Category: Photos

Hargreaves of Bolton – Foden PVSC6 – EWH 195


Copyright Ian Wild

Hargreaves of Bolton
Foden PVSC6
19??
Whitson RC35C

This great shot was taken at the Botanical Gardens Rhyl in August 1963 and at the time the above vehicle was owned by the Foden Sports and Social Club but it was delivered new to Hargreaves of Bolton. Bodywise is it called an Observation Coach or an Half-deck Coach? I can understand why it ended up with a sports a social club I should imagine that the large luggage locker came in handy for carrying all that equipment. Another question regarding this type of body I have is, were they limited to double decker regulations of length and weight for example or were the single decker lengths and weights allowed?
The PVSC6 had the Gardner 6LW 8·4 litre six cylinder diesel engine there was the option of the Gardner 5LW 7·0 litre five cylinder diesel engine in which case it was designated the PVSC5. In 1949 the Foden FE6 4·0 litre two stroke diesel engine was available which was designated the PVFE6 but only 52 PVFE6s were built as the series was superseded by the rear engined PVR in 1950.

Photograph contributed by Ian Wild

I can’t answer any of the technical questions about this coach, but I always remember these because Dinky Toys made one in the late 1950s and I had one; but to this day I’ve never seen an example of the real thing. There’s an example of the Dinky version here.

KC

Yes, KC – I’d forgotten about these. I used to have one. Weren’t they Maudsleys? It would be interesting to know why Dinky should choose such an unusual design of body and comparatively rare chassis for their model, especially when they were soon to become obsolete in style.

Paul Haywood

Didn’t Dinky do one in BOAC livery? I seem to remember the full-sized versions plying between Heathrow and the BOAC city terminal somewhere near Gloucester Road station – in the days before Heathrow Express, or even the extension of the Piccadilly Line beyond Hounslow West.

Stephen Ford

A couple of model makers made versions of airline-related coaches.
Dinky did this.
Matchbox did this.

KC

Its an observation coach, and Whitson built them on Maudslay, Leyland, AEC, and Foden chassis between 1949 and 1952. A half-deck coach is a different beast altogether using the patented “Crellin-Duplex” design where upper and lower deck seating was arranged to cram as many people in as possible using interlocking “railway compartment” style seating. The end result looked more like a two-level horsebox than a PSV! In prewar years Duple built a few observation coaches (I seem to remember one for an operator in South Wales) but in the post-war period Whitson had a virtual monopoly. The only other post-war example which springs to mind is the Mulliner bodied Morris-Commercial built for the Morris Works Band. This is preserved at the Oxford Bus Museum, but sadly none of the magnificent Whitson vehicles has survived.
The most famous Whitson observation coaches were the Fodens used by Salopia, but Dinky Toys chose to use a Maudslay supplied (in real life) to Embankment of Plymouth as the prototype for their scale model.
The airport coaches you mention were (in a sense) observation coaches, and share the same PSV Circle body prefix (RC) but all of those used by BEA in London (bodywork by Park Royal) and by MCTD in Manchester (bodied by Burlingham and Bond) had a continuous roofline rather than the “stepped” arrangement of a true observation coach, Liverpool Corporation converted a few (previously conventional) single-deckers to this “stepped roof” format in the late 1950s for their own airport service. The vehicles which resulted were not an aesthetic triumph!

Neville Mercer

07/02/11 – 06:04

As has already been pointed out, there was a world of difference between the Observation Coach style and that of the Half-Decker. Both were built to the (then) size limits for single deckers, rather than being restricted to the double decker dimensions. This applied regardless of whether they were mounted on front-engined chassis or rear-engined/underfloor-engined chassis. EWH 195 was one of a pair supplied to Hargreaves of Bolton, the other one being EBN 898. Both were supplied as PVSC6 chassis (Gardner 6LW), but after Fodens acquired EWH 195 they fitted a Foden two-stroke engine, effectively converting it to PVFE6 specification. Incidentally, you can tell the difference between front engined Gardner powered and Foden powered PSVs by the position of the starting handle hole. In the case of the Gardner engine the hole is dead centre, whereas it is slightly offset to the offside when a Foden engine was fitted.

Peter Tulloch

14/04/11 – 05:00

I should imagine this was carrying the Foden band who performed all over the country, they had several Fodens over the years, some had a bandmaster mascot on the rad cap, a uniformed conductor (the musical type) waving a baton.

Bryan Yates

05/10/11 – 17:28

I too had the Dinky model but I also remember the actual bus around North Wales when I was a small boy in the late 1950’s-early 1960’s. I lived in Broughton and we always holidayed further up the coast so saw this bus quite regularly. I also liked the cream-liveried Crosville buses which seemed more exotic than the all green or green and cream Chester buses.
Happy days!

Paul Eaton-Jones

25/10/11 – 07:19

I agree with Bryan Yates’ assumption that this coach was carrying the Fodens Brass Band. My father was a Machine Shop Foreman until his death in 1964, and I can remember seeing the bus now and then around the Elworth works – if memory serves me well it was grey and blue, and sounded as though it had the 2-stroke engine. No doubt the extra storage was useful for the band instruments. On another note, I saw a red half-cab Foden coach at Astle Park steam rally in August – still in the Coppenhalls (Sandbach) coach firm’s livery. Lovely memories!

Malcolm Riley

27/07/12 – 14:50

Reference to Malcolm’s comments about the blue and grey coach for the Foden Works Band….
I was sent a photo a couple of days ago from a friend in the UK who saw what is probably this gorgeous looking old lady just last week at a rally in Newbury….If I knew how to load photos on to this site I’d do it, but maybe a quick Google would stir the memory cells into action, and might also provide more information about its current owners’ show schedule and dates….

Stuart C

27/07/12 – 15:51

Ah….An hour later and I would be kicking myself unmercifully if the old limbs could bend that far….
The old lady I was going on about is not only already well known on here…. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/  
But ever a star, she even has her own page on Wikipedia…. //de.wikipedia.org/  
I’m sure that it’s just an age thing on my part, but what an absolutely wonderful example of what a British coach was meant to look like….

Stuart C

28/07/12 – 08:40

She’s a very attractive vehicle and the colour scheme certainly enhances her looks, too, Stuart.

Chris Hebbron

14/09/12 – 06:57

Beautiful Vehicle, Astons Coaches Marton operated HUJ 997 Foden PVFR Observation Coach Whitson. They also operated a Foden Crellin Duplex mentioned above KWT 976 with a Lincs Trailer Body as well as two other Crellin Duplex with Mann Egerton. Various other Fodens were operated including well known NBH 950 and JWY 999

David Aston

13/05/13 – 15:25

How many Whitson Observation Coaches were made.

David Aston

02/02/15 – 07:14

I’ve just been doing some research on Whitson’s observation coaches and the answer to “how many were built” seems to be 32 or 33. The biggest customer was the US Air Force which took either nine or ten (depending on which source you believe!) on 30 ft long Crossley SD42/9 chassis. These received the USAF serial numbers N967-976 (or N969-977 in one version, hence the discrepancy in total build numbers). They carried pseudo-Foden radiator grilles at the request of the customer and were delivered in 1951 for use on personnel transfers and by assorted USAF military bands. They appear to have been withdrawn in 1959 and at least one of them (N975) was subsequently sold to a civil operator (Peters of Llanarmon) as TCA 309. It was scrapped in 1962. Next came Salopia Saloon Coaches of Whitchurch and Embankment of Plymouth with five each. Salopia’s were all on Foden chassis, one of the shorter version on PVSC6 chassis (GAW 86), a 30ft long PVFE6 (GUJ 243) and three of the 30 ft version on rear-engined PVRF6s (HUJ 996/7 and JAW 334). Embankment took two on Maudslay Marathon IIIs (EJY 123/4), two on AEC Regal IIIs (FDR 52/3) and one on a Foden PVSC6 (GCO 946).
Four operators had two each. Hargreaves of Bolton took EBN 898 and EWH 195 on Foden PVSC6 chassis, HS Knight of Northampton received BNH 301 (Maudslay Marathon III) and BNH 302 (AEC Regal III), AE Marsh T/A Black and White of Harvington (Worcs) had Marathon IIIs HNP 875 and HUY 204), and ET Straw of Leicester bought Regal III GBC 893 and Regal IV HBC 603.
WEMS of Weston-super-Mare received Marathon III DFR 395. This vehicle was apparently the prototype – it had a slightly higher roof-line on the raised section – and had been an exhibit at the Earls Court Show in Batty Holt livery which might account for its Blackpool registration as they had a subsidiary there. However, it never entered service with the Lancashire firm and stayed with WEMS until 1960.
Other one-off customers were Cowell Bros of Sunderland (Regal III AGR 975), Doug Jones Coaches of Newchurch (Hants) who took Royal Tiger JOT 616 – the only Leyland example, Netherfield of Nottingham (Regal IV NAL 393), and Stanton Bros of Horseley Heath (Staffs) with Marathon III RRF 328.
Second-hand operators of observation coaches (apart from the previously mentioned Peters of Llanarmon) included Cooper of Gilesgate (Durham) who took two former Salopia PVRF6s, Elms Coaches of Kenton (London) who bought Embankment’s Foden GCO 946, and Ubique (also in the London area) who bought RRF 328.
Can anyone tell me of any I’ve missed? Past experience would suggest that there might be others lurking where I’ve failed to notice them!
The body came in two basic versions. The shorter variety can be recognised by having two full window bays on the sides of the raised section, while the 30 ft version has three. Both types could be adapted to suit any engine position (front/underfloor/rear).
In closing, can anybody tell me the liveries used by HS Knight of Northampton (taken over by York’s in 1960) or Stanton of Horseley Heath (who disappeared in 1956)? I have black and white shots of these operators’ vehicles and would like to get an idea of what they looked like in technicolour!

Neville Mercer

03/05/16 – 07:03

Whitson Observation Coaches
Having more or less concluded the History of Astons Coaches now delving deeply into the history of some of the vehicles they ran Have started on
Leyland Panda
Rutland Clipper
Crellin Duplex
Today I start on Whitson Observation Coaches so any points of reference or articles on these much appreciated Astons had HUJ 997 Foden

David Aston

04/05/16 – 14:56

GAW 86 One of the Salopia Fodens was converted to a Lorry are there any photos around?
HUY 204 It is well documented that the Foden won Concourse prizes, but why did HUY 204 Maudslay Marathon have a similar Concourse Badge on it this is at the Wythan Bus Museum

David Aston

19/05/16 – 06:15

I understand that there was possibly another one but records are unclear OFR 922 any one know anything about this one.
USAF Crossley I am led to believe N974 was registered as 8065 KD went to a Liverpool School. N976 was registered as 464 GBM went to Creed,Sandy

David Aston

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

14/05/20 – 06:48

Black and White of Tipton (Stanton Bros?) also had at lest one.

