On 10th February 1925 The Greyhound Motors Ltd introduced an express stage service between Bristol and London. It was apparently an immediate success despite the GWR railway between the two cities. In 1928 the company was acquired by the Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company later renamed the Bristol Omnibus Company but the Greyhound name remained in use until 1973 when it was replaced by the NBC corporate National image. A 1970 timetable recorded a total journey time of 4 and 3/4 hours for most services via Bath Chippenham Newbury and Reading which included a 15 minute comfort stop in Marlborough. The photo taken in 1972 in Marlborough shows one of the 1968 Bristol RELH6L coaches which were originally delivered in the red and cream livery and briefly repainted into white and magenta with a revised Greyhound motif.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton
10/09/15 – 07:24
Nice view, Keith. Thank you for posting. Did any of the ‘captive’ Bristol/ECW fleets have any coaches with toilets, as Standerwick and Midland Red did? The CAPTCHA code for this comment may well set hearts afluttering in Southdown territory: 5UUF.
Pete Davies
11/09/15 – 05:37
The T-style destination on Bristol Omnibus Company’s RE coaches gave a very distinctive touch to a classic body design. The greyhound motif on the number box on this example is a nice touch.
Don McKeown
11/09/15 – 05:39
Marlborough, was also an interchange point, between Associated Motorways Services and Royal Blue with Greyhound, they had a large shop with a cafe, waiting room, and booking office in the main square. It did not appear in the time table as such, but if you phoned ahead they would hold connecting service until you arrived, passengers would be informed this would be an extra [with 10 bob being spilt between drivers, by regular passengers who knew this to be so] cheaper than a taxi. Toilets on Greyhound coaches, no, only those stationed at St Marks, which sums them up, end of life, one season at St Marks then the scrapper, if they where ok they would have been converted into DPs for Bristol and Bath.
Mike
12/09/15 – 14:34
Thank you, Mike, for your comment about toilets on these vehicles. Any thoughts, please, from anyone about the facility on coaches in other “Tilling” fleets?
Pete Davies
13/09/15 – 05:51
Pete, I’m going to stick my neck out and say “no” . . . in so far as “proper” Tilling fleets were concerned. But, THC-wise, I’m sure SOL had some Bristol RELL/Alexander Y-types (which pre-dated the M-types) fitted with toilets for its Edinburgh-London overnight services. Hang-on! didn’t Western SMT fit toilets to some of its coaches (Alexander/Guy LUFs?) to counter Northern Roadways toilet-equipped coaches on the Glasgow-London route? Where’s my Northern Roadways book . .
Philip Rushworth
13/09/15 – 05:52
Bristol Greyhound RELH6/ECW coaches to the best of my knowledge never had the luxury of toilet facilities, relying on numerous breaks at the many stop-overs on the way. On checking most other Tilling fleets with long distance coaches, even United Autos did not have them on their long distance Newcastle-London service. In fact the only ECW bodied vehicles I know of that did would be the 30 Bristol VRL/LH6L megadeckers with Standerwick used on the non-stop routes from the North West to London. The Bristol RELH6Gs used on the Edinburgh and Glasgow routes all had toilet facilities but they had Alexander M series bodies.
Ron Mesure
14/09/15 – 06:15
Toilets. Northern Roadways Burlingham coaches had toilets and refreshments on board but the 50% relief coaches did not, the hostess with big teapots would transfer over to dispense drinks and snacks often done in laybys on the A1. Passengers would have to wait until coaches pulled into top up fuel tanks for toilets, other operators had toilets but not refreshments.
Mike
15/09/15 – 06:39
Thanks for your thoughts about toilets on the “Tilling Fleets” vehicles. Much as I thought.
Pete Davies
15/09/15 – 12:29
Couple small points, pre war SMT and Western operating Anglo Scottish services had fitted toilet compartments to their Gilford AEC and Leyland Coaches; as Did Scout and Standerwick on London- Blackpool. Northern Roadways’ plans to introduce toilet accomodation on its Seagulls led to SMT and Western reintroducing the feature, initially on Alexander bodied Regal IVs, SMT then used small engined Reliances, the later ones 36ft and Western sucessively Guy Arab UF (end an eight-cylinder Albion Prototype) Guy Arab LUF, Leyland Leopard L1 and PSU3 Leopard. Then came the RELHs (not RELLs) an the the initial M Types on REMH. No Tilling fleet had a toilet fitted coach from 1945-69 but its interesting to note that United’s RELHs only sat 43, compared to the standard 47 and 51 in the Midland General semi-coaches. United were of course the only other customer than Western and Eastern for the REMH6G, taking batches between 1971 and 1973 with C49F Plaxton bodies. In NBC days Tilling had some RELH Plaxtons with toilets.
Stephen Allcroft
01/11/19 – 13:46
Much has been said (including by me!) of the sturdiness of Bristol/ECW products, but I recall a story I heard about the earliest batch of RELH6G’s delivered to United Counties (250 et seq.). It is alleged that one of them was reversing out of the strange outdoor layover bay next to the entrance to Northampton’s Derngate bus station when a mini ran into the rear overhang doing considerable structural damage! This would have been about 1970 and I recall seeing the early examples running around after that with a heavily plated repair along the waistrail behind the rear wheel. Can anyone shed any light on this? I have Duncan Roberts’ ‘Bristol RE 40 Years of Service’ but I don’t think this episode gets a mention in his excellent tome.
Brutonian Bus Company 1969 Bristol RESL6G East Lancs B47F
Bruton is a settlement on the River Brue. It is in Somerset, between Frome and Yeovil. STC 928G is a Bristol RESL6G, new to Accrington Corporation Transport in 1969. It has East Lancs B47F body and passed to Brutonian in 1982. The fleet number and Accrington livery were so near Brutonian’s requirements that neither was changed. The operator became part of the Cawlett Group and is now part of First. We see the bus parked in New Canal, Salisbury, on 17 April 1984, having come in on a market service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
19/02/17 – 16:22
4 vehicles were acquired by Brutonian in 1982 from Hyndburn as successor to Accrington CTD. The vehicles were reliable and popular and the livery was retained and looked attractive as can be seen from Pete’s photo in Salisbury. None were ever repainted and by 1987 the livery had deteriorated as can be seen from the attached taken in Dorchester.
Keith and Keith, Your photos suggest that this vehicle was on its way to a breaker, rather than in service. Given what became of Brutonian, one might wonder if it’s a ‘practice’ for the Barbie livery!
Pete Davies
20/02/17 – 13:26
Perhaps we should have a section for the worst presented buses- “battered buses”? Even on the original photo, you can see the untreated deterioration around the “peak” and front wheel arch. The grille was starting to go on the first pic, and then… Brutal!
Joe
21/02/17 – 07:06
How could a vehicle so neglected be allowed to operate? What about the vehicle examiners and the traffic commissioners? I don’t think I have ever seen a bus operating in such a sad state, and the final shot was hopefully before scrapping – it would have been a mercy killing. Brutonian, with the emphasis on the ‘brute’. Thank goodness for operators like Safeguard at Guildford.
David Wragg
21/02/17 – 16:15
David, I agree with what you say about the appearance, but the condition of the paintwork is not a criteria for a vehicle test. However, the body is, so presumably it must have been up to standard or it would not have been granted a C.O.F. There is of course the reverse of the coin that a coat of paint hides a multitude of sins
Ronnie Hoye
21/02/17 – 16:16
To be fair – maybe – things were different then in particular the powers that be were more concerned with de-regulation and local authorities had to ensure non-commercial services would continue. The owner of Brutonian had agreed to sell to a local businessman whose interests included a travel agency and the transfer was delayed until de-reg ie end of October 1986. As well as existing routes and new commercial ones , the new company had gained additional tenders – not least the trunk route 6 between Sherborne and Dorchester. Despite the poor external appearances , the REs were apparently mechanically sound and reliable and the additional work probably extended their lives. Unfortunately the 6 passed County Hall and comments were apparently made therein !! No 28 was withdrawn soon after the photo was taken and continued concern saw the tender itself subsequently transferred the following year to another local operator.
Attached is another photo taken in May 1985 in Castle Cary on the Saturday evening Bingo service and is probably how these fine vehicles should be remembered. A new book on Brutonian concentrating on the routes and operations is to be published soon through the Omnibus Society.
Keith Newton
22/02/17 – 07:11
I think ‘the ugly face of de-regulation’ is a term that sums up this situation. A similar thing happened in the North West where the once proud Yelloway having been asset stripped by new owners secured a tendered service into Manchester formerly run by the PTE. They used very unsavoury looking cast-off Bristol VRT/ECW vehicles in worn out ex NBC liveries with no fleetnames and paper stickers in the windscreens as a destination display. It was a disgrace. Fortunately the powers that be stepped in fairly quickly and terminated the arrangement with the service being re-tendered. Not the British bus industry’s finest hour.
