Tag: Alexander

Sheffield Corporation – AEC Regent V – 7865 WJ – 865

Sheffield Corporation - AEC Regent V - 7865 WJ - 865

Sheffield Corporation
1960
AEC Regent V 2D3RA
Alexander H37/28R

This photo was taken just after lunch but as you can see this Regent V has the interior lights on, what a miserable day that was. I know this is not a very good shot but it is worth posting due to the fact that most Alexander bodied Regent Vs were delivered north of the border with the majority of them being to Glasgow Corporation. I think this vehicle one of a batch of 20 delivered to the Sheffield A fleet were the only ones delivered new to an English operator, if I am incorrect I am sure someone will let me know.

Sheffield like quite a few municipalities had separate fleets wholly or jointly owned within the overall operation.

Sheffield had three fleets A, B and C and were owned as follows.

A fleet Corporation owned (fleet numbers 1-999 in 1965)

B fleet Jointly owned by the Corporation and British Railways (fleet numbers 1251-1400 in 1965)

C fleet British Railways owned (fleet numbers 1150-1250 in 1965)

If you want to know the full specification for the Regent V 2D3RA you can look it up under the Regent V abbreviations here.

The only operator of this style of Alexander outside Scotland to predate them was Cardiff – definitely not England.

861 – 880 were the precursors of many Alexander bodies for STD, SYPTE and then Mainline. They looked good, and being AECs were good and sounded good. For some reason, the numbers didn’t add up. The Weymann and Roe 2D3RAs were all H39/30R(D – Roe) with bags of leg room. The Alexanders were H37/32R and whilst lack of legroom downstairs was understandable, what wasn’t was the distinct lack of room with fewer seats upstairs.

I have an unsubstantiated theory about the design – can anyone confirm, or squash it? Many 1940/50s Alexander deckers were built on Weymann (pre Orion) frames before this design emerged. Is it too fanciful to suggest that it was based on the same design and frames as the Rochdale Regent Vs and Sheffield Regent IIIs and Titan PD2s? [Curved domes and side windows?]

This Regent is on route 92 Manor Park – very close to the City Centre and would normally have had City on the blind. The photograph looks as if it was taken very close to the new Supertram depot and Park and Ride site which was not a regular haunt for these Regents. When new they could be seen on the 95 and 75 tram replacement routes and also drifted onto 60 and 38. Was this taken late in its life? The Alexanders and Roes were divided between Leadmill and East Bank garages, the Weymanns were all, I think, at East Bank.

874 was immaculately restored some years ago and is a regular on the northern rally circuit. But (trivia time), why did the last one (880) have a different type and style of rear number plate? I don’t know! If you know please leave a comment.

David Oldfield

02/03/11

Enjoyed the posting and the comment from David Oldfield with respect to the Alexander bodied Regent V’s. I must confess to liking the Weymanns a bit more, but the Scottish bodies certainly stood out with that rounded dome.
When still relatively new, I remember these Alexanders often making a Saturday appearance on the 34 Petre Street – Graves Park, along with some of the Weymann ones, running from East Bank, and they looked even more unusual on there, alongside the 1947 vintage Weymann bodied Regent III’s of the 558-572 batch that were still the mainstay of this service at the time. In fact two 30 footers arriving at Reform Chapel within minutes of each other was apt to cause a bit of a problem, as there wasn’t a lot of room to spare at the bus stop alongside the chapel opposite the chip shop!
I think the reason for 880 having a different rear end, with the registration plate in the standard position at the offside corner was that it had a rear end collision at some point, and emerged from Queens Road after repair in the altered state, thus making it unique in the batch.
When new, a colleague informs me that all the Alexanders initially went to Bramall Lane for the 33 and the 75 tram replacement routes, with the 26 Weymanns being split between Bramall Lane and Leadmill Road. Noteworthy on the Alexanders was the first offside window behind the cab being a hinged emergency escape window, something which of course the Weymanns didn’t have.
At least three of those superb Roe bodied ones were at Townhead Street when new, for use on the 85 to Retford, and also on the Dinnington services, where their platform doors were no doubt very well received, especially in the cold weather. The story has it that the Roe bodies initially lacked a centre stanchion on the platform, these being fitted sometime later after an unfortunately fatal accident which was attributed to the lack of a grab pole. More trivia!

Dave Careless

03/03/11 – 08:53

Dave. Thanks for filling in the allocation details. Townhead Street and Branhall Lane were operational when I was very young but had closed by the time I became really interested. I had forgotten, but you are absolutely right in every respect about the Roe centre stanchion and the fatality.

