Aldershot & District Traction Co 1956 Dennis Falcon P5 Strachans B30F
In the 1930s, Dennis manufactured a bewildering choice of small buses for lightly trafficked routes – Dart, Pike, Arrow Minor, Ace and Mace. These were all replaced in 1938 by a single model, the Falcon, available in normal or forward control, with the engine options of Dennis 3.77 side valve petrol or Gardner 4LK or Perkins P6 diesel. By the onset of WW2 only around 50 had been produced. Aldershot & District took delivery of nine petrol engined Falcons with four speed gearboxes and Strachans B20F bodywork in 1939, but they saw little use before being stored for the duration of the conflict. They were placed back in service after the war but, being petrol powered, all were withdrawn by 1951. It may seem rather surprising that Aldershot & District did not consider converting these little buses to diesel power, but they had been stored in the open in the Aldershot sports field for much of the war, and the bodywork had suffered quite severely. Instead, in 1949/50, the company took delivery of fifteen new Falcons of almost identical appearance to the earlier batch, though these were of the P3 type with Gardner 4LK engines and five speed gearboxes, and the B20F bodies were built by Dennis. In 1951/2 they were reseated to B24F. Withdrawal took place between 1956 and 1960. No less than 15 more Falcons, now of the upgraded and longer P5 variety but still with 4LK engines and five speed gearboxes, arrived in 1954, and a further 8 came two years later, all with Strachans B30F bodywork. These buses marked the end of an era, as they were the last Dennis single deckers and the final Strachans bodies to be bought by Aldershot & District. The last of the batch, POR 428, fleet no. 282, was withdrawn by the Aldershot company in 1967, and, along with many of its fellows, was sold to the Isle of Man. In 1997 it was rescued and returned to the mainland, where the next thirteen years were taken up with its restoration; see-: www.adbig.co.uk/282.html In the picture above 282 is seen in 1961 at Petersfield Station, awaiting departure on the very rural route 53 to Alton. A Dennis Loline I arriving from Guildford on route 24 pulls in behind.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
26/04/15 – 11:10
If I remember rightly, these buses were a ‘challenge’ to drive. The driver’s signalling window was higher than the driver’s elbow level, being closer to his shoulder level, so requiring an upward angle for his arm. I think only his hand could actually reach out, because the driver’s seat was so far inboard. And the raked steering wheel was not positioned on the centre line of the driver’s seat either. So he was always steering through a bit of an angle – a bit like riding a horse side-saddle!
Petras409
27/04/15 – 07:47
Obviously from an era when pride in the fleet was something to be encouraged. Today’s attitude seems to be that pride is an unnecessary outdated luxury, which is an expensive time consuming drain on recourses.
Ronnie Hoye
27/04/15 – 07:48
Quite a few types of normal control buses seem to have had the steering column positioned further towards the centre of the vehicle than forward control machines. I have never driven a Falcon, but this was certainly true of the Bedford OB, the Leyland Comet and the Guy GS. In my experience of all these other examples, the bodywork tapered inwards towards the front of the vehicle allowing reasonable access to the signalling window. The Strachans body design on these Falcons retained parallel sides right up to the bonnet, and I can well appreciate the difficulty of actually extending one’s signalling arm to as mentioned by Petras 409. I agree also, that the signalling window was set absurdly high for practical use, the saloon window level being set at a higher level than that of the exactly contemporary GS, which was a delightful little bus to drive. Strachans didn’t take ergonomics into account when designing these Falcon bodies.
Roger Cox
12/02/21 – 12:20
Here is a view of 282 in its ‘new’ guise as Isle of Man Road Services 29 at Ramsey depot on 12 August 1967, so very shortly after its transfer, and still in A&D colours. There is evidence of partial repainting, as the bonnet top and dash clearly have fresh paint compared with the slightly faded wings and bonnet sides, as have the centre side panels where the new fleetname appears.
Also a view of two of its siblings in the workshops in Douglas in the course of makeover, taken on the same day. These look as if they have already received the IOMRS red livery, as even in monochrome there would be a clear difference between the two tones of A&D green.
To complete the picture there is also a view of the predecessor 29, already decommissioned, also at Ramsey – Bedford OWB/Duple UB32F of 1945.
Southdown Motor Services 1939 Dennis Falcon P4 Harrington B30C
In 1938, Dennis replaced its multiplicity of of small buses for lightly trafficked routes – Dart, Pike, Arrow Minor, Ace and Mace – with one model, the Falcon. This was offered with normal or forward control, the engine options being Dennis 3.77 side valve petrol, or Gardner 4LK or Perkins P6 diesel. In 1938 Southdown took over the Worthing Tramocar business and began replacing the original Shelvoke and Drewry Freighters, at first with new Freighters. More about the Tramocar business may be found on OBP here:- //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=19218 In April/May 1939 Southdown moved towards conventional buses for the Tramocar services, and purchased FUF 180/1, fleet nos. 80/1, two forward control Dennis Falcon P4s with Harrington B30C bodies offering easy access to the elderly clientele of Worthing. A third similar chassis, JUF 82, no. 82, but with Dennis B30R bodywork, arrived later that year in December after war had broken out, by which time only about 50 Falcons in total had been been produced by Dennis. In 1949 Southdown again turned to the lightweight Falcon P4, buying a further nine with Dennis B30R bodies, JUF 83-91 with matching fleet nos., for its service between Havant and Hayling Island which crossed a frail, elderly wooden bridge over the Langstone Channel built in 1824, on which a toll applied. Even then the bus went over tentatively and unladen, the passengers having to alight and walk across to rejoin it on the far side. The two ex Tramocar Falcons were transferred to the Hayling Island service to complement the ten later arrivals. The Langstone Bridge was replaced by a new structure in 1956, but the crossing toll remained until 1960. None of the Dennis bodied Falcons seems to have survived, but Harrington bodied FUF 181 of 1939 was once extant on the preservation scene. It is seen above at Brighton on the HCVC Rally in May 1970. Currently it is recorded as undergoing further restorative work. The prominent starting handles on all the Southdown Falcons suggests that they were powered by the robust 3.77 litre side valve petrol engine rather than the Gardner 4LK, but confirmation would be welcome.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
13/11/21 – 06:24
Hello Roger, I have just checked in Colin Druce’s excellent book ‘Southdown in Austerity’, and he confirms that these buses were indeed fitted with the Dennis 3.77 litre side valve petrol engine.
Roy Nicholson
01/03/22 – 06:47
I read with interest the notes on the captioned. I had been looking for any information regarding its present state, to date, to no avail. However despite my not being fully computer literate I managed to get the following, it is/was with Seaford & District who I understand have been taken over by 7 Sisters Bus & Coach whatever they might be in 01-2021. On the Seaford web site under Vintage Bus there is a Flickr Photopool, under Group Pool, Paul Goldsmith there is a shot of said bus, headed DCS_0105, dated 08/2017. It looks to be a VERY comprehensive works in progress, to say the least!. I should add that I have several times in the past sent E-mails to S&D regarding this vehicle but on no occasion did I get any reply, customer service?.
Aldershot & District 1950 Dennis Dominant Strachans B41C
The Dominant represented the initial attempt by Dennis to offer an underfloor engined single deck chassis. Like the contemporary Regal IV, Royal Tiger, Freeline and Arab UF models, the Dominant was a heavy beast, but, unlike those competitors, it never achieved quantity production. The engine was a horizontal version of the advanced 24 valve wet liner O6 diesel of 7.58 litres coupled to the Hobbs semi automatic gearbox, which used disc clutches instead of annular brake bands to engage the gears. A two speed axle was also specified. The middle section of the chassis was ‘humped’ slightly to clear the engine and gearbox, which made the design rather more difficult to body than its competitors. Only three Dominants were made, and all were shown at the 1950 Commercial Motor Show. One was displayed in left hand drive chassis form, but it is believed never to have run under its own power. The other two received Strachans bus bodies of very different character. The bus in the demonstration park had a supercharged (not turbocharged) engine, raising power from 100bhp to 130 bhp, and full air braking, and had a front entrance bus body, probably with 41 seats, of conventional appearance. The other, vacuum braked Dominant became very well known as Aldershot & District No.174, HOU 900, and its B41C body was an example of the uncertain approach to styling adopted by a number of coach builders in the early years of the underfloor engined chassis. The initial strange wing pattern was subsequently simplified to a more usual style by A&D as seen in the picture above. The Hobbs transmission revealed early weaknesses, and it was replaced in both running Dominants by standard Dennis two plate clutches and five speed gearboxes. The demonstrator was sold to Trimdon Motor Services who registered it MUP 297 and ran it, now without the supercharger, for seven years, before selling it on to become a mobile shop. The other Dominant remained in the Aldershot & District fleet from 1951 for fourteen years, spending much of that time ploughing its way on the Aldershot – Cove group of services. It is seen here in 1961 leaving Aldershot Bus Station with Weymann L25/26R rebodied Guy Arab I of 1943 No.873, EHO 695 alongside. This Arab was one of a number of such chassis originally destined for, but ultimately not wanted by London Transport. It was initially fitted for A&D service with a Strachans L22/26R body, rebodied in 1950, and finally withdrawn in 1962.
Thank you for posting this view. It has settled a problem I’ve had for some years, in respect of my “bought” slides. Not all photographs come with an indication of where (and/or when) they were taken. I have several where this building features in the background. Clearly, it was in A&D or AV territory, but the precise location was a mystery until now!
Pete Davies
20/01/13 – 14:11
Thanks for the links Roger. The original wing embellishments were rather odd – those sort of things did not really belong on coaches of the new underfloor-engined era, but the front one being the ‘wrong way round’ was plain silly. Many coachbuilders and operators of the time must have been really confused as to what to do with this new layout of vehicle. However once A&D had modified it in the fashion depicted on this photo I think it looked rather nice, with its gently curved lower windscreen line just taking the edge of any tendency to boxiness. The A&D livery of the period was just superb and enhanced any vehicle. The Arab looks really fine too. Weymann bodies looked great on any type of chassis. Many operators who rebodied their utilities after the war also converted them to the low-bonnetted Arab III layout, but I always felt – purely from an enthusiast/aesthetic perspective – that the Arab II’s original tall bonnet looked far more balanced, and in keeping with its rugged, no-nonsense nature.
John Stringer
20/01/13 – 14:51
The bus station at Aldershot was opened in August 1933, and I believe that it was the only company owned bus station within the BET group. Sadly, it has now gone. The site is now occupied by residential development, and the replacement bus station is an austere affair near the railway station entrance.
