Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Crosville Motor Services 1961 Bristol MW6G ECW DP41F
Crosville at its head office at Chester and had its boundaries at St Helens (N) Newcastle under Lyme (E) Cardigan (S) and Aberdaron (W) including the Island of Anglesey that is a very big area to cover. It was possible for the company to be running a local service about 150 miles away from the head office to do this in 1963 they had 1,221 vehicles and 35 depots. The above dual purpose vehicle would have been used on some of their express routes like the X4 Liverpool to Caernarvon or one from my neck of the woods the X35 Skipton to Llandudno. The livery of Crosville coaches and dual purpose vehicles was cream and the buses was the usual Tilling green.
Whilst Crosville coaches were all-over cream, in the early and mid 60s at least, through to the NBC takeover, their dual purpose vehicles were green up the waist and cream above.
United Automobile Services 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW DP41F
Previous shots of United Automobile single deck vehicles on this site have been bus bodied or coach bodied, here we have a dual purpose bodied MW6G. United as like many other of the Tilling group had a different livery for each type of vehicle body. United’s dual purpose vehicles livery was a reversal of their bus livery of red and cream and there coach livery was cream and sage green. There are links at the foot of this copy to see shots of a bus and coach livery. If you want to know the full specification for the MW6G you can look it up on the Bristol abbreviations here. The above photograph was taken at Whitby bus station July 1965 and this bus is not exactly on a long distance run as Whitby Laithes I think is around the Hawsker area which is only 3-4 miles south of Whitby. On saying that though what a lovely run on the North Yorkshire Moors with the North Sea just to the side of you, not sure if this route includes calling at Robin Hoods Bay or not. If you know please leave a comment. Quick links to see the ‘bus’ and ‘coach’ liveries.
Whitby Laithes is just outside Whitby near Stainsacre and before you get to Hawsker. I believe there was and maybe still is a caravan site there. Fantastic picture I would like to see some Durham District (which was part of United) photos if you have any. How well the colour suits the MW. This vehicle probably used to go on longer express services in its time to London etc.
Paul
Silly little anecdote concerning United and the Whitby area. I studied at the Royal Northern College of Music and the father of one of my tutors was a United inspector in the the Whitby area. Pre RE, all Bristols had manual, many crash, gearboxes. At the top of the road to Robin Hoods Bay, at that time open to traffic, was a sign telling bus drivers to stop and engage first gear. The breaking effect of an epicyclic gearbox is not the same as a manual. The poor driver of the first semi-auto RE to go down this road found this out to his cost. He panicked and threw the thing into reverse. The result was the vehicle seized up and when the fitters unscrewed the gearbox housing, a pile of dust fell to the floor.
David Oldfield
The very steep hill from the main road to Whitby into Fylingthorpe is still used by United’s successor Arriva for their 96 Scarborough Whitby Middlesbrough service. For many years it boasted signs at the top and bottom instructing drivers to engage low gear. Halfway up the hill is a hairpin bend which really sorted out the men from the boys! Following an Olympian up the hill was a fairly hair raising business. Nowadays the route is worked by single deckers. A similar steep hill Blue Bank just outside Sleights also used to boast signs instructing United drivers to stop and engage low gear. Indeed so steep is this road it boasts a sand filled run off for the use of out of control vehicles.
Chris Hough
I seem to remember there is sand run off road at the bottom of Garrowby Hill on the York to Bridlington road.
Peter
There is one on the A59 Harrogate to Skipton road after the long decent to Bolton Abbey
Spencer
19/03/11 – 07:48
Can anyone tell me the colour scheme for a Leyland Lion operated by United Automobile in the Bishop Aukland area in the 1912/1920 era.
Brian
19/03/11 – 10:33
Peter is quite right, and the escape lane still exists at the lower end of Garrowby Hill. I once had the most unpleasant but essential task of reporting an East Yorkshire driver who, in a filthy temper all the way from Bridlington Bus Station, carried our full load in a Leyland Leopard down Garrowby Hill in top gear. As I have a very wide experience of driving Leopards I was aware of their tendency to brake fade under heavy usage and this man was very lucky indeed not to have caused a disaster. As would be expected the highly respected EYMS were very concerned and thanked me for the information – not being of a vindictive nature I hope that the man was only reprimanded but the atrocious incident could not possibly go unreported. In one of those contrasts which occur from time to time I had travelled to Bridlington that weekend on a West Yorkshire vehicle (joint services 44/45) which was driven so impeccably that I also wrote to WYRCC with a commendation – soon afterwards that driver was seen in an Inspector’s hat in Leeds !!
Chris Youhill
19/03/11 – 17:20
Chris, we have so much in common. I have this thing about criticism outweighing commendation and that the good should also and always be remarked upon. To his own surprise, I wrote a letter of commendation about a First driver in Sheffield one Christmas Eve, a few years back. The standard of his driving and his interaction with passengers (yes, not customers!!!) was superb. I also got a very nice reply from management thanking me for taking the trouble. I think this is so important.
David Oldfield
19/11/11 – 10:07
I Googled “uas colour schemes” because I’m modelling Morpeth station 1950s and needed to check something. What do I find? An old friend from my college days. I did two summer vacs as a conductor at Whitby depot in 1961 and 1962 and if that isn’t one of the coaches we used on the Leeds run then it’s their twin brother. There wasn’t a service to Whitby Laithes then. The closest would have been the 93 (I think) to Robin Hoods Bay.
Clippie
20/11/11 – 07:35
The mention of Blue Bank reminds me that when I drove for J. J. Longstaff of Mirfield I was half way up with my Bedford VAS/Plaxton when the fan belt snapped. I was very fortunate to be able to back in to a field and then coast down to Sleights to wait to be rescued.
Philip Carlton
12/12/11 – 08:28
Chris Hough refers to advisory/warning signs erected around Whitby on approaches to very steep hills. There is still one such sign at the top of Blue Bank on the approach to Sleights just outside Whitby. I have attached two photos which please use if you wish.
Whilst not the original, it serves the same purpose – it is in fact headed up as ‘TEES’, this company being the eventual successor to United in 1990 prior to the subsequent takeover by Arriva. The present sign is well obscured by a gorse bush but quite visible to the enthusiast. There used also to be signs at the bottom of the hills with the message ‘United – All clear’, but there is none at the foot of Blue Bank now. As far as I know, there are no longer any signs on Lythe Bank above Sandsend and I do not know if any signs still exist at Fylingthorpe but would think it unlikely.
John Darwent
13/12/11 – 10:55
Apart from a few odd balls that were presumably acquired as a result of takeovers, up to the formation of National Bus Company the vast majority of United’s bus and coach fleet was made up of ECW bodied Bristol’s. However, for quite some time Whitley Bay Depot had a non ECW Guy Arab, does anyone know how it came to be there?
Ronnie Hoye
13/12/11 – 11:22
Ronnie, I believe it was a Willowbrook body – possibly a rebody of a war-time model. This would almost certainly be as a result of the takeover of an independent. I believe Durham and District was set up to run independents taken over in the area by United – but Whitley Bay would be far too north to be included.
David Oldfield
13/12/11 – 15:19
I am a regular reader but have not contributed previously. Re the recent posts concerning the warning signs on Blue Bank there is a beautifully restored United Red “Engage Low Gear” sign at the foot of Ruswarp Bank in Ruswarp Village near Whitby. There is quite a few photos to be seen if you Google – “United Ruswarp Compulsory” On Lythe Bank there was an intermediate sign in both directions at the Lodge gates and I recall that for climbing vehicles it read “Drivers may build up gears” or something similar. In the down direction the first sign was for 2nd gear and the intermediate prior to the steepest 1 in 4 portion was for 1st gear. I recall others on the approach to Goathland.
Farmer G
15/12/11 – 15:41
Excellent – thank you for the link Farmer G
John Darwent
14/01/12 – 16:19
The United 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW DP41F is my colour scheme. I worked at Grange Road 1954 – 1958/9 in the drawing office. The drawings came in and we had to colour them in. The CE chose mine…. Yes Durham and District Services was set-up to run the independents United had taken over. In my time in the pump house in Central Works we had Bob I think it was who’d come in from the company at Hurworth that United/DDS had taken over. In the drawing office there was drawings of the “stop and engage low gear” signs.
Mike Hingley
04/05/12 – 08:59
Could anyone tell me please the location of United’s Scarborough depot? Is the building still there?
Goff
04/05/12 – 14:45
The Depot is still there and is now a Car Parking facility rejoicing in the name of the “Palm Court” on Vernon Road near the junction with Falconers Road. It appears to be connected to the up-market Palm Court Hotel. It is clearly shown on Google Earth.
Gordon Green
04/07/13 – 17:35
I seem to recall a double decker bus service in the 1950’s to Castle Park in Whitby, route number 96 when I was about 5 or 6. Does anyone remember this? I seem to remember that the bus went up Chub Hill, along Upgang Lane and Love Lane before heading past White Leys estate.
Mic
20/08/13 – 18:53
A K5G from Scarborough depot was loaned to Whitby Depot for the summer period in the fifties. The service was numbered 98 and ran from the Bus Station to Castle Park via Chubb Hill, John Street, Promenade, Argyle Road, White Point, Love Lane and Stakesby Road. The Destination blind permanently showed “Castle Park”, and the lower blind “White Point The Spa 98. Around 1960 this service was linked with the 99 from the Bus Station to St. Peter’s Road, formerly operated by Heather Motor Services. The resulting cross town service was numbered 96, and was operated by two single-deckers, at first LS5G’s, later MW’s. By the early seventies, Whitby Depot had a single RESL6G, 2862, which was used on the 96 day after day, usually in partnership with an LH; I once overheard a driver stating that Whitby’s manager had tried to get a second RE but had been refused.
