Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport 1954 AEC Regent III Park Royal H30/26R
This photograph was taken in Summer 1969, at a very familiar location in Hull and it shows 170/2 OTV165/7 of the KHCT fleet. During 1967, KHCT acquired no less than 36 of these Park Royal bodied Regent IIIs from Nottingham City Transport, exactly half of the batch of 72 such vehicles registered OTV 127 to OTV 198 and delivered to Nottingham City Transport between June 1953 and October 1954. They were numbered 150 to 185 by Hull, but not one of them had a Hull fleet number that matched its registration! The front destinations were altered to Hull specification; the rear ones were panelled over. They were withdrawn by Hull between 1970 and 1972. One vehicle, 157 (OTV 137) then became a training vehicle, and still survives; it can usually be seen at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum, restored to its original NCT livery.
What an evocative picture, even if they are not native KHCT buses, how well the streamline livery sits on them! The location is, of course, the Coach Station in Collier Street. How lucky we were in Hull to have a coach station; instead of a mundane bus station, like other places. It was called coach station from being opened in 1935, this in spite of the fact that KHCT never owned any coaches for general service until the 1980’s! 170 has just arrived from Orchard Park via Beverley Road on the circular service 17C, whilst 172 is arriving from Willerby road on service 81. I recall OTV 137 at Sandtoft in the early 1980’s carrying the streamline livery of KHCT.
Keith Easton
15/03/12 – 09:30
I remember them new in Nottingham, where they ousted the pre-war Regents on the Bilborough, Broxtowe and Strelley services (13, 16, 16A, 30, 32, 56, 60, 62). In fact Bilborough depot’s allocation was almost entirely from this series. They also filtered onto a few other individual routes. I am pretty sure they never or rarely appeared on the Arnold group of services (10, 20, 20A, 52, 57) which retained pre-war vehicles until the arrival of the exposed radiator Regent Vs in 1955-56.
Stephen Ford
15/03/12 – 09:30
I remember these coming to Hull and causing me a lot of confusion, or at least the one that survives did. I saw it (157) and in my mind matched registration number to fleet number. I happened to go to Nottingham later that same day and was somewhat surprised to find OTV 157 running there. It was a little while after before I realised my mistake and that I hadn’t seen the same bus working for two operators on the same day!
David Beilby
15/03/12 – 12:09
In addition to these ex Nottingham buses Hull also bought ex St Helens RTs (see here) one of which BDJ 87 is preserved at the Lathalmond Museum in Saints livery. In addition Hull bought ex Newcastle Daimlers with Birmingham style bodywork (see here) and some AEC Regent IIIs also with MCW bodywork from Leicester.
Chris Hough
16/03/12 – 07:27
In addition to Nottingham selling these to Hull three of the batch went to Grimsby-Cleethorpes. I remember conducting on them and thinking they seemed pretty archaic compared to our Bridgemasters.
Philip Carlton
16/03/12 – 12:46
The Grimsby-Cleethorpes trio were OTV 159/161/163, purchased by GCT in 1967 to replace their 3 1946 RT Regents, 80-82 (JV 9900-9902). The Nottingham vehicles initially took over these three running numbers, but then became 112-114 in 1969 to release the earlier numbers for new Daimler Fleetlines.
Stephen Ford
19/03/12 – 09:24
Stephen – As you say, the OTVs were the basic allocation at Bilborough depot for most of their time in Nottm; the remainder of the batch was based at Parliament St and spent most of their time on the Beeston rota. After trolleybus conversion, they also appeared on Wells Rd routes 40 and 47 until withdrawn. I also never saw any on the Arnold (Sherwood depot) routes. Philip – I agree your comment about these appearing archaic; I have subsequently found in Alan Townsin’s TPC book on Park Royal that these vehicles had been due for delivery in 1950, hence the 5 bay bodies, half drop windows, and late 40s, early 50s style interiors, with varnished/polished wood, which were a world away from the Park Royal Regent Vs delivered in 1955/6. But at least they were 8’wide!
Bob Gell
21/04/12 – 08:39
One of the trio of OTVs sold to Grimsby Cleethorpes also survives in preservation. The bus concerned is Nottingham 161, which can be seen at the GCR Heritage Centre at Ruddington, near Nottingham. It is also restored to Nottingham’s green with cream bands livery. The original order for the buses that became the OTVs was for 112 buses, placed in 1948 for delivery from 1950. When the 72 OTVs came in 1953/54 the chassis had to be shortened to 26 feet from 27 feet (one foot removed from the rear overhang) to suit the Park Royal bodies which, at 26 feet long, were to the pre 1951 legal length for a two axle double decker. The choice of a five bay body must have been down to Nottingham as Park Royal had a four bay body for the Regent III in production from 1947 (examples supplied to Huddersfield, Morecambe and West Bridgford). The choice may have been to standardise on the half drop windows used, which were as used in the BUT 9641T trolleybuses. Another feature, also seen on the 9641T trolleybuses, was the placing of the batteries under the stairs (as with the RT) rather than in cradles on the chassis side (as with Nottingham Met-Cam and Roberts bodied Regent). The 72 vehicle were almost identical. Variations were 150 with its opening front upper deck windows and the last deliveries of 1954, which had to have a second rear lamp to meet changed legislation fitted. This was incorporated in the bottom of the grab rail positioned against the back platform window. The balance of the 112 were received as the ten SAUs and the 30 UTVs. The OTVs did certainly dominate the allocation at Bilborough Depot, which, from memory, was from about bus 156 to bus 198, until replaced by NAU and RTO Fleetlines in the middle 1960s. Bulwell also had its Roberts bodied Regents replaced by Fleetlines (RTOs) about 1964. The others were based at Parliament Street and were used on a variety of services including the Beestons, the West Bridgfords, the Sneinton Dales and the 25 and 58. From my observations Parliament Street’s share of the Arnold services were worked by PD2s, but what worked these prior to the arrival of the PD2s? Prior to the arrival of the Regent Fives Sherwood had an allocation of the Daimlers with both Brush and Roberts bodies.
Michael Elliott
21/04/12 – 11:49
Thanks Michael. I don’t actually ever remember seeing PD2s on the Arnold routes. My recollection is of wall-to-wall Regent Vs from 1956, prior to which memory says that they were operated by pre-war Regents (Metro-Cammell and Cravens). However I have seen enough photos to convince me that my memory is not infallible! – Daimler CVD6s were also used. It is also certain that the 10 was often singled out for the left-overs – utility CWA6s or second hand pre-war Halifax Regents. Also, in the early 50s, the Redhill route that became the 57 was one end of a cross-city 4/4A from Beeston, often served by 1948 Metro-Cammells. Similarly, the 3 Sneinton Dale was originally a cross-city service, starting at Radford (Addington Road) and at that time invariably pre-war Regents. Both the 3 and 4/4A were split in two, I guess, around 1952/53, Redhill becoming 57, Radford 58, and a new extension beyond the Sneinton Dale terminus of the 3 became 59. The Parliament Street OTVs were also widely used on the Trinity Square-Bestwood area services (6, 17, 18, 28) and the Gordon Road routes (9, 23, 54, 65).
Stephen Ford
01/05/12 – 07:06
Hi Stephen – The link between Beeston and Arnold dated back to April 1933 when service 4 was linked to services 10 & 20. At that time service number 4 was used for the Beeston to Nottingham part of the journey and 10 or 20 used for the journey through to Arnold. Service 10 ran via Mansfield Road past the Home Brewery to Redhill Road then via Redhill Road to the Mellors Road junction. Service 20 ran via Mansfield Road then via Nottingham Road (Arnold), Front Street, Church Street and Mellors Road to the Redhill Road junction.At this time all journeys between Beeston and Nottingham whether by via Derby Road or Castle Boulevard were service 4 until 2nd April 1944 when journeys via Castle Boulevard became 4A. When the Arnold tram service was converted to bus operation from 6 September 1936 service number 10 was used for the service between the Old Market Square and Valley Road, Sherwood. Service 20 still operated between Mellors Road but ran through to Trent Bridge via Arkwright Street. The service to Redhill Road via Mansfield Road then became the 4, running through from Beeston (via either Derby Road or Castle Blvd). The split between Beeston and Arnold took place from 25th May 1952 when the 57 was introduced between the Old Market Square and Redhill and the 4/4A became solely a service between Beeston and the Old Market Square. Through operation by service 3 between Sneinton Dale and Addington Road, Radford ceased from 12th April 1953 when service 58 was introduced between South Parade and Radford.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Hebble Motor Services 1948 AEC Regent III 9612E Roe L27/26R
I recently came across this photograph. I know very little about its history with Hebble, but it is familiar to me – after sale by Hebble, this and an identical vehicle AJX 281 were both acquired by an operator very local to me at the time, Makemson of Bulwell, Nottingham. They arrived in January 1961, and ran for a while as acquired; the Makemson livery was dark red and cream, so the Hebble colours fitted in well. They replaced an ex Ribble Leyland bodied TD7, RN 8990 and CRR 92, a 1936 AEC Regent new to West Bridgford UDC. Neither of the ex Hebble Regents lasted long with Makemson, both were withdrawn in the second half of 1962, and were sold for scrap to a local dealer/showman. Hopefully the Yorkshire based correspondents will know its earlier history, and the location of the photograph.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell
25/03/12 – 11:22
This photo just got me in the nostalgia department Bob! One of Hebble`s Regent 111s, in Chester Street Bus Station, Bradford, probably some time after 1956. It is the starting point (or was!) of the 19 service from Bradford to Bingley, via Allerton, Wilsden and Harden, a service I rode on regularly. The route was regularly served by the Weymann bodied Regal 11s of 1946, until their withdrawal c.1956. The 19 service followed BCPT Trolleybus 31 route as far as Allerton, and provided an alternative for us trolleybus enthusiasts to sample, as did the West Yorkshire route to Denholm and Keighley, which followed a similar route out of the City as far as Four Lane Ends, and thence with the 7 trolleys to Thornton and beyond. Many a time have I ridden on this bus and her sisters when visiting a well known hostelry at Wilsden, known a ” t`Ling Bob”.
John Whitaker
25/03/12 – 12:05
Nostalgia here too John – for I used to greatly admire these lovely vehicles as they occupied the stand in King Street, Leeds next to our Samuel Ledgard terminus for Horsforth, Guiseley and Ilkley. The Hebble vehicles left at 20 and 50 minutes past the hour on services 15 and 28 to Rochdale or Burnley. Can anyone today imagine the wonderful scene in King Street each weekday between 1715 and 1730 – passengers then were plentiful. Two Hebble buses (one duplicate) left at 1720, leaving room on the stand for no less than four Samuel Ledgard machines for the 1730 to Ilkley thus – 1727 to Rawdon, 1728 to Guiseley, 1729 to Ilkley, 1730 to Ilkley. Those were the days and no mistake !!
Chris Youhill
26/03/12 – 07:48
I imagine Chris that the current 508 route is the “fag end” of Hebble’s 15 and 28 services. The 508 takes over an hour to get to Halifax; do you have any old timetables which might show how long the 15 and 28 took to get to their destinations in Lancashire? And did the Burnley route go over the top via Heptonstall and the Sportsman Inn or did it go via Todmorden and Cornholme?
Dave Towers
26/03/12 – 11:02
From my June 1965 Hebble Timetable.
Route 15 left Leeds 17:20 and via Halifax 18:18 – Heptonstall Slack 18:56 – Sportsman Inn 19:15 and arriving Burley at 19:38 – 2hrs 18min later.
Route 18 Left Leeds 17:50 and via Halifax 18:45 – Ripponden 19:03 and arriving Rochdale at 19:41 – 1hr 51min later.
Peter
26/03/12 – 13:15
Yes Dave, the 508 which was instituted by the PTE, was indeed the Halifax – Leeds section (or fag end) of the Hebble services. I say “was” because in recent times service revisions appear to be endless, and the 508 has been re-routed in Leeds away from the City end of the A647 Armley Road. It now uses the A65 as far as Kirkstall and then goes via the old Leeds and Bradford Road and Farsley before rejoining the A647 at Stanningley, then as before. Thanks to Peter for the Hebble 15/28 details which I did not know – I do though just recall from King Street days that one of the displays showed intermediate points as “Dudley Hill, Halifax, Littleborough – I think !!
Chris Youhill
26/03/12 – 16:58
Thanks for the interesting replies, Peter and Chris. The 508 was re-routed when the 15 Bradford to Farsley service was withdrawn a couple of years back. It provided an extra service to Farsley (though not from Bradford centre) and the 72 frequency was increased to compensate for less buses down the A 647. A 508 leaving Leeds now at 17:35 is given 1hr 29 mins to reach Halifax. A 592 leaving Halifax is given 1hr 25 minutes to reach Burnley, so add them together and you’re just short of 3 hours – such is progress! I suppose back in 1965, whilst the vehicle would be slower, there wouldn’t be as much traffic around and if double deckers were used, the service would be crew operated. It’s not a direct comparison though as the routes don’t totally match each other.
Dave
27/03/12 – 07:19
I travelled regularly on the Burnley/Rochdale to Halifax sections of these routes back in 1965-70 and don’t remember seeing double-deckers in use on them anywhere west of Hebden Bridge. Usually it was Weymann Hermes/BET style saloons, although on one occasion I managed to talk myself on board a Hebble Bellhouse Hartwell Landmaster serving as a duplicate – in theory only for passengers connecting to Yelloway’s overnight departure to Torquay. The Landmaster then went “on hire” to Yelloway. Am I right in thinking that one of these wonderful coaches survives?
Neville Mercer
27/03/12 – 07:19
This photo and the comments bring back happy memories from my childhood. One of the joys of travelling by Hebble on the 15 or 28 from Leeds was the (usually) non-stop thrash to Stanningley Bottom. This was the result of the then very common revenue protection arrangements enforced by Leeds City Transport within their boundaries. To a twelve year-old lad, the pleasure and novelty of overtaking LCT buses on Armley and Stanningley Roads was always appreciated and a fitting end to a day’s train spotting, even though Hebble’s first permitted stop was well beyond our usual destination. In keeping with our childish mentality were our giggles when being asked by what was probably the first Asian conductor I’d encountered, “Are you sure you want this bus – the first stop is Stanningley Bottoms!”.
Paul Haywood
27/03/12 – 07:21
These services have an interesting history. Road service licensing meant that, as Todmorden already had services in the valley, Hebble had to be content with getting to Burnley through Heptonstall. This was a route not suitable for double-deckers and in some winters not suitable for buses at all. They provided an hourly service though for the sheep to watch – there was little in the way of traffic on this section. The Rochdale service had a variety of operators including the LMS Railway from Rochdale to Leeds. That was hourly, again with single-deckers, in this case due to low bridge in Littleborough, although the Rochdale to Halifax section was half-hourly on Saturdays. It also included a through journey to Llandudno on summer Saturdays, just slightly west of Rochdale. When Calderdale JOC was formed Halifax, Todmorden and Hebble became all part of the same organisation and a rationalisation of services ensued. The service to Burnley via Heptonstall became two journeys on a Saturday and through traffic was dealt with by linking the Halifax to Hebden Bridge and Todmorden to Burnley services, supplemented with an express Leeds-Burnley service, the 8. The express service was not successful and was truncated to a Leeds to Halifax service, the 8 which became the 508 under the PTE numbering scheme. Up until 1976/7 it was worked exclusively from Halifax but then operation was shared with Leeds, just in time to allow some of the last surviving buses in Leeds livery to work it – I have a picture of Jumbo 491 in Halifax on it. The Rochdale service became really exciting in Halifax ownership. The existing 28 ran every two hours and alternated with a new 27, which turned off at Triangle and passed through Soyland and Mill Bank before rejoining the 28 near Baitings reservoir. The 27 was a lovely run along hilly country lanes but made exciting by the fact that for all the detour, it didn’t have any more running time. The Leopards used on it gave a very spirited performance. I used to love riding on it and more than once had Tony Blackman at the wheel, which was even better. After deregulation the Rochdale services were operated by Yelloway and saw such vehicles as Plaxton-bodied Reliance coaches and National 2s. I used to use the 508 when I was at Leeds University to get back from Halifax (and beyond) after a pub crawl as you could get back later from Halifax than most other places.