David Oldfield

04/03/11 – 07:39

Thanks David, I’m pleased you found that of interest.
Those Roe bodied Regent V’s were wonderful machines, I always felt they looked a lot more elegant when they were new, with the standard Roe version of the Sheffield livery, with the blue window surrounds, and the classy bodybuilders gold transfer on the waistband, at the side of the cab and just forward of the entrance, very smart indeed. And the styling of that Roe emergency window simply couldn’t be beat!
After Chaceley T. Humpidge took over as General Manager in 1961, and did away with the livery variations, including the grey roof after first overhaul (not that any of 1325-1349 ever saw this application), the Roes never looked quite as smart in the standard cream with blue bands, but that’s merely a personal preference.
It’s a pity that you missed Townhead Street in its heyday, as that was quite something to see, with the trams downstairs in the basement and the buses up above, and a parking area along the side where half-cab single deckers seemed to invariably sit. Mind you, passing Greenland Road or Herries Road late at night, with the lights blazing and the garage and forecourt stuffed full of immaculate cream and blue buses, was equally as breath taking if you were an enthusiast! Quite often my father would indulge me and pull the car over for a few minutes so I could savour the atmosphere and jot down a few numbers; happy days.

Dave Careless

04/03/11 – 17:19

Happy days indeed, Dave. Barbie just doesn’t do it. Nor does red, white and blue – but at least Mr Souter does know how to run a bus company even if Dennis Dust Carts have as much charisma as a wet weekend in….. (fill your own space – I don’t want to upset friends on this site!)
If you read any other posts, you’ll know my thing is AEC, Roe and Burlingham – so 1325-49 are my all time favourites, followed by the nine 1952 Regent IIIs. [I too preferred the Weymanns over the Alexanders.]
Strangely enough, my favourite PD2s were the 1952 all Leylands which eventually gained Roe style livery after being delivered in green. I believe they were the only brand new green deliveries – or were the 1952 Regent/Roe rebuilds also delivered in green?

David Oldfield

06/03/11 – 08:06

You’ve got my vote there, David; funnily enough, those twelve OWB registered PD2’s were far and away my favourite Sheffield Titans also, they somehow looked a cut above the Faringtons, I think it was those push-out vents in the upstairs front windows that gave them the edge!
Before I came to Canada in the late fifties, I made a regular weekly excursion with my mother from Rotherham to the grandmother’s in the east end of Sheffield, accomplished by bus and tram, a 69 from Rotherham to Attercliffe, and a tram from the corner of Newhall Road to Upwell Street, and reverse. In those days, the 69 offering was either a Sheffield PD2 or a Rotherham Crossley, either of which was guaranteed to provide a memorable journey, but if it happened to be one of the OWB’s that turned up, then that was definitely a bonus. The unmistakeable sound and steady beat of that Leyland engine is such a strong recollection that I can almost hear it now as I sit typing in Canada fifty plus years later.
The world seemed to be a different place then, and I also travelled on the bus unaccompanied a lot at an age where it would be deemed unthinkable to allow children to do so today. I once travelled to Sheffield upstairs on a Rotherham Crossley that was packed with Sheffield Wednesday supporters heading to an evening match, and the air upstairs was blue with cigarette smoke and strong language, to the extent that I was enjoying it so much that instead of alighting at Newhall Road as I was supposed to, stayed on into the Wicker and had to catch another bus back to the east end. I can still see and hear that Crossley now, pulling away up the Wicker towards the terminus at Waingate, well down on its springs at the back with the nearly full load and trailing a plume of exhaust smoke behind it into the city centre. Those weekly outings on the 69 were sorely missed when they eventually came to an end.
Of course, one of the OWB’s, 666, lived on as gritter/towing tender G56 for many years, and was a regular sight at one time, struggling back to East Bank with yet another broken down Atlantean hanging off its back. I’m not sure how, but even with its upper deck and most of the back end missing, it still managed to look more elegant than half the modern things it was sent out to rescue!!
Not quite sure just when and where those Roe rebodied FWA-Regents got their green paint applied David, that one needs a fair bit of research. Good question though.

Dave Careless

06/03/11 – 09:06

Strange. An exile in Surrey corresponding with an exile in Canada. Good this internet, eh?
I first went solo, on a bus, aged ten. From Greenhill to Woodseats on an SWE Regent III – and similar back – on an errand for my father. Mission accomplished, my second solo was to town and back on the same afternoon on two similar vehicles. After that, there was no going back!
My experience of the 6** PD2s was mostly on the 93 and occasionally the 32 to visit Grandparents. They never seemed to be on the 23 when I visited the other Gps.

David Oldfield

09/03/11 – 06:05

Those SWE-Regents were cracking machines, superb looking, with their chromium wheel nut rings, which they seemed to keep right to the end, and the sound they made, with that straight-through exhaust, was quite something. What one wouldn’t give for a run from Greenhill to Woodseats and back on one of them today.
Even my father, who wasn’t into buses at all, was heard to remark ” …. those Sheffield buses have a wonderful bark to them!” I still have a slide I persuaded him to take one day at Reform Chapel, in the east end, of SWE 281 waiting patiently for the crew to return from the nearby cafe before setting off for Hollythorpe Rise. Could that really have been 49 years ago??!!

