BYJ 904 is an Austin K8CVC with Plaxton C14F bodywork, dating from 1952. She was new to Dickson and is seen here on Southsea Common for the rally on 11 June 1995. According to the PSVC list for 2012, she has emigrated to the Netherlands as BE-67-57.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
15/11/21 – 07:06
Not sure that BYJ 904 became BE-67-57 in Netherlands, that number went onto a Bedford OB DJD 217. From my records the Austin K8 was sold in Bonhams auction in 7/08 to the Louwman Museum, Den Haigh.
The Dutch reg for BYJ 904 is BE-62-33 NOT BE-67-57 its in the Louwman Museum, Leidsestraatweg, La Haye
We start with a conflict. The PSVC entry for 2012 says LVO 530 was new to Lees, Worksop, while Jenkinson’s book of 1978 say it was new to Symes, Devonshire Hill. While the sources agree that t is an Austin K8 with Kenex body, PSVC says it is of the C12F layout, but Jenkinson says it is of C14F layout. Jenkinson says it was new in 1950, while PSVC says it was new in May 1951. Regardless, we see her at Duxford on 24 September 1995.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
28/08/16 – 09:44
It was new to Lees, Worksop. The entry for Symes in Jenkinson Preserved Buses 1978 is the last known owner at time of publication. The notes on page 6 of the book state the column 7 listing as the ‘Original or Last Known owner’. As for seating it would have been a C12F originally but was presumably up seated at later date, certainly by the time it reached Kenzie.
The history I have on LVO 530 is as follows:- Chassis No 14844 New to Lees, Worksop 5/51 Bisby, Sheffield ?/?? Kenzie, Shepreth 12/54 (C14F) Sworder, Walkern 9/55 Symes, Devonshire Hill, London N17 ?/?? Surbey, Clifton, Beds by -/97 (preservation) Almond, Kettering 10/03 (preservation) Bernard Staniforth, Aylesbury -/08 (preservation) Leach, Telford 11/09 (preservation)
John Wakefield
28/08/16 – 10:56
Thank you, John!
Pete Davies
31/08/16 – 10:18
I have often heard and read people describing minibuses as ‘breadvans’ and thought that they were referring to the Ford Transit generation, but this old-timer reminds me of the breadvans of my youth.
David Wragg
31/08/16 – 16:06
Quite so, David!!!
Pete Davies
01/09/16 – 14:06
According to the Nov 1995 issue of “Buses” (on p27, in a report on Showbus), this coach “began its career with Skills of Nottingham”! I suppose their reporter must have picked up the wrong end of the stick on the day?
Graham Woods
02/09/16 – 06:37
The ‘breadvans’ of my childhood were all horsedrawn, as were the milk ones, save the Co-op which had pre-war electric floats! When I first saw the K8’s, I thought they were so sleek and streamlined, unlike any other van on the streets at that time and have never really shaken that view off. As passenger vehicles, I would think that were a bit ‘bouncy’ with such a short length and the front axle laid back, too.
Chris Hebbron
02/09/16 – 06:37
Given the comments sections on almost any article you choose on the online newspaper websites, most reporters a) cannot spell, b) are unaware of grammar, c) should still be in kindergarten and d) get the wrong end of the stick.
Pete Davies
02/09/16 – 06:38
Graham, yes, that report would seem to be erroneous, I have a Skills fleet history which I’ve perused thoroughly and there’s no mention of this vehicle. Skills only ever bought three Austins and this wasn’t one of them.
There appears to be some confusion about the exact model definition of the immediate post war Austin passenger model range. The Austin “near clone” of the Bedford O haulage vehicle was the K type, and the equivalent passenger model (and OB lookalike) was the CX. Some sources suggest that the bonneted model was simply classified CX, and this became the CXB in forward control form. Others state that the bonneted type was the CXB and the forward control version the CXD. When a Perkins P6 diesel option was offered from around 1950 the type became CXD Series II, which appeared in 1956 in Series III form, essentially for export, with the BMC 5.1 litre diesel. However, pictures of the bonneted model and the forward control version are both frequently described it being the CXB, so what is the true position? The Commercial Motor for 1st October 1948 states that the first forward control CXB example which appeared at the Commercial Motor Show in that year was converted from normal control by the Norwich based coach builder and Austin dealer Mann Egerton. A picture of this exhibit may be found here carrying the fictitious registration number M(ann) E(gerton) 1949:- www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/ I remain sceptical that the 1948 forward control conversion was entirely carried out by Mann Egerton as production examples from Austin began appearing shortly after the Earls Court Show, though it may well be that the Norwich based coach builder put pressure on, and collaborated with, Austin in bringing the model to the market. The standard coach bodywork by Mann Egerton for the forward control CXB was given the name “Norfolk” and was distinguished by its curiously sculpted front end to which the standard Austin radiator grille (an upsized version of the shape employed on the cars) was rather incongruously attached. The result certainly lacked the businesslike appearance of the Bedford SB that appeared in 1950. Somewhere around 1953 the Norfolk body became rather more stylish, but the Austin coach was then in its twilight days on the home market, though exports continued into the 1960s. The 1947 bonneted Austin CX series originally had a 67 bhp 3½ litre petrol engine, but from 1948 this was upgraded with a 68 bhp 4 litre unit. The gearbox was a four speed synchromesh, which compared favourably with the crash box of the Bedford OB, but, unlike the Austin, the Bedford had servo assisted brakes and remained the more popular type by far. NPF 140 shown above was photographed in the large Croydon council estate of New Addington in 1960, and bore the trading name Karefree Travel about whom I know nothing. The livery bears a close resemblance to the 1948 Show exhibit – could it be the same vehicle, I wonder? It can also be seen in this 1950 shot taken in Parliament Square.
Copyright NA3T Arthur Hustwitt (Memorial)Collection)
Some interesting comments concerning the relative merits of the Bedford OB and the Austin CX range may be found here (scroll halfway down):- www.martynlnutland.com/
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
19/07/17 – 11:07
In John Carman’s excellent book, AUSTIN K SERIES BUSES & COACHES, the following information is shown. NPF 140, FC31F, K4/CXB, Mann Egerton, 139990, 9/49. L.G Lambird (Carshalton & Wallington Coaches) Wallington Surrey
John Rentell
20/07/17 – 07:20
John Carman’s book has an appendix of all the known Austin K series (including the 3 way van based K8) It also explains in detail the different designations. Well worth £12 including p&p direct from John at Mont du Herissaon Grande Maison Road St Sampson Guernsey GY2 4JH
John Wakefield
21/07/17 – 07:07
Amazing that a postwar 31-seat coach should have no servo braking. As with the Bedford OB, the appearance of this Austin coach suffers from the narrowness of the front track, which shows up to particular disadvantage in the lower photograph, but even with a full-width front axle the top-heavy, ungainly body design would still spoil the whole effect. Why were just-postwar builders and their customers not content with simple, unpretentious, straight-waisted bodywork that sat easily on the chassis instead of appearing to crush it? The CXB chassis deserved better! Thanks too, Roger, for the fascinating link.
Ian Thompson
29/07/17 – 07:10
I have one of the forward control model of these and I see that, whilst the log book doesn’t specify the chassis type, the chassis number itself is prefixed CXB. Don’t know if that helps.
Peter Cook
30/07/17 – 06:44
That’s useful, Peter. Could we see a photo and some history of your rare vehicle and how you came to acquire it?
Chris Hebbron
01/08/17 – 07:25
Chris. I regret to say that my knowledge of the history of the vehicle is limited. The reg. no. is MAF 544 so presumably it came from a Cornish operator. Chassis is CXB139946. As much as I know of the histroy is that it was acquired by Colin Shears at some stage and subsequently sold to someone who I think came from Plymouth. After it had spent a number of years outside, the would be preservationist decided that it was too far gone and returned it to Colin. I then acquired it from Colin. The bodywork was beyond salvation and went to Barnsley packed inside a Leyland National. I did keep some of the more iconic panels in case anyone wanted them. The chassis is being renovated.
Thx, Peter, for taking the trouble to post the photo and what history you’re aware of.It’s always sad to see old vehicles reach this stage, but doubly so when they are rare to start with. Saving the chassis is, nevertheless, a fruitful enterprise. Good luck with that.
Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield 1955 Atkinson Mk II (6LW) Northern Counties H35/25CD
Following on from Roger Broughton’s comments on the S.H.M.D. Daimler CVD6 posting I thought it might be appropriate to post this view of the preserved S.H.M.D. Atkinson double-decker in Stalybridge bus station on 30th April 1978. The location still contains many props used for the filming of ‘Yanks’ and the less kind may have commented that Stalybridge had to be modernised to bring it up to the 1940s setting for the film! I encountered some of the filming here by chance. I arrived at Stalybridge on the late train from Leeds (the one-time York – Aberystwyth mail train) and saw a pool of light coming from the town centre. Going over to investigate I found in the bus station the two Keighley-West Yorkshire veterans (JUB 29 and CWX 671) given those Stalybridge and District fleet names and dirtied in a very effective manner. Also on standby was a Grey Cars Regal III which was even less historically accurate. I don’t recall much of this footage escaping the cutting room floor.