Don McKeown
21/08/13 – 06:55
Seeing the earlier post of signs on Blue Bank has got me worried. If the gorse bush has been cut back to reveal the TEES sign saying ‘Stop, Engage 2nd gear Retain to next sign’ and the All Clear sign at the bottom has been removed, what is happening out on the road ? Are there dozens of buses winding their way around North Yorkshire in 2nd gear looking in vain for the All Clear sign ? I sincerely hope not!
Petras409
25/08/13 – 06:33
In Don McK’s posting, he mentions Heather Motor Services at Whitby. I recall that on holiday as a very small boy in the late 40’S, I saw what may well have been a Bedford OB or similar in cream with red lining belonging to Moordale Coaches maybe. I have never been able to find a reference to this firm or where they ran from. Don, do you have any information please? Heather MS is well documented though.
John Darwent
29/08/13 – 06:29
Sorry John, I have no recollection of Moordale coaches in the Whitby area, although I have heard the name; was it a company further north, perhaps in County Durham? Farmer G mentions the restored sign at Ruswarp; this is not strictly accurate, the “United” fleetname at the head of the board has a large U and D, with the NITE smaller and underlined. In reality, only the U was in the larger print with five letters underlined. Further on along the 91 (Malton route) there were a fourth set of gearchanging signs at the “Devil’s Elbow”, between the Saltergate Inn and the Hole of Horcum. Service 94 to Whitby Laithes was a summer only service which survived into the late sixties. It was taken over from Heather Motor Services, along with the 99 St. Peters Road) and 93 (Fylingthorpe)on 29th March 1953. The story of Heather is told in a book by Philip Battersby, published by United Enthusiasts Club in 2005.
Don McKeown
29/08/13 – 06:31
Ah – distant memories of what were my first ever seaside Summer Holidays spent in Whitby. Obviously I’m not the only one on this site to spend holidays there in the late 40’s and early 50’s. On the second and third of those holidays we stayed at the Oxford Hotel opposite the Spa and the highlight for me was the regular passage of the Castle Park bus. Isn’t it funny how the ‘old’ registration numbers stick in your mind and here is one – CHN 105 passing by on a regular basis all day. For years I recalled it as a K5G with a modern post war body but it was only when I found a copy of the Prestige book on United that I found a photo by G H F Atkins of its sister CHN 106 and discovered that it was not what it first seemed to be. In fact it was a GO5G originally fitted with an odd ball ECW body (14 ft 3in height) but with a lowbridge layout. They were rebodied in 1949 with standard ECW lowbridge bodies which had to be modified to fit the GO5G chassis. Could the cream/red Bedford OB have been one of Howards’s Tours who used to load in front of the Esplanade Gardens for their excursions ??
Gordon Green
03/09/13 – 16:30
Gordon, I have looked at an image of a Howards’ OB and the colours suggest you may well be correct with your suggestion.I cannot remember whether Howards had any stage services but seem to think that the “phantom” Moordale /Moorsholm /Moorview or whatever Coaches served the Esk Valley area such as Danby and Lealholm. Possibly an ex-Howards OB retaining the paint scheme but with new owner – who knows?
John Darwent
16/09/13 – 06:31
I’ve just noticed Ronnie’s query from December 2011 (!) about a non-ECW Guy ‘decker at Whitley Bay. David is quite right in attributing it to the formation of DDS. It was GGH1 (GHN 69), a Guy Arab III which had been ordered by Darlington Triumph, one of the constituent companies – along with ABC and Express – of DDS. Its chassis was delivered to DDS in May 1951 and originally intended to operate for them, but was actually ‘transferred’ to United who had it bodied by Willowbrook as a highbridge 58-seater. It entered service in June 1952 at Carlisle depot but, later, found its way to Whitley Bay where it was often to be found on the 5 and 17 services and where, I believe, it ended its days.
Alan R Hall
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
28/05/14 – 07:46
Regarding the question by John Darwent and others above. Moordale Bus services Ltd who ran in the Whitby area. The company was actually based in Newcastle and survived in various forms until takeover by British Bus in the 1990s. They also had a garage at Danby and ran; Loftus-Liverton Mines-Liverton Village-Moorsholm, Castleton-Danby-Lealholm-Ugthorpe-Sandsend-Whitby, Loftus-Liverton-Danby-Lealholm-Glaisdale, Danby-Fryup Dale (Sats only) Even in the the post-war traffic boom these must have been marginal and the whole operation was abandoned in 1954. Just Loftus-Liverton was replaced, by Saltburn Motor Services, and even then I believe there was a gap before this started.
Phil Drake
28/05/14 – 16:03
Thanks for that Phil. Very enlightening.
John Darwent
07/06/14 – 08:24
I have been in the Whitby area this week and have found another of the old (but badged ‘Tees’) ‘compulsory stop engage 1st gear’ signs at the foot of Saltersgate Bank on the A169 Whitby Pickering road. This is opposite the sadly closed Saltersgate Inn where the peat fire was aid to have been burning for nearly 300 years. There used to be one at the top for descending vehicles but I could not see this as I drove past. I wonder if Yorkshire Coastliner observe the spirit of the old signs ?
West Yorkshire Road Car Company 1964 Bristol MW6G ECW DP41F
Originally numbered SMG38, this vehicle became 1146 in West Yorkshire’s 1971 renumbering programme. It was one of twenty-six MW6G buses delivered to WY in 1963/64 – these being the first new single-decker WY buses for some time. For quite a few years previously, the Company had been able to cascade its mid-life dual-purpose vehicles for stage carriage use – repainting them red and cream in the process. The MW6G buses were originally delivered as B45F, but in 1971, SMG33-38 were reseated with high-backed seats from withdrawn LS dual-purpose vehicles. Unusually, the reseated batch retained bus livery, rather than receiving WY’s then dual-purpose/express livery of cream with a red band. As can be seen, ‘T-type’ destination indicators were fitted at the front, but no displays were fitted at the rear. The vehicles sported full-depth rear windows in their nicely rounded domes. They were quiet and comfortable buses to ride in, whether coach or bus seated, not to mention being very reliable and economical workhorses.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith
08/09/12 – 07:45
There are so many West Yorkshire experts who visit this site that one needs to be very careful about one’s facts. Someone may know otherwise, but my recollection is that WY fitted high back seats as a matter of course in their early MWs, designated SUGs. I remember them well on route 43, Leeds to Scarborough, always in standard livery. ‘SUG’ was explained to me in conductors’ training school as ‘Single, Underslung Gardner’. ‘SMG’ – ‘Single, Maximum Capacity Gardner’ – came later, I thought, as the company started to fit bus seats. Originally, SUGs had destination indicators made up of the two lower sections of ECW’s then standard three-part screens. The change to ‘T-type’ screens embraced all stage carriage vehicles, in the mid-1960’s. It’s a pity that the screen in this picture is sloppy; even if the screen didn’t have the right destination, (which could occasionally happen), the driver could, I think, have made sure the route number was displayed clearly.
Roy Burke
08/09/12 – 07:46
I agree entirely with Brendan about such vehicles being quiet and comfortable to travel in. I had many rides on those of Midland General which were all of the 6G type and always found them so. I’ve never had any experience of the MW5G, I suspect the ride may have been rather different. David O remarks elsewhere about the popularity of the Guy Arab UF/LUF for coaching work. I too, never had any experience of these but I’ve always imagined that there couldn’t have been much difference between them and the MW.
Chris Barker
09/09/12 – 08:02
West Yorkshire vehicles were regular visitors to Blackpool on the “Joint Services” pool and also to Morecambe – alias British West Bradford – on the X88 service from Leeds. We could and did get anything that was available. The “class” letters seem to have gone from most of the former Tilling group fleets at about the same time, though the Crosville arrangement was adopted by Potteries. A pleasant enough view, but the indicator display would be of no use at all to a stranger. Thanks for sharing, Brendan.
Pete Davies
09/09/12 – 08:02
West Riding were a somewhat surprising recipient of West Yorkshire 1125 825 BWY which was new to West Yorkshire in 1963 as SMG17 in 1974. It lasted with West Riding until 1975 when it was scrapped.
Chris Hough
09/09/12 – 08:04
You are indeed right Roy, that West Yorkshire’s earlier deliveries of MWs (MW5Gs) with bus outline bodywork were fitted with high-backed coach seats. They were classed ‘EUG’ when new, denoting Express Underfloor Gardner, as were the earlier batches of LS5Gs, also with bus shells and coach seats. In later life many were demoted to ‘SUG’ status, for use mainly on stage-carriage work, gaining more red to their livery, but retaining coach seats. They would no doubt have been comfortable machines to ride in on the Leeds to Scarborough run, but many of us did wonder why WY continued to specify 5-pot rather than 6-pot Gardner engines for it’s longer-distance vehicles. It must have taken an age to reach Scarborough, Blackpool or Middlesbrough from the heart of the West Riding. (Could that be the reason for fitting half a dozen of the more powerful MW6G buses with 41 high-backed seats later on?). Some of the SUGs were fitted out for “one man” operation in later life, and received 45 bus seats in the process. They were re-classified SMG at the same time, the ‘M’ as Roy says, denoting Maximum seating capacity, and described as such in Ian Allan’s BBF No9. I too have heard this quoted by West Yorkshire staff, but have heard other staff say that ‘M’ meant the bus was suitable for one Man operation. Both descriptions appeared to be very relevant to the buses concerned, but as a skinny apprentice at the time, I did not wish to provoke an argument with either party, and came to the conclusion that maybe they were both right!
