Hebble Motor Services 1965 AEC Reliance 2MU4RA Park Royal DP39F
Photographed late on a summer day in 1966 at Stump Cross, a location very well known to our regular contributor and esteemed authority on Halifax matters, John Stringer, is AEC Reliance BJX 134C, No.134 in the fleet of Hebble Motor Services. The bodywork is by Park Royal, seated as DP39F, and the vehicle is seen in typically rugged terrain en route from Halifax to Cleckheaton. Those days of pre political correctness are reflected in the legend “One Man Operation” displayed in the destination box. This Reliance was the last of a batch of four, BJX 131-134, Nos. 131-134 delivered to Hebble in July/August 1965. The National Bus company took control of the BET bus empire in 1968, and, in the following year, management of Hebble (together with Yorkshire Woollen) passed to West Riding at Wakefield. The subsequent reallocation of services between these companies then saw Hebble expand to twice its BET size, but in 1971 the situation was turned entirely on its head when (to the delight of a certain Geoffrey Hilditch) NBC passed the Hebble business over to the Halifax Joint Omnibus Committee. Of the four Reliances 131-134 (renumbered 666-669 by Hebble in 1970) only the last (shown pictured above) entered the Halifax JOC fleet as No.320 in March 1971, when the bodywork configuration had become B43F, though whether this was inherited as such or was a JOC conversion I know not. I am sure our OBP experts will supply the answer. The 2MU4RA version of the Reliance had the AH470 engine coupled with the Thornycroft six speed constant mesh gearbox which demanded proper respect in use (I drove the Aldershot & District examples so I speak from experience). As far as I can establish, 320 would then have been the only constant mesh gearbox bus in the Halifax fleet since the expulsion of the last Nimbus, a type that was almost (I loved ‘em and drove them at every opportunity) universally detested by the driving staff. I bet 320 was not popular to say the least. A truly comprehensive and lively discussion about the final years of the Hebble company may be found on OBP at this link.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
26/06/17 – 07:24
Interesting looking lorry passing in the opposite direction. The square stepped wheel arch reminds me of a Guy Warrior. Can anybody identify it?
David Hargraves
27/06/17 – 07:04
Thank’s Roger, I’ve never been esteemed before ! The problems you suggest may have occurred at Halifax with the arrival of 134 (latterly 669 under the YWD-based scheme) into a synchromesh and semi-automatic fleet did not happen. Towards the end of 134’s time with Hebble one of their Plaxton Panorama-bodied Reliance coaches with synchromesh gearbox (either 20 or 21) suffered a gearbox failure in the Cheltenham area whilst working an outbound journey on the South West Clipper. A changeover (presumably by Black & White) was provided – not exactly a unique occurrence – to continue the rest of the journey to Paignton but no assistance was forthcoming regarding a repair (probably because it was happening too often). Consequently a Hebble mechanic and apprentice were instructed to grab the first Reliance that returned to depot, remove its gearbox, shoot off down to Cheltenham with it in the service van (a very hard worked vehicle) and swap the boxes over in time for their coach to change over the loaned coach on its way back. They then returned to Halifax with the defective box and it was duly ‘repaired’ (probably after a fashion). Then being in a constant state of vehicle shortage there was no time to bother getting the right boxes back into the right vehicles, so 134 received the repaired synchromesh box and retained it for the rest of its days, the coach retaining the constant mesh one.
As a result BJX 134C arrived at Halifax JOC (as 320) thus equipped, being no different to their other Reliances. Due to the strange Hebble trim layout it received a most unusual interpretation of the Halifax DP livery, starting out like a DP at the front and ending up in service bus livery at the rear. Here it is seen entering St. James Road prior to turning into the Cross Field Bus Station, Halifax sometime in late 1971. Please forgive the dreadfully out-of-focus shot but it is the only one I ever took of it in this livery.
Not long afterwards it was refurbished as a service bus with bus seating, its racks and luggage boot removed and repainted into normal bus livery. It passed into WYPTE ownership in 1974 becoming 3320 but never received PTE livery, being sold for scrap soon afterwards. This second photo shows it passing along Towngate, Northowram in the Spring of 1973.
John Stringer
27/06/17 – 09:10
Thanks, John. I knew that you would come up with the comprehensive answers – an esteemed authority indeed. You confirm that the conversion to bus seating was a Halifax exercise. Circumstances certainly acted in the favour of this vehicle where the gearbox was concerned. I suppose that is why only this one out of of the batch of four was accepted by GGH. Had it retained its original Thornycroft box in Halifax service I am sure that the gear changes would have been heard right across the West Riding – anything with a crash/constant mesh box was an anathema to the Halifax drivers.
Turning to David’s enquiry, I can see the resemblance to the Guy front end, but nothing I can find matches it exactly. Pantechnicons were often built closely to operators’ requirements so you could well be right. I will send a closer view if the front end to Peter to help with identification.
Roger Cox
05/07/17 – 06:25
Could the body on the pantechnicon be by Marsden/Vanplan.
Stephen Bloomfield
15/11/19 – 07:29
The lorry looks very much like one of George Pickersgills Removals, Harold Long from Henry Long Transport Bradford owned them for a while.
