Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
A Mayne & Sons 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Park Royal H41/32R
As there has been a recent article about A Mayne & Sons on the “Articles” page I thought this shot was appropriate. Here we have a rear entrance Regent V working its way through the busy streets of Manchester. It is fairly obvious to say the least, that it had a Park Royal body the top deck is very Bridgemaster. Maynes had three of these Regent Vs registrations 6972-4 ND all delivered in December 1961.
2D3RA Regent Vs were 30ft long, most 27 footers were 2MD3RA (etc). LD3RAs were the original 30 footers with the earlier Regent III type A208 engine – as were the D3RVs of (for instance) Sheffield and Liverpool. The series 2 models were brought in on the introduction of the wet-liner AV590 engine (AH590 in the Reliance). Some confusion arose, initially, when some were known as 2LD3RA models but eventually all became known as 2D3RA. Similar confusion arose with later Reliances with 8U3ZR (coil springs) and 9U3ZR (12 metres) models eventually giving way to 6U3ZR for all variations and lengths of the 691 and 760 Reliances. We can blame BET for the Bridgemaster ugliness of these, and the East Kent, Regent Vs.
David Oldfield
Regent V Mk 1: D and MD were 27ft long, LD was 30ft. Regent V Mk 2: 2MD was 27ft long, 2D could be either 27ft or 30ft. Maynes were 30ft, as indicated by the seating capacity.
Peter Williamson
There’s no doubt about it, Mayne’s was (and is) a fascinating operator, worthy of interest but, I feel, very under reported through the years, in fact I don’t recall seeing pictures of any of their vehicles before the Regent V’s. It would be nice to see a fleet history also.
Chris Barker
Venture Publications produced a well illustrated history of Maynes a few years ago which also contained an abridged fleet history. Don’t know if there are any left, but it might be worth trying their retail arm’s website (mdsbooksales). If not the book is widely available on stalls at rallies etc as a second-hand item. Hope this helps.
Neville Mercer
08/06/14 – 14:17
Talking about AEC Regent Vs, their designations, lengths, and capacities, I have a query which I have posted elsewhere, but, up to now, drawn a blank. Garelochhead Coach Services purchased six Regent Vs new, plus, I think, a second hand one later. The ones purchased new were of type MD3RV or 2MD3RA, i.e. 27-footers with the smaller engine. All are recorded as having been 64 or 65 seaters, apart from the penultimate one, 49 (DSN 657D), which has always been recorded as a 73 seater. In photographs it looks to have been the same size as all the other Garelochhead Regent Vs, and the only suggestion that there was anything different about it comes from the body number, which apparently had an ‘A’ suffix. Can anyone explain?
Bolton Corporation 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Metro Cammell H40/32F
Taken in Bolton bus station this Regent V is working route 81 Four Lane Ends I’ll come back to the destination later. This was one of a batch of six Regent Vs they were the first and only AECs that Bolton took delivery of since the solitary AEC Q of 1933. Their post war double decker fleet apart from the odd batch of Daimlers CVGs and quite a few Crossley DD42/3s have been Leyland Titans and Atlanteans. All Bolton vehicles passed over to SELNEC on the 1st of November 1969. One of the Regent Vs registration SBN 767 fleet number 167 as been preserved and there is a very good shot of it here and guess what the route number and destination is.
Linking this post with the Bradford post and Chris Youhill’s most recent comments. Nothing beats a Roe decker for me but, as I have said previously, I fully agree with Chris that the Orion is much maligned. Apart from the first “lightweight” models, the Sheffield examples were always well turned out and finished. I too, have a soft spot for them. These Bolton examples look to be in the same mould, but are strangely out of place in this fleet. I never remember them in my time in Greater Manchester from 1971 to 1980.
David Oldfield
Sister vehicle SBN 767 is currently in the care of the Bolton Bus Preservation Group but is off the road awaiting restoration. BBPG’s active fleet includes former Bolton Transport East Lancs bodied Atlanteans 185 and 232 and similar (but longer and delivered in SELNEC orange) 6809.
Neville Mercer
11/05/11 – 07:13
Yes the sister vehicle is still barely in existence however it is in a very poor state after being abandoned on a farm for a number of years. I’m led to believe that the farm owner is due to cut up and scrap the remains due to the fact that the owner/s haven’t paid any rent for the vehicle.
A. N. On
12/05/11 – 07:10
I believe the route the bus is working on is a short-working of the old SLT trolleybus route from Bolton to Leigh from Howell Croft bus station. I think the full route to this day is still numbered 582.
Dave Towers
14/09/12 – 06:52
Just to get things correct the location is Howell Croft South. Howell Croft was split in two when the Town Hall, seen in the background, was doubled in size. The 81 was in-fact a short-working on the 82.
Malcolm Gibson
03/11/14 – 06:31
A short lived colour scheme … seemed odd at the time … but when a few of the older Leylands were painted in this scheme … definitely odd!!
Iain H
03/11/14 – 16:27
The colour scheme was Ralph Bennett’s first as Manager, based on the Plymouth scheme from whence he came.
Phil Blinkhorn
04/11/14 – 06:44
This colour scheme on this chassis/body combination gives them quite a Hebble look.
John Stringer
05/11/14 – 06:32
It always puzzled me why Bolton bought these, as they were completely non-standard. The pre-Atlantean fleet was quite a mixed one really, as though they couldn’t make their minds up quite what they wanted – although basically Daimlers and Leylands with MCW or East Lancs bodies, hardly any two batches were the same – 30′ Daimlers with rear entrance MCW or front entrance East Lancs, PD2s with full-front MCWs, PD3s with rear or front entrance East Lancs, or full fronts, etc.
Michael Keeley
05/11/14 – 11:33
I think that often when an operator – particularly a municipal one – purchased an odd batch of vehicles that seemed ‘non-standard’ to mystified enthusiasts it was usually to do with the tendering process resulting in an offer they couldn’t refuse (in the interest of saving ratepayers’ money) or the manufacturer being able to offer more attractive delivery dates than the preferred supplier.
John Stringer
05/11/14 – 15:37
John makes an excellent point. Many a manager who, for excellent engineering or operational reasons, wanted a particular vehicle type, found himself over ruled by his committee for political or “economic” reasons. One of the most crass decisions was that of the Manchester Committee which denied Albert Neal his desired Tiger Cubs and forced the Seddon bodied Albion Aberdonians on him, breaking their own Leyland/Daimler only purchase rules and then, as Leyland owned Albion, having them listed as Leylands and having the Albion badges which Seddon had affixed, removed. Of course the vehicles had a long, distinguished career – long in being kept as often as possible in the depot, distinguished in being of poor finish, ride and serviceability.
Phil Blinkhorn
06/11/14 – 06:10
Manufacturers sometimes did bid low in an attempt to penetrate a “glass wall” of long standing custom and practice in purchasing followed by some municipalities. Municipal General Managers did succeed in getting their own way much of the time, as could be seen from the often dramatic change in favoured manufacturer following the appointment of a new GM, but Transport Committees were the ultimate power, and a low quotation would have been mightily tempting to the custodians of ratepayers’ money. (One can imagine the heated reaction in camera from a GM who had suffered the imposition of an unwanted vehicle type in the fleet.)
Roger Cox
20/07/15 – 05:38
Yes, I always thought the same as Michael about Boltons fleet. They seemed to have a lot of small batches which were all different, some 27 feet long, some 30, some with tin fronts, some St Helens moulded fronts, and some exposed radiators and also the same with Daimlers. When they changed to Atlanteans they seemed to become more standardised, some of the earlier ones had Metro Cammell bodies, then they seemed to standardise on East Lancs.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Devon General Omnibus & Touring Co Ltd 1964 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Willowbrook H39/30F
This very good looking Willowbrook bodied AEC Regent V of Devon General is I think about to start on its long distance run to Plymouth. It had not been in service very long when this shot was taken in the summer of 1964. It is on route 128 which was Torquay to Plymouth, the via blind reads Ivybridge and Totnes but on looking at a map it should be via Totnes and Ivybridge, still it will be right for the return trip. This route was one of the joint service long distance routes operated with Southern & Western National. Devon General also had an agreement with the largest city in their area Exeter, so Devon General buses did quite a few inner city routes and City of Exeter buses would be seen on some of the out of city routes.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
It is possible that the intermediate display is printed so as to show the places only once, thereby being “wrong way round” on every other journey. This was a fairly common practice where operators quite reasonably sought to avoid wastage of the expensive material.
Chris Youhill
It is a very smart body, perhaps slightly marred by the heavy look of the sliding windows. Amazing how rear wheel ‘spats’ always improve the look of buses. Was this a common feature of Devon General?
Chris Hebbron
24/03/11 – 17:25
Most Devon General AECs had rear wheel trims (dustbins) fitted which improved appearance and made it much easier to keep the wheels clean.
Royston Morgan
15/05/13 – 15:29
Does anyone have any information on a very old green bus (could date from as early as the 1920s) which was sited in Wakeham’s Field in Shaldon, Devon in 1951. I came with my parents and sisters to Devon that year and we lived for nine weeks on the camp site whilst waiting for a house. We lived in an old bus for the final few weeks. It had been partly adapted as living accommodation. It had a former Admiral’s (or Captain’s) bathroom area installed – a quite grand mahogany wash basin which lowered down. I have recently seen one of these contraptions on the Antiques Roadshow. I think we still had to pour water from a container into the basin but it drained away after use into the area which would once have been the driver’s place. The bus itself had long seats on the right side as you went in – rows of them I mean, rather than the normal two x 2 each side. Each seat would have taken 4- 5 people. I think some of the windows may have been painted over – probably because there was no way of having curtains. I have never seen a bus of that design anywhere other than the Midlands in the late 40s.
