Category: Photos

Keighley – West Yorkshire – Bristol K5G – CWX 671 – KDG 26

Keighley - West Yorkshire - Bristol K5G - CWX 671 - KDG 26

Keighley – West Yorkshire
1938
Bristol K5G
Roe L27/28R

Keighley – West Yorkshire was established as a branch of West Yorkshire Road Car in 1930, if we believe the entry on Wikipedia. CWX 671 was new to KWY in 1938 and is a Bristol K5G, but the bodywork is not what one might expect, being by Roe rather than by ECW, and is to L27/28R layout being rebodied in 1950, it originally did have an ECW L27/26R body. We see her in North Albert Street, on the corner of Kent Street, Fleetwood, arriving to take her place for Tram Sunday on 20 July 2003.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

28/08/15 – 06:56

It was actually 1932 when Keighley Corporation “gave way” into Keighley West Yorkshire Services Ltd. Also, after the April 1954 renumbering, these DGs never had the fleet number on the front dash as shown here. Before the April 1954 renumbering, they DID carry fleet numbers here.
These Roe bodies were of exceptional quality and were ordered because ECW were unable to carry out the total rebody requirement for the K class pre war buses. It was part of a wider “ex Tilling Group” exercise with United Automobile also being involved.
Wonderful old Bristol buses, and firm favourites of mine as we were blessed with a good allocation at Bradford depot!
Thanks Pete for a super memory jogger!

John Whitaker

29/08/15 – 06:53

Thanks, John. I wasn’t aware of her original body details, and I suspect that Peter added this bit from his sources.

Pete Davies

29/08/15 – 06:54

Exceptionally good-looking body, the more so because it’s a low-bridged one, yet don’t obviously look it.
The blind display itself is very informative, if not presented well in the photo!
Thank goodness the re-build also included the lower PV radiator, otherwise the overall effect would have been greatly diminished!.

Chris Hebbron

01/09/15 – 07:18

As John points out, ECW at the time were at full stretch, with full order books and a backlog developing, hence the rebodying of sixteen of West Yorkshire’s Bristol K5G ‘rehab’ chassis by Roe in 1950. The vehicles concerned were Keighley-West Yorkshire K362/366 (BWY994/998) dating from 1937, and K381-384 (CWX669-672) from 1938. Main fleet vehicles so treated were 385-394 (CWX673-682) from 1939. In the 1954 renumbering K362/366 became KDG16/20, K381-384 became KDG24-27, and 385-394 became DG28-35. When delivered, they were unusual in having the beading edging the cream bands picked out in red, rather than the usual black, and I believe all sixteen retained this feature throughout their WY/KWY lives. A lovely shot of KDG26, and to my eyes bright sunshine always seemed to show the Tilling red at its best. Wonderful.

Brendan Smith

01/09/15 – 07:19

KDG26 was part of a batch of 16 buses supplied with Roe low-bridge bodies in 1950. 10 were owned by the West Yorkshire Road Car Company Ltd and 6 including KDG26 were owned by Keighley-West Yorkshire Services Ltd. My records for 1953 show all the 10 WYRCC buses were allocated to the Bradford depot and this confirms the comments from John W. They were lovely solid buses to ride on and sometimes appeared on the Bradford to Ilkley 63 service which was my home route.
I do recall United Automobile having some similar Bristol K5G/Roe re-bodies but I am not sure of the number they had. Can anybody supply more information?

Richard Fieldhouse

01/09/15 – 07:20

CWX 671_2
CWX 671_3

More shots of KDG 26 taken at a Gardner Engine Rally held in June 2005 at Castlefield Canal Basin in Manchester. As well as buses the event included lorries, narrowboats and static engines. Anything was welcome as long it had a Gardner engine. It was a very successful event but I am not aware that it was ever repeated although I moved away from the north west shortly after and lost touch with events in that area.

Philip Halstead

02/09/15 – 06:58

The fascinating thing about these Roe rebodied K5Gs is the body profile, which seemed to have more in common with the pre-war ECW bodies carried originally, than the contemporary ECW design!
The chassis overhaul was very thorough, including of course, the update to PV2 radiator.
I doubt that the original bodies were worn out either, as 5 were transferred to 707-711, the W sanction K6As originally with Strachan utility bodies, later to be K5Gs. Probably the whole exercise was the result of a calculation to maximise the life expectancy, an aim which was well fulfilled!
To cover this K rebodying programme, the G type buses mainly remained in service until 1951/2, and what memories they bring back!

PS. !! Just to echo Brendan`s comment about Tilling red! It was a classic livery . If only the modern image was so adorned !!

John Whitaker

02/09/15 – 06:59

Thank you for your thoughts, gents.

Pete Davies

03/09/15 – 07:15

Coincidentally First Leeds have just repainted a Volvo/Gemini double decker into WYRCC Tilling red with single cream band livery (or an approximation of it).

John Stringer

04/09/15 – 07:09

Interesting thought, John. It has to be better than the multiple shades of grey “camouflage” paint job.

Pete Davies

04/09/15 – 07:12

With reference to the comment on West Yorkshire RCC by Richard Fieldhouse, United rebodied 4 prewar buses with Roe lowbridge bodies;
LUT1 EHN 617 Bristol K5G 47.088 Roe 3058 L27/28R
LUT2 EHN 618 Bristol K5G 47.089 Roe 3062 L27/28R
LUT3 EHN 620 Bristol K5G 47.091 Roe 3067 L27/28R
LUT4 EHN 621 Bristol K5G 47.092 Roe 3071 L27/28R
BGL 17-18,20-21, later BDO 17,18,20 & 21. New in 1939 with ECW 5684/5/7/8 L24/24R series 1 bodies, Rebodied in 1950 as LUT 1-4.
EHN 619 was not rebodied.
United also bought two new Bristol L5G single deck buses bodied by Roe in 1952;
BG 13 PHN 408 Bristol L5G 73.177R Roe ? B35F 1952
BG 14 PHN 409 Bristol L5G 73.178R Roe ? B35F 1952

Ron Mesure

04/09/15 – 07:14

It’s probably not a coincidence that First Leeds have painted a Volvo in Tilling Red since one of the current owners of CWX 671 is a very senior member of management at First Bus.
I’ve just been lent some Omnibus Society Magazines dating from 1963 and there was some comment about the fact that this bus had been entered in the London – Brighton run and some people felt it was too modern. I bet nobody would complain if it was entered now.

Nigel Turner

04/09/15 – 07:14

Having seen it at the Sheffield running day last weekend, I don’t think the first bus Gemini is the correct shade of red.

Don McKeown

05/09/15 – 07:11

Many thanks Ron M for the detailed information on the United Bristol K5Gs.

Richard Fieldhouse

05/09/15 – 07:12

It’s a while since a topic has come up on which I can comment. Here are three photographs which I took of Keighley West Yorkshire K5Gs in 1961 and 1963. I grew up in Keighley and used these K5Gs every day because they were the mainstay of the cross town routes.

wy_01

In this photo of BWY 999 (KDG21) with BWY 994 (KDG16) you can see the difference in them as they are parked side by side in Keighley depot, the ECW body on the left and the Roe on the right.

wy_02

In this photo showing the entrance to Keighley garage, the ECW bodied CWX 668 (KDG223) is next to the famous CWX 671 (KDG26). This shot was taken in October 1961 on a Sunday morning. The buses are watering up ready for going into service. It’s a pity that we can’t see the fleet number on KDG 26, and that is because it was one of the handful which retained stamped metal number plates. I am not sure of the dates when these plates were fitted to the buses, but they were not very legible and so were replaced by transfers.

wy_03

The third photo shows KDG26 just 3 months before it was withdrawn and it looks smart even then. The photo was taken 30/9/62.