Philip Halstead
22/02/17 – 07:12
I have read that Brutonian only repainted vehicles when they were in for other maintenance, resulting in the most unreliable ones being repainted first and vice versa. So looking at the state of this one, Keith’s comment about its mechanical soundness rings true!
Peter Williamson
27/02/17 – 07:49
Chris Knubley the owner of Brutonian never really had much money. There was an injection of money into the business in 79 when he bought his first RE (GAX 5C – a great bus!) and CYA 181J (survices) along with WYD 928H from H&C, the latter was never painted. Generally the most reliable buses were painted 217 UYC and 497 ALH for example, while others ran in a range of former operators colours 8087 TE and TET 166, for example. Not creating consistency was something he had done from 1972! There was clearly something wrong with the last paint job done by Hyndburn on MTJ 926/927G and STC 928/928G. Alternatively the guy who replaced me washing them down from Sep 82 was using the pressure washer incorrectly, or it had been inadvertently fitted with the sandblasting nozzle! 27 became the donor to the others although lasted until a few years ago along with 26 and 29 in Shobdon before final scrapping. 28, in the picture, I understand was in fact the most reliable and went onto be repainted and see further service with Metrowest (the only one of the four). It was indeed different times…I now own the only bus to carry the Brutonian colours which is OVL494, an identical bus to Brutonian’s OVL 495, which was scrapped after an attempt to convert it to a half cab. All other survivors are in original operator colours or in CYA 181J’s case, awaiting restoration.
Paul Welling
08/10/17 – 08:04
Yes deregulation did the bus industry no favours and we are still seeing the repercussions over 30 years later. Fishwick’s and Pennine spring to mind.
North Western Road Car 1968 Bristol RESL6G Marshall B45F
In its final years, North Western chose the Bristol RE as its standard single deck bus chassis, initially selecting the shorter RESL6G version in 1968 before turning to the longer RELL6G variety from 1969 onwards. The RESL6G saloons numbered forty in total and all came with Marshall bodywork, the first fifteen, Nos 270-284, KJA 270-284F, arriving in January 1968 as B45F. However, Nos 285-309, KJA 285-289F, KJA 290- 309G delivered from July 1968 onwards, had the reduced capacity of B43F. On 1st January 1969 SELNEC PTE was formed, and much of the North Western stage carriage network lay within the designated SELNEC area. After lengthy negotiations, the National Bus Company conceded, and the hatchet finally fell upon North Western in January 1972 when its bus fleet was dismembered, leaving NWRCC as simply a coach operator. Most of the RESL/Marshall buses, including No 282 shown above, passed to SELNEC, but Nos 302 -309 were transferred to Crosville. I am sure that our Lancastrian contributors will be able to tell me the Manchester location of the photograph which was taken in June 1970. One final question – did these buses have Gardner LW or LX engines?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
18/11/18 – 10:41
This is unmistakably in St. Peter’s Square in Manchester and would have to be a tram to make such a manoeuvre now! 282 was one of the batch allocated to Oldham depot and was new in a livery that also had cream window surrounds and, distinctively, cream inside the peaks of the domes as can be seen on sister 281 here: https://davidbeilby Although 281 survived long enough to get the SELNEC Cheshire fleetname as seen in the linked photo, 282 was repainted earlier as I have a picture of it in October 1970 in the above colour scheme. In your photo it seems to be newly-painted. As it’s showing “PRIVATE” it doesn’t give much clue as to why it would be there and it may well be working from Manchester to Oldham depots after having been borrowed. It is also just possible, if it is a morning photograph, that it is returning from working the solitary morning peak journey from Mottram to Manchester Lower Mosley Street that was worked by Oldham – it worked out of service from Manchester back to Oldham depot.
David Beilby
[Administrator note: The link to David’s site, in the above message, is no longer current. If you read this David, please let me know the updated address and I will update this page. Thanks, Nigel (admin)]
20/11/18 – 09:11
It’s not early morning, David. At that point in my life I lived in Farnborough, Hampshire. I would catch an early train from London to undertake my Manchester transport jaunts, so it would be around midday or early afternoon.
Roger Cox
24/11/18 – 06:21
Well, at long last the NWRCC finally got its Bristols once again after more than 20 years. The Central Library in the background of the photo looks far more impressive nowadays now it has been cleaned of all the grime that had accumulated prior to the Clean Air Act. I still have fond memories of the Library: there were many Saturday afternoons I would spend valuable learning time reading Buses Illustrated and Modern Tramway.
David Revis
24/11/18 – 09:56
North Western received its last Bristols, ordered prior to the effect of the nationalisation of Bristol, in late 1950 these being L5Gs 311-32 EDB 311-320 with Weymann B35R bodies. The RESL6Gs were delivered from January 1968, thus the wait for new Bristols was just 17 years, not over 20. Central Library was cleaned in 1971.
Phil Blinkhorn
25/11/18 – 06:51
The photo was taken in June 1970 and the bus looks freshly repainted. Could that explain why it is where it is? Would it have been repainted in Manchester?
Peter Williamson
15/04/19 – 07:13
To answer the question on engines, they had Gardner 6HLX engines. I have close personal experience of this, being the owner of the surviving member of the batch 299! For obvious reasons I’ve collected a lot of photos of this batch, and I’ve found that quite a few were repainted from the “more cream” style to the one we see here when quite young. My speculation (no more than that) is that the Marshall paint job wasn’t especially good, these bodies being built down to a price, and North Western gave them a repaint in the by-then current style when only about three years old. To answer Peter Williamson’s question, it’s almost certain that it would have been repainted at the company‘s Works at Charles Street in Stockport and could – conceivably – have been photographed on its way back to Oldham from the repaint.
Paul Williams
16/04/19 – 09:00
Travelling from Charles St to Oldham via St Peter’s Sq is a long way round. In 1970 the shortest route would have been Charles St-Bredbury-Denton-Ashton-Oldham. Roger says the photo was taken mid day or early afternoon. There are a number of possibilities. David Beilby’s first suggestion; as we can’t determine the driver, some sort of engineer’s run though why go into Manchester?; if this was a Saturday (the lights are on in the library, so not a Sunday), returning from a private hire where the vehicle is not required for a return run, such as taking people from the Oldham area to an event at the close by Free Trade Hall that runs until late evening or returning from delivering people who have been visiting the Oldham area to wherever. Again, it could have run into Manchester as a duplicate on a trans Pennine service and was not required beyond Lower Mosley St or on the return. We’ll never know
Phil Blinkhorn
26/04/19 – 09:44
My own theory on why the bus is in Manchester is that having come out of the paintshop the driver may have been asked to deliver some urgent mail to Lower Mosley Street. It was common practice to send mail on service buses between depots. Oldham Depot only had two AM journeys that returned private back to Oldham. The first was a mentioned by David Beilby. The number 6 duplicate from Mottram. The other journey worked the service 503 from Adswood into the City. Prior to this journey it worked a journey from Ashton-under-Lyne to Hazel Grove (Mirrlees Works). Just a thought.
Keith Hampton
27/04/19 – 13:24
My father was one of the 116 workers entitled to use this service from the newly closed Ashton National Works to Mirrlees. At least in the early days this must have required 2 buses, perhaps one for works and a later one for offices. I presume the service ended at some point after most of the entitled moved or bought cars. Do you know how the return journey late afternoon was organised?
Tony Johnson
28/04/19 – 08:06
Thanks for explaining the origins of this Mirrlees works service. It’s pretty obvious now you mention it but not something I had thought about too much before. There were two morning journeys from the information I have (which I think is the same that Keith Hampton has). It seems logical that there was an afternoon return service but this does not appear in the Oldham depot schedules, so one concludes it was worked by someone else. Either another North Western depot or another operator (jointly).
David Beilby
03/05/19 – 07:11
Tony Johnson mentions that at least 2 vehicles must have been required for this service. I can confirm that this was the case, and both journeys were worked by Oldham Garage. According to my list of Oldham duties:- One Double Decker (Crew duty 23) departed Ashton Bus Station at 07:05, and a Single Decker (OMO duty 29) at 07:50. On arrival at Mirrlees both buses then operated from Adswood to Chorlton Street. Would it have been the case, do you think, that these 2 Adswood journeys would have operated to Lower Mosley Street before the closure of LMS? If that was the case then 282 was possibly heading back to Oldham after completing it work. There is no mention of PM journeys from Mirrlees in the Oldham duties.
Stephen Howarth
04/05/19 – 06:31
Stephen, the use of LMS is a distinct possibility.