Dave Careless

10/03/12 – 07:42

Talking of the terminus at Reform Chapel, we had a choice of two routes to centre at that time, the 34 Petre St to Graves Park or the 17 Sheffield Lane Top to Millhouses Park which had been recently been a tram service, being only about eight or nine when the trams ran, I wish I had been a little older so I would have had more interest in the trams, as it was my brother and I loved to stand at the front of the bus looking out over the engine compartment, which we considered the best view out of the bus, how disappointed we were when the Atlanteans were introduced and lost this vantage point! The uses on the 17 route were usually Leyland PD3’s as I found out later in life, as it sped down Attercliffe Road, we peered at the square speedometer to see if the bus would get up to or even break the 40 mph barrier, my fathers car at that time was a two cylinder Transit sized Jowett Bradford van which struggled to get over 30 mph downhill with wind behind us! Great days which the children of today will never know the adventure of bus travel, the smell, the noise and the vibration, more’s the pity.

David T

10/03/12 – 15:58

It’s hard to believe that an OWB was used as a towing tender, with something like a mere 36bhp on hand! That’s really pushing such a willing workhorse to near cruelty!

Chris Hebbron

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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

11/03/12 – 07:47

With great respect David T I had to chuckle at the promotion of the Jowett Bradford van to “Transit” size – I think that such a colossal vehicle would have brought the willing little power unit to its knees, but the Bradford was a wonderful little van of around “Escort” size. In 1960 there was in Ilkley a delightful very elderly posh lady who used the most decrepit of all Bradford vans – both front wings were literally almost falling off and several volunteers were regularly needed to push start the van on the Ilkley car park. Well Mrs. S***** used to revel in telling us of her exploits and narrow escapes with a mischievous twinkle in her weary old eyes. My favourite (and one of her best) was when she was on the A59 in Preston heading for Blackpool – descending a hill towards the huge Tulketh cotton mill she encountered a bobby on cross roads point duty with hand raised – shooting past him she eventually rolled to a stop to find the PC chasing after her, notebook and pencil at the ready. “Have you no brakes on this vehicle” demanded The Law – leaving him perplexed as she set off Mrs. S***** replied “Of course I have officer – they simply failed to function !!”

Chris Youhill

11/03/12 – 07:50

I almost fell for that one Chris H!!

Chris Barker

11/03/12 – 08:56

Forgive me for being off topic but Chris Y’s tale of that Jowett Bradford van brought back old memories of one owned by Mr Mc.Maughan a local painter and decorator who was a bit of a carefree old sort and used to wipe his brushes out on the side of his van! Originally a mid fawn colour, it became covered in hundreds of multicoloured stripes.. it didn’t go any faster though..30 mph was a dream!
Mentioning paint… when we lived in Conway Road, Brislington, Bristol, our neighbour Bert Staddon was an engineer at Bristol Commercial Vehicles and once hit on the strange idea of painting the stonework of his house in BCV silver chassis paint. That was in 1958 and to this day, it is still clearly evident but must have puzzled many people over the years..good stuff though!
Again..total apologies for this thread drift.

Richard Leaman

11/03/12 – 15:48

As a youngster I made regular Sunday trips to Sheffield to see relatives. We travelled from Leeds to Sheffield Midland station, we then walked across the city to the terminus of the sixty nine to Rotherham. The buses seen were always of interest particularly the early Atlanteans which were unheard of in Leeds. Sheffield’s buses always seemed very different to those in Leeds Usually our steed was a Leyland Titan which always had a fair turn of speed they had string bell pulls which again were unknown in Leeds as was the strap placed across the platform when the bus was full. Prior to nineteen sixty if we were upstairs on the bus I got a glimpse of Tinsley tram depot with many cars resting from their labour, strangely I don’t recall ever seeing a Sheffield car actually running. It all seems very different to today were only the destinations tell you that you are in a different place

Chris Hough

11/03/12 – 19:33

Chris Y – Lovely tale about the Bradford. I have a friend who worked for Brooke Bond and they trundled around the country stocking up shops with Lever Bros/Unilever products. They were allocated Trojan vans, some of the earlier ones still having chain drive! They were gutless and, as a new employee, you covered staff who were on holiday or sick. His first job was in the South Wales Valleys and he got stuck a couple of times on the hills and had to be assisted to the top of hills. He later found that the normal driver had devised a fixed route, which had gentler rises and steeper falls, the only way he could do the rounds! Later models had Perkins diesel engines,, which had a little more power.

Chris Hebbron

11/03/12 – 20:13

The mention of Trojan Vans reminds me that Edinburgh Corporation Passenger Department had a good number as service vans.