Photograph and Copy contributed by David Beilby
14/04/11 – 05:00
Not sure about the Atkinson Mk II heading – surely this was a PD746 or possibly a PD746S, I’ve seen both versions used. And if it was a “Mark II” then what was a “Mark I”? Whatever its official designation it remains a lovely machine and thank heavens that it was preserved for posterity.
Neville Mercer
27/04/11 – 07:28
One-off designs tend to have a short and unsuccessful life due to lack of proof testing that volume production brings but the Atkinson double decker seemed to have a full and active service life with SHMD. This is perhaps because it was built from well proven major component parts, ie a Gardner 6LW engine and I believe a Self-changing Gears semi-automatic gearbox. It is a great pity Atkinson did not produce more double-deckers as they obviously got the package right. Their sortie into single-deck production was largely at the behest of some North West operators who wanted a robust Gardner engined vehicle on the lines of the Bristol MW which was not available to non-BTC companies in the 1950’s. Atkinson supplied the Alpha saloon to LUT, North Western and SHMD at this time. LUT was fairly well wedded to Guy Arabs for its double deck purchases and North Western, requiring low-height vehicles chose the Dennis Loline so apart from the solitary SHMD vehicle there were no other double-deck deliveries from Atkinson. I have ridden on no.70 at Boyle Street and I agree it is a splendid machine. The centre-entrance makes it a doubly unusual vehicle. I understand this came about as the general manager at the time came from Blackpool and was influenced by those splendid Burlingham PD2’s.
Philip Halstead
27/04/11 – 13:19
Thank you David for the extra info regarding other buses readied for the film
Roger Broughton
14/11/11 – 17:43
Arthur Brearley, the HPTD driving instructor during the 1960s, told me that the Atkinson PD746 was seriously considered by Halifax in the 1950s. In the event, further Daimlers arrived.
Roger Cox
29/11/11 – 17:03
When 70 bus Atkinson DD was delivered new it was fitted with a David Brown gearbox not a lot of people know that
Old Bus Driver
01/12/11 – 07:43
I haven’t watched the excellent film “Yanks” for a good while now, but much of it was filmed in Keighley and I think the bus concerned was Keith Jenkinson’s Keighley-West Yorkshire Titan JUB 29 wasn’t it ??
Chris Youhill
01/12/11 – 07:44
Yes it was Keith Jenkinson’s JUB 29 Chris. I remember it spending a short time in West Yorkshire’s Body Shop for a general sprucing up after filming had finished. It was tucked snugly in the back left-hand corner (viewed from Westmoreland Street) and achieved almost ‘local celebrity’ status with some of the older staff during its brief stay. Like you, I’ve never seen the film, but know that quite a lot of the scenes were shot around Keighley and its railway station. That would tie in very nicely with the Keighley-West Yorkshire vehicle, not to mention the splendid engines of the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway.
Brendan Smith
01/12/11 – 07:45
David Brown was a prolific supplier of gearboxes to lorry builders such as the likes of Atkinson, Foden and ERF in the 40’s 50’s and 60’s, usually mated to Gardner engines, so I wouldn’t be surprised that the only Atkinson double decker was so supplied. What I do not know is was David Brown gearboxes as popular with the bus chassis builders of the period?
Eric
01/12/11 – 15:21
About D Brown gearboxes SHMD had 2 Daimler dds with DB gearboxes and they were nice to drive unlike the Atkinson dd which was orible, very slow change and very heavy steering.
Old Bus Driver
04/12/11 – 07:55
Bus manufacturers had a stronger preference for making their own gearboxes than lorry builders, but the users of David Brown gearboxes in PSVs I know of were BMMO (all postwar manual transmission models I think), Tilling-Stevens, Atkinson (Alpha), Bristol (SC4LK) and Daimler (CSG). The Daimler CSG was overtaken by events, soon being replaced by the CCG with Guy transmission when Daimler and Guy came under common control.
Peter Williamson
05/12/11 – 06:40
Thank you for that info. Peter. Interesting to note that of the five chassis makes/models you list three of them would have been fitted with Gardner engines. What would be the normal engine choice for the Tilling-Stevens?
Eric
05/12/11 – 16:46
The immediate post-war Tilling-Stevens Express models certainly had David Brown gearboxes and those I know of had Gardner 5LW or 6LW engines. The majority of post-war Expresses went to Hong Kong. They were sound chassis and these engines/gearboxes gave them great reliability. (One, I believe, has survived). Were that other chassis builders of the time – Crossley in particular, had done the same.
Chris Hebbron
06/12/11 – 06:39
The Bristol SU chassis also utilised a David Brown (5-speed) gearbox, but for some reason Bristol turned to Turner (no pun intended!) for gearboxes on the LH. Funny how to many of us, David Brown gearboxes seem more associated with lorries than buses, as Eric says. It’s interesting to learn that BMMO and Tilling-Stevens also used them. As an aside, when David Brown purchased Aston Martin many years ago, the letters DB were used on consecutive new models over the years, to denote the ownership.
Brendan Smith
08/12/11 – 06:38
The alternative to Gardner engines in postwar Tilling-Stevens models was Meadows. The survivor, GOU 732 from memory, originally had a Meadows engine but now has a Gardner 6LW.
Peter Williamson
08/12/11 – 15:35
Following on from my post above, for what it’s worth, here’s a link to the Hong Kong Tilling-Stevens Express survivor: //cmchk.no-ip.org/ If memory serves me, I believe that Hong Kong had the largest fleet, well over 100, of post-war Tilling-Stevens in the world and they lasted over 20 years in service.
Chris Hebbron
16/04/12 – 07:38
So pleased to read about the Atkinson 70. Took me into Manchester(Schooldays) daily when on the splendid fast 125 Glossop Hyde Manchester limited stop service in the fifties!. I remember drivers struggling with the gear box when it first came into service. A lovely vehicle to ride on but never up to the speed of the CVD6 vehicles 23-24-25 that worked the 125 so regularly. Great days – SHMD was transport at its best – and yes – we always called it “the Joint Board”
Roger Chadwick
07/10/12 – 08:32
I came across the ‘S.H.M.D. No.70’ correspondence purely by chance. I travelled on the Atkinson bus in the mid-60s and remember its sluggish performance compared to that of the six, similarly-bodied, Daimlers bought by S.H.M.D. whose last two, open-platform, Daimler doubler-deckers-dating from 1959-seem to have been unpopular with drivers because of their ‘awkward’ (David Brown) gearboxes: one of them was heard to say that you could ‘have a meal’ in the time that it took to make a gear change. Given the hilly nature of the S.H.M.D.’s operating area, one wonders how such apparent ‘lemons’ came to be bought at a time when the Joint Board was taking its first Leyland PD2s that seemed to take very steep routes in their stride (unlike those PD2s operated by Manchester on shared routes). Lancashire United bought a 1959 Guy Arab (now preserved) which also had a David Brown gearbox: enthusiasts who test-drove this bus on a ‘flat’ circuit found the ‘box ‘tricky’ when selecting gears but were otherwise quite satisfied with it.
