Bury Corporation 1965 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX East Lancs H43/31F
In 1965 when this shot was taken there was only two rear engined double deck vehicles the Daimler Fleetline and the Leyland Atlantean. The Fleetline had one big advantage over the early Atlanteans in that it had a flat central gangway downstairs and the step up from the ground to entrance floor level was only 1 foot. The advantage of the easy access and high seating capacity meant that the Fleetline became a very popular vehicle with municipal and company operators alike. The first Fleetlines had the Daimler CD6 8.6 litre six cylinder engine but has soon as it went into serious production it was supplied with the Gardner 6LX 10.45 litre engine as standard with an option of the Gardner 6LW 8.4 litre both were six cylinder diesels. The gearbox was of the four speed Daimatic direct selection epicyclic type and the braking system was air pressure. As with all Daimler vehicles the coding is fairly straight forward the “R” stands for rear engine and the “G” stands for the Gardner engine, I wish I knew what the “C” stood for as it precedes most Daimler codes “CWG” and “CVG” for example my guess is “Chassis” but if anybody knows better or has a good idea please please leave a comment.
I think the “C” could stand for “Coventry” It came from the dark recesses of my mind. What happened when the Fleetline moved from Coventry to Leyland? It ceased to be CRG/L and became FE. So unsubstantiated, but a reasonable guess – unless anyone else knows better. D Oldfield
I think the “C” could stand for “Commercial” As the company at the time was called Daimler Commercial Vehicles and traded separate to the passenger car business.
T J Haigh
The ‘C’ chassis prefix did stand for Commercial vehicle, as Daimler also made private cars. Sadly this tradition ended when Leyland in its infinite wisdom moved Daimler bus production to Leyland. These chassis were designated ‘FE’, in line with Leyland’s then practice of using the first and last letters of model names as chassis designations (eg: ON OlympiaN; TN TitaN; NL NationaL; LX LynX).
Brendan Smith
30/01/12 – 11:11
The debate goes on about how successful the RMF would have been had it gone into full scale production, but at Northern’s Percy Main depot we had both Atlanteans and Fleetlines, and for my money the Fleetline was a far superior vehicle, ‘perhaps that’s why it was killed off when Daimler became part of British Leyland’ All ours had the Gardner 6LW, the earlier ones were MCW bodied but my favourites were the later Alexander bodied vehicles, most of them were transferred to East Yorkshire when NBC came about.
Ronnie Hoye
28/09/12 – 07:49
This style of East Lancs body for rear engined double deckers only appeared on this batch for Bury and an almost contemporaneous batch of Fleetlines for Coventry. They were well proportioned vehicles as can be seen here
Phil Blinkhorn
28/09/12 – 14:13
…..and three batches of PDR1/2s for Sheffield with Neepsend bodies…..
David Oldfield
28/09/12 – 14:15
Phil, Warrington also had Fleetlines with this style of East Lancs bodywork Atlanteans to the same design but built in Sheffield by Neepsend were bought by the corporation. Both the Fleetlines and Atlanteans dated from 1965-1966. An example of the Warrington Fleetlines appears at this link.
Chris Hough
28/09/12 – 18:02
David/Chris, You are right about the Neepsend bodies for Sheffield and Warrington. I managed to eliminate part of my script after typing in the link to the Coventry photo and didn’t notice until I just read your replies. If you go back to my original post, it would have continued: “The photo shows Coventry 22 – but though the design is the same (in all but detail) the body is by Neepsend and is one of a batch where East Lancs produced 9 and Neepsend 13 and Coventry split delivery of chassis in a staggered way between the two plants (see Peter Gould’s list for Coventry 1966). Sheffield received vehicles of this design from Neepsend as well and, strangely, Warrington also received Neepsend produced vehicles. Is this a case of congestion at East Lancs or was this really designed to be built in Sheffield?”
Phil Blinkhorn
29/09/12 – 18:06
Can somebody clarify the relationship between East Lancs and Neepsend. Did East Lancs buy Neepsend to gain additional capacity? if so it seems to have been a bit of waste of time as – to my recollection – Neepsend didn’t last all that long as a body builder . . . which raises the question, what became of them? And what were Neepsend doing before they started assembling East Lancs bodies? – would general metalwork fabrication be a good guess?
Philip Rushworth
30/09/12 – 07:47
The entire share capital of East Lancashire Coachbuilders Ltd was bought by Cravens Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd of Sheffield in 1964. Cravens itself was a subsidiary of the John Brown group of Clydebank, though the founder, John Brown, was himself born in Sheffield in 1816. Although it had made tentative forays into the bus building business between the wars, Cravens was by then primarily a constructor of railway rolling stock. Because the East Lancs premises in Blackburn were of constricted size, Cravens set up a subsidiary in the Neepsend area of Sheffield to increase the productive capacity of the bus bodybuilding side of the business. Neepsend built bodies to East Lancs designs from 1964 before closing completely in 1968.
Roger Cox
30/09/12 – 07:48
There is a deal of confusion on a great number of sites regarding just who were Neepsend and what they did. It seems that the long established Sheffield firm of Cravens, which over the years produced trams, railway carriages and bus bodies bought East Lancs around 1960. They set up Neepsend on Penistone Rd, away from their main site, at about the same time initially, as I understand it, as an overflow site (some local forums say that some BRS “Noddy” vans were built there but these were all supposed to have been built by Star Bodies, the BRS in house builder). There are reports on some local Sheffield forums regarding a building collapse at the property damaging some vans in production.
Phil Blinkhorn
30/09/12 – 07:49
At the time both East Lancs and the former Craven plant in Sheffield were owned by John Brown engineering The company decided to use the Sheffield capacity to build bodies to East Lancs design.
Chris Hough
30/09/12 – 07:50
In 1964 the John Brown Engineering Group bought out the road vehicle body building part of Cravens – the railway part went to Metro-Cammell – and recommenced bus building in Sheffield at Neepsend as an overflow to their newly acquired East Lancs operation. I was a regular visitor on business to the Blackburn operation up to and beyond the fire. The whole place was cramped and would have horrified a modern health and safety inspector. If my memory is right there was an extension completed well before the fire which probably meant the demise of Neepsend, though the clutter remained.
Phil Blinkhorn
30/09/12 – 07:51
Further to my last comment Cravens actually bought a stake in East Lancs rather than the other way round in an effort to get back into bus building. This was achieved by a purchase of shares from the bank which was acting as executor of the will of one of the company founders. However the size of the factory and poor quality killed the project off by 1968.
Chris Hough
30/09/12 – 10:37
I have a hazy memory that the Neepsend factory was purpose built, because it had partly “glazed” doors on to Penistone Road through which the skeletons of buses could be seen. It always seemed a bit of a mystery why this was there, then.
Joe
18/01/18 – 05:25
I rode on LEN 101 ( Lenny ) many times when it was brand new at Bury, Ride like a bouncy castle , Drivers got sea sick & the cab was small & overheated being next to the engine, Plagued with mechanical faults, particularly the brakes, It was used sparingly & was on the Bury – Walmersley (37) run, so it wasn’t too far away when it broke down i’m told, A good ride downstairs, but not upstairs, We were told it was bought from the bus show, An untested prototype ?? Seems there were many variations of it,
Ian S
14/11/19 – 05:42
An ex Bury driver I used to know said that that Wulfrunian was the worst bus he ever drove in his 19 years on the buses, through Bury Corporation, Selnec and GMT. Others he didn’t like were two 36 foot East Lancs bodied Leyland Leopards which had been new to Bolton and were transferred to Bury after Selnec took over, 6054/5.
Hebble Motor Services 1966 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Northern Counties H43/31F
This was the only new rear engined double decker purchased by Hebble and originally numbered 351 in their feet. In 1970 it was renumbered 625 but in 1971 it passed to Halifax JOC as their 294 when they bought out the Hebble Stage Services. It fitted in well with the contemporary Halifax Fleetlines with similar bodies. When Halifax Corporation came under WYPTE control DJX 351D was renumbered 3294, it is during its PTE days that the destination equipment was updated. The photo was taken on its last day in service 8th February 1984 leaving Wainstalls on the cross town service to Causeway Foot.
Although the bus is interesting (albeit perhaps a bit modern for my generation) my attention was caught by the destination. Halifax was famous for running services way out of town to remote spots, but it has always amazed me that they had a service to Causeway Foot, especially in tramway days. Were there plans to build houses out there? Was there a long-lost mill which generated traffic? The Causeway Foot Inn still exists, but that’s about it.
Paul Haywood
Good shot Ian not only for the bus but the scenery behind it, now that’s the Pennines I remember, feeling a touch home sick now.
Re Pauls comment, if memory serves me correct at one time Halifax route 63 was Steep Lane (3 miles west of Sowerby Bridge) through town to Causeway Foot, which by the way was pronounced by locals as Causi Fooit. I also think route 64 Hubberton a neighbouring hamlet to Steep Lane ran through to Pavement Lane which was about two miles short of Causeway Foot but at least there was the Illingworth housing estate there. I think the Causeway Foot route was purely to go to the limit of the Halifax Boundary there could be another reason, we will no doubt find out if there is.
Spencer
What may surprise those who don’t know is that this was the location of Halifax’s solitary trolleybus route, from Wainstalls to Mount Tabor where it connected with the trams. About as unlikely a trolleybus route as you would find and I think the highest in the country – a distinction in more modern times claimed by Huddersfield for their Outlane terminus.
David Beilby
02/05/11 – 12:59
Just a snippet of info from my personal history. I started my apprenticeship at Gardner engines in Patricroft in late 1964, and when I started I worked on the engine build line with a senior guy, George Pheasey. The engines were built from a bare crankcase/crankshaft with blocks/heads separate and a trolley full of other parts. The Gardner 6LX in Hebble 351 was the first engine I built on the line on my own, probably in late 1965. The lead time for an engine build to it actually being part of a bodied bus was probably 6 months or so! I remember it well as it was the only one in the Hebble order which was marked on the customer build sheet. Bus engines always had the customers shown but truck engines didn’t. They were great engines, with tight tolerances and real craftsmanship for their time.
John Ashmore
07/05/11 – 18:36
Gardners were great engines indeed John, being built up to a standard rather than down to a price. The craftsmanship was apparent in the quality of the castings and other parts, the tight tolerances and attention to detail. I have very happy memories of fully overhauling Gardner 6LX/6HLX and 6LXB engines in the 70’s and 80’s at West Yorkshire’s Central Works, and derived a great deal of satisfaction in returning everything to original specification during assembly. Anything less would have felt like sacrilege. West Yorkshire replaced the Bristol AVW engine in one of its 1956 Lodekka LDs (DX48: RWY826) with a new Gardner 6LX unit in 1959, which managed to cover just over 500,000 miles before needing an overhaul. It had been partly stripped down at some point prior to this in order to monitor wear and tear, but was put back together and into DX48 again with only a few very minor parts needing replacement. (Albert Jackson, a fitter I worked with as an apprentice described the strip down as a ‘paraffin overhaul’). Even when the Lodekka was scrapped, its engine was removed by West Yorkshire and overhauled to live on in one of its Bristol VRTs! Gardner’s emphasis on weight-saving and keeping frictional losses to a minimum no doubt helped with their legendary fuel economy. Some companies recorded around 12 mpg from their Bristol FLF6Gs, and many RELH6G motorway coaches were said to have regularly achieved 12-15 mpg – figures that sadly can only be dreamed of with todays fuel hungry beasts!
Brendan Smith
08/05/11 – 10:21
I didn’t know Brendan that DX48 was Bristol engined when new – you learn summat new every day !! I believe though that DX 3 and DX 4 had Gardners from new but if you can confirm that please I’ll be obliged.
Chris Youhill
09/05/11 – 08:04
You are right regarding DX3 and DX4 Chris. They did have Gardner (6LW) engines from new. The 6LX that went into DX48 was one of the early LXs, as that engine had only been introduced in 1958. I can remember DX48 running in and out of Shipley when my family lived there between 1963-1966, and being intrigued by its somewhat gruff engine note compared to its siblings. It was only in later years I discovered that the LX was the reason. Apparently it enhanced DX48’s performance, but in its new guise the bus went through diffs at a fair rate at first. Whether the engine was fully rated initially (150 bhp) and later derated to a more modest output I do not know, but the diff situation apparently eased, so this may well have been the case. Whilst on the subject of engine notes, another vehicle to attract my attention in those heady days was DX83 (YWW 78), which regularly performed at one point on the Bradford – Ilkley 63 route. (I seem to think it was an Ilkley vehicle). Although outwardly it looked like an LD Lodekka, the engine sound was different – somehow sounding smoother and more powerful to my young ears. Again it was only after joining the company as an apprentice, I learned that, along with several other later LDs (KDX75-77 and DX78-81), DX83 was an early recipient of Bristol’s new BVW engine – the AVW then being phased out. It remained one of my childhood favourites, along with WY’s solitary front entrance Lodekka DX82 (YWW 77), which I remember did a stint on the Keighley – Leeds 31 route in the early ‘sixties. Wonderful times!
Brendan Smith
09/05/11 – 08:09
Hebble DJX 351D had a spell with Yorkshire Woollen at Heckmondwike where it was numbered 147. It passed to Calderdale Joint Omnibus Committee in 8/71. Incidentally two of Y.W.D 683-693 (JHD 324-334J) Daimler Fleetline/Alexander of 1971 were ordered for Hebble but by the time they were delivered the company were no more.
Philip Carlton
09/05/11 – 08:59
Thanks Brendan for more fascinating and well informed memories of “the good old days.” Incidentally the infamous DX 82 was a frequent performer on service 34 Leeds – Otley – Ilkley where, provided it turned up, it was the fastest thing in Wharfedale. I make that provision because I’m almost certain that for some reason its reliability record was abysmal – I wonder if it fared any better in the North East when it was banished to United – its rear entrance replacement in the exchange, 456 LHN, was definitely a fine machine fondly remembered.
Chris Youhill
15/05/11 – 06:41
Your comments regarding the original DX82 are interesting Chris – especially the one relating to its reliability record. Whether it was related to it being the prototype FSF Lodekka I don’t know. Maybe the design or tolerances of some of the modified parts involved might have caused problems if they had been handcrafted specially for it, perhaps. Nice to know it was a ‘flyer’ for all that though! Returning to things Hebble, this stirred up childhood memories of their buses plying between Bingley and Bradford (via Wilsden and Harden if memory serves correctly). They were a familiar sight parked in their ‘bus station’ on the waste ground next to The Myrtle cinema at the top of Main Street. I can still recall returning from grandma’s one dark night and seeing a Hebble AEC Regent V parked there displaying its illuminated advert panel for all to see. It certainly made an impact as you could see it for quite some distance.
Brendan Smith
15/05/11 – 17:47
Many thanks Brendan for another important and interesting fact of which I was unaware till now – that DX 82 was a prototype. I’m sure you’re right about the Hebble intermediate points between Bradford and Bingley – I never travelled on them, but I have a firm memory of seeing the destination blinds in Bradford set to “BINGLEY Harden Wilsden.”
Chris Youhill
16/05/11 – 09:07
Hebble’s 19 service ran exactly as you described, basically on a half-hour frequency.
David Beilby
16/05/11 – 09:09
Just a quick story about Hebble if I may. I work for West Yorks PTE and was speaking to a caller the other week who was complaining about the unreliable nature of the current 508 (Halifax-Leeds) service, which was basically the old Hebble route until their demise in 1971 or 1972. Her comment was along the lines of “it’s just not been the same since Hebble stopped running it”! She didn’t sound particularly old, so would have been pretty young when Hebble were actually running the route. But what made me smile was that, in their final years, didn’t Hebble have an atrocious reliability problem, meaning ageing second-hand vehicles were drafted in from all over the place? Or am I confusing them with another company?
Dave Towers
17/05/11 – 11:00
That makes me smile wryly Dave T – the travelling public do conjure up some astonishing theories in their minds. When I worked for the old family firm South Yorkshire Road Transport we were taken over in July 1994 by Caldaire Group (West Riding) and quite soon our familiar blue/white livery disappeared in favour of the various Corporate colours which followed. I clearly remember driving a full bus, green and cream “West Riding”,along the A19 out of Doncaster on the 411 to Pontefract and Leeds when an elderly Askern lady was loudly lecturing her fellow passengers on their error in expecting a reliable service from “this lot” – they were advised to follow her advice and wait for “one of them blue South Yorkshires as they are always on time and they’re better drivers too !!”
Chris Youhill
17/05/11 – 11:02
Hebble did run some elderly Titans from Yorkshire Traction but this was not the companies fault there was a long term weight restriction on a bridge in Halifax Like their fellow BET Group companies they also received some cast off from Sheffield when the JOC and C fleets were wound up in Hebbles case two relatively young AEC Regent Vs. As a result of the need for Hebble to have some lighter buses some of their AEC Regent Vs were loaned to YTC not a name one associates with Southall products!
Chris Hough
17/05/11 – 11:05
You’re not wrong. Geoffrey Hilditch has made comments on the state of Hebble vehicles at takeover. On the usage of old terms for services I used to call the Oldham-Huddersfield service the “Hanson” well into PTE days. Possibly as in Hanson days it didn’t have a route number. Another expression which I used for a long time without knowing why was “Tilleys”, used for North Western buses in the area. It’s only when I took a preserved North Western bus to a local event in 1980 and a long-standing family friend used the term that the penny suddenly dropped. It was short for Tilling-Stevens, a name emblazoned on the front of their early buses although the last left the area not long after the war!
David Beilby
29/05/11 – 07:02
The Hebble fleet was dire in the 1960’s they had a lot of 36′ Reliances which being B and C plates were scrapped at the take over due to total condition, hushed up were various problems like passengers falling through trap doors, wheels falling off and a host of mechanical defects, it was a total embarrassment to the NBC and in the end the Regional Director (Ian Patey) was responsible for putting it into the JOC because they already had the BR shareholding, also Walnut Street depot had a lot of restrictions to height which did not help.
Christopher
31/05/11 – 11:37
A few quick questions please:- a) Was the Hebble fleet garaged solely in the Walnut Street depot? b) What was the fleet strength in the company’s final years? c) What bus (not coach) routes were operated? d) Is the garage still in use, or has it been demolished?
Dave Towers
31/05/11 – 18:56
Hebble operated at least 3 routes out of Bradford. No 19. Chester St. to Bingley, via Wilsden and Harden. Bradford to Halifax (from Chester St.) Bingley-Cottingley-Duckworth Lane (Bradford). In the post war years, to about 1956, 19 was operated by the Regal 0662 Weymann single deckers, whilst the Duckworth Lane routes were mainly using the Roe batch. The Halifax routes utilised mainly the Regent III Roe buses which were, I believe, 0961, whereas the 1953 Willowbrook Regents were of the 7.7 litre variety according to my fleet list. As a boy, I also remember Hebble running a Bradford to Hipperholm service, which was later, I think, incorporated into the Halifax routes, which went via either Queensbury, or Shelf.