Brendan Smith
09/09/12 – 08:03
Where was this picture taken Brendan? Judging by the route number, could it have been York, Harrogate or possibly Keighley? As we’ve seen on other postings, it was not uncommon to have to ride many miles on express services in bus seats, but to have this DP for a local suburban estate run must have been delightful!
Paul Haywood
10/09/12 – 06:56
Paul and Brendan – my trusty 1960 fare table book (seriously speaking one of my most treasured possessions) may hold the answer to this query. At least in 1960 there was no service 9A in Harrogate or Keighley, but in York services 9/9A ran between Clifton and Tang Hall Lane. Our lovely meerkat friend from TV would no doubt click his teeth and remark “seeemples.”
Chris Youhill
10/09/12 – 06:58
There are other mysteries here! I know the camera can lie (or the process can) but that’s not Poppy Red, and I’m not sure about the side band- should be a sort of grey-white and yet seems to match the presumably original window surrounds- which would be self-colour cream, I imagine: yet the grey wheels are there and NBC fleetname. As to where… looks too warm for Keighley: has a look of east Leeds about it
Joe
10/09/12 – 06:59
I remember seeing the first MWs entering service in Bristol in February 1958. These had AHY registrations and ugly flat backs. The second (DAE) series had the more rounded style and I suppose other early operators of the type had bodywork which went through the same design change.
Geoff Kerr
11/09/12 – 06:52
We really need Brendan to tell us where this photo was taken to be sure of the location. In 1960, as Chris says, there was certainly a service 9/9A in York, but it was invariably a double-decker route in those days. I worked it many times as a conductor; a very busy urban route. The picture dates from NBC days – at least 9 or 10 years later – by which time things might have changed, of course. If the picture is indeed in York, things must have changed a lot, since the very idea of OMO on the Clifton/Tang Hall Lane service in the mid-1960’s would have been thought laughable. In Tilling days, York had only one single deck city service, (Leeman Road/Hull Road, route 7), necessitated by a low bridge, operated in my time with L5Gs, (YSGs), later replaced with SUs, (YSMAs). There were then very few OMO routes, and all of them, as you’d expect, were light semi-rural services.
Roy Burke
11/09/12 – 06:55
Well Chris- that looked like a York street light, too. Did NBC remove the “York”, and have West Yorkshire in East Yorkshire (nearly?) …or is this bus out of area, which explains the blinds?
I should have added that its not West Yorkshire red either which was much redder? This is almost maroon.
Joe
11/09/12 – 06:58
Sorry Joe but this is not east Leeds West Yorkshire had no service numbers as low as that in the Leeds area all services in east Leeds were either throughs to York and points east or at a push to places like Barwick Scoles and other dormatory villages which were in the West Riding until 1974 West Yorkshire applied NBC fleet names to standard Tilling red but often painted the cream band on both saloons and deckers.
Chris Hough
11/09/12 – 07:01
Apologies for being a little slow in responding to the above comments folks, but I’m making preparations for my ‘jollies’ and have been ‘sidetracked’ away from OB Photos several times! Paul, Chris Y and Joe, sorry to keep you in suspense as a result, but the photo was taken on Woodfield Road, Harrogate. The vehicle was on the newly-introduced 9A Bus Station – Dene Park route, serving a new estate of low-rise flats for older people. From what I can recall, 1146 had been recently transferred from I think, Leeds depot, and presumably had not yet received a blind showing Dene Park, which would go some way in explaining the unhelpful (and slovenly) route display. (There is also what appears to be a maroon Leeds depot allocation disc in front of the fleet number, rather than a green Harrogate one). Joe, your comment on the livery has me puzzled too. I’m not sure whether the processing (AGFA slide) has made the poppy red look like Tilling red, or whether the bus was still wearing Tilling red, with NBC grey wheels, white band and fleetnames applied. Some WY depots did apply white bands and fleetnames to vehicles still in Tilling red, if the paintwork was still sound, pending a full repaint into poppy red at a later date. I smiled at your comment that the view looked too warm for Keighley.
Brendan Smith
12/09/12 – 07:11
Thanks for settling this teaser for us Brendan – I had based my wild assumption of the wrong year of course, and on the pretty unlikely possibility of a vehicle transfer or loan to York – and my meerkat informant has received one week’s notice !!
Chris Youhill
12/09/12 – 07:11
Brendan, as a Keighley postcoder (although living just over the border into North Yorkshire), I must defend the place! Emily Bronte would have had difficulty selling “Wuthering Heights” with the title “Sunny Hills”! When we think of famous people with “sunny dispositions” we automatically think of Denis Healey, Eric Pickles, and Alastair Campbell who were all born in Keighley! There’s nothing wrong with good old fashioned gloom and misery. Mark my words, no good will come from sunshine, it only attracts the wasps!
Paul Haywood
13/09/12 – 06:59
Thanks for settling the mystery, Brendan. I have several views of buses still in Tilling green or red but with NBC style fleetname. A Southern Vectis bus in Southampton (on loan to Hants & Dorset and with the latter’s fleet number – don’t fret, boys, I’ll submit it for consideration in a week or two!) has Tilling green, NBC fleetname and the white stripe.
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW C39F
This Bristol MW with, as it was called then, the “New Look” design was new to Hants & Dorset as their fleet number 887 in June 1962. In 1963 the batch (882 – 887) were down seated to C30F for extended tours, but reverted to C39F in 1968. In the first view, she has been downgraded to local bus work, as DP41F and is in special livery for the RED FUNNEL FERRIES contract and is seen at Southampton Central Station in April 1974. Her sister, 7122 LJ, was in BRITISH RAIL SEASPEED livery at the same time, but my view of the sister is not suitable for publication.
Copyright Pete Davies
In the second view of 7123 LJ, the relegation to service bus duty is complete, having been repainted in NBC poppy red livery with white stripe in 1975. She’s in the yard of Southampton depot in January 1976. In both views, she has the fleet number 1833 but for a brief time in 1971 she had the fleet number 1001.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
14/12/12 – 07:21
Never thought NBC poppy red could be an improvement on another livery but…..
Eric Bawden
14/12/12 – 07:22
When I photographed sister vehicle 1831 in 1973 on local service at Winchester, she was still fitted with high back seats. I’m amused by the fact that in the upper view, 1833 retains wheel trims, but has been relegated to bus seating.
Alan Murray-Rust
14/12/12 – 08:50
Indeed, Eric! I have vague memories that Southern Vectis had a vehicle in similar livery, for the Cowes to Newport element of this service, though I never photographed it. The service connected with the express trains from Waterloo and, in later years, had the service number 91, to match the train headcode! Different people have operated the link over the years, including Marchwood Motorways (using a Ford with Duple coach body and special livery) and Southampton Citybus (both before and after they sold out to First) Current operation is called “City Link” and the Unilink version of Solent Blue Line runs it.
Pete Davies
14/12/12 – 10:44
I like to think that even me, colour-blind, would not have come up with such a hideous range of colours and patterns as the poor suffering bus has in the top photo. Sun glasses might have helped! I always liked the ‘New Look’.
Chris Hebbron
14/12/12 – 16:26
Just a different way of applying poppy and white, Mr H!!!
Pete Davies
15/12/12 – 12:00
Mansfield District had some of these type vehicles, good looking coaches when new, however, the downgrade to DP services saw the addition of the linen box grafted onto the front dome, it spoilt ’em though at least Mansfield fully removed the original two boxes above the headlights.
Berisford Jones
15/12/12 – 14:32
Berisford, I’m not sure what happened to this batch with Hants & Dorset, but most of the H&D coaches just had the box, illuminated, with the lettering HANTS & DORSET under the driver and HOLIDAY TOURS in the other one. Some of the RE coaches, down to NBC DP livery, had the HOLI removed. Yes, removal of the box would probably have made the outline better!
Pete Davies
15/12/12 – 16:21
I like the design of these vehicles – I don’t like the destination box. For comparison take a look at a similar Royal Blue coach at this link which doesn’t have such a box
Ken Jones
16/12/12 – 11:00
Yes, Ken, same here! So far as I know, Royal Blue coaches weren’t downgraded to DP or bus work, so they never needed that box in the dome.
Pete Davies
16/12/12 – 12:14
United had some of these with a different front panel and destination layout. Drab olive green and cream sounds hideous for a coach livery, but anyone who has ever seen one of United’s coaches will tell you, it works, and these were no exception.
Ronnie Hoye
16/12/12 – 14:44
Although some of the Royal Blue MW vehicles like EDV 502D had Western National branding instead of Royal Blue they never [thank goodness] received these horrible destination boxes. There’s a picture at this link showing ENOC with an equally horrible destination box
Ken Jones
16/12/12 – 17:31
The later vehicles with the deeper windscreens, such as the one in the link Ken posted never looked right to my eyes and I agree Ken, that thin profile linen display box looks very wrong. Not one of ECW’s best at all.
