Potteries Motor Traction 1968 AEC Reliance 691 8U2RA Alexander DP49F
SL1103 is at the Barlaston terminus of services 24/25 having worked the service from Hanley on 3rd May 1970. Barlaston was a pleasant village on the south eastern side of the Stoke conurbation, it’s main fame at that time being the nearby Wedgwood China factory. This was one of PMTs second batch of these Reliances, differing from the previous delivery in having folding doors in lieu of glider type. Both batches had low back dual purpose seating. The 8U2R chassis specification denotes coil spring suspension. The ride on these could be quite bouncy when the shock absorbers were in less than good condition.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
20/02/15 – 16:31
The last couple of years of its life were spent at the Newcastle under Lyme depot I loved this bus I remember one weekend on the Saturday doing express to Skegness and being relieved at Newark on the way back, I then travelled on the cushions back to Depot. Next day I took it to Blackpool on excursion. I probably drove this vehicle more than any one else whilst it was at Newcastle some one wrote in the cab “Croftys bus” another favourite Route was express to Peterborough Saturday’s only. It was great on service as well. Happy days.
Michael Crofts
02/05/20 – 06:48
Looking at a PMT Fleetlist for May 1979 it stated that most of the Alexander Y type Reliances had AH590 engines. This begs the question, was the AH691 unreliable or was there a difficulty in obtaining spares? I recall seeing several former Maidstone & District Reliances dating from 1965 passing through the Central Works at Stoke for parts recovery and so some of the AH590 engines could have been sourced from these. Likewise at least one former North Western Reliance was received from Crosville for the same reason.
Leekensian
03/05/20 – 06:34
Could be that the fleetlist is wrong. The AH691 gradually replaced the AH590 from 1967 and by 1969 had done so completely. The 8U2R was a variant of the 6U2R – which only ever had (initially) the AH691 and (latterly) the AH760.
David Oldfield
04/05/20 – 05:46
David, the fleetlist was included in a publication issued by PMT in 1979 entitled ‘a century of public transport in North Staffordshire’. The fleetlist states that buses 1092 to 1096, 103 to 109 and 161 to 163 as 8U2R with AEH691 engines, whilst fleet numbers 164 to 173 as 6U2R with AH691 engines. However there is a footnote along side the entries stating – most have AH590 engines.
Leekensian
05/05/20 – 05:52
The 8U2R Reliance had coil spring suspension (very few built), the more common 6U2R had conventional leaf Spring suspension.
Ian Wild
05/05/20 – 05:53
Confirmation, FEH 171J fleet number 171 had a AH691 engine.
Alan Coulson
06/05/20 – 07:06
All the Alexander Y type bodied Reliances were supplied with AH691 engines. From memory, the cylinder liners in this engine were a VERY tight fit in the parent bore (figures of 20 tons needed on the press come to mind). It could be that as the engines aged, the cylinder blocks got past having new liners fitted and fitting redundant AH 590 engines in place could well have been a more economical method of keeping elderly vehicles running.
Highland Omnibuses 1966 AEC Reliance 590 2U3RA Alexander DP49F
Highland Omnibuses BA26 (EWS 115D) was a AEC Reliance with an Alexander Y-type body. It was new to Eastern Scottish, being transferred to Highland in mid-life. I have always thought that there is a fine line between coach and dual-purpose versions of the Y-type. This example was classed as a coach by Eastern Scottish, but was definitely dual-purpose by the time this photo was taken. It is seen approaching Upper Achintore (with Loch Linnhe in the background) on a Fort William local service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
29/11/15 – 09:59
Don, I’ve always understood that the way to tell the difference between a Y bus and a Y coach was the number of side widows. The bus had more, smaller, windows while the coach, as illustrated here, had fewer and bigger ones. . . . and as for the DP designation. I’ve always understood it was a bus body with coach seats, or fewer seats so as to make the longer journey more comfortable. Of course, going the other way, and downgrading a coach, you might cut down the seat backs, and put another row of seats in!
Pete Davies
29/11/15 – 14:45
I thought it was ‘coach’ seats but with ticket equipment fittings and power doors. Allowing the vehicle to be used on bus or coach services as required.
Ian Comley
30/11/15 – 06:47
Northern Scottish reseated some 53 bus seated Leopards to 49 dual purpose seats. The body had small windows!
Stephen Bloomfield
30/11/15 – 12:25
I was amused to see the three comments on the ‘DP question’ raised above because, on another forum site I visit, there has been a debate on this same subject in the past year that reached what must be a record number of postings! www.sct61.org.uk/zzvmp10ga
David Slater
01/12/15 – 06:07
The SCT61 site does indeed have a good number of comments, as David says, and almost as many points of view. The PSV used to be classed as HACKNEY on the tax disc, then it was BUS – I’m sure Mr & Mrs Smith would have been horrified to read that on their extended tour coach they were actually going by bus! Some years ago, Southampton Citybus had a pair of what in a single decker might be regarded as DPs, but these were double deck buses, available for private hire. (Nigel Frampton may remember the E…HRV vehicles) On one occasion, I overheard comments about what a pity it was that, going along the M1, we couldn’t match the speed of “all these other coaches”. Of course not, we were on a bus, then limited to 50mph while a coach was allowed 60. One morning, one of my travelling companions commented “Oh, good! A comfy bus this morning!” as one of these approached.
Pete Davies
01/12/15 – 09:58
Pete, there are no speed limit distinctions between ‘buses’ and ‘coaches’. Both were passenger service vehicles, now called passenger carrying vehicles. Buses intended for normal stop/start duties would have been geared accordingly, and this would have been reflected in the top speed. Some manufacturers, notably Dennis and Bristol, were early users of five speed gearboxes which gave their products a livelier performance on the road.
Roger Cox
01/12/15 – 11:41
Thank you for that nugget, Roger. I thought I had read somewhere that there WAS (even if there isn’t now) a distinction on speed limits. Perhaps it’s another example of the fugiting Mr Tempus!
Pete Davies
03/12/15 – 10:59
Speaking, buses and coaches were classified as PSV – public service vehicles, not passenger service vehicles. I know – I used to handle the PSV licensing in London. It was a strange description, more suited to dustbin lorries.
David Wragg
03/12/15 – 10:59
I understand that a bus or coach under 12 metres long, capable of travelling at more than 60 mph and built before 1988 does not require to be fitted with a speed limiter and thus, if capable, can travel at more than 60 mph on a motorway.