Roger Cox
20/01/13 – 15:31
Omnibus Stations Ltd, a company jointly owned by North Western and Ribble owned Lower Mosley St Bus Station Manchester, also long gone.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/01/13 – 16:26
The Wilts and Dorset bus station in Endless Street, Salisbury is up for sale. When it is gone all the services using it will be decanted onto the surrounding streets to join the local services in an already congested City centre. Is this progress? No,it’s called asset stripping. Sorry to go off topic. I’m a great Dennis fan and on a sunny summer afternoon I sometimes cut my grass with my 1960’s Dennis lawnmower.
Paragon
20/01/13 – 17:56
I know it’s off topic, unless the lawnmowers were scale model prototypes for buses, dustcarts or fire appliances, but I’d no idea they were still being made as recently as the 60’s. I saw one at Amberley on one occasion, several years ago. To be fair, Paragon, I visit Salisbury every couple of months or so, to exercise my “dodders’ pass”. Salisbury Bus Station is in dire need of fairly extensive refurbishment, at least. Is it purely asset stripping, or is it another of those odd instances where the site is sold and then leased back? Is the aim to clog Blue Boar Row, Endless Street and New Canal even more than they are already as a permanent feature, so even more shoppers will be discouraged from visiting, and go out of town or use mail order/internet shopping instead? You’re right. It is NOT progress!
Pete Davies
21/01/13 – 06:12
………with supercharger, no doubt, Paragon!
Chris Hebbron
21/01/13 – 06:13
Paragon, Is it a petrol mower?
21/01/13 – 06:14
Pete, the Dennis lawnmower business was sold off by Hestair, which also disposed of the Mercury truck business. However, Dennis lawnmowers are still made, albeit by the Derby firm of Howardson. See //www.dennisuk.com/history/
Roger Cox
21/01/13 – 06:16
With reference to Roger’s comment (20/01) about BET-owned bus stations . . . how about: Cleckheaton, Dewsbury, Batley – YWD (or corporation?; Newcastle Worswick Street, Northern; Scarborough Westwood, and Bridlington, EYMS; Skelhorne Street (Liverpool) and Carlisle, Ribble; Ammanford, James; Haverfordwest, Western Welsh; and this is now getting too far south for clear recollection – didn’t Southdown own a bus station at either Lewes or Uckfield? (one of the few instances of Southdown using their own premises – on the grounds that they’d already paid road tax to use the public roads, so why pay again to provide their own terminal facilities off-road). And then again what is a bus station – didn’t BMMO use its Stourbridge garage as a “bus station” of sorts?
Philip Rushworth
Oops, I forgot! Didn’t M&D own two bus stations in Maidstone until the early ’70s?
21/01/13 – 06:18
As has been mentioned, body builders weren’t quite sure what to do with the new-fangled underfloor-engined chassis. A few builders seem to have noticed that, unlike half cabs where the front and rear were very different, it was possible here to build in features which emphasised the symmetry of the new shape. A flat side view of this Dominant in its original form would show this symmetry in the ‘wings’, and perhaps something similar was attempted in the mouldings above, but they didn’t quite have the nerve to carry it through. The whole idea was, of course, a big mistake, because a bus/coach is not a static object but something that moves FORWARD!
Peter Williamson
21/01/13 – 14:25
The BET Group North Western Road Car Co also owned many of its bus stations – Macclesfield, Oldham, Altrincham, and Northwich for sure. This was fairly common practice among area agreement companies of any size. More interesting perhaps (to me at least!) are the independent operators who had their own bus stations – Birch Brothers’ Rushden facility springs to mind along with Blair & Palmer’s East Tower Street premises in Carlisle.
Neville Mercer
21/01/13 – 14:26
Yes it is a petrol mower. The engine was made by another great British engineering company now long gone, Villiers of Wolverhampton. I use a modern Dennis on our bowling green, superb quality but unfortunately powered by a trouble-free Japanese engine, just like my car. Where did we go wrong? No. Don’t lets get started on that.
Paragon
22/01/13 – 06:52
Villiers was a long established company in small engines for motor-cycles and lawnmowers. In the early 1980s, they produced a 2-stroke engine for lawnmowers with Mountfields. Unfortunately, this was a disaster and led to the demise of the company.
Jim Hepburn
22/01/13 – 11:07
Mention of Villiers reminds me of a Fanny Barnett motorbike I had, briefly, in the 1950’s. It was a distress purchase from a friend, when my trusty Ariel broke down, and was soon sold on. A similar distress purchase was a Wartburg, also briefly owned. I was not a lover of two-strokes, although, of course, I exclude the Commer TS3 engine!
Chris Hebbron
22/01/13 – 12:26
Chris, my dad and I drove a 1967 Wartburg Knight from Stockport to Rome and back in the summer of 1967 with my mum and two sisters. Fuelling was a two stage process which we thought might cause problems once we left French and German speaking countries. The first fuel stop in Italy at Aosta we were approached by a typically dressed Italian widow, all in black. I handed her a note in Italian stating what we needed. Her reply was “Awight Duck, nah problem I’ll get ma son ta fill y’ap all cushty”. Turns out that, though she was Italian, she’d lived in London from 1920 to 1965. The Wartburg was faultless, its 998cc engine tackling Alpine passes with 5 adults on board as brilliantly as it managed the autobahns and the Autostrada del Sole.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/01/13 – 14:11
I know others who share the positive view of the old Wartburg. I also know people who swore by – not at – their Comecon Skodas. As a dyed in the wool VW person (from Beetle onward) I am a very happy modern Skoda (VW in sheeps clothing) owner – despite recent comments by Phil. Just bought a new one at the weekend – so haven’t worn it out yet!
David Oldfield
22/01/13 – 17:04
Wife had a fourth hand Comecon Skoda in the late 1970s. Rubbish body ended up 50 shades of mustard but the engine and transmission were fantastic as, I’m told, were their PSVs which I have ridden on from time to time over the last 40 odd years. BTW my latest Skoda troubles with the bonnet lock follow on from a leaking water pump and damaged timing belt at 38,000 miles. Have had partial compensation from Skoda but they are hardly my favourite people at present.
Phil Blinkhorn
23/01/13 – 15:49
There was a lot of snobbery about Comecon products fostered by the likes of Clarkson and Co. who rarely have to pay for their motoring. Saab won the Monte Carlo Rally using a 3 cylinder 2 stroke engine just like the Wartburg. My daughter had a Comecon Skoda for a couple of years. I had to replace the water pump but other than that it was totally reliable. She then wanted a more fashionable Seat-disaster. For nearly 40 years I have ridden East German MZ motorcycles, I’m on my second one now. Practical, easy to maintain – just like we used to make in this country.
Paragon
06/03/13 – 06:57
A slightly late comment on Roger’s excellent article and the mention of the “hump” in the chassis rails – which was actually on the nearside only, over the engine and certainly no higher than the raised sections over front and rear axle. The contemporary press were most unforgiving and scathing with their comments about the uneven surface. Strangely, other manufacturers with even worse “humps” escaped such criticism. I have always thought that quite possibly the press were encouraged by the likes of AEC and Leyland who were marketing their chassis (Regal IV, Royal Tiger) with the expectation that the provided outriggers would be used as pick up points for the vertical body frames and floor. The truth was of course that many body builders simply ignored the top level of the chassis and used substantial cross bearers as a foundation for floor and body where required. Certainly though, this issue pointed the way to the later dead flat chassis on Reliance, Tiger Cub and Lancet UF, to name but three.
Nick Webster
06/03/13 – 16:44
Thanks for your very informative comment, Nick. I am sure that you are right in your suspicions that the ‘big two’ massaged the publicity machine of the commercial press to wound the sales of the Dominant. During WW2, notwithstanding the supreme peril of the nation, Rolls Royce, with its eye on post war dominance, tried every trick to get the Napier Sabre aero engine cancelled, and much of the unbalanced criticism of that engine that still holds sway today derives from that campaign. Dennis engineering was of a high order, but the trouble with the Dominant (and the later Lancet UF) was the dependence upon the old ‘O’ type gearbox once the Hobbs transmission had proved to be unreliable. That gearbox, with its sliding mesh engagement for indirect gears, and the preselective overdrive that required familiarity for successful operation, together with the wrong way round ‘right to left’ gate, required some skill in use when located halfway along the length of an underfloor engined chassis. If Dennis had equipped the Lancet UF from the outset with a straightforward constant mesh five speed gearbox as it did with the Loline, then the sales might well have been more of a challenge to AEC and Leyland.
Roger Cox
06/03/13 – 18:13
Roger, without wanting to drift too far off topic, there may well be truth in what you say about Rolls Royce but there is no doubt that the 24 cylinder H block Sabre suffered from complexity and poor quality control from the start which, had it emerged through a time of peace would have been solved. In time of war where reliability was all,it was too unreliable compared to the less powerful Merlin and probably too complex for the Erks to deal with as the war moved swiftly forward through Europe with minimal facilities at the forward bases where the Typhoons and Tempests found themselves in the ground attack role, the Sabre, for all its power being uncompetitive in dog fights above 21,000 feet. Post war there was little for the Sabre to power as air forces turned to jet and turboprop power.
Phil Blinkhorn
08/03/13 – 07:30
Phil, the legend of the Sabre’s ‘unreliability’ dies hard. The most convincing and clearly documented assessment of this engine may be found in the book “The Power to Fly” by the extraordinary author LJK Setright. This site, as you rightly point out, is not the forum for aero engine debates, but the facts about this remarkable engine show the traditional, Derby briefed view to be highly jaundiced. To quote Setright: “..when properly maintained instead of being criminally bodged (a reference to the widespread practice of tampering with the automatic boost control by mechanics at several airfields to achieve even higher outputs and thus airspeeds) it was exemplary in its reliability”. Production of Typhoons totalled 3300, and that of Tempest V/VIs reached 942. Engine production would have well exceeded the 4242 airframe total. Those figures could not have been achieved by an untrustworthy piece of engineering. It’s high time that the Derby manipulated Sabre legend was despatched once and for all. Meanwhile, back at OBP…..
Roger Cox
31/10/20 – 06:36
A completely non-technical post, but it adds to the history of this bus. My father was a conductor with the Aldershot & District Traction Co (the Traco) during the 50s. I’ve been transcribing his diaries and came across an entry for Monday 26th Jan 1953. “Dominant” bus was hit along Hawley Lane. Back panel ripped half off by M.O.S. lorry. Was on it at the time. I assume M.O.S. was Ministry of Supply. He didn’t actually say he was the conductor, but I can’t think why he would have been just a passenger.
