The Comet was Leyland’s offering in the same market sector as Bedford’s all-conquering OB, though with a few more seats and (usually) a diesel engine. It was a purpose-built PSV chassis, sharing mechanical components with the truck of the same name and similar appearance. This Plaxton-bodied example was new to Dickson of Dundee (any connection with the Dickson who built pre-war bus bodies for Dundee Corporation?), and by 1968 was working for McLeod of Helmsdale, with whom it is seen here in the operator’s home village.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Peter Williamson
20/10/13 – 17:13
I think this is one of the best looking Comets I’ve ever seen. Perhaps not an easy chassis to body because the bonnet line was somewhat higher than other normal control models and some efforts were a little unfortunate but Plaxtons made a very nice job of this one. Pity no ‘eyebrow’ display apertures were provided but perhaps none were specified.
Chris Barker
20/10/13 – 17:14
I had a Bristol LH training bus with a Leyland Comet engine. Was this the norm for Bristol LH?
Michael Crofts
21/10/13 – 07:14
Michael. The two engines for the LH were a Perkins and the Leyland O401. The Leyland was a development of the O400 (popular in Beford VAL and VAM 14s and used in late Tiger Cubs). The O400 was the ultimate development of the original O350 used in the Tiger Cub which transited through a O375 version. All of these, in there turn, were very closely related to the O300 (and the P300) – the Comet engine.
David Oldfield
21/10/13 – 12:13
I did wonder what had happened to Perkins, suspecting it had gone the way of most of our industrial base. However, good news, it’s thriving as a subsidiary of Caterpillar Inc., but primarily a diesel engine manufacturer for Agricultural, Construction, Material Handling, Power Generation and Industrial uses nowadays.
Chris Hebbron
18/02/14 – 08:06
This vehicle operated with Williamson of Gauldry in the late 50s early 60s. Other ex Dicksons coaches with Williamsons at that time were Commer Commando Plaxton ATS 35, Austin Plaxton AYJ 153 and Daimler CVD6 Plaxton AYJ 278.
Jim Speed
18/02/14 – 11:42
Dicksons of Dundee were taken over in the 1960s by Wallace Arnold and some of their superb coaches were transferred to Leeds where I had the pleasure of working with them. I hope my memory isn’t playing tricks, but I seem to recall that the seating cloth was of a lovely tartan derived pattern.
Chris Youhill
18/02/14 – 14:35
Nice picture here of Terry and Hazel Ellin’s beautifully restored Comet/Duple. www.ipernity.com/ and some history here www.sytm.co.uk/
John Darwent
18/02/14 – 16:15
Strange John. Reading recent posts reminded me of the same – superbly renovated – vehicle.
Douglas Corporation 1959 Leyland Comet CPO1 Park Royal B30F
We don’t often see a Leyland Comet with bus or coach body, as it was normally considered to be a lorry chassis, and we see even fewer in Municipal liveries, but Douglas Corporation’s fleet was renowned for being “different”! KMN 519 is an example of the CPO1 model, with Park Royal B30F body, and we see it in Bold Street, Fleetwood, on 18 July 1999. It is taking part in the Tram Sunday event.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
20/08/16 – 05:56
Just look at that enormous bonnet, the steering wheel and imagine the driving position in relation to it. To pull up behind a small car in heavy traffic must require some careful judgement!
Chris Barker
20/08/16 – 10:25
No problem at all, just stop where you can still see Tyres and Tarmac, shouldn’t be any closer anyway.
John Lomas
20/08/16 – 10:25
The Douglas fleet always seemed to be immaculately maintained and turned out. It had several quirky features. In addition to these bonnetted Comets it had Guys similar in design to LT’s GS class which had huge destination boxes front and back for the very informative route blinds. There were also some ‘conventional’ saloons with the same arrangement. Some of the Regent V double deckers also had the large destination displays. Brings back happy memories of holidays spent on the island in the summers of 1967 and 1970. Another quirky feature in those days was the pubs being open all day!
Philip Halstead
20/08/16 – 11:09
Interesting thought from Chris, and reply from John. I used to work with a fellow whose parking idea in the office car park was to apply the handbrake when he hit the wall. One of my neighbours uses the same method. He calls it ‘parking by braille’. . .
Pete Davies
21/08/16 – 11:07
Actually, Chris, the driver’s view from the cab of the Comet was not as bad as the picture of the Douglas example suggests. That photo has been taken from a position quite low at the front, which exaggerates the bonnet height and length. I frequently drove the former Brown Bus (A.T. Brady of Forest Green) Comet CPO1 on the Forest Green – Ewhurst – Wallis Wood – Horsham route on my weekend moonlighting job (excuse mixed metaphor) when the Brady business was taken over in 1971 by J.D. Wylde t/a North Downs Rural Transport. Initially, the Comet model was powered by the 75 bhp Leyland O300 5 litre diesel, though a petrol option was offered for export. The direct top five speed gearbox had sliding mesh engagement for first and second, and constant mesh for third and fourth. A Girling hydraulic braking system was fitted. In 1950 the engine became the 90 bhp O350 of 5.76 litres, and the model thus became known as the Comet 90. The bonnet structure was the product of Briggs Motor Bodies which also supplied the front end for the LT Guy GS bus, as well as Ford and Dodge goods models. When Ford took over Briggs in 1953, the supply to other manufacturers ceased. Here is a picture of OPB 536, a 1950 CPO1 machine with a Duple C32F body, taken at Forest Green. The Comet was a pleasant vehicle to drive, and the gearbox quite easy to use. Its only vice was the abysmally large turning circle that required precise placing of the machine on tight corners. I recall reading somewhere that OPB 536 was originally supplied with a petrol engine but was quickly converted to diesel, though this seems improbable to me. I understood that OPB 536 was subsequently bought by preservationists but I can find no recent references to it, so one must fear the worst.
Roger Cox
21/08/16 – 16:19
Actually, Roger, the view was taken at my normal viewing height of camera to eye – I’m 5ft 8in – and with my feet on the road. I suspect your view of OPB might have been taken from a grassy bank. Yes, the angle of view does affect the perception quite a lot!
Pete Davies
22/08/16 – 17:01
Parking by Braille was fine when cars had proper bumpers; these days breathing too heavily near the car might need a respray! (only a slight exaggeration)
Here we have another wonderful example of how a coat of paint can make such a difference to the way almost anything can appear. MYA 590 is a Leyland Comet CPP1 with Harrington C29F body. In the first view, it is in the livery of Scarlet Coaches of Minehead, and it is in the Southsea rally on 17 June 1984.
In this second view, it has been repainted blue and cream to star alongside Joan Hickson in the ‘Miss Marple’ film, Nemesis. This view was captured at Netley on 12 July 1987.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
09/03/17 – 07:02
I seem to remember that, during the 1950s, the livery change between the top colour and the lower was achieved by a ‘blend’ of the two colours down the rear corner panels. This was fashionable at the time, although must have been incredibly difficult to achieve. Virtually impossible to achieve with brush painting, so presumably the gradual change from the light colour to the dark might have been a way of showing off the ‘new spray painting’ technique. It’s not a feature I have seen on any currently preserved coaches, but this picture of the unnatural hard line between the two colours has sparked the memory of this old style. Anybody else remember it?
Petras409
10/03/17 – 17:39
Can anyone suggest why, given Leyland’s good name, the Comet was not more popular? Did the Tiger Cub sweep it away?