David Rhodes

06/09/15 – 07:07

oooH! Nice, David, and very atmospheric! Thank you for posting.

Pete Davies

06/09/15 – 07:08

Lovely photos David and thank you for posting. The aluminium fleetnumber plates you mention were introduced in summer 1957. They were applied externally to 52 vehicles, but by the end of the year the idea had been dropped – the plates being difficult to read at a distance, as David points out. West Yorkshire had had two plates produced for every vehicle in the fleet, and it was decided that they would be fitted internally to each vehicle instead, rather than scrapping them altogether. (One was fitted in the cab and the other near the entrance door).

Brendan Smith

06/09/15 – 07:09

Was Ramsden’s “Yorkshire’s Most Popular Beer”? Ramsden’s brewery occupied the site in Halifax currently occupied by the HBoS offices. Tetley’s brewery, of Leeds, purchased Ramsden’s in 1964, the brewery was demolished in 1968 . . . the then Halifax Building Society’s head office rising from the site in 1973. History suggests perhaps that Ramsden’s might have been over-stating their popularity! Advertisements on buses provide a window into other aspects of social history, which I’m starting to appreciate more as I accelerate past middle age.

Philip Rushworth

06/09/15 – 07:10

In response to Philip Halstead, the Gardner Engine Rally is a two-day weekend event which takes place every two years at different locations on the canal network. Unfortunately there are usually few if any PSVs present. Details at //gardnerengineforum.co.uk/Events.html

Peter Williamson

16/11/19 – 13:12

Re the Philip Rushworth comment 06/09/15, advertising claims like “Most popular” or “best” (as in the Nottingham Area “Home Ales are best” probably fell foul of the Trades Description Act, as they are always open to question.

Terry Walker

Keighley – West Yorkshire – Bristol K – CWX 671 – KDG26

CWX 671

Keighley – West Yorkshire
1950
Bristol K5G
Roe L27/28R

This Roe L27/28R Bristol K5G was delivered to Keighley – West Yorkshire (as K383) in April 1950. Over sixty-one years later KDG26 is seen passing through the impressive arch of the Halifax Piece Hall when taking a very active part in the Heart of the Pennines Event in October 2011. Chassis number 47.023, body number GO3063.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

08/12/15 – 05:55

CWX 671 was in fact new in 1938 and rebodied by Roe in 1950.

Eric Bawden

08/12/15 – 13:57

This epic picture of what is still, today, a magnificent vehicle and in fine condition and brings back happy memories for me from the days in the early 1960s when I was a young conductor at WY’s Ilkley depot. At that time the staff position at Keighley was critical and we were often sent there to help out, on completely unfamiliar routes of course. On one occasion I was sent on route 19 to Hebden Bridge and, my word, what a wild and desolate, but beautiful nevertheless, route it is. In fact so desolate that some of the fare stages could only be described by “fourth milestone from Hebden Bridge” etc. and one of the stages mentions “Galstones” !! One of my most treasured possessions is my 1960 fare book which I often dip into with great pleasure. Regarding the 19 route I still shudder even now in the car at how they went on in the icy Winters – there is a “Swiss style” treacherous hill near to Hebden Bridge with minimal edge protection and a wicked sheer drop in the event of a mishap. A route not for the faint hearted and that’s for sure.

Chris Youhill

08/12/15 – 13:58

An unusual view, Les, and thanks for posting. For a more ‘traditional’ angle of viewing this specimen, please refer to my own posting of her in Fleetwood.

Pete Davies

Yorkshire Woollen District – Bristol K5G – OWT 204 – 154

Yorkshire Woollen District - Bristol K5G - OWT 204 - 154

Yorkshire Woollen District
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H28/28R (1955)

Aliens Land In Dewsbury.

Yorkshire Woollen District experienced a severe shortage of vehicles during 1969 and consequently was obliged to acquire some most untypical vehicle types which no doubt caused much displeasure to both engineering and road staff. Seen here at Savile Town depot, Dewsbury in 1970 are a selection.

From the left.

WCY 892 (160) was one of seven AEC/PRV Bridgemasters (H43/29F) that had come from South Wales Transport, this one being new in 1961.

UHN 642 (166) and WHN 54 (169) were two of six Bristol KSW6B’s with ECW H32/28R bodies, that had been new to United Automobile in 1954/55.

6162 WJ (141) was one of seven Leyland PD2/30’s with Roe H33/26RD bodies that had been new to the Sheffield ‘C’ (British Railways owned) fleet in 1960. From the same source had also come two PD2/20’s with ECW bodies, three Atlanteans and two Burlingham-bodied Leopards.

OWT 204 (154) was one of four Bristol K5G’s with ECW highbridge bodies that had been new to York West Yorkshire in 1939, then rebuilt with new chassis frames and rebodied in 1955. There was also a pair of lowbridge K6B’s from Keighley West Yorkshire.

All those in the photo were withdrawn in 1970 (6162 WJ in 1972) and sold to North’s, the dealer, at Sherburn-in-Elmet only the Bridgemaster seeing further use, being exported to Canada for use initially by a restaurant in Toronto, then by Gray Tours of Winnipeg.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

06/01/17 – 06:24

Hmm . . . varying shades of red! I’, assuming that Ks were placed in service in Tilling red, the Bridgemaster in SWT red, but the PD2 repainted into YWD red. I’ve seen a paint listing somewhere which refers to “BET red” and “BET crimson” as standard colours shared by BET companies: I’m sure YD used one of the two, and Hebble the other (and one of two was the same as Western Welsh) – I’ll have made a note somewhere, I’ll track it down.
It strikes me as odd that YWD went to the trouble of making “coach glasses” for the Bridgemaster and PD2, but not the UA Ks.

Philip Rushworth

06/01/17 – 10:51

Sorry to reveal my ignorance but what do you mean by “coach glasses”?

David Rawsthorn

06/01/17 – 10:52

I knew of the vehicle shortage at YWD but I’m surprised to find that such a variety of interesting vehicles were brought in to help. While I can understand the general displeasure among the work force, as an enthusiast driver I would have been over the moon at getting to know such vehicles.

Chris Youhill

06/01/17 – 10:53

Great photo John. Takes me back to when I started at YWD Head office at Savile Town Dewsbury in 1970. These buses made a welcome change to the MCW Regent Vs which seemed to be everywhere around Dewsbury. The Bridgemasters were christened Welsh Corgis.

J D Blackburn

07/01/17 – 06:44

David
Those glass panels with the operators names on below the rear windows of coaches, I couldn’t think of a better name for the glasses with “Yorkshire” in lieu of destination screens.

Philip Rushworth

08/01/17 – 06:21

Thanks.

David Rawsthorn

08/01/17 – 06:22

I guess the Ks, being considerably older, were considered to be “not long for this world”! I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but for me the ECW body for the K (especially the high bridge KSW version) was the nicest and best balanced half-cab double decker of all time. By contrast, I always thought the Bridgemaster was the ugliest (with apologies to those who love them!)

