London Transport 1936 AEC 664T Metro-Cammell H40/30R
This representative of London’s once extensive trolleybus system is a London Transport class C2 AEC 664T (chassis number 168) with a Metro-Cammell H40/30R body. The 664T chassis design was a close relative of the six wheeled LT class Renown that the LPTB also operated in large numbers. CUL 260, fleet no. 260, arrived new on 2 July 1936, reputedly costing the sum of £2,286.3s.8d., and operated for its entire life out of Stonebridge Park depot (previously a tram “shed”) until its withdrawal on 27 August 1959. It was originally selected for preservation by London Transport, but then rejected in favour of “All Leyland” K2 type 1253, EXV 253, H40/30R, of 1938. Consequently, on 18 July 1962 CUL 260 was sold for scrap to the George Cohen 600 Group, but two enthusiasts, Tony Belton and Fred Ivey, stepped in literally at the last minute as the trolley was being hitched to the Cohen’s tow wagon at Clapham. They bought it, and arranged for its safe transport to secure premises elsewhere. This picture shows it being towed away from Clapham on 1 August 1962 over the John Rennie London Bridge of 1831, now “recreated” in Arizona on a concrete substructure. www.flickr.com/photos/ Alfred Smith of Smith’s Coaches, Reading, kindly allowed the storage of 260 at his Basingstoke Road depot for several years, and Tony Belton acquired Smith’s Duple bodied Dennis Lancet III KJH 900 for use as a tow vehicle to take the trolleybus about. Sadly, it seems that this Lancet no longer survives. In the heading photograph trolleybus 260 is seen at Madeira Drive, Brighton on 1 May 1966, when it won the award for the best restoration of the past year. Today 260 is resident at The East Anglia Transport Museum, Carlton Colville, Lowestoft.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
19/12/19 – 05:43
If any of the so called Experts of the period are still alive, I wonder if they now regret telling Trolleybus operators to get rid of them?
Ronnie Hoye
20/12/19 – 06:33
I recall you and I (and others) covering this subject, Ronnie, in another post, in 2012 no less! Link is: //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=14275
Chris Hebbron
28/12/19 – 06:14
I remember the London trolleybus being towed to Brighton in respect of the 1966 HCVC (now HCVS) London to Brighton Run.I recall the following year, two preserved trolleybuses were towed to Brighton for the run namely a Brighton one & a then newly restored Derby Corporation utility (both four wheelers). Sadly I do not think since 1967 a trolleybus has taken part in the annual Brighton run, I would love to be proved wrong with my statement!
Andrew Spriggs
11/02/20 – 07:01
My friend’s Dad was in the City of London Police, and he was told that the reason trolleybuses had to go from London was if there was a nuclear attack, diesel buses could disperse people much further because they weren’t restricted to the overhead wires. I bid the last trolleybus a tearful goodbye at Isleworth depot when London’s final trolley routes were closed.
Steve Bacon
11/02/20 – 13:34
I have never been a Londoner, and therefore don’t have a good grasp of the route system (present and ever-changing, or historical) but even to me, Hammersmith via Acton & Cricklewood (in that order) sounds geographically strange. Shouldn’t it be Hammersmith via Cricklewood (first) and Acton (second)? I could understand it with separate destination and routing blinds, but this is all on one display. Or is this another bit of esoteric London Transport lore to confuse us provincial types?!
Stephen Ford
15/02/20 – 06:28
Trolleybus route 660 ran from North Finchley via Finchley, Golders Green, Childs Hill, Cricklewood, Willesden Green, Craven Park Junction, Harlesden, Acton Vale and Ravenscourt Park to Hammersmith (and back again!) My high mileage memory, though not yet an MOT failure, has been rewardingly refreshed by the following site:- www.angelfire.com/
Portsmouth Corporation 1934 AEC 663T Metro Cammell H32/28R
This impressive beast is Portsmouth Corporation 215 an AEC663T/Metro-Cammell H32/28R trolleybus from 1934. Originally delivered as 15, it was last of a group of trolleybuses of different makes of 2 and 3-axled chassis (AEC, Sunbeam, Leyland and Karrier), with different electrics and bodies (Metro Cammell and English Electric) to evaluate the most suitable for the future fleet. It was re-numbered 215 in 1938 and lent to Pontypridd UDC, along with some of its other non-standard stable mates, from 1942-46. Shown here in its maroon/white with grey roof livery, straight from the paint shop at Eastney Depot in 1949, it was scrapped in 1952. As for the evaluation, although the main fleet centred on 2-axled AEC/BUT chassis, most (100) were bodied with non-evaluated Craven bodies, with a sprinkling (9) of English Electric and, postwar, (15) Burlingham bodies! One non-standard (No.1) and one Burlingham example (No.313) survive, but, sadly, not one Craven example, the mainstay of the trolleybus fleet. The whole network was swept away, in 1963, by Leyland/MCW Atlanteans. The unexpected one-year delay in delivery of these, caused by a disastrous fire at Addlestone, resulted in a very sad-looking trolleybus fleet and a great maintenance effort to keep the vehicles in one piece and capable of moving!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
10/02/11 – 17:12
Portsmouth Corporation had a wonderful livery displayed to perfection by their paint shop work on 215 in 1949. I visited Portsmouth for a day in 1963 to ride on the remaining routes and still recall the wonderful livery of the AEC 661T/Craven and BUT9611T/Burlingham trolleybuses even at this time. I wonder what decision criteria were used by the Portsmouth managers in 1934 to choose a 2 axle fleet rather than 3 axle fleet of trolleybuses. The 3 axle trolleybus was able to accept the higher starting forces from the traction motor but perhaps this was not recognised at the time. The single worm drive differential on a 2 axle trolleybus was always subjected to much greater forces than that on a motor bus. I do believe that 3 axle trolleybus fleets had less trouble with drive failures than those with 2 axle fleets and these were compounded with the longer length 2 axle types which appeared in 1954. I do believe Sunbeam addressed this single axle drive problem by introducing a double reduction epicyclic differential axle. I do believe these appeared in Walsall, Glasgow, Belfast and Bradford. Can this be confirmed? I do know these axles made a growling noise but nothing as loud as a Bradford AEC661T “Regen”.
Richard Fieldhouse
10/02/11 – 17:13
Thanks Chris for this wonderful shot of the 663T. The early PCT experimental fleet was quite fascinating, as, although not unique by any means, early trolleybus operators tended to purchase “experimental” fleets, and PCT`s such fleet was quite extensive! The MCCW bodies were obviously metal framed, whereas I believe, that the English Electric ones were composite. This gave them another feature to work out and study, as well as the chassis and equipment suppliers, giving them more reliable data before placing further orders. The subsequent 9 English Electric 661Ts were metal (I believe), as were the Cravens, but I am wondering why the change to Cravens was made. Was it simply cost based, or did PCT have similar problems to other operators of EEC metal bodies. Perhaps they had picked up rumours, and were “scared off”. Who knows? A fascinating post, for which many thanks.
John Whitaker
04/03/11 – 07:22
Lovely shot of this Portsmouth trolleybus, as repainted post-war after it’s war-time loan to Pontypridd UDC with the other three six-wheelers. Three of the four returned to service after loan, but one did not (212, an AEC 663T/EEC). Incidentally all the 15 mixed test vehicles and the following 9 AEC 661Ts did not have manoeuvring batteries and were all stored from 1940 through the war on wasteland at Hilsea (apart from the six-wheelers sent to Pontypridd). They were all returned to service from 1945 onwards. I have always been fascinated by the very mixed bag of trolleybuses taken as the experimental batch of 15 by Portsmouth. It was not an even spread of orders. Four AEC 2-axles, all with the same body make. Three Leyland 2-axles, also with the same body make. Then variety is brought in – Two Karrier 2-axle, each with a different body; Four Sunbeams, but two are 2-axle and two are 3-axle, and each pair has different bodywork, and two AEC 3-axle, also with different bodies. It doesn’t seem to give a fair spread to assessing the necessary qualities. And the choice of chassis make fell to the supplier of the highest quantity! (AEC). It seems to have been common for municipals to try out an experimental batch of trolleybuses in the 1930s. But the rest had more “equal” fleets of trial vehicles. Take Belfast, which in 1938 took pairs of 3-axle Crossleys, Guys, Karriers, Leylands, AECs, Daimlers and Sunbeams. The bodywork contracts weren’t so evenly spread, but then Harkness might be expected to corner the market there. Reading made do with just six in 1936, of which two were Sunbeam (but one I think was an ex-demonstrator, so that may have been an influence), and then one each of AEC, Guy, Leyland and Ransomes. All were two-axle and Park Royal bodied the lot. In spite of two Sunbeams the next bulk order went to AEC. Bournemouth had just four trial trolleybuses in 1933, one Sunbeam 3-axle, one AEC three-axle, one AEC two-axle, and one Thonycroft single-decker – a very odd choice. But the point is that, compared to Portsmouth, there is a “one of each” approach going on. Both of the AECs were converted to a motorbus (petrol)in 1936, and the next bulk orders went to Sunbeam. Walsall had two AEC and two Guy three-axle vehicles for their tests in 1931, again a fair share to trial – they then chose Sunbeam for their main orders! It’s difficult to imagine what kind of committee sat down with manufacturer’s catalogues and selected the chosen makes for these trials in each city. But we can make sense of those that decided “one of each” or “two of each” – but the Portsmouth mix seems to defy any of that kind of logic! But it’s what keeps us interested as observers of these events of the past. Incidentally I have never read any other account than that the Corporation chose Cravens for the batch of 76 plus the 30 Leyland TD4s because of obtaining appropriate delivery dates. No mention has been made of EEC build quality.
Michael Hampton
04/03/11 – 17:19
Interesting comments, observations and comparisons, Michael, much appreciated. As it happens, logical or not, their choice of bodywork for the main fleet, Cravens, was as sound as the bodies turned out to be, lasting around 25 years, although some re-building was necessary. I never realised that the non-standard vehicles were parked on wasteland for the duration. I also never realised that the other vehicles, especially the second batch, the 9 AEC 661T’s, lacked off-line manoeuvring ability. I always felt rather sad about them, living a rather shady life and always giving off an air of neglect – I’m not sure whether all of them were ever repainted. Considering the far less use they got, this was surprising. I always thought them the nicest looking of all the trolleys, even in comparison with the later Burlingham-bodied examples. The Pontypridd escapade fascinates me. Can you imagine the towing of these large six-wheel vehicles over to Bristol, over the Aust Ferry, then up the valley to Pontypridd, an estimated 150 miles without motorway or Severn bridges. Or, if the Aust Ferry wasn’t man for the job, a journey via Gloucester would have entailed a 190 mile slog! I daresay these journeys were not without incident!
Chris Hebbron
04/03/11 – 18:13
Don’t forget that every one of the Cravens trolleybuses would have been towed down the even greater distance from Sheffield! Towing trolleybuses would have been an everyday occurrence in those days – think about Glasgow’s with Weymann bodies!
David Beilby
06/03/11 – 08:13
And, of course, the chassis would have had to be towed to the bodybuilders first!
Chris Hebbron
06/03/11 – 09:16
Wartime loans fascinate me too Chris! Bournemouth trolleys running in Newcastle, Southend in Bradford, Hull in Pontypridd. Quite a few examples and some interesting pre-motorway routes to plan!