Philip Carlton

Alexander (Midland) – AEC Regent III – CWG 871 – MRC8

CWG 871

W Alexander & Sons (Midland) Ltd 
1951
AEC Regent III 09612E
Alexander L27/26R

Although Alexanders purchased significant numbers of Regals and Reliances, they only purchased one batch of 20 double deck buses from AEC, all of which joined the Midland fleet when the company split into three.
As with virtually all the double deckers bought new by Alexanders post war, it has an own-build lowbridge body, and this batch was among the first to carry the new style with a rounded dome compared with the slightly angular earlier style based on the Leyland design.
MRC8 is seen here parked up at Stirling Bus Station on 4 November 1969, and carries a Bannockburn depot plate. It also displays the then relatively new style of “Midland” fleetname, replacing the traditional Alexander style. The traditional Alexander smartness belies 18 years of service; by this stage many of its fellows had already been withdrawn.
The other feature of this bus is that it represents “A is for . . .” for chassis, body and operator, and therefore represents a fitting introduction to a presentation I am giving at the Leicester Transport Historical Trust meeting in Leicester on Saturday 11th April 2015. This is entitled Alphabet Soup, featuring British buses from A to Z in the late 60s/early 70s. Within the alphabet, the main emphasis will be on chassis and body manufacturers, with operator names filling in the gaps, and I shall be highlighting as far as possible unusual rather than standard products. LTHT meetings are held at the New Walk Museum in Leicester, starting at 10 a.m. www.ltht.org.uk/monthly%20meetings.htm

Photograph and Copy contributed by Alan Murray-Rust

10/04/17 – 06:42

The ‘Midland’ (BMMO-style) fleetname is actually the third version to be used after the Alexander company split. The first was an underlined scroll similar to that used originally by Fife and Northern. They then reverted to the traditional Alexander style, but emphasising MidlanD as the middle line rather than AlexandeR. These 20 chassis were diverted from a Scottish Omnibuses order – recompense for the rubbish transferred from SO with the Dundee area perhaps?

Peter Bolton

SMT – AEC Regal IV – JSF 149 – B 449

SMT - AEC Regal IV - JSF 149 - B 449

Scottish Motor Traction
1952
AEC Regal IV 9821E
Alexander C30F

SMT, who later became Eastern Scottish, were a regular sight in Newcastle, they shared several routes into Scotland with United, and this one is discharging its passengers at the drop off point in the Haymarket Bus Station. There were three different routes to Edinburgh, and two to Glasgow. Morning departures on the Edinburgh routes were United vehicles, with SMT covering the afternoons, and vice versa from the other end, and I think it was the same for the more direct route to Glasgow. However, one of the Glasgow routes was a very long drawn out affair, with a running time of over seven hours. If memory serves, the vehicles met a point which was roughly half way where a refreshment stop was taken, the crews would then swap vehicles and return to their start point, but the vehicles would carry on and return the following day. It was also the case that in the event of a breakdown, the other company would provide a replacement, so presumably an arrangement existed with the insurance which allowed the other companies crews to man the vehicles. They were in abundance in Scotland, but this type of Alexander body never caught on south of the border to the same extent as the later ‘Y’ types, although North Western did have a few. Personally, I thought they were not a million miles away from the Park Royal body of the period.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

20/03/14 – 07:12

Although they eventually developed their own style, Alexanders did set out building clones – often under subcontract – of other companies’ designs (notably Leyland and Weymann). They did a PRV/Monocoach copy but I don’t know whether these Regal IVs were on PRV frames. In the recent Y type book it was pointed out that this style of flat windscreen lasted (on AL deckers) until the ’80s. The North Western Leopards – and the Reliances which preceded them were not strictly to this design at all. They were a standard BET design structure with this style windscreen grafted on to the front.[There were, I believe, others too – as well as “bog standard” BET bodies without a whiff of Alexander about the style.]

David Oldfield

20/03/14 – 17:40

Pseudo Willowbrook, perhaps?

Pete Davies

20/03/14 – 17:41

On the point of driver change over on the “long” Glasgow route, I have a feeling that the same thing happened at Penrith on the Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh services. Something similar happened on the X2/X60 group of interconnected routes: (Great Yarmouth)/ Nottingham/ Manchester/ Blackpool).

