Category: Photos

Brighton, Hove & District – Bristol Lodekka – OPN 807 – 7

Brighton, Hove & District - Bristol Lodekka - OPN 807 - 7

Brighton, Hove & District
1959
Bristol LDS6B
ECW H33/37R

Seen in Brighton in the summer of 1960 is Brighton, Hove & District OPN 807, fleet no. 7, an example of the rare LDS short version of the Bristol Lodekka with flat lower saloon floor, air suspension on the rear axle, and air (instead of vacuum) over hydraulic braking system. With some adjustments, the LDS model then went into volume production as the FS type. The prototype LDS, an LDS6G with Gardner 6LW engine, went to Crosville in 1958 as 285 HFM, fleet no. DLG 949. In May / June 1959, BH&D received LDS buses OPN 801 to 808, the company’s first Lodekkas, which were powered by the then newly introduced 8.9 litre Bristol BVW engine. OPN 804 to 808 had ECW H33/37R bodywork, but OPN 801 to 803 were CO33/37R convertible open toppers. www.flickr.com/
As delivered, these eight LDS6B buses had the Cave-Brown-Cave heating system installed and, as seen in the photograph, lacked a conventional radiator at the front of the engine bay. The deficiencies of this heating/cooling arrangement, especially apparent with the overheating prone BVW engine, led to its subsequent disconnection and the fitment of a normal radiator, though the cooler running Gardner powered Crosville prototype retained its Cave-Brown-Cave heating and blank front panel with winged motif to the end. OPN 807 served with BH&D until January 1969 when, under NBC “rationalisation”, it passed to Southdown ownership with all the BH&D operations. Withdrawn in 1972, it then went on to Brittain’s in Northampton //bcv.robsly.com/ who sold it, ostensibly for preservation, in June 1979. Having since passed through a number of supposedly preservationist hands, it would seem that it still exists in the current ownership of a dealer, the London Bus Export Company of Lydney, though its current condition is uncertain. If it still retains its BVW engine then spares for that will be scarcer than hen’s teeth.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

18/02/18 – 17:05

APN 54B

Prodded by Roger’s item, I Googled LDX 003 and found Nigel Furness’ book mentioning LDX003 and LDX004 both of which had passed me by! His book also adds that BCV changed the designation of the six LDL 30′ chassis built in 1957 (eg Bristol L8450 – see //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=34464 to LLD after they were built which explains why I had come across this confusing reference at some time whilst at BCV.
Roger’s photo reminded me of one that I took at BCV in early 1964 showing no. 4 with two non-standard to Tilling Group features of these vehicles: the split step (making a ‘stepless’ entry into a stepped access!); and the side route no. indicator. The first feature is still extant in the photo-link of no. 7 in Brittain’s ownership.
When I took the photo I had just arrived back at the factory at Brislington after a long spell with BOC so was not aware why no. 4 was at BCV. It was the first of the eight LDS chassis built at the end of the 138th sanction for BH&D, although the last three with convertible open top bodies were given fleet nos. 1 -3. I also have a note to say that its BVW engine was fitted with a DPA (distributor) type fuel injection pump, instead of the original in-line fuel injection pumps of either CAV or Simms manufacture. I’m not aware that this cheaper component was adopted as a standard in later BVW engines.

Geoff Pullin

19/02/18 – 07:07

Whoops – got confused. This photo is of BH&D no. 54, not 4 and hence is an FS6B of the 214th sanction dating from 1964. The bit about DPA pumps definitely refers to 5no. 4!

Geoff Pullin

19/02/18 – 07:08

Thanks for the picture of the “stepless” door platform on these buses, Geoff. I had completely forgotten about these, but I now recall that they were held to create more platform stumbles than they sought to eradicate. Your reference to the use of DPA fuel pumps on these early BVW engines is notewothy. DPA pumps appeared in the mid to late fifties on smaller engines, but this must surely have been one of the pioneer applications on a relatively large commercial vehicle engine. Was it intended to thus equip the production BVW as standard? I am not an engineer, just an interested layman, but I can recognise the appeal of the DPA against the traditional, much more costly, in line pump. The DPA has to work harder serving all the injectors, but the advantages of cheaper and easier replacement together with simplified calibration must have been attractive. Was reliability a problem, and did these early Lodekkas keep these pumps?

Roger Cox

19/02/18 – 07:08

I remember these Lodekkas from my gap year conducting from Conway Street in 1969/70. The lowered rear platform step was said to be popular with all the old ladies of Hove but in rush hour with visitors and foreign students they were also what we now consider a trip hazard. Happy days!

Anthony H

20/02/18 – 06:03

As of Feb 12 it was still at Lydney. Gossip says it was possessed over an unpaid bill. I would have thought offering it for continued preservation would have attracted a buyer.

Roger Burdett

21/02/18 – 07:26

steps

Reading Geoff Pullin’s post regarding Brighton & Hove APN 54B and its modified entrance step, it put me in mind of a similar design modification applied to a East Midland VR some 9 years later. PRR 121L and its low entrance step option was presented to the local press in Mansfield as a help to the aged and infirm. I don’t know how long it lasted but photos on the web show it had gone by the time Yelloway became the owners. I captured my picture when nearly new at Mansfield depot.

Berisford Jones

28/02/18 – 07:37

Berisford’s photograph of East Midland VRT PRR 121L’s step arrangement has reminded me that one of East Yorkshire’s 1973 VRTs (932) was similarly treated, but was converted to standard layout in later life. Maybe such experimental steps were more widespread than maybe first thought.

Brendan Smith

28/02/18 – 12:21

I seem to remember that ECW did about half a dozen VRTs with this step as an experiment in 1972/3 – another one was Trent 631 (RCH 631L), which was converted to normal within a year or so.

