Taken in the mid sixties at the exit of Eastbourne Cavendish Place coach station this photo is of one of the last batch of Southdown’s 130 Tiger Cub/ Beadle coaches. Delivered in 1958 No 1122 registration UCD 122 was one of the last batch of 15 which were the only ones with front entrances the other 115 having centre entrances, this particular car (to use the correct Southdown term) was to C37F layout the rest were C41F with the exception of 1128/9 which were C32F these two were also painted in pale blue and cream for a contract with Linjebus a Swedish tour company. As this style of body was I believe peculiar to South down and this front entrance batch small in number I have not seen many photos of them here or elsewhere.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
22/11/17 – 07:44
It still looks odd for me to see front entrance Southdown coaches, so rare were they! These few do remind me, somewhat, of the 11XX (XUF XXX) Weymann Fanfare-bodied Tiger Cubs of the early 1960’s. I think there was a second batch later. But these vehicles came in penny numbers, too!
Chris Hebbron
24/11/17 – 07:29
Its staggering to realise that one batch of coaches could number 130 and just goes to show how the British holiday scene has changed so much. Southdown also had many more batches of coaches in those days and it would be interesting to know what the total coach fleet strength was. And that was only one of the south coast operators to which could be added East Kent, M & D, Royal Blue and numerous others further west.
Philip Halstead
25/11/17 – 07:58
According to my 1966 7th edition of Ian Allen BBF Vol 1, Southdown had no less than 401 coaches, and a total fleet strength of 946. As Philip says, add to this M & D, East Kent , Royal Blue etc. and the numbers are quite staggering. In relation to Chris’s comment about front entrances, all post 1958 deliveries to Southdown had them, although the position of the door on the Commer Avengers was debatable! Most pre 1958 deliveries were central entrance.
Roy Nicholson
25/11/17 – 07:59
The total of 130 coaches of this type were in fact delivered over four years No’s 1000-1039 Reg OUF 100-139 in 1955, 1040-1074 Reg RUF 40-74 in1956, 1075-1114 Reg SUF 875-914 in 1957 and the last the front entrance batch 1115-1130 Reg UCD 115-129 in 1958. The Weymann Fanfare bodied Tiger Cubs came in two batches 1130-1144 Reg XUF 130-144 in 1960 and 1145-1154 Reg 8145-8154 CD in 1962 after that the Leopard was the chassis of choice.
Diesel Dave
17/01/18 – 06:26
The details about seating capacity for this batch are wrong. There were in fact 5 different as follows, 1115/6/7/8/9 were 41 seats, 1120-5 were 37 seats, 1126/7 were 41 seats, 1128/9 were 32 or 30 (varied depending on the ours they were running at the time. Now for liveries, 1126/7 were new in triumph blue/cream, 1129 was blue/cream (different) and lettered Linjebuss. This was a Swedish operator for whom Southdown operated a Round Britain tour. 1120-5 were used on Southdown Beacon Tours, at least 1125 having a cream roof and window surrounds from mid-58 to /62. 1128 had a continental step fitted below the central offside emergency exit and was used on a 17-day tour to Moscow for a tour operator called L F Moreland. And just to make the batch really interesting, 1116 was fitted with air suspension by -/60 as a ‘test-bed’ for the new Leopards due the next year !!
Paul Statham
09/04/18 – 07:46
I came across a mention in a book about a “Southdown” coach arriving at the newly opened Hotel Ukrania, Moscow in 1958. It carried 30 tourists from the Midlands and had taken a week to get there from Victoria Coach Station.