John Whitaker
01/06/11 – 07:57
Thanks John, but they also operated into Leeds, didn’t they? I’m fairly certain they did a Leeds-Burnley and maybe a Leeds-Rochdale. I remember a trip on a Regent around about 1970 or 1971 but I only went as far as Odsal. Maybe by this time the route had been shortened to Halifax.
Dave Towers
01/06/11 – 09:22
I agree about the 806 – 809 batch Chris, but when the “new” excitement wore off, and in quiet contemplation (!) I do not think the S series 4 bay design had quite the same balance as the classic final version of the first post war 5 bay style. I greeted the first DXs with absolute rapture, but looking back, I do not personally hold them in quite the same esteem as the HWW series. Something to do with my age perhaps!
John Whitaker
01/06/11 – 09:25
The routes from Leeds to Rochdale and Burnley lasted until the advent of Calderdale JOC I once caught a Halifax Weymann bodied Leopard all the way from Rochdale to Bramley in Leeds. The draught through the rubber edges of the door over the tops lives with me still! I think the routes were cut back after the advent of the PTE in 1974. The Leeds Halifax service now acts as a local between Farsley and Leeds leaving the main road at Pudsey to negotiate a housing estate and the constant traffic of Kirkstall Road. After 2 years of this First have introduced an express peak hour service the X8 which follows the old route The choice of the number 8 is appropriate as this was the old Hebble service number!
Chris Hough
01/06/11 – 10:22
Quite right Dave, routes 15 and 28 ran from King Street Leeds, stand adjacent to the Samuel Ledgard routes to Horsforth and Ilkley (via Guiseley), to Burnley and Rochdale. The six vehicle scene in King Street at 5.20 pm on weekdays was an absolute joy to behold. The 5.20 pm Hebble departure with duplicate, plus no less than four SL vehicles for the 5.30pm commuter rush – one Rawdon duplicate, one Guiseley duplicate, one Ilkley duplicate, and the Ilkley service bus last to depart. All would be full for part or most of their journeys !!
Chris Youhill
13/03/12 – 06:25
My school was in Halifax near Boothtown and I lived in Northowram. Hebble were ALWAYS first choice, they got you home five minutes faster than Halifax Corp!. Only in the later years did the maintenance get cut back, I was in the bus station when a Regent V arrived to be greeted by an engineering inspector. He had a look around and took it out of service. The queue had to wait for another to come from Walnut St! (MCW bodywork coming adrift) They also had a Bradford garage too. At least in the 60’s, there were as good as any other fleet. I think when BET decided to sell out, they just cut the budget to emergency work only. The weight restriction on North Bridge did not effect buses, they narrowed the road to get the traffic into the centre, that’s all.
John (tee)
15/03/12 – 09:30
The Bradford garage was at Park Lane and was shared with Yorkshire Woollen who had a few vehicles allocated. The latter did not have a permanent allocation as vehicles were changed over at Cleckheaton and Dewsbury for maintenance. After the demise of Hebble the garage was sold to Wallace Arnold. The last time I passed it had been demolished.
Philip Carlton
05/05/12 – 16:58
The comments about the reliability of Hebble in its last years is very true. Indeed, there used to be comments that the tow truck did more miles than the rest of the fleet!!! I remember, when my Dad was the village bobby at Northowram, how I used to sit on the police Station wall (opposite what was the Stocks Arms) watching the Hebbles line up at the side of the road. In the meantime the Corpy buses kept coming. Yes the end was sad, because the crews were more friendly, but, the outfit had by say 1969 seen better days. The route shown, was Wainstalls to Causeway Foot, which I could be wrong, but I think replaced the Steep Lane to Causeway Foot service, and incidentally was one of the last crew routes at Halifax, in, I think, early 1986.
Chris Ratcliffe
06/05/12 – 17:04
As Chris implies, Hebble was a complete shambles in its last years, and it must have been an absolute embarrassment to its employees. I recall walking home from college one dinnertime, probably in the Summer of 1969, and passing a broken down Hebble Reliance at the lower end of New Bank. Just after this their tow-wagon – a cut down 1946 Weymann-bodied Regal JX 9106 – rumbled up behind it, apparently to render assistance. I continued up the hill and saw as I approached Godley Bridge a Regent V apparently also deceased at the side of the road – the crew standing resignedly leaning against the side, having a smoke. “Not broken down, surely ?” I asked, to which the driver replied with a sigh “Aye lad, what’s new ?”. Just then the Regal appeared, having abandoned the Reliance for the time being. The despairing mechanic asked a couple of questions of the driver and had a quick look underneath, then said they’d just have to wait as they had to sort out a coach which had broken down on service at Buttershaw, and that it took priority as it was wanted for a Private Hire later on. Then off they went ! A former driver colleague of mine at Halifax who had been a mechanic at Hebble told me that virtually every day was like that – and often worse !
John Stringer
07/05/12 – 09:17
During my time at Yelloway in the early 1970s we often got Hebble drivers bringing their bus into our garage(which was very close to the Hebble terminus of their service 28 into Rochdale from Leeds and Halifax)for our mechanics to look at. I recall on one occasion we gave the driver one of our YDK registered Harrington Cavaliers as a replacement, which at the time were around 10 years old – the driver was ecstatic! There was a joke amongst our mechanics that the ‘temporary’ repair they had made some time earlier was still holding out many weeks later when the same bus re-visited perhaps with another yet different problem!
David Slater
07/05/12 – 09:18
John, And I thought Hanson’s were bad!
Eric Bawden
07/05/12 – 09:19
I hate to “turn the knife in the wound” so to speak and I hope I’m wrong here, but I do seem to remember a scandal of some kind where a Regent V overturned possibly descending to North Bridge. This was alleged, and I stress alleged, to have been caused by the front brakes being adjusted “off” instead of being “taken up” as the direction of adjustment differed from that on the Mark 3 Regents. I really hope that I’ve remembered this wrongly, or that it was a malicious rumour started by someone with a grudge. Can anyone remember the incident and, if so, comment on it please ??
Chris Youhill
07/05/12 – 19:17
The accident Chris Y. refers to was way back in 1958 when almost new 30ft Regent V 304 (JCP 672) ran away at the bottom of New Bank and turned over on the end of North Bridge. I remember my father coming home from work and telling me about seeing it on its side, and I still have the newspaper cutting. It was sent back to Metro-Cammell who rebuilt it, and on its return it was renumbered 306. Hence JCP 672 and 673 were ever after numbered 306 and 305 – apparently the wrong way round. This was however an unfortunate event in what were much better days for Hebble. The real decline only came in the late 1960’s.
Mr Anon
08/05/12 – 07:32
Typically an absolute fortune was spent doing up the Walnut Street garage only for it to close shortly afterwards.
Philip Carlton
08/05/12 – 07:34
My dad still to this day recalls the conversation he had with the driver when he left the phone box by our yard at Northowram Police Station, when the driver rang the bus in, and was told to bring it to town. My dad telling the story to me when I entered the driving school at Halifax in December 1979, and telling me , it is your licence, don’t land up in a similar position. It stuck, and there was many a time when I left Halifax buses at Leeds and Bradford, and came back with one of theirs.
Chris Ratcliffe
08/05/12 – 12:05
That, Philip, reminds me of Air Ministry workings – as soon as an RAF station had a fortune spent on it, we knew it was doomed and we’d have to move on a few months ahead!
Chris Hebbron
09/05/12 – 07:59
Railway stations too in the run-up to Beeching. It was as though there had to be some extraordinary deadweight expense thrown in to sink any defence of its financial viability.
Stephen Ford
09/05/12 – 09:34
In response to Paul Haywood in the first comment, Causi Fooit is probably one area of Halifax that has hardly changed since the first trams in September 1900. At the time, the reservoir at Ogden Water, approx quarter of a mile from the terminus, was a tourist attraction at the turn of the 20th century, and the service in the summer months certainly, by all accounts more than earned its keep. However, the winter months must have counterbalanced that, as nobody in their right mind would go there in winter, just to walk round a reservoir, would they? The nearest mill to the area would probably have been Bradshaw Mill, about half a mile from the Bradshaw short working terminus at Pavement Lane, which in turn is about a miles worth of green fields to Causi Fooit even today. There was also a small quarry at Ratten Clough, just after what was the Peat Pitts Inn, which the corporation built a line into for the granite setts for the roads. The lines were there into the 80’s, when what was to become Transperience at Bradford dug them up for posterity. However, a scrapman saw the rails, and they disappeared!!!Interestingly there was a none corpy route that passed through Causi Fooit for many years, but it was not operated by Hebble. Yorkshire Woollen District were the culprits with an Ossett to Keighley service.
Chris Ratcliffe
12/05/12 – 17:19
Hebble too ran through Causeway Foot – their hourly service 2 (which I think was also the service number of the Yorkshire Ossett-Keighley service) shared the road with the Yorkshire service between Halifax and Cullingworth, where it diverted to run to Bingley. Their Hebble terminus in Bingley – also served by 18 (Duckworth Lane) and 19 (Bradford via Wilsden) – was described as “Central Area”, in reality a rubble-strewn wasteland later occupied (I think) by the HQ of the now-defunct Bradford & Bingley Building Society. Service 2 required 3 omo single-deckers and was operated jointly by Halifax and Bradford depots (so there must have been some dead-running from the latter, unless the service was interworked with 18/19). Certainly in latter years between the peaks the service only operated between Bingley and Cullingworth, where connections were made with the Yorkshire service (which also ran hourly). On the formation of Calderdale JOC the Hebble service and the Halifax-Keighley section of the Yorkshire service became Calderdale services 1 and 2 respectively, each running hourly and co-ordinated over the Halifax-Cullingworth section. The Bingley service didn’t last long and was (within a year I think) abandoned, Calderdale then running Halifax-Keighley on an hourly basis. On Sunday mornings, when the Keighley/Bingley services didn’t run the Corporation service 25 (by then, Wainstalls-Halifax-Causeway Foot) was extended beyond the Borough boundary to Denholme (the next major settlement between Halifax and Cullingworth). This state of affairs continued until late PTE years, when the 25 became a peak-only operation. On deregulation the Halifax-Keighley service was linked with the Huddersfield-Halifax service as part of a combined Huddersfield-Halifax-Illingworth (just off the route to Causeway Foot, [30 min]))/Keighley (60 min)/Thornton-Bradford (60 min – branching off the Keighley service at Denholme Gate, between Causeway Foot and Denholme). Subsequent changes saw the abandonment of the Halifax-Thornton-Bradford service (a route I think Bradford Corporation considered introducing in the late 60s/early 70s) and the uncoupling of the Halifax-Huddersfield and Halifax-Illingworth sections. Now the Halifax-Keighley service has, I think, gone – although the Halifax-Bingley service came back a few years ago as a twice-a-day operation, presumably linked to a school contact (such were the timings). Although I was young – 6 when they disappeared – I remember the Hebble well, living in Queensbury on the route of service 17 (Halifax-Queensbury-Bradford) and having a great aunt who lived at . . . Causeway Foot. To this day I remember suddenly realising the Hebble were no more, and – outside Squires bakery in Brighouse (also long gone) asking my mother “where are the Hebble buses” and her reply “Halifax have taken over” . . . for the first time a bit of me died. For anybody who is interested in the latter-day operations of Hebble, Frank Woodworth (then GM) wrote an article for the Omnibus Society “A little of everything”. This compliments Norman Dean’s (a much earlier GM) Omnibus Society pamphlet “The Origins of Hebble”. I’ve got both, and would be happy to copy and send to anybody who wants to know more about this, in my opinion, fascinating operator. If I can drift off-topic for a bit, why did NBC give up on Hebble (intractable maintenance issues?), dismember North Western (I’ve read it was the complexities of its operations with the SELNEC constituents that made an NBC-PTE deal unachievable), and flog-off BMMOs most profitable parts (I’ve read that it was a desperate need to re-finance the company – but why?) – when no such deals were done with Northern/United and Tyneside PTE, West Yorkshire/Yorkshire/West Riding/Yorkshire Traction and West Yorkshire PTE, and Yorkshire Traction/East Midland and South Yorkshire PTE?
Philip Rushworth
13/05/12 – 08:29
Philip, it was the differing policies of the several PTEs. SELNEC and WMPTE insisted on full control and ownership of services within their area. WYPTE and Tyneside had a sort of franchise where, in effect, NBC were a contractor for the PTE either running in PTE colours (Tyneside) or with PTE logo (WYPTE). SYPTE ran a similar system but since there was very little overlap of operations even within the “county”, NBC buses simply had SYPTE signs in their windows.
David Oldfield
13/05/12 – 08:30
Oops! To correct my previous post, when Calderdale JOC took over the Halifax-Keighley/Bingley rights each route ran TWO-hourly – providing a combined sixty-minute service over the common Halifax-Cullingworth section.
Philip Rushworth
13/05/12 – 08:31
Hi Philip The Halifax Keighley service is still in existence Now numbered 502 it mainly consists of a single early morning journey from Halifax to Cullingworth and back There is no Saturday service but a roughly two hourly service on Sundays from 11 until 5
Chris Hough
13/05/12 – 08:32
What an interesting article by Mr Rushworth. I have been an enthusiast all my life and have always had a special interest in Y.W.D and Hebble as two generations and my self have worked for them.
Philip Carlton
13/05/12 – 18:38
A fascinating topic indeed and some really interesting and possibly forgotten aspects of PTE policies. In West Yorkshire there was much Company opposition to the PTE’s requirement that all NBC buses should be in “buttermilk and emerald.” I seem to recall that West Yorkshire Road Car Co held out for a long time before “doing as they were told” – in fact one Bristol VR was “in custody” at Harrogate Works for many months before being the first to be allowed out in “spring hues.”
Chris Youhill
13/05/12 – 18:39
West Yorkshire PTE also insisted that NBC operators buses carried PTE verona green and cream West Riding and YWD quickly repainted the fleet but West Yorkshire were much slower since repainting their buses limited their use to the PTE area and they had many services outside the boundary which needed red buses West Yorkshire PTE also insisted that NBC operators buses carried PTE verona green and cream West Riding and YWD quickly repainted the fleet but West Yorkshire were much slower since repainting their buses limited their use to the PTE area and they had many services outside the boundary which needed red buses.
Chris Hough
14/05/12 – 07:35
Your recollections about the PTE-liveried VR being held “in custody” are correct Chris. From what I remember, West Yorkshire ‘greened’ it, and the union ‘blacked’ it, as they felt that this move could be the start of an eventual takeover of large parts of WYRCC by the PTE. After much reassurance that this would not be the case, the VR later re-entered service in its new colours. West Yorkshire’s GM, Brian Horner, did his utmost to limit the number of company vehicles repainted verona green and buttermilk within the fleet, to the minimum required however. It was felt that because the company had an extensive network outside the PTE area, it would have been impractical (and inefficient) in having to repaint buses on transfer from depots within the PTE area to those outside it, and vice versa. The policy did somehow evoke memories of West Riding’s ‘red’ and ‘green’ fleets in times gone by, and I must admit to thinking that the VRTs actually looked quite attractive in the PTE livery (Shhh!).
Brendan Smith
14/05/12 – 07:37
I remember the first Yorkshire and West Yorkshire buses appearing in poppy red, and the arrival of Leyland-Nationals – it all seemed really thrusting and exciting to somebody so young. Then, some years later, when I was travelling from Queensbury to Hipperholme Grammar School by Yorkshire bus I used to beg for a BET-syle Leopard to be rostered, and longed for the days of individual liveries: once, and this must have been in the “first form” (Year 7 now – I’m a teacher and to me its still “first form”), an Albion Lowlander turned up on the school service – I took what I knew would be probably my only opportunity to ride a Lowlander and went past school into Brighouse, with the girls for the Girls Grammar School, where the service terminated, before changing and returning back to Hipperholme, and concocting the sort of ludicrously-contrived excuse for lateness that as a teacher I’ve now learned to identify as xxxxxx! Then when the poppy red of Yorkshire/West Riding/Yorkshire Traction started to be replaced by the insipid verona green/cream of the PTE I started, of course, to crave for poppy red variety: I remember West Yorkshire applied the PTE-style “MetroBus/[Company Name]/From here to there in West Yorkshire” fleetnames but on poppy red – good on them for showing some resistance. To pick up on David’s comment about PTE policies – PTEs had no compulsory powers of purchase . . . so why did NBC (which was a much larger organisation overall) capitulate to WMPTE and SELNEC? My wife – who is an economics lecturer (OK, we might – in the present climate – have opinions on the credibility of economists) is adamant that raising finance by selling assets is something that should never be done. As far as the dismemberment of Hebble is concerned, Geoffrey Hilditch – in vol.2 of his memoirs (Steel Wheels and Rubber Tyres) – has recorded that there was some ill-feeling within NBC about the way in which Hebble had been seen to be handed over to “Halifax”, and as a conciliatory gesture Calderdale JOC then handed a one-bus working on the Bradford-Hipperhome-Brighouse service (ex-Hebble 26/26A Bradford-Hipperholme – extended to Brighouse on “mergeover”) to WYRCC, well outside the WYRCC operating area. This seems somewhat ironic since WYRCC had previously inherited Hebble’s share of 64 Bradford-Huddersfield, which – also being well-outside its operating-area it repeatedly tried to pass on to Bradford City Transport (joint operator) in exchange for latter’s operating rights between Saltaire and Crossflats/Eldwick (an area of repeated conflict between BCT and WYRCC).
Philip Rushworth
14/05/12 – 07:38
If you thought that Keighley to Ossett was an unlikely pair of destinations there was another, not so far mentioned, operated by West Riding and co-ordinated with the “2”’s – numbered I recall “3” from Wakefield to Cullingworth !
Gordon Green
14/05/12 – 09:26
I agree entirely with Brendan on the subject of liveries per se, disregarding the rights and wrongs of mergers, takeovers, and “join our flock whether you like it or not” activities. In my opinion Nationals, VRs and Olympians looked very acceptable in original PTE green and cream, once again delightful in “Tilling” red and cream, and absolutely superb and fresh in Yorkshire Rider colours – I was always an ardent admirer of the latter, particularly in view of the quite indecent haste in which it had to be devised for October 26th 1986 : even weeks before that date it was by no means certain in any stable degree whether Metro (WYPTA/PTE) would be a bus operator or simply a service administration organisation. As I was about to take welcome redundancy from a very taxing supervisory job on “D” Day, thereby escaping the battlefield shambles that was to follow, I well remember the uncertainty and stress in all departments. One shining example of the tomfoolery was the conversion of two of Leeds’ very busiest and frequent double decker routes to minibus operation on ridiculously high frequencies and staff wages. If I remember rightly also, due to the hasty birth of the scheme, many of the necessary huge numbers of new Transits and Sherpas were not delivered in time. The scenes that followed on services 6 (Halton Moor to City – formerly Rodley) and 42 (Harehills to Old Farnley) were incredible and would have put Reg Varney, Blakey and the rest of the “On the buses” folks out of business. Sorry to seemingly digress, but its all part of the “out with the old and in with the unwise new” discussion after all.