Bob Gell

03/03/18 – 06:40

Roger asks about the DPA fuel injection pump. To my knowledge it was never used on production BVW engines, but others may know differently! I can’t find any information about its introduction to other makes of engines but remember that it was used by Leyland on 680 engines in AN68 Atlanteans and later Leopards and probably Panthers. I can’t remember about the 500/510 series.
The DPA did have some reliability problems but the reduced initial cost and ease of replacement was probably thought to compensate in Leyland’s eyes. It was not suitable for increasing power outputs at a time that competition was pushing them up. The ‘Power Plus’ series of 680 engines used in trucks were fitted with in-line fuel injection pumps and that was the engine used in the Ribble / Standerwick VRL/LH coaches and why they were able to go ‘uphill at 70mph’ compared to 36ft Leopards, which were stuck with the DPA version because the in-line pump would foul the chassis frame. We had to wait for the Tiger before this power problem was sorted!

Geoff Pullin

04/03/18 – 06:50

From memory the later 680’s had an F&M Friedmann and Maier injection pump fitted.

Andrew Charles

05/03/18 – 08:02

Geoff, thank you for the fascinating information regarding BH&D 4 being fitted with a CAV DPA distributor type (sometimes known as rotary) fuel injection pump when new, as I had no idea of such an experiment. As you comment, the standard BVW engine was fitted with an in-line injection pump of either Simms (SPE type) or CAV (N type) manufacture, although I seem to recall that in later years the CAV pump became the norm. West Yorkshire’s 0.680-engined Bristol RELHs and Leyland Leopards were fitted with DPA pumps as standard, apart from a handful of WY’s last Leopards which had Austrian-built Friedmann & Maier (F&M) in-line pumps. F&M injection pumps were also used on Leyland-engined Leyland Tiger TR and National 2 models. The Leyland 510 engine fitted to the National 1 used the CAV NN-type pump, which was a development of the N-type, the immediate difference being that the NN had its oil supplied from the engine lubrication system, whereas the N was simply ‘splash fed’ by oil from its own small ‘sump’. Also, on the National engine the injection pump was laid on its side rather than being vertical.
As Roger says, the cheaper initial cost, ease of removal/replacement and simplified calibration were in the DPA pump’s favour, but I would tend to agree that the pumps would have had to work harder than a larger in-line pump on more powerful engines. The main problem WY had with DPA pumps related to fuel leaks, mainly although not solely, around the banjo bolts retaining the high pressure outlets to the injector pipes. I think Geoff is correct in thinking that the DPA pump was not suited to the steady increase in power outputs on large diesel engines in later years, although CAV did introduce the DPC (Distributor Pump, ‘C’ type) to help counter this, but I’m not sure as to its success. Going back to the DPA pumps, it came as something of a surprise when I first saw one on a 0.680 Atlantean engine. The pump looked so small on the side of such a large engine, especially when compared to the very large (but admittedly long-lived) injection pumps used by Messrs L Gardner & Sons on their range of engines!

Brendan Smith

Midland General – Bristol Lodekka – 972 ARA – 453

972 ARA

Midland General Omnibus Company
1956
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW H33/25RD

Photographed in Nottingham in August 1961 is Midland General 453, 972 ARA, a Bristol LD6G Lodekka with ECW H33/25RD bodywork, delivered to the operator in October 1956. This vehicle, together with other buses from across the NBC, went to West Riding in April 1970 to expedite the withdrawal of the troublesome Guy Wulfrunian fleet. Sadly, 453 didn’t last very long in the care of West Riding as it went to the scrapyard in December 1971 having, rather pointlessly, been renumbered No. 408 just one month earlier.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

09/04/18 – 07:39

Such a pity the BTC had such a rigid livery policy with most Loddekkas being in wall to wall red or green. We were denied the opportunity to see such attractive vehicles in attractive liveries such as this one on a wider scale. The Midland General livery seemed to slip through the livery police net somehow but the loophole was soon spotted by the dreaded NBC and the even more dreaded poppy red was soon inflicted.

Philip Halstead

10/04/18 – 05:39

I agree – the only other attractive exception was BH&D, who had cream roofs and a much deeper band of cream around the lower deck windows – oh, and I think that either Notts & Derby or Mansfield District did something similar with Tilling Green and cream. Pity as the ECW body was beautifully proportioned, although too Spartan inside for my taste.

David Wragg

10/04/18 – 05:40

Some Midland General vehicles were initially painted dark blue with a white band and the fleetname in NBC style.

Stephen Bloomfield

10/04/18 – 05:41

Midland General never was a Tilling company but throughout it’s existence as a BTC and THC operator, it’s vehicles were always immaculately turned out, regardless of age and always sported comprehensive, fully working blind displays with via points shown, right until the later FLFs and VRs which had provision for ultimate destination and service number only. It was strict company policy that they must be correctly set too, the word ‘SERVICE’ would never have been allowed, in fact it wasn’t even on the blinds as an option.