St Helens Corporation 1957 AEC Regent V MD3RV Weymann H33/28R
The letter in front of the fleet number denotes the transport committees sanctions codes for new vehicles, I think I have seen this before with another operator but who just slips my mind at the time of writing. I am not quite sure as to why it is used unless it is a way of dating the vehicles. The strange thing is that it was only used on their double deckers mind you when this shot was taken in the summer of 64 St Helens corporation only had 4 single deck vehicles. Three AEC Reliance Marshall bodied buses and rather strange for a corporation fleet a Leyland Leopard L2 centre entrance Duple Britannia coach. Not quite sure what that was used for, school children to the swimming pool perhaps or for private hire, they would not of been the first municipality to go down that road.
H or L often meant High or Low bridge? Some municipalities would have coaches to take civic parties on tours of inspection- eg the planning committee!
Joe
It’s been said before, and it’s still true. In the right livery, the Orion could be a handsome beast. This is an excellent example. [So is an STD Orion!]
David Oldfield
In this colour scheme, being light on the top half, the whole vehicle looks balanced and attractive. And the rear wheel spats give a touch of class!
Chris Hebbron
Sheffield had the (in)famous 9000 WB, a Reliance/Roe Dalesman C37C – for the use of the Transport Committee but available for Private Hire. It was alleged that this was bought “because Leeds had one” – but I do not know whether this was true. Salford had a late (1962) Weymann Fanfare/Reliance which became an airport coach after SELNEC took over. It replaced a Daimler CVD6/Burlingham – both originally committee coaches. The St Helens Leopard was a 1962 Motor Show exhibit and is pictured in Doug Jack’s book “Leyland Bus”.
David Oldfield
You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head David. In the right livery the Orion could indeed be a handsome beast. In this neck of the woods Samuel Ledgard operated four ex-South Wales AEC Regent Vs and an ex-Tyneside Leyland Titan PD2 with such bodies, and they looked a treat in Sammie’s blue and grey livery. The Regents were somewhat spartan inside mind you, but they had the most beautifully raucous exhaust note to compensate. Following Ledgard’s takeover by West Yorkshire in 1967, the AECs were numbered DAW1-4 and later allocated to Harrogate depot. My brother and I would deliberately walk from our usual stop in Bilton, to the one at the top of King Edward’s Drive, just for the sheer pleasure of catching one into town (and obviously back!!). They were generally to be found on the 1/2 Bachelor Gardens-Woodlands and the 9 New Park-Oatlands services, which suited us just fine. At the time I had a morning paper round, and so was also treated to the glorious sound of them barking their way up Bachelor Gardens or the Hill Tops just after seven each morning. Fabulous!
Brendan Smith
DAW 1 – 4 were indeed vehicles full of character Brendan. DAW 2, MCY 408, was the first Ledgard vehicle to be painted in West Yorkshire colours quite soon after the takeover. Along with all the AECs it was initially allocated to Otley and while working the last journey home at 22:35 from Cookridge Street it failed at the Gaumont Cinema (as was). It was taken to Roseville Road and treated to a mechanical wash with a vengeance – being 14’6″ inches high it fouled the washing machine and suffered a damaged front roof dome, it was quickly repaired and became the first red “Sammy’s” double decker since G.F.Tate’s WN 4759 in 1943.
Chris Youhill
20/11/11 – 07:30
The Leyland Leopard L2 coach was number 200 (SDJ 162). On October 9th 1965, I had booked to go, as a Liverpool fan, to Old Trafford to see Liverpool play Manchester United. My friends and I went by bus from Huyton down to Lime Street as we had booked on Crown Tours of Liverpool to get to Old Trafford. I had a pleasant surprise to find that our coach was SDJ 162, on hire to Crown. However we lost 2-0 to goals from Best and Law, so the coach remained the highlight of the day. It was later part exchanged against Bedford VAM 201 (KKU 77F) and was not traced after that.
Dave Farrier
20/11/11 – 13:35
David Oldfield mentions above the fact that Sheffield had a coach because Leeds had one. Leeds first coach was a 1965 AEC Reliance with a Roe body based on the Roe bodied AEC Reliance service buses bought at around the same time It was numbered 10 ANW 710C and was bought for private hire it went into preservation but its current whereabouts are unknown. Just before the PTE took over a trio of Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopards were also purchased numbered 21-23 MUG 21L etc
Chris Hough
20/11/11 – 14:44
Chris. How interesting – since the Sheffield one predated your Leeds one by about seven years. The story mangled the facts a bit, evidently. As a matter of fact, I actually drove 10 when it was owned by Classic Coaches of High Wycombe on a private hire from Reading to Lord’s Cricket Ground, London, and back. It was of Classics original fleet of four (including a West Riding Dalesman, a “Brown Bomber” Harrington and a Royal Blue MW/ECW). Mr Crowther then grew too quickly and went pop – after which I lost track of his vehicles. A lot of the interesting ones found further homes in preservation – it is to be hoped that the three Reliances above were among them.
David Oldfield
22/11/11 – 07:27
David This posting proves what a small world it is! I went to secondary school with David Crowther and later worked with his wife. Like many enthusiasts I think he let his heart rule his head despite training as an accountant
Chris Hough
22/11/11 – 09:16
Small world indeed. A very nice man – but not a successful operator – but I know a number of “professional” operators who would fit this bill as well. [I also know a number of the latter who run the ship with military precision but are thoroughly unpleasant people to work for!] PS David had a cracking pair of Leyland engined REs as well!
David Oldfield
13/07/12 – 06:10
I went to school on this vehicle. If I remember I think the Letter in the fleet number was related to the registration number. A DDJ bus would be D### and K199 was a KDJ registration.
Geoff Atherton
14/07/12 – 18:09
To pick up a point raised in the original post, about “sanction codes” in front of fleet-numbers: the ten AEC Regent Vs delivered to Bradford Corporation Transport in November 1962 (126-135) carried the code “A” – they were the only vehicles so to do. These vehicles had been ordered in March 1961. John Wake, GM at St. Helen’s, had been appointed GM at Bradford in March 1961 . . . but left for Nottingham in July 1962. This innovation didn’t survive beyond his departure – although the St. Helens-style three piece destination layout did, and the earlier Regent Vs (106-125) were converted to this layout. I gather, from J S King’s excellent three-volume history of BCT, that John Wake didn’t stay long at BCT because his anti-trolleybus views put him in conflict with a good proportion of the Transport Committee . . . although that didn’t, during his short tenure, stop him pushing through the agreement in committee that led to the final decision to decommission the trolleybus operations.
Philip Rushworth
05/08/12 – 07:24
Re the comment from Geoff Atherton, St Helens K199, Reg No. KDJ 999 was an experimental Regent V front entrance bus bought in lieu of the fact that Leyland could not supply Atlanteans. She was unique to the Corporation and as far as I can remember had the nickname “Big Bertha”. She ended up on the 309 service from Burtonwood to Southport, but had a habit of running out of diesel on route. Apparently, whilst on charter to Blackburn, she also dropped part of her engine on the nearside lane of the M6! As far as I am aware, she is still extant in the North West Transport Museum in St Helens.
Alan Blincow
22/08/12 – 14:58
St Helens Corporation had a kind of year letter system but it was only briefly used on double deckers. Some had the letter stencilled internally, others didn’t. Some had just the fleet number at the front of the bus, others didn’t. It was only used between 1954 and 1966, the final six Leyland Titan PD2As and three AEC Regents (1967) were just 50-58. Letters A-D were retrospectively applied, A being pre-1945, B were 1945-47, C 1948. The London specification AEC Regent RT types were given letter D. Sanction E was the first to be applied new, to Leyland Titan PD2s (1954/5), F (1955/6), G (1956). H, J and K were AEC Regent Vs of 1957-59 and the first “St Helens bonnet” Leyland PD2As of 1960. Letter L applied to AEC Regent Vs and Leyland PD2As built in 1961/62. L was used for the 1965 Leyland PD2As instead of M, but these had year-letter registrations and the corporation decided that with future new buses having year letter registrations the fleet number prefix was no longer necessary so it was dropped. However many of the L prefixed buses carried them internally until withdrawal in Merseyside PTE days in the late 1970s.
Paul Mason
25/05/13 – 08:34
Re Alan Blincows post… K199 was used on the 309-319 services between Warrington and Southport extensively between 1963 and 1967 and most certainly didn’t run out of fuel on the ‘last Southport’!!!. The tank was more than ample for any duty that the Corporation ran. I think you are referring to an article in Mervyn Ashtons otherwise excellent book on St Helens Transport…. Let’s just say that Mervyn was using a little ‘poetic licence’ at times!!!. I bought Big Bertha from Tom Hollis at Queensferry in June 1978, and later sold her on to Ray Henton at the North West Transport Museum, where she still resides…
Roy Corless
24/08/14 – 10:39
Yesterday I did a wedding hire with ex St Helens AEC Regent V/MCW bus no 58. A warning in the cab says Unlaiden height 14ft 3 1/2in . So this must have been the standard for the corporation till the last half cabs were delivered
Geoff S
04/08/16 – 11:12
Does anybody know if St Helens K199 (Big Bertha) had any work done on it?