Stephen Bloomfield
03/12/15 – 11:00
Pete – I certainly do remember the Southampton Olympian DPs. I think the E-HRVs stayed at Southampton for a full working life, and I believe that one (at least) still exists. There were a couple of earlier ones as well, but they were sold to Bullock of Cheadle after only a few years, along with 4 Dominator buses (the C-BBP registered vehicles). Although I contributed to that discussion on SCT’61 about the DP classification, I’m not sure I would recommend it to anyone as light reading! I think the point to remember is that the DP classification is a convenience for the benefit of enthusiasts, and dates from an era when documentation was virtually all on printed paper and photos were much less widely available. It was intended to distinguish vehicles which had physical features of both buses and coaches, rather than those which were purely buses or purely coaches. For example, bus shell bodies with coach seats, or coaches with bus seats. It has nothing to do with the actual use to which the vehicle is put; it needs to be capable of being determined based on simple observation; and it needs to be consistent for all vehicles regardless of operator. Operators tend to have their own codes, which suit their purposes, but differ, such that largely identical vehicles are classified differently by different operators. Of course, once you have a reasonably clear photograph of the vehicle (or you can see it in the metal), then the code becomes academic – you can see what shape of bodywork it has, and generally get a good idea of the type of seats. Given the almost infinite variety of combinations that have been built over the years, it is inevitable that there will be one or two anomalies when using a simple coding system of that nature, but that does not invalidate the code itself.
Nigel Frampton
03/12/15 – 11:01
Enthusiasts generally use the PSV Circle definition of DP, which is a bus shell with coach seats, or, very occasionally, a coach shell with bus seats. Operators often had their own definitions, which sometimes had more to do with what they wanted to do with the vehicle than its physical properties. It isn’t unusual to find a vehicle where the PSV Circle code is different from the operator’s. I’m surprised that Don says Eastern Scottish classed this vehicle as a coach, because it was new as ZB115, and in the SCT61 discussion it was stated that Z meant dual-purpose.
Peter Williamson
04/12/15 – 06:06
In Eastern Scottish fleet numbers shown on single deck vehicles were prefixed by a letter or letters. A vehicle with only one letter before the fleet number denoted the vehicle type and also that is classified it as a bus. However the additional letters were as follows: C Citylink coach X Toilet fitted coach.Used on vehicles that operated on the services between Edinburgh and London. Y non toilet fitted coach, often without any bulkhead behind the driver. Also not capable of being OPO operated. In many instances had the same type of seat fitted as those vehicles classed as a coach. Z Dual purpose vehicle. In other SBG companies a 49 seat Y type with high backed seats would be classed as a coach.
Stephen Bloomfield
04/12/15 – 06:07
Yes, David, you’re right. Public Service Vehicles. A slip of the mind and fingers. I acted as advocate for LCBS in the Traffic Courts for more than ten years, so senility is clearly upon me.
Roger Cox
04/12/15 – 06:08
Thank you, gents, for your further thoughts on what is or is not a DP . . .
Pete Davies
11/12/15 – 06:57
Highland tended to put all the OPO-capable coaches it got second-hand (like this one) into the Poppy Red and Peacock Blue bus livery; even toilet-fitted Bristol RELHs.
Stephen Allcroft
04/06/16 – 06:36
It might be correct that a coach earlier than a certain date, and with certain specification may not need to be fitted with a speed limiter but it is certainly not correct that it can travel at more than 60 mph. The legislation regarding speed limits and speed limiters is completely separate although the latter may have been introduced to facilitate the former. The 60mph rule was introduced before speed limiters became necessary.
Malcolm Hirst
05/06/16 – 07:14
A bus or coach under 12m long is theoretically allowed 70mph on motorways (but only 60 on dual carriageways and 50 on single carriageways) irrespective of when it was built. The government web-page does point out that the (compulsory) speed limiter may prevent a vehicle from reaching the permissible speed limit. See https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
Stephen Ford
07/08/20 – 06:51
EWS 115D was one of two vehicles from this batch allocated to Berwick depot for use on the long Edinburgh – Berwick – Newcastle 505/506 services. The other was EWS 114D which depot staff at Berwick always viewed as the more reliable of the two. Nontheless these two vehicles gave sterling service in their Eastern Scottish days. It was only when United, with whom the 505/6 were jointly operated, started using downgraded Bristol RE coaches displaced from their London service that United operated anything comparable!
Barton Transport 1960 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Alexander C41F
The independent Barton company became very satisfied customers of the AEC Reliance, taking its first one early in 1955. In subsequent years many more entered service, Alexander and Plaxton bodywork being favoured. Here is one of a batch of five 2MU3RV coaches with Alexander C41F bodywork delivered in May/June 1960. 839 EVO is seen in the summer of 1961 in London on Elizabeth Bridge, which straddles the main Southern railway line just south of Victoria Station. The present day transformation of the somewhat neglected building immediately behind the coach, notwithstanding the fact that it sits directly alongside a cutting carrying trains into the second busiest railway terminal in Britain (Waterloo is No.1) is evidence of the “gentrification” of much of our capital city – (Oh for the old days).
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
02/12/16 – 07:17
This type of Alexander body was widely used by Scottish companies, and were a common sight in the likes of Carlisle ‘Western’ and Newcastle ‘SMT’, but unlike the later ‘Y’ types, they weren’t embraced by many operators south of the border. That said, they weren’t a million miles away from the Park Royal bodies of the time. Was there a link?
Ronnie Hoye
02/12/16 – 16:03
Barton also had a number of Leyland Tiger Cubs with this style of body. I think they were designated dual-purpose, but it was rather stretching the meaning of the term. The seating standard was at the extreme “bus” end of DP. They were used quite a lot on the 15 Ilkeston – Long Eaton – Sawley route. The Reliances were very much more coach style. I remember seeing them on the Nottingham – Warsaw service that ran for a few years in the 1960s. Strangely (most of?) the Reliance “coaches” had route number/destination indicators above the rear windows, whereas none of the Tiger Cub “DP/buses” had them.
Stephen Ford
02/12/16 – 16:49
Ronnie, The PRV link with this body was indirect in that both this and the PRV ‘Royalist’ coach on Reliance were inspired by alloy-framed ECW and Scottish Aviation bodies of a couple years earlier. This style was first fitted to four pre-production Tiger Cub Coaches in late 1952. The first Royalist was on a Reliance for Birch Brothers in 1954. Also in 1954 SOL and Alexander took PRV bodied AEC Monocoaches and from 1955-57 had Monocoaches Reliances and Tiger Cubs with Alexander bodies to the same outline, after that they took a body with this frontal treatment but a straight waist. Meanwhile Barton and Western SMT took this style until 1960. PRV and Alexander both moved from Aluminium to Steel frames for their bodies at the turn of the decade to get BET orders, both built 30ft bodies to BET outline, and Alexander also combined this front with 31ft bodies for the Alexander companies and North Western in 1961 and 36ft Leopards in 1962 for North Western.
Stephen Allcroft
03/12/16 – 07:01
I took a rear end photo of a 1961 Barton Plaxton Panorama coach at Chilwell in September that had a destination box like Stephen F mentions. www.ipernity.com
David Slater
11/05/17 – 06:42
Roger, do you know what would become of the five Alexander bodied Reliances? Were any of them ever sold to Ireland?
Bill Headley
11/05/17 – 19:15
I am sorry, Bill, but I have not been able to ascertain the later lives of these Alexander bodied Reliances, but OBP has some remarkably informed contributors, so hopefully some information will turn up.
Roger Cox
12/05/17 – 06:55
Stephen (Ford) – I’m intrigued to know more about the Nottingham to Warsaw service, which you say operated for a time in the 60’s! That, if true, might be more useful today!
