Maidstone & District Motor Services Ltd 1965 AEC Reliance 2U3RA Harrington Grenadier C47F
Comparing the various body styles available in the sixties amongst my photos I decided that my all time favourite had to be the Harrington Grenadier. This Maidstone & District example with it’s superb livery which complemented the sleek elegant lines of the bodywork was as near perfection as was possible, this particular vehicle was numerically M&D’s last Grenadier and also their last AEC Reliance and was still numbered C72 under the old alpha/numeric system when I took the photo in the late sixties. They were good to look at, good to ride on and an absolute delight to drive what more could you ask.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
07/06/13 – 05:54
Following on from the Sheffield Regent III/Weymann, another form of bliss and perfection. Apart from the beauty and elegance of the coachwork and the thoroughbred 2U3RA chassis we have M & D. Apart from the superb livery itself, why did M & D vehicles always gleam – and other operators could make their vehicles look shabby at an early age. Care and pride certainly – but that cannot be all.
David Oldfield
07/06/13 – 07:59
Used to regularly see these vehicles up close at Victoria Coach Station and DD and DO are totally correct in what they say – these and other M&D vehicles stood out amongst the multitude of operators and liveries. The rear wheel trims used widely in the fleet and the proportions and shades of the colours used always seemed to fit their vehicles well and, yes, they were always clean. Under NBC standards slipped and by the time I went to live in Crowborough in the mid 1980s the fleet was nothing to write home about, especially during the invasion of the Mercedes bread vans. The final M&D colour scheme prior to the privatised company losing its identity was a return to the standards of the 1960s but that soon went under the bland uniformity of Arriva.
Phil Blinkhorn
07/06/13 – 11:34
As a number of you know already, my ‘formative years’ were spent in the Lancaster area. Ribble had Harringtons – Cavaliers – of both 30 and 36 foot lengths. I’m not sure why, but I always had the idea that the 36 group looked too long. Looking at this beauty, I think I know why. The Ribble ones had the red stripe under the windows. Here, the relevant area is cream, and it looks a lot better! Thanks for posting, Dave.
Pete Davies
08/06/13 – 08:03
Taking up David’s point about gleaming vehicles. Before pride became a dirty word, NGT group vehicles were all hand painted, and finished off with a coat of clear varnish. I cant speak for other depots, but coaches at Percy Main were never subjected to the rigors of the mechanical wash, so they were always immaculately turned out, perhaps M&D did the same
Ronnie Hoye
08/06/13 – 08:04
I can’t help but agree with the previous comments regarding the Harrington Cavalier and Grenadier coach bodies. They were indeed graceful-looking beasts and must surely rank as one of the great British design classics. They suited the elegant spa town of Harrogate very well, when either gracing the front of The Old Swan Hotel on Swan Road (Southdown Leyland), or on occasions the Hotel St George on Ripon Road (Greenslades AEC). If luck was in, smart Northern General (AEC) and East Yorkshire (Leyland) examples could also be seen travelling through the town. The Maidstone & District livery suited them admirably, and the backdrop in your photo Diesel Dave, looks ‘just right’ as well, and thank you for posting it.
Brendan Smith
08/06/13 – 08:04
36-foot Cavaliers looked over-long because they had too many small windows, which is precisely why the Grenadier was introduced. Plaxton similarly built multi-windowed 36-foot Embassies for only one season (mainly for Wallace Arnold) before doubling the window size. I may have said this here before, but it is worth noting that the Harrington Grenadier was the final flourish of the British curvy-coach tradition that began in the mid-1930s. After that, everything was straight-waisted.
Peter Williamson
08/06/13 – 17:51
Hopefully before anyone else spots my mistake I must point out that C72 was probably not M&D’s last Reliance although definitely their last Reliance coach, it was delivered in November ’66 as was a batch of Marshall D/P bodied Reliances No’s SC 73-82 all of which had higher chassis numbers.
Diesel Dave
03/05/14 – 08:51
Looking splendid in their original green and cream livery these two 30′ M & D Harrington Cavaliers were on display at Detling Showground April 2014. They are the two survivors from the batch delivered in 1962, 25 & 28 TKR on an AEC Reliance chassis.
Peter Jewell
06/02/15 – 06:24
I worked for the Maidstone & District motor services during the early 1960`s from Tunbridge Wells depot, primarily as an OMB where we had to operate the entrance doors. Occasionally we got hold of a “main key” shift which entailed driving a double decker on the longer routes to Brighton, Hastings, Ashford or Gravesend. All of the vehicles concerned IE Leyland PD2s, AEC Regents were fitted with rear doors operated from the drivers cab and the rear platform with the driver primarily responsible. The only complaints from the conductor were if the driver forgot to close the doors when pulling away from a stop.
Reg Stubbs
13/02/15 – 06:15
I was for a few years a conductor and then a driver working For M & D at Gravesend depot from 1969. I am amazed that three vehicles associated with this depot from my time have survived into preservation, including 4025 or C25 in its original guise. This was a superb vehicle to drive and many a happy time was had going to Brighton or Ramsgate in this vehicle. The coach that tended to be allocated to me at Gravesend was a Grenadier and one of the six longer (37.5ft) coaches; and the only one allocated to Gravesend. I can agree they were superb looking vehicles and a treat to drive
Am I in a minority, or was the Weymann Fanfare one of the most handsome coach bodies ever built? Whatever chassis they were on they looked exactly what they were, well designed, well built and comfortable. To me they fell into the same category as the first Burlingham Seagulls, nothing flash, brash or arrogant, just a quiet understated elegance, and any subsequent ‘improvements’ usually took the edge off something that was right in the first place. The Northern General Transport group had 16 in total, all delivered in 1955: 197 to 202 are from the Wakefields fleet; Outwardly they all looked pretty much the same, but the six Wakefields versions, FT 8997/9002, 197/202, were C41F on an AEC MU3RV chassis, they were mainly used for private hires, day tours and excursions. By contrast, the 10 Northern ECN 680/9, 1680/9; were C37F on a Guy Arab UF chassis with Gardner 6HLW engines, initially they were used primarily for extended tours and continental work, hence the smaller seating capacity. Both types were reliable workhorses and lasted well, I think the last ones were withdrawn in 1971. When not being used for tours the Guy’s were frequently to be found earning their keep on the express services from Newcastle to Liverpool or Blackpool. This was the pre motorway era, and the route to Liverpool in particular involved a long hard slog over the Pennine’s, so they didn’t exactly have an easy life. Percy Main did not have any express routes, but at busy times Wakefields coaches with P/M crews, could often be found displaying ‘on hire to Northern’ stickers, and working Northern express routes as duplicates. The AEC’s were certainly not underpowered, and if anything they were a bit livelier than the Guy’s on the flat, but once you hit the hills, it wasn’t long before the Guy would show you a clean pair of heels.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
23/06/13 – 08:39
Yes, Ronnie, you may very well be in a minority, but you are most certainly not alone. The only question to me is which of the four designs was the most elegant: this one, the Harrington Cavalier, the early Seagull, or the one Leyland produced for the Royal Tiger. One model railway forum of which I am a member has regular polls on different topics: I wonder!!!!!!!