Stephen Ford

08/01/17 – 06:23

OWT 204 was actually the fifth ex York-West Yorkshire K5G that Yorkshire used. They started with OWT 196/7/201/5 from 1 May 1969 and numbered these 155/4/2/3 respectively. However, OWT 197 was returned to West Yorkshire (for disposal) at the end of May and replaced by OWT 204, the subject of the photo, which took on OWT 197’s fleet number of 154.
At this stage all six West Yorkshire vehicles (4 x K5Gs and 2 x K6Bs) were only on hire and carried a “West Yorkshire Road Car” legal ownership panel and an “On Hire to Yorkshire Woollen District” sticker. They also had “West Yorkshire” fleetnames (i.e. without Keighley- or York- prefixes) and full Tilling red and cream livery with black wings and wheels. This hire situation continued until 18 August 1969, when all six vehicles were sold to Yorkshire Woollen District.
In January 1970, OWT 196/201/4 had their wings and wheels painted red (ex black) and gained Yorkshire fleetnames, but remained in Tilling red and cream.
They were used mainly on YWD routes A1/2/3/4 (Thornhill-Dewsbury-Birstall), for which special short destination blinds were made for the front only; they carried no rear destination or route number blinds. They worked mainly at peak hours, but we were told at the time that they “…are extremely popular with the Yorkshire drivers, who appreciate their reliability and sturdiness. Indeed, they are practically the only double deckers at Dewsbury that do not have to be “booked off” for one fault or another!”

Trevor Leach

08/01/17 – 06:24

I have read before about the “severe vehicle shortage” in 1969 which may have been shared with others. Why was this? Do I remember that they had problems with inspections? In days of uniform fleets it is strange to read that these five “begged” buses had four different makes of engine- a Youhill delight- what was the rest of the fleet then? Leyland? At least I think West Riding- around then- replaced Wulfrunians with buses with various Gardner engines.

Joe

10/01/17 – 06:17

From memory, local newspapers referred to a shortage of spare parts.
In 1969 Yorkshire Woollen’s fleet included:
6 x circa 1950 Leyland PS2s rebodied as double-deckers by Roe in 1962-63
44 x AEC Regent Vs dating from 1958-61
9 x Leyland PD3A built 1962
14 x Albion Lowlander built 1964
22 x Daimler Fleetline built 1965-67
12 x Leyland Atlantean built 1967
Between 1959-62 Yorkshire Woollen purchased 43 AEC Reliance single-deckers, but many of these had been withdrawn by 1969.
YWD purchased 50 bus-bodied Leyland Leopards between 1962-65.
I well remember wishing to travel to school and finding that what had previously been a 70-seat Regent V-operated service was frequently a coach-seated AEC Reliance, either with 39-seat Weymann Fanfare bodywork, or ex-Maidstone & District examples with centre-entrance 37-seat Harrington coachwork.
I regret to say that things got so bad with being unable to even board a vehicle – and consequently being late for school – I finally gave up on YWD and started walking to school.

Paul H

10/01/17 – 16:49

I was aware that Hebble was experiencing severe problems with its fleet around this time (1970) but did not realise YWD shared the same problems.
The former Sheffield buses came to YWD as a result of NBC taking over the former railway-owned C fleet and distributing them to its subsidiaries, but no doubt they helped with the vehicle shortage.

Geoff Kerr

03/03/17 – 10:23

I left Dewsbury in 1968, but I don’t think that the situation was much better for 2 or 3 years before this. I well remember 41 seater Reliance/Harringtons being used on the A group of services to Thornhill where the allocation was a 70 seat Regent V every 5 minutes, with queues from the Market stop almost to the end of the road, and no chance of boarding the bus opposite the Bus Station. I am not sure that the cause was the same as 1969 but the effect certainly was. As an 18 year old I had a Saturday afternoon job with a Market Trader (I had to go to school Saturday morning), and I always walked to the Bus Station and caught one of the other services (Whitley, Grange Moor or Thornhill Edge) which took me close to home – and they were always full with frustrated A service passengers.

Malcolm Hirst

22/11/18 – 07:02

So bad was the state of the fleet in the late sixties that the road staff struck over the state of the vehicles one spokesman for the staff cited the PS rebuilds as the worst offenders Despite this they lasted well into the NBC era.

Chris Hough

24/11/18 – 06:15

The rebuilt PS2s also caused a lightening strike during the seventies. This was due to heaters not working. Sounds quite radical but it was probably the accumulation of vehicles constantly being “logged off” for this problem. I was working at Dewsbury head office at the time and remember having to walk home cursing everything.

John Blackburn

28/08/20 – 06:46

Was lucky enough to work for YWD in 1970 and doubly lucky to have missed driving a K5G up any hill in the area. 6 cylinder Gardner engined half cabs were bad enough but the thought of a 5 cylinder one only makes you think of trips you could miss with late running. Always found the ex Sheffield Leylands being a pleasure to dd felt quite tight vehicles and easy to drive. Really enjoyed the Corgi Bridgemasters unlike many drivers. Being tall the gear stick being at an angle was far easy to use in comparison to the Regent V where second gear was hard to engage due to being at the back of the bulkhead and a knuckle scraper.

Ian Gardner

15/10/22 – 06:04

I remember seeing one of the ex-Sheffield Titans freshly repainted into YWD red. Unfortunately the paint was rather thin and the Sheffield blue bands were still visible under it!

Glen Simpson

Bristol Omnibus – Bristol K5G – FAE 51 – W85

FAE 51

Bristol Omnibus
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H30/26R

I can’t recall seeing the rounded lines of the pre-war ECW highbridge double decker in OBP, so thought you might like to see FAE 51 in July 1961. The vehicle was new (blue livery?) to Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co Ltd in 1939 as C3132, survived the war and by this time had been moved to the driver training fleet as W85. It is resting in what I recall as the small coach depot in a street (probably demolished years ago) east of the main road up Old Market and near Lawrence Hill. It never seemed to be manned and occasionally had several coaches parked up.
The ECW body looked rather nicer than the BBW (Brislington Body Works) version which looked a bit sterner! See the vehicle on the left at this link.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin

19/06/17 – 07:21

The depot near Old Market Geoff refers to was called West Street. Although I grew up in Bristol and was at school there in 1961, unfortunately I’ve no recollection of it! I visited all the other depots in the city but this one escaped my notice.
I was told that West Street was a former Greyhound coach depot, actually in Trinity Street. Coaches moved from there to Lawrence Hill in the 1950s, after which it was used for coach parking during the winter season, but I don’t know when it closed completely.
A nice reminder of the pre-war ECW bodied K5Gs, the last of which survived in passenger service in Bristol until 1959.

Geoff Kerr

20/06/17 – 07:25

In 1935, a batch of nine Leyland TD5, with almost identical bodies were delivered to Tyneside. They were JR 8618/8626, and numbered TT18/22.
However, some controversy exist as to who actually built them. The design is unquestionably ECW, but some accounts have them being built “presumably subcontract or under licence” by Charles H Roe.

Ronnie Hoye

20/06/17 – 07:26

Geoff
Thanks for that further information, which allowed me to find this link: https://books.google.co.uk/books

Geoff Pullin

20/06/17 – 07:29

I have some copies of PSV Circle BOC allocations of 1958 (either side of the big City services reorganisation) which record the depot as Trinity Street rather than West Street. The date of closure is given as 24 October 1958. Prior to the reorganisation it is noted as an overnight garage for coaches and store for delicensed vehicles. It does not appear to have had its own allocation at that point in time. Subsequent to the change PSVC records that all Bristol based coaches were allocated to Lawrence Hill. At that time coach fleet numbers were mixed in with the single deck fleet number series so without going through the allocation vehicle by vehicle it is not easy to see if any were allocated anywhere else prior to the change.

