Black & White Motorways 1964 AEC Reliance 2MU4RA Harrington Grenadier C41F
This batch of five coaches seems to be rarely photographed despite their superb appearance enhanced once again by a beautifully simple livery on the most elegant of bodies. Delivered in May 1964 they were AEC Reliance 2MU4RA chassis with Harrington Grenadier C41F coachwork, fleet No’s were A247-A251, the photo was taken on Marine Parade Eastbourne probably in the summer of 1965. My impression was that Black and White operated very few extended tours or other excursion work instead concentrating on their extensive express service network, perhaps someone can confirm or contradict me on that point.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
29/06/16 – 16:14
I am not sure about extended tours but I think that Black and White did have a day excursion programme- how big the catchment area was I do not know. Given the peak requirements on Summer Saturdays, a source of midweek revenue was desirable. The only company I can think of with an express commitment pattern like Black and White (Yelloway) did have a substantial day excursion traffic with a huge catchment area.
Malcolm Hirst
11/07/16 – 07:30
Black and White did handle quite a lot of excursion work as Malcolm states. Sometimes the official definition of ‘Excursions and Tours’ as used by the Traffic Commissioners etc was over embracing in many cases as operators may have run excursions but may not have run extended tours. In Kevin Lane’s book ‘Glory Days – Black and White’ there is the odd reference to ‘tour’ work (in the context of ‘not excursion’ work like these passages: In addition to its work for Associated Motorways, Black & White was very active in the field of tours and excursions, which is how it all started out. An eight day luxury tour was also offered to North Wales and Snowdonia. ‘he best – usually the newest – vehicles were used for tour work, which required the hiring of vehicles from other operators to fulfil Associated Motorways commitments. A pool of drivers employed on tour work was established based on seniority – a highly prized position. There are numerous references to ‘tours’ to the Cotswolds, Forest of Dean etc which I think were references to day excursions but that is just my interpretation.
Premier Travel (Cambridge) 1959 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Burlingham Seagull C41F
The final Mk. VII incarnation of the classic Burlingham Seagull coach body is generally considered by most to be something of a travesty, compared to the earlier versions. With its squared off side panel and slight nod towards tail fins – becoming popular at the time on cars – and longer and fewer side windows attempting to vie with Plaxton’s first Panoramas, it just didn’t work and soon afterwards a complete redesign resulted in the introduction of the Seagull 70 which seemed to some degree to be inspired by the ‘new classic’ – the Harrington Cavalier. 85 UME had been new to Valliant of London W5 in 1959 but had later passed with others to Premier Travel, along with similar examples from Yelloway, joining a further one which Premier had bought new and resulting in probably the largest number of Mk. VII’s in any one fleet. It is seen here on an enthusiasts’ tour in 1971.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
30/06/16 – 06:38
John, I agree absolutely with your comments about this final version of the classic Seagull design but strangely the angle of the photograph in your posting makes this one look really rather nice. I’m intrigued though, about those dividing strips in the side windows, it seems very odd to have panoramic windows and then divide them into smaller panes.
Chris Barker
30/06/16 – 08:05
The Seagull never seemed to look right without the centre sliding door. It was fundamental to the original design and the later front entrance versions always seemed to me to be something of a ‘lash-up’.
Philip Halstead
01/07/16 – 06:14
I’ve never seen a picture of this one when it was new, but I suspect that the window dividers were a later addition. Quite a few of the Seagull Mk VII bodies needed remedial work as Burlingham’s designers had been rather optimistic about the load-bearing strength of the original window pillars! As far as I know this was never a problem with the Plaxton Panorama of the late 1950s (or any of its successors), but the problem did re-occur at the Blackpool factory – by then Duple (Northern) – in the 1960s with the original Viceroy. Several of those rolled on to their backs resulting in window pillar collapse and crushed passengers.
Neville Mercer
01/07/16 – 06:15
The stenghtheners between the window pillars seem to run inside the glazing, and my guess is they were put in at recertification as the Mk VII had a reputation for flexibility…
Stephen Allcroft
01/07/16 – 06:16
Strangely, despite editing the photo for submission, I’d failed to notice those dividing strips. I’m going to have to search for a photo showing it (or similar ones) with Valliant to see if they were built like that, or whether it was a Premier Travel modification. I agree, Philip, that the original centre-entrance version was by far the the best looking, but I think the front-entrance Mk.IV’s and V’s still looked pretty decent too. I think the worst looking Seagulls were the Mk.VI with flat windscreens and little bus-type windows (though they were undoubtedly a more practical proposition from Ribble’s point of view), and the downright ugly 1959 season model for the Bedford SB.
John Stringer
01/07/16 – 16:18
Setting aside the possible involvement of the Safety Elf or his predecessors, could it be that the centre-door version was more “coach” as used by one’s local holiday tours firm, and the front/forward entrance one was more “express bus” as used by North Western, Ribble, etc?
