Reading Corporation 1935 AEC Regent I Park Royal L26/26R
RD 7127 is an AEC Regent I with ‘oil’ engine, making her an O661. Those with petrol engines did not have the O prefix, and it dates from 1935. It has Park Royal bodywork, to the L52R layout, and we see it at Longcross, Chobham, on 1 April 2007.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
18/03/17 – 07:14
Sister vehicles 11 and 46 were withdrawn as early as 1950, but the Corporation gave 47 a body rebuild and she ran till the end of February ’56, to the delight of a small knot of enthusiasts, one of whom sat in the front nearside seat upstairs as she rumbled over a cobbled bridge, celebrating the fact that she was now in her 21st year of service. Seven years later Reading Transport Society member John Whitehead announced that 47 was still active, ferrying mushroom farm employees at Thakeham, W Sussex, and that the owners, A G Linfield, were shortly to donate her to the Society. In October 1963 we went down to pick her up and, being the only one of us over 21, I had the honour of driving. No bus could have been kinder to the novice: ideal driving position, excellent visibility, positive controls with no slack anywhere, nice progressive clutch and brakes, easy gearbox, reassuring stability…47 has it all. Mike Dare and I did all our pre-PSV-test driving practice on her before joining Smiths Coaches. Over the next few years we covered hundreds of miles in 47 to and from rallies, museums and—sadly—trolleybus system closures. Still in good mechanical shape, she awaits structural work on the body before being fit to carry a full load again.
Ian Thompson
18/03/17 – 16:12
Thanks for your thoughts, Ian. As previously, if you or any other members of the readership don’t have a copy of your own of this view, Peter has my permission to forward on your request.
Pete Davies
18/03/17 – 16:14
Memories of Doncaster’s Regent no 60 which apparently ran from 1942 to 1962 in a similar livery and Roe body, no doubt ferrying miners home from shift. It is no wonder that Donny seemed to like AEC’s: although nothing beats its all Leyland PD2’s with trolley rebodies which all did 25-26 years.
Joe
19/03/17 – 07:05
Provincial’s number 35 is a very similar vehicle except for being highbridge. That ran in service 1936-1966 with its original company before being sold to preservation. Its body is teak framed and aluminium panelled which accounted for longevity – does anyone know if this combination was used for other bodies by Park Royal and if they too lasted a long time.
David Chapman
21/03/17 – 15:57
Thanks for the kind offer of a copy, Pete. Superb photo!
This bus was originally a 1938 AEC Regal coach registration ACX903 fleet number 113 and it had a Plaxton C32F body. It was then rebodied by Duple in 1949 to a front entrance bus with 35 seats and renumbered 284. In 1956 the Duple Body was transferred to an ex Bottomleys Motors 1946 Maudslay Marathon lll chassis and numbered 305 with Hanson, a photo of which is here. The chassis was then rebodied by C.H. Roe and numbered 347 with a registration of KVH 889 and classed as a AEC/Hanson Regent H37/28R. On every picture I have seen of this bus the engine side panel is not fitting correctly, I wonder if it ever did. My thanks go to the Hanson section of the website belonging to Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group for all the information.
18/05/12 – 12:20
Maybe the ill-fitting bonnet cover was caused by chassis sag, especially as it was a double-deck AEC Regal! The unrelieved red does the vehicle no favours.
Chris Hebbron
19/05/12 – 07:37
The chassis of 347 was actually built up from components of two pre-war Regal chassis, 113 as stated above and ex Chapman’s Regal Burlingham coach VH 9101 of 1936 which was withdrawn in 1954 after an accident. It was the first of twenty two AEC’s to get rebuilt by Hanson’s over the next ten years and was the only one, apart from fire victim 1964 Reliance rebuild 384, not to pass to Huddersfield Corporation in 1969. 347 is far from being unique for pre war style AEC’s running with the bonnet side hanging off. For example, there are several photos around of Tom Burrows, Barnsley, very similar bodied Regents with the same problem. I’m sure I’ve seen a picture of one of Burrows Regents even running with an ex STL bonnet side in the same position. Even though it is forty six years since 347 was scrapped, and it was well passed it’s sell by date by then, I have fond memories of riding on it and listening to that melodious prewar manual gearbox.
Eric Bawden
19/05/12 – 09:16
Extant pictures of SUT Regals approaching (or beyond) withdrawal also show the dropped panel effect. Why? That I can’t say.
David Oldfield
19/05/12 – 09:17
These complex rebuilds are indeed really fascinating. At Samuel Ledgard’s we had a magnificent (I loved it) AEC “Regal” coach with Burlingham body – I wonder how many of its merry passengers knew that it was a Birmingham Corporation 1930 Regent 1 double decker !! As Eric says about the Hanson vehicle, its powerful engine and wonderful gearbox, perfectly serviceable but delightfully worn to a lovely tune, were a joy. Incredibly, as it was definitely a “one off”, it was the subject of a Corgi model – a good model if you can forgive the Duple body instead of Burlingham and the registration number incorrect – FWJ 938, should be FJW 938 – ah well, better than nothing I suppose.