John Whitaker
06/03/11 – 11:52
You raise in my mind an interesting point, John. If Pompey sent its four six–wheelers to Pontypridd and Hull also sent some, what was the reason? AS a UDC (Urban District Council), it’s hard to believe it had a large fleet of vehicles, especially trolleybuses, and enemy action seems unlikely to be a significant cause, was it an upsurge in coal production and colliers, mainly impressed (and probably unimpressed!) Bevin Boys?
Chris Hebbron
07/03/11 – 08:33
Re. wartime loans of trolleybuses. Good point Chris. I can only assume that the resort towns had surplus vehicles in wartime, whereas the industrial areas needed extra capacity. Where that leaves Portsmouth, itself a prime target for the Luftwaffe, I do not know. Southsea is, I suppose, a resort, but Portsmouth as a whole would have had quite a lot of industrial activity apart from the Naval dockyard (?)
John Whitaker
07/03/11 – 08:37
The bus fleet in Pontypridd exploded (if I can use that term) during the war. The fleet strength in 1966 was 53 yet during the war they received 21 utility double-deckers and 2 unfrozen double-deckers. There were also eight utility trolleybuses which became the postwar fleet but they were really used to replace the pre-war fleet which it must be remembered was mainly single-deck EE vehicles which later moved to Cardiff, as well as releasing the loaned vehicles. There had been 8 LT ST-types on loan as well. This reflects the boom in demand during the war years, with local collieries and factories working flat out and therefore a greater need for transport. It’s probable that not only were more people travelling but also they were travelling further – there was certainly a lot of long distance travelling to the various Royal Ordnance Factories. The trolleybus route served very little directly and the way the traffic on that route expanded was probably more complex. The southern end of the route at Treforest was a long way from Treforest Trading Estate which was a major source of employment at the time and therefore would not have been used to take people there. Maritime Colliery in the centre of Pontypridd would have generated some traffic but its location in the centre of town means workers could have come from anywhere. Albion Colliery was the only large colliery directly served by the route and was at the northern terminus at Cilfynydd.
David Beilby
07/03/11 – 09:27
John – Your post triggered something else in the back of my mind about Bournemouth trolleybuses on war loan. No fewer than 18 of them were lent to London Transport between December 1940 and September 1942, partly being relieved by some new ones destined for South Africa being diverted to London. Braking-wise, they were not up to the job of London’s demands. They had to go to Ilford Depot because of their exceptional height – 15′ 11″! Ilford had no routes which went under low bridges.
Chris Hebbron
08/03/11 – 06:05
John W – CPPTD lent some 3-4 TSM buses to London around the Blitz for six months and a couple more locally towards the end of the war. They lost several buses when Eastney Bus Depot was bombed (including the sole AEC Regent they ever owned!). They then took in 10 Bedford OWBs and 9 Daimler CWA6’s in the middle of the war, but I would say that they were well positioned with trolleybuses. They also had some Leyland Lynxes surplus from sea front duties, but I don’t know if they were ever used in anger! So the fleet just about remained the same or slightly larger. This doesn’t really answer the question about pressure in maintaining services, though.
Thx, David B, for a wonderfully detailed picture about Ponypridd’s situation in the war. It goes to show how a war can distort situations and produce hotspots which, in normal times, would never arise. I’ve seen photos of LT ST’s all over the place in wartime, but never any in Pontypridd, not even by that ubiquitous bus photographer, DWK Jones!
Bradford Corporation Transport 1935 AEC 661T English Electric H32/26R
We all have our personal favourites as far as buses are concerned, and I have to confess that mine are, (or were), trolleybuses. Amongst my earliest memories were the late war years in Bradford, where I so clearly recall the sight, and sound, of Bradford’s “Regen” trolleybuses. These were AEC 661T types based at my home depot of Duckworth Lane, and were unlike any trolleybuses anywhere else, as they made a NOISE. Their mournful wail could be heard for miles about, especially when braking, and this was due to the double reduction rear axle and full regenerative control. How Bradfordians distinguished them from the Air Raid “all clear” signal I shall never know! They were new in 2 batches, in 1934 (597-617 KY 8200-8220) and 1935 (618-632 AAK 420-434), and carried early examples of English Electric metal framed bodies, which recent research has discovered, were extremely troublesome right from the off. English Electric metal bodies at that time did not benefit from the expertise demonstrated in the products of Metro Cammel. Having said that, the situation was not helped by tight and hilly schedules, the aforesaid unusual double reduction rear axles, and the fully regenerative control, such that these bodies were virtually shaken to bits after a troublesome 10 year life on Bradford’s granite setts. Failures were occurring at an alarming rate by the war years, and BCT received permission to rebody 9 of them with Brush utility bodies in 1944, during which process, the regenerative control was reduced. The remainder were rebodied by Northern Coachbuilders in 2 styles, between 1946 and 1949, the last of the English Electric all metal bodies being consigned to scrap in 1947, and these trolleybuses, with their composite bodies, then settled down to a “second life” which was to last into the 1960s. They still made plenty of noise in their new guise and being a regular rider to school, each one developed its own character for me, and they became firm friends. Sad, I know!
I attach a poor quality Brownie Box photo of 606, one of the Brush rebodies, and always my favourites, taken on a quiet 1953 Sunday morning. This photograph is full of nostalgia for me, especially as it was one of the last to carry the older Tattam livery with cream bands and rear dome. Happy Days! If only I could ride on one again at Sandtoft!
Photographs and Copy contributed by John Whitaker
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
Not sad at all – some vehicles, just like people, have characters and the more eccentric ones get recalled the most! How amazing that permission was given to re-body vehicles while the war was on, something I’ve not previously heard of. I always had a soft spot for the London United Tramways (later LT) A1 and A2 class ‘Diddler’ trolleybuses, unique and also frail bodywise!
Chris Hebbron
Fear not John, as Chris H rightly says there’s nothing sad in being fortunate enough to be able to recognise the characteristics of vehicles. It is a fact that, even in large batches of brand new ones, individual machines very quickly display their own particular “natures.” As a teenager on frequent visits to relations in South London I was also totally fascinated by the “Diddlers” on outings to Hampton Court and the area.
Chris Youhill
Thanks Chris H and Chris Y for the reassuring remarks about my deceased friends!! Good to know that other enthusiasts are just as moved as myself when referring to man-made inanimate objects !!
Thanks for comments about London “Diddlers” from Chris Y and Chris H. I too was fascinated by them, but never saw them “in the flesh”. I hold my very fleeting memories of Bradfords EEC 6 wheelers, and single deckers in the same light, as I can only just remember them. It would be great to hear about other trolleybus interests from fellow enthusiasts, as my enthusiasm is for anything old in the psv line, including trams!
But I wont go there!
John Whitaker
Chris Hebbron raises an interesting point re. re-bodying of vehicles during WW2. The MOWT (Ministry of War Transport) controlled all allocations of chassis and body manufacture, and supply to customers. I doubt whether operators had much say in most cases; Body builders were allocated orders in batches, and hence Pickering, for example, built small numbers of utility bodies in 1942/3 on unfrozen, and early Guy Arabs, (including a minority on Mk2 chassis), they disappeared again until late 1945, when they were allocated a contract for relaxed single deck utility bodies on Albion chassis, for Scottish operators. East Lancs were used for re-bodying only, several fleets receiving all metal bodies on reconditioned chassis (mainly AEC) to almost peacetime standard. Brush were unusual, but not unique, in being used for new and reconditioned chassis, viz the Bradford trolleybuses and early AEC Regents for Birmingham. Bradford had 10 AEC Regents with all metal English Electric bodies which dated from 1935/6, and these were just as worn out as their trolleybus cousins by 1944, such that 7 were given new East Lancs bodies that year. I intend to look at the English Electric situation as far as metal framed bodies are concerned, as there were other disasters, notably with a batch of TD3/TD3c buses for Burnley Colne and Nelson JTC. I will submit a post on the subject if there is sufficient interest.
John Whitaker
I was delighted to see the Bradford AEC 661T “Regens” 620 and 606 posted on this web site by my best friend John. These were my favourite group of trolleybuses as they made a loud noise and had regenerative braking. Over the last few years I have been doing research into the early years of these trolleybuses 597 to 632 built 1934/35. My findings have been published in the Journal of the Bradford Trolleybus Association “Trackless” 200 to 205 inc. and 211. I can confirm the double reduction differential rear axle drive and the fierce regenerative braking were the main contributory factors leading to the failure of their EEC metal-framed bodies. The noise and vibration made it impossible for passengers to have a conversation inside these trolleybuses when running at speed, such as from Springhead Road to Bell Dean Road on the Thornton route. This leads me to ponder why Bradford specified a double reduction differential drive when a single worm drive differential was working quietly and efficiently on a very similar AEC 661T/EEC in London, namely LTPB 63 delivered some months earlier.
Richard Fieldhouse
This site has certainly brought back some memories. I served an apprenticeship with the English Electric Co. at the Thornbury works in Bradford in the late 50’s. The Trolleybus motors kept the Traction Department busy for many years. I recall working on the motors in both production and refurbishment and for it’s output it was very compact, good for it’s purpose, but a pain to work on. A common fault with motors returned for Overhaul was the “Square Commutator” Not really square but appearing so due to abnormal wear on opposite sides. Caused it turned out by slightly eccentric brake drums on some vehicles resulting in the motors always stopping and starting at the same point in it’s rotation.
Phil Johnson
Amazing the sort of problems which crop up – I should think it required some thinking about to identify THAT problem!
Chris Hebbron
I found Phils’ comments and experience at the English Electric Co at Thornbury most interesting and wonder which type of trolleybus traction motors were being overhauled and who were the regular customers. Can I assume Bradford City Transport was a regular as it was a loyal supporter of English Electric traction equipment?
Richard Fieldhouse
19/04/11 – 19:20
In the comments on the page for Bradford Corporation AEC661T trolleybuses, some correspondents mention the LUT “Diddler” trolleybuses. In 1962 the last trolleybuses were withdrawn in London and living in a road near the last trolleybus route to close I took my 18 month old son to see the last trolleybus from Hammersmith to the depot at Fulwell. In the event the modern bus was preceded by a “Diddler” from the London Transport Museum decorated with bunting, etc. as for its opening day. Alas, my son does not recall the sight. For those of you who are interested, if you log on to the “You Tube” website and type in the Search Box “Twickenham Trolleybuses” (without the quotes) there is a film of the first day of operation of the diddlers taken in 1932. It is in black and white and, originally, was silent but a sound track of 1930’s band music has been added. If you look carefully you will notice that they do not have headlights but it was shortly afterwards at the insistence of the police that a single headlight was put in the centre of the panel replacing the radiator on a IC engined bus.