Ian Thompson
11/03/17 – 07:23
Pure guesswork on my part Ian. The Comet was a very successful commercial vehicle chassis, with production continuing through the forward control LAD and ergomatic cabs in both rigid and artic unit form. However, it gave coach bodybuilders less design scope, and lower seating capacity than the under floor chassis of a Royal Tiger or Tiger Cub
Ronnie Hoye
12/03/17 – 07:45
Thanks, folks!
Pete Davies
12/03/17 – 07:46
The Comet wasn’t in the same market as the underfloor-engined chassis. As a lightweight with a seating capacity probably limited to 32, it was competing with the Bedford OB and Albion Victor. It’s likely to have been more expensive than both, and didn’t really offer anything extra.
Peter Williamson
13/03/17 – 16:32
Later passenger variants of the Comet were forward control but aimed primarily for export. There was a Duple bodied ECPO12/2T in preservation once, this was one of a handful sold on the home market, the Albion Victor and the SB, particularly with a Leyland Engine, not to mention the Ford and Commer alternatives made it a non-starter over here although it was very popular in New Zealand with the Bedford SB8 and SB13 known as the “Poor Man’s Comet”.
Stephen Allcroft
16/08/17 – 07:10
With regard to the piece by Roger Cox, a photo showing Comet OPB 536 next to Wimbledon Coaches or Allco’s RF 266 (MLL 803) taken at Cobham Bus Museum has recently appeared on my son Simon’s Facebook page, but I can find no further mention of it in preservation, unless anyone knows better!
Dave Kriesler
11/02/18 – 06:28
Thanks for the picture of MYA 590. It used to be parked in the open near the sea front in Minehead between tours, and must have been the best polished commercial vehicle I have ever seen. You could always see your face in it. The owner must have spent every night polishing, because I never saw any work being done on it during the day. Glad it ended up making popular films – it really deserved to be seen, even if in different livery. Scarlets was a small company with usually only one bus – as far as I know, except when one was replaced and they ran two – perhaps just for a summer season. My brother suggests that in 1982-83 the Royal Veterinary College used a Scarlet bus which sounds very like MYA 590 to transport a student running team to Holland (in both years).
Sorry to go on, but your page has got me going. I have been reminded that Scarlet Pimpernel of Minehead and Blue coaches of Porlock (both with a single vehicle, it seems) merged in 1954, and continued until about 1970. Both Vehicles are now in Coventry, MYA 590 in Pimpernel livery and its stable mate (JYC 855) in Scarlet and Blue. (latest picture/record I have found is 2017 (of JYC)) With a 20 year career of summer day tripping over Exmoor (including the famous Countisbury Hill into Lynmouth) and winter theatre trips to Bristol, Bath and Weston Super Mare etc, shows the quality of these vehicles especially as there was no back up if one broke down.They still seem to make regular trips down to the London Bus Museums open day at Brooklands in April, possibly under their own steam?
Huw Jones
11/02/18 – 08:40
It is just JYC that is based in Coventry MYA being in Surrey I think. There is another Scarlet Motors Harrington on an AEC chassis complete in Bromsgrove but the owner has not taken it out for several years. There is a Blue Motors Harrington Bodied Cheetah based in Sussex. MYA+JYC last got together in 2015 or 2016 at Brooklands in their Harrington/Weymann anniversary get together. JYC is on the road every two years and 2018 is an on the road year. Only confirmed appearance is in the Oct Isle of Wight Beer & Buses Weekend.
Roger Burdett
05/01/19 – 06:42
I have a few photos of the AEC Roger when for a short period it was owned by Howard Homer. Unfortunately the lighting wasn’t very good as it was undercover, this would have been in the 90s.
Portsmouth Corporations fleet number 46 was the last of a batch of 6 Leyland LZ4 Cheetahs, 41-46 (BTP 941-946), with locally-built Wadham bodywork, new in 1939. 41 and 42 were withdrawn in 1941, after suffering war damage. This view of 46 at Eastney Depot was taken about 1954 when the remaining four of them were withdrawn from service and were awaiting disposal. Note the sad appearance, bald front tyres and single wheels only on the rear! Although I only holidayed in Portsmouth and Southsea from 1949-1956, I never recall ever seeing these buses in service. Note the bus is surrounded by some of the nine 1944 Duple-bodied utility Daimler CWA6’s of which virtually no photos seem to exist. In 1959, the chassis were thoroughly overhauled and they were despatched to be re-fitted with Crossley bodies, some of the last Crossley bodies built, only to be scrapped in 1965! With only nine pre-selective gear change vehicles in the fleet, they were greatly abused, with inexperienced drivers using the gear change pedal as a clutch pedal, with lots of juddering. As a visiting Londoner, living in the Daimlerland Merton/Sutton area, it made me cringe!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
The Cheetahs were bought for the Southsea Sea Front Service, but of course this ceased in September 1939. The bodies had sunshine roofs and a total of six destination screens to inform the tourists of the attractions on the route. The bodies were reportedly heavy for the lightweight chassis, which was fine for a ride down the promenade, but a problem on normal services.After the war they were used on peak time specials when the fleet was understrength, but very little else. Interestingly there is a record of No.43 running on mileage equalisation duties on Southdown Service 138 from Fareham to Cosham over Portsdown Hill. That would have tested its Leyland 4.7 litre engine.
Pat Jennings
It’s true the bus behind is one of the CWA6/Duples, as all nine were withdrawn in 1954 to go to Crossley for new bodies, being returned in 1955. Thus they did 11 years with original, and 11 years as rebodied, being withdrawn in 1965/66. But those at the side of the Cheetah are Craven-bodied TD4s of the 131-160 batch. These would be either early withdrawals, or set aside for a work-shop rebuild. CPPTD carried out a lot of rebuilding work on the Cravens bodied TD4s and the trolleybuses from c. 1949-1957/58, although not every member of these batches received such work.
Michael Hampton
I agree with ‘Michael Hampton’ with regards to the re-bodying of the ‘Daimler CWA6’. A rather elderly Bus Book I have from 1963 states that they were re-bodied in 1955 by Crossley. I think it would have been a lot to ask, that a Double Deck ‘Utility’ body last fifteen years, (unless heavily rebuilt), with the dreadful quality Wartime materials allowed by the ‘Ministry of Supplies’ for Bus Bodies. Even the paint allowed was little better than ‘coloured water’!! Credit must be give to ‘C.P.P.T.D’ for managing to keep the Utility bodies in service for eleven years. Before the eventual & inevitable – re-bodying process.
John
Does anyone have a photo of the CWA6’s as re-bodied? I can’t think of any Crossley bodied Daimlers (with exposed radiators that is).
Chris Barker
Oldham had fifteen Crossley-bodied CVD6 (322-336) and Manchester had fifty CVG5 with their characteristic body (4000-4049). Also Lancaster had a solitary (I think) CWG5 rebodied by Crossley. However, it is possible you are thinking of the later Park Royal-designed Crossley body and I have to say I can’t think of any other examples.
David Beilby
No, actually I was thinking of the earlier type of Crossley body of the style with the stepped rear windows, which may be called ‘true’ Crossley bodies. The Portsmouth fleet list on Classic Bus Links states that they were re-bodied in 1959, very late for a wartime chassis to be treated, I thought that T Burrows ex London Daimlers were the last to receive new bodies in 1957. Anyone know which date is correct? If it was 1959 as stated by Chris Hebbron above, they would of course have had the Park Royal style of body, still worth seeing with the exposed radiator and strange if they only lasted six years as such.