So far as I am aware, Entwhistle & Sons of Morecambe, trading as Prince of Wales tours, only ever had two vehicles. I offered a view of ETC 760B a while ago. Here are two views of their first, a 1933 Dennis Dart with Duple C20R body, with door. After thirty years of regular service, it was retired – ETC 760B being the replacement – and it has now returned to its birthplace, Guildford. It is now in the care of Alexander Dennis and we see it at Wisley on 5 April 2009. Quite why it has a White Heather illuminated rear panel I do not know. It carried it in her normal working life, too!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
13/10/16 – 15:30
Sorry, Pete, I think you’ve got one or two things wrong, there. TJ 836 was new to Entwistle (no ‘h’) of Morecambe, but later operated for Jardine (t/a ‘White Heather’) also of Morecambe. I would imagine that the transfer took place in 1949/50 since that is the year in which Entwistle took delivery of a new Pearson-bodied Bedford OB – the registration was something like LTD 986, although that possibly isn’t quite right. It was this OB which was in turn replaced by ETC 760B in 1964. ‘LTD 986’ went for further service with Hay, of Kintore, Aberdeenshire. Frank Entwistle died in the late 1970s (I think) and ETC 760B passed to the partnership of Gerry Lamb and Neville Lacey (of Morecambe) who were already operating a coach of their own (a Bedford VAM, I think), under the name ‘Regent Travel’. IIRC correctly ETC 760B continued to be operated under the name ‘Prince of Wales’ for several years. ‘White Heather’ ceased operation when Mr Jardine died (I think this was the late 1950s). TJ 836 was sold shortly afterwards, but still stored in the Jardine depot at this time was TE 8318, a Chevrolet new to Jardine in 1929. I have read (on a Flickr caption) that TE 8318 and TJ 836 were operated by Jardine concurrently, but I didn’t think that that had been the case, although I don’t know for sure. In addition to TJ 836, TE 8318 and ETC 760B are, I think, still preserved. There is a nice shot of TJ 836 in service with Jardine on Flickr.
David Call
13/10/16 – 15:31
Can anyone explain, please, what the chimney-like protuberance is, at the nearside rear corner of the roof, above the fold-down steps? Such steps would normally lead to a roof-mounted luggage carrier of some sort (as found on, say, 50s Royal Blue coaches), but I can’t see any way you could keep luggage in place on this one.
Graham Woods
14/10/16 – 05:15
David, You are indeed correct as regards the spelling with or without the ‘H’. My schooldays were spent in Lancaster and Morecambe and I distinctly remember TJ running in the livery shown in the early 1960’s, and then ETC. I have no recollection of the OB. The Chevrolet has appeared on these pages in the past it can been here. I didn’t know that TJ had been with Jardine.
Pete Davies
14/10/16 – 05:16
With regards to the luggage rack, I think this would have been a recess in the roof with a waterproof cover that could be pulled back over the luggage (see attached pic) where you can see the cover rolled up on roof. I think the roof has since been panelled over. I don’t know what the square ‘chimney’ protrusion is, being in line with the steps it must have got in the way of the driver when putting cases up on roof. One thought would it have been a vent of some sort?
John Wakefield
14/10/16 – 05:17
It’s the smoke outlet from the boiler Graham. The fireman’s door is just next to it. The coal is stored just next to the number plate. The luggage locker is at the front.
Joe
14/10/16 – 08:47
Nearly right, Joe, the vehicle was actually powered by peat! That’s a lovely photo, John W, which made me wonder if the roofbox had a winding handle inside for the luggage cover, perhaps.
Chris Hebbron
13/12/16 – 14:10
Frank Entwistle was my second cousin and his father, Harry, my great uncle. TJ 836 originally had a roof box for luggage, see attached photo. The coach which followed the Dart was indeed a Pearson-bodied Bedford OB reg LTD 986. There were previous coaches to TJ 836 and before them horse-drawn Landaus.
Dave Shaw
13/12/16 – 14:10
The Bedford OB which followed the Dart was LTD 986, as shown in the attached photo.
Dave Shaw
10/02/17 – 06:53
If you look at You Tube – Coach Travel in the Fifties www.youtube.com/watch I think that you see a few frames of this bus, or one looking like it running right to left across the picture at about 19mins and 56secs in.
Roland Harmer
15/10/18 – 07:28
In this picture, taken at South Croydon in May 1972, the folding roof was still fitted.
Few of us realise just how major the task of bus preservation can be in terms of effort and expense. Back in the late 1960s I was a member of a group that bought 1934 ex Southern National Dennis Ace YD 9533 with Dennis B20F body, which had by then suffered the indignity of serving as a mobile fish and chip shop. The work and costs became increasingly prohibitive, even for this small vehicle, and, as Brian Lunn with his South Yorkshire Titan also discovered, those prepared to roll up their sleeves for hard graft became conspicuous by their absence. Ultimately, we sold YD 9533 to another owner, and, happily, this delightful little vehicle is now a regular on the rally scene in superbly restored condition. Here it is, as it was when bought in 1969, on the forecourt of Reigate LT (CB&C) garage, alongside face lifted Green Line RF 61, LYF 412.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
22/06/12 – 07:06
Roger, did you take this bus on the HCVC London Brighton run about 1970? I used to go every year with Geoff Lumb and his 1938 Llandudno Guy Wolf JC5313 and one year we were parked next to a Dennis Ace. All I can remember is that I think it was painted all over white and had large pieces of plastic sticky tape over a rust hole on the rear offside corner. Or am I thinking of something else? It comes to my mind, as I type this posting, that perhaps it was a forward control half cab version of the Ace. (Mace perhaps)? If this isn’t going too far off topic (grin), can anybody confirm what is a fading file in my “memory banks”?
Eric Bawden
22/06/12 – 07:07
Perhaps a little more refined and not so open to the elements, but this Dennis seems to have a bit of a French influence about it, i.e. the driver is behind the engine but the wheels are set back from the front, not exactly the norm for UK vehicles
Ronnie Hoye
22/06/12 – 11:19
I think the idea was to shorten the wheelbase as much as possible to make them more manoeuvrable in tight country lanes. The Ace was as a result absolutely ideal for these situations. The set back front axle on commercial vehicles was quite the fashion in Britain for a while in the 1930’s, even heavyweights like AEC, Leyland and Albion joining in. Often almost the entire bonnet was ahead of the front axle, protruding like a long snout and looking really odd. Then the reason was to provide better engine accessibility and removal/installation, but it was short lived, though Dennis persisted with the idea well into the postwar period on the Pax model (of which I seem to recall Jersey Motor Transport had a few as buses). But that’s another topic really.
John Stringer
22/06/12 – 11:20
I wasn’t at the event, but this sounds like the Dennis Mace that returned to the UK for preservation after service with Joe’s Bus Service on Jersey. Memory is failing me here, and I can’t find a published source, but I think that it was a former ENOC machine and ended up being scrapped after the restoration task proved to be too much for amateur enthusiasts to handle. Another loss of a significant asset while hundreds of thousands of pounds are lavished on scores of identical London Transport types. Even for the pleasanter LT types such as the RT and the GS (yes, I hate Routemasters!) their ridiculous over-representation in the ranks of preserved vehicles is little short of a self-indulgent disgrace. Are there any Maces left??
Neville Mercer
22/06/12 – 15:08
That does make sense, John, on the subject of manoeuvrability on narrow roads, some years ago I seem to remember reading an article somewhere about some second hand buses being sold to an operator on the Channel Islands, but before he could use them they had to be split lengthways and made narrower, can anyone confirm if that’s right, or is my memory playing tricks?
Ronnie Hoye
22/06/12 – 15:08
There is a photo of a preserved Southern National Mace BTA 59, taken in 2007, at this site: //www.bus-and-coach-photos.com
John Stringer
23/06/12 – 05:41
Ronnie, I seem to remember reading the same report, but I can’t quote chapter and verse on it.
YD 9533 appears in the new PSV Circle listing of preserved buses.
Pete Davies
23/06/12 – 05:44
Eric, whilst the Ace was in our care, it was never repainted, so I think that Neville has hit upon the answer. Dennis specialised to some degree in small buses for one person operation (formerly known as OMO) during the twenties and thirties, introducing a bewildering array of models – G, GL, Dart, Ace, Mace, Pike, Arrow Minor, and (ultimately) Falcon, which superseded all the earlier designs and re-emerged post war. John is right about the reason for the set back front axle on the Ace/Mace, but this feature did not appear on the other small Dennis buses, though it did on the post war Pax goods model, a few of which were bodied as buses. Post war the maximum capacity for an OMO vehicle was raised from 20 to 26 seats, but, with the eventual legalisation of OMO operation on standard sized single deckers, the market for small buses withered away, and with it the Falcon. The standard power train for the “Flying Pig” Ace was the 3.77 litre side valve petrol engine coupled with a four speed gearbox, which, in usual Dennis style for the period, worked upwards from right to left. To further increase the fun, the Ace had a centre accelerator. A very few Aces were fitted with the early Perkins “Wolf” diesel, and it was also offered with a Dorman diesel option. I am glad that I played a small part in saving this little gem for posterity. Today it is immaculate:-
Roger Cox
23/06/12 – 05:45
I think that the vehicles Ronnie Hoye refers to were a number of Bristol LH’s which came from Western National or associated fleets. As they started out as 8ft wide they were indeed split down the centre and reduced to 7ft 6in width, I think in fact they went to Guernsey.
Diesel Dave
PS. The LH’s I commented about were in fact fitted with Plaxton Elite coach bodies.
23/06/12 – 05:47
Ronnie, I too seem to have a hint of this long ago, and Guernsey springs to mind – or what’s left of the old mind !!
Chris Youhill
23/06/12 – 05:48
Following on from Neville’s question, Eric B’s memories and John S’s link, I seem to recall that this Mace was rescued from its life as a caravan, painted white. I believe it’s the only survivor. From some front angles, the Mace looked decidedly odd, with the radiator seemingly off-centre, which I’m sure it wasn’t. However, I do recall two wartime RAF Dennis military lorries, mouldering with snow ploughs on their fronts, having their metal grill radiator covers definitely off-centre. There was also Dennis military lorry, with a snout like the post-war Falcon, seen here: //miliblog.co.uk/?cat=441
Chris Hebbron
23/06/12 – 05:50
This photograph shows BTA 59 as it looked about 1970 so you can see if it rings any bells. It’s fair to say it looks a lot better now, although I haven’t seen it in the flesh! If I can dig out my early rally programmes I’ll see if I can confirm whether it was likely to be this or another one.