This photo of Bradford “Regen” 607 was taken in 1944 outside Duckworth Lane depot and shows this trolleybus in dark blue with war time white paint and headlamp masks. The overhead wiring has flash guards fitted on the points as a blackout precaution. Also present are two Bradford motor buses in khaki livery which did not apply to any of the trolleybuses in the fleet. The bus on the left is a 1939 Daimler COG6/English Electric Company and the bus on the right is a 1936 Daimler COG6/Weymann. Behind 607 there is a parked 1935 “Regen” in the “new blue” livery introduced by Bradford in 1942. “New blue” was the description used by the Bradford engineering staff during the early years of this light blue and cream livery which remained the standard in Bradford up to April 1972 when WYPTE took over all the Corporation fleets in West Yorkshire. From my research I have found that 607 had a serious front accident in late December 1935 and was rebuilt with a full width cab and seating reduced to 58. The control contactors and shunt resistors were relocated from the chassis side to the cab. All the “Regens” except 632 were originally built with a half cab and 60 seats but all were rebuilt to full cabs as 607 in 1937/38 and the seating reduced to 58. Perversely due to the cramped half cabs, the main circuit breakers were located on the roof trolley gantry and operated by levers in the drivers’ cab connected by Boden cables with steel wires. Overtime these steel wires extended and often broke rendering the trolleybus inert and an operational disaster. It is surprising that Bradford did not fit cab located circuit breakers at the time when the full bulkheads were fitted. This work however did start in 1942 for some “Regens” but was not done to 607 where the large boxes are the circuit breakers which can be seen on the roof. 607 was withdrawn for re-bodying in June 1945 and returned to service with a Northern Coachbuilders Mark 1 56 seat body in September 1946.
The photo of 620 now with a 1949 Northern Coachbuilders Mark 2 56 seat body shows it accelerating noisily up Godwin Street in Bradford City Centre in October 1952. In the background is a Brush bodied “Regen” on the Allerton service to the City Centre terminus. 620 still wears the glorious Tattam livery with cream bands, black beading and yellow lining. It soon lost its cream bands, was moved from Duckworth Lane depot to Thornbury in 1954 and then could be seen elsewhere in the City, Sadly 620 was withdrawn from service prematurely in April 1958 due to a serious accident when it skidded and overturned on the Clayton route. Other “Regens” with NCB bodies lasted until November 1962 having given 28 years service, albeit with a troubled number of early years until re-bodied in the forties. Happy days, these unique “Regens” with their wailing and humming sound will always remain etched in my mind.
Photographs and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
01/02/11 – 18:41
What a treat to see the 2 “Regen” Bradford trolleybuses, and thanks to Richard for the technical data concerning the circuit breakers and full cab rebuilding. It all goes to emphasise the points I made about the severe problems with these early EEC metal bodies, mentioned in my own “Regen” post. In their rebodied form, I spent hours travelling in them, and, like Richard, will never forget their distinctive wailing sound. Also of interest is the rear of the EEC bodied COG6. My recent article on English Electric Bus Bodies mentions the 1937 re-design, and the well rounded rear dome of this bus illustrates this very well. There were very few takers for this design. I can only think of TD5s at Barrow, and lowbridge “Regens” at Southend. Anyone know of any more? The previous design had a very upright dome as can be seen on the “new blue” AAK “Regen” to the left of 607. My home was about a mile and a Half from Duckworth Lane depot, shown here, and I was about five when the photo was taken!
John Whitaker
01/02/11 – 18:47
Fascinating submission. This is not the first one which mentions noisy trolleybuses, yet I cannot ever recall hearing more than the odd whine and swish from them, and I must have visited and travelled on them in some 10 towns which operated them. Any reason for the noise?. I must confess that noise would have given individuality to an otherwise usually rather bland form of travel. Even so, I was always impressed by their 0-60 acceleration and indeed used to ride on the last trolleybus from Croydon to Mitcham which went flat out across the common (about 60) silently, bar the singing of the poles/wires and the vibration from a far from new class of trolleys. On reflection, I wonder if I saw the girlfriend, who gave me this routine, for longer than I might, simply for the trolleybus experience!!
Chris Hebbron
02/02/11 – 06:14
Chris, I think the noise was generated by the double reduction gears in the rear axle differential that were straight cut teeth. Similar to tram motor gearing so a similar noise. I am pleased you found these Regens pictures interesting.
Richard Fieldhouse
05/02/11 – 16:07
Glasgow must have had very quiet trolleybuses. My dad can remember them being almost silent to pedestrians and they became known as ‘the silent death’. I hadn’t ever heard this mentioned anywhere else but reading Ken Houstin’s excellent ‘The Corporation Bus’ (Grosvenor House, £9.99 from Waterstones) lastnight I came across mention of one Dionne Warwick vs Glasgow Corporation. It seems the singer left the Glasgow Odeon after a concert using the back door on to West Nile Street. This being shrouded in thick fog, she didn’t hear or see a trolleybus and was struck by it and an out-of-court settlement smoothed things over!
Scott Anderson
29/04/11 – 06:49
One of the class lasted until 1965 having become trainer no. 060 in 1962. This was the former 597 with an NCB (mk2) body. I photographed it in this role outside Thornbury depot in July 1963. On withdrawal in 1965 it had achieved almost 31 years of service. No. 603 was repainted in the 1911 style livery to celebrate Bradford’s Golden Jubilee in 1961. According to Stanley King no. 603 attained 1 million miles in service on 24 April 1962.
Malcolm Wells
26/03/12 – 07:53
I have just put together a gallery to commemorate 40 years since the end of Bradford trolleybuses. This incorporates over 500 photos including a section on the ‘Regens’ which I hope will shed some new light on the issues they experienced. Richard Fieldhouse has given me some useful information which has helped to interpret the photos, a lot of which relate to the structure of the body. There is also route-by-route coverage. The gallery can be found at: //davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/ Hope you enjoy it!
David Beilby
26/03/12 – 13:21
David, the Bradford additions to your gallery are absolutely superb. Many thanks for your efforts, and particularly the EEC views, which to us Bradford enthusiasts are unbelievable. We would never have believed that such a wonderful archive even existed, let alone become available. The Regens have always been my main transport “love”, as I grew up with them, and have previously said on a 606 posting, they were “personal friends” in the way that true transport enthusiasts will readily understand.
John Whitaker
27/03/12 – 07:17
Thx, David B, for putting Bradford’s trolleybuses on your website. Interestingly, the range 597-632 is virtually identical to (2)16-(2)24 (and especially (2)24 in Portsmouth Corporation’s fleet. Bradford re-bodied them around the end of the war, but Pompey’s carried their original bodies until they were scrapped, mainly in the 1957-8 period. What was news to me were the five AEC ‘Q’ trolleybuses, presumably all with English Electric bodies, although whoever built the ‘Q’ (trolley)bus bodies, usually seemed to make them all look very similar. Bradford’s ‘Q’, 633, had a relatively short life (1934-1942). To withdraw a vehicle in mid-war would seem to indicate a really serious deficiency somewhere. The clue might lie with Southend’s ‘Q’ trolleybus No. 123, originally on hire from AEC Ltd., from 1934. It was rebuilt by Sunny Dawes in 1943 and again by Beale in 1945, finally being withdrawn in 1949. Intriguingly, Peter Gould’s website shows this vehicle as being a lowbridge example.
Chris Hebbron
27/03/12 – 15:47
Chris. Bradfords Regens were the first EEC metal framed trolleybus bodies. Like their BCN Leyland TD3 cousins, the bodies were literally shaken to pieces after 10 years, due to body weakness, cobbled streets, and the double reduction drive. EEC had learnt a few lessons by the time PCT received theirs, and there was a redesign in 1937, as exemplified by 635 etc in the BCPT fleet. the Q (“Queenie”, No 633) was sold to South Shields in 1942, where she ran until c.1950. She was non standard in Bradford, regarded as draughty, and there were problems with the front overhang. A MOWT directive instructed BCPT to sell earlier 6 wheelers, and 633, South Shields and Newcastle being the recipients in 1942, and 1945. Bradford had, of course, received 10 Sunbeam MF2s in 1942 under MOWT directive, which enabled these transactions to proceed. I refer to the “Joburghs”, 693-702. We could write paragraphs on the “Regens”, so I will leave it there!
John Whitaker
28/03/12 – 08:31
Thanks, John, for filling in the gaps. We tend to forget cobbled streets and the effect they had on vehicles of the time, and probably to a lesser extent now as well. I sometimes wonder if East End of London cobbles were a prime reason for London Transport’s chassisless bodies coming into service. Although one or two small orders had their weaknesses, most survived the punishment well, although a large maintenance workforce would have helped.
Chris Hebbron
28/03/12 – 18:23
It has always amazed me Chris, that the LPTB chassisless trolleys performed as well as they did, and that the concept was not followed up apart from, I suppose, the RM input. Interesting point! Re. Bradford’s Q trolley, I think an identical, or near identical body was fitted to the Halifax Motorbus Q. Have a look on David’s site. Most Q motorbuses had MCW bodies as did Bradford’s. As you say, Southend’s EEC Q was lowbridge, as were the earlier 661Ts! What a fascinating fleet that was! re. Portsmouth, I am assuming that their EE bodied 5 bay AEC 661T trolleys were metal framed, as I always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they were. The earlier 6bay EEC bodies, and their 6 wheel equivalents were definitely composite, as the BCPT ones, delivered from November 1934, were definitely the first trolleys from EEC with metal framing.The Burnley C and N Titans were their first all metal motorbus bodies, and caused horrendous problems, as has been stated before. What a great hobby interest we share!!
John Whitaker
02/12/14 – 16:14
I always thought these Bradford Corporation AEC 661Ts 597 to 632 (built 1934/35) with double-reduction differential rear axle drives were unique. This belief was wrong as I have now found details in the recently published Portsmouth Trolleybus book by David R H Bowler that their AEC 661Ts 16 to 24 were also fitted with double-reduction drives and also made a loud noise when running. These Portsmouth trolleybuses with English Electric bodies were built in 1935 and followed the Bradford order and were similar in appearance. By 1936 I believe a worm drive with stronger bearings had emerged from AEC, no doubt due to London Transport influence, and future orders by Bradford and Portsmouth were for AEC 661Ts with worm drives which were much quieter in their operation.
Richard Fieldhouse
03/12/14 – 05:39
Nice to hear from you again, Richard. If you go to ‘More Pages’ on this website, then Old Bus Sounds, the first item is a Portsmouth trolleybus of the later type, but still with a noisy rear axle, albeit because it was worn, perhaps, near the end of its days! It’s certainly not a silent one! I confess that I never heard one of the 16-24 type, to my knowledge. They didn’t possess battery power movement and were usually relegated to peak time workings and were scrapped earlier than would otherwise have been the case. They also had a neglected air about them, with faded paintwork. Sad, because I always thought they had the most attractive bodies of all of Pompey’s trolleybus fleet.
Chris Hebbron
03/12/14 – 10:26
Many thanks Chris for your kind words and advice on the Bus Sound section for the sound of a Portsmouth AEC 661T/Craven trolleybus. I believe the General Manager Mr Ben Hall of Portsmouth was very wise to specify at a late stage Battery Traction availability for the large AEC 661T/Craven order. With the damage due to bombing during World War II, the trolleybuses in Portsmouth were still able to operate by using temporary turning points on battery power. Regarding trolleybus noise, this was also common in Bradford with some of their AEC 661Ts with worn worm drives adding to the “music”. It made every trolleybus seem to be a character. Interestingly the Karrier E4s (677 to 692; built 1938) used to make a more growling noise even when newly overhauled. Perhaps these were the bass section.