Bill Parker

19/05/20 – 06:20

BLOTW reveals that Stanton had in fact two. RRF 328, a Maudslay Marathon III, has already been mentioned by Neville Mercer above, but there was also ORF 922, a Tilling Stevens K6LA7, no less. This is probably the ‘OFR 922’ that David Aston was enquiring about.
And I think Bill’s question probably answers Neville’s earlier question about Stantons’ livery!

Peter Williamson

20/05/20 – 07:16

Although it is correct that BLOTW lists ORF 922 as having an observation body, photographic evidence puts this in doubt. This photograph includes what is suggested as being that Tilling Stevens, which has a standard half cab body. Either the coach in the photograph is not ORF 922, or it was subsequently rebodied, which seems unlikely – https://flic.kr/p/or9CVv 

David Williamson

Llandudno UDC – Foden PVSC6 – AJC 91

Llandudno UDC - Foden PVSC6 - AJC 91

Llandudno Urban District Council
1951
Foden PVSC6
Metalcraft C35F

Llandudno operated two of these single deckers on the route from the Town Centre to St Tudnos Church on the Great Orme. This was a continual climb with the steepest section of 1 in 4. The buses were fitted with a ratchet brake to prevent the bus running back down the hill if the engine stalled or the brakes failed. This was operated by a lever in the cab and was activated by the driver at the foot of the steepest section of the climb. My notes made at the time (September 1967) make reference to the clock fitted above the windscreens “which is always accurate”. Also, “the conductor is responsible for the smart interior condition of the vehicle”. The driver “had collected the bus from Fodens Works at Sandbach in May 1951 and had driven it each summer season since”. These two buses were replaced by very rare Dennis Pax single deckers in 1968 allegedly because of the non availability of the 9.00 x 22 tyres fitted to the Fodens.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

18/09/15 – 06:00

Was the ratchet brake of the same type as fitted to the Foden used on the Bargoed Hill route by West Mon (HWO 590)? And did any other operators use it?

Geoff Kerr

18/09/15 – 06:00

Well into the period when 20″ wheels were standard for lorries, Foden continued fitting 22″ wheels to some of their heavies, but if AJC 91 had been built on a goods chassis I don’t think the downswept body would have been possible, so could the larger wheels have been fitted for ground clearance?

Ian T

05/10/15 – 06:14

Is this confusion does not the ratchet brake refer to the actual handbrake.On goods chassis ratchet hand brakes worked upon the rear wheels only and when correctly adjusted one and a half pulls brought the brakes on,it was the emergency brake on air brake systems without spring brake chambers.Run back brakes or sprag brakes in their early form actually operated by dropping a bar onto the road!
When I worked for a haulage company who operated farm milk collection tanker one of the drivers picked up from about fifteen farms about 1800 gallons entirely on the ratchet handbrake around the hilly Sussex Weald

Patrick Armstrong

Foden Works – Foden PVRF6 – OLG 855

Foden Works - Foden PVRF6 - OLG 855
Foden Works - Foden PVRF6 - OLG 855 - Full Front

Foden Works
1951
Foden PVRF6
Plaxton C??C

These excellent shots were contributed by Andrew Charles who took them in 2005 the vehicle was restored by its present owner Nick Helliker. This particular vehicle was built for the Foden Works Brass Band who used it to travel to all their concerts until 1979 when it was replaced by another Foden vehicle. It was then laid up at the Foden factory until it was bought by an enthusiast who stored it under cover until the present owner bought it and did a full restoration to the standard you see above.
Fodens rear engine layout was way ahead of its time in 1951 as most other manufactories had just nicely switched over to underfloor engines and would stay that way for quite awhile to come. In fact Andrews comment that accompanied the shots read:-

“With it’s rear mounted two stroke engine this configuration when viewed now from sixty years on has become the norm – indeed Volvo have just delivered the last underfloor engined coach – a B12B – to Pulhams of Bourton on the Water, all future production will be rear engined.” (09/10)

The engine fitted to the above was Fodens own 4·0 litre two stroke diesel engine although there was the option to have a 8·4 litre Gardner 6LW in which case the model code would be PVRG6. I think there would have been a noticeable difference in performance as the Gardner is twice the size of the Foden engine, unless being a two stroke made a difference in which case why did it never catch on with other engine manufactories. The body for the above was built in Scarborough by Plaxton and was based around their Venturer model. I am rather curious to know what the circular grill in the roof above  “Foden Coach” is, a large air horn perhaps.
Oh does anyone know what the seating capacity is?

Photograph contributed by Andrew Charles

Lovely pictures of a fine vehicle. Direct comparison of the engine capacities (4.1-litre Foden versus 8.4-litre Gardner) is, as Andrew suggests, complicated by the fact that in the two-stroke engine each cylinder delivers power at every revolution—not every other revolution as in the four-stroke—and so should develop double the torque. You would therefore reasonably expect that with air delivered to the cylinders at atmospheric pressure a 4.1-litre 2-stroke would develop torque equivalent to that of an 8.2-litre 4-stroke, but in practice inlet air pressure has to be well above atmospheric in order to scavenge the exhaust AND fill the cylinder with a clean charge of new air all in one go, so a blower has to be provided. Whether this blower is seen as a mere scavenger or as a supercharger depends on the amount of excess air it provides.
On p98 of the 1953 edition of Commercial Motor’s “The British Commercial Vehicle Industry” the Gardner 6LW as fitted to Foden passenger vehicles is shown as developing 358 lb/ft torque at 1,300 rpm and the Foden 2-stroke engine as giving 350 lb/ft at 1,500rpm.
Gardner maximum power is 112 bhp at 1,700rpm against the Foden’s 126 bhp at 2,000 rpm. Not much difference in on-paper torque, then, but in real life you had to keep the Foden engine spinning, as low-speed torque fell off alarmingly. Hence the need for the 12-speed gearboxes used for example in those wonderful howling Hoveringham gravel lorries. I’ve never driven a Foden of any kind, but I had a day in a 3-cylinder 2-stroke Commer coach belonging to Spiers of Henley-on-Thames which really NEEDED its 2-speed axle to allow you to keep the engine whirring within it optimum range. My guess is that the Foden 2-stroke didn’t catch on with PSV operators because of a) exhaust noise, b) reasonable but not wonderful fuel consumption, c) maintenance costs and d) inability to lug at low revs.
Incidentally, Foden later added a turbocharger and planned a 7-cylinder version. Does anyone know what became of it?

Ian Thompson

Memories, memories: this site is therapy. Do I remember that the Foden engine sounded like one of those old dumpers? Presumably the idea was to keep the weight down at the back.
I’d say that the grille at the front was a vent- there don’t seem to be many others: it probably pushed the tubas ciggie smoke along a bit….
Lovely looking coach for its time, though.

Joe

My late father had the opportunity to drive a wide selection of vehicles during his war service with the army and always maintained that the very best lorries were the Fodens. They certainly seemed to uphold this reputation right up to the end – including the small foray into buses – producing vehicles of a very high quality. Surprising then that they did not make bigger inroads into buses than they did – but their niche market of specialist trucks was probably more profitable and time consuming.
The Plaxton Centenary book simply describes the grille as an air intake. For engine, passenger or tuba player it does not say.

David Oldfield

I think the reason Foden didn’t make greater inroads into the bus market was the same as for the ill-fated Daimler CD650 – Fodens were rather complicated and probably rather expensive. Most transport managers of those days were pragmatic and conservative, preferring something familiar that was known to be good enough rather than something unknown that might just possibly be better.
As for the two-stroke engine, Ian has explained it perfectly. The reason that torque fell off alarmingly at low revs was that the blower couldn’t keep up, and so alternate firing strokes would become weakened as the engine tended towards a four-stroke cycle. I owned the ex Samuel Ledgard two-stroke Foden coach ONW 2 (front-engined) for a short while. My impression was that it was smooth, powerful and effective as a coach, but would have been hopeless for bus work. It also tended to stall when manoeuvring, as the torque would suddenly be halved by the four-stroke effect if the revs got too low. More recently I have travelled in the back of Roger Burdett’s rear-engined two-stroke, and noticed a distinct chugging sensation as it pulled out of roundabouts for the same reason, since with a wide-ratio gearbox it isn’t easy to keep the revs up.

Peter Williamson

Peter I never drove ONW 2 as I was at Otley and Ilkley Depots, but I have the most vivid memories of the stretch of the A64 dual carriageway at Whitwell. The road has a high summit and a deep trough at both ends, and many’s the time ONW 2 could be seen in the offside lane overtaking virtually everything in sight. Once in full flight that fine machine could really swallow up the miles but, as I’m of limited technical knowledge, I’ve found your explanations of the two stroke limitations most fascinating.

Chris Youhill

The above Foden was purchased by Ken Batsford from Fodens and was kept safe until purchased by present owner. I have driven many Foden trucks and with regards the Gardner vs the stroker scenario, leaving Millwall with 21 ton of timber on board me in a s36/Gardner my mate in a s36mk7 stroker on Archway Rd climbing north towards Mill Hill/M1 he would be 2 gears lower than me but pulling away from me. Once on the M1 he would leave me for dead his top speed about 65/70 mine about 50/55. When I drove a 2 stroke you had to wind it up in every gear and note the speed you shifted gears at because that’s the speed you changed down at to keep the thing pulling hard, lose the revs and you were knackered. Driving the 12 speed you started off in 2 low range up to 4 low, up to 2 direct and then 2 overdrive 3 direct and so on. Fodens were cold and noisy or hot and noisy depending on the weather but good trucks, 2 strokes suffered with cooling problems and often scrapped cylinder heads (separate head per cylinder)

Chainmaker

Ah the 2 stroke Foden. My short stint as a driver for Transglobe (B’ham) brings back the memory of one of my nosier ‘steeds’ – and having to take it to the Foden works (Sandbach) for diesel pump adjustments. I think it had a Duple body.

Nigel Edwards

Engine aside, perhaps a major reason the Foden PVR was unsuccessful was that it was fitted with Lockheed continuous flow hydraulic servo braking. Other manufacturers also tried this (Daimler, Dennis) and would be buyers stayed away in droves. It was not that brakes were particularly poor (though in the case of the earlier Fodens, if the engine stalls than braking is reduced to practically nil) but sheer complication of the system and potential maintenance problems were enough to keep people away. The only bus that really saw success with a system like this was the Routemaster which took the might of London Transport’s engineering development to take the bugs out of the design.
I am, incidentally, the current owner of another Foden PVR coach, VRF 372, currently in restoration.