Chris Barker

11/04/18 – 06:00

What is often overlooked regarding the BTC’s standard red and cream/green and cream ‘Tilling’ liveries is that when they were first introduced, the Tilling Group was in private hands. For many years the Group had operated a policy of centralised control and one of its aims, post-World War II, was to standardise on its ‘in house’ Bristol-ECW products – namely the K type double-decker in highbridge or lowbridge form, and the L type single-decker in bus or express form. Standard liveries for its bus fleets were also being pursued. When the Tilling Group was nationalised in 1948, outwardly it would probably have looked like ‘business as usual’ to the general public, as the old Tilling liveries remained. Interestingly, when the Balfour Beatty Group came under state control, Midland General, Notts & Derby Traction and Mansfield District retained their original liveries. Later, when the Red & White Group was acquired, Cheltenham District continued with its dark red and cream livery, applied in its distinctive fashion. The BTC did not seem to be as obsessed with rigid standardisation as perhaps the privately owned Tilling Group had been.
Although many of the coaches in the BTC fleets donned cream with either green or red/maroon relief, some distinctive and well respected coach liveries continued – those of United, Royal Blue, South Midland, Bristol-Greyhound, and Crosville spring to mind. Presumably prestige and local good will still counted for something, even under state control.
When the THC and BET Group were combined to form the state owned NBC in 1969, with the well-intentioned objective of halting the decline in bus use, for the first few years it appeared once again to be ‘business as usual’ regarding liveries. Ironically, it was someone from the private sector – one Freddie Wood – at the behest of the Heath government, who was responsible for the corporate liveries inflicted on the constituent companies in 1972. The standardised poppy red and white, or leaf green and white liveries for buses and ‘local coaches’ and the allover white National coach livery were not a patch on the liveries they replaced. In fairness, the introduction of the ‘National white coach network’ did improve public awareness of express travel and business did increase as a result, but why such an impractical colour was chosen for such hard working vehicles operating over long distances in all weathers remains a mystery.

Brendan Smith

11/04/18 – 06:04

Midland General, together with Notts & Derby and Mansfield District, were Balfour Beatty companies. Balfour Beatty initially concentrated upon tramway operation in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, whence it then broadened its activities into electricity generation and supply in those counties. When the electricity supply industry was nationalised in 1948, that aspect of the Balfour Beatty operation was taken over by the government, but the three public transport components of the business, by then using trolleybuses and motor buses, did not automatically follow suit. The disposal of Midland General, Mansfield District and Notts & Derby was a decision taken by Balfour Beatty in the light of the then Labour government’s aspirations for public ownership of the bus industry. Tilling sold out at about the same time, but the BET resisted. I agree with Chris that the standards of Midland General were very high, endorsed by the splendid livery.

Roger Cox

19/04/18 – 06:35

The reason that the Midland General fleet could be so smart was that the services operated were extremely profitable compared with other operators such as Trent.

Nigel Turner

20/04/18 – 06:40

Indeed so Nigel, Midland General had some very lucrative routes and on weekdays they operated many works and colliery services which operated throughout the day to meet changing shift patterns. On Saturdays, when vehicles which had been used on such duties might otherwise have stood idle, many of their principal services were so busy with shoppers, they were doubled in frequency, so the fleet was fully utilised. A blue livery and a blue chip company!

Chris Barker

23/05/18 – 06:47

Roger, the shareholdings of MGOC/NDT/MDT were all held by the Balfour Beatty subsidiary “MIDESCO”, the Midland Counties Electricity Supply Company – it was MIDESCO which was nationalised as part of the compulsory nationalisation of the electricity supply industry, becoming part of the British Electricity Authority (BEA). It was because Balfour Beatty chose not to separate out the accounts for MGOC/NDT/MDT from those of the parent (MIDESCO) that they were nationalised (as part of that electricity supply company). Initially the BEA negotiated with a management agreement with Balfour Beatty for “oversight” of MGOC/NDT/MDT, but this lasted only months until the BEA transferred MGOC/NDT/MDT to the BTC.
The Llanelly & District company ended up in state-owned hands for similar reasons, but the outcome then was quite different.

Philip Rushworth

24/05/18 – 07:29

Thanks for that clarification, Philip. An interesting website about the Midland General Group may be found here:- https://midlandgeneralomnibus.weebly.com

Roger Cox

31/08/20 – 06:21

The location of the photo is the old Mount St bus station in Nottingham, a place I was most familiar with, since I lived in Nottingham until 1964, and my bus home (either the Nottingham City Transport 63 or more usually the Midland General F5) left from there. It was a pretty basic facility, and I understand it was actually a genuine wartime utility bus station! Presumably the utility Guy Arabs in the Midland General and Barton fleets, which in the early 1960s were regulars there, felt at home in the place. I believe the place was built to ease overcrowding at Nottingham’s original Huntingdon St bus station, and would also save a bit of mileage for routes from the west,, probably an important consideration during the war. I always found the Midland General buses to be well presented and reliable, but it always seemed strange to me that travelling to and from school on the F5, usually on the same departures each day, you never knew what vehicle would turn up – anything from a utility Guy to a brand new Lodekka. The route was worked by Ilkeston Depot, and they seemed to have no consistency as to what was sent out on what duty. Mount St was replaced by a new smaller facility nearby after I left Nottingham, but that had a fairly short life before closure.

Chris Appleby

Potteries Motor Traction – Bristol FS6G – DPM67C – T2

DPM 67C

Potteries Motor Traction
1965
Bristol FS6G
ECW H33/27RD

New to Brighton Hove and District as fleet number 67 this was one of a pair of these Lodekkas acquired by PMT in NBC days as Driver Training vehicles. The yellow NBC style livery is rather attractive. Seems a strange vehicle type to transfer to an ex BET fleet with no previous experience of this model.
Photo taken at Woodhouse Street, Stoke outside the main works in July 1978

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

22/04/20 – 06:46

These two buses were added to the PMT fleet at the end of 1976 and if my memory serves me right one was received in NBC green whilst the other had traditional Southdown livery. These buses were newer than all of the Leyland Atlanteans and most of the Daimler Fleetlines still in operation at that time, but these were not suitable for Driver Traning duties by virtue of having semi-automatic transmission. At that time to obtain a licence to drive all type of PSV a driver had to have undertaken at least part of the PSV training on a bus with fully transmission.