Chris Youhill
15/05/12 – 07:43
With regard to the comments about PTE policies, the PTEs were able to insist on full control of operators within their areas, but not on ownership – at least not in the early days. However, in the case of North Western, operating as an agent for SELNEC would have meant losing control of most of their operation, with the consequent inability to continue to meet objectives set by the NBC. The sale took place because no satisfactory formula could be found for the two organisations to work together. (Information from A E Jones’s book on North Western in the Glory Days series.)
Peter Williamson
18/05/12 – 07:43
Peter, thank you for clarifying why North Western Road Car was sadly sold to SELNEC by NBC. I have always wondered why this was allowed to happen to such a respected and well-loved Company. It didn’t seem to make sense, but now at last I know. Although co-ordination of public transport was the order of the day, NBC and the ‘corporation’ fleets had different remits regarding services. From the outset NBC was charged with making a profit – taking one year with the next – which it did successfully for most of its existence (making a loss in only five financial years). If any of the municipal operators or PTEs made a loss, they were allowed to subsidise the loss from the rates. NBC also paid Corporation Tax, which the municipalities and PTEs did not, which seemed a little unfair to say the least. Leaving controversial corporate liveries aside, it could be argued that National Bus actually made quite a good fist of running things, considering some of the ‘events’ it had to contend with in its formative years. For example, the large fleet of time-expired buses it inherited from London Transport on the formation of London Country Bus Services. London Country also inherited a large operating area with, in effect, a large ‘hole’ in the middle, and was left without a central repair works, with which to overhaul its fleet. NBC turned its fortunes around eventually, investing heavily in new vehicles, but then had to contend with Midland Red losing its operating heart to West Midlands PTE, which again left another of its larger companies with a ‘hole’ in its operating territory. (At least it retained its renowned central repair works, although ironically this was deep in the heart of ‘enemy’ territory). Coupled with the loss of North Western, it was quite a turbulent time for National Bus, whose senior management must have thought that the PTEs had it cushy!
Brendan Smith
21/05/12 – 09:10
Here is a list of Hebble workings from the mid-1960s – at which time 106 drivers, 61 conductors, and 108 inspectors/clerks/mechanics were employed – (provided by Frank Woodworth, GM), in each case the order is number/route/frequency/depot (Halifax or Bradford)/allocation (brackets = allocation over main): 2 Halifax-Denholme-Keighley, Hourly, H/B, 3 omoSD 7 Halifax-Odsal-Bradford, 20/30 min, H, 3 DD (1 SD) 11 Mountain-Harecroft, Two-hourly, B, 2 omoSD 15 Leeds-Halifax-Burnley, Hourly, H, 3 omoSD / (3 SD) / 2 DD* 17 Halifax-Queensbury-Bradford, 20/30 min, H, 4 DD 18 Duckworth Lane-Bingley, 30/60 min, H/B, 2 omoSD (1 DD) 19 Bradford-Bingley, 20/30 min, B, 4 DD (1 omoSD) 25 Bradford-Buttershaw Estate, 30 min, B, 1 omoSD 26**** Bradford-Lumbrook-Hipperholme, Hourly, B, 1 omoSD 26A**** Bradford-Coley-Hipperholme, Hourly, H, 2 omoSD 28**** Leeds-Halifax-Rochdale, Hourly, H, 5 SD (2 DD) 29 Halifax-Wibsey-Bradford, Sat only, H/B, 2 DD 39 Scholes-Whitcliffe-Cleckheaton, Hourly, H, 1 omoSD** 40 Halifax-Norwood Green-Scholes-Cleckheaton, Hourly, H, 1 omoSD*** 64 Bradford-Brighouse-Huddersfield, 15min, B, 4DD*** *Part omo and DD/SD worked due to need to reverse at Hebden Bridge – Burnley-Hebden Bridge section omo. **Interworked and joint with YWD, revenue/mileage-agreement. ***Joint with Bradford CT and Huddersfield JOC, each operator kept own takings and duplicated own journeys. ****Later certain journeys diverted via Belle Vue Estate in Shelf and adopted numbers 36, 36A, 38. At this time Hebble operated 60 vehicles out of Halifax depot, and 22 vehicles out of Bradford depot (which also accommodated 15 YWD vehicles outstationed from its depots). Of course, Hebble also also operated a small number of express services . . . J1>, Yorkshire-Blackpool Pool, Year Round X1, Todmorden-Halifax-Scarborough, Seasonal daily X2, Todmorden-Halifax-Norwich-Great Yarmouth, Seasonal weekends only (ex. Walton & Helliwell, 1958, extension to Burnley refused) X3, Bradford-Rochdale, Seasonal weekends only (authorised as link to Devonian services of Yelloway, through vehicles operated) Which by 1968 had been expanded to; X4, Todmorden-Halifax-Norfolk Coast-Great Yarmouth, Seasonal weekends only (X3 and X4 now joint with YWD on granting of pick-up points at Cleckheaton, Heckmondwike, and Dewsbury). X6, Halifax-Woollen District-Lincolnshire Coast-Skegness, Seasonal weekends only (joint with YWD) X7, Todmorden-Yeadon Airport, Seasonal weekends only. X28, Halifax-Llandudno, Seasonal weekend-only thorough journey of 28 Halifax-Rochdale jointly with Creams (Lancashire) Ltd X91 Halifax-Odsal-Leeds-Whitby, July Saturdays only (joint with UAS/WYRCC0. But the X3 had disappeared! What had happened to X3? Well, by 1968 the Yorkshire-South West “South West Clipper” pool had been established, and Hebble had relinquished its through-workings with Yelloway to become a major participant. And finally! Between 1955-58 Hebble operated a Clayton-Yews Green circular service following withdrawal of BR services over the Queensbury lines (Queensbury station was some distance below the village and more accessible from the tiny hamlet of Yews Green [which was otherwise devoid of public transport]) – like most rail-replacement services, it didn’t last long. At some point a variation of service 7, Halifax-Shelf-Low Moor BRS, was operated – a special service to a BRS depot, how quaint! I don’t have details of service numbers for Clayton-Yews green or Halifax-Low Moor BRS, but if anybody could oblige I’d be grateful . . .
Philip Rushworth
21/05/12 – 11:21
The service from Clayton to Yews Green used route number 10. I have a number of old Hebble timetables and faretables and when I can unearth them I will check to see if the BRS Depot route had a number. Don’t hold your breath though !
John Stringer
21/05/12 – 15:15
According to the 1970 YWD and Hebble timetable, and the July 68 Yorkshire central timetable the Low Moor service was the 9. However, you didn’t plan a day out on it, because it has the footnote- ‘This service is liable to suspension when not required by British Road Service employees’!!!!!! It also looks like it was a one journey per day service. I do wonder whether it stayed in the garage more than it operated, I don’t recall it passing me on the police station wall at Northowram. I remember the 7, 15, 28 and the piece de resistance, 29 Wibsey Flier, which does make me wonder.
Chris Ratcliffe
22/05/12 – 07:57
How interesting Mr Rushworths list of Hebble services was. I believe one was missed out. Service 38 was Cleckheaton to Windy Bank Estate interworked with service 39 and joint with Y.W.D.
Philip Carlton
22/05/12 – 10:15
Re my earlier comment re the West Riding Cullingworth – Wakefield service I am beginning to think that this might be my memory playing tricks as nobody has picked up on it to confirm. Did it exist ? Also re Philip Rushworth’s superb list did Hebble 2 eventually divert to Keighley or is this intended to read Bingley
Gordon Green
22/05/12 – 14:38
You’re right, Gordon. There certainly was a Wakefield to Cullingworth service number 3 operated by West Riding. It took an incredible route from Wakefield via Ossett, Dewsbury, Ravensthorpe, Mirfield, Brighouse, Hipperholme, Queensbury, Denholme and Cullingworth. It cut deep into YWD and Hebble territory but must have been a very useful orbital feeder service from the main “trunk” routes to and from Huddersfield, Halifax, Bradford and Keighley.
Paul Haywood
22/05/12 – 14:40
It certainly did exist. In the 1968 Central Yorkshire timetable YWD operated the 2, Ossett to Keighley But also Hebble operated a Halifax to Bingley service, so I can see where I got confused with my earlier comment. Two services with the same number run by two companies with a very similar shade of red confusing to a 10/11 year old boy. The 3 ran from Cullingworth to Wakefield via Queensbury, Hipperholme, Mirfield, Ravensthorpe, Ossett. However, in the 1970 Hebble and Yorkshire timetable, the 2 table is labelled as joint between Hebble and YWD, and it looks like the 2 is the Keighley service operating every 2 hours with the odd short extra here and there, and the Bingley service has become the 2A on the other 2 hours The 3 by then has no operator listed, so I am presuming it was still YWD, and the route has been cut back to Denholme School Street. Later still of course, it was cut back to Queensbury Raggalds Inn. Hope that helps you.
Chris Ratcliffe
There’s a lovely shot of a West Riding Reliance on the Cullingworth service at //www.sct61.org.uk/wr814
David Beilby
23/05/12 – 09:19
Services 2 and 3 were two of YWD’s earliest motor bus routes. Both were originally operated by YWD only, commencing at Dewsbury, the 2 being Dewsbury to Keighley via Brighouse, Elland Bridge, Halifax, Denholme and Cullingworth, the 3 being Dewsbury to Haworth following the same route to Brighouse, then as described by Paul to Cullingworth then on to Haworth. Then in the late 1930’s an arrangement was made with West Riding Automobile whereby the 2 was extended from Dewsbury to Ossett, and the 3 from Dewsbury to Wakefield – whereupon WRAC began to operate a bus on the service. At the same time the 3 was cut back at its outer end to Cullingworth, the section from there to Haworth passing to West Yorkshire Road Car who incorporated it into their existing services. As a very young child I can remember seeing West Riding’s green halfcab Leyland Tigers occasionally passing through Hipperholme or Brighouse, but for several years the regular issue were AEC Reliance/Roe’s of the JHL-registered batch, then still in cream with green tops. YWD used Brush-bodied PS1’s or the lengthened PS2/Willowbrooks and Brush-bodied Royal Tigers, before the BET-style Reliances of the DHD batch took over. The route had to be single decked because of a low bridge in St. Giles Road, Lightcliffe – a road now no longer served by buses.
John Stringer
23/05/12 – 17:02
Thanks to Paul Haywood, Chris Ratcliffe, David Bielby & John Stringer for setting my mind at rest and confirming that my memory still does work (sometimes!) and for providing an interesting history of these various routes. When I first made my comment I nearly said that I thought that the two routes diverged between Denholme and Brighouse but I wasn’t sure. I have recently been reading some archived minutes of the old Haworth UDC who in those days had to licence bus operation in their area and who had from time to time deal with complaints about both the YWD and indeed West Yorkshire buses – if I can find them I will post them on this thread.
Gordon Green
24/05/12 – 07:58
Now look what you’ve started, Gordon! Intrigued by the prospect of YWD serving Haworth, something in the back of my mind kept nagging me that I remembered seeing a photo of an old YWD Dennis reportedly pulling up out of Cross Roads (close to Haworth). After much trawling, I found it in on page 101 of “Roads & Rails of West Yorkshire 1890 – 1950” by AE Jones. The photo, taken in 1927, says it is “tackling Manywells Heights between Cross Roads and Denholme, on the arduous route from Keighley”. Not recognising the exact location, a map check tells me that it is in fact pulling out of Cullingworth towards Denholme. Also, and this is the intriguing part, the destination shows Halifax. Was this a short-working of the original route 2 to/from Dewsbury to which John refers? What a route that must have been in those early bus days.
Paul Haywood
24/05/12 – 08:00
In response to Philip’s post of 22/5: he is right on both counts – but “2” is imprinted as Halifax-Keighley, and 38 had disappeared before the time of my list (and I forget to add it at the end with the “lost” 9 and 10 [and thanks for that detail]). But thanks for pointing that omission out. I think the 38 was incorporated in/became a YWD route extended through to Heckmondwike (and possibly beyond) – I imagine the Hebble crews would have been pleased, as having only to interwork 39/40 instead of 38/39/40 would have given them additional standing time at Cleckheaton Bus Station (although by the time I was familiar with it it wasn’t a place one wanted to linger! – though the number of bricked-up doorways and windows suggested that it had been a place of greater activity/importance in days gone by). After Hebble was dismembered its share of 40 (Halifax-Cleckheaton) passed to Calderdale JOC. The standing time at Cleckheaton was transferred to the Halifax end and service 39 became a YWD responsibility. To utilise standing time at the Halifax end the 40 was interworked with Halifax Corporation [sic] route 36 Halifax-Paddock Lane – so I assume that there must have been some financial dealings to compensate the JOC and YWD for operating a Corporation route. The whole pattern of NBC services in the Leeds-Cleckheaton/Dewsbury-Halifax/Brighouse/Rastick corridor changed under a PTE restructuring on 6th January 1979. This led to the covering of 40 by the extension/diversion of other YWD routes, the replacement of 36 by by a new 36 which had no YWD involvement, and changes to the 278 (eh! what that? – well, its what the “3” had become . . . by then running Dewsbury-Mirfield-Brighouse-Elland-Rastrick [with no West Riding involvement, but a significant YTC input]) which brought it back to the truncated Brighouse-Queensbury section of the Brighouse-Cullingworth section it had forsaken when it took over the Brighouse-Elland/Elland Rasrick sections of a couple of linked YWD Leeds-Elland/Elland-Rastrick services. The Leeds-Brighouse service (?25) which resulted from that split then interworked with the Brighouse-Queensbury section of the old “3” as the “35”, later 547 under PTE numbering (the only 5-series YWD service, but so numbered because it ran entirely within Calderdale District and between Brighouse and Hipperholme it “more-or-less” paralled ex-CJOC services (5)48/(5)49). Does any of this make sense? Is anybody still reading?? Well, think of the public! When I can think straight again I’ll try [sic] to piece together the linked stories of the YWD 2 Dewsbury-Halifax service(the Halifax-Keighley section having bome CJOC “2”) and YWD/WROC 3 Wakefield-Cullingworth services/successors post-1969. Thanks, John, for explaining why YWD/WRAC “3” terminated at such an unlikely spot as Cullingworth – I’d always wondered why it didn’t run on to somewhere more significant (Bingley/Keighley/Haworth/Oxenhope), but I’d never linked this with YWD’s withdrawal from Cullingworth-Howarth. And, of course it was Gordon and not Philip that pointed out my error re the destination of Hebble “2” – in my defence Ofsted have just visited my place of work, and I’m struggling to get back on track!
Philip Rushworth
24/05/12 – 08:01
The 2/3 service have always been single decked as is the present day 279 [Dewsbury-Halifax] service because of the railway bridge at Elland. This appears to be normal height but there is a nasty girder inside.I believe a driver once was driving the paddy bus and tried to take a short cut back to Heckmondwike depot.
Philip Carlton
24/05/12 – 08:03
I have just found my 1939 Hebble timetable, and I must amend my previous comments, as it shows YWD service 2 operating from Wakefield to Keighley. Although Service 3 largely followed the A644 between Brighouse and Denholme Gate (where it rejoined Service 2), just before Hove Edge it turned right along Finkil Street, left along Upper Green Lane, and right along the winding Spout House Lane and St. Giles’ Road (round the back of the old Brooke’s Chemical Works) then just before the end of the road it had to make a tight 90 degree left turn under a low arched railway bridge near Lightcliffe Station, necessitating a wide swing on to the opposite side of the road to avoid hitting the arch. It then turned left opposite Lightcliffe Stray and followed the A649 to Hipperholme Crossroads, where it turned right and rejoined the A644. By 1974 the service was reduced to operating Brighouse to Queensbury only as Service 35 (hourly) by YWD. In the PTE renumbering scheme around 1976 it became Service 547. Later I seem to recall Yorkshire Traction taking it over (was it 278?) and running it from Dewsbury to Raggalds (an even more obscure place to have a terminus). It was interworked with their 262 Huddersfield to Dewsbury via Hopton route. Back to Hebble though, and further route numbers used in 1939 were: 8: Halifax-Leeds via Dudley Hill (before being linked to the Rochdale or Burnley routes). 12: Bradford-Brighouse-Huddersfield Originally each of the joint operators used different numbers from their own series, and this was Hebble’s. Eventually they all agreed to use Bradford’s no. 64. 23: Bradford-Halifax-Blackpool 25: Halifax-Wyke via Norwood Green A route taken over from Calder Bus Service, Bailiff Bridge. Early postwar it was joined to YWD’s 40 Wyke to Cleckheaton service and took the YWD series number. 27: Todmorden-Halifax-Leeds-Scarborough The routes operated at the time were: 2, 7, 8, 11 (then Mountain-Duckworth Lane), 12, 15, 17, 18, 19, 23, 25, 26 (no 26A via Coley then), 27, 28, 29. The Blackpool and Scarborough services are not shown as having route numbers in the timetable, but they are shown as 23 & 27 on the route map in the back. I was always mystified by the seemingly haphazard numbering system Hebble used for its routes, with many missing numbers, but these appear to represent the routes that Hebble originally operated in the 1920’s but which passed to Halifax Joint Committee in 1929. What does not quite add up though is that Hebble did not use route numbers until the 1930’s, so why leave gaps for routes that they had not run for a number of years ? Either Norman Dean just had a great sense of history, having been responsible for setting up those routes in the first place, or maybe Hebble had used route numbers all along for internal purposes, but just had not seen the need to display them on the vehicles. Who knows ? I have tried to make a list of all the start dates for the various services, then allocate chronological route numbers to them, and they almost fit – but not quite. Anyway, where does Hebble’s Fleetline come into all this ???
