Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1935 AEC Regent I Roberts H24/24R
If there is one thing I am definite on and that is I did not take this photo, this bus had been withdrawn from service three years before I was born. There has been another bus with a Roberts body it was a 1948 Samuel Ledgard AEC Regent III you can see it here and gleam a little information about the Wakefield body builder.
22/01/12 – 16:43
Going back here to quite an early posting. There had indeed been a no. 22 (JX 2037) of 1935 with Roberts body, which had been withdrawn in 1948, but here we see the former no. 71 (JX 7059) with very obvious Roe body, new in 1939. In the Corporation (‘A’ Fleet) renumbering scheme of 1952 all the remaining prewar Regents were renumbered in the series 11 to 35, Park Royal-bodied 75 (JX 6931) becoming 22, and Roe-bodied 71 (JX 7059) becoming 34. 22 was withdrawn in 1954. By 1957 there were just three remaining – 20, 21 and 34 – whereupon 34 was renumbered 22 to put it with the others. They were finally withdrawn in 1958, so the photo was taken in 1957/58, 22 laying over on Thrum Hall Lane whilst waiting to operate a Sports Special from the former Halifax RLFC rugby ground.
Douglas Corporation 1939 AEC Regent I Northern Counties H27/25R
The AEC Regent I first appeared at the 1929 Olympia show it was more or less a cut down version of the six wheeled AEC Renown. AEC coded the early Regents chassis 661 has it had a 6 cylinder 6.1 litre petrol engine, it was 1935 when the code changed to 0661 the “O” stood for oil because it was then when a 7.7 litre oil (diesel) engine became available. The chassis number for the above bus is O6615965 and it was withdrawn from service with Douglas Corporation in 1967 that is 28 years of service not many buses can boast that.
Douglas Corporation had four Regent 1 buses delivered between 1937-39 numbered 47-50 only no 50 had the diesel engine the others were petrol, not sure if any were later re-engined with a diesel units. And another thing, about no 50 lasting 28 years, about 60% of Douglas Corporation buses were laid up apart for the tourist season when they were needed, so it stands to reason they would last longer.
Spencer
18/10/11 – 05:40
You can hardly call the Regent I a “cut-down Renown”, since it preceded the Renown as model 661, the Renown being the 663. J.G. Rackham, the designer, never made any secret of the fact that he thought six-wheel buses were an archaic idea, and he only produced the Renown to keep London General happy. Incidentally, the main argument in favour of the six-wheel bus was originally that it provided room for another set of brake drums, in the period when mechanical brakes on a steering axle were still beyond the chassis designers and stopping power with rear-wheel brakes only on a two axle bus was marginal to say the least! LGOC Renowns, with 60 seats, offered no more capacity than the STL, some of which were also built as 60-seaters.
David Jones
23/10/11 – 11:40
Sorry for delay in answering your comment David. As I was not around in 1929 (although there’s time when I feel as if I could have been) I must have found the information from either the web or in a book well it was one of my books “Buses and Trolleybuses 1919 – 1945” by David Kaye.
I quote the opening paragraph for the AEC Regent entry.
“Thirty-nine years is a long time for a model to keep going, but that is the time gap between the appearance of the Regent Mark I at the 1929 Olympia Show and the continued production of the Regent Mark V in 1968. Needless to say there is little in common between the two extremes, but it has been a long tale of evolution. This 4 wheeled double-deck chassis was originally called the 661 model and had a wheelbase of 15ft 6½ins., its engine was new 6 cylinder AEC 6·1 litre unit, and in most respects it was really a smaller form of the Renown 6 wheeler.”
And here the first line for the Renown entry.
“In 1929 AEC introduced the 6 wheeled Renown model 663”
Both new 1929 eh, so was the Regent a cut down Renown or was the Renown an extended Regent?
Peter
02/12/12 – 10:55
This is from a book about Manx buses as I wasn’t around for much bar the last few years of the following buses lives. ‘Douglas Corporations pre-war AEC Regents were 41-50. 41-44 were type 661 and kept their petrol engines, 45-49 were also 661s but received 7.7 diesels from ex London Transport STLs in the mid-1950s. 50 and all subsequent Douglas buses had diesel engines except for some post-war Bedford OWBs.’
Paul Mason
03/12/12 – 14:08
I’m sure Douglas 50 was preserved when withdrawn and came to England and was registered something like SMU 222F. It was kept in Huddersfield for a while but I don’t know its whereabouts now.
Eric Bawden
03/12/12 – 16:30
The late Brian Crowther, proprietor of Black Prince Coaches, Morley, bought No. 50 in 1968 reputedly for £30 and shipping to Liverpool was £100. It was registered SWU 222F and rallied for a while before sale to Roy Marshall. According to the PSV Circle Preserved Buses 2006, it was then back at Douglas with ‘Jennings’ as owner and recorded as being DMN 650 again. If anyone has the 2012 edition, perhaps they can confirm whether it has moved on again.
John Darwent
04/12/12 – 07:10
As to which came first, the 661 or the 663, Alan Townsin’s book “Blue Triangle” gives the date of completion of the prototype Regent as 13th February 1929. The second prototype Regent was delivered to the National Omnibus and Transport Company in Colchester on 12th April 1929. However, the very first Renown 663 to be supplied to the LGOC was licensed in August 1929. G.J.Rackham was not a devotee of the six wheeled bus concept, and it is probable that his initial ideas were focused upon the two axle Regent, though the emergence of the Renown at a date so closely behind that of the Regent means that the two designs must have progressed more or less simultaneously. Also, the chassis of the Renown was not quite an extended Regent. Whilst being virtually identical with the Regent at the front end, the Renown chassis widened out more at the rear to accept the fitment of single tyres on the bogie.
Back on the subject of the Douglas Regents, here are two shots of No.50 taken on London – Brighton HCVC Rallies. The first picture was taken at Marine Parade, Brighton in May 1969, and the second shows it at South Croydon en route to Brighton in May 1972.
Roger Cox
04/12/12 – 11:44
I wasn’t far out with my SMU rather than SWU. On the subject of three axle buses, in general were both rear axles driven or just one? I seem to think Huddersfields BUT trolleys had both axles driven.
Eric Bawden
04/12/12 – 16:54
Preserved buses can be found on the Classic Manx Buses website. No. 50 appears under year 1939 www.skylineaviation.co.uk/
John Darwent
05/12/12 – 07:33
It was usual for both rear axles to be driven on three axle buses and trolleybuses. The driven axles incorporated a ‘third’ differential (incorporated in the leading differential) to balance the drive between the two driven axles and to alleviate the stresses that led to broken half shafts etc.(Karrier, didn’t initially incorporate the ‘third’ differential with the resultant failures of half shafts). Leyland built a number of three axle Tigers pre 1940, some of which had both rear axles driven and some of which had the third axle not driven – described as trailing. This was reflected in the designations such as Tiger TS7D (for both axles driven) and Tiger TS7T (for a trailing third axle). As a boy I was fascinated by watching the rear axles of Nottingham’s BUT 9641T trolleybuses turning at the tight service 43 turning circle at Trent Bridge. The nearside wheel on the third axle was almost at at standstill during the turn – the third differential doing its ‘stuff’.