Portsmouth Corporation 1937 AEC 661T/English Electric Craven H26/26R
Portsmouth Corporation had 115 trolleybuses in its fleet. The first 15 (1934) were a motley collection of chassis/electrical equipment and bodies, four and six wheelers, bought for evaluation. The next nine (1935/36) were, to me, the most handsome of them all, were AEC/EE ones with English Electric bodies. Unable to move under their own power, they lived a shadowy life, latterly neglected and shabby. See here for a “smart” photo of one. The last 15 (301-315), BUT9611T, with Burlingham bodies, were the last delivered, in 1951, for a route extension. 294, from the third order, in the range (225-300), was the largest group delivered, in 1936/37. Amazingly, with not a Craven body appearing previously, these wore those bodies! They bore the brunt of the services and proved to be sound vehicles all round, although the ash bodies needed rebuilding during their 26/27 year lives. In this rare colour photograph, 294 (like the Leyland PD1A/Weymann bus I recently posted), is also crossing Guildhall Square on tennis racquet-shaped route 17/18 from Eastney to the Dockyard, 17 anti-clockwise and 18 clockwise. The destination would be changed at Dockyard and Eastney. This photo was taken on an early Summer”s evening in 1963, on the cusp of the system”s demise on 27th July 1963. 294 lasted to the end. Two trolleybuses have survived, but neither of them represents this range; a loss really, for I”m not aware of Craven using this body design for any other vehicles.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
Thank you Chris for another lovely Portsmouth photo of a very deserving type of trolleybus. The AEC 661T/Craven trolleybuses were the workhorses of the fleet and I have very fond memories of a visit to ride on them in 1963. I have always remembered the internal finish of the Portsmouth Cravens to be an excellent show of Civic pride. I do believe similar Craven bodies were built for Kingston -upon-Hull on Crossley TDD4 trolleybus chassis nos. 27 to 46 in 1938.
Richard Fieldhouse
08/01/12 – 16:22
The Cravens (full title Cravens Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd) bore similarities to the twenty Cravens bodied Crossleys delivered to Hull in 1938. the majority entered service on 2 September 1938, eight lasting until 3 February 1962. There was an option for a further 54 bodies which was not taken up.
When clicking on the link to one of the batch of nine English Electric bodied AECs of 1935, a picture of No 24 is displayed. A previous picture on that site shows No 21 of the same batch. The contributor there notes that the electrical support structure on the roof is enclosed on No 24, but is open framed on pictures of the others in the batch. I suspect that the reason for this is that No 24 was exhibited at the 1935 Commercial Motor Show, and was built thus for that purpose. Although presumably delivered to Portsmouth after the Show, it did not enter service until April 1936. It became the last of the batch to survive, being withdrawn in 1958. As far as the Cravens-bodied stalwarts are concerned, they were what a Portsmouth trolleybus was expected to look like – just as an RM or RT represents London! No 237 reportedly survived in a Portsmouth scrapyard near the erstwhile airport for several years – possibly even into this century? But I have not heard whether it still survives, and if so whether it is accessible. No 313, a Burlingham bodied BUT of 1951 (Portsmouth’s last to run in service on 27 July 1963) is in fine fettle at Carlton Colville, I believe. No 201 (Portsmouth’s first numerically) has had a more chequered preservation career, first at Beaulieu Motor Museum, then back to Portsmouth, and ended up at the Milestones Museum in Basingstoke. About two years ago, it looked rather sorry for itself, and at my last visit early last year, it was not on display. I would hope that it is out of display for some smartening up work at the very least.
Michael Hampton
11/01/12 – 10:33
Thx, Michael, for the interesting titbit about 24 being in the 1935 Comm. Motor Show. You mention one Cravens survivor hanging on in Pompey somewhere and I believe another one did for a few years as a public convenience in Bristol – I think I saw a photo of it once, painted white. I saw 313 only in October, but it was in the ‘garage’ and I was unable to see anything other than an impeccable rear: it wasn’t running that day. Were these distinctive Burlingham bodies replicated on other contemporary (trolley)buses? I can’t recall any others, off-hand. And you’re so right about the Craven’s ones. The comprehensive and intensive system Pompey had, meant that a trolleybus was barely ever out of sight and the 75 Cravens ones seemed to total more like 200, always popping up. Wherever you went, there they were! Fratton Bridge was a complex junction for the overhead and I used to happily spend 20 mins watching the poles picking their way across the wires and frogs. The last (evening) journeys were still by trolleybus, even when the system officially closed down, and that was my last ride on a Cravens. Happy days!
Chris Hebbron
11/01/12 – 13:19
I always thought that Cravens bodies were full of character, regardless of operator or application. Having waxed lyrical in many discussions about how I loved the Cravens RTs in London I’ve usually found that I couldn’t convince the opposition – sad really, because I think that they are missing something very attractive in the five bay construction within the RT classic outline – a magical combination in my view.
Chris Youhill
11/01/12 – 17:08
I have a prejudice in favour of Cravens because they were from my home town (Sheffield) and provided many STD buses from the mid thirties until 1950. [At this point they left bus building until they bought East Lancs in 1964 – and also formed Neepsend Coachworks.] The last Cravens (1950 Regent IIIs)were among my favourites – and I thought amongst the most attractive of the immediate post war designs. They were almost identical to the RTs – but minus the “Londonisms”.
David Oldfield
12/01/12 – 06:01
I always liked the Cravens’ RT’s, too. They were nicer to look at, in all respects, save for the hunched back and, if I recall correctly, the emergency windows and lower rear window did not match up, either. Nevertheless, they made a good stab at making a pseudo-RT body from a standard design shell. Surprisingly, there are only two postings of Cravens’ bodied vehicles on this website, which should be rectified! Perhaps David could post a photo of the 1950 AEC Regent III’s he mentions. It would make an interesting exercise to compare them with the Londonised RT’s.
Chris Hebbron
12/01/12 – 06:07
Copyright P R Doughty
The latest comment by David Oldfield on the Portsmouth Cravens trolleybus has reminded me of this slide, taken by a friend of mine when we visited Sheffield in December 1966. I guess this is the batch he is mentioning
Bob Gell
12/01/12 – 06:05
Re above posting from Chris H, Here is a picture of the rather unfortunate Portsmouth ‘bus that ended it’s days in a rather unusual service role. It was used as such for many years, maybe around fifteen or even more! It was in use during 1961 and as far as I am aware it disappeared about 1980 //farm8.staticflickr.com/ No 313 has survived in fine condition and can be seen in running order here. //www.youtube.com/
Richard Leaman
12/01/12 – 10:38
Bob’s slide is most pleasing, and shows well the very attractive upper saloon front bay and roof dome which I’ve always found to be a particularly classic outline. Richard’s comparison of the two latter careers of the Portsmouth trolleybus are heart warming, and the visitors to Carlton Colville are obviously flushed with enthusiasm at the relaunch.
Chris Youhill
12/01/12 – 10:39
Thx, Bob, for the Sheffield bus photo, from which I can see something of the “RT”. Did these bodies have the hunched back that the “RT”s” possessed? And thx, Richard, for reassuring me that my memory of the “Ladies” trolleybus wasn”t faulty! I think we can say that preservation of it was not an option by this stage! And it was nice to see 313 in action, too. I was surprised to read that this vehicle, after being saved, went for scrap and was rescued a second time.
Chris Hebbron
12/01/12 – 10:41
Thanks, Bob. This is indeed the batch. [Strange how vehicles which spent most of their lives with grey roofs looked bald when repainted without it. Apparently this grey was called “smudge” – an STD concoction from mixing paint.] Put a London cab and London opening windows in and they are more or less identical styles. This vehicle was departing the small Bridge Street Bus Station for the borders of Ecclesfield which, at the time, was actually in the West Riding. [It became part of Sheffield after the 1974 Government reorganisation.] Bearing in mind the common 13 year life of STD buses, 1966 was very late for a bus of 1949/50 vintage, but occasionally vehicles reached 16 – and exceptionally 20 – years service. Please note, in the distance, one of the Neepsend bodies I mentioned earlier. STD had about 40 on the atrocious PDR1/2 Atlantean between 1964 and 1966.
David Oldfield
13/01/12 – 07:21
Chris Y, Chris H, David – Thanks for your kind comments; pleased to help. David, thank you also for identifying the location, which I wasn’t sure of. A nice co incidence getting two Sheffield bodied vehicles on the same shot.
Bob Gell
24/01/12 – 05:59
Michael Hampton recalls that No. 237 languished in a Pompey scrapyard for many years. I”ve found a photo of it on David Bradley”s excellent website, having just arrived at Jordans Scrapyard and it can be found at the link below. Apparently, it survived until about 2000 and a Sheffield group of Craven”s enthusiasts looked into saving it, but it was too far gone. The majority finished up in a quarry on Portsdown Hill where a cutting was made some years ago to bring the A3(M) through to join the A/M27. David Bradley”s website //www.trolleybus.net/
Chris Hebbron
25/01/12 – 05:13
Here”s a three minute “collage” of Portsmouth trolleybuses, both Craven and Burlingham-bodied types, along with glimpses of Southdown and Corporation buses, especially some Bedford OWB”s. The first scene shows the brilliant acceleration, (driver showing off?) despite the sounds of old age, creating a tram-like whine. You can also hear the “twang” of the overhead wires at one point, something I”d forgotten about. See HERE: //www.youtube.com
Chris Hebbron
07/02/12 – 16:37
Thanks to Chris H for more info and the links to other sites re the one that ended up in a “convenient place” in Bristol, and the evocative clip of several swishing their way through Portsmouth streets. Many places still recognisable, but with subtle (and not some not so subtle) changes. In an earlier contribution (11th Jan), I mentioned that pioneer trolley 201 (AEC/EE) had been in a rather down-at-heel condition at the Milestones Museum in Basingstoke, and had disappeared from there at my last visit. A friend handed me a cutting from a recent local paper (The News, Jan 31, 2012) which has a few paragraphs reminiscing about the trolleybuses. Most importantly, it states that from June 2009, 201 has been in the care of the City of Portsmouth Preserved Transport Depot, at Portchester (nr Fareham, Hants). So it’s good to know that it’s disappearance from Basingstoke is not sinister, and that it’s still being looked after.
Michael Hampton
08/02/12 – 06:21
That’s good news, Michael. I would think that it’s in much the same state as the London ‘Diddler’ by now – delicate!
Chris Hebbron
28/04/12 – 07:57
As a Sheffielder I well remember the Cravens batch of AECs. I thought they had nice simple clean lines. Cravens later effort on the only Bedford ever in the Sheffield fleets, number 11 KWA 811D was an ugly beast by comparison. What a shame that no Sheffield Cravens Regents were ever preserved.
