Category: Photos

Sheffield Corporation – AEC Bridgemaster – 1925 WA – 525


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Sheffield Corporation
1961
AEC Bridgemaster
Park Royal H43/29F

I think this photo was taken when this bus was new it looks in very good condition to me. The angle of the shot does show up the very square and upright look of the Park Royal Bridgemaster. Why did the Bridgemaster have that small window to the left of the entrance doors (see D Oldfield update below) no other front entrance bus that I know of did. There must be a reason apart from just having a window otherwise moving the doors more into the saloon would be wasted space, bodybuilders do not waste space. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.

Reg no 1925 WA fleet no 525 was one of six Bridgmasters supplied to Sheffield Transport the other five were all rear entrance. It has been preserved.

George

I think there was a first batch of six, all rear entrance followed 2 years later by a one off front entrance.

Anonymous

I have a shot of a rear entrance Sheffield Bridgemaster so I will do more research and it will arrive shortly with full details.
In fact I have done the research and the bus arrived on Monday 3rd August, here is a link to it.

Peter

Sheffield Bridgemasters: 519-524 were rear entrance with a row of five rear facing seats, Lodekka style, at the front of the saloon. This covered the gearbox/differential housing – which can be seen at the front of the saloon of all traditional half-cabs. On Bridgemasters, this was extra large – hence the reason on the front entrance version for the doors to be set further back and the strange small window.
From a Sheffielder who travelled – at times – on all seven vehicles.

David Oldfield

This photo would have been taken by the corporations own photographer. It is taken outside the gates of Norfolk Park. The council took photos of all there new buses here. The East Bank, Shoreham Street and Queens Road depots were all less than a mile from here.

James Walker

06/07/12 – 07:20

This bus was often to be seen on the number 7 route to Stannington

Brian

03/10/13 – 08:49

I have conducted on 525 doing a few weddings this summer. Can any of your Sheffield experts tell me why the lower deck has a green interior including seats whilst the staircase and upper deck is red.

Geoff S

03/10/13 – 14:35

Because that was the standard post war interior colour scheme until 1959. Only in 1960, with 1325-1349, did the inside saloons begin to have a red scheme, but not all. This scheme only lasted until 1966 when the interiors were again changed – this time to blue on each deck. Why? I have to admit, I often wondered that myself but – as we were often told in the days, it is because it is!

David Oldfield

03/10/13 – 15:41

David, I remember the wheels being blue for a while too, due to local politics, but don’t think that would be the reason for the seats as the council was very red at the time.

Les Dickinson

04/10/13 – 06:11

True or not, Les, it’s the sort of childish behaviour we’ve come to expect from modern-day politicians! Some years, ago, when Big Ben was being renovated, it was found that the original paint applied to the clockfaces was blue. In the interests of historical accuracy, preparations were made to repaint them blue, until the non-Labour MP’s got to hear of it. They remained black! Of course, compromise could have made three of them red, blue and yellow respectively, with the other one…… pink!

Chris Hebbron

04/10/13 – 15:14

On the interiors, we have to remember the down stair seats were upholstered, whilst the upstairs were leather, so smokers would not damage them.
My personal choice was for red wheels with chrome rings, even though I come from the blue half of the city.

Andy Fisher

04/10/13 – 17:21

Blue half, Andy? That much?

David Oldfield

05/10/13 – 15:38

More like the blue 3/4 side.

Andy Fisher

22/10/13 – 17:37

Just thought I would let you know that the first vehicle in the fleet to have blue seats (moquette on both decks incidentally) was No 340, the Commercial Motor Show Atlantean exhibit of 1964. It was also the first to sport blue wheels. The Fleetline’s which came the same year had the normal red seats and wheels etc as did the Neepsend bodied Atlantean’s. It was 1966 that the blue seats and wheels were adopted as standard, the first vehicles being Park Royal and Neepsend bodied Atlantean’s and the Bedford VAS/Craven.

Trev Weckert

23/10/13 – 17:41

1925 WA_rear

It was never going to be as attractive as Kylie M’s rear aspect but interesting nevertheless. Seen here before final touches added after repaint.

John Darwent

24/10/13 – 07:50

I always think that this PRV design was the ugliest they ever came up with and one of the ugliest ever by anyone. It first graced Atlanteans then PD2s, Regent Vs and Tiger (PS1/PS2) rebuilds. Nevertheless, every time I see 525 I feel a great affection for it. Are the proportions better than on the East Kent Regent Vs? Does the livery suit it better? …..or am I just a big softie who remembers the old girl when she was brand new, doing the Herdings in Sheffield? […..and that is a fantastic photo, John.] I’d love to have a drive of her.

David Oldfield

26/10/13 – 07:22

I seem to remember seeing the rear open platform buses, at the bus stop on Olive Grove Road on the 101 Arbourthorne route. Service 28 & 43 also run from that stop. Rightly or wrongly I believed that they had some kind of air suspension that you could bounce up & down. Would this be so? My times catching the 43, they had Regent 5s with front operated doors, a handsome bus, but I never rode a Bridgemaster.

Andy Fisher

26/10/13 – 12:15

64-73 were, indeed, handsome buses. 1963 Regent V 2D2RA with Weymann Aurora bodywork. They were regular performers on the 28/43 group. [My Grandmother lived on the 28 route.] You are right about the air suspension on the Bridgemasters.

David Oldfield

29/10/13 – 07:38

973 FWJ

Here is 273 (originally 73) as mentioned by David above it is seen reversing at Lodge Moor Hospital on 20th January 1968.

Ian Wild

29/10/13 – 13:16

Thanks for that, Ian. I always thought that these were the best looking front loader AECs. 435-460 (1960s back loader Orions) were also handsome buses. A great pity that Sheffield never had front loader Roe bodies on their Regent Vs as the Park Royals were “unbalanced” and not at all attractive. Give me 64-73 any time.

David Oldfield

29/10/13 – 13:18

966 FWJ_lr

Here is an off side view of 66 (966 FWJ). What a day that was didn’t stop raining all day.

Peter

29/10/13 – 16:11

Totally agree, a handsome bus & the ones I remember. These were one of the first busses I remember that had the string pull bell, asking the passenger to stop the bus with one pull. There may have been other types, just that I did not ride them. I also think they had 2 door opening levers, one for the driver in the cab & one for the conductor on the bulkhead, or was there room for the driver to operate the bulkhead one. Of the Atlanteans of the era, I preferred the Park Royal bodywork.
There was a coach building firm on Penistone Road, on the right hand side just before the speedway track outbound. I think they made the 1965 c reg, on the Shiregreen route, may have been 47 & 48 routes. Their terminus was on Bridge Street. They had twin windows at the rear & also the upstairs emergency window & not a particularly good looking thing. Does anyone have any photos or information on the coach builder or pictures? I have pictures of them as part of streets scenes, but no information, as the subject matter was on how things looked at the time.

Andy Fisher

30/10/13 – 07:07

They were the Neepsend bodied PDR1/2 Atlanteans built between 1964 and 1966. There is still a misconception about Neepsend Coachworks. Cravens of Darnall came out of bus building after the 1950 Regent IIIs for Sheffield. At the suggestion of East Lancs own board of directors they came back in 1964 by buying all the shares of East Lancashire Coachbuilders from their three owner/directors. Cravens decided to create more capacity by building a new factory at Neepsend, Sheffield but to use East Lancs designs. Initially this was done by building up East Lancs parts but eventually everything was built in Sheffield for Neepsend bodies. This didn’t last for long and extra capacity was unnecessary – so Neepsend production had ceased by 1968. [Neepsend quality was apparently not up to Lancashire standards either.] East Lancs continued in Cravens ownership until Cravens themselves were bought by John Brown and the Trafalgar House. Eventually ownership passed to Drawlane – but Neepsend was long gone by this time.

David Oldfield

30/10/13 – 07:07

Penistone Road- That would be Neepsend (which is where they were) who suddenly appeared there in the 60’s- until ? They were part of East Lancs and possibly there was an incentive to open up there. The factory had see-through doors and bus skeletons would slowly appear for passers by and then be clad.

Joe

30/10/13 – 07:08

Andy, Neepsend Coachworks was on Penistone Road as you describe. Neepsend was a subsidiary of East Lancs Coachbuilders, Blackburn. They built two batches of bodies of 20 each on Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2 chassis for Sheffield in 1964/5/6. I thought they were good looking buses, better than the Park Royals as they had equal depth windows on each deck. Neepsend fitted new staircases to Sheffield Weymann bodied Regents 811 and 813 at a time when Queens Road was overwhelmed by such work on the batch of 40.

Ian Wild

30/10/13 – 11:52

Ian, Neepsend was not a subsidiary of East Lancs. This is one of the long standing misconceptions of bus industry history. The correct story is given above in great detail by David.

Roger Cox

31/10/13 – 07:11

David, thanks for the clarification over Neepsend ownership. Huddersfield had 16 CVG6LX delivered in 1966, half bodied by East Lancs and half by Neepsend. The bodies from each source were randomly distributed amongst the fleet numbers. I don’t recall either make of body being any worse than the other when it came to the first COF at 7 years

Ian Wild

31/10/13 – 08:16

That’s OK, Ian, there have been years of obfuscation over the ownership but, even as a kid in Sheffield when they were built, I was aware that they were “really” Cravens. East Lancs, being the higher profile name, people would, and did, jump to the wrong conclusion. To be strictly correct, both East Lancs AND Neepsend were independent subsidiaries of the holding company Cravens. [The details came from the East Lancs book from Venture (or was it TPC?).] It was common to mix and match East Lancs and Neepsend in an order – I think it happened at Southampton – which I think is bizarre, but I wasn’t running the company. Somehow, I’d missed out that Huddersfield had any – only took 57 years for me catch up!