John Stringer
24/05/12 – 10:37
Going even farther from the Hebble Fleetline, it seems clear that operators up and down the land “did their own thing” as regards route numbering. I wonder if some were being far-sighted, leaving gaps so that they could allocate numbers in sequence to existing routes when new variants were introduced. Derby Corporation (in the early 60s) had routes 2, 3, 4, 11, 14, 22, 24, 25, 26, 30, 31, 32, 33, 37, 39, 39A, 41, 42, 43, 46, 47, 48, 49, 49A, 50, 51, 51A, 53, 54, 55, 57, 59, 60, 66, 70, 74, 77, 88, 90, 91 – a total of 40 (but no route 1!) – and another quixotic touch was that originally all multiples of 11 were trolleybuses! Odd workings, school, works services etc. nearly always showed route 02. Midland General/Notts & Derby went for single letter and single digit number for their routes (A1 to A9, B1 to B9 etc). I have mentioned elsewhere that Trent’s jointly operated routes did not harmonise their route numbers, so for example Nottingham – Worksop – Doncaster was a Trent 64 or East Midland 36. (Surprisingly, in old days East Midland destination blinds actually showed both numbers.) And now bureaucracy thinks we are all so thick that we cannot be trusted to distinguish between a red 52 and a blue one. Every service has to be different, giving rise to daft astronomical numbers even for operators who only run a couple of routes.
Stephen Ford
24/05/12 – 10:38
John, what a complex history routes 2 and 3 had! I’ve just looked at a copy of an undated (but claiming to be 1940’s) YWD map which shows the 2 terminating at Dewsbury, and the 3 continuing to Wakefield. Putting on my tram fan cap, and reverting to the early services, there can’t have been many bus services anywhere in the country which would have paralleled or crossed so many tram systems. Lets imagine YWD route 3 in (say) 1930, starting at Keighley; early “trackless” (to Utley); Bradford trams (crossing at Queensbury); Halifax trams (crossing at Stone Chair and following Hipperholme to Brighouse); Huddersfield trams (meeting at Brighouse and nearly meeting at Cooper Bridge); YWD trams (Ravensthorpe to Dewsbury); Dewsbury & Ossett trams (from Dewsbury to Ossett) and finally meeting WR trams at Ossett. Six tramways and one early trolleybus route on one stage-carriage bus route. If the longer route 2 via Halifax was followed from Keighley to Wakefield, that would have missed the Bradford trams. Now those certainly would have been rides to remember!
Paul Haywood
24/05/12 – 10:39
As a long forgotten radio comedian used as his catch phrase – ” I only asked” !!
Gordon Green
25/05/12 – 07:32
John is right, the discussion has deviated – but what a richness of information has come to light! And how else could we share such knowledge? Back to the original post then. Why did Hebble buy just the one Northern Counties bodied Fleetline – for a fleet with with maintenance problems it could only have added to their difficulties, why not two or three? Was the decision influenced by Halifax’s purchasing policy at the time?? – did Hebble think that they might obtain spares from a neighbour??? Am I right in thinking that part of a batch of Alexander-bodied Fleetlines delivered to YWD was, when the fleets were under common management, originally destined for Hebble? (one of these did subsequently pass to Hebble, didn’t it? and into the Calderdale fleet [EFE did produce a model of this, but in the wrong height I think] . . . which must in turn have caused Calderdale problems in keeping body spares for a unique vehicle). Does anybody out there remember the interior of the Hebble Fleetline?: Halifax’s had a pale green melamine interior panel – what colour was Hebble’s? Its all fascinating stuff. To answer part (d) of Dave’s question, from almost a year ago – Walnut Street Depot is long gone, Walnut Street still exists, but the site of the Hebble depot is now occupied by a light industrial unit. And in response to Philip’s post of 8/5, the major improvement (in 1961) was the move of the stores unit which had divided the Walnut Street depot into separate “highbridge” and “lowbridge” sections and the raising of the roof of the lower half, such that the whole of the depot was capable of accommodating highbridge vehicles (prior to this highbridge Regent Vs had their grill-surrounds painted white to identify them as such). And finally. To fill in a missing bit from my post of 12/5 and link with John’s post of 23/5, in the late 1960s the hourly Hebble 2 (Halifax-Bingley) and YWD 2 (Ossett-Halifax-Keighley) were integrated as 2/2A Ossett-Halfax-Keighley/Bingley each running 2-hourly – though Hebble never ran on the Keighley branch. What a fascinating time this must have been for bus enthusiast – I’m about ten years too young to have experienced this era in all its glory, so this site is a haven!
Philip Rushworth
25/05/12 – 07:32
Service 278 was Dewsbury to The Ragalds Inn worked by Heckmondwike depot and also as stated 262 Dewsbury to Huddersfield. I once was on 278 and had the need to get some change at the Ragalds. I was given grief by the landlord who stated he was running a pub not a bank.
Philip Carlton
25/05/12 – 15:13
It always seemed strange to me that Hebble’s Fleetline was so similar to Halifax’s, the BET-style curved screen but flat upper deck front not being taken by any BET company as far as I am aware. This style was used by other municipalities such as Swindon and Chester, and by Western SMT. Hebble operated increasingly under the wing of YWD, sometimes following their vehicle buying policy – such as Regent V’s and Ford coaches, yet shunning Leopards after an initial six in 1963 and reverting to Reliances. YWD had taken eleven Alexander-bodied Fleetlines the previous year, and was to take more – and also Atlanteans – the year after, but in 1966 they took no double deckers so Hebble could not have just tagged an extra bus onto their order. Also the YWD buses were of an intermediate height of around 14ft., and Hebble may have wanted the full 14ft. 6in. Northern Counties were suppliers of Fleetlines to the BET Group, but if the order was a bit of a last minute job it may just have been convenient to slip in an extra one to Halifax specification in front of their own order. Its chassis and body numbers were separate from Halifax’s though. The Hebble bus arrived some while earlier than Halifax’s and at first was used on the Halifax-Bradford routes 7/17, but later one of YWD’s Alexander-bodied Fleetlines (BHD 222C) was transferred to Hebble in order that they could have two Fleetlines to operate on the 64 Bradford-Huddersfield service. This bus looked really great in Hebble’s livery. Though both passed initially into YWD ownership at the winding up, they were soon passed on to Halifax, BJX 222C strangely going to the Corporation as 103, displacing their existing 103 to the J.O.C. as 293. DJX 351D went to the J.O.C. as 294, and it was interesting to see how similar yet different it looked in Halifax livery. I drove both buses a lot during their time at Halifax/WYPTE. Both seemed to have a different braking system to our own Fleetlines, having a harder pedal and being much more difficult to stop – especially on steep downhill gradients of which there are one or two round here. We later acquired five ex-Leeds Fleetlines 101-105 LNW and these were the same. I believe these older ones had a Westinghouse rather than Clayton Dewandre system, but am not certain. 294 had numerous detail difference from our own, the most noticeable being the large single aperture destination and route number box, compared to Halifax rather fussy three-piece ones. The doors were of the 4-piece jack-knife type, against our owns’ 2-piece glider doors. This meant nearside visibility was slightly impaired, but at least they did not blow open in crosswinds, or generally flop about and let draughts in. It had a small glass panel, originally illuminated with the Hebble name, in the upper deck rear panel, where ours had route number indicators. The interior had a kind of reddish/salmon coloured Formica on the lower panels compared to Halifax’s pale green, and the seats were trimmed in reddish colours. I may be wrong, but I think the staircase was a different shape. Like Chris R. I was not too keen on 294, but then I thoroughly disliked all the older Fleetlines. They were heavy, with vague steering, the front ends of the NCME bodies were weak, and the windscreens worked loose, and on a few occasions fell out into the road – or blew out from the inside when the crosswinds blew the doors open ! Their flywheels slipped, brakebands slipped, they fumed, overheated and were desperately hard riding at the front. Ugh !! However, setting aside its deficiencies, being a J.O.C. bus it was used a lot on the Halifax-Bradford 76/77 services and at least I could pretend to be working for Hebble. 103’s Alexander body seemed much better built and had no rattles. The lower build gave it far better roadholding with no rolling and swaying. The driver’s cab was a bit cramped, and you seemed to sit much closer to the offside. The cab ceiling was lower and it was easy to almost perforate the side of one’s head on the row of flick switches (for the interior lights) whose box jutted out at just the wrong place. I used to really like 103, which once WYPTE took over was no longer confined to A-Side routes and I always used to try to get it on Bradford. All the NCME Fleetlines were structurally weak at the front, and the shrouded rear ends caused problems, and in WYPTE days all were rebuilt and strengthened, and had the rear shrouds removed – including the Hebble one. At the same time it gained the still non-standard destination box shown on the photo. In 1971 – now under much closer control by YWD – Hebble had two Alexander-bodied Fleetlines and three Marshall-bodied Leopard PSU3B’s on order, but these were delivered to YWD as part of the JHD-J and KHD-K batches respectively.
John Stringer
26/05/12 – 06:23
In later life many of the Halifax Fleetlines were fitted with Leeds style front destination boxes with the three track number blind below a final destination
Chris Hough
26/05/12 – 06:26
Whilst on the subject (by the way what was the subject ?) here is a scan from a slide I took on 30th May 1968 of West Riding Roe-bodied Panther 162 (LHL 162F) on Service 3, returning from Cullingworth to Wakefield along Brighouse & Denholmegate Road between Queensbury and Stone Chair roundabout.
John Stringer
28/05/12 – 08:23
Just a few more scraps of Hebble route information for Philip Rushworth (everybody else must have given up the will to live by now !) The 26A variation via Coley started in 6/39 – just after my 1939 timetable must have been published. The Hebble 25 (Wyke) and YWD 40 were combined in 1952. The 25 Buttershaw commenced in 1955. 64 was adopted by all operators for Bradford-Huddersfield in 6/55. At the same time as the 10 (Clayton Circular) started (23/5/55) there was also a 9 (Wibsey-Cullingworth via Harecroft). Both ceased on 1/10/58.
John Stringer
29/01/14 – 06:16
I read that one outcome of the 1971 NBC mergers was the replacement of most of services 2 and 3 by a service from Wakefield to Halifax (79, now 278). This seems an obvious route now and strange that it didn’t exist until 1971, but I suppose the regulatory regime/area agreements must have been responsible.
Geoff Kerr
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/10/19 – 05:39
Returning to the topic of Hebble’s (lack of) reliability, I spent 1972 to 1974 at Mansfield District’s Sutton Road Depot. NBC had set up a network of help points to which long distance coach drivers could turn, if required. MDT was responsible for an area of North Derbyshire & Nottinghamshire, which included a section of the M1. That could be interesting, given that our coaches seated 41 and our DPs seated 43! We suspected Hebble drivers were either under instructions to seek a change-over as soon as they left Yorkshire or just sought the first opportunity to try for a better steed. On one memorable occasion, a south-bound Hebble driver pulled onto the M1 hard shoulder, concerned about a banging noise coming from a front wheel. MDT’s duty Running Shift Fitter duly attended, examined the vehicle, and pronounced it fit to continue. The driver set off and, as soon as he had got going in the inside lane, one of his front wheels detached. To say the attendant police officers were not amused is an understatement!!
Here are two photos I took in November 1964 at The Square in Bournemouth of one of the corporations unique Daimler Fleetlines fitted with bodies by MH Cars of Belfast the only bodies by this manufacturer delivered to the UK mainland they were part of an order for similar buses being built for Belfast Corporation at that time but diverted to Bournemouth who were suffering a vehicle shortage, registered ALJ 340/41 fleet No’s 40/41. Reported by Buses Illustrated magazine as being delivered in Belfast livery but repainted before entering service, does any one know what happened to them after they left Bournemouth? I may be wrong but I think MH Cars later became Potters who in turn became Alexanders (Belfast).
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
ALJ 340B has been preserved, initially at Mallard Road, but the 2012 PSVC listing gives her at Winkleigh.
Pete Davies
11/09/12 – 07:23
An interesting purchase by Bournemouth. I suspect that Alexander had been involved with MH Cars all the way down the line, as this body style is very much like those supplied by Alexander to Newcastle in 1964.
Paul Haywood
12/09/12 – 07:15
It’s not a particularly pretty bus, but it’s not quite as bad as the first Alexander Atlantean body. Sheffield had just one, 369. My favourites are outside the scope of this forum – Sheffield’s Voith/AN68s with peaks on the Alexander body (with flat screens upper and lower).
David Oldfield
18/04/13 – 07:25
It always been rumoured that these two Fleetlines were diverted from an order for Belfast Corporation Transport. I am not sure the source of this but the two Bournemouth chassis numbers bear no relation to the batch of 150 Fleetlines which Belfast ordered even though they were built in between the two batches. The chassis numbers of 40/1 are concurrent with the CRU batch but not any Belfast vehicle. I believe they were built at the same time and may have been to a virtually identical specification to Belfast’s vehicles. I have also seen it reported that they were delivered in Belfast red but have never seen a photograph of either in this scheme and I am sure someone would have taken a photo on such an unusual event.
Bill Headley
24/08/13 – 10:32
I have a photo of the ex Belfast Fleetlines in the Bournemouth body shop in Belfast livery having the destination screen layout altered to Bournemouth’s standard pattern, prior to painting in Bournemouth livery. So these two buses definitely arrived in Belfast livery.
David Chalk
25/08/13 – 06:28
Could you post it, David?
Chris Hebbron
25/08/13 – 06:29
I visited Winkleigh on the 7th October 2012 where many of the preserved Bournemouth buses are now stored. I’m certain the bus on the right of this photo is Daimler Fleetline ALJ 340B referred to by Pete Davies.
Mac Head
11/10/13 – 17:18
David, I would love to see the “delivery” photo of the MH Cars Fleetline at Bournemouth in Belfast red. I believe I have finally got to the bottom of the mystery. What became Bournemouth 40/1 (ALJ 340/1B) were nothing to do with a Belfast Corporation order which is why their chassis numbers don’t tally with any Belfast vehicles. The chassis were originally destined to be bodied and delivered as demonstrators to Coras Iompair Eireann in Dublin for a trial. It appears that Leyland objected quoting an unwritten agreement between CIE and Leyland and the proposed programme was abandoned. Bournemouth was struggling for new vehicles because of a strike at Weymanns in which the CRU xxxC batch were caught and these two “complete” vehicles were offered and sold to Bournemouth. The fact that the chassis numbers immediately precede the Bournemouth batch appears to be coincidental. So it would appear that the mystery is finally solved.
Bill Headley
15/10/13 – 07:05
One further question for David – did 40/1 (ALJ 340/1B) arrive on trade plates or did they have Northern Ireland registration numbers on them?
Bill Headley
13/02/14 – 10:46
My brother and I grew up in Bournemouth in the 1970s having moved from Bury (Lancashire). We were overwhelmed by the difference between the Bury Corporation/Selnec Fleet and that of Bournemouth. The Bournemouth Fleetlines and Atlanteans were modern, bright and impeccably clean compared to the Leyland Titans of Bury/Selnec. We lived on Route 17 which seemed to always get the newest vehicles. We were amazed when we first saw the two MH cars bodied buses and grew fond of them because of their quirkiness. We didn’t see them that often though and I think only travelled on them once or twice. Our favourites were the CRU … C batch of open toppers on Route 12 which followed the same route as Route 17 in Alum Chine. We sometimes tried to use them coming home from school but the drivers refused to accept our bus passes on that route!! Happy Days!!
David R
14/02/14 – 06:47
The brother of David R. My brother and I went to different schools in our teens with very different school bus times. Whereas he started school at just gone 8am, my school at the other side of town started at 9.25am, but finished at 4.30pm. in the first year of secondary school, our school bus route 44 (45 was from Southbourne and 46 from Winton and Charminster. The morning run in 1975 we always received the dual door Leyland Titan PD3/1s, but the evening run was always Daimler Fleetlines or Leyland Atlanteans. However, on a number of occasions we received the MH Cars Fleetlines – which if I remember rightly seated 78 instead of the usual 73? (i am sure someone will know the answer to that). what always amazed me was the MH cars Fleetlines never seemed to operate the 45 or 46 school bus runs – only the 44! The other rarity was during the winter, we would sometimes receive one of the open top fleet – roofed of course! It was always fun to spot ‘Durham’ or ‘Northumberland’ doing the 44 school run! indeed happy days that year, before the new batches of vehicles started to appear, and the PD3/1s disappeared…
Jonathan R
14/02/14 – 13:32
Yes that’s right Jonathan. They put on a special service in the morning at about 07.35 to take the kids who lived in Alum Chine/Westbourne to the Square to catch the normal service route 29/32 to Charminster to be at East Way at 08:15 for school start time at 08:20. School finished at 15:25 and if we were quick to catch the 15:28 from East Way to the Square in time to get the 15:45 route 17 back to Westbourne and Alum Chine. It was quite a rush in the afternoon I can say!! The whole point of the staggered school start times was so that one batch of buses could do 2 school runs thus reducing the total number of buses needed.
David R
06/04/14 – 18:20
I grew up in Bournemouth during the 1960s/early 1970s, and remember 40/41 when they were new. They were used on route 1 to Christchurch in their early days. Unfortunately, I lived only a mile from Bournemouth School and was envious of those boys who got two (or more) bus rides a day as part of their education! At primary school we did have various bus rides for swimming, etc, but these never involved 40/41 and in fact I do not think I ever rode on them despite being a frequent user of buses for getting around the town. As David R points out, there was a close relationship between the Corporation and the Education Dept. at The Town Hall – all our local journeys for school purposes were undertaken in Corporation buses.
Grahame Arnold
08/04/14 – 07:47
Ah yes the trips to Stokewood Road Swimming Baths. IIRC we had the Leyland Leopards for some of those journeys! I also think we used a Roadliner from time to time. The only time we used another “firm” was when we used Shamrock and Rambler for the CCF (Combined Cadet Force) journeys to Portsmouth and elsewhere.
David R
05/07/14 – 17:28
I was born in Boscombe (Hospital) sixty years ago and for the next twenty one years lived in Barrack Road, Christchurch, with the passing Bournemouth Corporation buses, trolley buses and the green Hants & Dorset Bristols. Before the introduction of the rear engined Daimlers I remember seeing a white and blue version in use. Does anyone know if it was a trial unit or does this have any bearing on the ‘Belfast’ debate?
Mike Giles
06/07/14 – 08:20
Bournemouth had the Daimler Fleetline 7000 HP demonstrator on trial for a while – which was in a blue livery as I recall, and had also had the Alexander bodied Leyland Atlantean in the Glasgow orange livery on loan as well (SGD 669). Also tried at about that time was 7552 MX, an AEC Renown demonstrator, which was in a blue and white livery. In the event, Bournemouth ordered Fleetlines and Atlanteans with bodies by Weymann (who had been body supplier for the postwar trolleys), but with a front end very similar to the Alexander demonstrator. My understanding at the time was that delivery of the completed vehicles was somewhat protracted – problems at Weymann’s I believe – and hence two MH Cars bodied vehicles were obtained to the Belfast design (and apparently they were vehicles already completed for the Belfast order). They definitely lacked the ‘style’ of the vehicles Bournemouth wanted, but were a ‘stop-gap’ measure by the transport department who wanted new vehicles urgently .
