Browns Blue Bus Service 1950 AEC Regent III RT RT3/3 Saunders H56R originally now Weymann
I was interested to read about Victor’s visit to Leicester in 1958 to see the ex-LT Daimlers in service with Browns Blue. A good friend of mine, Mick Gamble, has just completed writing a comprehensive history of the Browns Blue Company. This is now at print and is due to be released in mid-October. Mick has worked on the project for over two years and has travelled many a mile in interviewing members of the Brown family along with form Browns Blue drivers, conductors and engineering staff. The book will be hard back containing 232 pages, over 200 photos and a complete fleet list. Mick has produced the book to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the take-over of the company by Midland Red in March 1963. Chris Barker noted that Browns Blue also operated nine ex-London Transport RTs and whilst all nine found new owners following withdrawal by Browns Blue, sadly none made it into preservation. So Mick has done the next best thing and has purchased KLB 596 transforming it into a replica of HLW 160 which was the only non-roof box RT that Browns Blue operated. Mick has had authentic adverts produced and a replica 19 metre long destination blind!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Mike Greenwood
21/10/12 – 10:41
Nice!!!
Pete Davies
22/10/12 – 17:04
This vehicle looks magnificent in Brown’s Blue livery, and would look even more so if parked next to the RTW preserved in Stevenson of Spath’s yellow and black colour scheme. Bring them both up to Manchester sometime please, my range is more limited these days! Well done to all involved in this project, independents are severely under-represented in the ranks of preserved vehicles.
Neville Mercer
27/01/13 – 07:59
We had this bus for our wedding transport in July 2006. It was in traditional London Transport red. Our wedding was in Winchester and the bus was hired for the day with a clippie from somewhere in Hampshire.
London Transport 1954 AEC Regent III RT – RT8/2 Weymann (Originally) Park Royal (Now) H56R
Here we have two views of the same vehicle in the two liveries of London Transport. The view of it in red is at Heathrow Bus Station on 21 January 1976, where she is on the 140 to Mill Hill East Station. The view in green shows her – as preserved – on Itchen Bridge in Southampton. It’s 6th May 1979, and she is addressed to Hemel Hempstead Bus Station on the 347 while taking part in the Southampton City Transport Centenary rally. According to BBF 12 London Transport book it was delivered new in the green livery.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
04/11/12 – 15:27
Evidence seems to say 1954, which I am inclined to take as date of entry into service. Are you sure it still has a Weymann body? It carried one when it was new, unquestionably, but it would have had at least one body swap while with LT and recent references quote Park Royal bodywork. Unfortunately the ultimate authority on this subject (Ian’s Bus Stop, on the net) currently has RT histories up to RT4199 only.
David Call
04/11/12 – 17:09
David, The 2012 PSV Circle listing of preserved buses gives her as having Park Royal body, and new date of 7/54. Thank you for clarifying.
Pete Davies
04/11/12 – 17:09
I have corrected the information above, I supplied the information under the photo I just put the original body not having any information to dispute it, I had to start somewhere.
Peter
05/11/12 – 13:07
Strangely enough, the sound of the AEC 9.6 litre with pre-selector gearbox – one of the most common, homely and comforting sounds of the 1950s bus scene, is one that we don’t have on the Old Bus Sounds page. There are one or two on YouTube, but I have yet to find a really good one. They all seem a bit “rasping” and you don’t get the full flavour of the contralto in first and second, and then the rich deep tenor in third. Any offers?
Stephen Ford
05/11/12 – 15:20
I wonder just how much money was wasted by LPTB/LTE continually painting vehicles red, then green, merely because it was wanted in the other half of the business. I never got the impression that there was anyone controlling spare green/red ones as a sensible alternative. I wonder if the vehicle in the top photo was ‘snapped’ because of the sloppy blind display – a side blind in the intermediate box – why? And, Stephen, I recall the different sound of the ‘pre-war’ RT’s engines, until they changed the cylinder heads and they all sounded the same then.
Chris Hebbron
05/11/12 – 15:34
Thank you Pete for posting the photos of this RT. I have happy memories of learning to handle this type on the LT skid pan at Chiswick (even though I was already holding a PSV licence from the Eastern Traffic Authority) and I had to retake my test to satisfy LT. Once posted to New Cross garage, I was put on route 192 Lewisham Odeon to Plumstead, and had to contend with Shooters Hill, often boiling at the top when heavily laden, then a very sharp left turn into Eglinton Rd/Hill, which necessitated difficult low speed gear selection.
Norman Long
05/11/12 – 16:01
In answer to the question from Chris, I ‘snapped’ this one because I was at Heathrow to get some photographs of the entry into service of Concorde. While there, I took photos of some of the activity around the bus station, the others being FAR too modern to appear on this site! Certainly, the arrangement of the blinds could be better, but that isn’t why I took the photo.
Pete Davies
05/11/12 – 16:02
Chris, it’s interesting that you should say that. I didn’t know the pre-war RTs. Being from Nottingham I was rarely in London, but NCT had lots of pre and post war Regents in the early 50s, and most of the pre-war survivors were pre-selector. It has long been my recollection that the sound of these pre-war buses was subtly “the-same-but-different” from the “new” (!) 1948 (Metro-Cammell)/49(Roberts)/53 (Park Royal) Regent IIIs. When we moved to Barton territory in 1954, they had a considerable number of pre-war ex-Leeds Regents, which also had the “old” sound.
Stephen Ford
05/11/12 – 17:16
The pre-war RT engines, Stephen, were greatly influenced by Leyland engines in the STD and TF classes. Although Ricardo had a hand in designing the cylinder heads, the direct-injection engines had pot-cavity piston tops (like flowerpots,)a Leyland design, produced under licence, although this fact was kept under wraps! So the AEC engines were, to some extent, hybrids.
If you’ve experienced ‘boiling up’, Norman, this photo will bring back memories, at the top of Annerley Hill, near Crystal Palace, blinds turned for the return journey. This route passed the end of my road, although the vehicle shown is on a short working, not going through to Raynes Park.
Chris Hebbron
06/11/12 – 13:22
Ah, the 157 route, Chris. This, together with the 154, was the replacement for the 654 trolleybus route which ran between Crystal Palace and Sutton Green, the last day of trolleybus operation being 3 March 1959. I went to school at Selhurst, and our playing fields were on the other side of Croydon at Waddon. We had to use the 654, and later the 154/7 to get there. Anerley Hill was at the other end of these routes, beyond Norwood Junction. Whereas the trolleys ascended Anerley Hill in a steady manner, the replacement RTs always struggled up this gradient. LT derated the engine of the RT to 115 bhp, about the same as a K version Gardner 6LW, but the AEC lacked the low speed torque characteristics of the Gardner. However, the RTL, with its similarly derated engine was decidedly worse on hills than the RT. Your point about the profligacy of the old LTE is very true. It was a huge, complacent, inward looking, arrogant organisation that steadfastly refused to acknowledge that it didn’t already know everything about bus operation and ancillary activities. Other participants in the bus industry – BET, BTC, municipals et al – were loftily referred to as “foreign operators”. Insulated from comparisons with practices elsewhere in the industry, LTE had no yardstick by which it could assess its woeful standard of efficiency. Certainly, trade union power was very strong, but much more could have been done to improve matters.
Roger Cox
06/11/12 – 14:04
Thanks Chris—a great picture…I can almost recall the smell of the steam. Those were the days..the best job I ever had!
Norman Long
07/11/12 – 06:52
Wimbledon Hill was the challenge for the ‘pre-war RT’s, on route 93, from Putney Bridge to Epsom (Dorking on Sundays). When I lived in Morden, Roger, it always seemed strange to me that no bus route went to Crystal Palace. The 157 went to Wallington (some cut short at Carshalton) and it was with some pleasure that I noticed that eventually one route, a least, ventured into South-East London. My abiding memory of pre-war RT’s, in their after-life, was seeing a couple of them with Smith’s of Reading, around 1960, looking impeccable, despite their 20-odd years in service by that time.
Chris Hebbron
07/11/12 – 16:50
Another testing route for the RT was the 234 between Hackbridge and Selsdon. The Hackbridge section as far as Purley was straightforward enough, but from Purley the route climbed up the side of the Caterham Valley, then dropped down again through Riddlesdown before ascending again to Sanderstead Church on its way to Selsdon. Later, from March 1971 to January 1973, this route (together with XA Atlanteans) became the province of the solitary FRM, and, as my mother then lived at Riddlesdown, I frequently rode on this splendid machine when visiting. The FRM proved a highly competent performer, taking the gradients in truly fine style. What might have been……!
Roger Cox
07/11/12 – 17:32
One of the favoured few, eh, Roger? Another tragedy, as you say. along with the TSR2 and the recent Nimrod debacle!
Chris Hebbron
13/11/12 – 06:55
When the red RTs were repainted green and transferred to country area garages (and vice versa), does anyone know if the rear axles were changed at the same time? As far as I am aware, central area RTs had rear axles with a lower diff ratio than the ones operated on country routes. This gave the red RTs a lower top speed, but improved acceleration between stops, whereas the green RTs benefitted from a higher top speed, as befitting their routes, but progress through the gears would have been more stately. If such vehicles were simply repainted, it must have caused some confusion and frustration among drivers as they tried to keep to schedule with the ‘wrong’ type of bus!