Chris Youhill
19/05/12 – 15:21
While I can’t recall seeing any ill-fitting bonnet sides like that shown, I can recall lots of London Transport’s veterans buses, in my childhood, which had unsecured bonnet sides propped up only by the nearside mudguard! Maybe this was to keep worn-out engines from over-heating!
Chris Hebbron
———
20/05/12 – 07:59
I always thought CVD6’s were meant to look like that!
Here we have a picture I took at Sandtoft around 1972/3. This bus started life in 1950 with Hanson of Huddersfield as an AEC Regal III 9621E with a Duple C33F body, registration EVH 805 fleet number 295. To ‘modernise it’ in 1954 Hanson had Plaxton remove the front bulkhead and build a Venturer style full front on it. It was then renumbered 326.
In 1961 Hansons’ rebuilt the chassis and had a new Roe H37/28F body fitted, re-registered it as TVH 497 and gave it fleet number of 361. Numerically it was the seventh rebuild in the series, the fourth double decker and the first front entrance decker. It passed to Huddersfield Corporation with the stage carriage operations of Hansons’ on 1st October 1969. Thornes of Bubwith acquired it in October 1970 as their no. 57. Although listed as being withdrawn and scrapped in Thornes own lists in May 1972, it was eventually acquired for preservation. It is seen in the above colour shot in as acquired condition and what appears to be ex Aachen 22, a 1956 Henschell trolleybus with Ludewig body along side it. As this trolleybus is kept at the Sandtoft Transport Centre one must assume 361’s destination blind is telling the truth! I’m afraid I didn’t keep records of the pictures I took in those days so have to rely on detective work to place and date them. Sadly 361’s career as a preserved bus didn’t last very long, I believe it suffered a catastrophic engine failure and was sold for scrap.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Eric Bawden
13/07/12 – 09:08
Thanks for posting. I have in my “bought” collection a view of VVH 348 which, by that time, had migrated to the Porthcawl Omnibus Company.
Pete Davies
13/07/12 – 17:12
Pete, That would be 368 when with Hanson, rebuilt in 1962 from 1949 Roe H31/25R bodied Regent III 285, ECX 414.
Eric Bawden
14/07/12 – 07:39
Unfortunately I don’t believe 361 suffered any catastrophic failure at all, but was just sold. It was kept here where I live in Greenfield, less than five minutes walk from where I now live, along with various other vehicles including my own. It just disappeared one day and I was annoyed about it at the time and even more so now, as it is a genuine Saddleworth bus which would have appeared frequently on the Oldham service which ran past Greenfield station. The shame is that, had it survived at Thorne’s, even out of use, a bit longer it might have joined their fleet of splendidly-restored vehicles.
David Beilby
14/07/12 – 11:23
I was always under the impression that a conrod came through the engine block and that is why it was scrapped. It did get repainted in an approximation of Hanson livery but the shade of red was far too dark, almost maroon. There are some photos about of it in these colours. The correct shade was a Dulux colour called Wexham Red. I did know the owner at one time but it is many, many years since I lost contact with him.
Eric Bawden
18/06/17 – 07:02
I bought 361 from Thornes and moved it initially to Sandtoft. It was then subsequently moved to Huddersfield goods yard where it was repainted into Wexham Red. The bus subsequently moved to a mill yard in Greenfield where it received the engine from Morecambe 57. 361 attended some rallies in the mid seventies and visited Shildon for the anniversary in 1975 (?). The bus was sold in serviceable condition when I got married in 1976.
The Bluebird six-wheel LT was an impressive and attractive variant of the LT class, but the Bluebird ST was rare. ST1037 was one of the first 8 of a total of just 23 Bluebird STs which London General built for their expanding green Country Services. Initially allocated to Windsor Garage by LGOC, under London Transport, it quickly moved to North London , serving at Tring until mid 1948, when it was transferred to Reigate for storage, then quickly re-allocated to Watford High Street Garage as a trainer. Never having had an overhaul, looking very careworn, with deformed lower panels and body sag extending from bottom to the underside of upstairs windows, she is shown at Epsom Downs on route 406F on the shuttle service from Epsom Station to Epsom Downs during one of the Epsom Racecourse events, most likely around Derby Day, when any bus capable of moving was dragged out of dusty corners over to Morden and other places to operate shuttle services., Post-war, this attraction was often the death knell for some of these loyal, decrepit, worn-out servants, the stigma of imminent doom appearing as a crudely-chalked cross on the nearside wing! In December 1949, the axe fell and she was sold to Daniels of Rainham for scrapping and an undeserved end after over 17 neglected years of service. Not bad for a vehicle with a design life of about 10 years!
A couple of asides: Note the Morris 8 maintenance van on the right Route 406F used the highest suffix letter ever by London Transport. Some history of this vehicle taken from the excellent Ian’s Bus Stop website.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
18/04/20 – 05:48
Route 406F still operates on major race days, using the same route number and must be the last survivor of the Bassom route numbering scheme.
David Todd
19/04/20 – 06:05
Thx for that, David. Amazing the way some things survive in the most obscure and unique ways. It would not be surprising if the suffixes A to E disappeared years ago!