Leekensian

23/04/20 – 06:40

Thanks for the comment. In 1976 PMT would still have Ford coaches with manual transmission (and maybe Reliances 986-991 and 1041 -1043, possibly some Reliance service buses still with manual transmission). Most BET fleets had gone over to forward entrances for their later half cab deliveries and rear entrance buses were easier (and cheaper) to adapt for driver training. An interesting interlude and interesting comment about liveries as received.

Ian Wild

23/04/20 – 08:27

I agree that the livery is quite attractive, probably aided by how impeccable the bus looks.
Is it still or no longer the case that PSV drivers must have some experience of manual transmission? The Stagecoach learner buses I see around locally (all single deckers, although the fleet has double deckers, too) are so old as to suggest that they have manual gearboxes. They are of the high-floored variety coach type with steep steps into the vehicles.

Chris Hebbron

24/04/20 – 06:08

In 1976 PMT still had a large number of Leyland Leopards and AEC Reliances from the batches delivered between 1962 and 1965 – 921 to 950, 976 to 985 and 1036 to 1040. One of 1963 Leopards (927) was converted to a Driver Trainer in 1977 and carried the same livery as the two Bristol FS6G. Unfortunately all of the heavy weight(some might say decent) coaches had been withdrawn by PMT in 1973 to be replaced by twenty Ford coaches with Duple Dominant Express bodywork. I have often wondered if the coaches were withdrawn prematurely to take advantage of the bus grant scheme or in order to improve the profile of the coach fleet. A further link between PMT and Southdown also took place in 1976 when six 1965 Leyland Leopards coaches were purchased and carried PMT fleet numbers 10 to 15.

Leekensian

24/04/20 – 06:09

Chris-so far as I am aware the use of high floor coaches is more to do with a requirement that buses used for PCV licence testing (and hence training) are fitted with ABS brakes. Modern coaches are so fitted (again by law) hence meet the required standard.

Ian Wild

25/04/20 – 06:29

Ian; When this came into force my local operator, First Eastern Counties, had to use the newest Volvo coaches (R reg) for driver training and the N&P reg ones for revenue earning services.
Shortly before the ABS requirement I had passed my class D driving test in a 26 year old Bedford YMT which obviously did not have ABS.

Nick Dasey

26/04/20 – 06:10

Even when delivered in 1966, the FS did not appear to be the bus for the future of the industry! Several of the last batch went to Tilling companies that already used FLF forward entrance deckers. So why revert? I recall United Counties had several of this last batch, with the reliable 6LW Gardner engine and without CBC radiators and thus engineering-wise were very reliable vehicles. But not much use when one man operation of double deckers came to the industry within two years of the delivery. United Counties carried out careful conversions of four of their last FS6G into Driver Trainers and, in at least one case, combined with tree lopping duties, complete with trailer for carrying the cuttings. They were out-shopped from Northampton similarly to the PMT version in an immaculate yellow version of the NBC livery. I think samples are still running and there are photos on Flickr. PS: I remember collecting Eastern Counties last FS5G from Lowestoft in 1966!

Geoff Pullin

26/04/20 – 06:12

Nick, I really admire your gall to go public on this site to say that you passed your test in a Bedford!
Perhaps our illustrious ‘blogmaster’ could start a separate topic heading, so that we might be able to regale tales of what we passed our PSV test with?
just an idea? (Tin hat time from our beloved Bedford fans, I fear )

Mike Norris

27/04/20 – 07:25

Mike, you think that admitting to passing a test in a Bedford is bad, it get’s worse. I also passed my class 3 & 1 HGV tests in Bedfords and worst of all, I still own the coach.

Nick Dasey

27/04/20 – 07:25

Well, I learned and passed my test in a magnificent (6 speed) 6U3ZR. Of course, purists might (justifiably?) say that learning and passing on a constant mesh decker is something of which to be more proud.

David Oldfield

27/04/20 – 07:27

I passed my PSV test on either DPM66C or DPM67C I don’t recall which one, having trained on both of these buses whilst at PMT in 1978. My assessment was undertaken on the aforementioned Leyland Leopard 927 (927 UVT).

Leekensian

28/04/20 – 06:27

I did my initial PSV training at PMT on dual control (and Metalastik toggle link suspension fitted) AEC Reliance 470 5596. I progressed to PD2 L466 (which suited me as it had a sliding cab door) and finally PD2 L337 which I wasn’t keen on. The Instructors were Gerry, Sam And George Clews who was the Examiner. He somewhat reluctantly advised me that I had passed my test. Something about being an Engineer, I wouldn’t have to drive a bus in anger!!! Happy days

Ian Wild

29/04/20 – 06:24

I recall that the primary use of T5596 was to train Conductors in order to obtain a Car licence.
George Clews took me on an assessment to drive a Company car but my PSV test was undertaken by a Ministry Examiner. The man in charge of the PMT car pool was an affable man, Bill Corden who I remember was also the Chauffeur to the General Manager. His initial greeting when encountering him was ‘haven’t we got good jobs’. Indeed happy days.
There is a link on the SCT’61 site regarding T5596.

Leekensian

30/04/20 – 05:54

I remember Bill Corden, great bloke in charge of the private car garage. Bill was very helpful and encouraging to me. His usual greeting to me was ‘How’s the fleet!”
Characters!!

