Leeds City Transport 1966 AEC Regent V Roe H39/31R
Perhaps this snippet about Leeds City Transports AEC Regent V fleet number 980 which has been preserved and is stored at the Keighley Bus Museum may be of interest. 980 spent most, if not all of its service life at the Headingley depot along with the remainder of the batch 974 – 983. I don’t know the technicalities but it was fitted with some kind of modified exhaust system which gave a totally different tone to the norm, especially when pulling hard. As it passed its home depot on the routes northwards out of Leeds it was instantly recognisable by the unique sound alone. The tone was uncannily like that made by a water craft when the exhaust dips below the surface and accordingly amongst enthusiast staff 980 enjoyed the nickname “The motor boat”. Very happy days indeed.
Copy contributed by Chris Youhill
The exhaust sounds like an example of the famous AEC “straight through” exhaust – common on Regent IIIs, less common but not unknown on Regent Vs.
My passions are AECs and bodywork by Burlingham, Roe and Weymann. What a fine photograph of a beautiful bus. I am actually very concerned about the future of a similar bus ex Sheffield B fleet number 1330 registration number 6330 WJ which has been in the limbo of being half restored at Sheffield, South Yorkshire. An almost identical 2D3RA of 1960 vintage.
David Oldfield
I know the Mark IIIs wonderful barking “straight through” sound that you mean – this magnificent recital was fitted to most if not all of the Leeds City Transport “PUA” registration batch, of which 674 was undoubtedly the finest as it bellowed its way through the City Centre usually on services 42/66 from Harehills to Old Farnley/Leysholme Estate.
However the “motor boat” sound produced uniquely by 980 was quite different and was somewhat muffled and refined, perhaps best described as gentle “under water” bubbling. What priceless memories we are lucky to enjoy.
Chris Youhill
Work is well underway on the above vehicle…this site will be kept informed of developments in due course.
Mick Holian
Leeds City Transport always seemed to have a well turned out fleet of interesting vehicles, but seeing and hearing one of their many Regent Vs was to many of us the icing on the cake. Whether it was a handsome Roe-bodied example, or one of the plainer (but slightly more imposing?) MCW ones with exposed radiators, it didn’t matter. To the ear they were just the same – gorgeous! Perhaps best summed up as the mechanical sound effects of a Routemaster, coupled to the exhaust system of a decent sports car?! They were once a common sound booming their way up The Headrow past Lewis’s. If you were lucky enough, sometimes a skilled driver with a tuned ear would ‘hold’ a bus on its exhaust bark for quite a distance up the gentle incline. Bliss!….and a damned sight better than todays droning Volvo B7TLs!
Brendan Smith
Mention of the PUA registered 1952 AEC Regent IIIs brings to mind the Roe advert which adorned Leeds timetables for many years 669 was used until the nineteen sixties when it was replaced by a dual doored AEC Reliance in 1967 this was replaced by 131 the first of Leeds 33 foot Fleetlines the last Leeds bus to appear was a 1968 Daimler Fleetline with Roe dual door body. A small batch of these AECs carried very shapely Weymann bodywork.
Chris Hough
The six handsome Weymann “PUAs” were numbered 649 – 655 and they were a pleasure to behold from outside, and when on board you could enjoy some of the last Leeds buses to have the “warm” light beige window surrounds – I always thought that the subsequent silver ones were harsh and a retrograde step.
Chris Youhill
I have quite a collection of LCT photos click here to view. Some of them should bring back an odd memory or two!
David Beilby
25/09/11 – 07:18
Some of these AEC’s had a short spell with Tyne and Wear PTE (formerly Newcastle Transport) I believe they had been let down with a delivery of new vehicles and the AEC’s were brought in as a stop gap. They were used on the 18/19 Walker Circle route and were still in their LCT livery, but the panel around the radiator grill had been painted yellow.
Ronnie Hoye
25/09/11 – 09:00
I think that the L.C.T. buses that went to Tyne and Wear initially went to OK Motor Services but were not used by them. Tyne and Wear also painted the first panel on either side in their yellow livery.
Philip Carlton
25/09/11 – 09:03
They did look interesting in Newcastle didn’t they ?? The one in this picture though, 980, travelled even further north and served with A1 Services of Ardrossan in another fine green livery before being “repatriated” and is now approaching restoration to perfection standards at Keighley Bus Museum.
Chris Youhill
25/09/11 – 15:20
Further to my comments about LCT Buses in Newcastle, ironically, not long before the arrival of the LCT buses, Newcastle had decommissioned their own Park Royal bodied Mk V AEC’s, some were low bridge variants for the No 5 Ponteland/Darras Hall route, I also seem to remember some other foreigners from Edinburgh and Leicester were in Newcastle at the same time.
Ronnie Hoye
26/09/11 – 15:06
The PTE in Newcastle suffered a severe vehicle shortage and purchased a small number of ex Leeds AEC Regents and at least one Roe bodied PD3/5 all had PTE Yellow applied to their bonnets In addition the PTE loaned buses from Plymouth (MCW bodied Atlanteans) Lothian (Alexander bodied PD2s) Bournemouth (Atlanteans with Newcastle style MCW bodywork) Leicester (PD3s with East Lancs bodywork0 and Southend (Fleetlines with NCME bodywork)
Chris Hough
29/01/12 – 17:48
Yep about half a dozen Regent V”s and the PD3/5 along with all the other exotic birds were allocated to Byker depot and we had a trip out to photograph them. To add to the interest the restored Newcastle Leyland PD2 (in blue livery) and some ex Standerwick Bristol VRLL”s for the ferry services were also on shed. Newcastle was a very interesting place at that time. I am told that the Regents subsequently went to the magnificent OK motor services but not sure if they were ever used (possibly cannibalised for parts?)
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Alexander H37/28R
This photo was taken just after lunch but as you can see this Regent V has the interior lights on, what a miserable day that was. I know this is not a very good shot but it is worth posting due to the fact that most Alexander bodied Regent Vs were delivered north of the border with the majority of them being to Glasgow Corporation. I think this vehicle one of a batch of 20 delivered to the Sheffield A fleet were the only ones delivered new to an English operator, if I am incorrect I am sure someone will let me know.
Sheffield like quite a few municipalities had separate fleets wholly or jointly owned within the overall operation.
Sheffield had three fleets A, B and C and were owned as follows.
A fleet Corporation owned (fleet numbers 1-999 in 1965)
B fleet Jointly owned by the Corporation and British Railways (fleet numbers 1251-1400 in 1965)
C fleet British Railways owned (fleet numbers 1150-1250 in 1965)
If you want to know the full specification for the Regent V 2D3RA you can look it up under the Regent V abbreviations here.
The only operator of this style of Alexander outside Scotland to predate them was Cardiff – definitely not England.
861 – 880 were the precursors of many Alexander bodies for STD, SYPTE and then Mainline. They looked good, and being AECs were good and sounded good. For some reason, the numbers didn’t add up. The Weymann and Roe 2D3RAs were all H39/30R(D – Roe) with bags of leg room. The Alexanders were H37/32R and whilst lack of legroom downstairs was understandable, what wasn’t was the distinct lack of room with fewer seats upstairs.
I have an unsubstantiated theory about the design – can anyone confirm, or squash it? Many 1940/50s Alexander deckers were built on Weymann (pre Orion) frames before this design emerged. Is it too fanciful to suggest that it was based on the same design and frames as the Rochdale Regent Vs and Sheffield Regent IIIs and Titan PD2s? [Curved domes and side windows?]
This Regent is on route 92 Manor Park – very close to the City Centre and would normally have had City on the blind. The photograph looks as if it was taken very close to the new Supertram depot and Park and Ride site which was not a regular haunt for these Regents. When new they could be seen on the 95 and 75 tram replacement routes and also drifted onto 60 and 38. Was this taken late in its life? The Alexanders and Roes were divided between Leadmill and East Bank garages, the Weymanns were all, I think, at East Bank.
874 was immaculately restored some years ago and is a regular on the northern rally circuit. But (trivia time), why did the last one (880) have a different type and style of rear number plate? I don’t know! If you know please leave a comment.
David Oldfield
02/03/11
Enjoyed the posting and the comment from David Oldfield with respect to the Alexander bodied Regent V’s. I must confess to liking the Weymanns a bit more, but the Scottish bodies certainly stood out with that rounded dome. When still relatively new, I remember these Alexanders often making a Saturday appearance on the 34 Petre Street – Graves Park, along with some of the Weymann ones, running from East Bank, and they looked even more unusual on there, alongside the 1947 vintage Weymann bodied Regent III’s of the 558-572 batch that were still the mainstay of this service at the time. In fact two 30 footers arriving at Reform Chapel within minutes of each other was apt to cause a bit of a problem, as there wasn’t a lot of room to spare at the bus stop alongside the chapel opposite the chip shop! I think the reason for 880 having a different rear end, with the registration plate in the standard position at the offside corner was that it had a rear end collision at some point, and emerged from Queens Road after repair in the altered state, thus making it unique in the batch. When new, a colleague informs me that all the Alexanders initially went to Bramall Lane for the 33 and the 75 tram replacement routes, with the 26 Weymanns being split between Bramall Lane and Leadmill Road. Noteworthy on the Alexanders was the first offside window behind the cab being a hinged emergency escape window, something which of course the Weymanns didn’t have. At least three of those superb Roe bodied ones were at Townhead Street when new, for use on the 85 to Retford, and also on the Dinnington services, where their platform doors were no doubt very well received, especially in the cold weather. The story has it that the Roe bodies initially lacked a centre stanchion on the platform, these being fitted sometime later after an unfortunately fatal accident which was attributed to the lack of a grab pole. More trivia!
Dave Careless
03/03/11 – 08:53
Dave. Thanks for filling in the allocation details. Townhead Street and Branhall Lane were operational when I was very young but had closed by the time I became really interested. I had forgotten, but you are absolutely right in every respect about the Roe centre stanchion and the fatality.