Southern National 1929 Leyland Lion LT1 Beadle B35R
Before the First World War, the public transport needs in Cambridge were met by the horse drawn Cambridge Street Tramways Company and some small, often short lived, independent motor bus operators, most notably the Cambridge Motor Omnibus Company. In 1907 the assets of the struggling Cambridge Motor Omnibus Company were bought by James Berry Walford who hailed from Egham in Surrey. He relaunched the business in 1908 as the Ortona Motor Company which progressively became the major operator in the Cambridge area, finally seeing off the tramways company in February 1914. In 1913 The BET/BAT group took a initial 50% shareholding in Ortona, to which railway interests were later incorporated, and in 1919 Thomas Tilling set up the neighbouring Eastern Counties Omnibus Company in Ipswich which then became a Tilling/BAT company in 1928. In 1929, T/BAT assumed control of United Automobile Services and took steps to rationalise the somewhat sprawling United territory that covered large parts of Northumbria, Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and East Anglia. The Lincolnshire sector became the Lincolnshire Road Car Company, and the East Anglian part was transferred to an expanded Eastern Counties Road Car Company which subsumed the Ortona business on 14 July 1931. The Ortona vehicle livery changed from green to red, and 94 vehicles, 73 of them less than five years old, all with pneumatic tyres, were transferred to the new business. By the 1920s Ortona’s favoured choice of manufacturer had become Leyland, with Titan TD1 double deckers ultimately predominating. Single deck deliveries were more varied, but three Leyland Lion LT1 saloons with Dodson B32F bodies, VE 2142/3/4 arrived with Ortona in November/December 1929. A picture of VE 2144 in original form may be found in Paul Carter’s book, Cambridge 1, to which much of this detail must be credited. These ran with ECOC until 1945, and it is thought that they acquired Gardner engines during that period. In the picture the two inspection holes in the bonnet suggest that a 5LW lay beneath it, probably fitted by ECOC. VE 2143 was sold to Southern National who fitted it with a new Beadle B35R body and a CovRad radiator in 1947 and gave it fleet number 3439. On disposal by Southern National it was acquired by G J Mutton, a showman of Coalpit Heath, South Gloucestershire. This bus was still in use with a showman when photographed in 1961 on Mitcham Common. Behind the Lion may be seen another former Western/Southern National bus, YD 4707, an AEC Regent of the early 1930s rebodied by Beadle around 1943/4, with its upper deck trepanned for fairground duties. Does any OBP expert have more details of this bus please?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
13/04/22 – 08:13
Just out of interest, between 1925 and 1929 Ortona placed a total of 24 BMMO SOS chassis. These comprised of 7 “S” types in 1925/6, 7 “Q” types in 1927 and 5 each of the “M” and “DD” types in 1929.
Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
West Yorkshire Road Car Company 1948 Bedford OB Beadle B30F
West Yorkshire needed a few small buses for certain routes to replace there pre-war Leyland and Dennis small buses. Bristol who were the main supplier of buses to West Yorkshire as they were controlled by the B.T.C. were not producing any small lightweight buses at the time so they ordered four Bedford OBs has the photo above.
FWX 547 Initially numbered 614 – renumbered SP1 in April 1954
FWX 548 615 – SP2
FWX 549 K616 – KSP3
FWX 550 K617 – KSP4
The first two were based at Harrogate and were for the Cornwall Road route which is the destination of the bus in the photo, other local services were also undertaken in Harrogate by the two Bedfords. The other two Bedfords were based at Keighley (the “K” prefix was for Keighley-West Yorkshire) and were used on the Riddlesden service which had a weak wood canal swing bridge. West Yorkshire also had a Bedford OB coach with a Duple C26F body built in 1947 registration FWW 596 fleet number CP1 it was based in York and was used for summer city tours. I think it was the only one based at York but if you know different please leave a comment.
A full list of West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.
Copy contributed by Chris Youhill
You may be right in thinking CP1 was the only one of the little Bedford OBs based at York Chris. It was one of two OB coaches supplied to West Yorkshire in 1947 (646/7: FWW596/7). A further two arrived the following year (648/9: FWW598/9), all had Duple C26F coachwork and the batch was renumbered CP1-4 in 1954. CP1 was given an overhaul in 1957 at Central Works, and alterations to the coachwork included fitting of cantrail windows and perspex roof panels for its new role as the York city tour coach. It was withdrawn in 1968, being replaced by none other than CF1 (8848 WY), one of the two Ford Thames/Duple coaches taken over with the Samuel Ledgard business.