Nick Webster

Chris Youhill’s comments about ONW 2 overtaking nearly everything in sight reminded me of a report from a Commercial Motor correspondent, Alfred Woolf, who hitched a ride on Salopia’s HUJ 996, one of their rear engined Observation coaches, on its way to the Nice Coach Rally. Covering 800 miles in three days on roads of dubious quality, the coach ‘left most other public service vehicles behind, even those with more powerful motors’ and ‘provided that the engine speed is kept up, few vehicles can climb as well as the Foden’. On some stretches of prime Belgian pave, flat in nature, speeds of 60 m.p.h. were seen – and maintained for many a mile. The coach took the Grand Prix du Confort et de l’Elegance award – Whitson’s fifth such award! Another rear-engined Foden, OLG 968, was taken by Fodens on an Alpine Tour to test its suitability for Continental touring. Admittedly driven hard, to assess its capabilities, the coach averaged 30.2 m.p.h. and 10.8 m.p.g. over a total distance of 2,850 miles. This included scaling no fewer than five high Alpine passes, most of which were loose surface roads! I have heard an apocryphal tale that the coach was clocked by one German driver in excess of 80 m.p.h. – downhill and out of gear! Average speeds on the German autobahns were over 50 m.p.h. and even the long run from Strasbourg to Paris (302 miles) on standard main roads was completed at an average speed of 36.4 m.p.h. Yes, the two-stroke engined coaches were fliers, but you had to keep the revs up to get the best out of them.

Peter Tulloch

13/05/11 – 06:36

I think that must be a pic of the great Fodens bus that my father talked a lot about. He has fond memories of his days at Fodens Works at Sandbach. He was there for six years in the sixties then came home to run the family business of eight wheel Fodens. I have heard many a funny story involving that machine. Does Billy Harrison ring a bell to anyone?

Lee Harrison

21/01/16 – 15:33

I think that as well as a higher purchase price and the complication of the braking system, another problem with Foden PSVs particularly in the coach application is that of resale value, here the two stroke was particularly likely to depreciate heavily, at least you could take a 6LW out and use it in about 60% of other heavyweight buses and coaches of the same era.

Stephen Allcroft

30/08/19 – 10:01

I have really enjoyed being educated again at the age of 66, on the principles of two stoke engines. In 1961 when at school I can vividly remember the heavy bulk sugar lorries of Tate and Lyle in dark blue livery heaving and struggling to re-start from traffic lights on the old A11 London to Cambridge road. The exhaust note was unbelievable and with high revs and just poured out hot shimmering heat onto my bare legs, as I only wore shorts then for school. It always surprised me that the hot exhaust gases were even directed by design towards pedestrians on the nearside pavements! – such memories

Paul Tanner

01/09/19 – 06:09

Always interesting to comment on Fodens. I have travelled around 1500 miles in mine this year so it was great to look back over the comments and think how it had performed. Mine will do 60mph (twice the 1951 speed limit for coaches) but is really comfortable bowling along at around 50mph. Fuel consumption has been between 10 and 11 mpg as compared to 14mpg for my Gardners. The brakes whilst competent do not have accumulators so engine stopping means no brakes at all-can be scary. It is a pig to drive with the gearbox being transverse behind the rear axle meaning timing is really critical to clean changes. Anyone who has ridden with me this year will have seen one trip all clean next trip hit and miss. PW back in the dialogue talks about chugging coming out of roundabouts and he is totally correct. First being a crawler is not much use and wide gaps mean I have been caught out in the wrong gear more than once. Ironically it is better to be slower in roundabouts and use second rather than third. My style tends to be I clatter through roundabouts so it does require me to alter driving style. Switching from Gardner to Foden 2 stroke say a week apart means a totally different driving style. I understand the 12 speed box is essentially the same as mine just with a 3 way splitter.Having said that I love it but need a couple of extra hours sleep afterwards. It is running at Delaine Running Day Sept 28 and then resting until 2021.

Roger Burdett

13/10/21 – 03:30

OLG 855_3

While having an hour of browsing reminiscence, I came across this photo of the Foden Works Band’s coach. I took it on a damp day at Blackpool on August 22, 1976. The livery has been reversed in the top photo of 2005 and the fog lights changed. The GB sticker and row of city stickers along the bottom of the windscreen look like trophies of a continental concert tour.

Geoff Pullin

13/06/22 – 06:25

The Mark 7 Six cylinder engine was the last model built. It had higher pressure fuel injectors compared to the earlier Mark 6 with blue caps instead of black in order to distinguish them. I worked at Foden’s in Elworth in the late ‘Sixties and spent some time building the engines. At that time, Gardner LW’s and LX’s were being rebuilt there. The crankshaft bearings on the LW’s had to be scraped in and, as an apprentice, you only touched the face of the bearings once with your fingers. A blow at the side of the head from the fitter put paid to further attempts. Apprentices learnt quickly in those days. In the experimental department, one test run they used was up Shap Fell, the apprentice logging the figures from the multitude of analogue gauges which, as I recall, were built into a board. Regarding Billy Harrison (Lee Harrison) I don’t recall Billy but I do remember a Paul Harrison. He would have been in his late teens in 1969.

Daniel Preston

14/06/22 – 06:12

OLG 855_4

Thought you might like to see a recent photo including this coach when it appeared at the Didcot Transport Rally.

John Lomas

Beehive Services – Foden PVRF6 – KWU 24

Beehive Services - Foden PVRF6 - KWU 24
Beehive Services - Foden PVRF6 - KWU 24 - Rear View

Beehive Services
1952
Foden PVRF6 
Whitson C39C

The top photograph first appeared on the “Do You Know” page of this website and the following information was forthcoming.
The shot was taken in a scrap yard when this particular vehicle was presumably at the end of its days. It states that it was owned by Bodill Builders Contractors who were probably the last owners and used it as a staff vehicle. Originally it was owned by Beehive Services who were based at Adwick-le-Street (near Doncaster) and founded by Ernest Arthur Hart after he retired from being a centre-half footballer for Leeds-United and England in the 1930s. Beehive Services was eventually taken over or amalgamated with Wilfreda from Bawtry to form Wilfreda Beehive of Adwick-le-Street. Wilfreda Beehive still operate as a bus and coach operator in the South Yorkshire area and one thing I spotted on their website is that they have Routemaster for private hire.
If anyone is interested in engine shots let me know it may be possible with a bit of tweaking to bring out more detail which I would then post here.

Fascinating how there is a blur between unconnected coachbuilders. I know Whitson and Duple were north London neighbours, but that’s a Duple rear end!
Three or four years before Duple’s takeover, Burlingham put a Duple rear end on the Seagull (from 1957/8) and of course there was the famous and ubiquitous Alexander R type clone by East Lancs on various rear engined decker chassis.
These were companies independent of each other and it doesn’t take account of the fifties period when the same style could bear Crossley, Park Royal or Roe plates depending on which factory built them.
Come to think of it, though, Southdown had about 10 Beadle/PD2s built on Park Royal frames. They were virtually indistinguishable from the real thing – but no formal link between the companies. They were also Beadles last deckers, and possibly their last bodies, before concentrating on the car sales side of their business.

David Oldfield

I have little to go on apart from hunch & haze, but were Harts really Beehive’s competitor Kildare Coaches (note Irish link) and Beehive the Co-op (A Beehive is a symbol the Co-op used)? Or is that wrong?

Joe

It isn’t just the rear view that reminds you of Duple, from that front three quarter view don’t you think the sides of the vehicle look a bit like a Duple Roadmaster?.
On the subject of lookalike bodies can I throw into the conversation the similarities between the Northern Counties bodies fitted to Yorkshire Traction Atlantean and Fleetlines, Roe bodies of that era (West Riding / Rotherham Corporation for example) and some Alexander (AL?) bodywork.

Andrew

Andrew. There is quite a history of putting Alexander screens and front ends on unrelated companies bodies. In addition to those you have mentioned, there were Atlanteans for Newcastle Corporation and Fleetlines for Bradford with MCW bodies.
You are absolutely right. Apart from the immediate windscreen area, it does look just like a Roadmaster. Wonder whether they were Duple frames (in the same manner as the Southdown PD2s mentioned above with Park Royal frames)?

David Oldfield

I can confirm that Whitson, the coachbuilder, had no direct connections with Duple and were actually West London based, firstly at Sipson, then at Yiewsley. Their managing director, Alf Whittit, was a fiercely independent and somewhat flamboyant salesman with a liking for the stylish designs for which Whitson became well known. Initially their draughtsman was Charles Pilbin, whose style tended to be functional rather than beautiful. This changed with the arrival, from Duple, of Cyril Austin. It may be that Cyril Austin was aware of, perhaps even responsible for, some of the Duple styling that people can see in the Whitson body. I can also confirm that E A Hart Limited (fleet name Beehive Services) were the company that bought the Fodens – there were actually four of them KWU 24 to 27. Control had passed to Doncaster Co-op in July 1947 and E A Hart left to set up another company – Kildare Coaches of Knottingley. KWU 24 itself survived the yard in which it was photographed. I have a photograph showing it in the service of Carlien’o Brothers Circus, but still carrying Bodill names on the front.

Peter Tulloch

Thanks Peter, my mystery above is solved- Kildare, Beehive and Hart’s, although Beehive was a “logo” of the Co-op. I thought that Kildare, though (also) had a garage in neighbouring Carcroft, and then in Adwick itself, where they seemed to compete with Beehive.

Joe

17/10/11 – 07:52

Unity Coaches at Clay Cliffe Road Baraugh Green Barnsley also ran rear engined Fodens. They were owned by the Barnsley British co-operative Ltd. and were in a rather strange brown and tan livery if I’m not mistaken. They were bought out by Cawthorne’s in the late ’50’s.

Jess

18/10/11 – 05:31

Unity/Beehive- good Co-op words. Sounds like a Co-op-Foden connection: like the Co-op branch buildings, they were meant to last!

Joe

18/10/11 – 05:31

I seem to recall that Kildare Coaches were taken over by Shearings so they could get a depot in the Doncaster area,

Philip Carlton

16/11/11 – 07:32

Kildare were bought out by Smiths-Happiways in 1983 mainly for the premises which became a Depot and Tour Interchange

Tim Presley

24/01/12 – 11:10

KWU 24 spent the rest of it’s PSV life with R.E. Everson Everson’s Coaches of Wix Nr. Manningtree in Essex, where it was joined by JOT 106 A Foden PRFG with Associated Coachbuilders C41C Body. KWU was C39C.
It was painted in red and cream and gave magnificent trouble free service for three years – a wonderful vehicle. I would love to see a closer view of the engine compartment.