David Oldfield

31/10/13 – 15:07

I think a great deal of the confusion comes from the fact that traditional East Lancs customers placed orders with that company and, because of either lack of space at the Blackburn factory or to give work to Neepsend, orders or part orders were dealt with by Neepsend. It would be interesting to know how much say the customer had in where the vehicle was bodied. I know that in the case of Stockport its 1967 order was split because the chassis, already delayed due to a large order book at Leyland, would have lingered for many months, or been bodied by another company, had half the order not been dealt with by Neepsend. The two batches were at least numbered one following from the other but it was widely understood over the ensuing years in service that the Sheffield product was inferior.

Phil Blinkhorn

02/11/13 – 17:57

I borrowed a book from the library on Firth Browns steel company. One of the separate companies, (from poor memory Firths) bought Cravens, as a way of placing their steel. It said they made railway carriages, trams & busses. It must have been early 1900s, because there was not a lot of bus activity, although expanding fast, but lots of the other forms of public transport. The next time I use the library, (I will have to be quick as Sheffield is closing numerous libraries, politics, do not get me started) I will get the book out again to research, unless you chaps know the answer.

Andy Fisher

07/11/13 – 15:25

Got the book now. John Brown of Firth Browns (world renown steel company here in Sheffield), bought Cravens in 1919. It was called at that time Cravens Train & Carriage Company or something similar. I am not sure if Sheffield had any busses in 1919, as trams ruled. He bought it when work was short in the steel industry. It enabled him to sell wheels, axles & springs to them.

Andy Fisher

07/11/13 – 17:55

Just returning to the point about East Lancs orders being fulfilled at Neepsend, it seems all the frames were supplied from East Lancs thus enhancing the widely held view of the relationship between the companies that had Neepsend as the junior partner.

Phil Blinkhorn

08/11/13 – 06:39

Phil. I would probably still call them the junior partner, they simply weren’t owned by, nor were they a subsidiary of, East Lancs. Both were owned by Cravens – but in terms of volume and life-span Neepsend was certainly the baby brother, dependent on its older sibling.

David Oldfield

08/11/13 – 06:39

There is of course an interesting thread on a Neepsend posting under the Bodybuilder section of the OBP site. Coincidentally, the final post is by one John Brown!

John Darwent

24/11/13 – 07:38

I have got another book which proves my presumption of no buses in 1920. It shows a Daimler, double decker, solid wheels, with Allen (Sheffield) bodywork, around 1912. Any more info from you gentlemen?

Andy Fisher

26/11/13 – 15:42

In my last posting I should have said my presumption of no buses pre 1920 was wrong. Sheffield Corporation took over the running of busses a few days after WW1 broke out, around the 7th of August 1914.
Did any other Corporations in other city’s do the same?

Andy Fisher

01/12/13 – 08:19

Lovely to see my favourite bus from my schoolboy days in the early Sixties is still alive and kicking! Driving down Wortley Road in Rotherham I could not believe my eyes when there she was parked waiting to pick up a wedding party! Who now owns her and where does she live? (the link at the top of his thread did not work when I tried it) I would love to visit her for old time sake and relive schoolboy memories.
I became acquainted with her and her six rear loading sisters on the 101,102 & 105 routes to Gleadless Townend/Herdings in 1962. I always wondered why the Bridgemasters were used on these routes, there being no overbridges on these routes. I never saw them on any other route but previous threads show they were.
The attraction about 525 to me was the lovely turbine like whining noise she made in top gear. this was not shared with her sisters, can anyone explain why. Does she still sound the same given she has been re-engined. You could always tell AECs because if the whining noise they made in lower gears but this top gear noise appeared to be unique to 525.
I had heard stories that she had been preserved but it was lovely to see her out and about again. What happened to her and her sisters after they left Sheffield and why was she the only one?

Andrew T

You are correct Andrew the link goes nowhere, I have deleted it. Thanks for that.

01/12/13 – 08:48

1925 WA is believed to be privately owned by a member of the Blackman family, and is sometimes used on wedding and other hires by the same family’s Halifax-based Yorkshire Heritage Buses.

John Stringer

02/12/13 – 13:32

John
Try the following website, www.yorkshireheritagebus.co.uk
Its the Yorkshire Heritage Bus Company based at Luddenden Foot between Sowerby Bridge and Hebden Bridge in the Calder Valley.
Their website shows 525 as part of their collection.
It appears to be minus its fleet number and Sheffield coat of arms on its sides.

Andrew T

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

26/02/17 – 07:09

I was placed on Sheffield 525 as a trainee conductor for about a week on the Herding’s route during the long, bad winter ( ice, more than snow )of 1963 ; very glad of the doors! She was a splendid beast all round I thought. Some years later, when driving, I never got a chance on her, but once volunteered, after duty, to drive 519 back from the centre to East Bank garage just to have a go on a Bridgemaster.
Sheffield, in those days, had transfers in the cab reading ‘Do not rest your foot on the clutch pedal’, and the way out-dated ‘ You are driving a covered top bus’ ! Overtime was referred to as ‘Suet’ for some strange reason.
All in all, Sheffield had a superbly well maintained and turned-out fleet, with staff always correctly attired. I later moved to Manchester Transport at Hyde Road garage and was shocked by both the road staff’s bad attitude and their disregard for full uniform dress. The culture shock also included finding that conductors there were known as ‘Guards’, not forgetting new words like ‘Demic’, meaning something, e.g. a bus, having broken down ” It’s a demic.”
One ‘guard’ I worked with there knew of the incident years before when a Sheffield single deck bus had crashed into, and brought down, part of the Manchester Victoria Railway Station facade. He said, The only good thing to come from Sheffield is the road to Manchester’. The fact that it is also used in reverse seemed not to have registered!
Of interest is that the Neepsend coachwork’s building on Penistone Road was still being completed after production had begun there when a new wall collapsed crushing some part-built bus bodies. That must have been in 1962 ?
I have some interesting correspondence from the late GM, Geoffrey Hilditch, whom I once met, regarding solving issues with Manchester’s trolleybuses and also the many problems adapting the former London Feltham trams to the Leeds system, but I don’t understand this site yet, so not sure where it should go.

Mike C

Sheffield Corporation – AEC Bridgemaster – 2522 WE – 522

Sheffield Corporation AEC Bridgemaster

Sheffield Corporation
1959
AEC Bridgemaster
Park Royal H45/31R

Here we have a shot of one of Sheffield Corporations rear entrance AEC Bridgemaster. There was a shot of a Sheffield front entrance earlier this year (link here) and we had 2 comments disputing information, so I have done a bit of research and come up with the following.
There was six rear entrance Bridgemasters fleet no 519 – 524, 519 was delivered January 1959 and the remaining 5 were delivered in February 1959. Incidentally there was only two other production chassis built before the Sheffield six one for each Walsall no 825 and Belfast no 550, there was five other chassis but they were for AEC themselves demonstrators and test vehicles I suspect. The chassis numbers for the six were 007 – 012, it is not until April 1961 and chassis number 104 that the one and only front entrance Bridgemaster for Sheffield was built making seven in total.
So I hope that this sorts out the query into the number of Sheffield Bridgemasters, (unless you know different), my thanks to Bus lists on the Web (see credits) for most of the information.

519-524 were rear entrance with a row of five rear facing seats, Lodekka style, at the front of the saloon. This covered the gearbox/differential housing – which can be seen at the front of the saloon of all traditional half-cabs. On Bridgemasters, this was extra large – hence the reason on the front entrance version for the doors to be set further back and the strange small window.

David Oldfield

04/05/11 – 07:02

519 was a Commercial Motor Show exhibit in November 1958 prior to delivery. It was something of a tradition for Sheffield to have a new vehicle exhibited at what was then a bi-annual show. These were Sheffield’s first 30ft long double deckers and initially operated for a number of years on the 101 and 102 services to Gleadless and Herdings. They were later moved to the Dinnington services 6 and 19 where their low height enabled them to operate under the low railway bridge at South Anston. They had air suspension on the rear axle which I recall gave quite a bouncy motion as passengers boarded and alighted.

Ian Wild

05/05/11 – 06:53

…..and they hissed audibly.

David Oldfield

I would like to mention that the AEC Bridgemaster No.519 was a show model at Earls Court in September 1958. In early December it arrived at Queens Road and one lunchtime I rushed to the Works to catch a sight of it. My reward was to see the Rolling Stock Engineer, Ted Bale, climb into the cab, saying he was taking it to Leadmill Road. Unfortunately, I was not invited aboard. Taking a 101 route AEC Regent III to city, I alighted near to the depot, arriving there to hear Ted tell the Regulator, “Do a changeover and put it straight into service” on the 101 or 102 Gleadless route. The date was around 10th-12th December 1958.

Keith Beeden

East Yorkshire – AEC Bridgemaster – 4700 AT – 700


Copyright Ian Wild.