Peter Delaney
11/07/14 – 16:32
The two Bournemouth MH Cars bodied vehicles were not “part of an already completed order for Belfast”. They were built as a joint venture between Daimler and MH Cars and MH Coachworks to supply a fully “Irish built bus” which they could offer to CIE. The plan was to give two Fleetline to CIE on extended demonstration. The two chassis 60929 and 60930 were built long after the second batch of Belfast chassis (which had been 60644-60706)and were supplied to MH in CKD form to be built up in the MH factory at Dunmore in Belfast. Knowing that Belfast was successfully running 150 Fleetlines already 60929 and 60930 were built to full Belfast specification and were even painted in Belfast’s red and cream livery. In the meantime Leyland having got wind of the proposed deal for CIE to have two MH Cars Daimler Fleetlines on extended demonstration, cited an agreement between Leyland and CIE. To meet CIE’s needs and to get vehicles immediately, Leyland cobbled together a group of Atlanteans from Bolton, Glasgow and Liverpool and dispatched them to Dublin. At the time Daimler were aware that Bournemouth’s forthcoming batch of Fleetlines were bogged down in an industrial dispute at Weymanns and did a deal to sell them these two additional vehicles “on the cheap”. This is why these two vehicles arrived in Bournemouth in Belfast colours and to Belfast specifications. The one thing I cannot ascertain is – did they arrive in Bournemouth on Northern Irish number plates or did they arrive on trade plates? David Chalk said he had photos of them on delivery but hasn’t uploaded them and I am not aware of any other photos of the pair pre-delivery. I hope this clarifies the background to these two vehicles.
Bill Headley
12/07/14 – 06:47
Thank you to Bill for clarifying the background to this – I had missed seeing his earlier post (having answered the comment about blue & white demonstrators) – the MH bodied ones certainly ‘appeared’ to be standard Belfast buses at the time! The sequence of chassis numbers, though, is ‘interesting’ – I seem to recall that order books / chassis registers for Daimlers of that period survive in the Coventry Archives.
Peter Delaney
13/07/14 – 06:59
Just found this page and can add some information re; surviving examples of the 1965 Daimler Fleetlines. Of the open-top batch (180-189, there are 3 known survivors all of which are driveable but undergoing various form of restoration works. 180 – Based in Midlands, last seen in Bournemouth colours but may appear in a new colour scheme (tbc) 184 – Owned by myself and based in Dorset and currently is having it’s upstairs floor replaced, with some frame repairs. It will be restored to Bournemouth colours. Although in good structural and mechanical condition, it’s suffered from having a lot of modifications from original spec over the years. 187 – Last seen residing in Sussex and will be restored to London Transport colours. Of the fixed top batch (190-199), the last known survivor was 197 but this hasn’t been seen since BPTA days about the late 1990’s I’d say. I’ve never been able to track this one down and it’s fate is a bit of a mystery.
Nick Jackson
12/04/15 – 07:12
Both 40 and 41 were a diverted to Bournemouth as part of the 150 strong order for Fleetlines being bodied by MH Cars in 1963/64. Bournemouth had a pressing need for new vehicles urgently in the summer of 1964 as the Atlanteans on order were running late. Bournemouth was already in negotiation with Daimler for the 1965 delivery and it was found that two Fleetlines could be diverted very quickly. As said above, they arrived in Belfast colours and were modified and painted before use. The reason that the two chassis numbers are out of sequence with the remaining Belfast buses is because Daimler issued numbers based on when orders were received and not when the chassis were built. The two received separate chassis numbers as they were ordered separately, but arrived in Belfast colours as they were intended for Belfast and would have had chassis numbers in the Belfast sequence if they had not been diverted to Bournemouth. The tale about CIE being involved is completely without foundation.
James Prince
13/04/15 – 07:41
Here is the photo of one of the two vehicles having its blind apertures altered to Bournemouth’s style at Mallard Road Depot in June 1964. Although already partially repainted, it’s clear that the front panel is still in Belfast Red and the windscreen surrounds are still white. Copyright unknown
Chris Hebbron
16/04/15 – 06:40
I worked for Bournemouth Corporation as a mechanic from 1978-80 when I left as a result of an injury. I distinctly remember a number of the older Fleetlines (the ones without power steering) being sold to Hong Kong. They were cracking buses and were fitted with Gardner engines and were very much more reliable than the Leyland Atlanteans which made up the bulk of the fleet.
Terry Hall
27/09/16 – 13:35
Just to update everyone 40 (ALJ 340B) returned home yesterday to Belfast and is now safely stored away pending further restoration work. This some 50 years after she was built at MH Cars (chassis assembly from Daimler kit) and MH Coachworks (bodybuilding. She is the sole remaining example of an Irish built/assembled Daimler Fleetline and the only MH Coachworks bodied vehicle preserved – there are some school bus Albion Vikings around.
Bill Headley
28/09/16 – 06:28
Great news, Bill!
Pete Davies
28/09/16 – 06:29
This handsome vehicle wears its years lightly and is well worth preserving. The Bournemouth livery and blind aperture layout only enhance its looks. Let’s hope this stays, rather than changing it to the Belfast livery.
Chris Hebbron
30/09/16 – 04:23
Two very fine looking vehicles indeed, enhanced even further by the lovely Bournemouth livery. I imagine there would have been some “head scratching” in order to accommodate the four sets of winding gear for the superb and informative destinations displays – I always wondered at the little “trunk road” coloured ones – “via Old Christchurch Road” etc.
Chris Youhill
04/10/16 – 05:31
Pleased to hear of progress but slightly saddened she wont be based in her home of so many years. One question: why is the nearside front window slightly larger than the drivers side front window?
David Rawsthorn
05/10/16 – 07:01 4
The driver’s window had to open, unlike the nearside fitting.
Roger Cox
05/10/16 – 09:35
It must have been a very strange sensation for body builders to be carrying out such extensive frontal alteration work on brand new vehicles.
Chris Youhill
06/10/16 – 06:17
Yes I though that may have been the case. What still puzzles me is that the blind apertures are the wrong way around when compared to normal. On the Weyman and Alexander bodied vehicles the number and via small apertures are nearest the nearside whereas on the MH cars vehicles the small apertures are driver side. Was it simply for ease of altering the original Belfast layout?
David Rawsthorn
06/10/16 – 17:03
I’m sure you’re right there David – the performance must have been complex enough without and additional “perfections.” I must say that I always considered these to be two very handsome and appealing vehicles. I haven’t been to Bournemouth for perhaps almost forty years but I do remember being very disappointed from afar (Leeds) when the very unprofessional blue fleetnames were introduced. Last time I was there I was most impressed by the bus stop advertisements showing a spider’s web and the cautionary “Use us or lose us” – a sinister warning of the ever prominent declining passenger figures in the Industry.
Chris Youhill
13/10/16 – 07:12
Yes when the then new “blue flash” livery was applied many of the locals were decidedly unhappy. Then they added the blue skirt which seemed to be a further retrograde step and then they introduced the brown flash livery. Personally I liked the original yellow with green and mauve band. It worked really well. As I said in an earlier post it seemed to my brother and I that the buses were kept in immaculate condition. We were also very fond of the open toppers the CRU – C batch and then the NFX – P batch. Happy memories.
David Rawsthorn
13/10/16 – 15:27
On the subject of “favourite batches” one group of vehicles bring back especially happy memories for me – the open top Leyland TDs. I once enjoyed a lovely ride on service 12 to Hengistbury Head – the glorious sound effects from the open top deck were pure nostalgia, and I seem to remember in particular one steep climb from the sea front where the mature deep prewar Leyland tones were pure music to my ears.
Chris Youhill
17/10/16 – 07:14
Yet another question about this vehicle. Why does it have twin front headlights as built, not changed by Bournemouth Corporation Transport when the destination layout was changed, but changed at some future point in time.
David Rawsthorn
18/10/16 – 07:41
On the subject of Bournemouth there is one of the Burlingham bodied Tigers currently for sale on eBay.
Andrew Charles
18/10/16 – 09:21
Yes seen it is for sale. £22K. A lovely vehicle but sadly have neither the wherewithal nor the storage.
David Rawsthorn
18/10/16 – 09:21
Expect it to be sold by now.
Roger Burdett
25/12/16 – 06:19
40/1 were delivered with dual headlights but were later converted by Bournemouth to single sets of headlights. 40 has already been restored to dual sets and has a new front panel with a Daimler badge restored as well.
Bill Headley
Can I ask a technical question Bill? Are both headlights in a pair dip and main beam or is one main beam only?
David Rawsthorn
26/12/16 – 10:10
Re dip and main beam in vehicles with four headlights, I’ve come across the following combinations over the last 50 years over a range of vehicles and in different countries: Both pairs work in tandem. Outer pair on in dipped mode, inner pair off, then all four on for full beam. Outer pair on in permanent dipped mode, inner pair come on for full beam leaving outer pair dipped.
Phil Blinkhorn
26/12/16 – 17:56
Having once had the Leyland car equivalent of the original Atlantean, the Princess, I can tell you that four standard headlamps (two full beam only) are hopeless, especially for urban driving. The dipped smaller unit gives a poorer light in most situations. If all four could be dipped other drivers would not accept this and retaliate. If these followed the same pattern, why give a bus lights designed for unlit, little used roads? Luxury cars (and many now) had a full size normal pair and two extra, smaller “driving” lights for full beam.
Joe
04/10/17 – 07:31
As an update I just wanted to let people know that sister vehicle 40 (ALJ 340B) which recently returned to Belfast to undergo further restoration has now been returned to roadworthy condition having passed it’s MoT. It’s a great credit to new owner Richard Shannon that so much has been done so quickly. Work continues….
Bill Headley
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
29/04/18 – 16:30
Now restored to its’ original colour scheme is former Bournemouth 40 (ALJ 340B). It is fitted with Belfast Corporation destination blinds – which it never actually carried but this is the destination screen layout it carried when delivered. There is a photo on this thread showing the screens being alter to Bournemouth layout. This former unused Daimler/MH Coachworks demonstrator and its’ sister 41 (ALJ 341B) were disposed of to Bournemouth directly from the manufacturers and were never owned by Belfast Corporation Transport. 40 made its’ first appearance yesterday in Belfast in its’ original guise.
It’s August 1968 and a wet day in Glossop. One of SHMD Board’s recently delivered Walsall inspired short dual entrance Fleetlines is about to turn at the traffic lights outside the Norfolk Arms on a 127 to Stalybridge. North Western’s Glossop Depot is further up the road behind the Fleetline. These buses looked quite elegant in this livery but were totally unsuited to the SELNEC orange and white applied after the PTE takeover. Note the Rotavent ventilators in the side windows in lieu of sliding top lights, these were very much in vogue at the time.
The introduction of the V shaped lower deck windscreen changed a plain and fairly dull NCME design into something much more attractive compared to the full sized vehicle of previous deliveries. Why SHMD went to a smaller vehicle when every operator around it – even Stockport – had gone for something bigger is a question I can’t answer. The narrow front door wasn’t particularly well liked but the vehicles performed reasonably well in service and I agree, the SELNEC scheme ruined the overall look.
Phil Blinkhorn
19/10/12 – 11:12
It’s an odd combination, with folding front door and a sliding one amidships. I have a bought view of a “C” suffix unit from this fleet, and it has only a cream stripe below the upper windows – above the indicator display. This looks far better.
Pete Davies
19/10/12 – 12:44
This was a strange vehicle design contrived by the innovative Edgeley Cox at Walsall where a large fleet of this type was operated. Was there some relationship between the managements at SHMD and Walsall to cause SHMD to choose these vehicles? I have always rationalised the concept in my mind on the basis that the narrow front door would be used as the entrance if the bus was working one man but could be kept closed and the centre door used conventionally for entry and exit if a conductor was on board just like a normal forward entrance front engined decker. Anybody know if this is right? It is interesting that SHMD also had a history of innovation with the centre entrance Daimlers and of course the solitary double deck Atkinson in the mid-fifties. I understand these were inspired by a GM who had been at Blackpool, the spiritual home of centre entrance double deckers. All this adds up to show what powers the municipal GM’s seemed to have in those glory days in including individual quirks into new vehicle specifications.
Philip Halstead
19/10/12 – 14:43
Philip is correct about the idea behind the door usage. I’m not aware of any direct link between SHMD and Walsall and it would be interesting to see the minutes relating to the decision to purchase the vehicles. Presumably these are archived by Tameside MBC if any one has access.
Phil Blinkhorn
19/10/12 – 16:48
Were Walsall heavily into short Fleetlines? I remember seeing one/some with no front cantilever. I can’t remember how/where the driver sat! I am often in these congested days puzzled as to why passenger numbers fall and bus sizes rise….
Joe
19/10/12 – 17:34
Walsall had 99 short Fleetlines. The first was only 25′ 7″ with no front overhang and an entrance behind the driver’s position pretty much the layout adopted by forward entrance front engined vehicles. The next 29 were of the same layout but were 27′ 6″ with a front overhang. All of the above had wrap around windscreens on both decks. The next 69 were 28′ 6″ long and were identical in looks to the SHMD vehicles. A comprehensive set of photos can be found by searching Walsall Fleetlines on Flickr. The last supposed Fleetline, actually the unique Daimler CRC6-36, went to to the other extreme with a 36′ length and two staircases.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/10/12 – 06:21
Thanks Phil for confirming my theory on the entrance/exit concept. I always feel that Edgeley Cox was to the bus world what Oliver Bullied was to railways. Both were great innovators and must have been strong personalities in that they got their employers to adopt large numbers of very unusual vehicles (locos in Bullied’s case) where a more standard solution would have almost certainly made more commercial sense. Sorry to digress into the world of flanged wheels on this site but the parallel has always struck me.
Philip Halstead
20/10/12 – 15:03
Since the current posting has mentioned the Walsall short Fleetlines buses I thought you may like to see a couple of shots taken of the preserved Walsall vehicle, which is part of the Wythall collection it was used in 2010 to celebrate the end of trolleybuses in Walsall by following most of their former routes.
Ken Jones
20/11/12 – 05:28
I’m not “into” buses but came across the article on S.H.M.D. Fleetlines, the last six of which seemed to be used a lot on 2-man services like the 125 in the ’70s. Were these buses sent to Glossop after the P.T.E. absorbed the North-Western operation there, to replace the Renowns on conductor-operated routes, while the earlier,’conventional’, 56XX Fleetlines were cascaded out of the area to depots like Leigh-perhaps to replace A.E.C.s there in a similar role? Does anyone know if the ‘preserved’ S.H.M.D. Fleetline that was being kept at Mossley (I think) still exists?
John Hardman
20/11/12 – 11:33
On the last point, I can confirm that Fleetline number 28 is still there, along with PD2 number 5.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Nottingham City Transport 1962 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Park Royal H77F
October 2012 saw the 50th anniversary of the introduction of rear engined buses by Nottingham City Transport. The subject of the image is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX, fleet number 62, registration number 62 NAU. It had a Park Royal H77F body. It was delivered new to NCT on 12.12.62 and entered service on 18.12.62. It is seen here at the Farnborough Road/Pastures Avenue, Clifton Estate, terminus of service 68 when new and is loading passengers for a journey to Broad Marsh Bus Station in Nottingham via Clifton Bridge (service 68 journeys operated by South Notts and West Bridgford UDC ran via Trent Bridge). The large Daimler badges with which 62 and others of the batch (nos 46 to 63) were fitted when delivered were quickly removed and replaced by a Daimler scroll, as there was an air intake at this location and the large badge partially obscured this. This year also saw, on 29th October, the 60th anniversary of the introduction of the joint service operated by NCT, South Notts and WBUDC to Clifton Estate, although the 68 was not introduced until 1956 when the initial development of the estate was nearing completion.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Elliott
With reference to the posting above of 62 NAU when new, here is a view of one of her sisters, 50 NAU, towards the end of her working life. She is seen peering out of the doorway of the Burwell & District depot in Burwell on 25 August 1978. Nottingham’s livery always was one of the smarter ones and the view of 62 does it credit.
Pete Davies
04/12/12 – 16:58
This is a good example of a well applied livery helping to ease the rather brutal lines of the ‘Orion’ derived body design. The tasteful layout of the fleet name and the red wheels set off the green very well. I remember one of this batch coming to Rochdale to be shown to the Transport Committee in the Autumn of 1962. It was probably brand new and was parked outside the Town Hall along with the light blue AEC Renown demonstrator and the Leyland Atlantean demonstrator in Maidstone & District style green and cream. It was just after the 1962 Commercial Motor Show at which the Renown made its debut. Rochdale chose the Fleetline for its next double deck purchases.
Philip Halstead
05/12/12 – 07:39
Interestingly in Pete’s picture 50 NAU has a much more modern windscreen and front panel than 62 yet has retained, or had re-applied, the large Daimler badge.
Eric Bawden
05/12/12 – 07:40
As has been mentioned before on this site, Northern General allowed their subsidiaries a certain amount of independence when it came to vehicle buying and spec. Between 1960 and 62 Percy Main acquired 25 Leyland PDR1/1 Atlanteans, ‘9 Metro Cammell and 16 Roe’ but then while most of the rest of NGT were still ordering Leyland’s Percy Main switched to CRG6LX Daimler Fleetlines. Between 1963 and 68 they took delivery of 35 in total, the first two batches of 10 and 5 were MCW’s and the remaining 20 arrived in three batches of 7 – 3 and 10 and were all Alexander bodied. I could be wrong about this, but I believe orders for more were cancelled when NBC came into being, but from my experience of driving both the Fleetline was a far superior vehicle to the Atlantean, but like the AEC Reliance, the Bristol REL and the FRM Routemaster they didn’t fit into NBC and BL’s ‘master plan’
Ronnie Hoye
05/12/12 – 08:03
50 NAU was fitted with the 1964 pattern windscreen and dash arrangement following accident damage circa 1968/69. From memory it ran off the road on Carlton Hill and hit a house. At the time of the accident it was allocated to Bilborough Depot and was working a ‘works special’.
Michael Elliott
05/12/12 – 09:19
Peter mentioned he was sure someone would comment upon the newer front end on the Burwell vehicle. It looks to me like a ‘Manchester’ lower panel, as Birmingham had on some of theirs towards the end of 1966, but I had no idea why it should have been treated. Thank you, Michael, for enlightening us.
Ronnie, interesting comment about the freedom of operation in the NGT group. I suppose it is hardly surprising that the same degree of freedom seems to have filtered throughout what is now the ‘Go Ahead’ group. There has been discussion on this site in the past about the NBC and BL ‘master plan’, and we all know what happened to both!
Pete Davies
05/12/12 – 10:40
Philip, slightly off topic but was it my imagination that the lower deck window line on all of Rochdale’s Fleetlines was higher than normal or were the wheels smaller? Compare www.flickr.com/ with www.sct61,org.uk/ Back to Nottingham, I often wonder if the department’s development of their own unique body style which, like the various developments or not were at least different and interesting to look at, was a reaction to the bland Orionism of early rear engined bodies or just a determination to be different.