Wally Francis

KWU 24 engine

10/11/12 – 09:15

For the attention of Wally Francis whose details I collected here. In 1955 a Commer TS3 with a Beadle body was supplied by my old boss, Ernie Harris of Fishponds Motor Co. Ltd. Bristol and I had been a young lad who had kept it, and the Garage showroom up together while I was employed. I would love to hear how long this vehicle lasted and exactly what had happened to it. The business had been done to Eversons Coaches of Wix, and I have 2 pictures – one somewhere close to town and the other parked in a stream of traffic outside of the Company premises. I do hope that this meets up with some conversation and I would love to hear further.

John Sealey

19/01/13 – 16:53

UHT 573 Beadle-Commer C35C. Fascinated to hear about the dear Commer. It joined the fleet in 1955 and replaced/traded in for 79 BPU a unique Page bodied Morris commercial [which itself has an interesting story behind it.]
UHT was a wonderful coach and made it in the fleet into the new livery of Red/white and grey – lasting ten years in the fleet – traded in to Moseleys and sold by them as a non- psv and turned into a mobile home spent time in the Clacton area funnily enough. Would love to see your photographs!!!

Wally Francis

12/07/13 – 07:58

Where were Page bodies built and what was the full name of the firm? Any photos of their products including 79 BPU mentioned.? Would like to know more as I have not heard of this bodybuilder before.

Mike Holloway

14/07/13 – 07:47

I think that the builder of the “Page” body referred to by Mike Holloway was Page or Page & Scott of Colchester who were principally car dealers. I ought to remember more as my late great uncle worked for them and I think at one point lived over the premises. Ultimately Page & Scott were acquired by George Ewer & Co who were not exactly unknown in the coach industry.

Nigel Turner

25/01/14 – 16:56

It was great to hear about the two Fodens and Commer TS3 belonging to Everson’s coaches. I went to school on all these. On one occasion the fan on KWU came off, and being a rear engined coach, it crashed through the rear doors and fell onto the road behind. Lots of other memories of those journeys and of working for Everson’s as a Saturday job.
If Wally Francis, who I worked with for three years, wishes to make contact I’d be delighted!

John Hull

28/10/14 – 06:55

I well remember this coach belonging to Beehive and taking our local Brass Band to Cardiff and later to Plymouth during the mid fifties. It was in dark green and cream.

Unrelated subject;
I was an apprentice to YTC in the sixties and remember looking round ‘Askins’ scrap yard during the dinner hour at a very tired Foden coach being scrapped, it had of course a Foden 2 stroke engine and an angle drive transmission. It begs the question why did Leylands struggle for so long perfecting the PDR 1 when the technology was already there? It took an overheard apprentice’s comment to get them to find an oil which would do both jobs of lubricating the diff and the angle drive and the gearbox after so many failed seals and g/b brake bands.
After a long and frustrating struggle to change the throttle pins on the Atlants. an apprentice was again heard to shout out in frustration, ‘Why don’t Leylands fit a hydraulic throttle to these camels? The next batch duly came fitted with Hydraulic throttles.

Jess

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

06/11/14 – 14:44

I now live in Australia, formerly of Fern Bank, Adwick le Street. My Uncle, Les Pickles, drove for Beehive coaches in the late 40’s early 50’s, I seem to recall that the depot was at the rear of the Adwick Post office. To my memory the early coaches had a Beehive and Bees on the side. Can any one forward any info and or photographs of these coaches please.

Vic Young

07/11/14 – 08:12

Thanks Vic- this is getting nearer to my hazy memories. I’m not certain that we have the story right yet!
The Co-op used a Beehive (with bees) as a logo in various places just like the one on the coaches. Do you know if they originally owned Beehive? Do you remember Kildare Coaches? I think they had a depot in Carcroft which became an NCB transport depot, and then moved to a site between Adwick & Carcroft. Were they Hart’s? The Beehive depot was in old Adwick village as you say… did Beehive and Kildare then amalgamate? to be continued…

Joe

Transglobe Tours – Foden PVRF6 – KUY 536


Copyright N Edwards.


Copyright N Edwards.

Transglobe Tours
1952
Foden PVRF6
Metalcraft C41C

The above two shots of a Foden PVR with Fodens own two-stroke engine were taken in my “Transglobe” driving days. I had taken it to the Foden works at Sandbach Cheshire for an annoying fuel pump fault – as I remember, apart from being noisy animals, these were very temperamental – constant adjustments to fuel delivery points (pump and injectors) being the order of the day. Although I never did a continental trip with this coach, I had one continental trip with a Bedford SBG Seagull that gave me quite a hard time ending with its brakes finally burning out on a very steep section in the Austrian Alps. The Church party and myself being returned to the French coast by a superior German coach, a “Satra”, as I recall. 
My thanks to Mike Beamish/www.mikesbuspages.co uk for allowing me to use a couple of his photos so that you can see offside views of a similar Metalcraft Foden PVR to the above.


Mike Beamish.


Mike Beamish.

According to Mike NTU 125 had been repainted in deeper Cream with a brighter Red relief than the first time he took a shot of it. The last of these two shots shows it at the Buses 60 Rally at Wroughton when it was being used to transport visitors to the various hangars and exhibition areas.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Nigel Edwards

Perhaps returned to the coast by a Kassborer-SETRA – now just Setra: and still very good. Rear engine…. quiet, comfortable: why isn’t it Foden?

Joe

Why isn’t it Foden? Setra have spent the last 50 years developing into the leading coach builder of Europe – if not the world. Foden chose to abandon PSVs and concentrate on HGVs – especially specialist applications.
Given a different history, who knows? Foden quality was never in doubt. Foden and AEC could both have become as well regarded today as Setra – they simply didn’t survive (for historical reasons that most of us already know).

David Oldfield

03/02/11 – 10:36

Nigel Edwards’ recollections of driving this coach to Fodens for adjustments are fascinating. Transglobe operated the coach between February 1958 and September 1959, if my records are correct. I can confirm that it definitely had a Metalcraft body. The Foden two-stoke engine was, I believe, fairly complex – and probably misunderstood. Some companies seemed to like them, others just did not get on with them. Cook’s Coaches from Lyneham in Wiltshire at one point had three two-stroke engined Fodens ….. in their fleet of three! The Whenuapai Bus Company and City Bus Services in New Zealand, however, had no end of troubles with their quintet, but once Hawkes’ Bay Bus Company bought up the bankrupt City B S along with the Fodens and had them properly overhauled, they found that the engine fan had been repositioned to accommodate the bodywork. Once the fans were correctly positioned, and also once they had a Foden-trained mechanic looking after them, they went on to give many years of reliable service. The last one wasn’t taken out of service until June 1980, later than some Leyland Royal Tigers in the same fleet. All five went on to serve as movans (mobile homes) and two still exist in such a capacity even now, though one is effectively immobile.

Peter Tulloch

16/01/13 – 13:40


Copyright Ian Lynas

I (and probably 50 or so other enthusiasts) took this shot of NTU 125, a rear-engined Foden with Metalcraft coachwork belonging to Hollinsheads of Scholar Green in Cheshire during a PSV Circle Manchester tour on 13th April 1969. Fantastic tour which brought out Fodens from every nook and cranny. I think the tour was organised by the late Peter Roberts.

Ian Lynas

17/01/13 – 05:24

As far as I know Peter Roberts is still with us! Hardly any bus enthusiasts in the Manchester area doesn’t know of him, remembering with affection the PSV Circle meetings which still continue today, but I particularly remember the halcyon days of the late ‘sixties/early seventies (when Ian was there too!). They were in the Briton’s Protection hotel overlooking Lower Mosley Street and always very popular.

David Beilby

17/01/13 – 11:50

Can anybody lend me some photographs from this visit to Hollinshead’s (or scan them for me at 300 dpi or better)? I’m currently working on a book about Northwest independents and prints of their (pre 1970) vehicles have proven surprisingly hard to find. Weirdly, I’ve never knowingly met Peter Roberts although for several years I lived on Dane Road in Sale – virtually around the corner! I am of course familiar with his reputation as an outstanding photographer. Help?

Neville Mercer

23/01/13 – 13:16

My apologies to Peter Roberts. Good to hear he is still around and if you keep contact with him, thank him for the meetings which had a good smattering of everything, an ability to talk to like-minded enthusiasts, a quick formal part, great slide presentation and lots of info about what was going on in the local bus world. Thanks also David, I might have to reward you with a picture of your good self and others with Southport Crossley 116.
to Neville Mercer, I only took one other shot at Hollinsheads of a fairly new Duple Dominant, GTU 119G. It is already scanned at 300 dpi at 3008 x 2000. Any good Neville.

Ian Lynas

24/01/13 – 11:08

The Dominant is a bit new for my tastes, Ian, and would have been delivered after Hollinshead’s stage service ended. I would like a scan of your shot of NTU 125 though – I already have several, but all taken after it entered preservation. Anybody else got any photographs of Hollinshead’s half-cab Fodens or Bedford OWB bus?

Neville Mercer

24/01/13 – 12:20

Mind you, GTU 119G is either a mistake or a re-registration as the Dominant was introduced for the 1973 (L suffix) registration year. [Duple quality (almost) at its worst – how were the mighty fallen.]

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

13/03/14 – 16:51

The Hollinshead Leopard referred to was actually a Duple Commander. It was reputedly bought outright off the Duple stand by family members visiting the 1968 Commercial Motor Show and was in effect a ‘new generation’ vehicle. Previous purchases for over 10 years had been Bedford SB (petrol and diesel)and latterly all second hand. The off white/tangerine band livery on GTU became the fleet standard. Although unconfirmed, at the time of its arrival some 18 months later usually reliable sources stated that second hand (and similarly liveried)OOP 173G had been the Bedford/Viceroy counterpart of GTU 119G at he 1968 show.

Keith Wood

Warrington Corporation – Foden PVD6 – OED 217 – 112

Warrington Corporation - Foden PVD6 - OED 217 - 112

Warrington Corporation
1956
Foden PVD6
East Lancs H30/28R

We don’t see many Foden buses south of Birmingham, and we don’t see many Warrington buses down here either, so here is a view which fits both categories. OED 217 is a Foden PVD6 from 1956, when she was built for Warrington (still in Lancashire at that time!) Corporation. She has an East Lancs H58R body and is seen in the St Catherine’s Park & Ride site in Winchester, on 1 January, 2010, during one of those famous King Alfred Running Days.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

13/10/13 – 08:11

As I said, the day after this was photographed – having ridden on it – a beautiful bus; superbly restored and expertly driven.