Ian Wild

West Riding – Bristol Lodekka – HHY 183D – 452

West Riding - Bristol Lodekka - HHY 183D - 452

West Riding Automobile
1966
Bristol Lodekka FLF6G
ECW H38/32F

Proceeding on a very wet day into Leeds city centre is West Riding No. 452, Bristol FLF6G HHY 183D with ECW H38/32F bodywork, originally delivered to Bristol Omnibus as C7280 in October 1966. When, in 1967, West Riding sold out to the Transport Holding Company, which became the National Bus Company in 1969, steps were taken to withdraw the very troublesome Guy Wulfrunian fleet, and to secure this end as quickly as possible, buses were transferred from various parts of the NBC empire. This FLF6G was sent from Bristol Omnibus to West Riding in February 1970, so it had not been there very long when I took this picture in April of that year. In November 1971 it was renumbered 544 and stayed with West Riding until 1980, during which period it acquired the abysmal NBC poppy red livery. It was then sold to Top Deck Travel of Horsell Common with whom it spent several years in the USA up to 1986 before finally being consigned to the scrapyard in 1989.
I acknowledge this very informative website as the source of much of the foregoing information:– //bcv.robsly.com/lodekka.html

A complete West Riding fleet list may be found at this link

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

01/10/20 – 06:33

If it’s not my imagination, this bus appears to have hub caps on the rear wheels. If this is the case, was this a West Riding feature carried forward to this hotchpotch of foreign incomers!

Chris Hebbron

02/10/20 – 06:41

This is a good point, Chris. I have blown up the picture on my computer screen, and you are right. I hadn’t noticed the rear wheel trims, rather similar to those on London Transport RT/RTL/RM/RF types. I have looked at my own pictures of other West Riding buses – Guy Arabs and Wulfrunians, Daimler Fleetlines, AEC Reliances, and other’ imports’ brought in to ease the Wulfrunian crisis, and none have these wheel trims. Perhaps an OBP expert can enlighten us.

Roger Cox

02/10/20 – 06:42

The black fibreglass rear wheel trims were introduced as standard NBC spec. mid 1960s to all Bristol chassis. Somebody must have thought it looked smart and perhaps would aid mechanical vehicle washing without asking the operating engineers. The need to remove the covers for every tyre pressure check and wheel nut tightening led to depots under pressure (pun not intended!) leaving them off and then taking off the fixing brackets which incorporated a spring loaded catch and became a bit of a danger as they stuck out, being bolted to the axle shaft hub. Few Chief Engineers insisted on re-instatement because the newer vehicles then looked the same as the earlier deliveries and weren’t noticed! No doubt there were enthusiast depot engineers (usually at smaller and remote locations) around the country who took pride in retaining the wheel covers in good condition.

Geoff Pullin

02/10/20 – 06:44

I wonder (suppose, really) that I’m the only person who thinks the ECW Lodekkas are amongst the best looking double deckers ever to enter service.
Angular, functional, almost minimalist design which was of its age, no doubt, but which still looks perfect for the job it was designed to do.
Or is it my age and I haven’t moved on – old buses are as much a part of me in the same way I still look at TV actresses from that era and think that Jan Francis, Paula Wilcox, Felicity Kendall etc, etc haven’t really been improved upon 50 years later??

Stuart C

03/10/20 – 06:33

No Stuart C, you’re not the only one who considers the Lodekka to have been among the best looking double deckers. I must admit to a slight preference for the rear entrance variety, with their more raked fronts. Having been a conductor for a brief period, I also appreciated the extra space on the platform – on an FLF, I always seemed to be in the way!

Nigel Frampton

03/10/20 – 06:34

It’s nice that these vehicles arrived in time to wear the traditional West Riding livery and fleetname, if only for a couple of years. As Roger says, the adoption of NBC poppy red was regrettable and something of a mystery when every other NBC fleet for miles around was also red, the nearest fleet to opt for green was perhaps East Midland, a considerable distance away.
It’s also good to see that WR went to the trouble of having non-standard destination blinds made to fit the aperture which was nothing like their own standard display. Dare I say, some may have been content to simply show the word ‘Service’.

Chris Barker

03/10/20 – 10:26

This photo also illustrates how the cream glazing strip that ECW used for a few years made the destination aperture look smaller. In this case it looks as if the already small lettering is too big, yet with black glazing strip it would look fine!
If I remember rightly, the cream rubber coincided with complaints that the older green leathercloth interior side panels and green criss-cross Formica on seat backs looked a bit dull. It always looked to me that the response was that of an engineer looking through the pattern books (and certainly not an interior designer) – and choosing golden leaves cream Formica instead.
The radiator cap also looks to be painted red. That was most probably part of the necessary operation in those days of using antifreeze only during the winter and the cap would have been painted red (or a different colour each year) for drivers to know that it needed topping up with antifreeze mix and not water. Happy days!
Did anyone else feel vulnerable sitting at the back downstairs of an FLF? I always avoided those seats!

Geoff Pullin

08/10/20 – 06:50

Chris. This isn’t the “traditional” West Riding livery – it is Tilling green which West Riding adopted after it sold out to the THC, the traditional West Riding green was a shade lighter/brighter. I understand that the decision of West Riding to adopt NBC poppy red was driven by the Regional Director who wanted an “all red” Region; I suspect that the West Riding Group GM, Fred Dark, who had come from Yorkshire, didn’t put up too much resistance given that if West Riding had adopted leaf green then Yorkshire would probably have had to do the same under NBC’s rationalist policies.

Philip Rushworth

09/10/20 – 16:13

Presumably this bus, being quite new on its transfer to West Riding, simply retained its Bristol Omnibus Tilling Green.

Roger Cox

10/10/20 – 06:56

As I understand it, West Riding adopted NBC red because the regional management wanted an “all-red” area as Philip says, but that wasn’t universal across all areas of NBC. In the south, Western National used green, but Devon General (which was by then under common management with WN) used red. A similar situation applied to Provincial (green) which was managed by Hants & Dorset (red); and Cheltenham (red) was a subsidiary of Bristol OC (green).