David Beilby
23/06/12 – 10:17
David B, your photo of BTA 59 almost certainly confirms in my memory that this was the one we were parked next to in Brighton around 1970
Eric Bawden
23/06/12 – 14:26
Whilst I agree with Neville that there seems to be a disproportioned number of RM’s and RML’s in preservation, that’s hardly surprising ‘with the possible exception of some Bristol/ECW’s’ that particular chassis/body combination was probably built in far greater numbers than any other half cab, it should also be remembered that by the time the Routemaster was finally withdrawn from service half cabs of any type had become a distant memory in most area’s, consequently you have a whole generation of youngsters living outside London who’ve never been close to a half cab, much less ridden on one. We can all think of examples of things that were once produced in vast numbers that we just took for granted and sadly no longer exist, that’s why places such as Beamish in this area, Crich, Sandtoft, Beaulieu and many others too numerous to mention, should all be looked upon as educational assets rather than curiosities. I apologise if that seemed to be a bit like a sermon rather than a comment.
Ronnie Hoye
23/06/12 – 21:14
Yes, well Ronnie, I’m glad you made that point. I’m a fan of Neville but I’m also a big fan of the RM – having driven many and regularly still driving a preserved RML. I do have to agree with Neville, in one sense. I am actually more of a coach fan and lament the fact the are not half so many preserved coaches as buses. I am, however, painfully aware why. Until recently, composite construction was the norm and many have/had frames that had rotted away. Because of the minority interest, not so many people are/were willing to put in the painstaking work that has gone into so many superb bus restorations. I always felt, as a kid, that the standard of build and finish of LT buses was above the norm – cf 1966 RM/RMLs and Sheffield Park Royal bodies could have come from totally different origins, so different was the finish. Add to that, as Ronnie says, the size of the gene pool and it is quite understandable, if regrettable, that there are so many LT vehicles in preservation.
David Oldfield
23/06/12 – 21:16
Chris H, the Dennis Lancet II and III, and the utility Max lorry, all had the radiator slightly offset to the nearside. The slightly eccentric appearance of the forward control Ace, and the slightly heavier Mace that superseded it, is an optical trick that results from the effect of the standard normal control radiator that marries up rather incongruously with the front dash panel. The forward control Falcon has a similar odd appearance. Stepping (cautiously) off subject on the question of preserved London buses, Ronnie has hit upon a matter that continues to influence certain opinions today. Many times I have come across the view that the Routemaster was “the best bus ever built”. In part, this (almost exclusively Metropolitan) opinion derives from the fact that, as Ronnie points out, the RM was for many years the sole representative of the half cab double decker, and was thus, in the eyes of many, a unique type of vehicle. Those holding this view have no knowledge of Titans, Regents, Arabs, Lodekkas et al. To my mind, the RM was simply a competent half cab that was designed to be dismantled like Meccano to suit the Aldenham overhaul system. The London Routemasters were rebuilt regularly to achieve their long service lives. The Northern General RMFs, which were notably purchased to match the passenger acceptance standards of the United Lodekkas, and which did not receive the expensive cosseting from Aldenham, achieved a service life of some 15 years, consistent with other types of half cabs.
Roger Cox
24/06/12 – 05:20
I don’t begrudge the preservation of any number of the RM family. Obviously it was the last of the half-cab breed and was therefore eminently worthy of all the preservation efforts that have taken place. I only regret that we didn’t all wake up a bit earlier and preserve some other stuff too – vehicles that were perhaps more nationally representative, rather than almost exclusively London. Having said that, I remain amazed and delighted at the number and variety of buses that do survive.
Stephen Ford
24/06/12 – 11:01
My real concern – and one that makes me a bit unenthusiastic and despondent about the bus preservation movement generally nowadays – is who is going to keep on preserving them all in future years? It seems to me that with only a few exceptions, Bus Enthusiasts are a disappearing breed. It was a generation thing, most that I have ever known were born between the 1930’s and the 1950’s and those who are still around are, let’s face it, getting on a bit. We have often beeg seen by others as maybe a bit oddball, but we were tolerated. Later generations increasingly see the transport enthusiast – whether bus, train or plane – as ‘sad’, definitely having something wrong with them and probably in need of treatment. Just try pointing a camera at a bus nowadays in any public place and note the looks and hear the rude comments I used to feel a great sense of relief when I read in ‘Buses’ or the PSV Circle newsheets that a bus had been secured for preservation. One somehow imagined naively that its future was automatically assured for ever more. Lots of vehicles have had many years of hard work and tremendous expense lavished on them, but will there be similar dedicated people in the future to keep up to them? People who are too young to remember them running. The thing about ‘our’ generation of enthusiast was I believe that although they obviously revered the buses of their youth first and foremost, they had a broad interest in the periods before and after also. The younger enthusiasts that do exist tend, as with most other aspects of life, only to be interested in things that they can ‘relate’ to, and shun everything else. (A bit of a rant starting now – another generation thing – I’d better stop !)
John Stringer
25/06/12 – 07:43
Not a rant: a very sound point, well made. Only this afternoon, I went to the Stroud RE Meet and Running Day and pondered the average age of the men (and some wives) who populated the event, not to mention the rides. And like those who keep old rail locos/aircraft going, their ‘intimate’ skills with their charges are dying off, as they do. Most of the children were children/grandchildren up to about twelve. And, unlike cars and the like, the ‘charges’ are big beasts not easily accommodated under cover and ever subject to constantly encroaching ‘elf’ & safety demands. And even museums are having problems, like the RAF one and other military ones, where the younger generation don’t have that connexion with WWI or WWII and have not served in the Forces as National Service and have an affinity. True, road transport museums/meets are working ones, which keeps more of an interest going with youngsters, but will not make them give of their time, the vital ingredient.
Chris Hebbron
25/06/12 – 07:43
John. Rant? Generation thing? Yes of course, but sadly you make very pertinent points.
David Oldfield
25/06/12 – 07:44
John, I can relate to everything you say, I’m in complete agreement. It’s a bit like many of the bus pioneers who were young at the time of the 1930 Transport Act, when their businesses became firmly established. When the 1970’s arrived, many of them simply wanted to retire and many didn’t have anyone to pass the business on to. The majority of vehicles in preservation today are owned by and restored by people who remember them, travelled on them, drove them, but who will they be passed on to? As you say, the younger enthusiasts will have no knowledge, memories or experience of such vehicles so will they be able to relate to them at all. When I visit rallies now, it’s wonderful to be able to travel on vehicles I remember as a lad, but will future generations have the same enthusiasm for something which will mean nothing to them. It will be a sad day when no one appreciates anymore, that we used to make lovely buses in Britain! Oh dear, I didn’t set out to spread gloom and despondency!
Chris Barker
25/06/12 – 17:02
Gentlemen..you have all said exactly what I have feared in recent times. Young people will never relate to “old things” except via a computer screen. Here in Bristol we have the recently opened “M Shed” which is an original dockside warehouse that has housed museum exhibits, mainly transport based for many years. It was old, dusty, atmospheric and filled with the aroma of the dockside steam railway which still runs, old oil and the originality of the building and it’s long past. Then came the decision to “restore it” using Lottery money and after a staggering £27 million pounds was splurged it opened with much noise and showmanship. However, it is now a big set of cardboard display cards, a few cleaned exhibits and a host of LCD information screens. It looks like something constructed by infant school teachers and set up in a shopping Mall. Filled with holidaying, screaming children and “yummy mummy’s” because entrance is free, the place is nothing like it was as regards history just a theme park…and in the middle is a rather tired Bristol Lodekka that was still running but now ensconced in a cardboard display jungle. It made me heart sink to hear someone telling a group of barely interested children..”It’s an old bus that really old people used to ride on..i’ts like a London bus but green like you see in pictures”..they then moved on. I do hope that there will be better places and many transport museum are wonderful but the message of what the exhibits meant, how and where they were made, who used them, what they are like to ride on and why they feel different must be passed on in some way. Sadly with modern Health & Safety and litigation fears, few children have ever picked up a hammer, nails, spanner, painted anything or been involved in manual work. We old grey hairs grew up in a different world and now tap these keys as a new skill but 10 year old Johnny will only seek a museum full of I-pods in 2060 and a surviving Lodekka will be of very little interest as it sits dust covered and seized. I don’t have any family but if you do..spread the word to them AND to their friends..please.
Richard Leaman
26/06/12 – 06:33
About four years ago, I took my grandson to the Natural History Museum in West Ken., to see dinosaurs, which was quite good, mainly through the moving, realistic, models. After, I suggested we went to the adjacent Science Museum, where I’d gone as a child – all sorts of things for boys and model locomotives and other things in glass cases with handles you could turn to see how they worked. About ten years ago, it was still quite good with an excellent ‘steam’ section, both reciprocating and turbine engines doing their stuff, amongst other things. At this last visit, it was as Richard said, all trendy stuff, dark lighting and shallow content. The car section comprised five cars on shelves above each other, that gave you neck strain to survey. Most kids just flitted and my g’son was very disappointed, after my bigging it up! All very sad. I’m waiting for the British Museum to update, with floating fossils and artefacts, amid flashing lasers and fireworks! That’ll grab their attention and educate them!
Chris Hebbron
29/06/12 – 11:23
I have an undated press cutting showing YD 9533 in Southern National livery at the Bristol Bus Rally. Standing with it is Mr Bernard Davies the Assistant Commercial Manager of LCBS who is described as a part owner. Does this add to the history of the vehicle?
Paragon
29/06/12 – 17:10
All may not be lost my 24 year old daughter is a keen observer of the transport scene often texting me with the latest nonsense by our local operator. She also enjoys riding on old vehicles especially the Crich trams indeed she even follows the tramway blog! She also is happy to photograph interesting vehicles for me on her phone.
Chris Hough
30/06/12 – 05:25
In response to Paragon, Bernard Davis (no”e”) was one of the group, of which I was another, that saved the Ace in the state as shown. He and I were the only two that put any real work into restoration before it was sold on.
Roger Cox
24/09/12 – 17:33
Pleased to say that there is another ‘Ace’ alive, if not well at present. Ex ECOC/Bickers Ace CAH 923/ECW B20F is in the Ipswich Transport Museum – and started the collection in 1965. Re-restoration has recently commenced with a view to getting the bus on the road for 2015 – its 50th year in preservation…….. Some parts have gone missing over the years and any info on bits and pieces welcome.