Pete Davies
23/06/13 – 09:31
Well, as you know, Ronnie, I’m a Seagull, Fanfare AND Dalesman fan.
North Western took the prototype which had been exhibited at the 1954 Commercial Motor Show with a long rectangular destination panel next to a three track number indicator in the same panel as the vehicle above. Later vehicles had the indicators removed to the roof line. I agree that from most aspects the body was was a handsome. well designed and well built. My only gripe would be the heavy rear corner pillars which, combined with the curve to the roof line, from the rear made the vehicle look very round shouldered.
Phil Blinkhorn
23/06/13 – 17:21
I’m another Fanfare fan, and especially of the Northern General Guys, which were my absolute favourite coaches on the Liverpool service.
Peter Williamson
25/06/13 – 07:42
Ronnie, I must also add my name to the list of ‘Fanfare Fans’. Your comments about their appearance are spot on, and as a youngster I always felt privileged on seeing one glide through Harrogate on express work. They always looked very smart in Northern’s fine cream and rich red livery, and I can see one now in my mind’s eye, circumnavigating the floral roundabout from Station Parade onto tree-lined Victoria Avenue, and then off into in the summer sun. Wonderful. In those far off days, to my young eyes the Fanfare was one of those coaches that was not only beautiful to look at, but exuded a sort of ‘cuddliness’ with its curves. Another one in that class was the Burlingham Seagull, closely followed by the Bristol LS coach, with its bewhiskered Bristol-ECW badge on the front. Some modern bus and coach designs do try to look friendly with their ‘smiley’ frontal styling, but this just looks like an ‘add-on’ somehow. The Fanfare looked the part and did it without even trying.
Brendan Smith
25/06/13 – 11:51
I liked the Fanfare too, but the rear end was dreadfully old fashioned for a design introduced in 1954 – and compare it to the contemporary Duple Elizabethan which would have won hands down on looks. Duple, of course, only made the Elizabethan for two years before replacing it with the first version of the Britannia (and its centre-entrance sister the Brittanic), which to my eyes were simply dreadful. I much preferred the later versions of the Britannia built from 1959-62. Plaxton designs in the early years of Fanfare production were also fairly abysmal, especially the front entrance version of the Consort, and Harrington’s Wayfarer III/IV were an acquired taste – the front dome just looked wrong compared to the rest of it. And as for Yeates’ Europa and the later Burlingham Seagulls, the word “abominations” seems appropriate! I may be eccentric (is there any doubt?) but my own favourites in coach design between 1951 and 1958 are:- 1) The original centre entrance Burlingham Seagull 2) The Whitson Grand Prix 3) The Bellhouse Hartwell Landmaster (especially the ones with the breast shaped headlight fairings!) 4) The Windover Kingsway 5) The ACB Coronation Land Cruiser I’d also give an honourable mention to the Trans-United Brabazon (as supplied to Yelloway on Regal IV and Royal Tiger chassis) As for the Harrington Cavalier, although an attractive design in 1960, it was rapidly overtaken by the stunning good looks of the (30ft long versions) of the Panorama model produced from 1961-64. Longer versions of this design had a distinct droop at the rear end which spoiled the effect. When we’ve finished talking about underfloor engined coach designs, who would agree with me that Gurney Nutting’s fully-fronted Mertonian design on half-cab style chassis was impressive? I’ve also seen it described as monstrous!
Also, just a quick comment to Phil – the Fanfare prototype supplied to North Western (FDB 570) was actually delivered to NWRCC with the standard Fanfare blind display (as above) and was modified to show a separate route number at a later stage. North Western also modified the blind apertures on their 1958 Harrington Wayfarer IVs to suit standard blinds.
Neville Mercer
25/06/13 – 17:00
Very rare I disagree with Neville but I don’t think the Windovers gelled and the Bellhouse Hartwell was spoiled by the protuberances. Couldn’t agree more about Plaxton. The half-cab/full-front design was classic followed by years of “Oh gawd, what have they done now!?” Along with SUT (of blessed and bitter memory) I was a huge Plaxton fan in the period 1960 – 1982. [They then lost the plot in the Paramount years and the quality dropped to that of Duple just before their demise in 1989. They say the new ones have regained the quality: time will tell.] Question for our esteemed expert (Neville). Don’t you think the Trans United Brabazon was a rip off of the Landmaster?
David Oldfield
25/06/13 – 17:01
Another Fanfare fan here too Ronnie! I loved the Sheffield ones and for me the addition of a route indicator was not detrimental. These were used on the routes into the Derbyshire Peak District and one’s destination arrived all too soon if you were on one of these! However – my twelve points go to the Seagull, of which I rode the SUT classics, Ten points to the Fanfare, My eight points to the Grenadier / Crusader with Grey Cars being prime examples for me, and, like David O, the Dalesman would be next. Of the Duple designs, top contender is the “butterfly” front.
Les Dickinson
26/06/13 – 06:00
I can understand your dislike of the Kingsway, David. It had a certain “Marmite” quality to it. To me the design brings back memories of my first visit to Scarborough in the early 1960s where I marvelled at the rear-entrance examples operated by EYMS and YTC. I was heavily into sci-fi at the time, and something about the Kingsway shouted “the future was here….and now it’s gone”, a bit like TSR2 if you remember that aircraft! The Landmaster, on the other hand, I’ll defend to the death. Mixed martial arts? On the front-engined front, I think that most of us would agree with Les about the butterfly front Super Vega of the 1956-58 variety. A genuine classic and much better than the final two versions which (to me) always looked as if they’d been eating too many pies.
Neville Mercer
26/06/13 – 06:00
Some things just seem to look right regardless, the Fanfare being a classic example, but obviously some liveries look better than others, and what looks good to some is hideous to others. Keep it plain and simple seems to be the secret. Just for fun and in no particular order, here is my selection for 50’s mid 60’s classics. The following are all on an under floor chassis, The original centre entrance Burlingham Seagull ECW as per Bristol LS or Leyland LUT ‘United coach livery for preference’ Weymann Fanfare Harrington Cavalier Roe Dalesman All Leyland Royal Tiger Duple Roadmaster and the pre ‘Y’ type Alexander used by many of the Scottish operators, I believe North Western also had a few of them. As for front engine chassis? Duple Butterfly front, and a strange one perhaps, the beadle rebodies used by many BET group companies
Ronnie Hoye
26/06/13 – 06:00
Neville, if your taste in coach body-work is mirrored by your taste in ladies then you must have dated some real rough specimens in your time! But, can we take it that Mrs Mercer had/has “Bellhouse Hartwell Landmaster” attributes? My favourites? 1) Harrington Cavalier; 2) Harrington Grenadier with Cavalier front panels; 3) Harrington Grenadier; 4) any other possible combination of Grenadier/Cavalier bits I may not currently recall/know about; 5) the last real ECW coach body of the early 1970s; 6) the B51(?) ECW DP body of the late 1980s – can this sneak in as a coach? (didn’t some of them have single piece doors anyway? which would class them as a coach in my opinion); 7) that Willowbrook “cut-price Plaxton/Duple” DP effort of the same period – the one that no NBC subsidiary seemed to want, but which to me seemed to have an elegant simplicity and authenticity about it! Mrs Rushworth? alas in the last ten years gone from Cavalier to Yeates Riviera – but don’t tell her I said that!