John M
01/12/16 – 06:54
In reply to your inquiry K199 has had a clutch slave cylinder replaced, But the master also needs work. This will be done sometime in 2017 to enable the bus to be moved around the museum more easily. The sides of the bus are Bulging so work is required to the main body.
John P
27/05/17 – 07:33
Update on St.Helens K199 (KDJ 999) Big Bertha. The clutch hydraulics have now been sorted and the engine started for the first time in 15yrs. It still resides at the North West Transport Museum in St.Helens, there is going to be a show next year at the town hall square where it is hoped K199 will be on display.
John P
02/05/18 – 07:50
Does any one know if Big Bertha k199 is running yet?
John M
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
10/06/18 – 08:45
Yes it is running but unfortunately it cannot be extricated from the position it is in at the museum but the interior has been completely repainted on the lower deck to the standard of what it was when it was in service with St. Helens.
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Weymann H39/30R
Nearing the ending of its days, 441 was one of 26 Weymann H39/30R bodied AEC Regent V 2D3RA delivered in April 1960 to replace trams on the penultimate route – Meadowhead to Sheffield Lane Top . There were also 20 Alexander bodied Regent V for the same purpose. The photo was taken on 13 July 1974 at Whirlow Bridge. The presence of the Roe bodied Regent V (also delivered in 1960) in the background and the group of people nearby suggests it was an enthusiasts tour. Presumably 441 was not working on a route from its home garage as the correct destination of Dore is not shown. Orion bodies can look good!!
Couldn’t get much better than that, Ian (two of my favourites) – but could you not have got the Roe bus better, or nearer, or both!!! But of course Orions can look good – especially at 14 years old. With the Roe bus being near the entrance to Whirlow Park, could it have been a wedding hire?
David Oldfield
Are all your photos this good, Ian? Do you have enough for a book? It occurs to me that, good as it is, Charles Hall’s book is photographically incomplete and that must leave scope for a “Glory Days” or some such (of Sheffield Transport) – using your photos and first hand knowledge. After the Roes, these were my favourites, but why the extra long 5 seat benches over each rear wheel arch and why, from 71 in total 1960 Regent Vs, were only a few Weymann’s fitted with exhaust brakes? [It got that I could identify individual buses, with out seeing them, from my desk at school!]
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Roe H39/30RD
This was part of another big order that Sheffield placed with AEC in this case for a total of 71 Regent V 2D3RA model, all delivered in 1960. 1331 was part of the B fleet contingent of 25 buses all of which had this style of Roe bodywork whilst the A fleet received vehicles bodied by Weymann and Alexander. Items to note in comparison with Roe bodied Leyland PD3 fleet number 462 delivered the year previously is the reduction in the number of sliding windows by two in each side of each deck but the inclusion of vents in the front top deck windows plus of course the addition of platform doors. These were manually operated by the conductor and would no doubt be appreciated on some of the longer services such as the 72 to Castleton in the Peak District. I have a watercolour painting done for me many years ago by a good friend of one of this batch operating on service 72 between Bamford and Hathersage. Comparing this bus with Roe bodied Regent III fleet number 1265, the change of livery to include a cream painted radiator surround gives the bus a lighter appearance whilst in this case the legal owner is Sheffield Transport Department. Although many of this batch were withdrawn in 1972 (maybe at the expiry of their second CoF – 7 years initially plus 5 years recertification), my PSV Circle fleet list shows this bus as still in service in October 1973. This is another Coachbuilders official photograph taken at the Roe premises in Crossgates, Leeds.
Here we have it, Ian. My absolute favourites from my Sheffield childhood. Although, for the most part, built at the end of 1959, only about half were delivered on 1 January 1960, the rest were delivered on 1 April with the residue of Weymann and Alexander buses. There was a minor difference in that one sub set had an extra slider (on each side) just behind the bulk-head inside. I think these were what I called the Leadmill set – found on the 12, 22 and 59. The East Bank set were delivered in April and were put to work on the 38. It leads me to surmise that 1331 was an April, East Bank, bus. [Often, lower fleet numbers seemed to arrive before higher ones.] I’m still hoping that 1330, at Aldwarke, will eventually be rebuilt and take to the road.
David Oldfield
05/05/11 – 07:05
A classic photograph, with the fluorescent lights fully on in what was apparently the Roe drawing office in the background, where these wonderful bus bodies were designed and detailed! 1331 as it happens was the last Roe bodied Regent V in service at Sheffield, being finally withdrawn on 13 May, 1976. The other three of the batch which accompanied 1331 into that last year of back loader operation were 1332, 1336 and 1339, the three of them coming off the previous month. For the record, 1331 completed a full last day in service on that May day, shuttling back and forth between Sheffield Lane Top and Bradway on the 76; a fine testament to a superb vehicle.
Dave Careless
05/05/11 – 12:16
Bradway (75)? or Lowedges Road (76)?
David Oldfield
06/05/11 – 06:59
To all, interest in the Sheffield Transport/SJOC matters are certainly gaining momentum! The comments on the later intake of Leyland PD2/20 and 30, followed by the longer PD3/1 vehicles is a very interesting point. Undoubtedly, the problem of the Leyland change in the gearbox specification was a hard blow, particularly with respect to the newly trained, ex tram drivers. Possibly Leyland thought that Sheffield would turn to the Pneumocyclic option. The 40 PD2/20 Roe bodied batch in 1956 were taken into the A fleet, featuring the latest constant mesh/synchromesh gearbox. They were mainly replacement buses and would be driven by experienced drivers. Conversely, as time went by, the former tram men gained more driving experience and were able to master the buses lacking synchromesh on 2nd gear. Very definitely the 30ft long PD3/1/Roe buses, much heavier than the PD2 versions,were a problem to many skilled drivers,on steeply graded routes. To this end, the Chief Driving Instructor Charles Deamer devised a method of “Snatch changing” (a brutal change from 1st to 2nd gear) when starting on steep hills and this method was also used on the PD2’s. However, the driving staff preferred the easier life when in control of the AEC Regent Mark 111 and Mark V versions of 27ft and 30ft buses. Manager C.T.Humpidge re-introduced fluid transmission/Monocontrol to Sheffield A,B,& C fleets in 1964/5 and no further synchromesh buses entered service.
Keith Beeden
06/05/11 – 07:19
Well David, it was a long time ago! Perhaps it did a stint on both, but all I can say is that it was out all day, didn’t break down, and definitely wasn’t on the 33 from Lane Top to Hemsworth!! 1331 had a spell at Bramall Lane garage early in its career, as it shows up there in the allocation list dated 11th January, 1963, (with eight of its sisters, 1325-1330, 1332 and 1349) but that garage closed later that year, so presumably was an East Bank bus after that for most if not all of its working life. Fascinating hobby this, isn’t it!
Dave Careless
06/05/11 – 15:36
Certainly is and its good to know there are other Sheffield expert/enthusiasts out there. We may be outnumbered by the West Yorkshire lot and we can’t post as long as East Yorkshire but we will fly the flag for the People’s Republic of South Yorkshire (!!!).
David Oldfield
07/05/11 – 06:06
At PMT all the Leyland Titans, both PD2 and PD3 had the Leyland GB83 constant mesh second gearboxes. The driving school there taught the snatch change method of getting from 1st to 2nd on a hill start. Although not in the same league as Sheffield, the Potteries area did have a number of steep hills to negotiate. Once you got the hang of it, the snatch change was quite easy. The gear lever travel on the GB83 was much shorter than on the synchromesh second unit (think that was a GB74) which made the buses so fitted that much easier to drive. I queried the non use of synchro 2nd gearboxes at PMT and was told that the constant mesh 2nd gearbox had a generally longer service life between repairs. Even the Matador recovery vehicle had acquired a Leyland 0.600 engine and a GB83 gearbox!
Ian Wild
09/05/11 – 08:16
The Sheffield thread is fascinating. My brother-in-law-to-be was doing a practical stint at Laycock’s in 1960, so I went up to join him for a couple of days and we went merrily tram-riding only months before closure. My very favourites were the 1937 batch, but they were all very stylish, so it’s fitting that the 1959-60 Regents (which I assume were the tram-replacement batches) were so handsome. Even the Bridgemaster (not usually a favourite of mine) is well-proportioned—with the bonus of a prodigious seating capacity. Keith Beeden’s point about hardened gearwheels is an eye-opener: I knew that many variables affected the music of the same gearbox in different vehicle types, but I never realised that mere (!?) metallurgy could play such a part. But it makes sense: cardboard gearwheels wouldn’t sing. Could the hardened teeth that Keith mentions have been used in the NTG…-reg 1954 Rhondda Regent IIIs? They certainly had a distinctive whine. I’ve never driven a PD2 (except for an RTW) so I don’t know whether a clutch stop was fitted or not, but it certainly should have been! A clutch-stop would save wear on the cones when engaging 1st or 2nd from neutral, but I guess the builders judged that synchromesh had made that wonderful, simple device redundant.