Eric Mouser
25/09/12 – 07:07
What Eric Mouser omitted to say in his comment was that the pioneering preservationist who acquired CAH 923 from Bickers of Coddenham in 1965 was a Mr. E. Mouser. I’m sure we all look forward to seeing it on the road in 2015 whether in Bickers green or Eastern Counties red.
Nigel Turrner
25/05/14 – 11:08
The sale and cannibilisation of these buses didn’t finish with their journey to the ECOC graveyard of Ben Jordan, Coltishall. A. C. Bickers of Coddenham, Suffolk bought 5 of the remnants and the complete wooden framework of what would have been D20, DVF 520, subsequently completed as a service lorry. Alfred Bickers then purchased withdrawn Dennis Ace dustcarts from Ipswich Borough Council and used the mechanicals to rebuild 4 of the Aces as petrol engined 20 strs. The later DVF XXX registered buses were about a foot longer, and were 22 strs. I first met G. C. Bickers, son of Alfred, in 1965 and bought CAH 923. The body was in poor condition, so I also acquired the body of DVF 519, which had been bought, but never used by Bickers. The body was stripped off D3 and the body of D19 re-fitted – which is when we found out the difference in body lengths! Initially the restoration went well, but then the Ipswich Transport Preservation Group had been formed, and a 1939 Leyland Cub Fire Engine, a 1914 R. S. & J battery electric truck, an Ipswich tramcar body to name but a few came onto the scene. The collection moved around various sites before becoming the Ipswich Transport Museum and many other projects took priority over the Ace. The moves and changes of personnel over the years has taken its toll on the Ace and a number of vital parts have been lost. However the 50th anniversary of the Ace in preservation is rapidly approaching and work to return the Ace to the road has begun in earnest. It will be something of a mongrel – long body, short chassis with petrol engine – but it will be painted in ECOC livery so that we can demonstrate our collection of ‘tin bibles’ PSV Circle records show pre-war livery as ‘Foochow Red and off white’ as opposed to postwar Tilling red and cream. Any info or colour pictures welcome!
Eric Mouser
27/05/14 – 06:39
In the 1960’s there was a well known motor cycle scrambler from East Anglia called Dave Bickers. Was he connected with Bickers of Coddenham?
Paragon.
28/05/14 – 07:57
Yes, Dave Bickers is a member of the eponymous Coddenham family. Dave’s exploits took place at a time when we still had a motorcycle industry, when names like Dot and Greeves were ascendant in the competitive world of motocross/scrambles. As one time Scott and Velocette owner, I find the present day offerings of the almost wholly foreign motorbike industry as mind numbingly tedious as ‘modern’ buses.
Roger Cox
28/05/14 – 07:58
Paragon. You must be as old as me! My dad took me to motorcycle scrambles in the 1960s where Dave Bickers was a leading rider. He was and is David G. Bickers of Coddenham, son of Geoffrey C. Bickers of Coddenham and grandson of Alfred C. Bickers of Coddenham.
Nigel Turner
28/05/14 – 15:59
Roger and Nigel-thanks for your replies.Yes, I am three score years and ten and more! Roger-I have owned a number of Velos over the years and still have a water cooled LE on which I purr round the Wiltshire lanes when the sun shines. When much younger I considered buying a Scott but then sanity prevailed (no offence). I am not totally against modern buses.There are some interesting developments with people like GKN and BAE endeavouring to make more efficient transmission systems. Like you modern motorcycles leave me cold.
Paragon
29/05/14 – 07:49
Among a clutch of motorbikes I owned, when young, was a post-war Velo KSS which was rather fast! It served me well on my longest ever run, from Portsmouth to Morpeth! I agree that, like so many things, character is missing so much from modern things. However, I found that girls were more attracted to cars than motorbikes and cars were more romantic!
Chris Hebbron
29/05/14 – 09:35
Chris, I had a KSS engine for some years, but never found a frame etc for it. The KSS and KTT were overhead cam machines which, as you say, were fast for the times, but notoriously difficult to keep in tune. Paragon, I envy you. The LE was a superbly engineered sophisticated machine, incredibly quiet and stable, with very good weather protection. The master at my last primary school had one, and sometimes used to run me home on the pillion seat. The Police took a large number, the “Noddy” bikes of fond memory, but Velocette never really recovered the development costs. Having burnt their fingers a bit with that, they then went on to pour funds into the Viceroy scooter, again, well in advance of anything else, but too late and too big for the market. They never got their money back. The story is a bit like Guy with the Wulfrunian, except that the Velocette machines were utterly reliable. When the Goodman family (originally Gutgemann from Germany) decided to stop making motorbikes in the early ’70s, they paid off all their creditors in full. On Chris’s final point, their was once a bus photographer who always endeavoured to include a member of the fair sex in his bus pictures, but his name now escapes me (like at lot else these days!).
Roger Cox
29/05/14 – 11:33
Roger, are you thinking of Robert Jowitt?
Eric Bawden
29/05/14 – 17:45
That’s him, Eric. He must have had rather more charisma than I ever did to entice those attractive “extras” into his bus pictures.
Roger Cox
05/07/14 – 07:17
I am using this thread as a flimsy excuse to return to a more recent one, the use of megabuses around our streets when bus use is meant to be declining- but yet they carry 50 per cent more passengers than the old 55 seaters which fitted better into the urban scene. Arriva Yorkshire (aka Deutsche Bahn) have just launched what I think are some Dennis Darts with obviously short wheelbases for presumably town use- in a new livery. One is reminded, you could say, of the principle behind Ace and Mace? It all comes around…
Joe
08/07/14 – 14:54
Further to earlier comments, I sadly have to report that Dave Bickers of Coddenham passed away on Sunday July 6th 2014 aged 76. His passing was covered in a full page spread in the East Anglian Daily Times and I believe that it also made the local television news.
The Dennis Mace refered to above appears to have been preserved. it is listed by the Dennis Society with a photo and another photo link on Google shows it at a show in 2007.
London General Omnibus Company 1925 Dennis 4 ton Dodson O26/22RO
Pictured at South Croydon on the May 1972 HCVC London – Brighton rally is Dennis 4 ton XX 9591, D142 of 1925 with the almost inevitable Dodson O26/22RO bodywork. This bus has a complicated history that is detailed on the London Bus Museum website
Although a service was run by Charles Waymann in the Waltham Abbey area from 1920 to 1926, initially using a single decker and a double decker, both of the B type, and a Straker Squire double decker, the first “Pirate” bus in central London is generally credited as being the Leyland operated by Arthur George Partridge, which took to the road on 5 August 1922 under the trading name “Chocolate Express” (though only “Express” appeared on the body sides). The vehicle was a Leyland LB1 (i.e London Bus), a straight chassis vehicle developed from the heavier standard G7 model specifically to meet the stringent Metropolitan Police design requirements. There followed a flurry of activity in 1922 as other opportunist entrepreneurs entered the fray using a great variety of vehicle makes, but the Independents’ choice of double decker manufacture soon generally settled down to that between the Leyland LB (developed as the LB2, then LB4 and finally LB5) and the equally sturdy Dennis 4 tonner. The Dennis was a straight framed haulage chassis derived from the wartime “Subvention” or “Subsidy” type, of which over 7000 were produced in various wheelbases and weights between 1914 and 1918. A few single deck Dennis buses appeared on the London scene in 1922, but, to gain proper access to the lucrative London market, Dennis sought the acceptance of the 4 tonner by the Metropolitan Police as a passenger carrying double decker. Accordingly, the bus variant of the 4 ton model was modified for London in 1923 and emerged with the following specifications:- Wheelbase extended from 15ft 6ins to 15ft 10ins Larger front wheels from 720mm to 850mm Cone clutch, four speed sliding mesh gearbox, overhead worm rear axle (contemporary LGOC buses had 3 speed chain gearboxes – it would seem that, even way back then, AEC spur gearboxes were noisy and unacceptable to the Met). Body O26/22RO CAV lighting set The first 4 tonner for London operation was reported in Commercial Motor in August 1923 as being destined for Messrs W.H. Collins and Co. trading as A1 and painted chocolate brown. The engine, described below, was supplied by the White and Poppe factory in Coventry, set up in 1899 by Alfred White and Peter Poppe (pronounced ‘Popper’ – he was a Norwegian). This company became the main supplier of engines to Dennis who went on to purchase the Coventry firm in the post war recession of 1919. ‘T’ head side valve, 4 cylinder 115mm x 150mm = 6.232 litre, 40 -50 bhp This engine, stated in the 1923 report as being the power plant of the 4 ton bus, was a widely used and successful unit, 4591 examples being made up to the Dennis takeover in 1919, and it then continued in volume production until the late 1920s. This was certainly the standard engine of the 4 ton double decker. A modified version uprated to 70 bhp was fitted to Dennis’s first bespoke bus chassis, the E type of 1925.
Now comes the conundrum. The power unit of D142 is stated on sundry preservation pages to be an example of the Type D, with a capacity of 5.8 litres yielding 36 bhp. However, the Type D engine (derived from its precursor, the Type C manufactured from 1913) is listed in Dennis drawings as:- ‘L’ head side valve, 4 cylinder 110mm x 150 mm = 5.702 litre, 44 bhp Thus the alleged engine type of D142 is not consistent with the claimed capacity. The nearest White and Poppe engine of 5.8 litres was this 4 cylinder side valve, very unusual in a time of long stroke engines in being almost “square”, and thus probably intended for private car applications:- 120mm x 130mm = 5.881 litre, 40-50 bhp, but only 209 of this engine version were made before the Dennis takeover in 1919, and it does not appear in the Dennis list of engine drawings from that date, which indicates that it was not produced later. Unless the preserved vehicle has improbably received a very rare earlier type of White and Poppe engine, which is emphatically not the alleged Type D anyway, the 5.8 litre engine description must be considered doubtful. I believe the engine in D142 to be the standard 6.232 litre unit approved by the Metropolitan Police, but comments would be welcome.
Blue Bus Services 1959 Daimler Freeline CD650H Burlingham Seagull C37F
The above photograph was given to me by the ex Blue Bus Inspector the late Ken Baker, when I worked for Derby Borough Transport, and was in charge of the Blue Bus operation at Willington, before the fire. He had no idea where it was taken, but he thought it was in the Derbyshire Peak District somewhere, where as I thought it was in Yorkshire. Perhaps somebody will be able to identify the location? 120 JRB was unusual for a 30ft – long coach in that it was only fitted with 37 seats, the usual maximum being 41. Contemporary reports state that it was fitted with translucent panelling which could be lifted for ventilation. It was also fitted with an air operated pre-selector gearbox, and it was reported that it could travel at 55mph.