Philip Rushworth
26/06/13 – 11:46
Gentlemen, I know that even the mention of Midland Red has many of you running to the barricades, but I would like to nominate their C5 motorway coach. Considering the prototype came out in 1958, it was a mould-breaker which set the standard for high-speed coaching. No doubt many will consider them to be little more than dual-purpose buses but, for me, so were the all-Leylands and Duple Roadmasters.
Paul Haywood
26/06/13 – 11:47
Phillip, I suspect that you were bottle-fed as a baby! And are you really saying that all of your favourite coaches pre-1970 were Cavalier/Grenadier variants? I notice that you don’t list any Crusader or Legionaire models although these had many similarities to the blessed Cavalier. Speaking of which, why has nobody produced a decent 1/50 or 1/76 scale Cavalier? EFE’s version was done on the cheap and it shows – it’s inaccurate for almost every operator except Yelloway because of the lack of front-dome roof-lights. And on the Yelloway version they screwed things up by the completely inaccurate destination and “via” blinds. It’s still hard to believe that somebody at EFE thought that “Rhyl” was spelled that way! If EFE weren’t so reluctant to admit their many glaring errors (and to get better “experts” to check their final artwork), they might have made amends by re-releasing their 119xx casting in Yelloway livery but showing accurate blinds for the Torquay or London routes. And as for their “Grenadier” model so much is wrong with it that it’s little better than a toy.
Neville Mercer
26/06/13 – 11:47
The Fanfare was as many have said an attractive understated coach The basic design was spoilt when Weymann added a barrel windscreen and dubbed it the Castilian
Chris Hough
27/06/13 – 07:06
Neville, perhaps I’m more forgiving, but – looking at the display cases above my desk – I’m just glad that in the last 25(?) years I’ve been able to build up a collection of ready-built models from LAD-cabbed Albion trucks to safari-wrapped EYMS Wrights . . . although I do agree that some of the errors have been unforgiveable – “West Yorkshire” on the back of OOCs/EFEs(?) OB and the wrong colour red on OOCs Huddersfield CVG (and on . . . and on . . . until we get to the white tween-decks band on EFE’s Bradford RT!). Pre-70 coach-wise I’ve done some thinking: Alexander produced a nice design, of which Barton took some; Y-type with a single door (Premier Travel, Venture, Eastern Scottish,); ECW produced functional products – but not that MW body with the stepped waist-rail, and the first RE body was behind its time (Lodekka grille on a coach?) when first released. Perhaps I was a bit tight Neville, but I’m not going to budge any further. And yes, bottle feeding was the rage in the 1960s.
Philip Rushworth
28/06/13 – 06:20
I must agree, it certainly is a handsome coach. We had at least 1 in Sheffield,(reg ???? WB) although it may have been a Leyland. Again used on the 8&9 routes I used at the time. I am not familiar with some of the other styles mentioned, but imagine it stood alongside what other buses would look like, in the mid 50s,in Sheffield, it must have been the best looking by far.
Andy Fisher
28/06/13 – 06:22
I worked for Boddys Bridlington from 1967 who had a fleet of older coaches for seasonal use as well as the modern fleet we had some Fanfares FDB 570, AHD 820, NCY 624,PWN 64,PWN 65,
Ken Wragg
28/06/13 – 14:18
Philip, I quite agree with all the model errors you list, and – like you – I’m pleased to live in a world where there’s a wider variety of model buses on offer than a Routemaster and an Atlantean with imaginary bodywork! But that can’t let EFE off the hook when they make really basic errors that any die-cast equivalent of a proof-reader should have spotted a mile away. They do, after all, boast about the accuracy of their models, which entitles us to whinge when they get it seriously wrong. Especially given that they’re the ones making money and we’re the ones spending it! Incidentally has everyone noticed that Oxford Die-cast are planning to release a Fanfare in 1/76? I’m still waiting to see how accurate the colours are on their Ribble all-Leyland Royal Tiger coach given the seriously wrong shades shown in their current image on line. The second release of the Royal Tiger (Southdown) seems to have the same front dome as the Ribble one, whereas in reality the two versions were totally different. But I live in hope of some decent coach models. Can somebody prod OOC into releasing more of their excellent Mk 1 Seagull? Speaking of the Seagull, a slightly late reply to David because I missed the original comment on first reading (senile?). I can see what you mean about the TU Brabazon being derivative, but it seems to me like a handsome mix of BH (the front end, minus appendages) and Burlingham (the side view aft of the cab). I imagine that all of these Lancashire coachbuilders kept a close eye on each other’s designs.
Neville Mercer
01/07/13 – 07:33
Just so that people know what David O and I are referring to, here is a Yelloway example of the Trans-United Brabazon. (photographer unknown – print via GMTS Archive)
Neville Mercer
01/11/13 – 07:54
One AEC Reliance 470 that ! have fond memories of is 1632 NO. It was new to Frank Harris of Grays with a Duple body. Following an RTA, it was rebodied in 1962 with a Harrington Cavalier C43F body. The Coach firm from Bugbrooke Northamptonshire who provided the Coaches I went to school on acquired it in (I think) late 1974. The Harrington standard seats are the most comfortable that I have EVER sat on. It was a smashing vehicle to ride on. It is a crying shame that this lovely Coach is now in that great coach park in the sky.
Potteries Motor Traction 1964 AEC Reliance 2U3RA Duple C49F
Potteries Motor Traction took delivery of six of these fantastic vehicles in 1964 they had the AEC 590 engine and 6 speed ZF manual gearbox. Drivers and passengers loved them, 4989 VT won the 1964 Brighton coach rally. I have not driven a coach before or since as good as these splendid vehicles. The company got rid of these vehicles in 1976 the older drivers like myself still talk about them now, there was nothing like driving down the third lane of the M6 motorway at about 75MPH which at that time was legal. Oh happy days.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
11/08/13 – 08:31
Brings back happy memories of Sheffield United Tours and Cyril (C G) Littlewood with their ZF Reliances roaring in and out of Pond Street to and from the north of Scotland, the south of England and continental venues as far away as Switzerland, Italy and Yugoslavia. As Michael says, fantastic vehicles – to ride in and to drive,
David Oldfield
14/08/13 – 11:17
Back in 1965-67 I used to do a regular monthly trip through PMT land, usually starting off with a ride from Manchester to Leek on North Western’s X1 (operated by the previous year’s Y-types, quickly relegated from the X5 to London). After a visit to Berresfords in Cheddleton I’d carry on to Hanley to see what was new with the independents there and then return to Manchester on PMT’s afternoon X2 departure. On one occasion this was operated by this very machine which made a pleasant change – PMT were in the habit of throwing any old rubbish at this route with lowbridge Atlanteans quite common at busy times. You never realised how uncomfortable these were until you’d spent two hours on one!
Neville Mercer
31/10/13 – 07:16
I remember 4989 VT, as I sometimes travelled to School on it when it was operated by a firm from Bugbrooke Northamptonshire. They sold it in around 1975. I believe it is in that great Coach park in the sky now more’s the pity. The regular driver said it was good for 90 mph on the motorway. No Tachographs or Speed Limiters in them days!