David Oldfield

13/10/13 – 14:43

The vehicle looks superb, with very handsome bodywork.
I saw another Warrington Foden PVD6 a couple of weeks ago, parked alongside track, at Onibury level crossing, on the A49, just south of Craven Arms, Salops. Impossible to stop or go back because it is a narrow, busy, road and parking appeared to be difficult. It appears to be fleet No. 102 (MED168) dating from 1954, with a Crossley body, not too dissimilar from the above one, from the brief glimpse I got (wife was driving). It was parked in the open air and looks a bit sad. I hope it won’t go the way of all metal. Incidentally, from a brief visit to Warrington some yeaasrs ago, I seem to recall the destination blind, “NOT IN SERVICE – SORRY! How polite!

Chris Hebbron

13/10/13 – 18:41

David Oldfield’s review of this same New Years Day out in Winchester appears in the “ARTICLES” section on this site!

Pete Davies

14/10/13 – 08:16

I can’t resist a digression here Chris H when you mention Onibury. Do you know Stokesay Court, a wonderful old mansion which lies in glorious grounds. It was taken over as a military hospital in WW1 and my Dad recuperated there from awful injuries on The Somme. The owners by the turn of the century were experiencing financial difficulty in maintaining the place, understandably, until a film company came looking for a stately home for an epic movie and Stokesay Court was chosen – so “Atonement” has to all intents and purposes saved the beautiful old place. Apologies, and now back to Warrington.

Chris Youhill

15/10/13 – 07:18

I went to visit Stokesay, en passant, some months after seeing the slightly flawed ‘Atonement’, but it only took pre-booked tours. We walked around the impressive building and grounds, then moved on. Frustrating, Chris!
A couple of weeks ago, we didn’t have time!

Chris Hebbron

15/10/13 – 11:34

Chris, I was very fortunate indeed as regards Stokesay Court. Among my Dad’s belongings were a couple of sepia postcards of the place – he never actually mentioned it – and it always filled me with curiosity and so, before the “Atonement” period, I decided to take a couple of night’s B & B in the Craven Arms and just look at the place from outside for a bit of “closure.” I took the few mementos with me and asked at the local Tourist Office where I was told that the Court was, of course, a private residence with no public access. I briefly told the helpful ladies the reasons for my visit, expecting that would be the end of the matter. “Just a minute” said one, and went to an adjacent room where she could be heard making a phone call, and explaining to whoever was on the other end that “there’s a gentleman ‘ere with documents and postcards etc etc.” She returned and I was stunned and delighted to be told “Go straight there now, and Miss Caroline Magnus will talk to you and show you round.” Can you imagine my feelings in, I think 2001, to enter the place where seventy odd years before my wounded Dad had recovered from the horrors of the Somme. Miss Magnus (owner of the Court) was most charming and interesting and spent some time with me. She was particularly taken with the khaki military hymn/prayer book – a copy of which was given to each convalescent soldier – which was signed in good old “Swan” blue/black ink by her forbear who was the owner at the time – the inscription reads :-
“Sergeant Youhill, 15 West Yorks. Hoping this will help you and bring you happy memories of Stokesay Court Onibury Shropshire. Margaret Rotton.”
The book is one of my most treasured possessions. “15 West Yorks” was of course the “Leeds Pals” who were practically obliterated on the Somme.
With renewed apologies to the good townsfolk of Warrington – now hold very tight please !!

Chris Youhill

16/10/13 – 06:52

Looking at this photo brings it home to me just how much we have lost with the virtual demise of municipal transport. Here we have an operator that bought these vehicles from a small scale manufacturer (at least of buses) no doubt to support local industry with Sandbach being only a stones throw from Warrington. In addition we have a superb livery in what may be termed the ‘traditional’ style, unfettered by advertisements and route branding. We have a clear fleetname with the civic crest on the side panels and a clear and correctly set destination display. I know this is a posed photo in the preservation era but they were really like that in normal service. Warrington had other interesting buses as well with Bristol K6G’s and Leyland PD2 specials with longer but narrower 7’6″ wide bodies. Ah nostalgia and civic pride!

Philip Halstead

16/10/13 – 06:52

You definitely deserved red carpet treatment, Chris, and I’m glad it was afforded to you by some very kind folk. No such luck with a great uncle of mine, killed by a sniper on Oct 14th 1914, a couple of weeks after arrival!
And now three rings on the bell!

Chris Hebbron

16/10/13 – 09:42

Philip, as you rightly say this unusual vehicle is quite simply magnificent – the combination of dignified civic pride and good taste with an out of the ordinary mix of chassis and body types. The Fodens were superb vehicles but, for the want of a better expression, needed driving properly. I’d only been driving about two or three weeks when I was asked to run an extra coach on the very popular Sunday evening trips from Otley – price 3/3d per ticket !! I eagerly agreed although I’d no idea at the time where Bishop Monkton was – it involved the treacherous ascent of Norwood Edge – and was allocated MUA 864 similar the 867 below.

MUA 867

The late turn garage man, a very kindly experienced chap who was a mentor of mine in many ways quietly gasped “’E’s not give thi’ t’Fodden as ‘e??” When I quakingly replied that “he” had poor old Jackie went white and confided “Well, whativver tha’ does – for God’s sake pull up at bottom o’ Norwood Edge and gerrit i’ fust gear – cos if tha dunt and tha tries to change down tha’ll miss it un roll straight back inter t’ ressivoy.” Bless dear old Jackie – a kindly saint in overalls. The other driver in the Tiger Cub made sure that I wasn’t left behind, and it was a grand trip which taught me an early lesson with the Fodens – just get the revs wrong by one rpm and the high pitched screeching could be heard for miles around !!

Chris Youhill

16/10/13 – 14:09

Indeed a grand-looking vehicle. Foden’s simple, yet distinctive design for concealing the radiator was surely one of the most attractive of the ‘new look’ fronts then coming into fashion. It just seemed to blend in well with most body styles, whether double-decker, single-decker or coach. (Would I be right in thinking that Foden supplied complete front and bonnet assemblies to the coachbuilders?) Philip, you are so right that the photo brings home much of what has been lost over the years – individuality, civic pride and support for local industry. (Even allowing for inflation, I’m sure fares were also cheaper then too. To travel the one and a half miles from home into Harrogate now costs £2.20 each way. Is that a lot or am I just being a stereotypical Yorkshireman?)
Chris, I loved the story about your Sunday evening excursion up Norwood Edge, as I know it and Lindley Wood ‘ressivoy’ very well. I can vouch for the steepness of the hill, and the sharpness of its bend as you near the top. Hopefully the wonderful views from the summit took your passengers minds off the snail-paced climb in first gear to get there.

Brendan Smith

17/10/13 – 11:40

Brendan – I doubt if the passengers even noticed the view after four or five miles of my woeful attempt to become a polished coach driver on such a “difficult for the unfamiliar” vehicle !! As many of them were no doubt used to seeing me issuing bus tickets as a conductor I fear that they may have been mentally checking their life assurance policies and hoping against hope for a final pint at Bishop Monkton.

Chris Youhill

18/10/13 – 07:56

How I agree with your last point, Chris, the world looks a much better place hurtling to your doom AFTER having a pint or two! Lucky that a chance meeting enabled you all to live another day! I have to say I’ve never seen a single deck version of the PVD, only the rear-engined version. Rather nice looking.

Chris Hebbron

18/10/13 – 17:04

A Plaxton, no less.

David Oldfield

18/10/13 – 17:06

Chris H – there was good news for the reluctant mountaineers after their drinks as the return journey to Otley was by an equally picturesque but less exciting route.

MUA 864

Here is a picture of the actual Foden, MUA 864, while waiting for a peak Summer express duplicate for West Yorkshire RCC – an enormous and highly lucrative contract for Samuel Ledgard. The coach is in the superb original “black roof” livery.

ONW 20

This other picture shows ONW 2 – the two stroke 37 seater of 1951 which had appeared at the Commercial Motor Show as “FWP 1951.” It was unchallenged in its heyday as the fastest PSV in the area, and for Winter comfort and ambience sported a two bar electric fire with cheery “coals.” It is shown here in Chester Street, Bradford, also on a WYRCC express relief.

Chris Youhill

22/10/13 – 17:34

Fodens south of Birmingham – some ran in South Wales – Caerphilly and West Mon both had single-deckers.

Geoff Kerr

23/10/13 – 05:48

Merthyr bought six double-deckers with unfortunate-looking Welsh Metal Industries bodies.

David Beilby

23/10/13 – 11:47

Here’s an WMI-bodied Foden supplied to Smith’s of Barrhead: www.flickr.com/photos/

Chris Hebbron

23/10/13 – 15:56

Do you think the WMI body is a poor copy of Weymann’s? [Especially the external roof ribs.] Apart from Weymann and Roe, there were some really stylish bodies in the late 40′ and early ’50s – and then there were some real dogs!

David Oldfield

23/10/13 – 15:56

Try www.alangeorge.co.uk/buses.htm  for a comprehensive gallery of Merthyr buses. Daimler, Leyland, Bristol and I’m not so sure….. includes these WNI Fodens with their (seemingly) shallow windows, and some newspaper cuttings including the hero driver who saved his passengers on the ice (bet you couldn’t do that in today’s straight-line specials).

Joe

23/10/13 – 15:57

Here’s a Foden of West Mon: //tinyurl.com/nf2ajo7  and here is a Welsh Metal Industries advert of 1948, showing a Merthyr bus.

wmi_ad

Note the great play being made of their light alloy bodies, primarily sourced from aluminium used from broken up wartime aircraft.

Chris Hebbron

23/10/13 – 16:47

Smiths of Barrhead seemed to favour Fodens. In addition to CGA 235 they had WMI bodied GGD 306 and Massey bodied JYS 466 which, though lowbridge like the WMI bodies, showed a much more sympathetic understanding of the Foden concealed radiator design albeit marred slightly by Massey’s then usual steeply raked top deck profile (see Classic Bus No 112 front cover for an excellent photo).

Orla Nutting

23/10/13 – 17:39

Plaxton, Metalcraft and Whitson seemed to get it right with the coaches and East Lancs (above) probably the best decker.
The Willowbrook that Tracky had from Cawthorne (ex demonstrator) was a bit of a dog, as well. Checking back, it’s not that different from the WMI design. Was this a Foden design used by both concerns?