Pete Davies
04/07/16 – 15:58
Here is a picture of 86 UME without the strengthening in the middle of the windows (at least on the offside): www.sct61.org.uk/
Neath & Cardiff coaches were affectionately known as ‘Brown Bombers’ and they certainly made short work of demolishing the miles along the M4. This AEC Reliance (2MU3RA083) carries a handsome Harrington C41F body (2309) and was new to Neath & Cardiff in 1960. I am not sure if this striking (for me) livery would eventually give way to the uninspiring NBC livery. After eventual withdrawal by the NBC she still had a varied career until being brought back to the Swansea Bus Museum, on whose 2016 Running Day in original Neath & Cardiff livery we see her.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
16/09/16 – 17:13
N&C were taken over by South Wales before the corporate identity was introduced.
Stephen Allcroft
06/10/17 – 07:43
Used to love seeing these at Cardiff Bus Station (RIP) in the sixties. But surely they weren’t doing many miles on the M4 when first delivered?
Gerry
20/01/18 – 06:07
In the days when N&C were operational, the M4 motorway terminated at Tredegar Park at the western edge of Newport. The only motorway west of there was the elevated section of the M48 at Port Talbot. I don’t recall N&C operating along this elevated section. By the time that the motorway network expanded into Wales, N&C operations had been subsumed into those of South Wales Transport and Western Welsh
Frank Potter
12/05/20 – 07:04
My Dad drove the N and C buses when they were owned by Sir Godfrey Llewelyn until they were nationalised and absorbed in to Western Welsh. They were affectionally known then as the ‘Chocolate’ buses. This was in the end of war mid 1940’s
Maidstone & District 1958 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Harrington B42F
By the mid 1950s, bus patronage was beginning to show signs of serious decline, and the Traffic Commissioners were empowered to grant dispensation for the use of buses with more than the traditional 20/26/30 seats on (what was then called) OMO operation. The first large saloons bought by Maidstone & District specifically for OMO were eleven Harrington Contenders of 1955 powered by the distinctive TS3 two stroke engine. Then, having gained experience with the all conquering AEC Reliance on coach duties, this chassis became the firm M&D choice from 1957 for OMO saloon work. Initially, the selected bodywork supplier was Weymann, then Beadle, before Harrington was chosen to build the bodies on a batch of twenty five in 1958. Here is 251 BKM, SO251 in the M&D fleet, seen in July 1973 after disposal to the dealer, Trevor Wilcox Brown, the proprietor of Tillingbourne Bus Company. This Reliance, a 2MU3RV model fitted with a Harrington B42F body, was never operated by Tillingbourne, but was quickly sold on to another dealer in Middlewich. I undertook the delivery run from Gomshall to Middlewich, and was impressed by the alacrity with which the machine tackled the hills around Amersham – I always skirted round to the west of the Great Wen – though the top speed was understandably rather modest on the motorway. The picture shows the bus somewhere around the Chipperfield area in Hertfordshire (if my high mileage memory is still functioning). En route on the motorway, I was somewhat disconcerted to find that the accelerator ceased to return to shut down the engine speed, so I pulled in at the next service area and investigated. By lifting up the inspection flaps in the floor, I established that the return action was provided by a simple coil spring linking the throttle rod to a lug on the chassis. The locating loop on one end of this spring had just snapped off, mercifully leaving the remaining part hanging down. I scoured the ground around the lorry park to see what I could find to effect a rudimentary repair and was rewarded by the discovery of a length of rigid but pliable wire. This I managed to force between the last two coils of the broken end of the spring, bent it round to secure it, and then made a loop with the other end before fatiguing off the surplus length (all done with the fingers – I had no tools with me). That bit of Heath Robinson engineering got me safely and uneventfully on to my Middlewich destination.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
17/10/16 – 07:26
Smart, purposeful looking bus. Perhaps the Middlewich dealer sold it on to an unsuspecting operator, who may have run it with your rudimentary bit of wire doing its job, for many years, Roger!
Peter Murnaghan
17/10/16 – 09:10
A member of this batch, 255 BKM, was sold to Clynnog and Trefor Motoer Services in North Wales, where it lasted for many years.
Don McKeown
18/10/16 – 08:00
253 BKM was saved for preservation in 2008 after festering in Somerset for many years. Now safely stored inside “somewhere in Sussex” pending restoration.
Malcolm Boyland
Reference vehicle S2 this was delivered to Tonbridge depot along with S3-4 and 5, All four from new as we already had S1 also from new. I think that it was probably because the M&D were using the idea of new buses would encourage us drivers to accept larger vehicles on one man operation. They were right because we were also the first depot in the fleet to accept the use of double deckers on o.m.o. work. If my memory serves me correctly these were Bristols. I was a driver at Tonbridge from 1961 until the closure of the depot. then transferred to Borough Green and then Tunbridge Wells until the mid nineties when I had to retire due to ill health.
