Category: Photos

Manchester Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – UNB 629 – 3629

Manchester Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - UNB 629 - 3629

Manchester Corporation
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
1959
Metro-Cammell H44/33F

I feel prompted to make a first contribution to your fascinating forum after stumbling across it whilst looking for information concerning the jointly operated Stockport/Manchester Corporations’ Service 16 Chorlton – Stepping Hill.
I was born in Chorlton, attended the grammar school there and recall the day my mother took me for a trip to Stockport on the newly introduced Service 16 on what, to me, was an unusual and interesting single decker with a central exit/entrance. Manchester had no such curiosities (the Royal Tiger ‘Crush Loaders’ with their central doors were still years away and the single deck Leyland (TS5?) used on Service 22 Levenshulme – Eccles was a back loader of sorts.
Little did I know then that I should have the thrill of driving a Royal Tiger on Service 22 myself some 12 or 13 years hence!
All this underlines my love of anything relating to Manchester buses from the period 1958 to 1989 when I finally put my pen away and began drawing my pension. Having worked alongside John Hodkinson in Devonshire Street’s Traffic Office, I was delighted to see his contribution on the piece about jointly operated Service 95/96. In fact it was this that prompted to make contact.
Above is the shiny new Atlantean 3629 at Parker Street on it’s maiden outing, it had spent many weeks in Birchfields Road Garage with the rest of the delivery whilst Union issues were resolved. I remember seeing them there, looking so forlorn, becoming increasingly covered in dust as the weeks dragged by. They had to be put through the wash before going on the road!

Photograph and Copy contributed by David Cooper

10/07/14 – 07:12

David, your piece has brought back many memories of the period when the Evening News had regular articles on the dispute (allegedly sought by management by detailing the vehicles for Northenden depot routes where strong union opposition was expected) and the paper dubbed the vehicles Red Dragons -heaven knows why.
Whilst the majority may have been gathering dust in Birchfields Rd, there were forays driven by management and inspectors. A number of runs were done down Wilmslow Rd during rush hour mornings for some reason, to the bemusement of many a prospective passenger, and one particular day three of the buses were parked at the side of Northenden depot on the public road.
Once the unions and management found agreement the buses entered service on the Wythenshawe routes, then the 50 to Brooklands before moving to Parrs Wood where lower mid panels were often grazed at the tight left turn at the bottom of the ramp!
If I can help with info about the 16 please ask.

Phil Blinkhorn

10/07/14 – 09:55

David I worked with John 1973 – 1975 at Princess Road Depot. Princess Road Depot like so many of the old Manchester Corporation/City Transport depots now gone.

Stephen Howarth

10/07/14 – 11:31

It’s a small world. I too worked with John Hodkinson briefly whilst a Schedules Clerk at Frederick Road, Salford in 1972/73. There were five of us in the Schedules Office – David Broadbent in charge, John, Peter Caunt, George Boswell and myself. I was the lowly junior, the only ‘foreigner’, who commuted every day across from ‘the dark side’ of the moors in Halifax. Incredibly all five of us were enthusiasts, with yet another – the late Keith Healey – working downstairs, it was a wonderful atmosphere to work in – sometimes it seemed more like a hobby than a job. I then took up the position of Traffic Clerk with the Corporation in my home town. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but it was the complete opposite of what I had experienced at SELNEC and boy did I quickly come to regret it!

John Stringer

10/07/14 – 14:05

I’ve done that more than once, John, with both musical and teaching posts. When I’ve arrived at the new job, it’s been a poison chalice. “Beware of what you wish for …..”

David Oldfield

11/07/14 – 06:55

John and I have exchanged notes of our experiences in the Halifax Traffic Office. In 1964 I travelled 200 miles to take up that job, but the atmosphere was such that I quit within two years. That was 10 years or so before John gave it a go, so it shows how deep seated was the malaise in the place. The Halifax GM might have been a ‘character’, but the tunnel vision at senior subordinate levels was utterly dispiriting.

Roger Cox

11/07/14 – 06:55

There were also a couple of times when I went out of the frying pan etc………………..also!

Chris Hebbron

11/07/14 – 06:56

Phil, such intimate knowledge of the entrance to Parrs Wood Depot via the ramp suggests to me that you might have had personal experience. You have certainly roused my curiosity, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
The early Fleetlines and Atlanteans were, in my view, nowhere near as enjoyable to drive as a back loader.
Most disturbing factor was the relative absence of sound from the engine. It all seemed and of course was, so remote from the ‘sharp end’. And then there was that awful ‘yaw’ (for want of a better word) that resulted from traversing a series of gullies with the nearside wheels. So much easier to control it when driving a conventional bus.
I never got to drive a GM ‘Standard’. Perhaps they had had all the initial quirks ironed out?
Those names from the Frederick Road Schedules Office certainly took me back, John. I worked with almost all those guys at some stage or other, though left Devonshire Street in 1972, returning in 1974 after a sojourn in the Hotel business. John H. could always be relied upon to provide the answers whenever we Mancunians needed to know something with a Salford bias. And I seem to remember he had an affinity with a certain Devon-based coaching operation!!
I could reminisce all night but I can almost hear the yawns.

TWA 520

To close, here is a shot taken at the back of Hyde Road Works of 3520 awaiting disposal. She never looked right to me in Selnec livery but was a fascinating bus to drive – usually on Service 1 – Gatley.

David Cooper

11/07/14 – 11:31

David, my knowledge of the ramp at Parrs Wood comes from regular observation over the period from 1958 to 1965 when I would disembark from what was originally the #1 outside the depot to walk across Kingsway to take the #9,#16 or #80 to home on the way back from school. I also had irregular access to the depot through an friend’s neighbour who was an inspector.

3520 looks forlorn in your photo. It looked at its best when on the #1 in original livery, immaculate as Parrs Wood always turned out its star performers, and sounding more like an RT than a PD2.
A few more observations about this batch of Atlanteans. They were delivered with thin, low back seats which were non standard. The rear wheel discs, standard on new deliveries at the time, were absent – probably to the relief of the fitters. Was Albert Neal compensating for the extra weight of the longer bus and higher passenger capacity in his continual fight to keep costs down? Whatever the reason, the next foray into rear engined buses, Fleetlines delivered in 1962, had standard seats and rear wheel discs. The Atlanteans were re-seated with standard seats from withdrawn Burlingham trolleybuses around 1966.
Some drivers complained about the intrusion of both conductors and passengers into their workspace. Another driver complaint was lack of nearside visibility. There were signs instructing passengers not to stand on the platform area, something many did on back loaders after leaving their seat on approach to their stop, but the habit died hard. A more permanent annoyance for the drivers was the door construction with two part windows in each folding leaf, giving a restricted view to the left – and the doors would not open when in gear. The Fleetlines had full length glass in each leaf.
Schoolboys quickly learned where the emergency engine stop was. Located above the bustle on the nearside, it was in reach and many a stop near schools became prolonged until authority in the shape of inspectors and head teachers jointly overcame the problem.
Manchester took a long time to be convinced about the rear engine layout. Combined with the City of Manchester Police’s antipathy to 30ft buses in the city centre, it was nothing short of a revolution when the Mancunian appeared, just ten short years after 3629 and its sisters.

Phil Blinkhorn

13/07/14 – 06:54

Wow, may I join the reunion party please? I also worked at Devonshire Street, with David Cooper, David Broadbent and George Boswell among others. However, I was at the other end of the office, beyond Fred Thomas’s goldfish bowl, wherein he sat smoking his pipe and giggling to himself about the latest traffic absurdity. After three years on the lowest grade I was told that there was no prospect of promotion in the foreseeable future (which I can’t understand now, because we all knew that SELNEC was coming, and that changed everything). Basically it was dead men’s shoes and no-one was thinking of dying, so if you wanted to get on you had to move around. So I moved to Newport, which proved to be my poisoned chalice, and after five months I left the transport industry for good.
The photo of a brand new Atlantean on the 101 stand reinforces a memory I’ll never forget. The 13-year-old me was so gobsmacked by these things that I just stood there while the entire 101 allocation came and went and the first one came back again. I suppose I could have got on one, but I had no idea where Greenbrow Road was.