Chris Hebbron
20/01/21 – 06:53
Your text is slightly incorrect, Chris. These buses were delivered in the red livery of London General Country Services. Apparently the green country bus livery was first introduced in May 1933 prior to LT becoming operational. I presume the green livery as introduced in May 1933 was all over mid green with black relief and plain General fleetnames, that being the initial LT Country Bus livery. Apple green relief around windows was added later and in 1935 a new version with less black and possibly a different shade of the darker green along with London Transport fleetnames became standard. You can find pictures with LT fleetnames on the earlier green livery as well, the fleetname having been introduced in 1934.
PS: Surely the text should read “Never having had a post-War overhaul”?
Andrew Colebourne
31/05/21 – 05:02
Thx for posting the early history of these vehicles, Andrew. As for overhauls, Ian’s Bus Stop makes no mention of pre-war overhauls, although there is mention of three of them having CHASSIS overhauls at Chiswick in 1948. It did nothing to prolong their lives, however, as all of the remaining ones went during 1949 anyway. It’s unlikely that they had postwar ones, for those LT and LTL’S which did have post-war body rebuilds, by outside contractors, lost their waistline cummerbunds, which this one still retains.
Copyright ‘unknown’ if you know please get in touch
Sheffield Corporation 1952 AEC Regal IV 9821S Roe B44F
Sheffield quickly tried out underfloor engined single deckers when they became available with three Leyland Olympics in 1951 and three of these Roe bodied AEC Regal IV in 1952. Notably, all were for the A fleet although I recall the Olympics in particular being regular performers on the C service 48 to Manchester despite their bus seats. The Regal IVs always seemed to be out of the limelight certainly later in life being used on workmens services to the east end of the City.Of particular note is that these three were owned initially by ACV Sales being purchased by Sheffield in 1954. This photograph shows the legal owner as the Secretary of ACV Sales at 49 Berkeley Square in London. The Sheffield coat of arms is displayed but without a fleet name. Notable is the City of Oxford like vee shape on the front panel which was retained throughout their lives except for 213 which later had an all cream front panel probably as a result of accident damage repairs. There is a substantial semaphore trafficator arm behind the entrance doors. It is hard to imagine what an impact these vehicles must have made being so different from the then standard half cab single decker and with ten more seats. The photo is taken outside the Roe factory in Leeds.
AEC? Roe? Perfection? …..and yet these beasts eluded me in my Sheffield childhood. I was a regular passenger on the back-loader Leylands, though. Fascinating about the early ACV ownership – presumably as demonstrators. I love the Regal IV, especially the RF, but these were a minority with synchromesh gearboxes. Contemporary SUT RegalIV/Windover coaches had a of majority pre-select gearboxes – but even these had a minority of synchros. As a “heavyweight” man, I never bought into the “over-engineered” tag given to the Regal IV (and Royal Tigers). The heavy Reliance and Leopard righted this wrong but we had to go through a period when I thought vehicles were under-engineered – especially when Tiger Cubs had 0.350 engines.
David Oldfield
17/03/11 – 06:58
I used to go to the Sheffield Depot of Independent TD Alexander (Greyhound) on a Saturday afternoon. There was a fitter there who worked for Sheffield Transport at Greenland Road Depot (apparently Sheffield knew of this arrangement) where the three Regal IV were based at that time. He told me one day that they had sent all three out as Peak District extras on the preceding Bank Holiday Monday – and all three had to be towed back with clutch faults! I seem to recall a fair bit of trouble with the hydraulic clutch operation on the PMT Reliances, probably 214 et all had the same equipment.
Ian Wild
17/03/11 – 18:22
Notwithstanding their frailties, the longevity of these three buses amounting to 16/17 years service was no mean feat in Sheffield terms and compares favourably with the Leyland Olympics of the time. Perhaps their mechanical shortcomings were outweighed by the fact that they were bodied by Roe who had impressed the Department with the quality of the nine PD2’s of late 1951 for the Fulwood – Malin Bridge via Hunters Bar tram replacement.
John Darwent
17/03/11 – 19:22
I can empathise with John’s comments about the Roe bodywork, but would the clutch problems possibly be connected to the gearbox problems experienced by AEC and, subsequently Sheffield, with the early synchros? I believe it was Classic Bus which carried an article about a catalogue of problems with the early AEC synchro boxes which Sheffield helped ACV to sort out. The OWE Roe/RegentIIIs, and possibly the 1953 RWBs, had crash boxes and all their synchromesh gearboxes were retrofitted. The pre-select had been designed for the 9.6 engine in the RT; the crash was a pre-war box for the 7.7 engine. Mixing manual box and bigger engine took longer to sort out than expected. Even the giants with a reputation for quality could get it wrong; but they survived by eventually sorting things out.