Ian Thompson
09/05/11 – 08:19
A driver at Manchester once told me that the problem with the snatch change from first to second on the half-synchro PD2s was that every bus was different. Some required more skill than others, and some would not accept a snatch change no matter what. He found it more reliable to move the lever out of first, across the gate and gently forward, slowing the clutch down on third gear synchromesh, and then snick it quickly back into second.
Peter Williamson
10/05/11 – 07:13
A very ingenious solution, Peter!
Chris Hebbron
10/05/11 – 07:15
Ian, I agree with you about the Sheffield Domed trams (1936 – 1939 + war-time rebuilds). The majority of the tram replacement buses were 27′ Regents and Titans and I think, strictly, the only 30′ Regent V tram replacement buses were the Weymann and Alexander examples (A fleet). The Roe were B fleet – and there were no B fleet trams! I also agree with you about the Bridgemaster which looked good in Sheffield colours and with the traditional back end. It was the front loader which looked all wrong. Was never aware that the Bridgemasters caused any problems with reliability. That being the case, what was really the problem with it? Interesting to think of a comment I read that AEC pondered the possibility of replacing the Regent V AND the Bridgemaster with the Renown. Again, never heard of reliability problems with them either. …..unless anyone out there knows otherwise.
David Oldfield
12/05/11 – 9:39
Thanks for the clarification, David. I’ve never understood the Sheffield A-fleet/B-fleet distinction though, so perhaps you could outline that for me as well.
Ian Thompson
A Fleet: wholly owned by Sheffield Corporation for routes entirely within the City bounds, including those which replaced tram routes.
B Fleet: owned jointly by Sheffield Corporation and the Railway Companies or Boards. [Sheffield expanded its borders progressively from about 1920 until 1974. B fleet routes included some on the outer edge of the City which had previously been in Derbyshire or the West Riding and some which went over the borders.]
C Fleet: owned entirely by the Railway Companies or Boards. These routes included some Derbyshire routes but also all the long routes, including Manchesters and Retford/Gainsboroughs. For most, although not all, of its existence, C Fleet buses shared the same livery and generally similar types to the A (and B) Fleet. Management of all three fleets and routes was common, types of vehicle were similar (although platform doors and different seats may differentiate) and, of course, coaches would be B and C Fleet. The JOC (Joint Omnibus Committee) was set up in 1927 principally with the LMS and LNER Railways. With Nationalisation in 1948 these became Midland and Eastern Regions. The formation of NBC in 1969 caused the disbandment of the JOC – which had in effect performed as a regional bus company such as, and in the territory of, Yorkshire Traction and North Western. Many C Fleet buses were then, at this time, dispersed among NBC subsidiaries, notably Yorkshire Woolen. JOCs seemed to be a very Yorkshire thing – Halifax, Todmorden, Huddersfield – although Railways always had a stake in BET and Tilling companies as well prior to NBC formation. Although the Corporation retained most Derbyshire work, the remaining Manchester route (48) became a North Western operation and many of the others became joint with operators with whom they had previously work anyway.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/01/12 – 16:34
A somewhat belated response to the comment on snatch gear changes with Leyland PD2’s and PD3’s. I learned to drive in a PD1 in 1962 and was taught the technique at that time, as this was with Eastbourne Corporation there being no serious hills to contend with I can’t remember having to use it. However I joined Southdown in 1969 at Eastbourne and soon had cause to brush up the trick especially on the 12 route to Brighton which also included trips to estates at West Dene and Tongdean on the outskirts of Brighton which were very hilly (one reason the PD3/5’s went west). Probably the worst stop was at Downs Golf club 2/3rd’s of the way up the hill out of Eastbourne, not something you looked forward to with a good load of holidaymakers in the summer. I’ve never heard of the trick told to Peter Williamson, of using the synchro on 3rd gear to slow the gearbox when changing 1st to 2nd but I did use the same method but using 4th to make selecting 2nd gear when stationary much easier and quieter otherwise 2nd would grate noisily, I read this somewhere but can’t remember where. The same technique worked equally well when used with the direct air operated Pneumocyclic box as it cut out the jolt when engaging 2nd when stationary.
Bradford Corporation 1964 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Metro Cammell H40/30F
A while ago there was a thread re Bradfords Regent Vs so I thought I would contribute one of my shots it is of 208 a 2D3RA type with clutch and four speed synchromesh gearbox, and MCW H40/30F bodywork. When I worked in the Traffic Office for Halifax Passenger Transport in the mid 1960s, I used to ride from time to time on Bradford buses between Queensbury and the city centre. The howl of the conventional transmission Regent V in the intermediate gears on hills was part of the soundtrack of life in that part of West Yorkshire in those days – Hebble and Halifax also had buses of this type. In theory, the blue/cream livery should have been quite attractive, but in practice Bradford’s buses always had a slightly disappointing appearance to me. It was often said back then that blue paint did not wear as well as red or green, and this seemed to be borne out by the matt finish that Bradford’s buses seemed to acquire very quickly. Perhaps the Corporation’s bus washing equipment had a deleterious effect upon the paintwork.
I was once with a company whose corporate colour was light blue. It was not a very stable colour & depended too for its appearance very much on what colour was underneath it.
Joe
30/09/11 – 12:23
Bradford`s blue was always subject to quick fading, and the problem seemed to worsen when the Humpidge livery eliminated cream bands, grey roofs, and yellow lining. There was no finer sight than a newly repainted Bradford bus, but, alas, after a week, the same old look of faded gentility would appear! Perhaps BCPT should have resisted the temptation of using the Southend blue which so inspired them in 1942 when 4 trolleybuses from that town appeared on loan. The original dark blue was quite sombre, but had a certain elegance which seemed to emphasise the no nonsense attitude of a busy industrial city. I cannot imagine what the MkVs would have looked like though!
John Whitaker
30/09/11 – 15:22
I think the overall effect would be akin to the Lytham & St Annes blue or perhaps Pontypridd UDC both of these used a dark blue as their main colour.
Chris Hough
30/09/11 – 16:28
Hi Chris. No, I knew the Lytham fleet well, Bradford`s pre war blue was VERY dark, almost like EYMS. Lytham blue was more a royal blue, whereas Bradford’s was classed as ultramarine. Check it out on preserved tram 104.
John Whitaker
Just so happen to have a model AEC Regal in Bradfords old Livery.
Peter
30/09/11 – 21:59
To change the subject from paint to move to that transmission howl. Being brought up in Rochdale in the 1950’s I was obviously a great admirer of AEC Regent V’s. In the early 1960’s I made a journey to Huddersfield to look at the trolleys and after taking the Hebble 28 to Halifax over Blackstone Edge I changed to a 43 for Huddersfield. It was a Halifax LJX Regent V. I was absolutely distraught at the howling and whining sounds made by the bus especially on the long climb up to Ainley Top from Elland. Our Regent V’s in Rochdale never made sounds like that. Of course I found out later as my knowledge of bus engineering expanded that the Rochdale vehicles had fluid transmission, either pre-selectors (NDK batch) or Monocontrol on the later ODK, RDK and TDK registered vehicles. The NDK batch also had Gardner 6LW engines. I was never such a fan of the more common synchromesh Regent V’s after that experience.
Philip Halstead
12/11/11 – 06:11
Ah! The Bradford Regent Vs. They appeared to fall into two distinct camps – people either loved them or loathed them, and I make no apologies for nailing my colours to the loved ’em mast every time! As a youngster I used to try and guess which batch an approaching Regent V was from, before the number plate became visible. If memory serves correctly, taking the first batch (the PKYs) as a yardstick, these had fixed glazing in the front upper deck windows with a ventilator in the roof dome above them. The UKYs were broadly similar but whereas the PKYs had a straight lower front edge to the front wings, the UKYs (and subsequent batches) had a somewhat racier rounded lower front edge to them. Then came the YAKs, similar to the UKYs, but with opening front ventilators in the front upper deck windows and no ventilator in the front dome. The most noticeable change came with the YKWs, as they were the first to sport St Helen’s-style destination displays showing ultimate, via and route number information boldly and clearly (a classic display if ever there was one). They also had single rather than two-piece windscreens, fuller roof domes and a subtly deeper area of cream above the lower deck windows and cab/canopy. They lacked front dome ventilators but retained the opening vents in the front upper deck windows. Then came the 2xxx KW batch, seemingly identical to the YKWs, but the eagle-eyed would spot that the roof dome ventilator was back! The final batch – the 6xxx KWs – were the ones that I had to admit defeat on as they looked every inch the same as the 2xxx’s. However, once aboard, you immediately knew which was which as the 6xxx buses had light blue internal window surrounds rather than the cream used hitherto. In later years the Transport Department converted the PKYs, UKYs and YAKs to the St Helen’s-style destination displays, but they were still readily identifiable as they retained the original smaller route number blinds and tracks. Later they also added roof dome ventilators to the YKWs too, bringing them into line with the two batches of KWs. Fond memories of buses with undeniable character.
Brendan Smith
06/07/13 – 07:00
Has has been said many times the Bradford livery was superb when ex works. I can remember the FKY batch of Regent IIIs were always immaculate when returned from two year recertification. FKY 7, which was probably the last to gain a five year certificate, could always be easily identified at a distance by the creamy brown window pans caused by rust coming through, and the faded blue livery, until its later recertification, which transformed it from the ugly duckling to a magnificent machine in line with its sisters.