David J Smith
12/05/17 – 10:41
Think you will find Midlands-Warsaw services are running regularly just operated by Polish operators.
Roger Burdett
13/05/17 – 07:16
Actually Roger my sense of humour was asserting itself there and I was being flippant. I think Stephen’s spellchecker had run ahead of him, as they do, way when possibly he meant the Nottingham to WORKSOP service, unless it was really true in the 1960’s, can’t see why though………!
David J Smith
13/05/17 – 07:17
I think that Polish-operated services run in and out of many UK towns and cities nowadays. There is a weekly one to/from Gloucester to Warsaw and I’ve come across several Brits who’ve used the service for a break there. These services seem to be run by the large Polish coach company, Sindbad
Chris Hebbron
13/05/17 – 07:36
Hello David, I found this snippet from “Commercial Motor” dates 12 April 1963 : “Nottingham-Warsaw Bus Service Ends An express bus service from Nottingham to Warsaw has been discontinued because so few Poles can afford the £28 return fare to their homeland. The single-decker bus made the 2,000 mile round trip for the first time last August. The journey took two days from Nottingham to Harwich, through Holland and Germany to Warsaw. But now Barton Transport Ltd., Chilwell, Notts, says the demand for the tickets is not sufficient to make the service Pay. Mr. Carl Barton, a director and traffic manager, said: “The Polish people showed great interest – Until it came to booking seats”.
Stephen Ford
13/05/17 – 09:53
Stephen, Re the Nottingham to Warsaw service of 1963. That’s brilliant of you to reply and come up with the goods. There’s nothing new under the sun is there? Who would have thought 50 years ago that services from many UK cities to Poland would be a commonplace thing in the Noughties!
David J Smith
13/05/17 – 16:00
There was a fair concentration of Poles in and around Nottingham (including at least one who was a conductor and, I believe, later an inspector with Bartons.) Many were former airmen who came over during the war to continue the fight. I suspect that the difficulty was not so much the £28 return fare as all the other add-ons and hassle. A return transit visa for East Germany was around another £5, and I’m not sure how welcome “pre-war Poles” were by the authorities in post-war Communist Poland. And no, I’m pretty sure Barton didn’t have Worksop on their destination blinds. Nottingham – Worksop was a long-standing Trent (80)/East Midland (37) joint route, and any such ideas from Barton would have been taken to a Traffic Commissioners’ hearing and strangled at birth!
Stephen Ford
14/05/17 – 07:30
The Alexander body single deckers and others of the 1960s at Bartons were often fitted with secondhand recovered high back coach seats when the bus was new then changed to second hand but recovered service bus seats after about 2 years, Later this was stopped,,the Alexander bodys were very sound and did not look dated ,, I started in 1961 and worked there until the awfull trent takeover of 89,most of my time there was running repairs and breakdowns/recovery and sometimes emergency PSV driving and also overtime private hire and service bus driving ,,trent engeneering director seen me with my drivers uniform on and said you won’t be driving under trent,I said I know thankfully you made me redundant,
Mr Anon
14/05/17 – 07:30
According to Alan Oxley’s history of Barton (part 3), the first (and only) round trip of service X60 (Nottingham – Warsaw) left Nottingham on Sunday 5 August 1962, at 1pm, taking as Stephen says, two days to reach Warsaw. It returned the following Saturday, arriving back in Nottingham on the Monday.I understand prolonged delays at Eastern Bloc countries were a significant factor in the service not running again, it was the time of the Cold War and the Cuban missile crisis after all. Two newly delivered Yeates bodied Reliances were used,49 seater 949 (949 MRR) from Nottingham to Harwich, and 945(945 MRR) from the Hook of Holland to Warsaw. 945 had been reduced to a 36 seater fitted with reclining seats, a toilet compartment and electric razor sockets (!). I can confirm 949 was used on the English leg, as I was at Huntingdon St to see it off – somewhere I have a photo of it prior to departure. Shortly after the round trip, 945 was reseated and the toilet removed. Every time I see a Sinbad coach in Nottingham, it reminds me of this Barton innovation.
In reply to Bill Headley’s query above, according to the Circle fleet histories of Barton, none of this batch went to Ireland; however, there was a similar batch which entered service in 1959, 808-13(808-13CAL).Of these, 809 is given to Dodd, (dealer) Dromara 5/72, later to Lafferty, Glengad 4/73 and to unidentified farmer, Togher by 5/79. 811 is given to Dodds (dealer) Dromara 5/72, nothing further recorded.
Bob Gell
04/10/17 – 07:13
Thanks for this information Bob. I suspect the vehicle was destroyed in the summer of 1972 in the Derrybeg Estate, Newry – which is not very far away from Dromara. It was possibly owned by the local GAA and 811 CAL would seem to fit the frame as being the vehicle shown.
Bill Headley
09/09/18 – 06:15
The driver on Loline 861 (X42) was Harry Bell his wife was a conductor operating from Chilwell garage. I drove the last Switzerland tour I think it was in 1978 But not sure ?
Paul Annison
12/09/18 – 05:38
As well as the airmen there were a large number of ex-miners from Poland from all 3 armed services who settled in the UK, many employed in the mines here. As an ex-paperboy I remember delivering several copies of the “Polish Daily ( including Soldiers Daily)” on my paper round and one of my friends was the son of a Polish soldier, who was married to a Russian lady who at one time was in Ravensbruck concentration camp. I thought it all very exotic ( especially his rather delightful elder sister whom I worshipped from afar…..). I think the main problem visiting was not financial. The ex-military types were very unwelcome, and I think the authorities were somewhat afraid of contamination, particularly in the aftermath of the Hungarian uprising. There might have been some reluctance too in view of a fear of retaliation for being resident on the wrong side of the iron curtain.
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Alexander H37/28R
This photo was taken just after lunch but as you can see this Regent V has the interior lights on, what a miserable day that was. I know this is not a very good shot but it is worth posting due to the fact that most Alexander bodied Regent Vs were delivered north of the border with the majority of them being to Glasgow Corporation. I think this vehicle one of a batch of 20 delivered to the Sheffield A fleet were the only ones delivered new to an English operator, if I am incorrect I am sure someone will let me know.
Sheffield like quite a few municipalities had separate fleets wholly or jointly owned within the overall operation.
Sheffield had three fleets A, B and C and were owned as follows.
A fleet Corporation owned (fleet numbers 1-999 in 1965)
B fleet Jointly owned by the Corporation and British Railways (fleet numbers 1251-1400 in 1965)
C fleet British Railways owned (fleet numbers 1150-1250 in 1965)
If you want to know the full specification for the Regent V 2D3RA you can look it up under the Regent V abbreviations here.
The only operator of this style of Alexander outside Scotland to predate them was Cardiff – definitely not England.
861 – 880 were the precursors of many Alexander bodies for STD, SYPTE and then Mainline. They looked good, and being AECs were good and sounded good. For some reason, the numbers didn’t add up. The Weymann and Roe 2D3RAs were all H39/30R(D – Roe) with bags of leg room. The Alexanders were H37/32R and whilst lack of legroom downstairs was understandable, what wasn’t was the distinct lack of room with fewer seats upstairs.