Barton Transport 1960 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Alexander C41F
The independent Barton company became very satisfied customers of the AEC Reliance, taking its first one early in 1955. In subsequent years many more entered service, Alexander and Plaxton bodywork being favoured. Here is one of a batch of five 2MU3RV coaches with Alexander C41F bodywork delivered in May/June 1960. 839 EVO is seen in the summer of 1961 in London on Elizabeth Bridge, which straddles the main Southern railway line just south of Victoria Station. The present day transformation of the somewhat neglected building immediately behind the coach, notwithstanding the fact that it sits directly alongside a cutting carrying trains into the second busiest railway terminal in Britain (Waterloo is No.1) is evidence of the “gentrification” of much of our capital city – (Oh for the old days).
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
02/12/16 – 07:17
This type of Alexander body was widely used by Scottish companies, and were a common sight in the likes of Carlisle ‘Western’ and Newcastle ‘SMT’, but unlike the later ‘Y’ types, they weren’t embraced by many operators south of the border. That said, they weren’t a million miles away from the Park Royal bodies of the time. Was there a link?
Ronnie Hoye
02/12/16 – 16:03
Barton also had a number of Leyland Tiger Cubs with this style of body. I think they were designated dual-purpose, but it was rather stretching the meaning of the term. The seating standard was at the extreme “bus” end of DP. They were used quite a lot on the 15 Ilkeston – Long Eaton – Sawley route. The Reliances were very much more coach style. I remember seeing them on the Nottingham – Warsaw service that ran for a few years in the 1960s. Strangely (most of?) the Reliance “coaches” had route number/destination indicators above the rear windows, whereas none of the Tiger Cub “DP/buses” had them.
Stephen Ford
02/12/16 – 16:49
Ronnie, The PRV link with this body was indirect in that both this and the PRV ‘Royalist’ coach on Reliance were inspired by alloy-framed ECW and Scottish Aviation bodies of a couple years earlier. This style was first fitted to four pre-production Tiger Cub Coaches in late 1952. The first Royalist was on a Reliance for Birch Brothers in 1954. Also in 1954 SOL and Alexander took PRV bodied AEC Monocoaches and from 1955-57 had Monocoaches Reliances and Tiger Cubs with Alexander bodies to the same outline, after that they took a body with this frontal treatment but a straight waist. Meanwhile Barton and Western SMT took this style until 1960. PRV and Alexander both moved from Aluminium to Steel frames for their bodies at the turn of the decade to get BET orders, both built 30ft bodies to BET outline, and Alexander also combined this front with 31ft bodies for the Alexander companies and North Western in 1961 and 36ft Leopards in 1962 for North Western.
Stephen Allcroft
03/12/16 – 07:01
I took a rear end photo of a 1961 Barton Plaxton Panorama coach at Chilwell in September that had a destination box like Stephen F mentions. www.ipernity.com
David Slater
11/05/17 – 06:42
Roger, do you know what would become of the five Alexander bodied Reliances? Were any of them ever sold to Ireland?
Bill Headley
11/05/17 – 19:15
I am sorry, Bill, but I have not been able to ascertain the later lives of these Alexander bodied Reliances, but OBP has some remarkably informed contributors, so hopefully some information will turn up.
Roger Cox
12/05/17 – 06:55
Stephen (Ford) – I’m intrigued to know more about the Nottingham to Warsaw service, which you say operated for a time in the 60’s! That, if true, might be more useful today!
David J Smith
12/05/17 – 10:41
Think you will find Midlands-Warsaw services are running regularly just operated by Polish operators.
Roger Burdett
13/05/17 – 07:16
Actually Roger my sense of humour was asserting itself there and I was being flippant. I think Stephen’s spellchecker had run ahead of him, as they do, way when possibly he meant the Nottingham to WORKSOP service, unless it was really true in the 1960’s, can’t see why though………!
David J Smith
13/05/17 – 07:17
I think that Polish-operated services run in and out of many UK towns and cities nowadays. There is a weekly one to/from Gloucester to Warsaw and I’ve come across several Brits who’ve used the service for a break there. These services seem to be run by the large Polish coach company, Sindbad
Chris Hebbron
13/05/17 – 07:36
Hello David, I found this snippet from “Commercial Motor” dates 12 April 1963 : “Nottingham-Warsaw Bus Service Ends An express bus service from Nottingham to Warsaw has been discontinued because so few Poles can afford the £28 return fare to their homeland. The single-decker bus made the 2,000 mile round trip for the first time last August. The journey took two days from Nottingham to Harwich, through Holland and Germany to Warsaw. But now Barton Transport Ltd., Chilwell, Notts, says the demand for the tickets is not sufficient to make the service Pay. Mr. Carl Barton, a director and traffic manager, said: “The Polish people showed great interest – Until it came to booking seats”.
Stephen Ford
13/05/17 – 09:53
Stephen, Re the Nottingham to Warsaw service of 1963. That’s brilliant of you to reply and come up with the goods. There’s nothing new under the sun is there? Who would have thought 50 years ago that services from many UK cities to Poland would be a commonplace thing in the Noughties!