David, you may like to look at www.sct61.org.uk/index/operator/mn

Peter Williamson

13/07/14 – 09:26

Hi All! Maybe this page should be titled “Old Boys Club”!
Comments have referred to the ramp into Parrs Wood. When the guard-walking-in-front-of-the-bus type smog used to come down, the garage staff used to keep one bay clear inside the depot so the cars that had faithfully followed the bus to find their way home, found themselves inside the depot instead and needed to get out!

John Hodkinson

13/07/14 – 18:22

Peter, that SCT.61 site was new to me (I don’t get out much these days!) and I found it totally absorbing – rather like ‘The Manchester Bus’ but with the superfluous bits left out. Many thanks.

David Cooper

14/07/14 – 07:46

Here’s a link to how 3520 looks nowadays – much happier but evidently suffering from delusions of Hyde Roadness. www.flickr.com/photos/

Peter Williamson

14/07/14 – 09:53

Apart from the blinds, that could be 3520 on any day of its first couple of years in service.

Phil Blinkhorn

14/07/14 – 17:25

Like John I had a “couldn’t believe my eyes” moment when I first saw an Atlantean. It was an exciting day in 1960. I had just passed my “eleven plus” and as a reward my mum bought me my first “Combined volume” loco spotting book. We made the purchase in the city centre when changing buses en route to visit relatives. We just missed the #101, which was one of the usual 44xx Daimlers so we stood waiting for the next one, which turned out to be my first sighting of an Atlantean. On seeing the flat front, my first thought was “How did a trolleybus get away from the wires?” but then I noticed the number – 3627 – so it was obviously a Leyland. And we were going to ride on it, two bits of excitement in one day! I couldn’t wait for our return journey that evening, but to my great disappointment it was just another CVG6. A few weeks later we made another visit, riding on 3630 and 3628, but after that they disappeared from the #101.
In the autumn of 1963 I noticed an occasional Atlantean running through Middleton, my home town, with “special” on the blinds. These were driver training runs before the batch was transferred to Queens Road Garage, at first on the #163 but soon moving to the #121. I became a regular traveller on the #121 in the school holidays, just for the pleasure of riding on these buses. I always went for the inward facing front seat, which offered not only good forward vision but also a chance to watch the driver.
In later life, some of the batch had minor differences. 3621 had “LEYLAND” spelt across the rear bonnet in separate letters (I believe this one also had an O.680 engine at one point), 3626 had a much newer steering wheel with a slightly different design, and our friend 3629 was only a 77 seater while all the others seated 78, the difference being the inward facing front seat which was a treble on most of the batch, but a double on 3629. Finally, 3624 was the only example to receive Selnec livery.
Eighteen months later Queens Road Depot got the first of the PDR1/2 Atlanteans (3721-35) for the #163, but these were very different sounding, thanks to their Daimler gearboxes.

Don McKeown

Coventry Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – CDU 348B – 348

Coventry Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - CDU 348B - 348Coventry Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - CDU 348B - 348

Coventry Corporation
1965
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Willowbrook H44/32F

This is one of a batch of 22 very contentious Leyland Atlanteans with Willowbrook H44/32F bodies delivered to Coventry Transport in January 1965, the issue being that they were Leylands delivered to the home city of Daimler who since the war had been almost the only supplier of buses to the company. The order may have been made to apply some pressure to Daimler for some reason which appears to have been successful as a similar batch of Fleetlines with near identical bodies were delivered within six months these were followed by more Fleetlines with ECW and then East Lancs bodies until the mid seventies, I think one of the Atlanteans appeared at the 1964 Earls Court show.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

20/07/14 – 17:32

In Commercial Motor magazine dated 11th September 1964 the following report was published.

cov_atl

“Leyland Motors Ltd. has introduced a new version of the Atlantean rear-engined chassis which is fitted with a drop-centre rear axle, permitting a straight-through, stepless gangway in the lower saloon.
Delivery is now being made to Coventry Corporation of 22 buses of this type, fitted with 76-seat bodies by Willowbrook Ltd. Overall height of the new vehicles is 14 ft. 0 in. unladen, 4 in, less than the normal ‘highbridge’ Atlantean, yet ample headroom is still provided in each saloon.
One of Coventry’s new Atlanteans will be shown on the Willowbrook stand at the Commercial Motor Show, and several other examples employing the new chassis will also be seen. Side and front elevations of the new Willowbrook bodied Atlantean are shown in the accompanying drawing. Ample luggage space is a feature of this body.”

Stephen Howarth

21/07/14 – 07:26

Dave, if your theory is correct then the issue with Daimler may well have been price. I have heard that Salford’s change of allegiance from Daimler to Leyland in 1963 was for that reason, although they of course never went back.

Peter Williamson

21/07/14 – 07:27

Could the idea be sold in Coventry, then, Stephen, because the Atlanteans had Daimler running gear and the great BL meltdown had begun? Or am I wrong?
These do look like uglibus candidates- I haven’t seen one, but Yorkshire Traction had some…. www.flickr.com/photos/  
The glass fibre fronts & domes look like add on body kits. Interestingly the Coventry examples look distinctly under ventilated, whilst Tracky go to the other extreme.

Joe

21/07/14 – 07:29

These Atlanteans were of the newly introduced PDR1/2 model which was fitted with a Daimler dropped centre rear axle and gearbox, which was intended to facilitate lowheight bodywork without the need for a sunken side gangway at the rear, which was a feature of early lowbridge Atlanteans based on the PDR1/1 model. I don’t think Coventry had any need of lowbridge vehicles, but the inclusion of Daimler components would have standardisation benefits when the fleet later included Fleetlines. Presumably this was always the intention. Manchester Corporation also bought the PDR1/2 model (132 of them) alongside their 130 Fleetlines with MCW “Orion” bodies. I always thought these had a rather odd mixture of sound effects.
Many years later, I would drive Daimler Fleetlines with Leyland Engines (bought by Crosville from Southdown) which felt more like Atlanteans than Fleetlines, the engine sound on these tended to dominate the gearbox sound. These buses also had direct air gearchange and a step from the platform to the lower deck – both “Atlanteanish” features.
I thought these Willowbrook bodies were a very attractive design, enhanced by the Coventry livery. They introduced a more conventionally shaped service number blind, after years of the rather odd arrangement with equally sized and shaped destination and service number screens.

Don McKeown

21/07/14 – 15:21

At the time of the order Daimler was an independent company that was part of the Jaguar group along with Guy. At the time Leyland Motors was a very profitable concern it all went pear shaped after the shot gun marriage between them and BMC in the late sixties. Although Leyland were already being starting to give the industry what they wanted and not the other way round.

Chris Hough

21/07/14 – 15:28

When Coventry issued the tender for this order, they specified a low floor design, presumably thinking that only Daimler could deliver such a vehicle. However Leyland, no doubt spotting the opportunity to sell to Daimler’s home city hastily put together their own low floor design. They won the order on price but delivery was delayed by development problems. This is not the livery that these buses carried at delivery. The maroon was originally only applied to the lower skirt, a band above the lower windows, another below the upper windows and the roof. The destination blinds also differed, as shown on the blueprint image.