Stemax1960
01/11/13 – 08:12
Overheating was a problem with these six coaches when driven for long periods in 6th gear such as on motorway work. Some had 6th gear blanked off which had the consequence of lowering the top speed but ensuring reasonable fan revolutions. Fleet number C991 had a tandem radiator fitted, from memory as an AEC initiative to overcome the problem. Whilst I can remember the fitment, I can’t recall the result! Too many years ago. I assume that SUT and other Operators had the same problem?
Ian Wild
01/11/13 – 13:51
I remember a journey from Great Yarmouth to Sheffield in August 1968. Part of the route was on the A1 around Newark, fast, even in those days. We were “going like stink” with our C reg, SUT, 2U3RA Reliance (with AH590) – 356-365 batch. Suddenly we were doing about 30mph – for quite some time. Later, when I questioned the driver, he said she was overheating so he slowed up to give her a chance to cool down. SUT put an experimental air scoop under the grille of B reg 349 – from 346-355 – but this was not entirely successful and was subsequently removed. As I have said before, the wet-liner AH590 – and its problems – lost AEC a lot of friends. Others like SUT and Yelloway persevered and the AH691 and AH760 repaid their persistence. Heavyweight ZF Reliances were thoroughbreds which were a delight to drive and to ride in. The AH590 let the side down.
Western Welsh Omnibus 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RA Willowbrook DP41F
Delivered in 1961 to Western Welsh, WKG 284 is a dual purpose AEC Reliance with Willowbrook body. WKG 284 would last with the company until 1972 when it then passed to Gelligaer UDC. It has been restored by the RE-Liance Bus Preservation Group and was photographed from an open top vehicle arriving at the recent rally at the G & W Railway at Toddington.
Yet another beautiful restoration. With the PMT Leopard we also revisited the problems with the AEC wet-liner engines (470 and 590). What needs to be reiterated is that, especially with the 470, the engines pre-dated universal motorway usage and for all their foibles they were sufficient unto the day. AECs virtues always far outnumbered their vices.
David Oldfield
16/09/13 – 06:35
As David O says, another beautiful restoration, captured admirably by Ken. What has always puzzled me about this operator name was that I only ever saw services in south east Wales, not in the west. I see from that encyclopaedia site that there were operations in Tenby and parts of the West Country in the early days. I suppose they were hived off in the interests of “rationalisation”.
Pete Davies
16/09/13 – 09:15
The “Western” in the company’s name refers to the Great Western Railway who were a major shareholder and contributed their existing services to the Combined operation. The same logic applied to the naming of Southern National (part owned by the Southern Railway), Southern Vectis (ditto), and Western National, plus of course Eastern National where LNER were a major owner.
Neville Mercer
16/09/13 – 13:10
In 1929, Great Western Railway bus services in South Wales were merged with those of a company called South Wales Commercial Motors. A new company, Western Welsh Omnibus Co. Ltd, was formed with a GWR share-holding. This was during the period of large-scale acquisition of bus interests by the railways.
Geoff Kerr
17/09/13 – 05:10
Thank you, Neville & Geoff!
Pete Davies
17/09/13 – 05:12
The AEC 470 engine vehicles didn’t need a motorway to show up problems, David! On service work, minor cylinder head gasket failures, not enough to affect performance, would instantly cause an air lock in the heating system with the inevitable bookings of ‘cold heaters and demisters’. Oh that the cause could be rectified as quickly as the report could be written. The horizontal 470 was the bane of many an operations engineer’s life – wonder if the vertical version was any better? I never came across one to find out.
Ian Wild
17/09/13 – 05:14
Does anybody know (or care to suggest a reason) why, when Western Welsh elected to display route numbers, they chose yellow-on-black rather than white-on-black? . . . whilst retaining white-on-black for destination blinds?
Philip Rushworth
17/09/13 – 08:55
Philip, it’s an interesting question, especially as most indicator displays are now of the dot matrix or led system, and yellow on black. Why, indeed, would Western Welsh have gone the way they did? When, roughly, did they go to this formation? For the latter half of my working life, I was dealing with bus operations in particular but other elements as well, of traffic management in Southampton. Some of that work was dealing with disabled parking bays. One of my colleagues, the signs specialist, observed one day about the need to place a white or silver stripe round some (strangely, not all) sign posts, for the benefit of folk with defective eyesight. According to the manual, for instance, a bus stop pole ‘shall’ be either black or silver. How many of other colours do you see? Quite a lot, especially if operators provide and maintain their own. Some still do! It provided a contrast. This is why many steps have an edge of different colour. One “Circular” he received mentioned the fact that, in conjunction with RNIB, it had been found yellow was an even better contrast, especially at night. A lot of people say they are waiting for “the number 62”. They don’t want any others in the range of bus services that might serve a particular part of their town. They want the “62”. Could Western Welsh have been among the first operators to realise that the yellow gives a better contrast when prospective customers are looking for a certain number? Could they, perhaps but unlikely, have been the guinea pig operator for testing blinds? No, surely not, as this firm and Red & White had by then been merged into National Welsh.
Pete Davies
17/09/13 – 16:48
The smaller AH410 revealed the same problems as its larger capacity cousin. The Aldershot and District Reliances repeatedly incurred air locks in the cooling and saloon heating system, due, in no small measure, to the failure of the seals in the wet liners. Driving one of these buses on the very busy Cove services during a wet winter night with ineffective, cold demisters was, almost literally, touch and go insofar as forward vision was concerned. That a firm the size of AEC should prove incapable of producing reliable wet liner engines suggests a significant malaise in the design department. The much smaller Dennis company managed to make trouble free wet liner engines in petrol and diesel forms from the 1930s onwards to the end of its engine production programme. The first AEC wet liner engine was the “bootlace” or A172 motor of 6.754 litres which appeared in 1935, and this design, which had had a reputation for wet liner and gasket failures throughout its life, was the basis for the postwar AEC family of wet liner engines. It now seems incredible that, in decades of development, AEC could never cure the faults.
Roger Cox
18/09/13 – 05:41
One of our Depot Engineers with quite a number of Reliance 470s on his allocation became so desperate that he acquired two of those windscreen heaters with two rubber suckers used on cars in pre-demister days. These were duly fitted one to each screen of an errant Reliance, wired in series (couldn’t get 24volt versions) in an attempt to warm the cold air being pumped out by the demister and thus provide some degree of windscreen clearing. Not a success!! (but 10/10 for innovation!) Let’s not forget that the Leyland 0.350 fitted to the Tiger Cub etc was not too successful in the head gasket department either, made worse by the use of a single cylinder head.
Classy livery and practical too. NBC had a lot to answer for!
Ian Wild
25/09/13 – 07:27
Western Welsh used yellow route numbers to denote one-man operated services.
Nigel Utting
26/09/13 – 06:40
Thanks Nigel! But I’m now going to leaf through “Glory Days: Western Welsh” and “Shades of Red, White and Grey” to see if I can find any Renowns or crew-operated Atlanteans with yellow number blinds . . . which would put paid to your idea! (Although I hope it doesn’t.)