I have an unsubstantiated theory about the design – can anyone confirm, or squash it? Many 1940/50s Alexander deckers were built on Weymann (pre Orion) frames before this design emerged. Is it too fanciful to suggest that it was based on the same design and frames as the Rochdale Regent Vs and Sheffield Regent IIIs and Titan PD2s? [Curved domes and side windows?]
This Regent is on route 92 Manor Park – very close to the City Centre and would normally have had City on the blind. The photograph looks as if it was taken very close to the new Supertram depot and Park and Ride site which was not a regular haunt for these Regents. When new they could be seen on the 95 and 75 tram replacement routes and also drifted onto 60 and 38. Was this taken late in its life? The Alexanders and Roes were divided between Leadmill and East Bank garages, the Weymanns were all, I think, at East Bank.
874 was immaculately restored some years ago and is a regular on the northern rally circuit. But (trivia time), why did the last one (880) have a different type and style of rear number plate? I don’t know! If you know please leave a comment.
David Oldfield
02/03/11
Enjoyed the posting and the comment from David Oldfield with respect to the Alexander bodied Regent V’s. I must confess to liking the Weymanns a bit more, but the Scottish bodies certainly stood out with that rounded dome. When still relatively new, I remember these Alexanders often making a Saturday appearance on the 34 Petre Street – Graves Park, along with some of the Weymann ones, running from East Bank, and they looked even more unusual on there, alongside the 1947 vintage Weymann bodied Regent III’s of the 558-572 batch that were still the mainstay of this service at the time. In fact two 30 footers arriving at Reform Chapel within minutes of each other was apt to cause a bit of a problem, as there wasn’t a lot of room to spare at the bus stop alongside the chapel opposite the chip shop! I think the reason for 880 having a different rear end, with the registration plate in the standard position at the offside corner was that it had a rear end collision at some point, and emerged from Queens Road after repair in the altered state, thus making it unique in the batch. When new, a colleague informs me that all the Alexanders initially went to Bramall Lane for the 33 and the 75 tram replacement routes, with the 26 Weymanns being split between Bramall Lane and Leadmill Road. Noteworthy on the Alexanders was the first offside window behind the cab being a hinged emergency escape window, something which of course the Weymanns didn’t have. At least three of those superb Roe bodied ones were at Townhead Street when new, for use on the 85 to Retford, and also on the Dinnington services, where their platform doors were no doubt very well received, especially in the cold weather. The story has it that the Roe bodies initially lacked a centre stanchion on the platform, these being fitted sometime later after an unfortunately fatal accident which was attributed to the lack of a grab pole. More trivia!
Dave Careless
03/03/11 – 08:53
Dave. Thanks for filling in the allocation details. Townhead Street and Branhall Lane were operational when I was very young but had closed by the time I became really interested. I had forgotten, but you are absolutely right in every respect about the Roe centre stanchion and the fatality.
David Oldfield
04/03/11 – 07:39
Thanks David, I’m pleased you found that of interest. Those Roe bodied Regent V’s were wonderful machines, I always felt they looked a lot more elegant when they were new, with the standard Roe version of the Sheffield livery, with the blue window surrounds, and the classy bodybuilders gold transfer on the waistband, at the side of the cab and just forward of the entrance, very smart indeed. And the styling of that Roe emergency window simply couldn’t be beat! After Chaceley T. Humpidge took over as General Manager in 1961, and did away with the livery variations, including the grey roof after first overhaul (not that any of 1325-1349 ever saw this application), the Roes never looked quite as smart in the standard cream with blue bands, but that’s merely a personal preference. It’s a pity that you missed Townhead Street in its heyday, as that was quite something to see, with the trams downstairs in the basement and the buses up above, and a parking area along the side where half-cab single deckers seemed to invariably sit. Mind you, passing Greenland Road or Herries Road late at night, with the lights blazing and the garage and forecourt stuffed full of immaculate cream and blue buses, was equally as breath taking if you were an enthusiast! Quite often my father would indulge me and pull the car over for a few minutes so I could savour the atmosphere and jot down a few numbers; happy days.
Dave Careless
04/03/11 – 17:19
Happy days indeed, Dave. Barbie just doesn’t do it. Nor does red, white and blue – but at least Mr Souter does know how to run a bus company even if Dennis Dust Carts have as much charisma as a wet weekend in….. (fill your own space – I don’t want to upset friends on this site!) If you read any other posts, you’ll know my thing is AEC, Roe and Burlingham – so 1325-49 are my all time favourites, followed by the nine 1952 Regent IIIs. [I too preferred the Weymanns over the Alexanders.] Strangely enough, my favourite PD2s were the 1952 all Leylands which eventually gained Roe style livery after being delivered in green. I believe they were the only brand new green deliveries – or were the 1952 Regent/Roe rebuilds also delivered in green?
David Oldfield
06/03/11 – 08:06
You’ve got my vote there, David; funnily enough, those twelve OWB registered PD2’s were far and away my favourite Sheffield Titans also, they somehow looked a cut above the Faringtons, I think it was those push-out vents in the upstairs front windows that gave them the edge! Before I came to Canada in the late fifties, I made a regular weekly excursion with my mother from Rotherham to the grandmother’s in the east end of Sheffield, accomplished by bus and tram, a 69 from Rotherham to Attercliffe, and a tram from the corner of Newhall Road to Upwell Street, and reverse. In those days, the 69 offering was either a Sheffield PD2 or a Rotherham Crossley, either of which was guaranteed to provide a memorable journey, but if it happened to be one of the OWB’s that turned up, then that was definitely a bonus. The unmistakeable sound and steady beat of that Leyland engine is such a strong recollection that I can almost hear it now as I sit typing in Canada fifty plus years later. The world seemed to be a different place then, and I also travelled on the bus unaccompanied a lot at an age where it would be deemed unthinkable to allow children to do so today. I once travelled to Sheffield upstairs on a Rotherham Crossley that was packed with Sheffield Wednesday supporters heading to an evening match, and the air upstairs was blue with cigarette smoke and strong language, to the extent that I was enjoying it so much that instead of alighting at Newhall Road as I was supposed to, stayed on into the Wicker and had to catch another bus back to the east end. I can still see and hear that Crossley now, pulling away up the Wicker towards the terminus at Waingate, well down on its springs at the back with the nearly full load and trailing a plume of exhaust smoke behind it into the city centre. Those weekly outings on the 69 were sorely missed when they eventually came to an end. Of course, one of the OWB’s, 666, lived on as gritter/towing tender G56 for many years, and was a regular sight at one time, struggling back to East Bank with yet another broken down Atlantean hanging off its back. I’m not sure how, but even with its upper deck and most of the back end missing, it still managed to look more elegant than half the modern things it was sent out to rescue!! Not quite sure just when and where those Roe rebodied FWA-Regents got their green paint applied David, that one needs a fair bit of research. Good question though.