This coach was the first vehicle to carry the “Wings” emblem in place of the “Blue Bus Services” fleet name. If anybody is interested I have a Blue Bus Services page on my website, which can be found at this link.
I hope someone comes up with the location of 120 JRB.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
19/12/11 – 11:06
Good picture, possibly taken in Wirksworth, Derbyshire.
Roger Broughton
19/12/11 – 14:21
You have set us a teaser as to where this is! The pale grey stone suggests that it is in the southern part of the Peak District- but where is/was there a Natwest Bank? Wirksworth doesn’t look right on Google Earth- goldish stone & brick- & has a big Natwest: this is/was a part time branch. I wondered about Youlgreave…..
Joe
19/12/11 – 17:19
Joe, Youlgeave (Pommy) hasn’t had a Natwest Bank, the stone is similar to both in fact all of the Peak District.
Roger Broughton
20/12/11 – 06:50
Well the few bits that I can add having worked for National Provincial and later National Westminster Bank are that the picture was taken after February 1971 and the size of the Branch would suggest that it was an “Agency” open one/two days per week. These were attached to and run by much larger Branches so that would seem to indicate that it is not too far from a large town or city. Oh that I had my old Sorting Code book because with a bit of work you could eliminate possibilities using Google Earth! Sadly, we always had to destroy them. I’ve just researched Pateley Bridge because the road layout at the top of the hill is similar but the Bank is Barclays and too far around the bend. So not much help but any old Yorkshire/Derbyshire Bankers out there might get closer.
Richard Leaman
20/12/11 – 06:51
A flash of inspiration suggested Bonsall. Have a look at Google maps. I think the picture was taken from an upstairs window of the Kings Head, looking down Yeoman Street. The end of the cottage in the distance is fairly distinctive.
Stephen Ford
20/12/11 – 09:29
Well done Stephen- it is indeed: Yeoman St Bonsall. The shops have been prettified into houses and the bank is no more but looks much the same. The pub car park, probably once some cottages, has been improved: in fact the whole place looks smarter. It is possible that the pic was taken from the memorial plinth, but it was probably higher. I’ll stick to my guns, though, Roger, on the stone: it was always noticeable that the stone changed going south from squarish often goldish stones to this pale grey rubbley stuff, often found around those tiny sheep fields/pens. Compare say Baslow with here.
Joe
20/12/11 – 10:21
I wonder were the coach is heading as the road out of Bonsal towards Brightgate is very narrow.
Roger Broughton
20/12/11 – 11:24
My guess would be that it was either a trip to view the well-dressings (July) or a pub visit at the end of an organised sightseeing tour. Roger is right, Bonsall was the end of the line for buses (and still is). At the time it was North Western territory with a fairly regular service from Matlock, nowadays G & J Holmes and an hourly service during the day on weekdays.
Stephen Ford
20/12/11 – 12:27
An amazing flash of inspiration, Stephen; I can’t fault it. Think of the chances that, from such a small group as us, someone would triumph! You shall have a gold star!
Chris Hebbron
20/12/11 – 14:24
O come on, Chris. There’s some shared brain power among us – and we’re probably all getting on a little bit now! Coming from the Peak District end of Sheffield, the whole PD is my (favoured) stomping ground. Now exiled in the south, Bonsall was a regular part of run out in the car I did when visiting aged (now dead) parents. I only ever went UP hill from Cromford and never had the perspective of this photo – looking down.
David Oldfield
21/12/11 – 07:21
While it’s true that there are some widely-travelled folk amongst us, it still surprises me how many questions thrown at the website are answered. I’ll compromise by awarding Stephen only a silver star, then – okay?
Chris Hebbron
21/12/11 – 07:22
I’ve played around on Streetview, and if you paste this link into your browser, you can see the scene as it is today when map loades drag and drop the little orange man to the Kings head at this Google maps link.
KC
21/12/11 – 08:56
Hy Hulley, now there’s a name from the Peak District, nearly had the variety of vehicles of Barton, some out of COF vehicles would be parked on open land opposite the garage in Baslow, now luxury flats are parked there ! The business is still operating as Hulley under the Woolicrofts ownership ex Silver Service of Darley Dale. In the 1978 Buses Annual there is a good article on Peak District operators from the 30’s.
Roger Broughton
21/12/11 – 08:57
Scrooge! I didn’t mean that Stephen didn’t deserve the Gold Star – I’ll reinstate it and take this opportunity to say Happy Christmas to ALL friends on this wonderful site.
David Oldfield
21/12/11 – 11:41
………and I’ll second that, a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year to all.
Chris Hebbron
21/12/11 – 12:03
That must have been one of the last Freelines built – also one of the last Daimler 10.6 litre engines. Wonder if Blue Bus managed to acquire a stock chassis at a knock down price for being a loyal Daimler customer? The steering wheel position in the Freeline always looks too high although presumably the drivers seat was similarly raised to achieve the required min 6″/max 10″ clearance between the top of the seat cushion and the underside of the steering wheel rim required by the Conditions of Fitness Regulations.
Ian Wild
21/12/11 – 13:50
When I said inspiration, I didn’t mean the miraculous sort (or sticking a pin in a map at random either)! I was just thinking of places I have visited that might fit, then checking them in Google. Roger mentioned Brightgate just to the north of Bonsall, and we have in fact camped in a very old static caravan at Brightgate farm a few times. Even in the prettified state that Joe referred to, Bonsall is a grey village and can look a bit dreary in anything less than brilliant sunshine. I think my inspiration was along the lines of “it looks grey enough to be Bonsall!”
Stephen Ford
21/12/11 – 14:55
Stephen, The Barley Mow on the Slaley Rd out of Bonsall is a very good watering hole which has recently changed hands, good beer and food.
Roger Broughton
22/12/11 – 06:32
It certainly wasn’t one of the last Freelines, I’m not sure when production officially ceased but Great Yarmouth took some in 1964 with ‘B’ registrations. It would have been, however, one of the very last Burlingham Seagull’s to the original design. By no means a unique combination and yes, all of them appeared to have very high steering wheel positions, what is not immediately apparent is that this one had three long panoramic windows on each side and one piece windscreens, not the horizontally divided opening type. I think Yelloway had some to this diagram also. Delivered in June 1959 only just in time for that years summer, I think that was the last season of this particular shape. If Blue Bus had waited till the following year, they could have had the Seagull 70 body, now that would have been a unique combination!
Chris Barker
22/12/11 – 06:33
With Streetview you can actually get a link for the exact view you want rather than the map. Here it is: //g.co/maps/gysy4 Hulleys are indeed still operating, but I’ll have to look up their history. I think the link with Wooliscroft/Silver Service was short-lived and they had to be rescued by someone else.
Peter Williamson
22/12/11 – 07:46
If what Chris says is true, then that would indeed make it the Seagull VII and 1959 was about as late as you could get. I know Hulley’s became independent of Wooliscroft but have no idea of the eventual (current) ownership. Some hazy reflection puts them back into the Hulley family but I could never swear to this.
David Oldfield
23/12/11 – 06:52
There is a history of Hulleys on their website //www.hulleys-of-baslow.co.uk/ which explains everything. The fleet now looks very smart in a dignified blue and cream livery which was originally inspired by second hand purchases from South Notts.
Peter Williamson
23/12/11 – 06:53
I am pretty sure the Great Yarmouth Freelines were the last, certainly for the home market. They were bought while Geoffrey Hilditch was the General Manager, a man who had very firm ideas on bus purchasing and as an engineer tended to go for high specification designs on the grounds they gave better pay-back in the long term. He took these principles to Halifax and then Leicester where he subsequently held the GM posts. It always seemed strange to me that while Daimler were very successful with their double deck designs, eg the CVG and the Fleetline, they were never as successful with single deckers. The Freeline was a well engineered chassis but on the heavy and expensive side at a time when the industry was moving to lighter weight and lower cost. The subsequent Roadliner seemed to be a disaster from the start.
Philip Halstead
23/12/11 – 06:55
Premier Travel and Valliant of Ealing were also customers for the Seagull Mk VII, amongst others. The first Mk VII, on Leyland Tiger Cub chassis, appeared at the 1958 Commercial Motor Show in Seagull Coaches of Blackpool livery, just like the original Seagull at the 1950 show. Several of the Valliant examples plus all four Yelloway examples ended up with Premier Travel, joining the one they bought new, which made Premier Travel the largest operator of the type. Burlingham’s offering for underfloor engined coaches in 1960 remained the Seagull Mk VII, the Seagull 70 only appearing for the 1961 season, ie a year later than the similarly styled Seagull 60 for forward engined chassis appeared.
Dave Williamson
23/12/11 – 12:15
I made several journeys in the Gt. Yarmouth Freelines in the early seventies when they were on hire to Eastern Counties and they were very pleasant vehicles to ride in – a sort of up market Bristol MW. I believe Yarmouth had a good line in hiring them to coach operators whose vehicles had broken down in the area.
Nigel Turner
24/12/11 – 06:46
The only time I ever saw the Great Yarmouth Freelines was at Huntingdon St Bus Station, Nottingham in the mid sixties. One would sometimes appear as a summer Saturday extra on Trent’s Great Yarmouth service. At this time, Trent often hired in Norfolk Motor Services coaches as required – presumably the Freeline was part of this arrangement?
Bob Gell
11/08/12 – 07:32
Belated update on 120 JRB (have only just discovered your site) – am most impressed by how quickly the location of this shot was nailed down, incidentally! Lovely image of what was – arguably – the final Daimler-engined Freeline (Burwell & District had the other such chassis that could make the same claim to fame). The lack of window-pillars made quite a visual difference, certainly in the flesh. Stephen asks if anyone knows the whereabouts of Dr 18: am guessing we know of her early years in preservation and subsequent re-emergence in a Barnsley scrapyard (what DID happen, though?) – since then, Dr 18 has covered quite a few miles, changing hands along the way several times, until (last I heard) she was in a barn near Uttoxeter with several other vehicles (so, not far from her Willington home) awaiting her turn for restoration. Somewhere, I have two or three colour shots of her in this location. If and when I find them, I’ll scan and submit. Would LOVE to meet up with Dr 18 again though, so if anyone has more recent info (I’m going back at least half-a-dozen years, via a contact)…
Clarence
13/10/15 – 06:20
Some 3 years on since the “turn” comment (11/08/12), the vehicle is still in the same shed in the same condition. Would feel that restoration really quite unlikely now.
