills Road, more less parallel to Scholes Park Road, to the Sea Life Centre and then returning to Scarborough via the ‘The Sands’ residential development built on the site of the old ‘Corner Cafe’. Sadly, the aerial ride has long gone but the North Bay Railway lives on and the Open Air Theatre has recently been restored at a cost of umpteen million. Swifts Fish and Chips is on the Dean Road/Trafalgar Road corner, about 100 yards past Langdale Road- maybe the same site as you recall.
John Darwent
18/05/14 – 07:12
I have been on Google Earth, you are right about the Fish and Chip shop John but I was wrong about Scholes Park Rd it was actually Scalby Mills Rd. At the time that large Ivanhoe Pub was the static caravan site that was called the Ivanhoe Caravan site I think there was also a shop there as well but that fronted onto Burniston Rd. Sorry about that, that’s old age for you
Peter
19/05/14 – 07:16
All Midland General’s Lodekkas had two track blinds although the earliest ones were retro fitted. As John D says though, from around 1966, three track blinds began to appear which was surprising because MGO had no requirement for them apart from a few works services which had Wxx numbers. ANN 566B was a Mansfield District bus and they all had one track blinds until around 1966. MDT’s services were numbered between 1 and 219 but only about forty of the numbers were used and the blinds carried just those plus a few extras for possible future use. Both companies had via blinds until 1966 when the T layout became standard but no via apertures were ever panelled over, those which had them carried full displays at all times, until the NBC came along, that is!
Chris Barker
19/05/14 – 07:17
I know exactly what you mean Michael when you say about certain former Tilling companies having their own ‘look’. To the casual observer, the BTC/THC ‘nationalised image’ was generally that of Bristol-ECW buses finished in either a red or green livery with one or two cream bands, or in the case of coaches, cream with red or green relief. However, looking a little deeper there were many livery variations such as Brighton, Hove & District’s red with cream window surrounds and roof, Wilts & Dorset’s red, black and cream dual purpose vehicles, and South Midland’s distinctive application of maroon and cream to its coaches. The ex-Balfour Beatty companies wore a livery of blue with cream window surrounds (Midland General and Notts & Derby) or the green version (Mansfield District). Cheltenham District not only retained its distinguished maroon and cream, but also its unusual layout. Turning to coaches, Bristol OC had its Bristol-Greyhound cream and red vehicles with distinctive lettering and logo, and who could forget the cream and black coaches of Crosville? Then there were the ‘classics’ such as Western/Southern National’s Royal Blue fleet, and the equally well-regarded cream and olive green coaches of United. In later years came Eastern National’s famous cream and green Lodekka coaches. Add to the above all the differences in destination layouts, style of fleetname and fleetnumbers, and it can be observed that the BTC companies were not perhaps as rigid in nature as some people believed. It surely provided more interest to the enthusiast than any of the big privatised groups do today.
Brendan Smith
19/05/14 – 07:17
Re 547’s number blind – as John states, from the 1966 deliveries, Mansfield District (green) and Midland General/Notts and Derby (blue) standardised on 3 track number blinds (presumably at the behest of ECW,as MGO/NDT didn’t need three track number blinds until 1978 when the letter/number route numbers were renumbered into the Trent system). Prior to 1966,Lodekkas new to Mansfield District had single track number blinds, as per 547; Lodekkas new to MGO/NDT had two track number blinds. The number partly visible on 547 looks like 106, which is probably an original MDT blind – the range of numbers used in Mansfield, 101 upwards, was not dissimilar to those used in Scarborough.
Bob Gell
19/05/14 – 07:18
With regard to the ex-East Midland (ex-Mansfield District) No.547, Mansfield District did for a long time have single track route number blinds. The number of routes they operated was fairly limited, with three distinct tranches of numbers – single digit, three digit (100 series) and three digit (200 series). Midland General and Notts & Derby of the same group, also used single track blinds for many years, but later went over to two or three track (not sure which). Their route numbering system was one letter followed by a single digit number, (i.e. A1-A9, B1-B9 etc.) This gave them plenty of scope for expansion – as far as I remember, they never got beyond the G series, though there were a few express or excursion operations that did use other letters. And of course, there was the odd man out – the route 44, from Derby to Chesterfield, operated jointly with Trent and East Midland (the only service that took Midland General buses into Derby).