Les Dickinson
28/04/12 – 08:54
Oh how I agree with everything you say, Les.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
15/10/12 – 07:41
Recent pics of Trolleybus 201 can be found here www.cpptd.co.uk
London Passenger Transport Board 1937 AEC Regent O661 London Transport Chiswick H30/26
The STL – the letters stand, rather confusingly, for “Short T Long” – was introduced into London area service firstly by Thomas Tilling in October 1932 and then by the London General Omnibus Company in January 1933. The STL Regent then became the standard double decker for the new London Passenger Transport Board which came into being on 1 July 1933. The chassis was the latest version of the AEC Regent which took advantage of new regulations that allowed for the extension of the overall length from 25ft to 26ft on a wheelbase of 16ft 3ins, and an increase in the rear axle loading from 9½ to 10 tons. The LPTB STL class then reached a total of 2647 by the commencement of war in 1939, and a further 34 unfrozen chassis were added from the end of 1941. Twenty more buses complemented the STL class in 1946, but these were very different beasts from the LPTB specification, being standard post war AEC Regent II machines with provincial style Weymann bodywork. An example of which can be seen here The STL class underwent several specification changes over its production run and subsequently in service – engine changes (petrol/indirect injection diesel/direct injection diesel) and many bodywork swaps, some arising from the attrition of wartime. STL 2093, DLU 92, seen above during the HCVC Brighton rally of May 1971, was a 1937 chassis powered by the AEC A171 indirect injection 7.58 litre diesel driving through the AEC D132 four speed spring operated preselector gearbox. It was initially bodied by Park Royal, but, being damaged in an air raid, it was sent to Birmingham City Transport for repair in 1944. By 1949 the body was deemed past further use and it was scrapped in February of that year. STL 2093 then received the Chiswick built body from 1939 vintage STL 2570, the chassis of which was then selected to join the expensive and ultimately fruitless SRT conversion programme, under which newer STL chassis were “upgraded” to carry the heavier RT bodywork. Sadly, not only were the SRTs under powered but, more seriously, they couldn’t stop, and the whole wasteful exercise was abandoned ignominiously. This OBP entry contains comments on the SRT debacle. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ Meanwhile, now carrying its Chiswick body, STL 2093 soldiered on, even seeing a short spell during 1949 as a Green Line coach on route 703 at Swanley, until its withdrawal from passenger service in 1954 along with the rest of the pre-war/wartime STL class. It was then sold in 1955 to Reliance Services of Newbury who in turn passed it on to a private owner for preservation in May 1958. This was Dennis John Cowing, a chemistry master (and transport enthusiast) at Selhurst Grammar School in Croydon, a master contemporary with my own attendance in a less elevated capacity at that establishment. Mr Cowing rallied the bus for many years and he is driving it in the 1971 picture, but, by 1976, the structure of the vehicle had degenerated alarmingly and it passed into the ownership of Prince Marshall for full restoration. That has since proved to be a mammoth undertaking, currently in the hands of the former Cobham, now Brooklands Museum, where it has more recently been displayed as a bus victim of the blitz. www.londonbusmuseum.com/
I have gleaned information from various sources for this note, but, as ever, Ian’s Bus Stop has been invaluable.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
26/03/20 – 06:43
One of my favourite buses, in roof-box form, along with the Bluebird LT’s. A shot which brings out the best of its design and in a condition which suggests it’s only been on the road for a few weeks after delivery to LT. Only the parked Ford 105E gives the game away! Yours, Roger? My last glimpse of a working STL was in June 1955. When waiting at traffic lights, one passed across me. It must have been a garage hack on one of its last journeys.
Chris Hebbron
29/04/20 – 06:19
This bit of Pathe newsreel, taken in 1946, includes shots of many LT types including STLs. I was surprised that so many horse drawn vehicles were still extant and also by the number of private vehicles on the road in addition to London taxis in a time of petrol rationing. Some of the pedestrian behaviour is decidedly death dicing. www.youtube.com/watch?
Roger Cox
30/04/20 – 06:03
A wonderful piece of film there Roger with a fascinating array of buses but strangely, given the date of 1946, I spotted only one utility, GYE 51. Were utilities kept off central London routes to any extent?
Chris Barker
02/05/20 – 06:36
A real cornucopia of LTs (one open staircase, with half its windows still boarded up), STs, pre-war STDs, STLs all still with their white discs on the back, and, surprise, surprise, the lone surviving TF9, on a ‘SEEING LONDON TOUR’ and still in its pre-war livery.T wo ex-army lorries, one a 3 ton Bedford OY model, which I recall as being ubiquitous post-war. Very pleasurable to watch – thanks Roger.
Chris Hebbron
03/05/20 – 06:21
Well spotted, Chris B. As Chris H can confirm, GYE 51 was Brush highbridge H30/26R bodied Daimler CWA6 D62, allocated to Merton garage. Pretty certainly it is seen here on route 88, Acton Green – Clapham Common – Mitcham which did run through central London via Marble Arch and Parliament Square. That route is reputed to have given rise in Victorian times to the term, “The Man on the Clapham Omnibus”. The Daimlers were based at Merton and Sutton garages, apart from a brief period when a few were painted green and allocated to Romford for the reintroduced Green Line routes from Aldgate. The wartime London Bristol K types, the K5Gs were later converted with AEC engines to conform with the later K6A batch, were all allocated to Hanwell. The Guy Arabs operated mainly in eastern and northern sides of London, but Victoria garage had an allocation along with its Leyland TD7 unfrozen utilty bodied buses. The heavy 5LW powered Guys, with their ‘back to front’ crash gearboxes and rather ponderous clutches were not popular with London drivers, but the TD7s were truly detested at Victoria owing to their high gearing and the heavy engine flywheel designed to damp out rock from the flexible engine mountings. This resulted in a requirement to wait excessively for the revs to die for upward gear changes, and keeping time with the type was nigh impossible. In practice, those TD7 mountings were unreliably weak, and many other operators bolted them up solid. The whole exercise was a bit pointless anyway since the rigid mountings of the TD5 were entirely adequate for the smooth running 8.6 litre Leyland engine. Those TD7s were the first wartime buses to be sold off by London Transport, when they all went for scrap. The appearance of private hire TF9 in the film is remarkable as, by 1946, it was unique, its fellows having been destroyed in October 1940 by enemy action. The prototype TF1 did survive the war but was sold off early in 1946. The Green Line TF fleet was withdrawn and sold by 1953.
Roger Cox
03/05/20 – 06:22
Chris Barker – During my working time in London from 1951 to 1956, I worked in Shaftesbury Avenue and would often walk around the whole West End, especially Regent Street, Piccadilly Circus, Haymarket, Trafalgar Square and although I never saw any Utility G’s (Guys), there were their cousins, the utility D’s (Daimlers) who went up these roads. They worked the 88 route, which went from Clapham Common (Old Town) to Shepherds Bush. These D’s worked out of Merton Garage. Other routes they operated on were the 77/77A, all going through Westminster, terminating at Kings Cross, plus the 137 going through Knightsbridge and Oxford Circus. I seem to recall that most of the G’s were garaged in East London, but I never recall seeing any around Holborn or the City. Others will probably help on that score. The following link maybe of interest London Transport – Daimler CWA6 “GXV 785“ D 54
Chris Hebbron
04/05/20 – 05:49
One wonders why the unfrozen STD TD7s were ever allocated to Central London. They’d have been more suited to Country Area, or at least to less challenging Central Area routes.
Chris Hebbron
31/07/20 – 09:36
GYE 51 would pass to Belfast Corporation in December 1953 becoming No.467. It would be rebodied with a new Harkness metal framed body in 1955 and would serve until 1970.
Bill Headley
01/08/20 – 06:27
The earliest of the Highbridge Daimlers were delivered to LPTB in August 1944, the era of V1 and V2 bombings, but not one of them suffered from this German onslaught. Ironically, a few of these went to Belfast, and a couple of them were destroyed in the early days of the ‘Troubles’. Fortunately, this was from the mid-1960s, near the end of their service lives.
United Automobile Services 1964 Bristol SUL4A ECW B36F
The Bristol SU series had a limited following amongst THC Companies. This example is in Ripon Bus Station in July 1968 about to set out on the lengthy run to Masham. I would imagine the Albion 4cyl engine would be quite noisy although probably not as bad as the Gardner 4LK as fitted to the earlier SC series.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
24/11/14 – 06:44
The SU series had the same gearbox as the earlier SC model and thus parts of the sound were similar on both models. Yes, the Albion Engine was noisy! The interior of the bus version was unusual in having inward facing seats over all four wheels. The Western National coach versions had normal forward facing seats throughout. I remember riding on one or two of these buses on Ripon Market Day services, and I also once spent a day riding on Western National SU’s on various routes centred on Bridport. However I was most familiar with West Yorkshire’s SU models, working from Grassington outstation on service 72 between Grassington and Ilkley, which covered several miles of single-track roads around Appletreewick, and also passed through the narrow arch at Bolton Abbey. I was lucky enough to ride on an SU at this years Kingsbridge Running Day, which brought back happy memories.
Don McKeown
24/11/14 – 06:44
The geographical area covered by United was vast, and obviously not every type of vehicle would be based at every depot. If any of the depots which ran services into Newcastle had any, they must have been used for local services as I cant ever remember seeing any of this type in the City.
Ronnie Hoye
24/11/14 – 09:42
Don I was at Ilkley depot in 1960/1 and worked on the Grassington service (which was 75 in those days). It was a lovely route as you say, but roadwise dreadful with dry stone walls, no kerbs or verges, Bolton Abbey Arch, Barden bridge, and hordes of motorists and others towing large caravans – many such drivers seemingly with not the vaguest idea of the dimensions of their vehicles. The famous West Yorkshire Bristol L/ECW saloon SG 103, converted by the Company to forward entrance OPO, was the basic performer on the full length weekday journeys on the route for many years. Very happy days indeed !!
Chris Youhill
24/11/14 – 17:04
Chris, many years later I would be a regular driver on what was by this time the 76 running between Skipton and Grassington via Bolton Abbey, covering the one time Ribble route from Skipton to Bolton Abbey and part of the original West Yorkshire route. Sadly by this time Leyland Nationals were in use on the service, but the scenery and the roads and bridges were still the same. Happy days indeed!
Don McKeown
24/11/14 – 17:05
The Bristol SU was noisy. The afternoon school special to Eldwick from Bingley Secondary Modern & Technical School was operated by a bus from the Keighley-Bingley via Morton service. Invariably this would be a Bristol SUL – from KSMA 1-4 or SMP 17. My over-riding memory of them is that the ride was hard and the engine extremely noisy. Mind you, what I’d give to ride on one today!
Kevin Hey
25/11/14 – 07:12
Don, not to digress too far, but during my time at Ilkley service 76 was my all time favourite – five hours a round trip – Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate, Wetherby, Tadcaster – shared by Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate and Wetherby depots. There was, however, one phenomenal outing for Grassington crews who used the Skipton depot bus for one round trip with, I think, a 71 from Skipton to Grassington before and after – or maybe they rode passenger to and from Grassington – its a long time ago now !!
Picture here of dear old SG 103 – a rare treat for passengers to share first hand the glorious symphony of the Gardner 5LW, and no excess fare either !! Apologies for diverging from the United topic, but this is in a similar vein I feel.
Chris Youhill
25/11/14 – 07:13
Western/Southern National were by far the biggest users of the SU, taking 133 of the 181 built. By contrast, 323 examples of the SC4LK were produced, but none of these went to Southern/Western National. I drove the ex Western National SUL4A buses 318/347/355/417 EDV and the coach bodied 269 KTA when they were owned by Tillingbourne of Chilworth, near Guildford, between 1972 and 1975. As I (now somewhat shakily) recall, the gearbox was certainly a David Brown unit, but the gear selector positions were more logical than those of the SC4LK, examples of which I also drove for Tillingbourne. Some sources say that this was a synchromesh gearbox. It was not; it was constant mesh. The four cylinder Albion engine of 4.1 litres was effectively 2/3 of the Leyland six cylinder O375 engine as used in the Tiger Cub, and it was not noted for its reliability in the contemporary Nimbus. It developed 72 bhp at 2,200 rpm, rather more than the 57 bhp at 2,100 rpm of the 3.8 litres Gardner 4LK in the SC, and the SU was decidedly more lively in performance than its lightweight Bristol forebear. It also felt more solid than the Nimbus, and was quite pleasant to drive. A rather careworn 417 EDV is shown on the rural road between Colgate and Roffey Corner, near Horsham, very shortly before it was withdrawn in June 1975. The windscreen of the coach bodywork on 269 KTA had a distinct “vee” shape, and this gave severe reflection problems in the cab from the saloon lighting during hours of darkness. Sister vehicle 270 KTA has been preserved as shown in this link:- //upload.wikimedia.org/_Western_National_420_270KTA
Roger Cox
25/11/14 – 08:51
Ah, Roffey Corner, Roger; shades of Basil Williams’ Hants and Sussex empire!