Berisford Jones
17/12/12 – 08:09
You are spot-on with your comments about the United olive green and cream livery Ronnie. It doesn’t sound great on paper, but ‘in the metal’ it had a touch of class. United’s Plaxton-bodied Bristol REMHs brought in a simpler more up to date style later on, yet they still looked stunning. They even retained the scroll-type fleet names.
Brendan Smith
17/12/12 – 13:04
Brendan, going off the subject slightly, I know a couple of United L’s have survived into preservation ‘I believe one is in Durham District livery’ but do you know of any DP versions in the reverse livery?
Ronnie Hoye
17/12/12 – 16:39
The full list of Bristol L survivors can be found at www.bristolsu.co.uk/ but I don’t think there is an United vehicle in reverse livery. Crosville KFM 893 is in reversed livery. HHN 202 is preserved in Durham District livery as seen at www.sct61.org.uk/
Ken Jones
19/12/12 – 07:25
I noted above that I had vague memories of a Southern Vectis vehicle in the same special livery. I’ve found it, in a bought slide from Omnicolour. If you think this is bad, just consider a Bristol FS (VDL 844 to be precise!) then go and lie down in a darkened room until you recover.
Pete Davies
19/12/12 – 13:42
On the same link Ken Jones mentions above, you will find a picture of one of these ‘7014 HN’ plus one or two other examples of United coaches, in particular is a 1964 Leyland Loepard L2 with Plaxton Panorama body, it became part of United’s fleet when they acquired Wilkinson of Spennymoor in 1968, but they all prove the point that quiet restraint is often more dignified than ‘flash and brash’
Ronnie Hoye
20/12/12 – 07:54
Ronnie, sorry but I don’t know if there is a United Bristol L preserved in DP livery. The only ones I’m familiar with are in bus livery – HHN 202 (Durham District green) and two red LS – rear entrance LHN 823 and front entrance LHN 860. The latter vehicle made a touching appearance at Charlie Bullock’s funeral in Scarborough in August, complementing Charlie’s United K5G towing wagon FHN 923, which provided his ‘personal transport’ for the proceedings.
Brendan Smith
20/12/12 – 09:45
Ronnie, I’ve just been reading through comments related to United Auto Bristol LL6B NHN 128 on this splendid website, which should interest you. Present owner David Hudson comments that this vehicle is awaiting restoration following fire damage. He also states that the vehicle was converted to DP configuration in 1953, so maybe you could yet see a United L-type in reversed livery.
Brendan Smith
20/12/12 – 16:04
Thanks for that, Brendan, if NHN 128 were to be restored as a DP that ‘length and engine size apart’ would that make a full full set of L’s as far as United are concerned? A front and rear entrance in red, a reverse livery DP and a Green Durham District, or did D/D have DP’s as well?
Western National Omnibus Co Ltd 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW C39F
This is a Bristol MW6G from 1962 with second style MW ECW C39F body, and was hired from Western National to London Country Bus Services Limited in 1975 to 1977. In 2000 it was in service with Memory Lane Vintage Omnibus Services. It has been owned by Bob & Philip White since 2008 and is seen at many rallies and often participates in the annual Royal Blue run. It is preserved as Western National 2270, and was photographed leaving Simonsbath in Somerset on 3/7/10 during that years Royal Blue event. The picture was taken from the proceeding vehicle EDV 502D a Bristol MW6G with the third style C39F ECW bodywork.
The 2013 Royal Blue run will take place on Friday 21st June to Sunday 23rd June and include Margate to Bournemouth. More details are on line at www.tvagwot.org.uk/events.htm
You never fail to Excel. Another excellent capture.
Alan Coulson
23/02/13 – 13:42
Well up to standard, Ken. Keep going!
Pete Davies
04/03/13 – 07:57
I used to drive 2270 on service out of Royal Blue depot in Portsmouth. Didn’t like her to drive. Also operated a daily service from Portsmouth to Ilfracombe in the 70,s which to us through Simonsbath and over Exmoor but we always had a MW ideal for the bends at Watersmeet which was further on.
Jim Stapleton
06/03/13 – 10:27
WN 2270 also recorded as on loan to Alder Valley during June and July 1975.
Mac Head
21/04/13 – 07:52
Just been catching up on the ITV programme “Endeavour” from 14th April and found this vehicle in it plus Hants and Dorset FEL 951C plus Oxford City Double Decker – very good
Ken Jones
27/04/13 – 07:48
Initial invites and details about the 2013 Royal Blue run have just been released from the organisers as follows.
“This year we are heading east. The South Coast Express from Margate to Bournemouth was jointly operated by Royal Blue, East Kent and Southdown. Royal Blue also operated joint services between Bournemouth and Kent with Maidstone & District and therefore we would like invite owners of vehicles from these companies to join us in this year’s run. In the heyday of the South Coast Express through services from Margate to Bournemouth took around 12 hours for the complete journey. In today’s traffic conditions this would take significantly longer and therefore the plan is as follows:
Day 1 (Friday 21 June) Victoria Coach Station (we have permission to be in VCS from about 10.30 to 11.00 when there will also be an unveiling of a Transport Trust “Red Wheel”) – Peckham – Lewisham – Sidcup – Maidstone – Canterbury – Margate – Ramsgate
Entrants will be welcome from Royal Blue, Southdown, East Kent, Maidstone & District and Associated Motorways companies and any vehicles which might have run “on-hire” to the main operators. Entrants can join in for any part or all of the run over the three days.”
Ken Jones
21/05/13 – 15:20
Well Jim, you and me both! According to my “lists”(!) I drove her a few times out of Bournemouth (Rutland Road) on Associated Motorways work. Not as nice to drive as the later RELHs!
Andy McClelland
22/06/13 – 07:52
Yes Andy 2270 was not so nice to drive but I’m sure it was because it didn’t like me! And trying to change the blind with your T key was something else!!. At least when it was hot one could drive with the door open.
Cumberland Motor Services 1964 Bristol MW6G ECW B45F
Cumberland 231 (AAO 34B) was a 1964 Bristol MW6G with the standard Eastern Coachworks B45F body. Of interest is the T-style destination display, which required the front dome to be raised above the natural roofline of the bus. ECW always managed to make this feature look like a natural part of the design, whereas some builders used to make this feature look like an “afterthought”. The bus is seen at Seatoller, terminus of service 79 from Keswick. This exceptionally scenic route followed the Borrowdale Valley, and is nowadays operated by Stagecoach using open top double-deckers. 231 and a sister spent more or less all her life allocated to Keswick Depot, most of this time being spent on service 79.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
12/02/14 – 18:15
Always thought this was a neat little body on the MW and always preferred the 6Gs. I’m sure Westmorland and Cumberland were better tackled with this engine.
David Oldfield
12/02/14 – 18:35
The 79 was operated jointly with the “Keswick – Borrowdale Bus service” which consisted of Simpsons and Weightmans – one bus each I think, and for many years both of them Bedford OB/Duples.
Stephen Ford
13/02/14 – 08:11
Happy days! I regularly travelled on one these workhorses to school. Cumberland provided 2 x MWs, 1 x FS, and 1 x FLF for the school run from Seascale to Egremont during the mid 1970s. In addition to the standard MW6G buses there were also a few MW oddities, numbered 222-226. These had been downgraded from coaches or dual-purpose vehicles and at least one of them still had comfy seats! The MWs were especially suited to working routes that followed narrow winding roads into the valleys of the Western Lake District, including the 79 from Keswick to Seatoller, the 65 from Cockermouth to Buttermere, and the weekly 11 from Whitehaven into Wasdale. They also performed well on the less busy southern section of the long coastal route 12 from Whitehaven to Millom. The tight curve under the low railway bridge at Seascale determined a change of vehicles and an MW could just squeeze through with an inch on either side. Happily 231 is preserved having been purchased when it was withdrawn in 1980 by Richard Solyom, a Keswick schoolboy who travelled on it every day.
Mike Morton
13/02/14 – 10:50
This bus was actually new to Cumberland in 1963 but was kept in store for a year before it entered service. Surprisingly in view of its operating territories sparse population Cumberland was the most profitable NBC company just before the NBC was dismembered.
Chris Hough
13/02/14 – 13:28
That’s very interesting regarding profitability. There were a number of rural routes though most of them were in the urban area between the coastal towns and former mining areas: Egremont, Cleator Moor, Whitehaven, Workington and Maryport plus the busy route from Whitehaven to Carlisle which still exists as a Stagecoach Gold service. The other factor may have been the large number of works contracts, especially for Sellafield.
Mike Morton
13/02/14 – 17:30
For a number of years my family had a Hotel in the Borrowdale Valley, (The Hazelbank Hotel in Rosthwaite), so I know this area very well. The Bristol MWs, now long since gone, were replaced by the Leyland National, the Mark 2 variety, with out roof pod, if memory serves me right. This run up the valley must be one of the nicest in the Country. I have in my collection a picture of 231 at the Seatoller Terminus in 1979, ready to operate back to Keswick. It is shown here.
Stephen Howarth
14/02/14 – 07:07
Yes, interesting comments about profitability. Being a bit parochial, I would have thought Yorkshire Woollen would have been close to the top of the list as regards profitable companies, indeed, Don Akrigg’s “Colours of West Yorkshire” book described it as “the BET’s goldmine” and with services into cities such as Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield and large towns like Halifax and Huddersfield, with numerous smaller ones in-between, one can understand why it was once a thriving network. To go back to Cumberland, as a matter of interest, does anyone know why, after decades of the Seatoller service being numbered 79, Stagecoach changed it to 78 a couple of years back?