David Oldfield
04/03/11 – 07:39
Thanks David, I’m pleased you found that of interest. Those Roe bodied Regent V’s were wonderful machines, I always felt they looked a lot more elegant when they were new, with the standard Roe version of the Sheffield livery, with the blue window surrounds, and the classy bodybuilders gold transfer on the waistband, at the side of the cab and just forward of the entrance, very smart indeed. And the styling of that Roe emergency window simply couldn’t be beat! After Chaceley T. Humpidge took over as General Manager in 1961, and did away with the livery variations, including the grey roof after first overhaul (not that any of 1325-1349 ever saw this application), the Roes never looked quite as smart in the standard cream with blue bands, but that’s merely a personal preference. It’s a pity that you missed Townhead Street in its heyday, as that was quite something to see, with the trams downstairs in the basement and the buses up above, and a parking area along the side where half-cab single deckers seemed to invariably sit. Mind you, passing Greenland Road or Herries Road late at night, with the lights blazing and the garage and forecourt stuffed full of immaculate cream and blue buses, was equally as breath taking if you were an enthusiast! Quite often my father would indulge me and pull the car over for a few minutes so I could savour the atmosphere and jot down a few numbers; happy days.
Dave Careless
04/03/11 – 17:19
Happy days indeed, Dave. Barbie just doesn’t do it. Nor does red, white and blue – but at least Mr Souter does know how to run a bus company even if Dennis Dust Carts have as much charisma as a wet weekend in….. (fill your own space – I don’t want to upset friends on this site!) If you read any other posts, you’ll know my thing is AEC, Roe and Burlingham – so 1325-49 are my all time favourites, followed by the nine 1952 Regent IIIs. [I too preferred the Weymanns over the Alexanders.] Strangely enough, my favourite PD2s were the 1952 all Leylands which eventually gained Roe style livery after being delivered in green. I believe they were the only brand new green deliveries – or were the 1952 Regent/Roe rebuilds also delivered in green?
David Oldfield
06/03/11 – 08:06
You’ve got my vote there, David; funnily enough, those twelve OWB registered PD2’s were far and away my favourite Sheffield Titans also, they somehow looked a cut above the Faringtons, I think it was those push-out vents in the upstairs front windows that gave them the edge! Before I came to Canada in the late fifties, I made a regular weekly excursion with my mother from Rotherham to the grandmother’s in the east end of Sheffield, accomplished by bus and tram, a 69 from Rotherham to Attercliffe, and a tram from the corner of Newhall Road to Upwell Street, and reverse. In those days, the 69 offering was either a Sheffield PD2 or a Rotherham Crossley, either of which was guaranteed to provide a memorable journey, but if it happened to be one of the OWB’s that turned up, then that was definitely a bonus. The unmistakeable sound and steady beat of that Leyland engine is such a strong recollection that I can almost hear it now as I sit typing in Canada fifty plus years later. The world seemed to be a different place then, and I also travelled on the bus unaccompanied a lot at an age where it would be deemed unthinkable to allow children to do so today. I once travelled to Sheffield upstairs on a Rotherham Crossley that was packed with Sheffield Wednesday supporters heading to an evening match, and the air upstairs was blue with cigarette smoke and strong language, to the extent that I was enjoying it so much that instead of alighting at Newhall Road as I was supposed to, stayed on into the Wicker and had to catch another bus back to the east end. I can still see and hear that Crossley now, pulling away up the Wicker towards the terminus at Waingate, well down on its springs at the back with the nearly full load and trailing a plume of exhaust smoke behind it into the city centre. Those weekly outings on the 69 were sorely missed when they eventually came to an end. Of course, one of the OWB’s, 666, lived on as gritter/towing tender G56 for many years, and was a regular sight at one time, struggling back to East Bank with yet another broken down Atlantean hanging off its back. I’m not sure how, but even with its upper deck and most of the back end missing, it still managed to look more elegant than half the modern things it was sent out to rescue!! Not quite sure just when and where those Roe rebodied FWA-Regents got their green paint applied David, that one needs a fair bit of research. Good question though.
Dave Careless
06/03/11 – 09:06
Strange. An exile in Surrey corresponding with an exile in Canada. Good this internet, eh? I first went solo, on a bus, aged ten. From Greenhill to Woodseats on an SWE Regent III – and similar back – on an errand for my father. Mission accomplished, my second solo was to town and back on the same afternoon on two similar vehicles. After that, there was no going back! My experience of the 6** PD2s was mostly on the 93 and occasionally the 32 to visit Grandparents. They never seemed to be on the 23 when I visited the other Gps.
David Oldfield
09/03/11 – 06:05
Those SWE-Regents were cracking machines, superb looking, with their chromium wheel nut rings, which they seemed to keep right to the end, and the sound they made, with that straight-through exhaust, was quite something. What one wouldn’t give for a run from Greenhill to Woodseats and back on one of them today. Even my father, who wasn’t into buses at all, was heard to remark ” …. those Sheffield buses have a wonderful bark to them!” I still have a slide I persuaded him to take one day at Reform Chapel, in the east end, of SWE 281 waiting patiently for the crew to return from the nearby cafe before setting off for Hollythorpe Rise. Could that really have been 49 years ago??!!
Dave Careless
10/03/12 – 07:42
Talking of the terminus at Reform Chapel, we had a choice of two routes to centre at that time, the 34 Petre St to Graves Park or the 17 Sheffield Lane Top to Millhouses Park which had been recently been a tram service, being only about eight or nine when the trams ran, I wish I had been a little older so I would have had more interest in the trams, as it was my brother and I loved to stand at the front of the bus looking out over the engine compartment, which we considered the best view out of the bus, how disappointed we were when the Atlanteans were introduced and lost this vantage point! The uses on the 17 route were usually Leyland PD3’s as I found out later in life, as it sped down Attercliffe Road, we peered at the square speedometer to see if the bus would get up to or even break the 40 mph barrier, my fathers car at that time was a two cylinder Transit sized Jowett Bradford van which struggled to get over 30 mph downhill with wind behind us! Great days which the children of today will never know the adventure of bus travel, the smell, the noise and the vibration, more’s the pity.
David T
10/03/12 – 15:58
It’s hard to believe that an OWB was used as a towing tender, with something like a mere 36bhp on hand! That’s really pushing such a willing workhorse to near cruelty!
Chris Hebbron
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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/03/12 – 07:47
With great respect David T I had to chuckle at the promotion of the Jowett Bradford van to “Transit” size – I think that such a colossal vehicle would have brought the willing little power unit to its knees, but the Bradford was a wonderful little van of around “Escort” size. In 1960 there was in Ilkley a delightful very elderly posh lady who used the most decrepit of all Bradford vans – both front wings were literally almost falling off and several volunteers were regularly needed to push start the van on the Ilkley car park. Well Mrs. S***** used to revel in telling us of her exploits and narrow escapes with a mischievous twinkle in her weary old eyes. My favourite (and one of her best) was when she was on the A59 in Preston heading for Blackpool – descending a hill towards the huge Tulketh cotton mill she encountered a bobby on cross roads point duty with hand raised – shooting past him she eventually rolled to a stop to find the PC chasing after her, notebook and pencil at the ready. “Have you no brakes on this vehicle” demanded The Law – leaving him perplexed as she set off Mrs. S***** replied “Of course I have officer – they simply failed to function !!”
Chris Youhill
11/03/12 – 07:50
I almost fell for that one Chris H!!
Chris Barker
11/03/12 – 08:56
Forgive me for being off topic but Chris Y’s tale of that Jowett Bradford van brought back old memories of one owned by Mr Mc.Maughan a local painter and decorator who was a bit of a carefree old sort and used to wipe his brushes out on the side of his van! Originally a mid fawn colour, it became covered in hundreds of multicoloured stripes.. it didn’t go any faster though..30 mph was a dream! Mentioning paint… when we lived in Conway Road, Brislington, Bristol, our neighbour Bert Staddon was an engineer at Bristol Commercial Vehicles and once hit on the strange idea of painting the stonework of his house in BCV silver chassis paint. That was in 1958 and to this day, it is still clearly evident but must have puzzled many people over the years..good stuff though! Again..total apologies for this thread drift.
Richard Leaman
11/03/12 – 15:48
As a youngster I made regular Sunday trips to Sheffield to see relatives. We travelled from Leeds to Sheffield Midland station, we then walked across the city to the terminus of the sixty nine to Rotherham. The buses seen were always of interest particularly the early Atlanteans which were unheard of in Leeds. Sheffield’s buses always seemed very different to those in Leeds Usually our steed was a Leyland Titan which always had a fair turn of speed they had string bell pulls which again were unknown in Leeds as was the strap placed across the platform when the bus was full. Prior to nineteen sixty if we were upstairs on the bus I got a glimpse of Tinsley tram depot with many cars resting from their labour, strangely I don’t recall ever seeing a Sheffield car actually running. It all seems very different to today were only the destinations tell you that you are in a different place
Chris Hough
11/03/12 – 19:33
Chris Y – Lovely tale about the Bradford. I have a friend who worked for Brooke Bond and they trundled around the country stocking up shops with Lever Bros/Unilever products. They were allocated Trojan vans, some of the earlier ones still having chain drive! They were gutless and, as a new employee, you covered staff who were on holiday or sick. His first job was in the South Wales Valleys and he got stuck a couple of times on the hills and had to be assisted to the top of hills. He later found that the normal driver had devised a fixed route, which had gentler rises and steeper falls, the only way he could do the rounds! Later models had Perkins diesel engines,, which had a little more power.
Chris Hebbron
11/03/12 – 20:13
The mention of Trojan Vans reminds me that Edinburgh Corporation Passenger Department had a good number as service vans.
A. Mayne & Sons 1965 Regent V 2D3RA Neepsend H41/32R
Another independent bus operator but this time from the other side of the Pennines, A. Mayne & Sons operated in the Manchester area. I must admit I know very little about A. Mayne & Sons but I have two photographs of AEC Regent Vs that are worth posting, so if anybody as any information about them please leave a comment and I will add it as an update.
This Regent had a body built by Neepsend formally Cravens of Sheffield South Yorkshire and the livery at the time if I remember correctly was a dark red body with three pale green bands, although I do stand to be corrected if you know better.
Maroon with turquoise bands would be more accurate. In later years they adopted a red and cream livery which was much more modern-looking, but far less distinctive! Maynes sold their bus operation to Stagecoach four or five years ago, but the name is kept alive by the coaching operation based on Warrington, which is actually the former Barry Cooper business. There is a nice story that back in the 1930’s Manchester Corporation offered to buy out the Maynes business. The reply was that this was an amazing coincidence, as Maynes were thinking of making a similar offer to MCTD!