Peter Cook

21/06/17 – 07:22

According to Mike Walker and the late Geoff Bruce, in “Greyhound Motors” published by the Bristol Vintage Bus Group, “the Trinity Road” coach garage was sold to the British Railways Board in 1961 for use as a road vehicle workshop, and were still standing in the early 21st century, still in use, as a car repair and exhaust centre in 2003. 96 West Street was the office address in the early years, but those premises were sold in the early 1930s. The Trinity Street premises virtually backed onto the West Street site – and from a 2014 Google image look to be in use as a carpet warehouse.

Peter Delaney

Southern Vectis – Bristol K5G – DDL 50 – 703

Southern Vectis - Bristol K5G - DDL 50 - 703

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company
1940
Bristol K5G
ECW O30/26R

In 1937 Southern Vectis took two examples of the Bristol GO5G chassis, and then ordered two examples of the later K5G design. CDL 899, which arrived in July 1939 with fleet number 702, was followed in January 1940 by DDL 50, number 703 which, like its predecessors, had ECW H30/26R bodywork. These G and K buses had the high mounted version of the Bristol radiator, whilst all later Southern Vectis K types had the PV2 style. The next K chassis to enter the Southern Vectis fleet came in 1944/45, but these were four K6A machines which were very quickly converted to Gardner 5LW power, and all subsequent K/KS/KSW deliveries had 5LW engines from new. Nos. 702 and 703 were both converted to open toppers in 1959 for operation on the scenic coastal routes, where 702 is seen on 28 August 1967. Sitting “outside” as these veterans climbed up the stiff gradient out of Ventnor was a musical experience to savour. In 1969 703 was converted into a tree lopper, and finally sold off into preservation in 1979, but 702 continued in occasional and promotional service on the Isle of Wight. Happily, both CDL 899 and DDL 50 survive.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

28/05/18 – 06:45

Living In Portsmouth for twenty years from 1956, I experienced inside and outside rides on both these buses over the years. Outside was always pleasant, both from the weather and mechanical aspects, but inside was a cacophony that assaulted the eardrums. How the drivers ever put up with the noise is beyond me. I always assumed from the vibration that the engines were mounted directly on the chassis. And why did SV ever deign to eschew 6LW engines on such a hilly island, producing vehicles that were hard work for drivers and so sluggish, even these with their roofs cut off! I’m glad that they’ve survived, though!

Chris Hebbron

29/05/18 – 06:34

My G certainly is directly mounted and is extremely noisy but vibration in the saloon is low. Fitting a 6LW in a K was not straightforward and I have done it in a KSW which had a re-design to allow fitment but not straight forward.
Think on K it would have reqd body mods.

Roger Burdett

31/05/18 – 07:32

There were GO6Gs and K6Gs in South Wales where the hilly operating terrain really demanded them. Significantly none of them had ECW bodies which were fairly standardised. Pontypridd had batches of Beadle-bodied Ls and Ks with both 5LW and 6LW engines and the bodies were significantly different due to the extra length of the 6LW. Merthyr was another regular K6G buyer whilst Cardiff (not as hilly) bought a batch of unique KW6Gs with Bruce bodies.

David Beilby

31/05/18 – 07:35

Chris H raises a question which has interested me for a long time; why Tilling companies never had any K6Gs. I may be wrong but as far as I’m aware, until the advent of the KS series, Eastern Coach Works never produced any bodywork into which the 6LW engine would fit. If any companies in the group had a requirement for 6 cylinder power, then it had to be the 6A or the 6B, the Gardner 6LW was never an option. Of course there were Bristol K6Gs, popular with some South Wales municipals and independents such as Silcox but not in Tilling fleets. Similarly, when Hants & Dorset wanted L6Gs, they had to send them to Portsmouth Aviation to be bodied because ECW couldn’t fit the engine into their standard single deck body.
I imagine the Bristol radiator could have been moved forward in the style of the Guy Arab but was it the builders who were unwilling to alter their specifications or was it Tilling HQ who decreed that operators couldn’t have 6LWs in the 1930s and 40s?

Chris Barker

01/06/18 – 05:56

It is said that one of the design constraints of the Bristol AVW engine was that it should fit in the bonnet of the K type chassis, thereby limiting its capacity to 8.1 litres. Not until 1950, when the maximum length of double deckers was increased to 27ft 6ins, did Bristol/ECW offer 6LW powered versions of the K type, the KS and KSW. In these the bulkhead was moved back to accommodate the extra length of this engine. As other correspondents have stated, the K6G/KW6G buses built for municipalities and Silcox all had bodywork from builders other than ECW to incorporate a set back bulkhead. Taking up Chris Hebbron’s point about the challenging Isle of Wight topography for the 5LW, Southern Vectis continued to specify this small engine in the wider, longer and heavier KSW type of which it had 15 examples. Only when the Lodekka appeared on the scene did Southern Vectis finally accept the 6LW.

Roger Cox

04/06/18 – 16:37

CDL 899_2

CDL 899 was used for a while on the service to the Needles from Alum Bay and is seen nearing the end of its climb. I did wonder whether the noise could be heard across the Solent!


A second photo shows the addition of route branding.

Keith Newton

07/06/18 – 05:31

Lovely photos, Keith, thx for posting them. can well understand the engine noise on this challenging route. The front design of the ECW bodywork, with its scrunched-up windscreen, has the effect of making the high radiator barely obvious. It certainly was when it was fitted with a wartime utility body!

Chris Hebbron

07/06/18 – 05:32

The exchanges over this bus are quite revealing. I have never been closely involved in the bus industry and others may be better qualified to comment. Whereas in pre nationalisation days- the aftermath of the last war- you could obtain (probably beg) a Bristol with AEC engine and Roe body, as nationalisation progressed you could have a K chassis as long as it had a Bristol or 5cyl Gardner engine, an ECW body and any colour as long as it was green, red and/or cream. Choice was restricted and was down purely to chassis length. Later on, the Lodekka even eliminated height as an option: was this, much later and from comments here, the terminal Leyland disease? Certainly the command economy may have been dismantled in the 50’s but lived on for years on the Bristol-Lowestoft axis.
Back to the bus and what a lovely example- the odd feature to me is the absence of elfansafety railings on the upper deck- just the side panels raised above the seat backs. If the bus were to topple, that was you done, or overhanging trees, crane jibs or whatever. Tiny mirrors, but then the conductor would watch behind. Happy days!

Joe

10/06/18 – 08:32

Joe, I don’t think that the product policies of Bristol CV and ECW in the 1950’s and ’60’s were similar to those of Leyland in the 1970’s. First of all, one must remember that the restrictions were placed on BCV and ECW, who were only allowed to sell to the state-owned operators; while those operators could continue to select whichever supplier they wanted – and, indeed, they did so, particularly the Scottish Bus Group, but the THC also bought Bedford coaches, and sometimes lightweight buses.
It is also generally known that BCV and ECW maintained close contact with their customers during that era, and some specialist models were also produced, in numbers that were probably not really economic – I’m thinking of the SC and SU small single deck chassis. The Lodekka was of course a solution that provided the comfort of an highbridge layout within the overall height of a lowbridge bus – with a stepless lower deck floor to boot with the F series models.
It is also worth remembering that BCV and ECW were relatively low-volume producers, and their customers did have more choice. As such, significantly wider choices of engines, etc, would probably not have been viable.
By the 1970’s Leyland had a virtual monopoly of the heavy duty bus and coach market in the UK – and, judging from contemporary reports, seemed to believe that they knew what their customers wanted. I guess that the subsequent history tells us whether that was correct – or not!