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1961
AEC Bridgemaster B3RA 
Park Royal H45/28RD

One of East Yorkshire’s rear entrance AEC Bridgemasters. Just shows the Bridgemaster could look good given the right sort of livery, the Beverley Bar inward profile of the upper deck also helps. Photograph taken at Goole on 22nd February 1968.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

You are quite right. Why didn’t Park Royal think of it? The Beverley profile would have improved many of their 1960s offerings – not just the Bridgemaster.
But where are the number blinds? A strange omission for a normally very fastidious operator.

David Oldfield

I believe that East Yorkshire buses did not start showing route numbers until around 1963, although they were used internally and in the timetables. This was the reason that Hull Corporation had to renumber some of it’s routes in the 1 to 12 series in September, 1963.

Keith Easton

Yet another most nostalgic picture for me, as a lifelong admirer of EYMS, but from a different angle. Right up to my retirement in May 2001 I often worked this route from Arriva’s Selby Depot, and also from Pontefract. Despite quite an infrequent train service the confounded level crossing gates at Goole always seemed to be closed for an age, just so that the trains could enter and leave the adjacent station at walking pace !!

Chris Youhill

So was this a joint service between Arriva (presumably, formerly West Riding) and EYMS, or was it taken over from EYMS later? I don’t think EYMS operate to Selby today, do they?

Chris Barker

To be honest Chris B I’m not too sure about that as I only worked for Pontefract SYRT and the West Riding Depots from November 1987. Certainly though there was no sign of EYMS in Selby or Goole by then so presumably the 1986 De-regulation had caused that change. The intermediate destination blind on the Bridgemaster shows “Hemingbrough/Osgodby” and there was no EYMS presence on that road in my time, so this is an interesting query isn’t it ?

Chris Youhill

It was originally an EYMS service, but passed to West Riding, I believe in NBC rationalisation

Keith Easton

Thank you most sincerely for that explanation Keith – I’m somewhat embarrassed at not thinking of it as the NBC rationalisation scheme had some quite interesting effects here in West Yorkshire and nationally too. Its just another indication of how easily such dramatic changes can fade from the memory in the vast range of topics that are covered by we serious enthusiasts.

Chris Youhill

Yes, thanks for that. I’ve long thought that EYMS oozes interest, not only for its fleet but its history, operations, area of operation and not least the fact that it is still very much in business (independent business!) Long may it continue!

Chris Barker

The Hull to Selby route was numbered 4 by EYMS and was on licence BE3/15, so it must have been in operation prior to the 1930 Road Traffic Act, as it is in the original batch of licences granted to the company.

Keith Easton

28/06/11 – 06:29

Interesting comment on EYMS buses. I have just bought an EYMS bus a Yellow Peril MKH 84 for preservation need some work but will be worth it in the end.

Martin Chaplin

28/06/11 – 09:12

What a very enviable purchase Martin, and all the very best to you in your preservation work. My main memories of these magnificent vehicles is of travelling from Leeds to Bridlington in them when they were new and could be found on that route – with their fifty seats and enormous accommodation for holiday luggage. Later, when I was in the RAF at Patrington (Spurn Point) and occasionally “detached” to Bempton, one of these fine vehicles would appear on the last short journey from Bridlington to Bempton and, if memory serves, this journey operated at a different time almost every night of the week. What glorious days these were !!

Chris Youhill

29/06/11 – 07:00

Hi Martin, it will be great to see a “yellow peril” on the road again, the last time I saw one was in the late ‘seventies. I think that photos of the progress in the preservation would be most interesting and informative.

Keith Easton

13/02/12 – 07:29

I am also looking forward to seeing one of East Yorkshires most iconic vehicles in the shape of a “Yellow Peril ” back on the road. Hull born in 1952, I had the pleasure of growing up with the Titans, Regents, Bridgemasters and Renowns – travelled many times on the Yellow Perils particularly when they were used as our school buses from Hessle to Beverley Grammar School in the early 60’s. A pictorial diary of the restoration progress would be excellent. I wish Martin good luck with his project, and hope to see MKH 84 in all its glory in the near future, maybe then we can persuade OOC or EFE to produce its first Beverley Bar model.

John Eggleton

02/05/16 – 14:00

EYMS do currently run Goole to Selby on a Sunday, having won the contract from the council about 18 months ago.

Sam Eyers

23/05/16 – 07:38

EY BM
EY RG

I thought I would send these along to add to the EYMS archive. One sunny Saturday in September 1961, when I was 14, we had a family day out (West Yorkshire excursion) to Bridlington and I’d been lucky enough to borrow my older brother’s Zeiss camera, with which I snapped these. It seems odd that I only took two pictures, but there were only 12 shots on a film and the processing cost me four weeks’ pocket money. How different it is now with digital. The single decker was buzzing backwards and forwards all the time I was there, and what a handsome vehicle it was!

David Rhodes

29/05/16 – 05:44

Ian Wild’s excellent print of Bridgemaster 4700 AT was, of course, taken in Selby Market Place not Goole.

David A

29/05/16 – 15:52

Two lovely pictures David R and Bridlington bus station was a real gem in those days. The double decker is, of course, on the famous number 12 route from Hull via Driffield, Bridlington, Butlin’s Filey and Cayton Bay. The route survives to this day. The very celebrated single decker is one of the AEC Regals taken over with the business of Everingham Brothers of Pocklington, hence the East Riding registration as oppose to Hull, the norm for EYMS

Chris Youhill

South Wales – AEC Bridgemaster – WCY 890 – 1210


Copyright Bob Gell

South Wales Transport
1960
AEC Bridgemaster 2B3RA
Park Royal H43/29F

Now here is a shot of a bus somewhat out of its area, the photo of this South Wales Bridgemaster was taken in July 1969, in Dewsbury Bus Station. At the time it was working on Yorkshire Woolen district routes you can see the top blind displaying “Yorkshire”. I am not sure why YWD would need to hire/buy something so non-standard as the above for their fleet – shortage of vehicles for some reason perhaps or late delivery of new ones?
I would be interested to know the answer – no doubt someone will know and let me know.
Also in view is a 1967 West Riding Marshall B51F bodied Leyland Panther PSUR1/1 registration LHL 171F fleet number 171.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell

04/04/11 – 07:04

At the time Yorkshire Woollen had a severe vehicle crisis. In addition to the Bridgemasters from South Wale some vintage Bristol Ks from West Yorkshire were also acquired. In addition a number of former Sheffield C fleet buses also entered service these were PD2s with Roe and ECW bodywork and some early Atlanteans all tended to be used on local area routes in Dewsbury

Chris Hough

04/04/11 – 07:07

The reason why Yorkshire Woollen had these Bridgemasters was due to a severe shortage of buses.Later Bristol K double deckers were acquired from West Yorkshire and United Auto.

Philip Carlton

05/04/11 – 05:30

Thanks, Chris and Philip, for confirming that YWD needed to buy additional vehicles because of a shortage of buses. I think most enthusiasts know they had those problems, but how and why did they occur? Every operator’s fleet needs eventually to be replaced, and YWD would, (or certainly should), have had a well-established renewal programme, as did all BET companies. That was standard policy throughout the group. So what caused the ‘severe crisis’?

Roy Burke

08/04/11 – 05:00

Chris and Philip Thanks for the answer to my query – as you probably guessed, this was taken at the same time as the West Yorkshire K5G already posted.

Bob Gell

24/11/15 – 06:08

With regard to Roy Burke’s comment, the reason these things occur is generally twofold firstly manufacturers delivering buses late; secondly and particularly when the old CoF system was in operation a larger number of buses than that planned for could need replacing.
Of course the third reason is rarer but most to be feared: prohibitions on running vehicles by the Traffic Commissioner.
Some fleets seem more prone to vehicle shortage than others. at SMT/SOL/Eastern Scottish it seemed to be endemic.
Here we are talking about Yorkshire Woollen and I have a captcha ending in HD.

Stephen Allcroft

17/02/16 – 05:53

I am of an age that remembers the South Wales Bridgemasters coming to Yorkshire Woollen. The first one I saw was on the B&C services to Ossett from Fir Cottage and as someone who loves AEC buses and (Regent Vs) and still does it was hard to work out what was going until a really nice conductor told me saying “E lad we getting assorts coming, God knows what next” at this time various buses turned up on these routes ex Sheffield Atleanteans with I think regarding plates that began with BWB and buses from West Yorkshire which seemed to stay on the Thornhill Bristall A route but really at that time I think there was quite a shortage of new buses coming into service and as long as a bus turned up you didn’t bother where it came from but as a bus enthusiast it was paradise goodness knows how Central Works at Dewsbury knew where to find spares for them.

Dave Parkin

King Alfred – AEC Bridgemaster – 324 CAA

King Alfred - AEC Bridgemaster - 324 CAA

King Alfred Motor Services
1961
AEC Bridgemaster B3RA
Park Royal H45/29R

This photo was taken at the Broadway Winchester where so many others were taken over the years by a great many other enthusiasts I believe that it was taken in the mid seventies.
This bus was one of King Alfred’s second pair of AEC B3RA Bridgemasters with H45/29R bodies delivered in September 1961 the first pair being delivered in October 1959 followed in June1964 by a pair of Renowns both of which are preserved by FoKAB.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

A full list of Bridgemaster codes can be seen here.