Brendan Smith
13/11/12 – 12:59
I am surmising, Brendan, but I assume that the repainting exercise formed part of the Aldenham overhaul system. As you know, buses going in had their bodies and chassis separated and sent down dedicated overhaul tracks. Such was the scale of the disassembly process, the vehicle emerging at the far end with the registration OLD 564 would almost certainly have had a different chassis and body to the one that went in. Thus, the “new” OLD 564 might well have had a chassis that entered Aldenham as a high geared Country Dept vehicle. Alternatively, the appropriate higher geared rear axle would have been fitted during the overhaul process, and the emerging chassis would have acquired a green painted body. I worked for the LTE Country Bus Dept in a clerical capacity at Reigate in the early 1960s when the psv speed limit was raised to 40 mph, and all buses had the back axles converted appropriately. I cannot recall any “maverick” low geared machines being used on Country Area services after the conversion program was completed, and, in an organisation so besotted with standardisation as the old LTE, I doubt that such an eventuality would have arisen. If one did slip through the net, it would have been sorted out pretty quickly. Had it not been so dealt with, a T&GWU Union Complaint would certainly have been despatched hot foot to the relevant management in-tray.
Roger Cox
13/11/12 – 14:33
From what you’re saying, Roger, I’m assuming that the bodies never actually changed colour, they just ended up on a different chassis. I don’t know about the RT’s, but as well as different gearing, the Routemasters ‘or the RMC versions anyway’ also had a much higher interior spec with better upholstery and coach style overhead luggage racks
Ronnie Hoye
14/11/12 – 07:14
That might well be true, Ronnie. It would surely be very much easier and less costly to repaint a body in the same colour as before, but, with London Transport’s penchant for profligacy, one cannot be certain that logic prevailed. The only way to ascertain the facts would be by obtaining a history of the relevant body numbers. Unfortunately, Ian’s Bus Stop website, so often a valuable source of detail, does not have the histories of the later examples of the RT class, but one appreciates the magnitude of such a task.
Roger Cox
14/11/12 – 07:14
Thanks for the info Roger. The RTs are certainly a more fascinating breed than their standardised image would have us believe. I admit to having a real soft spot for them, as being brought up as a child in Airedale, they were in abundance on shopping trips to Bradford with Mum and Dad. Samuel Ledgard had a sizeable fleet of RTs (and some RTLs) in their classic blue and light grey livery, and Bradford CT also had twenty-five, the attractive livery of blue with cream window surrounds suiting them very well. The original livery applied to the RTs by BCT was fortunately short-lived, this consisting of all over blue, relieved by a cream band above the lower deck windows – in effect a blue version of LT livery. What was the transport department thinking of? Presumably the General Manager was on holiday for a fortnight when someone came up with that wheeze! As a youngster, I found the huge rear window on each deck of the RT so handsomely modern, and was captivated by the sound effects. The gently ‘knocking’ tickover of that quietly powerful 9.6 litre engine, the melodic pre-selector transmission, and the ‘chiff’ of the air brakes. Even the air-operated gearchange pedal made a noise. Wonderful!
Brendan Smith
14/11/12 – 10:30
You certainly live and learn when you read this site. As Brendan has pointed out, there’s a lot more to RTs than initially meets the eye. However, the discussion about rear axles leads me to ask which ones were fitted to Ledgard’s RTs. On the face of it, it would seem the country higher axle would have been a more suitable choice. Is this correct?
Roy Burke
14/11/12 – 14:05
I share every aspect of Brendan’s delight in having “known” the wonderful RTs, not only in this area but in their home territory as I had many relations in London and visited often. I must tell here a very sad but unfortunately true anecdote reflecting the total lack of interest and knowledge in the job by a huge proportion of drivers and conductors – mind you, understandable I suppose as most likely very few mill or factory workers spent their leisure hour drooling over a certain loom or lathe !! Now then back to Otley and Samuel Ledgard in 1963, and of course the last of the famous Sutton Depot “HGF” Daimler CWA6s (another fabulous family) had only just gone. I can remember making my way to the depot to start a late turn when, outside Woolworth’s in Kirkgate, I encountered one of our more cynical and constantly grumpy colleagues and was informed “Wait till you get to the garage – some more London garbage (polite word after editing) just arrived.” Well, its a wonder I wasn’t knocked down as I sped to the depot knowing full well what to expect, although there had been no announcements or rumours about such an acquisition. There on the forecourt, gurgling away contentedly, was RT 4611 NXP 864, still advertising all the delights of the West End. It was the first RT to enter service from Otley depot and was fairly promptly prepared in what was to become the standard treatment for the 34 RTs and 5 RTLs we were to enjoy eventually. The roof route number box was very professionally removed and the front destination display repanelled to show only our new standard (by then) rolls, and over the platform the glass was neatly masked to leave only the right area for the same version. the rear destination displays were totally removed, and professionally panelled so that no trace remained. Preparation for painting was to the usual incredibly high standard of which Arthur and Benny were very justifiably proud. Moving on now to a Saturday afternoon, late turn again, and “864” was parked in the garage, taxed all ready for the fray but probably not until Monday morning. My conductor was Eddy Busfield, who had been a University student on Summer part time employment but had “caught the enthusiast bug” and had stayed full time. We couldn’t resist after tea and approached the amenable shift garage man with “Can we PLEASE take the RT out ??” Being himself an Ex Pat Londoner he agreed at once, and so off we went like a couple of delighted infants :- 2010 Otley – Leeds 2055 Leeds – Otley 2150 Otley – Leeds 2235 Leeds – Otley Refuel of course on the “wrong” side but who cared – a bit of awkward manipulation was a small price to pay for a wonderful evening. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as the saying goes, and as more RTs arrived there were rarely if ever any more derogatory comments from those who “open their mouths before they put their brains in gear.” The RTs were rightly legendary and I also loved the RTLs with their different characteristics – wonderful tick over “wobbling” and Leyland “gargling.”
Chris Youhill
14/11/12 – 14:14
Elsewhere on this site, under an item dealing with the Ledgard RTs, Chris Youhill states that one of these machines LYR 915, is now preserved in its original Country Bus Dept livery. Let us know, Chris – were the others green on arrival at Ledgard’s?
Roger Cox
14/11/12 – 15:32
I can remember six operators in the area who had RT’s. Service coaches and Bedlington District, both based in Ashington, had them for miners services and as a result they tended not to be of the best of condition appearance wise. Moor Dale who used them for contract and school runs, they stayed in LT red, but the mudguards and cream centre band were painted blue, Armstrongs of Westerhope ‘who were taken over by T&W PTE and became Armstrong Galley’ they were a pale green colour, Lockeys of West Auckland. they were black and white, but best of all were OK of Bishop Auckland, the RT’s looked wonderful in their livery.
Ronnie Hoye
14/11/12 – 16:30
In another of his evocative posts, above Chris Y briefly mentions the ‘HGF’ Daimler CWA’s at Sutton Garage. I’ve mentioned LTE’s profligate ways before, but when time came for the ‘D’s to go, Merton’s were replace by RT’s, but Sutton’s were replaced by RTL’s. This, of course, required driver and fitter re-training and new workshop material. tooling, manuals etc. Just five months later, the RTL’s were replaced by RT’s! Unbelievable! My experience of the removal of the roof routebox on the generic RT class, was that it was usually done very badly, with pop rivets to the fore etc. SL did do a professional job, as Chris Y says.
Chris Hebbron
15/11/12 – 11:21
Roger, I’m not sure if any records were kept by enthusiasts as to what colour each RT was on arrival here, but certainly there was a mixture with plenty of both red and green. RT 4611, NXP 864, was definitely red as I saw in my delighted, nay rapturous, initial sighting mentioned above. Chris H, I’m astonished, well not really I suppose, to read your fascinating account of the Sutton RTL/RT farce. Although I was always a very great admirer of London Transport it has to be said that they were far too rigid in practices and habits in many ways.
Photograph by “unknown”if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This picture shows an immaculate newly prepared LYR 867 leaving the roof top park of Armley depot in a manner which could have seen the driver at the Labour Exchange (Job Centre to our younger friends) as a notice on the inner wall warned “ANY DRIVER LEAVING THE ROOF IN ONE SWEEP WILL BE DEALT WITH.” Unusually the rear wheels are visible and painted blue – the normal practice was for the wheel discs to be fitted. The high standard of painting and preparation can be seen, as can the almost imperceptible removal of the roof route number box.
Chris Youhill
15/11/12 – 17:01
I presume, Ronnie, that when you refer to ‘RTs’ you mean any of the RT ‘family’, i.e. RT/RTL/RTW. I’m pretty sure that OK didn’t have any RTs as such, they acquired eight RTLs (I think) when the first batch were released c1958, inherited a further two with the business of Anderson (Blue Belle) of Evenwood, and bought a single RTW in the mid-1960s. Lockey’s (one of my favourite operators) had one RT and two RTLs.