David MacBrayne Ltd. 1967 AEC Reliance 2U3RA Willowbrook DP49F
LUS 524E is a 1967 AEC Reliance 590 2U3RA with Willowbrook DP49F body. It was new to the legendary Scottish operator, David MacBrayne, fleet number 150. When MacBraynes ceased operation of bus services, it passed to Highland Omnibuses, being painted in that operator’s superb blue and red livery. Although the body is to the standard BET group design, it is unusual in having a one piece inward opening door, as was normal on contemporary coaches. This vehicle is preserved and is seen here at Brough, taking part in the 2016 Kirkby Stephen Running Day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
24/10/17 – 06:44
This vehicle appeared briefly in Northern Ireland as a “swap” for former Scottish Omnibuses SWS 671 which returned to Scotland. LUS resided with a church group around Gilnahirk in Belfast before returning to the mainland for preservation.
Having suffered a number of Albion Nimbuses whilst in his previous post at Great Yarmouth, Geoffrey Hilditch arrived as GM at Halifax only to find that his predecessor there had bequeathed him a batch of ten more, only recently delivered. Bought originally with the intention of operating out-of-town feeder services to and from the hilltop villages linking with double deckers on the main valley roads, the plan never really came to fruition and the Nimbuses found themselves operating through services from town to these places, as well as substituting for heavier duty single deckers on more local services. In these circumstances rather too much was perhaps expected of them and they soon began to give problems, and were generally unpopular with drivers (except Roger Cox !). Hilditch was not impressed and within two years he began to sell them off, but there was still considered to be a need for some shorter and narrower than standard single deckers to negotiate the narrow lanes and tight reversing points. He chose to repeat what he had done at Great Yarmouth and ordered some AEC Reliances with Pennine bodywork of reduced dimensions. Seven arrived for the JOC fleet in 1966 – 249-255 (ECP 949-955D) – based on the 505-engined 6MU3RA chassis. Bodies by the Seddon subsidiary Pennine Coachcraft seated 39, 252 having seats with headrests (removed from the two Nimbuses that had been fitted with them previously). 249 was even exhibited at the Commercial Vehicle Show at Earls Court in that year. They proved to be very useful on the more rural routes and were regular performers on the Heptonstall, Midgley, Booth and Mill Bank services. All passed to WYPTE Calderdale District in 1974 and were withdrawn in 1979/80. 250 was withdrawn on 31 July 1979 and sold at Central Motor Auctions the following month to Askin’s, the Carlton breaker. 251 escaped the breaker to operate for Everton Coaches of Droitwich for a while and was the subject of a sadly failed preservation attempt. 252 was exported to Malta, where it operated in a non-PSV capacity for a number of years. Here 250 is pictured in WYPTE days (1975) still in Halifax livery as it rests in Rawson Street, Halifax whilst its driver has his mealbreak in the Powell Street canteen, which was down a passageway behind Harvey’s department store on the left.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
10/11/17 – 06:53
Nice interesting buses-always seemed in a hurry and went fast!
Stuart Emmett
10/11/17 – 06:54
I recently paid a return visit to the Halifax area to see relatives who live high above Mytholmroyd on the way up to Pecket Well. After living in the flat lands around Peterborough for over 12 years I found those moorland roads, hills and twists quite challenging even in my humble Vauxhall Zafira. I have nothing but admiration for the men and machines who piloted those orange and green buses into that hinterland. Even these short and narrow Reliances must have been a tight squeeze but unlike the Nimbuses they ousted they would at least have had some power.
Philip Halstead
12/11/17 – 07:17
I remember in the 70’s when I looked after the police radio stations. I was going to one near Blackshaw Head on a quite snowy day when one of these could not make it up a steep climb and had to assist in guiding the driver reversing for almost a 1/2 mile before he could turn round. I then had to walk back to where I had left my Land Rover.
Brian Lunn
12/11/17 – 07:18
That’s an interesting point, Philip. Some may know better than me, but the Halifax/ Heptonstall bus has to use a turning circle to approach the steep hill up to the village. At the top the road narrows through the village and is cobbled, becoming for a bus a single width. Every sort of bus seems to have been used, though, and the whole thing certainly requires skill.
Joe
12/11/17 – 07:19
Philip, I now live some 10 miles down the A1 where the Black Fens abut the rolling hills of West Hunts, and I agree that there could be no greater contrast with the dramatic Calderdale skyline than the the billiard table top topography of South Holland lying to the north of Peterborough. These Pennine bodied Reliances began to appear during my last months with HPTD in the latter part of 1966, but, being earmarked for (what was then called) OMO, they were not driven by we humble office employees who covered only crew duties. On the subject of the Nimbuses (yes, John, I loved ’em) my acquaintance with them was always on the 46 route to Heptonstall, which, because of the unbelievably constricted terminal reversing point, colloquially known as “The Rathole” – even the mirrors had to be flattened against the bus sides – these little machines carried a conductor. Before the coming of the Nimbuses, I believe that the route was previously operated with Regals, and I commend those drivers struggling over the years to turn round these bigger vehicles at the Rathole. However, I can vouch that the Nimbus did not lack performance when in good order, and could scamper up the steep Heptonstall Road from Hebden Bridge every bit as effectively as the Leopards that initially superseded them when the 46 was mercifully extended onwards beyond the Rathole to follow a circular terminal working round Heptonstall – why this route could not have been adopted long before I cannot imagine, unless there was some Road Service Licence difficulty. Having resolved the terminal problem, it was logical that the 46 would become a driver only operation, but, in my day, the Booth and Midgely services, which ran common with the 46 as far as Luddenden Foot, were PD2 crew runs. It would seem that they, too, soon became OMO workings with the then new Reliances. The Nimbus certainly had mechanical weaknesses, but so did the AH505 engine in the Reliance, so troubles were certainly not over. I have long thought that the fine Reliance chassis (much superior to the Leopard) should have been fitted with the superb Dennis O6 engine – we are all allowed to dream.