David Beilby
27/03/12 – 15:50
David, your comment reminds me of the time when Leeds began to operate the 508 service out of Bramley depot. Its difficult now to imagine how very “parochial” the Leeds operation in general was in those days – even those drivers aware of the long distance journey to Bradford were looked on by the rest as brave explorers. When the Halifax participation began only a limited number of drivers were familiarised and they became celebrities almost overnight. I was once “showing up” (spare) in Leeds Bus station with an AEC Swift and a conductor when a harassed inspector enquired of the several crews if anyone knew the way to Bradford as there was a serious hiatus in the frequent service – I volunteered immediately with glee, and was looked on by the others as a “double agent” who’d let the side down and broken up the card school. I enjoyed the trip immensely, full load all the way there and back, and managed to handle all the usual passenger jibes “Thought you’d gone on strike” etc – the young conductor was not amused at all – no stamina some of them you know !!
Chris Youhill
27/03/12 – 15:51
I once caught the Rochdale – Leeds service in Calderdale days. The steed was a Weymann bodied Leopard which gave a good account of itself .However it was a chilly spring evening and the rubber edging on the door was somewhat frayed and the ensuing draft assumed Antarctic proportions on the tops . Like many Calderdale buses the Leopard was fitted with the unusual and eccentric method of change giving whereby the coins rattled down a chute to the right of the passenger The journey cost me 40p at the time what a bargain! Incidentally First ran a short lived direct peak hour Leeds – Halifax direct service numbered X8 which has now ceased. The Hebble service from Bradford via Queensbury to Halifax was another epic with astounding views into the Calder Valley as you headed into Halifax
Chris Hough
28/03/12 – 08:44
I’ve been wondering exactly the same as Neville Mercer about the Hebble Royal Tiger/Bellhouse Hartwell. It was ECP 500 and apparently someone made an appeal to Dewsbury Bus Museum to see if it could be saved but that was well over a year ago and as nothing has been heard since, I fear it has been lost. A very sad event if so because I thought they were wonderful machines, they exuded fabulous Fifties flamboyance!
Chris Barker
28/03/12 – 08:44
When Calderdale took over the Leeds services they tended to use dual purpose saloons interspersed with bus Leopards and front entrance Titans and Regent V. However the depot must have been short of motive power one afternoon as the 4PM departure from Leeds to Burnley was an ex Todmorden all Leyland PD2/12! Despite its age around 20 it stormed up Stanningly road leaving LCT vehicles trailing in its wake! It was still carrying Todmorden livery which must have confused passengers no end
Chris Hough
28/03/12 – 11:32
There is a good shot of ECP 500 in Malcolm Keeley’s Buses in Camera ‘Mercian and Welsh’
Roger Broughton
28/03/12 – 11:33
I agree with Chris Barker that it would be a tragedy if the Landmaster has been scrapped. These were never that common – the only other one I ever managed to ride on was an AEC Regal IV belonging to Meredith & Jesson of Cefn Mawr. M&J frequently used their example on their stage service to Wrexham! I fear that if the Hebble machine has indeed gone, then the glorious BH Landmaster is now extinct. Where on Earth are people’s priorities when there are hundreds of Routemasters still in preservation? Thank heaven for far-sighted preservationists such as Roger Burdett and the Ementons who bring a bit of welcome variety to the preservation scene.
Neville Mercer
28/03/12 – 11:37
Gentlemen – thank you for filling in the information on this Regent’s Hebble days, I’m pleased you found the photo of interest.
One question though – why is the bus parked with its offside nearest the platform/bay/stand – was it normal practice, or a one off?
Also there has been mention of the Hebble Royal Tiger ECP 500, below are a couple of shots as it was when I photographed it in Lancashire in August 2008.
Bob Gell
28/03/12 – 18:25
Chester Street bus station in Bradford was basically two rudimentary laybys with Chester Street going through the middle West Yorkshire used the layby opposite the Hebble stands which was also home to Yorkshire Woollen and Yorkshire Traction services. As well as the aforementioned laybys the actual street was also utilised. The whole set up being very spartan with little in the way of passenger facilities
Chris Hough
28/03/12 – 18:29
…..and there was also the Sheffield United Tours pair of 1955 Reliances. They seemed to be an extra order and the bodies were apparently cancelled by Blue Cars and originally intended for Leyland chassis. Blue Cars already had examples.
David Oldfield
28/03/12 – 18:30
Apparently the Landmaster was due to be scrapped, but at the eleventh hour it was reprieved when Ensign agreed to take it on. Having seen some of the restoration jobs they have undertaken, this was a great relief, but I am told that even they decided that it was beyond redemption, and that it may well have been scrapped by now. I hope not, as it would be a tragic loss.
John Stringer
28/03/12 – 18:31
I have a feeling that I read somewhere, not so long ago, that Ensign had been approached to save ECP500, but had declined because of its stripped out condition and its frailty, making it too tricky to tow.
Chris Hebbron
28/03/12 – 18:38
To answer Bob Gell’s latest question ” Chester Street Bus Station (but not the through road down the middle) operated at this time as “one way” for buses. Thus they all entered via Little Horton lane and exited via either Great Horton Road or (in the case of buses heading back up Little Horton Lane – The Sheffield 66 joint service and certain Hebble Routes) via a loop on Wilton Street past the morgue and thence back up Little Horton Lane. The non West Yorkshire side had two stands ” on the side pictured there were the Hebble Stands for the 7 & 17 Halifax services, the two Hipperholme (26) routes (where AJX 245 appears to be heading as far as I can tell from the blind), and the Bingley 19 service via Wilsden. Additionally there was the joint Yorkshire Woollen and North Western X12 Manchester service. Any remaining space nearer Little Horton Lane was taken up with spare West Yorkshire vehicles between turns. Interestingly these were parked against the traffic flow ” presumably so that they could regain the West Yorkshire half facing in the right direction ready for their next run. Thus all these service buses loaded on the live bus carriageway. On the other side of this half there were stands for the Sheffield 66, (joint Sheffield’C’ Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woollen.) and also the Samuel Ledgard Leeds via Pudsey Routes. These loaded from the kerb. On the West Yorkshire half, all routes with the exception of the 67 Keighley/Skipton loaded in the middle of the bus carriageway as they were parked “herringbone” either side of the Green Hut. All passengers for these routes had to cross the bus carriageway to join their buses. All in all the place was somewhat hazardous for passengers to say the least. I think things were remodelled sometime in the late 60’s. Returning to AJX 245 it was bound for Hipperholme Crossroads via Wibsey. There were two routes 26 and 26a, one branching off just after Stone Chair at Shelf to run through Coley village with other keeping to the main road through Lumbrook. There was a short working for a time to the edge of the then new Bradford Council Buttershaw Estate which displayed Boltby Lane ” running I recall at peak hours only. This was discontinued when Bradford Corporation built a trolleybus extension into the heart of the Estate. One other interesting bit of information is that there was a through route to Halifax (29) that ran on this route from Bradford as far as Shelf thence to Halifax ” for some reason on Saturdays only. It was termed the “Wibsey Flyer” ” its route was marginally shorter than the main routes through Queensbury or Odsal/Shelf and Hebble drivers always liked a challenge. And finally I used to visit my Sister for lunch once a week ” she lived in Allerton on the Hebble Route 19 from Bingley. I always used to catch the Hebble back into Bradford, I reckon it could shave at least 5 minutes off the 31 trolleybus ” rarely stopping at all after the Chapel Lane stop in Allerton. As I said the Hebble drivers liked a challenge !
Farmer G
29/03/12 – 08:04
The Samuel Ledgard (formerly B & B TOURS) buses for Harrogate also departed from the “West Yorkshire” side of Chester Street Bus Station. Their route was identical to the WYRCC 53 service except that “the blues” deviated from the main road at the Hare and Hounds and additionally served the full length of Menston Village.
Chris Youhill
29/03/12 – 08:06
What a shame to think that ECP 500 has survived so long only to be lost so recently. Whilst in a poor state it doesn’t look so dreadful compared to some restorations. I managed to find a photograph of it taken in 1976 and better times when it appears to be in fine condition. Here… //s880.photobucket.com/
Richard Leaman
29/03/12 – 08:07
To sort of illustrate Chris’ memory on this thread (which seems to be unravelling into about three different themes) the attached picture shows the bus he was referring to, which was Calderdale 357. This one lasted quite a while in Todmorden livery and I’m pretty sure was the last to carry it by some margin.
This picture is taken near Cliviger, between Todmorden and Burnley, a location much better known to railway enthusiasts as Copy Pit and a bit of a shrine in the very last days of steam. What it shows is a Halifax PD2 on the 8 from Burnley to Leeds, with 357 behind on what I recall as a duplicate. Behind that is a Ribble Leopard on an express service to Manchester.
David Beilby
29/03/12 – 17:50
I love your comments, Farmer G, about the speed of the Hebble 19 service! They were flyers alright, especially before the route was double decked. Swirls of dust and dead leaves in their wake! West Yorkshire, down Thornton Road were just as exciting sometimes, even with 5LWs, but one of the reasons was the longer spacings of bus stops, and the penny surcharge in the City boundary, which got them to Town quicker, but which most thrifty Bradfordians did not experience because of said surcharge. Mind you, the old “Regen” trolleys could move a bit too! Memories of hurtling down Thornton Road, from Spring Head to Bell Dean come to mind. So much for “silent trolleybuses”! They made more noise than a Hebble and a WY combined! Happy Days!
John Whitaker
30/03/12 – 07:08
What a superb photo David B! When was it taken, early PTE days perhaps?
Dave Towers
30/03/12 – 08:52
Sorry – I forgot to add a date! It was on 17th June 1972.
David Beilby
17/09/12 – 06:58
I well remember the Hebble service over the tops to Halifax in the 1960s–used to use it on Saturdays to call at the Sportsman for a few jars–great service–do any buses go over the tops these days? Hard for me to check as I left to live in France when I retired.
John Oakes
17/05/13 – 09:09
I was a parcels delivery driver for rail express in the early 1970s I noticed ECP 500 in the yard at Talbot House school in Glossop whilst delivering there. I wrote to the H C V C in the hope that someone could rescue her 40 years on I have just found out that John S Hinchliffe purchased her from the school. Some pictures I have seen show that she scrubbed up well how sad that more recent pictures tell a different story.it would appear that she did not survive
John Kelly
05/04/14 – 07:12
I lived in Northowram and when the Bradford service was routed via Stone Chair and Landemere under Calderdale, we often had to give directions to drivers who previously stopped at the Northowram boundary or at least, only knew the main road between Bradford and Halifax. They would fly down the hill from Stone Chair only to find around a slight bend at the bottom that there were passengers standing in the road (no pavement). The drivers were none too happy in trying to pull up a Fleetline in short order!
John Turnbull
06/04/14 – 08:24
John, I was once involved in a collision on the ‘slight bend’ you mention, which was towards the bottom of Score Hill and just above Landemere Syke. If they were on time, opposing buses were due to pass one another in Score Hill, so could easily meet on the bend. There was a stone barn belonging to the adjacent farm on downhill side, right on the bend, severely restricting visibility, so one quickly learned to scan the view ahead over the top of the farm from much further back – whilst travelling along Northowram Green (outbound) or from the top of Score Hill (inbound). Though it was not an official instruction, the regular drivers’ convention was for the inbound bus to slow right down or stop half way down the hill until the outbound one had safely negotiated the corner. One weekday afternoon I was outbound towards Bradford in an ex-Halifax Fleetline. I did the usual scan ahead and could not see a bus descending the hill, so I proceeded and approached the bend with great caution. Unfortunately, whilst I had been passing through the blind section of the dip at Landemere Syke the inbound bus had come over the brow of the hill and was hurtling down it rather too speedily. The weather conditions were dull and drizzly, so the road surface was already wet, but the fact that the farmer from Wall Nook Farm had earlier herded his cows down the road meant that there was a lethal coating of slippery brown stuff too. As I very slowly rounded the bend I then saw the bus – another of the same type – coming towards me and so stopped immediately. The other driver had only passed out of the driving school a few days before and must have panicked, hitting the brakes hard. It went into a lengthy skid – totally out of control – and as Fleetlines would do in such instances went into a front wheel skid on the bend. I instinctively accelerated to the left to avoid being hit head on, and the bus collided violently with my front offside then bounced off in the other direction and buried itself in the barn wall, virtually destroying it. Strangely I felt quite calm, and was about to leap out to check if the other driver was injured – fearing the worst. I raised my arm to brush a fragment of something from my hair, and my conductor Ken got into a bit of a state and shouted at me not to move, and not to touch my head – pointing at it anxiously. I looked in the mirror and there was a very large triangular-shaped section of my offside cab window glass stuck into my hair in an upright position – like a kind of glass Mohican ! He’s assumed it must have been buried into my skull, but I just flicked it away without any red stuff gushing out, much to his relief. Miraculously neither the other driver nor any of our passengers were injured. Police and our inspectors and engineers were soon on the scene, and the other bus had to be extracted and towed away. Our inspector – the late John Davis – having knocked out the remaining broken glass from my side windows and twisted off various bits of metal trim and the odd panel, deemed that my bus was fit to drive, and decided that the other badly shaken driver should drive it back to depot under his supervision, fearing that otherwise they would go home and never want to drive again. That would most certainly not happen nowadays, but fortunately he was right and the driver did carry on and drove for a few more years. The barn was eventually rebuilt, and ever afterwards each time I passed it I could not help being reminded of the incident, and of what might have been.
John Stringer
06/04/14 – 10:44
A very ‘interesting’ tale, in more ways then one, John. The scary thing is seeing things unfold and it was quick-witted of you to get your bus moving so quickly when trouble approached. The amazing thing is that the barn was rebuilt, so perpetuating the very danger that caused the accident!
Chris Hebbron
16/06/15 – 06:41
More on the Hebble Halifax to Burnley route. When I began drinking, the Shoulder of Mutton at Blackshaw Head was a lively place with bands on every Friday and our friends place to be for years. We used to meet in Halifax at the Bulls Head, then catch the 7-30 pm Hebble. It used to “fly” down the Calder Valley and we were usually at the pub soon after 8 pm. Going home was more difficult at the last bus was while the band was still playing as the pub stayed open very late. You had to see if you could cadge a lift off someone or leave early. (Back to Northowram) Happy days!
John Turnbull
02/08/16 – 17:30
Hebble ran several services out of Bradford. Two to Halifax No’s 7 and 17. Huddersfield 64, Bingley 19. One to Duckworth Lane. Hipperholme 2 ways – Lumbrook and Coley alternate. Saturday only 29 to Halifax via Wibsey and the Bolby flyer peak hours to Buttershaw estate. Several Yorkshire Woollen vehicles were housed in Park Rd. The X12 to Manchester ran a YWD vehicle.