David J Smith
13/05/17 – 16:00
There was a fair concentration of Poles in and around Nottingham (including at least one who was a conductor and, I believe, later an inspector with Bartons.) Many were former airmen who came over during the war to continue the fight. I suspect that the difficulty was not so much the £28 return fare as all the other add-ons and hassle. A return transit visa for East Germany was around another £5, and I’m not sure how welcome “pre-war Poles” were by the authorities in post-war Communist Poland. And no, I’m pretty sure Barton didn’t have Worksop on their destination blinds. Nottingham – Worksop was a long-standing Trent (80)/East Midland (37) joint route, and any such ideas from Barton would have been taken to a Traffic Commissioners’ hearing and strangled at birth!
Stephen Ford
14/05/17 – 07:30
The Alexander body single deckers and others of the 1960s at Bartons were often fitted with secondhand recovered high back coach seats when the bus was new then changed to second hand but recovered service bus seats after about 2 years, Later this was stopped,,the Alexander bodys were very sound and did not look dated ,, I started in 1961 and worked there until the awfull trent takeover of 89,most of my time there was running repairs and breakdowns/recovery and sometimes emergency PSV driving and also overtime private hire and service bus driving ,,trent engeneering director seen me with my drivers uniform on and said you won’t be driving under trent,I said I know thankfully you made me redundant,
Mr Anon
14/05/17 – 07:30
According to Alan Oxley’s history of Barton (part 3), the first (and only) round trip of service X60 (Nottingham – Warsaw) left Nottingham on Sunday 5 August 1962, at 1pm, taking as Stephen says, two days to reach Warsaw. It returned the following Saturday, arriving back in Nottingham on the Monday.I understand prolonged delays at Eastern Bloc countries were a significant factor in the service not running again, it was the time of the Cold War and the Cuban missile crisis after all. Two newly delivered Yeates bodied Reliances were used,49 seater 949 (949 MRR) from Nottingham to Harwich, and 945(945 MRR) from the Hook of Holland to Warsaw. 945 had been reduced to a 36 seater fitted with reclining seats, a toilet compartment and electric razor sockets (!). I can confirm 949 was used on the English leg, as I was at Huntingdon St to see it off – somewhere I have a photo of it prior to departure. Shortly after the round trip, 945 was reseated and the toilet removed. Every time I see a Sinbad coach in Nottingham, it reminds me of this Barton innovation.
In reply to Bill Headley’s query above, according to the Circle fleet histories of Barton, none of this batch went to Ireland; however, there was a similar batch which entered service in 1959, 808-13(808-13CAL).Of these, 809 is given to Dodd, (dealer) Dromara 5/72, later to Lafferty, Glengad 4/73 and to unidentified farmer, Togher by 5/79. 811 is given to Dodds (dealer) Dromara 5/72, nothing further recorded.
Bob Gell
04/10/17 – 07:13
Thanks for this information Bob. I suspect the vehicle was destroyed in the summer of 1972 in the Derrybeg Estate, Newry – which is not very far away from Dromara. It was possibly owned by the local GAA and 811 CAL would seem to fit the frame as being the vehicle shown.
Bill Headley
09/09/18 – 06:15
The driver on Loline 861 (X42) was Harry Bell his wife was a conductor operating from Chilwell garage. I drove the last Switzerland tour I think it was in 1978 But not sure ?
Paul Annison
12/09/18 – 05:38
As well as the airmen there were a large number of ex-miners from Poland from all 3 armed services who settled in the UK, many employed in the mines here. As an ex-paperboy I remember delivering several copies of the “Polish Daily ( including Soldiers Daily)” on my paper round and one of my friends was the son of a Polish soldier, who was married to a Russian lady who at one time was in Ravensbruck concentration camp. I thought it all very exotic ( especially his rather delightful elder sister whom I worshipped from afar…..). I think the main problem visiting was not financial. The ex-military types were very unwelcome, and I think the authorities were somewhat afraid of contamination, particularly in the aftermath of the Hungarian uprising. There might have been some reluctance too in view of a fear of retaliation for being resident on the wrong side of the iron curtain.
Aldershot & District Traction Co 1954 AEC Reliance MU3RV Metro-Cammell B40F
MOR 581 is an AEC Reliance MU3RV. The chassis of this Aldershot & District vehicle dates from 1954, but the body we see (“MCW” in the PSVC listings) was fitted in 1967. The seating is of the B40F layout, and we see it in the Alton Rally on 18 July 2010. One unfortunate feature of the Alton Rally and Fleetwood Tram Sunday is that they often clash and, even with what some of my former colleagues used to call an ‘optimistic’ style of driving, even I can’t manage both in the day!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
05/12/16 – 09:36
Beautiful! I used to travel on these, and their cousins with the older style of bodywork with an opening window for the driver. One A&D feature on OPO buses was to have just a single seat on the front nearside to allow more room for passengers paying the driver, but at the time I was a regular traveller, these buses were crew-operated. My memories are of the No.19 which turned up on time every weekday morning to take me to Haslemere Station and then onto a train to Waterloo. The railway part of my journey was much less reliable until the elderly pre-war 4-CORs were replaced by 4-CIGs.