Chris Barker
Chris Barker – I will post a photo of a re-bodied Daimler shortly. They were pleasant enough, but nothing like any other Crossley bodies I’ve seen. What I’m actually after is a photo of one of them BEFORE they were re-bodied! Such photos are be very rare. Any holders of one out there?
Chris Hebbron
The date of 1959 cannot be correct for the rebodying as the Crossley factory had been closed over a year by then. In fact they entered service in September and October 1955. It turns out there were not many batches of Daimlers bodied postwar by Crossley. In addition to those I listed the remaining ones were the nine Portsmouth examples, 250 for Birmingham (2776-2900 and 3103 to 3227) and 35 for Aberdeen (175-204 and 210-214).
David Beilby
Thank you, David, for clarifying the revised date to 1955. I, too, took the Classic Bus Link date of 1959. I notice that Birmingham’s Daimler CVG6 3225 survives and the Crossley bodywork gives only the merest nod to their standard Corporation design!
Chris Hebbron
Chris Hebbron has actually sent me a shot of a Portsmouth Crossley rebodied exposed radiator Daimler CWA6 it will be posted in its own right Wednesday 19th January.
Blue Motors 1939 Leyland Cheetah LZ5 Harrington C31F
EYA 923 was new in 1939. She is a Leyland Cheetah LZ5, with Harrington C31F body, complete with the tailfin, and we see her at Amberley during the Harrington Gathering on 3 June 2012. Some confusion creeps in about her origins, as I have seen mentions in different places of Blue Motors of Minehead, Blue Motors of Porlock, and others, but the rear view of this magnificent vehicle should settle that!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
09/11/15 – 06:52
Harringtons were one of those coachbuilders who produced bodywork with a curved waistrail which fell away sharply towards the rear end, as amply demonstrated here. Am I correct in thinking I’ve read somewhere that one of the functions of the dorsal fin, if not it’s main purpose, was to provide a little extra headroom for passengers who wished to access the rear seats?
Chris Barker
09/11/15 – 08:54
You may be right, Chris, and thank you for your comment. My understanding has always been that it was associated with ventilation.
Pete Davies
10/11/15 – 07:38
Yes, that is my understanding too.. Not apparent here, it widens out as it joins the roofline providing space for a head! Ventilation is a secondary function. Porlock Weir, Blue Motors base, is just outside Minehead, so it would appear that Minehead, out of which excursions were operated aids those without detailed geographical knowledge! Unusually there is no phone no, but when the coach first entered service, there weren’t many phones . . .
Philip Lamb
10/11/15 – 07:39
Thomas Harrington applied for a patent on 5th November 1935, granted as 461026 in February 1937, for which the preamble said “It is usual nowadays to streamline motor coaches and one result of this is that difficulties are experienced in providing sufficient headroom along the central gangway, and an even more important consideration is the provision of adequate ventilation of motor road coaches which presents its special difficulties. The object of our inventor is to provide a motor coach of pleasing appearance which will also have more adequate ventilation and improved headroom and which will moreover lead itself to more effective internal lighting”. The detailed specification went on describe how this was accomplished, and the diagram shows the familiar dorsal fin. So, Chris and Peter are both right !!
Peter Delaney
10/11/15 – 07:40
Those louvers would create a low pressure area thus drawing the stale air out from the back of the coach with fresh air entering from further forward (open windows or vents)
John Lomas
10/11/15 – 07:40
The Harrington Dorsal Fin was patented as a ventilation device but it also added headroom in mid gangway on designs such as this one. Nice to see it in such good condition.
Stephen Allcroft
10/11/15 – 15:39
I wonder just how suitable the Lynx chassis was for coach operations, normally well-filled with passengers, especially in the challenging byeways of North Devon. The TS8 would surely have been a better choice.
Chris Hebbron
11/11/15 – 07:17
Chris, various Bedfords and Fords (and other “lightweight” models) were the choice of many independent (and some “combine”) tour operators in later years. No doubt tour coaches were subject to less “stresses-and-strains” as they didn’t have to stop/start as frequently as service buses, nor were they subject to such prolonged “hammering” as express coaches. True, a Tiger might have romped up the Devon hills quicker – but is that what the punters would have paid their money for? And no doubt a Cheetah cost less up-front than a Tiger, and so could be replaced earlier in its life.
Philip Rushworth
11/11/15 – 16:27
With reference to what Chris and Philip were saying the worry for me would be going _down_ the Devon hills in a Cheetah. However it was fairly successful as a lightweight full-size coach within its limits, much more so than the AEC Regal II.
Stephen Allcroft
13/11/15 – 06:31
My chief fear would be to be going down the Devon hills pursued by a Cheetah…..
Rob McCaffery
13/11/15 – 13:29
Rob’s comment reminds me of the look on the face of one of the St Andrew’s Ambulance crew on the Sunday of Glasgow Vintage Vehicle Trust’s open weekend when I said I had to run as I had a Western Leopard to catch.
Stephen Allcroft
16/11/15 – 05:32
It is worth noting that the term “observation Coach” painted on the rear display of EYA 923 refers to another Harrington patented feature – a floor-line rising in steps towards the rear of the vehicle allowing passengers improved vision over the heads of those in forward seats. All coachwork styles with this feature were officially called called Observation Coach, while the style illustrated tended to be called a “Torpedo” to differentiate it from others. This attractive swooping waist rail design was not the most numerous of the immediate pre-war Harrington production and it strikes me was probably lighter, for although it was available on heavyweight chassis such as the AEC Regal, was most likely to be found on lighter ones, such as Leyland Cheetahs and Cubs.
Nick Webster
14/08/16 – 06:04
Blue Motors HQ and main garage was in North Road at Minehead, under what is now a block of flats. A small sub-depot existed at Porlock Weir, some 8 miles from Minehead and this building (which still stands) was capable of holding two of their vehicles. For a long period Blue Motors operated the Porlock Weir – Porlock – Minehead bus service hence the out-station.
Chris
16/01/19 – 07:33
I was put on a coach as a young lad with a tail-fin… at ‘The Bakers Arms’ Stratford in East London in the early fifties. I don’t know where the Journey began but it stopped at the Bakers Arms above…then in Saffron Walden in Essex and I guess finished in Haverhill Suffolk. I’m wondering if any other manufacture made a coach with a tail-fin as I always had the impression it was a Bedford coach. Also have to say I think I thought it quite disappointing inside, not modern at all, also I’m sure the clock inside was Art Deco!! only a kids impression as it was about 67 years ago.
Ken Bradley
18/01/19 – 06:35
Looking at the Harrington Body numbers I can find no Dorsal Fins with a Bedford Chassis. They appear to be Leyland AEC Foden and Commer.
The Leyland Badger was a haulage model introduced in 1920, but progressively developed for heavier weights up to the outbreak of WW2. This little bus, a TA4 4 tonner (denoting payload), was purchased by Bradford for its Welfare Department in 1930, when the city motorbus fleet then consisted of AEC 413, Leyland Lion PLSC and Bristol B full sized saloons, and Leyland TD1 double deckers. The B20F body is thought to be the oldest Plaxton product still in existence. Having served the Corporation for some 32 years, KW 7604 was deservedly sold into preservation in 1962. It is shown here on a Brighton HCVC Rally in the very early 1970s (sadly my slide is an undated Agfa) being followed by the Wigan Leyland PD1 JP 6032 through Preston Park, with the spectacular LBSC railway viaduct in the background.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
01/07/22 – 06:07
Bradford CT Miscellaneous Fleet number O23, worked for the Education Department and had daily runs to a special school in Lister Lane, Bradford whilst being maintained and garaged by the Transport Department. Most of the work from 1949 was done by Bedford OB’s numbered 024 to 026, leaving 023 available if needed. Sold for preservation to the LVVS, it has appeared in various liveries and in films/TV. https://www.lvvs.org.uk/kw7604.htm gives further details.