Allan Wood
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
17/12/18 – 07:21
A few of my own comments. As to Hilditch having Bradford and Leeds put onto destination blinds, Bradford was on many right back to the 1950s. All the Daimler CVG6 class had Bradford on them, although never running past the Queen Victoria at the Borough Boundary. It was to be found on many other vehicles long before Hilditch took over. When the 7 was diverted to Stone Chair and Northowram Hospital, I lived at Landemere and When Bradford began sharing the route, was called to the bus stop and asked which direction to take the bus. It was common for a while that the driver would shout back and ask passengers the way to go after leaving the main Bradford road. For quite a long time, vehicle inspectors would board vehicles at Crossfield before allowing passengers on and do a check. One time after looking here and there, he forbade anyone to board and directed it to be parked in Gt.Albion St. (AEC Regent V-Weymann). We then had to wait for one to come down off the parking area to take over. As all have said, that last period was appalling for Hebble. Goodness knows what the mechanics thought as people must have been pointing fingers.
Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport 1949 AEC Regent III 9612E Weymann H30/26R
As part of the replacement programme for the post-war AEC Regents, by Leyland Atlanteans, a number of second-hand vehicles were purchased by Hull Corporation. As mentioned in a previous Hull Corporation posting one of these batches were twelve AEC Regents from Leicester Corporation, which were purchased in 1966. They were allocated fleet numbers 201 to 212, but this was amended in October, 1966 to 101 to 112. Nine of the vehicles which were then in service had their fleet numbers altered, but 109, 110 and 112, entered service carrying the new numbers. Registration marks were FBC 282 to 288, 291 to 295. They were withdrawn between November 1968 and December 1969. The photo shows 103 (FBC 284) leaving the Coach Station on service 30 to Stoneferry.
The streamlined livery on this strangely old-fashioned body style gives this bus a very 1930s feel.
Paul Haywood
30/04/12 – 07:42
The bodies were actually MCW, not Weymann, based on a design going back to 1933! Obviously upgraded and updated, but nevertheless to the old basic shape. Very attractive too, but I think they looked even more wonderful in Leicester’s glorious maroon and cream. LCT had another batch of Mark IIIs, with Brush metal bodies, and these too were very attractive vehicles, the post war Brush metal framed bodies being most unlike the composite style. Leicester was a most interesting fleet, right from the early days, and one which I plan to study in a bit more detail as I have lived near Leicester now for over 40 years. Anyone fancy joining in?
John Whitaker
30/04/12 – 09:07
Talk about unobservant, I’d not even looked at the “title” paragraph. Just to be really awkward, John, they are MCCW (Metropolitan Cammell Coach Works). MCW (Metropolitan Cammell – Weymann) was a marketing company until the two firms merged in 1965/6 to form a new MCW manufacturing company.
David Oldfield
01/05/12 – 07:03
I thought MCCW stood for Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon (Co Ltd). That’s what it said on Manchester Corp’s body plates. I think that more than anything else it’s the sharply raked-back of the front, and consequent small first upper deck window, that makes this design look so archaic.
Peter Williamson
01/05/12 – 07:04
Hi David – Sorry MCCW stood for Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon, a builder solely of railway rolling stock until a diversification into steel framed bus bodies circa 1930. Bodies of the same basic design as FBC 284 were also supplied to Nottingham, Salford, Wallasey and Glasgow (Glasgow’s were built by both MCCW and Weymann’s).
Michael Elliott
01/05/12 – 19:38
Peter and Michael, I knew that and was just waiting for someone to correct me. It was a moment of unforgivable senior madness. Forgive my lapse of standards. [see other post!!!]
David Oldfield
16/07/12 – 06:23
I remember both these and the Brush bodied ones in service in Leicester. Powerful engines and pre-select gearboxes gave a very smooth ride – far more refined than the All-Leyland PD2s, in my opinion.
Adrian Griffiths
13/07/18 – 07:35
Does anyone know if Hull CT reregistered these purchases with local registration numbers. Reason for asking is that there has recently been posted on the Old Hull facebook page a picture of a bus not in any of the Hull operators livery but bearing a local reg No GKH 384.
Reg Oakley
14/07/18 – 06:57
The bus in the photograph Reg Oakley refers to is a Leyland TD series, and its registration matches its age, falling in the gap between a batch of Hull AEC Regents and a pair of East Yorkshire Leyland TD7s. Therefore it isn’t a re-registration. Hopefully someone will recognise it.
Peter Williamson
14/07/18 – 10:56
I’ve created the link below to the facebook page mentioned by Reg Oakley (above) – creating such a link is perfectly within the rules. If you scroll down the comments on the said facebook page you’ll see that the vehicle has been identified as being ex-Hull Corporation, one of four Leyland TD7/Leyland diverted to Hull in 1942, 200-3 (GKH 381-4). In the facebook pic (reputedly taken in 1960, the year of GKH 384’s withdrawal from the passenger fleet), it looks as though it might have been transferred to an alternative council department.
Titan no. 203 went to the City Engineer’s Department for staff transport to new estates on the edge of the city and was given an all green livery and lasted until sometime in 1963. Believed scrapped in 1964. Regents 245 and 250 also went the City Engineer in 1966.
Malcolm J Wells
17/07/18 – 06:31
This bodywork reminds me so much of Provincial of Gosport’s similar-bodied pre-war buses – only the post-war radiator giving the game away as to the Hull version’s relative newness!
Liverpool City Transport 1954 AEC Regent III 9613S Saunders-Roe H32/26R
Liverpool City Transport’s A40 can reasonably be stated to be a unique bus. As far as I can make out, it was one of just two double-deck buses for the UK market with bodies built as a Saunders-Roe product (the other being its twin, A39), and to make it unique it carries one of the small number of unpainted bodies ordered by Liverpool with the intention of using them on limited stop services. 40 were originally envisaged, but the idea was dropped and in the end only 18 appeared as such. These bodies are not painted silver, but the panels have a textured natural aluminium finish. It’s not clear whether this in practice reduced maintenance or repaint costs, but all of them retained the unpainted finish to the end of LCT days at least. Because of the texture to the finish, it would not have been possible simply to paint over the original panels, so to change livery would have required a complete repanelling. Despite the tin front, this is indeed a Regent III, one of the large batch of 100 delivered between 1953 and 1955 during the tram replacement programme. Apart from the two from Saunders-Roe, the remainder were either built by Crossley or finished by Liverpool on Crossley frames. Horne and Maund’s epic treatise on Liverpool’s Transport doesn’t give any reason for the two bodies being ordered from Saunders Roe. Doing some investigation into Saunders-Roe, I did discover that following the takeover of Crossley by AEC, a number of design staff transferred to Saro. In view of Liverpool’s close relationship with Crossley, I wonder whether there was some sort of insider dealing going on. Interestingly, the Saro bodies, being of all-aluminium construction were about one ton lighter than the Crossley ones, and additionally had 2 extra top deck seats, both of which might have been considered significant advantages. The reduced weight should have led to fuel economies, but the main factor could have been first cost of the aluminium structure. In the course of my investigations I also put to rest a misapprehension about Saunders (of RT fame) and Saro (of the Tiger Cubs). I had always been led to understand that the two were separate organisations. In practice Saunders, Saunders Engineering and Shipbuilding (SEAS) and Saunders-Roe (Saro) were simply successive marketing names for the bus building operations of the Saunders-Roe group at Beaumaris. What was A40 doing in Manchester’s Hyde Road Garage? The answer is that the Liverpool University Public Transport Society (LUPTS) had organised a trolleybus tour of the Manchester and Ashton system on 12 June 1966, and this was the vehicle selected to ferry the Liverpool contingent to and from Manchester. The bus was certainly made to show what it could do along the open spaces of the East Lancs Road.
Copyright Alan Murray-Rust
This second view is a fuller shot of the bus showing better detail of the Saro body, waiting to start from the University Students’ Union in Liverpool. As can been seen, it was normal British summer weather, but remarkably the rain had ceased by the time we arrived in Manchester (!) for the main tour, and at one point the sun even tried to come out.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Alan Murray-Rust
30/12/12 – 08:54
Well, A40 certainly stands out against the red and cream residents! I, too, have often wondered where Saunders, Saunders Roe and Saro fitted together. I presume there is no connection with the rather more popular Roe of Crossgates, Leeds!
Pete Davies
30/12/12 – 08:55
Alan. Even allowing for your self-correction in paragraph two, there were many deckers from Beaumaris. The 250 RTs were preceded by OKM 317 which was operated by Dodd’s of Troon and used as a test bed for the said RTs. Devon General, like many others, had a programme of rebuilding after the war. DR705 (ETT 995) used the chassis of a 1937 AEC Regent with parts from a 1938 Regal with a new (1953) Saunders-Roe body. Don’t know how many, if any, more Saunders-Roe bodies emerged in this programme. It was certainly a extensive one but most of the new bodies were by Weymann and extended to 1954. They were known locally as “Light sixes”. Were there any more? Over to you out there…..
David Oldfield
South Wales Transport had a number of Regent Vs which were unpainted. I well remember them in their first year in service when on a visit to South Wales though my main memory from that trip is a ride on the Swansea and Mumbles Railway or Tramway – both terms were used – with two double decker trams coupled together, something I hadn’t seen in Blackpool. I seem to remember the Regents were repainted so presumably their panels were to a different finish. I was never a fan of the Liverpool Crossley or Saro bodies to this design, I thought, and still do, that they are visually utilitarian. Regarding the South Wales Regents, the following is reproduced from Commercial Motor: “Since 1958 our company has been experimenting with non-painted buses to ascertain whether there was any advantage in operating buses of this type. Altogether, we had 13 such vehicles, six were acquired in 1958 and a further seven in 1959. It would seem, however, from the records that while the unpainted vehicles offered certain advantages there were disadvantages which in relation to costs of maintenance, showed that over the experimental period there was very little to choose between the painted and unpainted vehicles. For instance, the unpainted vehicles have received considerably more than normal cleaning to maintain an acceptable appearance. The cost of which almost cancelled out the saving made in the non-painting of the exterior. The unpainted vehicles, when requiring body repairs after accidents, did offer certain advantages, severe damage, which necessitated the complete replacement of a panel was facilitated when no painting was required. However, there were disadvantages in this respect too, minor dents and scratches which could be filled and painted on an orthodox finish, invariably necessitated the changing of the panel, as the effect of even the most highly skilled panel beating was still visible. There being little to choose on actual cost, the final decision evolved over the appearance of the vehicles and it was felt that the painted bus was considerably more attractive, so it’s back to the redskins for us.”
Phil Blinkhorn
30/12/12 – 09:49
No, Pete. They had no connection with Charles H Roe of Leeds. They were, however, connected with Avro (however it was spelt – I’m sure Phil Blinkhorn will correct me) who were aircraft builders, hence the aluminium construction. [Slightly off piste: London Transport and Park Royal were involved in war time aircraft production. This led to their aluminium expertise when designing and building the Routemaster.]
David Oldfield
30/12/12 – 12:07
Avro (AV Roe & Co), the Manchester- based aircraft manufacturer, was founded by Alliot Verdon Roe. Later ejected from his own company by bankers, he took an interest in Saunders of Cowes in the Isle of Wight – a flying boat builder – which then became Saunders-Roe. On the subject of double-decker buses, have we all forgotten the Leyland PDR Lowloader? One of the two prototypes had Saunders-Roe bodywork. Then there were the vehicles built under contract from MCW in the 1960s.
Neville Mercer
30/12/12 – 13:42
Well yes, to my shame, Neville, I had forgotten the Atlantean/Lowloader but tell me, I’m intrigued, about the MCW sub-contracts.
David Oldfield
While Charles Roe s had no connection with A V Roe. Leeds was home to a shadow factory in world war 2 that produced over 700 examples of the world famous Lancaster bomber. The factory was next to what is now Leeds-Bradford Airport and was heavily camouflaged to the extent it had the roof grassed over and live sheep on top! One other operator who tried unpainted aluminium for the fleet was Edinburgh who had a small batch of MCW bodied Leyland Titans these were soon painted and no more were purchased in this format
Chris Hough
30/12/12 – 13:45
Thank you, David O. I didn’t think there was a connection, but one never knows!
Pete Davies
30/12/12 – 17:29
Been travelling all day so missed much of the above until now. I’ve never got to the bottom of just why Leyland went to Saunders Roe for the body for the Lowloader. In 1953 they were still building bodies though the thought may have been that they wanted continuity and the writing was on the wall for their own plant. Given that, why didn’t they go to MCW or, closer to home, Northern Counties? Perhaps they wanted to keep things as quiet as possible for a while and chose SARO for its remote location, relatively few customer visitors and in the knowledge that the order would receive detailed and deep attention from a company at the time looking to increase its business.
Phil Blinkhorn
31/12/12 – 07:14
Can’t help noticing the body on A40 has a very strong resemblance to the Northern Counties 4-bay bodies on tin-front PD2’s operated by Lytham St Annes and Oldham.
Philip Halstead
31/12/12 – 07:16
Some musings on Phil’s comment on the Crossley bodies of the same batch of Regents. Personally, I always felt that the 8ft wide bodies on the first batch of Regents (A757-806) were not unattractive. The body was not enhanced by the addition of the first Liverpool-style tin front. The final version of the Crossley body, and particularly the final version of the tin front, were distinctly retrograde. What is undeniable is that the final livery of overall green with just the central window surrounds in cream was a recipe for making any manufacturer’s body look utilitarian. Even the early two-band livery didn’t do a great deal, so that even the Leyland bodies – one of my favourites – was made to look pedestrian in comparison with some other operators (e.g. the one across the water). My view on this earlier livery may well be influenced by the fact that the relatively few vehicles still carrying it when I became familiar with the fleet would already be some years out of paint shop, and that version of the green was notorious in not meeting old age gracefully. The very last vehicle to retain that style, the evaluation Atlantean E2, was reckoned to have no two panels of exactly the same shade of green towards the end. It was a real patchwork.
Alan Murray-Rust
31/12/12 – 11:29
Now the A. V. Roe part of the equation has been settled, what about the Saunders part? There was a Saunders Eng & Shipbuilding at Cowes Isle of Wight which merged in 1948, with Avro, but Cowes is a long way from Beaumaris. The 300 Saunders RTs were delivered from 11/48 until 2/51. M&D had a batch of Saunders-bodied K6As (DH204-243, JKM 901-940 delivered in 1948 which had a Weymann-look about them. Where were these built? Then there was a 1942 K5G (DH445 GKR 741) which had a Saunders body built in June 1950. This was definitely based on the RT body behind the bulkhead, even to the interior trim and top rear emergency exit. Was this body tucked into the RT production run or an experimental body using Rivaloy construction? Also, the AA AEC Regent III (OKM 317) built in 1951 as a prototype for future production, though apparently registered to M&D in 1951 but not used by them but as a demonstrator, but was it for AEC or Saro? Further, M&D also had a Saro semi-chassiless bus in 1953 (SO68 RKE 540) with Gardner engine, but I don’t know who supplied the gearbox and other running units. It appears to have been still-born because I can’t find any similar vehicles ever being built. All the vehicles mentioned (and all the Tiger Cubs for Ribble, etc) seemed to have full service lives, so it seems odd that this manufacturer had a relatively short flirtation with buses. Over to you gentlemen to explain this lot!!