David Wragg
06/12/16 – 14:03
Does anyone know if others of the batch were given new bodies, or why this one was treated? Crash damage springs to mind . . .
Pete Davies
06/12/16 – 15:43
Pete, I seem to recall that there were quite a number of them and one bus magazine, it may have been ‘Passenger Transport’ commented that it was surprising that such a dated style was being adopted. I take their point, but I actually liked this style.
In its search for a suitable vehicle of the then new underfloor engined format, Aldershot & District initially bought a Dennis Dominant in 1951. Only three Dominant chassis were ever made, of which two were bodied, the third chassis being dis-assembled after exhibition at the 1950 Earls Court Show. Although Dennis abandoned plans for volume production of the model, there was very little wrong with the Dominant apart from its excessive weight (a characteristic shared by the the contemporary Regal IV and Royal Tiger), and Aldershot & District kept HOU 900 in front line service for fourteen years. In 1953 the company bought a solitary example of the Guy Arab LUF, which it retained in service until 1965, but purchased no more. Then, after sampling a number of different underfloor types, Aldershot & District finally took the plunge in 1954 with the AEC Reliance, twenty five being delivered with rather gawky, high floor and waistline, Strachans Everest C41C bodywork. These were registered MOR 581 to 605, numbered 250 to 274, and were used on the Farnham – London express route, and on excursions and private hire until displaced by the 1963 Park Royal bodied Reliances. These Strachans MU3RV coaches were powered by the small AH 410 engine of 6.754 litres, a direct (though updated) descendant of the A172 “bootlace” wet liner engine of the 1935 Regal II. The “bootlace” engine design became the basis for all the AEC wet liner engines from the 1950s, and therein lay the root of subsequent trouble, for the original “bootlace” became notorious for cylinder liner seal and gasket failures. No. 263, MOR 594 is shown in 1968 on route 3D (Aldershot – Cove, Minley Estate) passing the RAE in Farnborough Road. The inadequate destination blind display seen here was most unusual on A&D in those days, and indicates a degree of crew laziness in the early NBC era that would not have been tolerated in BET times. These machines were quite pleasant to drive, though given to a somewhat wallowy standard of ride, but the performance with the small AH410 engine was less than sparkling. In 1965, fifteen of these coaches were selected for rebodying with the then A&D standard Weymann saloon design, but the Weymann factory was closing down, and the order was undertaken by Metro-Cammell. The engineering standards on Aldershot & District were extremely high, and no doubt all of the initial 25 Reliances could have been so rebodied if required. Indeed, the remaining Strachans vehicles, of which No. 263 shown was one, continued in service for several more years.
After experience with the initial Strachans bodied coaches, from 1957 Aldershot & District adopted the AH 470 engined Reliance as its standard saloon type with Weymann B41F (OMO) or B43F bodies. The initial buses had opening windscreens for the driver, but the 1960 and subsequent batches incorporated fixed windscreens which had just become legal. No.390, 390 AOU was a 2MU3RV vehicle of 1961, and representative of the final style of the Weymann A&D saloon. It is seen in Queens Avenue, the technically military road that links Farnborough North Camp with Aldershot, and is wearing the revised saloon livery of 1967 with the darker green on the lower panels. It is also carrying the retrograde “simplified” fleetname style that appeared in that same year. The Metro-Cammell bodies on MOR 581 above and some new 1966/67 Reliances differed from the Weymann version in several respects – the offside emergency exit was placed at the rear instead of the centre, the front screens lacked the metal surround, and the lower front panel incorporated a small grille.
Roger Cox
07/12/16 – 06:37
This was from a batch of twenty-five 250-274, MOR 581-605 new in 1954/5 with Strachans C41C bodies. In 1965 250/2/4-7/9-62/4/9/70/2/3 were delicensed and the bodies removed. The chassis were rebuilt and were rebodied with MCW B40F bodies, renumbered 543-557 respectively, and entered service in 1967. They were to the same design as 283-312, RCG 601-630, which had been new in 1957. Prior to 1966 bodies were built by Weymann at Addlestone and by Metro-Cammell in Birmingham but after the Weymann works closed at the end of 1965 all subsequent bodies were built by Metro-Cammell-Weymann.
John Kaye
07/12/16 – 13:33
Many thanks for your further thoughts on the history of this vehicle and her sisters.
Pete Davies
07/12/16 – 16:34
I can remember seeing the AEC Reliance chassis parked in the Guildford garage all painted in bright silver paint, I assume they were waiting to be sent for rebodying. I was a passenger on an A & D Loline 111 service 20 travelling from Aldershot to Woodbridge road Guildford to attend technical college.
John Shrubb
10/12/16 – 17:28
I’ve been thinking (I do occasionally!) and I suspect that the fifteen Strachans Reliances selected for rebodying might well have been chosen on the basis of body condition, the better ones being retained as they were. Certainly those that kept their Strachans C41C bodies continued in service for several years after 1965.