I do not have many photos of rear engined buses they did not have the same charisma has the front engined buses, a little bit boxy for me. Although this Northern Counties body on this bus does look good, mind you I think it was brand new at the time I took the photo. According to the fleet lists I researched the information from for this bus it is classed as a highbridge body but the fleet number ends in an “L” which would suggest lowbridge so why the “L”? If you know, let me know, please leave a comment. Photo taken again at the old Bradford bus station, and the bus in the background is an AEC Regent V of Yorkshire Woollen District.
The term “lowbridge” or “highbridge” refers to whether or not the bus has a sunken offside or a central gangway on the upper deck, and not to the overall height of the bus. Any bus with a drop-centre rear axle (Lodekka, Fleetline, later Atlanteans etc. can be lower in overall height than one with a conventional straight rear axle and still have a centre gangway upstairs, at the expense of a more complicated floor layout in the lower saloon. Tracky were plagued by lots of low bridges, so they nearly always went for the low height option, and the fleet number code was intended to tell staff where the bus could safely go, rather than the seating layout.
David A Jones
That’s a lovely picture of a Tracky bus and shows a service which disappeared some time ago. The 66 service to Sheffield was a marathon and took 2 hours and 44 minutes to get from one end to the other. It was split in the late sixties and after that Sheffield C fleet double-deckers, which also worked the service, were no longer seen in Bradford. Yorkshire Traction took a brief break before returning with joint operation of a revised Huddersfield to Bradford via Cleckheaton service in the early seventies.
David Beilby
The PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans had the Albion Lowlander drop axle and a Daimler gearbox. Early PDR1/1s were not particularly good or reliable – especially compared with PD Titans – but the nadir was reached with drop axle versions. It took until 1972 for Leyland to produce another top quality bus, the AN68 Atlantean, which never had a drop axle version. [By that time, Leyland offered either the Daimler Fleetline or Bristol VRT for this option.]
David Oldfield
The PDR1/3 wasn’t something to be proud about as a manufacturer. If I remember rightly there were only somewhere just over eighty built and it was pretty bad. The Fleetline was a much better proposition.
Andrew
27/02/11 – 17:06
The 66 service, and also the 67 Sheffield – Barnsley -Leeds, disappeared in April 1971 as part of an NBC reorganisation, and Sheffield buses then no longer ran north of Barnsley. Sheffield JOC and “Tracky” were joint operators on both routes, with Yorkshire Woollen on the 66 and West Riding on the 67. Part of the 66 route became “Tracky” service 109 Barnsley – Dewsbury.
Geoff Kerr
27/02/11 – 21:00
Strictly speaking, Sheffield JOC disappeared in 1970, with the formation of NBC – which is why Yorkshire Woollen received the C Fleet buses (including PD2/ECW and PDR1/Weymann). Sheffield did continue going north of Barnsley, but on the White Rose Express which eventually faded until the pre-Stagecoach private Yorkshire Traction axed it within the last ten years. Tracky used ex-Lincoln double deck coaches in latter days.
David Oldfield
02/03/11
Yes, I should have written “and Sheffield Corporation buses (which took over the JOC share of the 65/66/67 after its winding up in 1970) no longer ran north of Barnsley on a local stopping service.” Interestingly, I’ve just come across a photograph taken in 1967 of a Sheffield Corporation Atlantean at Bradford working the 66. This was either working off mileage accumulated on Corporation A routes by C fleet buses or maybe the depot had nothing else to send out.
Geoff Kerr
03/03/11 – 08:50
Geoff, your 1967 Atlantean could have been doing both. I have a picture of PDR2/1/Park Royal 193 (WWB 193G) on a demonstration loan to someone on service 26 to Bradshaw. (I’m sure someone will tell me where.)
David Oldfield
24/08/11 – 08:26
David, Service 26 to Bradshaw – that will be Halifax. Halifax Corporation/JOC operated Fleetlines but had no Atlanteans – presumably they wanted to try one.
Geoff Kerr
10/12/11 – 12:27
Just a comment regarding the Daimler Fleetline vehicles which were operated by “Tracky” I drove these vehicles during my time at “Tracky” and hated them, the brakes were very poor with absolutely no pedal “Feel”, quite often the pedal was “on the floor” and the vehicle was just stopping in it`s own time, very disconcerting I can tell you. The steering was vague, and engine performance left a lot to be desired, this just about summed up the general standard of Daimler vehicles.
David Adshead
11/12/11 – 06:45
David, interesting perspective. I would personally agree with you about the Fleetline but it says a lot about the PRD1 Atlantean that people moved away from it in droves towards the Fleetline – especially “Leyland” companies like Tracky.
David Oldfield
11/12/11 – 06:47
If the YTC Fleetlines suffered from poor engine performance, then somebody in the engineering department must have been tinkering with the Gardner engine speed governors to reduce the output in an attempt to lift the mpg. The 1968 batch had 6LXB engines running up to 1850 rpm, but the 6LX motors installed in the earlier Yorkshire Woollen District Fleetlines were certainly not lacking in power if set correctly, even if the modest 1700 rpm governed speed did somewhat limit maximum road performance.
Roger Cox
15/01/17 – 07:18
Just re-visiting this site and read the comment from David Oldfield and Roger Cox regarding the Daimler Fleetlines, it seems pretty obvious to me that they never drove these horrible buses, one in particular (Fleet No 663) was absolutely dire, right from new it had no power, booked off repeatedly for P**S poor performance, it never got any better, on one journey to Highburton near Huddersfield I had to ask the passengers to get off and wait until I came back down the hill because the horrible thing could not manage the hill with 20 or so passengers on board, after serious complaining the company sorted it, they banned the vehicle from further use on that route.
David Adshead
15/01/17 – 11:01
Its amazing how individual drivers have opinions oceans apart on various bus models. For my money, with considerable experience, the Fleetline (Daimler or later Leyland) was the finest of the first generation of rear engined buses – I always loved them, and can’t remember ever driving a really “duff” one.
Chris Youhill
15/01/17 – 11:15
David A, having read your comments on the Fleetline, I must put myself firmly in the camp of David O, and Roger. Before you ask, yes, I have driven Fleetlines a mile or several thousand, and for me they were a far superior vehicle to the PDR1/1 Atlantean. Between 1967 & 1975, I was a driver at NGT Percy Main depot, and we had both Atlanteans and Fleetlines. I left Percy Main in 1975, and I have limited experience of later Atlanteans.
Percy Main Atlantean and Fleetline up to 1968: PDR1/1 Atlantean 1960: CFT 636/644 – 236/244 Weymann DFT 245/249 – 245/249 Roe 1962: FFT 754/761 – 254/261 Roe CRG6LX Fleetline 1963: HFT 366/375 – 266/275 Weymann 1964 JFT 276/280 – 276/280 Weymann 1965 AFT 783/789C – 283/289 Alexander 1967 DFT 290/292E – 290 292 Alexander 1968 EFT 693/702F – 293/302 Alexander
If as you say, your Fleetlines wouldn”t pull, then it must have been the way they were set up. The ones we had didn”t have the top speed of an Atlantean, but even with a full load they were more than capable of keeping pace with the traffic, and as for hill climbing, they could literally leave an Atlantean for dead. The standard of maintenance at P/M was extremely high, nevertheless, breakdowns with an Atlantean were not uncommon, and I lost count of the number of times one packed up on me. I contrast, I can count on one hand with fingers to spare, the amount of time I was let down by a Fleetline. Unfortunately, when NBC came into being, and the lunatics had taken control of the asylum, despite the vehement protests of NGT, most of our Fleetlines were transferred to East Yorkshire Motor Services.