Ray Stringer (no relation to John)
31/12/12 – 12:51
There is a book in existence “Saunders Roe Ltd, Builders of the World’s Lightest Buses” by Gerald Truran published by Bryngold Books (Wales). Not sure if it is still in print as it isn’t listed on their current web page. This was written by a former employee. All Saunders Roe buses were, as far as I’m aware, built on Anglesey. The company itself started as S E Saunders boat builders. The Wikipedia page is reasonably accurate and worth a read as a starter – //en.wikipedia.org/
Phil Blinkhorn
31/12/12 – 12:52
We all ought to go away and look at Wikepedia about Avro and Saunders Roe. It otherwise needs a complete article. These companies- and others- seemed to survive by doing a bit of this and a bit of that- often innovative- and occasionally a Helicopter or a bus would come good. They merged and unmerged and reorganised like primitive life forms. AV Roe himself seems to be a consistent element. The thing that doesn’t seem to have appeared here and put me right if I’m wrong is that one factory was built next door to Crossleys and when AEC took over Crossley, a number jumped ship and so bus expertise was acquired: so was the Lowloader related to the Crossley chassisless bus? And then the riveted aluminium buses for export…. you can get an idea of our manufacturing problems-these were flexible companies with eggs in many baskets…. like Tatra?
Joe
31/12/12 – 17:22
Joe, Crossley’s factory was at Errwood Rd Stockport, Cheshire. SARO’s was at Beaumaris on Anglesey so those who moved to SARO had to move house. I’m not aware of any linkage between the chassis/engine/drive train used by the Lowloader and anything Crossley. As far as I know, only the body was SARO and the assumed linkage on the Wikipedia page could well be speculative. I’m not aware that anything other than bodies were produced by SARO
Phil Blinkhorn
31/12/12 – 17:23
There is a connection between Crossley Motors and AVRO. From 1920 to 1928 A V Roe and Company Limited was owned by Crossley Motors and it was at the end of this period that A V Roe left the firm he had founded. He sold his minority share holding in AVRO to J D Siddeley, of Armstrong – Siddeley, the company Crossley had sold its majority share holding to. Armstrong – Siddeley’s aircraft interests became Hawker-Siddeley (of Hurricane fame) and AVRO was a separate subsidiary of this organisation. A V Roe used the proceeds from the sale of his AVRO shares to buy a controlling interest in Saunders Aircraft of Cowes, which was renamed Saunders-Roe. Saunders-Roe had a factory at Beaumaris, which became the base for their bus body building activities using at various times Saunders Engineering and Shipyard (SEAS) and SARO.
Michael Elliott
31/12/12 – 17:28
Copyright Saunders
Here’s a photo of Saunders Ship. & Eng. yard at Beaumaris, in 1949, with bus bodying in full swing!. The chassis without platform extension are those of RT’s. The four chassis with extensions, in the centre of photo, are those AEC Regal III’s.”
Chris Hebbron
01/01/13 – 07:19
Yes I misspoke Phil… I was confusing Crossley taking over the Avro works in 1920. But Wikipedia does say that after AEC the design staff from Crossley went to Saro, hence the Lowloader had Crossley connections! That could make sense?
Joe
01/01/13 – 07:20
Phil: I’ve looked at the Bryngold website and the Saro book is listed about two thirds of the way down the list of titles on the right of the page; this opens a separate page relating to the book, and there is no suggestion that it is unavailable. Knowing Gerald Truran’s voluminous knowledge of all things Welsh in the bus world, he may well clarify the reason for Saro working on the Lowloader project. My own guess would be that Leyland were looking to build on the experience Saro had with chassisless aluminium construction with the Tiger Cubs, which were definitely not failures. Incidentally, the Bryngold page has a picture of the bodyshop with an undeniable Bristol half-cab (without much body structure) which set me wondering until I saw Ray Stringer’s comment above referring to the M&D batch, which I had been unaware of.
Alan Murray-Rust
01/01/13 – 09:53
Joe, That could be but it’s a bit tenuous as Crossley’s staff who moved and worked on the Lowloader would have had little, if anything, to do with the Bridgemaster development as work on the Lowloader design at SARO commenced in 1951 and Crossley’s involvement with the Bridgemaster was from 1953/4. Alan, Thanks for the info. When I went into their site yesterday the page obviously didn’t load properly as the sidebar was missing. Could you expand on your comment re chassisless construction and Tiger Cubs as the Cub had a chassis?
Phil Blinkhorn
01/01/13 – 11:21
Phil: My comment on the Saro Tiger Cubs was something that was sitting in the back of my mind rather than based on something definitive. I’ve done some checking up in my limited library, and two things have become clear. Firstly, the Saro Tiger Cubs were clearly conventional chassis, and secondly that the chronology does not support my guess, as the development work on the Lowloader (source: The Leyland Bus) predated the Cubs. Moral: engage brain before opening mouth! It’s interesting to see that one of the demonstrator Cubs – part of the Ribble order – had a Saro body. The Leyland Bus doesn’t comment on the choice of Saro, but both Tiger Cub and Lowloader were small engine vehicles, so the weight saving of an aluminium body would be a key factor. One wonders why they were not more widespread – was it higher first cost, operator conservatism or capacity at the Anglesey plant?
Alan Murray-Rust
01/01/13 – 11:43
Returning to Liverpool’s A40, it’s interesting that Liverpool specified a textured unpainted aluminium. This seems to have, whatever it looked like, a durability the South Wales Regents never attained. In Gavin Booth’s Buses By Design there’s a picture of an ex-works South Wales Regent taken at Addlestone and the panels are very obviously smooth. He comments that the finish swiftly tarnished and the buses were all painted.
Phil Blinkhorn
02/01/13 – 07:23
Like Alan, I have always assumed that the reason for the choice of Saunders-Roe to body the first Lowloader prototype was weight-saving, given that the bus was to be used for demonstration and needed to impress with its performance. By the time the second Lowloader was built, MCW’s lightweight construction had been developed. Guy also used Saro for its Gardner 5HLW-powered Arab LUF demonstrator, perhaps for the same reason. I have read that Saunders-Roe’s early departure from the bus body market was due to a policy decision by the company rather than any lack of customer interest.
Peter Williamson
02/01/13 – 09:00
I have always been given to believe that all operators of Saro buses spoke highly of their quality. They were an “off-shoot” of an existing business and presumably not core to it.
David Oldfield
03/01/13 – 06:38
Being involved with Liverpool A40 in the early part of its restoration, it certainly had (as was stated earlier) a good power to weight ratio being over a ton lighter than similar Crossley bodied Regents. Bodywork wise too it was much more solid than its Crossley steel framed counterparts. The only body restoration that has taken place in preservation on A40 has been a platform bearer! Notable when its parked next to a London RT is the RT style emergency window!
Rob
27/12/13 – 15:27
Great to see the old LCPT AEC A40 – these were known to school kids as “ghost buses”. My cousin was a big bus fan, and used to be keep me clued up on fleet developments. A40 was well known – used to operate sometimes on our local route, service 61, Aigburth Vale to Seaforth. This would be around 1958-60?
Tony Howard
28/12/13 – 08:08
Correction to my comment 02/01/13 – 07:23. The Saro-bodied Guy Arab LUF demonstrator still exists and apparently has always had a 6HLW engine, much to my surprise.
Peter Williamson
28/12/13 – 08:37
Going back, again, to Peter’s post nearly a year ago, it was a policy decision to withdraw from the passenger market but there was a post-script. Saunders-Roe eventually became a Cammell-Laird possession – and therefore in common ownership with MCW. MCW, not for the first time since closing Weymann down, found itself short of capacity. It solved this by putting orders for Atlanteans for Devon General to Saunders-Roe.
David Oldfield
10/04/14 – 17:55
Picking up on the later MCW/Saunders-Roe connection, Brighton’s 1968 PD3s were also built at Beaumaris – there’s a picture of a couple under construction in a 1971 Brighton Corporation Transport fleet history published by a body called E.L.P.G Enterprises (Eastbourne Lion Preservation Group?) It also states that only 21 other bus bodies, apart from these, were built during the short-lived return to bus body building on Anglesey – “ten for the home market” I assume the DG Atlanteans David refers to “and eleven for overseas” – no idea what those were.
Michael Keeley
13/04/14 – 07:20
I’ve now unearthed my copy of the Bryngold book on Saro referred to above; answers to some of the above queries from that book are as follows: a) 1968 Beaumaris home market production was 5 PD3s for Brighton and 10 Atlanteans for Devon General, as stated above. The other 11 vehicles were bodied under licence from the Superior Coach Company of America, on Bedford VAM chassis. The first was in the Demonstration Park at the 1968 Commercial Motor Show,no other details given; the other 10 were assembled on left hand drive VAMs and sent to the Middle East for use by an oil company. The final passenger carrying body produced at Beaumaris was a Superior body, on a Ford D series truck chassis, owner unknown. b) Apparently Leyland approached Saro to build an all aluminium lightweight body for what became STF 90. No reason is given for Leyland approaching Saro. ULW is given as 6-17-3. c) The first double deck bodies built at Beaumaris were rebodied TD3/4/5s for Southdown – AUF 660/1, BUF215/7/28/35, EUF 183/6/99, with features specified by Southdown. d) Maidstone and Dist JKM 901-40 were built at Beaumaris in 1948, the last vehicles to the pre-war Short Bros design. e) Maidstone GKR 741 was the first double deck Rivaloy body, resembling the RT body. f) OKM 317 – is given as used by M&D as DH500, later to CB Law of Prestwick, and Dodds of Troon. g) RKE540 Saro body and underframe – given as Gardner 5HLW engine,David Brown 5 speed gearbox, ULW 5-17-3. h) Devon General ETT 995 was the only Saro Light Six – it is in preservation in the West Country. I can thoroughly recommend the book, a fitting tribute to Saro, and to Gerald Truran, who researched it, but sadly passed away before it could be published.
Bob Gell
13/04/14 – 18:24
The Bedford VAM with the licences built body that appeared at the 1968 show was a right hand drive facsimile of an American school bus . MCW hoped to interest local authority education departments and independent operators but both markets were disinterested as it was cheaper to use non dedicated vehicles. Also, by any UK standard, the vehicle was spartan.
Phil Blinkhorn
15/04/14 – 10:59
Here’s a frontal view of Maidstone & District Bristol K5G DH445 (GKR 741) from 1942, with a 1950 Saunders H56R ‘Rivaloy’ body (ex Chatham & District). Ray Stringer mentions that body was based on the RT body from behind the front bulkhead, even to the interior trim and top rear emergency exit and wondered if the body had ben tucked into the RT production run, or was an experimental body using Rivaloy construction? Bob Gell quoted that Maidstone GKR 741 was the first Rivaloy body, resembling the RT body. Unfortunately, the view does not show the body behind the front bulkhead, but certainly does not reveal any RT resemblance at the front. What a shame they skimped on putting a PV radiator on it at re-bodying. Definitely a case of spoiling the ship for a ha-p’orth of tar!
Chris Hebbron
17/04/15 – 09:37
Liverpool’s A40 always had a mystique about it, more so than its companion A39, because it was unpainted. A40’s interior had a much more luxurious feel than the other 98 Regent IIIs in the batch and even A39, perhaps partly due to its moquette seats, something highly unusual for the Liverpool fleet. Good to know that the vehicle is preserved.
Mr Anon (lpl)
10/02/17 – 16:59
As a young lad who couldn’t wait to work for YTC (Yorkshire Traction) I well remember the company taking delivery of two dozen Saro Cubs GHE 2 to GHE 25 1002/1025 and were put into service immediately in Battleship Grey but with fleet numbers and Yorkshire Traction emblasened on the side. Evidently the paint shop workers at Saro were on strike and YTC were in the process of disposing of an old fleet of PS1’s so they went into service in grey but were later called in and painted in reverse livery where the main colour was Yorkshire Cream then later to Traction Red.
ELJ Tracky Lad
06/09/18 – 05:32
Reference the sliver bus in the above photo. These buses were used on route 510 limited stop. We called them slice bullets because they were fast and had good heaters. I felt like a king when I drove this bus on route from Liverpool central to Prescot. Many a person got on the bus but they tried to get off nearl killing them selves when the driver had to stop at the traffic lights. I passed my Psv on a crash box, the instructor used to take out the window behind the driver and shout at you get off the brake, feather the clutch and so on that why most of us are now deaf.
Mike Grant
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
31/12/20 – 06:35
This picture (not mine) exemplifies how similar this one-off body was to the RT body.
Bradford Corporation 1952 AEC Regent III 9613E East Lancs. H35/26R
The trend for concealing the front ends of halfcab buses underneath what was to often later referred to as a ‘tin front’ was initiated in the immediate postwar period by BMMO with its homemade D5 model. Shortly afterwards, neighbouring Birmingham City Transport decided to follow suit and a different design of their own was hatched which was first fitted to a batch of Crossley DD42’s, but then also to subsequent Daimler CVG6’s and Guy Arab IV’s, giving the three different makes a totally uniform appearance. It seems likely that Crossley produced this particular design, which became known as the ‘New Look’ – a term then currently in use for the latest Christian Dior womens’ fashion styles. Daimler and Guy then adopted the design as the standard option on their models generally, but no more Crossleys were so fitted. However, Crossley had passed into the hands of the ACV Group, which owned AEC, and around 1952/53 a number of Regent III’s were fitted with the ‘New Look’ front – the customers being Devon General, Rhondda Transport South Wales, Hull and Bradford. However, clearly not wishing their products to resemble Daimlers and Guys, AEC soon got to work on producing a unique design of their own, which first appeared on the Regent V, then later graced Bridgemasters and Renowns, and even a few Regent III’s for Sheffield. Bradford City Transport 82 was one of a batch of 40 (66-105, HKW 66-105) delivered in 1952/53. Originally H33/26R, they had a couple more seats inserted upstairs in 1957. It is seen here under the trolleybus overhead in Glydegate (which no longer exists) – an extremely short street linking Little Horton Lane with Morley Street opposite the Alhambra Theatre. Just behind on the extreme right is the newly opened Museum of Photography, Film and Television. 82 was withdrawn in 1971, and after a long period in storage was acquired for preservation and magnificently restored by Darren Hunt and Jim Speed. Nowadays it is part of the Aire Valley Transport Collection.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
31/03/13 – 08:58
Just a historical puzzler… when was the the National Museum of Photography etc actually opened? After 1971, possibly. It stood empty for a long time, intended I think for use as a theatre. It became known as “Wardley’s Folly” after the City Engineer who planned it. Then the Museum came along, looking for premises, and the rest is history! In the early 50’s bus bodies got very smart, part possibly of a move to better design inspired by the Festival of Britain. The period piece on this one is the slopey windscreen- a Birmingham hangover?
Joe
31/03/13 – 09:23
It’s my recollection that it was South Wales, rather than Rhondda, which had ‘tin-front’ Regent IIIs. I’ll stand corrected, of course. An interesting thing about the twelve Devon General examples is that after sale three turned up in West Yorkshire (2 Ledgard, 1 Longstaff) and I believe the Ledgard ones (in their short time with Ledgard, of course) regularly worked into Bradford from Leeds via Pudsey. A further three worked into what was at the time West Yorkshire, from what was Nottinghamshire (with Leon).
David Call
31/03/13 – 12:39
The Museum, now the National Media Museum, opened on June 16 1983. I think John is correct that the tin front came out of Errwood Rd as a result of the collaboration with Birmingham. There are a very few minor changes, just as Leyland tinkered with the BMMO design for its tin front.