David Jones
Another piece of interaction between Maynes and the Corporation may be worth recording. In the mid-1960s Maynes had a half-share in Manchester’s service 46 to Droylsden, as shown above, and also their own unnumbered service along the main road to Audenshaw, which ran in competition with Manchester’s trolleybuses. Since the trolleys operated under light rail legislation and were outside the Road Service Licensing system, this made Maynes the sole licensed operator of local (as opposed to limited stop) buses on the stretch of main road beyond the Droylsden turnoff. When the Corporation wanted to run motor buses on the trolley routes, they had to apply for a licence, to which Maynes objected on the grounds that it was their patch! This promised a real David and Goliath battle in the traffic court, but sense prevailed and a deal was struck instead. Maynes got the other half of the 46 (which they had always wanted) and both their objection and their Audenshaw service were withdrawn.
Peter Williamson
I’m not familiar with the “half share” referred to by Peter – but as far as I recall only Maynes operated the 46 from Stevenson Square to Droylsden [Sunnyside Road]. During the early Selnec years Maynes continued to operate the route which was renumbered 213. The story I was told was that Maynes started the 46 route when Droylsden was still being built and the roads unfinished. When the roads were completed Manchester then wanted to operate the route as well. Maynes are said to have objected and won their case with the only restriction being passenger pickup only between City centre and Ancoats – outbound and passenger drop off only from Ancoats to City Centre – inbound.
It is also interesting to note that up till the recent acquisition of Maynes local bus services by Stagecoach – Maynes original route 46 [subsequently 213] was their only local service which I think remained as such until the deregulation era. They then increased the number of routes between Manchester and the Ashton area. Of note is that ALL their routes went via DROYSLDEN, maintaining their original commitment to service this area.
Roy Oldham [Expat in London Ontario Canada]
According to “The Manchester Bus” by Eyre and Heaps, the 46 was jointly operated by Manchester and Maynes from its inauguration in 1958. However, “half-share” wasn’t quite right, as I have found a table of joint services in 1962 which shows that the all-day service required 3 buses, of which 2 were Manchester’s and 1 Maynes. Maynes original route – started in 1926 – was from Newton Street to Kershaw Lane, Audenshaw, although inbound buses always showed “Dale Street” as that was where the alighting point was.
Peter Williamson
I cannot comment on what the “Official” arrangements were between Maynes and Manchester – all I know is that I travelled between Stevenson Sq and Pollard Street quite frequently in the late 50s to late 60s and if not using the 215/216 trolley bus would take the 46. Invariably the return trip would be on the 46 as the trolley buses didn’t return via Pollard Street. If Manchester was in fact operating two out of three vehicles the odds are that I would get one, whereas in reality it was always a Maynes bus that came.
Roy Oldham
What became of the 46 service started in 1933 as a shuttle service from Edge Lane to Manor Road which connected with the existing Audenshaw service. As that area of Droylsden developed the service was extended gradually until it reached Sunnyside Road. The inconvenience of changing buses at Edge Lane became an issue and in 1958 the service was extended into the City and was numbered 46 by Manchester Corporation who became a joint operator in the ratios previously described. Peak hour extras were additional and provided by MCT in summer and Mayne’s in the winter. As Peter has already said above, the 46 became worked exclusively by Mayne’s following the abandonment of the Manchester trolleybus system.
David Beilby
Recently Buses Mag published an interview with Julian Peddle who at one time was Traffic Manager at Maynes, seemingly the financial arrangement with MCTD was that they paid Mayne’s a mileage rate who then paid MCT all their takings, an arrangement very beneficial to Mayne’s !
Andrew Critchlow
14/09/11 – 07:58
I was born and bred in Droylsden near the cemetery. I used the 2 Maynes services for many years until I went to London in 1959. When the Edge Lane to Sunnyside Road changed to no 46 Limited stop from Stevenson Sq I came home from work on it. I used the 215 216 to go to the City as the Maynes was usually full by the time it got to our bus stop. Sometimes I used it to go home until no 46 started as the walk from the stop on Manor Rd was shorter. When at school I used the 216 to Ashton and the Hurst or Smallshaw Circular or walked to school from Ashton market. My uncle Bill was a driver for Maynes and if I was on his no 46 going home he used to stop earlier than the bus stop so my walk was shorter. My Dad and Arthur Mayne were friends.
Alan Bevins
07/11/11 – 12:21
I use to use the Maynes bus in 1965 to get to work. I use to meet my father and we would go together on the bus from Sunnyside Road terminal to Stevenson Square and visa versa. Brilliant service and always full of people travelling in the early mornings and again at night.
Marie Mckenna
10/11/11 – 07:42
I now have a copy of the Maynes book by Venture Publications, and it gives a slightly different version from the Manchester book of the joint working arrangements on the 46, namely two Maynes buses and one Corporation rather than the other way round. Plus the peak hour extras referred to by David B.
Peter Williamson
12/03/13 – 14:05
In addition to the services listed above, Maynes also had a road service licence for the Droylsden to Audenshaw Grammar school bus which was operated as what would be known now as a commercial service. I travelled to school on one of the Regent V’s every day on this service in the 1960’s. Later I found myself driving Fleetlines and VR’s for Maynes for a short while – very nostalgic with Ultimate ticket machines.
Bill Lear
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
12/05/13 – 06:53
In 1964 I co-organised a student- teacher PD1 Leyland decker trip to Moscow from Manchester and as I wanted to keep my PSV licence going, I drove part-time for Maynes Buses from 1965 until I left Manchester in 1978. At the time I was teaching first at Manor Road Primary and then at Bishop Greer Secondary in Gorton. I lived on Greenside Lane near the Clockhouse terminus. My inauguration was on GUF 678 – a Leyland PD1 slow gear change, so I had no problems in satisfying the requirements. (the drivers used to say “You can light a fag in between gear changes”) Mr Palmer was the manager under Arthur Mayne Jnr. and Alex was the mechanic. I drove on the last Kershaw Lane route (Dec 31st 1965) when they changed the route from trolley buses and swopped it for the 46 Droylsden Route. My first trip from Droylsden, Market Street to Mayne Road was a different story. I was given an AEC Regent II FT 571 with a quick crash box change and I could not find any of the gears. I got the timing wrong and could not stop with the vacuum brakes at Edge Lane Traffic lights. With the help of the passengers they directed me to Mayne Road. Phew! I thought my days of driving for Maynes were over, but they were just beginning. Last journey was on a Bristol VR to Rochdale VJA 666S. First new bus was on a Sunday morning in July 1965 Regent V CXJ 520C. It had air brakes and stopping was very fierce. I remember one man hitting the bulkhead as I braked for Market Street on route to Kershaw Lane, Audenshaw. Oh Dear !! I could share many comments as I drove all the fleet of deckers. My favourite was Ex Oxford synchro 27ft 7194 H. The pre selectors were also good ECY 874.
John Brown
04/12/18 – 07:17
Just a very small correction to John Brown (above), 7194 H had, prior to Maynes, been an AEC demonstrator, but I believe it did carry City Of Oxford Motor Services livery at the time.
Bradford Corporation Transport 1963 AEC Regent V 2D3RA MCW H40/30F
I have a personal “adoration” for these BCT Mark V Regents – a liking in which I appear to be virtually alone !! The “Mononcontrol” vehicles were in the minority, the first twenty only, the remainder of the large fleet being of three pedal four speed synchromesh specification. The Bradford attractive livery and superb internal fittings, materials and seats cured any suggestion of “plain-ness” in the MCW bodies. However it was in the mechanical area that these buses were so appealing. They had the open exhaust system with exhaust brakes and made magnificent sound effects, both when slowing down or when pulling hard away from stops and up hills – Church Bank was a treat not to be missed. The wonderful pre-war vintage type sounds from the AEC gearboxes and arguably inadequate clutches completed this delightful mobile symphony. Sadly though they appear to have been loathed by drivers and passengers alike, apparently giving a very rough ride indeed unless expertly handled by someone with a real interest in the job. There is a fabulous chapter about them in Mr. J. S. King’s superb volume on BCT buses, in which their Southall character is well and truly assassinated from all quarters of the City. I remember one Saturday evening visiting Saltaire Depot after the last trolleybus had left there for ever. The yard was full of brand new Mark Vs, and someone had taken the trouble to very accurately set every route number to “OIL” to rub it in so to speak. Here is a picture of one of the synchromesh motors, number 168, making noisy (magnificent for me) but light work of Morley Street en route for Buttershaw.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
These were direct contempories of Sheffield 64 – 73 whose only sin was to have monocontrol rather than synchromesh boxes. In this respect, their 1960 sisters 435 – 460 had the edge. As an out and out Roe man, I am, nonetheless, a Weymann supporter. Apart from an aberration with the 1956/7 Regent III/V with lightweight bodies, all Sheffield Weymanns – including the two batches mentioned above – were finished to the highest standards. I never felt noisy or rough riding were apt descriptions of Regent Vs and I preferred the sounds of the manual versions – although the monocontrols did have a slight suggestion of the preselect sound!
David Oldfield
Although I am unfamiliar, personally, with these vehicles, I can readily understand why drivers disliked their exhaust brakes if they were anything like the ones I knew. Maidstone & District, a company about which I do know a little bit, had some Guy Arabs with exhaust brakes, which made an appalling, quite deafening noise in the cab when the brakes were applied. Half an hour driving a bus fitted with one would give you a headache for the rest of the day. They were only an auxiliary, of course, and either the mechanism failed in use or was disconnected at Chatham Depot, where the vehicles were based. A truly dreadful feature.
Roy Burke
Having driven Bradford 220 at Keighley Bus Museum many times I can understand why drivers disliked these Regent Vs. They are noisy, with very fierce brakes and a juddering clutch which makes them difficult to drive smoothly, especially in traffic or in hilly country (and Bradford has the odd hill!). In Bradford Corporation Transport days they were notorious for breaking injector pipes, to the point where a fitter was employed virtually full-time in the City Centre just to keep up with breakdowns. One of our (sadly deceased) former members who worked for YWD always referred to the Regent Vs as “overtime buses” he reckoned they were the finest bus ever invented for generating overtime for fitters!