David Oldfield
19/03/11 – 07:49
The OWE batches of Regent III delivered with Roe bodies in 1952 had 9613A chassis numbers ie constant mesh gearboxes as built. The PSV Circle notes that synchromesh gearboxes were fitted to these buses in 1953. The 1953 batch of RWA registered buses had 9613S chassis numbers ie synchromesh gearboxes as built. The three Regal IV were withdrawn in 1968, ie 16 years service. The Olympics were withdrawn 1966/67/68 (2) ie 15,16,17 yrs of service. My recollection is that the Regals did relatively light duties (58 to Thorpe Hesley and 106 to Brookhouse Colliery – both Colliery/Works services – being typical). The Olympics were used latterly on the well loaded and hilly service 31 to Lower Walkley. probably due to CoF expiry dates Olympics 11 and 26 outlasted the rear entrance ‘crush loader’ Royal Tigers on this service. My notes at the beginning of 1968 show that at this time 26 was the oldest bus in the fleet and its last repaint was in December 1960 – ‘it looked rather shabby’. By comparison 11 (the ex Demonstrator) had been repainted in June 1966 and ‘had a full set of retrimmed seat cushions’.
Ian Wild
19/03/11 – 17:16
Thanks for clarification, Ian. I lived on the 31 until I was 5, when I moved to Greenhill. I do remember the Regal IVs being 58/Thorpe Hesley regulars.
David Oldfield
04/10/11 – 21:01
That AEC OWB 14 was a regular performer on route 40, Sheffield – Bakewell and was also used on the Bakewell school run via the Hope Valley, been on it many a time when I was at Lady Manners School 1953-56. I also recall another single decker RPA 221 which was a Surrey registration, but I can’t recall if it was a Leyland or AEC. Other AECs I remember on that route started with TWJ — reg at that time.
Chris Webb
05/10/11 – 06:38
Chris RPA 221 was an ex demonstrator Leyland Olympic, the registration a Surrey one, local to Weymann at Addlestone. The AECs you mention were the C fleet integral AEC/Park Royal Monocoaches
There were always a few places around London where red and green buses were seen together and this photo was taken at Uxbridge in 1974. Green RF 53 registration LYF 404 was a former Green Line vehicle, as shown by the twin headlights. Alongside is RF 379 registration MXX 21 whilst in the background is RF 406 registration MXX 294, which has survived into preservation. The RML hiding behind is probably about to start the long journey to Shepards Bush on the 207.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Tony Martin
17/10/13 – 006:57
Do we have a date(s) on these? I would guess 1953, but the twin headlamps didn’t come into vogue until later?
Joe
17/10/13 – 08:40
RF 53 wasn’t modernised into the form shown until 1967, so the picture must postdate that year.
Roger Cox
17/10/13 – 11:42
What would the emergency service be? Underground replacement, perhaps?
Geoff Kerr
18/10/13 – 17:10
My favourite, and the best, AEC single decker until the 6U3ZR Reliance. They accepted mid-life refurbishment and still exist in preservation 60 years on. [I know all of Rogers arguments about too many LTE buses in preservation, and LT practises – and I don’t necessarily disagree – but lets be happy that these gems survive even if we regret the passing of other types without the benefit of the preservation movement.]
David Oldfield
19/10/13 – 17:31
Tony’s caption says the photo was taken at Uxbridge, in 1974.
Pete Davies
19/10/13 – 17:32
The Uxbridge single deck routes lost their RF buses in favour of higher capacity double deckers in 1961-63, after the low bridge at West Drayton was modified. These routes got RFs back (in “one man operated” mode, which these seem to be) in January 1971. Far more on red RFs at www.red-rf.com The destination display “Railway Emergency Service” was used on LT blinds until the 1970s when it was changed to “Special Railway Service” – this tended to be used for both planned and emergency rail closures. I’m not sure we should read too much into it being shown here – it’s possible that someone had just not wound the blind far enough to show the full ‘Private’ display. The old Uxbridge garage was up the Denham Road, this bus may have been a substitute for a service bus, or being used for crew shuttle purposes.
Jon
31/12/13 – 07:20
I moved from London to Aylesbury Bucks in 1965 about 1972 my young son became a cub with our local group one day I was asked if I would like to come and see their ex London bus I said no thanks but after a few times I agreed being an ex London bus driver. When I saw it I said words to the effect where did you buy that rubbish his reply was it was only £320 I said did they pay you to take it away. It was ten different colours the windscreen was smashed there were no panels on either side the air doors wouldn’t work, no rails on the steps, the indicators were small bubbles front and back the switch was an old brown house light switch with a cloths peg to keep it central for off. I was hooked. I was a lorry driver so on Monday I went to our store at Hatfield then into the bus garage next door, just said the bus was for the scouts, they no longer had RF buses and the foreman told a fitter to give me every spare part that they had, he took an indicator switch of an RM gave me the ears then the chrome wheel nut covers and discs for the rear wheels then said that when I come next week they would have made up a brand new fog lamp for me this went on at every garage that I called at as far as Dunton Green, Thamesmede, Lewisham, Kingston, Hemel Hempstead gave me a gallon of Lincoln green paint and had a small tin of just enough duck egg blue for the window beading and so after two years of every evening and weekends the bus was put back as she should looked even with her old rear lights but for driving had a pair of light on the back from a DMs the problem with the doors was when I removed the head of the air compressor there was only one piston in it the other one was in bits in the sump, I found one in a scrapyard near Ongar when I got there the bus was just a chassis with the compressor hanging on one bolt I got it for a £1 so the vehicle was then complete they took it to Wales twice each time returning with body damage they then said that they could no longer afford to run it and asked me if I would sell it for them, I got a sale with a bus preservation group for £950 with all the spares and manuals, it later turned up with Dave English foreman at Luton bus garage and I was pleased to see that it is with several other RFs at Kentish Buses listed as original but not running it was RF197 MLL 584 I have photographs before and after which I will forward as soon as I sort them out. In the 1980s I gave all my railway books and hundreds of photographs and negatives of buses in London and all the RMs leaving Park Royal Vehicles.