Phil Blinkhorn
04/05/19 – 06:32
Unfortunately, Stephen, Roger has already pointed out that he would not have been in Manchester early enough for that to be the case. I think that there were afternoon journeys but not worked by Oldham. I have a photograph of 932 on this service in April 1972 and that wasn’t an Oldham car at the time, but I don’t know to which depot it was allocated. It’s more likely to be an afternoon shot but I don’t actually know.
Western National Omnibus Co Ltd 1967 Bedford VAM 5 ECW B45F
The last Bristol MW’s entered service in May 1967, and the first LH’s in June 1968. In the interim, Western National placed in service a batch of twelve Bedford VAM 5 with Eastern Coachworks bus bodywork. These were numbered 701-712 (KDV 131 -142F). The body design was clearly based on the standard design which had been produced in large numbers for the Bristol MW model, but with a more modern front end grafted onto it. The VAM 5 model had the small Bedford 330 cu in engine and a four speed gearbox. The batch led a full service life of at least twelve years; Latterly the last six of the batch were allocated to Newquay Depot, and could regularly be found working the scenic and hilly route 573 from Newquay to St. Columb Minor, which followed the coast for a few miles before turning inland. Here we see one of the batch negotiating a hairpin bend just west of Watergate bay. West Yorkshire also had four Bedford VAM with this style of ECW body, but the West Yorkshire examples were type VAM 14, with the Leyland 400 engine and a five speed gearbox. The West Yorkshire batch had a very short operational life. I believe that Eastern Counties also had some of these interesting vehicles.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
22/10/14 – 18:20
Eastern Counties did have some of these ECW bodied Bedfords one was sold to Primrose Valley of Hunmanby. I rode on it from Filey to Reighton Gap and I have to say never had I been on a more vibration prone vehicle. Although having now had a ride on a preserved Bristol SC!
Chris Hough
23/10/14 – 07:04
I always considered these to be fascinating and businesslike vehicles, combining the classic “no nonsense” ECW lines with a most worthy lightweight chassis. I’ve always had a very soft spot for Bedford “no nonsense” honest and well performing vehicles, and if any vibration was felt look on the bright side Chris – therapeutic vibro massage included free !!
Chris Youhill
24/10/14 – 07:28
I remember encountering these beasts at Dartmouth in the early ’70s. With the benefit of hindsight (as well as driving later examples) I would hazard the opinion that the zenith of Bedford’s existence was with their petrol models. With due deference to Chris, I would say that Bedford diesels were a poor substitute and my operator friend concurs that the VAM5s he operated with Eastern Scottish were a nightmare and grossly underpowered. Likewise, Ribble got rid of its small number of VAM5s after an indecently short time. While the 466 and 500 diesels were a great improvement, there is a general consensus that the VAL14 and VAM14 (Leyland O400) were far better than the VAL70 and VAM70 (Bedford 466). Which makes the short operational lives of West Yorkshire’s VAM14s all the more strange.
David Oldfield
24/10/14 – 18:23
I don’t remember these when growing up in Taunton but I’ve asked for more information from Colin Billington who says “The early ones (700-703) were allocated to Plymouth often passing through Kingsbridge on the 93 route. Don has the numbering wrong, They were 700-711 (KDV 130-141F) not 701-12. 712 was a LH. Noisy things with the engine next to the driver”
Ken Jones
04/03/16 – 06:45
Don is correct. ECOC had four VAMs with ECW bodies: 2 X Bedford engines and 2 X Leyland engines! SB663 (NAH 663F), with Leyland engine, is seen leaving Norwich Thorpe Railway Station on Sunday May 12, 1968 when it was one of at least 10 new shiny ECOC vehicles (not one displaying any side adverts) taking passengers from the Flying Scotsman excursion on a variety of tours. As delivered, the driver access to the cab was by squeezing between the partial screen behind the driver’s seat and the offside body side. I had them rebuilt so you walked over a more substantial engine cover incorporating the ticket machine mounting. The point to comparing the two engines was a bit academic as NBC bought no more bus versions!
Geoff Pullin
18/10/16 – 07:53
NAH 661/2F had Bedford 330 engines and were VAM5. NAH 663/4F had Leyland 400 engines and were VAM14.
Steve Paine
22/05/21 – 06:37
I help to look after a Leyland 400 powered Bedford VAM in New Zealand. It is reliable but seems quite under-powered. It is certainly quite loud from the drivers seat, and enough vibration to keep things interesting. Ours has a high speed diff but a conventional (not overdrive) gearbox. The previous comments about these buses is really interesting, thank you.
Eastern Counties Omnibus Co Ltd 1967 Bristol RESL 6HLX ECW B46F
There are several non-ECW bodied RE buses featured on this site but few if any of the first Tilling Group RESL standard bus. This is RS660 (KVF 660E), the last of a batch of 14, which I believe was supplied to meet an outstanding order for MWs. The fact that they had 46 seats, compared to the maximum of 45 to date, didn’t prevent them being accepted immediately for one man operation, several based at the many outstations for which the company was famous. Alongside are FLF359 (ONG 359F) and SB664 (NAH 664F). A large number of recent deliveries, which the advert fixers had yet to purloin, were assembled in the forecourt of Thorpe Station, Norwich on Sunday, May 12, 1968 to meet an excursion train hauled by the Flying Scotsman. There were several tour options for passengers around the city and county before the return journey.
This period saw Eastern Counties explode from its long 4 and 5 cylinder era into that of the 6LX and 6HLX! The FLF found its way to Western SMT a couple of years later in the great FLF for VRT swop between National Bus Company and the Scottish Bus Group. The Bedford with ECW bus body was one of a batch of four, two with Bedford engines and this and SB663 (already shown on the same day in a Bedford VAM string in OBP) had Leyland engines.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
23/12/19 – 06:45
I believe that Eastern Counties’ next batch of RE buses were RELLs, and these were supplied with 6HLW engines, which were quickly swapped with the 6HLX engines from the RESLs.
Nigel Frampton
23/12/19 – 06:47
We had two Bristol RS’s at Cambridge. One of them was almost permanently on route 428 Cambridge station to Bedford. It was a long duty….two journeys….and was the only week on the rota that had two rest days for that reason. I worked it for a week when the regular driver was on holiday and enjoyed it immensely. The RS’s were super to drive…fast and powerful, and although they were rear engined, they had a very precise manual gear change, and a long gear lever. I also recall that they had a high pitched whine at speed from the transmission. The other RS was usually on the 113 Cambridge to Haverhill and Kedington services, so they could inter change for maintenance and repairs. The RS’s were a vast improvement on the ordinary Bristol MW’s.
Norman Long
24/12/19 – 07:37
Nigel, I don’t think this is true. The first RELLs were in service in June 1968 (the month after the above photo) and I’m sure they had 6HLX engines as well. Although the company was adept at physically changing types of engine after years of downsizing double decks to 5 cylinders and much later installing a Gardner into a Leyland National, the change to 6HLX from 5HLW for buses was the policy introduced by the new General Manager who had arrived from Eastern National. In the 1960s, it was company policy to ‘fairly’ share new vehicles across the whole vast area, so, unlike today, sadly the advantages of better vehicles and performance didn’t reflect into timetables!
Geoff Pullin
24/12/19 – 10:05
The FLF would have had a 6LX engine also, although retaining a manual gearbox. All EC’s previous batches of FLFs having 6LWs.The former BCV test vehicle which they acquired in 1967 may have had a Bristol BVW initially.
Brian Crowther
25/12/19 – 05:52
Geoff, I must admit that I cannot remember exactly where I read about the engine swap – I think that it was in “Buses” magazine. However, the page on Rob Sly’s website for KVF 658E (the preserved survivor from this batch of RESLs) says that the engine was swapped during 1969. //bcv.robsly.com/kvf658e.html Other online sources say that it now has a 6HLX, so presumably it was changed again (or never changed at all!)
Nigel Frampton
25/12/19 – 05:53
Think the RESL at Carlton Colville has a 6HLW.
Roger Burdett
26/12/19 – 06:15
Nigel is correct, the 14 RESL’s 647 to 660 were delivered with 6HLX engines which were later replaced with 6HLW’s from RELL’s but without checking back I can’t confirm which RELL’s were delivered with 6HLW’s. I thought they may have been replaced with a later batch but as the first 14 RELL’s RL665 to 678 all had PPW registrations it’s possible that they were the donors.
Mark Ellis
28/12/19 – 06:18
Is the Bedford missing it’s front grille? It seems we are looking directly at the radiator without anything covering it.
Chris Barker
28/12/19 – 09:20
Looking at various photos of the four Bedfords in the batch SB661-664 (NAH 661-664F), the grille format appears the same on them all even after sale to other operators. As Chris B says it does look very much like the grille is missing. Looking at photographs of the examples operated by West Yorkshire (4) and Western National (12), also new in 1967, all those seem to have more obvious grilles.