Philip Rushworth
27/09/13 – 06:55
You probably will, Philip – although that was the original intention, in time it rolled out across the fleet. Seemed a strange way of doing things, but there we are.
Nigel Utting
03/10/15 – 03:58
Western Welsh introduced 3 digit Route numbers in 1959. The first digit identified the depot the route was primarily operated by e.g., 2XX worked by Bridgend 8xx Haverfordwest. The 24 Leyland Tiger Cubs with Park Royal B43F bodies SBO 240 to 263 Fleet Numbers 1240 to 1263 were the first fitted with destination indicators containing number roller blinds. Western Welsh used yellow route numbers from the outset. Services worked by OMO carried a black triangular flap with yellow lettering on the nearside front which could be inverted when working conventionally with a conductor.
Western Welsh’s operating territory covered the whole of South Wales and Monmouthshire with the notable exception of Swansea (South Wales transport). At its formation in 1929 the Great Western Railway services were based in Cardiganshire, Carmarthenshire, North Pembrokeshire, Neath, Abergavenny and Brecon. Those of South Wales Commercial Motors were based in Cardiff and Bridgend. Expansion into the Eastern and Western Valleys of Monmouthshire was achieved in 1933 and South Pembrokeshire as late as 1956 with the acquisition of Green’s of Haverfordwest. The only service into England was the Brecon to Hereford 730 service introduced in 1962 following closure of the Rail service and was an extension of the Brecon Hay on Wye service hitherto.
Stuart Davies
14/12/15 – 06:27
I worked as a turner at Ely garage in the seventies, and since then have wondered what the strange type of red the buses were painted was called. Anybody know? Also most of the buses had a diamond painted on their rear showing which depot they “belonged” to. Yellow was Ely, blue either Barry or Bridgend, Cross Keys black.
Ed
28/06/16 – 06:27
The colour the buses were painted in the 1970’s was National Bus Company ‘Poppy Red’. This was one of the two standardised NBC liveries (but there were exceptions) introduced from late 1972 under Chairman, Freddy (later Sir Frederick) Wood. Although these two NBC colours were actually British Standard colours and should have been the same on all vehicles, in practice, due to differing paint suppliers used by different companies there was actually some discernible difference between fleets.
Rob F
13/11/16 – 07:05
The BS Code for Poppy Red is 04 E 53
Paul Lloyd
03/11/17 – 07:35
A belated thanks to Paul Lloyd and Rob F. for their answer to my ‘What colour question’. Poppy red it is and shall be so evermore.
Ed
04/11/17 – 06:46
Well, Ed, not for evermore, because the Poppy Red usually faded into a strange and slightly odd pinky colour with the effluxion of time!
Chris Hebbron
04/11/17 – 06:47
Until it began to fade, as it very quickly did, and degenerated into “poppy orange”.
Roger Cox
05/11/17 – 07:19
Regarding the yellow route numbers, the suggestion that they were specifically intended to identify one-man-operated services seems unlikely. You have to remember that, at that time, OMO (or OPO) was being introduced gradually – very gradually, in the case of some Western Welsh depots – so that it was very unlikely that any bus would have been used solely on OMO work. Even into the mid-1970s, the unions at some depots refused to allow OMO with any vehicle with more than 45 seats; at other depots, such as Cardiff, the larger single deckers could be OMO, but there were several crew workings which also used these vehicles, particular at less busy times. Most of the early Atlanteans were rarely, if ever, used for OMO. I suspect that the better contrast of yellow against a black background would have been the reason for using yellow numerals – although it would have been more logical to use it for all of the content of the destination blinds. However, it may have been more complicated to produce – as I understand it, the traditional blinds were white linen, with black paint. Thus, at night, the lights shone through the blind – but using yellow linen might have been more complex, or more expensive. Probably the latter!
Nigel Frampton
20/11/17 – 06:46
Yes Roger Cox and Chris Hebron, you are correct, I Forgot the Post Office van syndrome. I live in North Rd. Cardiff, and very occasionally I see a Western Welsh double decker heading Northward. Usually in the evening. Laugh you may, but to see this machine trundling out of the mist, a machine which was an integral part of my young days, and, I thought, gone forever, can be a little bit scary. Is this bus known to any of you bus people? I’d like to have a close look at it. See where we ‘fitters’ used to sit in the top deck, eating our sandwiches.
Ed
22/11/17 – 07:22
Nigel Frampton and others earlier on, mentioned coloured blinds versus white lettering on a black background. Just after the war, London Transport’s Green Line services had traditional white on black blinds, with GREEN LINE added. Before long, the blinds changed to black lettering on a yellow background (minus GREEN LINE) and remained so thereafter. Of course, these services also had unique buses/livery/route number ranges/bus stop style, all of which would have helped potential passengers to use them.
Potteries Motor Traction 1955 AEC Reliance MU3RV Willowbrook B45F
Nine of these AEC Reliance MU3RV’s with Willowbrook B45F bodies had been ordered by City of Oxford Motor Services for delivery in 1955. Registered in Oxford as WJO 736-744, the last three were instead diverted to PMT which numbered them S5624-5626 and placed them in their Wells Motor Services Ltd. subsidiary fleet, painted in Wells’ green and cream livery. The Biddulph-based 20 vehicle Wells business had been acquired in 1953, and was absorbed into the main fleet in 1959, whereupon the trio of Reliances received standard PMT red and cream fleet livery. It is pictured here outside Biddulph depot on a dismal day in late 1971, probably not long before withdrawal.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
19/11/13 – 05:45
Ah, memories, memories. ‘PMT – NorWestern, Biddulph Depot’. Foreman Tommy Chell complaining regularly about the rubbish that Paddy Grimes, his opposite number at NWRCC Macclesfield Depot sent him! (Not that it prevented Tommy from having a drink with Paddy most Friday nights!) For NWRCC, Biddulph was an outstation of Macclesfield, PMT carried out the necessary maintenance on the North Western contingent. As for S5626, well very much a Biddulph machine. The trio had a sad appearance, rather high front waist with consequent shallow windscreens. One thing is certain, it wouldn’t be long before it suffered a head gasket failure!!!5626 was the last of the three to be withdrawn, in 1972 passing to Martin, (Weaverham), Dealer in December that year.
Here is a photo of S5626 in service in Biddulph on 8th March 1971, looking rather neglected. Note that the standard PMT blind display is too deep for the aperture.
Ian Wild
19/11/13 – 15:22
It seems to me to be unusual for vehicles intended for one operator to be diverted to another before entering service, and then keep their allotted registrations. My experience – admittedly limited – is generally that the booked registrations become void and are superseded by ones relevant to the new “home” territory. It is of course an entirely different story if a vehicle is passed from one operator to another after service, such as a Ribble PS2 going to Southport for further service. How wrong am I???
Pete Davies
22/11/13 – 08:01
In 1965 Bristol Omnibus received four MWs originally built for Eastern National. These were delivered to Bristol in ENOC livery with Essex registrations in the JHK-C series, before being reregistered in Bristol with BHW-C marks.