Ah, the short Pennine Reliances. What do I remember? Clutch problems, snatching brakes, skidding in wet weather, the inevitable cold heaters and demisters, head gaskets (yes even on the AH505 engine). I have to bow to Roger and John who were there before me that the Nimbus was actually worse!!!!
Ian Wild
24/11/17 – 07:27
Provided all was working well I always much preferred the 505 Reliance to the heavy, clunky L1/L2 Leopards, though of course I wasn’t involved with having to maintain them. Cold heaters and demisters were a feature of most of the buses that I remember driving throughout my career (except during the summer months when some suddenly seemed to blow hot !). The dimensions of these reduced Reliances rendered them just right for the roads they were intended for. However, I would completely agree with Ian that Reliance brakes could be unpredictably and frighteningly snatchy, and that these short ones were the worst of all. Many of the routes they were used on were tightly timed and yet involved negotiating miles of narrow, steeply graded and winding country lanes with blind bends and shiny worn surfaces, along which numerous farm tractors with muddy tyres and leaking muck spreaders would have passed, and to which herds of cows would have added their messy contribution. All it needed then was for it to rain and you had a recipe for disaster. You had to be extremely careful, yet the running times often didn’t exactly encourage this. It always seemed to me that when a standard chassis had bits lopped off it to make it shorter and narrower it always upset the balance of things. Even worse than these Reliances were some Bristol LHS6L’s that WYPTE graced us with for a while. The LH was designed primarily as a 32ft x 8ft vehicle and may well have been okay in that form (can’t say – I never drove one). The LHS was a shorter version, maybe around 27ft 6in and sometimes 7ft 6in wide, but ours were as short and narrow as it was possible to make them, with seemingly just enough wheelbase to allow for the engine and transmission to fit, the front and rear overhangs cut down as far as they could go, and with small wheels. This resulted in a 24ft x 7ft 6in, 27-seater roller skate of a bus yet which had the same powerful 0400 engine, gearbox and braking system of the full sized version – seemingly unmodified – and all its weight distribution completely messed up. Those things really were the most fearsome buses I’ve ever driven – too much power for their own good, rear wheelspin, bouncing up and down on the back end and the brakes locking up, skidding and sliding. Terrible things.
Leeds City Transport 1964 AEC Reliance 2MU2RA Roe B41D
Seen in April 1970 is Leeds City Transport No. 46, 46 KUA, an AEC Reliance 2MU2RA with Roe B41D bodywork, one of four, Nos. 44 – 47, 44 – 47 KUA delivered in 1964. These followed an earlier order for six similar vehicles in 1962, Nos 39 – 43, 839 – 843 CUM. I understand that all these Reliances had quite a short life of around 8 years or so with Leeds.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
03/12/18 – 07:13
I can’t comment on the others, but 45 and 47 went to Aberdeen. I have a view of each from the late Arnold Richardson’s collection.
Pete Davies
04/12/18 – 06:33
All four were new in August 1964 and withdrawn in December 1970. 44 and 45 went to Aberdeen on 30th June 1971, being followed on 7th July by 46 and 47, retaining the same fleet numbers.
John Kaye
05/12/18 – 07:46
Oh dear, that destination box doesn’t look comfortable, balanced up there.
Petras409
11/12/18 – 07:43
These Reliances really came too late. They were in effect an update of the standee single deckers 29-38, to the same 30ft. length when 36 ft. had become available. Getting 41 seats into the shorter length, with dual doors meant they had poor access/exit and tight seat spacing. As with many AECs of that design they were not comfortable, or liked by passengers or drivers. Just two years later, the first 36 ft. Swifts with wider doors, easier steps and 48 better spaced seats arrived. They may not have been great, but they were better. In a year or so there were 50 Swifts in operation and 39 to 46 were consigned to relief work and then sale.
Andy Buckland
13/12/18 – 05:53
Several of these also ended up in Scotland with Greyhound of Arbroath.
Chris Hough
07/01/19 – 07:12
I’ve sometimes wondered what was so wrong with the AEC Swift and the Leyland Panther that caused many operators to not get on with them, prematurely retire them (especially London’s AECs) and overall have bad experiences, while the conceptually similar Bristol RE seems to have commonly led a full life with its original operators. It’s not as if they did not incorporate standard components in use elsewhere.