Nigel Frampton

21/10/20 – 06:46

West Riding were a partially red fleet for many years as the former tram routes were run with red vehicles West Riding had actually begun to change from their traditional green to Tilling green before the Lodekkas began to arrive.
On the subject of the use of NBC red there is an apocryphal story that Yorkshire Woollen and West Riding tossed a coin and West Riding lost!

Chris Hough

14/11/20 – 07:38

I am coming to this a bit late, but I have been very interested to read all the comments in the string above. I have not worked on buses, as Nigel Frampton has, but purely from a user point of view, I loved the Bristol Lodekkas. When I was a boy in York I would try to get my mother to take us home from Exhibition Square, where the routes 2, 8 and 12 home were all Lodekkas, rather than from Stonebow (mostly VRs – which I also am now very fond of).
I read a very good book about the Routemaster, in which the author referred to the Lodekka as a Behemoth. I think that was unfair! When I moved down to London in 1989 I enjoyed being able to step back in time to use the Routemasters, but they did seem very narrow and rickety compared with the Lodekkas.

Henry Arthurs

United Automobile – Bristol LL5G – 991 CHN – GS3

United Automobile - Bristol LL5G - 991 CHN - GS 3

United Automobile Services
1957
Bristol LL5G
ECW B39C

These nice looking centre entrance buses did the Scarborough Sea Front Service from The Corner Cafe in the North Bay to The Spa in the South Bay. I think they were actually rebodied half cab single deckers as NHN 128. I think the bodies were mid 50s and the chassis were from the 30s but they had an easy life on the Sea Front Service. If you know different please put me right any info appreciated.

Update
I have found out that the body was built in 1957 and was a B39C and it was a rebuild on an old 1946/7 chassis. there is a photo here of a very sad view of 992 CHN.

A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.

These fine buses were originally built in 1946/7 as Bristol L5Gs. They were lengthened to 30ft (thus becoming LL5G) and rebodied by ECW in 1957, with a centre entrance version of the old ‘Queen Mary’ style of coach body last produced in 1952. They were fitted with 39 bus seats, and I believe replaced pre-war Leyland Tigers on the Scarborough sea front service.
They were as you say, nice looking vehicles and they must have come as a pleasant surprise to locals and tourists alike, as the buses simply exuded charm and more than a hint of class. It is amazing to think that those curvaceous bodies were all hand built by craftsmen. Their elegance leaves  many modern vehicle designs in the shade. How did they manage without computer-aided design and mass-production techniques? Very well indeed by the looks of it!

Brendan Smith

26/08/11 – 07:27

During the 1950’s and early 1960’s our family summer holidays were mostly in Scarborough, staying in the North Bay. Never mind roundabouts, donkey rides and amusement arcades, the highlight of my holiday would be being taken for a ride from Corner Cafe to Aquarium Top and back on one of these special Bristols. As a child, for a few years my ultimate ambition in life was to move to Scarborough and drive these buses on the 109 Seafront Service.
The reality would probably have been very different, and I suspect that though a steady job, it could have been rather tedious. But I was a child.
It was very sad when one day a few years later whilst out cycling, I called at Jackson’s scrapyard in Bradford and viewed with dismay the dismembered remains of one of these splendid machines in the blue livery of Clugston’s, the contractor. I was surprised to see that behind the ‘frowning’ front grille panel there was still the complete original Bristol L radiator shell and grille and bonnet.
It’s an old cliche I know, but if only one had survived into preservation……..

John Stringer

21/03/13 – 06:36

996 CHN

Talking of sad pictures of United’s special sea front Bristol L Types, here is 996 CHN, obviously at the end of its days in the junk yard in Northumberland. I think this one ended its days with Bedlington and District. Evidently the only thing wanted from this was its engine.

David Rhodes

22/03/13 – 17:00

After a period of no open toppers in Scarborough they were reintroduced by United using Bristol VRS. In the years following de-regulation several companies have run on the route East Yorkshire have used Routemasters Shoreline Suncruisers currently use Metrobuses in the eighties Applebys used a motley collection of older types including an ex Bristol Lodekka and ex Chester Fleetlines a pair of Southend Fleetlines a Park Royal bodied Fleetline from Sheffield and an ex Plymouth Atlantean Scarboro & District (East Yorks) use Alexander bodies Scanias currently

Chris Hough

Rotherham Corporation – Bristol L5G – CET 561 – 100


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Rotherham Corporation
1941
Bristol L5G
East Lancs B32C

Here’s a nice old one, probable one of the oldest buses in my collection.
I obviously didn’t take this picture as the bus was withdrawn in 1957 I did not start taking bus photos till 1965.
This bus has a center entrance, can somebody tell me what advantage there was in having a center entrance. They would have to lose two pairs of seats to make way for the entrance but then they could put in a 5 seat bench seat at the back of the bus so they gain one seat. But if the only gain is one seat was it worth it. Another query I have which maybe you can help me with is what is the purpose of the box under the front window on the opposite side to the cab it looks as if it contains oil could it be an automatic oiling system or something.

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

The box on the nearside, below the saloon window in an “Autovac” they were used on early Leyland and Bristol half cabs. They were to do with the braking system I believe.

Paul Ellender

Re the “Autovac” query this is a form of fuel supply, the square tank holding a reservoir of fuel drawn up from the main tank by vacuum.

Trevor Haigh

Many vehicles in this area were of the centre entrance configuration, in addition to several batches of Bristols Rotherham also had centre entrance single deck trolleybuses as did Mexborough and Swinton (who ran jointly with Rotherham on some routes).
West Riding had large numbers of centre door Regent double decks on Wakefield routes.
The advantage of this layout was quicker boarding and alighting times with both ends of the bus able to leave at the same time.
It should be remembered that this was long before a large scale move to one man operation and the necessary front entrance position so these buses were conductor operated.
The last similar vehicles were withdrawn by Rotherham in the late ’60s. There were some withdrawn ones there at the same time that their first Fleetline chassis were delivered before despatch to Roe

Andrew

Darlington Corporation had centre-entrance single-deck Guy Arabs right through the ’60s and before that, centre-entrance S/D trolley buses. Sunderland Corporation and, I believe, Hartlepool, too, had centre-entrance double-deckers.