Phil Blinkhorn
31/03/13 – 12:40
You’re right David of course, it was South Wales and not Rhondda – I don’t know where that came from ! I remember both the Ledgard and Longstaff’s ex-Devon General AEC’s, I rode on all three and they were most wonderful buses – especially in the sound effects department as I recall. The Longstaff one’s aural delights were a little stifled though, as following a brief blast up Webster Hill out of Dewsbury it was never really able to proceed beyond a steady amble around the back lanes of Ravensthorpe and Northorpe.
John Stringer
31/03/13 – 17:45
David – sorry to be pedantic – it was not West Yorkshire (a 1974 invention) but the good old West Riding of Yorkshire – later to become (in that area) another 1974 invention – South Yorkshire. The old West Riding was vast, stretching from Goole in the East to Bentham and the outskirts of Lancaster in the West and from the area you describe in the South to Dent and Sedbergh in the North
Gordon Green
31/03/13 – 17:46
As an eleven year old schoolboy, I remember with great excitement when some of these first “new look” AEC Regent IIIs entered service on the 1 November 1952. These were the first true “Humpidge” buses after prior taste of C T Humpidge influence with the Crossley re-bodied trolleybuses that had appeared in the previous March. I can confirm that the “tin fronts” were made and fitted at Crossley Motors at Errwood Park. I do recall seeing the final 15 chassis (91 -105) with “tin fronts” stored in the Tin Sheds at Thornbury as these buses entered service later in 1953. These final 15 buses did differ in appearance to the previous 25 (66 -90) buses as these were the first to have a blue roof in place of the mid grey which was the style used by the previous General Manager C R Tattam.
Richard Fieldhouse
01/04/13 – 07:50
The ‘new look’ or tin front certainly made buses so adorned look much more modern in comparison to those fitted with traditional radiators. Rochdale had a batch of Regent III’s fitted with virtually identical East Lancs bodies dating from 1951 but they had the traditional AEC exposed radiator and looked to be from a different generation than the Bradford vehicles despite being only two years older. I always found it interesting how the two adjacent Yorkshire cities of Bradford and Leeds had markedly differing vehicle policies. Bradford went early on for tin fronts and then froward entrances on the large fleet of Regent V’s while Leeds ploughed the traditional furrow with 7’6″ wide buses until the 30 footers came, exposed radiators and rear open platforms for many years. The small batch of forward entrance Daimler CVG6’s bought by Leeds was I understand due to persuasion from Bradford to run forward entrance buses on the joint Leeds-Bradford route.
Philip Halstead
01/04/13 – 07:51
If my memory serves me correctly, Glydegate was the last road in the UK to be newly wired for trolleybuses coming after the final Teesside extension. It served to allow inbound trolleybuses from Wibsey and Buttershaw to cope with road works and lasted until later in 1971 when the services were withdrawn.
Ken Aveyard
01/04/13 – 07:53
Richard – I well remember these vehicles as from new they were the mainstay of services 79 & 80 (Heaton & Little Horton via Heaton) and I used them daily to School. (One old penny half fare from Heaton to Lister Park Gates !) I always suspected that these new vehicles were so allocated for two reasons – one being that Heaton in those days was ‘posh’ (I wasn’t) and secondly Chaceley Humpidge lived in Heaton where he was a lay preacher at my local Church. A couple of years ago I renewed my acquaintance with 82 (which each year provides a shuttle bus service in Haworth for the annual ‘Forties’ war re-enactment weekend) by taking ride. Nostalgia indeed.
Gordon Green
01/04/13 – 07:54
Liverpool had some Regent IIIs with Crossley bodies with this radiator fitted.
Jim Hepburn
01/04/13 – 07:58
An interesting sidelight arises from Richard’s post and my earlier one on this thread. He refers to Errwood Park, I refer to Errwood Rd. When Crossley originally bought the site it was referred to as Errwood Park, though its location on the Stockport side of the boundary is across what is now Crossley Rd from Errwood Park which still exists and is in Manchester. In those days Crossley Rd was an un-named thoroughfare dividing Cringle Fields from Errwood Park and crossed the boundary between Stockport and Manchester, leading from Stockport Rd at Lloyd Rd to Errwood Rd itself. The Crossley site, bounded by the railway line and Cringle Fields, which eventually became a large number of football pitches on which I played many a match on a cold Sunday morning, was originally part of Cringle Fields a piece of open grazing land between Errwood Rd and the railway, so it may be assumed that Crossley wanted to give some elegance to their address after leaving the very industrial sounding Pottery Lane, Gorton and Cringle Fields sounded too agricultural whereas Errwood Park was more reminiscent of a country park! Most people I was brought up with in the adjacent area of Heaton Moor referred to Crossley’s Errwood Rd, though there was no entrance from that thoroughfare without traversing Crossley Rd! Fairey Aviation and later Fairey Engineering which occupied the site at various times always referred to it as Heaton Chapel Works, as did Stevenson’s Box Works who moved in after Crossley closed, Heaton Chapel being the suburb of Stockport in which the works was located. I wonder if the Errwood Rd usage was actually put about by Crossley whose very existence in the bus world was so dependant on Manchester’s patronage in the 1930s as Errwood Rd was in Manchester whereas the boundary between Manchester and Stockport ran along their wall built to divide the factory from the rump of Cringle Fields, Manchester. A 1970 copy of the Manchester A-Z interestingly shows the site all within Stockport with Errwood Park Works shown as the major part of the site yet the site where most buses were built is shown still as “Motor Car Works”! Dig the bones out of that.
Phil Blinkhorn
02/04/13 – 08:17
Philip H makes a good point about the divergent vehicle policies of Bradford and Leeds. I think I’m right in saying that Leeds had Regent Vs, but with exposed radiators. Why on earth would an operator wish to remove such a graceful and well proportioned front end to revert to the ‘old fashioned’ look of an exposed AEC radiator. Nothing wrong with the exposed AEC rad, but surely it had had its day by the time the Regent Vs came along.
Petras409
02/04/13 – 08:17
The Liverpool Regent IIIs that Jim H refers to certainly had concealed radiators, but while the grille was identical, the front end design was completely different, using a full-width flat front, as seen in this view of A40. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk
Alan Murray-Rust
02/04/13 – 08:18
The Liverpool Regent III’s had a different tin front unique to Liverpool. It was virtually a full width bonnet and incorporated the front mudguards more on the lines of the Leyland BMMO front than the Birmingham design. There’s a picture of one of the Saunders-Roe bodied buses with this front under the Liverpool link on this website.
Philip Halstead
02/04/13 – 08:19
Ken, Somewhere in my mind is the idea that Glydegate was the last public highway in the UK to be wired for trolleybus operation. The road layout at this point was a gyratory: Little Horton Lane between Princess Way and Glydegate was one way from Princess Way, and Morley Street was one way from Glydegate to Princess Way. Glydegate acted as the road connecting the top of the one-way sections of Little Horton Lane and Morley Street. According to Stanley King’s book ‘Bradford Corporation Trolleybuses’ Glydegate came into use on 18 May, 1969. The shot of number 82 on service 11 to Queensbury must have been before 1 March 1971 when the services were recast and the joint services to Halifax came into operation.
Kevin Hey
02/04/13 – 12:08
Leeds stuck with exposed radiators until the manger changed in 1961 this was due in some part to ease of maintenance. After that all buses were tin fronted or rear engined Philip mentions the front entrance Daimlers these 5 buses were considered so non standard they were offered for sale in the late sixties In the event they hung on to be the only Leeds buses to be allocated to all four divisions of the PTE and the only front engined Leeds buses to wear PTE livery 574 has been restored and often appears at rallies.
Chris Hough
02/04/13 – 13:03
There is a picture on this site of a Doncaster Regent 5 looking like a 3 with exposed radiator. They stuck with them, too the last front engined Titans in the mid 60’s had exposed radiators like the recent Stockport posting. I think it was also a sort of macho thing like Atkinson lorries.
Joe
02/04/13 – 14:50
The use of exposed radiators was by no means a “macho thing”. Proponents of the exposed radiator point to easier maintenance access, better driver visibility and better cooling, so much so that when Daimler insisted it would not provide exposed radiators and Manchester was not impressed with the tin front offered, it eventually designed its own concealed radiator for its Daimlers which was all but a reversion to the dimensions of the exposed radiator and was such a success that it was adopted by the manufacturer as its standard.
Phil Blinkhorn
02/04/13 – 14:50
I stand corrected over the Liverpool Regent IIIs. Well it is over 50 years since I’ve seen one!
Jim Hepburn
02/04/13 – 16:34
I still reckon an exposed radiator was seen as a proper “man’s bus” (I’m talking in the unliberated past!) like an Atkinson or a Mack and pretty fronts went with heaters, power steering, trafficators and no climbing into the cab. (Remove tongue from cheek)
Joe
02/04/13 – 17:58
I agree with Joe – tin fronts = mutton dressed up as lamb if you ask me!
Stephen Ford
03/04/13 – 07:50
There doesn’t seem to be that much (anything?) on Glydegate at the time the photograph was taken! For the past few years I’ve driven past a similar street in Bradford, which amounted to no more than a left-turn slip road at a set of traffic lights – no buildings on either side – but retained its street name. I think Chester Street (of WYRCC bus station fame) may still exist in this sort of vestigial format – though I’m not certain that the name remains. From the first time I saw one I always thought that there was “something” about the Manchester-fronted CVGs of Bradford and Huddersfield (Leeds was unexplored territory in those days!): as much as I tried to stay loyal to AEC/Hebble I still have to admit that – much like Clodagh Rogers – those Manchester-fronted CVGs looked classy. Halifax? Sorry, your exposed-radiator PD2/3s didn’t even get a look in . . . you should have stuck with Regent Vs – attractive enough in the Susan George mold, but not a patch on Clodagh! And I still can’t work out whether the St Helens front on Bradford’s PD3s was “industrial” or just plain ugly – like, like . . . Anyway, for Glydegate to be able to claim that it was last road to be wired for trolleybus operation seems to be stretching things for was by then just part of a gyratory system.
Philip Rushworth
I have very fond memories of conducting 82 even though I never had the pleasure of working for BCT. “Well then what’s he talking about” you may understandably ask !! This superb vehicle played a welcome and major part in the 40th anniversary commemoration running day on 14th October 2007 marking the sad end of the Samuel Ledgard era. The fifteen hour running extravaganza culminated in a simulation of the 23:00 hours departure from Leeds to Ilkley via Guiseley – a journey performed very appropriately by the preserved Bradford RT – the real thing forty years earlier featured HLX 157, a Ledgard RT, which ran out of fuel a mile short of the Ilkley terminus. That circumstance, unheard of normally in Ledgard days, remains a mystery to this day. The Bradford RT was made to simulate a similar failure at the same spot. In 1967 the RT was replaced by Ledgard’s own 1953 U, a Mark V Regent, but in 2007 Bradford 82 played the part having “been summoned from Otley depot.” So there we have it, 82 completed the journey to Ilkley and then operated the late running 2355 from Ilkley to Otley. I had been conducting all day from 09:00, mainly on the superbly restored MXX 232 (RLH 32) so very kindly provided in perfect Samuel Ledgard livery by Timebus of St. Alban’s. The feeling of “deja vu” in that last couple of hours was almost unbearable, but nevertheless I felt very honoured to be asked to do it, wearing my genuine Ledgard uniform and using an actual Otley depot Setright which I own.
Chris Youhill
03/04/13 – 11:43
I always considered Hull’s “tin-fronted” Weymann bodied AEC Regent IIIs (336-341) to be the city’s best looking buses until the dual door Atlanteans came along in 1969. The overall body profile combined with the typical upswept bottom panels and the front end resulted in a very handsome bus one of which can be seen here.
Malcolm Wells
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
05/04/13 – 05:48
This discussion makes me wonder if there would ever have been such a thing as a tin front if it hadn’t been for Midland Red uniquely combining the roles of chassis designer, body designer and operator. Being in the vanguard of underfloor-engined development, which revolutionised the appearance of single deckers, it was probably inevitable that they would do something with their double deckers as well. Then I suppose BCT, seeing all these modern apparitions coming in and out of their city, felt obliged to keep their end up by doing something similar, and it all took off from there. I remember being very impressed as a youngster with the tin-fronted PD2s of Oldham and Southport. But ultimately, as so often happens, something which was designed specifically to create an appearance of modernity in its own time ends up rapidly becoming very dated.
Sheffield Corporation 1948 AEC Regent III Weymann H30/26R
The three batches of Weymann bodied AEC Regent III’s, comprising forty vehicles in all, were, to my mind at least, arguably the most attractive of all the double deckers taken into stock by Sheffield Transport Department in the immediate post-war period. The initial batch of ten, 527-536 (JWB 727/828/729-736) probably had the edge, with their half drop windows instead of the top sliders fitted to the other two deliveries of fifteen vehicles each, 558-572 (JWE 858-872) and 250-264 (KWE 250-264), one of the latter batch which is seen here. The rear ends of these buses always looked particularly attractive to me, with the well radiused top corners to the platform window, not to mention that classic of an emergency window upstairs. And of course, the outswept bottom panels of these Weymann bodies only added to their overall elegant appearance. It was an overcast afternoon in July, 1961 when 258 was recorded on film, having just swept through the doors of Herries Road garage, about to take up service on one of the 94 group of workers services from the large Southey Green and Parson Cross housing estates to the miles of steelworks at Brightside and Templeborough. Later that same year, 258, along with sister Regents 251/2/4, were withdrawn and sold to Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport for further service, a couple of the quartet lasting a further seven years, not being finally withdrawn from the seaside until 1968, having given a very creditable twenty year service life.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Careless
04/06/13 – 18:05
The transfers became Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport numbers 41 (KWE 258), 48 (KWE 251), 49 (KWE 252) and 50 (KWE 254). The intervening numbers 42-47 were occupied by similarly Weymann-bodied Regent IIs ex London Transport (HGC 233, 222, 227, 228, 219 and 225 respectively).
Stephen Ford
04/06/13 – 18:06
Classic AEC, classic Weymann, classic Sheffield, shear perfection; or am I prejudiced? Ah, so what?
David Oldfield
05/06/13 – 06:07
527 – 536 also didn’t have the out-swept skirt and were delivered without the smudge roof. Regrettably, I had little contact with these fine beasts as Herries buses didn’t penetrate our corner of Sheffield until the 38 was replaced by the 42/53 cross city service. Occasionally the Roberts and Cravens did rush hour duty. Where would these Weymanns have been originally? Town Head Street? [Herries Road depot was not built until 1952.]
David Oldfield
05/06/13 – 18:04
David, when they were new, the initial batch 527-536 were at Leadmill Road, and all the others went to Bramall Lane garage. I remember riding on the 558-572 batch a lot around the time I took the picture, when they were working on the Petre Street-City-Graves Park service 34, some of my most enjoyable bus rides ever!
Dave Careless
06/06/13 – 06:16
Now that you mention it, I do remember them on Graves Park 34s. [Who would have done 74s? Wasn’t there some inter-working?] I was only 8 when that picture was taken. I wasn’t let loose, on my own, on a bus for another two years – and then only under controlled circumstances.