John McSparron

22/07/14 – 06:53

The Yorkshire Traction vehicle shown in the link above was one of four that were diverted from a Devon General order, indeed they entered service in Devon General livery and ran in that form for some time.
Before eventually finishing up in the nondescript NBC colours shown in the photo they did run in traditional YTC Livery of BET crimson and light cream, a combination that really suited this bodywork.

Andrew Charles

22/07/14 – 06:54

Most sources say that although the PDR1/2 did have a Daimler gearbox, the drop-centre rear axle was the Albion Lowlander unit rather than the one from the Fleetline.
With regard to the odd sound effects in Manchester, the only engine officially offered in the PDR1/2 was the O600, since the Daimler gearbox, at that early stage in its history, couldn’t take the extra torque of the O680 in Atlantean fettle. However, Manchester wanted O680 engines for durability rather than extra power, and specified a specially derated version at 130bhp. This may account for their subdued and breathy engine note, which allowed the gearbox to sing more prominently than in some other applications.

Peter Williamson

I am sure that Peter W is correct that the PDR1/2 was fitted with a Daimler (‘Daimatic’) gearbox, but not axle.
Further to Don McK, I don’t recall that the inclusion of a Daimler gearbox in the PDR1/2 was a consideration in the decision to buy it – the decision was based solely upon a significantly lower tender price from Leyland, and, even then, the order was placed only after furious council debate.
I’ve always presumed that Leyland deliberately tendered low in order to capitalise on the potential publicity, and this it certainly did – for several months, for instance, there was a standing advertisement on the rear cover of ‘Buses Illustrated’, the message of which was ‘Coventry, home to the British motor industry, chooses Leyland..’, or words to that effect. Leyland did, at least, acknowledge that Coventry, and not Leyland, was home to the British motor industry, and its advertising strategy seems to have failed to impress, since I think the Fleetline comfortably outsold the PDR1/2, the latter proving problematic.

David Call

25/07/14 – 12:19

This style of body by Willowbrook had a very long life it was used as late as 1976 to re-body a bus damaged in the Derby depot fire.

Chris Hough

26/07/14 – 06:42

I would challenge the theory that the Daimler gearbox in the Atlantean PDR1/2 could not cope with the torque of the O.680 engine. At that time, the standard Atlantean setting for the O.680 was 150 bhp at 2000 rpm, with a maximum torque of 485 lb ft at 1000 rpm. The corresponding figures for the contemporary 6LX were 150 bhp at 1700 rpm, and 485 lb ft torque at 1050 rpm. Thus the Gardner delivered identical output at rather lower rpm. Any derating of the O.680 in the Atlantean PDR1/2 must have been undertaken for economy reasons, bearing in mind that the Leyland engine required an extra 300 rpm to produce the same power as the Gardner. Reducing the governed speed of the O.680 to 1700 rpm would have reduced the output to 130 bhp.

Roger Cox

27/07/14 – 06:41

I don’t think any early Fleetlines had 6LXs rated at 150bhp. Manchester’s were rated at 132bhp, presumably with a corresponding reduction in torque, and I thought at the time that that was the standard Fleetline rating. But if the reduction in the O.680’s power was taken care of by simply lowering the governed speed, then I agree that there would be no reduction in torque there.
The idea that the PDR1/2 wasn’t offered with the O.680 option must have come from somewhere, and the Daimler gearbox certainly was strengthened before the CRL6 Fleetline came on the market. Perhaps someone just put two and two together and created a bit of folklore.

Peter Williamson

08/10/15 – 07:13

Talk about being late to the party!
According to “The Leyland Bus Mk2” (D. Jack) page 325, the O.680 engine was “not available in the PDR1/2, owing to torque limitations on the rear axle”. The same page confirms it carried the Lowlander rear axle.

Allan White

09/10/15 – 07:18

Better late than never, Allan. All is resolved, I think.

Peter Williamson

20/10/15 – 09:07

CDU 354B

The attached photo shows another of the batch 354, CDU 354B in an unusual location at the rear of PMT Clough Street depot in Hanley (note the broken down PMT lowbridge Atlantean in the background.)
The reason was that PMT had recently installed a Dawson ‘Cyclone’ bus interior cleaner at Hanley Depot in an attempt to improve and speed up nightly interior cleaning. The unit was a massive vacuum cleaner with a bellows which was pushed out to the bus entrance by pneumatic rams, it was switched on and hey presto all the loose rubbish within the bus was sucked into the cleaner. A man with an air lance entered by the emergency door and agitated the less willing items of rubbish into the air stream. Coventry were interested in the concept and on 25th March 1971 sent up 354 (maybe with the previous days rubbish still on the bus??) to see how it performed. As the vacuum plant was situated immediately before the bus wash, a trip through the wash was necessary hence the photo.

Ian Wild

21/10/15 – 06:37

Brilliant, Ian!

Pete Davies

23/10/15 – 06:28

It was a long time ago Pete and I can’t remember how reliable the machine was. It can’t have been exclusive to PMT, does anyone know of other Operators who had one? I do recall that we had to cut apertures at odd places inside the buses eg at floor level in the offside partition at the top of the staircase. It can’t have been much fun inside the bus in a force 8 gale!! I don’t recall losing any seat cushions…..

Ian Wild

23/10/15 – 16:37

Trent Motor Traction at Meadow Road Derby, and United Automobile Services had them. Whether this was at all Depots I do not know.
Malcolm Hitchin MBE in his book ‘Keep the Wheels Turning’, recounting his 50 years in Trent engineering, mentions, that very early on after having the system installed, that, if they did not open the emergency door, before starting the vacuum, then it was possible that the pressure from the vacuum could suck in the bus windows.

Stephen Howarth

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

12/11/15 – 14:23

Think these units actually had a self changing gear semi automatic box not a Daimatic.
Reason for the purchase of Leylands was that Daimler thinking they had a monopoly put in a price and refused to negotiate even when Leyland put the lower price in. There was much heated debate in the Council Transport Committee meetings and when the order was placed with Leyland there was a lot of aggressive words from Daimler Trade Unions. The follow-on order for Daimlers was placed before the Leylands were delivered.
I made it a task to ride on all the vehicles from both batches and upstairs they had for Coventry 3 single seats behind each other on the nearside.
Willowbrook did not make a good job of the body with lots of water ingress from very early on manifesting itself in brown streaks across the upside dome.
Body vibration was much more pronounced on the Leylands and from both batches I remember being stranded with linkage failures to the engine from the semi gearbox which I presume was pneumatic pipes working loose.
Full buses in rush hour running every 6 minutes dumping a full load in between stops was not a great experience for getting to school on time.
I ended up switching routes to one which had rear loaders just for reliability and avoiding of school detentions

Roger Burdett

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – CWB 346B – 346

Sheffield Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - CWB 346B - 346

Sheffield Corporation
1964
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Neepsend H44/33F

Nice body – pity about the chassis! Neepsend produced a striking looking body (ok, I know – it was an East Lancs design) for the 20 buses delivered in 1964/5 plus a further 20 in 1966. I rather preferred this first batch with the red upholstery and red wheel centres. They also combined sliding windows and rotovents in the top deck. They were regular performers on the cross city 82 service. 348 of this batch had  ducted air saloon heating as a trial, later to become almost universal, as opposed to the underseat heaters of the remainder of the batch. The bus is in Fargate, Sheffield, nowadays pedestrianised but many of the buildings are still there.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

02/03/15 – 07:32

Did Sheffield Corporation specify the PDR1/2 chassis in order to provide more headroom on both decks, in the same manner as the Nottingham Renowns? It’s difficult to tell from the photograph but this vehicle doesn’t look to be low height.

Chris Barker

04/03/15 – 15:45

These were 14ft 3in if memory serves me right. They were designed to fit under a low bridge at Darfield on the 70 to Upton. There were special instructions in the Drivers Handbook about both batches.