Dave Careless
06/03/11 – 09:06
Strange. An exile in Surrey corresponding with an exile in Canada. Good this internet, eh? I first went solo, on a bus, aged ten. From Greenhill to Woodseats on an SWE Regent III – and similar back – on an errand for my father. Mission accomplished, my second solo was to town and back on the same afternoon on two similar vehicles. After that, there was no going back! My experience of the 6** PD2s was mostly on the 93 and occasionally the 32 to visit Grandparents. They never seemed to be on the 23 when I visited the other Gps.
David Oldfield
09/03/11 – 06:05
Those SWE-Regents were cracking machines, superb looking, with their chromium wheel nut rings, which they seemed to keep right to the end, and the sound they made, with that straight-through exhaust, was quite something. What one wouldn’t give for a run from Greenhill to Woodseats and back on one of them today. Even my father, who wasn’t into buses at all, was heard to remark ” …. those Sheffield buses have a wonderful bark to them!” I still have a slide I persuaded him to take one day at Reform Chapel, in the east end, of SWE 281 waiting patiently for the crew to return from the nearby cafe before setting off for Hollythorpe Rise. Could that really have been 49 years ago??!!
Dave Careless
10/03/12 – 07:42
Talking of the terminus at Reform Chapel, we had a choice of two routes to centre at that time, the 34 Petre St to Graves Park or the 17 Sheffield Lane Top to Millhouses Park which had been recently been a tram service, being only about eight or nine when the trams ran, I wish I had been a little older so I would have had more interest in the trams, as it was my brother and I loved to stand at the front of the bus looking out over the engine compartment, which we considered the best view out of the bus, how disappointed we were when the Atlanteans were introduced and lost this vantage point! The uses on the 17 route were usually Leyland PD3’s as I found out later in life, as it sped down Attercliffe Road, we peered at the square speedometer to see if the bus would get up to or even break the 40 mph barrier, my fathers car at that time was a two cylinder Transit sized Jowett Bradford van which struggled to get over 30 mph downhill with wind behind us! Great days which the children of today will never know the adventure of bus travel, the smell, the noise and the vibration, more’s the pity.
David T
10/03/12 – 15:58
It’s hard to believe that an OWB was used as a towing tender, with something like a mere 36bhp on hand! That’s really pushing such a willing workhorse to near cruelty!
Chris Hebbron
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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/03/12 – 07:47
With great respect David T I had to chuckle at the promotion of the Jowett Bradford van to “Transit” size – I think that such a colossal vehicle would have brought the willing little power unit to its knees, but the Bradford was a wonderful little van of around “Escort” size. In 1960 there was in Ilkley a delightful very elderly posh lady who used the most decrepit of all Bradford vans – both front wings were literally almost falling off and several volunteers were regularly needed to push start the van on the Ilkley car park. Well Mrs. S***** used to revel in telling us of her exploits and narrow escapes with a mischievous twinkle in her weary old eyes. My favourite (and one of her best) was when she was on the A59 in Preston heading for Blackpool – descending a hill towards the huge Tulketh cotton mill she encountered a bobby on cross roads point duty with hand raised – shooting past him she eventually rolled to a stop to find the PC chasing after her, notebook and pencil at the ready. “Have you no brakes on this vehicle” demanded The Law – leaving him perplexed as she set off Mrs. S***** replied “Of course I have officer – they simply failed to function !!”
Chris Youhill
11/03/12 – 07:50
I almost fell for that one Chris H!!
Chris Barker
11/03/12 – 08:56
Forgive me for being off topic but Chris Y’s tale of that Jowett Bradford van brought back old memories of one owned by Mr Mc.Maughan a local painter and decorator who was a bit of a carefree old sort and used to wipe his brushes out on the side of his van! Originally a mid fawn colour, it became covered in hundreds of multicoloured stripes.. it didn’t go any faster though..30 mph was a dream! Mentioning paint… when we lived in Conway Road, Brislington, Bristol, our neighbour Bert Staddon was an engineer at Bristol Commercial Vehicles and once hit on the strange idea of painting the stonework of his house in BCV silver chassis paint. That was in 1958 and to this day, it is still clearly evident but must have puzzled many people over the years..good stuff though! Again..total apologies for this thread drift.
Richard Leaman
11/03/12 – 15:48
As a youngster I made regular Sunday trips to Sheffield to see relatives. We travelled from Leeds to Sheffield Midland station, we then walked across the city to the terminus of the sixty nine to Rotherham. The buses seen were always of interest particularly the early Atlanteans which were unheard of in Leeds. Sheffield’s buses always seemed very different to those in Leeds Usually our steed was a Leyland Titan which always had a fair turn of speed they had string bell pulls which again were unknown in Leeds as was the strap placed across the platform when the bus was full. Prior to nineteen sixty if we were upstairs on the bus I got a glimpse of Tinsley tram depot with many cars resting from their labour, strangely I don’t recall ever seeing a Sheffield car actually running. It all seems very different to today were only the destinations tell you that you are in a different place
Chris Hough
11/03/12 – 19:33
Chris Y – Lovely tale about the Bradford. I have a friend who worked for Brooke Bond and they trundled around the country stocking up shops with Lever Bros/Unilever products. They were allocated Trojan vans, some of the earlier ones still having chain drive! They were gutless and, as a new employee, you covered staff who were on holiday or sick. His first job was in the South Wales Valleys and he got stuck a couple of times on the hills and had to be assisted to the top of hills. He later found that the normal driver had devised a fixed route, which had gentler rises and steeper falls, the only way he could do the rounds! Later models had Perkins diesel engines,, which had a little more power.
Chris Hebbron
11/03/12 – 20:13
The mention of Trojan Vans reminds me that Edinburgh Corporation Passenger Department had a good number as service vans.
W Alexander & Sons (Midland) Ltd 1951 AEC Regent III 09612E Alexander L27/26R
Although Alexanders purchased significant numbers of Regals and Reliances, they only purchased one batch of 20 double deck buses from AEC, all of which joined the Midland fleet when the company split into three. As with virtually all the double deckers bought new by Alexanders post war, it has an own-build lowbridge body, and this batch was among the first to carry the new style with a rounded dome compared with the slightly angular earlier style based on the Leyland design. MRC8 is seen here parked up at Stirling Bus Station on 4 November 1969, and carries a Bannockburn depot plate. It also displays the then relatively new style of “Midland” fleetname, replacing the traditional Alexander style. The traditional Alexander smartness belies 18 years of service; by this stage many of its fellows had already been withdrawn. The other feature of this bus is that it represents “A is for . . .” for chassis, body and operator, and therefore represents a fitting introduction to a presentation I am giving at the Leicester Transport Historical Trust meeting in Leicester on Saturday 11th April 2015. This is entitled Alphabet Soup, featuring British buses from A to Z in the late 60s/early 70s. Within the alphabet, the main emphasis will be on chassis and body manufacturers, with operator names filling in the gaps, and I shall be highlighting as far as possible unusual rather than standard products. LTHT meetings are held at the New Walk Museum in Leicester, starting at 10 a.m. www.ltht.org.uk/monthly%20meetings.htm
Photograph and Copy contributed by Alan Murray-Rust
10/04/17 – 06:42
The ‘Midland’ (BMMO-style) fleetname is actually the third version to be used after the Alexander company split. The first was an underlined scroll similar to that used originally by Fife and Northern. They then reverted to the traditional Alexander style, but emphasising MidlanD as the middle line rather than AlexandeR. These 20 chassis were diverted from a Scottish Omnibuses order – recompense for the rubbish transferred from SO with the Dundee area perhaps?