Roger Burdett
07/12/15 – 06:15
Freeline 120 JRB is indeed located near Uttoxeter together with CD650 SRB 425 and is owned by Mr Andy Mould. It is indeed the only ‘complete’ surviving Freeline in GB and is well worthy of restoration. It is mechanically sound but does need a full body restoration. It is now unique.
Gerald Anthony
02/08/16 – 17:27
How nice to hear this coach has been preserved. The last I heard was that it was rotting in a scrapyard in the Bradford area. I was Youth Club Leader at Stretton Church during the 1960`s (Stretton being on the Blue Bus service route) We had a”Blackpool Trip” every year in September and would always ask for this coach known as “Daimler 18” because our coach enthusiasts liked the sound of the powerful Daimler engine and the hissing of the air operated clutch. I have a painting of 120 JRB standing outside Repton Church. I remember we paid less than £1 per person for the coach (out for 20 hours on a 240 mile round trip) and a ticket to see Cliff Richard in Blackpool plus a tour of the illuminations. We also asked for “Frank”. one of Blue Buses`s young drivers. Those were the days !!
Philip Whieldon
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
17/08/16 – 09:56
I was kind of hoping you might shed some light on the whole Seagull Mk7 history as I am the owner of Blue Bus Dr18 120 JRB I can find very little other history on this period of Burlinghams activity and just wondered how many ‘plastic pigs’ were built, the body panelled entirely in fibreglass providing all the outline with a straight framed body must have been a brave step and taken a lot of development, although far from their finest hour, having restored BMS 415 many years ago I can fully appreciate how good they could be and 120 JRB is far from that build quality even evident after many years. So I would be keen on know just how many were built I am aware of 999 EAE was 7 body numbers apart but I am told two of those numbers were allocated but never used. Any information would be gratefully received.
Andy Mould
18/08/16 – 06:48
Reference comment of Andy Mould 17/08/16. his restored coach BMS 415. Behind CFK 340 is BMS 415 returning from Manchester Museum 3rd of April 1982 location of photo is unknown any detail be gratefully accepted.
W Gash & Sons 1952 Daimler Freeline D650HS Burlingham C41C
After the posting of a W Gash & Sons T.I.M. ticket and the very interesting copy from Stephen Ford on the Old Bus Tickets website yesterday here is the Old Bus Photos contribution to the W Gash & Sons of Newark, Notts weekend.
It is a shot of one of the first two production D650HS Daimler Freelines that went to W Gash & Sons in 1952, who registered them NAL 782/3. They had Burlingham C41C Seagull bodies and remained with Gash until 1967, when they were apparently sold to Trent Concrete for staff transport. Seen here, in the summer of 1961 just departing Huntingdon Street Bus Station, Nottingham, is the second of the pair NAL 783 with Daimler CVD6/Massey KAL 580 in the background.
The very high driving position is clearly visible in this close up shot.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
01/01/12 – 07:17
What a wonderful sight to greet the New Year – low flying Seagulls! From personal experience I find the high driving position preferable. [At the time AEC had a high position but Leyland’s was almost uncomfortably low.]
David Oldfield
01/01/12 – 07:22
I visited Huntingdon Street last week and then seeing the shot above I thought an update may be of interest. Whilst the area formerly occupied by the bus station is still discernible, it is now completely covered by new buildings. The old bus station stands were in two parts which could perhaps have been described as southern half and northern half. The southern half is now completely built over with a multi-story apartment development (!) and the northern half is now occupied by a Staples office store. Surprisingly, the old factory type building seen in the background of many a Huntingdon Street Bus Station shot still survives. A pleasing note to record is that the rather nice art-deco style Barton garage is now in use again as a motor service centre after a long period of disuse and similar premises on the adjacent corner which I understand was once the garage of Robin Hood Coaches before being taken over by Barton are also back in use. The impressive Huntingdon House opposite the former bus station which were once Trent’s Nottingham office, booking office and chart room are still in use as specialist retail units. Like I have said before on other postings, a dead area now but visions of a wonderful former age can still be conjured up!
Chris Barker
01/01/12 – 13:55
They really did have high driving positions, didn’t they! A very evocative scene – was the sign ‘PLATFORM 4’ another way of saying ‘BAY 4’?
Chris Hebbron
01/01/12 – 19:11
If it’s 1952, does it have a quadrant change pre-select box?
David Oldfield
05/01/12 – 07:20
Alan Townsin’s book on postwar Daimlers states that the Freeline used “a CD650-style gate preselector”. A photo of a 1949 CD650 clearly shows that this is the same arrangement that was used on later CV models, with a horizontal lever on the left of the steering column, similar to the AEC Regent III. However, the book also states that the Freeline had a 5-speed gearbox, so presumably the detail of the gate would have been unique to that model.
As is with tradition on the south coast of England most open toppers were named, this bus was named “Northumbria” which is a county in the North East of England. All the the other open toppers of the same batch were also called after counties of England, I would be most upset if there wasn”t one called “Yorkshire” as registration CRU 180C was called “Lancashire”. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment. It would appear that all this batch of Bournemouth open top Fleetlines except this one were sold to London Transport for sightseeing duties I wonder why not this one where did it go? If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.
“Yorkshire” was the next bus in the batch, CRU 181C. Wasn’t this livery with the green-edged maroon band much classier than the messy blue and brown daubings on an overall yellow bus which replaced it? But, have you noticed the absolutely miniscule fleet number just above the offside headlamp? These always looked like they’d been done in Letraset and were virtually unreadable at any distance; the previous shaded gold style might have been a bit Olde Worlde but at least they were practical.
David Jones
05/07/11 – 06:40
The names chosen by Bournemouth Corporation for the convertible Fleetlines were a curious bunch. Bournemouth was in “Hampshire” (no 186) in those days of course, and “Dorset” (no 185) was next door. “Warwickshire” (no 182) and “Surrey” (no 189) may have been chosen in honour of the chassis- and body-builders respectively. Many of the town’s summer visitors may have come from “Staffordshire” (no 183), “Cheshire” (no 184), and possibly “Lancashire” (no 180) and “Yorkshire” (no 181), but “Northumberland” (no 188) and “Durham” (no 187) would seem to be pushing it a bit.
Michael Wadman
17/09/11 – 17:29
Mention has been made of the bright green lines outside the maroon bands on BCT buses and trolleybuses. I remember the older brown line, best described as “dark mud brown” (that’s from memory) which had been used previously. I will try to establish when the brown was changed to green, but am not hopeful – my best guess is around 1960 as I seem to remember that the first MF2B trolleybuses had the brown lining when new, although it might have been earlier when the wartime brown roofs were repainted yellow. The open-toppers (in fact convertibles with removable fibreglass roofs) were Bournemouth 180 to 189 CRU180C to CRU189C, and became London DMO class as follows: 182 – DMO1 Stockwell Princess 183 – DMO2 Southern Queen 184 – DMO3 Britannia 185 – DMO4 186 – DMO5 187 – DMO6 189 – DMO7 I will try to find out what happened to the ones that did not go to London.
Bill Nichols
21/11/11 – 09:22
I’m a 40 year old bus enthusiast lifelong resident to Bournemouth. Regards the fate of 180, 181 and 188, obviously CRU180C was preserved in the collection of the Bournemouth Passenger Transport Association 181 and 188 were withdrawn from service in Bournemouth circa spring 1979 and exported to Hong Kong (Source: Transbourne News, circular of BPTA, March 1986) Obviously I have no idea whether 181 and 188 still exist I somehow doubt it, sadly!
Patrick O’Connor
11/12/11 – 07:05
Just to confirm that 181 and 188 no longer exist. According to PSV Circle fleet history on Hong Kong operators, they entered service with Citybus Ltd in 1979; they were among the very first vehicles acquired by Citybus, along with similar, but closed top ex Bournemouth Fleetlines 190-3. By 1984, all six were in use as open toppers on tourist work. They were all withdrawn and scrapped in 1986 (181/8/90/2/3) or 1987 (191). Of those that went to London, 184 subsequently operated for many years for Guide Friday, mainly in Stratford on Avon. Does anyone know if this survives in preservation?
Bob Gell
11/12/11 – 16:06
I have a feeling, Bob, that 184 went to Ensign Bus when they took over Guide Friday and is in store with them. That was the position a few months ago, anyway.
Chris Hebbron
23/02/12 – 12:41
The similarities to the Alexander bodied Fleetlines and Atlanteans we had at Northern General are remarkable, the front panel and windscreen would appear to be to be identical, so who copied who, or was one built under licence to the other?
Ronnie Hoye
23/02/12 – 14:00
Both Newcastle and Leeds had batches of identical bodies on Atlantean chassis. However the Newcastle ones did not have engine bustles and neither operators bought open top versions! I think it may have been Newcastle who were the first customers for this design as it was very similar to their Alexander bodied examples.
Chris Hough
24/02/12 – 07:08
Chris. Newcastle did have two open top Atlanteans, but they were the result of accident damage, both had been involved in arguments with bridges and unsurprisingly in both cases the bridge won. One of them went to Percy Main depot and was used on a Sea Front service operated by Northern on behalf of what was by that time the Tyne and Wear PTE, I think the other vehicle went south of the river and ran from South Shields to Sunderland. I seem to remember that in for the Queens silver Jubilee in 1977 one, or possible both of them were painted silver and had either the Royal Coat of Arms or a Crown on them.
Ronnie Hoye
25/02/12 – 07:25
The answer to “who copied who” is that Weymann optionally put the Alexander front end on to their standard body. Roe did something similar with windscreens but not the dash panel (see www.sct61.org.uk/gy57 ). But whether anyone paid Alexander for the privilege I wouldn’t know.
Peter Williamson
25/02/12 – 08:56
…..but it’s always been the case. East Lancs had their R type clone, but the earliest Alexanders were Leyland (Ribble) and Weymann (Glasgow – and Liverpool?) bodies built under licence. The Leyland Royal Tiger Alexander coach had more than awhiff of the Leyland as well.