David Oldfield
06/06/13 – 17:08
Many of these Weymanns were indeed at Bramall Lane Depot. They serviced among others, 34 Graves Park/Petre Street (Reform Chapel) which was a replacement tram route from about 1925. The AEC 111s mostly on this route were normally with Northern Coach Builders squarer profile, which I personally preferred. I preferred them because of the interior lights, (which were ribbed squarish), the top deck emergency window (shaped like a loaf of Hovis) & the fact my dad drove this route daily for many years! The route 35 to Holythorpe Rise used the Weymanns pictured. The 33 route to Hemsworth (in my time), were what I thought were AEC 111s Park Royal with nice interiors, including a 1″ ish green band between windows & roof downstairs. This was my favourite at the time. Since getting back into buses, they could have been Cravens. The 36 route was a rush hour duplicate to Heeley Green. On this route you had anything with 4 wheels & an engine. This was my preferred transport to school. It could be pre-war, post war, single or double deckers. You never had the same bus 2 days running, heaven. The other route on the via Bramall Lane route was the 38 to Norton.
Andy Fisher
06/06/13 – 17:08
Upstairs front offside, of course, was always the preferred option, but a close second was the lower saloon nearside front seat, peering over into the cab and watching every action of the driver, manhandling the pre-selector lever through the gears as we bowled along the Wicker. Leaping off just before we came to a stop at Reform Chapel terminus at the Petre Street end of the route, and watching the conductor lean out and wind the blinds over the platform round to City and Hollythorpe Rise never ceased to fascinate. Happy summer days.
Dave Careless
07/06/13 – 05:50
No Park Royals between 1935 and 1955 (Monocoaches) or 1963 (Regent V front loaders). Could be Cravens but the Roberts had a more Park Royal profile. The 38 was originally Lowedges Road. It only became Norton when the 42/53 were redirected to Lowedges Road from Woodseats and Graves Park. I’m sure Bramhall Lane had closed by the time Norton took on the 38 route number. I think my favourites were Cravens and Weymann in that order. It would be another four or five years before my all time favourite (Roes) appeared for the first time. This time of year (summer) I would make a trek to the 38 (Lowedges Road) terminus at about this time (1800) to do the same, Dave. They were principally the OWE, RWB and SWE Regent IIIs – Roe, Roe and Weymann.
David Oldfield
08/06/13 – 07:56
Andy, square ribbed light fittings – yes, we had them in Nottingham too (and indeed Bartons no. 906, a second hand Leyland PD2 acquired from Yorkshire Woollen about 1961, had them as well). I’m away from home on holiday at the moment, but on my other computer at home I have a selection of “light” pictures (a strange but innocent fascination of mine!) and will post a photo when I get home.
Stephen Ford
08/06/13 – 17:50
My fascination does not stop at lights. The flat wheel rims of many buses compared to the dished ones on Leylands, (preferred) the Leyland wheel chrome rims compared to the AECs & Crossleys. The fact buses without chrome rims look awful & dated, shapes & styles of opening windows, different dashboards & last but not least rear emergency exit windows upstairs. Does this make me weird?
Andy Fisher
09/06/13 – 15:27
Andy. Weird? Not in the least. Emergency windows and wheel nut rings are the stuff of legend. For instance, not only the classic Weymann emergency window in the picture, which I referred to in the caption, but perhaps my all-time favourite, the two-piece rear upstairs window on the post-war Leyland bodies, to go along with the Leyland wheel trims to which you refer. As always, the devil is in the details. If somebody was to put out an expensive hardback volume on emergency window design, I’d be first in line to buy it. Or perhaps you would; hopefully they’d sell more than two copies. Agreed that buses without wheel trims tend to look unfinished somehow. Oddly enough, even though LT painted both wheels and trims brown, a Routemaster with brown wheels and no wheel trims, even though they weren’t chrome, just doesn’t look right. Thank goodness the LT trolleybus department operated under a different set of rules, and maintained the chrome wheel trims on those magnificent vehicles right to the end.
Dave Careless
17/06/13 – 06:47
Just having a look in my books, both Leyland & AECs did have rear centre hub adornments, instead of the 6 or 8 nuts. The Leyland was especially nice with rings & the Leyland logo. The AECs seem to just have the AEC triangle & letters similar to the radiator badge. Looking in my tram book, there is a picture of Haymarket from around 1936. Quite identifiable were the Weymann emergency exit, but also in the picture were rear emergency exit windows in the sausage shape windows similar to later Roes. If we did not have Roes in 1936, can anyone help me identify them please?
Andy Fisher
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
19/06/13 – 08:00
As promised, here is an interior picture showing the square fluted light fittings. Sadly these are mounted upside down (!) as they always were on Nottingham’s big fleet of 1950 trolleybuses, and the later Park Royal AEC Regents. The correct way was with the securing recess at the bottom edge – or at least, I always thought they looked more balanced that way.
Stephen Ford
19/06/13 – 14:33
Correct again Steven, these were the lights I remember. Going back to the sausage shape emergency exits, could these be Cravens or Roberts?
Andy Fisher
20/06/13 – 07:13
Either, but at at a guess more likely to be Cravens.
David Oldfield
20/06/13 – 07:15
Strange how there is a natural order of things and it’s not always the way things were designed to be! Whatever the ‘designed’ way here, I agree with you, Stephen! Of course, you can’t argue with ’round’ which is how I recall covered lights! However, shades were always better than bare bulbs. It was always a course of annoyance to me when they took the shades off the 1938 UndergrounD stock. Each one of those must have been a time-consuming conversion, when studied.
Sheffield Corporation 1953 AEC Regent III 9631S Roe H33/25R
It’s November 1967 and Sheffield B fleet 2174 is at Central Bus Station ready for an hours journey round the City on the 9 Inner Circle route which is a category A service. The Inner Circle traversed the older inner part of the City through much industry and terraced housing. There were ten of these buses in the batch which were the first genuine 9613S models to enter Sheffield service. The preceding 1952 batch were actually the 9613A version modified in 1953 to synchromesh gearbox specification. 2174 and its fellows were long associated with Leadmill Road Garage being regular performers on the Bradway group of category B services. Platform A of Central Bus Station was on Pond Street itself and the bridge to the rear of the bus gave pedestrian access to the bus station from an elevated walkway on the opposite side of the road. Although much modified, Central Bus Station still exists on the same site still with loading bays where 2174 is standing. The footbridge though has long gone.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
03/10/13 – 08:51
Lovely buses with their Roe bodywork. Shallower windows than the Pullmans of the previous year but with subtly different upper windows from the “standard” (most common) Roe bodies found on the Regent III, Regent V, PD2 and PD3 deliveries between 1955 and 1960. [The front of the upper deck was also more raked.] Only ten of these, and only nine Pullmans, but along with the subsequent Regent Vs they seemed ubiquitous in the Greenhill/Bradway area of my youth. How I remember their musical gearboxes ans raucous exhausts.
David Oldfield
03/10/13 – 08:52
You make mention of category A & B services. I’d be interested in learning what these refer to and were there any other categories?
Paul
03/10/13 – 14:37
Paul. These were explained a year or two back on another post. Yorkshire was the home of several Joint Omnibus Committees (JOCs). They combined Corporation and Railway ownership to give regional services – in the same way that BET and Tilling fleets normally did. [In those regulated days, corporation routes were restricted to the town boundary.] Sheffield, unusually, had three fleets: A fleet owned by the Corporation; the B fleet jointly owned by the Corporation and British Railways’ Board; C fleet owned by British Railways’ Board. The JOCs were set up in the ’20s (1927/8 in Sheffield) – originally with LNER and LMS railways. Sheffield was continuously expanding from 1928 to 1974, hence the “extra” fleet. A fleet (to early twentieth century town boundaries); B fleet (covering territories taken over – primarily from West Riding CC and Derbyshire CC); C fleet for long distances (including Chesterfield, Gainsborough and Manchester – as well as Peak District with towns such as Bakewell and Buxton).
David Oldfield
03/10/13 – 14:37
Paul Sheffield had three categories of service These were the A which were within the city boundary and were wholly run by the corporation The B services which were joint with British RAil and covered the outer suburbs and finally the C services which were wholly the preserve of British Rail and were long distance services to places like Leeds and Manchester. Each group of services had a fleet to run them all run by the general manager B and C fleet buses did not carry the city coat of arms just the fleet name Sheffield The C fleet was in some ways the most interesting as due to British Rail involvement Sheffield could buy Bristol and ECW products. They never bought Bristols but did buy Leyland Leopards with ECW MW style bodies and ECW bodied Leyland Titans. The legal lettering on the C fleet showed the owner as the British Railways Board Although British Rail had involvement in Halifax Todmorden and Huddersfield this was to a far lesser extent than the Sheffield arrangements. The agreement was wound up in the seventies
Chris Hough.
03/10/13 – 14:39
Love the way the bodywork is built flush with the offside of radiator, RT-style. I always thought they looked smarter like this.
Chris Hebbron
03/10/13 – 14:41
Those straight-through exhausts were really something; the bark that the VWE-registered ‘tin front’ Regent III’s made, climbing up Firth Park Road past the park and the boating pool, on their way to High Green on the 73, is a sound I shall never forget. Elegant to look at too, especially in the Roe style livery as new, with dark blue window surrounds and blue front end. Truly marvellous machines.
Dave Careless
03/10/13 – 14:45
The stand on platform A where the bus stands, was not the no9 stand. This was on the end of platform B, virtually 180 degrees in the opposite direction. I used to catch them on my way home from the Army Cadets in Endcliffe. The nos 8 & 9 only had Circular on the destination blind, not City, so this may have been a duplicate, parked up ready for going on another route. In 1967 it would have been old & with all the Atlanteans we had, unlikely to have been on regular daily routes. By 1967 they were mostly using single decker’s on the 8 & 9 routes, (I used to catch these to work in Broomhill each morning). Not sure when, but they had Marshall & later Alexanders, occasionally a Fanfare. I think the Totley bus (Category B) also ran from platform A, they had these kind of buses on that route during the 50s & early 60s. I do remember them having a lovely booming exhaust sound going up the hills. The stand pictured was for the 33, 34, 35 & 36 routes (which I used throughout my school life) towards Heeley & beyond.
Andy Fisher
03/10/13 – 15:42
Expanding the comments by David and Chris, buses could run on any route, as the photograph shows, to meet traffic requirements. It was not unknown to find an A fleet bus on a B or C route, especially at times of holiday duplication into the Peak District. There must have been a complex re-charging system and sometimes mileage accumulated by one section and “owed” to another was run off.
Geoff Kerr
03/10/13 – 15:43
Andy. You are right that the Inner Circular and Totley were originally inside the bus station on Platform B, but I have a niggling gut feeling that one direction did eventually end up on Platform A. Deckers were used on the 8/9 until 1968 – I used it to get to King Ted’d from 1964-1971. In 1968, the early single door Swifts replaced deckers on regular day time service. They had Park Royal bodywork. [The only Marshalls ever bought were the W reg AN68 Atlanteans.] Alexander Leopards occasionally appeared at Rush-hour – as did early Leopards, ECW and Burlingham as well as Weymann Fanfare. I feel that, partly because of the age, 2174 may have been doing a rush-hour extra and that the City may be to indicate it is terminating there.
David Oldfield
04/10/13 – 06:18
Thanks to David, Chris & Geoff for the info. Sheffield was clearly an interesting place to be bus wise back then.
Paul
04/10/13 – 06:18
2174 was originally part of a batch of ten delivered to the “B” fleet in 1953 which comprised numbers 168-177. According to CC Hall, they were renumbered 2168-2177 in 1967 to accommodate computer accounting and as the batch is given as being withdrawn during 1967-1968, presumably 2174 is nearing the end of its days.
Here’s a picture of 170 looking absolutely superb when new in the paint scheme used on Roe bodies before the general manager of the 1960’s decided he knew better! Photo courtesy of The Tom Robinson Collection
John Darwent
04/10/13 – 06:19
In connection with the C fleet do not forget that they also ran to Bradford on service 66 joint with Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woollen. In the 1960s I was a conductor with YWD and worked on this route. Sometimes our bus would develop a fault at the Sheffield end and then we would be given a STD machine as a change over. What a treat this would be and we did not want to give up the bus. I remember an occasion when a STD bus broke down in Heckmondwike and the crew were given one of their old Leyland PD2s as a change over. I suppose they thought they had seen the last of them.
Philip Carlton
04/10/13 – 08:41
But the Sheffield buses “given” to Woollen were not time expired. Just another “political” move. They were owned by the Railways and as that system had been superseded by NBC, the owner had not changed, just the operator. [Yes they were approaching the end of their lives.]
David Oldfield
04/10/13 – 11:11
In addition to YWD getting some ex Sheffield C fleet vehicles Halifax also received a number of Leyland Leopards with bodywork by Burlingham while Todmorden gained a trio of ECW bodied Leopards by 1971 all were in the Calderdale fleet. The Burlingham bodied ones did not last long but the ECW bodied trio passed to the PTE in 1974.
Chris Hough
04/10/13 – 17:23
I have long been aware of the Railway involvement at Sheffield, Halifax, Todmorden and Huddersfield and some of the above posts (and those previously) indicate how vehicles might be borrowed and mileage adjustments made or balanced. What I do wonder is how other aspects of the operation worked. For example were all the road staff employed by one body (presumably the Corporation), were they interchangeable between areas, and indeed how did the depot and maintenance and also the admin operation work. One can imagine a most complex charging and recharging system with lots of room for argument.
Gordon Green
05/10/13 – 08:32
I have said as much before, but the place to stand was Snig Hill, waiting to cross to Castle Market. Barking AEC’s- some had got it just right, others chuffed like valve or governor bounce (those were the days)- but also the tin front Leylands with a seemingly continuous blast of compressed exhaust from a smaller pipe. The heat & blast would sweep across your legs. I remember a man shouting “That’ll singe yer nylons luv…”
Joe
05/10/13 – 08:35
Gordon I don’t know about Sheffield but in Todmorden there was only one depot while in Huddersfield the two depots were a motor bus depot for the JOC and a depot for the corporation owned trolleys (Huddersfield had no motor buses until the early sixties). Not only was there two depots in Huddersfield there was also two liveries a streamlined one (red and cream) for the corporation and a red one with thin cream bands for the JOC. Halifax also has two depots at Elmwood one of which was nominally the corporations while the other was for the JOC. The Halifax livery was a standard layout for both fleets.
Chris Hough
05/10/13 – 15:40
I bought a book yesterday showing Pond Street bus station before it was covered, all scaffolding poles & corrugated iron roofs. It had a picture of the Totley bus stand, near the end of platform B. It was an early 60s picture. The bus was an AEC 3?, with what looked like a pre 1945 Weymann body, with the smaller drivers front window. Did buses have a milometer? If not, how did management structure servicing dates? it would make it easier to use B & C category buses on A routes & vice versa.
Andy Fisher
06/10/13 – 07:55
Andy. If it was pre-war, it would have been a Regent (I). The AECs had a speedo and one other gauge. There would have been a mileage counter on the speedo. The immediate post-war Weymanns were 1947/8 Regent IIIs. I can remember Pond Street as you describe it before the mid-fifties redevelopment – as shown above on the post. [The vehicle behind 2174 – on the 71 – is almost certainly one of Greenland’s PDR1/1/Weymann (or MCCW?). They also used the first Fleetlines (951-3) on this route.
David Oldfield
06/10/13 – 07:57
When the JOC was wound up, Sheffield had five depots – Leadmill, Townhead Street, East Bank, Greenland and Herries. The last three were purpose built for buses. I remember Townhead St being closed in the late 60s but I believe the other four survived at deregulation. The JOCs did not employ any staff – crews and office staff were all employed by the Corporation, which also owned the garages.
