ex Guernseybus 1950 Leyland RTL Park Royal H29/23F
A couple of weeks back we had a question on the ‘Q&As’ page regarding front entrance ex London Transport Leyland RTLs. In response Bob Gell contributed the above shots which were taken at the North Weald Rally, 6 July 2008 and the following information of an ex Guernseybus converted RTL. As can be seen it is now preserved and back to carrying its original London Transport fleet number of RTL 1004 but not quite the original livery. Bob is led to believe that KYY 647 was converted by Guernseybus in their own workshops, for use as back up on inclement days to their open top RTs one of which was was RT 2494 registration KXW 123 with a Weymann body; it carried Guernsey registration number 54636. Guernseybus may have moved the entrance to the front, which I will come back to later, but as can be seen from the insert shot the staircase was only moved towards the centre of the bus and the stairs went rearwards. The subject of the original query, JXN 366, the former RTL 43, new to London Transport in 1949 joined the A1 Services fleet in February 1958, owned by T & E Docherty of Irvine. A photo of that vehicle can be seen here. It is thought to have been converted ‘in house’ in this case, the staircase was moved to the front as per normal front entrance vehicles. In 1971, it passed to Duff, a fellow member of A1 Services, who operated it until December 1973. It is now in preservation. Two questions arise out of this posting there is always at least one, firstly, KYY 647 carried two registrations 47312 and 995 during its time on Guernsey does anyone know why. Secondly whilst researching into these conversions other sites and documentation described the conversion of them to forward entrance not front entrance, Bob thinks that could spark a whole debate on its own, I think he could be right.
Photographs and Information contributed by Bob Gell
By common consent, Front entrance means just that – at the front, by the driver. Forward entrance means as far forward as possible – ie just behind the front axle (and engine) of a standard half-cab (or full-fronted) vehicle.
David Oldfield
I am guilty of using ‘front’ entrance for such vehicles but reading supports the use of ‘forward’ entrance. It seems that front entrance should be used for more modern vehicles, such as the Atlantean, Fleetline, etc. I think some confusion arises where fleet lists show anything not centre or rear entrance as a code ‘F’.
Scott Anderson
Not one, but two forward-entrance RTL’s from different sources. These were complete news to me. Thanks for the interesting post.
Chris Hebbron
The first picture gives the impression that the main object of the modification may have been one man operation – i.e. angled window on left hand side of cab, as was done to various half-cab single deckers by sundry operators.
Stephen Ford
I had quite a few enquirers regarding what the conversion of the rear entrance looked like, well, Bob obliged with the following shot.
Peter
Wow – art deco rounded glass at the rear – very expensive, I’d have thought. Better to see an off-centre rear view than full rear one, because the large rear pane of glass downstairs would be off-centre and the overall look quite asymmetric. Also the offside window ahead of the rounded one seems higher than its counterpart this side and the other side windows. In general, though, a neat job.
Chris Hebbron
Hi Chris I think the higher window you refer to is the new Emergency Door see the little shot inserted in the text.
Spencer
Ah Yes, Spencer, I missed the little photo: the door isn’t so clear on the upper photos. Thanks for clarifying.
Chris Hebbron
06/07/11 – 07:21
The team of inhouse coachbuilders at the then operating Guernseybus were tasked with relocating the rear entrance forward in order to allow the company to continue to operate its entire fleet with just a driver onboard – which was standard practice on the island. As for the registration number changes, between 47312 and 995, it’s mainly to do with a relatively lucrative market for cherished number plates in Guernsey, which has numeric only registrations. The number 995 may well have been sold (or indeed bought as an investment) by Guernseybus during the double deckers tenure in the island. 47312 would, as a registration number have very little value.
Neil (Guernsey)
31/03/13 – 07:52
You have a photo of my guernsey bus I restored this bus in 1984 the reg on it was JPA 81V as this was the year it came over from the island it was sold for £65 and then it cost £110 pounds on the fery. I got Swansea to give me a reg for it’s year 1958 it was then LSV 748. Hope you find this of use.
John Sergeant
14/09/14 – 07:21
RTL 1004 was the Lambeth Safety Bus in the 1970. The Abbots Langley Transport Circle bought it from a scape yard in Essex near Ongar. We had the bus for a number of years. We had to sell the bus on when we lost our parking space, and was unable to find another close to our base in Abbots Langley Herts’.
Stephen Norman
23/01/17 – 07:30
I use to own this bus wondered where it ended up and what is it doing now.
A. H. Kearsey 1949 Leyland 7RT RTL Park Royal H30/26R
The London Transport RTL class, known to LT as the 7RT, appeared from 1948, and consisted of a modified Titan PD2 chassis frame to accord with features of the AEC Regent RT, enabling the interchangeability of bodywork between the two types. Though fitted with the standard O600 engine, the gearbox was the AEC preselective epicyclic of the RT class, a transmission option that was not a standard offering by Leyland to operators elsewhere. A total of 1631 RTL buses was made, though, as with the 4826 of the RT class, that number never ran together in service. The majority of RTLs had Park Royal bodies, though 32 were originally fitted with Weymann and 500 with Metro Cammell bodywork. To these were added 500 of the mechanically similar eight feet wide RTW class, all of which had Metro Cammell bodies. Under the LT Aldenham overhaul system, bodywork became swapped about between chassis on passing through the works, and tracing individual bodies to chassis during their London Transport lifetimes is complicated. With characteristic profligacy, LT went ahead with developing its new wonder, the Routemaster, from 1954, despite the fact that large numbers of brand new RT and RTL buses were then languishing in store without ever having turned a wheel in revenue earning service. Four years later these stored buses eventually took to the road in 1958, the year before the first production Routemasters began appearing in volume, and they then began displacing the perfectly sound earlier RTLs of 1948/49 after a service lifetime of a mere nine to eleven years, during which full chassis/body overhauls had been undertaken. These withdrawn RTLs, in fine mechanical and body condition, soon found favour with operators at home and abroad (many went to Ceylon) where they rendered years of reliable service. The former RTL 133, KGK 797, delivered to London Transport in February 1949, was sold in January 1959, despite having received a full Aldenham overhaul in 1956, when its original body was replaced with another, also by Park Royal. It was then bought by A. H. Kearsey of Cheltenham, together with RTLs 138/149, KGK 802/813, and all remained with that operator when it was taken over by Marchant’s Coaches in January 1968. In the August 1970 picture above KGK 797, fleet number 62, in Kearsey’s sombre grey and blue livery, is seen (if I recollect correctly, though hesitantly after half a century) in Bishop’s Cleeve. Marchant’s continued to serve this area right up to October 2019 when all its bus routes were withdrawn following issues with Gloucestershire County Council over funding. More Kearsey pictures may be found here:- www.flickr.com/photos/tags/kearsey/
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
08/03/20 – 12:29
A minor correction to the details given here by Roger. The 500 Leyland 6RT, RTW class, had Leyland bodies and not Metro Cammell ones.
John Kaye
09/03/20 – 06:32
You’re right John. My error.
Roger Cox
09/03/20 – 06:33
Did some also have Cravens bodies?
Roger Ward
10/03/20 – 06:03
I think that there were some Saunders Roe bodied RT’s as well?
Andrew Charles
10/03/20 – 06:06
The Cravens bodies, as with the Saunders bodies, were on the RT class, A.E.C. Regent III. RT1402-1521 had Cravens bodies, whilst RT1152-1401 and RT4218-4267 had Saunders bodies.
John Kaye
11/03/20 – 06:25
The bus has generous destination panels, yet, Kearsey left the bus completely ignore every one of them! Marchant’s Coaches, Cheltenham, are still in fine fettle, with some 7 local school bus services, private hire and mystery tours, and regular day-out tours to places like Legoland. Nice to mention a well-established family concern not in trouble or to announce its demise.
Chris Hebbron
12/03/20 – 06:07
……though they recently pulled out of local service operation, citing too much bureaucracy amongst other issues. Until, I think, the 1980s, they had an amazing network of stage routes around the Cotswolds, worked from a base at Aldsworth, the timings of which they seemed to regard as a state secrets – the recently dropped work around Cheltenham had come from other sources, notably replacing the estimable Castleways when that concern closed.
Phil Drake
15/03/20 – 06:47
Those painted-over destination boxes bothered me as well. I grew up in a place and an era when the buses I saw displayed half a dozen via points on the front, back and nearside, and showed the destination front and back, and even now TfL buses have some route information on the front. So I’m baffled – how did Kearsey’s passengers know where the RTL was going? Was it only ever on one route, which was known to everybody who was likely to use it, or did the conductor shout from the platform “We’re only going to the Town Hall today, love, but we can drop you off at the shops if you like? No sir, we don’t go to the station, not on a Wednesday!”?