David Slater
28/12/19 – 15:10
This photo, taken on the same occasion, shows SB663 is fitted with a manually adjusted radiator blind in the traditional Bristol on-radiator fashion.
I don’t remember if this was ECW standard or an ECOC special.
In the close-up shot it would appear that the grille on the VAM has been set back from the front panel to allow for the fitting of a radiator blind. Whether this was fitted “in build” by ECW at Lowestoft, or done by Eastern Counties themselves I’ll leave it to the ECOC experts.
Brendan Smith
18/02/20 – 07:30
The RELLs with 6HLW units were RL703-7 and 710-8 from the 1969 order, the engines being exchanged at ECOC before the chassis headed to ECW for bodying. KVF 658E regained a 6HLX after entering preservation. To tidy up, test rig FLF LAH 448E was ECOC’s only Bristol-engined example and was converted to 6LW in 1971. I’ve long wondered why the six FLs delivered in 1962/63 had BVWs while the double-deck fleet was entirely Gardner by then. Apart from one which was withdrawn early in 1976, the others again all received 6LWs.
United Automobile Services 1967 Bristol RELH6G ECW C43F
United had a small Garage at Pickering where the forecourt doubled up as a Bus Station. Here 4343 (originally RE43) is loading for a trip along the A170 seventeen miles to Scarborough. I expect this vehicle retained its manual gearbox which I would think could be tricky on a Stage Service. It is a good looking bus/coach – shame about the livery!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
12/05/20 – 06:48
Are you sure it had the manual gearbox? Crosville’s E registered RELH6Gs had semi automatic boxes. Even in bus livery, these coaches looked beautiful!
Don McKeown
13/05/20 – 07:03
Probably was semi automatic. West Yorkshire’s E registered RELH were as well. As regards manual boxes I remember some West Yorkshire drivers struggling with earlier B, C, and D registered RELL buses.
Stephen Clough
14/05/20 – 06:52
According to United Automobile Services Part Two by messrs. Townsin, Groves and Banks (Venture Publications), this batch RE41-65 were the first coaches to be delivered with semi-automatic gearboxes.
John Gibson
16/05/20 – 06:33
It might be 17 miles from Pickering to Scarborough, but three times a day (twice on Sundays) the route began in Ripon, via Thirsk, Ampleforth and Helmsley to Pickering and Scarborough, distance of some 60+ miles, some of it on minor roads. In 1976 this took around three and a half hour end to end. The route number groups with other Ripon services, but how it was crewed is a mystery to me. I guess Ripon crews were relieved for a break at Pickering, as two of the through journeys had only five minutes turn round at Scarborough. I would be very interested to know more about the operation of the 128.
Andy Buckland
17/05/20 – 06:37
Andy’s comment reminded me that in the James Herriot book “Vets might fly” James bunked off from his RAF training in Scarborough one Sunday afternoon and travelled by bus to “Darrowby” (which we now know to be Thirsk) to see his pregnant wife, Helen. He had less than an hour before he had to catch the return bus – and as I recall it, his absence without leave was never detected! I assume that this escapade, like many others, was founded in real life.
Stephen Ford
18/05/20 – 06:34
Stephen, by 1976, the date of my timetable, this would not be possible on a Sunday, with just two through journeys each way. You had to leave Scarborough at 10:45 to reach Thirsk by 13:35, returning at 18:10. Now, if in earlier years there had been a third return, as during the week, then 12:45 from Scarborough, arrive Thirsk 15:40, return at 18:27 was possible. Add a bit of poetic licence and we perhaps have the basis for the story.
Andy Buckland
20/05/20 – 07:18
I have been looking at the summer timetable for 1957, and it shows that from 7th July to 14th September, there were three journeys each way between Scarborough and Ripon on Sundays. If he left Scarborough at 10.45, he would reach Thirsk at 1.40 p.m. He could then leave Thirsk at 3.50 p.m. arriving back at Scarborough at 6.40 p.m. So yes, this journey would have been feasible as long as it was made at the height of the summer.
John Gibson
20/05/20 – 07:19
I travelled on service 128 from Helmsley to Ripon in 1976 (MWs all the way from Middlesbrough to Harrogate!!). If memory isn’t playing tricks, we had to change buses at Sproxton, west of Helmsley, and the respective buses then returned home. I can’t remember if the change was advertised in the timetable. A trip form Ross-on-Wye to Abergavenny by Red and White in 1970 (MWs again) certainly involved a change at Broad Oak even though the timetable showed the buses working through.
Phil Drake
21/05/20 – 06:56
And there we have the answer, Phil! Certainly there is no reference to a change of vehicle at Sproxton, indeed it does not even merit entry in the timetable, but if you look at the times for Helmsley and Ampleforth, then buses would cross roughly where Sproxton is. What makes it strange is that Sproxton is only a few minutes west of Helmsley, where some journeys stood time and interchange facilities are much better. Was there perhaps some unwritten rule that Helmsley to Scarborough was dedicated to Pickering/Scarborough drivers and Ripon was “another company”.
Andy Buckland
21/05/20 – 06:56
Definitely semi-auto, we had 4344 at Darlington for a while, not the fastest, comfortable for both driver and passengers it did what it was supposed to do. I used to call it the old mans bus.
John Wake
31/08/20 – 06:27
Regarding the operation of the Ripon to Scarborough service, I lived in Ripon in the late 1960s, and at that time the buses definitely worked through on the whole route, but the drivers did not. When opposing vehicles met, usually in the middle of nowhere, they stopped and the drivers changed over, returning whence they had come from. I presume that with three services each way on weekdays, a Scarborough based vehicle would spend alternate nights at Ripon garage, and vice versa. Obvious the drivers would get back home at the end of their shifts.
Chris Appleby
03/09/20 – 06:18
Where the garage was may be seen here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ It would appear that the property was modified to become the carpet showroom it is in the photograph. I have a snapshot photograph I took on Sunday 23 July 1972 which has four single deckers parked within. //www.ipernity.com/
Crosville – Bristol RESL6G – OFM 2E – ERG 2 Crosville Motor Services Ltd 1967 Bristol RESL6G ECW DP42F
Crosville was the first to operate the then latest version of the Bristol RESL with shortened wheelbase and extended front overhang giving a wider entrance door arrangement. These were also the first with this design of ECW body characterised by the shallow flat windscreens. Crosville put this batch of six into service in July 1967 on the long Rail Replacement service D94 between Wrexham and Barmouth. This served a sparsely populated area with Llangollen, Corwen, Bala and Dolgellau as the intermediate towns of any size. These six were synonymous with this route for many years but here in 1977 is ERG 2 in NBC days crossing the Cambrian Coast Railway line at Fairbourne on the S28 Tywyn to Dolgellau route. The NBC “Local Coach” version of the leaf green livery with white upperworks looks pretty smart.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
10/07/20 – 06:14
I think these were the only dual purpose RESLs in the THC group of companies, although Midland General famously had two RESHs. Some of these vehicles were used elsewhere when brand new; ERG 2 was new to Llandudno Junction, and ERG 3 and 4 were at Caernarfon, although they soon migrated to the D94. Around 1974, A longer example, ERG 272 was transferred to Dolgellau Depot for use on the D94, and ERG2 was then used on other services from Dolgellau as shown here. When new, these vehicles were painted cream with a green waistband, and they looked superb in that livery. ERG 3 is magnificently preserved in that livery.
Don McKeown
10/07/20 – 06:16
As far as the shorter length RE was concerned, the RESL seems to have been the almost universal choice for bus work but I wonder about it’s merits for dual purpose use, particularly if some of the front seats faced sideways. However, Crosville seemed to like them and as Ian says, used them on some long services although I’m not too sure about the prospect of sitting rather low down or sideways at the front for perhaps a couple of hours or so. Midland General had a couple of short REs with this type of body but on the RESH chassis, with 43 dual purpose seats, all facing forward. Surprisingly, I believe they were the only ones bodied by ECW.
Chris Barker
16/07/20 – 10:16
United used the long version of the dual purpose RE on the five and a half hour 505 Newcastle to Edinburgh via Berwick service – not to my mind the most suitable of vehicles, and the seats were not especially comfortable. The route was jointly operated by Eastern Scottish who used Leyland Leopards and AEC Reliances with Alexander Y Type coach bodies. These were much more comfortable to ride on and seemed better suited to the route, although with the disadvantage of high entrance steps. The RELLs would be replaced after a few years by dual purpose RELHs with all forward facing seats and they in turn were replaced by downgraded RELH coaches, originally used on the Newcastle to London service. They would I suppose have been about ten years old then, but were still superb vehicle to travel on, however by that time, the service was being operated in two parts with passengers required to change vehicles at Berwick.