Geoff Kerr
06/10/13 – 14:22
I notice that 2174 has an advertisement for Wigfalls. This was a chain of shops selling TVs and other electrical goods with their head office in Sheffield. We rented our TV from the Dewsbury branch and the service was first class. I suppose their demise was due to the rise of PC World/Currys. Don’t get me started about their lack of service. A month ago I bought a new lap top from them only for the hard drive to pack up. On returning the machine to the shop they had the cheek to say it would cost 50 quid to put right until I quoted the Sale of Goods act then they said it would be repaired under the manufactures warranty. Come back Wigfalls!
Philip Carlton
12/10/13 – 16:27
I remember Wigfalls in Leicester, I bought the latest gadget for my wife, a steam iron, for half-a-crown (12.5p) a week on HP. Those were the days when most buses only had two dials to look at – the speedo and the brake – either vacuum, hydraulic pressure or if you were lucky, air pressure.
Mr Anon
23/10/13 – 15:49
My memories from mid 50s to mid 60s, was that Wigfalls was a hire now, pay weekly firm. Everyone had their twin tub Hoover washers from them & fridges when they became available, I suppose because of the cost. People also hired their TVs from them, either weekly or with a coin meter on the back. They were a massive firm, with loads of Bedford CA vans, now no more. Back to the Circle route 8 & 9. Around 1980 to 1983, I had a garage on the island on the bottom of Sutherland Road & Carlisle St. At that time they were using Alexander Y types, both bus & coach equipped. Climbing the steep hill was a beautiful booming noise from the Leyland engines. Maybe, the AECs had quietened down by them.
Andy Fisher
23/10/13 – 16:40
Andy, the Y types were strictly speaking DPs. Sheffield/SYPTE never had any bus versions. Yes they would have resounded off the surrounding walls. By the mid ’80s I think all AECs would have departed.
David Oldfield
23/10/13 – 17:37
For a short while, I regularly drove a preserved SBG Y type Leopard (and X reg Midland – one of the last). It was always fun accelerating along narrow, built up, roads. You don’t get sound effects like that from the modern sewing machines. [Mind you, I think an 0680 Bristol RE makes an even better sound!)
David Oldfield
24/10/13 – 07:53
Can you still rent a television? If it goes “on-the-blink” can a “TV-repair-man” still come out in a van to fix it?? Along with Wigfalls so too have gone DER and Rediffusion. So, apart from locally-liveried buses, local advertisements seem to have gone the same way . . . along with local ITV stations. However, local(ly-designed) bus stop flags seem to be coming back into fashion, to replace the DoE 1970s design. Lose some, win one?
Philip Rushworth
26/10/13 – 07:19
Not quite sure what the Alexanders were, it was some had large sloping windows & some had smaller, more upright numerous ones.
Andy Fisher
23/05/15 – 07:08
Does anyone out there remember Herries Road bus garage, I lived next to the garage in the 1950’s I remember it being built.
Glynn Evans
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/08/18 – 06:04
Whoever said modern buses were like sewing machines…. I’m not so sure..the early Omnidekas at Brighton & Hove used to make a fantastic noise as I drove them up Elm Grove on 22s & took me back to the noise of NWRCC Royal Tigers on some of the hilly local routes round Matlock in the 1960s
Western SMT AEC Regent III 9612E Northern Counties L27/26R
Western SMT took fifty-eight of these handsome preselector Regent III’s with Northern Counties lowbridge bodies between 1947 and 1950, being registered BSD 401 to 458, Strangely, BSD 441 of 1949 never entered service with them and was immediately sold to the independent York Bros. of Northampton. The rest of them continued with WSMT until withdrawal between 1962 and 1965. BSD 454 had survived a further seven years or so with an unidentified owner until being sold to North’s, the dealer, of Sherburn-in-Elmet – in whose yard it is seen here awaiting its final fate in the Summer of 1970. It would be interesting to know why BSD 441 was sold without being used – does anybody know?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
02/12/13 – 16:13
“an unidentified owner” could be some sort of contractor, using the vehicle for staff transport, if the markings on the offside are any guide. Is that a Weymann coach body behind her?
Pete Davies
02/12/13 – 16:51
Looks like a Fanfare to me, Hawkeye…..
David Oldfield
03/12/13 – 06:21
At a rough guess it is probably a Yorkshire Woollen Fanfare.
Philip Carlton
03/12/13 – 06:22
I don’t know why BSD 441 was sold unused. But I do know that 6 further buses were diverted to Hants & Dorset on the south coast. They were very non-standard for this company, but lived out a reasonably full service life. They were numbered 1213-1218, and registered JEL 752-757 in Bournemouth, as would be expected for H&D stock at that time. I believe that this transfer was at the instruction of the BTC, as both H&D’s parent, the Tilling Group, and Western SMT’s parent SBG had recently been nationalised. Presumably a Whitehall boffin felt that such a transfer made sense…?? They were fitted with Tilling-style destination screens, although not so deep as the normal standard.
Michael Hampton
03/12/13 – 07:51
‘Bus Lists On The Web’ gives Western 548 as having had the registration BCS 453 rather than BSD 453. Conversely, Western 394, the last of a batch of 22 Northern Counties bodied Daimler CVA6s, is given as BSD 453, whereas the previous 21 are shown BCS 429/31-3/5-41/3-52. There is a pic on the net of 548 displaying the registration BCS 453, when with subsequent operator Laycock of Barnoldswick. Almost as strange as the ‘BSD 441’ enigma.
David Call
03/12/13 – 07:51
The single decker on the right of the picture looks to be a Lancashire United Guy UF with Weymann Hermes body, one of six delivered in 1954. The front of these bodies was different to the standard Hermes body having a curve to lower windscreen line to match previous Atkinson Alphas with bodies by Northern Counties, Roe and Willowbrook but being different in detail around the cab windows.
Phil Blinkhorn
04/12/13 – 07:16
Concur with you on the LUT UF, it was my thought straight away on seeing first sight.
Mike Norris
04/12/13 – 12:11
I didn’t record the details of the other vehicles in the photo, but can confirm that the one on the right is an ex-LUT WTB-reg Arab LUF. There were others of the batch at North’s on that day, I have another photo which includes WTB 71. The bus to the left is one of several ex-WYRCC LS’s, and in the background an ex-YWD Fanfare, of which there were others.
John Stringer
05/06/20 – 08:07
Can anyone tell me what became of 473 (BSD 436) from this batch? I have a feeling it ended up in Ireland.
Tynemouth and District 1949 AEC Regent III Northern Coachbuilders H30/26R
Eight of these splendid AEC Regent III were among the 1949 intake. By 1951, the size of the name had been considerably reduced; this would also be around the time these were due for their first repaint, so my guess would be that the photo was taken roughly 1950 or thereabouts. As things turned out, they would be the last new AEC double deckers to enter service at Percy Main, with the next four intakes all being Guy Arabs, although AEC remained the preferred choice for single deck vehicles and coaches. After the intake at the beginning of 1940, no new vehicles were allocated to Percy Main until 1946. During the war several vehicles were requisitioned by the Ministry of Transport or transferred to other depots within the NGT group, to make matters worse, the bodies on all the NGT group forward entrance Short Brothers AEC Regent I’s, had developed serious structural faults at the leading edge of the doors, by 1943, they had deteriorated to such an extent that special permission was granted to have them rebodied, presumably as utilities. Northern Coachbuilders carried out the work at their Cramlington works. The H26/24R Short Bros and H28/24R Brush bodied AEC Regent I’s from 1931 and 1932 seem to have lasted somewhat better, they were rebodied in 1945. They were also done by NCB, but at Claremont Road in Newcastle. Once rebodied 42 – 51 – 79/80/81 & 89 all returned to Percy Main, the remainder were reallocated to other depots and renamed and numbered, but retained their original registrations. The years between 1946 and 1949 saw a frenzy of activity, with no less than 52 new vehicles arriving at Percy Main, bear in mind that the total fleet was around 120 vehicles, of which about 18 were coaches.
New vehicles were:- 1946 – 123/127 – FT 5623/5627 – H56R Northern Counties Guy Arab II G5LW. 1947 – 128/142 – FT 5698/5712 – H30/26R Weymann AEC Regent II – 141/142 carried the Wakefields name. 1948 – 143/156 – FT 6143/6156 – H30/26R Weymann AEC Regent II – 155/156 carried the Wakefields name. 1949 – 157/164 – FT 6557/6564 – H30/26R Northern Coachbuilders AEC Regent III – 157/158 carried the Wakefields name. 165/174 – FT 6565/6574 – H30/26R Pickering Guy Arab II.
In addition, 18 pre war vehicles were rebodied in 1949 and returned to the depot, they were:- 93/95 – FT 4220/4222 – 1938 H26/26F Weymann AEC Regent I – Rebodied by Pickering as H30/26R: 1957 sold to Provincial as replacements for vehicles destroyed in garage fire, finally withdrawn 1964. 96/103; FT 4496/4503: 1938 H26/26F Weymann Leyland TD5 – Rebodied H30/26R Northern Coachbuilders MK 3. 1939 – 111/112 – FT 4941/4942 / 1940 – 114 – FT 5224 – 117/118; FT 5227/5228 – 119/120; FT 5262/5263 – All B38F Brush AEC Regal – Rebodied B38F Pickering.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
07/05/14 – 12:26
I think this looks a very handsome vehicle, Ronnie. These NCB bodies always remind me very much – if you cover up the very obviously different front ends – to the Park Royal-bodied Regent III’s of my local operator Halifax Corporation/JOC. Bradford had some very similar to these, and Huddersfield JOC had some lowbridge ones. They appeared to develop quite a degree of body sag though and pictures of many of them a few years on show a distinct downward curve in the waistrail (I know how they must have felt!). A nice straight forward, yet cheerful livery and an impressive gold shaded fleetname. Looks just right.
John Stringer
07/05/14 – 17:36
Sheffield had quite a number of these NCB bodies – 10 each on Daimler CVD6 and Crossley DD42 chassis and 2 lots of 10 on AEC Regent III chassis. The final 10 were of a slightly more modern appearance, and I thought they were rather handsome. I agree with you entirely, John, about the Halifax Park Royals – but I actually think the front has an echo of the classical Weymann front. They were, however, as you say, quite dire, with their pronounced body sag which I assume was for the usual reason of unseasoned timber – being all they could get, even in the early post-war period. The first lot of Regents were included in the green repaint experiments – which was an unmitigated disaster. One assumes that the quality of the timber had improved by the time of the Newcastle “ECW clones”. NCB closed shortly after but Roe’s bought all the machinery AND the timber from the receivers.
David Oldfield
07/05/14 – 17:36
Mention of the AEC Regent III /NCBs for Bradford Corporation (524 – 543; 1947/48) by John has made me think there were several variants of the AEC Regent III. Bradford specified the 9.6 litre engine and the pre-selector transmission, whilst some BET Companies preferred the 7.7 litre engine and the crash gearbox. What was the specification Ronnie of the Tynemouth and District AEC Regent III posted above? When new these buses were splendid sight as shown above and the body fitted well on many other similar types of chassis such as the Leyland PD, Daimler CV and Guy Arab III.
Richard Fieldhouse
They were 7.7 with a crash box, Richard. So far as I am aware, the NGT group never had any pre select half cabs, there were certainly none at Percy Main, and the only semi auto half cabs were the Routemasters. Newcastle Corporation had some very similar NCB bodied Regent III, although they were slightly different under the windscreen, I think they were pre select. Obviously they were double fronted, but they also had 4 and 6 wheel trolleybuses with this style of body (501 is in preservation) As I remember, these and the Newcastle Regents were outlasted by the Weymann bodied Regent 11 from 1947 and 1948, perhaps they developed the body sag problems mentioned. SDO had some Regent III with ROE bodies, they were later transferred to Northern, and lasted until about 1965 or so.
Ronnie Hoye
08/05/14 – 07:51
‘Bus Lists on the Web’ shows the Tynemouth and District Regent IIIs as type 9612A, which, if correct, gives them 9.6 litre engines and crash gearboxes.
Peter Williamson
08/05/14 – 08:11
I stand corrected, Peter. The 1947/48 Regent II were 7.7, and most of the 1949 Pickering bodied Guy Arab III, which came with Meadows engines were later converted to AEC 7.7, but these may well have been 9.6 units, so perhaps spares may have been another reason why they were withdrawn before the Regent II and the Guy’s.
Newcastle Corporation 1947 AEC Regent III Roe H31/25R
Before the D.V.L.A. It seems to have been common practice that local authorities would issue registrations to bus companies En-block which would then be allocated as and when required, as a result, vehicles which were two or three years apart could have registrations which were numerically quite close. Unfortunately, I do not have access to their fleet records, but Newcastle Corporation would seem to be a good example of this. Newcastle registrations were BB – TN or VK. Post war motor vehicles were AEC, Daimler and the all Leyland Titans, bodies came from a number of sources including, Massey. MCW. Northern Coachbuilders, Park Royal Vehicles, Roe and Weymann, then of course there was the trolleybus fleet. I am speculating here, but it would appear they had most of the registrations between KVK 950 or thereabouts, and LVK 140 ish, but they were allocated between 1947 and 1949. My information suggests that among that number were three 1947 AEC Regent III with H31/25R Roe bodies KVK 984/6 – 84/6. Sorry, I don’t have any further details, I know Newcastle Corporation Transport had some pre-select Daimlers, but I’m inclined to think that these were a 7.7 litre with a crash box. 86 is shown here in its original 1947 blue, and again in the post 1949 yellow livery which had previously been the sole preserve of the trolleybus fleet. The Roe body was one of those timeless classics that would look good in almost any livery. I rather think that as well as those bodied by Roe, the MCW bodied Daimlers also had a window on the stairs, but if memory serves, at some stage they were all either removed or painted out.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
20/11/14 – 11:43
Birmingham (JOJ) and Glasgow (FYS and SGD) reserved large blocks of registrations which were issued over several years. Almost all the FYS block was issued to buses and trolleybuses over the years 1949 to 1958, followed by SGD 1958 to 1964, when the year-letter phase began. Devon issued LTA registrations to Western/Southern National for buses new between 1949 and 1953.
Geoff Kerr
21/11/14 – 06:37
In Leeds while the buses were registered in blocks there was never a special series for them On the other hand all the city council ambulances were given the registration — 999! In complete contrast West Yorkshire never used blocks of registrations even for a single batch of buses being quite content to take what the licensing office offered and if the number matched the fleet number it was very definitely good luck and not good management!
Chris Hough
21/11/14 – 10:20
Nottingham (after WW2 but not before) invariably had blocks of reg numbers that corresponded to the fleet numbers. All were in the KTV series until the big fleet of 72 Regent/Park Royals, supplied in 1953/54, took OTV 127-198, assuming the fleet numbers of Regents supplied 1934-36. Even then there was clearly some agreement with the licensing authority, since these followed on neatly from the 1949 series of Regent/Metro-Cammells KTV 97-126, which in turn took on fleet numbers previously carried by defunct 1931 Regents.
Stephen Ford
21/11/14 – 15:23
Portsmouth Corporation seemed to use whatever registrations were available in the pre-war and early post-war period. I suspect that the 1939 Leyland Cheetahs were numbered 41-46 to coincide with the allocated registrations BBK941-946. Post-war, Crossley DD42/5T No 28 was also coincidentally registered EBK 28. The others of the batch (EBK 23-27) carried numbers 11-15. The Corporation was “gap-filling” it’s number series at this stage. In the 1950’s, the Corporation had a policy of booking registrations in batches in ending 999. Thus we had 25 PD2s GTP 975-999 (58-82, 1952); 25 PD2s LRV 975-999 (83-107, 1956; 15 PD2s ORV 985-999 (108-122, 1958); 5 PD3s STP 995-999 (123-127, 1959), and 10 Tiger Cubs TTP 990-999 (16-25, 1959). After this the Corporation booked registrations that matched the fleet numbers in what was becoming the “normal fashion” across the industry from the 1960s (although I accept it wasn’t universal practice). As referred to above, it was usually ambulances or fire engines that had a “999” registration, not buses. The buses registered with a “999” didn’t go any faster than the rest, but 122 had a different and marvellous sounding exhaust note during it’s early life – certainly until c.1964/65 – very sporty! .