For me the classic Burlingham Seagull remains as stylish and attractive as it did when I saw my first Sheffield United Tours examples. This one, Reliance MU3RV294, Burlingham 5855, was new to Anderton of Keighley in January 1955 and was snapped by John C Gillham at the Clacton Coach Rally.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
24/04/17 – 07:20
The design and appearance of the Seagull can, I think, be justifiably be described as immortal.
Chris Youhill
25/04/17 – 07:21
Shaped a bit like a teardrop… but more refined….
Mike..009
27/04/17 – 14:56
OWT 940 was sold to Victoria Coaches of Wakefield and was exported to Malta in 1970, probably as a chassis only. It received a coach body built by Debono and was in the coach fleet as registration number 2573 by December 1970, later being re-registered to Y-0871. By July 1987 it had been downgraded to bus work as Y-0767 as B45F, losing its glass rooflights and gaining green livery. It later received yellow bus livery and was re-registered to FBY 767. In this form it worked until 2011, when the interesting Malta Bus fleet was swept away in the name of progress. Thus it worked hard until it was 56 years old, a tribute to AEC.
Dave Farrier
28/04/17 – 17:16
At one time the Maltese route bus vehicles only worked on alternate days, so perhaps this lovely old lady has a semi-retirement in the sun.
David Wragg
04/05/17 – 06:40
I was very interested to see the photo of the Anderton’s AEC. I grew up in Anderton’s home town (Keighley) and they were a well-known local coach business, always smartly turned out in pale blue and cream. I obviously wasn’t observant enough, because I don’t recall this vehicle. Anderton’s seemed to trade in at regular intervals, usually purchasing lighter modern coaches such as the Vega, etc. Sadly they sold out, I think in the early 80s, to Bowen’s and they were closed down.
Hebble Motor Services 1965 AEC Reliance 2MU4RA Park Royal DP39F
Photographed late on a summer day in 1966 at Stump Cross, a location very well known to our regular contributor and esteemed authority on Halifax matters, John Stringer, is AEC Reliance BJX 134C, No.134 in the fleet of Hebble Motor Services. The bodywork is by Park Royal, seated as DP39F, and the vehicle is seen in typically rugged terrain en route from Halifax to Cleckheaton. Those days of pre political correctness are reflected in the legend “One Man Operation” displayed in the destination box. This Reliance was the last of a batch of four, BJX 131-134, Nos. 131-134 delivered to Hebble in July/August 1965. The National Bus company took control of the BET bus empire in 1968, and, in the following year, management of Hebble (together with Yorkshire Woollen) passed to West Riding at Wakefield. The subsequent reallocation of services between these companies then saw Hebble expand to twice its BET size, but in 1971 the situation was turned entirely on its head when (to the delight of a certain Geoffrey Hilditch) NBC passed the Hebble business over to the Halifax Joint Omnibus Committee. Of the four Reliances 131-134 (renumbered 666-669 by Hebble in 1970) only the last (shown pictured above) entered the Halifax JOC fleet as No.320 in March 1971, when the bodywork configuration had become B43F, though whether this was inherited as such or was a JOC conversion I know not. I am sure our OBP experts will supply the answer. The 2MU4RA version of the Reliance had the AH470 engine coupled with the Thornycroft six speed constant mesh gearbox which demanded proper respect in use (I drove the Aldershot & District examples so I speak from experience). As far as I can establish, 320 would then have been the only constant mesh gearbox bus in the Halifax fleet since the expulsion of the last Nimbus, a type that was almost (I loved ‘em and drove them at every opportunity) universally detested by the driving staff. I bet 320 was not popular to say the least. A truly comprehensive and lively discussion about the final years of the Hebble company may be found on OBP at this link.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
26/06/17 – 07:24
Interesting looking lorry passing in the opposite direction. The square stepped wheel arch reminds me of a Guy Warrior. Can anybody identify it?
David Hargraves
27/06/17 – 07:04
Thank’s Roger, I’ve never been esteemed before ! The problems you suggest may have occurred at Halifax with the arrival of 134 (latterly 669 under the YWD-based scheme) into a synchromesh and semi-automatic fleet did not happen. Towards the end of 134’s time with Hebble one of their Plaxton Panorama-bodied Reliance coaches with synchromesh gearbox (either 20 or 21) suffered a gearbox failure in the Cheltenham area whilst working an outbound journey on the South West Clipper. A changeover (presumably by Black & White) was provided – not exactly a unique occurrence – to continue the rest of the journey to Paignton but no assistance was forthcoming regarding a repair (probably because it was happening too often). Consequently a Hebble mechanic and apprentice were instructed to grab the first Reliance that returned to depot, remove its gearbox, shoot off down to Cheltenham with it in the service van (a very hard worked vehicle) and swap the boxes over in time for their coach to change over the loaned coach on its way back. They then returned to Halifax with the defective box and it was duly ‘repaired’ (probably after a fashion). Then being in a constant state of vehicle shortage there was no time to bother getting the right boxes back into the right vehicles, so 134 received the repaired synchromesh box and retained it for the rest of its days, the coach retaining the constant mesh one.