Phil Blinkhorn
05/12/12 – 10:57
Pete, that’s not a Manchester panel, see www.sct61.org.uk/ for the differences
Phil Blinkhorn
05/12/12 – 11:55
Thank you, Phil B
Pete Davies
05/12/12 – 17:54
The Daimler badge fitted to 50 NAU was not the original `large` one, but the shorter version, common on most Fleetlines. I found the appropriate part no. in the Fleetline parts list and ordered 4 from the local BL parts dealer, they duly arrived, price around £18 + VAT and were fitted to 50/53/61/3 NAU. By the time 56 NAU arrived at Burwell, (via Ensign) I had secured a supply of the original `longer` badges that had been supplied to Walsall Corporation, but were too long to fit on the rounded front panels of their `short` Fleetlines. I won`t reveal how much I paid, but it was less than £18 each! (I still have one wrapped in the original VERY sticky waxed paper)
Jim Neale
05/12/12 – 17:55
To answer Phil on the Rochdale Fleetlines, yes you are right they did have the lower saloon window line about a foot higher than normal. The reason was that despite the Fleetline having a drop-centre rear axle, Rochdale adopted a two step entrance with a high floor line throughout the lower saloon. In my view this had two negative affects. Firstly, it made the buses look very ungainly from a three-quarter front view and secondly, as the lower driving position was retained it put the driver in a very intimidating low position against boarding passengers. This must have been an especially uncomfortable position for drivers when later on these buses were used for opo with fare paying passengers towering above them. To me these were some of the ugliest buses ever built and massive contrast to the previous Regent V’s.
Philip Halstead
06/12/12 – 07:12
Thanks Philip. I always thought they were odd. I used to see them regularly in the 1960s and 1970s but was normally driving past them, so couldn’t study them closely, and I never rode on one. They certainly were ungainly looking – not helped by the acres of cream paint, the SELNEC livery, for once did help a bit.
Phil Blinkhorn
06/12/12 – 11:46
Picking up the thread of Philip H’s comments on bad design. The safest layout for stairs on any type of double decker are those were you ascend towards the front of the vehicle. Worst that can happen if the driver anchors up sharply is that anyone on the stairs will either fall forwards if they’re going up, or end up on their backside if coming down, but it’s unlikely they will end up in a heap at the bottom. That said, for some reason know best to whoever ordered them, the second batch of MCW Daimler Fleetline’s delivered to Percy Main JFT 276/80, had the stairs going the other way, in the same case scenario people on the stairs will fall backwards or go head first base over apex, but the only way they can go is in the direction of down. As well as in my opinion being dangerous, the layout also reduced the seating capacity by three, so a bad idea all round I would have thought
Ronnie Hoye
03/10/20 – 10:34
I seem to remember that, when still quite new, 62 NAU became “The Pork Farms bus”, with all advertising space (including LT-style adverts flanking the destination screen) devoted to the local Pork Pie manufacturer. Either this one or 63 carried a green/cream livery applied differently for a while – green lower panels/between deck panels and cream window surrounds and roof, if my memory serves me correctly.
I have just searched for on-line photos of 63 NAU, and it was this one that had the different (experimental?) livery application – proved by a Roy Marshall picture in the Transport Library.
Glasgow Corporation 1963 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Alexander H44/34F
Sorting through my photos recently I came across this shot taken I think in the late sixties in Glasgow. Whilst at a quick glance it looks like any of the Corporations large fleet of Atlanteans. But, a closer look shows it to be D268 their one and only Daimler Fleetline, delivered in 1963 with a body identical to the previously mentioned Atlanteans some of which were delivered with Albion badges. I have a slightly blurred photo of one of these if anyone is interested. Why Glasgow never bought any other Fleetlines in view of the number of CVG,s they had previously bought I do not know, perhaps someone may be able to enlighten me. I vaguely remember taking the photo somewhere near the Botanic Gardens I think, again I am ready to be corrected.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
09/01/13 – 05:42
I’d heard of Kelvingrove, but Kelvindale is a new destination to me.
Looking at this photo now makes me realise the Glasgow Alexander body design was a true classic and probably the most successful of the first generation rear engined body designs. In fact it doesn’t look too dated when set against the modern offerings on the low-floor chassis of today.
Philip Halstead
11/01/13 – 08:06
Somehow, the low height version of the body looked even better and, yes, it wouldn’t look out of place on today’s streets. Other 1960s bodies which would still look up to date would be the Mancunian, especially the 33ft version and the 1968 Park Royal body on Sheffield’s Atlanteans.
Phil Blinkhorn
13/01/13 – 07:37
Phil: I couldn’t agree more about the Mancunian; I was impressed with it from the outset. Although many people deride its squareness, I find it stylish, of its time, and yet timeless. Manchester took the bull by the horns by creating a brand new livery that was totally suited to the body.
Alan Murray-Rust
14/01/13 – 13:17
About Philip H’s comments and the Fleetlines….Have to agree that in design terms, they are probably ‘up there’ with the true classics of their time….I remember the first time I saw a NWRCC example in Mersey Square and standing fixated for what might have been fifteen minutes at just how futuristic they looked compared to everything else around them….But a question to those of you who are far more technical and knowledgeable than myself….Were the windscreens on these Fleetlines the same piece/part/whatever as the those on the NWRCC Alexander bodied PSU3/4R Leopards?? And was the upstairs front windscreen on the Fleetline the same piece/part/whatever as the rear window on the PSU3’s?? I’ve often wondered whether the size/shape of what at the time were fairly huge single pieces of shaped glass just Alexander’s ‘brand design’ or whether it was actually a very clever innovation by them to reduce component/stock requirements in their manufacturing process which just happened to turn out right aesthetically….
Stuart C
14/01/13 – 15:32
Stuart C the answer to both your windscreen questions id yes. Economy sometimes can be translated into a timeless design!!
Phil Blinkhorn
14/01/13 – 15:59
I agree entirely with Philip on the timelessness of this Alexander design. Modern double deck body builders seem to compete with each other to accommodate the greatest area of frontal glass. Replacement costs must be astronomic.
Roger Cox
12/03/13 – 06:33
Stuart, both screens were used on the Alexander Y Type single decker – in fact, the entire GRP moulding of the upper dome was used!
Anon
19/08/13 – 07:20
The bus was based at Maryhill garage from 1964 approx where I was a driver and have driven the Daimler many times on service route 3 which ran from Mosspark to Kelvindale. The Daimler was not first choice of the drivers the doors were operated by way of the gear stick. You had the normal gear change with an additional slot for opening and closing the doors the bus had to be at a halt before you could open or close the doors resulting in late running, hope this helps.
Frank
20/08/13 – 06:32
Truly understand where you are coming from Frank. When I was driving at Swinton for LUT, we had 2 of the first batch of dual doored Daimler Fleetline 33 footers, nicknamed ‘Jumbo’s. They were fleet nos 360 & 361, ATC 273 & 4 J. Although there was no agreement in place with the TGWU for their use as one-manners, Management was adamant and Supervisory staff were were made to frequently check that they were being used, even in crew operation, as dual door buses, in what they saw/said was their ‘pending’ one man introduction. The problem with them, was the Doors ! The front door was air pedal controlled, but the REAR door was electronic, via a sixth gear position on the selector. The gear selector would not move until the rear doors, which had an electrical sensor, confirmed that they had closed. Well, even on the moderately timed 38 service, where they were allocated, this slow & time consuming operation meant that time was lost at every stop. I tried with my guard one day to use a ticket roll to tape off the centre door on a very busy trip (17:20 hours) out of Manchester one evening, but was caught by a ‘checker’ and reported for not using the centre doors. I think I had the last laugh however, as I found that by pushing the ‘Master switch’ to off, the centre doors closed automatically and the gear selector was released ! – but this trick needed two hands to perform. Happy Days
Mike Norris
23/09/13 – 06:00
Diesel Dave thanks for your photo of Daimler D268 you are correct the location is at Botanic Gardens at the intersection of Byres Road and the Great Western Road hidden by the tanker to the left of Daimler D268 is the rest room then used by bus staff for meal breaks.
Frank
24/09/13 – 09:28
On the subject of modern classics I would add the Leeds Roe dual door Fleetlines and Atlanteans to the list together with the ECW body for Olympians and VRs. Anyone any thoughts on these or others to add to the list.
Chris Hough
09/01/17 – 06:49
I used to be a regular schoolboy user of the 3 route. I remember how exciting it was when on one morning at the Kelvindale terminus an “Atlantean” turned out to be Fleetline D268. There never seemed to be as many 3s as 20s or 58s on Great Western Road. I recall once literally praying that a 3 would come. And it did, very promptly, except it wasn’t going to Kelvindale, it was a short working to Botanic Gardens. I’ve often wondered how often these short workings occurred, as I can’t definitely recall any others. Possibly Frank, or someone else, might know.
Moray
04/02/17 – 09:30
I worked as a conductor at Parkhead Garage during 1972/73, and vehicles were often “turned short”, usually due to late running, crew shortage, or vehicle breakdown (by the time a replacement vehicle was put on the road part of the journey would be “lost”). The timetables only listed the theoretical departures from the termini concerned, although estimated journey times between principal stops were also given. However, these referred to rush hour conditions, and the actual running times were often less than those printed in the timetable book. We had a 4 bus allocation on service 38, where the bulk of the journeys were shared between Gartcraig and Newlands. On several occasions when heading back into the city from either Rouken Glen or Clarkston, we would be stopped by the timekeeper at Shawlands Cross and told to change the destination to show “Alexandra Park” instead of Riddrie or Millerston. Our last stop would be outside the Corporation crew “bothy” at St Rollox bowling green in Alexandra Parade, where we should have been relieved by another crew. However, if any of the crew were not available, we would then be instructed to run to Parkhead Garage. We were expected to run there in service along Edinburgh Road, but the reality was (despite the rule book) that Glasgow Corporation buses only picked up on garage journeys when travelling along the recognised route. As one of the bigger garages we had a few duties where we went out to assist on other services, and we would end up on 41s, 64s, and hospital specials on services 11 and 16 Sundays. There were also scheduled crew duplicates on OMO service 55 at peak hours, where we ran back to Parkhead Garage from Barmulloch, showing service 55 all the way eastwards along Duke Street. Great days for people like myself who liked a bit of variety at work. If we actually managed to get 4 buses out on the 38s all day it was a bonus. In later life I did 11 years as a driver for one of the large companies in a rural area, but it was nothing like the old Corporation.
John W
28/03/19 – 07:19
Two years on from the above, but in 1973-4 I lived right by the Botanic Gardens short turning point, which coming from the city was left into Kersland Street, where there was an alighting stop, then first right into Vinicombe Street, and back up Byers Road and back to town. I recall that some 58s, on Saturdays only, were timetabled to do this, other occasions were random. The side streets were lined with parked cars both sides, but the buses squeezed past any oncoming car. One evening peak an Atlantean had unloaded, and turned right into Vinicombe Street, only to come nose-to-nose with, of all things, an Alexander (Midland) PD3 coming the other way, doing a short inward working from Great Western Road and turning by the same streets to go back out of town again. This was an unusual working but happened occasionally. Unfortunately I couldn’t hang around to see how they sorted it out.
Bill
14/05/19 – 06:22
Working at Partick Garage 1969 til 1974 I passed my test at Knights Wood Garage when I turned 21. I drove Leyland Atlanteans including LA1 which is now in the museum. My first driving job was in the evening rush hour on an AEC with neither power nor self centring steering. Today’s drivers would struggle with these vehicles. I am now back in my home city of Nottingham.
North Western Road Car Co 1967 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Alexander H44/31F
Here we have one of a batch of North Western Daimler Fleetlines with an Alexander body. According to the PSV Circle Publication PX3 Post-War Second-Hand British Buses in North America mentions that two of the batch 245 and 247, JDB 245E and JDB 247E became 213 and 215 at City of Oxford Motor Services. They then went to Ensign a dealer in Grays, Essex. 245 in October 1979 and 247 in February, the following year both being exported to World Square, Kailua, Oahu, Hawaii in April 1980. There is a couple of problems with this. First they were F registered (see photo of 245 at Lower Moseley St Bus Station in 1970, about a month before I went to Australia), this of course is most likely a simple typo The second problem is that Kailua is not on Oahu (the main island), Kailua is on “the big island”, Hawaii in the town of Kona and on a visit to World Square in 2004, there was no sign of either of the two North Western Fleetlines, although one shopkeeper did remember them. Does anybody have photos of the Fleetlines at World Square on the big island of Hawaii.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Lynas
03/03/13 – 14:19
I’d imagine that, apart from age, the difficulty of obtaining spares for a defunct manufacturer’s product – as is the case for both engine and chassis – at such a distance would have removed the Fleetlines from service well before 2004. Whilst a Cummins may well have been a suitable alternative engine, new or used, it would most likely have been more cost effective to buy other, newer, vehicles. “Mutton dressed as lamb” or perhaps “All dressed up but nothing to show” springs to mind seeing the photo. 245-248 were painted in coach livery particularly for the X60 in 1970 though they did appear on other services. Paint doesn’t make a coach and patrons still had to sit on bus seats and the drive train was not re-geared so they were not as fast as the Mk3 Lolines with the 5 speed gear box which had regularly appeared on the X60 without the benefit of masquerading as a coach. Still anything was better than making the trip on a Willowbrook bodied K5G which regularly appeared as duplicates on the service up until 1964. Now one of those in coach livery would have been something else!
Phil Blinkhorn
04/03/13 – 08:02
Phil makes some interesting comments about North Western’s “pseudo White Ladies” which prompts me to ask: I know the Ribble, Standerwick and Scout “Gay Hostesses” had upgraded seating, but did they and the White Ladies have alterations to the drive train? Did the White Ladies (the old Titans or the Atlanteans) have upgraded seating? Sadly, I don’t have interior views of the preserved PD2 or Atlantean White Ladies, only exteriors. On from that, I do accept that the ride from Manchester to Blackpool on any vehicle with bus seating will not have been wonderfully comfortable, but it can’t be as bad as an Ambleside Depot HR44 Olympic which turned up at Morecambe Bus Station on the London service one summer Saturday morning in about 1965. No, folks, it wasn’t the luggage hauler!
Pete Davies
04/03/13 – 09:03
As a soft Yorkshireman, and a coach man, weaned on Sheffield United Tours and S J O C coaches, I always went for the idea that even Sheffield – Manchester ought to be run by coaches. I was never impressed by the North Western/Ribble – let alone Yorkshire “J” services – running service buses (often “disguised” as coaches). To see X2 Nottingham – Blackpool with a bus Leopard would not impress me. Bus Leopards, REs or Nationals didn’t impress me when they turned up on the X67 Mansfield – Chesterfield – Manchester workings.
David Oldfield
04/03/13 – 15:08
The original White Ladies bodied by Burlingham and East Lancs had moquette trimmed higher backed than bus seats coach seats, but suffered from the lowbridge layout in so much as the upper deck had four seats across. The Atlantean White Ladies for regional express services, which were more cream than their ancestors, had coach seats with head rests and individual seat frames. At one period in the late 1960s 1272 used to be an almost every weekday sighting for me as it ploughed a constant furrow on the X43 between Skipton and Manchester. The Atlanteans with 59 seats had a fair turn of speed so overtaking them on the de-restricted sections of the A56 was often a matter of fine judgement
Phil Blinkhorn
04/03/13 – 15:13
David, as a Lancastrian both by birth and by residence, I feel honour bound to point out that Yorkshire companies were equally fond of using standard service buses on completely inappropriate express workings. Examples which spring readily to mind are West Yorkshire (Bristol L type saloons on Leeds to Liverpool timings as late as 1964!), Yorkshire Woollen (various ageing service buses also on the X97/99 whenever better vehicles were needed for private-hire/excursion duties), Yorkshire Traction (Saro bodied Tiger Cubs on their share of the Blackpool services)….need I go on? As an enthusiast I used to be quite excited to get one of NWRCC’s Bristol K5Gs on an X97 from Sale to Liverpool (this happened to me twice in 1964/65 – their final year in service – and the chassis on these vehicles were pre-war). I must confess though that the other passengers looked less excited. I agree with you completely about the use of saloons on the X1/X2/X60 interchange. This was little short of a disgrace and all three operators (Ribble/NWRCC/Trent) were guilty of it. I think the ultimate prize for such inappropriate scheduling (apart from the HR44 already mentioned, although from personal experience I suspect that this gave its passengers to something classier at Preston)should go to Boyer – the Leicestershire independent absorbed by Midland Red. They regularly used their pair of Sentinel STC6/44 service buses on their express timings to Blackpool. As much as I love Sentinels this was a step too far!
Neville Mercer
04/03/13 – 17:41
Neville. As I’ve said before, I can be guilty of shorthand language which can be a little unclear. My reference to the Yorkshire J services was my acknowledgement that we were equally guilty on our side. Sorry if I was clear as mud. I only lived in Sale from 1976 – 1981 so missed K5Gs (thank goodness). As one of Bristol’s biggest fans I’m afraid – even in the flat-lands of South Manchester and the Cheshire Plain – only a 6B or 6G would do for me…..
David Oldfield
04/03/13 – 17:42
….And there can be few to rival your knowledge of Sentinels, Neville. Your comprehensive book, with co-author John Howie, on this marque is a masterpiece of research and writing.
Roger Cox
05/03/13 – 06:49
…..or indeed anything Neville turns his hand to…..
David Oldfield
05/03/13 – 06:49
Thank you, Phil. I hope Neville’s correct about transferring passengers from the HR44 at Preston. From what I recall of the Inspector’s answer to a customer, it didn’t seem likely on this occasion.
Pete Davies
05/03/13 – 06:50
Of course, everyone is right about inappropriate vehicles on long distance express services – but actually there were a lot of long routes right across the country that were routinely operated by normal seated buses. At the end of the day it is how long you are sitting in a low-backed bus seat, rather than how far you have travelled, that determines how acceptable it is. I think of the Ribble 555 Keswick – Lancaster service at nearly 3 hours; Western National’s old 18 when it ran all the way from Penzance to St Austell – also 3 hours. I have mentioned before how Lincolnshire often operated the route 3 Lincoln – Cleethorpes (2 hours) with Bristol SC4LK’s. I suspect some of London Transport’s longer central area services also took a couple of hours, though I was never very familiar with them. Obviously, on some of these routes, through passengers would be in the minority – but they were by no means a rarity.