David Call
15/11/12 – 17:45
Stephenson’s of High Etherley certainly had an RTW and possibly an RTL.
John Stringer
16/11/12 – 07:28
That really is a superb photo, Chris Y and does the RT proud. SL’s livery well-suited these vehicles. I like the thought of the driver cocking a snoot at authority and to heck with the consequences! Maybe the RT’s had a better steering lock than other vehicles. Is that true?
Chris Hebbron
16/11/12 – 07:29
Stephenson’s had at least two RTLs, these were replaced by two RTWs in the mid-1960s, these then remained with Stephenson’s until its shares in a couple of stage services were sold to OK (c1970?) – the RTWs were not included in the deal, these were sold by Stephenson’s. I can’t remember what happened to the single-deck service bus – an AEC Reliance, I think.
David Call
16/11/12 – 11:14
One of Stephenson’s RTWs has been preserved in Stephenson’s livery and condition. During 2006 it spent some time at Ensigns – I think they might have been doing some work on it for the owner – and having a Class VI ticket was used on that year’s heritage services in Essex, seen here in Old Harlow on route 622.
Michael Wadman
16/11/12 – 14:42
Yes, David, RT type rather than RT. As a youngster I seldom ventured South of the Tyne, so the only time I actually saw any of OK’s buses was when they were used on the Bishop Auckland/Newcastle service, or, as often happened during the summer, they descended on mass to the coast at Whitley Bay carrying hoards of Children on working mens club outings, but that’s no excuse for poor research on my part. In my defence, I can remember that some of the Bedlington District RT’s were MXX registrations and had roof box indicators, and the Moor Dale pair had Leyland radiators and were KGU 60 and LUC 355 – presumably RTL’s, sorry but I don’t know how many or what type were used by Armstrong’s of Westerhope, but they did have at least one of the breed.
Ronnie Hoye
17/11/12 – 07:01
I think a bit of confusion has crept in here. The Stephenson Brothers which John Stringer refers to was the operator in the Bishop Auckland area who sold their services to OK in 1970. They had a couple of RTL’s and an RTW and used a blue livery. The yellow and black RTW was owned by STEVENSONS of Uttoxeter, Staffs. They ultimately sold out to Arriva and curiously, many Arriva Midlands vehicles still carry legal lettering which states; Stevensons of Uttoxeter t/a Arriva!
Chris Barker
17/11/12 – 07:02
Stevenson’s (with the yellow livery) were based at Spath, just outside Uttoxeter – a very old-established operator running services mainly in the Uttoxeter/Burton area. They eventually sold out to Arriva (or, perhaps, one of its predecessors, I’m not sure now), c1992. One notable event in its history was the takeover (in the run-up to bus deregulation) of the services of East Staffordshire District Council (previously Burton-on-Trent Corporation). Like Stephenson’s, they ran both RTLs and RTWs (more of the former, I think). There is a page on Stevenson’s on this very website.
David Call
18/11/12 – 12:16
In reply to Chris H’s question about steering lock on the RTs I’m afraid I’ve really no idea. I suppose it is indeed possible but on balance I wouldn’t have thought too likely – so probably another thing we shall never know. Likewise, I never got to the bottom of the thinking behind that sinister notice inside the Armley Depot rooftop wall. I never worked from there, other than one morning taking my PSV test from within the main premises, as I was always at Otley garage and its nearby Ilkley “sub depot.” I can only imagine that if a bus was parked in the front corner near the gateway an exit in “one sweep” would put the vehicle right up to the far pavement in the residential street outside, as in this picture. The Depot has long since disappeared under a major new road most reverently named “LEDGARD WAY” but the houses still remain, sadly in a most reprehensible state due to resident neglect, but that’s a social matter not for further comment here.
Chris Youhill
24/11/12 – 14:21
Oh, dear, sorry about that: getting my Stephenson’s and Stevenson’s mixed up. I really ought to know better than to venture into that strange land north of Watford of which I know little!!
Michael Wadman
02/12/12 – 14:10
Here is Stephenson’s of High Etherley, Co. Durham KLB 948. New to London Transport as their RTW 218 in 1/50 and withdrawn by them in 4/65, it passed to Stephenson’s via the dealer Bird’s of Stratford upon Avon. I photographed it on a tour of Co. Durham independents in late Summer, 1969. Note the mis-spelled advert !
John Stringer
03/12/12 – 14:04
It’s amazing how obvious that extra six inches on RTW’s was, compared with 7′ 6″ wide RTL’s. Internally, it gave an extra 4″ in the aisle and they put a 1″ spacer between seat end and bus side for extra shoulder room. You seem, John, to be cursed in the same way as me, the ability to spot a spelling error, instantly, at 100yds (almost literally in this case!).
Chris Hebbron
01/04/13 – 12:51
Just as a matter of interest; the reason the top pic on route 140 has an old blind at the front is because by 1976 the writing was on the wall for RTs and LT stopped making specific blinds for them. So garages started using any thing RT to hand then RM blinds if available. If you look at pics from the seventies you see them starting to creep in. Standards were starting to drop by then.
Danny Robins
01/04/13 – 16:28
The 140 blind is not necessarily an old one. It is actually one from the rear blind box/the nearside rear above the platform. These had the numeral above the via points and were able to fit in the front via blind box of RTs. As you say, such scenes would never have been countenanced during the heyday of RTs, when almost everything was correct. But towards the end, a wrongly sized blind showing the right information, was better than, No blind at all.
Petras409
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
07/01/15 – 09:40
The caption/text to this bus gives 1954 as entry into service. According Ken Blacker’s book RT – Story Of A London Bus, this vehicle did not enter service until June 1959, when it was delivered in green livery to Epping (EP) bus garage, some 5 years later.
Paddy John
08/01/15 – 15:24
A significant number of later RTs delivered in 1954 were not needed for service immediately, and were put into store. This was in spite of LT selling off many non-standard types and utilities in this period, such as the 65 post-war STDs to Yugoslavia, amongst others. Presumably increased traffic needs or other withdrawals of older stock (pre-war RTs to the training school?) allowed their preparation for licensing and service. There are probably lists somewhere of the RT’s which were stored for this five-year period.
East Midland Motor Services 1949 AEC Regent III RT Cravens H56R
You can almost smell the workshop in this view! This ex-London Transport Regent RT came to East Midland with the take-over of Wass, Mansfield in April 1958. D47 was gone in 1960 – to A1 Service, Ardrossan.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
26/05/13 – 10:31
Nice view, Les, and thank you for posting. I note that East Midland acquired this vehicle as part of the deal in buying Wass, but what did London Transport deem to be so “non standard” about Cravens and Saro bodies that they were sold out of the fleet so quickly?
Pete Davies
27/05/13 – 07:00
Splendid picture, there’s something altogether fascinating about views of buses undergoing repair or maintenance. Makes me want to go and brew a pot of extra strength ‘busman’s’ tea! What a pity KGK 750 didn’t make it into the East Midland fleet until after they’d switched over to the maroon livery, it would have looked a treat in the old biscuit, chocolate and cream scheme.
Dave Careless
27/05/13 – 07:01
The Cravens RTs were totally non standard with 5 bay construction. Not only were the body spares, particularly glass spares, non standard, the vehicles could not be processed through Aldenham works where body and chassis swaps were the rule, unless they were swapped with other Cravens bodied vehicles due to the way the bodies were mounted. As this did not fit the, by mid 1950s, maintenance regime the Cravens vehicles were sold off. In any event they had been a stop gap to cover delivery delays at Park Royal and Weymann. The SARO vehicles were much more standard but there were enough differences to make them cuckoos in what was very much a Park Royal/Weymann nest.
Phil Blinkhorn
27/05/13 – 07:02
The Cravens bodies were not to London Transport design but used the standard Cravens shell with London Transport features. Most noticeably they were of five-bay construction rather than four. I wasn’t aware that the Saunders bodies were short-lived, and Ian’s Bus Stop site www.countrybus.org/RT/RT3s.htm says they weren’t.
Peter Williamson
27/05/13 – 07:03
Five bay construction whilst all other RT family members were four bay, perhaps?
Tony Martin
27/05/13 – 07:04
Pete, the Craven-bodied RT’s were merely Craven’s standard fare modified to look something like standard RT bodies. The fronts were flatter (I preferred them), they had five-bays and the back curved, hunch-backed, above the rear platform window, itself less wide and offset to the offside. The rear number plate was also further to the right. They were not jig-built and useless for standard Aldernham overhauls. I’m not so sure that the SaRo versions had shorter lives with LTE; they were entirely standard in all respects, to my knowledge. Here’s a rear offside three-quarter view of a Craven’s RT. The five bay layout made the downstairs windows finish slightly further back than usual,although the side route number fitting was in the usual place. Therefore the gap between the two was less. To the average passenger, it is unlikely they’d notice the difference. Two survive, both with Ensign, one red and one green. www.flickr.com/photos/
Chris Hebbron
27/05/13 – 07:06
I’ve done a little more digging, Pete, about the SaRo bodies. They were strong and fully compatible with RT bodies from the usual suppliers, although they had slight weakness with the front bulkhead, corrected at first overhaul. The only reason they were withdrawn a little earlier than others was because they had front roofboxes. Nevertheless, some lasted a full 20 years,albeit as learner vehciles latterly.