Ronnie Hoye
15/01/17 – 14:55
Yorkshire Tracky PD’s out of Doncaster could, I suggest, tell the same tale as David A’s Fleetlines: they felt sadly underpowered and unlike Doncaster CVD’s, never got a move on: the drivers seemed reluctant to change down- probably because they daren’t drop the revs, so the most modest railway “flyover” hill turned into “can a do it”? What was that about messing with the governors?
Joe
15/01/17 – 16:12
I found this particular thread this morning. My student days were in Birmingham in the mid to late sixties, so after the comparative trials between the Fleetlines and the Atlanteans. It can’t have been just coincidence that they bought Fleetlines and very little else thereafter.
Pete Davies
17/01/17 – 06:56
I suspect decisions to buy Fleetlines rather than Atlanteans were much more often influenced by the availability of Gardner (high torque at low speed and fuel frugal) engines!
Geoff Pullin
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
17/12/18 – 07:18
All the Atlanteans and Daimlers were fitted with a Semi Automatic gearbox by Self Changing Gears Co Ltd Coventry, they had nothing to do with Daimler other than supplying the gearbox, British Leyland bought the rights to this gearbox and fitted it to all the later BL buses as standard.
David
18/12/18 – 07:14
I assume David’s comment is in response to David Oldfield’s statement that the PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans had a Daimler gearbox. When the PDR1/2 first appeared, no less an authority than Alan Townsin wrote: “The gearbox is a Daimler direct selection epicyclic unit, as fitted to the Fleetline, with concentric drive.” (British Double Deckers Since 1942, published 1965) A later article in Commercial Motor magazine, describing the problems Nottingham Corporation had with their PDR1/2 Atlanteans, says: “This model, since dropped by Leyland, employed Daimler epicyclic gearboxes in place of the usual SelfChanging Gears epicyclic box, featuring an output drive on the same side as the input drive of the gearbox and thus facilitating the lower axle installation. Read more at //archive.commercialmotor.com/
Photograph by unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
With – Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1963 Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 Alexander H44/34F
This is shot of George Square Halifax where quite a few buses started there journey out of town rather than using the bus station. So here we have a Leyland Atlantean on loan as a demonstrator to Halifax Corporation it is actually from Glasgow Corporation and was number LA91 in their fleet and fairly typical to most buses in Scotland it had an Alexander body. Behind are two Leyland Titans and just turning into the square is an Hebble single decker probably on route to Rochdale as they also used the square as a pick up point. After it had finished being a demonstrator in 1965 it was sold to J Fishwick & Sons at Leyland Lancashire and became their fleet number 34.
25/07/14 – 05:36
Glasgow Corporation Transport was asked by Leyland Motors to retain LA 91 as a demonstrator and it was only in the fleet for a few months. It was “replaced” by an additional Atlantean tagged on to the next order, Glasgow Corporation Transport and it’s successors went on to operate nearly 1500 Atlanteans.
Stuart Little
11/07/18 – 07:14
I remember LA91 coming to Halifax on demonstration, it was painted in a yellow slightly beige livery with either an ivory or cream relief. It also visited Hebble, Huddersfield & Bradford in my area. Halifax also had a Wallasey Corporation Atlantean on loan for a bit, JHF 823 seems to ring a bell. A Halifax PD3 from the TCP registered was loaned to Wallasey in exchange.
Andrew Spriggs
17/07/18 – 06:34
Sorry for saying the reg of the Wallasey Atlantean which came on loan to Halifax was JHF 823, upon checking my photos it was in fact JHF 822, my only defence was that it was over fifty years ago! The Halifax PD3 which went to Wallasey in exchange was TCP 52.
Tyneside Omnibus Company 1965 Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 Alexander H43/32F
Tyneside Omnibus Company were a subsidiary of Northern General, they may of run a more local service than the very large area that Northern General did. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment. Typical of most rear engined buses of this era it had the “bustle” look at the rear, it was a year or two later before the enclosed look at the rear appeared on the scene.
I remember these buses when I was a kid in the 60’s early 70’s. Tyneside ran the service from North Shields to Newcastle via Wallsend. Their depot was based in Wallsend and they never used service numbers – only the destination. People on North Tyneside simply called it “the green bus” service. They later adopted the service number 13 and ran it jointly from Wallsend with the Tyne Wear PTE. It later became service 313.
Bryan Scott
We used to get the 313 across from the Railway pub (now the Bogey Chain) outside Bridon ropeworks (Haggies) back in the early/mid 70’s.
RB
The Tyneside bus service travelled from North Shields to Newcastle via Howden and Willington Quay, through Wallsend, Walker, Byker, it’s terminus in Newcastle was beside the BBC Broadcasting House premises.
Allan Long
I recall seeing Tyneside Leyland bodied PD 2/12s waiting at the North Shields terminus at the top of Borough Bank. They always looked purposeful and turned out immaculately.
Gerald Walker
The Tyneside Omnibus Company had originated as a tram operator and in the 70s and 80s the drivers were still members of the tram driver’s union and not the TGWU. They operated only one or two routes between North Shields and Newcastle, where the terminus was in Croft Street, in front of the BBC offices. I don’t know if Croft Street still exists; if not it was almost diagonally opposite to the Laing Art Gallery. It was a small but very profitable depot, and the buses were generally very well maintained, which was not always the case with its Northern General Transport stable-mate, Tynemouth and District Transport. There was a friendly rivalry between the Tyneside and Tynemouth drivers who shared a canteen just off Wallsend High Street.
Tom Graham
06/05/11 – 06:54
This was the bus I used to go back and forward to school on, St Aidans It would often struggle up Rose bank with a full load of school kids on it
Mark Nugent
15/05/11 – 06:45
Croft Street still exists. The bus stop was by “Boydell’s” toy & Model Shop. I spent many a journey from North Shields to Newcastle on this Companies Buses. If memory serves me well there was a “German Barbers” by the terminus on Borough Road. I also used them when I used to work at Willington Quay.
Stew Smith
17/05/11 – 11:15
Ah – that would be Herr Cutt!
Stephen Ford
07/06/11 – 09:32
Tyneside Buses always had brown leather seats unlike the Moquette used on Tynemouth Buses. There was a conductress who worked for years on the route who always wore a man’s uniform cap. Before moving to Hadrian Road the depot was on Neptune Bank in Wallsend.Repaints were usually carried out at Tynemouth’s Cullercoats Paint Depot in John Street. I also remember that the Fleet-names were not of the usual gold and underlined style. Instead TYNESIDE was in white block capitals which together with there being no route number display gave quite an independent company look to the fleet.