Dave Towers
14/02/14 – 17:10
Dave a good point about YWD in the same area YTC must have been profitable too Cumberland were seen as top dog in the run up to NBC dismemberment when YWD no longer existed as such being under West Riding management.
Chris Hough
15/02/14 – 06:52
Always thought this was a neat little body on the MW and always preferred the 6Gs. I’m sure Westmorland and Cumberland were better tackled with this engine.
David Oldfield
15/02/14 – 15:29
Chris Hough- the profitability of BET companies like YTC and YWD would be interesting to know: YWD seemed to suffer acute shortages of working buses, whilst the old YTC seemed to trundle round potentially crowded routes with a fleet of oldies and goldies- including oddities taken on from other operators. We don’t seem to have old YTCers on this site? Were these companies cash cows to finance the conglomerate’s expansion?
Joe
16/02/14 – 07:50
A lovely photo from Don who draws attention to the raising of the roof line to accommodate the T-style destination. It very much depended on which past of the Tilling empire you were familiar with as to how unusual this was for down in Essex this was very familiar on Eastern National’s bus versions. Indeed when returning to the family’s home in Widnes/Runcorn there always seemed something odd about Crosville’s examples.
Rob McCaffery
18/02/14 – 08:09
Living Bristol Omnibus territory when I was a boy I remember riding on BOC MWs frequently to and from school in Wells. There were several allocated to Wells depot. They were fitted with T-style destination boxes front and rear. Made them look very odd to the Western National MWs I encountered.
Richard Stubbings
19/02/14 – 15:05
I remember reports in the newspapers (may it even have made television news?) about Richard buying this bus – it did give me a false-hope that my parents may have somehow contrived to buy for me a suitable YWD single-decker. I also remember a holiday in Seatoller around 1972, and remember watching these MWs come and go – they seemed very quaint to me back then, usual single-deck fare around Halifax having BET recessed or twin-curvature screens. Despite my entreaties we never took the opportunity to ride into Keswick on one . . . and the opportunity to ride on an MW never subsequently presented itself. Regarding the profitability of ex-NBC companies, I’m surprised that Cumberland was top-of-the-list in the run-up to privatisation – did the transfer of Ribble’s Carlisle-area workings have an influence? In the early 1980s I’m sure that Northern was the most profitable NBC subsidiary . . . but these things come and go. YTC’s profitability must have been hit by the decline in the mining industry (less colliery specials, less disposable income for travel), as must YWDs by the decline of the heavy woollen industry – indeed Arriva’s current network is just a shadow of that which the NBC inherited in the area. And both YWD and YTC must have generated a lot of income from the Yorkshire-Blackpool express traffic and other excursion traffic, which just evaporated through the early 1970s.
Philip Rushworth
19/02/14 – 17:28
He was definitely on the local Border TV news Philip. It gave me false hope too – I was offered one of Barrow Corporation’s Massey bodied PD2A/27s for £150.00 at around that time. Even if I had been able to raise the money my parent’s drive wasn’t big enough to park it! It’s a pity none survived – I always remember the big sliding entrance doors.
Mike Morton
25/02/14 – 16:41
The 79 was renumbered 78 because from c2006 Stagecoach in Cumberland found itself with two 79s- the other one an ex Western SMT route north of Carlisle which a group reorganisation had transferred into their hands. On the profitability point, in 1970 (a terrible year for the NBC) I remember trade press reports that only Cumberland and Southern Vectis had turned in a profit. By that time Yorkshire Woollen – and Hebble’s fleets – were in a terrible state. I remember decrepit Regent Vs belching out blue smoke and the desperate enthusiasm with which YWD fell on Sheffield’s C fleet double deckers when the Joint Omnibus Committee was broken up at the end of 1969. Yorkshire Traction, by contrast, were in a much better state, I think the only second hand example sin the fleet had come as a result of company takeovers.
Phil Drake
26/02/14 – 07:54
If you look at photographs of the Yorkshire Woollen and Hebble fleet around 1970 you will see that there was no company pride. Bumps and scrapes not repaired and the bad sight of diesel stains when overfilling. Some of the destination displays were not 100 per cent.
Philip Carlton
25/03/14 – 15:30
Somewhat surprisingly, Colin Shears, who is usually a parochial West Country enthusiast, mentioned to me that Cumberland used to run Bristol SC4LK’s along Borrowdale. Would this be the route they were used on?
Peter Cook
26/03/14 – 10:59
The SC4LKs in the Cumberland fleet were known as ‘Sputniks’. According to Harry Postlethwaite in his excellent Venture publications history of Cumberland, it is alleged that the first driver to take one out said, on his return. “They should have sent that up in the Sputnik!”. That said they must have found them useful for the lightly loaded rural routes because the 5 purchased in 1957 and 1959 were supplement by 3 from United Counties and 1 from United Welsh in 1963 and a further 3 from ENOC a year later. They were used throughout the network from the web of services on the Solway plain south as far as Millom and inland to places such as Ennerdale Bridge, and on the 79 from Keswick to Seatoller. Despite this being a scenic route that penetrates the Lake District fells it follows the valley floor and, unlike parts of the coastal route, has no stiff climbs. All of these routes were later served by the MWs.
Mike Morton
31/03/14 – 07:12
Great picture. Can anyone help me with details of routs/timetables special schools and works services operated by CMS Cumberland Motor Services.?
Alisdair Goodall
02/04/14 – 08:26
Apart from timetables, the best source of information is ‘British Bus Systems No.1 – Cumberland’ by Harry Postlethwaite, published by TPC in 1983. This was later brought up to date as ‘Cumberland Motor Services 1921-1996 and published by Venture. Routes have inevitably changes over the years, especially following deregulation and take over by Stagecoach which brought in routes and vehicles operated by Barrow Corporation, and by Ribble in South Cumbria and Carlisle. Until privatisation the main area of operation was the former county of Cumberland. The main trunk route was the 30 from Whitehaven to Carlisle via Workington, Maryport and Wigton which took just over 2 hours with a headway of 30 minutes through much of the day. Other key longer routes included 12/13 Whitehaven – Egremont – Seascale – Millom, and 34/35 Whitehaven – Workington Cockermouth – Keswick. There were also town services, and a network of rural routes including market day only routes such as the Thursdays only 11 from Whitehaven to Wasdale and the 26 to Ennerdale as well as tourist routes such as the 79 Keswick to Seatoller. There was also parcels traffic and schools and work services. The latter usually carried the destination ‘works’ and included heavy traffic to Sellafield from various destinations (service 85) and from Workington to Lillyhall estate for Courtaulds, Heavy Duty Alloys and K-Shoes (service 90). There were also services to local collieries and iron mines – I often caught a school bus that had just come off the Beckermet Mine turn on a wet day, its floor red from the iron ore. There was also the 87 from Maryport and Workington to the West Cumberland Hospital at Hensingham (Whitehaven).
Mike Morton
30/10/14 – 07:06
Ex Eastern Counties ONV 430 was stabled at Cleator Moor and used on Service 44 from Cleator Moor to Workington via Moresby Parks, Pica, Distington and Harrington for several years. I clocked up many hours as a passenger on this route in the late 60’s and early 70 and I can confirm that it struggled with several of the ascents on this route – especially the climbs out of Harrington if it had to stop at Beckstone Bridge. If I remember rightly it was replaced by a LH (XRM 111J ??) before Cumberland closed the Cleator Moor depot and ran Service 44 from Workington to Pica with this service being operated by whatever was available – even coaches and DPs found themselves at Pica.
Smudge
06/02/15 – 06:35
The service 90 actually had the destination “Workmen”. One of these carried on from the Lillyhall industrial estate round the loop road in Distington to form the Schools service 43 in the 80’s. This was an unusual route as members of the public could use the bus up to Workington bus station after which it carried on to Workington Grammar School and then on to Clifton. Standard fare on this route in the early 80’s were MWs LHs and flat front REs with T type destination blinds. You needed strong arms in those days as they often rostered vehicles with sticking doors.
Ken Anderson
06/05/15 – 07:22
Nice photos my dad Tommy Thompson was a regular driver of that vehicle, he was a Whitehaven driver.
Darren Thompson
09/10/15 – 07:21
Mike Morton. You may remember me from schooldays. Occasionally I remember a really old single-decker (pre-A reg) turning up as the first bus from Seascale to Egremont. It had battered green leather seats with high curved backs and the engine was rather noisy, but I really loved that bus! Do you happen to remember it and if so, do you know what model of bus it was? I hope it has been preserved.
Karen Caldwell
09/10/15 – 17:19
Hello Karen Lovely to hear from you. That’s an incredible memory and very accurate too. The first bus that turned up on that school run was usually a standard Bristol MW bus like 231 above. However, if we were lucky, it would be one from an odd batch of that had formerly been coaches but had been converted for use as buses. These were also Bristol MWs but they dated from 1958-1960. They were numbered 222-226 (registrations VAO 390, XAO 600-601, 511-512 BRM) and some, if not all, were exactly as you describe with those curved leather seats. You can just make out the seats in the following photo of the last of them: https://www.flickr.com/photos/23207961 Sadly none have survived though 231, the standard MW in the article, is alive and kicking and regularly turns up at events all over Cumbria. The buses that followed that first one on the school run were usually a rear entrance and then a front entrance double decker (Britol Lodekka FS and FLF models). One of the former 550, which we often caught to school, has also been preserved.