Michael Elliott
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/11/15 – 10:10
Despite the ‘O’ on its chassis number, DCT 50, like its 9 predecessors entered service with a petrol engine. I can vouch for this, having travelled on it in the in the 1940’s. It would appear that its chassis had been around for some time before Douglas acquired it, as its chassis number is lower than that of number 49 delivered a year earlier. DCT did not operate diesels until the arrival of Daimler CWA Utilities 51-53 in 1945 (just after I had started school). Number 50 was re-equipped with a secondhand diesel engine in the 1950’s along with numbers 46-49. It is now back in the Isle of Man awaiting restoration. Full details were recorded by the late Mike Goodwyn in ‘Manx Transport Review’, whose research at source corrected this and several other several misconceptions.
Photo by unknown if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1936 AEC Regent I Metro Cammell H56R
Provincial certainly got there moneys worth out of the buses they bought either new or second hand and in the case of the above bus it was originally owned by Nottingham Corporation. Bought in 1954 this bus was originally fleet no 213 with Nottingham. This was not the only bus bought from Nottingham as I have a shot of another Regent I all be it one year younger and with a Craven body I will post it on site one day. One strange thing about this bus was the route number box positioned at the back of the engine bay it looks as if it was an after thought, is engine bay the correct term for there? if not let me know leave a comment.
This bus was withdrawn in 1961 after a total of 25 years service with I can more or less safely say the original body.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
The number box under the canopy was the standard Provincial method of indicating route number.
ps I should add that, when I was a young boy in the late 1940’s, I’m fairly sure that Provincial routes were unnumbered. When it was decided to number them, these route number boxes were provided under the canopy and, if my memory is correct, also inside the rear nearside window on the lower deck. so, in a way, you are correct in assuming that they were an afterthought. Compared to the other local buses of Southdown, Hants & Dorset and Portsmouth Corporation, the Provincial buses were regarded as bone shakers but what a wonderful fleet for the enthusiast. There were so many one-offs that I could often tell the registration of a bus when I saw it in the distance. Like many things in life, you don’t realise what you have lost until it is gone.
Nigel Fall
A great picture and little pieces of information. I remember these or similar with great affection being a Gosport boy.
Martyn Cross
What’s that- as well?- between the top front windows? Must have been a lovely summery day- even the windscreen is open: that’s a memory too!
Joe
That between the top front windows was a throw-back to its previous incarnation in Nottingham, who at one time seemed to feel that a route number mounted aloft was A Jolly Good Thing. However, many were subsequently remodelled in a more conventional style, and I think one or two of the latter accompanied CTO 387 to Provincial (ETV 785, ex-NCT 65 for example.)
Stephen Ford
Provincial introduced route numbers in 1950. There were four ex Nottingham vehicles in the fleet during the late 50s/early 60s, viz: 62 (DAU 462); 63 (above) and 64/65 (ETV 778/85), the last one being acquired in 1957 as a replacement for vehicles lost in the fire at Hoeford depot. The Craven-bodied example (62) was partially rebuilt during the late 1950s and ended up with a front destination layout to Provincial’s standard design of the time (see photo of 10 (FHO 602) below). All the Nottingham vehicles had been withdrawn by 1961, but were kept as sources of spares until being dispatched to a Basingstoke scrap dealer in 1963.
Stephen Didymus
04/08/13 – 06:39
Yes, I remember route numbers being introduced in 1950. I excitedly told my mum that my bus home from Leesland School was now called Route 6 (Gosport Ferry to Grange Estate via Whitworth Road). Ten years later I spent an enjoyable summer as a conductor on Provincial in between leaving school and starting at university.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1937 AEC Regent I Craven H56R
Here is another of the four ex Nottingham Regents that Provincial acquired in 1954 it was fleet number 220 in the Nottingham fleet. According to Stephen Didymus this vehicle was partially rebuilt during the late 1950s and ended up with a front destination layout to Provincial’s standard design of the time. Craven bodybuilders were located at Sheffield their main business appeared to be railway carriages but they also made tram and bus bodies. During the war they apparently made the wings for the “Horsa” troop carrying gliders, and components for the Lancaster bombers. They also built 120 AEC RT type vehicles for London Transport but they were not built to the same specification as the rest having five bay bodies instead of four is one example. Not being to the same specification also meant that their bodies would not be interchangeable with others RTs built by other bodybuilders so they did not last long with London Transport and were soon sold off.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
Sheffield Transport’s 15 1948 Regent IIIs and the RTs were probably Cravens’ swansong before they concentrated on production of trams and then railway rolling stock – especially DMUs. What isn’t widely known is that Cravens bought East Lancs in the early sixties, after a chance meeting of the chairmen of both companies. At the same time, they tried to expand by opening Neepsend Coachworks in that same district of Sheffield. Although Neepsend closed after only four years, both it and East Lancs were subsidiaries of Cravens – Neepsend was never owned by East Lancs. Cravens soon sold out to the bigger John Brown Group – a steel manufacturer in Sheffield – who eventually sold East Lancs on to Dawson Williams and Drawlane (which became British Bus and, eventually, Arriva).
David Oldfield
Nostalgic picture. I can recall the pre-war Regents working in Nottingham in the early 50s. 50 of this Cravens bodied version were supplied about 1938 (DAU451-500, running numbers 72-76 and 214-258). Metro-Cammell supplied a total of 93 (I think) during 1936-37, and Northern Counties 35 in 1935. From the sound, I would judge that they were all pre-selectors. I think that all varieties were originally built with narrow upstairs front windows flanking a central route number box, but most were subsequently rebuilt in the style shown on the photo. The Cravens had a slightly glowering appearance, and the Northern Counties had a more rounded dome and less steeply raked front. Internally, the three series were similar. Lighting was by naked bulbs in oval “volcano” fittings – except for the Northern Counties which had big circular “volcanos”. The Cravens and MCs had plunger bells instead of “push once” buttons. Nearly all were displaced from front line service by the 1953-55 deliveries of Park Royal Regent IIIs (OTV127-198 with running numbers matching the registration). It was this that released various of them for sale to Provincial around 1954. Click here to see one in Nottingham about 1948.