David Oldfield

22/03/14 – 08:30

On the subject of driver changes en-route when I became an express services driver at Southdown’s Eastbourne depot in 1970, a journey from Margate to Bournemouth on the South Coast Express service that passed through Eastbourne around midday with an East Kent driver who took his meal break there. The coach either an East Kent Reliance/Park Royal or a Royal Blue Bristol RE/ECW was then taken to Brighton by one of our drivers who handed it over to a Royal Blue driver who had just taken his meal break who then took it on to Bournemouth. The Eastbourne driver then took over the coach brought in by the Royal Blue driver which he then took back to Eastbourne to hand over to the East Kent driver after his meal break to take back to Margate thus all three drivers drove a coach from both East Kent and Royal Blue. This experience led me to prefer the Reliance over the RE and nothing ever persuaded me otherwise especially when accessing the underfloor lockers of the RE on a wet day

Diesel Dave

25/03/14 – 10:14

This is Prudhoe Place just south of the Haymarket Bus Station in Newcastle. The building in the background was a cinema (and if we could so what film was being advertised we could probably date the photo). Just to the right of the camera was the famous Mobile Canteen MC2 (and was there ever an MC1?). Buses that were going to lay over usually dropped-off passengers here and then parked on the other side of the stand, rear-end inwards. This was also the pick-up point for Tynemouth 5 and United 8 during the afternoon peak period until all New Coast Road buses moved to St Mary’s Place in the late 1960s.
The Edinburgh routes via Otterburn (9 later 508) and Wooler (15 later 510) were irregular. There was an Edinburgh SMT bus that left Edinburgh at about 09.00 for Newcastle via Otterburn and then returned via Wooler mid-afternoon. There was also an Edinburgh SMT bus that left Edinburgh at about 10.30 for Newcastle via Wooler and returned at 16.45 via Otterburn. Edinburgh crews worked both buses right through. There were only a couple of 5 minute stops en route.
The Edinburgh route via Berwick (12 later 505/6) was hourly south of Berwick and more or less hourly north of Berwick. There were only a couple of 5 minute stops en route. As far as I know United buses worked through to Edinburgh but usually had SMT crews north of Berwick. SMT buses worked through to Newcastle but usually had United crews south of Berwick. However some of the scheduling was quite complex: buses might meet and swap crews at Niddrie Cross Roads, just outside Edinburgh, to get the crew back to Berwick before the end of service.
The Glasgow route (14 later 515) was once a day in winter and twice a day in summer. It was very slow and had a 45 minute stop at Galashiels. The buses worked right through but met at Galashiels where the crews swapped over. The United crew was, latterly, from Whitley Bay. There were also summer Saturday express journeys, that took about 5 hours, on which the crews worked right through, and came back the same day. At Glasgow holiday period there were often lots of duplicates and crews from a variety of depots north and south of the border.
Scotland definitely had its own culture, which included labels on bus windscreens, as shown in this photo. Why it was normal, north of the border, to use labels to show the route and destination I never could work out. Were there too many destinations and route variations at each depot to include on one blind?

Paul Robson

25/03/14 – 15:48

Paul Robson makes mention of paper stickers on the windscreen for the service/destination. Surely this is preferable to showing ‘SERVICE’ or ‘DUPLICATE’ as mentioned in another thread which is on the go at the minute.
Good on yer Scottish Bus Group.

Stephen Howarth

27/03/14 – 06:53

At the old National Express/Shamrock and Rambler Coach Station (77 Holdenhurst Road) the toilets were situated at the rear of the booking hall.
The passageway had a huge rack (like a postal sorting rack for letters) that held yellow paper destination labels for literally all the served destinations in the South of England together with such labels as “On Hire To”.
I remember seeing one London label being held up (cheekily) by a hitchhiker on the Ringwood Sour Road.

David R

11/02/15 – 06:03

Newcastle services were run by SMT until 1964 under service nos 230, 231, (Berwick), 270 (Jedburgh) and 273 (Kelso) with other nos for services on these routes purely North of the Border. Glasgow – Newcastle/Whitley Bay was 252. Glasgow Scarborough was also a joint service on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays with a night service from Glasgow on a Friday, returning North on Saturday night.

Mr Anon

17/12/15 – 17:00

I really must most strongly disagree with Alexander “having started building clones.” they built their first coachwork in 1921 a number of years before Park Royal were even formed; and while they were happy to build to another coachbuilder’s outline when required (a rather awful Park Royal look for SBG from 1955-7 or a rather old-fashioned Weymann outline for Glasgow in 1953-5) they built to their own too, and the Eastern Regal IV is entirely a product of Drip Road Stirling.
I’d contend the bus in the following  link is somewhat more imaginative and indeed stylish than any mid-1930’s product of NW10. www.flickr.com/photos/
The use of of the word clone in relation to Leyland bodies implies they were building to a Leyland outline to win custom; in fact they built utilities and postwar double decks to Leyland outline because Leyland body production had been halted by the government because Leyland was needed to make tanks; Alexander were in fact operating with Leyland’s blessing and full co-operation.
Leyland chose three bodybuilders for prototype Tiger Cubs, they were MCW, Saunders-Roe and Alexander, and when the coach version of the Tiger Cub was planned all of the Leyland prototypes including the one that lapped MIRA at 80mph were bodied by Alexander.
The bus prototype worked for Starks of Dunbar and then Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway, still in service with the latter in 1975, not bad for a lightweight.
Alexander designs are I would contend more often copied than Alexander copied other designs.