Don Davis
Like it, Don; good point well made. Mind you, there were good displays, but confusing ones, too. Portsmouth Corporation, in its middle years, had double-lettered routes. ‘A’ one way and ‘B’ coming back. there was never mention anywhere of this and folk would wait for an ‘A’ return journey and ignore the ‘B,s going by! And this at a seaside resort with lots of holidaymakers. I grew up with suffix letters on route numbers in London, although they never went very high,, but Portsmouth had one route, 143, which went from ‘A’ to ‘F’. ‘A’ was the whole route, then the higher the suffix the shorter the route. Much higher than ‘F’ and the route travelled would have been about a hundred yards! Incidentally, Cheltenham, which historically only had numbered routes, now has some with letters. I’m surprised that Gloucestershire County Council, which controls bus route numbers, hasn’t forced a change.
Chris Hebbron
16/03/20 – 06:50
The mention by Phil Drake of Castleways of Winchcombe reminded me of this photo taken in November 1973 of their Leopard PSU3B/4 Plaxton Panorama C49F, apparently named Countess, new in November 1972 looking absolutely stunning in their dark blue and silver grey livery. Taken in Cheltenhams somewhat bleak bus station amongst the autumn leaves.
David Lennard
17/03/20 – 07:07
My delight with Castleways was seeing their Temsa Safari coach, which looked absolutely gorgeous in the black with gold band livery. (Photo by R Sharman). On one occasion, I took their coach on their route to Stratford-upon-Avon. Cheltenham Bus Station, although the late 1940s reinforced concrete shelters have now been replaced by light metal glazed ones, is as bleak, draughty and lacking any comforts as it ever was. Not even a toilet. Perhaps the bus is too uncomfortably reminding them of the Great Unwashed!
Chris Hebbron
18/03/20 – 07:02
They used single deckers on their routes, and the double deckers on schools/factories and as duplicates on stage services. They were well kept up until Marchants took over. They lost the ladies college work and other work to Castleways and started to go down hill. Marchants was always to be avoided if possible. Its only in the past 20/30 years that Marchants have improved.
A number of years ago Cheltenham and Gloucester used the same numbers, so country routes were adjusted to 3 numbers, and some renumbered, Cheltenham went to letters, Red and White Forest routes renumbered.
Mike
19/03/20 – 06:39
Thx, Mike for that info.
Chris Hebbron
19/03/20 – 06:41
Chris Hebbron mentions Portsmouth’s confusing route numbers. Another seaside resort determined to baffle holidaymakers was Southport. Most routes were cross-town, and the route number went with the destination, so if you went from the town centre to Woodvale on an 11, you would return on a 10 bound for Preston New Road. Then when there was a timetable change, the routes would swap partners, and the 11 to Woodvale might return as a 2 to Marshfield!
Peter Williamson
19/03/20 – 06:52
Middlesbrough Corporation Transport used all the letters A – Z. That all changed when TRTB, MCT and Stockton were merged into TMT. Then they moved to numbers, as TRTB and Stockton used numbers. The “O” Bus or “0” ZERO was a joint Stockton/Middlesbrough Bus. 46 and 47 routes later. United then had to add a “2” so the 63 became the 263 to avoid confusion. Then it became Cleveland Transit, a disaster. Then Thatcher scrapped the buses!
Mr Anon
20/03/20 – 06:22
Castleways livery may have looked Black but was Trafalgar Blue.
Tim Presley
21/03/20 – 06:45
As my wife will testify, with a tut and a sigh, Tim, (“Do you think this colour suits me?”) I’m colour blind!
Chris Hebbron
21/03/20 – 06:47
Morecambe managed without route numbers until the sixties as did Ledgard until the very end of the company.
Chris Hough
21/03/20 – 06:50
Checked to see if my comment came and then thought no that’s not right it’s Wellington Blue.
Doncaster Corporation 1969 Leyland Royal Tiger Cub Roe B45D
A very rare Leyland, for these shores at any rate, was the Royal Tiger Cub. Designed as an export chassis it sold in respectable numbers from Finland to New Zealand, even (when supplied as a kit of running gear) incorporated in DAB (Danish Automobile Building) integrals. The only chassis sold on the home market were for Doncaster Corporation who took twenty 33ft Roe bodied examples in two batches of ten in 1965 (type RTC1/1) and 1968 (type RTC1/2). Although all were 33ft two door examples the body style differed between the two batches, the Roe bodywork on the second batch were similar to that supplied to Leeds and Huddersfield on their AEC Swifts. The photo shows preserved number 55 which is an RTC1/2 of the second batch.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Andrew Charles
The Royal Tiger Cub was very much an anomaly. The Leopard – which became a classic – first arrived as a special for Sheffield (Corporation) Transport Department. Bodied as Weymann Fanfare coaches in summer 1959, the first six predated the Scottish Show model by several months and were recorded in Leyland books as PSUC1 (Tiger Cub) specials. By the time of the official launch in Glasgow later in the year, the Leopard L2/Plaxton of Milburn Motors introduced a new name and series. The Leopard was, therefore, a Tiger Cub but with 0.600 engine and Titan gearbox. The only noticeable difference between the Royal Tiger Cub and Leopard was the 33′ length. Another case of micro managing slight differences in specification. The first Doncaster RTC1 had “Real” Roe bodies – as seen just behind No 55 in the above shot. As stated, 55 had Roe bodywork similar to Leeds, Huddersfield (and Sheffield) Swifts – on Park Royal frames.
David Oldfield
Just to offer photographic assistance to the comment made by one of your contributors about the body style of the first batch of Royal Tiger Cubs bought by DCT. See below for a better shot of the vehicle he refers to (which was partially hidden behind the subject of the original photo). In fact the first batch of RTC were not of this style Roe body but more like the batch prior to this which were on AEC Reliance chassis. I don’t know whether those bodies had any Park Royal input but there were similarities in design features with Yorkshire Traction’s Park Royal Tiger Cubs, trim etc was different but there were similarities in appearance. A significant difference was the absence of the traditional Roe ‘Trade rail’ below the windows although comparison with the Roe bodied ex Felix Reliance parked next to 33 shows that the trade rail was by no means a standard feature.
North Western Road Car Co 1955 Leyland Tiger Cub PCUC1/1 Weymann B44F
FDB 586 a Leyland Tiger Cub was new to North Western RCC in 1955. It was converted, along with the rest of the batch to OMO in 1958/9, as denoted by the ‘A’ suffix after the fleet number. 586 is shown here (in rather a grubby state) working the 1 hour 36 minute duration Service 65 from Ashbourne to Buxton. The picture was taken outside the Devonshire Arms Hotel in the picturesque Derbyshire village of Hartington, a view which has changed little over the years. There was still over 50 minutes to go before it reaches the end of the journey in Buxton Market Place. It was withdrawn in 1968, and passed to Worth’s Motor Service Enstone, Oxfordshire.
Stephen Howarth collection
Taken from their website “Worth’s were established in 1922 in the village of Enstone by Thomas (Dickie) Edmund Worth who started, like a lot of Bus and Coach Companies of that time by repairing motor bikes, bicycles and lawn mowers. He later progressed to running Ford Model T taxis’, and then on to Char-a-Bancs running day trips to the coast.” This year the company will be celebrating 90 years in business and continues to be run by the Worth family with the motto still being well known as:- “For a rattling good ride”. There website can be found at www.worthscoaches.co.uk FDB 586 is shown here outside the Garage in Enstone.
Stephen Howarth collection
I have included a modern day picture of the premises, and as can be seen the garage building, unlike the fleet, has altered little.
Photographs and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
25/09/12 – 16:45
Purely from the “observer” point of view, Worth’s has always struck me as being one of the better operators. Others, of course, may feel or know otherwise! As for North Western, what can one say other than “R.I.P.”?
Pete Davies
25/09/12 – 18:57
Pete: yes and yes.
David Oldfield
26/09/12 – 07:07
The No. 65 doesn’t look overburdened with passengers does it? And to think, until the late 50s this route was paralleled by a railway line, whose stations, on the whole, were nowhere near the villages they purported to serve!
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Pennine Motor Services 1953 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 Leyland B44F
This photo first appeared on the “Do You Know” page of this website and thanks go to David Oldfield and Dave Farrier for the following information. Pennine Motor Services were and still are a small independent operating in the lower part of the Yorkshire Dales, They originally had their depot in the small village of Gargrave which is about 5 miles north west of Skipton. That depot has now been demolished to make way for an housing estate and they currently use the old Ribble Motor Services depot which is at the bottom of the Coach Street car park in Skipton (see Tony Youngs comment below). They were always a Leyland operator with a mix of buses and coaches more often than not bought brand new. In later years, PSU3 Leopard/Willowbrook Duel Purposes were bought, before deregulation. That was the beginning of the end when they went over to second-hand Leyland Nationals. Their current fleet is 13 step-entry Dennis Darts.
In the early seventies Pennine expanded by taking over Ezra Laycock of Barnoldswick. Prior to the advent of the Nationals the fleet was made up of Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopards bought from a variety of sources. They also for a very brief time had a pair of Leyland Swifts which were quickly sold and they are one of a handful of operators who do not have any low floor buses in their fleet.
Chris Hough
Coach Street car park building is now a Marks & Spencer store. Pennine Depot is now in another former Ribble Depot on Broughton Road Skipton.