Bill
12/01/19 – 08:23
In the absence of a more comprehensive reply from someone who knows more, I will say that one of the differences between Bristol’s approach and the Panther/Swift approach was the position of the driveline and its effect on weight distribution. In the Panther and Swift the engine and gearbox were at the extreme rear of the overhang, whereas the RE had the engine further forward, with the gearbox in front of the rear axle.
Peter Williamson
16/01/19 – 07:27
The Panther also had a much weaker frame causing bending and breaking. Even in preservation I can think of a couple where following you can see the curve.
Roger Burdett
17/01/19 – 07:09
The radiator for the Swift was not at the front, as in the Panther or the RE, but tucked away behind a panel in the bodywork behind the offside back wheels. Although this arrangement probably insured against air locks in the cooling system, it restricted the flow of cooling air over the surface of the radiator and could result in the engine overheating.
John B
18/01/19 – 06:30
My Foden which has the Rad in the same position still airlocks so concur John B comment.
Roger Burdett
18/01/19 – 06:32
In the Bristol RE the drive went forward from the engine to the gearbox located in front of the rear axle, and then back again to the differential. This gave a prop shaft of decent length to accommodate the suspension travel of the rear axle, something that competitive designs (the worst being the Seddon RU) lacked. Contrary to popular belief, the RE did not pioneer this layout. The Rutland Clipper of 1954 used a similar arrangement.
Aldershot & District Traction Co 1970 AEC Reliance 6U3ZR Duple C49F
Having vacillated for some time before settling upon an underfloor engined saloon chassis, even buying some full fronted Dennis Lancet III coaches in 1953, Aldershot & District finally chose the AEC Reliance as its standard single decker, and stayed with this model for its coach requirements right up to its subjugation to Thames Valley (mis)management from January 1972 under the new guise of Alder Valley. Seen here in The Grove alongside Aldershot Bus Station is No.596, VCG 596H, the first of four 6U3ZR Reliances supplied in 1970 with Duple C49F coachwork sporting the (to my eye) hideous Detroit “inspired” front grille that spoilt many of the later Duple designs. Aldershot & District bought two more Reliances of the 6U3ZR specification in 1971, but these had the aesthetically more pleasing Plaxton C49F coachwork. VCG 596 passed to Alder Valley from 1 January 1972 as No. 49.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
22/12/18 – 06:37
I have to say that I like this coach! Functional, neat without meaningless frippery: where is the Detroit? Burlingham, Whitson, Yeates, other Duple perhaps…this is more Turin!
Joe
22/12/18 – 12:11
Joe – the “Detroit”-inspired part is the full-width chromed grille, which does look rather “overpowering” to my eyes. The chromed strip that runs the length of the body and at across the front at headlight level is also an excessive amount of polished metal. In a monochrome photo, and wearing a livery with various colours, it doesn’t look so bad, but with a different “livery”, and in colour, the effect is pretty dire:- https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php I see from other photos that Southdown had the sense to specify their RUF-H batch of Leopards with the same body without the chromed strip on the sides, but they were stuck with the grille. The polished metal soon went out of fashion, but the advent of the Dominant with curved side windows made the Commander look very old-fashioned in just a couple of years.
Nigel Frampton
26/01/19 – 06:48
The 36ft long AEC Reliance with the AH691 engine & the later AH760 power unit was a real drivers coach & the best premium weight coach on the market until the Volvo B58 surpassed it. With a Reliance the only thing to watch is they tended to run a bit hot on sustained motorway journeys. My boss instructed his drivers to keep an eye on the temperature gauge & if it starts to climb, drop a gear & keep it down to 55 to 60 MPH while it drops. Good advice, never had overheating on later Reliances. Leyland Leopard, very good, but I think the chassis was more suited to a service bus body rather than a premium coach. As a coach, the gear ratios were all wrong on a semi auto Leopard, but in terms of reliability & strength of the chassis they were unsurpassed.
Andrew Spriggs
26/01/19 – 09:59
Not sure about the overheating: if you had a Sunbeam Imp with the usual gasket problem, going faster improved the air cooling effect!
Joe
06/03/19 – 07:17
I think the overheating problems associated with the Reliance were mainly confined to the wet lined AH470 engine, later replaced by the more successful, dry lined AH505. The least said about the Hillman Imp, especially the very early examples, probably the better.
John B
26/09/19 – 05:53
I have always seen what you refer to as the Detroit-style grille (I have to agree with Joe that it is more Turin than Detroit) as a clean and elegant successor to the grimace-like grille applied to later Bella-series Duple bodies, itself a massively disappointing successor to the original Bella grille which to my mind was a natural update to the earlier butterfly design.
West Riding Automobile 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Roe B41D
In 1956 West Riding turned to the AEC Reliance for its limited bus saloon requirements, taking twelve with Roe B44F bodies characterised by a “droopy” lower line to the windscreen. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ The Reliance then became the choice for the coach fleet with Roe C41C bodies, and in 1961 twelve of the 2MU3RV chassis type arrived carrying Roe B41D bodywork of which THL 921, fleet number 921 is an example. No more Reliances were purchased before West Riding sold out to the National Bus Company in 1967. This picture was taken in April 1970 before the corporate dead hand of Freddie Wood fell in 1972, after which the poppy red livery was inflicted upon West Riding.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
18/05/20 – 06:38
A stylish yet functional design enhanced by a smart livery. More attractive than the standard (Alexander in the cases of PMT and Trent) BET version of the time.