As a result BJX 134C arrived at Halifax JOC (as 320) thus equipped, being no different to their other Reliances. Due to the strange Hebble trim layout it received a most unusual interpretation of the Halifax DP livery, starting out like a DP at the front and ending up in service bus livery at the rear. Here it is seen entering St. James Road prior to turning into the Cross Field Bus Station, Halifax sometime in late 1971. Please forgive the dreadfully out-of-focus shot but it is the only one I ever took of it in this livery.
Not long afterwards it was refurbished as a service bus with bus seating, its racks and luggage boot removed and repainted into normal bus livery. It passed into WYPTE ownership in 1974 becoming 3320 but never received PTE livery, being sold for scrap soon afterwards. This second photo shows it passing along Towngate, Northowram in the Spring of 1973.
John Stringer
27/06/17 – 09:10
Thanks, John. I knew that you would come up with the comprehensive answers – an esteemed authority indeed. You confirm that the conversion to bus seating was a Halifax exercise. Circumstances certainly acted in the favour of this vehicle where the gearbox was concerned. I suppose that is why only this one out of of the batch of four was accepted by GGH. Had it retained its original Thornycroft box in Halifax service I am sure that the gear changes would have been heard right across the West Riding – anything with a crash/constant mesh box was an anathema to the Halifax drivers.
Turning to David’s enquiry, I can see the resemblance to the Guy front end, but nothing I can find matches it exactly. Pantechnicons were often built closely to operators’ requirements so you could well be right. I will send a closer view if the front end to Peter to help with identification.
Roger Cox
05/07/17 – 06:25
Could the body on the pantechnicon be by Marsden/Vanplan.
Stephen Bloomfield
15/11/19 – 07:29
The lorry looks very much like one of George Pickersgills Removals, Harold Long from Henry Long Transport Bradford owned them for a while.
David MacBrayne Ltd. 1967 AEC Reliance 2U3RA Willowbrook DP49F
LUS 524E is a 1967 AEC Reliance 590 2U3RA with Willowbrook DP49F body. It was new to the legendary Scottish operator, David MacBrayne, fleet number 150. When MacBraynes ceased operation of bus services, it passed to Highland Omnibuses, being painted in that operator’s superb blue and red livery. Although the body is to the standard BET group design, it is unusual in having a one piece inward opening door, as was normal on contemporary coaches. This vehicle is preserved and is seen here at Brough, taking part in the 2016 Kirkby Stephen Running Day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
24/10/17 – 06:44
This vehicle appeared briefly in Northern Ireland as a “swap” for former Scottish Omnibuses SWS 671 which returned to Scotland. LUS resided with a church group around Gilnahirk in Belfast before returning to the mainland for preservation.
Having suffered a number of Albion Nimbuses whilst in his previous post at Great Yarmouth, Geoffrey Hilditch arrived as GM at Halifax only to find that his predecessor there had bequeathed him a batch of ten more, only recently delivered. Bought originally with the intention of operating out-of-town feeder services to and from the hilltop villages linking with double deckers on the main valley roads, the plan never really came to fruition and the Nimbuses found themselves operating through services from town to these places, as well as substituting for heavier duty single deckers on more local services. In these circumstances rather too much was perhaps expected of them and they soon began to give problems, and were generally unpopular with drivers (except Roger Cox !). Hilditch was not impressed and within two years he began to sell them off, but there was still considered to be a need for some shorter and narrower than standard single deckers to negotiate the narrow lanes and tight reversing points. He chose to repeat what he had done at Great Yarmouth and ordered some AEC Reliances with Pennine bodywork of reduced dimensions. Seven arrived for the JOC fleet in 1966 – 249-255 (ECP 949-955D) – based on the 505-engined 6MU3RA chassis. Bodies by the Seddon subsidiary Pennine Coachcraft seated 39, 252 having seats with headrests (removed from the two Nimbuses that had been fitted with them previously). 249 was even exhibited at the Commercial Vehicle Show at Earls Court in that year. They proved to be very useful on the more rural routes and were regular performers on the Heptonstall, Midgley, Booth and Mill Bank services. All passed to WYPTE Calderdale District in 1974 and were withdrawn in 1979/80. 250 was withdrawn on 31 July 1979 and sold at Central Motor Auctions the following month to Askin’s, the Carlton breaker. 251 escaped the breaker to operate for Everton Coaches of Droitwich for a while and was the subject of a sadly failed preservation attempt. 252 was exported to Malta, where it operated in a non-PSV capacity for a number of years. Here 250 is pictured in WYPTE days (1975) still in Halifax livery as it rests in Rawson Street, Halifax whilst its driver has his mealbreak in the Powell Street canteen, which was down a passageway behind Harvey’s department store on the left.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
10/11/17 – 06:53
Nice interesting buses-always seemed in a hurry and went fast!