John Hardman
07/10/12 – 11:29
Philip Halstead said that the Atkinson single decker was designed and built at the behest of “some” North West operators. It was more specific than that. North Western Road Car was, to say the least, miffed to find itself remaining under the BET banner after the 1947 Transport Act which nationalised the Tilling companies in whose company NW, a dedicated Bristol user, felt at home. With the Act due to become law in 1948, and aware of long delivery times, NW ordered 122 Bristol single deckers before the terms of the Act restricted Bristol purchases to the nationalised Tilling Group. The last of these were delivered in 1950. Double deckers were in the minority in the fleet and NW was seemingly happy with its PD1 and PD2 purchases in the late 1940s and plans to re-body its 1938/9 K5Gs and austerity Guy Arabs with Northern Coach Builders bodies, chosen because a senior NCB manager was ex-Eastern Coach Works. A spanner was thrown in the works when NCB suddenly closed on the death of its owner and the re-bodying contract passed to Willowbrook. Much of the double decker territory was relatively flat around Stockport, Manchester and out on the Cheshire Plain. The singles however had to tackle parts of the Pennines and the Peak District and the Gardner powerplant was deemed necessary. The problem was the favoured Gardner engine was only available powering products from Coventry, Wolverhampton Sandbach and Guildford – none of which suited. A massive rebodying programme of the pre war Bristol singles was implemented and what were effectively “new” Bristols continued to appear until 1952 after which further complex body swapping went on well into the late 1950s. In 1949 Atkinsons were approached by NW Chief Engineer H Stuart Driver and they agreed to build a single decker to NW’s “proxy Bristol” requirements. The first two with Weymann bodies arrived in 1951 and were compared to two Leyland/Weymann Olympics. Whilst they had rear entrances, compared to the Leylands’ front entrance, everything else was vastly in their favour. A further 14 followed in 1953, the last two were bodied by Willowbrook as “lightweight” vehicles with single rear wheels, the last had a 4 cylinder Gardner engine in place of the 5LW but was found to be unsatisfactory. An order for 100 5LW powered lightweights was placed but this was countermanded by the BET main board. Stuart Driver made a presentation to the BET main board showing the benefits of the Atkinson against the BET now preferred Leyland Royal Tiger. His presentation was rejected. He caught the first train back to Stockport, cleared his desk and walked out. NW, for better or worse got Royal Tigers and later Tiger Cubs. The Atkinsons gave around 13/14 years service and, had they been front entrance, would have lasted longer in OMO service. I rode on these to school many times and they were quick, though the rear entrance with steep steps didn’t help loading and unloading. Meanwhile LUT had been watching developments between NW and Atkinsons and ordered vehicles which were to be delivered in 1952 with front entrance bodies on 6 and centre entrance bodies on 4. Between 1952 and 1955 LUT amassed no less than 40 of the type. SHMD was a dedicated Thorneycroft user. When production of Thorneycroft buses ceased, their allegiance changed to Daimler. They bought a Freeline single decker in 1952 fitted with a centre entrance standee 60 passenger capacity body. The body was deemed a success, the chassis wasn’t, so follow on orders for the body were placed on Atkinson chassis. The deliveries between 1953 and 1956 were centre entrance, the last in 1959 were front entrance but were arranged with 34 seats and a standee area for 26. A total of 7 single deckers and the double decker were purchased by SHMD, the double decker being an attempt to find an alternative to the Daimler chassis then dominating the double decker fleet. When Frank Brimelow took over as SHMD General manager in 1956 he took two batches of PD2s. These had fully rated 0.600 engines – the reason they outperformed their Manchester counterparts which, under Albert Neal’s parsimonious pursuit of economies, de-rated his engines to 100bhp. Had NW got its way, had the double decker been built for a more substantial operator, had the prototype not been with an oddball body layout, had the Bamber Bridge facility been larger, had ifs and ands been pots and pans……………you know what I mean.
Phil Blinkhorn
07/10/12 – 13:35
During the brief period when I was a Schedules Clerk at SELNEC in the early 70’s, I worked with a chap called Peter Caunt who had worked at North Western, both in the offices and as a driver. In his inimitably enthusiastic manner he recalled driving the Atkinsons, which he referred to as the ‘fastest coal lorries in the north’. He said they were very quick – even more so than the Reliances – but that they had very heavy steering and gearchanges making them hard work for a full shift unless you were built like Goliath. The accelerator pedal was of the organ type, which at only low revs had already reached a horizontal aspect. Pressing down any further caused the pedal to point downwards towards its front end causing great discomfort to one’s ankle – especially on a long hill climb. Drivers resorted to attaching wooden wedges to the pedal to alleviate the problem. I remember him telling me how one of them had suffered a gearbox failure and an ‘engineering team’ was despatched by the manufacturer to replace it. When they turned up they were mistaken for gypsies and almost thrown off the premises. ‘A right pair of toe-rags’, Peter quoted, they were not allowed into the works, so the bus was shunted into the yard and they did the entire job under the crudest of conditions using just brute strength and with the meagerest of tools. Years later (1984) he went on to write his bus driving memoirs in ‘North Western – A Driver’s Reminiscences’, to which I have referred to jog my memory. It still turns up regularly on bookstalls at rallies.
John Stringer
09/04/13 – 17:47
I was a fitter at North Western at Stockport for 10 years. The Atkinson Alphas had 5HLW Gardners and we had some with 6HLW Gardners these all had Atkinsons own gearboxes (copy of D Brown), not very good. We had two light weight Alphas with single rear wheels these had 5HLW Gardners and genuine David Brown gearboxes.
Geoff Burgess
03/02/16 – 14:39
Regarding SHMD 70 Atky it was a great bus to drive. The steering was very heavy indeed. It was used for the express route from Manchester where it left and did not stop until it was in our area. The shift was I think 4 times per evening and everyone (just once fell for it) though it was a good payer but in reality it was a full duty. Once it got going it Flew!! Stopping was a concern.!! It used to terminate in Carrbrook I think (a long time ago so could be wrong). Happy day’s.
Philip Worley
04/02/16 – 13:25
As many readers of these columns will be aware, this was the only double decker Atkinson ever built, and according to various sources this was one of the reasons they declined an invitation to produce a clone of the Daimler Fleetline. That clone became the Dennis Dominator. UMA 370 managed to join the ranks of the preserved, and we see her in the GM Museum at Boyle Street on 19 August 2012. Conditions there were a little cramped, to say the least, at the time of my visit. Still, I did capture a view of the Crest.
Pete Davies
04/02/16 – 16:54
As many people will be aware, the “knight” radiator mascot from this vehicle was stolen from the Boyle St museum recently. It is believed to be unique, so if anybody notices it anywhere please get in touch with the GMTS website. Incidentally, does anybody know why Atkinson put a knight motif on it in the first place? I’ve always suspected that they were sort of imitating Guy’s Indian chief mascot.
Neville Mercer
05/02/16 – 06:38
The knight motif was an allusion to the expression “Knights of the Road”, a term that was once, but emphatically not nowadays, applied to the lorry driving fraternity.
Roger Cox
06/02/16 – 06:55
Oh, Roger! There are, as we all know, some bad eggs in the bus industry as well, but the professional truck driver is several rungs further up the ladder of ‘knighthood’ than the average white van man . . .
Pete Davies
06/02/16 – 06:55
In the 1960s Atkinson produced a range of lorries with ‘Knight’ in the name – Black Knight, Gold Knight and Silver Knight spring to mind – and appropriate badges were often seen attached to the radiators. This has triggered memories of W J Riding’s immaculate fleet of dark blue and silver-grey Atkinson lorries, which were a familiar sight on the roads at that time.
Brendan Smith
14/07/17 – 07:34
18 months on; did the missing mascot ever turn up? Has anyone tried to make ‘a reasonable facsimile’ of it,using images to work from?
John Hardman
30/10/19 – 06:59
This bus now has a matching set of recessed front wheel centres for the first time since 1971. A swap of wheels at Stalybridge with the just restored 70 and the then withdrawn Daimler 61 has been reversed. The Atkinson had recessed centres to allow Atkinson aluminium hub covers. Sadly still no sign of the Knights Head rad badge.
Neil Kenworthy
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
30/05/21 – 06:56
During these damp May days, I have come across this photo taken at Blackpool Rally on August 21 1977. I have a scribbled note that it was owned by GMPTE at the time.
Lancashire United Transport 1954 Atkinson Alpha PL745H Roe B44F
When the BET subsidiary and previously staunch Bristol user North Western Road Car Co. found itself unable to continue buying its favourite make of chassis (due to the manufacturer falling under state-owned BTC ownership and only able to supply to other similarly owned companies), NWRCC management, not to be outdone, sought the services of the independent truck maker Atkinson Lorries (1933) Ltd. of Walton-le-Dale to produce an equivalent to the underfloor-engined Bristol LS model which they would no doubt have otherwise purchased. The new model was christened the Alpha, and the first ones were duly delivered to NWRCC in 1951. However the BET Group were having none of it and stepped in to force its companies to stick to its preferred choice of Leyland Tiger Cub or AEC Reliance. Atkinson continued with the Alpha though, which was initially offered as a mediumweight model, fitted with a choice of Gardner 4, 5 or 6HLW engines, and either an Atkinson 5-speed overdrive constant-mesh or David Brown 5-speed direct top synchromesh gearbox. At the 1953 Scottish Show they displayed an Alpha fitted with Self-Changing Gears semi-automatic gearbox – quoted as being the first to be fitted to a PSV chassis (Leyland – owner of SCG – had a minority shareholding in Atkinson at the time). At the same time a lightweight version was offered. Apart from orders for 40 for LUT, and 20 for Venture of Consett, the rest were mostly supplied as coaches in small or single numbers. Production diminished throughout the 1950’s, the model’s swansong occurring in 1963 when Sunderland Corporation surprised everyone by taking three updated 33ft. long buses with semi-automatic gearboxes and modern-style Marshall bodies, but these were the last of the line. LUT took a batch of ten in each year from 1952 to 1955, and 528 (TTD 297) seen here at their Atherton Depot was a model PL745H with Roe B44F body, new in 1954.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
24/04/14 – 08:21
Weren’t the first NWRCC examples delivered with single rear wheels, but the road holding, or lack of it, lead to the more normal twin rear wheels being subsequently fitted? Did any other operator take single wheel Alphas?