Cheltenham District 1934 AEC Regent I Weymann H30/24R
When my photos of the Cheltenham & District Albion Venturer CX19 No. 72, were published they attracted a comment from Ian Thompson which read as follows- “Three of the civilised and handsome Weymann-bodied 56-seat AEC Regents, mentioned by Chris, went in 1947 to fellow Red & White company Venture of Basingstoke, passing in 1951 to Wilts & Dorset. They were DG 9819 (No. 2) and DG 9820 (No. 3) of 1934, and BAD 30 (No. 10) of 1936. I remember seeing them (and secretly clambering aboard them in the AWRE Aldermaston bus park in 1955-56).”
Above are two photos of No.2, firstly looking immaculate with Cheltenham & District on 23rd May 1939 and then, about 1952, as ex-Venture 91, looking a little careworn on a filthy day, after Wilts & Dorset had taken over Venture.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
This later-life picture of DG 9818 brings back not only happy memories of AWRE Aldermaston bus park in the 50s, but also a question that has niggled me for years. I was never content with bus-spotting from outside and was always curious about staircases and upstairs seating layout. I very distinctly recall a decker whose staircase started in the usual way–three or four steps rising towards the offside rear corner–but then instead of turning to rise forward, it made a 180-degree turn to debouch upstairs facing the nearside. The two forward-facing seats opposite the top step were only singles. I don’t remember any incursion downstairs: the whole staircase fitted into the platform-well. My admittedly fallible memory recalls this bus as one of the Cheltenham trio, but when I asked a retired Cheltenham driver about it sixteen years ago he could recall no such layout; nor could Colin Martin, author of Cheltenham’s Trams and Early Buses (Tempus 2001) and other authoritative bus books. I’ve studied hard the photos of the DGs and BADs in Colin’s books and in Venture Limited by Birmingham and Pearce (1995) and in Wilts and Dorset, by Colin Morris and Andrew Waller (Hobnob 2006) and can see nothing that suggests what I recall. The DGs had only 24 seats downstairs and the BADs 26, but they all seated 30 upstairs, so there again there’s nothing to back me up. I begin to wonder whether the bus that I recall so clearly wasn’t an ex-Cheltenham after all, but then whose was it? All the E. Yorkshire Beverley Bar buses I’ve clambered around on seem to have had conventional stairs but with Roe-type square top steps. Can anyone disentangle me? Thanks! And thanks, Chris H, for the pictures.
Ian Thompson
10/02/11 – 10:16
These three AECs which went to Venture as nos 85, 88 and 91 all had Gardner engines on arrival at Venture. The front bulkhead downstairs had a large rectangular panel (with round corners) protruding into the lower saloon above the flywheel cover – presumably because the Gardner 6LW took up more room than the standard AEC. They sounded rather like tractors compared with the usual Venture AECs. The staircases did indeed turn through 180 degrees and the top step protruded into the lower saloon above the off-side sideways seat next to the staircase: it was rather oval-shaped and a good example of the metalworker’s art as despite the many footsteps no dents or bumps were visible. It was just large enough for a footstep. There was no danger of a passenger bumping a head as upon standing up the body was clear of the intrusion.
Michael Peacock
24/03/12 – 09:25
As a kid I remember traveling to school on these old AEC Regents. One of the features of the Weymann coachwork was access to the destination blinds on the top deck by undoing two latches thus enabling one to alter the route number. As some of the stops were shared by more than one route such action caused some concern to passengers and did not last very long as astute conductors would remove us guilty or otherwise.
Deryck
06/12/12 – 16:54
Somehow I managed to miss Michael Peacock and Deryck’s comments on the Cheltenham Regents that ended their careers with Wilts and Dorset, and have only just read them! It’s a relief to know that my recollection of the odd staircase wasn’t mistaken after all. I think this arrangement must have been a Balfour Beatty speciality, as it’s shared by the 1949 Notts and Derby BUT/Weymann H32/26R trolleybus at the West of England collection at Winkleigh, Devon, which I saw only two months ago. Given the above-average upper deck seating capacity, the nearly-180-degree staircase was obviously space-thrifty. Belated thanks to Michael and Deryck for shedding more light on these fascinating vehicles.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1938 AEC Regent I Weymann H56R
On 31st December 1962, a heavy snowfall occurred in the Portsmouth area, an unusual happening, and the snowy conditions lingered on until the March of 1963. The immediate consequence in Portsmouth was that Portsmouth’s trolleybuses bounced on the snow-packed uneven and unsalted roads to the extent that the poles came off the wires, with motor buses having to take over for a day or so! On the other side of Portsmouth Harbour, having come to grief in a ditch, the first photo shows Provincial 48 (JML 784) about to be recovered from a ditch in Brookers Lane (outskirts of Gosport), unusually by a Royal Navy crane, on 2nd January. A Royal Naval Air Station was only a few miles away at Lee-on-Solent. The second photo shows the bus “in full swing” and about to land on “all foursâ” again. No.48 started life as a demonstrator, prior to being taken into “Provincial” stock on 01.05.39, being numbered 48 in October 1939. The accident was not fatal to the vehicle, for it lasted in service until 27.08.64, a creditable 25 years with Provincial in total.
Photos by kind permission of David Whitaker. Copy by Chris Hebbron, with vehicle’s history taken with his permission from Ray Tull’s “Provincial” website www.regent8.co.uk
19/05/12 – 15:38
There’s an active “interest” group ‘The Provincial Society’. They have a website as follows: www.provincialsociety.org
London Transport 1930 AEC Regent 1 Tilling or Dodson (H27/25RO)
“John Whitaker was interested in Christopher Dodson bus bodies built for operators outside London and I mentioned that Tilling had purchased 30 Dodson-bodied AEC Regents for their Brighton operation. I’ve now found out that they were identical to the 191 AEC Regents they operated in South London, some with Tilling and some with Dodson bodies. In London, they were in the range ST837-1027. I attach a photo of the sole remaining example (ST 922 – GJ 2098), albeit it a London example, although Tilling’s livery was not that different from this example. To me, It looks odd because I only recall them with terrible body sag and this one doesn’t have it, having being completely restored! Once in London Transport’s hands, they were greatly unloved, but that’s another story!”
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
13/11/11 – 10:31
Many thanks Chris for the marvellous photo of GJ 2098. The 30 Tilling STs bodied by Dodson were built to Tilling design. Dodson design bodies were common in the “Pirate” fleets, and some Provincial municipal fleets too, notably Wolverhampton. The latter had many 6 wheel interpretations on Guy chassis and are worthy of an article in themselves! Many of these Tilling STs were transferred to other Tilling fleets during the war, and many were rebodied and/or re-engined. Of particular interest to me are the 3 vehicles lent to BCPT (Bradford) to enable the Stanningley tram route to be abandoned in 1942. These were GJ 2027, 2055, and GK 6242. These were accompanied by some Leeds “Regents” and 3 “General” STs. Pity I cannot remember them, but I was only 2! The body sag you refer to seems apparent on every photo I have seen, but they did “soldier on” in trying conditions. 3 more vehicles of this species are also close to my heart in the form of York-West Yorkshire ADG 1-3, which started life in the form depicted in your superb photograph. Incidentally, Wolverhampton 6 wheelers can be seen in the You Tube reference you gave on the recent post concerning the “White Heather” coach! Great Stuff!