David Jones
I have to agree with Chris Youhill’s sentiments regarding Bradford’s Regent Vs as I too adored them! I recall them taking over from the lovely trolleys on the Saltaire/Bingley/Crossflatts services in the sixties. As a ten year old I was bowled over by the wonderful sound effects and impression of speed when riding on these beasts. The rear ‘stopping’ signs beneath the back windows instead of traditional brake lights were so modern. Certainly the attractive Bradford Corporation Transport livery showed the bodywork off to good effect, and they could hold their own with the West Yorkshire Lodekkas plying alongside, as far as interiors were concerned. Raucous? No-just full of character!
Brendan Smith
Thank you for your support Brendan – much appreciated indeed.
Chris Youhill
Fine Machines!.. Unloved by most people, but simple to work on, Melodically on Parr with a popular Beethoven!.. As regards the exhaust brake?.. I did come across a brand new one boxed up in our stock sometime ago.. in time I shall track it down and install it!
Mick Holian – B.C.T. 220 Custodian
I know from Sandtoft and elsewhere Mick that you DO know how to drive these characterful machines properly, 220 in particular, so keep up the good work !! You won’t remember me, but you once long ago very kindly allowed me to turn back the clock and sit again behind the wheel of Leeds City Transport 980 in the museum at Keighley. Then we had a useful chat about a certain aspect of Mark V accelerator pedals.
Chris Youhill
Well, Well, Well! Yes I do recall that conversation Chris!.. that’s sometime ago isn’t it?… I sorted the problem with some rubber hose & new springs! to say the clatter on the over run was a niggle was a massive understatement… it drove me mad! And yes I remember being scalded by the Sandtoft Natives for making too much noise & driving too fast! You will be pleased to know that I have been quietly rebuilding the front of Leeds City Transport 980 from parts sourced from an Ex-Southampton turned glider winch Regent V, The museum is planning to use it on a class 6 from early 2011, If I have my way? which I should as I’m doing the work? it will be presented in the livery with the red wheels.. fingers crossed! can’t wait to hear that go through its gears! I am also hoping to have Bradford Corporation Transport 355 Fleetline make an appearance later this year, its coming together nicely, take care Chris, really good to hear from you & watch this space!
Mick Holian- Keighley bus Museum.
Many thanks Mick for your kind message and news of very impressive progress – I agree that 980 will be most authentic and impressive in the “red wheels” livery. I’ve never yet been to the new Keighley premises and must do so soon. My first experience of the Mark V “pedal chatter” was with the six new ones which we had at Samuel Ledgards, 1949-54 U. These had synchromesh gearboxes and the large flat pedal as opposed to the smaller “ball” type. The half mile where the quirk was at its worst was when descending the A65 from Horsforth to Kirkstall Forge. There were at that time a good many hidden ripples in the road surface, and during braking the free rattling of the accelerator pedals was actually sufficient to cause the engine to pull against the brakes – a very strange sensation indeed.
Chris Youhill
After the really top of the job Mark III the Mark V was a different animal, bigger heavier and with the AV690 engine they were a let down, a 50’s obsession in the industry with fuel consumption had them fitted with synchro boxes. Generally with easier steering, softer feel brakes they were nicer than contemporary Leylands but not as mechanically strong. The Met Cam Aurora body was not good, they rotted badly, rained inside, had poor heaters and were often described as fitters friends. WYPTE examined fitting Dorman V8 engines in an effort to improve performance but opted to put 95 Metropolitans into Bradford instead, they were mechanically even worse! especially the HR501 hydraulic gearbox. The last two were much much better with mono control and 760 12.47litre engines VROOM!!!!!!!!!!
Christopher
The mists of time have caused most folk to forget that the first forty Scania Metropolitans were ordered by Leeds City Transport – an absolutely astonishing move for such a conservative and careful operator. They were delivered to LCT, but not placed in service, just before the formation of the PTE in April 1974, and many were first stored at Middleton Garage where they huddled uncomfortably together – many top decks touching – as their air bags were of course empty after a while. I know they had a wonderful performance, but I believe the fuel consumption didn’t bear thinking about. Despite their very limited success, I thought they were most handsome vehicles.
Chris Youhill
One of Leylands better legacies was that, through licensing manufacture of what were excellent engines – particularly the 0.600/0.680 family – the line lives on in the superb modern units produced by both Scania and DAF/PACCAR.
The Metropolitans suffered by being quick and encouraging a sprightly style of driving which was not very economical. This might have been forgivable, but the bizarre use of a two speed torque converter transmission gave these machines a big “drink problem”.
The biggest weakness – which was never solved to the end of MCW days – was a tendency for the metal frames to rot. This often gave “modern” MCW products a shorter life than they perhaps should have enjoyed.
David Oldfield
I am so happy that I found this site by accident, although quite a veteran myself I’m in the modern passenger transport industry – a driving instructor for Arriva, the Shires. I am in awe of the knowledge of your principal contributors. As a boy in Shipley W Yorks., I used West Yorkshire’s 66 service to Forster Square, Bradford and Bradford Transport’s trolley to school in Saltaire.
Bill Loy
Oh what happy days Bill – I was a young conductor on West Yorkshire (Ilkley Depot) in 1960/1 and many’s the time our Lodekka drivers were left gasping in the offside lane by the wonderful Bradford trolleybuses as they “mischievously launched at speed” from the stops in Manningham Lane and Frizinghall. I spent my last fourteen years of a fabulous and enjoyable forty four year career as a driver for South Yorkshire Road Transort/Caldaire/British Bus/Arriva “serving Yorkshire” at Pontefract Depot (now demolished).
Chris Youhill
Leeds 150 short AEC Regent V delivered in 1956/57 were all light weight affairs but the body style was pure Roe being a natural follow-on to the AEC Regent III delivered in 1954 The lightweight vehicles in later years were absolute rattlers with every opening window and seat back vibrating as they idled, particularly on hills. The first 30ft AEC Regent V were a very different kettle of fish being bodied by MCW and being unusual as they carried exposed radiators. They had a massive presence in the flesh and were and still are amongst my favourite Leeds buses.
Chris Hough
I was a student in the late 70s in Bradford. Unfortunately by that time the Bradford blue had been replaced by the none too attractive green and cream of WYPTE. Nonetheless, I always wondered how they ever managed to climb the hills out of the town centre. 2168 was a regular on the 63/636 up to Heights Lane and Sandy Lane and hearing the gears crash as it set off up Oak Lane out of St Mary Rd. Compared to the CVG6s which also operated the route they were noisy beasts but had loads of character. Ah, fond memories!
Phil Ashton
I agree entirely with Chris Hough about the fifteen exposed radiator Mark Vs at Leeds – they were magnificent motors and in my opinion very handsome too – although after all these years I am now used to endlessly defending the “Orion” type bodies which are much maligned for some reason. I try not to decry batches of buses per se in their entirety, but oh how I loathed the gutless rolling little lightweight Mark Vs at Leeds. Mind you its perhaps fortunate that the Leeds policy of “cutting engines down” restricted them to only just over 30 mph. That rearward facing seat for five was nothing short of obscene, with passengers’ knees unavoidably jammed between those of people sitting opposite. As I said earlier in this topic, there can be few batches of vehicles with as much individual character and impressive performance as the wonderful Bradford Mark Vs – I’ve always loved ’em !!
Chris Youhill
As I’ve suspected for a long time, Chris Youhill is a man after my own heart. My preference is always for a big engine with plenty of torque. An AEC man to my marrow, I have never been much of one for the medium weights – particularly the deckers. We never had any in Sheffield, they would never have coped with the hills!
David Oldfield
The photograph of 168 labouring up Morley Street with the sun shining after a spell of rain is superb. Services 9/10/12 Buttershaw-Stanningley were operated jointly by Horton Bank Top and Thornbury Depot. I would hazard a guess that 168 was a Thornbury vehicle. I was the last person to be employed in the BCT Traffic Office at Forster Square. I joined the undertaking on 1 October 1973. By this stage the bulk of the Regents were to be found at Ludlam Street and Thornbury Depots with small allocations only at Bankfoot, Bowling Depots etc. Ludlam Street operated the following rosters: Eccleshill (43/44), Fagley (14/34), Haworth Road (29/32/33/35), Huddersfield (63/64) Leeds (72/78/272), Tyersal (30) and The MBMR (Motorbus Miscellaneous Rota – ‘The Old Mans Road’). Funnily enough the Stanningley roster at Thornbury was full (as were most Thornbury rosters, except Wibsey which covered the 45/46) except for one driving line against a conductor whose name I cannot remember but whom no one was prepared to work with on a regular basis. I recall vividly that the Eccleshill, Fagley and Haworth Road rosters had few regular drivers, which was something of a puzzle. Now, looking back, I wonder whether this was due to the Mark Vs, which were often to be found allocated to these duties. I suspect that the drivers felt that working a duty on these rosters with a Mark V on overtime was just reward for the effort involved.
Kevin Hey
Always loved the Regents, living in Fairweather Green as a kid we tended to get Leylands on Thornton Road but the AECs were always a favourite. Im more of a lorry enthusiast and surprise surprise a big AEC fan
Paul G
Re. Bradford`s Mk V Regents; I rode on these regularly, and they always made me think how inferior they were compared with the refinements of the Mk.111 !! However, they were something to enthuse over, and became something like a “Bradford Standard”. I could never forgive them though for their part in the demise of the BCT trolleybus system!
John Whitaker
I did about 4 years at BCT in the early sixties , and remember the Regent Vs as fantastic work horses – but the brakes were rather “savage”. I worked out of Ludlam St. but also had a 12 month spell out of Duckworth Depot mostly on the Thornton route – many fond memories.