David Hudson
06/07/13 – 09:18
I have always been quite distressed by the vicious condemnation from many quarters of the Bradford Mark Vs. The exaggerated accounts of rough and violent rides are wicked to hear, and any such discomfort must surely have arisen largely from careless or deliberate bad driving. I drove many Mark Vs in my time, both two pedal and live gearbox, and never had any trouble with them. I was even allowed, for a reason I can’t remember, to drive a full load of folks around the Sandtoft circuit in preserved M & D VKR 37 – at the time I’d obviously never seen that vehicle previously, nor had I driven any Mark V for many years, but it gave no problems at all. Possibly the mountainous roads in Bradford encouraged “forceful” driving but, if so, there’s no excuse for this. Certainly the superb pure howling of the Mark V manual transmission in the first three ratios was glorious to hear, as indeed was the “petrol engine” smooth quietness in top !! I’ll never forget the civilised magic of the Ledgard Roe sextet 1949 – 1954 U when they appeared in September 1957. Incredibly, despite the use of the green demonstrator 88 CMV, they were not expected by the staff in general – surely one of the best kept secrets ever, especially within a relatively small operator.
Chris Youhill
07/07/13 – 07:36
Well said, Chris. Despite having the (slightly) suspect wet-liner AV590, Sheffield’s 2D3RA and 2D2RA Regent Vs gave full value and service lives in the mountains of Sheffield and the Peak District. […..and the “Pre-war Howl” of the 2D3RA was part of their (musical) attraction.]
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
14/07/13 – 07:50
Chris, I heartily endorse your defence of the much maligned Bradford AEC Regent Vs. Having had the pleasure of riding on many of the ‘YKWs’ and ‘KWs’ over the years, I feel much of the ‘problem’ as you rightly say was down to very poor driving. Whether they had lower ratio rear axles to cope better with Bradford’s many hills I do not know, but this would give improved acceleration on the flat, such as the services along Manningham Lane to Saltaire, Bingley and Crossflatts. Also if the engines were fully rated, this combination would no doubt encourage ‘spirited’ performances from BCT’s small band of would-be rally drivers. Exhaust brakes were also fitted to the buses, giving increased deceleration on braking if needed, so in the hands of said rally drivers – well you can imagine passenger comments! (Not to mention those of the poor conductor saddled for a full shift). Having also ridden on East Yorkshire Bridgemasters and Renowns, which shared many mechanical components with the Regent Vs, these did not appear to have the same afflictions. They generally seemed to be treated with much more respect by their drivers, and the ride was all the better for it. Another benefit of a more relaxed driving style with the AECs was that passengers were treated to the wonderful musical tones of the gearbox, as mentioned by Chris Y and David O, for that much longer!
Brendan Smith
14/07/13 – 10:04
Thank you indeed Brendan and David for your supporting views, and I’m sure that if a survey had ever been carried out amongst thinking folks as to the popularity of the Mark Vs the “Ayes would have had it.” We all have regrets on the lines of “Oh, if only I’d had my camera” and just such an occasion for me and a friend was when we foolishly omitted to take ours to Saltaire on the last evening of trolleybus operation. The trolleybuses had left that morning to take up service and were never to return to Saltaire Depot. In that quiet Saturday mid evening the front yard was full of new Mark V AEC Regents, and someone had taken the trouble to set all the route numbers to “O I L” – rather a nice touch really. So, to the lay passengers, its perhaps understandable to a degree that the complete difference in the nature of their future riding experience came as a culture shock, especially as I suppose only a minority were gifted as devotees of classical auto-mechanical music !!
Chris Youhill
14/07/13 – 14:21
My first contribution to this site quite a while back now was in defence of the much maligned Bradford Mk.V’s – and Mk.V’s in general – and I remember being heartened by Chris Youhill’s brilliantly worded response, as I then realised I wasn’t the only person on the planet who appreciated their qualities and characteristics. At the risk of covering old ground, Regent V’s were most certainly not Southall’s most durable and troublefree model, nor the most refined – that accolade in my opinion belongs with their 9.6 preselector Mk.III. I admit that Bristol, Guy and Daimler probably all turned out far more rugged, reliable, and economical products. There were so many different variants on the Mk.V theme. Permutations of short ones, long ones, lightweight and heavyweight, AV470/590/690/691’s, ones with the old 9.6, synchromesh or Monocontrol, tin front or conventional – they were all fascinatingly different, with widely varying characters and levels of durability and performance. Even apparently similar ones could perform quite differently. At Halifax we had sixteen of our ‘own’ and a small number of ex-Hebble ones. Though all were 30ft. AV590/Synchromesh types I believe ‘ours’ had in-line fuel pumps, whereas the Hebble ones had rotary pumps and performed quite differently – much better actually. Some could even be a bit dull – I always thought that Yorkshire Woollen’s Metro-Cammell-bodied ones were rather lacking in something. Then in PTE days we received quite a few ex-Bradford ones either on loan or transferred. These were a revelation, infinitely better than any of ours, and from my own purely personal enthusiast/driver/non-engineering point of view were the most satisfyingly pleasurable buses that I have ever driven during my 40 year career. Absolutely loved ’em !
John Stringer
15/07/13 – 08:27
36 hours ago I was enjoying working on Leigh Renown 28. A journey from West Yorkshire to the East Coast and back for tea! Fantastic gearbox music and a booming exhaust. I am a Bradford lad and loved the Mark Vs.
Geoff S
15/07/13 – 08:28
Just because one holds a less than rhapsodic view of a particular piece of machinery, that does not automatically brand one as an insensitive or clumsy driver. My driving experience of the Regent V was limited to the Halifax examples, and I make no apology for stating that I found them crude and unpleasant machines. On the plus side, they were quite lively, the steering was pleasantly light, and the all synchromesh gearbox was extremely easy to use. However, the clutch was excessively light and vague in operation, so that, unlike the much heavier but predictable Leyland clutch, one could never be exactly sure when transmission engagement would occur. Many drivers got round this by slipping the clutch in at (to my mind) excessive revs, which, in turn, gave rise to a juddery take off from rest, but I would endeavour to take greater care (yes, even though I was not the greatest fan of the Regent V). The ear splitting gearbox howl in the indirect ratios, which were perpetually required on the Halifax hills, plus the indescribable racket from the accelerator pedal as it rattled freely when released under braking or when descending hills, made the Regent V the noisiest bus, by a huge margin, that I have ever driven (though the Seddon Pennine IV is close behind). The accelerator pedal had an incredibly light return spring, so that holding the pedal at an intermediate position for driving at modest speeds left one with an aching ankle, and the air brakes had a totally non progressive feel to them. A gradual depression of the pedal produced no effect at all until suddenly over application came about. Easing off again then produced no result until, with a whoosh of escaping air, the brakes released entirely. This was a feature of AEC air brakes on other contemporary bus models, such as the Reliance. How Southall lost the knack of designing smooth progressive brakes after the excellent Regal III/Regent III, puzzles me to this day. John Stringer’s comment re in line v distributor fuel pumps is interesting, as it is generally held that the in line pump is more tolerant of variable fuel quality. I suspect the the distributor pumps on the Hebble buses were set rather more generously. We all have our own favourites and bete noires, and such views should surely be respected. I certainly refute the implication that my opinion of the Regent V arises from a shortfall in competence.
Roger Cox
15/07/13 – 10:25
I think the gentleman protesteth too much. I may have missed something, but I cannot recollect anyone accusing Roger of incompetence.
David Oldfield
15/07/13 – 10:26
As far as I can see, nobody has implied that at all Roger.
Thomas Burrows & Sons 1956 AEC Regent V MD3RV Roe L27/26RD
Thought this (the only pic I ever took of a Burrows bus) might be of interest. Fleet No.89 registration PWY 943 an AEC Regent V with Roe L27/26RD body, new in 1956 and Burrows’ last new decker. The picture was taken on the occasion of a PSV Circle tour from Manchester in 1965. Our transport, a North Western Bristol K5G can be seen at the far left, cooling down after its climb over the Pennines. We had to form a bucket chain at one point to extinguish the smouldering cab floorboards but did manage to overtake a Bedford coach as well! Operators visited on this tour included Phillipson’s of Goldthorpe (lots of Royal Tigers), Mexborough and Swinton and Rotherham Corporation. Happy Days!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Andrew Critchlow
Yes Joe it was the same bus as the Halifax Parade, fleet no.432
Andrew Critchlow
04/10/11 – 20:53
Whilst I remember the North Western K5G’s in service my memories of riding them date from the preservation era. Boy were they rough riders! Sitting on top deck at the front your nether regions got every vibration from the engine and gearbox. It’s a tribute to those Willowbrook bodies that they lasted so well under those conditions. I bet the original bodies didn’t need much removing – they probably self-destructed. Looking at the ‘Halifax Parade’ link was very enjoyable. I think I was there. The shots of the service buses in the background reminded me what a superb livery Halifax had. It even managed to make the ‘Orion’ body design look passably attractive! Happy days indeed!
Philip Halstead
06/08/12 – 07:25
In 1967 this bus was with Richards Bros, Moylegrove.