Eastern Scottish 1966 Bristol RELH6G Alexander C38F
Seen on layover in London are three of the Alexander C38F bodied Bristol RELH6G coaches operated by Eastern Scottish from a batch totalling 33 vehicles of the type delivered in 1966. These toilet equipped coaches brought a new level of refinement to the lengthy journey between the Capital and Caledonia for several years. In this picture, none of the vehicles is carrying the “Bristol RE” nameplate on the radiator grille which they certainly wore at another time in their lives.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
11/07/22 – 06:02
Just to clarify, the vehicles from left to right are EWS 166D, EWS 193D and EWS 190D, with matching fleet numbers XA166/193/190 A.
Roger Cox
11/07/22 – 06:03
I could be wrong on this ‘I frequently am’ but I’m pretty sure that the services to Scotland, i.e. Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness, were all overnight only. Unlike the United Tyne Tees Thames, which was twice a day. 8am and pm if memory serves.
Ronnie Hoye
12/07/22 – 05:43
Eastern Scottish did operate daytime services between London and Edinburgh, per my photo herewith.
Richard Slater
13/07/22 – 06:15
Thanks for that, Richard. I did say that I was frequently wrong. The location looks to be the start of the Tyne Bridge, heading north towards Newcastle. The bus facing us, is probably a Gateshead & District Alexander ‘A’ type bodied Leyland Atlantean, and the one to the left is a Newcastle Corporation, or possibly by that time a PTA turning to go towards Gateshead Station. Bit hard to tell, but my guess would be a P/R bodied MkV AEC Regent.
Ronnie Hoye
13/07/22 – 06:16
I think you’ll find that you are both correct. Eastern Scottish called the daytime services “Tours” – as they took 2/3 days to do the journey with overnight stops.
David Oldfield
14/07/22 – 06:01
The Summer 1969 ABC Bus and coach guide shows conventional daytime journeys on both routes (Edinburgh and Glasgow), which completed the journeys within the same day. As far as I know, the 2/3 day tours were only operated by Eastern Scottish. Departure was at 08:00 from both ends, on both routes.
Nigel Frampton
15/07/22 – 06:05
Memory tells me that, in my student days in Birmingham, the Standerwicks would move out of the fast lane only for blue lights and the Scottish coaches, and I think they were usually Western, rather than Eastern, on the M6.
Pete Davies
16/07/22 – 06:24
Speaking as a retired LGV Instructor, Pete, I can tell you quite categorically that there is no such thing as the ‘Fast Lane’ on UK Motorways. You drive on the left, unless overtaking
Ronnie Hoye
17/07/22 – 06:29
Ronnie: Unfortunately regardless of how many times broadcasters have been told by me and others to stop using “Fast Lane” in traffic reports they will persist and thus those like Pete perpetuate it in everyday usage. I remember once climbing the M6 southbound from Penrith towards Shap Summit and there were 3 coaches from different companies (Well different liveries anyway) having a 3 mile drag race up the gradient.
OBP has yet to include a picture of a post war Bristol K type operating in the Bristol fleet, so here is one. This shows KSW6B, SHW 409, No. C8239, which was supplied in 1954 to the then Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company, which was renamed Bristol Omnibus in May 1957. This bus seems to have spent its entire operating career in Bristol city until withdrawal in May 1971 when it went to the dealer Norths of Sherburn-in-Elmet for scrap. In the picture, taken in July 1970, less than a year before withdrawal, the driver has opened his cab door whilst the vehicle is in motion. One can only conjecture why he has done so.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
05/09/22 – 07:08
Oh joy! The standard Bristol city bus for years, including a final sanction in 1957. The Bristol engine was specified for most of the city fleet, perhaps to keep the City Council, part owners, on side with a made-here product. Even when the country fleet were taking KSWs with doors and heaters, the city didn’t get the luxury of heaters! This photo looks to be taken of the bus turning from the Centre into Baldwin Street with Thorntons chocolate shop on the corner of Clare Street in the background. I can only think the door flew open after a change-over in the Centre and had not caught properly, but that seems unlikely! The bus would have had the Bristol City arms as the fleet name when delivered, followed by the upper case BRISTOL before coming to the historic Bristol scroll. The destination box would have been single piece 18 inch deep from new in which the roller destination blinds came in quick-change cassettes, to keep the blinds reasonably short containing only destinations for a small group of routes. I always thought that the choice of Bristol Omnibus Company was a very poor marketing name. Nobody even then spoke about omnibuses and having BRISTOL on the side when operating in and out of Cheltenham, Hereford, Swindon et al seemed very inappropriate! At least the scroll had a bit of style about it.
Geoff Pullin
08/09/22 – 06:26
Two things spring to mind. 1970, so now well into the NBC Era, but thankfully not in NBC Corporate livery. With that in mind, immaculately presented for a vehicle that was less than a year away from withdrawal.
Ronnie Hoye
09/09/22 – 05:44
Ronnie – the NBC corporate liveries, poppy red, leaf green and white, were introduced during 1972.
West Riding Automobile 1966 Daimler Roadliner Plaxton B50F
I always thought the single deck version of the “Fleetline” was called a “Freeline” but it appears I was wrong, it was called a “Roadliner”. It as come to light whilst researching this bus that the “Roadliner” was not the most reliable chassis in fact it was quite the opposite. That I find strange as the “Fleetline” the double deck chassis was very reliable if you know what the problem was please leave a comment? Another interesting thing about this bus is that the body was built by Plaxton who were better known at that time for coach bodies rather than bus bodies although having looked at there website today they do four very impressive bus bodies at the moment.
The Roadliner was a different beast to the Fleetline, it was a 36 foot long, and for it’s time, a low floor chassis, incorporating air or metalistic toggle link suspension. In the days before one man operation of double deckers was permissible, the high seating capacity Roadliner like it’s contemporaries the AEC Swift, Leyland Panther, and Bristol RE, was after a piece of the action. The Bristol RE proved to be the only reliable model of the bunch, enjoying large orders and long service lives. The Roadliner sadly proved to be just about the worst, due largely to it’s weird and unreliable Cummins V6-200 engine. Later models were instead equipped with the Perkins V8 engine, but it seems the damage had already been done, with braking and suspension problems meantime manifesting themselves. West Riding really didn’t need these problems, with their hands already full of the woes presented by their large fleet of Guy Wulfrunians. PMT Ltd (Potteries Motor Traction Ltd) however got their hands burnt the worst as the biggest operator of Roadliners, with 62 buses and 6 coaches (?). Despite strenuous efforts to keep their Roadliners on the road, by 1970 PMT’s problems were such that they finally threw in the towel, and withdrawals started soon after. Their last left the fleet in 1976.
Keith Jackson
You’re right about PMT’s 6 Roadliner coaches. They were fleet nos. C1097-C1099 (KVT 197-199E) and C1100-C1102 (PVT 100-102F). The first three had Plaxton bodies and the last three Duple. All the early PMT Roadliners had Cummins engines. The Perkins alternative was trialled in the rebuilt PMT prototype S1000 (6000 EH) and then the last 10 examples (built in 1968; 130-139 (WEH 130-139G)) also had the Perkins unit. I remember going round the PMT depots on my bike in about 1975 and seeing huge quantities of Roadliners dumped around the back of Cheadle depot prior to disposal. There weren’t any Roadliners at any other depot so I suppose this was either the last depot to operate them or it was a convenient place to collect them. As you say, long before then the writing had been on the wall for the Roadliner and PMT tried several different alternatives; a batch of 21 Fleetline single decks in 1970 with unusual Alexander ‘W’ type bodies was followed by several batches of Bristol REs. Even these didn’t survive long, however, as the Leyland National revolution gathered pace.
Mel Harwood
The plus points with the 9.6 litre Cummins VIM V6 200 engine were its compactness and potential to deliver a hitherto un-heard of 192 bhp (hence the 200). Tragically, the engine failed to live up to its promise, maybe because it was fundamentally a marine unit designed for totally different working cycles. Result? Mechanical mayhem. By the time the slightly less-powerful V8 unit from Perkins was offered, the Roadliner’s reputation was irretrievably damaged. Sad, really, because in other respects, it wasn’t a bad vehicle.
Chris Hebbron
Thank you for your comment on the Roadliner I did not know that the Cummins engine was based on a marine engine no wonder it was a disaster. When you think about it a marine engine is set at a steady rev rate and stays there for hours which couldn’t be more opposite to a bus engine.