Mike Morton
09/10/15 – 17:22
Karen, I remember from my visits to Keswick and district in the mid 1960’s that, before Cumberland took over the service, buses to Grange and Seatoller were operated by the ‘Keswick Borrowdale Bus Services’. According to Neville Mercer’s book “Independent Operators In North West England”, they ceased operating in 1967, and the three Bedford ‘OB’ types still in service then found homes elsewhere. Neville’s book says that two of them survive.
Pete Davies
01/01/16 – 06:53
With regard the Leyland Nationals most likely the B series these originally based on short version and simplified heating hence no pod. Introduced about 1977. Cumberland had some of first examples but many went to Crosville to replace MWs the series 2 Nationals came in early 80s and had front radiator and available in either length as type A with pod or B type without pod.
Howard
02/01/16 – 08:53
The Keswick Borrowdale Bus Services was a wonderful organisation. The contrast between the well kept OBs and the intrusion of the new fangled MW was quite something. Although the legal capacity of the OBs was considerably less than the MW the practical capacity of the OB was defined as all those that wanted to go to Keswick! The OBs always managed to keep the customer happy. If I remember correctly, only the CMS vehicles went to the bus station, the others terminating at the Moot Hall in central Keswick. My last trip on this route was on a Stagecoach open top VRT. I seem to remember it was a whitish mobile advertisement hoarding rather than the dedicated “Borrowdale Bus”. My ever suffering wife recorded the familiar sounds of the Gardner engine both in motion and idling at Grange. This made an interesting comparison with the sound of the Cummins engine of an Olympian effortlessly attacking Dunmail Rise. The evil weather has dealt a severe blow to this area and our thoughts go out to the residents.
Andrew Gosling
02/01/16 – 14:45
Even the OBs couldn’t expand to infinity! I recall waiting for the bus near Lodore, one summer evening after a long day’s hike. I guess there were a dozen or so waiting. Mr Weightman’s OB hove into view and everyone stood up expectantly. With a regretful wave from the driver, the bus sailed past – with an apparently solid mass of humanity inside! Fortunately, someone spotted a launch far out on Derwent Water, heading for the landing stage…
Stephen Ford
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
09/06/17 – 06:21
A great route and responsible in 1954 for my life long bus interest. Weightmans are not recorded as having an OB, but Askew, Simpson and Youngs, (as well as Cumberland), did. Weightman though was latterly associated with Lake Hotel coaches and they did have OB’s. Weightman sold out to Cumberland in 1958 and the three remaining operators-with OB’s to the end-formed the Keswick Borrowdale Bus Service that lasted until 1967 when Cumberland then got the whole route.
Western Scottish Motor Traction Co. Limited 1959 Bristol MW6G Alexander C41F
MSD 358; fleet number NT1494, is a 1959 Bristol MW6G, one of 52 with Alexander C41F bodies built for Western SMT. They remained in service until 1977, which speaks volumes for the build quality of the body and chassis and the thoroughness of Western’s maintenance programme. The wheel trims on the vehicle behind would suggest that its an AEC, it has a coach door, and at the risk of splitting hairs I would say this ones folding doors and grab rails on the backs of the seats are more the type associated with a DP rather than a coach. This style of body was widely used by SMT group operators, and they were a common sight on the Newcastle to Edinburgh and Glasgow services jointly operated with United. They have a resemblance to the Park Royal bodies of the era, and I always thought they were attractive vehicle. However, unlike the later “Y” type that became a common sight throughout the UK, they were never that popular South of the Border, although North Western did have a few.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
22/05/14 – 07:27
North Western’s used the BET standard bus shell (known to Alexander as the Z type) with a straight waist-rail and equal windows throughout the length except for the very rear. Alexanders just stuck their front end (as seen on this vehicle) onto the BET spec body. North Western called them “Highlanders” and painted them in coach livery. As a coach they made a perfectly acceptable dual-purpose vehicle!
Neville Mercer
22/05/14 – 07:28
Ronnie, I think you’ll find that North Western’s examples were of the straight waistrail variant. You could almost say that this one anticipated bus grant type doors by a good few years!
Chris Barker
22/05/14 – 07:28
The North Western vehicles came in 1961as Reliances in 30 ft length with a straight window line and equal length windows plus roof quarter lights. They were followed in 1962 by the 36 ft version on the Leopard chassis.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/05/14 – 07:29
Strange to think that they also had almost identical Guys. Both were highly regarded so must simply have been a dual sourcing thing. Strictly speaking, the only English examples belonged to Barton – North Western never had any of these. What North Western DID have were standard BET bodies (built by Alexanders) but with this front grafted on. These were on Reliances and its first PSU3 Leopards. The recent book on the Y type points out that this twin flat screen design lasted into the ’80s as it was still being used on AL deckers – such as those delivered between 1973 and 1981 to STD and, later, SYPTE.
David Oldfield
22/05/14 – 14:22
Fully agree with the quality of build and good maintenance Ronnie – I recall the Guys working out of Carlisle on services to Annan as late as 1976. What struck me most about Western SMT in those days was that the vehicles were usually turned out in an immaculate condition. The fully lined out livery was also superb though it lost its edge once standard SBG fleet names replaced gold at the end of the decade.
Mike Morton
23/05/14 – 07:55
As well as Barton James Smith & Co (Wigan) Ltd and the associated Webster Bros (Wigan) both had Leyland Tiger Cub versions of this body. The six Barton Tiger Cubs were operated for over 19 years and then sold on to other operators. Now that is long service particularly as Tiger Cubs were considered by many to be too lightweight and not up to the job!
Alan Oxley
23/05/14 – 07:56
David, I think that you might have forgotten the batch supplied to Smiths of Wigan, some of which later served with Green Bus. There was also the Lancashire-registered Tiger Cub/Alexander demonstrator TTB 80 which served with Caelloi Motors in Pwllheli before ending up with Partridge of Hadleigh (and burning out at the depot!)
Neville Mercer
23/05/14 – 13:06
I stand corrected. Thanks, chaps.
David Oldfield
26/05/14 – 09:36
Note the use of service number ’30X’. The joint Western SMT/Ribble Lancashire-Scottish services, on paper at least, carried different service numbers north and south of Carlisle. The daytime Manchester-Glasgow service was X30 in the Ribble series (and therefore the service number south of Carlisle) and 97A in the WSMT series (north of Carlisle). Maybe WSMT didn’t have letters in the first of the three ‘number’ blinds and so ‘X30′ was displayed as ’30X’. The night service was numbered X20 and 97B on the same basis. In the summer 1964 timetable the northbound X30 took 9 hours 45 minutes end to end (9 hours 33 minutes southbound). Quite a marathon! Can anyone tell if this photo was taken in the Manchester area? Perhaps the railway catenary at top right is a clue?
David Slater
03/06/14 – 07:35
Manchester is highly plausible, since very few places had overhead electrified railways in 1959. Manchester had two going on three (Altrincham and Sheffield, with Crewe in progress). So, taking a stab in the dark, I’d suggest the pointy building in the background is not unlike the City Road Inn at the junction of Albion Street and Whitworth Street West. That’s right beside the Altrincham line and a stone’s throw from Lower Moseley Street bus station. Though looking on Street View its hard to place the viewpoint. But so much as obviously changed around there in the intervening 55 years.
Keith
03/06/14 – 11:16
Keith has the location spot on as far as I’m concerned. This was a regular overflow parking spot for Lower Mosley St Bus Station.
Phil Blinkhorn
11/07/14 – 16:29
There was also a 1955 example of this style for Kingston Coaches on Guy Arab LUF; the furthest south this style got. Alan Oxley will know but I think either Barton or Western SMT were the last customer for this version, Barton switching to Reliances from 1955. By 1956 the Alexander and SOL were taking a straight waist variant.
Stephen Allcroft
13/10/15 – 06:27
I Remember Edinburgh Corporation had Coaches of this type in its City Tours Fleet. They were on Leyland chassis and looked very smart in there Black and Ivory Colours similar to Western SMTs London coaches. When they were finished with there coaching duties they were sold to Ulster at the beginning of the 1960s. Does anyone have any photos when they were with Edinburgh
George Fender
16/08/16 – 07:26
In the late 60’s, as a student, I travelled several times on the night bus from Manchester to Glasgow. I don’t know about other nights of the week, but on Fridays there were so many passengers that there were three buses. Once you were “in the know”, if you were going all the way to Glasgow, it paid to turn up at Lower Moseley Street half an hour in advance of the scheduled time as the first of the three buses would leave early and full and only stop at Penrith for toilets and the all-night cafe. The first time I made the journey, I was on the third bus, which left at the advertised time and stopped everywhere, of course getting to Penrith just after a lot of other buses going north and south so the queue at the cafe was just too long to contemplate. As I remember it, though, even the third bus would arrive at Glasgow much earlier than timetabled.
Typical but not typical! On Sunday, June 28, 1964, a Bristol MW5G (typical) Wells depot bus stands at Clevedon Six Ways awaiting departure on service 157. This was the first day of operation of a new (not typical in those days!) Sunday only service to attract tourists. The service didn’t run in 1965! The destination display was the BOC standard at the time, I think known to ECW as the Z layout. It was unique in the Tilling group for having a four track number display, adopted to cope with the addition of suffix letters became rife. In the city, L (short working) W (works service) and the route variations A, B, C and D were added to existing route numbers that could already have three digits.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
31/01/16 – 13:33
I grew up in Bristol and had never heard of this 157 service, maybe not surprising at it was so short lived. Suffix letter W was not used for works services. F, H and J were those generally used for extensions beyond Filton to the aircraft factories or beyond Avonmouth to the smelting and chemical works. C was used for journeys on cross-city routes terminating in the central area. K was used for school services – K for Kids, we all assumed! Bristol city services were renumbered below 100 in 1966, and at the same time Country routes were renumbered without suffix letters so four track number blinds were no longer needed.