Bix Curtis
31/12/13 – 12:05
Interesting story, Bix. It was definitely a “good deed” to run around for parts to get the bus back on the road for them and very satisfying that it went to a good home in the end. You should have a Scout badge for bus restoration!
Scottish Motor Traction 1952 AEC Regal IV 9821E Alexander C30F
SMT, who later became Eastern Scottish, were a regular sight in Newcastle, they shared several routes into Scotland with United, and this one is discharging its passengers at the drop off point in the Haymarket Bus Station. There were three different routes to Edinburgh, and two to Glasgow. Morning departures on the Edinburgh routes were United vehicles, with SMT covering the afternoons, and vice versa from the other end, and I think it was the same for the more direct route to Glasgow. However, one of the Glasgow routes was a very long drawn out affair, with a running time of over seven hours. If memory serves, the vehicles met a point which was roughly half way where a refreshment stop was taken, the crews would then swap vehicles and return to their start point, but the vehicles would carry on and return the following day. It was also the case that in the event of a breakdown, the other company would provide a replacement, so presumably an arrangement existed with the insurance which allowed the other companies crews to man the vehicles. They were in abundance in Scotland, but this type of Alexander body never caught on south of the border to the same extent as the later ‘Y’ types, although North Western did have a few. Personally, I thought they were not a million miles away from the Park Royal body of the period.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
20/03/14 – 07:12
Although they eventually developed their own style, Alexanders did set out building clones – often under subcontract – of other companies’ designs (notably Leyland and Weymann). They did a PRV/Monocoach copy but I don’t know whether these Regal IVs were on PRV frames. In the recent Y type book it was pointed out that this style of flat windscreen lasted (on AL deckers) until the ’80s. The North Western Leopards – and the Reliances which preceded them were not strictly to this design at all. They were a standard BET design structure with this style windscreen grafted on to the front.[There were, I believe, others too – as well as “bog standard” BET bodies without a whiff of Alexander about the style.]
David Oldfield
20/03/14 – 17:40
Pseudo Willowbrook, perhaps?
Pete Davies
20/03/14 – 17:41
On the point of driver change over on the “long” Glasgow route, I have a feeling that the same thing happened at Penrith on the Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh services. Something similar happened on the X2/X60 group of interconnected routes: (Great Yarmouth)/ Nottingham/ Manchester/ Blackpool).
David Oldfield
22/03/14 – 08:30
On the subject of driver changes en-route when I became an express services driver at Southdown’s Eastbourne depot in 1970, a journey from Margate to Bournemouth on the South Coast Express service that passed through Eastbourne around midday with an East Kent driver who took his meal break there. The coach either an East Kent Reliance/Park Royal or a Royal Blue Bristol RE/ECW was then taken to Brighton by one of our drivers who handed it over to a Royal Blue driver who had just taken his meal break who then took it on to Bournemouth. The Eastbourne driver then took over the coach brought in by the Royal Blue driver which he then took back to Eastbourne to hand over to the East Kent driver after his meal break to take back to Margate thus all three drivers drove a coach from both East Kent and Royal Blue. This experience led me to prefer the Reliance over the RE and nothing ever persuaded me otherwise especially when accessing the underfloor lockers of the RE on a wet day
Diesel Dave
25/03/14 – 10:14
This is Prudhoe Place just south of the Haymarket Bus Station in Newcastle. The building in the background was a cinema (and if we could so what film was being advertised we could probably date the photo). Just to the right of the camera was the famous Mobile Canteen MC2 (and was there ever an MC1?). Buses that were going to lay over usually dropped-off passengers here and then parked on the other side of the stand, rear-end inwards. This was also the pick-up point for Tynemouth 5 and United 8 during the afternoon peak period until all New Coast Road buses moved to St Mary’s Place in the late 1960s. The Edinburgh routes via Otterburn (9 later 508) and Wooler (15 later 510) were irregular. There was an Edinburgh SMT bus that left Edinburgh at about 09.00 for Newcastle via Otterburn and then returned via Wooler mid-afternoon. There was also an Edinburgh SMT bus that left Edinburgh at about 10.30 for Newcastle via Wooler and returned at 16.45 via Otterburn. Edinburgh crews worked both buses right through. There were only a couple of 5 minute stops en route. The Edinburgh route via Berwick (12 later 505/6) was hourly south of Berwick and more or less hourly north of Berwick. There were only a couple of 5 minute stops en route. As far as I know United buses worked through to Edinburgh but usually had SMT crews north of Berwick. SMT buses worked through to Newcastle but usually had United crews south of Berwick. However some of the scheduling was quite complex: buses might meet and swap crews at Niddrie Cross Roads, just outside Edinburgh, to get the crew back to Berwick before the end of service. The Glasgow route (14 later 515) was once a day in winter and twice a day in summer. It was very slow and had a 45 minute stop at Galashiels. The buses worked right through but met at Galashiels where the crews swapped over. The United crew was, latterly, from Whitley Bay. There were also summer Saturday express journeys, that took about 5 hours, on which the crews worked right through, and came back the same day. At Glasgow holiday period there were often lots of duplicates and crews from a variety of depots north and south of the border. Scotland definitely had its own culture, which included labels on bus windscreens, as shown in this photo. Why it was normal, north of the border, to use labels to show the route and destination I never could work out. Were there too many destinations and route variations at each depot to include on one blind?