Chris Hebbron
25/11/14 – 17:40
The service from Grassington to Ilkley is now run by Pride of the Dales using Optare Solos which fit through the Bolton Abbey arch comfortably. Grassington depot is now a postal sorting office and the car park boasts a small bus station. Some 30 years ago I was travelling between Appletreewick and Grassington when I met a WYRCC RESL on a school journey coming the other way we passed with inches to spare in a passing place, I never knew until then how many rivets ECW put in a bus! Even further back in the mists of time in the sixties I once caught the bus from Grassington to Kettlewell on this occasion the bus was packed as it was market day. The bus was a LS and carried a very vintage guard presumably from Grassington depot. Happy days.
Chris Hough
26/11/14 – 17:07
Many of the Western and Southern National SUs worked on Guernsey for a number of years following withdrawal on the mainland.
Chris Hough
26/11/14 – 18:00
As a known SU fan I’m glad so many are preserved including one in Colin Billington’s collection which is preserved in Guernsey Delta Tours livery. One of my pictures of this can be seen at https://www.flickr.com/photos/one although I prefer SUS and one of these is shown at https://www.flickr.com/photos/two
Ken Jones
27/11/14 – 15:05
The SU was designed to meet a requirement for small buses at the start of the 1960s by Western/Southern National to replace rebodied pre-war Bristol L types. Unfortunately, by that time all the other Tilling companies with such a requirement (Lincolnshire, Crosville and Eastern Counties, which had not generally rebodied their pre-war saloons) had re-equipped with the Bristol SC4LK in the mid 1950s. As a result, Western/Southern National took 133 out of the 181 SUs built, and the balance went in only small numbers (often 5 or 6) to other Tilling Group companies. Of these, West Yorkshire had the largest number, taking 18, but these were then scattered around the depots – for example the allocation on 1 January 1965, the first day that all 18 were in service, was Grassington (1); Harrogate (2); Ilkley (1); Keighley (2); Malton (2); Pateley Bridge (2); Skipton (1) and York (1 + 6 York-West Yorkshire). This guaranteed that the type was regarded as an “oddity” at every depot, and we all know what drivers think of oddities…. I know that at York, drivers admitted to using the (fairly inadequate) brakes more than necessary so that they were able to book it off after the morning peak, for the brakes to be adjusted. The Western/Southern National drivers HAD to accept them, by virtue of the quantity in the fleet, and so no doubt they learned how best to drive them, and how to get the best out of them. As one of the small, elite band of SU owners and drivers in 2014 I can confirm that on the level (and downhill!) they have a respectable turn of speed. On a suitable road or Motorway a steady 50-55 mph can be maintained all day long, making long distance rallying enjoyable. Hills are more of a problem; the small engine itself isn’t the whole story, though, as the David Brown gearbox has an unfortunately large gap between 3rd and 4th gear, which guarantees that once down to 3rd gear it remains in that, at 25 mph, until the top of the hill is reached! Like Ken I am an unashamed SU fan and wouldn’t change mine for anything else.
Trevor Leach
27/11/14 – 16:13
Ken says he prefers the shorter SUS model. The Bristol Omnibus Co. had nine of them – in three batches, and here is their former 301 (862 RAE), a SUS4A with ECW B30F body, one of three new in 1962. Withdrawn in 1971 it passed to North’s, the dealer, of Sherburn-in-Elmet in Yorkshire at whose premises it is pictured here in 1972. It then saw service with Primrose Valley Coaches of Filey and later Phillips of Shiptonthorpe with whom it lasted until around 1983. It then passed to a Barnsley breaker, but was reprieved and after a few more owners it was last reported as preserved by Mike Ellis of Stroud – 301’s original allocation when new.
John Stringer
28/11/14 – 06:36
Thanks for the SUS pictures [Trevor hope you and your wife are well]- I don’t know if 862 RAE has been out recently – I last saw it in 2012. There’s an article from a few years ago [with pictures] at www.focustransport.org.uk/
Ken Jones
15/07/21 – 06:45
I always loved United Autos buses, moving to Leeds in 1962 didn’t dampen my ardour, in fact it increased. On my visits to Middlesbrough from where I had moved, I was in awe of their vehicles and you can imagine my glee when I used often to travel on a United vehicle in the shape of the X99 service to get there from Leeds.
Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1969 Bristol VR/SL6G ECW H43/34F
We don’t yet have any pictures of the Bristol VR on OBP, so here is one of the early examples that earned something of a dubious reputation. Sitting in the 1976 spring sunshine at Ely depot is Eastern Counties VR 316, NGM 157G, a VR/SL6G with ECW H43/34F body. As its typically Scottish destination aperture indicates, this was one of the first production batch of VRs that went to the Scottish Bus Group, where their unreliability became the stuff of legend. SBG took a total of 109 VRs, 25 of which were of the 33ft long VRT/LL type:- Alexander (Midland), 15 VRT/SL6G; Central SMT, 20 VRT/SL6G; Eastern Scottish, 10 VRT/SL6G; Scottish Omnibuses, 25 VRT/LL6G; Western SMT, 39 VRT/SL6G. After this early VR experience, the SBG never bought any more Bristol double deckers. The full, sad story may be found at this site:- www.svbm.org.uk/lfs288f.html In 1971, Alexander (Midland) exchanged its fifteen VRTs for fifteen Eastern National FLF6Gs. Thus emboldened, SBG determined to get rid of the rest of its utterly unloved (and, it has to be said, uncared for) VRs in exchange for Gardner engined FLFs. Among the recipients designated by NBC was United Counties, who cannily sent a Lodekka north of the border, only to have it summarily rejected by virtue of its Bristol powerplant. UCOC thus escaped the fate of some fellow NBC operators, and had no Scottish VRs thrust upon it. Eastern Counties was not so lucky, and ultimately had a total of 33, some being of the particularly troublesome 82 seat VRT/LL6G 33ft long variety. The mechanical condition of all these machines on arrival was atrocious. NGM 157G, a VRT/SL6G, entered service with Central SMT in December 1969, but lasted there only until 1973, when it was despatched with six others of the same type to Eastern Counties. The other Central SMT VRs went to Alder Valley, Lincolnshire, Southern Vectis and United Auto. VR 316 survived to pass into the hands of Cambus in August 1984, when it gained the new number 503. It was ultimately scrapped, date unknown. Astonishingly, four of the former SBG VRs seem to have been preserved, two of them ex ECOC.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
16/10/14 – 04:34
By coincidence, yesterday I met an enthusiast who was formerly a member of United Automobile’s management. He told me about the arrival of the VRT’s transferred to United from Western SMT. They were collected from Carlisle, and found to be in appalling condition. However they were all overhauled before entering service, and afterwards led full, trouble-free lives with United. Alexander Midland’s fifteen VRT’s were all transferred to Eastern National as part of the exchange scheme, and many of these were eventually transferred to Crosville around 1981/2 following the MAP scheme, which required more double-deckers in rural North Wales. Most of these were allocated to Bangor Depot, but we had SMS 43H at Caernarfon Depot, where it was a great favourite of mine. At first the four speed gearbox seemed an oddity, but despite this the bus performed well and I often drove it on duties which it would not normally have operated; in particular I often took this VR on the “last Llandudno” in preference to the scheduled Olympian; I also often took it on the Porthmadog route and over the Llanberis Pass on the Snowdon Sherpa. I can’t help feeling that the Scottish Bus Group gave up too easily with these buses.
Don McKeown
16/10/14 – 14:33
Ironic. My CAPTCHA code for this response is 3DMS! Nevertheless, as one of Bristol’s biggest fans the VR was one of my least favourites. I know the LH probably was worse and I’m no lover of any of the 5 cylinder models but the VR suffered from the same disease as many buses which came before and after. It was rushed onto the market with insufficient R & D so it neither had the character of its predecessors nor the good manners and reliability of the RE. One could say, however that the Series IV got it right. Series IV? Well what was the Olympian? A successor which started out as a Bristol and a development of the VR. Not only that. It became a classic and one of the best deckers ever built.
David Oldfield
16/10/14 – 14:33
What a very interesting link, thanks for posting it.
Roger Broughton
17/10/14 – 05:20
This photo brings back happy memories of Cambridge Rd., ELY, where I grew up, and the depot where my uncle, Walter Long worked for E.C.O.C. as a conductor up until retirement, finishing up at Hills Rd., Cambridge depot. I also worked for them, first as a crew driver, then OMO at Cambridge. One Saturday, a rest day…two of us were sent to Norwich with two LKDs which would barely reach 35 mph in the pouring rain to bring back two Scottish VRs. It was terribly slow progress, but on our return journey, the sun came out, and I for one really enjoyed the drive back. The two VRs were the subject of great interest amongst the drivers, being slightly larger than the ones we already had with a higher seating capacity, and the triangular destination panel. I remember that their livery was yellow, but cannot recall where they were from exactly. It was a very nice piece of overtime, and we all thought that we had got the best of the bargain in the exchange that day.
Norman Long
17/10/14 – 05:21
That’s a fascinating article on the SVBM website. Could SBG have persevered with its VRTs and resolved the problems? or was SBG determined to revert to a sort of technological dark-age?? (witness the subsequent preponderance of high-floor/manual gearbox/non-power-assisted SDs … even on Central’s largely urban network). Is Ely depot still open? (presumably it would be Stagecoach now).
Philip Rushworth
19/10/14 – 05:49
Roger- this tale and the link are fascinating. The bus we thought was blameless wasn’t: Wulfrunian, Atlantean, VR: can anyone dish the dirt on the Fleetline or did Daimler get it so right when the Roadliner got it so wrong? Then of course Hilditch’s (was it?) Dominator of which we do not speak on this site? SBG did not seem to trust new technology, even if it worked and when it didn’t, well… it also seemed to distrust its drivers. There were of course engineers like this, even perhaps including Donald Stokes whose Triumph Herald could only be described as primitive- a sort of third world concept of basic, accessible engineering: the irony being that these VR’s ended up with Herald bonnet latches. The VR’s I knew had exhaust sounds that any boy-racer would be proud of…and every time one comes up I ask here about those hatches which could have been rear engine Cave Brown Caves but through which you sucked the top-deck fag ends: is that so? did they work? What an essay in political interference, swinging first one way, then the other- and the futility and waste of command economies applied through the grant. The locals think they are in charge, and take the rap for failure… but we pull the financial strings. NHS, Buses, Rail, Education… what else?
Joe
20/10/14 – 06:58
I was given a Triumph Herald 13/60 by my company on the pretext that the small printing machines we had to demonstrate could be easily slid in and out of the lip-less boot (not to mention the fact that the company was too mean to buy estate cars). When it had to be replaced we ended up with Vauxhall Viva Estates. I know which I preferred, and it wasn’t built in Luton or Ellesmere Port.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/10/14 – 06:59
The Ely garage closed quite many years ago. After closing as an operational garage the forecourt (where the VR in the photo is parked) was used as an outstation location for a while. I only live about 14 miles from Ely but when I do visit I don’t travel along the road where the garage was. I seem to recall the site was where the cluster of newish houses now is to the north of Samuels Way. I can’t recall if the Ely garage site ever got into Stagecoach ownership – it may have been sold under the pre-Stagecoach owned Cambus.