Geoff Kerr
22/11/13 – 10:02
Thanks, Geoff
Pete Davies
22/11/13 – 10:03
The vast geographical area covered by the United Automobile Services Empire contained literally dozens of registration options, but they had a policy that vehicles new to them were all registered in Darlington, and so had an HN index. On the other hand, Northern General vehicles usually had the mark of the area to which the vehicle was first allocated, so they could be either a County or local authority registration.
Ronnie Hoye
09/03/16 – 06:55
North Western’s Biddulph depot was a depot in its own right and was so from July 1936 until March 1972 when the Biddulph depot work, together with Macclesfield and Northwich depots passed to Crosville. North Western outstations were at Castleton (Derbyshire) and Warrington plus for a very short time Congleton.
John Dixon
10/03/16 – 05:02
With reference to the comments above regarding new vehicles diverted to different operators, I think it depends when the vehicle is first registered/taxed. In 1977, Trent exchanged VRs for Nationals with Northern General – the VRs had already been registered by Trent (UTO 830-7S) but had not entered service when they went to Northern General; the Nationals had not been registered by Northern General, so they were registered by Trent as VCH 473-80S. Another example is the G regd Willowbrook Atlanteans intended for Devon General – some at least were photographed at Willowbrook with Devon General fleet names, fleet numbers and Devon registration numbers in the OTT-G series; at the last minute they were diverted to Yorkshire Traction, who put them into service in Devon General livery, but with local Barnsley registrations in the RHE-G series.
Bob Gell
30/05/17 – 06:47
I remember these vehicles arriving at Well’s and that they had the name of a leasing company in Oxford painted in small letters on the lower body just behind the door.
Sheffield United Tours 1968 AEC Reliance 6U3ZR Plaxton C45F
Definitely not taken on a tour, this is PMT Stoke No1 Garage underneath the Essex bus washing machine on 19th April 1970. PMT was going through a reliability crisis and amongst other vehicles (see Birmingham 2252 elsewhere on this site) hired in some coaches from Sheffield United Tours in their very elegant red/grey livery which well suited the lines of the Panorama body. The ex Forces Humber 4×4 recovery truck known to everyone as “Daffodil” is just visible on the left of the picture. This was a bit light for towing buses and tended to be pushed around when doing so.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
19/01/14 – 08:25
A number of minor firsts here for SUT. First 6U3ZRs (AH691) as opposed to 2U3RAs (AH590). First illuminated name panels – which arguably cheapened the image. Change from blue interior (which was only for a year anyway) to autumn gold. Superb coaches, and the last in the line of Panoramas before the era of the Panorama Elite. The new era would also herald the arrival of 12m coaches but also the reappearance of medium weight 6MU3R (AH505)coaches for duties where a 40’00″ long heavyweight would be just too much.
East Kent Road Car Co Ltd 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV Beadle C32C
It’s a fine warm day on 12th July 1969 as this East Kent coach stands outside Lichfield cathedral on a private hire (assumed as it is unlikely at 12 years old to be on an extended tour). The entrance door and forward emergency exit are both open allowing a cooling breeze to pass through the coach. It looks very smart for its age with a livery and fleetname which exudes pride and quality. The dead hand of NBC corporatism had much to answer for in years to come.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
20/02/14 – 06:49
A superb photo of a superb coach. Thanks, again, Ian. It could almost be a publicity shot or the cover of a holiday brochure. As a mere Northerner, can any of our Southern experts help me out? In terms of outright quality and reputation, where did Beadle rank compared with Burlingham and Harrington, let alone Duple or Plaxton?
David Oldfield
20/02/14 – 06:50
I could be miles off the mark ‘as usual’ I know it’s centre entrance, but to me it has more than a hint of the Weymann Fanfare about it, especially around the windows. It’s certainly a handsome beast that would look good in almost any livery, even the ‘Corporate Image Brigade’ would have a job to make it look bad, but I’d bet it wouldn’t be for the want of trying.
Ronnie Hoye
20/02/14 – 09:13
Jack Davies was forced to leave Weymann under “shady circumstances” and ended up at Beadle. Shortly after, the Rochester was put on the market – a Fanfare clone.
David Oldfield
22/02/14 – 08:00
The recent posting of an East Kent Reliance reminded me of this photo taken on the A259 road across Romney Marsh in the mid sixties. It shows AFN 497B a Reliance 2MU4RA with a Duple Commander I C34F body one of a batch of ten delivered in May and June 1964 these took over the touring duties of the Reliance/Beadles. Photos of this batch of coaches seem few and far between as my admittedly limited searches have so far drawn a blank. I think that the Duple Commander body evolved with a minor hiccup in the Mk 2 with it’s overly heavy grille through the very stylish Mk 3 into the superbly elegant Commander IV of the early seventies one of the classics of the period, we all know what followed in the Dominant not bad but a definite backward step and the build quality was very suspect. The comments regarding the rich colours of the superb East Kent livery apply equally to these and all their other vehicles until that awful paintbrush wielding dead hand of the NBC corporate colour scheme struck like a plague of mediocrity.
Diesel Dave
22/02/14 – 09:24
Your critique of NBC paintwork and Duple coachwork is both poetic and true, Dave.
David Oldfield
23/02/14 – 06:47
These two coaches are a perfect example of the post war pre NBC differences between Tilling and BET Group coach fleets. Apart from vehicles acquired through takeovers, Tilling group companies had their hands tied, and other than cosmetic differences down to livery and trim, all their coach fleets were just variations on the same ECW box. Not that there was anything wrong with them, and I suspect that many BET Group companies would from time to time have opted for ECW bodies given the opportunity. However. looking at BET, the variety they had was endless, over the years BMMO and NGT had a couple of in house designs, and throughout the group virtually every coachbuilder was represented at some time or other, some even dipped a toe into the water with Bedford SB’s, Ford and Commer, but for the main part they stayed with the mid to heavyweight end of the market. Days that have sadly gone, but nostalgia is not what it used to be.
I’ve recently been to an Historic vehicle rally at Seaburn, and as usual I came back with a load of photos, some I took and others I bought. But I managed to get hold of one that has eluded me for a while, and that is a colour photo of one of Wakefields Weymann Fanfares. Isn’t that simply glorious, understated, simple, and elegant. Modern designers take note! I have posted one of these vehicles before but I think the colour shot warrants a further posting. You can view my previous posting and comments at the following link FT 9002 – 202
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
28/08/14 – 05:47
Lets raise (another) cheer for the Fanfare – or possibly a fanfare for the Fanfare? Super photo. Obviously I’m all for the original and best Reliance version but what else was on offer? Guy Arab LUF, Leyland Leopard (or Tiger Cub). You really couldn’t lose, whichever version you went for.
David Oldfield
28/08/14 – 10:35
As you will know, David, Wakefields had six on a Reliance chassis, and parent company, Northern had ten on a Guy Arab LUF with Gardner 6HLW engines. Northern specified a lower capacity 37 seat version, at first the were used on extended tour work and spent much of their time away from their home base. Off season, they were frequently to be found earning their keep on the Trans Pennine Liverpool Express route. This was pre motorway days, and any east-west route to Liverpool was a long hard slog. Mechanically, they were well up to the job, and some would argue they offered a degree of passenger comfort that has never been matched. At busy times, they were often joined by their Wakefields cousins, who, along with their Percy Main crews, were drafted in as duplicates on the route. As for longevity, in 1964, all 16 were refurbished by Plaxton, the AEC’s were withdrawn at the end of the 1968 season, and the Guy’s at the end of 1969. It’s such a pity that none seem to have survived into preservation.