David Oldfield
26/04/12 – 06:22
Four of this batch of Fleetlines certainly survived until 2011 – and hopefully still do. 180 and fixed top 197 ex-B’mth Museum are now at the West of England Transport Museum, 187 is in private preservation nr. Southampton and 184 is with Ensign bus. The detachable roofs actually combined the same amount of metal and glass-fibre as the permanent version – only 180 still has one. The first MCW bodies to this style for Bournemouth were built on Atlantean chassis in 1964 (170 survives), the last on similar chassis in 1966 (none remain). Very similar MCW Alexander lookalike bodies were delivered to Newcastle, Leeds and BOAC. It was the inability of MCW to build a further Bournemouth batch in 1968 that led to the genuine Alexander product finally arriving in 1969. Happily the resultant delay allowed the trolleybuses several months stay of execution! The relationship with Alexander then continued for over one hundred buses until 1990! The lining issue is simpler than it seems, a dark olive green was used between yellow and maroon from the first trams until 1962 when it was replaced by lighter shade ‘Buckingham’ green. The first vehicles so painted were the last nine Sunbeam trolleybuses. Future repaints used this colour green although the old scheme could be seen until 1969 – lastly on trolleybus No.280. The description of muddybrown arises because the varnish used in those days to finish off the brush applied paintwork would tend to yellow badly, combining with the olive green to become chocolate in colour – the maroon discolouring to dark chocolate and the yellow oddly brightening with age! The lighter green seemed to escape this process.
mf2b
17/07/13 – 07:00
I can clearly recollect a lengthy article, complete with photographs, in the Bournemouth Evening Echo when these buses were introduced. It mentioned the novel concept of the detachable roofs and the fact that the buses would be in the general-use fleet during the winter months. I wish I still had the clipping! It no doubt survives in the ‘Echo’ archives. The general travelling public would have been probably unaware that they were travelling on a ‘convertible’ in the winter, but the names were a giveaway as the rest of the fleet did not carry any.
Grahame Arnold
04/08/13 – 14:56
I took a few shots on the 29-03-1975 to record the passing of the traditional Bournemouth livery with the 2 red/green bands. Already by this time the rot was setting in, with adverts on the exteriors and the traditional Bournemouth large yellow bus stop signs being replaced with ‘standard’ ones. However, note that the driver is still smartly turned-out, even on a Sunday! AEL177B was one of the 1964 batch from Leyland with Alexander bodywork. They were comfortable buses, but noisier than the ‘CRU’ Fleetlines which followed in 1965.
Grahame Arnold
28/03/15 – 14:33
I know the messages have gone quiet on this. But just on the off-chance that someone reads this that knows the current owners. I’d like to speak to them. This summer these attractive and well designed, comfortable vehicles are/would have been 50 years old. CRU 180C was delivered new on 29/6/65 and 188 on 3/8/65. It would be great if someone knew if one was still roadworthy as I’d like to have a ride on it again?
Geoff Clarke
06/05/15 – 07:17
Geoff, 3 of these survive for sure they are 180, 187 and my 184. E-mail me through this site I can explain further.
Nick Jackson
06/07/15 – 06:36
Buses Magazine September 1983 Issue Page 410 DMO 2 and DMO 5 (CRU 183/6C) exported to California by Ensignbus
David Rawsthorn
20/03/17 – 13:55
As an update, my Bear Cross Bus Company now owns 187 as well as 184. 187 now has a current MOT and it’s due to be repainted at the end of April. All being well it will make an appearance at the Bournemouth Bus Rally in June. Unfortunately it won’t be fully restored though. On the subject of painting, could “mf2b” please advise me what shade the crimson/maroon band should be? I have two thoughts on the subject but can’t decide what the post-1962 lighter shade should be and have nothing to compare against. Thanks.
Nick Jackson
21/03/17 – 06:16
Tim Salter had made quite a lot of progress recently but it’s been a mammoth task to restore it. I believe it might see some new paint this summer but don’t quote me on that!
Nick Jackson
21/03/17 – 08:43
Nick Martyn Hearson at Reliance Bus Works has a history of painting Bournemouth vehicles both for himself and Daniel Shears – he may know.
Roger Burdett
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
18/04/17 – 07:40
I know Martyn and his excellent standard of workmanship. Tim Salter will be painting FEL216 himself, as he retires this summer and will have more time for the project.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Blue Bus Services 1962 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Northern Counties H40/33F
Blue Bus Services was the operating name of Tailby & George who were located at Willington in Derbyshire. This bus was the 54th Fleetline chassis built its sister vehicle registration 324 YNU was the first production Fleetline chassis built numbered 60003 the three chassis before were all owned by Daimler and were number 60000 a demonstrator registration 7000 HP, 60001 an experimental chassis and 60002 a demonstration chassis. Blue Bus Services actually purchased the demonstrator 7000 HP after it had done its rounds but unfortunately it and many other buses were destroyed when the Willington bus depot burnt down in 1976.
07/03/11 – 09:22
Yes a great loss, I have a rare ring binder bound book on Blue Bus by a small long gone concern known as Morley’s Bible and Book shop, Nottingham Rd, Ilkeston. from about 1978.
Roger Broughton
07/03/11 – 16:09
Yes, I remember visiting the shop and knew the proprietor – John Moorley (spelt that way if I remember rightly).
Stephen Ford
18/03/11 – 07:55
I worked for Blue Bus for 4 years as an apprentice engineer and left to go to Nottingham City Transport in 1971. It was a fantastic, varied fleet that always looked smart in the hand painted argyle blue and cream livery. Buses were properly cleaned and mopped almost daily, a standard that was probably higher than many current operators achieve nowadays. If I can help anyone who wants to know anything about the company or their buses I will, just ask, as I was proud to work there, and it set the scene for the vehicle standards I have worked to achieve ever since as an Engineering Director. Incidentally, my last role was the accountability for engineering and maintenance for a 70,000 bus and coach fleet in the USA and Canada, including the ubiquitous Greyhound fleet. Not bad for a Blue Bus lad from the wilds of Willington!
John Ashmore
18/03/11 – 09:16
Big trees from little (blue) acorns grow! Perhaps you could write a potted history for the ARTICLES section – I’m sure we’d all be interested, especially in any amusing incidents.
Chris Hebbron
19/03/11 – 07:59
I think that 325 YNU was one of 10 pre production chassis, another of which was PMT L899 which had a virtually identical low height Northern Counties body and was delivered in 1962. L899 had chassis number 60027 which seems a bit high for a pre production chassis but that was what I was told whilst at PMT.
Ian Wild
07/05/11 – 18:43
Moorleys shop is certainly long gone but the company survives as a Print and Publishing company. I have retired but still take an interest in the business. Visit //www.moorleys.co.uk for both company history and current titles published.
John Moorley
28/01/12 – 08:46
Hi, I wonder if someone could help me. In this thread you mention a bus with the registration 7000 HP. I have found a photo of this bus and my Mum and I believe it could be my Dad driving it. (really exiting if it is as I only have one photo of my Dad) The bus is in a Street in Sunderland, it is the number 23, destination Roker. I am just trying to find out what year’s this bus was on the road, and if possibly find out when it was in Sunderland, then we can see if we can match it to the years my Dad was a driver. I hope someone can help me a little with this. Many thanks in advance
Lorna
28/01/12 – 17:35
Hi Lorna – well, 7000 HP was a Daimler “demonstrator” – ie one loaned to any interested operator to see if they would like to order some after a short trial. If your picture is in Sunderland it is likely to have been on loan to the Corporation for a very short spell – it was new in 1960 and was sold by Daimler in 1966 so the Sunderland loan must have been sometime in that very wide window.
Can anyone narrow it down to a closer date?
Chris Youhill
29/01/12 – 16:46
Just to add to Chris’s comment, indeed this vehicle was a demonstrator and went to many operators and spent a considerable time with Birmingham City Transport. The picture here: //www.flickr.com/ and date in text may help further.
Nigel Edwards
29/01/12 – 20:21
Lorna, Chris: As 7000 HP was a demonstration vehicle, and the first of Sunderland’s own Fleetlines arrived towards the end of 1962, I would suggest the photo could have been taken in 1961 or 1962.
Bob Gell
20/02/12 – 08:54
Hi Lorna I also have a photo of 7000 HP in Sunderland on route 23 (Thorney Close). It’s in it’s demonstration livery similar to Birmingham Corporation’s, but has Sunderland Corporation showing on the top of the near side windscreen. Unfortunately it is not dated but looks to be 1961 or 1962 as suggested. The engine bonnet cover does not look to be the extended one fitted when a wider Cummins engine was installed as a mobile test bed, so I do not think it was 1965/6, at least.
John Ashmore
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
24/04/12 – 06:42
There is mention several times in these files of Geoff Hilditch. A former boss of mine (in Southampton City Council) once told me a story regarding the advent of the Dennis Dominator. My boss and Mr Hilditch had both worked for the same Council at one time and appear to have still been in contact when the Dominator entered the arena. I’d have put this entry under the Dennis Dominator, but it doesn’t seem to appear in the menu on the right, so I’ll file it under Daimler instead. Any readers who want something approaching the truth about how we came to have the Dominator, can find a suitable story on the “Encyclopaedia” website. There are some detail differences between what appears there and what my boss told me, but you’d expect that! Suffice to say that the Dominator was virtually a clone of the Fleetline. Leyland, for their own reasons, didn’t want to sell Fleetlines to Mr Hilditch in the numbers he wanted to buy, and over the number of years he wanted to buy them. Leyland’s arrogance has been mentioned in these files, and it isn’t just relating to their bus production.
Pete Davies
24/04/12 – 09:07
…..but the sad thing is that we all use Leyland as a short hand for British Leyland Motor Corporation who made the proud and historic marque a toxic name and a laughing stock. Even through the bleak years, really good vehicles were produced AN68s, Leopards and Reliances to name but three. Any problems with these were mainly as a result of BLMC ownership which starved Leyland Bus of money for R & D – and possibly quality control. [Tigers, Titans and Olympians were all delayed years because of this starvation.] We can only gasp in astonishment at the arrogance and ignorance that forced the Leyland National Mark 1 on an unsuspecting market and public – and at the expense of the Bristol RE!
David Oldfield
24/04/12 – 16:29
Mention of the Dennis Dominator brings to mind the Dennis test bed for this model which was a former Leeds Daimler CVGLX/30 517 7517 UA Dating from 1959 and carrying a Roe body the bus was finished in a red livery and toured operators prior to production commencing. In its new guise it was re engined and given Voith transmission and a Loline rear axle. It was eventually bought by Leicester for spares. A fake Dominator visited 10 Downing Street as a publicity event. It was fake because it was actually an East Lancs bodied Atlantean of Brighton with a Dennis nameplate on the front! Of course South Yorks PTE had the largest fleet of Dominators in the UK with 349 buses and the solitary Dennis trolleybus which survives at Sandtoft Museum