Chris Hebbron
27/05/13 – 09:02
Chris, were the SARO bodies exchanged in the normal way in the Aldenham programme? As top box bodies were considered non standard from the mid 1950s I was under the impression that they weren’t after first overhaul, to avoid non standard bodies being mated with the newer chassis.
Phil Blinkhorn
27/05/13 – 09:03
Thanks for your responses, gents. I knew someone would be able to clarify!
Pete Davies
27/05/13 – 09:03
Although I’ve always been a fervent admirer of the wonderful standard RT (and RTL/RTW), both as a passenger and as a driver, I have equal enthusiasm for the fascinating Cravens version also. The five bay appearance fits in very well with the general handsome RT profile, and the various other smaller differences add to the individual appeal of “The Cravens.” As far as I’m aware the only difference from standard in the appearance of the Saro bodies was the position of the offside route stencil frame – oh and, once in a lifetime, the need to reduce the tyre pressures/height in order to “escape” from Anglesey under the portals of the Menai Straits bridge.
Chris Youhill
27/05/13 – 16:38
Since no-one has yet mentioned London Transport’s perennial disposal of perfectly good buses at a ridiculously young age (Cravens RTs, RWs, DMSs etc), perhaps I should be the one to set the cat amid the pigeons! The usual excuses given for these premature disposals (standardisation, inability to cope with the London environment, and so on) are transparently so much guff when one considers the loss of barely depreciated assets. In every case it would have been cheaper to hang on to these perfectly good vehicles and send LT engineers out into the real world to learn how to maintain them. I await the barrage of counter-arguments from LT apologists (or, as I like to think of them, fetishists…)
Neville Mercer
27/05/13 – 16:38
It would be interesting to know which depot this was, I would say either Mansfield or Worksop. Wass Brothers operated a busy service from Mansfield to Clipstone, Edwinstowe and Ollerton, they bought three of these Craven RT’s in 1957, the others were JXC 219 and KGK 739, their livery was half maroon and half dark red and it’s difficult to tell from the picture if East Midland repainted them when Wass had only painted them a year earlier, or if they simply added a cream band. The destination box was certainly altered by East Midland, Wass had retained the LT style boxes and had painted their name in the bottom aperture. It seems a shame that these fine vehicles were disposed of by East Midland after just two years when only eleven years old but by 1960 they were taking large numbers of Atlanteans.
Chris Barker
28/05/13 – 07:41
This photo was taken in the old fitting shops at Worksop depot. The three of these ended their lives on Worksop town services. This was due to them being high bridge.
Ian Bennett
28/05/13 – 07:42
Bradford City Transport had 2 Saunders RTs in the batch of 25 bought from Birds dealer in 1958 Numbered 411 and 421 they lasted until 1968 with the odd spell stored in the TIN SHED at Thornbury.
Geoff S
28/05/13 – 07:43
I concur completely with your view of London Transport extravagance, Neville, and have made similar comments on this forum in the past. I joined LT(CB&C) at Reigate in a clerical capacity from school after ‘A’ Levels in August 1960, and was astounded at the curious attitude that prevailed throughout the organisation at every level. It was like being on a different planet, totally insulated from all outside influences. It was incapable of learning from others in the bus industry since it believed that London operating conditions were unique – its own experience therefore existed on a far higher plane than that of “provincial” people. Thus it made expensive mistakes that could have been mitigated by contacts outside its own closed mentality. The engineering system was typical of its centralised attitudes and slavish devotion to standardisation. The RT family (once those nasty, interloping Cravens and Saunders machines were removed), the RFs and the RMs were all designed, like Meccano, to be taken to pieces. Defective pieces could then be removed at garages and sent to Chiswick or Aldenham, and reconditioned parts installed in replacement. No proper analytical engineering expertise was required at garage level. The front line mechanical operation was maintained by fitters, not by engineers. Whatever the fault, major or minor, a replacement part was almost always seen as the solution. Another LT vehicle class that epitomised the cavalier approach to costs was the RC and the allied EC of BEA that LT ‘looked after’. Yes, the wet liner engines of the Reliance did give trouble, but swathes of British bus operators ran them successfully for years. The LT/BEA fleets spent much of their time in store and were disposed of after very short lives. Remarkably, the insular attitude of London’s public transport “experts” remains today, as may be seen in Boris Johnson’s preposterous, extravagant, ego inflating “Routemaster”. After their inevitably limited life in London, I don’t see many takers for those things on the secondhand market unless they are extremely cheap.
Roger Cox
28/05/13 – 07:44
The destination looks like Langold, which I think was a mining village near Worksop.
Geoff Kerr
28/05/13 – 07:45
As for your comment, Neville, about LTE’s disposal policy, I’m the first one to wonder why! Firstly, this policy did not extend across the whole of LTE. Non-standard trolleybuses, and there were several of them, led almost full lives alongside their compatratriots and I recall, when living in London, several Tube and sub- surface stock “non-standard” carriages also with their “standard” compatriots. The bus division certainly disliked non-standard vehicles and I even recall a very-sloping front-ended STL which, late in life, was rebuilt, all for the sake of four seats! A whole lot of already non-standard lowbridge green ST’s were tweaked such that not one of them looked the same in the end. TF1, with non-standard body, was altered to look marginally like its compatriots, then disposed of in 1946, along with various other non-standard types, like the double-deck Q’s at the very time when it was obvious they were needed! However, with the RT family of buses, peak passenger numbers were in 1949, although the dwindling numbers were slow to start with. Typically, LTE definitely over-ordered them to the point where the last 400 went into store for about four years and many of them had ex-SRT bodies draped on them until they eventually went into service. LPTB/LTE achieved some remarkable things in its short life, especially pre-war, but it was quite barmy in some ways and you won’t find me an apologist for it! And Chris Y, I never realised they had to lower the RT’s tyre pressures to get them off Anglesey, presumably after that first accident!
I can’t answer your query about the transfer of SaRo bodies at Aldenham, Phil, save to say that their incompatibility with RTL chassis meant, unlike regular RT bodies, they were not put onto RTL chassis because they, too, were non-standard and disposed of earlier. Incidentally, there was nothing odder than seeing a roofbox-bodied RTL – //tinyurl.com/p5dgkls
Chris Hebbron
28/05/13 – 08:53
Chris H – some most interesting insights into LPTB/LTE policy and practice. I hope I wasn’t imagining the necessity to lower the Saro RTs for their journey from the factory, but I’m sure that I read it somewhere reliable. I’d never considered the feature of roof route number boxes on RTLs but having looked at these pictures I’ve quickly decided that I liked them, and on the RTs too. I think they gave just a little “look of determination” to the otherwise curvaceous and attractive fronts. On a practical level too I’m sure that the all important route number was more easily seen by intending passengers in heavy traffic – perhaps though there were risks of damage and leakage from incidents in mechanical washing machines, although none seems evident in photographs.
Chris Youhill
28/05/13 – 08:59
Well, Chris, Neville, Roger and Chris. Been away and just read your theses on London Transport. Can add little other than whole hearted agreement. Look no further than the premature withdrawals all having longer (happy) lives with a second (major) operator than with LT – including the not particularly happy Swift/Merlin fleet in Malta. As a Sheffielder, I will always have a soft spot for the Cravens.
David Oldfield
28/05/13 – 11:13
Chris H, my first visit to London from up North was as an 8 year old in 1955. The roof box fascinated me and, over the years and on many visits into the 1960s, I managed a few rides on roof box RTLs.
Chris Y, you aren’t suffering from excess imagination as the reduction in tyre pressures has been documented in a few publications over many years. Given the longevity of the tale and the fact |I’ve never seen it contradicted, it may well be true.
Phil Blinkhorn
28/05/13 – 11:14
Just to finish our deviation, there were a few body oddities with LPTB I never mentioned. Several “pre-war” RT’s were fitted, post-war, with quarter opening front windows, for an experiment, I assume. One of them had its front roofbox altered for them by an errant tree, the former never being replaced. This reminds me that LPTB, in 1942, were authorised to build some semi-austerity bodies to STL style, to be fitted to unfrozen Regent I chassis. In the event, only three were so fitted, the rest going onto used chassis. The highbridge versions all had the roofbox fronts, but minus the roofboxes. The rest of the highbridges had a mix of “float” boxes some back to 1932. They all had crash boxes and sensibly went to hilly parts of Country Area. These highly non-standard, semi-austerity vehicles lasted until the very end of STL operation, me catching my only ever glimpse of one (re-painted green by then) as a garage “hack”, in mid-1955, within days of withdrawal. So, sometimes, non-standard was valued!
Chris Hebbron
28/05/13 – 17:03
An interesting aside to Les’s posting is that Wass Brothers were an apparently well respected independent and although it is now fifty five years since they sold out to East Midland, their garage and premises on Westfield Lane, Mansfield survive to this day in their entirety and are now used by another well known independent, Johnson Bros/Redfern Travel.