David Oldfield

24/10/13 – 07:46

Welsh Metal Industries was one of the regional subsidiaries of the Metal Industries Group which also owned Sentinel at this time, and the bodywork was constructed from “stock” MI Group components used by customers such as J C Beadle. If you compare the downstairs windows of the PVD6 in the WMI ad to any shot of a Sentinel-bodied single-decker you will immediately spot the uncanny resemblance. Whitson also used these components (panels and window-pans) on the three SLC6/30 saloons it bodied to Sentinel’s basic design, even though these were timber-framed. The same basic parts had originally been supplied to JC Beadle in the late 1940s for the various semi-integral saloons they built using Bedford, Leyland Cub, and Morris running units.

Neville Mercer

14/02/14 – 07:01

I have driven this Warrington corporation Foden many miles when I lived in England and worked for Warrington corporation transport and seeing this on you site brought back many happy memories. Thanks for posting it

Ken Wilkinson

28/09/14 – 06:43

That Foden is still in the open at Onibury today, together with a sd Foden and at least one other vehicle. All in the open and unprotected.

Tony Martin

28/09/14 – 12:32

Gosh Tony, not often we hear of Onibury (Shropshire) but at Stokesay Court there, which was a military hospital in WW1, my Dad recovered from wounds suffered on the Somme. The mansion has recently appeared in the film “Atonement.” What a shame that the Fodens appear to be vulnerable like this.

Chris Youhill

28/09/14 – 18:25

For anyone with deep pockets and a lot of time on their hands, OED 217 is for sale on Ebay for the first £18000 offer. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TV-Star-1956-Foden-PVD6-East-Lancs-Double-Deck-Bus

Orla Nutting

29/09/14 – 07:40

Sad if a superb, and superbly restored, bus ends up in PSV heaven for the want of a good, and solvent carer. Similarly, as Roger has intimated many times before, there are hoards of RTs and RMs in preservation but very few Fodens. For that reason alone it ought to be saved let alone the other fact, as I have said before, that Fodens were unassailably quality vehicles in their own right.

David Oldfield

02/10/14 – 07:55

This vehicle has been for sale at a totally unrealistic price for several years now. It breaks my heart to see it under threat because the owner (apparently) has the idea that he should recover some of the money he has spent on it in the past. We all know that Bedford OBs fetch fancy prices, but they’re easy to maintain and store (as well as being too cute for words!). Compare the price for the Foden with other similar vehicles in the small ads of B&CP – you could get three fully restored ‘deckers for this amount. Incidentally, does anyone know the current status of the other (Crossley bodied) Warrington Foden which went into preservation?

Neville Mercer

02/10/14 – 11:32

Prices are irrelevant – it’s what people will will pay is the important point. Crosville Motors of WSM have a Lodekka and FLF for sale at £22,500 each. Both in full working order and also can be viewed on Ebay. Of course these are Bristols so obviously more desirable!!!

Ken Jones

03/10/14 – 07:01

NO bias, then, Ken!

Chris Hebbron

05/05/15 – 07:17

I notice some people mentioning about the WBT bus that’s at Onibury on here. I live in Ludlow (we actually moved from Warrington to Ludlow) and it was my dad that actually noticed the WBT buses parked up there. I’ve got a bit of a fear of level crossings (siderodromaphobia) so don’t tend to like crossing there, but I do know if you go from Ludlow end just after the level crossing there is a turning right into Onibury. The A49 is certainly not a place you want to stop to take pictures but if you turn in there, there is plenty of space on Back Lane to park and then walk back round to the level crossing.
I’m quite sure I’ve spotted at least 2 Warrington Borough Transport buses there. I think one of them even has the destination of Wilderspool Causeway on it. Don’t know who owns them or anything about the people living there, but there does seem to be a lot of people living Ludlow who actually moved from Warrington, including Pete Postlethwaite used to live here.

Darren

05/05/15 – 11:54

MED 168

The attached picture of MED 168 was taken in September 2014 – from on the level crossing mentioned by Darren. As can be seen, there were some other vehicles on site – the white Foden coach being KMA 553, but registrations of the others could not be seen from the road.

Peter Delaney

05/05/15 – 11:56

The Foden PSVs were high quality fascinating vehicles. I’m interested in the present location of these two, as when my Dad returned injured from the horrors of The Somme in 1917 he was convalescent at Stokesay Court, Onibury – a mansion which had been given over to military hospital use. I visited the house a few years ago when there were financial difficulties, as with many such gems, but its use in the making of the film “Atonement” has apparently improved its fortunes which is pleasing to hear. Sorry to digress, but for warrington buses to end up there is quite a journey.

Chris Youhill

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/02/20 – 06:33

The gentleman at Onibury just loves Fodens and when the 1 of only 2 foden double deckers left came up for sale he had to buy it. The single deckers would have been scrapped if he had not saved them and restored them as they were virtually past repair. If you call in as I did when passing he doesn’t mind showing you round, he restores other vehicles as well but rarely rallies them, which is a pity.

Andy Dobson

06/02/20 – 05:50

Steve at Onibury had two half-cab foden coaches and made one good one out of them. Talented engineer.

Roger Burdett

Charles Rickards – Dodge S307 – AYV 94B


Copyright Steve Vallance

Charles Rickards
1964
Dodge S307/190T
Strachans C42F

In the early Sixties, Chrysler launched an attempt to enter the UK psv market, using the Dodge name. The chassis was placed in the “medium duty” category, heavier than a Bedford/Thames, for example, whilst lighter than the AEC/Leyland range. A Leyland engine was planned for the chassis.
In 1964, after they had changed the specification several times, Charles Rickards of Brentford took delivery of five of the S307/190T model, which had Perkins 6.354 diesel engines, which, together with higher-geared rear axles and five-speed gearboxes, were to give the vehicles a top speed of over 70 mph. The engine was mounted at the front of the vehicle, although the front axle was set back to provide an entrance ahead of the front wheels. They were designed for medium-distance touring, although they seemed to spend a lot of time on sightseeing duties in and around London, frequenting Hampton Court Palace quite a lot. This view shows one on duty around Heathrow Airport, possibly in later years..
The C42F body was by Strachans, some of the last bodies they produced. They seemed to have novel opening windows.
Only one other Dodge coach chassis was built, an S308 demonstrator, with a Leyland engine and a Weymann body.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

29/09/14 – 07:42

Remarkably similar to post Topaz MCW coach body – especially the front. The fact that they share the BET screen adds to this impression – as do a slightly unfocussed frontal treatment and the plain, “honest box” overall style. It is nowhere near ugly; it simply doesn’t thrill!

David Oldfield

29/09/14 – 11:15

Strachans made the most successful if not best bodies for the AEC Swift/Merlin – due to a design which was unique at the time. They were around quite some time but never made the big time. What were their bodies really like? How good were they? How good were these on the Dodges? […..and I never came across any of these Dodges. How good were they – or were they simply Dodgy?]

David Oldfield

29/09/14 – 15:26

I was at Rickards from 1965 and seem to remember the Dodges’ as pretty reliable but a bit noisy and so they were kept on the service from the British Eagle terminal at Knightsbridge to Heathrow as the guides complained about the engine noise when used on sightseeing tours. They were repainted in British Eagle livery for this work, Rickards being part of the same group at the time.

John Hodkinson

29/09/14 – 18:53

One of their successful designs was the Pacemaker, which sold in modest numbers around the country. Those AEC Swift/Merlins which lasted with London Transport (usually the ones modified to become Red Arrows) served a term of about 15 years and the bodies are reported to have been well-made.
With only six of the Dodges built, it would have been a miracle to see one, but I wish I had!
It maybe that the bodies do lack the ‘look-back’ factor, but I admire their clean lines, all very parallel!
Does anyone have a record of their later lives, and that of the demonstrator?

Chris Hebbron

30/09/14 – 06:30

David, I’m not sure which MCW coach body you’re referring to. This one, //tinyurl.com/lhn8bse  called the Metropolitan, has a front dome which is identical to the Strachans body, but uses a single-curvature windscreen instead of the BET unit. Strangely, production of the last 10 of these Metropolitans was subcontracted to Strachans. There would have been more but the orders dried up.
Strachans reputation was patchy to say the least, especially on the double deck front. But as you say, the Swift/Merlins were very well thought of, and the same was true of the Panthers they built for Sunderland (the Panther using the same chassis frame as the Swift/Merlin of course).

Peter Williamson

30/09/14 – 18:32

Yes I did mean the Metropolitan. I think if you look closely, it is the same screen.

David Oldfield

01/10/14 – 05:50

Strachans also built a lot of bodies on Bedford SB chassis, for the armed forces, which were long-lasting.
But others, as Peter W mentions, were not of good quality.
Thx, John H, for some insight into the characteristics of these vehicles. Maybe the Perkins engines, rather than the planned Leyland ones were noisier in operation.
One would have thought that more engine insulation was achievable.

Chris Hebbron

01/10/14 – 11:54

The pioneer production chassis with front engine and set back front axle, at least in Britain, was the Maudslay SF40 of 1934 which achieved quite reasonable sales until production was halted by WW2. The petrol engined version was more satisfactory than the diesel options, which employed the heavier and bulkier Gardner 4LW or 5LW, neither of which offered great refinement or dazzling road performance. Post war, the same concept was revived in the Guy Wulfrunian, which suffered by having the physically large Gardner 6LX cantilevered forward of the front wheels. All the other manufacturers who adopted the same design principle opted to reduce the load on the front axle by fitting small, high revving engines in the overhang. Bedford, Ford and Seddon, and Volvo with the Ailsa ‘decker, all followed this course. The very basic US Blue Bird school bus, sometimes seen around US air bases in Britain, is probably the most commercially successful example of the concept. The lightweight Dodge S306 (Leyland O.370) and S307 (Perkins 6.354) of 1962 were the first proper psv chassis to come from the Kew factory, and some thought seemed to have gone into the design which offered vacuum- or air-hydraulic operation of the braking system, and a five speed constant mesh (later synchromesh) gearbox. The drawbacks proved to be the very constricted front entrance steps, the awkward gear lever arrangement inherent in the mounting of a gearbox directly behind the front engine, but, most importantly, the high noise level within the vehicle. The O.370 was by no means a quiet engine, but the Perkins 6.354 was raucous in the extreme, and no amount of engine cover padding could have muffled its din. Most of the limited sales of Dodges were bodied as buses, but, as Chris has shown, Rickards did take some as coaches. I can well appreciate that they were not popular in such a role. Dodge withdrew the S306/S307 from the market in 1967. The side windows in these Strachans bodies appear to be of the ‘Auster’ type, which Aldershot & District fitted to the front upper deck windows of its Lolines. These were hopper windows which had the upper half permanently fixed outwards at about 45 degrees, and the lower part could be pulled inwards from the closed position through about 90 degrees to regulate the degree of ventilation. They worked well at the front of a double decker; I cannot believe that they were truly effective as fitted in the coach bodies shown.