Ronnie Hoye
01/09/14 – 08:45
I’ll happily raise another cheer for the Fanfare any day. I’ll not only endorse Ronnie’s comment about passenger comfort, but for the LUFs on the Tyne-Tees-Mersey express I’ll raise an extra cheer for musical entertainment!
Sadly the very last Harrington body to be built, No 3218, was this Grenadier C40F example on an AEC Reliance 2MU4RA chassis for Greenslades Tours of Exeter registration No FFJ 13D. This photo was taken on the 24th April 1966 at the British Coach Rally on Madeira Drive Brighton whilst the Concours judges were making their inspection. The elegant lines of the body and the restrained but attractive livery are even 48 years later a lesson todays designers and colour stylists might well learn lessons from, but being a cynical 75 year old I doubt it will happen.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
15/09/14 – 07:02
Can’t better Dave’s comments – and nearby were the Devon General 2U3RAs as well. I’m all for Van Hool/DAFs, Setras and Scanias but oh for a world where there were up to date, quality AECs, Bristols, Leylands and Guys with Burlingham, Harrington, (real) Plaxton, Weymann and Roe bodies sitting on them. There is no excuse for selling the family silver – having things built on the continent or in the far east because wage rates are cheaper. What about a bit of pride in our own abilities. [The Germans and the French would not let it happen!]
David Oldfield
15/09/14 – 07:03
This was indeed a very attractive livery, featuring an unusual shade of green. The designation 2MU4RA denotes a “crash” gearbox, which seemed a backward step after most Reliances had synchromesh gearboxes. The boot lid is interesting. I remember that Yelloway always specified two piece boot doors hinged from the sides to avoid people bumping their heads on the top hinged flaps more commonly used in the fifties and sixties. This design could be an attempt to avoid the problem. The Grenadier body was a development of the better known “Cavalier” and to me was even more attractive. I agree, Dave, it is so sad that Harrington ceased production of coach bodies, at a time when their products seemed to be more popular than ever.
Don McKeown
15/09/14 – 12:00
The parallel lift boot door was a Harrington patent device, more usually used for side lockers because of often restricted space in coach stations. It was obviously optional, as witness the side lockers on this example, and presumably cost more. I wonder why Plaxtons didn’t take over this patent?
Andrew Goodwin
15/09/14 – 12:00
The last sentence of Diesel Dave’s caption mirrors my thoughts precisely, and I am three years even further down “Cynical Avenue” and proud of it !!
Chris Youhill
16/09/14 – 07:57
Sadly, Chris, I am but a babe in arms – but a cynical nearly 62 year old!
David Oldfield
16/09/14 – 07:58
The Harrington Grenadier was the last coach body with a curved window line, a peculiarly British trend which began in the 1930s. There were plans for it to be replaced by a development of the Legionnaire if Harrington had stayed in business.
Peter Williamson
16/09/14 – 07:58
As Andrew says the parallel lift mechanism was indeed a Harrington patent and some coaches I drove had a plate stating that fact. Regarding the side locker doors in a larger photo they are of the parallel lift type, I think they look as if they are hinged is because they were in the locked position which was achieved by lifting as normal and then pulling the top of the panel outward presumably to prevent accidents to fitters working underneath. Similar mechanisms can be seen on modern, but foreign, coaches although electrically powered.
Potteries Motor Traction 1958 AEC Reliance 470 Willowbrook C41F
PMT had five of these coaches plus one similar acquisition on a Leyland Tiger Cub chassis from the takeover of Dawsons, Ash Bank. They suffered as always with AH470 engines with cylinder head gasket and wet liner seal failures. This is why this photo was taken adjacent to Llandrindod Wells Railway Station on a summer evening in June 1971. A similar Reliance had taken a party of Scouts on a weeks expedition to Tenby and inevitably the engine had failed in South Wales. I was summoned at short notice to take a replacement vehicle arriving at South Wales Transport Ravenhill Depot shortly before midnight. I chose the scenic route rather than the M6/M5 as I didn’t fancy becoming another engine failure casualty at the side of the Motorway. During 1971 and 1972 three of these Reliances were modified for one man operation and repainted in bus livery. The conversion included jack knife doors the motor for which would only fit in the space occupied by the nearside front passenger seat hence reducing the capacity to 39. As the vehicles were 13/14 years old by this time one wonders if it was really worth the effort. I recall 762 which was allocated to Biddulph Depot put in some quite respectable mileages as an omo saloon.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
16/11/14 – 09:44
An odd design which seems to transition from the early 1950s at the front to the late 1950s at the rear.
Phil Blinkhorn
16/11/14 – 11:21
Northern General had a batch of very similar C37F Willowbrook Viking coaches on an AEC Reliance 2MU3RV chassis, so as I understand it, they would have had the larger AH590 engine. Delivered in 1959, they were JCN 445 to 454, numbered 1845 to 1854. About 1967, it was decided to convert them for use as OPO vehicles, but the changes were far more radical. I don’t know if the conversion was carried out ‘in-house’ or whether they went back to Willowbrook to be done, but the whole front end was chopped off, and a new service front grafted on, I believe they were also up-seated to 41. Here is an example of the end result, I believe they remained in service until around 1975
Ronnie Hoye
16/11/14 – 18:03
Were the gasket/liner problems eventually cured by AEC?
Chris Hebbron
17/11/14 – 06:47
In a word, Chris – No! AEC’s involvement with wet liners began in 1935 with the introduction of the ‘6.6’ A172 engine (actually of 6.75 litres) in the lightweight Regal II. This engine proved to be decidedly troublesome, and the wet liner problems were carried through into its postwar ranges developed from about 1953. In the end, AEC reverted to dry liners in the AV/AH 505/691/760 engines. By contrast, Dennis employed wet liners in its ‘Big 4’ petrol and O4/O6 diesels from the mid 1930s onwards, and all were generally free of the troubles that plagued the AEC efforts.
Roger Cox
17/11/14 – 06:47
2MU3RV was still the AH470, Ronnie – 2U3RA was the AH590. Both of these had wet liners and gasket head problems. The AH691 and AH760 were new dry liner engines which did not have the same problems. Sadly the reputation was tarnished and many did not return to AEC. Also, like the later Leyland Panther, others persevered and overcame the problems.
David Oldfield
17/11/14 – 09:51
Thx, Roger. It’s amazing, from what you say, that folk continued to buy AEC’s with these engines, if they were so troublesome, although I admit that post-war distress purchasing would retain undeserved loyalty to a large extent. Were LTE’s engines of this type? I’ve never heard of problems with those Incidentally, did AEC/Leyland ever offer ‘outside’ engine options at ordering stage, such as Gardner? I’ve never heard of any, but who knows? David O, strange that, following on with gasket/wet liner problems, which existed for decades, AEC cured Crossley’s engine breathing problem within months!