Ian Wild
17/06/20 – 07:19
These dual bodied Roe bodied Reliance saloons felt very solid indeed. They lasted until 1973 when they were ousted by new Leyland Nationals. None of the batch was repainted into National Bus Company red, and these along with the elderly Guy ArabIV of 1957 vintage stood out from the mainly repainted fleet by early 1973. They were probably the last traditional green single deckers in service.
MarkyB
18/06/20 – 06:45
I was recounting, only last week, to a friend retired from the industry that C H Roe were among the coachbuilding greats and, against a general trend and tide, retained a composite structure which produced high quality bodies of a generally attractive appearance; robust, well built and well finished. These, and the traditional deckers, were among the best bodies available (in every sense). Following in Crossley’s footsteps, the introduction of PRV frames (particular on the Atlantean and similar bodies on various front engined chassis) brought the nadir of Roe bodywork. They were ugly in the extreme and time revealed them also to be rot boxes. They did solve these problems – but not in the OBP era.
David Oldfield
03/05/21 – 07:19
A snippet of information for fans of the AEC Reliance. A 1961 AEC Reliance (WKG 287, the last of a sequence number-plated WKG 276-287) was still in daily service with Henley’s of Abertillery, Wales in the 1990s, making it the oldest service vehicle still in daily use on a public route.
In October 1962, AEC Reliance 200 APB (Safeguard – AEC Reliance – 200 APB) was despatched to Safeway of South Pertherton, Somerset, and replaced by Willowbrook B45F bodied Reliance 5389 PL. The firm still runs a bidirectional circular service in Guildford which is a development of the Westborough service on which 5389 PL is seen operating in 1967.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
31/10/22 – 07:32
200 APB returned to Safeguard and has become their signature preserved bus which they roll out for service on significant occasions.
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1956 AEC Regent V Willowbrook HBB56R
Notice the roof this shape was unique to East Yorkshire for one reason the Beverly North Bar. This is the sole survivor of the gateways into the town of Beverly the shape of the arch comes to a point requiring the roof of the bus to do the same even so it was still a tight fit.
A piece of boring personal reminiscence! (But it shows, perhaps, how times have changed). Because, I think, that sitting for a long period by the window on the upper deck of a ‘Beverly Bar’ double decker could become uncomfortable, East Yorkshire permitted smoking on the lower deck. I’m unaware of any other operator who allowed it.
Roy Burke
It’s strange that the majority of EYMS ‘deckers had the Beverley Bar roof profile, as only a few routes actually passed beneath the bar. I believe that 229, an ex Binnington’s TD2, was the oldest vehicle to have the roof profile, when it was rebodied in 1936. The lowbridge buses were used in the Hornsea area, I think.
Keith Easton
11/03/11 – 16:23
Were these Regents known as ‘Blue bottles’?
Roger Broughton
13/03/11 – 08:09
If memory serves correctly Roger, East Yorkshire’s Leyland Titan PD2/Roe fully-fronted double-decker coaches became known as ‘Bluebottles’ after demotion to bus duties in later life. Originally painted in East Yorkshire’s attractive coach livery of primrose and blue, they were apparently known as ‘Yellow Perils’ when new. On becoming buses they received East Yorkshire’s glorious indigo and primrose livery with white roof – thus becoming ‘Bluebottles’. Whether the entire batch was downgraded, and whether the buses retained their coach seating I do not know, but they certainly looked comfortable and distinctive vehicles in either livery.
Brendan Smith
13/03/11 – 10:31
Brendan, I believe that the PD2 coaches did retain the luxury seating even when demoted, but I can’t honestly remember whether or not the large lower saloon luggage racks were retained – this would mean the seating capacity still being only 50. Certainly some of the batch escaped the indignity of being demoted, although I suppose if they had to be demoted at least it was to an honourable alternative with East Yorkshire, as one was preserved and appeared at rallies in primrose and light blue. Roy, I’m sure you’re right about “smoking anywhere in the bus” as I have never encountered it elsewhere either. When I had relations in Bridlington I was a frequent traveller from Leeds, and I have to confess to contributing plenty of nicotine to the lower saloons in my misguided days – how I wish for many reasons that I’d never touched a cigarette but that’s another story.
Chris Youhill
14/03/11 – 07:57
Barton Transport certainly allowed smoking on both decks in the early 1970’s but I’m not sure if it was allowed until the end of their operation of double deckers.
Chris Barker
14/03/11 – 19:44
Brendan, I would agree with you on the naming of the PD2/12’s, and only the final eight (576 to 583) MKH 85 – 92. were downgraded to bus work. The seating was altered to FH28/26RD, thus seating 54 passengers, but I am unaware as to whether the coach seats were retained or replaced by bus seats.