22/09/13 – 11:26

To the best of my knowledge, the AV590s in Sheffield’s Regent Vs and Bridgemasters didn’t pose too much of a problem – as was also the case with most RMs. [Was the problem with the AH590 (and AH470) the same as Leyland originally had with moving of sump and peripherals in order to put the engine on it’s side?] Yes Roger, why couldn’t they get it right? […..but neither did Bristol…..]
Whatever the reason, re-reading Alan Townsin’s Blue Triangle, it almost seemed as if there was a self-imposed death wish with strategic planning at Southall – which ran straight into the arms of the grim reapers of Leyland. Why didn’t they develop a Bridgemaster height version of the RM? Why did they cave in to BET with the redesign from a classic to a classically dreadful design? Like Alan Townsin I am a sometimes critical lover of the Southall thoroughbreds – but I hold my head in despair when I see highly respected modern manufacturers who seem to revisit the same sorts of crass stupidity 50 years on!

David Oldfield

23/09/13 – 06:13

May I be allowed to say, or venture, or whisper that in its time the Bridgemaster was a fashionable design. Domey curves were out and the cantilever-looking front end was cute. What will our successors say about those curvy black glass bits today and as for the back end of the Borisbus…. all it needs is a dorsal fin!

Joe

23/09/13 – 08:53

Nice view, Dave. The bus doesn’t appear to have any of the Hants & Dorset features which were applied almost immediately when H&D took over KAMS in 1973, so this photo would have been taken, at the latest, mid April of that year.
Thanks for posting.

Pete Davies

25/09/13 – 07:17

I have to agree with David about the Southall death-wish, but I take the opposite view of how it manifested itself. Mechanically there was a lot of Routemaster in the Bridgemaster, and that was what put some buyers off – particularly the integral construction, and even more particularly the lack of choice of bodywork that that entailed. The Routemaster could not be sold on the open market because it was too complicated and too expensive, so why build a lowheight version? As for styling, they had to capitulate to BET because BET was The Market. The number of municipalities needing lowheight double deckers was limited, so if they couldn’t sell the Bridgemaster to BET, it was hardly worth having developed it in the first place. What was really needed was a lowheight Regent V. That eventually happened in the form of the Renown, but as well as coming far too late, I have been told that even that was over-engineered.

Peter Williamson

25/09/13 – 18:26

All very true, Peter. Perhaps the Renown/Regent path should have explored from the start. Those who stuck with the old (Renown) rather than the new (Fleetline) were certainly loyal fans. Unfortunately, by that time (especially with deckers) AEC was a busted flush. Merged? I think not.
The 6U3ZR Reliance was a seriously good coach – but it was out on a limb on its own. There were serious plans to offer the AV691 in the Bristol VR and the Daimler/Leyland Fleetline and the AH691 in the Bristol RE. Ulsterbus was interested in the latter. The bean counters of British Leyland put an end to those plans, just as they had to the FRM. [Dream on.]

David Oldfield

29/12/13 – 12:17

An unashamed plug, I know, but if you’re within striking distance of Winchester on New Year’s Day the biggest-ever King Alfred Running Day features among other delights the 1935 Albion Victor 20-seat coach AAA 756, whose return to Winchester was celebrated in April.
Another reason to come: 2014 is to be the last Winchester New Year’s RD; it will be replaced by a smaller-scale event each April.
Happy New Year to All.

Ian Thompson

Leicester City Transport – AEC Bridgemaster – 217 AJF – 217

217 AJF

Leicester City Transport
1961
AEC Bridgemaster B3RA
Park Royal H45/31R

217 AJF Leicester City 217 was one of the first vehicles to be delivered in the new cream livery with three maroon bands. It was withdrawn from service in 1971, worked for other companies until 1998 when it was bought for preservation and is now owned by individual members of the Leicester Transport Heritage Trust. It originally had only 72 seats but an additional row was inserted in the upper deck in 1963. It has been fully operational since 2011. More information can be found at this link.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

08/05/14 – 07:53

It just shows how even an ugly duckling like the Bridgemaster can be enhanced by a quality livery. Good to see it preserved and in running order.

Ian Wild

08/05/14 – 07:54

Isn’t this livery just much more dignified than the red/grey/white Leicester City Council corporate livery that came after? – we’ll paint our buses the same colour as our “bin waggons” because, presumably, we think our passengers are rubbish. When I first visited Leicester in 1984 the LCT operation had echoes of various conflicting past ages: Ultimate and Solomatic ticket machines; and, yes, conductor operation; but two-door buses abounded; and on some one man buses change was delivered down a chute from a change-giver situated by the driver’s left shoulder (Roger Cox – or indeed anybody living in Halifax late 60’s/early 70’s . . . or in fact in Leicester late 70’s-late 80’s! – will get the picture). LCT was the first time I saw drivers/conductors wearing flat-caps as a matter of course – now, around in First Leeds country, if I ever spot a driver wearing a cap, then the odds are in favour it being a non-uniform baseball cap.
In how many respects was the Bridgemaster a low-height-cut-price-Routemaster-for-the-provinces?
And what a bloody indulgence of LCT to buy a small number of buses they subsequently decided were non-standard (didn’t see that coming then!) and so dispose of prematurely . . . all on the backs of their rate-payers presumably.

Philip Rushworth

08/05/14 – 10:58

The Bridgemaster was an AEC/Park Royal integral model, but there the resemblance to the Routemaster stopped. Among the most obvious differences the Bridgemaster was only available with a manual gearbox, it did not have power steering, was a lowheight design and completely different in appearance!

Don McKeown

08/05/14 – 10:59

Phil They also bought AEC Renowns which also left early along with the non standard Daimler CSG6/30s bought in the early sixties.
Many years ago Leeds bin wagons were a very similar shade to the buses while the lighting dept used blue and the direct works dept used grey. Then in the late sixties early seventies everything apart from the buses went bright red. In Lancaster the bus shelters and the dust carts are still using Trafalgar blue the colour used for the buses from 1974 to their demise. Perhaps they overstocked!

Chris Hough

08/05/14 – 10:59

It is said that following the loan of a Sheffield Transport bus, the general manager of Leicester was so impressed with the blue and cream livery that he decided to adorn his buses with a virtually identical scheme in maroon and cream. Details of the Sheffield bus escape me at present, but what excellent taste that man had!

John Darwent

08/05/14 – 11:45

DBC 189C

Variations on a theme. DBC 189C was a H44/31F East Lancs bodied AEC Renown, new to Leicester City Transport in 1965. Around the mid to late 70’s. it was sold to Hunter of Seaton Delaval, and is pictured in service with them on the road between Earsdon and Seaton Delaval. Did it too start life in the rather smart version of the Leicester livery?

Ronnie Hoye

09/05/14 – 08:56

Ronnie. Yes. John. Could it have been one of Sheffield’s 519-524 batch of similar Bridgemasters? Sheffield never had any particular problems with either Regent Vs or Bridgemasters in their mountainous operating area – and all achieved a full working life (12/13 for Bridgemaster and 13-17 for Regent V).

David Oldfield

09/05/14 – 08:56

The previous Leicester livery was not unlike the Hunters livery with the window surrounds in cream and the rest in maroon.

Chris Hough

09/05/14 – 09:58


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

David – May well have been a Sheffield Bridgemaster on loan.  Pretty similar apart from opening top deck front windows. Go compare.

John Darwent

09/05/14 – 12:46

…..and as Ian said, at the top, what a difference a livery can make – just like on the Orion. Even 525, of the ugliest of PRV designs, looks good in STD livery – as it still does in preservation.

Question for all our experts out there. Recent reading has brought up an number of “forgotten” facts. One is the legislation requiring a downstairs emergency exit on 30′ long deckers. The Leicester Bridgemaster has one behind the driver’s cab, the “normal” position. Apart from those with platform doors – where the emergency exit was a door at the rear of the platform – only the Alexander Regent Vs of Sheffield had the additional emergency exit behind the driver. Why? Did the legislation come in during the course of 1960? STD’s Roe and Weymann Regent Vs arrived between January and April 1960. The Alexanders were the last to arrive, again in April.

David Oldfield

10/05/14 – 08:59

Leeds later 30 foot vehicles had an emergency window in the first bay on the offside rather like an upper deck emergency window

Chris Hough

10/05/14 – 08:59

Dont know for certain, David. By 1960 the NGT Group had entered the world of the Atlantean. The lower deck emergency exit was on the O/S between the rear axle and the engine. The only half cabs required to have an emergency exit on the lower deck were the SDO R/D Burlingham bodied PD3’s. They had a door on the back at the foot of the stairs, the Routemasters (O/S rear behind the axle, and the Ex East Yorkshire Renowns (centre rear). The Orion bodied PD3’s had the standard cut away section of the open platform which extended round the back, and allowed an escape route should the vehicle end up on its side.

Ronnie Hoye

10/05/14 – 08:59

The requirement for an additional emergency exit must have come in around 1959. The Leeds PD3s with Roe bodies didn’t have it but the tram replacement Daimlers in the reversed UA series did.

David Beilby

10/05/14 – 12:36

Thanks chaps. I was aware of the Leeds vehicles, Chris and David. Still anecdotal though. We’ve not pinned down a date, just more or less confirmed it by detection.

David Oldfield

11/05/14 – 08:21

There’s a small booklet that was produced by the Leicester Transport Heritage Trust in 2011 called “Maroon to Cream”, The Story of Leicester City Transport’s Livery Change, by Mike Greenwood, which details the revision to the Leicester livery and highlights the Sheffield connection; it’s a fascinating little booklet that is well worth a read.