Scottish Motor Traction 1952 AEC Regal IV 9821E Alexander C30F
SMT, who later became Eastern Scottish, were a regular sight in Newcastle, they shared several routes into Scotland with United, and this one is discharging its passengers at the drop off point in the Haymarket Bus Station. There were three different routes to Edinburgh, and two to Glasgow. Morning departures on the Edinburgh routes were United vehicles, with SMT covering the afternoons, and vice versa from the other end, and I think it was the same for the more direct route to Glasgow. However, one of the Glasgow routes was a very long drawn out affair, with a running time of over seven hours. If memory serves, the vehicles met a point which was roughly half way where a refreshment stop was taken, the crews would then swap vehicles and return to their start point, but the vehicles would carry on and return the following day. It was also the case that in the event of a breakdown, the other company would provide a replacement, so presumably an arrangement existed with the insurance which allowed the other companies crews to man the vehicles. They were in abundance in Scotland, but this type of Alexander body never caught on south of the border to the same extent as the later ‘Y’ types, although North Western did have a few. Personally, I thought they were not a million miles away from the Park Royal body of the period.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
20/03/14 – 07:12
Although they eventually developed their own style, Alexanders did set out building clones – often under subcontract – of other companies’ designs (notably Leyland and Weymann). They did a PRV/Monocoach copy but I don’t know whether these Regal IVs were on PRV frames. In the recent Y type book it was pointed out that this style of flat windscreen lasted (on AL deckers) until the ’80s. The North Western Leopards – and the Reliances which preceded them were not strictly to this design at all. They were a standard BET design structure with this style windscreen grafted on to the front.[There were, I believe, others too – as well as “bog standard” BET bodies without a whiff of Alexander about the style.]
David Oldfield
20/03/14 – 17:40
Pseudo Willowbrook, perhaps?
Pete Davies
20/03/14 – 17:41
On the point of driver change over on the “long” Glasgow route, I have a feeling that the same thing happened at Penrith on the Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh services. Something similar happened on the X2/X60 group of interconnected routes: (Great Yarmouth)/ Nottingham/ Manchester/ Blackpool).
David Oldfield
22/03/14 – 08:30
On the subject of driver changes en-route when I became an express services driver at Southdown’s Eastbourne depot in 1970, a journey from Margate to Bournemouth on the South Coast Express service that passed through Eastbourne around midday with an East Kent driver who took his meal break there. The coach either an East Kent Reliance/Park Royal or a Royal Blue Bristol RE/ECW was then taken to Brighton by one of our drivers who handed it over to a Royal Blue driver who had just taken his meal break who then took it on to Bournemouth. The Eastbourne driver then took over the coach brought in by the Royal Blue driver which he then took back to Eastbourne to hand over to the East Kent driver after his meal break to take back to Margate thus all three drivers drove a coach from both East Kent and Royal Blue. This experience led me to prefer the Reliance over the RE and nothing ever persuaded me otherwise especially when accessing the underfloor lockers of the RE on a wet day
Diesel Dave
25/03/14 – 10:14
This is Prudhoe Place just south of the Haymarket Bus Station in Newcastle. The building in the background was a cinema (and if we could so what film was being advertised we could probably date the photo). Just to the right of the camera was the famous Mobile Canteen MC2 (and was there ever an MC1?). Buses that were going to lay over usually dropped-off passengers here and then parked on the other side of the stand, rear-end inwards. This was also the pick-up point for Tynemouth 5 and United 8 during the afternoon peak period until all New Coast Road buses moved to St Mary’s Place in the late 1960s. The Edinburgh routes via Otterburn (9 later 508) and Wooler (15 later 510) were irregular. There was an Edinburgh SMT bus that left Edinburgh at about 09.00 for Newcastle via Otterburn and then returned via Wooler mid-afternoon. There was also an Edinburgh SMT bus that left Edinburgh at about 10.30 for Newcastle via Wooler and returned at 16.45 via Otterburn. Edinburgh crews worked both buses right through. There were only a couple of 5 minute stops en route. The Edinburgh route via Berwick (12 later 505/6) was hourly south of Berwick and more or less hourly north of Berwick. There were only a couple of 5 minute stops en route. As far as I know United buses worked through to Edinburgh but usually had SMT crews north of Berwick. SMT buses worked through to Newcastle but usually had United crews south of Berwick. However some of the scheduling was quite complex: buses might meet and swap crews at Niddrie Cross Roads, just outside Edinburgh, to get the crew back to Berwick before the end of service. The Glasgow route (14 later 515) was once a day in winter and twice a day in summer. It was very slow and had a 45 minute stop at Galashiels. The buses worked right through but met at Galashiels where the crews swapped over. The United crew was, latterly, from Whitley Bay. There were also summer Saturday express journeys, that took about 5 hours, on which the crews worked right through, and came back the same day. At Glasgow holiday period there were often lots of duplicates and crews from a variety of depots north and south of the border. Scotland definitely had its own culture, which included labels on bus windscreens, as shown in this photo. Why it was normal, north of the border, to use labels to show the route and destination I never could work out. Were there too many destinations and route variations at each depot to include on one blind?
Paul Robson
25/03/14 – 15:48
Paul Robson makes mention of paper stickers on the windscreen for the service/destination. Surely this is preferable to showing ‘SERVICE’ or ‘DUPLICATE’ as mentioned in another thread which is on the go at the minute. Good on yer Scottish Bus Group.
Stephen Howarth
27/03/14 – 06:53
At the old National Express/Shamrock and Rambler Coach Station (77 Holdenhurst Road) the toilets were situated at the rear of the booking hall. The passageway had a huge rack (like a postal sorting rack for letters) that held yellow paper destination labels for literally all the served destinations in the South of England together with such labels as “On Hire To”. I remember seeing one London label being held up (cheekily) by a hitchhiker on the Ringwood Sour Road.
David R
11/02/15 – 06:03
Newcastle services were run by SMT until 1964 under service nos 230, 231, (Berwick), 270 (Jedburgh) and 273 (Kelso) with other nos for services on these routes purely North of the Border. Glasgow – Newcastle/Whitley Bay was 252. Glasgow Scarborough was also a joint service on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays with a night service from Glasgow on a Friday, returning North on Saturday night.