Brian
20/07/11 – 05:50
I believe that the company were known as Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads and one of their services was to run trams from Wallsend to Gosforth Park Racecourse. They may have run from Tynemouth but this was all before my time. The route ran what was then cross country, I think through Biggse’s Main, somewhere near Tyneview Park, through West Moor and into the east side of Gosforth Park. I understand that this route was taken to avoid crossing the then Newcastle City boundary where there was possibly a monopoly operated by the city council. Parts of the tramway can still be found today. When I was young, in the 1940’s, they only had one route, that from Croft Street, Newcastle to Borough Road, North Shields, every ten minutes. This was run by buses but the original tramroads name was still printed on their tickets. The service was well known for its exceptional punctuality. It was always said that you could set your watch by the green bus service. The photograph above shows the bus waiting at Croft Street, Newcastle, outside the BBC studio (old maternity hospital). This building still exists although it is just out of this picture, to the right.
mked
10/08/11 – 13:49
Used the ‘Green Bus’ regular from North Shields to Howden where my Auntie lived. No numbers, just the destination. Terminus at North Shields on Borough Road did have a barbers next to it and yes he was a German. We referred to it as ‘Herr Cut’ Also spent many hours at Tynemouth’s Percy Main Depot as my grandmother worked in the canteen there. Used to go out with the crews and went all over the area for free. Great days.
Ronnie Vincent
23/12/11 – 12:19
Northern’s Percy Main depot ‘Tynemouth and Wakefields’ had several routes that criss crossed Tyneside’s route, this didn’t cause any problems because our buses were in Northern’s maroon livery and displayed route numbers, and everyone only ever called Tyneside ‘The Green Bus’ however, during the summer months we often needed extra vehicles to run duplicates on the coastal routes. If they were Northern red or Sunderland District blue they could be used anywhere, but if ‘as often happened’ they were Tyneside buses, they had to be kept well away from Wallsend or Howdon ‘Howden is in Yorkshire’ otherwise all hell would break loose when regular ‘Green Bus’ passengers discovered they’d boarded the wrong bus.
Ronnie Hoye
24/12/11 – 06:49
P.S. to my previous comments about Tyneside’s buses. Most of the Northern group used ‘Setright’ ticket machines, but Tyneside had the multi coloured pre printed type used by Newcastle Transport. I don’t know the reason but it may go back to the trams, as I believe that from Wallsend boundary to Newcastle City Centre, Tyneside’s trams ran on Newcastle Corporations tracks. Does anyone know?
Ronnie Hoye
23/02/12 – 17:42
Further to Ronnie’s last query, Tyneside trams did run on Corporation tracks between Wallsend Boundary and Stanhope Street in Newcastle; Stanhope Street was just off Westgate Road and not far from Wingrove tram (and later trolleybus) depot. Tyneside motormen received additional pay when operating over Corporation metals but their cars carried Corporation conductors on this section and all revenue (except for a mileage allowance of 2d per mile operated!) went to the Corporation. When first constructed the track at Wallsend Boundary was continuous but the overhead wasn’t and this had to be connected when through running was eventually agreed. With regard to Brian’s comments, Tyneside cars didn’t run to Tynemouth (and on to Whitley Bay with dreams of extending further) but through running was impossible as Tynemouth’s trams ran on a 3’6″ gauge whereas Tyneside used standard gauge. There was, however, a very short section of interlaced track close to the North Shields termini which, I believe, was the only such example in the British Isles. The Gosforth Park route ran via Bigges Main, across Benton Road, in between what is now the Ministry (DWP) at Longbenton and what is now the Freeman Hospital), South Gosforth and the Great North Road although Tyneside did have running powers over Corporation metals on the route Brian mentions but these powers were only exercised for a short time and were used only by excursion cars in one direction only. I don’t think Tyneside buses ever operated to Gosforth Park: in my lifetime, certainly, their Gosforth route, which operated only at times convenient for shifts in the shipyards, terminated in Rothwell Road which is behind Gosforth High Street and on the former route of the tramway. Sometime after the opening of the (first) Tyne Tunnel a peak hours only service was introduced between Wallsend and Jarrow. As Ronnie says most of the Northern Group companies used Setright Speed machines after 1956 when they replaced Bellgraphics (as we always knew them!) but Tyneside and Gateshead and District continued with Ultimates; Gateshead’s, however, were the more common 5 barrel type (as were the Corporation’s) but Tyneside’s were 6 barrel models. I’m not sure, but I would have thought that the most likely reason that those subsidiaries used Ultimates was the speed of ticket issue: Ultimates were much quicker to use (once the combinations for higher value fares had been memorised) and most of Gateshead’s routes were, like Tyneside’s Riverside route, very busy. The reason for Tyneside using 6 barrel machines may have been simply in order to reduce the necessity to issue combinations or double-issue tickets on a particularly busy service. As an aside (and I apologise for digressing), technically another Northern subsidiary also used Ultimates. The C&E Bus Company (named after Messrs Colpitts and Ellwood) were taken over by the Venture company in 1951 (almost 20 years before Venture sold out to Northern) although the name was retained; after the takeover and for the remainder of their separate existence, Venture operated the former C&E services “on hire to the C&E Bus Company” and Northern also retained the name as a non-operating company after the acquisition of Venture. At one time C&E used Ultimates and I well remember that their surplus rolls were offered for sale at the Venture office in Marborough Crescent Bus Station during the early 1950s.
Alan Hall
11/03/12 – 07:41
So pleased I’ve seen this, beginning to think I’d imagined the green bus. My mother used to get this if she’d missed the Tynemouth or Whitley Bay bus from the Haymarket. We had to run down Northumberland St, and hurry past people, to try and catch it. I liked to look out for ‘Simpson’s Hotel’ the men’s hostel on Buddle St, Wallsend. There were always men leaning against the wall outside and I tried to see inside the bedrooms from the top deck of the bus. My mam used to tell me not to stare and I felt sorry for the men not having a home. I can vaguely remember walking from Borough Road, it seemed a long way as we had to catch the bus to Marden from Saville St, opposite the old library. There was a toy shop there and I would look in the window until the bus came. Happy memories.
Lorna
11/03/12 – 15:45
I’d be curious to know who posted the “Herr Kutt” comment, as this was always a mildly derogatory term used by a very good old friend, who has as yet not owned up. “Krim” is the German for the Crimea, where they’d be speaking Russian, Ukranian, or Crimean-Tartar, none of which belong to my repertoire, but “Krimsekt” (i.e. Crimean sparkly, is much drunk in the German-speaking world, and I’ve always been partial to a glass of bubbly, so we’ll let it pass. I no longer have need of hair cream.
Tom Graham
25/10/12 – 11:58
Yes, what memories of waiting for the NEW Green buses coming along Howdon Road to pick us up at the end of Bridge Road South to take us to the Pedestrian Tunnel to walk through to Jarrow and Hebburn. Sadly the tunnel is now a shadow of it’s former self, tiles missing and escalators all dirty but those great days are now gone !!!
James Lawson
01/02/13 – 08:40
Re the comment from Stew Smith (15/05/11 – 06:45) above – Rudy Schiber was the barber.
John Slater
17/04/13 – 10:13
Northern General ran the 1st RED Atlanteans from their depot in South Shields and because of the overhang they continually demolished roundabouts until the drivers got the hang of them & stopped turning to early. Also the 1st ones were prone to losing their gearbox fluid all over the road. Incidentally is there a thread on South Shields Corporation Bus’s? which included both diesel and trolley.
Jon
Not yet Jon but if you have a photo and some copy you could start one.