Neil Hudson

04/03/15 – 15:45

Manchester Corporation had 132 of the PDR1/2 model. At the time it was thought that this was for reasons of standardisation, in that the gearbox was the same as on the many Fleetlines in the fleet. These vehicles had Metro-Cammell “Orion” bodies to an intermediate height of 14 feet and half an inch. They sounded very different from PDR1/1 Atlanteans, the gearbox whine being very prominent.

Don McKeown

05/03/15 – 07:11

It seems a bit unlikely that Sheffield would have bought 40 A fleet buses to a special reduced height for a B service requiring perhaps two buses. I suspect that it was coincidental that they happened to fit under the bridge on route 70 but maybe a Sheffield expert can confirm this.

Ian Wild

06/03/15 – 06:41

During my time in Sheffield in the 1960s and 70s, there were three routes which required low-height double deckers – service 70 to Upton (a C route) and B routes 6 and 19 to Dinnington. The C fleet had no suitable double deckers but only one bus was needed on service 70 (joint operator Yorkshire Traction normally used saloons). All three routes were served by the B fleet’s lowbridge Regents and later by Bridgemasters from the A fleet, in which fleet there was no requirement for low-height deckers! A lot of mileage balancing must have gone on. I’ve no recollection of the Neepsend Atlanteans being so used and I’m fairly sure a saloon was used on 70 by the time I left the area in 1975.

Geoff Kerr

07/03/15 – 07:14

My understanding of the Manchester PDR1/2 situation is that there was a low(ish) bridge on a service to Partington (222/223) which was run jointly with North Western. When this service first started, MCTD didn’t have any buses to put on it. They didn’t like the idea of being a ghost operator, but neither did they like the idea of buying special buses for one route. So they changed their standard spec for both Atlantean and Fleetline bodies to the intermediate height, which required the use of the PDR1/2 chassis for the Atlanteans. All subsequent double deckers were built to this height until the Mancunians appeared.

Peter Williamson

07/03/15 – 17:14

Peter, am I right in thinking that this arrangement meant the Atlanteans and Fleetlines shared a common drive train.

Phil Blinkhorn

08/03/15 – 06:54

Phil, the PDR1/2 used the Daimler concentric drive gearbox of the Fleetline in conjunction with the dropped centre axle from the Lowlander. Daimler used its own dropped centre rear axle.

Roger Cox

08/03/15 – 16:12

Thanks Roger

Phil Blinkhorn

25/03/15 – 16:24

I think they also operated from Bridge St. on the Shiregreen route, 47 or 48? They were always parked by Firth Park shops.

Andy Fisher

Ribble – Leyland Atlantean – RRN 407 – 1807

RRN 407_2

Ribble Motor Services
1962
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Weymann “Orion” L39/33F

Ribble bought a hundred early Atlanteans with MCW “Orion” bodywork in 1959/60, seventy highbridge and thirty lowbridge. These were followed by a reversion to the Titan model, with ninety five PD3/5’s with Metro-Camell “Orion” fully fronted bodies in 1961/2. These were followed by fourteen lowbridge Atlanteans, including this one, which proved to be the last PDR1/1 to enter the fleet. Subsequently Titans and Lowlanders were bought, followed by fully lowheight PDR1/2 Atlanteans. It was generally thought that Ribble preferred the Titan but used Atlanteans for lowbridge/lowheight vehicles.
The original version of the Atlantean Chassis had a dropped-centre front axle, and a “normal” rear axle. This meant that the lowheight body could be built with “normal” seating at the front, but at the rear a side gangway arrangement was necessary. The last four rows of seats were thus on a raised platform, in four passenger benches, but with the gangway on the nearside – the opposite side from the conventional lowbridge double-decker. This photo was taken in the twilight years of the bus, which is wearing the NBC poppy red livery rather than the traditional cherry red livery used by Ribble for so many years. Despite it’s age it was being one-man-operated on an extremely long journey.
1807 is seen here passing through Troutbeck Bridge on the almost legendary service 555, heading from Keswick to Lancaster. This lengthy route still runs, still operated by double-deckers, passing through the Lake District – surely one of England’s most scenic bus routes.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

05/03/15 – 07:13

Very nice, Don. Thanks for posting. This route used to be the 68 when I first took an interest in buses [in my secondary school days in Lancaster] – I’m not sure when it was renumbered to 555.

Pete Davies

Thanks for posting Don. I know the area fairly well having stayed in Troutbeck Bridge a time or two.
To Pete, If it helps, I have just consulted my Ribble Area No 1 timetable, dated 30th September 1963 and under Table 50 it shows these services :-
Service 68, Keswick to Lancaster
Service 70 Kendal to Lancaster
Service 555 Keswick to Kendal
So 555 was shown in use at that time, be it for only part of the route, with 555 journeys shown separately as either between Ambleside & Keswick or between Kendal and Ambleside, but strangely for the most part they did not connect !

Mike Norris

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – 655 BWB – 225

Sheffield Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - 655 BWB - 225

Sheffield Corporation
1962
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Metro Cammell H44/33F

This bus was one of a batch of nine supplied new to the B fleet as fleet number 1355. This batch were extensively used from new on service 41 to Hackenthorpe where there was a large new housing development. They were the first rear engined double deckers for the B fleet and were the final batch with rear destination displays before reversion to rear route numbers only.
Following the absorption of the B fleet in 1970, the bus was renumbered to 225. Here it is seen at Fulwood terminus of service 88 which replaced the former tram route. Fulwood was the elegant part of the City! The date was 26th August 1973, the bus looks smart and as always the Sheffield livery helped to disguise the box shape of early rear engined deckers. It carries the final pre PTE fleetname introduced I think by General Manager Noel Macdonald. It still has a full set of Leyland wheel embellishers although eleven years old. Note the Sheffield bus stop flag, quite distinctive in the days before the nationally standardised type.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

03/08/15 – 16:06

I always thought the original Atlantean and Fleetline designs from the MCW group had a certain symmetry that was lost with the later moves to graft on curved or vee windscreens and peaked domes which always looked like a bit of a lash up to me. Yes the design was ‘boxy’ but it was simple seemed to work. The PRV/Roe early incarnations though were absolutely dreadful with the top heavy Bridgemaster upper deck characteristics. Of all the body builders on the early rear-engined buses only Alexander really got it right with the Glasgow design.

Philip Halstead

04/08/15 – 06:54

I agree with Philip regarding the style of the early MCW Atlantean/Fleetline bodywork.
I have always thought it to be a rather good, quite attractive design which was most appropriate for the then ground breaking rear engined buses.

David Slater

05/08/15 – 06:20

But are these wheels with their embellishers red- as they should be- or blue, reputed to have been in “celebration” of a rare & brief Conservative takeover of the city council in 1968? Bit of history here.

Joe

wheel

Best I can do I’m afraid.

06/08/15 – 05:49

Both red AND blue would you say? Red centre on a blue wheel?

Joe

06/08/15 – 15:37

I lived at Hackenthorpe when these were introduced. What a revelation they were replacing the AEC batch 190 -198. 1261-1263 + Leylands 159-161. At eve rush hour when full standing by the driver you would marvel at the gear changing (a lollipop in a fag pkt). When new as joint omnibus fleet they did not carry the city’s coat of arms! When did 225 receive it? Must say it wasn’t long before I missed the wonderful exhaust note of the AECs!!!
NB I am collecting photos of any buses on the 41 route in 50s/60s if anyone can help?

David Grant

07/08/15 – 17:06

I preferred the Park Royal body from around the same period.

Andy Fisher

02/09/15 – 07:06

I also lived at Hackenthorpe when 1350-1358 were new.
The upper deck of 1357 was totally destroyed in a fire in the late 60s, while operating on the 41 to Hackenthorpe. It received a new Park Royal body and re-entered service in 1968.