Nigel Frampton

West Yorkshire – Bristol JO5G – BWT 765 – 970


Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1937
Bristol JO5G
ECW B32F

West Yorkshire Bristol JO5G 970 with Eastern Coach Works (ECW) B32F body built in 1937 is also seen at Bradford Chester Street Bus Station about 1950. It would appear to being used as a temporary crew rest room after a duty on a service from Ilkley. This bus was was one of a further twenty eight “Js” rebuilt by ECW with a roller blind indicator box to replace the “bible” indicator. Bristol JO5G 970 was part of a large fleet of over one hundred bought between 1935 and 1937 and the “Js” could be seen operating over a wide area of the West Yorkshire Company network. 970 was withdrawn from service at the end of September 1954 and the last in the fleet JO5G 996 went out of service in May 1955.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

06/03/11 – 09:19

Another wonderful picture of particular nostalgia for me, as I lived in Ilkley in those days, travelled often on service 63, and when I joined West Yorkshire in 1960 worked on the route frequently. Although the installation of the postwar pattern full size roller destination boxes was an obvious improvement for all concerned, the fitment always seemed to me to be a little excessive in height and took something away from the beautiful classic lines of these vehicles. I had completely forgotten that the intermediate display was as comprehensive as shown in the picture – later editions settled for “Manningham Lane, Shipley, White Cross” and “Burley in Wharfedale” was certainly a bonus. West Yorkshire was one of those companies who liked to stick to three digit fleet numbers, which brought about an interesting point with this batch : In the 1937 delivery BWT 794 became 999, thereby “bursting the thousand”, and BWT 795 became 101.

Chris Youhill

06/03/11 – 11:55

Absolutely wonderful photograph which again takes me back further than I would care to admit!
WYRC allocated fleet numbers on a “hundred” block basis, service bus single deckers going on to a new “100” series when the 900 block was exhausted. I well remember riding on these “J”s , particularly from Bingley to Dick Hudsons, and it was these buses which evoked those memories of internal transfers which were discussed some weeks ago. “Please tender exact fare and state destination” etc!
I agree with Chris that the classic lines of the ECW body were somewhat spoiled by the roller blind conversion, which always seemed a bit “spasmodic” as to why some were and some were not converted.
I remember riding on the last “J” in service, in 1955, on an enthusiast tour from Bradford to York, where we also sampled the delights of the 3 “ADG”s, a story to be told elsewhere.
A delightful photograph Richard, and what a contrast between these later BWT registered J types and their earlier squarer ECOC bodied elder cousins with YG, AWW and AWX registrations!
A fleet with very strong Tilling influences, and yet how strange that the body layout, if not style, was typical of BET practice, with the front porch style door. Superb rugged, reliable buses which just oozed atmosphere and character!

John Whitaker

11/03/11 – 07:44

I’ve never driven a Bristol J or G, but K (in service) and L (in preservation) are old friends. A letter in Buses Illustrated about 40 years ago (I’m afraid I’ve forgotten the exact wording) suggested that–unlike the London RT driver–the poor provincial Bristol driver had to wrestle with heavy, awkward controls. Nothing could be further from the truth. Steering is light and dead positive, brakes are progressive and trustworthy, the clutch allows a nice smooth takeup, the gearbox is less demanding than some and has sensible ratios and the cab is comfortable: in short, an ideal driver’s bus. Or was I always lucky enough to get the good ‘uns?
Lovely evocative photograph! Thanks.

Ian Thompson

11/03/11 – 11:13

I agree with you fully Ian on every point there, and in particular concerning the brakes – I always found Bristol brakes to be completely predictable and reliable at all times. In my own view, and I appreciate that every driver has his/her favoured model, the Bristols of that era shared friendly top place with the Leyland PS1/PD1 for a pleasant and comfortable driving experience and absolutely no hidden vices.

Chris Youhill

11/03/11 – 17:51

I think it is what the onlooker sees (or thinks he sees). The pre-selector gearbox, especially on AEC Regents, always looked and sounded quick, smooth and light to operate. Manual gear change (before synchromesh) required the pause to let revs die down when changing up, or the blip on the accelerator to speed them up when changing down. So it was a slower change, accompanied by mechanical sounds that gave the impression of was hard and heavy work. Derby’s Fodens and Bartons’ Utility Guy Arabs certainly always looked and sounded as though they were pigs to drive – but there again I may be quite wrong.

Stephen Ford

12/03/11 – 07:11

Stephen, the Fodens were not at all hard to drive in terms of physical effort, but the gearboxes required spot on precision and were very unforgiving. Any miss-match of road speed and engine revs produced a high pitched screech rather akin to applying a piece of metal to a power saw and was most embarrassing. The Guy Arabs (early marques including the utilities) had easily manageable gearboxes, once you remembered that some were “back to front” in that first and second were nearest to you, and third and fourth were against the engine panel. Those Arabs did though have very heavy clutches and much effort was also needed to press the accelerator hard enough once the governors engaged. Despite these observations though I don’t think either model could fairly be described as “a pig to drive” – provided you were interested in the job they were rewarding and very tough vehicles, and I’d just love an hour on each of them right now.
My favourite bus at Samuel Ledgard’s Otley Depot was the Roe rebodied utility Guy Arab JUA 763, with “back to front” gearbox – I used to take it out at every opportunity. The placid little garage man who allocated the buses was always aware that he might have it on his hands to the last each morning as the undedicated brethren shunned it. His face would light up with relief when I appeared and, pencil poised, who would enquire “763 kid ??” and with a happy smile delete the number on his little list. My next task was then to try and pacify with cigs, sweets or teas the disgruntled conductors who would mutter “narrow gangways and only one bell upstairs.”

Chris Youhill

West Yorkshire – Bristol JO5G – AWW 165 – 925


Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1936
Bristol JO5G
ECOC B32F

Bristol JO5G 925 is seen operating on a local service in Harrogate about 1950. This bus was one of sixty built by the Eastern Counties Omnibus Company in 1935/36 and is of the square back style. The previous posting of West Yorkshire JO5G 970 shows the round back style body of the 1937 batch. 925 was in service up to August 1952 and all the square back J types had gone by the end of October 1952.
Harrogate was also the headquarters for the West Yorkshire Road Car Company and mecca for the bus enthusiast. It always seemed to me to be a place of bus contrasts with the oldest in the fleet usually on the town local services and the newest buses generally operating on the prestigious 36 Leeds to Ripon service. Perhaps this was West Yorkshire trying to impress their United cousins at Ripon.
I made many visits to Harrogate in the fifties using the WY Skipton to Harrogate 76 service from Burley-in-Wharfedale and well remember my first sighting of the prototype Bristol Lodekka 822 (DX1) as well as the pre-production Lodekka with an open platform and later numbered DX2. Other strange buses to seen in Harrogate were the Morris/Beadles 618/619 (SM1/SM2) on town local services but my favourites were the many Bristol JO5Gs to be seen on various routes. These were very exciting days for a young bus enthusiast and never to be forgotten.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

24/04/11 – 15:04

The photo of 925 is nostalgic beyond belief for me as I so well remember these earlier “J”s in Bradford’s Chester Street Bus Station when I was a boy. They were obviously older buses than the “rounder” BWT J types and the following L types with similar bodies. There was always one parked (in my memory anyway!) on the little adjacent piece of land on the right as one exited the bus station, and it always seemed to have the “Have you Macleaned your teeth today” advert on the back. Other memories of these wonderful machines were on trips to Baildon, and to Dick Hudsons on the Bingley to Eldwick service. Oh to be able to ride on one again! They were amongst the most characterful and attractive buses of all time. Wonderfully efficient buses too, from an operational viewpoint.
Thank you to Richard for this superb memory jogger.
It may be of interest to other enthusiasts to know that I am currently preparing a readable WY fleet list from info. taken from various publications Hopefully, this will be included in the fleet list section on this website.