Stephen Allcroft

19/12/15 – 06:59

Two further corrections: Contrary to David Oldfield the angled windscreen was available on R type double-deckers as late as 1999; secondly I got the start date of Alexander’s coachbuilding (initially at Camelon) a year early in the previous post, still Alexander were building bus and coach bodies in 1922 and Hall, Lewis only started in North West London two years later. Park Royal Vehicles was formed after Hall, Lewis’s liquidation by their major creditor in 1930; eight years after Alexander started.
Incidentally the Lewis family also owned Northern Counties Motor and Engineering Company Ltd.
PRV didn’t do an Alexander A-type copy but there were quite a few from Roe, which were done using PRV frames, and it Alexander’s design of double curvature windscreen was used on a number of otherwise standard Park Royal and Roe products.
Northern Counties of course copied the Panoramic J type for Yorkshire Traction.

Stephen Allcroft

W Alexander & Sons – AEC Regal III – DMS 130 – NA 104

W Alexander & Sons - AEC Regal III - DMS 130 - NA 104

W Alexander & Sons (Northern)
1951
AEC Regal III 6821A
Alexander C35F

Here is a view of DMS130. This AEC Regal III 6821A was new to W Alexander & Sons in 1951, with an Alexander C35F body as A104. When the company split, she passed to the Northern section as NA 104. She is seen in this guise in the yard of the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton in May 1977. The then preservationists lived in nearby Bishops Waltham.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

01/09/13 – 14:13

The bus is still preserved, and there are many photos on my website at www.vintagebus.org

John Braga

10/04/17 – 06:38

This is one of six chassis ordered by James Sutherland of Peterhead immediately before their takeover by Alexanders in 1950. They were due to have Duple bodies similar to Sutherland’s six recently delivered Leyland PS1s which became Alexander PA197-202. However they were put to the back of the queue at Alexanders Coachbuilders and instead received some of their last halfcab bodies, 8ft wide on a 7ft 6in chassis, in a style also fitted to Alexanders 20 OPS2s. Duple was upset by this, so a number of Alexander pre-war Leylands were rebodied by Duple to fulfill the order.

Peter Bolton

Smiths Luxury Coaches – AEC Regal I – HTJ 857


Copyright Ray Soper

Smiths Luxury Coaches (Reading) Ltd
1940 
AEC Regal I
Alexander FC35F

This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

18/10/11 – 05:43

A historic item about Alexander`s that seems to have been missed on all accounts.
In 1947, Central SMT acquired 50 PD1A chassis and they went to Alexander for bodying. Alexander were trying out a new system of riveting body panels together instead of welding. Unfortunately, this was unsuccessful, and this caused a delay. 25 of the chassis stayed with Alexander and the rest were sent to Northern Counties.
Central`s first batch of All Leyland PD2s came into service in Spring 1948, and the PD1As didn’t come into service until 1949. The Alexander bodies were similar to the preserved Ribble TD5.

Jim Hepburn

28/12/11 – 07:28

Does anyone know the current whereabouts of Ron shacks old motor JRD 990 AEC it was at one time kept at Sandtoft but is thought to be back down Reading way. I would love to find it and also would like to know if any other Ex Smiths Coaches/Buses still exist. There has to be something left, Doesn’t there? Thanks for any help and advice.

Paul Avenell

04/10/12 – 07:25

A partial fleet history of Smith’s which can be accessed on the internet gives a construction date of 1948, which is consistent with the registration. Also says converted to full-front in 1958 – by Smiths? The said fleet history – and Ray Soper’s gallery – quote the vehicle as having been acquired from Comrose in 1958 – who were they? I don’t recognise the name as that of a one-time coach operator. I certainly don’t recognise it as being that of a one-time Lancashire-based coach operator, and it carries a Lancashire registration – so who had the vehicle from new? All questions, no answers this time I’m afraid.

David Call

04/10/12 – 18:06

Fortunately the PSVC are currently publishing details of buses with Lancashire registrations in their Journal, so we have their history of HTJ 857:
AEC Regal I / Trans-United C33F, new 12/47 to Florence Motors, Morecambe.
To Corvedale MS, Ludlow, 1950; Skylark, Salisbury, 12/52; Twist, Virginia Water, c8/55. Then it’s reported as going at an unknown date to Conrose Coaches, whom the PSVC haven’t been able to identify but they speculate that they may have been the same operator as Twist.
Then to Smiths in 6/58 and rebodied with a 1936 Alexander FC35F body from a Leyland Cheetah, probably WS 8001 or WS 8039.
Withdrawn by Smiths in 8/64 and to Fields (Reading) Ltd as a non-PSV, last licensed 7/66.