Chris Barker
29/05/13 – 06:57
Just wondered if anyone has any details of the years of Wass ownership re the Ex Lincoln Corporation Leyland Titan TD4. Did they have two? Presumably the RTs replaced them, Any info will be most welcome.
Steve Milner
29/05/13 – 10:03
Wass Bros Mansfield. Regarding the depot comment by Chris Barker. I wonder Chris, perhaps you are mixing up the locations here? I live in the district and I’m frustrated at how little history from the 20’s to the 70’s was recorded. As such I’m not saying you’re mistaken but my understanding is that the Wass Bros depot was about half a mile further up Westfield Lane, at the junction with Redgate Street. They (WB) did have an ‘office/house/HQ’ on Welbeck Street in Mansfield but I’ve no evidence that they occupied the Lindley Street Garage used by Redferns for some 30 odd years. Research suggests that The Lindley Street depot was a late 20’s extension to the original Neville & Sons Motor Garage on Westfield Lane. George Neville was a pre WWI Mail Carrier and operated the first omnibuses in Mansfield, his business expanded into wagon building and adaptations and moved to a larger site just before WWII. The body building company still exists in the town today, although owned by some foreign multi-national. The Westfield Lane/Lindley St site then seems to have passed to existing Lindley Street haulier Tom Eason, who must have been attracted to the bigger garage just down his street! He rapidly developed his business into specialist carrier, Westfield Transport Ltd. They moved to a purpose built site in 1958 before being taken over by Pickfords in 1964. The Garages were then occupied by another haulier, W.T.Kemp, by the 70’s his sons were operating the site as a Saab and DAF cars dealership. Redferns moved into the Lindley Street Garage in 1975. It was 5 years before the Wass Bros depot site was re-developed with the building of a pub known the The Redgates. I’ve never seen any picture taken in or around the depot so if anyone would care to share? I do however have a picture of JXC 219, still in Wass 2 tone red but with East Midland decals. It is photographed with serious front dome damage, seemingly having tried to pass under a bridge some 3 or 4 inches too low. Amazingly none of the glass in the upper deck looks to have failed, well built those Cravens bodies? There does seem to have been 2 ex-Lincoln TD4’s in the fleet, VL 8847-8. Listed with Wass from June 1952 till April 1956.
Berisford Jones
29/05/13 – 18:13
Berisford, I’m sure you’re correct in what you say. I do have one or two pictures of Wass vehicles which I took with me to Mansfield a few years ago to try and identify the site, which I thought I had but unfortunately I didn’t know about the premises further up Westfield lane. Oh well, at least some of the other operators sites, Trumans, Ebor, Red Bus and Naylors are still recognisable! With regard to the ex-Lincoln TD4’s, there was also an ex-Chesterfield TD5, HNU 818 and it made me wonder if the three RT’s replaced the three Titans but the RT’s didn’t arrive until 1957 so were there any more second hand double deckers?
Chris Barker
29/05/13 – 18:14
Thanks for that Berisford – most welcome ta
Steve Milner
30/05/13 – 06:00
I have the first 2 RT’s listed as arriving in May 56 as the 2 TD4’s leave and the 3rd RT looks to have entered service with Wass in November 56 as the Chesterfield HNU818 departs?
Berisford Jones
30/05/13 – 06:00
That’s interesting, Chris, regarding ex-Chesterfield Titan HNU 818. Sisters HNU 817/9/20 went to Rotherham Corporation in 1956, as a stop gap measure until three lowbridge Daimlers that the corporation had ordered could be delivered the following year. I was only young, but I recall riding on one of them one evening, on its way into town from Dinnington, and it left a lasting impression, as it was such a raucous machine.
Dave Careless
30/05/13 – 06:00
Oh dear, I feel the imminent onset of the famous “egg on the face.” I’ve just looked in Ken Blacker’s splendid book about the RTs and there is a photo of a long line of the Saunders buses on the Menai Straits bridge – a portal is visible and there appears to be plenty of headroom, so I don’t know what to make of the tale about reducing tyre pressures – perhaps someone once made a “tongue in cheek remark” ??
Chris Youhill
30/05/13 – 08:31
Chris, don’t be embarrassed. As I said before, that tale about tyre pressures has been around a long time. I remember having first read it whilst still at school, and I left school in 1965.
Phil Blinkhorn
30/05/13 – 12:26
Wass’s service was a busy one which needed quite a bit of duplication and it would seem that there were six double deckers in the fleet at any one time, three bought new, a PD1/Burlingham, a Crossley/Willowbrook and an all Leyland PD2. The second hand ones as detailed, three pre-war Titans replaced by the three RT’s. The ones purchased new were all lowbridge and yet the service didn’t appear to require lowbridge buses. There was also a nice Willowbrook bodied PS1 saloon.
Chris Barker
31/05/13 – 06:23
Beresford the comments on Wass Bros depot on Newgate Lane. I have seen photos of No 12 (D48) in the yard this was a single deck building at the side, The photo is one of R H G Simpson collection. Don’t know if they are still available. The other gent on about tyre. London fitted 36×8 tyres and wheels to gain bridge clearance, I Know We fitted a High bridge bus and found it suitable. The out come was it Took a Long time for Sheffield to catch on.
Ian Bennett
31/05/13 – 06:24
Just wondered also which dealer supplied the Wass Cravens RTs ? I thought these were withdrawn by LT in 1954 or am I wrong ?
Steve Milner
31/05/13 – 17:47
Steve, according to the PSV Circle fleet history of East Midland, the RT’s were acquired by Wass via Bird’s of Stratford-on-Avon in 1957.
Chris Barker
01/06/13 – 06:18
Thank you Chris ! Appreciate this.
Steve Milner
01/06/13 – 06:19
The wholesale withdrawal by London Transport of the Craven RTs occurred between the summer of 1955 and the early part of 1956. Yet another indicator of LT profligacy was the repainting in 1956 of no less than 21 of these buses from Central red into green Country livery, only for them to be finally withdrawn into store after only one to six months of subsequent operation. The full story can be found here on Ian’s Bus Stop website
Roger Cox
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
01/06/13 – 15:27
Chris Barker, I wonder, have you got an erroneous/alternative copy of the East Midland PSV fleet list? My edition of PE13 and ‘Ians Bus Stop’ site clearly show the RT’s as acquired in 1956, with the PE13 even showing, with the help of local authority licence date, the May & November 1956 dates for the Wass Bros double decker in-out/swap overs!
Berisford Jones
02/06/13 – 06:34
Ian’s Bus Stop shows KGK 750, RT 1491, being acquired by Wass in November 1956. RT 1456, JXC 219, and RT 1480, KGK 739, are also listed as arriving with Wass in 1956, but the actual month in both cases is uncertain.
Roger Cox
02/06/13 – 06:34
Berisford, my copy of the East Midland fleet history is undated but bears the number PB1, current until 1963 with addenda for 1966 and 1968 so perhaps it is a little erroneous! I have had a look on the ‘Ian’s Bus Stop’ site which I didn’t know about and I agree with you that the dates are obviously correct and account for the withdrawal of the Titans.
London Transport 1948 AEC Regent III RT Weymann H56R
Here is a view of JXN 46, RT1081 1018 (see below) in full London Country NBC livery. She’s on parade in the Weymouth rally on 1 July 1979. She dates from 1948 and has a Weymann H56R body. At the time of the photograph, she was still in service – mainly on training duties – but is now preserved.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
17/02/14 – 07:57
I have been privileged to drive for a number of years for Peter Cartwright and Amersham & District on their running days. The Watford – Hemel section of the 302 has featured regularly for the annual August Hemel Running Day. March 30 sees the first Watford event. I’m hoping to be driving in the afternoon. Say hello if you’re there.
David Oldfield
23/02/14 – 15:24
Think you’ll find that JXN 46 is RT1018 not 1081. Used to drive it when I worked out of Tring in the early ’70s. It used to belong to Mike Lloyd of Wigan. Not sure if he’s still got it.
Keith Williams
24/02/14 – 07:46
It is indeed RT 1018, not 1081. I bought it in September 1981, and yes, I do indeed still have it. That photo was taken at Weymouth Bus Rally 1st July 1979. This was the bus’s first-ever rally and it was still owned by LCBS at the time. We rallied it from Hemel Hempstead Garage for a couple of years, then when it was withdrawn, I bought it. Of course, I didn’t live in Wigan in those days. It is currently having a bit of re-restoration, which it is entitled to after 32 years in preservation.
Mike Lloyd
25/02/14 – 06:54
Hi Mike. Pleased to know you’ve still got 1018. Can you tell me if you’re going to rally her again after her re-restoration. If so ,where? Love to see her again after all these years. Seems we’ve all moved north as I’m in Crewe now.
Keith Williams
26/02/14 – 12:08
Appologizz for the triping eeroar! I must check more carefully in future.
Pete Davies
15/09/14 – 06:57
I was just doing a bit of research on this bus, my late father Barry Neave was pictured with it sometime back in the 80’s I believe. Was just really interested in where it was and what it was doing, is it still being restored?
Celina Neave
18/09/14 – 07:50
I don’t visit this page often, so sorry for delayed reply to Keith. When she is back on the road I shall certainly take her to rallies now and then; however, restoration is proving long-drawn-out because of time constraints so I can’t say when it will be. The bus is kept at the North West Museum of Road Transport at St Helens these days but is not on display, obviously, because it’s in the workshops.