Eric Bawden
24/04/14 – 08:22
If my memory isn’t faulty (and it often is these days) I have a feeling that Sunderland Corp’n took delivery of some earlier Alphas, with similar Roe bodies, in the mid-1950’s.
Chris Hebbron
24/04/14 – 08:22
A survivor from the three Atkinsons bought by Sunderland Corporation. I took the photo at the 2013 N.E.B.P.T rally at Seaburn, which is to the north of Sunderland, so no doubt the bus would have been used on services in the area at some time during its working life.
Ronnie Hoye
24/04/14 – 11:37
Sorry folks, in my haste I forgot to add the fleet and registration numbers for the Sunderland Atkinson. WBR 248 fleet number 48. More photos of the vehicle were posted in my Metro Center May 2013 gallery.
Ronnie Hoye
24/04/14 – 11:38
The NWRCC Alphas did have single rear wheels, something the company tinkered with on and off in the 1950s.
Phil Blinkhorn
24/04/14 – 11:39
Copyright Chas. H Roe
Here’s an official photo of one of the earlier Alphas, with Roe bodies, which Sunderland Corp’n bought and I mentioned earlier.
Chris Hebbron
24/04/14 – 15:47
So upset was the North Western manager by the BET reaction he resigned and left the company.
Chris Hough
24/04/14 – 15:47
Just one minor point, John. Self Changing Gears did not succumb to Leyland control until 1957, when the Lancashire maker bought the Hawker Siddeley third of the shares in the company. Prior to that, the Wilson family, Hawker Siddeley and Leyland each owned a third. The Atkinson shown in Chris Hebbron’s picture was earlier one of two L644LWEXL long wheelbase models with front mounted vertical 4LW engines bought by Sunderland in 1956/7. The Leyland shareholding in the Atkinson company proved to be the decisive factor in the tragic sale of Atkinson to Seddon in 1970. Leyland decided to take the Oldham money and run.
Roger Cox
25/04/14 – 07:29
It is surprising that a large proportion of the Atkinson buses had unusual bodies. All the North Western Alphas had rear entrance bodies, and many of the Lancashire United examples had centre-entrance standee bodies, as did four of those for SHMD Board. The last three for SHMD had front entrance standee bodies, and the one-off double decker had centre entrance. Even the front entrance Roe bodied Alphas for LUT had an unusual (but attractive) appearance, and the driver had an offside cab door. Surely the two Sunderland Atkinsons bought in the fifties were not Alphas, but modified lorry chassis. Just think, if the BET Group management had not been so awkward, North Western might have bought a couple of hundred Atkinson Alphas instead of Royal Tigers, Tiger Cubs and Reliances of the FDB, KDB and LDB series.
Don McKeown
25/04/14 – 07:30
Strange isn’t it. You would expect Atkinsons with their quality and traditional reputation and low volumes to be an ideal manufacturer for the bus industry. No, it has to be Leyland or AEC. Eventually, they all eat each other, aided by too much direction- are rear engines or double deckers the answer to everything- so we now have over-large, wallowing buses with all the control subtlety of a dodgem. Am I being unfair?!
Joe
25/04/14 – 11:47
I tend to agree with Don’s comment about the lorry chassis. The layout is probably the most odd of all the Atkinson bus production as, to an extent, all the other body layouts followed traditional or, at least, accepted formats yet a long wheelbase with a double width door behind the front axle needs some explanation!
Phil Blinkhorn
25/04/14 – 14:24
The Atkinson L644 was a lorry chassis – L=Long wheelbase, 6=6 tonner, 4=4-wheel, 4=4cyl. The suffix LWEXL presumably means LW=Gardner LW (though this was not usually used on lorries, being taken for granted), EXL=Extra Long (being longer than the standard lwb lorry). I’ve only ever seen these on photographs, but always thought they looked rather good, and that Roe had made a very neat job of them. The double width door looks unusual on a front-engined single decker, and the grille looks like a throwback to the BMMO S6 or D5. It’s almost like a slightly longer and more substantial alternative to the Bristol SC. I’m told however that their appeal stopped with their appearance, and that they were rather unrefined in reality.
John Stringer
27/04/14 – 08:08
Although it was based upon a lorry chassis, one presumes that the frames of the Sunderland buses were dropped in the conventional psv fashion to permit a reasonable floor height. I entirely agree that the 4LW engine would have been a far from refined power unit, even with a flexible mounting. (Nonetheless, the prewar Dennis Lancet with four cylinder petrol or diesel power was noted for smooth running.) The 4LW had a capacity of 5.6 litres, almost exactly the same as the experimental 6LK engine made in the 1930s but not produced in volume. No doubt the 6LK would have been more costly to produce than the 4LW, but it would have given Gardner an effective, reliable, refined 5.7 litre 85 bhp high speed six cylinder engine, suitable for automotive applications where the 4LW was much too ponderous. An excellent opportunity was lost. Under Hugh Gardner’s autocratic management style the company’s production methods did not evolve with the passage of time, and were essentially very inefficient by the 1960s, a factor that was reflected in the level of output and the unit cost. During the 1968 strike in the foundry section, personnel from other parts of the Patricroft works stepped in to maintain production. It was discovered that the technique used for the sand core for one complex casting could be simplified, reducing the manufacturing time from 40 minutes to 12 seconds. No doubt similar economies could have been effected in other processes had the will been there to take a proper look. After the 1973 strike, during which some 600 skilled employees left the Patricroft firm for employment elsewhere, the continued demand for the LX series engines had to be met by ending production of the 4LK and 4/5/6LW ranges for which markets still existed. When, in the following year, Rolls Royce decided to pull out of making diesel engines, Paul Gardner suggested that the Patricroft firm should buy the Shrewsbury factory, equipped as it was with modern manufacturing plant. Hugh Gardner responded by threatening to resign, and the project was dropped. Paul was told to apologise for wasting the board’s time. What might have been!
Roger Cox
27/04/14 – 12:58
Thx for the insight into Gardner’s problem boss. So many livelihoods affected, often those of talented people by such high-handed and misguided behaviour. Can you say, Roger, why the Gardner strikes occurred and why R-R pulled out of road vehicle engine manufacture?
Chris Hebbron
27/04/14 – 16:16
Chris, the comprehensive record of Gardner history is the 2002 book by Graham Edge. In August 1968, a certain shop steward in the iron foundry shop took it upon himself, presumably arising from some grievance, to cast the name ‘Gardner’ upside down on the crankcase of the large and expensive 8L3B engine. He was repeatedly warned to no effect and was ultimately suspended. The other stewards in the foundry then called a strike that lasted until September, when the action collapsed and the staff returned to work, having lost their centenary bonus. The initial troublemaker left the plant soon afterwards. The 1973 dispute was more serious, and fell within a pattern of strikes that plagued almost all the UK motor manufacturing industries of the time. By the end of 1973, when settlement was made, production of engines at Patricroft had fallen to a level, 2937 units, that was half that of the two previous years. This strike was instrumental in the move by those manufacturers traditionally employing Gardner engines towards fitting other makes of motive power. Hugh Gardner was an autocrat and must surely have been an unreceptive individual at every negotiating table with the trades unions. It is possible that an undercurrent of labour dispute arose from personal resentment by the union representatives, but the eventual outcome was yet another tragedy for British industry. The appointment of Clayton Flint as Chairman in 1975, the first ‘non Family’ person ever to hold the post, led to more flexible management of the company and improved production efficiency, particularly in the foundry shop. The rigid resistance to change ceased to be, and Paul Gardner, at last, was permitted to take Gardner engines into the world of turbocharging. Sadly, it was all too late, and even the sale of the business to Hawker Siddeley could not save Gardner. New engines were rushed into production too soon, and reliability, hitherto synonymous with the name Gardner, began to fall short. In the recession of the 1980s, during which the smaller independent commercial vehicle makers began to fall by the wayside, Hawker Siddeley lost interest in Gardner and sold off the company to Perkins. The writing was finally on the wall. Perkins disposed of Gardner by 1994, and automotive engine production ceased soon afterwards, followed by marine production three years later. The residual engine parts and support business became Gardner Avon, but this is now a non trading company. Today, the so called Gardner group is a supplier to the aerospace industry. It has several sites in the UK, but Manchester is not one of them.
Roger Cox
28/04/14 – 08:27
The North Western manager who resigned when BET refused to approve the purchase of further Atkinsons was Mr H S Driver, the company’s chief engineer. He had appealed to try to have this decision overturned, but without success. He later became Gardner technical representative for Australasia, and did not return to the UK.
David Williamson
28/04/14 – 08:27
Thanks, Roger, for that detailed, illuminating and depressing story, much of it so common in those days. That was when much of the Great went out of Great Britain!