Martyn Else

Devon General – Leyland Atlantean – 901 DTT – DL901

Devon General - Leyland Atlantean - 901 DTT - DL901

Devon General Omnibus & Touring Co Ltd
1960
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Roe H44/31F

The ugly lines of the Park Royal inspired Roe bodies on the early Atlantean chassis are barely disguised by the Devon General livery in this photo taken in Teignmouth on a sunny day in July 1973. I suppose we should be thankful that it hasn’t yet succumbed to the insipid NBC poppy red colour scheme.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

04/01/16 – 06:27

I’ve seen plenty of examples of poorly located bus stops, but this one looks to be an extremely challenging stop to catch a bus from!

petras409

04/01/16 – 06:28


Copyright Unknown

Ian, I think a lot of the problem with the appearance of DL901 arises from the over-zealous use of front facing advertising literature coupled with the opening front lights which really squash up the windows. Sheffield had half a dozen similar Roe-bodied Atlanteans which I personally find quite pleasing to the eye bearing in mind it was early days for mass produced rear engine machines.

John Darwent

04/01/16 – 09:44

I think the stop in question was only for top-loaders, ie, those of “O (seating) (doorway)” layout.

Pete Davies

04/01/16 – 09:45

petras409 makes a fair point about the bus stop, if it is for the road on which 901 is travelling, but I think it could be positioned for buses using the road where the people (possibly aging bus spotters marking off numbers in their Ian Allan fleet book) are sitting. Perhaps a member of this site knows the location in question, and if buses traverted/traverse that section of road.
In today’s more disability conscious world I doubt if that bench would be allowed to be placed in the middle of the footpath.

Stephen Howarth

04/01/16 – 16:43

As suggested, the surroundings are more puzzling than the bus! As John D says, the design of early rear engined decker bodies was very much based on function, as Roe designs generally always were. Peaks, glass fibre mouldings, one piece windscreens and fairings came later. This bus has its traits exaggerated by- possibly- the camera angle and the white roof, plus as noted, the window vents. The interesting bit is the bus stop sign and the bench! Possibly the road was not wide enough for two buses of this width to pass (and had only one pavement?) and perhaps there was a one way system for them with a bus stop opposite the seat… but did people sit with their backs to the road? What was the view that demanded a seat to see it, over a busy, noisy main road? Odd.

Joe

04/01/16 – 16:44

The location is on the outskirts of Teignmouth, and the Atlantean is just descending the “ramp” to Shaldon Bridge, where it would cross the Teign, before heading off along the clifftop run to Maidencombe, St Marychurch and Torquay (present day route 11). The stop certainly relates to the road on the left, which is the main road to Newton Abbot – present day route 2 from Exeter via Exminster, Dawlish, Teignmouth – a journey that takes an hour and three-quarters, every 20 minutes throughout the day.

Stephen Ford

04/01/16 – 16:45

I think that the bus is taking the approach to the T’mouth to Shaldon Bridge and the road on the left is the one to Newton Abbott.
It is feasible that there was at that time a stop on both roads explaining the white sign to the left of the pole but the orange rectangle to the right of the pole doesn’t look like a bus stop sign.
The seat is, as you say, in the middle of the pavement but is facing that way because that is the view across the estuary.

John Lomas

05/01/16 – 06:03

The bus 901 is on the road to Shaldon via a road bridge and en route to Torquay via the coast road. The bus spotters or tourist are looking out over the River Teign from beside the bus stop for the number 2 to Newton Abbot which goes along beside the River, on the top road. A great shot of 901 in our traditional colours.

Iain

05/01/16 – 06:04

Thank you, Stephen and John, for informing us about the location. Has the stop been declared busy enough or exposed enough to warrant a shelter? One with a normal-sized roof must surely try attaching itself to any “unwary” vehicles coming the other way, up the hill. As my shelter supplier used to say, “It needs a fence panel with an ironing board as a roof.”

Pete Davies

05/01/16 – 06:05

I always thought that Devon General’s livery was superb. The Metro-Cammell bodied Atlanteans were far more attractive than these, especially when viewed from the rear.

Don McKeown

05/01/16 – 15:46

Here’s the approximate location on Streetview : https://www.google.co.uk/maps/

Stephen Ford

05/01/16 – 17:07

As seen in Stephen’s Google link, the site of the old bus stop is shown by the concrete post still standing near the seat just a few yards down from the present stop.

John Darwent

06/01/16 – 05:43

Although not too clear, there is also a bench in the same place as before, but facing the road this time, with not so impressive a view as before!

Chris Hebbron

06/01/16 – 05:44

Nice shot, even to the point of the Austin A40 (seen heading away from camera) being in matching colours to the bus. An extraordinary coincidence!

Grahame Arnold

06/01/16 – 16:38

The problem with this body design is that the upper deck windows are relatively shallow, and are also set high relative to the general level of the roof (i.e. the roof is also shallow). This ruins the proportions of the bus as a whole, particularly in the case of full height vehicles, and also has the additional disadvantage that the upper deck windows are too high set for small children to see out. I don’t think the opening front windows really make a difference, but the layout of the colours of the DG livery is not really flattering in this case.
The upper deck structure appears to be the same as those infamous Leyland Titans that Southampton CT purchased in the early 1960s, and it also looks the same as that on the early Weymann/MCW lowheight Atlanteans. The lower vehicles looked more acceptable, because the proportions were better balanced, with equal depth windows on the lower deck.
There may be good practical and functional reasons for having shallower windows on the upper deck, but the outward appearance can be compromised. The MCW Orion suffered in this respect, but at least the upper deck windows were set lower, and the deeper roof improved the overall look, compared to these PRV/Roe vehicles.

Nigel Frampton

07/01/16 – 06:15

Nigel, I have often wondered whether the shallower windows on the upper deck of such vehicles was an attempt by the bodybuilder(s) to standardise the upper deck structure for both lowbridge and highbridge models. Upper deck framing, window glasses, window rubbers, emergency exits and front and rear domes would then be identical regardless of overall height. Also, given that front and rear domes were increasingly being fabricated from GRP around that time, perhaps utilising only one shape for the front and one for the back would have made production easier, and/or reduced costs. The influence of the BET Group on bus design should not be underestimated either, and may well have played a part in some designs having a similar ‘look’, despite being from different bodybuilders. These are just thoughts mind.

Brendan Smith

07/01/16 – 06:18

John D – that’s a superb shot of Sheffield 945, looks as though it was brand new when photographed. Thanks for posting. Nigel, I’d not related the shallower roof of the Roe vs the MCW versions of the bodies on early Atlanteans – that makes the difference.

Ian Wild

08/01/16 – 06:42

I don’t have any records on Devon General’s early Roe bodied Atlanteans, but a shufti on Ebay and Flickr have thrown up interesting anomalies. Amongst the photos of the batch which are subject of this thread, are those of 898 898 DTT, 905 DTT and 901 901 DTT which are shown with the opening front windows on the upper deck and the destination indicator in a mid position between decks. Also shown are pictures of 908 908 DTT and 901 901 DTT (again) but without opening front windows and with the destination indicator moved to a much lower position. The latter two pictures show the buses with the awful NBC red. So, the question is, was there a partial rebuilding programme of this batch?