Keith Easton
05/07/11 – 05:44
Having been absent from the EY Pages for awhile there’s a whole mass of really good info for me to read -3 pages back Chris mentions Whitby Oliver Furniture and a J5G conversion to Van, Bob Mack I think took a photo of AEC CVY 129 a converted bus. Back in 1911 and again in 1912 Olivers converted two ex London area buses. Maudslay ex Union Jack (London Road Car Co)LC4149 bonnet code R4, Platform Flat carrying a lift off rail container 1911. The second was it is thought an ex GELMO Straker made into Rully demountable top. re-regd York so orig owner not confirmed. In the early 1920 they ran five Charas convertible to Vans, 1 Maudslay, 2 Guys 2 Karriers. One of their slogans was ‘Are your chairs Uneasy let us repair them’- try that with Bus seats, By the way EYMS operated an Air Service for a short time within the British Isles during the 1930s It departed Hedon Aerodrome.
Ian Gibbs
05/07/11 – 09:12
Ian, your last sentence brings back very happy memories for me (no, I’m not QUITE as old as Amy Johnson but not far off) of Hedon Aerodrome. When I was in the RAF at Patrington in 1955/6 we naturally frequently used the EYMS Hull – Withernsea service and even then the intermediate destination blinds read :- AERODROME HEDON PATRINGTON There was a filling station, still in business at that time, called “Aerodrome Garage.” For a little more local flavour, how about the Hull folk’s pronunciation of the seaside resort as “Wither(UN)sea.
Chris Youhill
06/07/11 – 07:28
I think one of the Bluebottles was used by Halifax Corporation as a Driver Trainer. Also 647(VKH 47) was loaned to Yorkshire Woollen and then Hebble Motor Services in 1960 for fuel consumption tests.
Philip Carlton
06/07/11 – 09:20
The bus used by Halifax as a trainer was coach seated MKH 81 which carried the Halifax number 403 There is a photo of the bus in Halifax service on www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
07/07/11 – 06:41
Slightly off topic here, but what’s wrong with us ‘Ull folk saying “Wither’n’sea”? What about Whitefriargate then? For the non Hull folk it’s pronounced whit’fra’gate!! Back on topic, was the Aerodrome the one at Hedon where EYMS operated the Bus-Air service in the 30’s and KHCT ran services to the Hull Speedaway in the post-war years?
Keith Easton
07/07/11 – 12:15
Being brought up proper and speaking proper to boot, I’m, nonetheless, a big believer in preserving local dialect – or Sheffieldish as she is spoke in the old homeland. In Sheffield, there is a select corner of the republic called Beauchief but pronounced by the locals as “Beechiff”. We also share, with Doncaster, a suburb called “Inteck” – but you have to look on the buses for Intake.
David Oldfield
07/07/11 – 12:17
Well since you mention Hull Keith, I have to say I’m not a Hullovarian but I absolutely love the place! The first time I ever visited, I went on the ferry from New Holland and took the bus into town from Corporation Pier. I did go over the bridge soon after it opened but then many years passed before I visited again in 2009. I used to love the old bus station because it was full of atmosphere and character and the delights of the parking ground to the rear but I suppose you have to admit that the new interchange and St. Stephens has enhanced Hull considerably. I would like to ask you this; what was in the massive 5 or 6 story block between the bus station and Ferensway, was it offices? there was a street to the right of it which would have seemed a natural exit for buses but why did they go some distance further along before exiting on to Ferensway, was it by Lombard Street? I wish I’d taken more notice at the time but you never value things till they’ve gone!
Chris Barker
08/07/11 – 06:19
Oh ‘eck Keith, I hope I haven’t caused any offence – such was certainly not the intention – just the opposite in fact. I’ve always been a lover of local dialects and accents, and East Yorkshire and Hull in particular – I was just highlighting the delight of the extra syllable that you good ‘Ull/Spurn folk insert between the “R” and the “N” By way of apology, a pint of Moores and Robsons or Hull Brewery ale is yours when we meet !!
Chris Youhill
09/07/11 – 07:28
Chris Y and EY Aero buffs here is a reminder of ‘old planes’
I was given this picture to copy by an old chap I interviewed years ago with no copyright on the rear. He told me that the Air Ferry was set up to provide businessmen with a quick trip across the Humber I believe it was a charter job for each trip. The date was c1933s tickets were in triplicate coloured copies apparently being Blue Yellow White The Taxi was possibly ex-Richard Sherwoods fleet (only a theory on my part). My informant named the ‘Taxi’ as 6-cylinder Chevrolet Vehicle. So as Sherwood had 8 Chevs, one an LQ type (WF 2441) acquired by EYMS 1933 it is possibly from EYMS ownership. Anyhow EYMS provided the vehicle as transport to the Aerodrome, this photo illustrated the arrival of flight number One I was informed. I think the Aircraft may have been a Percival product.The aircraft code letters are not visible (rather like those annoying bus photos with staff in front of the Plate) so it cannot be precisely identified -or maybe from Aerodrome log books? Briefly on the subject of R H Sherwood he owned a 1907 ‘National’ Car formerley owned by John J Ferens!