Chris Hebbron
29/04/14 – 07:55
I’d been wondering what had happened to Gardner: there they were supplying engines, along came “uniformed service” and I sort of dropped out of bus-related business . . . then when I picked-up my interest again it was in a world without Gardner. I do remember reading somewhere that there was a specific reason why Sunderland ordered those long-wheelbase forward-entrance Atkinsons to that forma- but I can’t remember now what I read or where I read it. Something about a heavily-trafficked night/works service seems to ring a bell.
Philip Rushworth
29/04/14 – 07:55
Much of the BET Group’s vehicle policy was determined by the availability of bulk discounts. Atkinson would probably have been unable to provide the bulk, never mind the discount. NWRC’s Mr Driver had allegedly been responsible for the creation of the Alpha, and had certainly worked closely with the manufacturer to get the spec just so for the operator. But when he went to BET HQ to plead his case, he was told that Royal Tigers had already been allocated to NWRC from a Leyland bulk order, and that was that. (Info from Glory Days: North Western by A E Jones.)
Peter Williamson
30/04/14 – 07:26
Very grateful to Roger for the detailed account of Gardner’s sad slide into nothingness. Having no understanding of the business side of things, I went through life blissfully confident that Gardner’s products always had been, were and always would be the finest available on earth. Of course that was once true, but I had my illusion shattered one day at Dover, where a driver had open the back panel of his bus. (I can’t remember the make of vehicle, and was the engine a 6LXCT or did it have a slightly bigger bore?) I expected him to share my enthusiasm, but his tales were of woe, and I went away with a painfully updated understanding, although I still had no idea how long the problems had been festering. Also fascinated to read that a 6LK had actually been built. A friend used to fantasize about such an engine. It could have competed directly with the Perkins 6.354—though certainly not on price!
Ian Thompson
01/05/14 – 08:24
Thanks Roger for your detailed account of the sad demise of Gardner. I always had (and still have) the utmost respect for their products, which were built to a very high standard as is well documented, and were often known as ‘the crème de la crème of diesel engines’. (Indeed, when the 6LXB was announced, it was regarded as the world’s most fuel-efficient diesel engine at 40% efficiency). It is also well known that Hugh Gardner was most dogmatic in his views on engine design and how the company was to be run, which no doubt maintained standards, but in the longer term stifled Gardner’s ability to move with the times. As Roger says, Paul Gardner eventually started to take the company forward but it was somehow too late. Certainly the new Gardner LYT engine fell short regarding reliability, and stories of broken crankshafts began to circulate. This was something unheard of with the LW/LX/LXB engines (unless serious maltreatment had occurred), despite their crankshafts not being of fully-hardened construction. The 6LXB continued to have a strong following in the bus market, and the ’30 tons and under’ truck market well into the ‘eighties. Then along came bus deregulation and privatisation, causing widespread disruption to full-sized vehicle manufacturers’ orders following an unpredicted swing to minibuses by operators. There was also, if memory serves correctly, a recession in the construction industry, and haulage companies were also being squeezed by competition from European hauliers. The likes of Volvo, Scania and DAF were also making inroads into the truck market, with more comfortable cabs and higher output engines. Such manufacturers built their own engines which did not help Gardner’s plight. It really is sad how the mighty have fallen. Forty years ago who would have predicted that Gardner, Leyland, Foden, ERF and Seddon-Atkinson would no longer exist in the early 21st century?
Brendan Smith
01/05/14 – 08:25
Many Gardner engines had an afterlife, they were snapped up by showmen who converted them for use as fairground generators. Ironically, since the regulations for silent running generators came into force, many of those that didn’t end up going abroad have been sold to preservation groups, some for spares, but I know of one that will go into a bus which was bought minus and engine, and is currently being restored.
Ronnie Hoye
01/05/14 – 08:25
Ian, following the apocalypse of deregulation, and the acquisition of the “split up” NBC companies by profiteers, I found myself, after five years in non psv work, working at Viscount, Peterborough, the western division of the Cambus outfit. One of the Olympians there was equipped with a 6LXCT engine for the Northampton service, which was operated jointly with Stagecoach United Counties. When outshopped from overhaul, it was often allocated to other services. If it was fully on song, this bus could really motor – I once reached an indicated 70 mph with it when endeavouring to recover lost time on the A1 route to Huntingdon – but the turbocharger arrangement was sadly lacking in durability, and regularly failed. The brakes on this bus were truly dreadful, well up to the tradition of PD3s of the past, and this also tempered one’s inclination to indulge in maximum power. In trying to catch up with other manufacturers in the brave new world of turbocharging, the later Gardner efforts were under developed and under capitalised. The eyes of the top brass at Hawker Siddeley moved instinctively to the net result figure at the bottom of the P/L sheet. The past industrial environment of steady development testing had irretrievably gone, and, after nine years of ownership, Hawker Siddeley lost interest. The sale of Gardner to Perkins in May 1986 was the final kiss of death. Perkins had already taken over the Rolls Royce diesel range, and serious investment in Gardner development was deemed commercially unrewarding. The introduction of the Euro emission regulations was the final blow. Perkins disposed of Gardner in August 1992, by which time most of the output consisted of engine remanufacturing/reconditioning. Perkins/RR and Cummins then ruled the roads and the waves, but they, too, were soon to be seriously threatened by the continental onslaught.
Roger Cox
01/05/14 – 11:48
Scania and DAF both based their success on developing the Leyland O.600/O.680, which they both originally built under licence. There is also uncorroborated evidence that there was a similar beginning to the Volvo story. Another case of the Thatcherite selling off of the family silver.
David Oldfield
01/05/14 – 11:49
….and who, Brendan, would ever have foretold that the lone survivor of all the British mid/heavy transport manufacturers would be Dennis, albeit mainly in the bus field! Perkins is still around, but not in the transport field. Such proud names consigned to history. How lucky we were to have been around to experience and enjoy their products. Oh dear, I’m at risk of becoming maudlin!
Chris Hebbron
01/05/14 – 18:16
David, if you listen to a Scania you can hear the Lancashire accent!
Phil Blinkhorn
02/05/14 – 07:35
You’re right Chris, who indeed would have thought Dennis would rise to such a prominent position in the bus world bless ’em? And where did Wright’s spring from all of a sudden? Nice one Phil. I’ll listen more closely to Yorkshire Tiger’s Omnicity on the Bradford service next time I’m in Harrogate bus station.
Brendan Smith
02/05/14 – 07:36
I first noticed the Lancashire accent driving a new Scania K113 in 1995, Phil. [Especially driving up the hill toward the Air Balloon – leaving Gloucester in the Cirencester direction.]
David Oldfield
02/05/14 – 10:19
The accent is most noticeable on tickover. I can well understand how driving up towards the Air Balloon would bring out the Leyland in a Scania.
Phil Blinkhorn
02/05/14 – 10:20
Brendan. Wrights were around for years building school buses, welfare vehicles and libraries for appropriate “boards” in Northern Ireland. Their joint venture with GM to produce an advanced coach probably first brought them to attention here but it was almost certainly the Handibus – on the Dart – which set things flying. The use of Alusuisse and quality work didn’t harm them, either.
David Oldfield
02/05/14 – 15:17
Thanks for the info David. I am aware of the Handibus/Dart connection, but I had not realised that their history went quite so far back with vehicles produced for what we would probably term ‘Local Authority’ departments. They appeared to really take off following the arrival of the attractively styled Cadet/Renown-type single-deck bodies. The Wright-bodied vehicles for Blazefield certainly seem well put together and have stood the test of time in the various fleets. In some respects it could be argued that long term, Wright’s have taken up the slack left by the closure of ECW. I must admit however that I much preferred the styling of the latter.
Brendan Smith
06/09/14 – 06:30
Regarding the North Western Atkinson Alphas being rear entrance I understood this was because many queue barriers etc were designed, at that time, for rear entrances (which had been standard until then). For example an allocation of Alphas were needed at Urmston to service the 22 (Levenshulme-Eccles) which was joint with Manchester Corporation, who used rear entrance Royal Tigers, as the very substantial barriers at Eccles Bus Station, Davyhulme Nags Head etc. were positioned to suit rear entrances.
Richard Ward
24/04/15 – 06:22
May I ask through this column, for more information (or where to find information) about the BET Preferred Suppliers list. I find this aspect of PSV history quite disturbing, that private companies could be dictated to in this way. One wonders how many BET group managers would have preferred to take Gardner engined products, and how different PSV history would have been given a level playing field.
Allan White
24/04/15 – 13:34
Allan, I’m not sure of your premise. BET owned each individual company. As owner it could dictate policy to its constituents which, though each had its own General Manager, was really a branch of the main company with a small degree of autonomy. The individual operating companies were not private companies and, as BET was a FTSE listed company, their results contributed to the group balance sheet and affected the share price. Nothing unusual in that in just about every sector of business. The classic case of North Western and Atkinson may be the case in point which has sparked your comment. BET had decided that the group would buy Leyland Royal Tigers and later, Tiger Cubs. The deal was financially beneficial to the group as a whole. The fact that NWRCC had its own preference that was overruled may well have been a bad operational decision where financial gain perhaps overcame common sense but in my long experience of working for and with companies within groups, in a number of industries, this is by no means unusual.