Tom Mirfield
26/08/11 – 07:21
I remember the original batch of PKY-registered Bradford Mk. V’s bursting impressively and noisily on to the scene on the 64 service when travelling from Brighouse to Huddersfield with my mother to visit my grandfather. I was seven years old, already a bus enthusiast, and I was very impressed with them. I started driving for Halifax Passenger Transport in 1973. There were still more than half of their own Metro-Cammell bodied Mk V’s in service, and they were OK, though getting a bit tired and leaky. There were also three ex-Hebble ones – one having Northern Counties bodywork – and these went much better, and were far nicer to drive. Then shortly after the formation of WYPTE, Metro Calderdale found itself with a serious vehicle shortage, and a number of interesting buses were borrowed from other districts for a few days. Amongst these were several ex-Bradford Mk. V’s, all still in blue and cream. This didn’t go down very well with most of the drivers, who generally detested AEC’s. They were returned after a week or so, but then in October 1975 two more – 2209 & 2213, also in blue – appeared, this time officially transferred. 2213’s stay was only to be very brief, coming to a sticky end when it failed to negotiate the right-angled bend over the disused railway bridge at Holmfield Mills one frosty morning. 2209 stayed for six months. I got to drive it a couple of times and it was brilliant compared to ‘our own’ Mk V’s. Then a further three came in February 1976. 2136, 2137 and 2138 they were in PTE livery, and they stayed with us until the July. I have always been an AEC man, but these were a revelation. Yes they were noisy, whiny and raucous, had jangly accelerator pedals and may not have been as technically durable as they could have been, but they had so much in-your-face character and were an aural delight. In fact, I have driven buses in Halifax for over 38 years now, and if I had to nominate my all time favourite bus from the point of view of absolute driving pleasure, it would definitely be 2137. On Saturdays we had a duty which came out of Garage at 10:43 then worked Boothtown ‘flashbacks’ – three per hour in between the 76 Bradfords. I always tried to persuade the Shed Foreman to allocate me a Bradford Mk. V, and he usually obliged in order to get rid of one to a driver he knew would not ring it in. This could well be a really tedious duty, especially if lumbered with a tired out old PD2, or a thoroughly horrible early Fleetline, but with a Bradford Mk. V I was like a pig in you-know-what all day. In those days Boothtown Road was built up just about all the way, and the trick was to adjust the engine revs, gearing etc. to create maximum aural effect, so that the raucous, growling, booming exhaust reverberated off the stone buildings. Our own Mk. V’s did not have the ‘booming’ exhaust feature and so were nothing like as gratifying. Finally one Saturday, word came that they had to go back to Bradford. There were not enough garage staff to oblige so being a spare driver that day I was asked if I would take one over to Ludlam Street. Silly question of course, and I grabbed 2137 and headed in a roughly Bradford direction. This must have been the longest journey a bus ever made between Halifax and Bradford ! Eventually I reached the City Centre and decided as a final gesture I must take it around Forster Square and sweep up Church Bank as I had seen – and particularly heard – them do so many times in the past. The sound effects still echo in my mind to this day. Brilliant !
John Stringer
26/08/11 – 09:23
Nice story John, I can still hear that exhaust!
Roger Broughton
26/08/11 – 10:07
What a wonderful story John, and you are obviously as fond of the Bradford Mark Vs as I am. There can be few models/batches in PSV/PCV history with as much gutsy and unashamed character as these buses – they seemed to cheekily proclaim “Hold onto your hats for a thrilling ride, and if you can’t take it get a taxi !!” You did right to fit in a memorial ascent of Church Bank and I too, can still hear the magnificent concerto. I believe that there were frequent vacancies for organists at the Cathedral as few could compete with the Southall Symposium !! Somewhere I have a very old cassette which I recorded one Saturday night on a Bradford Moor bound Regent – propelled by undoubtedly the worst driver ever – he should never have passed his test, but for enthusiast pleasure purposes it was magnificent ride never to be forgotten.
Chris Youhill
26/08/11 – 14:27
The regular vacancies for organists at the Cathedral were due to the clergy from hell. [I mean it can back up my comments with evidence!] You can’t blame it on the Regent Vs.
David Oldfield
26/08/11 – 18:03
I have really enjoyed the correspondence on Bradford`s notorious Mark Vs, especially the comments from those “in the know” who drove them! As an enthusiast, I well remember the first ones in 1959, the PKYs, and the 5 1961 UKY batch. They all seemed to be quite heavy and substantial buses, and made nice noises (!!). They were ordered by the Master himself, C.T.Humpidge, and were the first dd. motorbus orders since the 1952/3 HKW batch of Mark 111s, and consequently re-ignited a lot of enthusiast interest in what was still the “Trolleybus era”. 126-135 though, were ordered by Mr Wake, and made the most unpleasant reverberating noise, and, replacing trolleys on the Bradford Moor route, seemed almost static when climbing Church Bank. The trolleys just glided up! The following 90, up to 225 in 1964 were more like the 126 batch, and what I can say, with certainty, is that most Bradfordians expressed a hatred for them, as did, I believe, the engineering staff. This is not to say that there wasn’t a certain attraction about them. I was a regular rider, and cannot remember any other batches which suffered so many breakdowns and problems, but it is this notoriety which, as an enthusiast, attracted me to them. I would say, looking back, that most of the Bradford bus enthusiast fraternity were of the trolleybus ilk. I was as far as BCT was concerned, and it is perhaps this which colours our remembrances of them. They were trolleybus replacement vehicles. How dare they! I am sure, however, that they did not demonstrate that level of sophistication which the Mark 111s had, or the PD2/3, and subsequent Leyland and Daimler deliveries. Nice, however, that they are so well remembered, and I must visit the preserved one at Keighley! Does anyone know when the last survivor ran for the PTE fleet?
John Whitaker
26/08/11 – 18:04
The mention of Halifax brought back memories of my own experiences with the HPTD Regent Vs. I was a Traffic Clerk at Skircoat Road in the mid nineteen sixties, and we office types (having been put through the PSV test by GGH) would volunteer to cover the second half of late turns in the week, or a full late on Saturdays. I much preferred to do a turn on the Brighouse – Hebden Bridge run whenever possible, and a Regent V was frequently the beast that turned up on taking over the wheel. They were easy to drive, having much lighter steering than a PD3, and the all synchromesh box was a doddle to use, but the noise from the engine and gearbox was unimaginable at times, including the hellish racket from the accelerator pedal when one was braking or descending hills. The very light clutch needed careful handling to avoid judder on pulling away. Also, unlike those of the Regent III, AEC brakes of that period were not progressive. Depression of the pedal brought no effect until suddenly the the brakes came on fiercely. Easing off the pedal then did nothing until, with a hiss of air escaping, the braking effect was lost. Why AEC lost the ability to design smooth progressive air brakes I do not know, but this was a feature of AEC air braked buses, including the Reliance, for years afterwards. I am not a great AEC fan, and the Regent V is part of the reason for this. Geoff Hilditch of Halifax was not an admirer of the Regent V either.
Roger Cox
27/08/11 – 07:20
Oh Heck David – I’m in deep water here am I not ?? My comment about the ability of the Mk Vs to “see off” the Cathedral organ was meant to be a comical one – I had no idea that there had actually been a high turnover of organists caused by the “opposition clergy” to who you refer.
Chris Youhill
27/08/11 – 07:21
Roger says in his last post that Geoff Hilditch was not a fan of Regent Vs In his guise as “Gortonian” in the sixties and seventies he rightly states the Regent III was one of the best buses he had the pleasure of working with. My home town Leeds certainly got the best out of their 30ft AEC/Roe Regent Vs However the short light weight tram replacement examples dating from the late fifties were nowhere near as good being absolute rattlers by the end of their lives. Now the MCCW bodied 30 footers of 1960 were a whole different kettle of fish and to mix metaphors were definitely my cup of tea!
Chris Hough
Truth is always stranger than fiction, Chris. My spies in the South confirm that Sheffield had no particular problems with Regent Vs and Charles Halls states that engineers regarded the late ones as among the best vehicles they had run. Regent IIIs were evidently better, but so were later dry-liner Reliances (AH691/AH760)….. and I wouldn’t give a Medium (really light) weight decker house room anyway (whether AEC or Alexander Dennis)!
David Oldfield
28/08/11 – 15:48
This may be an urban myth but I was always told that Yorkshire Woollen cut down the engines of their Regent Vs and that AEC ordered that their AEC triangle badges be removed. A certain person who is today a PCSO who worked in the paint shop at Dewsbury kept them in his locker.
Philip Carlton
29/08/11 – 07:52
Philip, it may be an urban myth but it’s a widely known one.
David Oldfield
28/09/11 – 07:06
Re Aec badges on YWD Regents. Quote from Buses Illustrated Dec1964 “The AEC Regent Vs are being “spoiled”, we hear. The chromium radiator surrounds are being painted red and the grilles black. The famous AEC triangle is being removed”.
John Blackburn
14/11/11 – 07:53
Sorry but can’t share your enthusiasm for Bradfords manual Regent V’s bought by the ex St Helens Manager (Wake) for Trolleybus replacement although I must admit they lookrd very attractive in Bradfords Blue and Buttermilk. AEC’s straight cut gears gave an almost 30’s sound. The manual gears were not really suitable for stop start on Bradfords hills and with the help of ex trolleybus drivers clutch life was appalling until AEC fitted Mamorth Major (Very Stiff) clutches, To try and improve things the last two 224 and 225 were expensively converted to AV691 engines and Monocontrol gears but no more were done due to cost. My mother used to refer to them as “those jerky buses” and often waited for one of my beloved AEC Regent III’s with very musical preselectors from Bank top shed. The last batch 195-225 were better trimmed in “felt pen friendly” light blue and dispensed with the fierce exhaust brakes of the earlier ones..