John Whitaker
13/11/11 – 17:11
I’m sure that I’ve read somewhere that, of the later STL-type Tilling Regents which went to London Transport, still with three bay upstairs front windows, but inside staircases, a batch also also went to Brighton. Both deliveries had Tilling bodies, though. The above ST sub-class were due for withdrawal on the cusp of the war. They were all withdrawn by LT, along with all other petrol-engined vehicles, when war broke out. Several suffered from war damage and their chassis went to the Home Guard, either as armoured personnel carriers, others as complete vehicles, to become (Home) guard posts. Then they were spread around England/Wales to fill shortages. For example, ST844 spent time in Coventry, Walsall & Rhondda. ST851 went to Sunderland, then Bradford & Aberdare. The longest one away was ST1005, which left for Venture, Basingstoke in December 1941, not returning until January 1947. On return, it went into store for a few months, then was scrapped, a typical end for returnees. I’ve always had a soft spot for them, loyal, uncomplaining servants, past their sell-by date in 1939 and kept away from the limelight thereafter! Amazingly, some lasted until late 1949, nevertheless. They were strangers to Morden, Surrey, where I lived, but I can recall travelling on a couple of stalwarts seeing out their final, challenging, stint on the Epsom Races specials. I was a mere stripling aged 11, bunking off from school!
Chris Hebbron
25/11/11 – 13:28
I only ever saw one ST, and it was 922, mouldering in Rush Green Motors’ scrapyard somewhere out in the bundu between Hertford and Ware in 1952. Its roof gave it away over the dense scrub which rimmed the yard, for it could be just glimpsed from the top deck of a London Country RT. I made entry to the secure yard, somehow having persuaded the ruffians in their Nissen hut that I meant them no harm, (though I was quite tall for a nine-year old, and could have bruised their shins if it turned nasty). As I recall, the breakers had used ST 922 as a canteen. Its L.H. dumb-iron brass plate identified it as the very bus which Prince Marshall was to restore years later and put in to limited service in London. I kept a light bulb from its upper saloon for many years as a memento of that rare bus, the bulb, alas, now lost due to postwar parental determination to periodically cleanse bedrooms. There was a pre-war Leyland ‘decker there, too, ex-Chesterfield Corporation, from which I took a fine iron enamelled plate mounted forward of the driver, which admonished him to ‘Pull into the Curb at Stops’. I was even then taken by the cacography. In his obedience, our luckless chauffeur might have ‘Curbed his enthusiasm at stops’, or even ‘Stopped up on to the Kerb’! I wonder if his traffic manager was reduced to the ranks for a fine Solecism or merely scolded for Malapropism? But I digress. The info relating to the pilfering has been concealed until today, lest it had led to a period of infant incarceration, still then common, but I surmise that the Statute of Limitations now applies – and for that matter, all the other characters of the piece must now rejoice at The Great Terminus, their days of pointless litigation at an end.
Victor Brumby
28/05/12 – 08:11
In my post of 13/11/2011, I mentioned that I thought a batch of the later Tilling (LT STL type) also went to BH&D. I’ve since found that Thos. Tilling in Brighton had quite a few early vehicles, identical to those in the above photo. In the later 1930’s, a few of the STL type were also delivered, originally with the same three-window front upstairs configuration. See HERE: Post-war, BH&D modernised them, which included changing the three-window arrangement to the conventional two-window type.
Chris Hebbron
04/07/12 – 07:12
In my original comment, I mentioned that 30 of this type, with Dodson bodies, served in Brighton. Here is a photo of one. It is unusual in showing the upstairs air vent, normally unseen in photos.
Chris Hebbron
01/01/14 – 10:09
Several of these Brighton STs were later rebodied and eventually converted to open toppers. At least half a dozen later migrated to Westcliff (for the Southend seafront services) and Eastern National (for the Clacton services). I understand one eventually finished up as a tree lopper for Eastern National.
Brian Pask
17/09/14 – 15:24
Hi Chris.. Compliments on your photograph of 6201 and also your knowledge.
Sid
18/09/14 – 07:47
Thx, Sid, glad you enjoyed the posting.
Chris Hebbron
01/02/15 – 06:49
From September of 1951 to July of 1955 I commuted to school from Mill Hill to Kilburn. This was in the days of the trolley buses at least as far as Cricklewood Broadway. I cannot give the date but on the route 16 a green ST class bus suddenly appeared. It stayed around for a few weeks and then vanished again. Similarly on the route 79a a green STL appeared again for a short period. I don’t think either of the two buses made it to preservation but if anyone out there can confirm my sightings I would be very interested. The route 16 at the time was the preserve of the SRT Class and the 79a was all RTs. All something of a mystery
Ron Sargeant
01/02/15 – 11:00
There were plenty of Country Area green STL’s, both with front and rear entrances, and, by the period you mention, Ron, post-war RT’s were rendering plenty of the older vehicles spare. The last only went in 1955. The green ST is a mystery, since very few were ever painted green and spent their lives at Watford Garage. They were all disposed of by no later that 1950. However, LT was always short of lowbridge buses then and kept its lowbridge 1930 ST’s going until 1953, both at Watford and Godstone Garages, Some found their way to Morden at times, to keep the 127 red route going. It’s possible that it was one of them found its way around your way to fill a gap or be a learner in its final months. I believe that they were unique with LT in having a sunken gangway each side upstairs. Each one was also visually unique, having been ‘played about with’ in different ways at various overhauls!
Chris Hebbron
01/02/15 – 11:02
I have very happy memories indeed of a roundtrip on GJ 2098 when it was operating a vintage service starting in Trafalgar Square. I seem to recall that it was pretty spritely and comfortable – the seat cushions gave the impression of being a foot thick and were luxurious, and they seemed to accentuate delightfully the “up and down” movement of the suspension. the driver also handled the old bus very competently indeed – a very happy hour or so to recall.
Chris Youhill
02/02/15 – 06:43
Was the upholstery a sort of grey with black swirls on. I seem to recall that that was the LGOC colour scheme (if you can call grey a colour!). Or maybe it was the standard LT stripe patterning.