Phil Blinkhorn
25/04/15 – 07:05
The Aldershot & District Traction Company was owned in equal third parts by the BET, the THC (ex Southern Railway shareholding) and private shareholders, and this gave it some latitude in its vehicle choices, predominantly Dennis until the influx of the all conquering AEC Reliance. I don’t know if any other BET group companies still had an element of private shareholding up to the 1968 sell out to the government. The ‘delisting’ of certain suppliers, fundamentally in favour of AEC and Leyland, was prompted purely by the economies achievable through bulk ordering. Whether or not BET got the best vehicles through this arrangement is arguable. For example, some BET companies, notably the Northern General group, East Kent and, to a lesser extent, Southdown amongst others, were well satisfied with the Guy Arab, probably the most reliable and economic bus of its time, and they must have been less than pleased when further purchases were vetoed from ‘above’. Even so, individual companies still had some input into the specification of their orders. The Southdown full fronted PD3s, often called ‘Queen Marys’, were unlike anything else in the BET group, apart from the roughly similar Ribble machines. I am sure that other contributors can give similar examples.
Roger Cox
ps I should have added the East Kent full fronted Regent V ‘Puffins’ to the list of distinctive individual orders.
28/11/15 – 06:01
Harking back to Gardner for a moment, were any engines ever fitted to diesel trains, British or foreign? I’m only ever aware of mainly AEC ones and, later, Cummins and possibly the odd Leyland, but it seems to me that the ever-reliable Gardner, which, on the surface, would have seemed the ideal choice, never penetrated the rail market. Or am I wrong?
Chris Hebbron
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
30/12/20 – 10:47
Atkinson Alpha BPL745H with Willowbrook B45F built in 1955 for The Venture Transport Company. They must have proved able workhorses as Venture bought twenty four over a period of two years. The operating area was mostly west Durham and consisted of difficult hilly terrain south of Newcastle and the Tyne valley.
Part of the second batch of six purchased was RUP 434 fleet No.173, the others being RUP 433/8 and numbered 172 – 177. The 1956/7 versions received a more simplified livery and less maroon to the front and sides and straight cab side windows. Photo from my collection, photographer unknown.
King Alfred Motor Services 1935 Albion Victor PK114 Abbott C20C
AAA 756 is an Albion Victor PK114 and it dates from 1935, when it was delivered to the King Alfred fleet. It has an Abbott C20C body and is seen outside Winchester Guildhall on 25 April 1993, the running day having been moved to April to mark the anniversary of the operator’s sale to Hants & Dorset. Its fleet number was Victor 6, according to the book on KAMS, but such things don’t seem to have appeared on the vehicles themselves. I know I’m digressing and perhaps it’s just my warped mind – please, don’t all agree! – but Victor 6 seems reminiscent of “Z Cars”, though there were only ever two of them, ZV1 and ZV2. I know that one of them was KTJ 578 and the other was (numbers unknown) VTB. I know, too, that KTJ was actually a Leyland Comet chassis which was bodied as the Lancashire Constabulary horse box. I saw it parked in Lancaster on a number of occasions. Any thoughts, please about what VTB was?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
23/03/17 – 07:55
ZV2 Registration number was 348 VTB, a Ford Consul saloon in the series. Information found on You Tube, hope this will be of use to the experts.
Thanks, John & Ian. I had stopped watching by the time the two Essex registrations came into the programme.
Pete Davies
24/03/17 – 17:03
Both this handsome Albion Victor and the little 1931 Dennis 30cwt, a fraction of which is just visible in the left of the picture, will be in service on King Alfred Running Day on the first of May.
Ian Thompson
28/03/17 – 07:25
Here is another picture of this Albion taken in Brighton during the May 1970 HCVC run, when it wore a less than accurate version of the King Alfred livery. I believe this vehicle still has its original 65 bhp 3.89 litre four cylinder petrol engine. The PK114 was the 17ft 2in wheelbase normal control version which appeared in 1934, four years after the introduction of the Victor model in 1930. Victor production ended in 1939 with the outbreak of war. The Abbott business emerged in 1929 from the failure of the car coach builder, Page & Hunt, at Wrecclesham, just south of Farnham on the Bordon/Petersfield Road. The firm concentrated mainly on car bodywork, but, during the lean 1930s, commercial vehicle coach building and sailplane construction was undertaken also, though these latter activities ended with the advent of WW2. Abbott continued car bodywork manufacture post war, but the diminishing market for this specialised business led to the firm’s closure in 1972. AAA 756 has a curious history. It was bought by Robert Chisnell in 1935 as a coach for special outings, notably to race meetings at Epsom and Ascot, and it continued in service until war broke out, during which conflict it seemingly met with little use. Probably it was lucky to escape being requisitioned by the military. It saw some activity post war until withdrawal in 1949, after which it lurked in the basement of King Alfred’s Chesil Street garage until emerging from its hibernation after private purchase in 1959 by the Rolls brothers. It made several appearances thereafter before a programme of restoration was undertaken by Dave Hurley, by then its owner, in the 1980s. From 1993, now restored and in the correct livery, AAA 756 made many appearances from its base at the Scottish Vintage Bus Museum, until, in 2013, it became part of the FoKAB fleet. Incidentally, I think that the fleet name/number of AAA 756 is Victor 2 rather than Victor 6. Victor 1 was AAA 755, another PK114 of 1935, but fitted with a Duple C20R body. This was withdrawn in 1951. The third and last Victor to enter the King Alfred fleet in came in 1938, but this was a PK115 forward control example equipped with a Strachan C26F body. This one did get requisitioned during the war, and never came back. The complete King Alfred fleet list may be found :- at this link
Roger Cox
29/03/17 – 06:25
You are correct, Roger. 756 is listed in the Freeman, Jowitt and Murphy history of the operator as “Victor 2”. Now, how did I conjure up “Victor 6”? It can’t be a simple typing error!
Pete Davies
25/12/20 – 06:30
KTJ 578 was definitely a fake number used for filming. I can’t think of a reason apart from the possibility that they wanted a Lancashire-looking number for Z-cars. However, the same number, on a Mark 3 Zephyr, also appeared in the film “The Christmas Tree”, in which, weirdly, it was again driven by Brian Blessed playing a policeman (this time in Bagshot!) 348 VTB was a proper number for the time, and probably the right number for the other Z-car.
As there appears to be no picture of this lovely coach on OBP , I am attaching one. It has been in preservation for many years with Carmel Coaches of Northlew in Devon and can still be seen at local events in the West Country. It was for a while used on Dartmoor Summer Sunday services connecting with trains – and other bus services – at the then newly restored Southern Region station at Okehampton. Initially the route was the 174 to Moretonhampstead where it met the cross Dartmoor 82 between Exeter and Plymouth. For a couple of glorious summers, the 174 was extended onto Widecombe in the Moor using some very narrow lanes. The Albion coped well with the lanes and the hills including the very steep one into Widecombe. One difficulty was with other traffic as visitors and indeed locals seemed to be unable/unwilling to reverse their vehicles in these lanes. This became a major problem when the Pony Club had their occasional meet on the Moor as their exodus with large vehicles or trailers – all at the same time – coincided with the last journey from Widecombe which had to connect with the said 82 and the last train at Okehampton. The owner of the Albion, who was the regular drive on almost every Summer Sunday over the years, was always patient and courteous and I am grateful to him for the opportunities to ride the coach. The photo is taken at Hound Tor before the steep descent into Widecombe.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton
28/08/17 – 10:12
This is a Victor FT39N powered by the Albion 75 bhp 4.88 litre four cylinder diesel engine that was delivered new to Way of Crediton in 1950. I believe that the gearbox is a five speed constant mesh unit. Nowhere can I find the stated capacity of the Duple bodywork, but this was usually 31 or 33.
Roger Cox
29/08/17 – 06:36
Roger, My 1993 edition of Preserved Buses, Trolleys and Trams gives LOD 495 as an FT39AN with a Duple FC31F body.