Michael Wadman

Western SMT – Bristol MW6G – MSD 358 – NT1494

MSD 358

Western Scottish Motor Traction Co. Limited
1959
Bristol MW6G
Alexander C41F

MSD 358; fleet number NT1494, is a 1959 Bristol MW6G, one of 52 with Alexander C41F bodies built for Western SMT. They remained in service until 1977, which speaks volumes for the build quality of the body and chassis and the thoroughness of Western’s maintenance programme. The wheel trims on the vehicle behind would suggest that its an AEC, it has a coach door, and at the risk of splitting hairs I would say this ones folding doors and grab rails on the backs of the seats are more the type associated with a DP rather than a coach. This style of body was widely used by SMT group operators, and they were a common sight on the Newcastle to Edinburgh and Glasgow services jointly operated with United. They have a resemblance to the Park Royal bodies of the era, and I always thought they were attractive vehicle. However, unlike the later “Y” type that became a common sight throughout the UK, they were never that popular South of the Border, although North Western did have a few.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

22/05/14 – 07:27

North Western’s used the BET standard bus shell (known to Alexander as the Z type) with a straight waist-rail and equal windows throughout the length except for the very rear. Alexanders just stuck their front end (as seen on this vehicle) onto the BET spec body. North Western called them “Highlanders” and painted them in coach livery. As a coach they made a perfectly acceptable dual-purpose vehicle!

Neville Mercer

22/05/14 – 07:28

Ronnie, I think you’ll find that North Western’s examples were of the straight waistrail variant. You could almost say that this one anticipated bus grant type doors by a good few years!

Chris Barker

22/05/14 – 07:28

The North Western vehicles came in 1961as Reliances in 30 ft length with a straight window line and equal length windows plus roof quarter lights. They were followed in 1962 by the 36 ft version on the Leopard chassis.

Phil Blinkhorn

22/05/14 – 07:29

Strange to think that they also had almost identical Guys. Both were highly regarded so must simply have been a dual sourcing thing. Strictly speaking, the only English examples belonged to Barton – North Western never had any of these. What North Western DID have were standard BET bodies (built by Alexanders) but with this front grafted on. These were on Reliances and its first PSU3 Leopards. The recent book on the Y type points out that this twin flat screen design lasted into the ’80s as it was still being used on AL deckers – such as those delivered between 1973 and 1981 to STD and, later, SYPTE.

David Oldfield

22/05/14 – 14:22

Fully agree with the quality of build and good maintenance Ronnie – I recall the Guys working out of Carlisle on services to Annan as late as 1976. What struck me most about Western SMT in those days was that the vehicles were usually turned out in an immaculate condition. The fully lined out livery was also superb though it lost its edge once standard SBG fleet names replaced gold at the end of the decade.

Mike Morton

23/05/14 – 07:55

As well as Barton James Smith & Co (Wigan) Ltd and the associated Webster Bros (Wigan) both had Leyland Tiger Cub versions of this body. The six Barton Tiger Cubs were operated for over 19 years and then sold on to other operators. Now that is long service particularly as Tiger Cubs were considered by many to be too lightweight and not up to the job!

Alan Oxley

23/05/14 – 07:56

David, I think that you might have forgotten the batch supplied to Smiths of Wigan, some of which later served with Green Bus. There was also the Lancashire-registered Tiger Cub/Alexander demonstrator TTB 80 which served with Caelloi Motors in Pwllheli before ending up with Partridge of Hadleigh (and burning out at the depot!)

Neville Mercer

23/05/14 – 13:06

I stand corrected. Thanks, chaps.

David Oldfield

26/05/14 – 09:36

Note the use of service number ’30X’. The joint Western SMT/Ribble Lancashire-Scottish services, on paper at least, carried different service numbers north and south of Carlisle. The daytime Manchester-Glasgow service was X30 in the Ribble series (and therefore the service number south of Carlisle) and 97A in the WSMT series (north of Carlisle). Maybe WSMT didn’t have letters in the first of the three ‘number’ blinds and so ‘X30′ was displayed as ’30X’. The night service was numbered X20 and 97B on the same basis.
In the summer 1964 timetable the northbound X30 took 9 hours 45 minutes end to end (9 hours 33 minutes southbound). Quite a marathon!
Can anyone tell if this photo was taken in the Manchester area? Perhaps the railway catenary at top right is a clue?

David Slater

03/06/14 – 07:35

Manchester is highly plausible, since very few places had overhead electrified railways in 1959. Manchester had two going on three (Altrincham and Sheffield, with Crewe in progress). So, taking a stab in the dark, I’d suggest the pointy building in the background is not unlike the City Road Inn at the junction of Albion Street and Whitworth Street West. That’s right beside the Altrincham line and a stone’s throw from Lower Moseley Street bus station. Though looking on Street View its hard to place the viewpoint. But so much as obviously changed around there in the intervening 55 years.