David Clarke
Did I read somewhere recently that – 24 years after deregulation – Pennine is coming under attack on one of its routes (maybe Burnley)? Let’s hope it doesn’t spell the end for this operator.
Dave Towers
31/03/11 – 15:43
Pennine now have 3 low floor buses, Dennis Dart SLF Plaxton Pointer, ex-Bus Eireann, numbered D17 – D19. To correct information above, the Pennine depot in Skipton was near the High Street Car park on Jerry Croft, not Coach Street Car park which is on the other side of the town centre. The new Marks & Spencer food store is on the site of the former depot, accessed via Jerry Croft from the High Street. Pennine are indeed facing strong competition from Transdev who are now competing with the 215 between Skipton and Burnley via Earby and Barnoldswick. Pennine have a good reputation in Skipton and are part of the local scene. We can’t afford to lose them.
Tony Young
04/04/11 – 07:11
The Pennine depot is in the former Ribble depot at Broughton Road which was built by Old Ben Bus Services taken over by Ribble. Afterwards it became a textile Mill and then back to being a bus depot.
Philip Carlton
16/04/11 – 05:00
My recollection is that the current Pennine Depot in Skipton spent some time in use by a tyre and exhaust retailer after closure by Ribble.
Jonathan Cadwallader
14/06/11 – 08:52
I note with sadness that Norman Simpson, the leading light of Pennine Motors, passed away earlier this month. I worked at Craven District Council from its inception in 1974 until 1988, and public transport became part of my remit. Mr Simpson was, of course, one of my councillors too! We had an excellent working relationship, not least of all because of his innate courtesy, and his clear understanding of the respective (and respected) roles of elected members and salaried officers. And this was despite our being some way apart philosophically on the issue of the role of the public sector in public transport planning and support!
Richard Tulloch
19/07/11 – 17:14
I made a comment above, subsequently expanded on by Tony, about the competition from Transdev. Having a day off last week I decided to go and have a look for myself. I am originally from Lancaster and recall as a young spotter in the 1960s seeing Pennine buses in my home area, but I had never actually made a journey on one of them. Anyway, the situation is that Pennine run an hourly service to Burnley (215) whereas Transdev run two services (29/30) one via Earby and one via Barnoldswick, whereas the Pennine route covers both of these towns. The Transdev routes leave at XX:00 and XX:30 and the Pennine departs Skipton at XX:05. On my journey at 11:05 the driver issued 21 tickets and on the return at 13:25, 24 tickets, although most were for concessionaries. I would suggest that 3 journeys per hour is certainly “overbussed” but noted whilst in Burnley that Pennine also run extra 215s as short-workings from Burnley to Barnoldswick only; the one I saw leaving Burnley at 12:55 was completely empty. Presumably these extras are Pennine’s way of striking back. From Pennine’s timetable several of their buses actually terminated in the evening at Barnsoldswick so presumably they have a small garage/outstation there. Can anyone confirm?
Dave Towers
17/10/11 – 06:00
Before retiring I owned a radiator rebuilding business in Earby and was proud to have Norman Simpson of Pennine as a regular customer. My recollection was that they tended to buy well used Leyland coaches, rebuild them and put into service. This was of course very good for trade! They did indeed have a garage in Barnoldswick, Gas works Rd if I remember, big enough for about 4 vehicles, one coach stored there was a Royal Tiger about 1950, motor show exhibit, lots of chrome—I never saw it move. They also had a stop, outside I think at Settle—-I recall a drunk stealing a coach for a lift home one night. Not bus related, but Norman Simpson always favoured big Citroen cars.
Colin Newby
29/01/12 – 17:51
Superb machine. The photo looks like the work of the late great Bob Mack
Tony Greig
17/04/12 – 14:09
In reply to Colin, MTC 757 (the bus version) and MTD 235 (the coach version) were regular visitors to Lancaster. It’s MTD 235 which spent several years in store in the garage in Barnoldswick, and is now at Broughton Road. Sadly, in respect of both vehicles, my black and white prints are long gone.
Pete Davies
25/04/14 – 11:54
Very sadly Pennine will cease operations on 16th May 2014. This is a combination of Mainline competition on the Burnley route and low concession rate from NYCC on the busy 580 Skipton Giggleswick Route. This was a complete surprise as Pennine now have all but three Darts Low floor access and another one just purchased ready for painting. A very sad event after 88 years.
Chris Wright
25/04/14 – 14:27
Damnation. Aside from the social and business consequences of the closure, the countryside will lose one of the more unique liveries on the street scene.
Orla Nutting
20/05/14 – 08:37
The very last public journey was the 21:15 Skipton to Settle, operated by Dennis Dart D8 (KU52 RYG). Here’s a less than perfect shot taken just after it had been reversed into the small Settle depot. The vehicle on the left (D18, W948 ETW) had actually been back at depot for almost four hours, but D8’s driver made a point of switching on its lights for the benefit of the assembled enthusiasts. //s1318.photobucket.com/ Also shown is a daytime shot of the Settle depot, which, as can be seen, is for sale, as is the Barnoldswick depot. The Settle depot, particularly, strikes me as a potentially nice discreet home for a couple of preserved single deckers – 36-footers can be accommodated, but no bigger.
David Call
21/05/14 – 17:44
RIP – Pennine Motor Services.
Stephen Howarth
22/05/14 – 07:19
Indeed Stephen. Very sad.
David Oldfield
24/05/14 – 08:25
I’ve only just come back from a few days around the Yorkshire Dales, basing ourselves at Skipton. Only yesterday, a wet day, we passed a building and glimpsed the rear of two parked Pennine buses poking out. It was not convenient to stop, although I wished I’d been able to. Although I’m not good at colours, I thought they were orange and black and it looked a very passable livery. Sad indeed, as you all say.
Chris Hebbron
26/05/14 – 12:09
Re Philips Carlton’s comment of 4.4.11, according to the “Commercial Motor” of January 1st 1929, the original owner of Pennine’s Broughton Road garage was the “Old Bill” service owned by W. Wisemall not the Old Ben service.
Nigel Turner
26/05/14 – 13:56
Nigel, I don’t know anything really about the origins of the building, but in the 1960s the nearby filling station was definitely known as “Old Bill Motors.”
Chris Youhill
26/05/14 – 15:44
Having had a further look round the internet it seems that the owner of “Old Bill” was William Wiseman not Wisemall. The Commercial Motor stated that he was going to continue his existing haulage business. Pennine have now advertised the premises for rent at £40,000 per annum.
Nigel Turner
26/05/14 – 16:58
Reading the latest posts on the Pennine closure and “Old Bill”, reminded me that I had these photos of William Wiseman original garage and its later replacement both on Broughton Road, Skipton. Is this still the Pennine depot?Photographer unknown.
Mike Davies
26/05/14 – 17:51
Old Bill’s depot is nothing like the current Pennine depot however the house in the background looks very much like the second house in Gisburn Street which is by the side of the Pennine depot.
Nigel Turner
26/05/14 – 17:51
Another of Mikes shot if it helps.
Peter
27/05/14 – 06:49
With the aid of Google Maps, the second photo confirms the location, the houses in the background are in Marton Street and behind that is “Marton Mills” which seems to have lost a few stories but the chimney is still there.
Nigel Turner
27/05/14 – 06:50
I think you’d better ignore what I said above (20/5) about the Settle depot being suitable for housing two preserved single deckers – from what I’ve seen of the going rates for sale/letting, it would be unaffordable! It’s a nice little depot, though, all the same.
David Call
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
07/09/15 – 07:11
Such a shame that Pennine have stopped for good. I loved riding on their Dennis Plaxton buses. It’s been over a year since they ceased operations, but they are still missed. They were that extra bus that you got if it happened to come while you were waiting at the bus stop. They were buses you could depend on to get from A to B with no fuss. Sure they were a few drawbacks vs the more popular Transdev buses, but many more benefits. The main drawback of the bus service was the limited frequency of buses – only 1 an hour. Compare that to Transdev’s 8 an hour along the mainline route. I bet many avoided catching Pennine’s buses because if they bought a return ticket, they could only use it on Pennine’s buses which were too few for the popular route between Colne and Burnley. That is why it was mainly used by pensioners as they did not have to worry about fares. However the fares were cheaper on Pennine’s buses than Transdev’s for the same journey, so it was still probably cheaper to get a Pennine bus one way and a Transdev bus back, than get a Transdev return. Another thing is that it was a quicker journey than Transdev not just because the bus had fewer passengers, but also because the bus did not hang around for long at the bus station unlike Transdev. The buses were also far more punctual than Transdev’s. I can’t recall a single time when Pennine’s buses were late. Transdev’s buses are more often late than on-time. Sometimes they are terribly late for no apparent reason at quiet times. Sometimes the bus is at the bus station due to depart but the driver is nowhere to be seen! This never happened with Pennine. A few months after Pennine folded, Moving People came along but their buses are very infrequent. They run only a few a day. I’ve only been on one of their buses twice so far because I so rarely see them. They have started a new J12 service which passes Junction 12 of the M65 (but all the buses on the main road do so why they called it that there’s no point). It goes to Burnley but diverts at Casterton Avenue and goes past the hospital and rejoins the main road at Duke Bar. So Moving People are hardly a replacement for Pennine. They don’t run any buses to Barnoldswick or Skipton. So far there is still a gap that has not been filled by the departure of Pennine and I feel that gap will still be there for some time to come.