Ian Gibbs
10/07/11 – 07:34
Hi Chris (B), between the bus station and Ferensway, was the ABC Cinema (on the corner) with a branch of Norman Duggleby’s toy shop at the bus station corner – sheer heaven for a youngster in the ‘fifties and ‘sixties! Next to the cinema was the Electricity showrooms, next to which was a car park, but was obviously a bombed site I’m not sure what was originally there. I too spent many happy hours in the Coach Station (that sounds a bit suspect in the 21st Century, but the ‘fifties to ‘seventies were much more innocent days); indeed upon acquiring a copy of Alan Witton’s fleetbook 2 and standing in the Coach Station and Victoria square, I found that I could see 80% of the KHCT bus fleet- happy days. Ironically, being born and bred in ‘Ull, I never did get to go on the New Holland Ferry, indeed you never appreciate what you have until it has gone. As to Lombard street, the KHCT offices and central garage were on the western side of Lombard street, and several bus stand were situated adjacent to the garage/offices. I only remember the rebuilt premises as the garage took a direct hit during the horrific air raid of May, 1941. Chris (Y) no offence taken, but if you can find a pint of Hull Brewery, then your’e on! On the topic of Hullisms, have you ever heard of Bridleberg, Withernberg and Hornberg at all? This is what we called them when young. Peter, please accept my apologies as this is totally off topic, just the ramblings of an aging Hullensian bus enthusiast!
Keith Easton
11/07/11 – 07:19
Very happy indeed Keith that no offence was taken – as I explained of course only the opposite was intended. No, I’ve never encountered the “bergs” before but I did often hear (and still do from an ex Hull/LCT chap in Leeds) Patrington pronounces as “Patringumm.” In the aerodrome region I have very fond memories of the prefabs on Hedon Road with enormous numbers reaching 12** etc, The Gaol (from outside I stress) Imperial Typewriters , Humbrol paints. The EYMS Withernsea service, before joining Hedon Road and passing the Aerodrome, was via Holderness Road and Southcoates Lane – I believe this still applies.
Chris Youhill
18/07/11 – 07:28
I chanced upon this forum while looking for pictures of Hedon aerodrome. Mr Easton’s comments on Hull Bus Station reminded me that I too spent a lot of time there in the ’50s and ’60s waiting for buses to Cottingham Road. The stop was opposite Duggleby’s; how many times must I have gazed longingly in their windows! I remember the long rows of bus stands, and used to imagine that buses from the ones at the back went to strange and forbidding places.
Stephen W.
22/08/11 – 11:32
The building in Ferensway contained the Regal cinema and the former Hull Electricity Department offices, later the Yorkshire Electricty Board. The car park and small road (shaped like a D on its side) was not a bomb damaged site – the former buildings were demolished when Frenesway was built in the early thirties. For a time the “roadway” was used as a KHCT bus terminus – there’s a photo in the Hull Daily Mail of 17 March 2001 showing a bus in the site and another leaving it and turning right into Ferensway.
Malcolm Wells
23/08/11 – 09:51
Hi Malcolm, this comment of yours now clarifies and confirms the location of the terminal points of many Hull Corporation bus services in the early ‘thirties, which I have only come across as “bus stands situated in Ferensway, north of the electricity showrooms”. Sadly I didn’t see the photo in the HDM to which you referred.
Keith Easton
23/08/11 – 14:20
The aeroplane used for the Brough – Waltham (i.e. Grimsby) air ferry was G-ABFR, an example of the very rare Blackburn Segrave twin engined monoplane powered by two 120 h.p. de Havilland Gipsy III engines. It went on to Redhill Flying Club in May 1936. These details come from “British Civil Aircraft since 1919” by A.J. Jackson.
Roger Cox
Roger Cox re East Yorks Air Ferry thank you for taking the time to post the Aircraft info-I have not looked at the Bus Photos site for some weeks so did not find your posting it is appreciated and I have added the note to the print I have it’s marvellous how these sites makes info sharing so helpful. Whilst on East Yorkshire Fred Sharpe of Hedon had two Albions one rather old chain drive chara that came second hand from a Harrogate Hotel it had been a ferry for hotel Golfers then to Sharpes green colour source Ernie Sharp. The other a half cab Albion came from Bullocks Pontefract (Taylor Body I believe-unconfirmed.) Fred Sharpe and Ernest? Bullock were planning a through service to the East Coast exchanging passengers along the way but it never came to fruition.
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1957 AEC Regent V Roe HBB66R
Photographed at Scarborough bus station this Beverly Bar styled Regent V with normal V radiator is on route to Bridlington via the Butlins Holiday camp at Filey. I have now found my old fleet lists above information comes from one dated 20th February 1964 the only other snippet of information other than above is that this bus had a 9.6 litre engine
This was the last East Yorkshire full height bus with a Beverly Bar roof to enter service, it is now preserved and appears on the Northern Rally circuit.
Chris Hough
When I travelled daily from Hedon to Withernsea School on 651/652 they were always known as “Hovercrafts”. Don’t know why.