Kev
28/11/11 – 10:35
Oh Dear ! People are very polarised about the merits or otherwise of AEC Mark Fives it seems, but sometimes I feel the point is completely missed. It all depends on your point of view. As a bus driver, but also an enthusiast, I found that driving a good one was simply a most enjoyable experience, particularly in the sound effects department. Very sensuous even. Sorry, but I just did ! This despite all their indisputable shortcomings – unreliability, self-detaching injector pipes, weak and temperamental hydraulic clutches, general noise level, rattily accelerator pedals, bonnet lids that blew open in crosswinds, keen brakes and poor accessibility for maintenance due to their tin fronts….. and so on. As a passenger or general observer, but also an enthusiast, I still believe that Hebble’s earlier Mark Fives – the rear entrance ones with the Mark Three type A218 9.6 engines were the most aurally spectacular buses I have ever encountered, with their loud, growly open exhausts and booming exhaust brakes which could be heard long before you ever saw them. They were also very lively performers. Some of the best, most exciting bus journeys I ever had were between Halifax and Bradford on these buses, being driven with vigour. This despite their harsh riding characteristics, thin uncomfortable seat cushions, and very basic, lightweight and ultimately rust-buckety Orion bodywork – the first two having the most unprepossessingly ugly and uncomfortable lowbridge version. Actually, these two were not as lightweight (at 7tons 5cwt) as the three highbridge ones (at 6tons 16cwts). Non-enthusiast drivers, which accounted for the majority, generally detested them – certainly they did at Halifax. However, Mark Fives were in a minority there, outnumbered by PD2’s and PD3’s. Most Halifax drivers tended to adopt a ‘Leyland Style’ of driving, and were not inclined to adapt to the different requirements of the AEC’s. Ex-Hebble drivers, previously used to little else, appeared to be more sympathetic towards them. You had to drive an AEC like an AEC. Non-enthusiast passengers riding on them probably just found them very noisy and a bit hard riding. Non-enthusiast passers by and people living nearby their routes probably found them unacceptably raucous. Certainly from a purely non-emotional, operational, engineer’s or passenger’s point of view they were often far from ideal. The previous 9.6 litre Mark Three with preselector gearbox was certainly considerably more reliable, durable, refined and easier to drive – in my opinion one of the best city buses ever. I have driven several different preserved ones in the distant past – ex-Halifax, Huddersfield, Morecambe & Heysham, Liverpool and London Transport examples – and they were all great buses, although the Halifax one was a bit noisy and had Park Royal bodywork constructed from matchsticks. Its framework creaked alarmingly and seemed to move in several directions at once, and the experience was like driving a large, rotting preselector garden shed on wheels. I believe it’s a lot better nowadays. From the late 50’s Halifax would almost certainly have been far better off with a fleet of Daimler CVG6LX’s with semi-automatic gearboxes – like neighbouring Huddersfield – especially if they could have had Roe bodies as well. Excellent, reliable, indestructible, powerful, worthy Gardner-engined chassis, yet from my experience as a enthusiastic driver (we had some ex-Leeds ones for a while), well……a bit lacking in character. Dull even, some have said. Similarly equipped Guy Arabs would have been similarly worthy, and would probably also have whistled too. Bristol FLF Lodekkas were also really sound, engineers’ buses, but we couldn’t have those. Then what was a Regent V anyway ? It came in many forms. It could be medium or heavy duty. Tin-fronted or with traditional exposed Regent III front. It could have the earlier A218 9.6 unit from the Mark Three, and the similar but larger A222 for export. AV470, AV590 or AV690 wet liner engines, A few late ones had the far superior AV691 dry liner unit (surprisingly the excellent AV505 was never offered in place of the AV470). Some even had Gardner 6LW’s and mechanical preselector boxes, and even the 5LW was offered quietly. They could have synchromesh or Monocontrol semi-automatic gearboxes. They could be 27 or 30 feet long, 34 feet for export. Right or left-hand drive. The Mark Threes and Fives were a bit ‘mix n’match’ in the 50’s, and Alan Townsin (The Oracle) stated that the only crucial distinguishing feature that determined a Mark Five from a Mark Three was the use of four inch wide front springs, instead of three and a half inches. Some combinations were quite good, others not so. There were undoubtedly ‘better’ buses, but the thing about being an bus enthusiast is that you can be as irrational and illogical as you like in your choice of favourites. You don’t have to be too concerned about reliability and all those things – just appreciate them, warts and all, just as you do with your family and friends. Great, isn’t it ?
The City of Oxford Motor Services 1956 AEC Regent V MD3RV Weymann H30/26RD
City of Oxford I think were one of AECs most loyal customers. According to my 1963 British Bus Fleets South Central book it states that as from 1927 apart from a batch of 5 Dennis Loline Mark IIs delivered in 1961 with AEC engines by the way, all their vehicles were AECs. Interestingly enough the next batch of vehicles ordered after the Lolines were AEC Bridgemasters. What I find strange, and I hope someone can explain why it was that the Bridgemaster had been available from 1956, why wait until December 1961 to take delivery of their first batch. Not to mention the fact that they took delivery of 15 lowbridge Regent Vs as well as the 5 Lolines in the 56 – 61 period. As a matter of interest they also took delivery of 30 highbridge Regent V MDs and 16 LDs in the same period of which the vehicle in the above shot is one of the first. It was chassis number 29 of the MD variant and had as can be seen an exposed radiator rather than the more recognisable concealed version more associated with the Regent V. All City of Oxford 27ft Regent Vs were MDs (Medium Weight) having the smaller AEC AV470 7.68 litre six cylinder diesel engine. But they were not quite so loyal when it came to body builders Park Royal and Weymann were the norm for the double deckers, apart from a batch of 5 Regent Vs and the Lolines that had East Lancs bodies and the first batch of front entrance Regents that had bodies by Willowbrook. I am afraid that is where my information ends but if you know something that maybe of interest to others your comments are more than welcome.
I think you’re a little unfair about loyalty with bodywork. When you buy one car or bus at a time you can be loyal to one maker. When you bulk order you have to be aware of the capacity of the supplier – which is why most large operators (even London Transport) dual sourced. At least COMS managed fidelity to AEC – with which I would fully concur – and the two bodybuilders were among the acknowledged best at their craft at the time. [Lolines were only available late in Weymann’s life but maybe they were arguing with Dennis for an AEC option when the body style and finish of the Bridgemaster was truly dreadful.] Whatever the reasons; maroon, cream and duck-egg green AECs – that is the heyday of a superb operator.
David Oldfield
P.S.Re-reading Alan Townsin’s chapter on the Bridgemaster in his “Blue Triangle”….. The original version was attractive with curved profile and aluminium body but BET were likely to be the model’s biggest customer. They wanted steel frames and single skin domes, like the MCW Orion, and a wholesale re-think had to be made. Very few of the original Crossley built Bridgemaster’s were made before it was totally retooled and production moved to Park Royal from whence came the uglier production model. This probably helps answer why COMS didn’t buy Bridgemasters before 1961 – that and being on the end of a queue which would involve PRV vehicles for other customers. The Bridgemaster was now firmly based in London and would, or could, not be sub-let to Crossley or Roe.
I don’t know who took this photograph but I know the setting is Gloucester Green Bus Station in the heart of Oxford. Oxford Bus Co’s livery was absolutely gorgeous, restrained and stately but still gorgeous!!
George Taylor
23/03/13 – 08:02
Eventually this ended up with Wallace School of Transport as a driver trainer bus – I took my PSV test on it in 1970
Brian Lamb
23/03/13 – 12:28
Coming from a Leyland/Daimler Orion bodied stronghold on my visits to Oxford with my father in the late 1950s/early 1960s I always thought this batch had a certain refined air about it. Again, coming from the a place where the Orions were coated in acres or red or green the Oxford livery was to my eye very attractive. A few words on the Bridgemaster. Alan Townsin is, of course, correct regarding the BET demands for the Bridgemaster. The original bodies were developed from a specification drawn up at Park Royal but the final design and build was by Crossley at Errwood Road using the basic outline and many of the panel sizes of the then current Park Royal design it was also building. It is interesting to see that a few of the design touches of the original were incorporated into some orders throughout the production run see: www.brindale.co.uk/ Whilst Graham Hill’s information on the site is a little suspect e.g. his contention that the Lodekker (sic) had saturated the market leading to poor Bridgemaster sales, the pictures show well the versions of the final design though, as it is a Park Royal site, omit pictures of the Crossley version shown here: www.sct61.org.uk/ I was told by an ex Crossley employee who was there to the end that the transfer of the Bridgemaster to Park Royal, which was pretty much the final nail in the coffin of Crossley, would not have been so final had there been a commercially viable demand from non BET operators who would have specified the original body, leaving Park Royal to deal with the BET revamped design. As it was, no significant interest was shown and the shut down went ahead. Regarding Oxford’s order, whilst BET companies could deviate from group policy, at the time the group was pressurising its constituents to take the Bridgemaster. With a very much AEC dominated fleet Oxford found it hard to resist unlike Ribble, North Western and other fleets which had either a Leyland dominance or a more diverse fleet.
Phil Blinkhorn
26/03/13 – 06:38
While the redesigned Bridgemaster is widely regarded as a styling disaster, it is often forgotten that some of the rear-entrance examples were nothing of the kind, as is well illustrated by the photos of the Sheffield buses on Graham Hill’s site (see Phil’s brindale link above).
Peter Williamson
30/10/16 – 06:28
Watching a 1963ish Youtube video on the Outwell and Upwell Tramway I saw a familiar sight: a 1949 City of Oxford AEC Regent III with 56-seat highbridge Weymann bodywork stopping to pick up a lady—and here’s the less familiar bit—who was standing on the railway track. The by then diesel-hauled farm-produce trains that ran along the roadside made only a handful of trips a day so using the tracks as a bus-stop posed little danger. I couldn’t make out an operator’s name, but I’m sure someone here knows!
ps. I should have said that the film is Huntley Archives no 521. OFC 383 here appears to have platform doors, which I thought were fitted by Smiths of Reading on acquisition. Could this bus have passed from Smiths to a third life on the Fens? If so, that would date the picture to about 1966-67.
Ian Thompson
30/10/16 – 14:41
I think that the Regent III is OFC 390 which was acquired by Smith (Bluebell) of March in February 1962 and was fitted with doors for them. It lasted until March 1966.
Nigel Turner
30/10/16 – 16:21
I thought that the Oxford “Country Buses” – out of town services like Kidlington – of that eras had doors from new?
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
A Mayne & Sons 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Park Royal H41/32R
As there has been a recent article about A Mayne & Sons on the “Articles” page I thought this shot was appropriate. Here we have a rear entrance Regent V working its way through the busy streets of Manchester. It is fairly obvious to say the least, that it had a Park Royal body the top deck is very Bridgemaster. Maynes had three of these Regent Vs registrations 6972-4 ND all delivered in December 1961.