Paul Robson
25/03/14 – 15:48
Paul Robson makes mention of paper stickers on the windscreen for the service/destination. Surely this is preferable to showing ‘SERVICE’ or ‘DUPLICATE’ as mentioned in another thread which is on the go at the minute. Good on yer Scottish Bus Group.
Stephen Howarth
27/03/14 – 06:53
At the old National Express/Shamrock and Rambler Coach Station (77 Holdenhurst Road) the toilets were situated at the rear of the booking hall. The passageway had a huge rack (like a postal sorting rack for letters) that held yellow paper destination labels for literally all the served destinations in the South of England together with such labels as “On Hire To”. I remember seeing one London label being held up (cheekily) by a hitchhiker on the Ringwood Sour Road.
David R
11/02/15 – 06:03
Newcastle services were run by SMT until 1964 under service nos 230, 231, (Berwick), 270 (Jedburgh) and 273 (Kelso) with other nos for services on these routes purely North of the Border. Glasgow – Newcastle/Whitley Bay was 252. Glasgow Scarborough was also a joint service on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays with a night service from Glasgow on a Friday, returning North on Saturday night.
Mr Anon
17/12/15 – 17:00
I really must most strongly disagree with Alexander “having started building clones.” they built their first coachwork in 1921 a number of years before Park Royal were even formed; and while they were happy to build to another coachbuilder’s outline when required (a rather awful Park Royal look for SBG from 1955-7 or a rather old-fashioned Weymann outline for Glasgow in 1953-5) they built to their own too, and the Eastern Regal IV is entirely a product of Drip Road Stirling. I’d contend the bus in the following link is somewhat more imaginative and indeed stylish than any mid-1930’s product of NW10. www.flickr.com/photos/ The use of of the word clone in relation to Leyland bodies implies they were building to a Leyland outline to win custom; in fact they built utilities and postwar double decks to Leyland outline because Leyland body production had been halted by the government because Leyland was needed to make tanks; Alexander were in fact operating with Leyland’s blessing and full co-operation. Leyland chose three bodybuilders for prototype Tiger Cubs, they were MCW, Saunders-Roe and Alexander, and when the coach version of the Tiger Cub was planned all of the Leyland prototypes including the one that lapped MIRA at 80mph were bodied by Alexander. The bus prototype worked for Starks of Dunbar and then Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway, still in service with the latter in 1975, not bad for a lightweight. Alexander designs are I would contend more often copied than Alexander copied other designs.
Stephen Allcroft
19/12/15 – 06:59
Two further corrections: Contrary to David Oldfield the angled windscreen was available on R type double-deckers as late as 1999; secondly I got the start date of Alexander’s coachbuilding (initially at Camelon) a year early in the previous post, still Alexander were building bus and coach bodies in 1922 and Hall, Lewis only started in North West London two years later. Park Royal Vehicles was formed after Hall, Lewis’s liquidation by their major creditor in 1930; eight years after Alexander started. Incidentally the Lewis family also owned Northern Counties Motor and Engineering Company Ltd. PRV didn’t do an Alexander A-type copy but there were quite a few from Roe, which were done using PRV frames, and it Alexander’s design of double curvature windscreen was used on a number of otherwise standard Park Royal and Roe products. Northern Counties of course copied the Panoramic J type for Yorkshire Traction.
Here is another of the Uxbridge allocated RF buses, seen in the summer sun of 1971, the year in which UX garage saw the welcome return of these stalwart performers, having lost them previously in 1962 in favour of RT double deckers. RF 334, MLL 971 stands at Heathrow Central on route 223, in the close company of RT 4182, LYF 241, on route 140. I know not the identity of the bohemian gentleman who seems to be reflecting upon the sanity of someone wishing to photograph a bus. Tillingbourne operated five ex London Country RF buses between 1971 and 1973, RFs 233, 254, 595, 680 and 699, and these I drove at weekends. Acceleration from rest in second gear was rather sedate, and the cab was a bit restricted (the RF was 7ft 6ins wide) but the vehicle felt like a true thoroughbred. The RT and RM families suffered the derating of their engines to 115 bhp, but I believe that the RF retained full engine power, which, in the case of the 9.6 litre horizontal A219, was 120 bhp.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
11/12/14 – 06:39
I was once told by the owner of a preserved RF that, according to the drawings in his possession, they are actually only 7ft 4ins wide.