There has been some discussion on another posting about the former Leyland demonstrators, MTC 757 and MTD 235, the latter being still with Pennine and mentioned in the new PSV Circle listing on preserved buses. I have “bought” slides of these two, and I know when and where they were taken, but I’ve no idea of the photographers. MTC 757, the bus version, is seen in Malham in June 1964. MTD 235 is seen in Gargrave in September 1967. MTC 757 had a Brush bus body, while MTD 235 is quite clearly Leyland’s own. “The Dalesman Cafe” on the right of the lower shot was still thriving when I was last in Gargrave a few months ago!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
05/08/12 – 12:31
Wouldn’t you put the dates of these two the other way round? The bus looks remarkably modern and simple for 1950- even the peaked front dome (or is that a trick of the light?) Could it be a rebuild? On the other hand the Leyland (export?) body looks a bit 1940’s Detroit at the front, especially that chrome “dribble”.
Joe
05/08/12 – 14:11
Joe, it’s definitely a trick of the light – MTC 757 did not have a peaked dome, and was a very neat looking bus for the time. It was built in 1950, and acquired by Pennine in 1951. They withdrew it in 1967 and it is believed to have been scrapped. MTD 235 was the prototype for the Leyland Royal Tiger coach body, and as originally built it did not have the multi-windowed ‘lantern’ type windscreen arrangement seen here and familiar on all the production examples, though it must have been modified very early on, as all the photos I’ve seen of it with Pennine show it as it is here. I must rack my brain (quite difficult nowadays) and try to remember which book I have that shows it in its original form and report back. Don’t hold your breath !
John Stringer
05/08/12 – 14:34
I had – please note the past tense! – black and whites of both these vehicles, and taken at Lancaster Bus Station. MTC most certainly did not have a peaked front dome. I have a copy of the Pennine history by Donald Binns in collaboration with the operator, which has a photo of her on page 49. The caption includes “It was scrapped in August 1967 after 16 years service and with 825,000 miles on the clock”.
Pete Davies
05/08/12 – 14:35
The dates given in the posting would seem to be correct. MTC 757 was a Royal Tiger PSU1/13 with Brush B44F body built as a demonstrator in 1950, and bought by Simpson of Gargrave t/a Pennine in 1952. Brush ceased building psv bodies in 1952. MTD 235 was also a Leyland demonstrator, and it carried the standard Leyland 41 seat coach body for this model, though the chrome trim was adapted to meet customer choice, and some examples did not have the “swept under” front panelwork. This body continued to be available up to the time that Leyland closed its coachbuilding facilities in 1954. The PSU1/13 version of the Royal Tiger had the horizontal O.600 engine coupled with a four speed synchromesh gearbox and vacuum brakes.
Roger Cox
05/08/12 – 15:06
MTD 235 is still owned by Pennine and is kept at Barnoldswick and is worked on when time permits.
Philip Carlton
06/08/12 – 07:27
The Brush body was a nice design and must have been one of the very earliest on an underfloor engined chassis (apart from BMMO). Quite different to those supplied to Yorkshire Traction/Woollen. Presumably it was 7ft 6in wide?
Chris Barker
06/08/12 – 08:34
Chris, MTC and MTD were both to the usual 8ft width for underfloor engined vehicles of the time, so far as I am aware.
Pete Davies
11/08/12 – 07:23
Think 8′ was standard width for these underfloors. Although they still existed quite recently as a heavy engineering and railway manufacturer, Brush effectively became Willowbrook in bus terms. [Not sure who bought whom.] The next Royal Tigers for Tracky were Willowbrook – but built by the same men in the same factory.
David Oldfield
11/08/12 – 12:07
Several Royal Tigers were built to 7ft 6in width, it was offered by Leyland as an option. Hebble and Devon General had some Willowbrook bodied examples. Brush are still very much in business, in Loughborough adjacent to the railway station. It was just their bus building activities which they disposed of in 1952. All production was then transferred to Willowbrook including some double deck Daimlers for Derby which were in build at the time and Brush designs disappeared almost immediately.
Chris Barker
12/08/12 – 07:16
Willowbrook existed in Loughborough from 1931, totally independent of Brush. They occupied the retail site now known as Willowbrook Park. Brush voluntarily quit the bus body building enterprise in 1952, but locals tell me that their designs were passed to Willowbrook. As Chris says, Brush are still in business, but they are a mere shadow of what they once were, and are no longer the town`s biggest employer. Once upon a time, they were the second largest tramcar builder in the UK, and that was just part of their total business! What about Pennine though! Still in business, and they have seen it all and survived it all, and still continue as a small independent. I remember them well from my courting days, with wife to be living past Settle, on the Pennine route! Good old Happy Days are getting even happier!
John Whitaker
12/08/12 – 07:18
I thought Pennine only had a garage in Skipton, but from Philip’s comment above, and from looking at their current timetable showing some early morning services starting in Barnsoldswick, I realise they have a garage there as well. Does anyone know how many vehicles are accommodated there; presumably only 4 or 5?
Dave Towers
28/08/12 – 14:29
The Pennine garage at Barnoldswick was acquired with the business of Ezra Laycock Ltd in 1972. As an ex-Laycock employee I ought to be able to confidently tell you the depot’s capacity – I can’t quite do that, but I think that the answer is five, although in Laycock days vehicles were parked outside as well. According to the timetable three buses start and finish at Barnoldswick, so that is presumably how many operational buses are kept at the depot. I did have it in my head that MTD 235 had been moved to Skipton, but I may have imagined that bit. As far as I am aware Pennine also continues to use the small depot at Settle, capacity two vehicles.
David Call
29/08/12 – 07:26
I notice that Pete Davies has mentioned (on the Pennine LWY 702 posting) that MTD 235 is indeed now resident at the Skipton depot.
David Call
29/08/12 – 18:59
All is explained, at last. The section about MTC 757 & MTD 235 appears under a total of four headings – Brush (bodybuilder), Leyland (bodybuilder), Pennine (operator), and Leyland Royal Tiger. Only under the heading of Leyland Royal Tiger is there a section devoted to Pennine’s LWY 702, and it is at the foot of that section where Pete Davies has mentioned that MTD 235 is now at Skipton depot. I would not expect LWY 702 to be mentioned under Brush, of course, but I am surprised that it does not at least get a mention under Pennine (operator). As to whether it should appear under Leyland (bodybuilder) or even Leyland (chassis builder), I suppose you will have to draw a line somewhere regarding what gets included and what doesn’t, there were an awful lot of Leyland buses manufactured. In passing perhaps I could mention that I noticed that under the heading of Leyland Royal Tiger Cub, only one of the three sections actually relates to an example of that model. The other two refer to the infinitely more common Leyland Tiger Cub. Should I trawl through the other headings checking for similar errors/anomalies? It would beat counting sheep, I suppose.
David Call
30/08/12 – 06:56
The comments engendered by entries to this Forum frequently range far and wide, often well beyond the strict confines of the original submission. We have all had at least one reprimand, not, be it noted, from our webmaster, for straying from the initial subject, but that is entirely within the spirit of this site. The wealth of interest, information and detail that emerges thereby is invaluable. I think that we should go on regarding ourselves as a bus enthusiasts’ equivalent of Dr. Johnson’s Literary Club, with free ranging discussion. Cross referencing every point made in the “comment” columns would be a nightmarish task. Let us just be very grateful for this splendid site.
Roger Cox
30/08/12 – 11:47
Agreed, Roger. It’s worth remembering, too, that, although not as good as cross-referencing, there is a search facility on the website which I’ve found useful a couple of times.
Chris Hebbron
31/08/12 – 07:24
I think most of us form a loose group of cyber friends with a common purpose. I think that overrides any jobsworth tendency to pedantry – and that comes from one of the world’s biggest pedants!
David Oldfield
31/08/12 – 07:25
Contrary to what I stated above, it seems that the section devoted to LWY702 actually appears under all the headings I mentioned – I hadn’t realised that many of the headings lead to multiple pages. It does not help, of course, that my search engine (google) only picks up words and phrases which are contained in the first of those multiple pages – not the second and subsequent.
David Call
11/05/14 – 11:14
On the Pennine (operator) pages, Chris Wright and Orla Nutting comment on the forthcoming closure of the company. There has been some confusion about MTD 235. Some sources say she’s at Barnoldswick (spoken locally as Barlick) and some (including me, based on reports I’ve had) say she’s at Skipton. To a degree, both are right and both are wrong! On withdrawal, she spent MANY years gathering dust at Barnoldswick garage. About 2 years ago, she was moved to head office with a view to start of restoration. The inspection was duly undertaken and it was found to be [I quote] ‘a massive job’ which would divert too many staff hours, so she’s back at Barnoldswick, apparently with one of the Leopards new to Ezra Laycock. I suspect that a number of readers will be concerned about the future of MTD maybe she should could go either to the Leyland Museum or to the one in St Helens if the family don’t keep her.