Dave Farrier
30/08/17 – 07:57
Thanks for that confirmation about the bodywork, Dave. As for the chassis designation, this is FT39AN as you state, but it was often shortened with the ‘A’ omitted. Why? I don’t know, or indeed what the letter itself stood for. The final ‘N’ indicated the “normal” 16ft wheelbase, the longer 16ft 11ins version having the letter ‘L’ instead. The ‘A’ cannot have indicated an initial variant because the post 1956 versions became the FT39KAN and KAL. Perhaps it indicated forward control, but I know of no normal control examples. I have to admit that the some of the (pre Leyland) Albion company’s type numbering seemed to have no logical basis that I can discover. The initial Viking/Valkyrie/Valiant/Victor were classified as PA/PB/PC etc up to PW which clearly meant successive passenger variants. Then came the Venturer M81 and the Valorous M85, which were superseded in 1937 by the Valkyrie and Venturer CX. After WW2 the Victor name reappeared as the FT as seen above, contemporary with Valiant/Viking/Venturer models all classified CX, and the KP underfloor model. Then under Leyland ownership came the Nlmbus MR9 and the Aberdonian MR11, though the latter had no design similarity with the shorter Nimbus, being essentially a lighter weight version of the Tiger Cub. Then some degree of logic returned with NS for Nimbus (again with AN suffix), LR for Lowlander, VT for Victor, VK for Viking, before the Albion name disappeared forever. (Another firm with puzzling model designations was Thornycroft, but that is by the way.)
Roger Cox
31/08/17 – 04:56
At risk of seeming foolish, did the A stand for Albion (engine)? Valorous belongs to the Wulfrunian school of bus naming & then Valkyrie? With whole dictionaries to go at! I’ll stick, BMW/Mercedes style with CVD6 and K6A!
Joe
01/09/17 – 05:48
Possibly, Joe, but why didn’t the contemporary Albion engined Venturer CX19 and CX37, Valiant CX39, Viking CX41 (a variant of which was called the HD61 – again why?) and the experimental KP71NW have the ‘A’ also? The numbers, always odds rather than evens, seem to have had some sequential logic albeit with gaps, though the number 39 was duplicated for the Victor and Valiant models. Perhaps Bletchley Park could come up with the answers to the Albion nomenclature.
Roger Cox
01/09/17 – 05:49
In John Gillham’s book “Buses and Coaches 1945-1965”, he says that the FT 39 Victor was introduced in early 1947, and that a modified version, known as the “FT 39 AN” appeared at the end of 1951, with the long wheelbase “FT 39 AL” following some three years later. The same thing happened to the Nimbus in 1960, when the NS3N was replaced by the NS3AN. I take this to mean that the A was just a spec-update marker, rather as Leyland would later use it on PSU3A (and on to G), AN68A etc.
Graham Woods
01/09/17 – 05:50
Roger, according to definitive book ‘Albion of Scotstoun’ (Adama & Milligan) the ‘A’ suffix indicated improvements to the previous version, including a larger wormwheel assembly on the rear axle, improved braking, heavier springs, flexible radiator tubes, improved fuel filtration and minor wheelbase alterations. The insertion of the ‘K’ before the ‘A’ indicated a later variant fitted with the larger EN287 5.5 litre engine (replacing the EN286 4.88 litre unit) and heavier front springs.
John Stringer
01/09/17 – 15:19
Thank you Graham and John. That explanation does make sense. Back in its vastly superior days when Classic Bus was under Gavin Booth’s editorship it included a series of comprehensive articles on the history of the Albion passenger ranges by Alan Townsin. Sadly I gave all my copies away after being totally disenchanted with the magazine’s altered and self obsessed guise under subsequent editors. I remain rather baffled by the type letters of the heavier Albion models which all, passenger and haulage, seem to have been classified CX. In addition to the Venturer CX19 and 37, the Valiant CX39 and the Viking CX 41, there were the CX1 7 tonner, CX3 6½ tonner, CX5 12 tonner six wheeler and CX7 eight wheeler 14½ tonner. The FT3 code included a haulage version for 4 to 5 ton loads and one suspects that the straight framed FT39 Victor was a simple derivative from it. This webpage gives a list of some pre 1945 Albion types, though it is far from comprehensive in detail:- www.autogallery.org.ru/m/albion.htm
Roger Cox
02/09/17 – 08:08
Sorry to dive off the main subject but I just want to say how much I agree with Roger about Classic Bus magazine. Totally ruined by the Best Impressions outfit and a total rip-off based on the lack of content and acres of empty space on the pages. I have lapsed my subscription in disgust. There I feel better now!
Philip Halstead
02/09/17 – 08:54
Interesting comment on Classic Bus as I feel it has gone the other way and improved enormously making it more readable and not just for the anorak which is where Gavin (an extremely knowledgeable guy) was taking it. Best forgotten is the editor in-between. Even if I am not totally in agreement with the content I still keep my subscriptions going as if we lose the magazines Bus & Coach History and reach to the public will be diminished and ultimately it makes the movement more fragmented
Roger Burdett
27/11/21 – 06:22
Researching this vehicle again it is pretty certainly a FT39N model of 1950, 25ft 6 ins chassis length. The engine is certainly the 4.88 litre EN 286, but the gearbox is a four speed constant mesh unit. The brakes were vacuum servo. The FT39AN, which appeared in 1951, had the engine moved forward a bit and the rear overhang extended slightly enabling 33 seats to be accommodated within the bodywork.
Cheltenham District 1949 Albion Venturer CX19 Metro Cammell H56R
Cheltenham District was never quite the public transport company it seemed. Always privately owned until the late ’40’s, it always appeared to be a municipal operation, compounded by the town crest its vehicles always bore on the sides. In tramway days, a sprinkling of Guy BB’s supplemented its tram services, but, with tram abandonment, it ordered 11 Guy Invincible double-deckers with open staircases and open tops. This degree of discomfort as late as the end of 1929! Worse was to come, for many of them were rebodied in 1937, still with open tops, but the dubious improvement of enclosed staircases! The war prolonged their existence, their not finally expiring until 1944. Uniquely, it’s likely that the wartime austerity Guy Arabs came as a welcome breath of undreamt luxury to passengers and crew alike! To be fair, some civilised transport in the form of AEC Regents with handsome enclosed-top Weymann bodies had augmented the Guy fleet when delivered in the 1934-38 period. In May 1939, Balfour Beatty, owners since 1914, sold out to locally-based Red & White Group, which had favoured Albion vehicles long before the war. The first for Cheltenham were 6 new Venturer CX19/Weymanns in 1940. Preserved 72/HDG448, shown here, has an MCW body and was one of 6 delivered in March 1948, being withdrawn in November 1963. The bus now resides at Wythall bus museum, mechanically sound, but needing body treatment. These photos were taken in happier days at the Bristol Bus Rally in 1977. Cheltenham District, as part of the Stagecoach group, still ploughs its own furrow, having lettered routes rather than numbered ones! The Flowers Ales advert is a reminder that this Cheltenham brewery used tongue-twisting Stanley Unwin to make a series of TV commercials. Who recalls the catchphrase, “For the best keggy of the brewflade, Flowers.” Oh, deep joy!
Photographs and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
Doesn’t she look good in that resplendent paintwork! I suppose it’s not surprising that she looks a little faded now, 33 years later, but she’s under cover and secure at BaMMoT, where Malcolm Keeley assures me that all in good time the body will be assessed and repaired/rebuilt as necessary, which may well be a quite a pricey project. Three of the civilised and handsome Weymann-bodied 56-seat AEC Regents mentioned by Chris went in 1947 to fellow Red & White company Venture of Basingstoke, passing in 1951 to Wilts & Dorset. They were DG 9819 and DG 9820 of 1934, and BAD 30 of 1936. I remember seeing them (and secretly clambering aboard them in the AWRE Aldermaston bus park in 1955-56, where you could also see ex-Leicester Corporation Titans of about 1936 and pre-war Birmingham Daimlers.
Ian Thompson
It was a very attractive livery, probably my joint favourite with City of Oxford colours. I liked the way the light paintwork was carried under the canopy, redolent of LGOC/London Transport LT and ST class paintwork before the war. One little aside about the 1940 Albions I mentioned above; two of them, 32 and 33, were delivered with sliding roofs, most unusual. And at AWRE, I wonder if Ian ever saw any of the many ex-London Transport Northern Counties-bodied austerity Guy Arabs they bought. I think that someone had given AWRE the nod that these had metal-framed bodies and would last longer than those framed with ‘green’ wood of uncertain type!
Chris Hebbron
20/04/11 – 07:57
What type is the bus next to it, I remember long bench seats and the passageway on the right hand side of the upstairs, what type of bus was this?
John
21/04/11 – 06:27
In answer to the query posted by John it looks as if it is possibly a lowbridge Leyland Titan possibly ex Plymouth. A Weymann bodied Titan owned by Plymouth is preserved 114 DDR 414 which is a 1947 Leyland Titan PD1A it can be viewed at www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
21/04/11 – 06:33
I’ve looked at the the batch of photos I took that day, but a better one of the bus you mention does not exist. The original of the above photo shows the top side blind showing THEATRE, but I can’t read the lower one. It’s certainly not an LT RLH.
Chris Hebbron
21/04/11 – 10:45
Good surmise, Chris Hough. My original photo shows clearly, with the aid of a magnifying glass (shades of 221b Baker Street!), fleet number 114 to the right of the platform!