Stephen Ford
05/03/13 – 12:24
I recall that the X60 and other Blackpool services used other operators’ buses on hire in the summer season. In the 1960s, Todmorden JOC used a coach-seated Leopard on hire to Ribble, but if one was not available, the bus-seated version would be used. I’m not sure if TJOC lowbridge Leylands were used previously; if so, they were not that different mechanically from the Ribble “White Ladies” used on the X4 Manchester – Blackpool via Rochdale and Todmorden, which took 3½ hours, although it’s unlikely that many did the full trip.
Geoff Kerr
05/03/13 – 13:48
My thanks to Roger and David for the embarrassing praise! I quite agree with Stephen about the longer stage carriage routes – another one which springs to mind was the 122 from Gravesend to Brighton. Not sure how long it actually took but it seemed endless in a fully loaded ‘decker. I still think that the X2/X60 interchange takes the proverbial biscuit – this clocked in at more than six hours which was a ridiculous amount of time to spend aboard a service bus. Fortunately (as far as I know!) there was no similar scheduling of saloons on the X7/X2/X60 double interchange from Great Yarmouth to Blackpool. But I could be wrong – especially in the case of joint operator Ribble who seemed unable to tell the difference between a coach and a bus. Although I never saw the aforementioned HR44 on the London services I did record a bus-seated PSU3 Leopard at Victoria Coach Station in 1966. OK, it was brand new at the time, but I suspect that the “new bus smell” did little to mollify the passengers who required buttock amputation after the trip. On the other hand the Gay Hostess Atlanteans were not as good as they looked from a passenger comfort viewpoint. Toilet smells tended to permeate the lower deck while those upstairs (even if, like myself, not prone to travel sickness) soon became weary of the pitching and yawing on any road less glamorous (?) than a fully-fledged motorway. You know I love Yorkshire, David – it’s my second favourite county….
Neville Mercer
05/03/13 – 14:39
I must admit that the thought of travelling on the upper deck of a Gay Hostess Atlantean at 60 mph, even on the relatively empty M1 of the 1960s, fills me with trepidation even now. I well remember driving at just under 60 mph in my upright Ford Pop (top speed 65, down hill with a following wind) and being thrown off course with one passing me at speed south of Newport Pagnell. When the next one in a convoy of three appeared in my mirror I slowed down!!
Phil Blinkhorn
06/03/13 – 06:48
I don’t have any information as to running times Etc, but one of the longest routes to use services buses must have been the Western SMT route between Glasgow and Stranraer. It more or less followed the A77, which was, and still is for the most part single carriageway, and by the time it went into and out of every village along the way, it must have been around the 90 mile mark from end to end. I would assume the crews would have been on a part way changeover basis, with three or more depots involved. Can anyone give any details?
Ronnie Hoye
06/03/13 – 06:48
Am I not right in thinking that one of Standerwick’s ‘best’ came to grief on its side on the motorway on one occasion?
Chris Hebbron
06/03/13 – 06:50
My worst journey was returning from a holiday in Leven (Fife) to Glasgow in an Alexander owned, Alexander rebodied with a semi-utility lowbridge TD4 body. The temperature was in the 80s and the bus was packed, with many unhappy young children and parents in need of another holiday!
Jim Hepburn
07/03/13 – 06:42
The mention of operators hiring in vehicles for express services reminded me that many years ago in High Street Heckmondwike I saw one of Bradford Corporations AEC Reliance on hire to Hebble returning from Blackpool.
Philip Carlton
07/03/13 – 10:44
I can help you there, Ronnie. as, in my RAF National Service days, I travelled on it (to & from Cairnryan) several times in mid-1958 to spend weekends in Glasgow. The total distance is about 90 miles. The journey took four hours, with a stop for crew-change, re-fuelling and passenger “toileting” inside Ayr Depot, some fifty miles into the journey. From Stranraer to Ayr, it was very scenic. It was a two-hourly service and Western SMT used new”ish tin-fronted Leyland PD2″s with lowbridge Northern Counties bodies on the route. It was pretty well patronised, but few passengers rode for more than about 25% of the journey. The other long”ish routes I used to do was Southdown 31 from Southsea to Brighton (52) and the A&D (24?) from Petersfield to Guildford (30 miles) and Red & White 73 from Gloucester to Newport (48), originally to Cardiff, later only to Chepstow, now just to Lydney!
Chris Hebbron
07/03/13 – 10:48
In the longest journeys class would be the joint United / SMT routes from Newcastle to Glasgow and Edinburgh; these were stage carriage most of the way, and indeed the only bus service in many parts. I believe they would normally be either service buses or at best ‘dual-purpose’. The 15 from Newcastle to Glasgow took 7 1/2 hours (or 8 including the summer only extension to Whitley Bay)although this did include a comfort break and crew change at Galashiels.
David Todd
07/03/13 – 17:04
Not sure about the Atlanteans but in 1974 one of Standerwick’s Bristol VRL coaches overturned on the M1 near Luton causing 3 deaths and some serious injuries. Incidentally the only time I used a Standerwick Atlantean on the Colne to London service it broke down on the M1. Numerous other trips with Leopards passed without incident.
Paragon
07/03/13 – 17:30
I’d agree with PARAGON on this. I’ve never heard of one of the Atlanteans falling over, but I do recall one of the VRLs doing that trick. Am I right in thinking they moved on shortly afterwards?
Pete Davies
07/03/13 – 17:59
The Standerwick VRL accident arose when the driver attempted to avoid a lamp standard that was leaning across the carriageway resulting from a crash by an articulated lorry just in front of the coach. The VRL and its passengers – sadly 3 killed and 30 injured – were essentially the victims of circumstances outside their control.
Roger Cox
08/03/13 – 07:15
I think it is correct that one of the Standerwick Gay Hostess (i.e. Atlantean) coaches finished on its side somewhere down the M1. This would be the late 1960s, it is my understanding that the driver involved was Burnley-based, and that he was still at that depot in 1970/71 when I was on Laycock’s.
David Call
30/03/13 – 14:09
The Standerwick decker we immediately think of allegedly dropped into the (in those days) soft central strip which led to a few control problems! if it was the same one the story was that he’d taken evasive action to avoid an artic which had, or was in the process of, jackknifing. In these days of tachos and pedestrian progress imposed by Brussels it is difficult to relate to the speed a Standerwick decker “flew” at, we were scheduled to average 70 on a “Z” you saw a white dot in offside mirror which grew and grew, they then blasted past like you were standing still! Allegedly, (and no reason to doubt it) they used a full set of brakes in a fortnight, as far as I know they didn’t have retarders, didn’t they come later on in life? The economics of decker coaches at the time was against them as 51 seaters were just coming in and they could only carry sixty, there were also fun and games in London as they couldn’t (but at least one tried!!) get through Sammy’s
Pete Bradshaw
26/05/15 – 06:42
Regarding North Western’s “pretend” White Ladies. I can’t remember now. Were they delivered in fleet livery (mainly red)? I thought so up to now.
Bob Bracegirdle
26/05/15 – 11:02
245-248 were delivered in fleet livery and were painted in 1970 for the Blackpool express service.
Stephen Howarth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/02/20 – 07:27
Here is a picture of 245 taken in Manchester in June 1970. The fixed glazing apart from the openings on the last window on each deck must have made for dubious ventilation characteristics.
Roger Cox
12/02/20 – 16:42
With the exception of the Bedford VALs, all North Western deliveries, both single and double deckers, from 1964 to 1971 had forced air ventilation of one form or another. The system certainly worked when new and presumably continued to provide satisfactory ventilation as only 2 Fleetlines were delivered without the system. An experimental Compas heating and ventilation system was installed on 188 and 189, delivered in 1965, but this was not used for the 1967 deliveries which reverted to the system as installed on previous vehicles and 245.
Birmingham City Transport 1965 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX MCCW H39/33F
BON 541C is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6 with Metropolitan Cammell body, new to Birmingham City Transport in 1965, with fleet number 3541. On the formation of West Midlands PTE, all she had was a change of lettering in what some of the neighbouring authorities considered to be a take-over by Birmingham. We see her at Elmdon Airport on 23 July 1977, ready to return to High Street on the 58. I liked the use of the third blind, showing TO CITY or FROM CITY, but I know not everyone did.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
22/08/13 – 17:44
Needs a picture like this to remind me I came to Birmingham in 1970 to Aston University and travelled on buses like this every day from my digs in the suburbs. I also like the to/from city when used, it helped give directions to fellow students. Forty years this year since I graduated and that’s 4 years before this picture was taken – thanks for bringing back my unversity memories. In 1977 I would be involved in the Queen’s Jubilee – more memories.
Ken Jones
23/08/13 – 06:20
Thanks for the comment, Ken. I was a student at Saltley mid to late 60’s. This view was captured during a lunch stop on my way up to the Lake District.
Pete Davies
23/08/13 – 15:36
Peter’s shot also reminded me of my days in Brum. In a previous life I worked (28 years) for Woolworth. From 1970 – 1972 I was Deputy Manager of the New Street branch. As I lived near Hagley Road I would use the 6 (Sandon Road), 7 (Portland Road) or 9 (Quinton). Whilst these were often served by the old Birmingham standards, evenings and weekends would be rear-engined buses. These were more comfortable than the 7’6″ standards but lacked the character. Thanks for posting this shot Peter.
Les Dickinson
23/08/13 – 15:37
Interesting comment about the West Midlands PTE being a virtual Birmingham take-over particularly in terms of the livery. This applied to some extent with all the first four PTE’s with the exception of SELNEC. Liverpool green in various hues dominated on Merseyside after initially allowing Birkenhead’s blue to continue on the Wirral for a while and South Shields disappeared in a sea of Yellow on Tyneside. The livery here was virtually Newcastle Corporation with a new logo. Only in the north west did something completely different come out of the hat with SELNEC’s dazzling Sunglow Orange and White. You either loved it or hated it but you definitely could not ignore it.
Philip Halstead
23/08/13 – 17:48
Thanks for your comments, Les and Philip. One of my friends hails from Wolverhampton and becomes very cross when people comment on his “Brummy” accent. The polite bit of his reply – very apt for this site – includes “I’m not a Brummy. I’m a Wulfrunian!”
Pete Davies
23/08/13 – 17:49
To be fair to the MPTE the Liverpool livery only survived on that side of the Mersey while the Wirral had a composite of Birkenhead and Wallasey colours. When a standard MPTE livery was finally imposed the Verona Green was a very different shade of green applied far more sparingly than the overall LCPTD green livery.
Rob McCaffery
23/08/13 – 19:11
The ‘To/From City’ display was because BCT did not change blinds at the outer terminus, so a bus on the 9 would still be showing Quinton, even when heading into the City! This was partly mitigated by each bus stop flag displaying To or From City as appropriate. The To/From blind was thus some sort of progress.
Tony Martin
24/08/13 – 11:51
The Birmingham policy on not changing destination blinds at outer termini is a strange one. How did it work on cross-city routes? Destination blinds can throw up some strange and interesting quirks. Hull for example for many years did not show an end destination at all, only a ‘via’ blind was shown under the route number for the main road served. Salford didn’t have the word ‘Salford’ on its blinds at all as all the inner city termini were either over the Irwell in Manchester or branded as ‘Victoria’ for their bus station by the old Manchester Exchange station. I once heard that a publicity photo was being taken for a new delivery of Salford buses and to show the city’s name in the destination space required the word to be pasted onto the negative by artwork. (Obviously it was well before the age of digital trickery!).
Philip Halstead
24/08/13 – 15:20
On BCT’s cross city routes, buses always showed the ultimate destination. The to/from city on bus stop flags was considered enough.
Tony Martin
25/08/13 – 06:35
Tony, am I right in thinking that at least some of the Cross City services had – for example – 15 Handsworth in one direction and 16 Selly Oak in the other? What many folk must have found utterly confusing was the idea of setting the blind at SERVICE EXTRA but not showing a number. It seems to have died out – fortunately – when the last buses with service number and destination on one roll were withdrawn!
Pete Davies
25/08/13 – 08:50
‘Victoria’ was used on Salford’s blinds for intra urban routes. Longer distance routes from Bolton, Warrington etc showed ‘Manchester’ as the destination though they terminated in Salford albeit often at the dingy Greengate tunnel adjacent to Victoria bus station. I believe that ‘Salford’ only appeared in the destination boxes on the covers of such publications as timetables. Manchester buses never showed ‘Manchester’ in the final destination box save for service 6 from Glossop which detailed ‘Manchester’ and in very small print, Lower Mosley Street (the only MCTD route to terminate there).
Orla Nutting
25/08/13 – 08:50
Many Tilling and BET companies had the policy of using a combination of the route number and “duplicate” with no destination shown. Useful no doubt for any inspector along the route but pointless for the intending passenger, especially in seaside and other holiday areas where heavy loadings in summer saw the practice in wide use.
Phil Blinkhorn
25/08/13 – 11:29
Orla, whilst you are 100% correct regarding the Salford blinds, Manchester Chorlton St appeared on the blinds of the half decker airport buses when the city terminus was moved there from Royal Exchange and a regular headway was introduced rather than the flight specific service that had operated previously. The destination was an addition to the existing blind. When in later years the service was numbered 200 and operated by Bedford VALs the same destination appeared . All airport services were operated by Parrs Wood depot. All service buses running into Chorlton St showed “Manchester Chorlton St”. The routes involved during the 1960s were 19 from Hattersley (Hyde Rd depot), 20/20X from Woodford/Poynton (Birchfields depot), 31 from Bramhall (Parrs Wood depot), 33 from Greave, 33X from Stockport Andrew Sq, 34 from Romiley (all Hyde Rd depot), 59 from Shaw (Queens Rd/Rochdale Rd depots), 74 from Stockport Vernon Park (Parrs Wood depot), 121 Langley (Queens Rd/Rochdale Rd), 124 from Haughton Green, 125 from Old Glossop, 126 Haughton Green (all Hyde Rd), 148X from Wythenshawe Civic Centre (Northenden depot), 152 from Sales Woodheys (Princess Rd depot), 160 from Denton Moorfield Estate (Hyde Rd depot), 207/208/209 all from Hattersley (Hyde Rd depot), 500 from Alderley, 503 from Adswood Greyhound (both Parrs Wood). Admittedly photos showing blinds set to the destination are uncommon due in part to the restricted use of the facility before it was then encased by a multi-storey car park which almost precluded photography due to the stygian gloom. “The Manchester Bus” has a Burlingham bodied Tiger Cub half decker displaying the blind on page 232 and an Aberdonian on page 357. The Colours of Greater Manchester has a blue Tiger Cub showing the destination on page 18.
Phil Blinkhorn
As a rider to my previous post, all the routes for which the Manchester Chorlton St destination was shown, with the exception of the 148X, originated outside the city boundaries and this may have been the reason -though routes from outside to Piccadilly, Cannon St, Stevensons Sq, Albert Sq or Exchange never had the need to show Manchester.
Phil Blinkhorn
25/08/13 – 16:08
Manchester did eventually make good on the services to Saddleworth at least as I have pictures of PD2s showing Manchester Stevenson Square, but these are in late SELNEC and GMT days. There had no doubt been a need for new blinds to cover new destinations and these would be the same as fitted to the rest of the fleet. They were certainly more modern blinds. Having thus made good the Manchester-centred approach reared its head again in the eighties, when buses terminating at the Manchester Arndale Centre showed “Arndale” as the destination. This despite the fact that there at least two other Arndales in the Manchester area to my knowledge at Middleton and Stretford.
David Beilby
25/08/13 – 18:02
Yes, BCT cross city routes used different numbers according to direction. But still confusing for strangers!
Tony Martin
26/08/13 – 14:24
Amiss of me not to mention that the situation on the Manchester blinds was only prior to the opening of Chorlton Street bus station. Thanks for the correction.
Orla Nutting
26/08/13 – 17:06
I spent many hours travelling the 28 in Birmingham and that never changed numbers and often was a open platform bus. I did it as it was one of the longest routes across the city, and conductors told me no-one does the whole route [well except students with nothing better to do] so passengers don’t need to know if it’s going to the city or not as there are quicker services. Passengers used it mainly to get from one suburb to another. Then we had the 28E which only went part of the route and we still have the famous 11A, 11C and 11E.
Back to the picture and here’s 3913 built in 1969, it was one of the final batch of buses ordered by Birmingham Corporation but delivered to WMPTE immediately after its formation and now preserved at Wythall Transport Museum it is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX with a Park Royal H47/33D body.
Ken Jones
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
28/08/13 – 05:45
I seem to remember Leicester was another city that specialised in cross city routes, that were numbered differently in opposite directions according to ultimate destination. I never knew the network well, but seem to remember that Eyres Monsell in one direction, became Stocking Farm in the other, with completely different (and non-sequential) numbers.
Stephen Ford
02/09/13 – 05:54
Stephen, towards Eyres Monsell 88, towards Stocking Farm 54 BUT only if crossing the City Centre – journeys terminating in the City Centre showed the outward number. The City Centre – Eyres Monsell section (88) was joint with BMMO, but operated entirely by LCT . . . as indeed were all other “joint services”, operated solely by one or the other partner. Returning to Birmingham, am I right in thinking that on the joint Dudley Road services BMMO had special “lazy displays” which showed eg. “Birmingham & Dudley”? What was BCTs practice on its share – did it persist with just showing the outward destination?
Philip Rushworth
09/10/14 – 10:02
I don’t remember this not changing destinations at all. Perhaps it’s because I used the circular routes often instead of crossing the city and on those routes the terminus markers were much more important if one wanted to get all the way to one’s destination? I have no idea how many routes Birmingham had back then and I was very young in 1965. My memories would be mostly of a handful of routes I used travelling cross-city to and from school in the 70s but I don’t remember ever being confused about a route or destination. I could well imagine, however, drivers pressed for time running late, just not bothering to change the destination at the terminus.
Adrienne O’Toole
09/10/14 – 17:26
From 1956, Newcastle Transport had a trolleybus service that may have been unique in the wonderment of its route and the numbering changes along it. In one direction it was a 43 changing to 36 part way through the journey and in the other direction 44 changing to 33… It ran from Osborne Road to the Central (railway) Station and on its way passed through the city centre TWICE. The overall journey time was 53 minutes, service frequency being every ten minutes, seven days a week. Well, it was a long time ago! Imagine a lower case letter ‘d’. Osborne Road terminus is at the top of the stem of the letter and the city centre is the lower half of the stem. Just before reaching the tail at the bottom of the stem (where the Central Station was situated) the service ran off in a long clockwise circle through the western suburbs of Elswick, Benwell, Denton and Fenham, returning to the city centre, running down the stem for the second time then terminating at the Central. The service was bidirectional and its numbering was: 43 Osborne Road to Denton Road, 36 Denton Road to Central Station in one direction and 44 Central Station to Fenham, 33 Fenham to Osborne Road in the other. The change of service number en route in each direction avoided confusion for passengers waiting in that part of Grainger Street along which each vehicle passed twice. Oddly this change of number occurred at different locations in the two directions, just over a mile apart, but it was common practice for crews to change the blinds well before these official locations, putting the separation out to nearer two miles! All this came about when the new Slatyford Lane Depot was opened and the associated new wiring along Silver Lonnen was utilised to link two existing services (the 33 and 36) into something much bigger.