Pete Davies
12/05/14 – 08:37
The ex-Laycock Leyland Leopard reputedly stored at Barnoldswick depot can only be OWY 197K, since that was the only Leopard ever owned by Laycock’s. An interesting point is that throughout the few months of its time with Laycock’s, and into Pennine ownership, it carried the incorrect registration OWY 179K.
David Call
13/05/14 – 06:34
Thank you, David, for your comments about the Leopard. In the Donald Binns book about Pennine, there are two photographs showing her with OWY 197K, but the listings in the book show both registrations! She is shown in the book as being stored at Ingleton, but that is clearly out of date if my information from company staff the other day is correct.
Pete Davies
23/05/14 – 07:51
Pete. I paid my respects to Pennine on the last day 16th May I Actually wrote to Maurice Simpson wishing him well for the future and how sad it was Pennine Motors was closing down. I suggested MTD 235 should be restored in memory of his father and the company and what his plans are for the vehicle. Work was carried out on the brakes and other bits and pieces the chief engineer tells me, however she is to be towed back to Skipton in the coming weeks but what the future is it is not clear as yet.
Mark Mc Alister
25/05/14 – 10:33
Thanks, Mark, for your update. Before I retired, I worked in the passenger transport team of Southampton City Council, dealing with the local operators over aspects of their services. The national concession scheme was just coming into use. My managers commented on several occasions that the regulations said that the level of reimbursement must be strictly neutral, in that the operator must be no better off and no worse off through taking part in the scheme. The reports I have read in various places all suggest that North Yorkshire County Council have a different view.
Pete Davies
26/05/14 – 09:28
The point made by Pete Davies was first specified in the Ridley 1985 Transport Act when each local authority had the power to determine a concessionary fare scheme. This led to wide variations throughout the country, and some authorities, of course, chose not to offer any meaningful scheme at all, which was one of the reasons why the Labour government, in reality, John Prescott, decided to ensure that mandatory schemes were available everywhere from 2001. This was followed up in 2007 by a national scheme for England. The Welsh and Scottish administrations pursued their own policies. This new scheme maintained the requirement that “Travel Concession Authorities are required by law to reimburse bus operators for carrying concessionary passengers, on the principle that the operators are “no better off and no worse off” by taking part in concessionary travel schemes. The aim is not to subsidise bus operators, but to pay for any increased costs that they have incurred”. The legislation goes on to say, “The national bus concession in England is available at any time on a Saturday, Sunday or bank holiday, and from 9.30am to 11pm on any other day. TCAs are able to offer concessionary travel outside these hours on a discretionary basis”. I understand that North Yorkshire allows the passes to be used from 9am until 6am the following morning, which is entirely lawful under the clause stated above.
Roger Cox
26/05/14 – 09:29
The situation in respect of the depot premises is as follows. Skipton: To let at £40,000 p.a. or might sell Barnoldswick: Sale agreed Ingleton: Sale agreed Settle: For sale (‘Guide price’ £75,000) or might let As Mark McA says, the future for MTD 235 is not clear – it looks even less clear now. We can only hope that it will be, as suggested by Pete, donated to one of the established museums.
David Call
26/05/14 – 14:01
Quite right, Roger, but it’s the amount of reimbursement that seems to have upset matters in this case.
Pete Davies
21/02/16 – 15:44
Re MTD 235 – can anybody give me an update on this coach’s current condition and location please?
Howard Piltz
21/03/16 – 15:54
It appears to have been offered for sale on Ebay in 2014 but the highest bid, just over £2K, didn’t meet the reserve price. Since then it has been off the radar.
Mike Morton
23/03/16 – 05:42
“Just over £2K”, Mike? That’s just silly, given the nature of the beast. I’d have expected another ‘0’ on the figure . . .
Pete Davies
23/03/16 – 17:10
Pete That’s the reality of Bus Preservation lots of effort/money but nothing like the financial return of vintage cars.
Roger Burdett
23/03/16 – 17:14
Sadly Pete, the generation of enthusiasts that remember and appreciate this era of classic vehicle are getting on in years and fewer in number, and probably feel that it is a bit late in the day to start getting involved in such a substantial and expensive restoration. The majority of active preservationists nowadays are more into the vehicles of their youth – such as Nationals, Olympians and Metrobuses, and even more recent types than those. I attended the open day at the Dewsbury Bus Museum the other week and thought I’d sample a few rides on the free bus service into Dewsbury and back. I rode on the superb recently restored West Riding PD2 and then the West Riding PS2 but was surprised to note that though plenty people were photographing them, there were relatively few that chose to ride on them, whereas the Olympians, RELL, Leopard and even the virtually new Arriva Enviro Whateveritis were packed out with excited punters. Time moves on, and so will we, and I fear for the long term future of many of our favourite classic buses.
John Stringer
24/03/16 – 05:56
Re MTD 235. It did not meet reserve on eBay in 2014 (highest bid £2250) so presumably its still with Simpson (t/s Pennine Coaches) Skipton.
John Wakefield
24/05/16 – 08:58
MTD 235 once again on Ebay.
Dave Philpot
30/05/17 – 06:42
MTD 235 has been sold on in Yorkshire.
Phil Clark
22/11/17 – 07:37
I can report that restoration of ex-Pennine Royal Tiger MTD 235 is continuing with the mechanics receiving a thorough overall and work commencing on the body. It is hoped that it will make a return to the road one day soon, keeping fingers crossed!
Phil Clark
23/11/17 – 07:09
Wonderful news!
Pete Davies
23/11/17 – 07:10
Good news indeed Phil-thanks for the report.
Stuart Emmett
23/09/18 – 06:14
I am currently restoring the ex-Pennine Leyland Royal Tiger MTD 235 – has anyone got a destination blind for this or any Pennine posters or notices or timetables that were displayed in their buses in the 1950s, 1960s or 1970s? I will be pleased of any help or copies of anything that will add to the restoration. Thank you, you can contact me through this website.
Phil Clark
05/11/18 – 13:38
The only blind I have seen also covers 1972, 1983 and 1986 changes and includes the former routes of Laycock, Skipton and the ex Ribble locals and Burnley etc. 1950’s/1960’s when MTD was in main service then the range was small. Therefore would suggest only needs to include Malham, Tosside, Morecambe, Lancaster, Ingleton, Gargrave, Settle, Skipton, and Contract. On further materials-assume, you already will have the Donald Binns 2000 book called Pennine Motor Services that includes many timetables. Hope this helps and that your worthwhile project continues on. Any ideas when it might be completed?
Stuart Emmett
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
18/11/18 – 09:26
I’m trying to locate the Leyland Royal Tiger MTD 235 mentioned in your website. My dad is a retired bus driver and it’s his favourite bus. I’m trying to arrange just to see it really.
Steven Davies
27/01/19 – 07:41
Thanks for your info on MTD 235 destination names that will be useful, at the moment it has no blind gear as this must have been removed some time ago, so I am trying to find replacement blind gear (if anyone has some!). I haven’t found that book on Pennine but I hope I’ll find it some day. I have found some old Pennine excursion flyers which I hope to make use of. Restoration continues albeit slowly as I’m finding much of the rear end wood frame has decayed or is missing and this is not my favourite job! I am part way through rewiring the coach as much of the original is in a very poor state. I think it will be a while yet before it is finished, but if anyone has any memorabilia, old Pennine notices, posters or unpublished photographs I will be pleased to know!
Belle Vue Coaches 1951 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15 Duple Roadmaster ????
As most people visiting this site will know, Dinky made far more examples of the model Duple Roadmaster than Duple ever managed to make of the real thing. Most of the real ones went to Standerwick and, so far as I am aware, there are no survivors from that batch. There area few others about, however, and I captured this one, LOE 300 on Royal Tiger PSU1/15 chassis, during the Fleetwood Tram Sunday event on 15 July. The PSV Circle volume on preserved buses shows her to have started life in 1951 with Jackson of Castle Bromwich. She’s now in the care of Walsh (Belle Vue Coaches) in the Manchester area and may or may not show RSK 615 as the registration. “Not” in this view! I’m sure someone out there can answer this, but I’ve only ever seen the Roadmaster on a Royal Tiger chassis. Were they ever fitted to other makes?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
21/08/12 – 16:29
RSK 615 isn’t assigned to any vehicle at present.
Roger Broughton
21/08/12 – 16:30
To clarify the note above, she shows Belle Vue Coaches on the back panel, but PSVC shows her as with Walsh.
David, Thank you for that. I can see some resemblance, but my experience of the body design – Standerwick and Dinky Toys, of course, plus this one – shows several differences. Is it, perhaps, a Mk1 and a Mk2, or other modification, in the way the Seagulls had variations and “Mk” numbers during their production?