John Whitaker

24/04/11 – 15:06

My sentiments exactly Richard. From 1941 – 1947 I travelled to and from Ben Rhydding School on the Bristol Js, prewar Ls, Dennis Aces and Lancets.
The two “square backed” ones allocated to Ilkley at the time were 946/7 AWX 798/9 and I loved them. Later, when I was a conductor at Ilkley from 1960 my favourite route was the 76 Skipton – Tadcaster. It was a five hour round trip (wonderful) and took five “cars” to operate it – it was shared by Harrogate, Ilkley, Skipton and Wetherby depots (and by GRASSINGTON who used the Skipton depot “car” for one round trip.) I too loved the atmosphere of Harrogate and you always had the feeling that the Company’s excellence was concentrated there – indeed anyone who had to go there on a disciplinary charge (as opposed to local depot action) knew full well that they might come back via the Labour Exchange. If you were travelling from Burley in 1960/1 I may well have issued you with a ticket or two !!

Chris Youhill

Bristol Tramways – Bristol J – AHU 803 – J134-759-2355


Copyright Ken Jones

Bristol Tramways & Carriage Company Limited
1934
Bristol J
Bristol B35RD

AHU 803 (2355) was built as Bristol J134 in 1934 by the Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company as a private hire coach. It is one of only three preserved Bristol ‘J’ types, and the only one that has been preserved of those that operated with Bristol Tramways.
The vehicle history AHU 803 started life as private hire coach fleet number J134 and apart from a fleet number change in 1937 to 759 remained unchanged until the Second World War. In July 1941 its seating was rearranged to seat 34 while it was used as a bus, and between May 1942 and September 1944 it ran with a gas producer trailer.
After the war a Gardner 5LW diesel engine was fitted replacing the original Bristol 6-cylinder petrol engine and was renumbered 2355 at the same time. Later in 1947 it was rebodied with a new bus body at the operator’s coachworks at Brislington, Bristol. The new body seated 35, and the bus re-entered service in June 1947. In 1958 it was used during the construction of Bristol bus station for carrying large signs with the centre of the roof and rear of the body removed.
It was later sold to Nailsworth Boys’ Club, when a boat rack was carried on the roof, bunk beds and a kitchen were fitted and it was painted in a light blue livery. The vehicle was bought from Nailsworth Boys’ Club in June 1978 and stored for many years in a underground factory. It was then moved to Saltford before moving  to Yate goods shed in September 1981 where restoration started. It was moved from Yate to Brislington in February 1993 and restoration was completed during 1999.

Copy by Ken Jones compiled from the Bristol Vintage Bus Group website

13/06/12 – 09:54

Lovely specimen! Thanks for sharing, Ken. Here’s a question. Did this arrangement have a door for the passenger compartment, making it a B..RD or was it just B..R ?

Pete Davies

13/06/12 – 09:54

The history of this bus might suggest that it is a bit or a reconstruction after so many changes but having seen and photographed it on many occasions, it is a superb bus in beautiful condition looking just as it would the day it was new as far as condition goes. Delightful and still in perfect order.

Richard Leaman

13/06/12 – 12:00

What an absolute delight!
I can just hear this bus growling away and would love to hear it in action. It is also quite unusual in having the BBW version of the standard Tilling post war body, which was, I believe, more common in double deck form.
This is quite an early example, before the standardised fitment of the Gardner 5LW, and must have been a JNW (?)
I remember a preserved United Counties J, still with “shield” radiator, but ECW post war body, but where is the other preserved example?
Thanks for a super post!

John Whitaker

13/06/12 – 17:12

May I point you to Gerry Tormey’s website which has details on specifications and survivors of Bristol J vehicles at www.bristolsu.co.uk/  The United Counties vehicle is VV 5696 and the third vehicle is Western National ATT 922. ADV 128 is under restoration.

Ken Jones

13/06/12 – 17:14

In answer to the various questions: yes, the body has a door, so it’s a B35RD. And both comments are right – this isn’t the original body, it’s a replacement dating from 1947; and the original engine was a Bristol JJW petrol engine.
If you’d like to hear it in action (and have a ride on it), then please come along to our rally at Brislington, Bristol on Sunday 12th August 2012, when it will definitely be in action. If you can’t make that, then you should find it at a couple of other events during the year, and either way, more details about events and the bus itself are available on our website, www.bvbg.org.uk  
Hope to see you in August!

Chris Knight

14/06/12 – 09:13

Chris-delighted to hear that this Bristol JO5G will be running on the 12 August event. I do hope somebody will do a video clip of a ride of this bus and post it on this web site. I can still recall the sounds of my last service ride on a West Yorkshire Bristol JO5G 979 from Otley to Fewston in the summer of 1954. The combination of a Bristol J with a Gardner 5LW engine and mid-ship mounted gearbox produces a most evocative sound.

Richard Fieldhouse

15/06/12 – 05:42

Chris K… Thank you for answering the question. It looks as if there should be a door – that’s why I asked.

Pete Davies

15/06/12 – 05:43

Richard F… I shall be there on the 12th and will certainly try to get that ride and will indeed make the video film for the Bus Sounds section. Let’s hope it’s a nice sunny day!

Richard Leaman

04/08/12 – 07:53

Can I be difficult and disagree with some of the foregoing.
1. “It is one of only three preserved Bristol J Types” – must be more than that. Tony Brown at Chelvesdon has one, I’ve got two plus there is the one in the picture. Also an H is only a J with a different engine so I think Colin Billinton’s WNOC H ought to be included in the total on the basis that there is no more difference between an H and a J than there is between a JJW and a JO6A for example.
2. “and the only one that has been preserved of those which operated with Bristol Tramways.” Don’t think so. One of mine was operated by Tramways.
3. According to my understanding of the standard bodywork nomenclature, the ‘D’ suffix for doors is only normally applied to rear platform double deckers. Looking back at my PSV Circle sheets from those long gone days, Bristol L types, which, so far as I know always sported a sliding platform door always seem to be described as B35R.

Peter Cook

24/09/12 – 17:25

The other Bristol Tramways preserved J is BHW 432, fleet no.2199, which has a 1949 ECW body on a 1935 chassis. I last saw it at Telford, restored as fairground vehicle “Alice”.
Western National’s ADV 128 was one of those taken over by Bristol in the 1950 exchange of territory, as no. 2497. I believe this is at Winkleigh.