2D3RA Regent Vs were 30ft long, most 27 footers were 2MD3RA (etc). LD3RAs were the original 30 footers with the earlier Regent III type A208 engine – as were the D3RVs of (for instance) Sheffield and Liverpool. The series 2 models were brought in on the introduction of the wet-liner AV590 engine (AH590 in the Reliance). Some confusion arose, initially, when some were known as 2LD3RA models but eventually all became known as 2D3RA. Similar confusion arose with later Reliances with 8U3ZR (coil springs) and 9U3ZR (12 metres) models eventually giving way to 6U3ZR for all variations and lengths of the 691 and 760 Reliances. We can blame BET for the Bridgemaster ugliness of these, and the East Kent, Regent Vs.
David Oldfield
Regent V Mk 1: D and MD were 27ft long, LD was 30ft. Regent V Mk 2: 2MD was 27ft long, 2D could be either 27ft or 30ft. Maynes were 30ft, as indicated by the seating capacity.
Peter Williamson
There’s no doubt about it, Mayne’s was (and is) a fascinating operator, worthy of interest but, I feel, very under reported through the years, in fact I don’t recall seeing pictures of any of their vehicles before the Regent V’s. It would be nice to see a fleet history also.
Chris Barker
Venture Publications produced a well illustrated history of Maynes a few years ago which also contained an abridged fleet history. Don’t know if there are any left, but it might be worth trying their retail arm’s website (mdsbooksales). If not the book is widely available on stalls at rallies etc as a second-hand item. Hope this helps.
Neville Mercer
08/06/14 – 14:17
Talking about AEC Regent Vs, their designations, lengths, and capacities, I have a query which I have posted elsewhere, but, up to now, drawn a blank. Garelochhead Coach Services purchased six Regent Vs new, plus, I think, a second hand one later. The ones purchased new were of type MD3RV or 2MD3RA, i.e. 27-footers with the smaller engine. All are recorded as having been 64 or 65 seaters, apart from the penultimate one, 49 (DSN 657D), which has always been recorded as a 73 seater. In photographs it looks to have been the same size as all the other Garelochhead Regent Vs, and the only suggestion that there was anything different about it comes from the body number, which apparently had an ‘A’ suffix. Can anyone explain?
Bolton Corporation 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Metro Cammell H40/32F
Taken in Bolton bus station this Regent V is working route 81 Four Lane Ends I’ll come back to the destination later. This was one of a batch of six Regent Vs they were the first and only AECs that Bolton took delivery of since the solitary AEC Q of 1933. Their post war double decker fleet apart from the odd batch of Daimlers CVGs and quite a few Crossley DD42/3s have been Leyland Titans and Atlanteans. All Bolton vehicles passed over to SELNEC on the 1st of November 1969. One of the Regent Vs registration SBN 767 fleet number 167 as been preserved and there is a very good shot of it here and guess what the route number and destination is.
Linking this post with the Bradford post and Chris Youhill’s most recent comments. Nothing beats a Roe decker for me but, as I have said previously, I fully agree with Chris that the Orion is much maligned. Apart from the first “lightweight” models, the Sheffield examples were always well turned out and finished. I too, have a soft spot for them. These Bolton examples look to be in the same mould, but are strangely out of place in this fleet. I never remember them in my time in Greater Manchester from 1971 to 1980.
David Oldfield
Sister vehicle SBN 767 is currently in the care of the Bolton Bus Preservation Group but is off the road awaiting restoration. BBPG’s active fleet includes former Bolton Transport East Lancs bodied Atlanteans 185 and 232 and similar (but longer and delivered in SELNEC orange) 6809.
Neville Mercer
11/05/11 – 07:13
Yes the sister vehicle is still barely in existence however it is in a very poor state after being abandoned on a farm for a number of years. I’m led to believe that the farm owner is due to cut up and scrap the remains due to the fact that the owner/s haven’t paid any rent for the vehicle.
A. N. On
12/05/11 – 07:10
I believe the route the bus is working on is a short-working of the old SLT trolleybus route from Bolton to Leigh from Howell Croft bus station. I think the full route to this day is still numbered 582.
Dave Towers
14/09/12 – 06:52
Just to get things correct the location is Howell Croft South. Howell Croft was split in two when the Town Hall, seen in the background, was doubled in size. The 81 was in-fact a short-working on the 82.
Malcolm Gibson
03/11/14 – 06:31
A short lived colour scheme … seemed odd at the time … but when a few of the older Leylands were painted in this scheme … definitely odd!!
Iain H
03/11/14 – 16:27
The colour scheme was Ralph Bennett’s first as Manager, based on the Plymouth scheme from whence he came.
Phil Blinkhorn
04/11/14 – 06:44
This colour scheme on this chassis/body combination gives them quite a Hebble look.
John Stringer
05/11/14 – 06:32
It always puzzled me why Bolton bought these, as they were completely non-standard. The pre-Atlantean fleet was quite a mixed one really, as though they couldn’t make their minds up quite what they wanted – although basically Daimlers and Leylands with MCW or East Lancs bodies, hardly any two batches were the same – 30′ Daimlers with rear entrance MCW or front entrance East Lancs, PD2s with full-front MCWs, PD3s with rear or front entrance East Lancs, or full fronts, etc.
Michael Keeley
05/11/14 – 11:33
I think that often when an operator – particularly a municipal one – purchased an odd batch of vehicles that seemed ‘non-standard’ to mystified enthusiasts it was usually to do with the tendering process resulting in an offer they couldn’t refuse (in the interest of saving ratepayers’ money) or the manufacturer being able to offer more attractive delivery dates than the preferred supplier.
John Stringer
05/11/14 – 15:37
John makes an excellent point. Many a manager who, for excellent engineering or operational reasons, wanted a particular vehicle type, found himself over ruled by his committee for political or “economic” reasons. One of the most crass decisions was that of the Manchester Committee which denied Albert Neal his desired Tiger Cubs and forced the Seddon bodied Albion Aberdonians on him, breaking their own Leyland/Daimler only purchase rules and then, as Leyland owned Albion, having them listed as Leylands and having the Albion badges which Seddon had affixed, removed. Of course the vehicles had a long, distinguished career – long in being kept as often as possible in the depot, distinguished in being of poor finish, ride and serviceability.
Phil Blinkhorn
06/11/14 – 06:10
Manufacturers sometimes did bid low in an attempt to penetrate a “glass wall” of long standing custom and practice in purchasing followed by some municipalities. Municipal General Managers did succeed in getting their own way much of the time, as could be seen from the often dramatic change in favoured manufacturer following the appointment of a new GM, but Transport Committees were the ultimate power, and a low quotation would have been mightily tempting to the custodians of ratepayers’ money. (One can imagine the heated reaction in camera from a GM who had suffered the imposition of an unwanted vehicle type in the fleet.)
Roger Cox
20/07/15 – 05:38
Yes, I always thought the same as Michael about Boltons fleet. They seemed to have a lot of small batches which were all different, some 27 feet long, some 30, some with tin fronts, some St Helens moulded fronts, and some exposed radiators and also the same with Daimlers. When they changed to Atlanteans they seemed to become more standardised, some of the earlier ones had Metro Cammell bodies, then they seemed to standardise on East Lancs.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Devon General Omnibus & Touring Co Ltd 1964 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Willowbrook H39/30F
This very good looking Willowbrook bodied AEC Regent V of Devon General is I think about to start on its long distance run to Plymouth. It had not been in service very long when this shot was taken in the summer of 1964. It is on route 128 which was Torquay to Plymouth, the via blind reads Ivybridge and Totnes but on looking at a map it should be via Totnes and Ivybridge, still it will be right for the return trip. This route was one of the joint service long distance routes operated with Southern & Western National. Devon General also had an agreement with the largest city in their area Exeter, so Devon General buses did quite a few inner city routes and City of Exeter buses would be seen on some of the out of city routes.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
It is possible that the intermediate display is printed so as to show the places only once, thereby being “wrong way round” on every other journey. This was a fairly common practice where operators quite reasonably sought to avoid wastage of the expensive material.
Chris Youhill
It is a very smart body, perhaps slightly marred by the heavy look of the sliding windows. Amazing how rear wheel ‘spats’ always improve the look of buses. Was this a common feature of Devon General?
Chris Hebbron
24/03/11 – 17:25
Most Devon General AECs had rear wheel trims (dustbins) fitted which improved appearance and made it much easier to keep the wheels clean.
Royston Morgan
15/05/13 – 15:29
Does anyone have any information on a very old green bus (could date from as early as the 1920s) which was sited in Wakeham’s Field in Shaldon, Devon in 1951. I came with my parents and sisters to Devon that year and we lived for nine weeks on the camp site whilst waiting for a house. We lived in an old bus for the final few weeks. It had been partly adapted as living accommodation. It had a former Admiral’s (or Captain’s) bathroom area installed – a quite grand mahogany wash basin which lowered down. I have recently seen one of these contraptions on the Antiques Roadshow. I think we still had to pour water from a container into the basin but it drained away after use into the area which would once have been the driver’s place. The bus itself had long seats on the right side as you went in – rows of them I mean, rather than the normal two x 2 each side. Each seat would have taken 4- 5 people. I think some of the windows may have been painted over – probably because there was no way of having curtains. I have never seen a bus of that design anywhere other than the Midlands in the late 40s.
St Helens Corporation 1957 AEC Regent V MD3RV Weymann H33/28R
The letter in front of the fleet number denotes the transport committees sanctions codes for new vehicles, I think I have seen this before with another operator but who just slips my mind at the time of writing. I am not quite sure as to why it is used unless it is a way of dating the vehicles. The strange thing is that it was only used on their double deckers mind you when this shot was taken in the summer of 64 St Helens corporation only had 4 single deck vehicles. Three AEC Reliance Marshall bodied buses and rather strange for a corporation fleet a Leyland Leopard L2 centre entrance Duple Britannia coach. Not quite sure what that was used for, school children to the swimming pool perhaps or for private hire, they would not of been the first municipality to go down that road.
H or L often meant High or Low bridge? Some municipalities would have coaches to take civic parties on tours of inspection- eg the planning committee!
Joe
It’s been said before, and it’s still true. In the right livery, the Orion could be a handsome beast. This is an excellent example. [So is an STD Orion!]
David Oldfield
In this colour scheme, being light on the top half, the whole vehicle looks balanced and attractive. And the rear wheel spats give a touch of class!