Keith

03/06/14 – 11:16

Keith has the location spot on as far as I’m concerned. This was a regular overflow parking spot for Lower Mosley St Bus Station.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/07/14 – 16:29

There was also a 1955 example of this style for Kingston Coaches on Guy Arab LUF; the furthest south this style got.
Alan Oxley will know but I think either Barton or Western SMT were the last customer for this version, Barton switching to Reliances from 1955.
By 1956 the Alexander and SOL were taking a straight waist variant.

Stephen Allcroft

13/10/15 – 06:27

I Remember Edinburgh Corporation had Coaches of this type in its City Tours Fleet. They were on Leyland chassis and looked very smart in there Black and Ivory Colours similar to Western SMTs London coaches. When they were finished with there coaching duties they were sold to Ulster at the beginning of the 1960s. Does anyone have any photos when they were with Edinburgh

George Fender

16/08/16 – 07:26

In the late 60’s, as a student, I travelled several times on the night bus from Manchester to Glasgow. I don’t know about other nights of the week, but on Fridays there were so many passengers that there were three buses. Once you were “in the know”, if you were going all the way to Glasgow, it paid to turn up at Lower Moseley Street half an hour in advance of the scheduled time as the first of the three buses would leave early and full and only stop at Penrith for toilets and the all-night cafe. The first time I made the journey, I was on the third bus, which left at the advertised time and stopped everywhere, of course getting to Penrith just after a lot of other buses going north and south so the queue at the cafe was just too long to contemplate. As I remember it, though, even the third bus would arrive at Glasgow much earlier than timetabled.

Malcolm Wood

Eastern Scottish – Bristol RE – EWS 166D – XA 166 A

Eastern Scottish
1966
Bristol RELH6G
Alexander C38F

Seen on layover in London are three of the Alexander C38F bodied Bristol RELH6G coaches operated by Eastern Scottish from a batch totalling 33 vehicles of the type delivered in 1966. These toilet equipped coaches brought a new level of refinement to the lengthy journey between the Capital and Caledonia for several years. In this picture, none of the vehicles is carrying the “Bristol RE” nameplate on the radiator grille which they certainly wore at another time in their lives.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

11/07/22 – 06:02

Just to clarify, the vehicles from left to right are EWS 166D, EWS 193D and EWS 190D, with matching fleet numbers XA166/193/190 A.

Roger Cox

11/07/22 – 06:03

I could be wrong on this ‘I frequently am’ but I’m pretty sure that the services to Scotland, i.e. Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness, were all overnight only.
Unlike the United Tyne Tees Thames, which was twice a day. 8am and pm if memory serves.

Ronnie Hoye

12/07/22 – 05:43

Eastern Scottish did operate daytime services between London and Edinburgh, per my photo herewith.

Richard Slater

13/07/22 – 06:15

Thanks for that, Richard. I did say that I was frequently wrong.
The location looks to be the start of the Tyne Bridge, heading north towards Newcastle.
The bus facing us, is probably a Gateshead & District Alexander ‘A’ type bodied Leyland Atlantean, and the one to the left is a Newcastle Corporation, or possibly by that time a PTA turning to go towards Gateshead Station.
Bit hard to tell, but my guess would be a P/R bodied MkV AEC Regent.

Ronnie Hoye

13/07/22 – 06:16

I think you’ll find that you are both correct. Eastern Scottish called the daytime services “Tours” – as they took 2/3 days to do the journey with overnight stops.

David Oldfield

14/07/22 – 06:01

The Summer 1969 ABC Bus and coach guide shows conventional daytime journeys on both routes (Edinburgh and Glasgow), which completed the journeys within the same day. As far as I know, the 2/3 day tours were only operated by Eastern Scottish.
Departure was at 08:00 from both ends, on both routes.

Nigel Frampton

15/07/22 – 06:05

Memory tells me that, in my student days in Birmingham, the Standerwicks would move out of the fast lane only for blue lights and the Scottish coaches, and I think they were usually Western, rather than Eastern, on the M6.

Pete Davies

16/07/22 – 06:24

Speaking as a retired LGV Instructor, Pete, I can tell you quite categorically that there is no such thing as the ‘Fast Lane’ on UK Motorways. You drive on the left, unless overtaking

Ronnie Hoye

17/07/22 – 06:29

Ronnie: Unfortunately regardless of how many times broadcasters have been told by me and others to stop using “Fast Lane” in traffic reports they will persist and thus those like Pete perpetuate it in everyday usage.
I remember once climbing the M6 southbound from Penrith towards Shap Summit and there were 3 coaches from different companies (Well different liveries anyway) having a 3 mile drag race up the gradient.

John Lomas