Newcastle Corporation 1957 AEC Regent V MD3RV Park Royal L30/28R
In 1956 Newcastle took delivery of 20 AEC Regent V’s with Park Royal H34/28R bodies, they were XVK 137 to XVK 156 and were numbered 137/156. The following year another 20 arrived, registered 157 AVK – 176 AVK and numbered 157/176 – 167/176 were the same as the previous batch, but 157/166 were L30/28R low bridge variants specifically bought for the service 5 to Darras Hall and Ponteland via the Airport, but they did venture onto other routes on occasion. I think some of the high bridge vehicles went to OK Motor Services at Bishop Auckland but I do not know if any of the low bridge type were sold on. I’m not a lover of ‘tin fronts’ and much prefer the exposed radiator type, but the AEC versions seem to be a bit less brutal in appearance than some others. The Regent III standing next to 158 is from the same batch as NVK 341 which has been beautifully restored and is now part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection.
Aah, now I’m feeling all nostalgic! A wonderful photo of two of my all-time favourite classes of Newcastle bus in Morden Street. The Regent V is, of course, the answer to Dave Lazzari’s recent query in the Q&As section. I liked the highbridge version too but I have happy memories of the lowbridge ones on trips out to the airport on service 5 – happy days! The Regent III has to be the ultimate Newcastle Corporation bus, absolutely stunning! I have vivid memories of travelling on them on the Spital Tongues Circle [service 8] and the 1s and 2s. In those days large numbers of buses and trolleybuses were parked in Morden Street mainly between the peaks.
Alan Hall
29/05/12 – 17:20
I agree the AEC Regent V tin front was the best looking of the lot. It always gave me the impression of a big smiling face. (Been reading too much Thomas the Tank Engine!). The Park Royal body of this era was beautifully well proportioned and blended with the AEC front so well. A total contrast to the later incarnations using Bridgemaster parts which were the absolute pits! (eg Southampton’s examples).
Philip Halstead
30/05/12 – 17:41
Phillip H, you’re being unnecessarily generous by describing the version Southampton had, as the absolute pits. I’ve always regarded them as shoe boxes with holes cut in. It didn’t matter whether the apparition was on a Regent V or on a PD2A, the effect on my eyes was the same. The Newcastle one illustrated above looks – to me – more like the East Lancs body which Southampton had on most of its Regents, or the standard for the RT. FAR more pleasing to the eye.
Pete Davies
31/05/12 – 08:08
As I’ve said before, just about the ugliest body ever built – based on the front-entrance Bridgemaster and the Atlantean design, or lack of it! The highbridge version of the posted design was one of the best ever – also produced by Roe and Crossley. Obviously the RT and RM bodies were classics, but after that the ACV group lost the plot. Only with the AN68 era body did they regain it.
David Oldfield
31/05/12 – 20:24
Except for a few examples of absolute boxes on wheels built on Park Royal frames Roe built their superb traditionally styled bodywork on front engined chassis until the demise of these as an option. The thirty foot Daimlers and AEC Regents bought by Leeds in the sixties were true examples of the coach builders art Whereas the front entrance bodies on a small batch of rebodied Tiger chassis owned by Yorkshire Traction were perhaps the very nadir of the Roe out put.
Chris Hough
01/06/12 – 07:07
I particularly like this combination of AEC and Park Royal. It’s a very well balanced and good looking vehicle. I can think of Western Welsh and Maidstone and District who took them as well and one or two independents also. Does anyone know of any more?
Chris Barker
01/06/12 – 07:09
The traditional composite Roe body, derived from the original Pullmans, has never been bettered. The last were Daimler CVG6s for Northampton in 1968. The Park Royal framed bodies were as a result of Park Royal needing extra capacity as a result of “too much” work – almost certainly the build of Routemasters from 1962 to 1968. It was, indeed, a small batch of Tiger rebuilds which had the same appalling body as that at Southampton and Swindon. The 1965 Tracky PD3s had a quite pleasant Roe version of the Park Royal body on a number of Sheffield Regent Vs. These looked a little better than the bodies on East Kent Regent Vs and the front engine Bridgemasters.
David Oldfield
01/06/12 – 10:05
Further to Chris Barker’s comment, the thirty-foot version of this body looked particularly fine. The first pair – exhibited at the 1956 Commercial Motor Show – were for Cottrell’s of Mitcheldean, and a convertible open-topper for Western Welsh. A further batch were supplied to City of Oxford, after which Park Royal switched to the MCW ‘Orion’-inspired box. I must say though, that despite their well balanced good looks, these bodies were of fairly lightweight aluminium alloy construction and were disappointingly hard riding and bouncy both on Mk. V and PD2 chassis in my experience.
John Stringer
01/06/12 – 15:57
John S..I must confess to no longer being a regular bus user but this week rode on a “58” plate Volvo/Wright double decker and was astonished at how appalling the ride was. Taking a top deck front seat meant I enjoyed a narrow staircase that I nearly fell backwards down because the driver set off with the usual foot to the floor take off then suffered a mix of rolling, swaying and undamped vertical bouncing on the cramped seat. Has the bus industry absolutely no idea whatever about how suspension works? Do they know nothing about adapting spring rates to the vehicle weight, correct damping control, anti roll bars, progressive spring/damper settings to allow a calm ride both when empty or fully loaded? This has been the daily work of the motor industry for decades and is not “magic”. Do any PCV builders ever drive a car..ever wonder how to provide a safe and comfortable ride or is it just an industry of dinosaurs who get a batch of lorry chassis parts, bolt them together on a cheap frame and nail a poor quality body on top hoping it will all come out alright? I apologise for being off thread saying this but John’s experience of Mk.V and PD2 chassis reflected exactly mine..just 55 years later!
Richard Leaman
01/06/12 – 20:41
I recall Maidstone & District’s Park Royal bodied Regent V’s on the 15 route from Hastings to Eastbourne which as John Stringer says were lightweight in build which made the ride quite lively and the performance very brisk. The beautiful balance of the body dimensions combined with the AEC bonnet design, which I always admired, made this combination one of my favourites the fact that they followed M&D’s batch of ugly Orion bodied PD2’s meant they were doubly appreciated. The AV 470 engine fitted to M&D’s had a very rorty exhaust note especially in a confined street which if the revs were taken to the limit made a waffling sound as the governor cut in. Richard Leaman’s about the ride and lack of comfort of modern vehicles hit one or two sore spots with me as at 6ft 1in tall space is to say the least limited.
Diesel Dave
02/06/12 – 11:51
Four of those Maidstone & District Mk. V’s were surprise temporary additions to the Calderdale J.O.C. fleet in 1972, two highbridge ones operating in Halifax and two lowbridge ones at Todmorden. By the time I started at Halifax the following year three had already gone, but the last one 362 (VKR 479) was still soldiering on – still in faded M&D livery – but unfortunately was withdrawn just before I passed my PSV. The AV470 engines left them seriously underpowered for climbing our local mountains, and they were not popular with the drivers – most of whom were not very keen on our own AV590 ones to start with. Conductors disliked them because of their platform doors, which I believe were not driver-operated probably on safety grounds, and which they had to open and close themselves. Of course according to the rule book it should have been no hardship, because they should have been in attendance on the platform whilst passengers boarded and alighted anyway, but, you know……..! They did make nice exhaust sounds though. Hebble had four similarly powered short Mk. V’s with Northern Counties bodies new in 1962 which had also really struggled up the same hills and had seemed an ill-advised choice, though they could ‘crack on’ once they got out of Halifax on flatter roads such as on the route to Leeds, but I imagine the M&D ones may have also been higher geared so would have been quite breathless.
John Stringer
02/06/12 – 11:52
Interesting comments from both Diesel Dave and John S on the riding qualities of the Orion and later Park Royal bodies. The M&D Regent Vs were an odd choice – a mere 22 of them, (14 highbridge and 8 lowbridge), sandwiched between 70-odd PD2s and the Atlanteans, which Dave will have come across early in their lives, as they were first introduced at Hastings. The company never bought any other AEC double deckers or Park Royal double deck bodies. Maybe they were influenced by neighbours East Kent? Because the Regent Vs were rare, I cannot comment personally on their riding qualities, my experience of them being limited to a couple of hours driving one, from which I can certainly confirm Dave’s memories of the rorty exhaust note. On the other hand, the Orion bodies on M&D’s Guy Arab IVs rode very satisfactorily, in my view. Could that have been because of the Guy chassis, or simply the terrain of the Medway towns where they operated? (unlikely, I should have thought). Also, although Dave describes the Orion bodied PD2s as ‘ugly’, I always thought the Arab IVs looked businesslike and smart; perhaps that’s because they were essentially urban vehicles. (There’s a posting of one on this site). It wouldn’t do for all of us to agree on everything, any way, would it?
Roy Burke
03/06/12 – 07:06
Mention of the Maidstone and District Regent Vs reminds me that they had notices in both saloons explaining that the buses were a temporary measure pending the delivery of new buses.
Philip Carlton
03/06/12 – 07:07
Gosh, John, I had no idea that M&D’s Regents found a second life with Calderdale J.O.C. 362 is presumably Calderdale’s number; at M&D, it was DH479. All four of the AECs that went to Calderdale would have been close to the end of their COFs, dating originally from 1956, (and being re-certified for 5 years from 1968), which will be the reason, no doubt, why they didn’t stay long. Conductor-operated rear doors were pretty much the norm in those days, I think, with provincial operators; the usual practice was for them to be left open in urban areas; conductors busy taking fares – especially upstairs – just wouldn’t have been able to keep opening and closing them at every bus stop. It’s a practice that every Tilling conductor, for example, would have known very well with Bristol Ks and Lodekkas. The draught-saving value of doors over open platforms was primarily felt on those parts of a journey that had longer intervals between stops.