British European Airways 1953 AEC Regal IV 9822E Park Royal RDP37C
NLP 645 is an AEC Regal IV 9822E with Park Royal bodywork, new to BEA in 1953. The bodywork is described in different sources as HDC or RDC. The 2012 PSVC listing has her as RDP37C, which is a bit different! We see her during one of the infuriatingly rare open days at the Science Museum Annex, Wroughton, on 12 July 1986.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
07/04/16 – 15:00
RDP37C is the correct code – these were essentially observation coaches, but with a continuous roof-line and poorer quality “DP” style seats and interior trim. The “HD” code applied to Crellin-Duplex “half-deckers” such as the prototype which can be found on the “Ugly Bus” part of this website.
Neville Mercer
08/04/16 – 06:18
BLOTW. Under more shows 3 photos in Everyone’s photos of NLP 645 being with BEA until 1966-67 1 of the 3 photos shows coach went to the London perfume and soap house Yardleys whom were then based in Basildon Essex. NPL 641 also went to them they are seen as a pair in first of the 3 photos. It is later seen in preservation.
Alan Coulson
08/04/16 – 06:19
Thanks, Neville. These pages have carried a fair amount of debate about what is or is not a DP
Pete Davies
08/04/16 – 15:40
Manchester’s Burlingham bodied airport vehicles were always classified as “RC” by the PSV Circle, even though the level of comfort and trim was almost identical to the “RDP” London machines. I don’t think that there was any hard and fast policy- the use of the DP prefix was left to the discretion of the individual editor in the PSV Circle chain. In the case of North Western, for example, somebody at the Circle decided that the Weymann and Willowbrook 30′ DPs (the “Black Tops”) were DPs despite their relatively bus-like seating and seat-pitch. The Alexander bodied 30′ Reliances of 1961 on the other hand were often described as “C41F”, even though they consisted of coach interiors in a bus shell. Later in their lives (when repainted half-and-half) they were sometimes described as DP41F even though nothing had changed except their livery. I’m always very careful when I use a “DP” prefix- it’s essentially meaningless unless you go on to specify the exact configuration.
Neville Mercer
23/04/16 – 06:35
The contract to run and maintain the BEA transfer coaches between central London and the surrounding airports was held by London Transport. When the Commer Commando 18 seater observation coach fleet became due for replacement, LT convinced BEA to adopt a variant of its standard RF Regal IV saloon, albeit with a Park Royal rather than a Metro-Cammell body. The new fleet began arriving from 1952, and was classified 4RF4 by LT. In their earlier years, they saw sporadic use, some being stored in the winter months, but as air travel became more and more popular, so the BEA fleet saw increasingly heavier service. They soldiered on reliably until 1966/7 when they were replaced by front entrance Routemasters with luggage trailers. MLL 747, one of the 1953 deliveries, was withdrawn in 1967 and passed to Continental Pioneer, in whose ownership it is seen here on the A23 at Southgate, Crawley during the May 1970 HCVC Brighton Run. In May 1972 it was sold to Scout Groups in Brighton and Hove, and its subsequent fate is unclear.
Roger Cox
11/04/17 – 07:23
MLL 747 was sold to the 20th Brighton Scout troop. The Scout troop took it to summer camp at the Olympic Games in Munich 1972, I was one of the scouts. The huge luggage space came into good use. It was used to take the Scout troop to other summer camps, I remember at least one in the West Country. The coach was later sold and the troop bought a Harrington bodied coach I think a Grenadier from Unique Coaches of Brighton. A couple of photos of it in Brighton https://flic.kr/p/9nk4AM – https://flic.kr/p/9oi6N7
Andy Gibbs
11/04/17 – 17:31
Although Roger mentions The vehicles running from Central London, the BEA ones, at least, ran from the West London Air Terminal in Kensington, to Heathrow. Here’s a link to an item about it: https://rbkclocalstudies. The item mentions that, coming in, you could go to Central London, via the Terminal and presumably, you could pick up the vehicles in Cnetral London, too, but where? Did the vehicles and terminal also deal with BOAC?
Chris Hebbron
07/01/19 – 07:18
Chris, as you may have found out, Ian’s Bus stop is pretty good at summarising the 4RF4 operations. The WLAT I think was only BEA – then BA per the K&C local studies link. BOAC used their own Leyland Atlanteans from the Victoria Air Terminal (now the National Audit Office) which I think were garaged in the Heathrow area.
Ian London
09/01/19 – 06:37
To add a little to your second paragraph, Ian, the Victoria Air Terminal could well be that which was used before the war, serving the same purpose for Croydon Airport.