Stuart Emmett
10/11/17 – 06:54
I recently paid a return visit to the Halifax area to see relatives who live high above Mytholmroyd on the way up to Pecket Well. After living in the flat lands around Peterborough for over 12 years I found those moorland roads, hills and twists quite challenging even in my humble Vauxhall Zafira. I have nothing but admiration for the men and machines who piloted those orange and green buses into that hinterland. Even these short and narrow Reliances must have been a tight squeeze but unlike the Nimbuses they ousted they would at least have had some power.
Philip Halstead
12/11/17 – 07:17
I remember in the 70’s when I looked after the police radio stations. I was going to one near Blackshaw Head on a quite snowy day when one of these could not make it up a steep climb and had to assist in guiding the driver reversing for almost a 1/2 mile before he could turn round. I then had to walk back to where I had left my Land Rover.
Brian Lunn
12/11/17 – 07:18
That’s an interesting point, Philip. Some may know better than me, but the Halifax/ Heptonstall bus has to use a turning circle to approach the steep hill up to the village. At the top the road narrows through the village and is cobbled, becoming for a bus a single width. Every sort of bus seems to have been used, though, and the whole thing certainly requires skill.
Joe
12/11/17 – 07:19
Philip, I now live some 10 miles down the A1 where the Black Fens abut the rolling hills of West Hunts, and I agree that there could be no greater contrast with the dramatic Calderdale skyline than the the billiard table top topography of South Holland lying to the north of Peterborough. These Pennine bodied Reliances began to appear during my last months with HPTD in the latter part of 1966, but, being earmarked for (what was then called) OMO, they were not driven by we humble office employees who covered only crew duties. On the subject of the Nimbuses (yes, John, I loved ’em) my acquaintance with them was always on the 46 route to Heptonstall, which, because of the unbelievably constricted terminal reversing point, colloquially known as “The Rathole” – even the mirrors had to be flattened against the bus sides – these little machines carried a conductor. Before the coming of the Nimbuses, I believe that the route was previously operated with Regals, and I commend those drivers struggling over the years to turn round these bigger vehicles at the Rathole. However, I can vouch that the Nimbus did not lack performance when in good order, and could scamper up the steep Heptonstall Road from Hebden Bridge every bit as effectively as the Leopards that initially superseded them when the 46 was mercifully extended onwards beyond the Rathole to follow a circular terminal working round Heptonstall – why this route could not have been adopted long before I cannot imagine, unless there was some Road Service Licence difficulty. Having resolved the terminal problem, it was logical that the 46 would become a driver only operation, but, in my day, the Booth and Midgely services, which ran common with the 46 as far as Luddenden Foot, were PD2 crew runs. It would seem that they, too, soon became OMO workings with the then new Reliances. The Nimbus certainly had mechanical weaknesses, but so did the AH505 engine in the Reliance, so troubles were certainly not over. I have long thought that the fine Reliance chassis (much superior to the Leopard) should have been fitted with the superb Dennis O6 engine – we are all allowed to dream.
Ah, the short Pennine Reliances. What do I remember? Clutch problems, snatching brakes, skidding in wet weather, the inevitable cold heaters and demisters, head gaskets (yes even on the AH505 engine). I have to bow to Roger and John who were there before me that the Nimbus was actually worse!!!!
Ian Wild
24/11/17 – 07:27
Provided all was working well I always much preferred the 505 Reliance to the heavy, clunky L1/L2 Leopards, though of course I wasn’t involved with having to maintain them. Cold heaters and demisters were a feature of most of the buses that I remember driving throughout my career (except during the summer months when some suddenly seemed to blow hot !). The dimensions of these reduced Reliances rendered them just right for the roads they were intended for. However, I would completely agree with Ian that Reliance brakes could be unpredictably and frighteningly snatchy, and that these short ones were the worst of all. Many of the routes they were used on were tightly timed and yet involved negotiating miles of narrow, steeply graded and winding country lanes with blind bends and shiny worn surfaces, along which numerous farm tractors with muddy tyres and leaking muck spreaders would have passed, and to which herds of cows would have added their messy contribution. All it needed then was for it to rain and you had a recipe for disaster. You had to be extremely careful, yet the running times often didn’t exactly encourage this. It always seemed to me that when a standard chassis had bits lopped off it to make it shorter and narrower it always upset the balance of things. Even worse than these Reliances were some Bristol LHS6L’s that WYPTE graced us with for a while. The LH was designed primarily as a 32ft x 8ft vehicle and may well have been okay in that form (can’t say – I never drove one). The LHS was a shorter version, maybe around 27ft 6in and sometimes 7ft 6in wide, but ours were as short and narrow as it was possible to make them, with seemingly just enough wheelbase to allow for the engine and transmission to fit, the front and rear overhangs cut down as far as they could go, and with small wheels. This resulted in a 24ft x 7ft 6in, 27-seater roller skate of a bus yet which had the same powerful 0400 engine, gearbox and braking system of the full sized version – seemingly unmodified – and all its weight distribution completely messed up. Those things really were the most fearsome buses I’ve ever driven – too much power for their own good, rear wheelspin, bouncing up and down on the back end and the brakes locking up, skidding and sliding. Terrible things.
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