Geoff Kerr
01/02/16 – 07:35
This picture brings back happy memories of schooldays in Wells and riding these vehicles on service 165 to Glastonbury. They were in the very smart OMO livery with more cream then.
Richard Stubbings
04/12/19 – 07:11
I have just realised that there is another ‘untypical’ aspect to this vehicle. Like 2568 – C2607, it was built with the air suspension option that became available in 1962. Eric Hardy, Chief Engineer of BOC at the time specified the air suspension option to reduce lifetime costs, including an easier life for the bodywork. BOC was the only company to specify the option for stage vehicles and I heard him complain bitterly when BCV deleted the option for the last sanctions of MWs. It was all very sad that the first MWs delivered on leaf springs to the company after the deletion of the option (2137) had dual purpose bodywork and coach livery! Pondering this anomaly, I wonder if the last batch of leaf-sprung MWs were shoe-horned into production a bit quick to fill a gap because the RE low frame chassis was running late. The outstanding orders for MWs for some companies (eg ECOC) were satisfied with air sprung – no option -RESLs!
Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1966 Bristol MW5G ECW B30D+30
One of two strange versions delivered to ECOC at about the time as the first RESLs were being delivered. Who would put a centre door on an MW with its very high centre section of chassis bearing the engine, instead of waiting a few months for a Bristol RE with its unencumbered central lower frame? The centre doors didn’t last long, I understand! I think one of them became the Kings Cliffe outstation (Northants – the furthest outstation from Norwich!) vehicle to carry higher peak loads! Thank goodness for OMO double decks very soon after! The above photograph was taken at Cremorne Lane Works, Norwich on Feb 11, 1967 before the bus entered service. It is nice to know that ECOC buses had destinations other than “SERVICE” available!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
17/03/16 – 05:13
Strange indeed, Geoff. Thanks for posting. Why would anyone in Bristol or ECW want to produce such a beast, knowing that the RE was on its way, and why would Eastern Counties want it?
Pete Davies
19/03/16 – 17:38
Stockport had dual doorway Leopards and Manchester dual doorway Tiger Cubs, Panther Cubs and Panthers and had double decker OMO working not been made legal, would have had many more Panthers.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/03/16 – 05:13
What a different MW. Was this an Eastern Counties one off or were did other Tilling Companies have them? Strange to see the glazed roof coves, on both sides too. Also I would have expected the exit door to be in the next bay forward of where it is.
Ian Wild
17/03/16 – 05:14
Well, to answer your question about who would put a centre door on an MW, Wilts & Dorset did the same to a converted coach. I think it ran for a few years in that form, but I cannot find any photos on the web at the moment.
Nigel Frampton
17/03/16 – 07:54
Thanks for that, Nigel. Converting a down-graded coach is one thing, and I think I have a ‘bought’ slide of it somewhere – I’ll see if I can dig it out for others to see if they wish – but one straight off the factory line?
Pete Davies
17/03/16 – 09:16
This was an attempt, it seems, at a standee bus but where for, I know not. I thought there were some similar Leeds efforts on this site with steep steps and standee windows, but can’t spot them- did they try one or two types?
Joe
17/03/16 – 09:17
The centre door as placed would be the only option – the bay further forward had the engine oil sump come well over to the nearside. The glazed roof coves look to be the ‘standard’ parts from coach MWs and presumably were added because of the standee nature of the bus (for the same reason as Reading’s REs had very tall side windows).
Peter Delaney
17/03/16 – 10:46
Joe, Leeds had saloons with centre entrance bodies all bodied by Roe and all featuring the standee windows. They were repeated on the AEC Swifts with Roe bodywork delivered in 1967. The original standee saloons were on Guy, AEC and Leyland chassis with a later pair of Reliances entering service in the late fifties.
Chris Hough
17/03/16 – 15:22
There is a photo of this vehicle when new in MG Doggett & AA Townsin’s book ‘ECW 1965-1987’. It was one of two trial dual-door standee MW5Gs (LM640/641) delivered to ECOC in November 1966. Each was capable of carrying 60 passengers – 30 seated and 30 standing – but were of differing internal layout. The accompanying caption states “the area for standing passengers was concentrated at the rear of LM640(KAH 640D), there being single seats on each side of the gangway towards the rear to provide a standing area behind the exit doorway”. An interior shot of LM640 shows this feature, together with normal double seats at each side ahead of the exit door. Relating to the second standee MW LM641(KAH 641D), the authors state that “a row of single seats were provided along the offside of the vehicle to give room for a standing area along its length”. A picture of the interior shows this together with a longitudinal seat over the front offside wheelarch, plus normal double seats along the nearside from front to rear. Regarding Geoff’s comment about the height of the steps at the central exit, dual doorway REs also had steps there as the RESL/RELL chassis sloped up gradually towards the rear in order to clear the engine. The exit steps were probably shallower on the RE, but being just ahead of the rear axle I would not have thought by very much though. A fascinating pair of vehicles indeed, and thank you very much for posting the photo of LM641 Geoff. Wonderful.
Brendan Smith
18/03/16 – 09:03
In my response to Nigel Frampton’s comment, I said I thought I had and would try to dig out a slide of the Wilts & Dorset converted coach. It’s attached, as is a view of one of Lancaster’s trio of twin-door Leopards. BOTH are bought, and I’ve no idea who took the originals. The Wilts came via Paul Caudell and the Leopard came via Arnold Richardson’s Photobus collection.
What makes Wilts & Dorset RMR 992 look even more odd is the old coach-type forward door and its kink in the pillar. So far as I can recall, 101 to 103 UTF were the only twin door vehicles Lancaster bought (prior to the merger with Morecambe & Heysham) and I think it must have been something of a failed experiment – the centre door was hardly ever activated on the services I used. Wilts & Dorset RMR 992 is seen at what looks to be Salisbury Bus Station and Lancaster 102 UTF is inside Kingsway depot.
Pete Davies
18/03/16 – 15:52
Never thought I would find myself contributing to a post on an Eastern Counties MW but KAH 641D was the only one of its type that I have ever driven. This came about after ECOC took over Burwell & District Motor Services on 10th June 1979. The new regime, under a youthful Ben Colson went to great lengths to cover B&D commitments as required by the Traffic Commissioners at the time. B&D operated a contract/service (not 100% sure which) at the time to carry pupils from Burwell to Soham Village College which parents had to pay for as the free option was for Burwell pupils to go to Newmarket Upper School, for which B&D provided 3 or 4 buses daily. This bus was drafted in briefly to cover odd runs and my diary records that on Friday 15th. June 1979 I was on a rest day but came in to cover the 08:15 Burwell-Soham service 116 with LM641. This journey was made a short working of the established (and much missed) service 116 from Newmarket to ELy, via Burwell. Fortunately I had my camera with me and stopped in a layby on the way back to Burwell to take a photo as I have always tried to keep a record of every vehicle that I have driven. I was able to wind on the correct route number but with no blind fitted it was not even possible to display the favourite ECOC destination of SERVICE! My PM duty was 16:00 Newmarket school-Burwell with the same bus, no doubt I was paid more for those 2 short journeys as a rest day working than I would have earned from driving back and forth all day from Burwell to Cambridge with B&D. The best thing in my memory of ECOC was the wages, as I only lasted 3 months before they gave me till the end of the week to join the union, so I gave them till the end of the week to find another driver!
Jim Neale
19/03/16 – 06:48
Another batch of two-door underfloor engined single deckers was London Transport’s RW 1-3 the experimental AEC Reliance/Willowbrook delivered in 1960 and sold to Chesterfield in 1963. The exit door on these was one bay further forward and they also glazed cove panels five on the O/S but only three on the N/S none being fitted over the centre door.
Diesel Dave
19/03/16 – 09:27
Rochdale had two batches of AEC Reliances with dual door bodies. Weymann bodied 16-20 and East Lancs bodied 21-23. The East Lancs version had the ‘centre’ door further forward, immediately behind the front wheel while the Weymanns had it just in front of the rear wheel. These buses were all introduced as opo vehicles onto routes previously worked by double deckers which at that time in the early sixties obviously had conductors. The dual door arrangement was intended to speed up boarding and alighting times to counter the delay of the driver having to collect fares.
Philip Halstead
19/03/16 – 17:41
Stockport had dual doorway Leopards and Manchester dual doorway Tiger Cubs, Panther Cubs and Panthers and had double decker OMO working not been made legal, would have had many more Panthers.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/03/16 – 06:42
Looking through the comments made me think and check out my memory and I found yet more two door underfloor single deckers in the form of Lincoln City Transport No’s 81-87 Reg No’s MFE 993-999 Tiger Cubs with Roe B41D bodies with the exit door just in front of the rear wheels new in late 1958. Also Portsmouth Corporation had a batch of Tiger Cubs No’s 16-25 Reg No’s TTP 990-999. with Weymann B34D bodies with the exit door in a similar position new in May 1960.