Chris Hebbron
02/02/15 – 06:47
The SRT class was an unequivocal disaster, comprising pre-war STLs expensively modified to accept heavier RT type bodywork for which RT chassis were still awaited. 300 were planned, but the nonsense finished after 160 had been constructed. With the 7.7 engine and vacuum brakes the SRT wouldn’t go and, more critically, it wouldn’t stop. The first of the class entered service in April 1949, and by mid 1954, the utter folly of the programme having finally been accepted, they were gone, apart from a handful retained as Chiswick toys. Perhaps the fleeting appearance of ST and STL vehicles was dictated by SRT mechanical failures.
Roger Cox
02/02/15 – 11:37
Chris H – Yes, I’m sure that you’re right about the seating upholstery, and that’s exactly the colour scheme I remember.
Roger – As a “distant” ardent admirer of the seemingly excellent “SRT” conversions I’m surprised to hear that they were as disastrous as seems widely claimed, although I have read of this elsewhere too. I thought that the plan was an ingenious one and sensible too but of course I had no experience of driving them and only a limited number of rides. I must say though that I’m amazed that their speed and more importantly presumably acceleration were so poor, but only to be expected by comparison with the magnificent 9.6 litre RTs. Braking, well the vast difference between vacuum brakes and air is no secret, and different driving techniques and “expectations” are essential. I would imagine though that some kind of semi rural and light operation would have found them quite satisfactory. From an enthusiast point of view though their acoustics were a delight and the different “era” instantly apparent – and the fascinating combination of older machinery with the beautiful RT bodies made the SRTs for me a very memorable version.
Chris Youhill
03/02/15 – 05:46
Chris, as you indicate, the theory behind the SRT class appeared, on the surface, to make sense, as RT type bodywork deliveries were outstripping RT/RTL chassis supplies. Although the life extended elderly pre war fleets of ST and LT machines were largely gone by 1948, LT wanted to clear out the utilities and remaining STLs as quickly as possible to project the high quality, post war LTE image to the capital’s travelling public. The SRT seemed to meet the bill. It looked the part, and the ordinary traveller surely wouldn’t suspect that the mechanical bits under the new, modern bodywork belonged to an earlier engineering era and were upwards of ten years old. Sadly, converting STL chassis to take the half ton heavier RT body proved to be far more complicated, and hence much more costly, than anticipated. The chassis had to be remodelled quite considerably, and major components, such as the fuel tank, had to be re-sited. The result was a bus that looked very good, but performed very poorly, particularly in the braking department. The AEC 7.7 was a perfectly sound engine, but it didn’t have the decisive low speed torque of the comparable 7 litre Gardner 5LW which was still the favoured power plant for many new Bristols in the Tilling companies’ fleets. I should think that the less than lively performance could have been tolerated; the real difficulty lay with the brakes, which proved barely adequate on downhill gradients when an SRT was well loaded. There must have been rather more to the braking problem than simply the vacuum system. We have both driven heavy, vacuum braked double deckers around the Yorkshire gradients without too many frights. The Halifax Daimler CVL6/Roe ‘deckers were pretty heavy beasts, 8 tons unladen, but they stopped equally as efficiently as the air braked PD3s – as you know, the hills round Halifax make most of urban London look like a billiard table. I can only assume, since I can’t find any figures to support this, that the lining areas of the old STL brakes were rather smaller than those of post war double deckers generally. In the event, the SRTs were taken off routes that included any suggestion of a slope and relegated to flat territory. The word got around, and the Country department apparently refused to have any involvement with the things. In the meantime, RT and RTL chassis production came on stream, and the SRT class quickly surrendered its RT bodywork to new chassis and the STL underparts to the scrapyard. Your comment about bus acoustics resonates, I’m sure, with many members of OBP. As a child up to the age of four I delighted in the contrasting sounds emitted by LT, STL and RT types in Selsdon and Croydon, and, from that age onwards, having by then moved to rural Kent, I became captivated by the marvellous melody emitted by the Maidstone and District Leyland TS8 Tigers as they climbed Chequers Hill out of Doddington. By contrast, the petrol Tigers running along the valley just purred along. In Faversham, one could find East Kent Dennis Lancets (pre war, four cylinder jobs I later discovered) with smooth running, drumming sound engines. From 1949, by now an eight year old resident in Alverstoke near Gosport, I couldn’t initially understand why the Provincial AEC Regents sounded so dramatically different from their London cousins, and became a fan instead of the stuttering new Guy Arabs on the Haslar route. Only later did I discover that these fine buses had peculiar five cylinder engines. I am rambling on a bit now. I’d better stop.
Roger Cox
04/02/15 – 05:41
There was another part of the jigsaw to add to Roger’s tale and which makes the STL/SRT saga slightly more logical. LT’s 1935-40 New Works Plan exceeded the legal limit that AEC/Chiswick could legally order/produce and so outside suppliers were used . A good example was the 100 all-Leyland STD class; pseudo-STL’s. Another case was 175 STL chassis, but with Park Royal metal-framed bodies, which were already failing in 1942, when the worst bodies were scrapped and replaced by new lowbridge STL bodies under special dispensation. The rest were all but held together with strapping, post-war, and the idea was that the 15STL16 1939 STL’s would have their bodies transferred to replace the PRV bodies and be re-bodied with the RT ones. The 1939 STL’s should have been RT’s, but production was not ready in time. Nevertheless, many RT features were incorporated into these chassis, including automatic chassis lubrication, but, crucially, not the 9.6 litre engine, not quite ready for service. Thus, of the 132 of STL’s finest, very few survived in their original form and they, if memory serves, were Country Area vehicles, no doubt held onto for dear life!
Chris Hebbron
04/02/15 – 09:59
Please Roger, don’t even think of pleading “rambling on” – that post was full of absorbing and informed comment and opinion and is fascinating to read. So, in summary and the famous hindsight, it seems that the SRT scheme was a brave and expectedly fraught. venture which ought to have succeeded but was beset with undeserved problems and expense. You are quite right about the mountains of West Yorkshire and the greater area and I suppose we drivers thought little of nothing of such terrain as most of the elderly and basic vehicles of the time did their commendable best. The only real braking worries with the old vacuum system that I recall were occasionally with certain Leyland PD2s (but not PD1s) of both 7’6″ and 8’00″ girth – and even, with later employers, air braked PD3s, but that’s obviously another discussion altogether. I hope my memory and imagination aren’t running riot, but I’m sure I recall that when the 34 RTs arrived at Samuel Ledgard and were being prepared for service there was an issue with the brake drums/shoes. Was it the case that the RTs, as opposed to Mark 3 Regents in general, had more robust brakes – hence the London drivers’ meaningful objection to the SRTs. I believe that Ledgard fitters mentioned to me that the drums (front at least) were of a slightly larger diameter than standard and that “shims” (possibly hardwood ??) had to be inserted between the new linings and the shoes to give satisfactory results. This was of course fifty two years ago and if I’m way off the mark I’ll gladly blush and hide for as long as necessary.