Chris Hebbron
21/04/11 – 18:31
The top word on the lower side blind is undoubtedly Mutley, and that is Plymouth.
Stephen Ford
01/09/11 – 07:28
During the war Cheltenham District had a centre staircase bus that the crews disliked; because if you missed a step, you ended up on your bottom on the pavement, it was centred doored with the stairs straight up to a higher platform from which you turned left or right to the top deck by a another 3 steps, It lasted about a year before being sent to Newbury, It appears that it never stayed at depot long. I believe it started its life up north, before making its way round Red & White depots.
Mike 9
01/09/11 – 11:13
The Brush-bodied centre-entrance AEC running in Cheltenham mentioned by Mike 9 must have been ex-Burnley Corporation Transport no.49, reg. HG 1221, which became no.61 in the Cheltenham fleet, lasting there only only 8 months, till March 46. Apparently it sparked controversy even in the local press, as recorded on p.35 of Colin Martin’s “Cheltenham’s Buses 1939-1980”. Newbury & District must have liked it better, keeping it for a whole 16 months. Although I never saw this fearsome beast, I did have a wonderful childhood ride on a Roe-bodied sister ship, HG 1023, Venture no.76 (ex BCT no.37) from Aldermaston Station to the village. As it swung round the corner and into view I wondered why an AEC should sound like a Leyland. At home in Reading almost all our AECs were oilers and the Leylands were all petrol, so I couldn’t make sense of a petrol AEC. Once aboard Mum forbade us from mounting the extraordinary sprouting staircase, so my sister and I had to make do with one of the higgledy-piggledy seats down below, where you could at least enjoy the music of the snuffly engine and chiming gearbox to the full. Pity the ride was so short! HG 1023 stayed with Venture until 1950. I’m grateful to Peter Gould’s BCT website, Paul Lacey’s 1987 N&D book and Peter Birmingham and John Pearce’s “Venture Limited” for numbers and dates.
Ian Thompson
01/09/11 – 11:14
Quick question is it Cheltenham District or Cheltenham & District
Peter
01/09/11 – 15:01
It was (and the current company is, although it’s not the same company) the Cheltenham District Traction Company (no ‘and’). However, just to confuse the issue, in tramway days it was the Cheltenham and District Light Railway Company.
Michael Wadman
08/02/12 – 06:17
Thanks to Richard L for the link to that wonderful video (and even more importantly audio) of Albion Valiant TWY 8. The long climbs bring out to the gearbox at its best, and there are enough steady-speed sections to be able to hear the intervals clearly, which sound to me like a minor third in 3rd and a minor sixth in second. We hear only a snippet of first, so I won’t hazard a guess. I’ve never ridden on a prewar heavy Albion, but I’ve read that the gearbox had a much more subdued wail, just as earlier Guy Arabs only hinted at the incomparable wail that was to come with the Arab IV, sounds of which can be found on the Lancashire United Running Day from Manchester video on YouTube.
Ian Thompson
10/03/13 – 16:43
The Cheltenham District Albion Venturer CX19 Livery; I used to catch this very bus to school every morning on the Cheltenham Number 8 Route… (East End, Charlton Kings to Cheltenham Town Centre.) The Upper Deck Cream paint did not extend down as far as the second row of beading on the coachwork; but ended at the bead line below the upper deck windows. An example of the correct livery can be seen on the cover of: “Cheltenham’s Buses 1939-1980,” by Colin Martin. ISBN 978-0752421360
Dave M
01/04/15 – 06:19
Following on from Dave M, I recollect Cheltenham and District as being more maroon than red. Is the lighter colour on No.72 a livery from an earlier era?
Peter Cook
13/09/15 – 05:44
I remember often travelling on both DG 9820 and BAD 30 on the route 1 to Bramley when they were with Venture. I don’t remember anything odd about the staircase though. BAD 30 had no rear number plate – the reg. no. was painted on the back window. At least one of them had an “OIL ENGINE” badge on the radiator. For whatever reason, these two deckers stick in my mind.
Chris Williams
17/12/17 – 09:24
Rather late in the day for this thread, but in response to Peter Cook’s comment, this photo shows what I remember to be the standard (maroon) CDT livery in BOC days looking resplendent on The Promenade on June 21, 1964, recently out of the paintshop (in Bristol?) and probably converted to four-track route number blind beforehand (What overkill!!).
Geoff Pullin
20/12/17 – 07:50
In response to Geoff Pullin’s comment about Cheltenham livery, this photo taken in 1979 (Derby Open Day) shows that 72 was definitely in the maroon livery. I am sure that the colour in Chris’s views is simply down to photographic ageing. You can’t tell the difference between the Chelteham ‘red’ and the red of the neighbouring Plymouth bus, but different they certainly were. Looking at my own colour views of Bristol Ks in Cheltenham, in 1972, there are two distinct livery variations. One is the maroon of Geoff’s picture, although with maroon mudguards, not black, the other variant being a brighter red (not I think Tilling red) with mudguards in the maroon.
Alan Murray-Rust
21/12/17 – 11:29
I looked at the first comment in the thread which said body restoration would occur at some point. Well 6 years on and no movement and maybe none likely in the near future. Shows just how difficult it is to get funding for all your wish lists
Roger Burdett
02/10/18 – 07:02
Flowers Brewery was in Stratford-upon-Avon, by the way. The Cheltenham Brewery was West Country Breweries (Cheltenham & Hereford before that).
Iain McDonald
06/10/18 – 07:26
Alan Murray-Rust queries the photo colours of the bus that I took in 1977. However,, despite the years in between, they do not appear that much different from what I remember. I’ve also looked at other photos I took of the other vehicles there that day and they seem to be accurate, having not deteriorated. To look in more detail, it is quite clear that the roof in my photo is maroon rather than the red elsewhere. In his photo, both bodywork and roof appear maroon. Also, the Flowers advert in my photo is exactly the same shade as the bodywork it is painted on. In his photo, the poster background colour doesn’t seem quite the colour as the bodywork. So was the vehicle repainted in the interim?
In earlier days, the Cheltenham livery was red rather than maroon, as depicted in the attached colourised photo of Cheltenham District No. 9 – BAD29 (AEC Regent I/Weymann H30/26R, one of six supplied in 1936, passing Cheltenham Spa (LMS) Station en route to Lilley Brook. Another one of the same batch and route, passes it en route to St. Marks (Copyright Unknown)
Seen at the end of its days this Albion Valkyrie of the Huddersfield independent “Hanson” what a sad sight. The CX13 bus chassis was first built in 1937 production lasted three years to 1940 and then there was a gap of six years before starting production again in 1946. There are more pictures of this bus here scroll down about 25% it is ordered by registration.
08/06/20 – 07:24
I used to drive the Hudds to Scapegoat Hill service bus in the early sixties (via Golcar) for Hansons. Their garage was on St Johns Road Birkby Hudds. It was quite a busy route in those days in as much as it had a full time conductor on board taking fares.
South Yorkshire Motors 1947 Albion Valkyrie CX13 Burlingham C33F
GWT 630 is a former South Yorkshire Albion Valkyrie CX13 of 1947 vintage, though some sources say that it entered service in 1948. It is pictured on the HCVC Brighton Rally in 1971, but after a change of ownership, it subsequently underwent a complete restoration in 2009. The Burlingham coach body seats 33 passengers. This was the first post war coach bought by South Yorkshire (a devotee of the Albion marque), but it is thought that it covered a relatively low mileage in South Yorkshire service, the heavy sliding door being unpopular with lady conductors on stage carriage work. The 17ft 7ins wheelbase Valkyrie CX model was introduced by the manufacturer at the 1937 Commercial Motor Show, and was originally offered in three versions – CX 9 (6.1 litre 85 bhp 4 cylinder petrol), CX11 (Gardner 5LW) and CX13 (9.1 litre 120 bhp 6 cylinder petrol, or Gardner 6LW). Production stopped during the war but restarted in 1945 with the emphasis being on diesel power (Albion changed from indirect to direct injection in 1937), though the petrol options remained. The post war Valkyrie was offered as the CX9 with 6.6 litre four cylinder oil engine (Albion always eschewed the use of the word “diesel”), the CX13 now being fitted with the EN242, the oil version of the 9.1 litre six cylinder developing 105 bhp. A four speed constant mesh gearbox in unit with the engine was standard. The CX9 continued to be available until 1950, but the CX13 was replaced on the home market in 1948 by the fundamentally similar Valiant CX39 which had the more powerful 120 bhp EN243B 9.9 litre engine employed in the Venturer CX37 double decker. All Valkyrie and Valiant production ended in 1950, and Leyland took over the Scotstoun firm in the following year.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
22/11/17 – 07:41
Interesting photo and stuff, Roger, thx. Somehow, the whole look of the vehicle is somewhat spoilt by the rather small and therefore out of proportion radiator. Pre-war chassis were better in this respect and if there was a large sun across it as well, so much the better!