Pete Davies
21/08/12 – 20:32
SK is a Caithness (Inverness) registration mark, so if that’s the original number, could it have started life with the SMT group ‘Highland Scottish’ as it later became?
Ronnie Hoye
21/08/12 – 20:33
I saw this lovely machine at the Leyland event, but how much nicer would it look if repainted into the dark blue with a red roof livery it wore while with its main owner, South Notts of Gotham, who bought it from Jackson at a fairly early stage in its working career? Did any other Roadmasters survive to the present day?
Neville Mercer
21/08/12 – 20:34
Two of these coaches survive. The other is MAL 310, a South Notts PSU1/11 new in 1951. South Notts also owned LOE 300 for a time.
Philip Lamb
22/08/12 – 06:10
Livery makes such a difference, Pete – as does the fact that the Guy is photographed in black and white and the Leyland is, literally, in glorious colour. Lighter shades tend to flatter – which is no doubt why large operators of this era used “reverse” livery for coaches.
David Oldfield
22/08/12 – 06:11
The registration number RSK 615 is almost certainly an age related DVLA allocation thus inferring that the LOE 300 registration has or may have been lost at some stage. If it is being driven wearing LOE 300 then hopefully the number has been regained replacing the age related one.
Richard Leaman
22/08/12 – 06:11
I wonder how many of these Jackson of Castle Bromwich had, because South Notts purchased two of them, LOE 300 and LOE 900, both in 1957. As Neville says, South Notts were the main operator, having obtained around thirteen years service out of them. Together with their own MAL 310 purchased new and MRR 974 with Leyland bus body, it was quite an impressive fleet of Royal Tigers for a small independent!
Chris Barker
22/08/12 – 10:23
Pete. If you scrutinise the two photographs carefully for differences: (i) Livery (ii) Mouldings (iii) Position of emergency door (central on Guy) partly causing (iv) different windows (pairs on Leyland put two singles in middle of Guy) Drop ventilators on Guy and Hoppers on Leyland. Mouldings include front panel on Leyland for spare wheel. Question for everyone. Hoppers? How common was this in 1950. Still the same body, though. Similar difference could be seen on other bodies, including later Duples – in particular between bodies on different chassis.
David Oldfield
22/08/12 – 11:08
Thank you, David.
Pete Davies
22/08/12 – 14:47
As Chris B says, LOE300 spent approx 13 years with South Notts; it then passed to the British Legion (later Royal British Legion) at Gotham who kept it for many more years.
My photo shows it on Queens Drive, Nottingham in 1988/9, towards the end of its time with them. How nice to see it preserved and active again.
Bob Gell
23/08/12 – 07:13
Good bit of parking or pioneering low-step access for the old lads?! More seriously, I thought the (unavoidably) off-centre Leyland badge had been added as a restoration trimming, but apparently not.
Joe
23/08/12 – 07:14
Now that’s a classy livery, well suited to the beading. Presumably this was is South Notts colours?
Paul Haywood
23/08/12 – 07:15
Another unique point about the South Notts trio of Roadmasters is that the one they bought new, MAL 310 was 7ft 6in wide, whereas these two were 8ft wide.
Chris Barker
23/08/12 – 10:48
Regarding MAL 310 being a 7ft 6in wide vehicle (and a bus rather than a coach) – this probably has to do with the routes it was planned for. I don’t ever remember seeing single deckers on the Nottingham – Gotham – Loughborough main line service. Single deckers operated the Nottingham – Kegworth village service with quite a few narrow roads and tight bends. Most were short workings to Barton in Fabis or Thrumpton, and the others included or omitted West Leake and/or Kingston on Soar according to market day, the state of the moon, and whether there was an R in the month – a typical rural bus service of the 50s. From memory, I think it was previously run with conductor operated half-cabs.
Stephen Ford
23/08/12 – 10:48
There’s a nice colour shot of LOE 300 in South Notts livery in Malcolm Keeley’s excellent book “Midland Red Days”. I didn’t know about it’s time with the British Legion, so thanks for that photograph – she looks rather nice in blue and yellow! Also thanks to Philip Lamb for reminding me that MAL still exists. My personal favourite livery on this type was that of Bamber Bridge MS who had two of them in red and black, one a narrow 7 ft 6 in, the other an 8ft wide version. It’s about time a diecast manufacturer tackled this one again – it’s been a long time since the 1/72 scale Dinky Toy and there are lots of good liveries available even though it was a comparatively rare prototype.
Neville Mercer
23/08/12 – 14:19
Some interesting thoughts from Stephen. There was an oddity reported on the BBC news channel several weeks ago about a market day service in the Milton Keynes area. It operates only on the FIFTH Tuesday in the month, so maybe three or four times a year. Why, the reporter was asking, not EVERY Tuesday? In the Nottingham and Gotham area, I’d be surprised if the mischief makers among the local bus fans did not spend time amending the signs to BARTON IS FAB . . . And Thrumpton, that’s where the fire brigade in the children’s television show was based, wasn’t it?
Pete Davies
24/08/12 – 08:15
There’s also a train that goes only one way (I believe from Stockport to Stalybridge) and doesn’t return. I think that is only when there’s a Q in the month as well!
David Oldfield
24/08/12 – 08:15
Alan Townsin’s Duple book confirms that the Guy had a later version of the Roadmaster body than LOE 300, after what he calls “some tidying up”. The hopper windows were standard on the early models, later reverting to the more usual full-drop type seen on the Guy. Red & White Group were the biggest Roadmaster customer, the parent company taking 1 Leyland and 14 Guys, with a further 7 Guys for the United Welsh fleet.
Peter Williamson
24/08/12 – 08:32
South Notts own Royal Tiger/Duple Roadmaster (fleet number 42, MAL 310) had 45 seats. This was one more than the Royal Tiger with the Leyland bus body (fleet number 45, MRR 974) that seated 44 due to the emergency exit being in the rear wall of the body. The Royal Tiger badge was fixed in the centre of the front panels on 42, rather than offset to the nearside as with 63 (LOE 900) and 64 (LOE 300). Numbers 63 & 64 both seated 41 passengers. Sorry, Neville – South Notts painted the roof maroon on their buses.
Michael Elliott
24/08/12 – 12:29
Michael, I lived in Nottingham for several years and can assure you that South Notts COACHES used to have a red roof. You’re thinking of their double-decker buses which did indeed carry maroon as their top colour. The red roof on coaches seems to have been abandoned on new vehicles or repaints after about 1960, but the maroon roof on ‘deckers continued until the time of the NCT take-over.
Neville Mercer
25/08/12 – 07:26
Thanks Neville for your info on South Notts coach livery pre circa 1960. I’m a ‘native’ of Nottingham and we moved to Clifton in 1953 (when I was three) so over the years I’ve been very familiar with South Notts buses. Certainly South Notts double deckers had maroon tops and wings and initially also had cream lower deck window surrounds but, from my memory, this was soon dropped and blue window surrounds with a cream cant rail and waist rail (depending on whether the vehicle concerned had a waist rail) adopted instead. My memories of South Notts single deck buses (principally the Royal Tiger bus, known as ‘the coffin’) is that these had maroon tops also. I have to say that these are memories from age nine/ten when I started to take a ‘more informed view’ on buses. On the question of the ‘Roadmasters’ my memories are of them with maroon tops, as are my memories of the Bedford OBs and the Leyland PS1/Duple ‘A’ type, which latterly became a snow plough. Later coaches, such as the Bedford SBs and VAMs had a livery incorporating two shades of blue. By the way keep up the good work with the ‘Independents’ series of books. I look forward to treating myself to a copy of the North Wales volume.
Michael Elliott
25/08/12 – 10:56
Thanks for the kind words, Michael. On the South Notts front you’ve made me doubt myself enough to look through a few picture books to check the coach livery. As well as the previously mentioned shot of LOE 300 in Malcolm Keeley’s book (definitely a bright red top!) I’ve also found two shots of South Notts OB/Duple Vistas with the red roof. It’s a pity that they didn’t continue with this livery variation into the 1960s/70s – by the time I lived in Nottingham the coaches were all-over blue which did them no favours.
Neville Mercer
26/08/12 – 07:40
During 1934 both Barton and South Notts, as associated companies, introduced maroon roofs wings to all their vehicles as a form of corporate identity. Barton having held a 50% share in South Notts since 1929. Maroon was replaced by a light shade of blue on single deckers during 1961 and with the repainting of 117 in 1986 to celebrate 60 years of operation the maroon was dropped, but retaining indigo and cream as the original livery. This was so well received it was decided to standardize this on their double deckers and several were so treated. Royal Tiger No.42 MAL 310 was a dual purpose vehicle, not a bus and was used on private hire and often hired to Barton for their express services. The two ex Jackson Royal Tigers in fact stood in Barton’s Chilwell garage yard for several months and at least one (No.64 LOE 300) ran in service with South Notts in Jackson’s green/grey livery.