Chris Youhill
18/03/18 – 06:56
During the mid to late 1940s the 77A route, which I took from Wimbledon to Wimbledon Park (to school) or to Wimbledon Chase (to visit my grandmother) had several “odd” buses. As kids, we were thrilled when the occasional coach came along as this seemed to us to be travelling in luxury. However, the most exciting was when our bus had a staircase that was outside the bus. As young boys we, of course, always rode upstairs. Which reminds me – the conductors often referred to the upstairs as “outside”. I only remember being on an outside stair bus on two or three occasions, probably in 1948, 49 or possibly 1950.
David
19/03/18 – 06:26
Referring to David’s mention of “outside”, conductors in Ashton under Lyne and Manchester guards up until the late 1960s used to have phrases such as “on top” and “inside” when designating the upper and lower decks.
Phil Blinkhorn
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/04/19 – 07:29
As a schoolboy (1944-1950), I was fortunate enough to travel at 08:13 a.m. every week-day morning from Chandler’s Ford (between Southampton and Winchester in Hampshire) to Winchester on one of these marvellous ‘open staircase’ old ladies … it was one of, I think, 5, but possibly more, on ‘loan’ to Hants & Dorset … the actual vehicle I suspect was ST845 (GJ 2021), known to have been with Hants & Dorset from 1945 to 1947 … these buses were used by the Southampton Depot of Hants & Dorset, at least, as ‘relief’ buses on high density routes, as well as ‘works’ buses transporting workers to and from factories, such as Vickers Armstrong at Hursley
Doug Clews
23/04/19 – 07:28
These Tilling ST’s had rather weak bodies and were on the cusp of being withdrawn when the war broke out. Many of them were lent out all over the place during the war and many didn’t return to London Transport until 1947, usually to be scrapped straight away, such was their decrepitude by that stage. The Greater Portsmouth/Southampton area was one of several bus hotspots where buses were drafted in to cater for the increase in passengers, to supplement the shortage. In latter years, they were renowned for their very obvious waistline body sag, not evident in the two above photos, one rebuilt and the other still fairly new.!
London Transport 1936 AEC Regent I London Transport (Chiswick) H56R
A London furniture maker adopted an ex-London Regent for a mobile showroom. Going about its business on August 24th. 1957, DGX 212 – STL 1684 was brought to a halt by the overhanging awning of the Odeon cinema in Gold Street, Kettering, which broke its nearside rear window and the timber frame thereof. The black on yellow livery was that of W. Lusty and Son of Bromley-by-Bow, who doubtless had some choice invective awaiting the return of their luckless driver to their dockside domain. Personally, I’d have left the bus there and emigrated. My conveyance of the period, leaning casually alongside, was my hub-braked Triumph pride and joy. It would be two more years before my omnibological pursuit became mobilised by the acquisition of Austin Seven NV 834. Having said that, I think that a fleeing STL would have the drop on a 1931 Seven, even round bends.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby
18/11/11 – 17:18
Nice Photo, Victor, of my favourite style (roofbox) of STL. Considering the vehicle was bought by Lusty’s in October 1954, and went into service as their showroom in 1955, it already looks sad. I notice from website Ian’s Bus Stop that it survived until 1961, when forcibly scrapped after its argument with the Odeon awning! I agree with your Austin Seven comparison. I had a friend whose father owned an Austin Swallow, the sporty version with an aluminium body. Sporting it was not! An STL would have beaten it any day!
Chris Hebbron
19/11/11 – 14:52
The bodies on the batch of STLs that followed the Chiswick built version, of which STL 1684 above was an example, were produced by Park Royal in 1937. They were constructed on metal frames which quickly reacted with the internal finishing adhesives to give serious corrosion problems after less than five years service. One of these, STL 2093, which was fitted with a replacement body from STL 2570 in 1949, was bought in 1958 by Denis Cowing, a chemistry master at my secondary school in Selhurst, Croydon, and he rallied it for a few years before the deterioration became too much for him. It now resides at the Cobham bus museum, where it is undergoing complete restoration.
Roger Cox
19/04/13 – 07:15
This bus got about as this image was taken in Rochdale in 1958.
London Transport 1935 AEC Regent 1 London Transport (Chiswick) H56R
Below is the note I wrote on the back of the above photograph.
BXD 474, this yellow and blue STL (806) was seen in Kettering on March 10th. 1958. Driver Robert Carter advised that his company, Zenith Furniture, had this mobile showroom-converted AEC and two more ex-London STLs converted to pantechnicons.
I still have the 1954-7 tax discs for this bus….. I also saw a few pantechnicons, running for Albro Furniture, during this period, all ex-STLs.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby
14/12/11 – 18:05
Surplus STL’s certainly got around in their twilight years. Yellow and blue sounds more like ‘happy playbus’ colours for children! Like the cab door.
Chris Hebbron
16/12/11 – 13:03
What exactly went on around that first bay? Looks like a bit of “scrapheap” coachbuilding… was there another access to the cab from the saloon? You may get in that way, but you’ll never get out!
Joe
16/12/11 – 13:19
Strangely enough, I think (minus the door) that WAS the size of the cab entrance. As for the scrapheap coachbuilding, that may also be perilously close to the truth. These bodies, or at least some of them, were prone to terminal collapse – body “sag” – in common with many of those built by NCB. The first bay may have been due to repair of such “sagging” bulkhead damage.
David Oldfield
17/12/11 – 07:30
Mention of the improvised cab door brings me to a question. The Metropolitan Police over the years imposed a lot of restrictions on LT and it’s predecessors. As examples I quote their refusal to accept, pneumatic tyres, enclosed staircases, cab windscreens and cab doors then in the RT era 8 feet wide buses in general service. I am not aware of any other British Police Force in any other provincial town or city interfering so much in bus design. Does anyone know why the Met had such extensive powers when this sort of interference didn’t seem to apply to other forces?
Philip Halstead
Good question Philip
17/12/11 – 07:34
Although what I’m saying may be well-known to some, it will not be to all. The Metropolitan Police had a very conservative approach to vehicle design and one aspect of that was not allowing cab doors to be fitted. Hence when in use as a showroom it would need to be a little more secure and I suspect that was why it the door looks so out of place and is obviously home-made.
David Beilby
17/12/11 – 07:38
I’m fascinated with the date of this picture. Monday, March 10th, 1958 was the day that my mother and I flew from London Airport to Montreal, as we were emigrating to Canada. We stayed with some distant relatives in Tooting before flying out, and I spent a large part of that last day watching LT trolleybuses whizz back and forth on the 630, whilst Victor Brumby was apparently chasing this old STL around Kettering with his camera. Trust me, there was a lot more snow on the ground in Montreal than there was in Kettering that day!