Peter
Early diesel locos in the UK were powered by modified versions of marine engines and seemed to do surprisingly well in general. However, there was a stage well into the lives of the High Speed Trains, when they suffered overheating problems one hot summer. The engines in a couple of power cars were strapped up with sensors and the results were a revelation to the engineers. One was that that these engines never spent much more that 10 seconds on one power setting! Your point precisely! They had to redesign the cylinder heads and radiators which cured the problem and made them more reliable and efficient. Some might argue that this survey was well-overdue! Most have been re-engined with ML (German) engines which are probably far superior to the old Ruston ones. We know that Cummins nowadays produces some superb diesel engines, renowned for their high-revving abilities. However, I do recall that about 10 years ago, a class of diesel train here in the UK was fitted with one type of their engines and was a disaster after about three years! After mutterings about legal action, they changed all of the offending engines at great cost them themselves, better than at a cost to their reputation, I suppose!
Chris Hebbron
Let’s not be too unkind about marine engines: after all, the Gardner 5LW & 6LW were essentially marine engines, and they had a strong claim to be the most economical, reliable and altogether unbreakable engines ever installed in a bus. Ironic really that as the Bristol Ks and Lodekkas went to the scrapyards in the 60s & 70s, a huge proportion of their engines were shipped to the Far East to be fitted in junks, where they are probably still puttering about at that legendary 1700 rpm governed speed!
David Jones
Just to correct the details of the PMT Roadliners: There were 64 in total, 58 buses and 6 coaches. The prototype SN1000 never had a Perkins V8 engine fitted. The first Perkins V8 was trialled in fleet number S1078 in 1968 – just before I joined the Company as Technical Assistant. Later (about 1970) Fleet number S1065 was also fitted with a Perkins V8 but that was a far as the conversions went. We had horrendous problems with the Marshall bodied buses (S1069-S1091) with the bodies literally breaking their backs requiring major rebuilds as early as 1970. Some were exported to Australia in 1972 by a Cranes and Commercials (Dealer), Southampton.
Ian Wild
Interesting to hear the problem with the Roadliner breaking it’s back because the 36′ Fleetline with the panoramic windowed Alexander W body did the same, no doubt the effect of sticking a ton and a half of engine and gearbox across the end of a long rear overhang. One of the Scottish operators of the type (Dundee?) rebuilt some of theirs with a traditional Fleetline bustle and rear bulkhead – not sure whether it was a success in engineering terms – it was certainly an oddball in looks!. The 33′ version of the Fleetline single decker escaped these problems. The Freeline was a mid underfloor engine. While we are on the subject of Marine diesels – what about the Deltic, that engine came from a marine ancestry.
Andrew
I am out of my depth here, but was always told that the Deltic appeared so that English Electric could find a use for its Napier marine diesels which were intended to run more consistently. Some say it was prone to the same problems, but I think it was diesel electric and so was driving electric motors, possibly a more consistent task.
Joe
I once heard that there was another issue with marine diesel engines in railway locos (I believe that all the relevant ones, by the way, were diesel-electrics). In addition to the constant engine speed issue, there was a big difference between the natural “secondary resilient mounting” provided by the sea water under the hull of a ship, and the fairly rigid track bed on which a loco rode. The relevant engines preferred the former, and tended to protest at the latter.
Stephen Ford
As Stephen says, the locos were diesel-electrics and their “marine” engines were supplying a constant output rather than a variable. My family event last weekend including a trip on the canal from Sheffield Victoria Quays towards Rotherham. I was surprised to learn of the existence of the Gardner 2LW – very popular on narrow boats. Once the beast was underway, no need for anything bigger, no need for acceleration! John Deere, of tractor fame, are also involved in marine engine supply these days – using another “trade” name (Lugger I believe). Diesels have many applications but there are definitely horses for courses. Dare I suggest that, in their day, Gardners were so good that the design could cope with marine, road and generation applications whereas others didn’t quite get their act together!
David Oldfield
According to Alan Townsin, one of the problems with the Cummins V6 was that, for production reasons, Cummins used the same “V” angle as on their V8s. As a result the engine was inherently unbalanced and prone to vibration problems. This may have contributed to its well-known tendency to run hot, tighten-up so that it wouldn’t re-start, and smoke badly as well. Shame about the Roadliner, as the overall design concept was brilliant and well ahead of its time. The body problems were not unique to the Roadliner: many rear-engined buses tended to have problems with chassis flexing, and many coachbuilders struggled to cope with it. Even AN68s can exhibit symptoms: just look for all the popping rivets above the rear axle on a well-worn Roe example!
David Jones
27/01/15 – 13:52
I’ve just seen David Oldfields comment about Gardner LW-series engines in narrow boats (two comments above). As he says, acceleration is not important in that context; however, deceleration most certainly is. The propeller is shaped specifically to push the boat forwards. It is much less efficient when running in reverse, and that’s where Gardner torque comes into its own. Stopping power is everything on canals and rivers, and Gardner engines are even more revered there than they are on the road.
Peter Williamson
28/01/15 – 06:33
You have reminded me of a vehicle much closer to home with Cummins problems in miniature. The Hillman Imp was an excellent car, the first hatch- well, notch- back with luggage space at each end and a wonderfully smoothly revving aluminium engine and precise steering and gear change. Does distance lend enchantment to the view? I did have three, not all at once. The engine, it is said, all 875cc of it, came from a Coventry Climax fire pump (is this true?) and, yes was not used to revving, especially like that. So, apart from the water pump, you could go through cylinder head gaskets, especially with the twin choke Sunbeam version which had an oil cooler. The benefits of this became apparent when the “boiling” light came on: go faster, force more air through and the light would gently fade. Are we a bit off-thread? Memories…
Joe
02/02/15 – 07:01
Part of the legacy of Gardner’s early Diesel engines, designed originally for marine and stationary use, was the continued use of its own design of all-speed governor on the fuel injection pump. Many other Diesel engines have utilised injection pumps fitted with 2-speed governors (eg: CAV N and NN types, Simms BPE type, and the Friedmann & Maier pumps fitted to Leyland National 2s and Tiger TRs). Such governors regulated only idling speed and maximum rpm as determined by the engine manufacturer. Without any load on the engine (for example when running the engine with the gearbox in neutral), if the accelerator was set to any given position, the engine would either steadily climb to maximum rpm, or rise slightly and then steadily fall back to idling speed. On the road, variables such as vehicle load, gradient, gear selected etc all influenced engine speed between idling and maximum rpm, keeping things much more predictable for the driver. With Gardner engines having an all-speed governor, this meant that when the engine was running without load, the accelerator could be set to any given position, and the rpm would stay at a constant speed for that position (hope this is all making sense!). All-speed governors were particularly popular in marine and generator set applications, as when loads on the engine could vary, the engine speed would remain fairly constant. This could be heard on fairground generator sets (many of which tended to be Gardner-powered), when the load on the generator reduced, yet the engine speed remained more or less the same, albeit quietening as the load decreased. Conversely as generator demand increased, the engine could be heard to work harder, but the rpm would hardly change. In road vehicles, as with the two-speed governor, vehicle load, gradient, gear selected etc still came into play, and drivers would probably be unaware of such differences in governor types, as the accelerator position would be constantly changing when driving. However, I have heard drivers say that with Gardner-engined vehicles the further the accelerator was pressed the more resistance could be felt, as more tension was placed on the governor spring via the various mechanical linkages. This ‘heavy throttle’ feel, as far as I’m aware, was peculiar to Gardner-powered vehicles due to the design of governor. Gardner’s injection pumps were very large, heavy affairs with a large strong governor spring, and the cambox, camshaft, governor assembly and casings were all of Gardner design and manufacture. The fuel injection equipment mounted on top of the cambox was manufactured by CAV (Charles A Vandervell), and the original design was by Bosch, with CAV having an agreement to build the equipment under licence at their works in Acton, London.
Brendan Smith
02/02/15 – 11:41
I agree entirely with your comprehensive comments about the Gardner all speed governor, Brendan, and I have remarked on this feature myself elsewhere on this site. When pressing the accelerator pedal, one felt a very strong initial resistance against the spring that then softened until the engine speeded up to the new governor setting. As the rpm built up, so one felt the resistance building up again under the pedal. When changing gear with a conventional gearbox, the best technique, having selected the required gear, was to blip the engine slightly before re-engaging the clutch, which reduced the resistance on the throttle pedal. This obviated the snatch in the transmission that resulted if the accelerator had to be pushed down against the governor resistance, which would give way suddenly. Gardner abandoned the all speed governor in favour of max/min CAV fuel pumps in late 6LX and all 6/8LXB production. I suspect the LW20 range also had CAV pumps. The Gardner/CAV pump could not provide the higher injection pressures required for the increased output of the later engines.