Alan Oxley
11/10/12 – 07:22
I was surprised to read in Neville Mercer’s post (above) that of the two Roadmasters with Bamber Bridge Motor Service one was 7’6″ wide and the other 8′, since they were both from the same batch (of three?) new to Scout Motor Services, and it has always been my understanding that the entire batch were 7’6″. Any more bids?
David Call
17/01/15 – 06:17
This bus is part of our vintage collection at BelleVue Manchester Ltd. Any questions you may have I can forward on to The Walsh Bros. Kenny Walsh is the maintenance Director at BelleVue and he is one half of the Walsh Bros who perform restorations on a variety of classics.
Donna Thompson
01/06/15 – 07:22
The South Notts Worldmasters had maroon tops. I went on one to Dudley Zoo on a school trip – my first solo outing. It was similar to Barton’s maroon as there had always been connections between the two companies. They often did the Saturday services to Gotham and Thrumpton etc from Huntingdon St bus station as well as private hire and duplicates. P54 Malcolm Keeley – Midland Red Days does indeed show LOE 300 with a maroon roof exactly the same as the two South Notts Leyland buses behind. This is probably a Saturday with the Leyland PDs doing a short working to Gotham and the regular service to Loughborough (18-30 departures?). The Thrumpton bus would turn off before Gotham and was usually lightly loaded. Alan Oxley’s South Notts book (1985) is one of my cherished possessions and I would highly recommend it if you can get hold of a copy. Oxford Diecast models intend to make a 1/76th scale model of a Worldmaster in Belle Vue Coaches livery-this one? More details will emerge.
David O’Brien
02/06/15 – 07:06
David, hate to be pedantic but these are Duple ROADmasters, not Worldmasters. Worldmaster was a brand-name used by Leyland for export versions of their Royal Tiger chassis. Also, while I accept that most South Notts vehicles had maroon roof trim, nobody has addressed the issue of bright red being shown in various published photographs detailed above. I’m aware of the “false colour” which many early types of slide film produced (as is anybody who has bought a book about Ribble!) but the examples given are beyond that. If the colours in the photo’s mentioned are wrong then I suspect that they were altered during production of the books in question. Anybody got any thoughts?
Neville Mercer
03/06/15 – 06:21
That is a valid point, Neville. Not only did different makes of colour film, slide and negative, give greatly varying results, often exacerbated by sloppy laboratory processing, but we now exist in an age of Photoshop and similar computer programs that allow image modification to a degree way beyond the old darkroom techniques. I confess to using the modern methods to get a reasonable result from my elderly slides, and I very much doubt if most published pictures are truly accurate in colour rendition. One does try to get it right, but, perhaps, our increasingly high mileage memories are probably not the best judges of the original liveries. One would really need a paint chart to match the most important colours of the original scheme for a true result.
Roger Cox
03/06/15 – 06:22
To answer my own query (11/10/12) it would appear that the three Scout Roadmasters were a mixture of 7’6″ and 8’0″. BLOTW has DRN 355 as 7’6″ and DRN 356/7 as 8’0″, but the Peter Gould fleetlist gives DRN 357 as 7’6″. All the available evidence indicates that the Peter Gould version is correct, if this is the case then the two which went to BBMS were indeed one of each width. In respect of three Leyland-bodied PD2s new to Scout at much the same time (DRN 364-6), Peter Gould has the first two as 8’0″ wide and the third as 7’6″. BLOTW gives them all as 8’0″, but given the mixture of Roadmaster widths I suppose it’s quite possible that the PD2s were mixed width also.
David Call
28/10/15 – 07:13
Yes, colour films of the era each had their own characteristics: principally, Kodachrome (perhaps the most widely-used colour films at the time) produced vivid representations of reds. Other films were more subdued (and perhaps more realistic). Maroon appearing as bright red: I can believe it!
Allen
28/03/16 – 17:16
“SK” was indeed a Caithness CC registration originally, but with so few registrations issued by this authority, registration marks BSK to YSK were allocated by DVLA to various VROs throughout UK for “age-related” re-registrations between 3/90 and 3/92.
Andy
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
23/08/20 – 05:26
LOE 300 was sold in 11/18 to James Baile of Nassington. His mother runs a wedding and conference venue Prebendal Manor, Nassington, pics of it appear on their FB page, it was being used as an office in April this year! https://www.facebook.com/ so not sure what his plans are for it. It won’t do it much good if left outside!
Mexborough & Swinton Traction Co Ltd 1954 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/11 Harrington Wayfarer C26C
Mexborough & Swinton acquired a number of former Southdown vehicles during the 1960’s, including this Royal Tiger with Harrington Wayfarer coachwork. New to Southdown in 1954 as its 834, it was one of a batch (830-834) of five Royal Tigers with Harrington Wayfarer C26C coachwork. However, whereas 830-833 were 8ft wide PSU1/15 models, 834 was a one-off 7ft 6in wide PSU1/11 model. Renumbered 1834 around 1960 it was used principally on the Brighton to Heysham part of their Irish tours. It was acquired by M&STC in 1965, and withdrawn by them shortly after this photo was taken in 1968.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
03/02/13 – 13:22
C26C leaps out as being rather odd, but the copy reveals why the batch was seated thus. Any ideas, please, as to why this one was only 7ft 6in, when the other four were to the usual 8ft? Could it, perhaps, have been because of the need to visit parts of Ireland where a standard 8ft vehicle could have problems – but the copy mentions only the Brighton to Heysham portion of the tour, as if an operator from across the Irish Sea dealt with the rest. Interesting!!!
Pete Davies
03/02/13 – 13:24
Thanks John for the excellent picture. 1832 and 1833 were also 7′ 6” PSU1/11’s and were used for the Irish leg of these tours by UTA until return to Southdown in 1963. They were subsequently painted in the Blue and Cream livery of Bucks Coaches of Worthing, who had just been taken over by Southdown. These vehicles replaced a pair of Bedford OB’s inherited from Bucks. 1832 and 1833 were withdrawn by Southdown in late 1966.
Roy Nicholson
03/02/13 – 14:21
It is interesting to note that 1832 and 1833 were sold to UTA in order to run the Southdown “coach cruises”, never tours, that ran in Northern Ireland. Regulations in the province permitted only UTA to run PSVs. They were transferred at book value, with the agreement that they would be bought back when no longer required. At least Wallace Arnold and Barton had the same arrangement.
Gore’s of Southport 1951 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15 Burlingham Seagull C37C new – C41C ??/??
Gore’s Coaches was the trading name of the Southport & Birkdale Motor and Carriage Co. Ltd. of Southport. I was quite taken aback to come across this late survivor of the Royal Tiger/Burlingham Seagull marque in such fine fettle outside Liverpool Lime Street Railway Station, whilst on an enthusiasts’ visit to Birkenhead and Wallasey on 13th June 1971. This one deserved to have survived into preservation – I wonder what became of it ?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
17/02/13 – 07:34
Super picture and beautiful vehicle – doesn’t look twenty years old, more like twenty months.
David Oldfield
17/02/13 – 13:31
Very nice, John! Thanks for posting. Reading Corporation (I see you don’t list any from that fleet yet, Peter) had assorted single deckers, even into the RE era, with the Burlingham trademark on the front. Flattery gets you everywhere!
Pete Davies
17/02/13 – 17:31
Any Burlingham will do for me – apart from the hideous flying pig (c1959) on Bedford/Ford chassis!
David Oldfield
18/02/13 – 11:00
It would be a hard job to make one of these look bad, but no doubt some of todays ‘Corporate Image Experts’ would have a good try.
Ronnie Hoye
18/02/13 – 12:08
Yes Ronnie, but imagine one in National white – that would be bad enough!
Thank you, Alan, but Roger’s views (good as they are) don’t appear in the column to the left, so a newcomer to the site may not know there are any of this operator without a closer study. I’ve found a few to submit for consideration and will fire them off to our Editor in the course of the next few weeks.
Pete Davies
19/02/13 – 15:23
Very true, David, the National all white reminded me of the factory finish commercial vehicles were delivered in prior to painting. It’s not so much all one colour that’s the problem, choice of colour could make all the difference on what were very similar vehicles. Take a Plaxton body for example, National all white? drab and anonymous, Glenton on the other hand were quietly restrained and dignified.
Ronnie Hoye
19/02/13 – 15:23
PSVC gives this coach as withdrawn by Gore’s in 11/72, with no further owner recorded. Evidently reseated to C41C at some time prior to this photo, but recorded as C37C, as given above, when new.
David Williamson
22/09/14 – 14:37
I am not a bus or coach driver, just a casual visitor to this site, but it occurred to me that there is a serious front overhang on the coach above. Did it not make it difficult to drive? I once drove a 3 ton truck on a one off 20 mile trip. That gave me the sensation of being slightly drunk. I would have thought that you would have felt completely plastered, driving the above!
Martin Robinson
28/10/14 – 16:52
There is a Burlingham Seagull advertised on eBay at the moment. //www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201202508209?clk_rvr_id=721251652239 I don’t know how accurate the listing is. It says 1958 Bedford SB8 Classic Vintage Coach yet further down it says it has a Leyland 350 engine. Did they put Leyland engines in the Bedford chassis?