Celina – very sorry to hear that Barry is now “the late.” He was a part-time driving instructor at Hemel Hempstead and RT 1018 was “his” bus for that purpose. He was a great help, visiting other bus garages and scrounging spare parts for the bus, some of which I still have. I have loads of pics of the bus working as a trainer, but not sure if Barry is in any of them because normally he would be sitting in the saloon giving advice and instruction to the driver, so you couldn’t see him in photos. I may possibly have one of him at a rally somewhere, although he didn’t always accompany us. See above for where the bus is now, and yes, it is still under restoration – mainly things I had not restored previously, of course. Rest assured, she’s in good hands. I wouldn’t part with her for anything, having known her since 1959.
Mike Lloyd
22/09/14 – 07:12
Thank you so much for the reply Mike it meant a lot to hear some more information about dad and the busses, it was his life. If you did have any pictures of dad with the bus they would be more than gratefully received, my mum Gloria had the picture we have as I think she accompanied dad on the rally? I’d love to come and see the bus, or maybe when it’s on rally again. Thank you so much again.
Celina
04/11/14 – 17:21
Looking at this posting of RT 1018 sent me scurrying to an old photo album where I found this photo taken in the yard beside Victoria Garage [GM] round about 1950/51 when this RT had worked a relief Green Line in from St.Albans. I cannot swear to it being 1018, it could be 1013 as the writing on the back has faded plus I am standing in front of the number plate but thought it might be of interest.
Graham Crockett
26/11/14 – 06:18
This is the picture I have of dad with the bus.
Celina
16/01/15 – 09:03
Here is a photo I took of RT1018 possibly at a Cobham rally in the 90’s.
G Crockett
19/01/15 – 12:11
Re the photo taken of the RT at Victoria (GM) Garage Yard around 1950/51. 04/11/14 at 17:21 posted above by Graham Crockett. It would be RT 1013 as the batch RT 1005-RT 1014 were allocated from new to St Albans (SA) RT 1005-RT 1011 had roof route boxes whereas RT 1012-RT 1014 had the route number box in the lower down position. I was living in Albans at that time.
M Horan
21/01/15 – 15:17
Picture taken of RT 1018 in 1980 at possibly Southend Rally.
G Crockett
29/03/15 – 18:01
Celine Neave Your dad was a well respected by all. When I first started at Two Waters he was helpful to me and I have never forgotten that.
David Jenkins
07/06/15 – 06:27
I also remember 1018 from it`s days at Tring in the 70`s. I was there until it closed in `77, then went to Amersham. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember we had an RT that had an RF type steering wheel, and I think it was 1018. I also remember David Jenkins, especially when he was made up to inspector.
Brian Keating
08/07/15 – 05:39
If there was an RT with an RF steering wheel it certainly wasn’t 1018. 1018 returned to Hemel as a training bus and had an RT wheel, which of course she still does. I do not think you could actually fit an RF steering wheel to an RT as the columns are different. I remember David Jenkins, too. Sorry to say I have not so far found any pics of Barry Neave with the bus, although it was his regular vehicle. I’ll keep looking.
Mike Lloyd
06/02/17 – 10:27
Was it not one of the 34 that were sold onto LT and ended up in Norbiton Garage for the 65 till RT’s ended on 16th Oct 1975? Maybe I am confused with the passage of time.
George Chmielewski
16/03/17 – 06:24
No, it most certainly did not pass to LT. It was the first LCBS RT to be overhauled and painted into NBC green, at which time it worked from Chelsham. There were four others, two training buses (subsequently scrapped) and RTs 604 and 3461, also now preserved. 1018 was also the only one to receive a repaint into NBC green, but now it is back in its proper livery – Lincoln green.
Mike Lloyd
27/03/18 – 06:50
Happy memories of RT 1018 at rallies in the 80’s Woburn showbus etc. I hope all of the Lloyds and 1018 keeping well? Might have to pay a visit if at St Helens as mentioned in previous comments.
Mark Richardson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
06/12/18 – 12:22
Hello Mark, didn’t see your comment until just now as I don’t visit this page very often. Yes thanks, we are all well, although the RT is in need of skilled surgery to her nearside lower deck after 37 years in preservation. I am getting on with this as time permits and she is getting better slowly. She is still in the museum at St Helens, but not on display as she is in the workshop which is not open to the public for reasons of safety. If you do come, check first that we are open (we close after Christmas until February for cleaning, maintenance and the like. If you visit on a Sunday I shall be there and I can take you up to see the workshop and the bus. It’s a long time since she was at Woburn or anywhere else for that matter, having been stored now for many years.
St Helens Corporation 1952 AEC Regent III RT Park Royal H30/26R
BDJ 67 is one of the few Regent RT buses built for an operator other than London Transport. We see her here in full St Helens livery while taking part at the gathering at Brooklands on 13 April 2014. She has Park Royal H56R bodywork. St Helens had forty of these RTs taken in two batches, this actual vehicle and seventeen others were sold to Hull corporation in 1962. No, folks, it isn’t just a figment of Ken Dodd’s imagination – there really is a place called KNOTTY ASH!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
02/06/14 – 07:19
Not many of the RT’s who ‘escaped’ working for LTE had the traditional RT body. The St. Helen’s ones looked very smart in this livery, which was, of course, a much lighter colour on the top half.
Chris Hebbron
02/06/14 – 09:35
St Helens RTs even had a London Transport bullseye on the fuse box covers The eccentric way the blinds were used with a large number and squashed via points was interesting Incidentally St Helens also ran to Clock Face!
Chris Hough
02/06/14 – 10:45
The adjacent vehicle is NXP 997, RT4712, in Queen’s Golden Jubilee livery. She’s part of the LT collection and was on a day out from the Museum.
Pete Davies
03/06/14 – 07:43
This thread and Peter Williamson’s comments regarding Southport in the A Matter of Opinion thread have really stirred some memories. In 1954 my Dad bought a Standard 9 and on certain summer Sundays we would proceed in a stately fashion to either Southport or Blackpool. We would rarely make either as my mother preferred the “more refined” areas of Ainsdale and Lytham St Anne’s! The St Helens RTs were a sight to behold as they crossed the East Lancs Rd or proceeded on the service to Southport. The colour scheme, like Southport’s (and for that matter Stockport’s) always was cleanly presented and looked a cut above most other towns and cities in the North West. The large surround to the coat of arms was also “different” though why the Department used the blind layout it did is a mystery to me. It sort of spoiled the overall effect and, with a substantial fleet of these vehicles surely using the indicator spaces as intended would not have been a significant extra cost. Cross referencing again to Peter on the other thread, I well remember the DUKWs -and the Bedfords that eventually ran on the sands. Southport probably had the smartest all Leyland PD2s of all and, operating alongside the St Helens RTs the enthusiast, myself included had the unique experience of seeing, in my opinion, THE pinnacle of UK bus design of the era running side by side every day.
Phil Blinkhorn
On the surface of it these were strange purchases for a Lancashire municipality. However it is easier to understand when one learns that the GM at St Helens at the time was R Edgeley Cox who had a hand in the design and development of the RT when he was in a previous post with LTE. Despite being ‘high quality’ vehicles they had relatively short lives at St Helens as they apparently fell foul of a subsequent GM’s views on operating costs after Mr Cox had moved on to Walsall. The preselector transmission gave lower MPG than manual gearbox buses and as a result the RT’s were sold on in the early 1960’s.
Philip Halstead
03/06/14 – 11:14
Thanks for your various comments, gents. The pinnacle of UK bus design, Mr Blinkhorn – the QL and the DUKW? You’re jesting, of course!
Pete Davies
One wonders if the purchase price was favourable, bearing in mind that they were purchased as part of a large on going LTE order. This might have helped to defray subsequent running costs somewhat.
Chris Hebbron
04/06/14 – 08:07
Pete, is anno domini getting to you? The PD2 and RT is what I said but, come to think of it, the DUKW and the QL could be the pinnacle of municipal transport oddity. Are there other contenders? Llandudno may be a good starting point.
Phil Blinkhorn
04/06/14 – 08:07
The book ‘Local Transport in St Helens’ by Maund & Ashton states that the RT had a lower overall height than conventional highbridge buses and that this was another reason for their purchase as St Helens had some height restricted routes. I was never aware of this feature of the RT but would welcome any comments from those with greater London knowledge. I agree with Phil that the rather obscure use of the standard London destination display did spoil the appearance and detract from the very attractive livery. When several of them were sold on to Hull they were fitted with that operator’s standard blind display and were given another very attractive livery, the streamlined blue and white/cream.
Philip Halstead
04/06/14 – 08:08
This is a far more interesting story than at first appears, probably because the name R Edgeley Cox comes into it. The appearance of these buses- emphasised by the livery- belies their date, even though other (relatives?) such as CH Roe were producing some smart looking bodies oop north by the early fifties. The odd thing is the destination boxes- you would think it would not be a big issue to alter them to suit the purchaser- or were they really an off the peg or cancelled-order deal? And if these buses were available to buy (unlike Bristol/ECW) why didn’t more municipalities buy them? This was surely the age of the preselector- and hundreds of Daimler CVD’s of that era survived a full innings. So what did St Helens buy instead after 10 years? Atlanteans?