07/07/13 – 14:02
My understanding is that some of the apparent eccentricities of the Tyneside company derived from it not being quite fully owned by Northern until the 1960s. Northern had an interest in the Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Co from 1913, and a controlling interest from 1936, but it only became a limited company when Northern gained full control and could now change the name to Tyneside Omnibus in the early 1960s. This happened after the construction of the new depot in Hadrian Road, and I can remember the odd sounding local newspaper reports “New depot for Tyneside Tramways” – which hadn’t run a tram since 1930! I think had Northern had full control earlier Tyneside would have been amalgamated with the wholly-controlled Tynemouth company.
Percy Trimmer
19/10/13 – 08:10
John – the German barber was Rudi Sieber. He was a friend of my dad’s (no idea how they met but I know they used to go out shooting together at one time) and I remember being taken to the shop as a small boy to get my hair cut. I was told that he had served in the Luftwaffe during the Second World War and he reckoned to have been in Russia – which may or may not have been true, as he was a ‘larger than life’ character!
Patrick Ray
08/06/14 – 07:33
Willington Quay was well served by the green buses. The first I remember (about 1949) were Petrol Engined, with registrations JR8618 to JR8626. Bus numbers 18 to 26. From the timetable Tyneside needed 8 buses on the road. I think they always had 9, with one off the road for maintenance. This fleet of JRs was replaced by Leyland Diesels about 1950. BTY 167 to BTY 170 and CTY 331 to CTY 333; bus numbers 27 to 33. (Some years later 31 to 33 were operated by “Tynemouth” and all painted in Tynemouth Red, operating the Number 9 Route from the Tyne Tunnel to Culercoats). Next for Tyneside there were 4 buses with posh interiors again Leyland diesels with numbers from 34 to 38, but can’t remember the registrations. (Maybe ENL). After that Tyneside had a complete new set of Leylands; 39 to 47; again the registrations escape me. This was around the mid-fifties. One of this fleet embedded itself in Sammy Hendersons Sweet Shop in Borough Road Willington Quay one Sunday night. My mum got me out of bed to go and see it. I don’t think anyone was hurt, but the bus (42) was off the road for about 6 months. I then left Willington Quay and lost touch with their fleet. I think the next two buses they had were Leyland Backloading 30 footers; 49 and 50.
Rob from Willington Quay
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/08/14 – 09:36
Patrick Ray – Rudi Sieber was my Sister’s Father, her name is Helga. I know very little about him, my Mother Grace Victoria Baker was married to him before she married my Father John Frizzell. She worked on the Northern Buses for years. If you wouldn’t mind any insight into what he was like would be wonderful.
Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Bolton Corporation 1965 Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 East Lancs H45/33F
Here we have two Bolton Corporation Leyland Atlanteans separated by only eleven registration and fleet number but they are both bodied by a different body builder. The one on the left was by East Lancs built in Blackburn Lancashire which is not many miles away from Bolton, the one on the right by MCW (Metro Cammell & Weymann) a Birmingham based body builder. All Atlanteans delivered to Bolton after this batch of 8 MCWs were all bodied by the local builder East Lancs,
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
The interesting thing about these Bolton vehicles is that the modern styling and colour scheme was the creation of the General Manager Ralph Bennett. He subsequently went to Manchester as GM, where he created the Mancunian, the first bus to be specifically built with OPO in mind, which revolutionised both Manchester’s buses and, arguably set the trend for the whole country. He then moved on to London Transport where he created the “Londoner” DM and DMS buses, though sadly LTE were far more timid than either Bolton or Manchester’s Transport Committees, and the result was pretty mediocre in comparison with his earlier work.
David Jones
Ralph Bennett was certainly responsible for the new Bolton livery, and as it first appeared on this style of Atlantean, he is generally credited with that as well. But in fact the design of the East Lancs body was a straight copy of the Metro-Cammell one apart from having slightly bigger windows, and the Metro-Cammell one had already appeared at Liverpool several months earlier, presenting a very different appearance in their livery. I have often wondered who was really responsible for that Liverpool design. The managements of municipal fleets always had good relations with each other, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised at some sort of collaboration. I very much doubt that it was MCW.
Peter Williamson
28/08/11 – 12:19
I am wondering if Bolton Corporation Atlantean fleet number 192 is still around it was the first Atlantean bus to come on the road in 1963 and I drove it on the first day it came into service on the Bolton – Bury 52 Route we went from Thynne St in those days it had a automatic gearbox but could be driven manually through the gears number 4 slot on the selector box being the auto but was disconnected later and reverted to manual early problems were the fuel lift pump and in fact broke down on our last trip which was to Stopes Little Lever
Frank Ryle
28/08/11 – 15:50
Most interesting Frank – we had a batch of twenty new Atlanteans (406 – 425) at Leeds City Transport in 1970, and they had very smooth automatic gearboxes for that era – many systems at that time were diabolical and, in cases, downright dangerous but I really liked these twenty. Were yours the same in that if you selected 4th position at a standstill the bus would move away in second gear and then change up very smoothly. You had to select first gear when required in the normal “1” position on the “H”.
Chris Youhill
29/08/11 – 07:56
Central Area and Green Country Area Routemaster buses (as opposed to Green Line coaches) were the same. They were fully automatic when 4 was selected and started in second from rest. They had full control of gears in semi-automatic mode using all the gates – including 1st. Anyone who remembers original London operation might remember hill starts in 1st – but then shifting straight to 4 for automatic operation thereafter. When I was driving RMs for Reading Mainline in the ’90s, we were told to drive in semi-auto mode rather than in fully automatic. [At that age some could cope with auto but others couldn’t.] The preserved RML that I drive still has fully auto capability but I prefer to drive it semi-auto to ensure a smooth drive – for which I am well known. Interesting enough, the Alder Valley Bristol VRTs of the late 70s had a slightly different control – which I seem to recollect went over to some subsequent Leyland Olympians. They were fully automatic but always started in 1st – but the take up was harsh and brisk, meaning even the best of drivers could end up catapulting old ladies on to the back seat. They also had a very strange three gate control – Reverse, Forward and change down (after which you went back to Forward, ie auto).
David Oldfield
30/08/11 – 08:12
yes Chris it was the same as you say in auto mode pull away in second but the change wasn’t as smooth and a bit jerky as I said it was decided to disconnect the auto and just have manual on the subject of gearboxes in early sixties BOLTON still had some Crossleys and Leyland PD ones which had a crash box double de clutch and hope you matched up the revs otherwise you had no chance of changing up or down although they were fitted with a clutch stop which put a brake in the gearbox as they were at the end of their life it was hit and miss if they worked or not also a small number of front loading Daimlers with preselect boxes in first you could move the selector to second but it wouldn’t change until you pressed the clutch pedal which wasn’t a clutch pedal as such but a decompression pedal if you stabbed it quick the change was reasonable provided you match up the revs and road speed otherwise it would snatch fiercely
Frank Ryle
30/08/11 – 15:25
Interesting information again Frank and perhaps by 1970 that particular automatic system had been improved, because the twenty buses that I mentioned were impeccably behaved in auto or manual mode and admittedly they were new when I drove them. When with the famous independent operator Samuel Ledgard I drove many Leyland PD1s and PD2s. I passed my PSV test on a wonderful PD1, JUM 378 of 1946, and although I use the term “favourite” with care I think I must say that they are one of the most appealing and totally predictable models for me – the Ledgard fitters certainly kept the clutch stops in fine order even on buses twenty years old. The spring operated gear change on the Daimlers had to be treated with great respect if you wanted to avoid a trip to A & E with an ankle injury. Any wear on the selector linkages or failure to depress the gear change pedal positively and fully would result in the pedal flying out to twice the normal length with tremendous force – usually it could be restored by applying both feet to the pedal and pressing the shoulders against the cab rear window – Lord knows what the passengers must have thought !! Happy days, and the present generation of “fast men” think they have it hard with their super fully automatic buses and incredibly powerful engines – but no character or challenge – I wouldn’t have missed my early days for anything and I can still happily remember dozens, or many more, of individual vehicles and their peculiarities.