David Slater
20/10/14 – 17:07
Words like Devil and Deep Blue Sea or Frying Pan and Fire spring to mind over your car choice, Phil. At least a heavy printing machine might stop the rear wheels folding up too often, but if I recall the boot floor wasn’t flat? The Herald had more character than a soulless Viva, at least…
Joe
20/10/14 – 17:08
When the organisation, I worked for was privatised, company car were instituted for those who travelled a fair amount. It started with Talbot Horizons, with the Tagora for more senior staff. I managed to reject the Tagora because I discovered that they would not allow towing bars to be fitted – it lowered the value, they said, not realising that there was no second-hand value in them to start with! In point of fact, I had no caravan! The next, middle-manager cars were Montegos and I did the same again. Eventually late-model Ford Sierras came along and the excuse of a caravan enabled me to get a 2.0 litre GLX. I never fitted a towbar, though! The seats in it were the most comfortable I’ve ever known, enabling me to drive all day with never an ache! With cars like Talbots and Maestro/Mondeos, it’s no wonder we have no indigenous car industry nowadays!
Chris Hebbron
20/10/14 – 17:09
For those who may wish to check out the location, the garage was on the A10- Cambridge Rd., ELY, on the left as you head north, just before the right hand bend where the road becomes St Mary’s St.
Norman Long
21/10/14 – 06:14
Norman has given the location of the Ely depot as I remember it. Back in time, the A10 went right through Ely centre, along Cambridge Road, St Mary’s Street and then Lynn Road, and the bus depot faced directly on to it. I believe that the place did pass into Cambus ownership, but I don’t know when it was pulled down. Sadly, the typical Tilling garage of which Ely was an example, is a rarity nowadays. Turning to Chris’s point, I have to disagree. I’ve driven company cars of several origins, including Ford, Chrysler/Talbot and Vauxhall, and had a 2 litre Montego for my daily 100 mile round journey to/from work whilst at Kentish Bus. In performance, roadholding, reliability and interior space, it beat the Sierra and Cavalier of the Chief Engineer and Company Secretary respectively hands down. When I left, thanks to privatisation, I bought a Maestro. The BL knocking game was utterly childish, and yes, I once had an Allegro, a model that received stupid criticism from people who had never even sat in one. The quartic steering wheel that petrolheads waffle on about disappeared within the first year, and all could be replaced under warranty. The much derided styling foreshadowed the almost universal blobby shapes of present day saloon cars. Our first (1981) Metro lasted 19 years and still passed its MoT when I decided to replace it.
Roger Cox
21/10/14 – 15:05
Joe, the Herald 13/60 had a flat boot floor. The printing machines weighed 112lbs with more than half the weight on a less than a third of the machine platform so a flat, lip-less boot was essential. As for performance, the car was nippy, had a great turning circle and great visibility with narrow pillars. It also had height adjustable seats.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/10/14 – 07:14
Thanks for the information about Ely depot: as I get progressively less interested in current operations its the relics of times past that increasingly interest me. I used to aspire to owning a new Montego, being a quality (well in my opinion – and a step up from the Triumph Dolomite/Van den Plas 1750 I was then driving) British-built and British-owned car that I could afford. Now, I’m running Audi and Skoda as there isn’t any British owned and built car within a reasonable price bracket.
Philip Rushworth
21/04/15 – 06:18
This picture brings back memories, I used to spend a lot of time here as a bus mad school boy and remember the Eastern Counties staff there being very tolerant and patient towards a young enthusiast like myself. Behind the garage on a patch of land they used to park up withdrawn vehicles from Cambridge garage, I remember their last two Bristol RESL being there for ages and also a pair of ex Cambridge FLFs. I remember the ex SBG long VRLLs but by the time I was interested they were all allocated to Norwich depot, never realised how special they were, being more interested in the Bristol Lodekka LFS, FLF and LFL that were still running about at the time.
Brian Kay
28/07/17 – 16:37
We were unlucky to receive some of the SBG VR,s at Alder Valley in Reading, the union blacked them for a while because of their 4 speed gearboxes claiming they were too slow on the longer routes. When we started receiving mk 2 VR’s some non power assisted ones were fitted with Alder Valley’s own air assisted steering, these were terrible as the steering used to go solid at low speed which did not feel safe. The Mk.3 was a big improvement, nice steering and gearbox especially the very last batch we had with good heaters by your feet at last!
Here we have Crosville CSG623 seen outside the small depot in Llanwrst, Conwy, Wales in September 1967. This is one of 24 Bristol SC4LK with Eastern Coachworks DP33F body supplied to Crosville but by the time of this photo it had acquired bus livery and was ending its days as an omo vehicle on rural services. This model in coach form was supplied mainly to Crosville and Lincolnshire Road Car. Unless they had significantly better sound insulation than the bus version, they must have been pretty dreadful vehicles in which to travel any distance. The other vehicle parked in the depot doorway is another Bristol SC4LK registration 802 FFM fleet number CSG622.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
04/05/11 – 11:47
I used hate driving the type back in the 60’s and early 70’s at Pwllheli’s Crosville depot. Gutless wonders and noisy too boot. Having said that in crawler gear they would easily ,though very slowly, ascend the steepest of hills, reckon one would shin up a telegraph pole too. It was virtually impossible to run early with the type. They were handy when delivering parcels as there was ample stowage room alongside the port side of the 4 cylinder Gardner “power plant” in the cab for bulky items , apart from exhaust pipes from Groom’s Porthmadog. Fare collection was not all that easy either as passengers entered the vehicle behind the driver rather than alongside. Gear changing was fun as they were not selected in the normal H pattern. A case of all over the place and hit and miss operation in the 5 forward box. Now I would give my eye teeth, allbethem false, to have a day behind an SC4 wheel. Never satisfied and ready to grumble, always the driver’s way! Wonder if that’s really true in my case as I passed my PSV back in 1960 and am still engaged driving coaches on a part time basis. If the lottery comes up I’ll buy one. Well we can take that as a never then cant we!
Evan Herbert
07/05/11 – 06:12
Thanks for sharing the experience of driving the SC4LK Evan. My experience of the type is limited to a journey from Llanwrst to Betws y Coed (pretty flat) in genuine SC days and then a trip from Beaumaris to Bangor when Crosville Wales tried them as a bit of a novelty in the 1990s. The route turned right away from the estuary up a fearsome hill, the noise level and vibration in the saloon whilst climbing was excruciating! But the old SC just took it in its stride.
Ian Wild
03/06/11 – 07:27
I remember the service from Beaumris To Penrhyn Castle using SLC12/13 I travelled to the old MOLD depot to pick up one them and then I drove one all day every SATURDAY what fun. I’m Retired now but still watch the Modern Buses go by and I often wonder what these Young drivers that drive along the flat roads of the Fens where I now live would do with the old SLC on a good Welsh Hill
Ieuan Williams
03/06/11 – 17:07
Ieuan, you should meet a friend of mine who is still a driver for First Leeds – he has a wicked mischievous sense of humour !! A few years ago he was involved in the preservation of a Leeds City Transport AEC Regent 1 of 1934, and parked it briefly at a City Centre bus stop. A newly qualified young lady driver was among a few waiting to take buses over, and my mate said to her “Are you waiting for running number **** love ??” “Yes I am” she replied. “Oh good, this is yours then” said he, and walked away nonchalantly. They reckoned her face was a picture !!
Chris Youhill
08/06/11 – 09:55
Back in the mid 60s as a kid we had family at Llanbedrog who we’d stay with, I’d get out on the local Crosville routes. The R17 Sarn Bach-Abersoch-Pwllheli seemed always to be an SC bus, as were the short workings on the R26 from Pwllheli to Porthmadog. The SCs seemed to go everywhere. By about 1965 it seemed Pwllheli depot had gone fully OMO with some new MWs for the R26/R27, and now had just 1 seasonal Lodekka on shorts to Butlins. This was a shame as I was still to experience a ride on a Lodekka. My first ever sight of one, an LD at the tollgate at Boston Lodge had me in awe, it was an R26 heading to Blaenau Ffestiniog, fully blinded with Criccieth, Portmadoc (I think it was referred to at the time) and Maentwrog in the intermediate blind. I had a few trips on the MWs too, often back to Abersoch as an R19 or R20, with a consequent long walk back along the Warren Beach to Llanbedrog over the cliff. My last service ride on a Crosville SC was from Wrexham in about 1975, on a short working of the D1 to Acrefair. I don’t remember much about the noise, but when you put your cash in the tray for the driver it would jingle up and down with the engine vibration. I also remember the occasional crunching gear changes. In the early 70s the route network around Pwllheli seemed to get cut back and frequencies reduced. I seem to remember there were some of the early Perkins engined Bristol LHs (SLPs) in use there by then? I didn’t ride on them at the time as I had little interest in them, but now wish that I had done! It was great to read Evan’s first hand experiences of the type, especially so in the context of Pwllheli.
Keith Jackson
14/09/11 – 07:53
Evan you would like to drive an SC again, where abouts in the country do you live? In the following post to yours Ian discusses his memories of the SC and the trips from Penrhyn to Beaumaris Castles with SC 12 & 13. SC 13 has been off the road all of this year with engine problems but I have just managed to re-build the engine and it went back on the road last Friday when it journeyed to Lincoln to have it’s MOT. Hopefully it will be at Meadowhall this weekend.
Gordon Burkinshaw
16/09/11 – 09:31
Hi Gordon. Still live in former SC territory, Pistyll close to Nefyn on the Lleyn Peninsula. Been doing a bit of casual driving for Clynnog and Trefor Motor Co Ltd. Usually NX dupes and privates using B12M’s. Ugh didgie tachos.
Evan Herbert
18/09/11 – 06:14
Hi Evan, Nice to hear that you still live in a lovely part of the world. I will try and get SC13 over to Llandudno next year so perhaps you might manage to meet up if I do. Will keep you informed.
Gordon Burkinshaw
25/09/11 – 20:40
Glad to hear that SC13 is back on the road Gordon. My memories are of SSG677 and CSG637 at Holyhead around 1970-71. They were the only buses from the Holyhead depot that could be used on the N1 service to Amlwch because of the narrow lanes around Llanfairynghornwy. I’m now re-living my Bristol SC days as I have a Gardner 4LK in our narrow boat!
Tim
20/11/11 – 13:41
Not a bus enthusiast as such, but missed seeing the lovely green buses on a nostalgic return to Abersoch. The green livery fits well with the scenery. Websites like this help to relive happy memories of trips around the Lyn peninsula (we didn’t have a car back then). Thank you for the photos.
Mr Anon
26/04/12 – 12:13
It’s so good to read about the old buses but what about the drivers who drove them, is there any left out there from the North Wales depots i.e Caernarfon, Bangor and The Isle of Anglesey please let us know.
Ieuan Williams
28/04/12 – 08:02
Just found your site as I recall we used to have a couple of these in Oswestry when I was younger. I was really trying to find out what happened to a bus I use to travel on a great deal, Bristol RE fleet number SRG 208. As for the buses in the photo I think ours in Oswestry had very slow sliding door, but I may have that wrong as it is a good few years ago.