……and of course it be came more complicated when MGO & MDT swapped vehicles, as they often did. For a short period of deliveries MGO had 2 tracks and when such examples were moved over to the MDT fleet, as in 1969 with this 1961 FS6G, there was the need for special linen so that a 2 track blind could show 3 digits.
Berisford Jones
19/05/14 – 15:37
John D, Flattered as I am I regret that I cannot add to the discussion about the turning arrangements at Scholes Park Road. My childhood memories were of Whitby. However I can claim some connections in the area – my Uncle & Aunt lived in Ryecroft Road (just off Scholes Park Road and later my cousin on Scholes Park Road itself. In later life after marriage and a transition from transport to equestrian interests I have been a regular attender and exhibitor at Burniston Show which has occupied a number of sites in the locality.
Gordon Green
20/05/14 – 16:36
When, as a boy, I stayed with relatives in Newby in the summer, via Northstead the 116 was worked by single deckers usually an “L”. It terminated at Five Lane Ends and reversed around the corner to the stop. I don’t think it was a cross-town service then. I have a Summer 1951 timetable for the town services (100/1/2/3/4/5/6/07/9/10/13). The 113 ran between the Railway Station and Scholes Park Road – on reaching Burniston Road. The return route is just given as the reverse of the outward route. the 109 was the seafront service whilst the 110 was the Oliver’s Mount service.
Malcolm Wells
22/05/14 – 07:21
I commented earlier on the subtle differences between the supposedly same red or green liveries borne by the Tilling companies’ buses. And, of course, there were all those other variations which Brendan and others have referred to. I then stated that the NBC red or green was just plain boring. I still think that’s generally true compared with what went before, but I have to say that John’s picture of United 547 does indeed look smart. I guess it’s because the paintwork still has a shine to it, and of course the ECW bodied FLF also exudes a certain quality. However, whether they were in smart or faded red, there was little to distinguish a United FLF from, say, a Hants and Dorset FLF in NBC days. Uniformity reigned supreme!
Michael Hampton
22/05/14 – 07:23
When at college and university I spent the summers of 1966, 7 and 8 as a conductor in Scarborough. On the 113 at Scholes Pk Road the conductor was meant to use a whistle to signal to the driver when reversing. The snag was he couldn’t hear it so we always used the bell! Some drivers reversed back onto the main road, but most reversed from the main road. The service had three buses providing a 10 minute service. I still have my staff timetable for 1968 – There was a 10 min service from 07:00(9:30 on sun) – 23:10. For some reason the 23:00 terminated at Northstead. All the theatres had special journeys and I remember the Futurist had the Black and Whites at least two of the years I was in United uniform!
Mr Anon
22/05/14 – 07:24
These recollections of Scarborough and the town services, and especially the sea front service with those full fronted coaches have brought back some very pleasant memories of childhood holidays. I took this shot of BBL61 (LHN 936) opposite Corner Cafe in July of 1961 when I was just thirteen, with an old Agfa camera that my father acquired in Germany during the war. I well remember some of the town services turning round at a roundabout opposite the main harbour, and the buses threading their way through some of the narrow shopping streets leading away from the sea front and up out of the town. Some of the best holidays ever.
Dave Careless
26/05/14 – 09:33
Great picture Dave! The destination blind shows ‘The Mere’ which many will recall is where one could sail on the Hispaniola and dig for dubloons on Treasure Island. One of the ‘pirates’ did have only one leg – perhaps a war injury – a prerequisite for such a job? My Dad or Uncle knew ‘Ben Gunn’ on the island! For many years the buses on services 100 and 101 showed ‘Edgehill Road’ as the destination which meant little or nothing to holidaymakers. I recall ‘The Mere’ starting to appear on the buses at some stage. In the 1960s another uncle and auntie lived in a bungalow on Mere Lane overlooking The Mere, a smart property then but absolutely fantastic now, so we regularly travelled on the buses to visit. The last time I looked The Mere was devoid of all the little buildings/kiosks for boat hire, ice creams etc. There was once an area for water ski-ing.