John Darwent

08/01/16 – 06:44

Brendan, I believe that you are correct. I have certainly seen the suggestion that the PRV/Roe bodies with shallow upper deck windows came about as a result of BET pressure on costs repeated elsewhere. Standardisation obviously brings benefits, and it certainly wasn’t invented by the NBC! The Tilling/BTC/THC group managed it as well, but with a lot more style than these PRV upper decks.
I presume, and I guess that you can confirm this, that there will be more common parts than just the windows themselves, but presumably some elements of the framework under the skin as well? As far as I can tell, the lengths of the windows on an ECW bodied F-series Lodekka, a VRT and an RELL, were the same, but the depths were different. I suppose, even if it was only the glass, there would still be scope for standardisation of window sliders and hoppers, but I can imagine the operators would have been looking for more.
The kings of window size standardisation seem to have been Ulsterbus. The X type body, fitted to Bristol RELL and Leyland Leopard chassis made extensive use of a standard plain glass, but the last side window was a different shape. The successor body (N type) went even further, using only that standard size, including the window in the rear panel. At around the same time, Ulsterbus were buying several secondhand Bristol REs, and they generally stuck to ECW bodies to ensure standardisation. I recall a comment from the management of the company, during a visit there around 1985, saying that they had also bought one (or possibly more) Bristol RESL-8s from Ribble, and they were most disappointed to find that the windows were a different length!

Nigel Frampton

08/01/16 – 10:49

John D,
The repositioning of the destination boxes on Devon General Atlanteans was the result of One Manning during the 1970s. They had all been delivered with conductor operation in mind, so the destination displays could be changed upstairs, in front of the front seats. Originally, they were nice and clear, with two lines of destination (ultimate and via points), as shown in the picture above.
But, as part of the conversion to OMO, the blind boxes were masked down to a single ultimate display and lowered, so that they could be wound from the diver’s seat.
This gave the front view a very unbalanced aspect and particularly disfigured the lovely Sea Dog convertible Atlanteans, in their cream and maroon reversed livery.
This OMO conversion didn’t affect the upper deck windows, as most of the Atlanteans continued to have opening front windows after the conversion. The pictures you have seen with plain glass may be the result of upper deck repairs following damage.
Western National also bought a large batch of MCW Atlanteans from Maidstone & District and similarly ‘uglyfied’ them too, with lower blind boxes.

Petras409

08/01/16 – 16:59

Petras409. Many thanks for the interesting explanation regarding the changed appearance of some of the batch.

John Darwent

Silver Star – Leyland Atlantean – 1013 MW – 42

Silver Star - Leyland Atlantean - 1013 MW - 42

Silver Star Motor Services  
1962
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Weymann L39/34F

A Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 with Weymann L73F body, joining the fleet of Silver Star, Porton Down near Salisbury, in 1962. This first view shows her on duty in Winchester, during the King Alfred running day on 1 January 2010.

Silver Star - Leyland Atlantean - 1013 MW - 42

I couldn’t resist this second view, as it’s the only time I have seen her addressed to her home. This second view was taken during the rally at Stokes Bay, Gosport, on 3 August 2014.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

13/02/16 – 05:36

A very interesting company who very much traded on transporting National Servicemen around at weekends. Great livery and distinctive ‘roofbox’! The nearside windscreen ventilator is an unusual feature.

Chris Hebbron

13/02/16 – 05:37

I remember three of these (there were four altogether) in Bristol Omnibus service in 1963/4, the others being TMW 853 and VAM 944. I assume Bristol removed the Silver Star fleetname from the dome before repainting. They seemed like a startling innovation among all the FLFs!
The fourth one, XMW 706, had coach seats. The PSV Circle fleet history states that TMW 853 went to the USA.

Geoff Kerr

14/02/16 – 08:56

That’s the first mention I’ve seen of TMW 853 since c.1970. Along with the others it went to Super of Upminster in the late 1960s but quickly passed to Midas Motor Services of Brentwood. Midas ceased to trade not long after that and TMW seemed to fall off the face of the earth.
The other three ex-Silver Star Atlanteans passed from Super to Berresfords in 1967. VAM 944 went to Hale Trent Cakes of Clevedon for staff transport in 2/69 – can anyone confirm that it was subsequently scrapped? I don’t think Hale Trent used it for all that long. XMW 706 was damaged beyond repair in a fire at the Berresfords garage in 9/70, although it apparently hadn’t been used since 8/68.

David Call

28/03/16 – 06:01

TMW 853 was indeed owned by Midas Motor Service who bought it from Super of Upminster in 1966. It was still in the red livery of Bristol Omnibus and the roof dome had been removed. Midas put a new gearbox in it and painted it silver blue and black in 1969 and ceased trading in the early 70s when it did indeed vanish of the face of the earth.

Mr Anon

09/05/16 – 16:51

I remember the excitement of the Atlantean being used to ferry pupils daily from St Helen’s Primary School in Brentwood to the Hutton Poplars children’s home in Hutton. I do not remember it being red though: I remember it as silver-coloured. And was the Bristol livery not green?

Quentin Williamson

04/10/18 – 07:45

Further to my own post of 14/2/16, VAM 944 was, according to ‘Looking Back at Independent Double-Deckers’ (by Andrew Wiltshire), operated by Deeble of Upton Cross, Cornwall, from 1975 to 1978. It’s actually illustrated, in service with Deeble, on the front cover of the said publication. No mention of any further ownership, but eighteen years would have been a reasonable life, I suppose.

David Call

07/03/19 – 08:43

Seeing this startling full frontal of 1013 MW, reminded me that I had a photo somewhere of it.

1013 MW_3

I attach the photo of it in Bristol Omnibus Tilling green (BOC 7999), sans Silver Star top box, in July 1963 in Ashton Park on its way to Weston super Mare. Mr Anon mentions Bristol red livery – really?


Probably on the same day, I snapped its mate TMW 853 (BOC 7997) in Lawrence Hill. As the three Atlanteans and service 24 operated out of Marlborough Street I’m not sure why it was at the Works.
Either before or after this date the three were operating on the Portishead service, then 85, but it is alleged the local youth took to pressing their external engine emergency stop buttons as they climbed some of the severe hills on the route.

Geoff Pullin

08/03/19 – 07:07

I have just noticed that Bristol went to the trouble of changing the steering wheel to white to comply with their practice of using this to indicate that the bus was wider than 7ft 6in wide!

Geoff Pullin

12/05/22 – 10:38

TMW 853 was indeed painted Silver Black and Blue it took me a week to mask it up it was then painted by the owner Ted Dover as was the whole fleet.

Tony Buddin

22/05/22 – 06:44

In response to Geoff comment not all 8ft Bristols had white wheels. Wilts and Dorset had black with a brass plaque stating 8ft wide.

Roger Burdett

King Alfred – Leyland Atlantean – REU 52E/HOR592E

King Alfred - Leyland Atlantean - REU 52E

King Alfred Motor Services
1967
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Roe H43/33F

Here is a Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2 with Roe H76F body, from the fleet of King Alfred Motor Services, Winchester. EU was a Brecknockshire (or Breconshire) registration before 1974, when it passed to Bristol, and King Alfred Motor Services never bought any buses from an operator in that area, so what’s going on? It is really HOR 592E and it has carried VCL 461 as well, but it has reverted to the original plate since I captured this view on 25 April 1993. This was a running day to mark 20 years since the sale of the company to Hants & Dorset.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

03/06/16 – 06:41

HOR 591E

Here is fellow Atlantean HOR 591E seen re entering Winchester on route 11 from Basingstoke in 1970. My first experience of a journey on a Metro Scania (single decker) was on this route in the following year on one of the King Alfred examples. I was not greatly impressed with the rather wallowing standard of ride. R. Chisnell & Sons Ltd, t/a King Alfred Motor Services, ceased operation on 28 April 1973, and the three King Alfred Metro Scanias went to London Country for use on the Stevenage Superbus services. They only lasted until 1977/78, when they were less than seven years old.

Roger Cox

04/06/16 – 06:49

Fellow independents West Riding and South Yorkshire also had Atlaneans with this style of Roe body. All date from around the same time and I’ve often wondered if the small King Alfred and South Yorkshire batches were tagged onto the West Riding order.