Martin Ferris
Eeee Martin, that takes me back. I was in the RAF at Patrington in 1955/6 – a Utopian posting for a lifelong devotee of the wonderful East Yorkshire Motor Services. Mark V Regents were still to come of course, but oh what treats you would have enjoyed on your school journeys a little earlier – Leyland PD1s and often, on duplicates from Hull Depot, the gorgeous ECW rebodied pre-war Titan TD5s. Due no doubt to a temporary shortage of transfers, or possibly a most enchanting mistake, some of the PD1s had on the platform rear wall the fabulous instruction “WAIT UNTIL THE COACH STOPS.” One of the Motor Transport drivers at our Patrington camp came to the end of his long regular service with the RAF and joined EYMS at Withernsea Depot – I’ve NEVER been as green with envy of anyone before or since. His surname was Mitchell (Mitch) and I hope he’s still around but will be well in his “eighties” by now.
Chris Youhill
With regards to Martins question two up:
Noise? Vibration? Pitching? Deafening engine fan? Ability to deal with run off water from fields?
Yet another example of a Regent V with a Regent III radiator. If I remember Leeds city Transport buses were nearly all semi automatic or had clutch less gearboxes of some description probable to help them off to quick start from the bus stops.
894 is the last of a huge batch which were ordered as tram replacements. The next batch numerically were fitted with 8′ wide bodies.
Terry Malloy
The last batches of post-war LCT buses to have full three pedal “clutch and gearbox” transmission were the Crossleys, the Leyland PD1s, the sixty Leyland PD2s (NNW batch), the six “standee” single deckers (2 Guy, 3 AEC Reliance and 3 Leyland Tiger Cub) – so rather more than is generally realised !!
Chris Youhill
Hi everyone, I meant to post this link a while ago, finally got around to it. www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=39972 It shows the first delivery of these vehicles to Torre Road Depot.
Terry Malloy
I think the reason for preferring clutchless transmissions, in common with several other municipal operators, was the need to retrain large numbers of tram drivers in a very short time. Far fewer people owned cars in those days, and many of those tram drivers would never have driven a motor vehicle. What about the PD2/11s (UUA batches)? I know some of them were specials with pneumo-cyclic transmission, but I didn’t think they all were.
Peter Williamson
The last manual gearbox double deckers were the sixty “NNW” Leyland PD2s. All subsequent double deck vehicles being semi automatic of one kind or another. Thereafter all AECs and Daimlers were either three pedal pre-selector or two pedal “monocontrol.” All Leylands were two pedal pneumo-cyclic with the exception of the batch of ten “RNW”s (301 -310) which were three pedal pre-selector, and were the only ones made other than the London Transport RTLs and RTWs. Passionately wishing to drive one of the latter, I booked a piece of teatime overtime out of Bramley and persuaded a bemused but helpful shift foreman to let me take 307, one of the only two remaining at the time – a great experience !!
Chris Youhill
31/07/12 – 05:43
The clutch you are referring to was a gear changing pedal (NOT A CLUTCH) they were known as preselctors, I used to love to drive them brings back memories going up Churwell Hill in the old girls, (52/53 Morley)
Roger Hopper
07/11/12 – 16:47
Snivelling out of Bramley Chris? You’re very lucky one of the PD1s wasn’t compulsory for you! When we had these at Torre Road Garage (301 – 310) we used to complain bitterly that they wouldn’t “Pull” up hills. Scott Hall Road 69 & 70 routes used to see old Hunslet MK3s flying past us. The regular Bramley drivers (used to PD1s & PD2s used to use a form of “double declutching” on these and other preselector buses – preselecting neutral between gears. Don’t know if this helped or not. Perhaps the Bramley mechanics knew how to tune them up properly as I never heard of any complaints about lack of power when the Bramley drivers got hold of them.
Bill Midgley
08/11/12 – 07:16
Most interesting memories Bill, thank you, and I had forgotten or was never aware that the “RTL”s had been at Torre Road. On that one joyous occasion that I drove 307 I found it went very well – unless I was mesmerised by the wonderful concerto of gurglings, compressed air hissings and tick over wobblings so as not to notice, and of course there were virtually no real hills on that particular piece of work, the entire outward journey from Bramley in the west to Barnbow Factory in the east being “private.” The Bramley practice you mention of “double de-clutching” is completely unorthodox, baffling, and quite un-necessary, and surely can have no advantage at all – in fact it entirely defeats the object of faultless gear changes for which the system was invented !!
Chris Youhill
08/11/12 – 11:12
Ah, but it must have been harder to fiddle a CVD or CWD like. The gearchange was not an H-gate but a quadrant, so the neutral position was not between the gears. Having said that, the sheer driver-crippling vindictiveness of the change pedal has entered the annals of bus folk-lore!
Stephen Ford
10/11/12 – 10:20
Chris, these buses were new to Torre Road Garage and serviced the 69 Moortown and 70 Primley Park via Scott Hall Road services. The crews were on the TRG Rota – the precursor to getting a “Regular” on a main route. At TRG, these were :- Dewsbury Road – Moortown – Middleton, Morley – Meanwood, East End Park Circular (included Moortown-Whitkirk & Leeds – Bradford), Lawnswood – Beeston, Half Mile Lane & Compton Road – Horsforth. Nearly everyone wanted to get onto Lawnswood because it had the best duty sheets – usually two “dinnertimes” in a late week. I worked out of TRG from 1958 – 1960 and had a “Regular” on Dewsbury Road before I went off to Headingley. When I first started, I was the youngest conductor on LCT being eighteen and two weeks! Ah! Those were the days – or maybe not!
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