Chris Hebbron
Sheffield had the (in)famous 9000 WB, a Reliance/Roe Dalesman C37C – for the use of the Transport Committee but available for Private Hire. It was alleged that this was bought “because Leeds had one” – but I do not know whether this was true. Salford had a late (1962) Weymann Fanfare/Reliance which became an airport coach after SELNEC took over. It replaced a Daimler CVD6/Burlingham – both originally committee coaches. The St Helens Leopard was a 1962 Motor Show exhibit and is pictured in Doug Jack’s book “Leyland Bus”.
David Oldfield
You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head David. In the right livery the Orion could indeed be a handsome beast. In this neck of the woods Samuel Ledgard operated four ex-South Wales AEC Regent Vs and an ex-Tyneside Leyland Titan PD2 with such bodies, and they looked a treat in Sammie’s blue and grey livery. The Regents were somewhat spartan inside mind you, but they had the most beautifully raucous exhaust note to compensate. Following Ledgard’s takeover by West Yorkshire in 1967, the AECs were numbered DAW1-4 and later allocated to Harrogate depot. My brother and I would deliberately walk from our usual stop in Bilton, to the one at the top of King Edward’s Drive, just for the sheer pleasure of catching one into town (and obviously back!!). They were generally to be found on the 1/2 Bachelor Gardens-Woodlands and the 9 New Park-Oatlands services, which suited us just fine. At the time I had a morning paper round, and so was also treated to the glorious sound of them barking their way up Bachelor Gardens or the Hill Tops just after seven each morning. Fabulous!
Brendan Smith
DAW 1 – 4 were indeed vehicles full of character Brendan. DAW 2, MCY 408, was the first Ledgard vehicle to be painted in West Yorkshire colours quite soon after the takeover. Along with all the AECs it was initially allocated to Otley and while working the last journey home at 22:35 from Cookridge Street it failed at the Gaumont Cinema (as was). It was taken to Roseville Road and treated to a mechanical wash with a vengeance – being 14’6″ inches high it fouled the washing machine and suffered a damaged front roof dome, it was quickly repaired and became the first red “Sammy’s” double decker since G.F.Tate’s WN 4759 in 1943.
Chris Youhill
20/11/11 – 07:30
The Leyland Leopard L2 coach was number 200 (SDJ 162). On October 9th 1965, I had booked to go, as a Liverpool fan, to Old Trafford to see Liverpool play Manchester United. My friends and I went by bus from Huyton down to Lime Street as we had booked on Crown Tours of Liverpool to get to Old Trafford. I had a pleasant surprise to find that our coach was SDJ 162, on hire to Crown. However we lost 2-0 to goals from Best and Law, so the coach remained the highlight of the day. It was later part exchanged against Bedford VAM 201 (KKU 77F) and was not traced after that.
Dave Farrier
20/11/11 – 13:35
David Oldfield mentions above the fact that Sheffield had a coach because Leeds had one. Leeds first coach was a 1965 AEC Reliance with a Roe body based on the Roe bodied AEC Reliance service buses bought at around the same time It was numbered 10 ANW 710C and was bought for private hire it went into preservation but its current whereabouts are unknown. Just before the PTE took over a trio of Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopards were also purchased numbered 21-23 MUG 21L etc
Chris Hough
20/11/11 – 14:44
Chris. How interesting – since the Sheffield one predated your Leeds one by about seven years. The story mangled the facts a bit, evidently. As a matter of fact, I actually drove 10 when it was owned by Classic Coaches of High Wycombe on a private hire from Reading to Lord’s Cricket Ground, London, and back. It was of Classics original fleet of four (including a West Riding Dalesman, a “Brown Bomber” Harrington and a Royal Blue MW/ECW). Mr Crowther then grew too quickly and went pop – after which I lost track of his vehicles. A lot of the interesting ones found further homes in preservation – it is to be hoped that the three Reliances above were among them.
David Oldfield
22/11/11 – 07:27
David This posting proves what a small world it is! I went to secondary school with David Crowther and later worked with his wife. Like many enthusiasts I think he let his heart rule his head despite training as an accountant
Chris Hough
22/11/11 – 09:16
Small world indeed. A very nice man – but not a successful operator – but I know a number of “professional” operators who would fit this bill as well. [I also know a number of the latter who run the ship with military precision but are thoroughly unpleasant people to work for!] PS David had a cracking pair of Leyland engined REs as well!
David Oldfield
13/07/12 – 06:10
I went to school on this vehicle. If I remember I think the Letter in the fleet number was related to the registration number. A DDJ bus would be D### and K199 was a KDJ registration.
Geoff Atherton
14/07/12 – 18:09
To pick up a point raised in the original post, about “sanction codes” in front of fleet-numbers: the ten AEC Regent Vs delivered to Bradford Corporation Transport in November 1962 (126-135) carried the code “A” – they were the only vehicles so to do. These vehicles had been ordered in March 1961. John Wake, GM at St. Helen’s, had been appointed GM at Bradford in March 1961 . . . but left for Nottingham in July 1962. This innovation didn’t survive beyond his departure – although the St. Helens-style three piece destination layout did, and the earlier Regent Vs (106-125) were converted to this layout. I gather, from J S King’s excellent three-volume history of BCT, that John Wake didn’t stay long at BCT because his anti-trolleybus views put him in conflict with a good proportion of the Transport Committee . . . although that didn’t, during his short tenure, stop him pushing through the agreement in committee that led to the final decision to decommission the trolleybus operations.
Philip Rushworth
05/08/12 – 07:24
Re the comment from Geoff Atherton, St Helens K199, Reg No. KDJ 999 was an experimental Regent V front entrance bus bought in lieu of the fact that Leyland could not supply Atlanteans. She was unique to the Corporation and as far as I can remember had the nickname “Big Bertha”. She ended up on the 309 service from Burtonwood to Southport, but had a habit of running out of diesel on route. Apparently, whilst on charter to Blackburn, she also dropped part of her engine on the nearside lane of the M6! As far as I am aware, she is still extant in the North West Transport Museum in St Helens.
Alan Blincow
22/08/12 – 14:58
St Helens Corporation had a kind of year letter system but it was only briefly used on double deckers. Some had the letter stencilled internally, others didn’t. Some had just the fleet number at the front of the bus, others didn’t. It was only used between 1954 and 1966, the final six Leyland Titan PD2As and three AEC Regents (1967) were just 50-58. Letters A-D were retrospectively applied, A being pre-1945, B were 1945-47, C 1948. The London specification AEC Regent RT types were given letter D. Sanction E was the first to be applied new, to Leyland Titan PD2s (1954/5), F (1955/6), G (1956). H, J and K were AEC Regent Vs of 1957-59 and the first “St Helens bonnet” Leyland PD2As of 1960. Letter L applied to AEC Regent Vs and Leyland PD2As built in 1961/62. L was used for the 1965 Leyland PD2As instead of M, but these had year-letter registrations and the corporation decided that with future new buses having year letter registrations the fleet number prefix was no longer necessary so it was dropped. However many of the L prefixed buses carried them internally until withdrawal in Merseyside PTE days in the late 1970s.
Paul Mason
25/05/13 – 08:34
Re Alan Blincows post… K199 was used on the 309-319 services between Warrington and Southport extensively between 1963 and 1967 and most certainly didn’t run out of fuel on the ‘last Southport’!!!. The tank was more than ample for any duty that the Corporation ran. I think you are referring to an article in Mervyn Ashtons otherwise excellent book on St Helens Transport…. Let’s just say that Mervyn was using a little ‘poetic licence’ at times!!!. I bought Big Bertha from Tom Hollis at Queensferry in June 1978, and later sold her on to Ray Henton at the North West Transport Museum, where she still resides…
Roy Corless
24/08/14 – 10:39
Yesterday I did a wedding hire with ex St Helens AEC Regent V/MCW bus no 58. A warning in the cab says Unlaiden height 14ft 3 1/2in . So this must have been the standard for the corporation till the last half cabs were delivered
Geoff S
04/08/16 – 11:12
Does anybody know if St Helens K199 (Big Bertha) had any work done on it?
John M
01/12/16 – 06:54
In reply to your inquiry K199 has had a clutch slave cylinder replaced, But the master also needs work. This will be done sometime in 2017 to enable the bus to be moved around the museum more easily. The sides of the bus are Bulging so work is required to the main body.
John P
27/05/17 – 07:33
Update on St.Helens K199 (KDJ 999) Big Bertha. The clutch hydraulics have now been sorted and the engine started for the first time in 15yrs. It still resides at the North West Transport Museum in St.Helens, there is going to be a show next year at the town hall square where it is hoped K199 will be on display.
John P
02/05/18 – 07:50
Does any one know if Big Bertha k199 is running yet?
John M
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
10/06/18 – 08:45
Yes it is running but unfortunately it cannot be extricated from the position it is in at the museum but the interior has been completely repainted on the lower deck to the standard of what it was when it was in service with St. Helens.
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Weymann H39/30R
Nearing the ending of its days, 441 was one of 26 Weymann H39/30R bodied AEC Regent V 2D3RA delivered in April 1960 to replace trams on the penultimate route – Meadowhead to Sheffield Lane Top . There were also 20 Alexander bodied Regent V for the same purpose. The photo was taken on 13 July 1974 at Whirlow Bridge. The presence of the Roe bodied Regent V (also delivered in 1960) in the background and the group of people nearby suggests it was an enthusiasts tour. Presumably 441 was not working on a route from its home garage as the correct destination of Dore is not shown. Orion bodies can look good!!
Couldn’t get much better than that, Ian (two of my favourites) – but could you not have got the Roe bus better, or nearer, or both!!! But of course Orions can look good – especially at 14 years old. With the Roe bus being near the entrance to Whirlow Park, could it have been a wedding hire?
David Oldfield
Are all your photos this good, Ian? Do you have enough for a book? It occurs to me that, good as it is, Charles Hall’s book is photographically incomplete and that must leave scope for a “Glory Days” or some such (of Sheffield Transport) – using your photos and first hand knowledge. After the Roes, these were my favourites, but why the extra long 5 seat benches over each rear wheel arch and why, from 71 in total 1960 Regent Vs, were only a few Weymann’s fitted with exhaust brakes? [It got that I could identify individual buses, with out seeing them, from my desk at school!]