Mr Anon
17/12/15 – 17:00
I really must most strongly disagree with Alexander “having started building clones.” they built their first coachwork in 1921 a number of years before Park Royal were even formed; and while they were happy to build to another coachbuilder’s outline when required (a rather awful Park Royal look for SBG from 1955-7 or a rather old-fashioned Weymann outline for Glasgow in 1953-5) they built to their own too, and the Eastern Regal IV is entirely a product of Drip Road Stirling. I’d contend the bus in the following link is somewhat more imaginative and indeed stylish than any mid-1930’s product of NW10. www.flickr.com/photos/ The use of of the word clone in relation to Leyland bodies implies they were building to a Leyland outline to win custom; in fact they built utilities and postwar double decks to Leyland outline because Leyland body production had been halted by the government because Leyland was needed to make tanks; Alexander were in fact operating with Leyland’s blessing and full co-operation. Leyland chose three bodybuilders for prototype Tiger Cubs, they were MCW, Saunders-Roe and Alexander, and when the coach version of the Tiger Cub was planned all of the Leyland prototypes including the one that lapped MIRA at 80mph were bodied by Alexander. The bus prototype worked for Starks of Dunbar and then Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway, still in service with the latter in 1975, not bad for a lightweight. Alexander designs are I would contend more often copied than Alexander copied other designs.
Stephen Allcroft
19/12/15 – 06:59
Two further corrections: Contrary to David Oldfield the angled windscreen was available on R type double-deckers as late as 1999; secondly I got the start date of Alexander’s coachbuilding (initially at Camelon) a year early in the previous post, still Alexander were building bus and coach bodies in 1922 and Hall, Lewis only started in North West London two years later. Park Royal Vehicles was formed after Hall, Lewis’s liquidation by their major creditor in 1930; eight years after Alexander started. Incidentally the Lewis family also owned Northern Counties Motor and Engineering Company Ltd. PRV didn’t do an Alexander A-type copy but there were quite a few from Roe, which were done using PRV frames, and it Alexander’s design of double curvature windscreen was used on a number of otherwise standard Park Royal and Roe products. Northern Counties of course copied the Panoramic J type for Yorkshire Traction.
W Alexander & Sons (Northern) 1951 AEC Regal III 6821A Alexander C35F
Here is a view of DMS130. This AEC Regal III 6821A was new to W Alexander & Sons in 1951, with an Alexander C35F body as A104. When the company split, she passed to the Northern section as NA 104. She is seen in this guise in the yard of the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton in May 1977. The then preservationists lived in nearby Bishops Waltham.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
01/09/13 – 14:13
The bus is still preserved, and there are many photos on my website at www.vintagebus.org
John Braga
10/04/17 – 06:38
This is one of six chassis ordered by James Sutherland of Peterhead immediately before their takeover by Alexanders in 1950. They were due to have Duple bodies similar to Sutherland’s six recently delivered Leyland PS1s which became Alexander PA197-202. However they were put to the back of the queue at Alexanders Coachbuilders and instead received some of their last halfcab bodies, 8ft wide on a 7ft 6in chassis, in a style also fitted to Alexanders 20 OPS2s. Duple was upset by this, so a number of Alexander pre-war Leylands were rebodied by Duple to fulfill the order.
Smiths Luxury Coaches (Reading) Ltd 1940 AEC Regal I Alexander FC35F
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
18/10/11 – 05:43
A historic item about Alexander`s that seems to have been missed on all accounts. In 1947, Central SMT acquired 50 PD1A chassis and they went to Alexander for bodying. Alexander were trying out a new system of riveting body panels together instead of welding. Unfortunately, this was unsuccessful, and this caused a delay. 25 of the chassis stayed with Alexander and the rest were sent to Northern Counties. Central`s first batch of All Leyland PD2s came into service in Spring 1948, and the PD1As didn’t come into service until 1949. The Alexander bodies were similar to the preserved Ribble TD5.
Jim Hepburn
28/12/11 – 07:28
Does anyone know the current whereabouts of Ron shacks old motor JRD 990 AEC it was at one time kept at Sandtoft but is thought to be back down Reading way. I would love to find it and also would like to know if any other Ex Smiths Coaches/Buses still exist. There has to be something left, Doesn’t there? Thanks for any help and advice.
Paul Avenell
04/10/12 – 07:25
A partial fleet history of Smith’s which can be accessed on the internet gives a construction date of 1948, which is consistent with the registration. Also says converted to full-front in 1958 – by Smiths? The said fleet history – and Ray Soper’s gallery – quote the vehicle as having been acquired from Comrose in 1958 – who were they? I don’t recognise the name as that of a one-time coach operator. I certainly don’t recognise it as being that of a one-time Lancashire-based coach operator, and it carries a Lancashire registration – so who had the vehicle from new? All questions, no answers this time I’m afraid.
David Call
04/10/12 – 18:06
Fortunately the PSVC are currently publishing details of buses with Lancashire registrations in their Journal, so we have their history of HTJ 857: AEC Regal I / Trans-United C33F, new 12/47 to Florence Motors, Morecambe. To Corvedale MS, Ludlow, 1950; Skylark, Salisbury, 12/52; Twist, Virginia Water, c8/55. Then it’s reported as going at an unknown date to Conrose Coaches, whom the PSVC haven’t been able to identify but they speculate that they may have been the same operator as Twist. Then to Smiths in 6/58 and rebodied with a 1936 Alexander FC35F body from a Leyland Cheetah, probably WS 8001 or WS 8039. Withdrawn by Smiths in 8/64 and to Fields (Reading) Ltd as a non-PSV, last licensed 7/66.
Western Scottish Motor Traction Co. Limited 1959 Bristol MW6G Alexander C41F
MSD 358; fleet number NT1494, is a 1959 Bristol MW6G, one of 52 with Alexander C41F bodies built for Western SMT. They remained in service until 1977, which speaks volumes for the build quality of the body and chassis and the thoroughness of Western’s maintenance programme. The wheel trims on the vehicle behind would suggest that its an AEC, it has a coach door, and at the risk of splitting hairs I would say this ones folding doors and grab rails on the backs of the seats are more the type associated with a DP rather than a coach. This style of body was widely used by SMT group operators, and they were a common sight on the Newcastle to Edinburgh and Glasgow services jointly operated with United. They have a resemblance to the Park Royal bodies of the era, and I always thought they were attractive vehicle. However, unlike the later “Y” type that became a common sight throughout the UK, they were never that popular South of the Border, although North Western did have a few.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
22/05/14 – 07:27
North Western’s used the BET standard bus shell (known to Alexander as the Z type) with a straight waist-rail and equal windows throughout the length except for the very rear. Alexanders just stuck their front end (as seen on this vehicle) onto the BET spec body. North Western called them “Highlanders” and painted them in coach livery. As a coach they made a perfectly acceptable dual-purpose vehicle!
Neville Mercer
22/05/14 – 07:28
Ronnie, I think you’ll find that North Western’s examples were of the straight waistrail variant. You could almost say that this one anticipated bus grant type doors by a good few years!
Chris Barker
22/05/14 – 07:28
The North Western vehicles came in 1961as Reliances in 30 ft length with a straight window line and equal length windows plus roof quarter lights. They were followed in 1962 by the 36 ft version on the Leopard chassis.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/05/14 – 07:29
Strange to think that they also had almost identical Guys. Both were highly regarded so must simply have been a dual sourcing thing. Strictly speaking, the only English examples belonged to Barton – North Western never had any of these. What North Western DID have were standard BET bodies (built by Alexanders) but with this front grafted on. These were on Reliances and its first PSU3 Leopards. The recent book on the Y type points out that this twin flat screen design lasted into the ’80s as it was still being used on AL deckers – such as those delivered between 1973 and 1981 to STD and, later, SYPTE.