Dave Careless

11/05/14 – 08:22

Off-subject though this may be, I query the random positioning of front number plates on buses, and whether they were perhaps not subject to he Construction and use Regulations by which cars and motorcycles were bound.
Above we see Leicester Corp. Bridgemasters cast their plate high above the cab, under the destination indicator, BTC oft used a square plate slung the left under the cab, where the standard spot was at the base of the radiator – sometimes actually attached to the grille.
The only two ‘lets’ which I know to have been permitted in commercials, have been the rear plate of pantechnicons mounted atop the roof at right, and London Transport bypassing the white and yellow plates prescribed for all other vehicles in GB, by continuing with white on black. These allowances must have been arranged by the most complex legal wrangling and alteration of otherwise immutable law.
Thanks to all correspondents.who make this such a lively forum, with remarkable knowledge of the minutiae of omnibology and simply wonderful archive photographs, now saved for posterity by their exposure in OBP.

Victor Brumby

11/05/14 – 17:38

Leeds buses had a square registration plate affixed under the cab windscreen. However All the exposed radiator MCW Orion stock had a straight plate under the windscreen. The 60 all Leyland Titans had a transfer straight number plate under the cab window. The concealed radiator Daimler had a plate at the bottom of the tin front later Daimlers with Manchester style cowls reverted to the square cast plate. Later concealed Titans and Regents had their plates at the bottom of their tin fronts. All rear entrance buses had a square plate in the offside rear corner. These were usually painted. The last rear entrance Leeds buses 1966 AEC Regent had an illuminated plate over the rear platform window. All rear engined types had a plate at the bottom of the front dash positioned between the tow points. All rear engined deckers had a rear plate over the back window.

Chris Hough

12/05/14 – 08:34

Lincoln Corporation`s four Bridgemasters followed on from Leicester`s final batch by chassis nos. Does anyone know if they were cancelled by Leicester?
Lincoln were wedded to Leyland/Roe products and went back to them for several years. I have always wondered if they bought them at a bargain price, particularly as they were in the same traffic area and maybe the general managers were good pals?

Steve Milner

12/05/14 – 08:40

Manchester had square plates under the cab window as radiators were exchanged from time to time. There is a photo in The Manchester Bus of a vehicle carrying two different registrations after Burlingham delivered the first batch of the 1958 PD2s with plates on the bottom of the radiator and a swap was done later with a radiator for a 1959 Orion bodied PD2 and the mechanic failed to remove the plate from the original vehicle which would , along with its new radiator, have received the standard square plate. This left the newer vehicle with a correct UNB registration and an incorrect TNA one. The second batch of 1958 PD2s received square plates prior to delivery after Burlingham were reminded of Manchester’s requirements.
I don’t know of any hard and fast rules prior to the introduction of reflective plates, by which time, of course, front engined buses were being phased out by the manufacturers.

Phil Blinkhorn

London Transport – AEC 664T – CUL 260 – 260

London Transport - AEC 664T - CUL 260 - 260

London Transport
1936
AEC 664T
Metro-Cammell H40/30R

This representative of London’s once extensive trolleybus system is a London Transport class C2 AEC 664T (chassis number 168) with a Metro-Cammell H40/30R body. The 664T chassis design was a close relative of the six wheeled LT class Renown that the LPTB also operated in large numbers.
CUL 260, fleet no. 260, arrived new on 2 July 1936, reputedly costing the sum of £2,286.3s.8d., and operated for its entire life out of Stonebridge Park depot (previously a tram “shed”) until its withdrawal on 27 August 1959. It was originally selected for preservation by London Transport, but then rejected in favour of “All Leyland” K2 type 1253, EXV 253, H40/30R, of 1938. Consequently, on 18 July 1962 CUL 260 was sold for scrap to the George Cohen 600 Group, but two enthusiasts, Tony Belton and Fred Ivey, stepped in literally at the last minute as the trolley was being hitched to the Cohen’s tow wagon at Clapham. They bought it, and arranged for its safe transport to secure premises elsewhere.
This picture shows it being towed away from Clapham on 1 August 1962 over the John Rennie London Bridge of 1831, now “recreated” in Arizona on a concrete substructure. www.flickr.com/photos/ 
Alfred Smith of Smith’s Coaches, Reading, kindly allowed the storage of 260 at his Basingstoke Road depot for several years, and Tony Belton acquired Smith’s Duple bodied Dennis Lancet III KJH 900 for use as a tow vehicle to take the trolleybus about. Sadly, it seems that this Lancet no longer survives. In the heading photograph trolleybus 260 is seen at Madeira Drive, Brighton on 1 May 1966, when it won the award for the best restoration of the past year. Today 260 is resident at The East Anglia Transport Museum, Carlton Colville, Lowestoft.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

19/12/19 – 05:43

If any of the so called Experts of the period are still alive, I wonder if they now regret telling Trolleybus operators to get rid of them?

Ronnie Hoye

20/12/19 – 06:33

I recall you and I (and others) covering this subject, Ronnie, in another post, in 2012 no less!
Link is: //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=14275

Chris Hebbron

28/12/19 – 06:14

I remember the London trolleybus being towed to Brighton in respect of the 1966 HCVC (now HCVS) London to Brighton Run.I recall the following year, two preserved trolleybuses were towed to Brighton for the run namely a Brighton one & a then newly restored Derby Corporation utility (both four wheelers). Sadly I do not think since 1967 a trolleybus has taken part in the annual Brighton run, I would love to be proved wrong with my statement!

Andrew Spriggs

11/02/20 – 07:01

My friend’s Dad was in the City of London Police, and he was told that the reason trolleybuses had to go from London was if there was a nuclear attack, diesel buses could disperse people much further because they weren’t restricted to the overhead wires.
I bid the last trolleybus a tearful goodbye at Isleworth depot when London’s final trolley routes were closed.

Steve Bacon

11/02/20 – 13:34

I have never been a Londoner, and therefore don’t have a good grasp of the route system (present and ever-changing, or historical) but even to me, Hammersmith via Acton & Cricklewood (in that order) sounds geographically strange. Shouldn’t it be Hammersmith via Cricklewood (first) and Acton (second)? I could understand it with separate destination and routing blinds, but this is all on one display. Or is this another bit of esoteric London Transport lore to confuse us provincial types?!

Stephen Ford

15/02/20 – 06:28

Trolleybus route 660 ran from North Finchley via Finchley, Golders Green, Childs Hill, Cricklewood, Willesden Green, Craven Park Junction, Harlesden, Acton Vale and Ravenscourt Park to Hammersmith (and back again!) My high mileage memory, though not yet an MOT failure, has been rewardingly refreshed by the following site:- www.angelfire.com/

Roger Cox

Portsmouth Corporation – AEC 663T – RV 4663 – 215

Photo from the T. Dethridge Collection

Portsmouth Corporation
1934
AEC 663T
Metro Cammell H32/28R

This impressive beast is Portsmouth Corporation 215 an AEC663T/Metro-Cammell H32/28R trolleybus from 1934. Originally delivered as 15, it was last of a group of trolleybuses of different makes of 2 and 3-axled chassis (AEC, Sunbeam, Leyland and Karrier), with different electrics and bodies (Metro Cammell and English Electric) to evaluate the most suitable for the future fleet. It was re-numbered 215 in 1938 and lent to Pontypridd UDC, along with some of its other non-standard stable mates, from 1942-46. Shown here in its maroon/white with grey roof livery, straight from the paint shop at Eastney Depot in 1949, it was scrapped in 1952. As for the evaluation, although the main fleet centred on 2-axled AEC/BUT chassis, most (100) were bodied with non-evaluated Craven bodies, with a sprinkling (9) of English Electric and, postwar, (15) Burlingham bodies! One non-standard (No.1) and one Burlingham example (No.313) survive, but, sadly, not one Craven example, the mainstay of the trolleybus fleet. The whole network was swept away, in 1963, by Leyland/MCW Atlanteans. The unexpected one-year delay in delivery of these, caused by a disastrous fire at Addlestone, resulted in a very sad-looking trolleybus fleet and a great maintenance effort to keep the vehicles in one piece and capable of moving!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

10/02/11 – 17:12

Portsmouth Corporation had a wonderful livery displayed to perfection by their paint shop work on 215 in 1949. I visited Portsmouth for a day in 1963 to ride on the remaining routes and still recall the wonderful livery of the AEC 661T/Craven and BUT9611T/Burlingham trolleybuses even at this time.
I wonder what decision criteria were used by the Portsmouth managers in 1934 to choose a 2 axle fleet rather than 3 axle fleet of trolleybuses. The 3 axle trolleybus was able to accept the higher starting forces from the traction motor but perhaps this was not recognised at the time. The single worm drive differential on a 2 axle trolleybus was always subjected to much greater forces than that on a motor bus.
I do believe that 3 axle trolleybus fleets had less trouble with drive failures than those with 2 axle fleets and these were compounded with the longer length 2 axle types which appeared in 1954. I do believe Sunbeam addressed this single axle drive problem by introducing a double reduction epicyclic differential axle. I do believe these appeared in Walsall, Glasgow, Belfast and Bradford. Can this be confirmed?
I do know these axles made a growling noise but nothing as loud as a Bradford AEC661T “Regen”.