Kevin Young
27/08/12 – 11:17
Kevin, I have photos of former Oswestry RE SRG208 which may be of interest to you. They illustrate where she went after disposal by Crosville Wales and how she met her unfortunate end… www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/ 1 www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/ 2 I hope they are not too distressing for you!
Crisparmour
02/10/12 – 14:59
Why did the David Brown gearbox on the SC4LK have a strange gear pattern from third to fourth coupled with a large difference in gear ratios? I believe high revs were needed in third before engaging fourth. Was this box primarily designed for use in other applications?
Nigel Richards
18/04/13 – 07:15
The Bristol SUL4A’s operated by Southern Vectis had the same David Brown box with similarly queer gears, I never did quite get the hang of them, but the men who drove them regularly got used to it and could make those buses fly on the level!
Patrick Hall
14/08/13 – 06:22
I was the last manager at Llanrwst before it was made into an outstation of Llandudno at the end of summer 1969. Mind you I was only 19 at the time and a trainee as they did not want to appoint another permanent manager. These buses used to go on all the routes and had great fuel consumption in the hands of some drivers. Over 20 mpg I recall. There was one journey which was very busy during the summer and that was the 15:00hrs to Betws and Cwm Penmachno. There would sometimes be people hanging out of the door leaving Llanrwst. Some of them later made their way to Liverpool and the drivers used to refer to them having Welsh gearboxes.
Mike Lambden
15/08/13 – 07:00
Re Patrick Hall’s comment (Hi! Pat haven’t spoken for a while) Many years ago I was totally confused by one driver at Minehead, Western National, who referred to the climbing abilities of the ‘David Browns’ they had – and there are some real hills around here!! To me a David Brown was a tractor and it took me some while to fathom out that he was talking about the SU’s, being a clever clogs teenager it was beneath me to ask – oh how I wish I had asked more questions of the old drivers.
David Grimmett
15/08/13 – 11:56
On the subject of David Brown gearboxes, the six speed type used on lorries caught out many a driver until they got used to them. It was a normal left to right ‘H’ layout 1/4, but 5/6 were the other way round, so you went round the gate from 4 to 5, then forward for 6 1 3 6 -I-N-I R 2 4 5
Ronnie Hoye
24/04/14 – 09:31
I’ve got many fond memories of Crosville from the early 70s as a teenager spending a weeks camping trip at school near Beddgelert, I distinctly remember after all these years seeing srg1/3 and 5 in the area plus the then new Bristol LH’s, I also sneaked off to Caernarfon to visit the depot but can’t remember what was allocated there as my records have been long lost, also remember seeing a few FLF’s at Rhyl and a few RE’s/MWs? On the road bus spotting at London Victoria I always kept a sharp eye out for any CRL’s, I always thought they looked superb in the Crosville cream/green livery. As a midlander brought up on Midland Red I have to say Crosville was right up there and visiting nth Wales now has a little something missing, still got the great memories tho!
Wally
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
24/11/14 – 06:37
I’ve only just caught up with this posting from three years ago. Ieuan Williams asks if there are any old drivers from Crosville in North Wales still out here. I was a driver at Caernarfon Depot from 1977 to 1986 and remember Ieuan very well. I would love to get in touch with him through this site!
Booth and Fisher operated a selection of stage and works services from their depot at Halfway on the South Eastern outskirts of Sheffield.
Whilst their staple stock for many years were Bedford OBs, they also bought AEC and Leyland single deckers new and amassed quite a collection of Albion Nimbus as well. Relatively unusual second hand purchases were two of these Bristol SC4LK from Eastern National in the late 60s. This one was Eastern National 446, the other ex 451 had the splendid registration 9575F. I suppose a common theme of Bedford OB/Albion Nimbus/Bristol SC was “lightweight” but then they did operate in the flatter areas across towards Worksop. 612 JPU is seen outside their depot in either 1967 or 1968 in company with other members of the fleet.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
08/06/11 – 09:57
Very nice indeed to see a smart but totally unpretentious livery and a very clean and tidy looking depot. I never came into contact with Booth and Fisher, but they appear to have been an operator with the right priorities – too many are just the opposite, employing “spin” with nothing behind it – especially nowadays.
Chris Youhill
09/06/11 – 08:35
Strictly speaking, Booth and Fisher were a Derbyshire operator. Their depot is round the corner from the Halfway Supertram terminus and came inside the Sheffield boundary when the city expanded in 1967. The photograph must have been taken very shortly after this event. The trunk B & F route (Sheffield to Halfway via Coal Aston and Eckington) became SYPTE 253, briefly operated by “Aston” after deregulation. They were, in turn bought out by Stagecoach (then East Midland at Chesterfield) who run this route to this day as part of their new, expanded, Sheffield network. Stagecoach. of course, now operate out of the former Yorkshire Terrier depot in Holbrook – just up the road from the B & F depot. The B & F depot passed to SYPTE when they bought out Booth and Fisher and only recently TM Travel (now part of the same group as Trent Barton) moved into this depot – by now abandoned by First Group – from their nearby Stavely HQ. In latter years, B & F built up a large fleet of AEC service buses (and DPs) and Ford coaches. The last to be bought were a sizeable number of 6MU4R Reliances with Grant specification Panorama Elite III Express bodies – all of which passed to SYPTE. The featured SC4LK would have fitted in with the fleet at the time, though. It was sometimes known as the Bristol SB – fulfilling that role for Tilling Fleets – and even had propriety Bedford axles and other components. SCs were built in such small numbers that minimal expense was the order of the day for R&D.
David Oldfield
09/06/11 – 08:36
If I remember rightly they also had an ex Guy single deck demonstrator with the reg no GUY 2
Roger Broughton
09/06/11 – 08:36
Two of Booth and Fishers more unusual AECs were a pair of Park Royal bodied Monocoaches bought in 1955 These were fitted with a lower profile body than was the norm to pass under the many low bridges in the area One of the pair WRA12 is preserved at the South Yorkshire Transport Museum in Rotherham
Chris Hough
09/06/11 – 08:38
Like you Chris, I never came into contact with this well known operator, but vividly remember the name from the fleet news in Buses Illustrated as a teenager – Booth & Fisher, Halfway – as it always raised a smile. As you say, the livery is indeed smart and unpretentious, and all the better for it in the eyes of many. I’ve never quite understood the trend to dress modern buses up as circus wagons in order to attract motorists out of their vehicles. Most cars are single, or two-tone in colour, as manufacturers wish to convey a ‘perceived quality’ image. How many people would be attracted to a family car with a fancy colour scheme and vinyls covering the windows so only the driver could see out? Amazing how such established concerns such as East Yorkshire and Delaine’s (to name two) manage to retain a dignified traditional livery in a modern style. Ah! Quality!
Brendan Smith
09/06/11 – 08:40
Well Chris Y, Booth and Fisher are long gone but their depot survives and is operational! Their fleet strength was around forty vehicles and when they sold out to South Yorkshire PTE, the garage was used by SYPTE for some time before being deemed surplus to requirements. Today, it houses the fleet of TM Travel, a Wellglade (Trent Barton) subsidiary who have operations in Sheffield and North Derbyshire with around 100 vehicles.
Chris Barker
10/06/11 – 09:49
Roger mentions the ex GUY demonstrator Guy 3 This bus was exhibited at the 1950 Commercial Motor Show In 1957 it was acquired by Ledgards as part of the takeover of Kitchen of Pudsey It ran for Ledgards until they were taken over by West Yorkshire RCC in 1967
Chris Hough
10/06/11 – 09:55
In 1973 B&F bought some 12 year old Reliance service buses from Maidstone and District, and these passed to the PTE in 1976 when they were already 15 years old. You might think that SYPTE would have sent them off to Barnsley for scrap, but they kept them until 1980 when they were resold (as part of a job lot which included a Seddon Pennine IV-236 “midibus”) to Silver Star of Upper Llandwrog (Gwynnedd). Repainted into Silver Star’s attractive two-tone blue and cream livery they gave good service for a few more years on the company’s stage services from Caernarfon to Rhosgadfan and Cesarea, suggesting that they had been excellently maintained by both M&D and B&F/SYPTE. Booth & Fisher were indeed a classic independent!
Neville Mercer
13/06/11 – 07:55
I have a record of three ex Maidstone Reliances with Booth and Fisher (but there may have been more). 336 NKT acquired 7/73 334 NKT acquired 8/73 340 NKT acquired 6/74 all with Weymann DP40F bodies. I can’t be certain now about the accuracy of the acquisition dates, they may be the dates on which I first saw them.
Ian Wild
13/06/11 – 10:48
Check out this link for a comprehensive fleet list of Booth and Fisher. You missed 332 NKT, Ian, see fleet list. Bought 1975 with the last three 6MU4R, the last ever purchases before selling out to SYPTE. It had slipped past me that the last two were Duple bodied.
David Oldfield
12/01/12 – 09:05
I am looking for people who used to work for Booth & Fisher and knew my husband Ian Fretwell. I am going to give him a surprise party next year for his 65th. So I am trying to find as many of his old mates as I can, if anyone knew him please get in touch with me through this website. Or if anyone has a better idea on how to find ex Booth & Fisher employees please let me know.
Wendy Fretwell
28/04/12 – 07:48
Between 1958 & 1965 I attended Westfield Comp. As I lived in Frecheville I had a school bus. Normally Frecheville, Birley and Base Green pupils were transported by Sharpes of Beighton. Over the years they had SBs augmented later by SC4LKs and LWL6Bs ex Lincs Road Car. When the coaches were off doing coach work then one or more buses would be borrowed from Booth & Fisher. These were always from the large selection of OBs and OWBs. I doubt any-one had a more varied OB fleet than Boothies. Bodies included Allsop, Mulliner, Beadle, Barnaby, Roe, Woodhall-Nicholson and Duple. We never knew what would turn up, but could be sure of the bus having character!!
Les Dickinson
18/05/18 – 06:50
Does anyone know how large the fleet was around 1970, they had an impressive garage which could hold most if not all of the fleet under cover.
Jim
23/05/18 – 06:41
Jim, from 1970 the fleet tended to hover around 40. According to “South Yorkshire’s Transport” (Scott Hellewell, Venture, 1996) in 1973 44% revenue came from contracts (mainly NCB), 42% from stage carriage (Dronfield local [jt SCT/CCT]], Killamarsh-Dronfield-Sheffield, Beighton-Killamarsh-Worksop), 12% private hire/E&T, 2% garage business. The premises are still in use to today as the depot of Wellglade subsidiary TM Travel.
Philip Rushworth
17/07/18 – 06:39
Can anyone answer this question that has baffled me for years. As you drive past Clowne ponds you reach the crossroads of the Worksop to Chesterfield road, driving straight over for about 1/2 mile use to be a lane on the left that led to either 1 or 2 possible railway houses, in the yard was parked about 6 buses red I think, this was in the 70s and 80s,who was this firm, Kirkby Andrews were based in Harthill at that time but this wasn’t actually in the village, anyone know.
Jim
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16/06/20 – 07:07
I was born and brought up in Halfway, my father was a mechanic at Booth and Fisher. Shortly before the two AEC Monocoaches appeared they had a white Sentinel demonstrator on the Sheffield service for a while. It was the first “flat fronted” bus seen around here. Mid entrance if I remember correctly.
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