Chris Hough

04/06/16 – 06:50

Thanks, Roger. One thing that many cannot understand about KAMS is the continuing use of a number on the destination blind after the introduction of a separate box for the number. I have read that the direction of any particular service was achieved through a simple half turn of the blind, and I’m supposing that it allowed for interchange of blinds between vehicles but, as I noted above, many find it an odd arrangement. The half turn of the blind was useful in a number of cases, such as a series of Hants & Dorset routes from Southampton, where we had Southampton Woodlands, Woodlands Cadnam, Cadnam Nomansland – all very easy for the skilled conductor to do!

Pete Davies

04/06/16 – 06:51

Pete,
King Alfred HOR592E was taken over by Hants & Dorset as number 2304 in 1973. Then passing to Bristol as number 8600 in 1979.
It passed to the newly formed Badgerline in January 1986 still as 8600 (HOR592E), being re-registered to VCL461 in May 1986.
Upon sale by Badgerline in 1990, it was re-registered to REU52E which was issued by Bristol LVLO.

Dave Farrier

05/06/16 – 07:17

In answer to Chrish Hough’s query about the similarity of livery, I suggest a look at Philip Rushworth’s views in respect of the KAMS Renowns. It seems that the good folk at Charles H Roe made more than one mistake!

Pete Davies

05/06/16 – 07:18

I think that the featuring of the route number within the destination display was simply a measure to allow standardisation of the blinds between single and double deck vehicles, and those double deckers that did not have a separate route number box, like the Guy Arab utilities. Once upon a time this practice might have been disparaged as being “overcareful wi’ munnie”, but it has since gone up considerably in the world and is now graced with the name of “Recycling”. There is an informative web page about King Alfred:- www.fokab.org.uk

Roger Cox

05/06/16 – 07:19

King Alfred bought a batch of four of these Roe bodied Atlanteans, as a result of a shrewd purchase, through the continuation of a batch in build for West Riding. HOR 589-592E all passed on to Hants & Dorset and, after four or five years, were transferred to Bristol Omnibus and subsequently Badgerline. 589 was numbered 8603; 590 was 8602; 591 was 8601; and 592 was 8600. Three of them were converted to open top in 1979 for service in Weston-super-Mare and later in Bath. The exception was 591 (8601), which retained its roof and seems to have been used as a driver training vehicle and general engineers’ runabout. I saw 591 at Lawrence Hill many years ago and it looked very down at heel.
In 1983, 589 was scrapped. In the same year, 591 was bought by the Friends of King Alfred Buses as a derelict wreck for £40. It was cosmetically returned to King Alfred condition for the running day in 1984. Subsequently, in 1990, FoKAB bought open top 592, which was in much better condition, both bodily and mechanically. But King Alfred had never operated open top buses, so the decision was taken in 1992 to dispose of 591 and transfer its roof to open top 592. This involved parking the two buses close alongside and all screws and fixtures were undone. Then a gang of volunteers lifted the roof and windows from 591 and slid it across to 592. Then a hasty clamber down the stairs of 591 and up the stairs of 592 to receive the roof and begin the process of fitting the roof. The story goes that, despite the two vehicles being from an identical batch, 591’s roof was about ¾ inch longer than the recipient 592. But it was persuaded into place and the remainder of 591 was scrapped.
592 had been re-registered VCL 461, but this registration was retained by Badgerline and subsequently used on a hybrid drive Mercedes minibus, which was experimentally used in Portsmouth, but that’s another story. So 592 was sold with the temporary registration REU 32E, until its proper HOR 592E could be reassigned.
So what you see in the pictures above are indeed 592, with the roof of 591, during the very short period that it operated without its proper registration. And, the lower picture, of the same roof on 591,but the rest of that bus no longer exists.
Finally, as a tailpiece the remaining member of the batch, 590 was acquired by FoKAB in 1987, but, as there are no more suitable roofs available, that remains in open top condition and is a favourite vehicle for rides around Winchester on sunny days.

Peter Murnaghan

06/06/16 – 06:46

Thank you Roger C and Peter M. It’s always good to read your thoughts. Is Peter M still attending “The Castle” or has he now retired from there? I retired from Southampton about 8 years ago.

Pete Davies

07/06/16 – 07:07

Thanks for your kind words, Pete. Now resident in Liskeard, Peter M was released from captivity in The Castle five years ago.

Peter Murnaghan

Ribble – Leyland Atlantean – RRN 428 – 1279

Ribble - Leyland Atlantean - RRN 428 - 1279
Ribble - Leyland Atlantean - RRN 428 - 1279

Ribble Motor Services
1962
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Weymann CH39/20F

Here are two views of RRN 428, one of Ribble’s ‘second generation’ fleet of “White Ladies”. She is a Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 with Weymann CH59F bodywork – more than on the “Gay Hostess” fleet because there is no toilet, but less than the normal bus seating because the rear seats downstairs are replaced by a luggage area. Note the white opaque windows. She’s in Fleetwood for the Tram Sunday event on 20 July 2003.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

16/08/16 – 07:27

1279 is owned by the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Trust. It is currently undergoing a major overhaul at the Freckleton Base.

Don McKeown

18/08/16 – 06:51

These were used regularly on the X60 from Manchester to Blackpool, and if they left Lower Mosley St with a full “through” load would sometimes go “off route” between Bolton and Preston, using the A675 through Belmont – Ribble actually held a licence to use this stretch of road between Bolton and Preston/Blackpool, although timetabled journeys used the service number X100. The A675 is a lot more curvy and undulating than the official route and the terrain seemed to have an unsettling effect on the White Ladies’ suspension. I’ve never suffered from travel sickness (even as a child), but the ride quality made me queasy and you could guarantee that at least one person would throw up before Preston. The drivers on the other hand seemed to enjoy the challenge!

Neville Mercer

18/08/16 – 10:02

I particularly remember these fine vehicles working the X43 Manchester- Skipton, and can not recall any instances of sickness. However in December 1962 I travelled to Grasmere on the X40 from Manchester. This was usually a “Gay Hostess” working, but this particular day a “White Lady” turned up. All went well until Lake Windermere was reached. At one point there was a highish stone wall and all that was visible on the nearside was water. The roll of the coach plus the water produced a sea-sickness effect with devastating results. The top deck was full of teenage boys who had been filling there faces with all manner of food since leaving Manchester. The rest as they say is history…

Andrew Gosling

18/08/16 – 13:58

I remember at Lancaster a driver coming upstairs and asking us to move downstairs due to the high percentage of queasiness from there to Keswick!/em>

Roger Burdett

19/08/16 – 06:34

Thanks for your thoughts, folks! I have some very vague memories of an article in the old MECCANO MAGAZINE, early 1960’s about a group of Leyland apprentices who had built and Atlantean chassis out of rejects. They called it the Royal Mouse. If memory serves correctly, first was thrown out, everything else went down and a new top was fitted.
I’m only glad that, with the Gay Hostess and White Lady air suspension, the Royal Mouse never went into production!
I only travelled upstairs on a Gay Hostess once, M6 between Birmingham and Lancaster in my student days. Usually, I was either downstairs or on a single decker.

Pete Davies

19/08/16 – 06:35

Did the “Gay Hostess” vehicles have a better ride than these vehicles – less queasiness?

Chris Hebbron

19/08/16 – 08:12

The “Gay Hostess” seemed to have a better ride, but a lot seems to depend on road surface and camber. The Keswick run was the only time I experienced problems on a “White Lady”. My return journey from Grasmere (see earlier comment) was on a “Gay Hostess” and was a good deal smoother than the “White Lady”. The weight distribution of two models could well have been very different. Expert needed! Before political correctness was invented, I was told by a male East Yorkshire driver that they hated having a clippie on a Bridgemaster, as any “clearing up” had to be done by the driver!