Richard Fieldhouse

10/02/11 – 17:13

Thanks Chris for this wonderful shot of the 663T.
The early PCT experimental fleet was quite fascinating, as, although not unique by any means, early trolleybus operators tended to purchase “experimental” fleets, and PCT`s such fleet was quite extensive!
The MCCW bodies were obviously metal framed, whereas I believe, that the English Electric ones were composite. This gave them another feature to work out and study, as well as the chassis and equipment suppliers, giving them more reliable data before placing further orders.
The subsequent 9 English Electric 661Ts were metal (I believe), as were the Cravens, but I am wondering why the change to Cravens was made. Was it simply cost based, or did PCT have similar problems to other operators of EEC metal bodies. Perhaps they had picked up rumours, and were “scared off”. Who knows?
A fascinating post, for which many thanks.

John Whitaker

04/03/11 – 07:22

Lovely shot of this Portsmouth trolleybus, as repainted post-war after it’s war-time loan to Pontypridd UDC with the other three six-wheelers. Three of the four returned to service after loan, but one did not (212, an AEC 663T/EEC).
Incidentally all the 15 mixed test vehicles and the following 9 AEC 661Ts did not have manoeuvring batteries and were all stored from 1940 through the war on wasteland at Hilsea (apart from the six-wheelers sent to Pontypridd). They were all returned to service from 1945 onwards.
I have always been fascinated by the very mixed bag of trolleybuses taken as the experimental batch of 15 by Portsmouth. It was not an even spread of orders. Four AEC 2-axles, all with the same body make. Three Leyland 2-axles, also with the same body make. Then variety is brought in – Two Karrier 2-axle, each with a different body; Four Sunbeams, but two are 2-axle and two are 3-axle, and each pair has different bodywork, and two AEC 3-axle, also with different bodies. It doesn’t seem to give a fair spread to assessing the necessary qualities. And the choice of chassis make fell to the supplier of the highest quantity! (AEC).
It seems to have been common for municipals to try out an experimental batch of trolleybuses in the 1930s. But the rest had more “equal” fleets of trial vehicles. Take Belfast, which in 1938 took pairs of 3-axle Crossleys, Guys, Karriers, Leylands, AECs, Daimlers and Sunbeams. The bodywork contracts weren’t so evenly spread, but then Harkness might be expected to corner the market there.
Reading made do with just six in 1936, of which two were Sunbeam (but one I think was an ex-demonstrator, so that may have been an influence), and then one each of AEC, Guy, Leyland and Ransomes. All were two-axle and Park Royal bodied the lot. In spite of two Sunbeams the next bulk order went to AEC.
Bournemouth had just four trial trolleybuses in 1933, one Sunbeam 3-axle, one AEC three-axle, one AEC two-axle, and one Thonycroft single-decker – a very odd choice. But the point is that, compared to Portsmouth, there is a “one of each” approach going on. Both of the AECs were converted to a motorbus (petrol)in 1936, and the next bulk orders went to Sunbeam.
Walsall had two AEC and two Guy three-axle vehicles for their tests in 1931, again a fair share to trial – they then chose Sunbeam for their main orders!
It’s difficult to imagine what kind of committee sat down with manufacturer’s catalogues and selected the chosen makes for these trials in each city. But we can make sense of those that decided “one of each” or “two of each” – but the Portsmouth mix seems to defy any of that kind of logic! But it’s what keeps us interested as observers of these events of the past.
Incidentally I have never read any other account than that the Corporation chose Cravens for the batch of 76 plus the 30 Leyland TD4s because of obtaining appropriate delivery dates. No mention has been made of EEC build quality.

Michael Hampton

04/03/11 – 17:19

Interesting comments, observations and comparisons, Michael, much appreciated. As it happens, logical or not, their choice of bodywork for the main fleet, Cravens, was as sound as the bodies turned out to be, lasting around 25 years, although some re-building was necessary.
I never realised that the non-standard vehicles were parked on wasteland for the duration.
I also never realised that the other vehicles, especially the second batch, the 9 AEC 661T’s, lacked off-line manoeuvring ability. I always felt rather sad about them, living a rather shady life and always giving off an air of neglect – I’m not sure whether all of them were ever repainted. Considering the far less use they got, this was surprising. I always thought them the nicest looking of all the trolleys, even in comparison with the later Burlingham-bodied examples. The Pontypridd escapade fascinates me. Can you imagine the towing of these large six-wheel vehicles over to Bristol, over the Aust Ferry, then up the valley to Pontypridd, an estimated 150 miles without motorway or Severn bridges. Or, if the Aust Ferry wasn’t man for the job, a journey via Gloucester would have entailed a 190 mile slog! I daresay these journeys were not without incident!

Chris Hebbron

04/03/11 – 18:13

Don’t forget that every one of the Cravens trolleybuses would have been towed down the even greater distance from Sheffield! Towing trolleybuses would have been an everyday occurrence in those days – think about Glasgow’s with Weymann bodies!

David Beilby

06/03/11 – 08:13

And, of course, the chassis would have had to be towed to the bodybuilders first!

Chris Hebbron

06/03/11 – 09:16

Wartime loans fascinate me too Chris!
Bournemouth trolleys running in Newcastle, Southend in Bradford, Hull in Pontypridd. Quite a few examples and some interesting pre-motorway routes to plan!

John Whitaker

06/03/11 – 11:52

You raise in my mind an interesting point, John. If Pompey sent its four six–wheelers to Pontypridd and Hull also sent some, what was the reason? AS a UDC (Urban District Council), it’s hard to believe it had a large fleet of vehicles, especially trolleybuses, and enemy action seems unlikely to be a significant cause, was it an upsurge in coal production and colliers, mainly impressed (and probably unimpressed!) Bevin Boys?

Chris Hebbron

07/03/11 – 08:33

Re. wartime loans of trolleybuses.
Good point Chris.
I can only assume that the resort towns had surplus vehicles in wartime, whereas the industrial areas needed extra capacity. Where that leaves Portsmouth, itself a prime target for the Luftwaffe, I do not know. Southsea is, I suppose, a resort, but Portsmouth as a whole would have had quite a lot of industrial activity apart from the Naval dockyard (?)

John Whitaker

07/03/11 – 08:37

The bus fleet in Pontypridd exploded (if I can use that term) during the war. The fleet strength in 1966 was 53 yet during the war they received 21 utility double-deckers and 2 unfrozen double-deckers. There were also eight utility trolleybuses which became the postwar fleet but they were really used to replace the pre-war fleet which it must be remembered was mainly single-deck EE vehicles which later moved to Cardiff, as well as releasing the loaned vehicles. There had been 8 LT ST-types on loan as well.
This reflects the boom in demand during the war years, with local collieries and factories working flat out and therefore a greater need for transport. It’s probable that not only were more people travelling but also they were travelling further – there was certainly a lot of long distance travelling to the various Royal Ordnance Factories.
The trolleybus route served very little directly and the way the traffic on that route expanded was probably more complex. The southern end of the route at Treforest was a long way from Treforest Trading Estate which was a major source of employment at the time and therefore would not have been used to take people there. Maritime Colliery in the centre of Pontypridd would have generated some traffic but its location in the centre of town means workers could have come from anywhere. Albion Colliery was the only large colliery directly served by the route and was at the northern terminus at Cilfynydd.

David Beilby

07/03/11 – 09:27

John – Your post triggered something else in the back of my mind about Bournemouth trolleybuses on war loan. No fewer than 18 of them were lent to London Transport between December 1940 and September 1942, partly being relieved by some new ones destined for South Africa being diverted to London. Braking-wise, they were not up to the job of London’s demands. They had to go to Ilford Depot because of their exceptional height – 15′ 11″! Ilford had no routes which went under low bridges.

Chris Hebbron

08/03/11 – 06:05

John W – CPPTD lent some 3-4 TSM buses to London around the Blitz for six months and a couple more locally towards the end of the war. They lost several buses when Eastney Bus Depot was bombed (including the sole AEC Regent they ever owned!). They then took in 10 Bedford OWBs and 9 Daimler CWA6’s in the middle of the war, but I would say that they were well positioned with trolleybuses. They also had some Leyland Lynxes surplus from sea front duties, but I don’t know if they were ever used in anger! So the fleet just about remained the same or slightly larger. This doesn’t really answer the question about pressure in maintaining services, though.

Thx, David B, for a wonderfully detailed picture about Ponypridd’s situation in the war. It goes to show how a war can distort situations and produce hotspots which, in normal times, would never arise. I’ve seen photos of LT ST’s all over the place in wartime, but never any in Pontypridd, not even by that ubiquitous bus photographer, DWK Jones!