Roger Cox
03/02/15 – 09:17
I often wonder what contribution Edward Turner might have made to the Roadliner. Edward’s main strength was in engine design, most famously for taking his Ariel Square Four motor bike engine and splitting it down the middle to give us the Triumph 500 cc parallel twin – hence the Tiger 100, Bonnie etc. When Jack Sangster brought Edward into the BSA owned Daimler fold in the mid fifties, Edward went on to design various ‘V’ formed petrol engines for Daimler cars. I am sure that, if anyone could, he would have designed the ‘V’ diesel to power their Roadliner. We would then have had ‘proper’ low floor buses decades before we actually got round to them. One can only speculate why this was not done. Was it Daimler’s reluctance to invest in a new Daimler engine? Or did politics dictate that the US owned Cummins factory should be given work in the deprived north east of England? Or did Edward Turner simply retire?
Alan Johnson
06/02/15 – 06:39
The late 1960s can’t have been an easy time for WRAC’s engineers: on top of the Wulfrunians the Roadliners can’t have been exactly good news . . . and then there were some Panthers on top. Following on from Alan’s comment, it was my understanding that the Cummins V6 was imported from America, so Cummins’s Darlington factory didn’t benefit in any event. A quick Google has confirmed the latter, but suggests part of “the grand plan” was for the Cummins engine to be built in a joint-venture in the old Henry Meadows factory (which was adjacent to JDGs Guy factory). The same article also suggests that a batch of 12-metre Roadliners was ordered but later cancelled (by whom?), that the Panther Cub was produced for Manchester after it threatened to order 10-metre Roadliners, and that a Rolls-Royce-engined option was considered. Looking at the original picture, I’m surprised to see a Cyclops fog-light fitted as late as 1966: Cyclops fog-lights were surely a fad of the 1950s . . . perhaps it was felt a more conventional near-side fitting might have added to the “inherent imbalance” of the Cummins engine.
Philip Rushworth
07/02/15 – 06:09
Thank you for that fascinating information regarding smooth gearchanges Roger. The first Gardner Diesel engine to have a non-Gardner injection pump was the 6LXDT introduced in 1984, which as you mention had the CAV ‘Majormec’ pump, rather than the usual CAV ‘tops’ on a Gardner cambox and governor assembly. The fitting of CAV injectors, rather than Gardner’s own (Gardner referred to theirs as ‘sprayers’) was another change on the 6LXDT. Gardner was trying to keep up with operator demand for more powerful engines (especially in the heavy goods vehicle sector), and it was said that the CAV pump and injectors could operate at higher injection pressures and at a faster injection rate than Gardner’s system could manage at higher bhp ratings. The ‘LW20’ (20bhp per cylinder) range was discontinued in 1974 Roger, and all LWs had the usual ‘Gardner bottoms with CAV tops’ injection pumps mated to Gardner ‘sprayers’. Referring to Alan’s speculation about a Daimler V8 Diesel engine in the ‘Roadliner’, what a wonderful sound that might have made, if the 2.5 litre Daimler V8 petrol engines were anything to go by. Such ‘lazy-sounding’ low-revving V8s sounded wonderful as they burbled past, but whether the Daimler V8 Diesel was an opportunity missed or a lucky escape, we’ll never know. However, one opportunity elsewhere fortunately WAS missed, as in 1967 Bristol was looking at the feasibility of fitting a Cummins V6 engine into the RE (whaaaat!). Duncan Roberts’ excellent book ‘Bristol RE – 40 years of service’ even has two photographs of the attempt. The chassis was a standard Series 2 RESL6G due for delivery to Crosville (ERG3: OFM 3E), and the photos show the V6 supported on wooden blocks at the height and position envisaged for fitting. A Gardner oil bath air filter housing can clearly be seen, as can the ‘JAGUAR – CUMMINS’ lettering on one of the engine rocker covers, which is intriguing. The unit was very compact, but also quite tall and would have protruded well above the chassis toprail. The RE chassis was already quite high at this point, and fitting the V6 would have required the floorline to be even higher and the project was dropped (sigh of relief all round). The RESL went on to enter Crosville service as nature intended fitted with a Gardner 6HLW engine. (There wouldn’t have been a welcome in the hillside with that V6 fitted that’s for sure). In the book, Duncan Roberts states “The time and money spent on this exercise suggests that there was an influential customer in the wings, but no clue has been found to his identity. The RE was therefore spared the odium that would have flowed from the unreliability for which this engine (the V6) became known”.
Brendan Smith
09/02/15 – 07:10
The Cummins plant at Darlington certainly carried out warranty work on the V6 whether or not they were actually built there. Because of the V6 problems, PMT were issued with three float V6 engines to enable units (usually by that time failed ones) to be returned to Darlington for rebuilding/upgrading. I drove the PMT Thames box van up there on one occasion to exchange three defective engines for three rebuilt ones. It would have been impractical to have returned them to the States for attention.
Ian Wild
03/12/15 – 10:56
As the author of the Wikipedia article on the Roadliner I can tell the poster who asked that it was a South African customer who ordered and later cancelled the 12m Roadliners. It may have been Pretoria, who also ended up with the last ones bodied (AEC AV810 powered) but I’ll have to dig out my copy of Buses Extra 39 first.
Stephen Allcroft
30/12/15 – 06:24
It was Johannesburg who ordered the 12m versions, before cancellation the designation was altered from SRC6-40 to SRA8-40. Chassis numbers are given in Tony’s article.
Sephen Allcroft
20/01/16 – 05:46
I think Ian’s recollections about returning the V6 Vim engines to the Darlington Plant are now a little hazy with time. Cummins Darlington plant built the smaller V6/V8 Val/Vale engine families, for Ford and Dodge. We did have a local Distributor, C D S & S, who would have rebuilt the engines on an exchange basis, on our behalf. Both Cummins plants in Darlington were for new manufacture only. All the engines supplied to Guy and Daimler were manufactured in Germany by Krupp. As an aside someone earlier suggested that the V6’s, as supplied to Guy/Daimler, were originally designed for Marine use, not so, the automotive sector was always the driving force behind new engine designs (volume), other applications came later.
Peter Hobson
21/01/16 – 06:34
Peter – PMT categorically did return V6 VIM engines to the Cummins plant at Darlington – I drove the PMT Ford lorry up there one Friday with three defective engines, returning with three rebuilt ones. This was a regular job for the lorry driver at that time. This was a campaign change instigated by either Daimler or Cummins, our contact at Cummins was Doug Strachan. Unfortunately the campaign changed engines were little better than the originals. What a surprise to see your name on the site – hope you are keeping well.
Ian Wild
21/01/16 – 15:28
Whatever the truth about the original purpose – marine or automotive – of the Cummins V6/V8 ranges, I consider the Cummins PT injection system to have been totally unsuitable for automotive applications. The response to accelerator movement was exceedingly coarse, giving the effect of the engine being either “on” or “off”. I mercifully never drove a Roadliner, but I had plenty of experience with the L10 in Olympians, and it was a horrible engine for smooth progress in a bus. Some manufacturers, notably Dennis, tried out the bigger M11 for bus work, and abandoned the idea. The Dennis R series coach didn’t do very well either.
Roger Cox
21/01/16 – 17:12
Ian- I have a look on this site ever now and again just to see who’s posting. The odd name from the past that comes up rattles my box, like Peter Wyke-Smith, which reminds me of the time we jointly got Leyland over a barrel to fit the HLXB/HLXCY into the National. On the subject of the Cummins V6 Vim engines, I have to defer to your laser like recollection (Note the tone of the grovelling!) Doug Strachan ran the Pilot Centre at Darlington, fitting various Cummins engines into new applications. George Ochs who was responsible for all Customer Service throughout the UK was also responsible for orchestrating any company campaigns, usually through the distributor network, ( via Cummins Diesel Sales and Service a subsidiary of Blackwood Hodge in Northampton). I assume that George took a cheaper/faster option, to keep costs down, by having Doug’s people cover the refurbishment ‘in house’. At the time we were in the middle of the V6/V8 Val/Vale problems with Dodge and Ford which kept everyone in our department out of mischief I can tell you. Talking of Doug Srachan, I went for an interview with him for the job of Pilot Centre Technician, at the back end of 1966. Halfway through our conversation, mainly relating to my time with Gardner, he said I might be interested in a different job. I then jumped ship and joined service department with a higher salary, company car and exes, working under George Ochs. I never did buy Doug that pint I owed him for his selfless attitude!
Peter Hobson
22/01/16 – 06:09
Peter – that’s very interesting. I’m glad my memory hadn’t failed me over the reworks at Darlington – I didn’t know the reason why until you filled in the background to Doug Strachan. Also interesting to note that Dodge and Ford had problems with the VAL/VALE engines. Were the problems similar to the VIM/VIME in bus application? What was the difference between the two groups of engines? You couldn’t forget PH Wyke-Smith!!! I can imagine he told Leyland EXACTLY what he thought about Leyland Nationals, 680/L11 engines and Leyland themselves!!