Joe
04/06/14 – 09:13
Joe, St Helens never operated Atlanteans operating a mixed fleet of Regent Vs and PD2s.
Phil Blinkhorn
04/06/14 – 15:17
I knew exactly what you meant, Phil. I was just being suitably provocative to match my Welsh background!
Pete Davies
04/06/14 – 15:17
Malcolm Keeley’s Buses in Camera ‘Mercian and Welsh’ has a good colour shot showing two of the Bedford QL’S on Ainsdale beach.
Roger Broughton
04/06/14 – 18:15
Pete, I have a Welsh friend who lives just down the road. You have just explained a great deal!!
Phil Blinkhorn
05/06/14 – 07:32
Phil, I could tell you about the “Honorary Welshman” contests we had a College on St David’s Day, but it isn’t fit for ‘family viewing’!
Pete Davies
05/06/14 – 07:33
Phil- the Atlantean reference was a bit of irony… but can’t see the logic of presumably losing money on the early sale of these RT assets: perhaps Hull made them an offer they couldn’t refuse…
Joe
07/06/14 – 08:22
I believe the RT was only 14’3″ high, although how that was achieved I have no idea. It makes sense for this to have been part of the attraction, because St Helens also had its own unique version of the Leyland PD2 – the PD2/9 – on which bodywork of reduced height could be built. Regarding the early disposal, Joe may have hit on something. There was a lot of networking between municipal managers in those days. I can just imagine the St Helens guy grumbling about a daft legacy left by his predecessor, and I can imagine the Hull guy saying there had never been a better bus than the preselective Regent III, next best thing to a trolleybus, wish they were still available etc etc. Next thing you know, a deal is done and everyone’s happy.
Peter Williamson
08/06/14 – 07:20
A more suitable destination indicator set on an ex-St Helens RT as produced in Hull. No. 135 was photographed by me on 11 April 1967.
Malcolm J Wells
08/06/14 – 07:21
The destination “Knotty Ash” on a St Helens Corporation blind threw me, as it seemed to be an unusual short working for a bus on the 317 to Liverpool. So I read page 40 of “Local Transport In St Helens” (Venture Transport) and all became obvious. Greyhound racing was a popular pastime in St Helens, and additional buses were put on to Knotty Ash Stadium on race nights. Then in 1950, Liverpool Stanley RLFC relocated to Knotty Ash Stadium as Liverpool City RLFC. I doubt that St Helens RLFC played many matches at Knotty Ash, due to the teams being in different divisions, but there is a photo in the book showing 10 St Helens RTs parked on East Prescot Road (opposite Dovecote Baths) for an event. As an aside, my dad lived in Knotty Ash in the 1920s in 9th Avenue, on an estate of prefabricated “cabins” built as a rest camp for the U.S. Cavalry on their way to/from the Western Front. This site was adjacent to Knotty Ash Station (well worth a read on the Disused Stations website) www.disused-stations.org.uk/k/knotty_ash/ as are all the stations of the Cheshire Lines Committee.
Dave Farrier
08/06/14 – 09:51
Reading further in the Maund and Ashton book, the reason why the RT was not more popular with provincial operators may have been its cost – almost £500 per bus, compared to a standard Regent III, a considerable amount at that time. Also, I don’t think it was just the PD2/9s which were of reduced height – further on in the chapter it is mentioned that all the 1956/1957 deliveries had the “now standard configuration…of reduced height”, and I think this can be discerned looking at photos of St. Helens DDs. And regarding the short life of the RTs, at the time St Helens did keep their vehicles for a relatively short time compared to other north-west municipals; in 1967, whilst still buying new rear-entrance DDs, they were already selling the 1956/57 PD2s which would have probably been considered profligate at Stockport, for instance!
Michael Keeley
11/06/14 – 08:12
Some of the St Helens RTs were bought by Harper Brothers of Heath Hayes, neighbours to Walsall Corporation and R. Edgeley Cox. Both operators shared a 14’3″ bridge in Cannock. Walsall also had 5 ex LT RTLs, but they were limited to the routes they could be used on because of their height.
Tony Martin
11/06/14 – 11:28
Didn’t I also read that the suspension and profile of the tyres on RTs contributed to their “low height” characteristics?
David Oldfield
30/10/14 – 15:14
Besides the one AEC RT that is in a Scottish museum are there any more of the forty still surviving.
Mr Anon
23/06/15 – 06:32
BDJ 807 had been kept at Rugeley Trent Valley for many years but has now vanished. Does anyone know where it is now?
Tony Martin
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
04/12/17 – 08:47
The ex-St. Helens RT formerly parked at Rugeley was acquired by Ensign and is currently being restored to be part of their vintage fleet. The company have a very interesting blog that provides news and pictures – //ensignvintagebuses.blogspot.com
London Transport 1949 AEC Regent III RT Craven H30/26R
After operational trials with the revolutionary new chassis during 1938, initially equipped with a 1932 vintage open staircase ST body, the RT prototype re-appeared in August 1939 with an advanced all metal body of very graceful appearance built by Chiswick. An order was placed for 150 of the modern double decker, which was almost immediately raised to 338, with production of 527 each year from 1940 onwards being intended, though the ultimate envisaged total is not recorded. Then came WW2 and the sudden curtailment of bus production, though the order for the first 150 was completed. These, however, had Chiswick built composite bodies, presumably to conserve metal consumption during the hostilities, and the the last example entered service in 1942. With the end of the war, the RT programme was reactivated by AEC in 1946, by which time the chassis design had undergone several improvements, notably in the engine which now had toroidal cavity pistons increasing the maximum output from 100 bhp to 125 bhp, though LT derated this to 115 bhp in the interests of economy and extended life. The jig built metal framed bodywork programme for the RT took a while to establish, and the first postwar RT chassis from 1946 went to provincial operators who equipped them with standard contemporary bodies from their own suppliers. The LT RTs began appearing from 1947 with bodywork by Park Royal and Weymann, but chassis deliveries began seriously to outpace those of the bodywork manufacturers. In 1948, anxious to update its tired pre war fleet, LT turned to other bodywork constructors, selecting Saunders-Roe and Craven to make up the deficit. The Saunders body was metal framed using the firm’s own cruciform pillar design, but the end result outwardly resembled the standard Park Royal/Weymann product very closely. Indeed, the Saunders body was held by LT engineers to be of superior constructional quality, and, although Saunders received a second order for 50, making 300 in total, the unforeseen sharp decline in bus travel from the early 1950s meant that no others were built. The 120 Craven bodies were very different, being simply that manufacturer’s standard design married up to the RT cab and bonnet. The bespoke mountings meant that these bodies were not interchangeable with other RT chassis and this entire batch had to be overhauled separately at Aldenham. They were delivered between September 1948 and April 1950, the first twenty seven being painted green for the Country Bus & Coach department, and allocated to Watford and Windsor depots. The rest were red for Central Bus operation, and their allocation was spread about in seemingly random fashion. Ironically, from 1949, the supply situation went into reverse. RT chassis production could not keep up with the increased bodywork deliveries, and London Transport embarked upon the futile and very costly course of modifying some late STL chassis to accept standard RT bodies. Thus was born the SRT class which proved to be pitifully under powered with the 7.7 engine and dangerously under braked. After a service life of about four years they were all withdrawn, the chassis being scrapped, and the bodies transferred to new RT chassis. As bus patronage declined during the 1950s LT found itself with a significant fleet surplus of vehicles, large numbers of brand new RT and RTL deliveries going straight into store. (This, however, did not deter LT from investing heavily in its new Routemaster for which, at the time, there was no operational necessity.) With large numbers of new RTs and RTLs waiting to take to the road, the non standard Craven RT fleet was earmarked for early withdrawal and most went into store during 1955/6, only for twenty red examples to be repainted green for Country Area service in March/April/May 1956. They did not last long, being withdrawn again between one and four months later, the expensive repainting exercise being yet another example of LT profligacy. At merely six to eight years old, the Craven RTs, became bargain purchases on the secondhand market, going on to serve their new owners for up to a further thirteen years, proof, indeed, that the Craven body design was entirely sound. RT 1431 was delivered to LT in May 1949 and sold out of stock on 30 April 1956 to the dealer, Bird’s of Stratford upon Avon, being very quickly bought by a member of the Ardrossan A1 Service, who ran it for ten years. Early in 1966 this bus was secured for preservation, and the picture shows it at Brighton during the 1970 HCVC Rally. The destination display has been reduced to represent the situation that prevailed in the early 1950s when linen for bus blinds was in short supply. Since 2004, RT 1431 has been a member of the Ensignbus fleet.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
06/07/21 – 05:59
I always found the flatter and less rounded sides of the Craven RTs front to be more attractive than the standard RT body, but the rear was pure Cravens, with its curved upper deck, lower window and number plate positions. RT 1 was initially given the Christopher Dodson body of ex-City Leyland Titan TD111, dating from 1931. It then became ST1140; all very confusing!