Chris Hebbron

Bradford Corporation – AEC 661T – AAK 422 – 620


R F Mack

Bradford Corporation Transport
1935
AEC 661T
English Electric H32/26R

We all have our personal favourites as far as buses are concerned, and I have to confess that mine are, (or were), trolleybuses.
Amongst my earliest memories were the late war years in Bradford, where I so clearly recall the sight, and sound, of Bradford’s “Regen” trolleybuses. These were AEC 661T types based at my home depot of Duckworth Lane, and were unlike any trolleybuses anywhere else, as they made a NOISE. Their mournful wail could be heard for miles about, especially when braking, and this was due to the double reduction rear axle and full regenerative control. How Bradfordians distinguished them from the Air Raid “all clear” signal I shall never know! They were new in 2 batches, in 1934 (597-617 KY 8200-8220) and 1935 (618-632 AAK 420-434), and carried early examples of English Electric metal framed bodies, which recent research has discovered, were extremely troublesome right from the off. English Electric metal bodies at that time did not benefit from the expertise demonstrated in the products of Metro Cammel. Having said that, the situation was not helped by tight and hilly schedules, the aforesaid unusual double reduction rear axles, and the fully regenerative control, such that these bodies were virtually shaken to bits after a troublesome 10 year life on Bradford’s granite setts.
Failures were occurring at an alarming rate by the war years, and BCT received permission to rebody 9 of them with Brush utility bodies in 1944, during which process, the regenerative control was reduced. The remainder were rebodied by Northern Coachbuilders in 2 styles, between 1946 and 1949, the last of the English Electric all metal bodies being consigned to scrap in 1947, and these trolleybuses, with their composite bodies, then settled down to a “second life” which was to last into the 1960s.
They still made plenty of noise in their new guise and being a regular rider to school, each one developed its own character for me, and they became firm friends. Sad, I know!

I attach a poor quality Brownie Box photo of 606, one of the Brush rebodies, and always my favourites, taken on a quiet 1953 Sunday morning. This photograph is full of nostalgia for me, especially as it was one of the last to carry the older Tattam livery with cream bands and rear dome.
Happy Days! If only I could ride on one again at Sandtoft!

Photographs and Copy contributed by John Whitaker

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

Not sad at all – some vehicles, just like people, have characters and the more eccentric ones get recalled the most! How amazing that permission was given to re-body vehicles while the war was on, something I’ve not previously heard of.
I always had a soft spot for the London United Tramways (later LT) A1 and A2 class ‘Diddler’ trolleybuses, unique and also frail bodywise!

Chris Hebbron

Fear not John, as Chris H rightly says there’s nothing sad in being fortunate enough to be able to recognise the characteristics of vehicles. It is a fact that, even in large batches of brand new ones, individual machines very quickly display their own particular “natures.” As a teenager on frequent visits to relations in South London I was also totally fascinated by the “Diddlers” on outings to Hampton Court and the area.

Chris Youhill

Thanks Chris H and Chris Y for the reassuring remarks about my deceased friends!! Good to know that other enthusiasts are just as moved as myself when referring to man-made inanimate objects !!

Thanks for comments about London “Diddlers” from Chris Y and Chris H. I too was fascinated by them, but never saw them “in the flesh”. I hold my very fleeting memories of Bradfords EEC 6 wheelers, and single deckers in the same light, as I can only just remember them. It would be great to hear about other trolleybus interests from fellow enthusiasts, as my enthusiasm is for anything old in the psv line, including trams!

But I wont go there!

John Whitaker

Chris Hebbron raises an interesting point re. re-bodying of vehicles during WW2. The MOWT (Ministry of War Transport) controlled all allocations of chassis and body manufacture, and supply to customers. I doubt whether operators had much say in most cases; Body builders were allocated orders in batches, and hence Pickering, for example, built small numbers of utility bodies in 1942/3 on unfrozen, and early Guy Arabs, (including a minority on Mk2 chassis), they disappeared again until late 1945, when they were allocated a contract for relaxed single deck utility bodies on Albion chassis, for Scottish operators.
East Lancs were used for re-bodying only, several fleets receiving all metal bodies on reconditioned chassis (mainly AEC) to almost peacetime standard. Brush were unusual, but not unique, in being used for new and reconditioned chassis, viz the Bradford trolleybuses and early AEC Regents for Birmingham. Bradford had 10 AEC Regents with all metal English Electric bodies which dated from 1935/6, and these were just as worn out as their trolleybus cousins by 1944, such that 7 were given new East Lancs bodies that year. I intend to look at the English Electric situation as far as metal framed bodies are concerned, as there were other disasters, notably with a batch of TD3/TD3c buses for Burnley Colne and Nelson JTC. I will submit a post on the subject if there is sufficient interest.

John Whitaker

I was delighted to see the Bradford AEC 661T “Regens” 620 and 606 posted on this web site by my best friend John. These were my favourite group of trolleybuses as they made a loud noise and had regenerative braking. Over the last few years I have been doing research into the early years of these trolleybuses 597 to 632 built 1934/35. My findings have been published in the Journal of the Bradford Trolleybus Association “Trackless” 200 to 205 inc. and 211. I can confirm the double reduction differential rear axle drive and the fierce regenerative braking were the main contributory factors leading to the failure of their EEC metal-framed bodies. The noise and vibration made it impossible for passengers to have a conversation inside these trolleybuses when running at speed, such as from Springhead Road to Bell Dean Road on the Thornton route. This leads me to ponder why Bradford specified a double reduction differential drive when a single worm drive differential was working quietly and efficiently on a very similar AEC 661T/EEC in London, namely LTPB 63 delivered some months earlier.

Richard Fieldhouse

This site has certainly brought back some memories.
I served an apprenticeship with the English Electric Co. at the Thornbury works in Bradford in the late 50’s. The Trolleybus motors kept the Traction Department busy for many years.
I recall working on the motors in both production and refurbishment and for it’s output it was very compact, good for it’s purpose, but a pain to work on. A common fault with motors returned for Overhaul was the “Square Commutator” Not really square but appearing so due to abnormal wear on opposite sides. Caused it turned out by slightly eccentric brake drums on some vehicles resulting in the motors always stopping and starting at the same point in it’s rotation.

Phil Johnson

Amazing the sort of problems which crop up – I should think it required some thinking about to identify THAT problem!

Chris Hebbron

I found Phils’ comments and experience at the English Electric Co at Thornbury most interesting and wonder which type of trolleybus traction motors were being overhauled and who were the regular customers. Can I assume Bradford City Transport was a regular as it was a loyal supporter of English Electric traction equipment?

Richard Fieldhouse

19/04/11 – 19:20

In the comments on the page for Bradford Corporation AEC661T trolleybuses, some correspondents mention the LUT “Diddler” trolleybuses. In 1962 the last trolleybuses were withdrawn in London and living in a road near the last trolleybus route to close I took my 18 month old son to see the last trolleybus from Hammersmith to the depot at Fulwell. In the event the modern bus was preceded by a “Diddler” from the London Transport Museum decorated with bunting, etc. as for its opening day. Alas, my son does not recall the sight.
For those of you who are interested, if you log on to the “You Tube” website and type in the Search Box “Twickenham Trolleybuses” (without the quotes) there is a film of the first day of operation of the diddlers taken in 1932. It is in black and white and, originally, was silent but a sound track of 1930’s band music has been added.
If you look carefully you will notice that they do not have headlights but it was shortly afterwards at the insistence of the police that a single headlight was put in the centre of the panel replacing the radiator on a IC engined bus.

Phi Jones

Bradford Corporation – AEC 661T – KY 8210 – 607 & AAK 422 – 620

Copyright J A Pitts

Copyright J Copland

Bradford Corporation Transport – 1934 – AEC 661T – English Electric H32/26R

Bradford Corporation Transport – 1935 – AEC 661T – NCB H30/26R (rebuilt 1949)

This photo of Bradford “Regen” 607 was taken in 1944 outside Duckworth Lane depot and shows this trolleybus in dark blue with war time white paint and headlamp masks. The overhead wiring has flash guards fitted on the points as a blackout precaution. Also present are two Bradford motor buses in khaki livery which did not apply to any of the trolleybuses in the fleet. The bus on the left is a 1939 Daimler COG6/English Electric Company and the bus on the right is a 1936 Daimler COG6/Weymann. Behind 607 there is a parked 1935 “Regen” in the “new blue” livery introduced by Bradford in 1942. “New blue” was the description used by the Bradford engineering staff during the early years of this light blue and cream livery which remained the standard in Bradford up to April 1972 when WYPTE took over all the Corporation fleets in West Yorkshire.
From my research I have found that 607 had a serious front accident in late December 1935 and was rebuilt with a full width cab and seating reduced to 58. The control contactors and shunt resistors were relocated from the chassis side to the cab. All the “Regens” except 632 were originally built with a half cab and 60 seats but all were rebuilt to full cabs as 607 in 1937/38 and the seating reduced to 58.
Perversely due to the cramped half cabs, the main circuit breakers were located on the roof trolley gantry and operated by levers in the drivers’ cab connected by Boden cables with steel wires. Overtime these steel wires extended and often broke rendering the trolleybus inert and an operational disaster. It is surprising that Bradford did not fit cab located circuit breakers at the time when the full bulkheads were fitted. This work however did start in 1942 for some “Regens” but was not done to 607 where the large boxes are the circuit breakers which can be seen on the roof. 607 was withdrawn for re-bodying in June 1945 and returned to service with a Northern Coachbuilders Mark 1 56 seat body in September 1946.