Diesel Dave
20/03/16 – 08:31
This is becoming a very interesting discussion. My point was that, until the advent of the AEC Swift, Leyland Panther and Bristol RE was that twin-door single deckers were something of a rarity and, yes, even then, many fleets stayed with the single door. All I can think of was that it may well have been an experiment to see if loading/unloading times improved, and by how much, in the early days of one-man operation. My experience is that most operators went back to single door vehicles.
Pete Davies
20/03/16 – 10:07
Although not common-place in the early 50s, more underfloor engined single deckers were built as dual door saloons by Bristol/ECW than the ones mentioned so far. Over a decade before the MW, ECW bodied one of the prototype Bristol LS (NHU 2) with dual doors – in that case with the additional doorway behind the rear axle. Hants and Dorset’s bus bodied LS were all delivered in that format, though converted to front door only in the late 1950s, and United Counties also had batches in similar style, some as DP rather than bus versions, whilst Wilts and Dorset had several batches of dual doorway DP LSs. I think Eastern National may also had an example to that layout. The structure of an LS frame was such as to dictate the position of the rear doorway.
Peter Delaney
23/03/16 – 05:43
Here we see RMR 992 again now with “Hants & Dorset”. It seems to have had a rather hard time of it since it was last washed.
David Grimmett
23/03/16 – 17:17
Such damage in service is so typical of the drop in standards once NBC took over. I say this because the vehicle is clearly not in a depot. Do we know where this photo was taken, David? And I notice that H&D has adopted the useful ECOC destination of SERVICE!
Chris Hebbron
24/03/16 – 05:57
Chris, the later photo of RMR992 looks to be in Salisbury Bus Station. W&D did also make use of “Service” in the destination displays, although not as much as some.
Nigel Frampton
24/03/16 – 05:57
Yes, RMR 992 could still have looked a handsome bus, even with its rebuild to bus use. The mid-door for exit is reasonably done, and the revised indicators are very neat. Even the metal trim below the windows has been retained. However, we sadly miss the Tilling red of Wilts & Dorset or Tilling green of Hants & Dorset, either of which would make this a bus to be proud of. Sadly, this didn’t happen here, with the side dent, and it’s need of a wash. The use of “service” as a destination is also regrettable. Hopefully passengers had a good ride, as it retains the upper windows to lighten the interior.
Michael Hampton
24/03/16 – 05:57
RMR 992 is on the stand, reversed in, in Salisbury bus station. The bus station layout was a reversed L with access from the offside of the bus. It was in the seventies that buses started driving on to this stand and reversing off,rather than reversing on.
Steve Barnett
24/03/16 – 16:56
According to BBF No 1 Portsmouth Corporation had a batch of 10 dual Door PSUC1/1 Tiger cubs Nos 16 – 25 in 1950 and 31 Leopard L1s Nos 131 – 161 in 1961/62/66.
Barrie Lee
25/03/16 – 16:09
Of course the London Reliances were based on the Grimsby Cleethorpes design of which there were 24 (the last ones to the later BET design) and both Chesterfield and Aberdare were also customers. I wonder if it was Willowbrook’s advertisements that led to LT purchasing their three: www.flickr.com/photos/One www.flickr.com/photos/Two
Stephen Allcroft
26/03/16 – 05:14
Barrie Lee has correctly identified the Tiger Cubs of Portsmouth (Nos 16-25, delivered 1959 and into service 1960), but the L1 Leopards were Nos 131-142 (1961) and 143-149 (1963). They were all dual entrance/exit, the Tiger Cubs being B34D+26 (soon altered to B32D+26 for a luggage rack), and the Leopards were all B42D+16. If I recall correctly, the main “standee” space was centrally placed opposite the exit doors. The saloons numbered 150-161 were Panther Cubs new in 1967. Portsmouth had a possibly unique arrangement for the exit doors. Some time ago, I contributed an article about it on this site, “One Small Step for a Portsmouth Passenger”. This arrangement applied to these and all succeeding saloons, plus later Atlanteans until the arrival of the Leyland National.
Michael Hampton
26/03/16 – 05:14
Halifax JOC took delivery of a solitary L2 Leopard with Weymann two-door body in 1961 (231, OCP 231). It was not viewed with favour by the drivers’ union membership and I believe the centre door remained closed in service. It lived a shadowy existence in this form, being mostly banished to working the local Field Lane and Oaklands services based in Brighouse. Another sixteen similar Leopards based on the more appropriate L1 chassis and with single door layout were due in 1962, and 231 was soon sent back to Weymann to be rebuilt to match them.
John Stringer
27/03/16 – 07:30
Regarding RMR 992: did this just retain an unpowered front coach door after conversion to dual-door configuration? – both photographs suggest the door is locked open.
Philip Rushworth
27/03/16 – 09:56
I remember traveling on RMR when it found itself at Romsey outstation and I’m sure the door front door was electrically run as it was one-man operated (as we used to know it!).
Steve Barnett
28/03/16 – 11:12
I am reasonably sure that, in David Grimmett’s photo of RMR 992 (23/03/16 at 05:43), the vehicle is, in fact, still in Tilling Red. It is the same shade as the adjacent LH, which is clearly still in Tilling livery, the cream window surrounds being the determining factor. Accepting that colour reproduction can vary on different computer systems, monitors, etc, but this colour looks quite different to the rather orangey appearance of NBC red in the first couple of years. H&D applied NBC style fleetnames to a lot of vehicles that were still in Tilling liveries, and this roughly followed the instructions of the NBC corporate image policy. However, that required the cream relief to be repainted white, even if the complete vehicle was not painted, and that white fleetnames should be applied. In practice, H&D seem only to have used a few white fleetnames in this way, and most of the temporary ones were cream, which better matched the original livery, and the cream relief was also left untouched. Presumably, since RMR 992 didn’t have any cream relief, it was deemed appropriate to use a white fleetname. H&D and W&D purchased several single deckers with dual doors from the 1950s to the early 1970s, but there seems to have been a distinct absence of logic. The LSs all seem to have been rebuilt to single door configuration quite early in their lives, but then, from the mid 1960s, virtually all new single deck buses had two doors – the Bedfords, the RELL buses, and even the first deliveries of LHs. The RELL DPs had only one door, but soon tended to be used interchangeably with their dual door bus-seated sisters, particularly when the earlier DPs were replaced on longer distance services by newer deliveries. The passengers were no doubt simply confused, and probably found the five extra seats of the DPs more useful than the extra door. When Leyland Nationals took over from REs as standard single deck fare, the dual door policy was abandoned altogether.
Nigel Frampton
28/03/16 – 13:33
The motto of 360 Squadron, Royal Air Force, seems to apply in Nigel’s explanation of the H&D/W&D liveries under NBC – CONFUNDEMUS (We shall throw into confusion).
Pete Davies
08/04/16 – 06:09
Peter D mentions older two door ECW LS bodies. They were built in the era before OPO (if that is the PC phrase). I suspect that the management attitude was that the conductor would be at the rear to look after that door, despite being power operated. I am sure most conductors would gravitate to the front to chat to the driver. The ‘Do not speak to the driver…’ notices were a later addition required for the certification of a vehicle to operate OPO. With regard to ECOC LM641, I was interested to see that two vehicles had different internal layouts. I was area engineer in the east then and both vehicles probably ‘went west’. I also surmise that the vehicles were part of GM Tom Skinner’s innovations see Eastern Counties – selected memories and that they may have been initiated before the delivery of REs was anticipated. The final MW deliveries were getting so late that many Tilling companies had their orders truncated and centrally(?) replaced by RESLs (the nearest replacement, rather than RELLs). I don’t think the 46 seater RESL caused Union problems at ECOC, being one over the more normal 45 seat maximum, but going beyond that certainly needed negotiation in all companies! In Jim Neale’s photo of LM641 from 1979, it is interesting to see that the last nearside quarter light has been reglazed with black rubber – the cream version didn’t stay in production for very long. I would have expected the front destination to be so treated, for in the eastern area the MW destination glass was just the right height to hit a tardy pheasant that had been taken by surprise and several needed replacement on outstation based vehicles!
Geoff Pullin
13/05/16 – 06:04
The “Omnibus Magazine” of June 1967 states that LM640 and LM641 were allocated to Bury St. Edmunds and Peterborough on March 1st 1967 but had returned to store at Norwich within two weeks. Clearly they weren’t very popular!
Western National Omnibus Co Ltd 1966 Bristol MW6G ECW C39F
I’m sending you this picture of Bristol MW EDV 502D and EDV 505D because they entered service with Western National in May 1966 – 50 years ago this month. 502D was built in the Jan and 505D in the April. They are Bristol MW6G with ECW C39F body. Unusual in being in Royal Blue colours but with Western National branding in red. They were the third and final design of Bristol MW and some of their detail you can see in the Bristol RE Coaches. They look just as elegant and modern 50 years on. They came together for a special photo shoot at the Taunton running day on May 8th 2016. EDV 502D had been in service during the event running trips to Wellington. EDV 505D had been on static display. The owners drove them round to be photographed in Taunton bus station. They are next scheduled to be together during the Royal Blue Run in June. There already previous pictures of Royal Blue runs on your site. These two vehicles came out of Western National service in 1978
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
19/05/16 – 06:24
Nice, Ken! Thanks for posting. It’s very rare to see sisters posed like this . . .
Pete Davies
25/05/16 – 17:59
Of course Glasgow Vintage Vehicle Trust look after ex Western SMT MSD 407-8 and the vehicle history suggests they’ve been together in service and preservation ever since they were bodied at Stirling. //gvvt.org/stock-list