Bill Taylor

Leeds had centre entrance saloons in the Fifties on underfloor engined chassis they had 2 Tiger Cubs 2 Guy Arab LUFs and 5 Reliances all with Roe bodywork seating 34 + up to 20 standees. They had the steepest steps I’ve ever seen on a bus. The stair well was inside the bus with the doors flush with the side panelling

Chris Hough

The Leeds vehicles were regarded as an experiment and were built on a mix of AEC Reliance, Leyland Tiger Cub and Guy Arab UF chassis. Three of the vehicles survive in a scrapyard – if you google ‘the wakefield files’ you’ll find them.

Andrew

Grimsby Corporation had quite a number of centre-entrance AEC/Roe double-deckers in the 1930s, as well as a unique fleet of ten 6-wheel AEC/Roe centre-entrance trolleybuses. They also had one of the very few AEC “Q” double-deckers with a Roe centre-entrance body, built in 1933 and still running in 1956. Since the engine was at the side, under the central staircase, there were lower deck seats beside the driver. I remember seeing this vehicle in service.
The biggest disadvantage of the centre-entrance design was the split staircase which took up a lot of space on the top deck, giving fewer seats on the top deck than the bottom. “Provincial Bus and Tram Album” by J. Joyce (1968) shows a 1931 Grimsby example as having only 48 seats, while the “Q” is listed as having 56 seats (H29/27C); the side engine didn’t take up passenger space.
Wakey Models makes resin kits of several variants of this type of vehicle, which can be seen at this link.

Martin S

The centre-entrance layout was greatly favoured by the Rotherham general manager who was in charge of the municipal transport department for many years, the redoubtable Tom Percy Sykes.
The bus shown in the picture happens to be one of the wartime Bristol chassis that was fitted with a post-war body removed from one of nine Bristol L6B’s that were rebodied as double-deckers not long after being delivered as 32-seat centre-entrance saloons. In the photo, although still in Rotherham livery, the bus is in second-owner service; I don’t have the information directly in front of me, but believe this was one of several similar ex-Rotherham single-deckers that ended their lives with Cosy Coaches, an independent operating in Meadowfield, County Durham. The blinds it is fitted with in the picture are not Rotherham ones, and the legal lettering on the nearside is not that of Rotherham Corporation.

Dave Careless

West Yorkshire – Bristol L5G – GWX 135 – 250


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1949
Bristol L5G
ECW DP31R

This Sunday a very different coach than you have been used to, West Yorkshire coaches were painted in cream & red rather than red & cream as the photo shows. This photo was taken before West Yorkshire  brought in their rather complicated fleet numbering system as there are no letters just numbers in this case 250, which seemed a good enough system for 90 odd percent of other operators, can not imagine why it wasn’t good enough for West Yorkshire.
Anyway in April 1954 this bus was renumbered from 250 to EG2 but then in January 1959 it was renumbered again to SG 152 obviously normal fleet numbering really would of been a better idea.
This bus was withdrawn from West Yorkshire in June 1961 and moved to Wales first with Turner of Cardiff until 1963 then to Bennet of Swansea then the trail goes cold. Unless you know, if you do, let me know, please leave a comment.

A full list including Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.

I think there were operational reasons for the 1954 re-numbering system. For example, in York City, all the Gardner engines were 5LW, which were, to say the least, slow. (Extremely reliable, of course, but no fireballs!). There was therefore a policy of allocating the Gardner 7.0 litre five cylinder engined vehicles (YDG’s) to certain routes, and the Bristol 8.1 litre six cylinder engined vehicles (YDB’s) to others.
The regulators who allocated the vehicles every morning would thus know immediately which vehicles to allocate to which routes, fleet numbers just on their own would have required the regulators to have a prior knowledge of the fleet make- up. In practice, all regulators would quickly have become familiar with the fleet make-up, of course, but new guys on the job, or staff who did the job only occasionally, would have found the new system easier.
Similarly, allocating vehicles to some country routes with narrow roads was easier if you knew immediately the bus width, (e.g. DB or SB – 7ft 6in wide rather than DBW or SBW – 8 ft wide), without having to remember.

Roy Burke

West Yorkshire – Bristol LL5G – JWU 888 – SGW 1


Photo by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

West Yorkshire Road Car Company 
1951
Bristol LL5G
ECW B39R

The LL was just a longer version of the L with a body width of 7′ 6″ the LW that had a body width of 8′ 0″ and the LWL was the longer 8ft wide version. This bus went into service at West Yorkshire’s Harrogate depot in 1951 with a fleet number of 418, it was in 1954 when the new different fleet numbering system came into being and 418 became SGW 1.

A full list of Bristol abbreviations can be seen here

By looking closely at the wheels of SGW1, it can be seen that they are inboard of the mudguards by quite a distance. This is due to it having an 8ft wide ECW body on a 7ft 6ins wide Bristol LL5G chassis. Quite a few of the ‘Tilling’ fleets operated such vehicles, as it was a way of utilising supplies of the outgoing narrower chassis, whilst taking advantage of the increase in overall vehicle width then recently introduced. The 8ft wide version of this body could be identified by its split rear window – which had a pillar down the centre – as opposed to the single piece version on the narrower body. Still a handsome looking bus though isn’t it?