Andrew Gosling

19/08/16 – 14:08

Thx Andrew.I suppose that the ride on a double-decker much depends on the balance of folk upstairs compared with downstairs, to some extent, not exactly top heavy but you know what I mean. Southdown 700 was, apparently, truly awful, these later vehicles better. One wonders what modern ones are like. Megabus and others run them with everyone upstairs, apart from a handful, usually disabled folk, downstairs, plus vending machines and toilets. Maybe air suspension gives better control.

Chris Hebbron

20/08/16 – 05:54

Thx Andrew.I suppose that the ride on a double-decker much depends on the balance of folk upstairs compared with downstairs, to some extent, not exactly top heavy but you know what I mean. Southdown 700 was, apparently, truly awful, these later vehicles better. One wonders what modern ones are like. Megabus and others run them with everyone upstairs, apart from a handful, usually disabled folk, downstairs, plus vending machines and toilets. Maybe air suspension gives better control.

Chris Hebbron

20/08/16 – 05:54

Some of these modern vehicles frighten me with their (notice correct grammar today!) vast size and what could happen in an accident. The only modernish large coaches that I have travelled on were the Central Liners . One was an MCW Metroliner, the other was possibly a Neoplan but I am not sure.They produced quite a comfortable ride. They were full of charming teenage children, which must be high risk w.r.t. travel sickness. In fact no problems were experienced! There has been much criticism of Lowbridge Atlanteans, but I have been on Ribble vehicles to Rossendale (X13/23) and found travel in the raised section very pleasant. The same can be said of PMT vehicles on the Stoke- Stafford run. These were in the 60s when roads were maintained to a much higher level. The amount of rattles on modern vehicles seems very great, this may be road surface, poor design or both.

Andrew Gosling

20/08/16 – 05:55

I’ve travelled some distances on Neoplan Skyliners (as once used on Motorway Expresses) and they just seem to have sophisticated suspensions. Behind the two rear axles was a huge luggage compartment and the engine, so the small lower saloon didn’t provide much ballast. On French D roads with steep cambers they did lurch a bit, but not often and that more seemed the rear wheels/ suspension soaking this up rather than the whole vehicle. What were the Standerwick Bristols like?

Joe

20/08/16 – 10:22

Joe, re Standerwick Bristols, I can only comment on what I have read which contains much unfavourable material. The engine position must have presented stability problems. A local (now defunct) bus company bought one second hand. I never saw it other than in their yard!

Andrew Gosling

20/08/16 – 11:06

To answer Joe’s question, I only ever saw them parked at Fleetwood (in NBC white = YUK!), never moving, and I never rode on them. I seem to recall that one fell over in some way, but the mitigating circumstance was that it was hit by a marauding lorry. They were VRL, I think, not the usual VRT, and Reading had some of that layout. Perhaps one or more of our members from that area can enlighten us, remembering of course that the Reading ones were buses not double deck coaches

Pete Davies

20/08/16 – 17:45

Correction! I now realise that the Reading ones are listed as VRT/LL rather than VRL. Sorry!

Pete Davies

23/08/16 – 06:03

The Standerwick VRL M1 accident near Luton on a wet road surface on 26 July 1974 arose as a result of an immediately previous collision involving a jacknifed lorry that left a lamp standard leaning across the carriageway. The driver was placed in an impossible situation. In attempting to avoid the obstructions, the VRL turned over, killing three and injuring 30 others. The hysterical tabloid coverage distorted the facts of the sad event, and attention hungry politicians then jumped on the bandwagon by threatening to ban double deck coaches from the outside lane of motorways.

Roger Cox

23/08/16 – 10:15

Thanks, Roger.

Pete Davies

30/08/16 – 15:08

Out of interest, has anyone got any colour pictures of Ribble 2173, in Ribble timesaver colours.

Stephen Hamer

31/08/16 – 10:13

Stephen, 2173, no. 2174 in the ‘Venetian blind’ stripes, yes, if it’s of any use to you. (Inside Devonshire Road garage)

Pete Davies

18/10/16 – 07:48

Thanks Pete, it would be a great help with re painting 2173. At the moment it is in the old Lancashire United blue and cream. Many thanks.

Stephen Hamer

20/10/16 – 15:47

Many thanks Pete, the photo of 2174 will help a great deal. There are not a lot of photos of 2173. Thanks again.

Stephen Hamer

Wallasey Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – FHF 451 – 1

FHF 451

Wallasey Corporation Transport
1958
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Metro-Cammell H44/33F

Cheshire’s seaside resort is New Brighton, part of Wallasey. Wallasey is credited in some sources as having the first Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 in public service, and here is: FHF 451. It dates from 1958 and has a Metropolitan Cammell H77F body. A legend surrounds the peculiar colour. Many of us would regard it as a yellow, and I understand that, to distinguish them from those of the neighbouring Birkenhead blue buses, Wallasey’s were known as the yellow buses. It is – officially – sea green. According to legend, one of the first trams was about to be painted, and the unfortunate operative asked the foreman what colour of paint he should use. The foreman had no idea, but he knew that the manager, a Mr Green, would know what he wanted, and told the painter to “See Green”, which he promptly applied.

FHF 451_2

The second view shows the fleet name and Crest. Both photographs were taken in North Albert Street, Fleetwood, on the Tram Sunday of 19 July 1998.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

09/10/16 – 09:39

At Kentish Bus I worked with an accountant who came from the Wirral. His view was that the bus livery reflected the quality of the water at New Brighton (I won’t repeat his exact words). So yes, Sea Green indeed.

Roger Cox

09/10/16 – 15:14

Thank you, Roger. I think the imagination can cope!

Pete Davies

09/10/16 – 15:14

To add a little more amusement to the proceedings, Wallasey Corporation Motor’s General Manager’s full name was Colonel Richard Roughley Greene and his two last names aptly describe the conflict about what colour Sea Green actually is!

Chris Hebbron

10/10/16 – 07:18

My version of the story was that it was the first buses, and the Leyland representative asked the question, but whatever! It is slightly reminiscent of the story of the umber colour of London Brighton and South Coast Railway locos, officially (?) described as “Stroudley’s improved engine green”.

Stephen Ford

11/10/16 – 06:36

A Journalist enquired of an employee: ‘How would you would you describe the colour?’ The poor fellow had no idea, so he suggested that the question be directed towards the general manager. ‘See Greene’, he replied, so sea green it became!

Philip Lamb

11/10/16 – 11:20

Such is the stuff of legend!!! When Southampton Citybus, as it had become by then, fitted tanks on the roof to G prefix Dennis Darts, and First Group provided some N prefix ones, locals asked drivers why these tanks were appearing. One driver said they were air tanks, ready for use on the submarine service to Cowes, in competition with Red Funnel. The story soon spread!

A colleague had worked for St Albans Council. He and some others were doing a survey of the high street, in preparation for paving renewal. Some one asked what and why. The reply was that it was ready for the extension of the runway at Luton Airport. You can imagine the letters to the local rag that followed . . .

Pete Davies

13/10/16 – 07:08

And thanks to her owners the 201 Group she is a regular in passenger service at Rallys, possibly the oldest Atlantean still in passenger use next to the PMT preserved example?

C Aston

14/10/16 – 13:47

Wallasey 1 is without any doubt the earliest Atlantean still carrying passengers. Glasgow LA1 is the only other surviving of the four shown at the Earl’s Court show in 1958 and Glasgow Museums do not allow passengers.

Stephen Allcroft

17/10/19 – 06:02

Wallasey buses were locally know as the banana buses. because they were yellow and left the ferry terminal in bunches when the inspector blew his whistle.

Mr Anon