The photo of 620 now with a 1949 Northern Coachbuilders Mark 2 56 seat body shows it accelerating noisily up Godwin Street in Bradford City Centre in October 1952. In the background is a Brush bodied “Regen” on the Allerton service to the City Centre terminus. 620 still wears the glorious Tattam livery with cream bands, black beading and yellow lining. It soon lost its cream bands, was moved from Duckworth Lane depot to Thornbury in 1954 and then could be seen elsewhere in the City, Sadly 620 was withdrawn from service prematurely in April 1958 due to a serious accident when it skidded and overturned on the Clayton route. Other “Regens” with NCB bodies lasted until November 1962 having given 28 years service, albeit with a troubled number of early years until re-bodied in the forties.
Happy days, these unique “Regens” with their wailing and humming sound will always remain etched in my mind.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

01/02/11 – 18:41

What a treat to see the 2 “Regen” Bradford trolleybuses, and thanks to Richard for the technical data concerning the circuit breakers and full cab rebuilding.
It all goes to emphasise the points I made about the severe problems with these early EEC metal bodies, mentioned in my own “Regen” post.
In their rebodied form, I spent hours travelling in them, and, like Richard, will never forget their distinctive wailing sound. Also of interest is the rear of the EEC bodied COG6. My recent article on English Electric Bus Bodies mentions the 1937 re-design, and the well rounded rear dome of this bus illustrates this very well. There were very few takers for this design. I can only think of TD5s at Barrow, and lowbridge “Regens” at Southend. Anyone know of any more? The previous design had a very upright dome as can be seen on the “new blue” AAK “Regen” to the left of 607.
My home was about a mile and a Half from Duckworth Lane depot, shown here, and I was about five when the photo was taken!

John Whitaker

01/02/11 – 18:47

Fascinating submission. This is not the first one which mentions noisy trolleybuses, yet I cannot ever recall hearing more than the odd whine and swish from them, and I must have visited and travelled on them in some 10 towns which operated them. Any reason for the noise?.
I must confess that noise would have given individuality to an otherwise usually rather bland form of travel.
Even so, I was always impressed by their 0-60 acceleration and indeed used to ride on the last trolleybus from Croydon to Mitcham which went flat out across the common (about 60) silently, bar the singing of the poles/wires and the vibration from a far from new class of trolleys. On reflection, I wonder if I saw the girlfriend, who gave me this routine, for longer than I might, simply for the trolleybus experience!!

Chris Hebbron

02/02/11 – 06:14

Chris, I think the noise was generated by the double reduction gears in the rear axle differential that were straight cut teeth. Similar to tram motor gearing so a similar noise. I am pleased you found these Regens pictures interesting.

Richard Fieldhouse

05/02/11 – 16:07

Glasgow must have had very quiet trolleybuses. My dad can remember them being almost silent to pedestrians and they became known as ‘the silent death’. I hadn’t ever heard this mentioned anywhere else but reading Ken Houstin’s excellent ‘The Corporation Bus’ (Grosvenor House, £9.99 from Waterstones) lastnight I came across mention of one Dionne Warwick vs Glasgow Corporation. It seems the singer left the Glasgow Odeon after a concert using the back door on to West Nile Street. This being shrouded in thick fog, she didn’t hear or see a trolleybus and was struck by it and an out-of-court settlement smoothed things over!

Scott Anderson

29/04/11 – 06:49

One of the class lasted until 1965 having become trainer no. 060 in 1962. This was the former 597 with an NCB (mk2) body. I photographed it in this role outside Thornbury depot in July 1963. On withdrawal in 1965 it had achieved almost 31 years of service.
No. 603 was repainted in the 1911 style livery to celebrate Bradford’s Golden Jubilee in 1961. According to Stanley King no. 603 attained 1 million miles in service on 24 April 1962.

Malcolm Wells

26/03/12 – 07:53

I have just put together a gallery to commemorate 40 years since the end of Bradford trolleybuses. This incorporates over 500 photos including a section on the ‘Regens’ which I hope will shed some new light on the issues they experienced. Richard Fieldhouse has given me some useful information which has helped to interpret the photos, a lot of which relate to the structure of the body.
There is also route-by-route coverage. The gallery can be found at: //davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/
Hope you enjoy it!

David Beilby

26/03/12 – 13:21

David, the Bradford additions to your gallery are absolutely superb. Many thanks for your efforts, and particularly the EEC views, which to us Bradford enthusiasts are unbelievable. We would never have believed that such a wonderful archive even existed, let alone become available.
The Regens have always been my main transport “love”, as I grew up with them, and have previously said on a 606 posting, they were “personal friends” in the way that true transport enthusiasts will readily understand.

John Whitaker

27/03/12 – 07:17

Thx, David B, for putting Bradford’s trolleybuses on your website. Interestingly, the range 597-632 is virtually identical to (2)16-(2)24 (and especially (2)24 in Portsmouth Corporation’s fleet. Bradford re-bodied them around the end of the war, but Pompey’s carried their original bodies until they were scrapped, mainly in the 1957-8 period.
What was news to me were the five AEC ‘Q’ trolleybuses, presumably all with English Electric bodies, although whoever built the ‘Q’ (trolley)bus bodies, usually seemed to make them all look very similar. Bradford’s ‘Q’, 633, had a relatively short life (1934-1942). To withdraw a vehicle in mid-war would seem to indicate a really serious deficiency somewhere. The clue might lie with Southend’s ‘Q’ trolleybus No. 123, originally on hire from AEC Ltd., from 1934. It was rebuilt by Sunny Dawes in 1943 and again by Beale in 1945, finally being withdrawn in 1949. Intriguingly, Peter Gould’s website shows this vehicle as being a lowbridge example.

Chris Hebbron

27/03/12 – 15:47

Chris. Bradfords Regens were the first EEC metal framed trolleybus bodies. Like their BCN Leyland TD3 cousins, the bodies were literally shaken to pieces after 10 years, due to body weakness, cobbled streets, and the double reduction drive. EEC had learnt a few lessons by the time PCT received theirs, and there was a redesign in 1937, as exemplified by 635 etc in the BCPT fleet.
the Q (“Queenie”, No 633) was sold to South Shields in 1942, where she ran until c.1950. She was non standard in Bradford, regarded as draughty, and there were problems with the front overhang. A MOWT directive instructed BCPT to sell earlier 6 wheelers, and 633, South Shields and Newcastle being the recipients in 1942, and 1945.
Bradford had, of course, received 10 Sunbeam MF2s in 1942 under MOWT directive, which enabled these transactions to proceed. I refer to the “Joburghs”, 693-702.
We could write paragraphs on the “Regens”, so I will leave it there!

John Whitaker

28/03/12 – 08:31

Thanks, John, for filling in the gaps. We tend to forget cobbled streets and the effect they had on vehicles of the time, and probably to a lesser extent now as well. I sometimes wonder if East End of London cobbles were a prime reason for London Transport’s chassisless bodies coming into service. Although one or two small orders had their weaknesses, most survived the punishment well, although a large maintenance workforce would have helped.

Chris Hebbron

28/03/12 – 18:23

It has always amazed me Chris, that the LPTB chassisless trolleys performed as well as they did, and that the concept was not followed up apart from, I suppose, the RM input. Interesting point!
Re. Bradford’s Q trolley, I think an identical, or near identical body was fitted to the Halifax Motorbus Q. Have a look on David’s site. Most Q motorbuses had MCW bodies as did Bradford’s. As you say, Southend’s EEC Q was lowbridge, as were the earlier 661Ts! What a fascinating fleet that was!
re. Portsmouth, I am assuming that their EE bodied 5 bay AEC 661T trolleys were metal framed, as I always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they were. The earlier 6bay EEC bodies, and their 6 wheel equivalents were definitely composite, as the BCPT ones, delivered from November 1934, were definitely the first trolleys from EEC with metal framing.The Burnley C and N Titans were their first all metal motorbus bodies, and caused horrendous problems, as has been stated before. What a great hobby interest we share!!

John Whitaker

02/12/14 – 16:14

I always thought these Bradford Corporation AEC 661Ts 597 to 632 (built 1934/35) with double-reduction differential rear axle drives were unique. This belief was wrong as I have now found details in the recently published Portsmouth Trolleybus book by David R H Bowler that their AEC 661Ts 16 to 24 were also fitted with double-reduction drives and also made a loud noise when running. These Portsmouth trolleybuses with English Electric bodies were built in 1935 and followed the Bradford order and were similar in appearance. By 1936 I believe a worm drive with stronger bearings had emerged from AEC, no doubt due to London Transport influence, and future orders by Bradford and Portsmouth were for AEC 661Ts with worm drives which were much quieter in their operation.

Richard Fieldhouse

03/12/14 – 05:39

Nice to hear from you again, Richard. If you go to ‘More Pages’ on this website, then Old Bus Sounds, the first item is a Portsmouth trolleybus of the later type, but still with a noisy rear axle, albeit because it was worn, perhaps, near the end of its days! It’s certainly not a silent one! I confess that I never heard one of the 16-24 type, to my knowledge. They didn’t possess battery power movement and were usually relegated to peak time workings and were scrapped earlier than would otherwise have been the case. They also had a neglected air about them, with faded paintwork. Sad, because I always thought they had the most attractive bodies of all of Pompey’s trolleybus fleet.

Chris Hebbron

03/12/14 – 10:26

Many thanks Chris for your kind words and advice on the Bus Sound section for the sound of a Portsmouth AEC 661T/Craven trolleybus. I believe the General Manager Mr Ben Hall of Portsmouth was very wise to specify at a late stage Battery Traction availability for the large AEC 661T/Craven order. With the damage due to bombing during World War II, the trolleybuses in Portsmouth were still able to operate by using temporary turning points on battery power. Regarding trolleybus noise, this was also common in Bradford with some of their AEC 661Ts with worn worm drives adding to the “music”. It made every trolleybus seem to be a character. Interestingly the Karrier E4s (677 to 692; built 1938) used to make a more growling noise even when newly overhauled. Perhaps these were the bass section.

Richard Fieldhouse