Brendan Smith

As I’ve written elsewhere Brendan, in my opinion this design of body, in all its versions, was the finest looking and most practical of any in the “front engined” era – and constructed to the usual high ECW quality as well.

Chris Youhill

West Yorkshire – Bristol LWL6B – KWU 394 – SBW34


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1952
Bristol LWL6B
ECW B39R

Here we have a pair of Bristol Ls the one on the left is a 30ft long by 8ft wide version with a Bristol 8.1 litre 6 cylinder engine. The one on the right is a 1947 L5G registration EWY 431 fleet number SG115 this bus differs from the LWL6B by being a B35R 26ft long by 7ft 6in wide and having a Gardner 7.0 litre 5 cylinder engine. To say there is an age difference of 5 years between them there is not many changes body wise, but at that time just after the war all that was required were buses and as many of them as possible.

A full list including Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.

The reason for the very minor changes in these bodies, other than size and capacity, throughout their production run is a simple and exemplary one. They were an absolutely superb design, and the quality of the construction and of all the fittings was the best. Personally I also believe that they were the finest looking single deckers of the “front engined” era and also they combined the high quality and good looks with superb passenger flow, visibility and luggage space. A particularly appealing variant was the 31 seat coach, many examples of which were mounted,in addition to the Bristol majority, on Leyland PS1 chassis which made for another different but most attractive combination.

Chris Youhill

SG 115 was always one of the regular Yeadon depot based (EWY registration) Bristol L5Gs used on my school special afternoon service from Otley Grammar School to Burley-in-Wharfedale in the mid to late fifties. I have very fond memories of these buses and particularly remember the lovely purring noise when at speed with the clunk of the gear stick into overdrive 5th or would this be 4th? WYRCC always exuded to me a feeling of what a “Tilling” Company should be. Happy days.

Richard Fieldhouse

I share your acoustic memories of these fine vehicles Richard, and I remember the very first “EWY” registrations immediately after the War. I was just stunned by their clean lines and attractive and very functional interiors. As with all other Bristol Ls and Ks so fitted the fifth gear (nickname “supertop”) was actually an external overdrive in addition to the normal four speed box – this accounts for the glorious melodious tones when engaged. It was engaged from fourth gear (NOT through neutral) by moving the lever to the right and smartly forward. It was virtually essential to adjust the engine revs and to return to the main gearbox fourth position well before the bus stopped or you might well be “stuck” in overdrive. I am not an engineer, but I think this is an accurate description of the feature – if not I’d gladly welcome any correction.

Chris Youhill

31/01/11 – 15:05

Chris, many thanks for your description of how a driver selects 5th gear on a Bristol. I can well recall the action of the driver with the thrust forward of the gear stick which gave the clunk noise. I used to observe the driver from the front nearside seat of the bus which was always my favourite position.

Richard Fieldhouse

31/01/11 – 20:13

Chris, thanks from me, too, for your description of using the fifth gear on the Bristol Ls; like Richard, I always tried to get a seat which gave a view of the driver – my own favourite was offside front by the gangway – but I’ve forgotten the exact pedal procedure, (I never drove one). You say you needed to adjust the engine revs and return to fourth while the vehicle was still moving, but how, without a neutral between 4th and 5th?
Also, how universal was the mechanism? Was it fitted to all West Yorkshire Ls? I don’t remember the Y-WY L5Gs having it, but that may just be because they didn’t need it for town working, or it may be another instance of my creeping senility!

Roy Burke

01/02/11 – 05:37

Glad top be of help on the “supertop” query Richard and Roy. Returning to fourth gear from the overdrive did not involve neutral – but I omitted to mention that the clutch pedal had simply to be gently dipped and a very slight increase in revs applied and then the lever dropped easily and quietly into fourth gear. I can’t honestly say at what time the overdrive became available but I think that all L5Gs, pre and postwar, had it but possibly the JO5Gs did not – but I think that anywhere in York the traffic would be too heavy and slow to afford any opportunity for the use of the high ratio, and so the facility probably quietly remained “in reserve”.

Chris Youhill

01/02/11 – 05:38

I seem to remember reading an account of a North Western driver with one of their K5Gs in Stockport, who pushed his luck with 5th gear – letting speed drop lower than he should. I think a car pulled out in front of him, or something of that sort. There followed an anxious, painful, strangled grind to regain a speed sufficient to escape from 5th without the humiliation of having to abandon ship.

Stephen Ford

05/02/11 – 16:01

Chris, I have found your experience of the overdrive 5th on Bristols fascinating and am certain that all the WY Bristol JO5Gs and prewar L5Gs had an overdrive 5th gearbox. This feature only started to appear on the double decker Bristols around 1951. WYRCC fitted a 5 speed box to 1949 Bristol K6B 751 (DD Coach conversion 1951) and also to 1951 Bristol KSW6B 808 (DBW 3). Deliveries of later 1952/53 Bristol KSWs (LWR registered) had 5 speed gearboxes from new as did the later Bristol Lodekkas from DX3 onwards. (DX2 was delivered with a 4 speed box but converted to a 5 speed box in May 1954)

Richard Fieldhouse

06/02/11 – 05:44

I shall have the Kleenex out soon at these wonderful memories of such happy times. I was fortunate enough to be allowed into Grove Park just at the time when 751 was completed as a coach and was standing there resplendent and sensational in its rich cream and maroon. Then you mention the magnificent 808, DBW 3. I was still at school and lived in Ilkley when 806 – 9 were delivered and all were allocated to Ilkley, with white steering wheels to indicate 8’00″ wide. Initially they had open platforms and were returned to ECW later for doors to be fitted. They were glorious vehicles and if it was possible to improve on previous ECW deliveries they certainly achieved it in terms of interior fittings and finish.

Chris Youhill