Michael Hampton
21/11/14 – 17:44
The West Yorkshire Road Car Company did use year block registrations in the period 1934 to 1939 and again from 1946 to 1956. An example for 1935 illustrates the method used. YG 8968 – 9015 registration marks were used for Dennis Lancet 1, Dennis Ace, Bristol G05G and Bristol J05G types. Another example used in 1952/53 were LWR 405 – 435 registration marks issued for a Bedford van, Bristol LS6G, Bristol KSW6B, Bristol KSW6G and Bristol LS5G types. Other letter groups with mixed bus types were BWT, CWT, DWU, EWY, FWX, GWX, JWU, JYG, KWU and OWX. I have omitted AWW as one mark missing in the sequence was AWW 160. After 1956 this practice of mixed bus types in registration groups ceased and shorter runs as described by Chris H were then the norm.
Richard Fieldhouse
22/11/14 – 08:58
I remember in 1967 Nottinghamshire used a block of registrations across 3 companies which as a youngster I thought unusual. SRB 59F to SRB 65F Mansfield District Lodekkas, SRB 66/67F Midland General REs, SRB 68F to SRB 80F Midland General Lodekkas, SRB 81F to SRB 90F Chesterfield Corporation Panthers. Mansfield District and Midland General were linked so possibly you could argue it was 2 companies. Does anybody remember anything similar elsewhere?
David Hargraves
22/11/14 – 14:05
Interesting, David – especially as Chesterfield is in Derbyshire! I wonder if the Panthers were an order that was actually diverted to Chesterfield for some reason?
Stephen Ford
22/11/14 – 16:37
In 1967 wasn’t RB a Derbyshire registration? It only became Nottinghamshire later.
KC
22/11/14 – 17:17
‘RB’ was a Derbyshire mark, and the Chesterfield Panthers naturally received Derbyshire registrations. Midland General/Notts & Derby vehicles were registered in Derbyshire up to c.1972, then Derby CBC in 1973/4 (was this after the Trent ‘takeover’?), then Nottingham LVLO. Mansfield & District vehicles were registered in Derbyshire from 1967 to at least 1970. Interestingly, the Chesterfield Panthers were fleet numbers 81-90, following on from Roadliners 71-80, so it may have been the Panthers which somehow dictated the above sequence. I am sure there would have been many more instances of bus registrations following on from one fleet to another, not least because bus and coach registrations once constituted a much higher proportion of the total than they do now. Off the top of my head I recall that (c.1950) DRN241-90 were Ribble 1301-50 and DRN291-310 Preston 8-27 (all PD2s); DRN341-54 were Ribble 284-97 (Sentinels) and DRN355-67 were Scout (Royal Tigers, PD2s, and a Bedford). Don’t forget that there was ostensibly no corporate connection between Ribble and Scout in those days.
David Call
23/11/14 – 06:39
Newcastle Taxation Office allocated reversed JVK exclusively for Newcastle Corporation Transport buses and other municipal vehicles. The mark was first issued in November 1959 and remained in use until December 1963. Newcastle commenced suffix marks on 2 January, 1964. One of the most intriguing registration features was Liverpool which issued FKF to Liverpool City Transport buses covering the D, E and G suffix.
Kevin Hey
23/11/14 – 09:32
Newcastle Corporation in fact had a pretty good record of matching registrations and panel numbers, as they called them, but only from 1937 onwards. That year saw the arrival of 174-95, Daimler COG5s with MCCW, NCB or EEC (low-bridge) bodies, registered FVK 174-95. The practice continued up to 244 then fell away a little for numbers 245-50, utility-bodied vehicles delivered in 1942 and 1943 as JTN 505/6, JTN 607/8 (Guy Arabs) and JTN 619/20 (Daimler CWG5s). A new numbering series started from 1 in 1945 but single and double digit registration numbers generally weren’t used. Buses up to 86 had three-digit registration numbers, with the last one or two digits matching the panel numbers. Perhaps in those days there was already a demand for ‘cherished’ low number plates for the few who could afford a posh car to go with them and had the influence to fix it when registering their vehicles! 1 to 86 were registered JVK 421-5, JVK 613-58 and KVK 959-86. Note the gap 6 to 12, more of which anon. From no. 87 onwards the numbers were synchronised. It’s not really the case that use of the KVK 9xx series was spread over several years. It only covered 3 batches of vehicles in the 59-86 range (59-72 the fourteen Birmingham-style CVG6s, 73-83 eleven more CVG6s with Roe bodies and 84-6 the three Regent/Roes you refer to). These were delivered out of sequence; the two Roe bodied batches in mid-1947 and the Birminghams in mid-1948. More interesting in terms of variety is the 13-58 range, covering no fewer than five batches, all registered JVK 613-58 and delivered between December 1945 and June 1946. Eighteen of these, 41-58, were the single-deckers required for tram replacement on the Scotswood-Throckley route where the narrow and fragile road bridges at Lemington, from which the trams had long been diverted, precluded the use of double-deckers. Of these, eight were Guy Arab 5LWs with Massey bodies (51-58) so that’s another marque to add to your list! 41-50 were AEC Regal/Harringtons. Here’s an undated pic of Regal 41 or 44 on what looks like an inspection visit to Sugley Bridge at Lemington. I think that’s a Regent/Park Royal semi-utility of the 37-40 batch lurking in a side street. All those buildings in the background still exist.
As regards 84-6, I THINK that they might have been part of the small number (70?) of London Transport RT specification chassis released to provincial operators in 1946/7. 84-86 had the RT chassis designation 0961. Provincial Regent IIIs were allocated 0961/2 in 1947, later to become 9612. See Non London Transport RTs for more background. Here’s a higher resolution zoom-in of your shot of 86 showing the gear pre-selector just below the steering wheel. Squint and you’ll see it!
All in all Newcastle took delivery of 245 motor buses (1-11/3-136, 164-73, 251-350) and 186 trolleybuses (443-628) from 1946-1950, enabling a clear-out of many pre-war vehicles and of course the last of the trams in 1950. Note that the new panel number series that started in 1945 had reached 136 by 1948 but with a further 100 buses due for delivery in 1949 and 1950 the 60 or so surviving pre-war vehicles (147-250, with gaps) would have required re-numbering. This was avoided by switching back to the original 1-250 series and using 251 to 350 for the 1949/50 deliveries, with 164-73 (see question 2 below) later becoming 364-73 when new AEC Regent Vs arrived in 1956. You‘ve guessed it – the AECs were numbered 137 onwards! Just to spoil the story, 351-3 (PD2/Orions) had appeared in 1954 as UTN 851-3.
Now, can anyone help with a couple of questions:
1. Why was there a gap from 6 to 12 in the post-war panel number series? Newcastle had managed in 1945 to acquire five Daimler CWA6 chassis numbered 1-5 (JVK 421-5) and fitted them with second-hand pre-war bodies in 1945/6/7, then re-bodied all five at Mann Egerton in 1950. The next new vehicles to arrive after 1-5, in late 1945, were numbered 13 onwards. The 6-12 gap was eventually partially filled four years later in 1949 when six all-Leyland low-bridge deckers arrived, being numbered 6-11 and somehow acquiring matching registrations LVK 6-11. Was a batch cancelled before delivery c1945 that might have become 1-12 (or 6-12) and if so what were the details?
2. What was the reason for the arrival in 1948 of the odd batch of Daimler CVD6s single-deckers with Willowbrook bodies, numbered out-of-range as 164-73 (LTN 464-73)? These were diverted from local independent Venture who had already ordered 60 of this combination. The 164-73 range matched that of the ten pre-war Daimler COS4 single deckers (the S designated locally manufactured Armstrong-Saurer engines) that had been transferred to United AS in 1938 with the Branch End set of services, thus creating a convenient panel number gap. Given the eighteen single deckers that arrived in 1946 why were ten more acquired so soon
Tony Fox
23/11/14 – 11:40
Many local taxation offices used 1-99 for motor bikes or local authority vehicles. North Western had LDB 701-LDB 800 allocate in January 1957 and used LDB800 in mid 1960 by which time Stockport was issuing RDB, again NWRC. was allocated a batch which took about 20 months to use. Manchester Corporation was allocated JND 601-JND 800 in the autumn of 1948. JND 751-JND 800 were used between 10/48 and 02/49 on a batch of Crossleys. JND 601-JND 700 appeared on a batch of PD2s split between MCW and Leyland bodies between 05/51 and 02/52. In the meantime, JNA 401-JNA 500 had appeared on a batch of MCW bodied PD1s between 01/49 and 05/49! JND 701-JND 750 were allocated to a batch of Daimler CVG6s, bodied by MCW which arrived between 09/50 and 03/51. In 1953 Manchester received the allocation of NNB 101-NNB 299. NNB 101-118 and 120-125 were placed on a variety of Northern Counties bodied Royal Tigers. 119 and 126-129 were not used. The buses were delivered between 05/53 and 10/53. NNB 130-NNB 135 were also Royal Tigers with Bond and Burlingham airport coaches, delivered 08/53 -10/53. NNB 140-NNB 169 were PD2s with NCME bodies delivered between 11/53 and 06/54. Previously NNB 170-NNB 209 had arrived between 07/53 and 10/53 as PD2s with Leyland bodies. NNB 210-NNB 299 were Daimler CVG6s split between 80 MCW unique to Manchester bodies and 10 MCW Orion bodies delivered between 11/53 and 02/55. The unused NNB 136-NNB 139 eventually appeared in August 1956 on Tiger Cubs with Burlingham airport coach bodies. After this, registration batches were requested once a delivery date was firmed up so registrations were very much in date. There was one last glitch. Fleet lines 4701-4760 should have been delivered as DNF 701C-DNF 760C in 1965. Late delivery meant that only 4701-4706 arrived in 1965. 4707-4712 arrived in January 1966 and 4713-4730 arrived in February. The registrations had already been allocated so the vehicles were all taxed in December 1965. The delays continued and 4731-4760 were then allocated FNE 731D-FNE 760D. 4731-4740 all arrived in December 1966. 4741-4760 were not delivered until January 1967 but were taxed in December 1966 to avoid a registration change.
Phil Blinkhorn
24/11/14 – 06:40
I bought a car back in the mists of time and asked for a “nice” number: so the dealer just phoned the taxation office and said “Can I have a motorcycle number please” and there we were…
Joe
24/11/14 – 06:42
Stockport Taxation office allocated DB 5000-5299 to North Western Road Car Co. issued over the period February, 1924 to March, 1929. This was followed by the block DB 9301-9500 between March, 1929 and March, 1932. Stockport completed the general DB sequence in 1930 and this superseded by JA.
Kevin Hey
25/11/14 – 06:39
On the other side of the Irish Sea, Coras Iompair Eireann frequently booked big blocks of Dublin registrations, as did its predecessor the Dublin United Tramways Company. Between 1937 and 1940, the DUTC booked four blocks of ZC registrations totalling 250, as follows: *ZC 701-750: Leyland Lion LT7 (fleet nos. N91-103) and Titan TD4 (R1-37) *ZC 3751-3800: Titan TD4 (R38-50) and TD5 (R51-87) *ZC 6601-6700: Titan TD5 (R88-187) *ZC 8851-8900: Titan TD5 (R188-234) and TD7 (R235-7) In 1948 and 1949, CIÉ booked two blocks of ZH registrations totalling 230: *ZH 4440-4539: Titan PD2 (R291-390) *ZH 6301-6430: Tiger OPS3 (P31-160) However, P47 ended up being registered ZJ 1182 instead of ZH 6317. I’m guessing it did not enter service as soon as it was delivered, but was instead stored for some time beforehand. Three blocks of ZJ registrations totalling 230 were booked during 1949 and 1950: *ZJ 1351-1400: Titan PD2 (R391-440) *ZJ 4405-4454: Titan OPD2 (R441-90) *ZJ 5901-6030: Tiger OPS3 (P161-290) P242 ended up being registered ZO 9646 instead of ZJ 5982 – again, I’m guessing it was stored for some time before entering service. A single block of 163 registrations in the ZO series was booked in 1953: *ZO 6801-6963: Tiger PS2 (P291-361), Royal Tiger PSU1 (U1-88) and Titan OPD2 (R541-4) When three-letter registrations were introduced in 1954, CIE became somewhat modest – booking in blocks of only 70 until 1958… *JRI 11-80: Titan OPD2 (R581-650) *BIK 251-320: Titan OPD2 (R651-720) *OIK 925-994: Titan OPD2 (R729-98) *CYI 601-670: Titan OPD2 (R799-833) and PD3 (RA1-35) …then in blocks of just 60 until 1961. *OYI 801-860: Titan PD3 (RA36-95) *CZA 661-720: Leopard L2 (E1-60) *HZA 221-280: Titan PD3 (RA96-152) and AEC Regent V (AA1-3) However, in 1964, it booked EZH 1-255 for its first C-class Leopard PSU3s, which became the first vehicles to carry matching registrations. Then in 1966, it booked its biggest block, VZI 1-340, for its first D-class Atlanteans. In 1967, it booked EZL 1-230 for its first SS-class Bedford VAS5 and SB5 school buses. PZO 261-522 were booked in 1968 for SS261-522, followed by UZU 523-646 in 1969 for SS523-646. Reversed registrations began in 1970, and CIE wasted no time in booking 1-213 IK for its M-class Leopard PSU5s, and 341-410 IK for Atlanteans D341-410. In 1972, 411-554 ZD were booked for D411-554, and in 1973 701-770 ZI and 603-753 ZO were booked for SS701-70 and D603-753 respectively. By this time, CIE’s relationship with Leyland was deteriorating, and so a lull followed until the tie-up with Bombardier and GAC. In 1981, 2-201 JZL were booked for Bombardier double-deckers KD2-201, followed by 202-300 OZU in 1982 for KD202-300. Finally, in 1985, EZV 2-120 were booked for GAC rural buses KR2-120 (the ZV code had been allocated to Dublin in 1981 along with SI, ZG and ZS, as it was running out of registrations featuring its original codes). By then, the current year-county-serial registration system was on the horizon, as was the transfer of CIE’s bus operations to Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann.
Des Elmes
13/04/19 – 06:08
Bit late to this discussion on registration numbers but a bit of information on Burys numbers. Until the 1949-50 batch of PD2/4s were delivered the fleet numbers and registrations did not match. This group of 25 buses were 151 to 175 and the registration numbers were EN 9551 to 9555 and 9956 to 9975. From them on the fleet and registrations matched with the next ones being BEN 176 to 186,the single Deckers were then numbered in a separate series, the AEC Reliances being 81 to 86 and registered FEN 81 to 86. The numbers continued to match until the year suffix letters were added which started with C as Bury didn’t use A or B letters. The 1965 Fleetlines were AEN 832 to 837C, which were 132 to 137. Finally,at the very end of its existence in 1969 a new numbering series started at 1 with Atlanteans 1-3 being KEN 231-3G.