Geoff Kerr

29/10/14 – 07:05

This was in service last Sunday at BVBG Autumn running day – difficult to imagine it is 80 years old.

Ken Jones

03/02/15 – 05:48

Great to see these buses still in existence. I drove one of these in the sixties for about a year. It was being used to transport workmen to a road construction works in Northern Ireland. It had what I believed to be a 150 Gardner. It also had six volt lights and very slow wipers, a nightmare on wet winter nights. Still I look back on it with fond memories.

Paul Stuart

26/03/16 – 16:51

In 1967 I worked for Dowsett Engineering and we had two Bristols both Coaches I think. One had a beast of an engine in it, a Bristol and the other had a Gardner 6LW and both built like tanks. Lovely coaches, and I’m a Leyland man!

ELJ

27/03/16 – 07:28

Chris K and Peter C: as far as I’m aware, it’s always been PSVC policy to not distinguish between rear-entrance single-deckers with doors, and those without, presumably because, with single-deckers, for many decades doors have been the rule and no doors very much the exception. Looking back now this perhaps seems an omission, but PSVC codes have never catered for all layouts.
As to why doors should be the norm on single-deckers but not double-deckers, I can only think it was because single-deckers were more likely to be used on longer-distance and/or higher speed services.

David Call

12/01/17 – 09:10

Responding to David Call’s comment, firstly, there is of course a third type of entrance for single deckers which seems to have been prevalent prior to approx. 1935 which is a hinged door at the top of the entrance steps which is what AHT pictured above has. I had a sort of feeling these are referred to as vestibuled but I may have dreamed that.
I think the answer to the query about doors being normal on single deckers is that, on the standard ECW bodied L for example, there is a seat right across the back of the bus behind the entrance. If there were no door, the occupant of that seat would get soaked when the bus moved if the rain were coming in the right direction. Notably, single deckers which have no door (for example Exeter 66 (EFJ 666)) have no rear seat.

Peter Cook

13/01/17 – 06:37

Peter
Edinburgh single deckers with open backs had a seat for three at the rear.

Stephen Allcroft

14/01/17 – 07:07

Stephen,
I knew there would turn out to be an exception – to prove the rule of course. Scots must be hardy types. … or maybe being canny Scots the operator didn’t want to lose the fares on 3 seats just because the passengers would get cold and wet.

Peter Cook

Western National – Bristol H5G – FJ 8967 – 137


Copyright Ken Jones

Western National Omnibus Co Ltd
1933
Bristol H5G
Bristol B35R

Here is a sepia tone picture of Colin Billington’s restored Bristol H vehicle taken in the South Hams district of South Devon on the 19th September 2009 seen heading towards Kingsbridge, with Colin at the wheel.
Originally FJ 8967 was a Bristol H4B with a Brush B32R body. It was converted to H5G in 1939 and rebodied with a Bristol body in 1942.
It entered service in 1933 as Western National 137 and spent all its service life in South Devon when it was withdrawn from service in 1957 it became a showman’s vehicle. Purchased by Colin in 1996 who fully restored it in WWII livery, such as the white on the front of the mudguards. The shot could have quite easily been taken in the early forties don’t you think?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

23/11/12 – 08:22

A delightful shot of an old vehicle happily plodding away in it’s home environment Ken. As you say, it could quite easily have been taken in the early forties – in fact I thought that it had! No cars in the frame to give the game away, and the bridge looks like its been there donkey’s years. Thank you for posting it.

Brendan Smith

West Yorkshire – Bristol GO5G – YG 8986 – 306


Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1935
Bristol GO5G
Eastern Counties L53R

West Yorkshire Bristol GO5G 306 with Eastern Counties L53R body built in 1935 is seen at Bradford Chester Street Bus Station about 1950. It is ready to depart to Baildon via Canal Road and this information is clearly displayed on its “bible” indicator. For its return journey, the conductor or driver would release the side clips on the “bible” to enable the horizontal flap to be turned to show “Bradford.” The intermediate destination points in reverse order would also be revealed on the hidden “page” after which the “bible” was then re-clipped.
No doubt the crews welcomed the adoption by West Yorkshire of roller indicator blinds from 1944 onwards, though the operating handles were still outside and involved a clamber over a hot radiator but there was no more awkward lifting of a heavy “bible” metal sheet arrangement. I wonder what injuries occurred and whether there were any compensation claims with handling of the “bible” indicator metal sheets.
306 was withdrawn from service at the end of November 1950 but the “bible” indicators remained in use with West Yorkshire I believe in 1958 with the demise of the last pre-war Bristol L5Gs.
Can anybody confirm the date of the last pre-war L5Gs? I have only West Yorkshire fleet lists to 1955.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

27/02/11 – 08:39

Thank you Richard for sharing with us this wonderfully composed and evocative picture. I have departed from that very spot countless times when I worked for West Yorkshire at Ilkley Depot. We operated services 63/68 to Ilkley and Ben Rhydding via Manningham Lane or Canal Road, and had just one weekday trip to Baildon – out via route 59 and Baildon Road and return via route 61 and Baildon Green. I never had to use the incredible and ludicrous “bible” indicators and, quite rightly, they would never have been permitted in today’s Health and Safety climate – this legislation is often sneered at, and can be “over the top” on occasion but it was certainly sorely needed in those days. At a quick glance it would appear that the last prewar L5Gs were indeed withdrawn in September 1958. Of interest is the “Tilling Group” swivel radiator filler cap, retro fitted to most vehicles in place of the original flat screw down pattern. Thanks once again for a particularly splendid picture.

Chris Youhill

27/02/11 – 11:19

I know I am susceptible to nostalgia, buses being no exception, but this photo has it all for me! As a child, I remember the shape of the ECOC “G” bodies so well, as they contrasted vividly with the post war fleet. They lasted until 1952, as they had provided cover for the company’s “K” type rebodying programme.
I can see them now, hurtling down Thornton Road from Denholm, leaving clouds of smoke in their wake.
What a place Chester Street was for a young enthusiast. Day trips to Baildon and Ilkley on such delights as 306, and their “J” cousins, and stopping off at Harry Ramsdens on the way back. Most of all, awareness of contrasting shape variations amongst the WY fleet. There was that green hut, full of stacks of spare bible indicators, and, as you exited the bus station, at the little parking area to the right, bus backs of differing profiles would persuade you of the delights of BOVRIL, or else pose the question, “Have you McLeaned your teeth today”?
Wonderful memories of a superb fleet in its heyday!
Can it be 60 years since the passing of these fine vehicles?
Thanks to Richard for this post…. Any more WYRC Co. enthusiasts out there?

John Whitaker

27/02/11 – 11:25

Yes, a lovely picture with much nostalgic value. I didn’t realise that ‘bible’ indicators were still in use as late as 1958 – they lasted until 1955 in York, where I never heard them referred to by any of the older staff as anything other than ‘flap boards’. West Yorkshire must have been very fond of them because they actually converted some of the vehicles they inherited from York Corporation to bibles from blinds.
The picture indicates, and I assume from Richard’s description, that the hinge was horizontal and that the flap was raised or lowered. That’s how I remember them, but I have seen photos, (pre-war), clearly showing a vertical hinge where the flap was turned like a page in a book. Can anyone throw any light on this?
In addition to being heavy and awkward, a problem with ‘bible’ indicators arose when the vehicle operated on more than one route. It would then be necessary to carry another board, either under the staircase or, on a single-decker, lodged between the bonnet and nearside mudguard. York’s Circle route, with three different destinations, would require a change of board every hour; some photographs suggest an additional slip board, just showing the change in intermediate route points, but I really can’t be sure about that; however the problem was solved, it would have been a tiresome bind for the crews, no doubt.
Thank you again, Richard, for this great picture.