With – Newcastle Corporation 1963 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Alexander H44/34F
565 CRW; 1963 H44/34F Alexander bodied Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX demonstrator: Over the years, Newcastle Corporation had quite a number of Daimlers, both double and single deck, with a variety of bodies from different coachbuilders, but with the demise of the half cab in favour of front entrance rear engine buses they stayed very firmly entrenched in the Leyland camp. However, that’s not to say that they didn’t dip a toe in the water. This Daimler demonstrator pictured at Tynemouth is on loan to Newcastle Corporation. The service 11 ran from Newcastle Haymarket to Tynemouth, and was shared by NCT and NGT’s Percy Main depot. When it first started in 1928, the operating licences were divided equally between Newcastle Corporation, Tynemouth and District Transport, and Wakefields Motors Ltd. Wakefields subsequently became part of the NGT group, but all their operators licences remained in their name, so officially, three Percy Main vehicles on this route either had to carry the Wakefields name, or display an ‘On hire to Wakefields’ sticker, needless to say, this was a formality that was frequently overlooked.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
24/02/14 – 07:50
Two Demonstrators were shown at the 1960 Commercial Motor Show, one was a chassis, the other a CRD6 model, with chassis No.60000, the well known 7000HP, in Birmingham City Transport livery, shown above.
This bus later ended up with the Blue Bus Services (Tailby and George) fleet at Willington in Derbyshire, and was totally destroyed in the disastrous fire in January 1976. See here:- www.stephenhowarth.co.uk/
Blue Bus Services (Tailby and George) also took 5 more Fleetlines one of which was the first production chassis – 60003, bodies by Northern Counties in 1962, 324 YNU. Seen here in the 3rd picture negotiating flood waters (just shows they are not a modern problem as the press would have us think), on the Derby to Burton via Etwall service, later to be numbered 46 by Derby Borough Transport on the takeover by that concern in 1974.
Stephen Howarth
25/02/14 – 14:42
Thanks for posting this, Ronnie. I found it rather intriguing! The vehicle shown is, indeed 565 CRW, and I have a bought colour shot of her in a livery with slightly more cream. What intrigues me is that I have vague memories of a Daimler/Alexander demonstrator with an awkwardly similar registration, namely 595 CRW. Were there really two of them, or is my memory card in need of replacement???
Pete Davies
25/02/14 – 17:14
Here‘s another demonstrator on the 11 Tynemouth to Newcastle, arriving at the Haymarket. Photo by Bob Mack. Atlantean SGD 669 started life as Glasgow Corporation LA91 then returned to Leyland for use as a demonstrator, afterwards moving on to the Fishwick fleet in Leyland as their no. 34. IIRC it was in Newcastle during 1964, AFTER the Corporation had committed to this style of bodywork in 1963 on the first trolleybus replacement Atlanteans (1-12 JVK) so I’m not sure what it was demonstrating at the time! Or was it working with Tynemouth, Ronnie? Does anyone know why this vehicle was chosen for its wider role? Did it initially have any features different from the Glasgow standard? I think (fatal!) that its green panels were changed to matching yellow for its time in Newcastle, so perhaps other modifications happened as well. Did it run in Glasgow colours while in Halifax?
Tony Fox
26/02/14 – 07:40
Glasgow had loaned different Atlanteans to Leyland for demonstration work. Theirs were 30′-8″ long and with this stylish Alexander body would have conveyed the modern image of a bus that Leyland would wish to portray. Glasgow and Leyland came to an agreement to part with LA91, replaced later with LA202, presumably to make a vehicle immediately available to Leyland. A six-month wait would risk letting Daimler seize the opportunity. As a demonstrator its Glasgow livery was certainly changed to one more like the Newcastle one, without the green. I am pretty sure there was no 595 CRW, or at least a Fleetline with that number, but 565 CRW certainly demonstrated in two liveries as it appeared at Halifax in both guises.
David Beilby
26/02/14 – 07:41
Can’t say for certain, Tony. I started at Percy Main in January 1967, so this was before my time, however, by 1963, T&D had 22 PDR1/1’s, which was roughly a quarter of the D/D fleet. In 1963, they took delivery of the first of two batches of Weymann bodied CRG6LX Fleetlines, followed by three batches of Alexander bodied versions in 65/7&8. I lived close to Percy Main depot, and took a keen interest in what went on. From memory, demonstrators were usually to be found working the very busy stop start Whitley Bay to Lobley Hill Gateshead service 1, which was a greater test of stamina than the equally busy but less demanding service 11. If you want my opinion, I would say that it was with NCT rather than Tynemouth.
Ronnie Hoye
26/02/14 – 07:43
Pete, there were no other Fleetline demonstrators around at the time of 565 CRW. I think it replaced 4559VC, a Northern Counties-bodied example which went on to spend many years with Procter’s of Hanley. Tony, although SGD 669 is nowadays widely-referred to as being ‘ex-Glasgow’, I have to cast doubt on the notion that it actually reached there. Leyland had already, on separate occasions, borrowed two Glasgow Atlanteans, I think they were LA6 and LA83. It was then announced that Glasgow had agree to ‘sell’ LA91 – but it is my recollection that at that time deliveries had not reached that point, and, if that was the case, LA91 would still be in build. Also, it does seem unlikely that Leyland would buy back an already-delivered vehicle when identical ones were still being completed at the rate of, probably, two a week. SGD 669 took up its demonstration duties in mock Newcastle Corporation livery – there again, why repaint a bus after a week or two in service, when one could be painted to order from scratch? You’ll see that I said Glasgow had agreed to ‘sell’ LA91 – but it was ultimately replaced by LA152, which was effectively added to the next order for fifty similar buses. So the situation would appear to have been a bit more involved than a simple ‘sale’. To the question of whether it ran in Halifax in Glasgow colours, I’m obviously doubting that it ever received those colours, and I’m pretty certain that it didn’t do any demonstrating in them. There’s actually already a page on OBP devoted to SGD 669. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=581
David Call
26/02/14 – 07:45
When the Atlantean was demonstrated in Aberdeen it was painted yellow and cream Newcastle style. From memory it had also been in France, the wording on the offside was “Ici Le Leyland Atlantean 78 places”. 565 CRW saw service with both Grahams of Paisley and Moffat and Williamson of Gauldry.
Stephen Bloomfield
26/02/14 – 12:10
565 CRW demonstrated at Halifax three times. The first time, in April 1964, it was in a different livery to that depicted above, using a deep brownish maroon and a rich cream. It returned to Halifax in October 1964 to demonstrate to Hebble in the same livery. It returned to the Corporation again in September 1965, by which time it had been repainted in the Edinburgh style with a lighter, more Edinburgh-like red, but with more of an ivory relief colour, rather than Edinburgh’s white. It paid a longer third visit in August/September 1966, just prior to the Corporation’s own first Fleetlines being delivered, still in the same livery. I think much of its extended stay involved some engineering familiarisation. SGD 669 demonstrated to Halifax in May/June 1964. It was in a Newcastle-style livery, and I recall the interior was rather plain with a lot of darkish green rexene. It returned to the area to demonstrate to Hebble in October/November 1964. There is a nice photo of it working for Halifax Corporation here: www.sct61.org.uk/hxsgd699
John Stringer
26/02/14 – 13:06
Something has just struck me regarding the Alexander body. On such a modern design for the period, why did they continue with rear mudguards when others had abandoned them? It looks particularly odd given the lack of matching ones for the front wheels.
Phil Blinkhorn
26/02/14 – 14:11
If memory serves, Phil, the rear wings were rubber, and so less prone to accidental damage when removing the wheels, especially the inners.
Ronnie Hoye
27/02/14 – 07:38
Here is Daimler Fleetline 565 CRW in King Cross Road, Halifax en route from Hebden Bridge to Brighouse when on hire to HPTD in the summer of 1965. The picture was taken late in the evening when I spotted the bus and just managed to get off a shot (with entirely guessed exposure settings) as I walked home, hence the indifferent quality of the picture.
Roger Cox
28/02/14 – 07:54
The hopper windows were uncommon in those days, I can’t recall any local Operators using them (ECW fitted them to Lodekkas etc). Was this body tagged on to one for regular Alexander users (Glasgow or SBG?) Maybe they specified them? They look much neater tan sliders.
Ian Wild
01/03/14 – 13:36
565 CRW had an A-type body with body number A/1363. Alexander’s body numbering was a bit erratic at the time as they kept changing the system, but the only other A-types ordered around the same time seem to have been A/1663 for AA, Ayr (XSD 430); A/1963 for McGill, Barrhead (AHS 16B); A/2063 for Graham, Paisley (HXS 864). Looking at photos of these three on the web show that all had normal sliding windows.
John Stringer
29/06/14 – 07:17
I am sure 565 CRW worked for Harper Bros (Heath Hayes) as a demonstrator for a while in the mid sixties, but if my memory is correct there was a lot more cream livery on it then.
Keith Harley
20/11/15 – 14:12
Significant information just published in Buses Mag December 2015 page 84 reveals that 565 CRW was shown at 1963 Scottish Motor Show in Glasgow Corporation colours, finished to Glasgow spec. Having a life-long interest in Fleetlines I was not aware of this but Alan Millar confirms this was the case. Buses Illustrated January 1964 issue page 7 states “By the time this column went to press no order had been placed by G.C.T. for another Fleetline” (GCT already had SGD 730, new in May 1963) “But the Show model was finished in G.C.T. colours and to G.C.T. specification” Has anyone seen a picture of 565 CRW in Glasgow colours?
Jim Neale
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
25/10/16 – 14:22
I always liked that Alexander body style on Atlanteans and Fleetlines. Bury had 15 on Fleetline chassis, 117-131, later Selnec 6317-31. They were the only ones in the combined fleet after the PTE took over with the highbridge version of the body, although North Western had quite a few with the low height version. Bury had one of those for a short time, YJA 2, in overall advertising livery for Quicks for Ford.
Midland Red (Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co) 1969 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LXB Alexander H45/30D
Midland Red 6225, UHA 225H, is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LXB with Alexander H45/30D body, and was new in 1969. It has been restored into West Midlands livery and I include a picture of it’s Gardner engine. Both of the shots were taken last weekend at the AMRTM (Aston Manor) running day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
30/03/14 – 13:08
One of the Fleetlines at Southgates Garage was fitted with a Leyland pneumatic Gear change pedestal instead of the usual electric gear shift. This made for much smoother gear changes, I don’t know if it was a one off experiment or not but it was certainly an improvement.
Tony Gallimore
02/04/14 – 16:54
As a Fleetline Fan and driver at Lancashire United in the 70’s, there was absolutely nothing wrong at all with the Fleetlines Daimatic semi automatic gearbox. Had you been a passenger whilst I was driving, you be hard put to tell any of my gear changes, upwards or downwards, apart from the revs changing. No need to put anything of Leyland origins in any Daimler buses!
Mike Norris
03/04/14 – 07:46
Totally agree, Mike. My experience with the ‘pedestal’ Leyland Pneumocyclic box showed that it was very slow in responding to movement of the gear selector lever. Smooth gear changes required one to anticipate the action of the gearbox. To change gear upwards, one had to move the lever into neutral and only then release the accelerator, pause, then engage the next gear position, and pause again before pressing the accelerator again. Similarly, changing down meant selecting neutral whilst still holding the accelerator, blipping the engine, moving the lever into the next gear down and only then pressing the accelerator again. Lazy drivers not bothered about this would give a snatchy ride and wear out the gearbox brakebands. The SCG gearbox and its licensed versions always gave instantaneous response to gear lever movements.
Roger Cox
05/04/14 – 07:15
I have to agree that uncomfortable and unpleasant gear changes on semi-automatic gear boxes were, assuming the gearbox was properly maintained, almost certainly due to lazy driving techniques and a lack of pride in doing the job to the best of ones ability with management either unaware or uncaring of this habit plus it annoyed those who did do their very best. The Leyland direct air operated gear change did need the technique so accurately described by Roger but was by no means as difficult to master as it may sound and I came to enjoy using it perhaps because it needed that little extra thought to get the best out of it.
Diesel Dave
06/04/14 – 08:32
Midland Red had three classes of Fleetline/Alexanders. The first 50 arrived in 1963 and were classed DD11. During 1966 to 1968 a total of 149 very similar Fleetlines, class DD12. Finally, between 1969 and 1971 came the DD13s – 103 in all, including UHA 225H. The DD13s had centre exits and also Gardner 6LXB engines, which gave a rather better performance than the 6LXs in the other two classes. Many, possibly most, DD12s were retrofitted with pneumocyclic gearboxes by the early 1970s, as described by Tony Gallimore. I have never found out why. No DD11s or DD13s were so converted as far as I know. I seem to recall that in the 1980s a handful of Fleetlines that Midland Red South obtained from West Riding had pneumocyclic gearboxes. Was this correct or am I mistaken?
Peter Hale
20/04/14 – 16:07
I, too, liked the pedestal-change conversion on the DD12. It was located by your left hip and encouraged you to sit more upright when driving, doing wonders for back and shoulders! The DD11s were probably excluded due to age, and the DD13s because of the exit door control. Does anyone remember DD11 5261 when it was powered by a BMMO 10.5 engine? Any facts, particularly from engineering staff, gratefully received.
Allan White
23/04/14 – 05:34
With regards to the comment on DD1 5261 I remember this vehicle during my early teens when I was a Midland Red enthusiast, it was based at Sutton Coldfield and could be seen on the 160 family of services at peak times, in my opinion it out performed the other dd11’s but was extremely noisy in the lower deck, another of my favourite buses was D9 prototype 4773 located to Sheepcote Street ( a regular performer on the above services), really miss those great days, sadly left the Birmingham area in 1967.
Steve
06/05/14 – 07:41
Re. Peter Hale 6/IV: Midland Red (South) acquired 4 of the PHL XXXK Northern Counties-bodied Fleetlines from WRAC in 1985. Unfortunately, I can’t comment on the transmission. However, I do remember travelling from Oadby into Leicester in early 1985 aboard one of Midland Fox’s ex-Yorkshire ECW-bodied LHD XXXK Fleetlines: what struck me was that gear selection was by a Leyland pneumocyclic selector, which was mounted to the side of the instrument housing (where you’ld expect to find the smaller SCG selector) . . . and selection was automatic (as the selector lever was left in the same position throughout the journey. (Trent’s Fleetlines DRC536-551J [536-551] had a similar arrangement.) And yes, my memories have been stirred by “Midland Red in NBC Days”, (Geenwood/Roberts, Ian Allan,) which I picked up at the weekend.
Philip Rushworth
25/06/14 – 08:29
A lot of the D12 class Fleetlines had the Leyland style pedestal changes, but not all. It’s never been quite clear if it was a Midland Red modification. Regardless of gear selector type, the gearbox remained the same. The fierceness or otherwise of the gearchanges is down to the setting of a valve which regulates the pressure of the air being supplied to the gearbox, via the EP Valve.(the pedestal changes had the EP valve built in). This regulator valve was adjustable, and they were frequently set wrongly :in those days companies overhauled their own units, valves etc, and when the regulator valves were assembled, the adjuster screw would just be screwed in and locked in any old position. A test rig would have been needed to set the pressure correctly, and nobody was going to build one for something like this. So valves were fitted to buses and the pressure would often be set too high causing fierce changes. Likewise no-one was going to go to the trouble of fitting a pressure gauge into the line on the bus to get the pressure right, so it was down to trial and error, if anybody could be bothered. I remember when WMPTE Stourbridge Garage closed and Oldbury inherited their National 2’s – they used to leap in the air almost the gearchanges were so bad. Once they were all adjusted the difference was remarkable and it was impossible to get a bad change then, no matter how you tried.
I’ve just noticed that the engine shot of 6225 reveals it has been retro-fitted with an air accelerator, using the same make of rear cylinder as found on National 1 (510), prototype Metrobus, and others. No doubt this has been done because of a stiff throttle: the most common cause of this was the accelerator pedal heel/hinge becoming dry and seizing up over time. Seems a lot of trouble to go to, especially as you don’t have the same amount of control as with the hydraulic system normally fitted.
Mark
25/06/14 – 18:04
The comment about the transmission on the ex.Yorkshire Woollen ECW bodied Fleetlines at Midland Fox surprised me. They must have had their transmissions altered by their new owners because when they were at YWD they had normal four speed gearboxes with a 5th position on the gear lever to open the entrance door.
Philip Carlton
27/09/14 – 07:07
I am of an age where I remember the DD12 & DD13 buses running with Midland Red (later Midland Red East and Midland Fox) in Leicester. Three buses of these types that spring to mind that regularly worked my local routes were GHA 429D, SHA 870G & UHA 207H. They were nice buses but rattled well from what I can recall.
Kieron Willans
29/09/14 – 07:37
Re. Philip Carlton 25/06 (and sorry to have taken so long to have replied – I must have missed the post): it was how unusual this feature (direct pneumocyclic selection) was that struck me – I must have used vehicles from this batch once or twice in Yorkshire, but never noticed that . . . so I suspect Philip is right, that Yorkshire’s LHD XXXK Fleetlines were modified after arrival at Midland Fox. Why? it seems an awful lot of expense on already long-in-the-tooth hardware.
Philip Rushworth
01/03/17 – 06:32
Having both being a conductor and a driver for BMMO in the 60s I have driven most of the buses used during this period D9 buses I found to be very stable much more than the Leyland that were purchased, these were terrible in windy conditions especially when winds were blowing between houses, you could often be on the wrong side of the road. The Leyland National also difficult to pull onto bus laybys when there was a line of raised “bricks”/kerbstones when the road was wet no such trouble with BMMO. Having the front wheels set back as the D9s were meant a much smaller turning circle. Disc brakes fitted in 1959 for C5s etc how advanced can you get most cars of that era did not have these.4943/4 both at Stafford at the end of there life another innovation engine under the floor better balance than rear engines of Leyland Fleetline which were very light at the front.
Graham Millard
01/03/17 – 12:07
Moving away from the transmission to the bodywork, when Alexander initially designed the A style body back in 1962, it incorporated the windshield and upper deck front windows that were supplied on the Y series coach body as windshield and rear window respectively. I can understand why BMMO specified the easily fitted split windscreen as replacement of the original after damage could be costly, but why go to the trouble and expense of redesigning the upper deck window arrangement? No other BET company operating the Alexander body seemed to have trouble with that the upper deck window and none to my knowledge either followed the BMMO redesign or made changes of their own.