David Slater
26/05/14 – 11:25
Regarding the route numbers in question, I have a 1962 faretable in which the 113 was a local service from Railway Station to Burniston Road (Scholes Park Road). The 116 was a cross-town route from Eastfield Estate (Overdale) to Newby (Four Lane Ends), but there were no short distance local fares for stages between Steamer Moor Road and Cleveland Avenue (presumably the protected area)
David Todd
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
27/05/14 – 14:03
Fascinating recollections of Scarborough town services back in the day; I think my favourite United route in the area though was the 111, which ran from Scarborough, through Filey, and on to Bridlington if I remember rightly. I can’t even think about it without suddenly smelling fish and chips, or seeing a revolving rack of ‘saucy’ seaside postcards.
Dave Careless
I am not a bus aficionado, just a casual visitor to this site. I remember Eastern National having some ‘stretched’ versions of the FLF6B or Lodekka. The rear side windows (quarterlights?) were wider, making the bus about a foot longer. However, I have not seen any photographs of them on this site. They were a very fast bus.
Martin Robinson
26/09/14 – 05:43
David C – you are right about the 111 service via Speeton and Hunmanby. It did indeed run to Bridlington where it terminated in its own little United bus station on the Promenade (east side almost opposite the superb EYMS station) – well, I say bus station but it was actually a generous forecourt in front of the booking/enquiry office, and is now the outside seating for a small cafe. Like you, fish and chips, saucy postcards, and Joyland Amusements are my treasured memories of Bridlington in the 1940s/50s where I stayed often with Grandma and Aunty Doris – now where are the Kleenex tissues (other brands are available).
United Automobile Services 1950 Bristol LL5G ECW B39R
This was one of the first buses to appear on this website and I did not research into it as well as I could of done. So I have rewritten and reposted it. | Click here to see the repost. |
United Automobile Services 1957 Bristol LL5G ECW B39C
These nice looking centre entrance buses did the Scarborough Sea Front Service from The Corner Cafe in the North Bay to The Spa in the South Bay. I think they were actually rebodied half cab single deckers as NHN 128. I think the bodies were mid 50s and the chassis were from the 30s but they had an easy life on the Sea Front Service. If you know different please put me right any info appreciated.
Update I have found out that the body was built in 1957 and was a B39C and it was a rebuild on an old 1946/7 chassis. there is a photo here of a very sad view of 992 CHN.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
These fine buses were originally built in 1946/7 as Bristol L5Gs. They were lengthened to 30ft (thus becoming LL5G) and rebodied by ECW in 1957, with a centre entrance version of the old ‘Queen Mary’ style of coach body last produced in 1952. They were fitted with 39 bus seats, and I believe replaced pre-war Leyland Tigers on the Scarborough sea front service. They were as you say, nice looking vehicles and they must have come as a pleasant surprise to locals and tourists alike, as the buses simply exuded charm and more than a hint of class. It is amazing to think that those curvaceous bodies were all hand built by craftsmen. Their elegance leaves many modern vehicle designs in the shade. How did they manage without computer-aided design and mass-production techniques? Very well indeed by the looks of it!