Chris Youhill
30/08/11 – 19:24
Chris, how I empathise with your sentiments on some of the present day crop of bus drivers. Power steering, auto gearboxes, powerful brakes, vehicle power to weight ratios that were undreamed of in our time…..! How would they cope with, say, a manual PD3 with synchro on the top two gears only. Mind you, driving a bus on the roads of today, having to cope with the stupid, suicidal, selfish lunacies of the cretinous Clarkson clone brigade that now infests our highways, is a far cry from those happier times of yore. I gave up bus driving finally five and a half years ago and wouldn’t want to go back to it except for classic vehicle jaunts. Also, as you say, these present day monsters of the bus fleets have about as much individual character as the wallpaper pattern in a Chinese restaurant. And as for some of these “modern” liveries, words fail me (and many will testify that this is an extreme rarity!). I. too, remember (painfully) those Daimler preselectors. At Halifax, it was accepted practice not to warn the novice drivers about the endearing characteristics of the Daimler box. When it happened to me, the pedal came out half a mile (or so it seemed) giving me a hefty smack on the knee against the steering wheel in the process. I thought that I had broken the thing. The pedal was solid, and the bus remained obstinately in neutral. In sheer desperation, I swung round in the seat, and hoofed the pedal hard with both feet, finding, to my relief, that it went back to its proper place and behaved itself again. One could always pick out other sufferers with “Daimler knee” – they could be seen limping about the depot in a fair imitation of Laurence Olivier in Richard III.
Roger Cox
22/01/12 – 06:54
Frank 185 was the first Atlantean on the road for Bolton as I recall. And do you further remember an Atlantean was one of the stars of the film The Family Way starring Hayley Mills and Hywell Bennett
Tony
20/03/12 – 07:16
How I agree with Chris and Roger regarding modern vehicles and drivers, I always think with todays buses it is a case of point and steer and then hit the brakes almost as hard this combined with built in retarders and fully automatic gearboxes that nearly always change into low gear just as the bus stops make for an unpleasant ride. I know traffic conditions today demand some easing of the drivers lot but the semi-automatic systems of not so long ago were very easy to use and left the driver in control and able to give a smooth ride, however the easy use also meant easy abuse if a driver couldn’t be bothered but at least you had a choice. I too learnt to drive on a PD1 JK 9113 of Eastbourne Corporation in 1962 and I am glad that I was able to drive the characterful and interesting buses around at that time and not the mainly ugly soulless modern types at least I could give my passengers a comfortable ride at any time.
Diesel Dave
20/03/12 – 11:20
The seventies film Spring and Port Wine starring James Mason was also filmed in the Bolton area. Scenes on a bus were shot using the Leyland/Park Royal demonstrator KTD 551C. This bus later ran for Woods of Mirfield
Chris Hough
20/03/12 – 16:04
Right, Dave. You can often barely move in a “smooth modern bus” between stops because of the G-forces and sloping floors. You can only stand up and hang on! There is no need for stop/go driving like this: we can all do it, but not with passengers! In the good old days you had long smooth braking- because that’s all they would do- with sound effects: although engine-braking using a Daimler preselector could explore the rev range a bit…. PS Anyone found a recording of a CVD6?
Joe
21/03/12 – 07:20
I’m waiting for someone to come up with that CVD6 recording as well. If there are no takers, is anyone planning a visit to the next Lincoln event? Could be a possibility to capture the sounds of the ex-Colchester Roberts vehicle – preferably with some hill starts!
Stephen Ford
21/03/12 – 07:22
There is of course another factor to take into account, buses now don’t have conductors, and at one time it was a easier to just drive the bus properly rather than suffer a constant ear bashing from a conductor who found it hard to walk around the bus unless it was stationary.
Ronnie Hoye
23/03/12 – 06:35
Ronnie has a very valid point regarding smooth driving and conductors as I started my career on the buses as a conductor and you very quickly learnt to pick out the best drivers to work with and those you hated your weeks of bumps and bruises with. When I started driving I tried not to do the things I hated as a conductor this I think kept me honest and I hope comfortable for the next 41 years. I find this site the most enjoyable on the internet as it lets me ramble on to my hearts content about the good old days to like minded soul, long may you prosper.
Diesel Dave
10/04/12 – 06:28
Totally agree with the comments on modern buses. They just don’t register with me at all and I have no interest in them, whereas proper buses have a character and individuality of their own. I never worked on the buses but travelled on them thousands of times as a child in the 60s and a teenager in the 70s when I used them for school. I lived in Radcliffe, and my favourites were Bury Corporations PD3s with Weymann bodies. I remember them struggling up the very steep hill at the bottom of Stand Lane in Radcliffe on the way to Whitefield on the 65 with a full load and used to admire the way the drivers coped with these huge heavy looking buses. The PD2s always seemed a bit lighter and easier to handle, don’t know if this was true. My interest started to go in the 80s after the ex municipal buses had gone. I liked the Selnec/GMT Standard Atlanteans/Fleetlines as well, but after those I sort of lost interest and after deregulation I completely gave up
David Pomfret
10/04/12 – 11:33
Re Smooth driving. As with David above, I have never had any involvement with buses except as a passenger when young so reading that a lot of favourite vehicles were misery to drive is very fascinating. From my first driving lesson I was always told to imagine that I had an egg in a dish stuck to the bonnet and that I had to keep it from rolling out. Does anyone remember that Jackie Stewart the racing driver ran a promotion with Ford Motor Co, in 1973/4 whereby drivers were challenged to drive a Ford Cortina Mark III with a tennis ball in a dish held to the bonnet only by a woollen blanket? As regards bus driving, an old family friend, Lionel Coles who drove for Bristol Omnibus Company (often on the 88 to Radstock) was always very smooth but I also remember the gearbox crunches that so many K/KSW’s suffered in my school journey home on the number 1 to Cribbs Causeway when climbing the hill to Eagle Road, Brislington, Bristol. The fitters must have drained many ounces of iron filings!!
Richard Leaman
17/04/12 – 14:22
Southampton’s Atlanteans were of the East Lancs “Bolton” style, but without the fairing over the bustle. They used the Bolton style of livery, with the Manchester shade of red – Bill Lewis came to Southampton from Manchester. Strangely, he didn’t apply this lighter shade to the Arabs, Titans and Regents. When Blackpool started to buy Atlanteans, the Committee visited the East Lancs factory, where some were being built for Southampton, and adapted Southampton’s livery to have the extra stripe.
Pete Davies
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
04/01/16 – 06:21
Any owner can do what they like with a vehicle. And having owned a North Western Bristol L5G I know many of the problems. Initially I was anxious to have it in original cream roof livery and did so but red roof spray paint colours would be just as legitimate. It spent 5 of its 13 years in service like that. The important thing us to have records that show changes. CDB 206 is now in better condition then when I had it. Proper full length grab rails at entrance now. But the roof is all cream and no grey rectangle in the middle. Often forgotten. Does it natter? Not now, but we should comment for the records. The generations that come after us will have no memory at all. We owe it to them to keep accurate records.