Roger Cox

02/10/14 – 07:58

The side vent windows certainly look like the Auster product and look to be pairs of the standard vent per bay. Very similar to the vents on the BMMO C5.

Phil Blinkhorn

02/10/14 – 08:01

Thx, Roger, for the very interesting and informative information. I’ve always had a soft spot for the Maudslay SF40, which always seemed to have wonderful art deco bodies, the image only spoilt by the obvious starting handle!
When you look at the photo of the Dodge, you can see how narrow the door seems to be and imagine how tortuous the steps must have been to get around the engine bulge.

auster

I’d never heard of the Auster draughtproof windows, but here is a 1955 advert illustrating how they were supposed to work. I wonder if the company was part of the aircraft factory.

Chris Hebbron

02/10/14 – 11:3402/10/14 – 11:34

CH It looks like it is, and they made windows for other people as well. //mgaguru.com/mgtech/windscrn/

John Lomas

03/10/14 – 06:58

On the C5, Phil, the angled Auster windows are sort-of replicated by shape by the windscreen angles.
Thx, John L, and second half of the Auster TRIPLEX name is very well-known.

Chris Hebbron

03/10/14 – 11:06

Chris Hebron queries the possibility of a link between the Auster vent manufacturer and the aircraft manufacturer. The only link could be that the former may (and I can find no proof that it did or did not) have supplied screens or locks to the latter.
The Auster Company of Birmingham was founded in 1841 and was eventually incorporated in 1897. From the early 1900s they made a variety of screens, vents, axles, motor and coach fittings springs and other ironwork, mostly for the automotive industry.
In 1937 it went into aircraft parts making windscreens, cockpit covers and other parts and continued in this endeavour during WW2.
The Auster Aircraft company started life in 1938 as Taylorcraft Aircraft (England) Ltd at Thurmaston, Leicester, building licenced copies of the American Taylorcraft designs. Widely used as observation aircraft by the RAF and Army and Canadian Forces during and after WW2 the company’s UK products became one of the leading UK suppliers of private light aircraft post war, in part due to import restrictions on foreign built aircraft. With a manufacturing plant at Syston and final assembly at Rearsby the company built over 1600 aircraft during WW2. On March 7 1946 the name of the company was changed to Auster Aircraft and production was transferred to Rearsby. The company became part of Beagle Aircraft in 1960 when Pressed Steel Company took over Auster and Miles Aircraft. The Rearsby facility became Beagle-Auster, the Miles facility at Shoreham became Beagle-Miles. In 1965 Beagle was taken over by the British Motor Corporation which immediately sought finance from the UK government which bought the company in 1966. After various attempts to gain a solid market, the company was dissolved in 1969. Many Austers are still on the British register and the Beagle Bulldog, which first flew just as the company was being dissolved and was later manufactured by Scottish Aviation and then BAe, became a reasonable success selling 320 copies mainly to air forces. Last built in 1976 a number remain in military service and a few fly as private aircraft.

Further information to confirm that the two Auster companies had no real connection is that the aircraft company was founded by A L Wykes, Managing Director of Crowthers Ltd., a textile machinery company of Thurmaston. In 1938 he travelled to the USA and negotiated a licence agreement to build Taylorcraft aircraft in the UK, the UK company being registered on November 21 1938

Phil Blinkhorn

03/10/14 – 17:26

The relationship between BMC and liquidation will not be lost here, although in 1969 the worst was yet to be….

Joe

03/10/14 – 17:26

I have been reading the article on Dodge/Strachans vehicles, which claims only 6 built including a demo, I have 6 with Rickards?
Rickard,W2 AYV 93B Dodge S307/190T S307 8311 Stn 52140 C41F 6/64
Rickard,W2 AYV 94B Dodge S307/190T S307 8571S Stn 52141 C41F 7/64
Rickard,W2 AYV 95B Dodge S307/190T S307 8590 Stn 54142 C41F 7/64
Rickard,W2 AYV 96B Dodge S307/190T S307 9430 Stn 54143 C39F 7/64
Rickard,W2 AYV 97B Dodge S307/190T S307 9404S Stn 54144 C39F 7/64
Rickard,W2 AYV 98B Dodge S307/190T S307 9411 Stn 54145 C38F 7/64
Used on British Eagle contracts.
I remember seeing these on day trips to Margate.
Can anyone tell me what registration was the elusive Demonstrator S308 mentioned in the text?
Photo credit of AYV 84B I believe should go to Steve Vallance coach and bus, an uncropped view is on facebook.

Ron

04/10/14 – 06:42

Thx for clarifying the Auster Aircraft situation, Phil.
From Ron’s info (thx) it’s intriguing that the number of seats went down and down for the last vehicles. One wonders if this was an attempt to ease the entrance congestion, or maybe to get the front passengers away from the noise!!!
Incidentally, my photo was bought at a bus rally a couple of years ago, with a blank reverse.

Chris Hebbron

04/10/14 – 06:43

Pleased to read Ron’s comment that he thought there were 6 Dodges. I too was thinking there were 6, not 5, but putting it down to a ‘senior moment’!
(AYV 92B was a Bedford Val/Yeates. also very unpopular with guides for having a noisy engine)

John Hodkinson

15/07/15 – 05:58

To clarify matters on the subject of demonstrators Bus Lists On The Web lists two, both 42-seat buses, Leyland-engined 2496PK had a Weymann body and was new in September 1962. Perkins engined 3033PE had a Marshall body, was first registered in March 1964 and ended up on the Isle of Harris with a Leyland engine and is seen here:

Stephen Allcroft

02/03/16 – 07:08

I’m unusually late to this conversation, even by my own standards – but I hope the following might still be of interest . . . the fact that it’s so tardy might give a clue as just how difficult it is to gather information about London’s coach operators.
Charles Rickards (Tours) Ltd business was originally in the provision of sightseeing tours, since 1946 these were marketed as “Universal Sightseeing Tours” after the company of that name (founded 1933) was taken over. Subsequently transfer services between Heathrow and central London were operated for a number of airlines: at differing times services were provided for Aerolineas Argentinas, British Eagle, Loftleidir Airways, PanAm, TWA, and United Arab Airlines – the last transfer services (for PanAm and TWA, to Victoria) ceased in November 1981). Rail-Air Link services were developed, in conjunction with British Railways, from 1963, when a service was established between Heathrow and High Wycombe; subsequently services were provided to Woking and Watford (a service to Reading being provided by Thames Valley). It was the development of operations based on Heathrow Airport that led, in 1965, to the offices and garage being moved to Glenhurst Road, Brentford from Paddington.
In 1965 ownership of Rickards was acquired by British Eagle International Airlines, one of the principal independent UK scheduled airlines of that time. British Eagle wished to provide its passengers with an improved service between its London terminal at Knightsbridge and Heathrow – ownership of Rickards would provide a competitive edge over rival airlines. A number of Rickards coaches (c17% fleet strength) were painted in the British Eagle colours of red/grey/black – around 9000 journeys were made per week on the British Eagle transfer services. 1967 was not a good year for the UK airline industry: the Arab-Israeli “Six Day War”, a military coup in Greece, Spanish tightening of border restrictions on Gibraltar, and a 15% reduction in the valuation of the pound, all conspired against the airline industry by reducing the demand for international travel – as part of an all-round belt tightening British Eagle disposed of its Rickards subsidiary to Frames’ Tours Ltd in 1967. British Eagle ceased trading in November 1968.
Frames’ business was largely British and continental extended tours, with around 95% of clients being from overseas (the overwhelming majority from the USA and Canada) – Rickards operations, Heathrow-London transfers and day-tours, must have seemed a good addition. Frames’ head office was at 25-31 Tavistock Place WC1, and their garage and coach station at Herbrand St WC1 – Frames utilised the basement whilst Daimler Hire Ltd (later Hertz) used the upper floors for garaging, with their work-shop being situated on the top floor. During the early 1970s a subsidiary company, Frames’ Travel (Gatwick) Ltd, operated from a base near Redhill.
The Frames and Rickards businesses were merged as Frames-Rickards Ltd in 1983. Immediately prior to amalgamation the fleet strenghts were: Frames, 20 heavy-weights, all with bodies less than 5y (roughly the same fleet size as 1967); Rickards, 17 heavy-weights (four in Heathrow-Woking Rail-Air livery), 5 light-weights, and 1 mini-bus (just under a 50% reduction in fleet size since 1967, but with a similar age profile of 1-10y). The combined Frames-Rickards business was acquired by Golden Tours (founded 1984, and against whom Frames-Rickards had objected to the granting of licenses) in 2001. The Herbrand St premises were redeveloped as offices for the current occupier from 2002.
Frames’ livery was originally two-tone blue, but around 1977 changed to black with red fleet-name and flag logo. Rickards’ livery was a two-tone maroon with black relief, with a Royal Warrant carried since 1936.

Philip Rushworth

08/05/16 – 05:58

One more can be added to the list of Dodge chassis although not an S307.
In 1964 Plaxton built a dual entrance coach for Penn Overland Transport, Jamaica. It is illustrated on page 51 of “Plaxton 100 Years” (ISBN 07110 3209 2).
It had Dodge chassis S305-190 8454, Plaxton C30D body 642341, and was delivered in June 1964.

John Kaye

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

26/01/18 – 05:14

For the Rickards bodies on the Dodge chassis, if I remember rightly the chassis was a nightmare for body mounting. Someone who worked at Rickards may be able to comment more but I think that the chassis frame was not flat and the main rails were not parallel. As this body was more of a coach style, the stepwell needed to be as large as possible. I spent a lot of hours with Dave Hoy, the senior designer, on our knees on the full size layout tables designing the front end.