Brendan Smith
26/08/11 – 07:27
During the 1950’s and early 1960’s our family summer holidays were mostly in Scarborough, staying in the North Bay. Never mind roundabouts, donkey rides and amusement arcades, the highlight of my holiday would be being taken for a ride from Corner Cafe to Aquarium Top and back on one of these special Bristols. As a child, for a few years my ultimate ambition in life was to move to Scarborough and drive these buses on the 109 Seafront Service. The reality would probably have been very different, and I suspect that though a steady job, it could have been rather tedious. But I was a child. It was very sad when one day a few years later whilst out cycling, I called at Jackson’s scrapyard in Bradford and viewed with dismay the dismembered remains of one of these splendid machines in the blue livery of Clugston’s, the contractor. I was surprised to see that behind the ‘frowning’ front grille panel there was still the complete original Bristol L radiator shell and grille and bonnet. It’s an old cliche I know, but if only one had survived into preservation……..
John Stringer
21/03/13 – 06:36
Talking of sad pictures of United’s special sea front Bristol L Types, here is 996 CHN, obviously at the end of its days in the junk yard in Northumberland. I think this one ended its days with Bedlington and District. Evidently the only thing wanted from this was its engine.
David Rhodes
22/03/13 – 17:00
After a period of no open toppers in Scarborough they were reintroduced by United using Bristol VRS. In the years following de-regulation several companies have run on the route East Yorkshire have used Routemasters Shoreline Suncruisers currently use Metrobuses in the eighties Applebys used a motley collection of older types including an ex Bristol Lodekka and ex Chester Fleetlines a pair of Southend Fleetlines a Park Royal bodied Fleetline from Sheffield and an ex Plymouth Atlantean Scarboro & District (East Yorks) use Alexander bodies Scanias currently
United Automobile Services 1950 Bristol LL6B ECW B39R
This bus has been on this website before it was one of the first and I did not research into it as well as I could of done, but as this bus is in the process of being preserved I think I should do it justice. This bus entered service with United in 1951 as a LL5G – B39R with a fleet number of BG460. All that coding meant it was classed as a long version of a Bristol L with bus seating and livery, with a 7.0 litre 5 cylinder Gardner engine. In 1953 (I had 1963 here but from a comment below by David Hudson I was ten years out) it would appear it was re-engined with a Bristol 8.1 litre 6 cylinder engine the seating was reduced to 33 and the class changed to duel purpose making it a LL6B – DP33R with a fleet number of BBE1. At this time I think it would of been re-painted to Cream and Red more or less a reversal of the above shot which was the colour scheme for United “Express” vehicles. In 1961 it seems it was re-classed back to a bus I am not sure if the seating was increased back to 39 though (see David Hudson’s comment), the fleet number was also changed to BB51 but later that year the the first “B” which stood for Bristol was dropped. The bus must have been repainted back to Red and Cream as the above photo was taken after 1964. Two years later 1966 it was withdrawn from service with United passing to W Norths Limited, Sherburn-in-Elmet (dealer) between Leeds and York in 1967. Fortunately it was bought by a contractor as a staff bus and not scrapped, I am not sure how long it was with the contractor but eventually it was bought by a private individual for preservation.
Looking along the side of B51, an extra strip of aluminium beading beneath the windows (curving down towards the front) can be seen. This was presumably added by United as extra brightwork, when it was upgraded to express standard and repainted cream and red. On being demoted back to bus duties, and resuming its original red and cream livery, it looks like the beading was simply painted over. West Yorkshire Road Car gave the same treatment to its LS5G express vehicles in later life, when converting them to buses. Shame on both counts that the beading couldn’t have been just left polished as nature intended.
Brendan Smith
When I was a lad one holiday the family went on service 43 from Leeds to Scarborough. I think the bus was a Lodekka. On our return we joined a long queue at Westwood to return to Leeds. An inspector announced that a bus was going to depart but would be nonstop to Seacroft and Vicar Lane only. The bus came on to the stand and was a West Yorkshire L. The driver must have had a date with a lady as we literally flew to Leeds. Although this was donkey’s years ago it has stuck in my mind. Later in my career I drove Bristol Ks at Southend corporation which were on hire from Eastern National.