Roy Burke
03/06/12 – 11:14
Roy, the M&D Mk. V’s that came to Calderdale J.O.C. were highbridge 361/362 (VKR 472/479) and lowbridge 363/364 (VKR 36/37), the last two looking very similar to the Newcastle one on the photo. They were acquired in January 1972, 361/3/4 being sold in June the same year, but 362 lasting until early 1973. The lowbridge pair went to Todmorden, whose depot could only accommodate lowbridge buses, and though as AEC’s they stuck out like a sore thumb in this previously Leyland-dominated town, and the growly exhausts rattled a few windows, the M&D livery looked reasonably at home, being not unlike the former T.J.O.C. colours. 362 even went for further service with Ede (Roselyn Coaches) of Par in Cornwall before travelling all the way back up north to be scrapped by a Barnsley breaker in 1979. 364 was acquired for preservation but was scrapped in 1976. The Geoffrey Hilditch era at Halifax ensured that both local enthusiasts and employees were always kept entertained !
John Stringer
P.S. When I say ‘both local enthusiasts’ I don’t mean there were only two of us !
03/06/12 – 19:38
“Both local enthusiasts”! As you say, John, there were decidedly more than that, and, unlike many other senior figures in the bus industry (then and now), and to his everlasting credit, GGH didn’t regard bus enthusiasm as some kind of severe, untreatable mental aberration. He was always receptive to those who shared a genuine and constructive interest in buses.
Roger Cox
04/06/12 – 07:52
The Maidstone & District Mk V’s weren’t the only ones to migrate north. Western Welsh LKG 661 operated for Ideal Service (H. Wray) of Barnsley after disposal by WW, although I imagine Ideal acquired it from one of the Barnsley dealers. I travelled on it once and I wonder if anyone knows what engines the Welsh ones had?
Chris Barker
04/06/12 – 17:19
Thank you, John, for the extra information on the ex-M&D Regents. However, I’m left a little bewildered by the fate of 364, (VKR 37, M&D DL37). Regular correspondent Chris Youhill recalls driving a preserved lowbridge Regent many years after 1976, and from memory, I was sure it was DL37. Is it possible this vehicle did actually make it and was not scrapped after all? If not, which of the 8 lowbridge Regents was preserved? I believe one of the highbridge Regents has been preserved, too, but I don’t know which one. Your comments, and those of Roger, about the accommodating attitude of Mr Hilditch towards enthusiasts rang a mildly ironic note with me. At M&D, it was emphasised to me that the vehicles were the company’s rolling assets, and that my feelings towards any of them should be based purely on operational criteria. Hence my acquired respect for 6LW engined Guy Arabs, which had the best record of any of M&D’s very varied fleet, and the reservations I developed towards their Atlanteans. I can’t help, Chris, with information on the engines fitted to Western Welsh’s Regent Vs, but no doubt someone more knowledgeable than I will be able to give the answer. I do remember, however, a lot of them had a shallow concave dent in the rear, caused by them bottoming out on the swichback roads of Carmarthenshire.
Roy Burke
06/06/12 – 07:42
It’s unusual that Maidstone and District, Newcastle and Western Welsh all bought both highbridge and lowbridge versions of this same combination. Regarding the engines on the Western Welsh examples, I thought the picture was not straightforward and I was correct. The lowbridge variants were on D3RV chassis and had AV590 engines, whilst the highbridge ones were MD3RV chassis with AV470 engines. Some of them lasted from 1956 to 1972 which was a long time by Western Welsh standards. 678 was one of the last and ended up in France, from where it was recovered for preservation a few years ago. It is now in the custody of the Cardiff Transport Preservation Group. The most interesting disposal was of 671, which after a brief sojourn at Knowsley Safari Park moved to Armstrong, Westerhope and then passed to Tyneside PTE as their 81 in 1973, being withdrawn in 1974. I’ve not seen pictures of it but it would have looked a lot like Newcastle’s if it got repainted!
David Beilby
06/06/12 – 09:44
David, if they were D3RV they had the A218 engine from the Regent III. The Series 2 chassis (e.g. 2D3RA) had the AV590 – the main point of the change to Series 2. Originally the AV470 “medium weight” Regent V was meant to be the norm. Some operators, however, only wanted heavyweight and insisted on what became the D3RV version. The wet-liner AV590 was not ready, the A218 was available. [Many regret that the AV590 eventually was!]
David Oldfield
11/06/12 – 08:34
David Oldfield is quite right that the A218 engine was far superior to the AV590 at least when fitted in the Regent V being quieter and smoother running I drove both types for Eastbourne Corporation in the 1960’s. Regarding my comments about the MCW Orion being ugly I think depends very much on the livery applied, I was recently looking at photos of Orion bodied PD2’s of Halifax fleet and finding myself admiring them in that wonderful green, orange and cream colour scheme, whilst liking M&D’s livery it didn’t seem to suit the Orion as well as it did the Park Royal or Leyland bodies that preceded them.
Diesel Dave
14/06/12 – 18:14
A very handsome vehicle. I saw one at Theydon Bois running day Sept 2011.
Bill Hogan
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
08/09/12 – 07:21
Further to comments above, another operator of the 30-foot Park Royal body was A Mayne of Manchester www.flickr.com/ These were LD3RAs, so presumably had the A218 engine. Mayne re-ordered from Park Royal and got this: www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ Is it any wonder they then went to East Lancs?
These vehicles pre-date my arrival in Gloucestershire and are interesting for that fact alone. Cottrell’s always needed ‘big boys’ for their services and the 30-footers fitted the bill. A much lamented operator. Thx, John.
Sheffield Corporation 1963 AEC Regent V 2D2RA Park Royal H38/32F
After several years of deliveries of rear engined double deckers, Sheffield bought batches of forward entrance for all three fleets in 1963 and 1964. This bus was from the first batch and is seen in May 1967 at the Oughtibridge terminus of service 18. Although four years old by this time, the bus appears to be in its original coat of paint with red lining below the lower blue band and the gold front fleet number. Brian commented recently on Sheffield Bridgemaster 525 that it was used on the service 7 to Stannington, I think it more likely that the bus(es) he recalls was one of these not dissimilar looking vehicles which were regular performers on that service.
Strange how companies ‘borrow – steal?’ design ideas from each other, I would be hard pushed to spot the difference between some Alexander and MCW bodies, and to me the upper deck on this vehicle could have come straight out of the Orion stable rather than Park Royal
Ronnie Hoye
03/09/12 – 07:50
These were essentially Herries buses for the north of the city – including the bit of the West Riding which would become part of the city after the 1974 Local Government Act became law. The 18 was the Oughtibridge route (on the main Manchester via Flouch Inn corridor) but a favourite haunt for the park Royal regent Vs was the 91/98 Grenoside/Ecclesfield Circular. I thought that 64 – 73 with Weymann bodies were better looking but apparently they suffered from being amongst the last bodies completed at Addlestone and the quality of finish was not up to traditional Weymann standards. Pity, though. These were delivered to East Bank in August 1963 and spent their formative years on the 28/43 group of Herdings routes.
Ian, there is an extant picture of 525 (in Charles Halls’ book) on the 70 to Wombwell – so she did creep north of the city centre.
David Oldfield
04/09/12 – 06:44
Could it also be a BET Standard? BET “asked” PRV to change the original Bridgemaster from Classic PRV style and construction to steel framed “Box on Wheels” that it became. That is when PRV began to look more and more like the Orion.
David Oldfield
04/09/12 – 08:34
A pair of identical Regents ended up with Hebble when the Sheffield C fleet was disbanded in 1970. They always stood out by virtue of their Sheffield style indicators they were then passed to Yorkshire Woollen when Hebble disappeared a year later.
Chris Hough
05/09/12 – 06:50
That was 1150/1151 – and they were joined by some 1962 Atlanteans and the infamous ECW/PD2s.
David Oldfield
05/09/12 – 06:51
And after that, the two of them left Yorkshire for good, ending up with KMB in Hong Kong. They were rebodied with MetSec bodywork, and ended their days in a scrapyard, in the Chinese version of Barnsley!
Dave Careless
05/09/12 – 08:35
PRV and Roe both seemed to take a liking to those rather obvious ventilation extractors on the upper deck around this period – the fact that they weren’t more widely adopted might hint at their usefulness. To me, for some reason (familiarity perhaps?), two fog/spot lights have never looked right on a half-cab: I can only think of AEC fitting two fogs/spots, but did Leyland? – I’m sure I’ve never seen a Daimler or Guy with two. Whatever, to me this bus has a brutal purposefulness about it – a classic in terms of both design and livery.
Philip Rushworth
05/09/12 – 08:36
It’s only my opinion, but my vote for the best looking half cabs ever would go to the Park Royals of about the mid to late 50’s. Southdown had them, Newcastle had both high and low bridge versions on AEC Regent V chassis, Northern General Group had them on Guy Arab IV’s, and a later batch of PD2’s with rear doors. To be fair the Leeds Roe bodied Regent V’s were also a handsome beast, but I prefer the PR’s
Ronnie Hoye
05/09/12 – 08:37
Can you give us any details please, David, of how and when BET ‘asked’ PRV to alter their design and construction?