Dick Henshall

London County Council – Dennis Triton – MUL 614

MUL 614

London County Council
1952
Dennis Triton TV3
Dennis B21C

The Dennis company during its independent days was ever prepared to meet specialist needs in the passenger, municipal and haulage transport fields. The Dennis Triton was a flat framed, small passenger chassis, seemingly a variant of the Pax municipal type, with a wheelbase of 10ft 6ins, though a 9ft 6ins wheelbase version was also available for van bodywork. The engine was the dependable 3.77 litre side valve petrol that had appeared in the 1933 40/45 cwt goods chassis and the contemporary Ace bus. This drove through a wet clutch into a four speed sliding mesh gearbox. The hydraulic brakes were non assisted. From 1952/3 the London County Council operated a fleet of 72 Triton TV3 buses with Dennis bodywork for 21 children with central passenger doors on both nearside and offside to facilitate access. A further two had special 12 seat bodywork with a tail lift to cater for the requirements of disabled children. Only one other Triton was built, which carried a Reading 12 seat body for Jersey Motor Transport in 1953, bringing the production total to 75. This little bus featured on a Jersey postage stamp, as seen here – the 1963 date is an error:- www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/

Ex LCC Triton MUL 614 is seen at Brighton on the occasion of the 1966 HCVC Rally, by then in the ownership of one of the National Saturday Clubs. Perhaps unsurprisingly, given its rather neglected state on that occasion, no present record of this bus seems to exist, nor, sadly, that of any other Triton.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

Chiltern Queens – Dennis Pelican – 530 BPG


Copyright Ray Soper

Chiltern Queens of Woodcote
1956
Dennis Pelican
Duple Midland B44F

This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Chiltern Queens of Woodcote” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

04/07/14 – 07:46

This is the ex demonstrator which was tried out by LT in the Reigate and Caterham areas and also by A&D.
Dennis received no orders and 530BPG was purchased by Yellow Bus Services of Stoughton, Guildford in March 1957, following their vehicles in 1958 it went to Daisy Bus Service and the Trimdon Motor Services before moving to Chiltern Queens,
The body was removed and transferred in modified form to an AEC chassis in around the mid ’70s.
The Dennis chassis was seen on waste ground outside Charlton Queens garage in 1976.
Source: “Happy Family” “The story of Yellow Bus Services Stoughton” by N Hamshere and J Sutton. No ISBN number unfortunately.

John Lomas

04/07/14 – 16:24

The Reliance with this body on it was offered for sale in Bus & Coach Preservation a few years ago, and was stated to be “50% restored”. Does anybody know where it is now?

Neville Mercer

05/07/14 – 17:32

David Kaye, in “Meccano Magazine” of February 1963, on his “Calling all Bus Spotters” page, said that the Pelican was designed to compete with UF single deck market, with vehicles such as the Leyland Tiger Cub, Royal Tiger and Olympic and the ubiquitous AEC Reliance, but was too late on the scene to achieve any success. After Yellow Bus were taken over by Aldershot & District, the vehicle went firstly to TMS and then Daisy of Brigg. With no mention of Chiltern Queens, it’s possible that that move took place after Feb 1963.

Chris Hebbron

06/07/14 – 08:19

As Chris indicates, the only problem with the Pelican was its late arrival, in the autumn of 1956, on a market already dominated by the Reliance and the Tiger Cub, and, at the lighter end, by Bedford. The boom years were already over, and Dennis simply missed the boat. The company recognised the reality of the situation by not putting the Pelican into production. The Guildford firm could not compete on price with AEC and Leyland, though it equalled, and sometimes bettered both on quality. In specification, the Pelican, with its 5.5 litre engine uprated to some 92 bhp and five speed constant mesh gearbox, seemed to be directed particularly at the Tiger Cub market. The Leyland had the 91 bhp O350H engine of 5.76 litres and, initially, only a four speed constant mesh gearbox was available, though a two speed axle was an option. Where driver acceptance was concerned, the Reliance beat all others hands down with its excellent all synchromesh five speed gearbox. It also had the more powerful 6.75 litre AEC AH 410 of 98 bhp, or the 7.685 litre AH 470 of 112 bhp, but these AEC wet liner engines proved to be decidedly troublesome. When bodied, all three competing models weighed about 6 tons unladen. Leyland captured much of the early BET business, but AEC soon worked its way into the company, municipal and independent sectors. There was nowhere for Dennis to go, and it wisely bowed out of the fray. (There was surely a lesson here for Guy with the Wulfrunian.) Nevertheless, the solitary Pelican then went on to a fully productive life of some eighteen years or so, which surely testifies to the initial quality of the engineering and also to the subsequent support by Dennis to keep this unique machine running.

Roger Cox

15/08/14 – 10:45

I was in Woodcote earlier this week and noticed a planning application to demolish the old depot / garage to be replaced by a small housing estate….
To be honest, I didn’t realise that it was still there and thought that it was long since converted to industrial units….
Those who might want final nostalgic visit have about eight weeks before demolition….

Stuart C

Llandudno UDC – Dennis Pax V – FJC 737F

FJC 737F

Llandudno UDC
1968
Dennis Pax V
Dennis B33F

In the latter months of 1968 Llandudno UDC replaced its two Foden PVSC6 coaches, www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ used on the exceedingly steep Great Orme route, with two specially constructed Dennis Pax V buses with Dennis B33F bodywork, registered FJC 736/7F. After the delivery of the last five production Lolines to Halifax in 1967 Dennis had effectively abandoned the bespoke passenger vehicle market, and these were flat framed haulage chassis powered by Perkins 6.354 engines coupled to Dennis U type gearboxes (not, as suggested elsewhere on the internet, David Brown gearboxes). The specially constructed bus bodies, the very last built by Dennis, were delivered in a new livery of blue and cream. The Perkins 6.354 was ever a raucous power unit (I write from experience) and the din inside these buses during the steepest sections of the ascent of the Great Orme must surely have been deafening for drivers and passengers alike, though the standard of ride is said to have been good. Does any OBP aficionado have personal experience of these machines? The photograph was taken in September 1970. On 1st April 1974 Llandudno UDC was subsumed into the new Aberconwy District Council and the two Dennis Pax buses were repainted into a livery of maroon and grey, subsequently maroon and cream. Sadly, FJC 737F was later destroyed, reputably by fire, but FJC 736F survives in a restored condition.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

11/08/22 – 05:52

I may have been partly responsible for spreading the idea that these Dennises had David Brown gearboxes. The information came from Nick Larkin, one-time owner of FJC 736F, when he loaned it to a group of enthusiasts in Chesterfield. As a passenger I believed him, because not only was the arrangement of the gears the same as on the David Brown gearbox of the Bristol SC, but it even exhibited the same characteristic of catching out the unwary driver by moving off in reverse instead of second, which I have heard a Bristol SC owner talk about. It scaled Slack Hill in second gear, and almost repeated the achievement at Cromford, only resorting to first at the very top, after turning into Porter Lane. I can’t say I noticed the noise level inside, but those waiting with cameras outside certainly did! As to liveries, the first Aberconwy DC scheme I would describe as vermilion and grey rather than maroon and grey, and I haven’t seen in-service photos of anything later except blue and advertising schemes. I have been assuming that the new owner’s pseudo Llandudno UDC maroon and cream is a ‘should have been’ statement.

Peter Williamson

12/08/22 – 05:55

Peter W, you’ve just confirmed my recollection of this vehicle, I felt sure I’d had a ride on it and it was at one of Transpire’s Running Days in Chesterfield about ten years ago. I would agree that it was somewhat noisy inside but not unbearably so. I also remember the gearstick being behind the driver to his left, in the same manner as a Bedford SB. It was an interesting ride but I couldn’t help thinking it wasn’t really meant to be a bus though!

Chris Barker

14/08/22 – 05:43

I have driven Bristol SC and SU buses, both of which had the David Brown gearbox, but the gear lever selection positions of the two types differed. On both, the reverse and first gears were located on the far left, forward for reverse, back for first, and these gears were ‘protected’ from the rest of the box by a detente spring that became very weak over time. From there, cautiously moving right in neutral, next came forward for second and back for third, which is how the accidental engagement of reverse instead of second sometimes occurred when the detente spring had weakened. The SCs and SUs that I drove were all secondhand examples run by an independent operator, consequently far from pristine in condition. My technique to avoid the unintended launch in reverse was to deliberately engage reverse on the far left of the box, then carefully go back into neutral and let the stick gently move with the spring to the correct point to allow the forward engagement of second. This took less time to do that it does to describe. Even then I would cautiously engage the clutch to ensure the vehicle was going where I wanted it to go. After the third gear position the SC and the SU differed. To move from third to fourth in the SC one took the stick forward into neutral, over to the right and then back again in an inverted U movement, and then fifth was fully forward from that slot. The SU was more logical, and followed the positioning of the AEC Reliance five speed box, over and forward for fourth and back for fifth. Unsurprisingly, I have never driven a Dennis Pax, but the excellent gearbox in the Dennis Loline III also followed the Reliance selection format, and never once driving these for Aldershot and District did I accidentally engage reverse instead of second. Descriptions of the U type five speed gearbox show that it emulated the Loline box in gear stick positions, which explains the possibility of starting off in reverse, but Dennis gearboxes were fine pieces of engineering, and I can only assume that the protective detente spring in FJC 736F has suffered severely over time. Incidentally, one could never fall into this trap with a Reliance because the gear lever had to be lifted over a ramp to engage first and reverse, so you couldn’t easily get first whilst on the move – it was essentially a crawler gear. On the livery question, is the maroon and cream of the little Guy Wolf accurate?

Roger Cox

15/08/22 – 06:41

The gear positions on FJC 736F were definitely the same as on the SC, complete with inverted U from 3 to 4. Our driver only forgot once, going straight from 3 to 5 and then quickly correcting. So maybe it has been fitted with a David Brown box at some time on its travels.

Peter Williamson

17/08/22 – 06:30

My apologies, Peter. That, as you describe it, is the David Brown gearbox as fitted to the Bristol SC, which is somewhat puzzling. The SC was produced from 1954 to 1961, and its successor, the SU with improved gear selection, from 1960 to 1966. Why would a mere two bus bodied examples of a widely sold Dennis haulage chassis, with a proven drive train of Perkins 6.354 engine and Dennis U type gearbox, appear late in 1968 with an old 1961 type of David Brown box? Surely these two machines didn’t emerge from Guildford in that form. Quite apart from assessing the dubious mechanical benefit of the David Brown box, the re-engineering would have simply increased costs to no discernible advantage – quite the opposite in my view. As far as I am aware, the only alternative gearbox offered by Dennis around that time was the Turner synchromesh. This seemingly straightforward post on the Llandudno Dennis Pax buses has taken a curious turn. Can anyone add to this aspect of the history of these vehicles?

Roger Cox

18/08/22 – 06:42

I remember the two Dennis taking over the Great Orme service from the Fodens but I don’t recall travelling on the Dennis but made several trips over the years on each of the Fodens. The Fodens were fitted with a sprag brake, effectively a ratchet which dropped into a pawl on the transmission when activated by the driver. This was used on the upward journey where the very steep 1 in 4 started just below a terrace of houses and remained in use until about the Half Way station for the tram. This was to prevent a runaway in the event of the engine stalling. Does anyone know if the Dennis pair had this device?

Ian Wild