David Oldfield
22/05/14 – 14:22
Fully agree with the quality of build and good maintenance Ronnie – I recall the Guys working out of Carlisle on services to Annan as late as 1976. What struck me most about Western SMT in those days was that the vehicles were usually turned out in an immaculate condition. The fully lined out livery was also superb though it lost its edge once standard SBG fleet names replaced gold at the end of the decade.
Mike Morton
23/05/14 – 07:55
As well as Barton James Smith & Co (Wigan) Ltd and the associated Webster Bros (Wigan) both had Leyland Tiger Cub versions of this body. The six Barton Tiger Cubs were operated for over 19 years and then sold on to other operators. Now that is long service particularly as Tiger Cubs were considered by many to be too lightweight and not up to the job!
Alan Oxley
23/05/14 – 07:56
David, I think that you might have forgotten the batch supplied to Smiths of Wigan, some of which later served with Green Bus. There was also the Lancashire-registered Tiger Cub/Alexander demonstrator TTB 80 which served with Caelloi Motors in Pwllheli before ending up with Partridge of Hadleigh (and burning out at the depot!)
Neville Mercer
23/05/14 – 13:06
I stand corrected. Thanks, chaps.
David Oldfield
26/05/14 – 09:36
Note the use of service number ’30X’. The joint Western SMT/Ribble Lancashire-Scottish services, on paper at least, carried different service numbers north and south of Carlisle. The daytime Manchester-Glasgow service was X30 in the Ribble series (and therefore the service number south of Carlisle) and 97A in the WSMT series (north of Carlisle). Maybe WSMT didn’t have letters in the first of the three ‘number’ blinds and so ‘X30′ was displayed as ’30X’. The night service was numbered X20 and 97B on the same basis. In the summer 1964 timetable the northbound X30 took 9 hours 45 minutes end to end (9 hours 33 minutes southbound). Quite a marathon! Can anyone tell if this photo was taken in the Manchester area? Perhaps the railway catenary at top right is a clue?
David Slater
03/06/14 – 07:35
Manchester is highly plausible, since very few places had overhead electrified railways in 1959. Manchester had two going on three (Altrincham and Sheffield, with Crewe in progress). So, taking a stab in the dark, I’d suggest the pointy building in the background is not unlike the City Road Inn at the junction of Albion Street and Whitworth Street West. That’s right beside the Altrincham line and a stone’s throw from Lower Moseley Street bus station. Though looking on Street View its hard to place the viewpoint. But so much as obviously changed around there in the intervening 55 years.
Keith
03/06/14 – 11:16
Keith has the location spot on as far as I’m concerned. This was a regular overflow parking spot for Lower Mosley St Bus Station.
Phil Blinkhorn
11/07/14 – 16:29
There was also a 1955 example of this style for Kingston Coaches on Guy Arab LUF; the furthest south this style got. Alan Oxley will know but I think either Barton or Western SMT were the last customer for this version, Barton switching to Reliances from 1955. By 1956 the Alexander and SOL were taking a straight waist variant.
Stephen Allcroft
13/10/15 – 06:27
I Remember Edinburgh Corporation had Coaches of this type in its City Tours Fleet. They were on Leyland chassis and looked very smart in there Black and Ivory Colours similar to Western SMTs London coaches. When they were finished with there coaching duties they were sold to Ulster at the beginning of the 1960s. Does anyone have any photos when they were with Edinburgh
George Fender
16/08/16 – 07:26
In the late 60’s, as a student, I travelled several times on the night bus from Manchester to Glasgow. I don’t know about other nights of the week, but on Fridays there were so many passengers that there were three buses. Once you were “in the know”, if you were going all the way to Glasgow, it paid to turn up at Lower Moseley Street half an hour in advance of the scheduled time as the first of the three buses would leave early and full and only stop at Penrith for toilets and the all-night cafe. The first time I made the journey, I was on the third bus, which left at the advertised time and stopped everywhere, of course getting to Penrith just after a lot of other buses going north and south so the queue at the cafe was just too long to contemplate. As I remember it, though, even the third bus would arrive at Glasgow much earlier than timetabled.
Eastern Scottish 1966 Bristol RELH6G Alexander C38F
Seen on layover in London are three of the Alexander C38F bodied Bristol RELH6G coaches operated by Eastern Scottish from a batch totalling 33 vehicles of the type delivered in 1966. These toilet equipped coaches brought a new level of refinement to the lengthy journey between the Capital and Caledonia for several years. In this picture, none of the vehicles is carrying the “Bristol RE” nameplate on the radiator grille which they certainly wore at another time in their lives.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
11/07/22 – 06:02
Just to clarify, the vehicles from left to right are EWS 166D, EWS 193D and EWS 190D, with matching fleet numbers XA166/193/190 A.
Roger Cox
11/07/22 – 06:03
I could be wrong on this ‘I frequently am’ but I’m pretty sure that the services to Scotland, i.e. Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness, were all overnight only. Unlike the United Tyne Tees Thames, which was twice a day. 8am and pm if memory serves.
Ronnie Hoye
12/07/22 – 05:43
Eastern Scottish did operate daytime services between London and Edinburgh, per my photo herewith.
Richard Slater
13/07/22 – 06:15
Thanks for that, Richard. I did say that I was frequently wrong. The location looks to be the start of the Tyne Bridge, heading north towards Newcastle. The bus facing us, is probably a Gateshead & District Alexander ‘A’ type bodied Leyland Atlantean, and the one to the left is a Newcastle Corporation, or possibly by that time a PTA turning to go towards Gateshead Station. Bit hard to tell, but my guess would be a P/R bodied MkV AEC Regent.
Ronnie Hoye
13/07/22 – 06:16
I think you’ll find that you are both correct. Eastern Scottish called the daytime services “Tours” – as they took 2/3 days to do the journey with overnight stops.
David Oldfield
14/07/22 – 06:01
The Summer 1969 ABC Bus and coach guide shows conventional daytime journeys on both routes (Edinburgh and Glasgow), which completed the journeys within the same day. As far as I know, the 2/3 day tours were only operated by Eastern Scottish. Departure was at 08:00 from both ends, on both routes.
Nigel Frampton
15/07/22 – 06:05
Memory tells me that, in my student days in Birmingham, the Standerwicks would move out of the fast lane only for blue lights and the Scottish coaches, and I think they were usually Western, rather than Eastern, on the M6.
Pete Davies
16/07/22 – 06:24
Speaking as a retired LGV Instructor, Pete, I can tell you quite categorically that there is no such thing as the ‘Fast Lane’ on UK Motorways. You drive on the left, unless overtaking
Ronnie Hoye
17/07/22 – 06:29
Ronnie: Unfortunately regardless of how many times broadcasters have been told by me and others to stop using “Fast Lane” in traffic reports they will persist and thus those like Pete perpetuate it in everyday usage. I remember once climbing the M6 southbound from Penrith towards Shap Summit and there were 3 coaches from different companies (Well different liveries anyway) having a 3 mile drag race up the gradient.