Ian – The problems with the early Val/Vales in the Dodges were mainly down to excessive black smoke. We had an ‘injector train’ campaign due to excessive wear on the mating surfaces of the tappet, push rods and rocker levers. The ensuing wear severely reduced the pre load torque applied to the injector, allowing excess fuel to be injected. If I remember correctly the ball end surface finishes had to be improved on all the mating items, from the camshaft to the injector. The Ford engines were a later spec and I think they all had the later mods included from day one. The V6’s ran at 3300rpm the V8’s at 3000rpm. Getting drivers to use the full engine rev range was quite a problem and I think both OEM’s fitted rev counters marked with a green band to encourage them to make full use of the available power. Drivers using the ” give it 3000 revs and drop the clutch” style of driving tended to generate less engine problems than those with a lighter touch. The V6 Vim engines in the Guy’s were a lot less hassle than the Daimlers. My personal opinion being that the engine cycling requirement for the PSV spec, i.e. lots of idling, were not helpful given the type of fuel system employed at the time. (Keeping on top of the injector preload setting, on a regular basis, was required too frequently for most customers, to keep a clean exhaust.) As John Ashmore mentioned in a prior forum, some of the engines suffered from dropped valves, due to crossheads ‘floating’ and pushing valve spring collars down thus releasing the valve collets. These failures indicated an overspeed condition and/or excessive valve clearances.
Peter Hobson
26/01/16 – 06:44
I am not an engineer, but a working life of 43 years in many roles in the bus industry brought me into close contact with most facets of its operation. The engineers on the OBP forum are welcome to shoot at my following opinions on Cummins engines. Legend has it that the PT (Pressure Time) fuel injection system was created because Cummins would not pay the royalties to Robert Bosch for the use of the traditional injection fuel pump. Cummins made much of the feature that ‘eliminated the need for high pressure fuel lines from the pump to each injector’. This was never a particular problem for other engine makers, and appears particularly eccentric nowadays in a world of high pressure common rail injection systems. The Cummins fuel system employed another camshaft at the cylinder head, this camshaft necessarily being much larger than that in the cambox of a normal fuel pump, to operate the PT injectors, these themselves being complicated units that did not give the accuracy or service life of ordinary injectors. PT was less fuel efficient than the Bosch system, required greater maintenance, and yielded very coarse engine speed responses to movements of the accelerator pedal in automotive applications. Significantly, the later B series engine (originally a Case Corporation design) which has spawned the present Cummins diesel ranges, abandoned the PT system. PT fuel injection made the highly stressed VAL/VALE/VIM/VINE V form engines more complicated than they needed to have been, and this, plus the poor throttle response endemic to the design, must have contributed to the mediocre reliability standard. Sadly, the promising Tilling Stevens TS4 diesel development programme was cancelled by Chrysler because of its joint venture with Cummins in the then new Darlington plant for the supply of V form engines. It is one of the wonders of the engineering world that the reputation of the Cummins company survived the fiasco of its dreadful V form engines. By contrast, the present day Cummins engine ranges are widely respected.
Roger Cox
27/01/16 – 16:08
I can vaguely recall, having no direct contact with Cummins engined Roadliners, that Black & White of Cheltenham re-engined some of their Roadliners with Perkins V engines. Did they fare any better?
Geoff Pullin
29/01/16 – 07:06
Geoff – PMT had two Roadliners re-engine with Perkins V8-510 units plus the final batch of 10 delivered with the Perkins engines. The Perkins unit was a much smoother running engine probably the eight cylinders helped. Time dulls the memory, I don’t think the Perkins buses lasted any longer than the Cummins ones. I do recall quite severe cylinder bore wear with the Perkins engines, maybe as much to do with the air induction system (and maintenance thereof) as shortcomings with the engine itself. There were other problems with the Roadliner, not least the metalastik toggle link suspension although Midland Red seemed to manage with it. Thanks to Peter H for the detail of VAL/VALE engine problems.
Ian Wild
29/01/16 – 07:06
Although slightly off-piste, I recall some years ago that British Rail had problems in some their Cummins- engined diesel trains and Cummins had to replace all of them at considerable cost.
Chris Hebbron
29/01/16 – 12:56
I think you are thinking of the Class 142,143 and 144 pacers that had their TL11/Hydracyclic drivelines swapped for Cummins LTA10H /Voith after severe early unreliability. Volvo as successor to Leyland Bus took the hit for the Cummins Engines and Cummins as successor to Self-Changing Gears paid for the Voith transmissions and Gemidner(sp?) final drives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_142 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_143 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_144 the 141s retained their TL11H and Hydracyclic driveline but only ran for 14 years in the UK although eight were exported to Iran which could be seen as a hostile act…
Stephen Allcroft
29/01/16 – 17:29
Thx, Stephen A, for filling in the detail. I wouldn’t think any of them are still running. I also recall Rootes Group selling thousands of Hillman Minxes CKD to Iran years ago – another hostile act!
Chris Hebbron
29/01/16 – 17:30
Does anyone know what the problems were with the rubber suspension on the Roadliner, and was it one or both axles? With one exception, the toggle link suspension was only used on the rear of BMMOs. It was highly successful and on single deckers extremely simple. The exception (the S19) was in principle if not in detail, more like the Roadliner. However, the S19 is thought to have retained this arrangement for its whole working life. Any details would be much appreciated.
Allan White
30/01/16 – 06:07
Allan – the PMT Roadliners had metalastik suspension on both axles. Problems as I remember were panhard rod bush/bracket wear/failure and failure of the metalastik bonding in the suspension units themselves. also, I’d forgotten that the 24 Marshall bodied vehicles broke their backs after about three years service. I remember one was rebuilt but at massive cost particularly labour. The Plaxton bodies being timber framed were rather more forgiving. Incidentally, Plaxton was not a mainstream bus body supplier to the BET group at that time, wonder why they got the initial Roadliner body contract?
Ian Wild
30/01/16 – 06:08
Roger – I may be able to enlighten you on some salient Cunmmins details. Clessie Cummins introduced the PT system in 1924, a major update took place in 1954 to improve fuel efficiency, due to increasing competition in the US. None of the Cummins historical info makes mention of any contact with Bosch. The mechanical injector is actuated, by a third rocker lever, from a standard engine camshaft comprising an additional cam located between the inlet and exhaust cam lobes. The fuel pump is a very compact unit, you can hold it in one hand. It supplies a fuel pressure up to approx. 250psi max to the injectors. Injection pressures up to 18000psi can be achieved within the nozzle part of the injector. In the 1960’s the same size pump, with different internal settings, could be use on a small Val V6 up to a 28 litre V12 – 700 HP engine. The fuel pump for Automotive use was a Max/Min governor type, an ‘all road speed’ governor, used mainly for use on Gen Sets or Loco’s was available at extra cost. In retrospect the Val/Vale, Vim/Vine engines were of very ‘Oversquare’ design. Subsequent designs increased the stroke of the engines and were more acceptable. I hope the foregoing helps.
Peter Hobson
30/01/16 – 18:37
Thanks for that clarification, Peter. I saw a number of L10 engines being worked on, and, had I looked at them properly, I should have seen that the injector of each cylinder was operated by an extra cam lobe rather than a separate shaft. (To quote Sherlock Holmes, “You see, Watson, but you do not observe”.) The trouble with the PT system was its coarse response to accelerator pressure, and I am interested to learn that an “all speed” governor was an option. This, I am sure, would have remedied that problem in automotive applications. The “on/off” characteristics of the PT system would not have been significant in haulage use – unlike passengers, sacks of spuds or whatever do not complain about rough rides – but for bus work it was terrible. The PT system seems to have been best suited to constant load applications such as rail or marine. It is noteworthy that the 14 litre Cummins engine that still powers many of the railway DMUs, and was once offered in UK lorries as an alternative to the Gardner range, did extremely well in a comparative survey of maintenance costs – a reflection of reliability – compiled by the “Transport Engineer” journal in 1979. Unsurprisingly, Gardner came top, but the Cummins 250bhp 14 litre came a close second, with the AEC 760 next. The Rolls Royce Eagle was way down the list at No.11. Coming in second from the bottom at no.15, the Leyland 510 of Leyland National notoriety cost six times as much to maintain as a 6LXB. Getting back to the V form engines, I recall that, in 1969, Cummins and General Motors became embroiled in a lawsuit in which Cummins claimed patent rights on the principle of the “oversquare” stroke to bore ratio. Quite rightly, the claim was thrown out by the Maryland court. There were many oversquare engines before Cummins.
Roger Cox
02/02/16 – 06:58
PMT service 19 (I think) ran to Sandbach with some journeys extended to Over. The destination display showed ‘Over (Square)’ – quite appropriate for the Roadliners used on this service!