Philip Carlton
I’m building a 4mm scale layout based in the Northeast and would like a model of this bus (preferably in United livery) Does anybody out there know of a source? Thanks, Trevor Elliot, Bellingham WA USA
As the present owner of NHN 128, just a few comments on its history. Vehicle converted to dual purpose in 1953, using seats from earlier L6Bs. Fitted with Bristol engine at this time. 1961 re-seated to B39R using seats from earlier vehicles with wooden grab rails. Sold to Buxted Chickens (Ross Poultry) seeing service until 1976. Awaiting restoration following fire damage in 1980s
David Hudson
In answer to Trevor Elliot, Corgi OOC made that model (I have two) I bought them off e-bay, I think I paid about £8.00 each plus P+P
Jimmy
18/12/12 – 07:53
In the early 50’s I was a driver at Scarborough depot seasonal only, but later transferred to Redcar on a permanent basis. I spent many an hour driving up and down Scarborough seafront, but my favourite run was service 58 Scarborough to Whitby and Middlesbrough. The fleet numbers I remember were BB,BBE,BH,BG. My memory isn’t too good now,but if you think I can be of any help don’t hesitate to ask me.
United Automobile Services 1952 Bristol KSW6B ECW H32/28R
Following all the recent enthusiastic comment regarding the Western National KS5G photo, I thought I would submit this, taken from a recently rediscovered early slide of mine. United’s BH27 (originally BBH27), PHN 809, a KSW6B, is seen operating the 109 Seafront Service around North Marine Drive in Scarborough in 1966, previously the sole preserve of the dedicated ‘Queen Mary’ Bristol LWL’s. New in 1952, this fine machine was withdrawn the following year, and after being stored for a further year or so was sold to North’s, the dealer, who sold it for scrap.
Ah, Scarborough 1966 – my last year at school. We had a week’s geography field course in Scarborough. Stayed at a hotel on Castle Road, not far from the Court House where all the United town services started and terminated. I seem to remember many of them were in the hands of KSWs. We had some free time on the Sunday afternoon and three of us set off on a KSW out to Cloughton, then walked up the closed but still intact Whitby railway line as far as Stainton Dale station. Very picturesque and great fun.
Stephen Ford
29/03/12 – 11:44
As anyone who’s been on this site for long enough will know, I’m an AEC man. If you pay attention, you’ll also know I’m a Bristol/Bristol man. Many happy holidays, as a kid, in Scarborough confirmed this and Bristol engined KSWs like this (along with similar engined Lodekkas) are part of the happy memories. I can remember days like this along the Marine Drive – and also the sea fret which was like a cloak around you!
David Oldfield
29/03/12 – 17:57
I would imagine that the area covered by United must have made them ‘Geographically at least’ one of the biggest operators in the Tilling Group. Their territory included parts of the Scottish Border Region, the whole of Northumberland and Durham, parts of Cumberland and Westmoreland and a huge chunk of North Yorkshire, in addition, they had a lot of what would now be called ‘Inter City Express Routes’ including the legendary twice daily Tyne Tees Thames service. Apart from any vehicles that came into the fleet as a result of takeovers, they were all HN Darlington registrations. I don’t have a clue how many vehicles they had, but they were always immaculate and would put many an operator to shame
Ronnie Hoye
29/03/12 – 17:57
What a nostalgic shot this is, it looks to be a very bracing day on the Scarborough sea front. This one has special meaning for me as well, as I took some of my first bus photographs with the family Agfa at the Corner Cafe while on holiday in Scarborough in the summer of 1961. I ended up with quite a few rear end views, some better than others, simply because I was quite young and shy at the time, and thus a bit reluctant to point the camera at a bus load of passengers staring at me through the windows! Consequently I still have in my collection a rather nice shot of the back end of NHN 149, waiting to depart the North Sands terminus on local service 108 to Holbeck Road. Happy days.
Dave Careless
03/02/13 – 06:58
Brighton in the early 50s had a lot of B H & District Bristol buses and if anyone from Brighton remembers the route 14, on that route was a Bristol bus that seemed to have more power than its contemporise. The 14 served a cross country route from East Brighton to Hove. This particular bus must have been supercharged or something similar. I think the registration began with HAP…