Dave Careless
19/12/11 – 06:24
Other aspects of the “progressive thinking” of the Metropolitan Police were the initial refusal to accept four wheel brakes and passenger entrance doors.
Roger Cox
19/12/11 – 11:03
London Transport, when lending its ‘Godstone’ STL’s to Merton Garage to assist the red 127 lowbridge route buses, had to ensure that its sliding doors were left open all the time, even draughtier than the standard front-entrance ‘green’ STL’s which did, to some extent, cater for not having any doors at all. Philip does raise a good question and I must admit I’ve never heard of such a ‘controlling’ police force as the ‘Met’ anywhere else in the UK. After the initial batch, not more fully front-entrance ‘red’ Q’s were built, as it was considered dangerous as passengers boarding/alighting might fall under the front wheels. I always smiled at early rear-entrance single-deckers, which had offside longitudinal seats right to the back and could have projected unwary passengers out of the rear platform when cornering hard! No mention of this was made, but they were mainly converted to front entrance later.
Chris Hebbron
31/12/13 – 07:09
It’s interesting to see that this STL has a Brighton registration BXD
Bix Curtis
31/12/13 – 12:02
Sorry, Bix, but “BXD” is not a Brighton registration, at least not in the era when this bus was first registered. BXD was definitely a London registration of c.1934/35. In that era, Brighton were using CD and UF as their main letters, with the appropriate sequential prefix. ACD and AUF appeared in 1934, and the progress letters were issued at a quite similar pace to London’s before the war – although of course London had many letter sets allocated to them, compared to Brighton’s two! (What I mean is that London buses were receiving say, FXT registrations in 1938/39, and Brighton had FUF. In wartime, many utilities in London had “G” prefix to the various letters used, and Southdown’s Guy utilities had GCD and GUF plates).
Michael Hampton
01/01/14 – 09:19
Going back to the comments of 2011 on the Met Police, the City of Manchester Police Force was equally as interfering and restrictive, though with far less influence on design than on operation. The operation of buses along Market St Manchester was always a problem and, in their own right prior to the institution of Traffic Commissioners and then, once that august group had been set up in the North West, by using considerable influence on them, the constabulary vastly influenced the pattern of service and the vehicle types used for over half a century. Henry Mattinson’s excellent long distance express bus scheme being at first truncated then almost totally demolished – with a great deal of aiding and abetting from taxi operators and the railway companies, was the first major interference, though there had been minor ones for over a decade before. The inconvenient siting of the long distance service terminal at Lower Mosley St and the restriction of North Western’s medium distance services to this outpost far from shops and offices was down to the police. Other inconvenient termini were located at Stevenson’s Square and the rather enigmatic Royal Exchange which, apart from the airport coach stop, was not at the Royal Exchange at all. Until the appearance of the Atlantean, the only 30 foot long double deckers approaching the city centre were Mayne’s AECs which were kept away from the centre getting no nearer than Newton St., and the Crossley Dominion trolleybuses which reached Piccadilly but only on rush hour and Saturday service. Bus stop siting in the city centre, again under police influence, precluded use of forward entrance vehicles until Salford’s 27 ft PD2s appeared on the 95/96 and later the 57/77 in the early 1960s. The Atlanteans were restricted to services away from Market St for years and whilst the major reason for not ordering more and keeping the Fleetlines that followed to Wythenshawe routes was down mainly to conservatism at 55 Piccadilly and the need for crowd movers for Wythenshawe, there is strong evidence that the police made it plain for some years that 30ft rear engined vehicles were not welcome on Market St thus restricting the best use of the vehicles. Like the Met the constabulary eventually had to yield to the pressures and realities of the industry and the time.
Phil Blinkhorn
01/01/14 – 10:05
Mention was made earlier of some STLs being rebodied as pantechnicons. Several of these had their STL bodies removed by Southend Corporation Transport at their depot. A photo exists of one with the body in process of removal. The old bodies went to a Corporation dump at Shoebury, where withdrawn trolleybuses were also sent. Above is a shot of a couple of the discarded bodies.
Brian Pask
01/01/14 – 10:12
Is there any evidence, Phil, that the police in Manchester influenced the design of buses, as I earlier indicated that the Met certainly did?
Chris Hebbron
01/01/14 – 11:12
Hi Chris, Happy New Year. There is no evidence that the design of buses in terms of use or not of doors, tyres etc. for use in Manchester was directly influenced, or should we say interfered with, by the City of Manchester Police in the same way as the Met. On the other hand, as I have shown, the types of vehicles used in parts of the city centre and restrictions on operations had a very direct influence on the size and types of vehicles purchased not just by MCTD but on a number of operators in the areas surrounding the city and certainly the location of termini had a profound influence on the daily lives of shoppers and workers.
Phil Blinkhorn
01/01/14 – 12:37
I agree that initially as a student anxious to return home to Sheffield, and latterly as a Sale resident wanting to go almost anywhere, LMS was very inconvenient – and Chorton Street not a great deal better. Looking back with a historical perspective it makes some sense – but none as a passenger. [There were similarly strange termini in Sheffield with the small Bridge Street Bus Station and the Castlegate stands – which may have made operational sense but were not in the least bit helpful to passengers needing to cross the city centre to get there.]
David Oldfield
03/01/14 – 08:13
I can’t help thinking that one of the effects of the remoteness of bus termini is to reduce awareness of what services are available. MCTD did very well in including all North Western’s Manchester services in its timetable, but how many people bought timetables? My childhood experience was that most of my parents’ awareness of bus services outside our immediate locality came under the heading of “word gets about”. If people see buses showing certain destinations then they may enquire about them, but if they don’t, it may never occur to them that such a service exists. Chorlton Street was built as an overflow to Piccadilly, and for many years MCTD restricted it to the least-used services in order to inconvenience the minimum number of passengers. But of course that also reinforced its obscurity, meaning that most Mancunian bus users had never even heard of it. Then there was the problem of Salford. Most services heading west from Manchester didn’t go from Manchester at all, but from Salford. How many people knew about that, I wonder?