John Lomas
29/10/14 – 06:59
They did fit Leyland engines, John, but I doubt the Leyland 0.350 is original. I don’t think the SB13 (with 0.350) was available in 1958 – more likely an SB8 (with 0.330). The 0.350 was probably a retrofit. 1958 was actually very close to the end of SBO and introduction of SB5 and SB8. I’m not expert enough in this part of Bedford’s history to be sure of dates – I only know the specifications. The SBG morphed into the classic SB3 (300 Bedford petrol), the SBO became the SB5 (330 Bedford diesel) and the SB8 (0.330 Leyland diesel) was an addition to the range. I believe the SB13 (0.350 Leyland diesel) eventually replaced the SB8 but everything was outlasted by the SB5 which continued (albeit with a new, indecipherable code) until the bitter end in 1985.
David Oldfield
29/10/14 – 06:59
Yes, Bedford SB8 and SB13 models had Leyland engines.
David Hick
29/10/14 – 15:56
Forgot to mention the rare SB1 with 300 Bedford diesel engine.
David Oldfield
29/10/14 – 15:56
The Bedford dealer, Arlington, had begun offering conversions of the ‘Big Bedford’ S-type goods chassis with the Leyland O350 (5.76 litre) engine from as early as 1952. Bedford themselves began to offer a Perkins R6 (5.56 litre) diesel option in both that model and the SBO coach chassis from 1953. In 1957 Bedford introduced their own 330 (4.92 litre) diesel engine to replace the troublesome R6, resulting in the SB1. At the same time they began to offer the Leyland O350 officially as an option, resulting in the SB8. In 1961 they replaced their own 300 diesel with the increased capacity 330 (5.42 litres), resulting in the SB5. By 1962 Leyland had replaced the O350 and its larger bore equivalent the O375 (not used by Bedford) with the revised O370 (6.05 litre) and O400 (6.54 litre) units respectively. The O370 went into the SB as the SB13, and the O400 into the twin-steer VAL, and later the VAM as well as various goods models.
John Stringer
29/10/14 – 17:04
….. and of course Leyland then produced their own version of the SB13 – the Albion Victor VT41L, with the O.370. Those who ran them held them in high regard but, like many models, they were a little late on the market and only lasted about three seasons before the VAM/R192 style lightweights took over from the traditional SB style motor for independents.
David Oldfield
05/08/18 – 07:45
I have just come across the messages sent four years ago concerning Bedford coaches fitted with a Leyland engine & I would just like to vouch how good that combination was. When Bedford deleted the option to specify a Leyland power unit in 1967/8 ie the Leyland O400 in the four wheeler VAM14 & “Chinese Six” VAL14 in favour of their own 466 engine to me it was a retrogressive step. The Bedford 466 engine was originally developed for the introduction of the KM lorry in 1966. The 466 was not a bad engine, but not a patch on a Leyland unit especially VALs. With this disservice by Bedfords a good number of coach firms move onto the Leyland (& indeed Perkins) powered Bristol LH & its longer brother, the LHL.
Andrew Spriggs
07/08/18 – 06:03
Andrew. I think most people – and certainly most operators – agree that the VAL14 and VAM14, because of their 0.400 engines, were better than the VAL70 and VAM70, with the Bedford 466. The Ford R series began to catch up with Bedfords and, possibly overtake them (literally) from this time on. Bedford’s heyday was really from the OB through to the SB3.
David Oldfield
09/08/18 – 07:18
Yes I agree with you David, as the Ford R series really gave Bedford a run for their money especially with the turbo engine & six speed gearbox on Fords. In the later years of Glenway Coaches, Fords served the company well,drivers only complaints were the turbo would cut out for no reason & a sloppy gearbox (having to fish for gears). Fords would fly along on the flat on the motorway, get to a gradient & then old AEC Reliances would fly past in the middle lane leaving the modern Ford standing. Going back to the original thread of Leyland Royal Tigers (bit before my time), the only one I recall was a 1952 model that had been rebodied in the mid 60s with a Plaxton Panorama body, my friend drove that one, he liked it apart from heavy steering & not too good brakes.
Warwickshire Miners 1953 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/16 Leyland C41C
Here are two views of GJT 29 for your perusal. She is a Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/16, with Leyland’s own C41C bodywork, and is seen at the Southsea rally on 17 June 1984. The odd feature about her is that she was never a PSV. She was built in 1953 (according to the PSVC listing) as a staff bus for a mining and/or quarrying firm in the Purbeck area of Dorset. PSVC lists the original owners as Warwickshire Miners and I’m supposing that the Dorset operation was a subsidiary. She was in use with a Scout group in the area at the time of the photographs.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
22/03/13 – 08:03
The Purbeck area of Dorset there is an Oil field still producing a lot of oil, so it is probably that site in which GJT 29 transported the staff.
David J Henighan
22/03/13 – 16:37
The mining industry had various convalescent homes around the country which were regionalised (S. Wales, Yorkshire, Warwickshire) and the latter had a home in Swanage (Durlston Court). This one was called the Warwickshire Miners’ Convalescent Home, which is the full title of the owner of the coach. I wonder if the coach had been pensioned off by then, but bought/passed on for the nearby oilfield’s employees.
Chris Hebbron
22/03/13 – 16:37
I believe the Royal Tiger was used by the Warwickshire Miners’ Convalescent Home (Durlston Court, Park Road, Swanage) to transport its patients.
John Stringer
22/03/13 – 16:38
Here she is in preservation. www.flickr.com/one According to Preserved Buses (2006 Edition), she was owned by Massingham of Slough but that may have changed by now of course.
John Darwent
22/03/13 – 16:39
There is a Warwickshire Miners Convalescent Home in Swanage. I believe that it has since been demolished. This maybe the reason for the Dorset registration. Also see the following picture on flickr: www.flickr.com/photos/two
Stephen Bloomfield
23/03/13 – 07:51
John… Would you know where to look or search for if GJT 29 is still with us… I’ve tried the usual Googling and nothing other than links back to this site and flickr… These vehicles are one of my all time favourites but I haven’t seen one in the flesh for maybe 50 years now…We had a thread sometime during last year and I was asking if it would be possible to find one during our annual visit back to the UK and (I think it was) Neville Mercer, but apologies if I’m wrong there, suggested that there may only be two of these beauties left – one at the Scottish Bus Museum in Fife and another, perhaps, somewhere in Yorkshire… If this one was in a preserved condition as recently as 2006, maybe it’s still in ownership somewhere and I’d love to be able to see it during this year’s visit…
Stuart C
23/03/13 – 09:02
Stuart, GJT is listed in the PSVC edition for 2012 as being with Massingham, Slough. I’ve no idea what condition she’s in!
Pete Davies
24/03/13 – 15:06
. . . and I forgot! Pennine still have the former demonstrator, MTD 235. My sources tell me she’s stored in the garage in Skipton (the former Ribble place in Broughton Road) but others say she’s at Barnoldswick. The Ribble Vehicle Preservation Trust used to have one, possibly two, but their website didn’t mention them when I looked last.
Pete Davies
26/03/13 – 06:35
Many quality vehicles ended their working lives as workmens or staff buses, but not many would have started that way. You would expect a new vehicle to have been from the lightweight end of the market rather than a Royal Tiger.
Ronnie Hoye
26/03/13 – 08:59
To be fair, Ronnie, it’s not clear that it did start as a workmen’s bus. But you make a good point that, even if the vehicle had been acquired by the convalescent home for patient use, why was it such a heavyweight? It’s all shrouded in mystery, as ever!
Chris Hebbron
26/03/13 – 16:10
Thanks very much….If I track down GJT later this year, then I’ll update everyone….Fingers crossed she’s still in one piece !
Stuart C
27/03/13 – 06:40
The various “Unions of Mineworkers” – Warwickshire, Durham, Kent etc (the National Union of Mineworkers [NUM] was a federation of the regional unions/areas) each had their own convalescent homes for sick/retired mineworkers. A coach would be required to transport residents around the local area, and also to ferry residents between the home and place of residence: I would assume that the coach would spend most of its time on “local” work around the home, with regular – but less frequent – trips to collect/return patients to the place of residence, so perhaps it made sense to register the coach in the area where it would spend most of its time (Dorset) rather than Warwickshire. I’m sure a lightweight could have done the job, but a heavyweight would have done it better and would make a “statement”: don’t forget that until the mid-1980s the NUM areas were very wealthy bodies – a new heavyweight would make a powerful statement of “who we are” and “how we care for our members”, both to those inside and outside the organisation.
Philip Rushworth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
30/10/13 – 07:03
Ribble 377 the all Leyland Royal Tiger PSU/13 ERN 700 is with the Ribble preservation group and restoration is on going, though it is a 44 seat Bus variant.
Guernseybus may have moved the entrance to the front, which I will come back to later, but as can be seen from the insert shot the staircase was only moved towards the centre of the bus and the stairs went rearwards.