Roy Burke
06/09/12 – 06:48
Sorry, Ronnie, but my vote always goes to Roe. I will agree with you after that – and don’t forget the COMS Regents with similar PRV bodies. Roy. Regret that I cannot give documentary details – I do not own the book that contained the information. (It was a paperback about significant prototypes vehicles.) Briefly: Crossley were allocated the task of developing the Bridgemaster and they were also producing a clone of Ronnie’s favourite PRV body at the time. Apart from being extremely attractive, it had, I believe aluminium construction – like the Routemaster. ACV were anxious to attract BET orders, but BET wanted a simple steel-framed construction with single skinned domes – in other words an Orion clone. This was around 1958, when Crossley finally closed down, and production moved to PRV in London. This resulted in the dreadful box-like front-end design of the Bridgemaster (even though initially the rear dome was the same as “standard”) and the same single skinned interior panels (again like early lightweight Orions). I believe there is also passing reference in “The Blue Triangle” (Alan Townsin).
David Oldfield
06/09/12 – 07:19
With respect to the intake of the 1964/56 series of AEC Regent V/Park Royal vehicles I can add a little information on their purchase. From the early sixties, Sheffield Transport Dept favoured the rear engined double decker, giving up to 78 seats. The general Manager C.T Humpidge, the successor to R.C.Moore from 1961, did favour the traditional front engine design. When the Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee needed replacement vehicles, Mr Humpidge suggested that the AEC Regent/PRV version would be a cheaper option than the Atlantean or Fleetline.
Keith Beeden
07/09/12 – 07:33
Whilst I agree with David about the aesthetics and quality of traditional Roe body work, I do come down on the side of Ronnie in respect of the Park Royal double deck design of the mid 1950s. The PRV bodied Guy Arab IVs of Southdown – the body style with the deeper windows than the East Kent contemporaries – were, to my eye, the most handsome front engined ‘deckers of all time.
Roger Cox
07/09/12 – 07:34
Mention of C.T.Humpidge reminded me that after retiring from Sheffield Corporation he became The Reverend C.T.Humpidge. There cannot be many bus managers that have done that.
Philip Carlton
07/09/12 – 07:34
Philip’s “brutal purposefulness” description is very good because it really homes in on how Park Royal’s Orion clone differs from the Orion itself. Here’s an Orion for comparison www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ The front tapers inwards in both an upward and forward direction (something that was taken to horrible extremes on tin-front Leylands), and in this case, though not always, is less perpendicular. Not nearly as brutal, is it?
Peter Williamson
08/09/12 – 07:11
Couldn’t agree more, Peter.
David Oldfield
08/09/12 – 07:12
Mr. J.P. Senior, former General Manager at Burnley, Colne and Nelson, then Assistant GM at Ribble became vicar of Heddon-on-the-Wall, Northumberland.
Eric Bawden
08/09/12 – 07:12
I’ve just discovered that the Park Royal site www.prv.org.uk/ has recently been updated with a large number of images, which are worth taking a look at. Many of them are rear-end views, which is very useful given the variety of rear domes that Park Royal used during this period, which tended to either accentuate or mitigate the box-on-wheels effect.
Peter Williamson
08/09/12 – 07:14
It is the front end perpendicularity (assuming there is such a word!) that I always found distasteful – whether on these, Bridgemasters or indeed front entrance Lodekkas (plus, of course, the original housebrick style Atlanteans). They all looked ungainly, as though they were about to trip over their front wheels and fall flat on their faces in the road! I’ll also earn some flak by saying that I liked the Orion, especially exposed radiator types. Well, having gone so far I may as well wreck what remaining credibility I have by saying I also liked the shape of the Leyland National – though I fully understand its innumerable mechanical shortcomings. Both it and the Orion dared to look like honest to goodness buses instead of space-age adaptations.
Stephen Ford
08/09/12 – 07:15
Philip, pictured elsewhere on this site is a 1959 Roe bodied PD3 Tin front, that also has two fog/spots. I certainly cant remember any other half cabs with more than one, even the twin headlight Green Line RMC’s only had one fog, so it may well be that the practice of fitting two was unique to Sheffield. However, since about 1982 I think, current legislation only allows front fog/spot lights to be fitted in pairs
Ronnie Hoye
09/09/12 – 07:32
The industrial smogs down the Sheffield river valleys could be pretty thick: to get people home in the evening perhaps you needed one for the kerb and one for the white line- or for the conductor walking down the middle of the road!
Joe
09/09/12 – 07:33
I’ve had a look round some of my photos to see whether two foglamps was unusual on half-cabs and I’ve noticed four trends: No foglights – quite a lot of operators didn’t fit foglights at all. Most of the South Wales operators come into that category, but so do Manchester and Salford. One foglight – some operators had a single foglight and didn’t modify the buses. Halifax is an example of this. Rhondda’s Regent Vs had a single one to the end although I did find one that had none. Later fitment of second foglight – Oldham’s tin-front PD2s and exposed-radiator PD3s originally only had a single foglight but were later modified with a second one. The PD3s were so done at their 7-year CoF in 1971. Always two – some operators always had two, or fitted the second at an early date. Southdown’s Queen Marys had two. Stockport’s fleet of PD2s and PD3s all had two, from the 1958 Crossley-bodied examples onwards. South Yorkshire is another surprising example – even their Bond-bodied PD2s had two. Rotherham’s 1965 Daimler CVG6s had two as well.
David Beilby
12/09/12 – 06:58
I recall these Regents at the small Bridge Street bus station, working services 91/98 to Grenoside as stated, also the 73 and 80 to High Green. They were the last front-engined buses in the Sheffield fleets. The reference to smog reminds me that some operators had “fog on route” on their blinds. Oldham and Manchester were two, maybe others.
Geoff Kerr
23/11/12 – 16:04
The sound these wonderful buses made was my all-time favourite- with the possible exception of the Bristol RE.These were Sheffield’s only semi-automatic Regents and sounded very different to the other Regents in the fleet. 3150/1, as they were numbered after 1968, were the C fleet pair mentioned above. They were, I understand, bought for the 85 to Gainsborough, but by the time I reached Sheffield in 1969 they were used on city services such as the 150/151 to Shiregreen. This pair had overhead luggage racks downstairs! Hebble, who by January 1970 were in absolutely desperate straits vehicle-wise, grabbed them eagerly when the C fleet passed into NBC ownership on 1 Jan 1970.
Phil Drake
23/11/12 – 16:54
I seem to remember that the parcel racks in 1150/1 were of netting rather than having a solid base, quite unusual for a double decker.
Ian Wild
05/12/12 – 07:28
I always found the second B fleet batch slightly superior to the initial one at this time of year. Those 1368-1377 368-377HWE had fan heaters which didn’t stop when the bus did.
On the subject of Sheffields Half cab fog lights, I only ever remember the 31 forward entrance AEC half cabs having twin fog lamps in their service days, all other half cabs would have just a nearside one. It was only when the PD3’s in particular were relegated to the ancillary fleet that the second offside ones appeared. With the exception of the initial Alexander bodied Atlantean 369 all other Sheffield buses received after 1960 would all have twin fog lights A shot of of ex-Sheffield PD3 909 on SCT61 when 23 with Stevensons fleet still only had the nearside one. The pre-service shot of 461 at Crossgates only had the one.
Andrew
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
23/12/12 – 17:05
To pick up on Phil’s contribution (23/XI/12) 1150-1/3150-1 were purchased for service 85 Sheffield-Retford-Gainsborough but, according to Alan Hinton’s Omnibus Society pamphlet about this route “neither racks nor vehicles were popular . . . and they rarely reached Retford [sic]”. Partial double-decking of the route had started on 25/VIII/58, those through journeys which were double decked (the frequency was hourly between Sheffield-Retford, but only two-hourly between Retford Gainsborough) required a change to a single-decker at Retford. Initially PD2/Roe 1156-61 were allocated, being fitted with high-backed seats and platform doors. Then around 1960 it appears that “some Roe-bodied AEC Regent Vs from the B fleet were tried . . . but like most AECs they were not popular on this route” – why? In 1962 Leyland Atlantean/Weymann 1163-65 were purchased for the service, having high-backed seats and a “special upper-deck [sic] luggage compartment to accommodate . . . fishing baskets” (why on the upper deck? – to minimise smells??). In 1966 A-fleet Leyland Atlantean/Neepsend of the batch 348-60 took over double-deck operations – presumably C-fleet vehicles worked “A” services to balance the mileage. Until 17/III/68 the service was operated by Townhead Street garage and an outstation at the EMMS garage in Retford: on that date Townhead Street garage closed and Greenland Road garage assumed responsibility for workings using the 1962 C-fleet Atlanteans, now renumbered 3163-5. Single-deck operations were, from 1960, entrusted to the Burlingham and Weymann Fanfare bodied Leyland Leopards, but latterly became the preserve of A-fleet AEC/PRV Swifts – some of which had their seating capacity reduced to provide extra luggage accommodation for the role. Alan Hilton’s pamphlet really is a most fascinating history of this route.