Chris Hebbron
10/01/19 – 06:24
The present National Audit Office was originally the Imperial Airways London Terminal, opened in 1939 to serve Croydon Airport. The war then intervened, and, with the resumption of peace, Heathrow became the airport for London, and BOAC the major carrier beyond Europe.
Roger Cox
12/01/19 – 07:04
Thx for confirming my thoughts, Roger. It must have been almost the last flourish of Art Deco architecture and duly awarded the name of the Empire Air Terminal. My favourite is the Daily Express building in Manchester, renovated not many years ago and truly beautiful, not a word I use lightly!
Hampson of Oswestry 1951 AEC Regal IV Metro-Cammell B35F
“Yes, Jim, she is an RF, but not as we know them,” as ‘Startrek’s’ Mr Spock might say. This AEC Regal IV of the normal RF specification has a Metropolitan Cammell B35F body and is seen in the livery of a later owner, Hampson’s of Oswestry, at Dunsfold on 10 April 2011, another of the rare occasions when ‘Wisley’ wasn’t at Wisley, before moving to Brooklands.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
17/04/16 – 06:52
Pete, I wouldn’t regard this as being a “normal” RF. This was one of 25 “Private Hire” RFs, the major differences between this and the standard RF being a length of 27’6″ to the 30’0″ length of the Standard RF and glazing in the roof.
David Revis
18/04/16 – 06:08
I always thought these stubby creatures looked somewhat unbalanced, compared with their grown-up cousins!
Chris Hebbron
18/04/16 – 07:12
Here are two in service with London Transport LUC 208 RF8 and LUC 225 RF25.
Anon
18/04/16 – 17:59
OOPS! Sorry, folks, but I hadn’t realised that, apart from the roof glazing, the dimensions of these vehicles were any different. I had always thought they were of normal length but with more legroom for the sightseeing public. There is a view of an RFW somewhere in the queue, another factor in my description of ‘normal’ specification!
Pete Davies
18/04/16 – 17:59
At 27’6″ long and 7′ 6″ wide with only 35 seats and an unladen weight around eight tons (about the same as a 53-seat Leopard) these were not in high demand when withdrawn in the early 1960s, however two other firms who took to them Garelochhead Coach Service and Premier Travel, both of whom had narrow roads to serve. Both Mr Lainson and Mr Foy were also known to drive hard bargains.
Stephen Allcroft
18/04/16 – 17:59
LUC 213 survives in preservation with Wealdsman Preservation Group, Headcorn they are also listed as having LUC 212 & 216. Other survivors of the ‘Lucys’ as they were nicknamed are LUC 204, 210, & 219. 220 is also listed as a spares donor with Penfold of Meldreth, Cambs but may have been broken up by now since he sold LUC 204 to Dawes of Headcorn circa 2013. Premier Travel of Cambridge bought& operated 8 of the LUC’s from LT in 1964 they were LUC 202/3/4, 206/7/8/9 & 211.
John Wakefield
20/04/16 – 11:17
The Garelochhead ones (courtesy Andrew Shirley’s GCS Bromley Garage website) were LUC214,215 and 224 numbered 39-41.
Stephen Allcroft
23/04/16 – 06:33
These private hire RFs were ordered before the legal maximum length was increased in 1950 to 30 feet. When the new limit became effective, it was too late to change the dimensions of the first twenty-five machines then under construction, and these, together with the Park Royal prototype UMP 227, became the only short wheelbase 27ft 6ins long Regal IVs ever produced. LTE quickly amended the specification for the subsequent six hundred and seventy-five RF deliveries. The short RFs were all withdrawn by LT during 1963, whereas the thirty footers ran on reliably for upwards of ten more years. The registration letters ‘LUC’ were carried by many members of the RFW, RT and RTL classes as well as the short RFs, and the name ‘Lucy’ was never applied in London service.
Roger Cox
23/04/16 – 13:27
Roger, I am quite relieved by your confirmation that “Lucy” was never used by LT staff. As a member of LT’s Bus schedules office at 55 Broadway in the late 1960’s and early 70’s I was surrounded by any number of feral bus enthusiasts and I’m sure that if that expression had been used I would have heard of it.
David Revis
23/04/16 – 17:47
The reason for their withdrawal in 1963 was a dire shortage of drivers at that time and the consequent need to concentrate manpower/overtime on keeping normal services going, causing LTE to abandon private hire work.
Chris Hebbron
24/04/16 – 07:05
David, I was a schedules compiler at Reigate at about the same time. We can preen ourselves on our skills in producing efficient duty schedules within the very tight constraints of the T&GWU agreements then prevailing. As an expatriate Croydonian in East Anglia, I don’t know about the current situation in London, but the present day schedules of the provincial big groups, unfettered by such agreements, are kids’ play to compile, and often inefficient into the bargain.
Roger Cox
01/11/17 – 07:14
I have read that the last ten of these 27 foot 6 inch long vehicles were modified to Green Line standards receiving route board brackets and overhead luggage racks. Quite when this was done I don’t recall.
Mike Beard
02/11/17 – 06:36
This vehicle is now back on the road having been repainted in original livery and mechanicals serviced as part of the Quantock Heritage Fleet.