Peter Williamson
03/01/14 – 12:13
Peter, the Salford situation is interesting. Under Henry Mattinson’s Express Service scheme, Salford buses ran through the Manchester city centre to Stalybridge, Hyde, Guide Bridge and Stockport. Once the scheme was decimated, and with Deansgate being added to Market St as another thoroughfare of “concern” to the constabulary, most of those routes Salford served retreated to that city’s side of the Irwell to join the remainder of the services showing Manchester on their blinds. Due to an earlier tramway dispute Salford buses did not cross Deansgate on anything other than those on the scheme. Victoria became the major terminus (though the bus station was nearer Exchange station) and was shown on blinds for services wholly within Salford, Manchester being shown on services from elsewhere. King St West was also a terminus, handy for those shopping at Kendal Milnes but not much good for most passengers need ing to get into the city centre and the patrons of the Docks service which terminated there would hardly have been KM’s customers until well into the second half of the 20th century. (For non Mancunians, Kendal Milnes was the Manchester equivalent of Harrods and for many years had the same owners). The exceptions by the outbreak of World War 2 were the 15 from Worsley which ran through to Guide Bridge and the 35 from Bury, both of which were truncations of express services, the 35 logically should have run through to Piccadilly but was cut off at Cannon St. After the war there was a dispute about the termination of tram services where Salford used Manchester rails on Deansgate which exacerbated the much earlier dispute about the use of rails on Blackfriars Bridge and led to a great deal of bitterness between 55 Piccadilly and Frederick Rd. The 15 was cut back to run only from Worsley to Manchester but did reach Piccadilly and, until the new bus station was finished, terminated in view of Albert Neal’s office. Salford made sure its vehicles on the route were the most up to date and, when it needed no new vehicles for almost a decade, always turned out its smartest Daimlers to sit within Albert’s view. It was one of the first routes for Salford’s Atlanteans but by that time the terminus was within the new bus station. Some peace was restored in January 1951 when Salford’s services from Swinton and Pendlebury were joined to Manchester’s services from Reddish Thornley Park and Bulls Head to form the 57/77 services. This became possible as no trams now ran on Market St and congestion had eased. The experiment was a success and was followed in November 1955 by the joining of the East Didsbury to Piccadilly service to the Whitefield to Victoria service to form the 95/96 services. With a common terminus at either end, these routes differed in both Salford and South Manchester but shared the same route through the city centre. What is odd in all of this is that many long distance coaches both privately and group owned operating from outside the area to Blackpool, Southport and Morecambe ran along Market St., which formed part of the A6, without any intervention by the authorities and on summer Saturdays added to the chaos. for road users and pedestrians alike.
Phil Blinkhorn
06/06/16 – 06:45
Reference the police “interference” in London, what seems to be forgotten in the ensuing years is that the Police were also “the Commissioners for the Metropolis” thereby giving them direct control which the other cities did not have. this is why we were instantly harangued by constables for inventing short cuts on service! the famous one was forgetting to turn right at Marks and Spencer (?) at Marylebone Road on the “Z”! Next one! has anyone remembered “The Excursion Route” insisted on by North western Traffic Commissioners which involved a lengthy circumnavigation of Central Manchester?
Pete Bradshaw
06/06/16 – 10:53
Presumably the Excursion Route was meant to avoid coaches from particularly the East Midlands and Staffordshire en route to Blackpool clogging Market St on summer Saturdays. My recollection is that in the 1960s it was regularly ignored.
Progressive Coaches (Cambridge) 1935 AEC Regent 1 London Transport (Chiswick) H26/30R
I am coming to the end of my boyhood ex-London Transport (photographed) sightings now. I proffer this shot of ex-London Transports STL 2117 during the building of Stevenage New Town, when Mowlem Construction hired their workers’ transport from Progressive Motor Coaches of Cambridge. STL 2117 was seen in the company of STL 971 on April 8th 1958, awaiting its next muddy-booted cargo.
I also managed to get an old tax disc from STL 2117 for 1957 showing a yearly charge of 86 pounds 8 shillings.
Photographs and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby
12/01/12 – 05:43
As a kid, I always thought works buses looked drab and neglected. In retrospect, knowing how many fine vehicles were scrapped at the end of their PSV lives, I suppose this did extend their lives. How many subsequently survived into preservation, though?
David Oldfield
12/01/12 – 05:44
Not to mention those who survived as showmen’s vehicles in many guises and often ingeniously (sometimes very professionally) modified. It was more interesting for me to look at these than partake of the amusements/rides – how sad is that? At least these vehicles survived longer than worn-out, hard-worked, often-abused works buses.
Chris Hebbron
12/01/12 – 17:10
Progressive Motor Coaches was formed in 1934 by Albert Edward “Paddy” Harris who had previously worked for Lord Astor Coaches (which, despite its high sounding title, was run by a family named Brown). The Progressive livery was pale green and white. As Victor’s picture shows, this operator had two STLs, Nos. 971 with Chiswick H29/19F body (ex Country area) and 2117 with a later Chiswick H30/26R body (like the others in this batch, its original metal framed Park Royal body had proved to be a disaster). These two were bought in 1955, and were kept until at least 1958. Progressive also had a total of five so called “pre war” RTs (in fact, all except RT 1 entered LPTB service between 1940 and 1942). These were RTs 32/40/76/84/139 FXT207/215/251/259/314, all of which were bought between January and April 1956. RT 32 was sold on almost immediately, RTs 76 & 84 lasted beyond 1958, and RTs 40 and 139 were disposed of in 1959. I owe much of this information to Ian’s Bus Stop website, and to Paul Carter’s detailed books on Cambridge in the Prestige Series.
Roger Cox
12/01/12 – 17:18
Thanks for the information Roger guess what was on the same scan of the DLU 116 tax disc.
There is also BLH 828 if anyone knows more on that Regent 06613259 I will post it.
Peter
13/01/12 – 07:30
According to Ians Bus Stop, BLH 828 was STL971, mentioned above.
Bob Gell
13/01/12 – 07:31
Peter, BLH 828 was the registration of STL 971. This was one of the Country Area green STLs which had a Chiswick built body of the peculiar front entrance design which seated only 48 passengers, 29 upstairs and 19 downstairs. This design had no entrance door, it being supposed that the angled front bulkhead would prevent draughts from entering the saloon. Of course this theory was preposterous, and these buses were notoriously cold to travel in. (I can confirm this from my own childhood recollections of these things on the Chelsham operated routes across Croydon.) Progressive upseated BLH 828 to 52 by adding four seats downstairs over the wheel arches.
Roger Cox
13/01/12 – 09:14
Roger Cox beat me to it with details from Paul Carter’s excellent books so I will just add that my memories of International Progressive Coaches (as they became) are from the 1960s when their modern coaches (half a dozen brand new every year) passed my home. Sadly it all went pear shaped in the early 1970s and by 1974 the business was finished.
Nigel Turner
13/01/12 – 13:38
Nigel you say “International Progressive Coaches (as they became)” do you know when the name changed, I do have a good reason for asking.
Peter
13/01/12 – 14:24
Unfortunately Paul Carter’s book doesn’t say exactly when the name changed but it implies that it was between 1964 and 1969. However it seems that at least some of the coaches kept the old fleet name after this time. Continental trips had started soon after WWII.
Nigel Turner
13/01/12 – 15:34
Thanks for that Nigel that is near enough for me, you will see my reason for the question Friday 03/02.
Peter
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/11/16 – 06:34
I have every registration mark of the fleet from day one.