Chris Hebbron
17/11/14 – 11:37
The AV (vertical) engines never suffered to the same extent as the horizontal AH engines and substantially LTE had no problems with RMs (once the teething problems were ironed out) – including the AV590. Neither did Sheffield with its Regent Vs and Bridgemasters. [In passing, the AV version of the AH691 was actually a wet-liner and really an “out-boring” of the AV590.] It is surprising that they carried on so long before they eventually reverted to dry-liners – and as I said lost friends along the way. Those who stayed were rewarded by the AH691/760. AEC were not alone in having problems with putting an engine on its side. I am a “fan” of the O.600/O.680 – but this was not without its problems either – as Stephen Barber has alluded to in his Wallace Arnold Books. Conversely, there was enough faith in the later AEC engines to offer them, initially, as an option, in Series 2 REs and VRTs. The famous Werner Heubeck at Citybus who force BL to continue the RE for Northern Ireland was known to be very interested in an AH691 RE but BL back out at the last minute and cancelled the option – much to Heubeck’s anger. [Something similar is thought to have happened with the VRT – when someone showed interest, the option was withdrawn.] As for Gardners, there were the famous Rochdale D2RAG Regent Vs and the less famous Glasgow and Aberdeen D2RVG Regent Vs.
David Oldfield
17/11/14 – 16:50
Huddersfield JOC took delivery of 16 Regent’s and 37 Regal’s with 6LW engines between 1935 and 1939.
Eric Bawden
17/11/14 – 17:19
Forgot those, Eric. Crossley engines were another, and simpler, matter. AEC basically knew the problem – Crossley refused to pay royalties to Saurer and so mangle the design of the piston/cylinder head to make it different. AEC simply came up with a design which solved the problem without infringing the rights of Saurer. [I’m not an engineer, so I cannot elucidate.]
David Oldfield
18/11/14 – 06:23
As I have always understood it, the bored out 11.3 litre version of the AEC AV590 wet liner engine was the AV690, which was introduced at the same time in 1958. It was most commonly employed in commercial vehicle models such as the Mammoth Major V and in many export PSV’s, but was optional in the 2D version of the Regent V, and in horizontal AH690 form in the 2U and 4U larger Reliances, though it was not differentiated in the model designation. The AV/AH691 was the 11.3 litre dry liner engine which was announced in late 1964 at the same time as its smaller equivalent the AV/AH505. The AV691 was then offered as an option in the Regent V and Renown, models, which were then designated Regent 691 (prefixed 3D) and Renown 691 (prefixed 4B) though none of the latter were built.
John Stringer
18/11/14 – 06:23
David, the wet liner 11.3 litre was the AV/AH 690. The 691 was a dry liner in vertical and horizontal formats. Even the switch to dry liners did not resolve AEC’s engine reputation. The AV/AH 505 in particular soon revealed weaknesses in service. A cover plate was fitted on the top of the block under the cylinder head, and this plate was held in place by a number of set screws. The inevitable expansion and contraction of this component in service caused the screws to fail, leaving a hole that allowed coolant to escape. This, if not spotted and remedied, could result in a seized engine. The design defects were progressively eliminated, but AEC’s reputation as an engine builder was not enhanced.
Roger Cox
18/11/14 – 06:24
Ronnie – that’s a proper bus conversion done by Northern, however as they were done in 1967 they would operate for quite a few years to get the money back. We only started conversions in 1971 and as I said, perhaps a bit late in the day – but don’t forget PMT had the largest fleet of Roadliners in the world and anything had to be tried to mitigate the chronic unreliability.
Ian Wild
18/11/14 – 06:25
Chris, for a short period in 1956/7 the AEC Regent V was offered with the option of a Gardner 5LW or 6LW engine. There were only three takers; Glasgow and Dundee Corporations bought examples with vacuum brakes and spring operated preselector gearboxes (model D2RV6G,) and Rochdale Corporation had examples with air brakes and air operated preselector or semi-automatic gearboxes, model D2RA6G. The Rochdale examples were described in my article on this site.
Don McKeown
18/11/14 – 10:19
The prototype Crossley HOE7 engine design came about when the firm’s engine designer, W.C. Worrall was diagnosed with tuberculosis prior to the outbreak of WW2. He was sent to Switzerland to recuperate, and, whilst there, visited the Saurer factory, where he himself had once worked. Saurer gave him permission to use the company’s advanced four valve head and toroidal piston cavity in his new engine design. Shortly after Worral’s return to Britain, war broke out, limiting Crossley’s commercial options, but three prototype engines were constructed with combustion chamber detailed design being made by Leslie Bennett, a mathematician and combustion specialist. Thus Crossley had done all the right things and succeeded in a designing a powerful and reliable unit. Then, as the new SD/DD42 chassis production began to get under way in 1944, Saurer, entirely reasonably, asked for a royalty or licence payment in recognition of the fact that the Swiss company’s patents were employed in the head design. The exact details of the fees involved have since been buried in the passage of time (probably deliberately). The Crossley MD, Arthur Hubble was having none of this, and refused to comply, instead ordering that the cylinder head of the new engine be redesigned completely to avoid any payment to Saurer. The new head had two valves per cylinder instead of four, and the toroidal piston cavity was reshaped with sharp concentric ridges, the (misplaced) theory being that these would improve the swirl effect. The new head was married up with the original block intended for the Saurer type head, and the result was a motor strangulated by hopelessly contorted airflows. In addition, poor coolant circulation led to overheating and high back pressure in the crankcase. This ill advised redesign ended the involvement of Saurer, but left Crossley with a exceptionally poor engine. When AEC took control of Crossley, it lost patience with Gorton’s refusal to attend to the cylinder head deficiencies and undertook remedial design itself. It is an overstatement to suggest that AEC simply solved the problems with the Crossley engine. The downdraught cylinder head was not a cheap conversion, and, although it did improve the airflow characteristics and reliability issues to a very great extent, the HOE7 could never be turned into a truly good motor. What baffles me somewhat is the fact that Dennis used a four valve head and toroidal piston cavity in its O4 and O6 diesels, yet no payment was ever made to Saurer. Presumably the Dennis design differed sufficiently to escape the Saurer patents.
Roger Cox
18/11/14 – 15:50
Aberdeen Corporation did have five Gardner engined AEC Regent V’s with Crossley bodies (205 – 209). In 1959 they purchased five AEC Regent V’s with AEC engines and Alexander bodies (271-275). By 1963, they also had been fitted with Gardner 6LW engines. I seem to recall that Maidstone and District also converted some coaches in the same manner as that done by Northern General.
Stephen Bloomfield
19/11/14 – 05:57
Stephen, I think the Maidstone vehicles you refer to had Harrington bodies but the end result was quite similar.
Ian Wild
24/11/14 – 17:03
On the subject of seized AEC Reliance engines I Drove for Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury in the late 1970s. Due to a vehicle shortage one weekend a AEC Reliance/Plaxton was hired from Kirby Coach dealers of Sheffield. Returning from Blackpool on the Saturday night the engine seized up on the M62. Rather then owning up to this, a visit was made to a scrappers at Barnsley and a similar engine was obtained and shoe horned in. I dare say no one was ever the wiser.