Roy Burke

27/02/11 – 16:10

A question for Chris, then…
How did you get a 5G like this one up Browgate into Baildon? With great difficulty?
I remember the ‘flap boards”on York buses: they gave the York fleet a wonderfully old-fashioned & “foreign” look that went with the rest of the place- and the white boards went with the white “lavatory brick” so often seen in York (sorry- “Yark”)!

Joe

27/02/11 – 20:03

Roy you are quite right – although in the minority there were versions of these boards where the hinge was vertical and the pages turned “book fashion” – I remember them well and they were around after the War also. Additionally there were other lightweight boards with only one narrow line carrying the ultimate destination in black and the route number in red. They were shaped like a letter “H”, with slender legs at either side and the narrow route line midway between bottom and top – these must have been far easier to “hoist aloft” than the full size multi-leaf monstrosities.
Joe, you’ll have the Gardner legal team after you!! Slow steady progress in low gears was essential of course, but the big hearted Gardners would go anywhere you know – however Browgate did admittedly often demand first gear. I have a wonderful piece of video which I took on an enthusiasts’ outing on preserved KDG 26. Knowing what was to come I positioned myself on the nearside front seat and the superb and highly competent driver chose just the right moment to execute a masterly change into first gear without the slightest jerk or click. I often wonder to this day how the GO5Gs and similar models managed to achieve Leeds to Harrogate in virtually the same running time as the present day despite having to tackle the ascent to Moortown, Harewood Bank and Almsford Bank and so forth.

Chris Youhill

28/02/11 – 06:45

Eastern Counties were also users of bible indicators although whether they lasted into the fifties I couldn’t say.
Lancs United had their own variant on the bible this was the slot in stencil which was a metal stencil which was back lit. The boards were dropped into the indicator box by the conductor. On double deckers the boards were kept under the stairs and would occasionally fall over with a great clatter.
Preserved LUT Leyland Tiger 114 CTF 423 a 1938 TS7 with Roe bodywork has had the feature restored and can be seen in its restored glory at this link.

Chris Hough

02/03/11

Strange how Eastern Counties produced a rather nice five bay body on this and then changed to a six bay design on later construction, as on the North Western K5G’s

Chris Barker

02/03/11

In 1934 Keighley-West Yorkshire took delivery of two Bristol G-types – K111/2 (YG 5733/4) – which were the first Bristols to be fitted with Gardner’s new 5LW diesel engine. Previous G-types had been powered by Bristol’s own design of 6-cylinder petrol engine, and indeed the chassis of K111/2 were originally to have been powered by this unit. However they were modified to take the Gardner engines during construction at Bristol, and were subsequently given chassis numbers GO5G.1 and GO5G.2, denoting G-type, Oil engine, 5-cylinder, Gardner. The vehicles were of further historic interest as they were West Yorkshire’s first Bristols and also the first Bristols to be fitted with lowbridge bodywork (in this case 52-seaters by Brush).
Further GO5Gs were delivered to WY in 1935 (including the imposingly handsome 306 in the photo), these as mentioned having ECOC bodywork – the forerunners of what would become Eastern Coach Works. Thus started WY’s long and happy relationship with the hallowed trinity of Bristol chassis, Gardner engine and ECW bodywork that lasted into the ‘Bristol’ Olympian era – only thwarted when Leyland short-sightedly closed the Bristol factory in 1983.
Regarding Joe’s comment on the progress of 5Gs up into Baildon, I well remember a WY fitter commenting that they might have been plodders but they were unbelievably reliable and very economical. His quote was that “they might be slow but they could pull”t town hall down on a pint o’ diesel!” He may have had a point!

Brendan Smith

03/03/11 – 08:39

I can certainly vouch for Brendan`s comment about the pulling power of WYRC 5LW engined buses. I well remember hearing each cylinder in its separate firing as a G mounted Baildon Brow. They could have gone up a house side without stalling! I have similar memories of 5LW West Yorkshire buses on Garrowby, and Hollins Hills!
The AWW batch of 1935 was less common in Bradford, but their reversion to a 6 bay layout was more a return to norm, with the 5 bay batch being very much an exception in ECOC output, a position which continued for the rest of Lowestoft’s pre war production. Strangely enough, photographs of the AWW batch seem to be difficult to find.

John Whitaker

12/04/11 – 05:00

Referring to Chris Hough’s comments dated 28/02/2011, from 1945 to 1950/1 we used to have our annual holiday at Lowestoft and we stayed at a house at the back of the town. The road was part of the Eastern Counties route to Oulton Broad and my recollection is the buses had “Bible Board” indicators. They were not as elaborate as the one in the photo but had a pair of what looked like standard side lights to illuminate the boards in the dark. So it seems they did last until then. Incidentally, the Eastern Counties coachworks were just down the road from the boarding house and, periodically, chassis/engine units were delivered to the works from the manufacturer and they were just that, just a chassis, engine, transmission and wheels (no mudguards). They were driven to the works by a man sat upon a box tied to the chassis and wrapped in multiple overcoats and scarves even in the height of summer! I assume they wore goggles because there was no protection of any sort and it must have been grim in rainy or winter weather. The Health and Safety people would have a major fit if that happened today

Phil Jones

19/04/11 – 19:14

Several sources quote West Yorkshire, and Eastern Counties as being the only users of the so called “bible” indicator. There were detail differences between the “bibles” of the 2 operators, principally with regard to the illuminating “side lights” as used by ECOC. Of all the (superb) Tilling Group (or Ex Tilling after 1948) companies, ECOC was, perhaps the most typical. Flat terrain enabled the extensive use of 4LW as well as Gardner “5”s, and vehicle life was maximised. All in all, it was a fascinating fleet, and one which I, as a West Yorkshire fan, would love to read more about!

John Whitaker

11/03/12 – 07:54

The Ipswich Transport Museum has 4 (unrestored) ECOC/ ECW bodied saloons all ex ECOC. (1 x ADC, 1 x TS B9A, 1 x L5G, 1 x Dennis Ace) A collection of Ipswich area ‘tin bibles’ is on display in the museum………

Eric M

11/03/12 – 09:00

Nearly a year later I have just read Phil J’s memories of the bare chassis arriving at ECW from Bristol Commercial Vehicles. Seeing those brave men drive off from the Works in a convoy of 5/6 at a time was a regular sight when I was young and riding my three wheeler bike to wait by the Works entrance to see them set off.
Exactly as Phil says, there was no protection of any kind except a canvas sheet in front of the pedals and that bare box to sit on..gosh it must have been horrible to travel so far..about 160/170 miles on A/B roads back then and on a writhing, floppy chassis with springs set up to take the body weight. They did indeed wear goggles and most wore “Herbert Johnson” motorcycle crash helmets and a scarf over the mouth to combat flies.
On a cold Winter’s day it must have been absolute misery for them. Those big overcoats were always a golden fawn colour..until the front got plastered in dirt and oil when they became “two tone” in a rather unusual way!

Richard Leaman