Here are two photos of ST1140, which are quite rare
Chris Hebbron
07/07/21 – 05:58
I just like them as buses – but equally like the “standard” RT design. The Cravens were my favourites of the 100 9612Es delivered to Sheffield Transport between 1947 and 1950. They were among the last in 1949/50. Good looking buses with a long life. Excellent though they were, the Weymanns had a permanent scowl which detracted from their appearance. Strangely enough, the lowbridge version (eg RLHs) had a more balanced and appealing appearance – not a thing said very often of lowbridge buses.
David Paul Oldfield
25/07/21 – 07:18
I believe that fitting the old body onto the new RT1 and disguising it as ST1140 was with the intention of fooling competitors into thinking that it was just another old London type. But as the body came from a TD class, which was filled with various acquired Leyland TD1s [and some TD2s?], I wonder how much modification was needed to make it fit? The wheelbase would surely have been different, yet the image above of ST1140 as fitted does not look out of proportion, or crude in any way. This must have been rather an expensive refit for such a short time before the modern body was fitted.
Michael Hampton
26/07/21 – 07:09
Good points, Michael. The Leyland TD1/TD2 was the largest class taken over from the independents by London Transport, not far short of 200. The almost new ones from 1931/33 had modern bodies by Christopher Dodson/Birch Bros. Many of the class finished up with Liverpool Corporation, painted grey and used for ferrying employees to/from sensitive sites. Incidentally, I’ve found another, poor, but mystery, photo of ST1140, posing as some sort of mobile unit, with spats on rear wheels, plus front side lights with reduced lighting area: wartime mode. Yet RT1 was in service with its new body, pre-war, in mid 1939!!
Chris Hebbron
27/07/21 – 06:37
Several interesting comments here, and thanks, Chris, for those pictures of AEC/LPTB’s ‘Q ship’, ST1140, surely devised to fool the competition (Leyland) whilst the new chassis was being tested in service. As Michael has hinted, the disguise of an old open staircase body from a TD1 might well have been decided by the wheelbase. The early Regents of the ST class had a wheelbase of 15ft. 6.5 ins, which was slightly curious because Rackham had only just left Leyland where his new TD1 Titan had been designed with a wheelbase nearly a foot longer at 16ft. 6ins. From 1932 the Regent had a wheelbase of 16ft. 3ins, but none of the later LPTB examples had such elderly looking bodywork that must surely have been deliberately chosen to camouflage the new beast. The new RT chassis – certainly not yet known as the Regent III – had a wheelbase of 16ft. 4ins, for which the old Dodson body must have been adaptable. Chris’s latest picture is a bit of a puzzle because RT1 was fitted with its new Chiswick built body in April 1939, so what is it up to in that photo? The threat of war had been hanging over Britain certainly since 1938 when huge production of war material such as Hurricanes, Spitfires and bombers was initiated, so perhaps ST1140 was used in its final days as a test bed for wartime specifications.
Roger Cox
27/07/21 – 06:39
Actually, now that all three photos are together, and comparison of the first two with the bottom one is possible, it is quite clear that the body on bottom photo is quite different, bearing all the hallmarks of a Tilling/Dodson body from an ex-Tilling ST, some of which started to be withdrawn in the immediate pre-war period. Although body sag might not have been apparent on these frail bodies in 1939, there is no trace of it, nevertheless. What’s all this about???
Chris Hebbron
29/07/21 – 06:25
Thank you Roger for your note on the wheelbase dimensions of the related chassis here. I can quite see how the two inches difference between a TD1 and the RT prototype would be quite easily dealt with in LT’s workshop without showing any obvious crudity. No doubt it was written up as a “research and development” expense, along with everything else that was involved. I had thought that there would have been a very different wheelbase dimension between a TD1 and an RT – but my assumptions have been proved wrong! I was surprised by the difference between the first Regents and the TD1, as they were more or less contemporary in design and production. That seems even more puzzling, but no doubt it’s another story to be told on another occasion.
Michael Hampton
11/08/21 – 05:45
It’s worth noting that RT1’s new Chiswick body had a seating capacity of H29/26R suggesting that it would have breeched the gross vehicle weight limit in force at that time if the standard H39/26R capacity was used. The gross vehicle weight limit was relaxed during the war and again after the war.
Michael Elliott
17/08/21 – 06:30
I had not thought of it before, but some years ago it was pointed out to me that timber/composite rames were heavier than metal. The “Prewar” RT1-150 were of composite construction, unlike the post war bodies. It is likely that they might be heavier and that certification require fewer seats.
David Oldfield
18/08/21 – 05:52
You are probably generally right about the weight of timber frames versus metal frames. But I have a feeling that in the case of the RT family, the “pre-war” ones, [RT2-151] were actually lighter than the post-war version. I have a memory that some of the pre-war machines were kept in service for a longer period than most of the batch due to their allocation for a route over a weight-limited bridge or similar structure. The post-war ones deemed as too heavy. I cannot now remember what route it was, but think it was the outer London suburbs, north of the Thames. I assume that the offending structure was rebuilt or the route diverted when the time came to withdraw these last few pre-war RTs.
Michael Hampton
21/08/21 – 06:15
It was Country Area route 327 that used them.
Ian Mason
22/08/21 – 06:22
Yes, Ian is correct. The Hertford garage based 327 route between Nazeing and Broxbourne crossed a weak bridge over the railway. This service was one of the last strongholds of the postwar STL class until they were displaced in May 1955 by seven wartime RTs, with engineering backup from a couple of others, one in red livery, that served as trainers but still had full psv certification. The Chiswick composite constructed body of the wartime RT had an unladen weight of 6 tons 15 cwt, significantly less than the 7 tons 10 cwt of the Park Royal or Weymann bodied standard RT. When the bridge was suitably reinforced, these RTs were withdrawn in August 1957. I acknowledge Ian’s Bus Stop for padding out my memory with accurate dates.
Roger Cox
22/08/21 – 06:23
There were seven of them, RTs 36, 62, 79, 93, 114, 128 and 137, nicknamed “The Magnificent Seven!”. They were all re-painted into green and based at Hertford Garage from 1955 to 1957. Some had full blinds, even the route number box, but some had one-piece ex-STL blinds. All, bar one, lasted until 1963, some finishing as learner vehicles or as Aldenham hacks. Postwar RTs weighed in at 7.5 tons if memory serves, but the wartime ones were definitely lighter.
Chris Hebbron
25/08/21 – 05:52
Here’s a photo of Green RT 128, fully blinded, on route 327.
Chris Hebbron
03/10/21 – 17:23
The vehicle shown in Chris Hebbron’s picture of 26 July is not RT1 (aka ST1140) with its Dodson body. It is an early postwar 3RT chassis, 0961079, new in 1947 which was used as a training chassis for, I believe, the depot engineers. Because chassis production at the time was outstripping body production, it was evidently decided to use a secondhand body, and the Tilling body from ST977 was fitted. The vehicle was known by its chassis number and never had a Service Vehicle number. It lasted in this role until 1953 when the body was scrapped and the chassis emerged with a new Weymann body in 1954 as RT4761. However it was stored until 1958 and the chassis was eleven years old when it finally entered passenger service.
Basil Hancock
05/10/21 – 06:12
Thanks, Basil, for clearing up the mystery of my 26th July posting. What an extraordinary history of the chassis, taking 11 years before it finally appeared in revenue-earning service as RT4761 And a Tilling ST body fitted here without any sag!!
Chris Hebbron
06/10/21 – 06:19
RM8 took even longer, not entering passenger service until 1976 when it was 18 years old. This made it the last rear entrance and the last half-cab double decker to enter service in the UK, although it was not exactly new at the time. And just to add to the statistics, Chiswick Experimental RT3995 only operated in passenger service for three months before becoming Chiswick’s new toy. Even Merlins and Fleetlines lasted longer than that.
Here are two photos of the former Chiswick Experimental RT3995 in service with Spencers in High Wycombe on 3 November 1969. I am not sure who did the rear end modification, but it looks quite professional so it might have been LT themselves.
Basil Hancock
07/10/21 – 06:27
Interesting about RM8, Basil. RT3995 looks very well turned-out, but looks a little odd with that style of enclosed platform. Thx again for letting us know about these sorts of oddities, otherwise lost over the years.
Chris Hebbron
10/10/21 – 19:27
RT1431 was strutting her stuff between Dorking and Putney Heath on the 93 running day yesterday (9 October) – along with RT1 and sundry other members of the RT and RM class. RTs predominated and most of the buses were “showroom” condition – a testament to the hard work and care lavished on them by their owners. I’ve said it before but, Three cheers to the preservationists who continue to make these events possible.
David Oldfield
11/10/21 – 20:26
Wish I could’ve gone, David. Living at Morden until 1956, the 93 was our long-distance through-route, initially served exclusively by 1RT1s, but Sutton’s D’s would later put in an appearance and Merton’s STL’s and D’s would appear on the Summer Sunday extension from Morden to Dorking, when I’d persuade my mum to splash out for a ride into the country and green buses! In those days, that whole journey was in Surrey!