Bedford OBs are just like a big car don’t you think, and the crash gearbox wine was just a great sound.
Anonymous
With respect Anonymous I can’t agree there – the OBs were incredible commercial passenger chassis with “hearts of oak.” The amount of heavy service work that they could reliably perform with their modest 28 hp petrol engines was just phenomenal. I’ve had the pleasure, thrill even, of steadily ascending some very long forbidding hills with full loads – for example Norwood Edge from Farnley in West Yorkshire. The wartime service OWBs put in even more incredible performances than their peacetime luxury coach kin. I agree though that the melodious howl of the gearboxes in the first three ratios, followed by the “silent calm after the storm” in top was just wonderful.
Moss Tours Isle of WiGht 1955 Beadle Rochester Beadle C41C
This picture of WKJ 787, a Beadle Rochester C41C coach was taken in 1970 at Alum Bay, Isle of Wight. The Rochester was an integral design from the Dartford based coachbuilder, and was powered by the Rootes TS3 3 cylinder horizontally opposed piston two stroke engine, very similar to the pre war Sulzer ZG9. (The wartime Junkers Jumo aero engine operated on related principles but differed in several design aspects.) The TS3 was designed initially at the Humber works of the Rootes group, and production was undertaken at the former Tilling Stevens (hence “TS”) factory in Maidstone that Rootes acquired in the autumn of 1950. Two stroke engines have a power stroke on every rotation of the crankshaft, and have to have some form of pressure charging for induction. On the TS3 (and on contemporary Foden two strokes) this was achieved by a Roots (no commercial relation to Rootes) supercharger driven by the engine, which absorbed some of the power output. The engine had a capacity of 3.26 litres and developed 105 bhp at 2400 rpm. The very distinctive exhaust note akin to a Gatling Gun in full cry earned these engine the sobriquet of “Knockers”. A four cylinder 4.35 litres version was developed giving 200 bhp at 2600 rpm, and 14 prototypes ran 1.2 million miles very successfully, but this programme came to a halt with the Chrysler takeover of Rootes in 1967. Chrysler had entered into joint agreements with fellow American engineers Cummins for commercial vehicle engine supplies, and the exceptionally promising TS4 was an embarrassment to these arrangements. As it turned out, the Cummins V6 and V8 engines were a disaster. The TS3 was subsequently cancelled as well, and Chrysler turned to Perkins for the supply of smaller engines. Yet another promising British engineering achievement foundered upon corporate ignorance and myopia. //www.commer.org.nz/ The Rochester in the picture began life in 1955 as a Beadle demonstrator, and was later acquired by Moss Tours on the Isle of Wight. It was bought by a church group in the 1990s, and then thankfully sold on into preservation. To my eye, the body design is quite well proportioned, making due allowances for the ample application of chrome at the front. A recent view of this Rochester may be found here:- www.flickr.com/
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
03/08/12 – 07:57
To my mind this is pretty much what a centre entrance Weymann Fanfare would have looked like. I’ve never seen one, so was that an option or were they all front entrance?
Ronnie Hoye
03/08/12 – 07:58
Whereas there were front entrance Rochesters there were never centre entrance Fanfares. They are suspiciously similar but I believe Weymann were on the market first and, if you ignore the Fanfare front end, the rest can be seen as pure Beadle – despite similarities. I still find it incredible, after all these years, that Beadle “got away with” the Rochester as did Duple (or was it Roe?) with the Elizabethan and the Dalesman. This vehicle made a guest appearance at last year’s Hemel Running Day. Handsome beast, whatever.
David Oldfield
03/08/12 – 07:59
Yorkshire Woollen had a batch registered CHD 375-390 new in 1957 and these were C41F.They were all withdrawn in 1967.
Philip Carlton
03/08/12 – 08:12
I’ve seen this several times, in ISLAND QUEEN guise. Moss still exists as an operator on the Isle of Wight, as part of Southern Vectis, whose fleet has been renumbered in the last few weeks as part of an exercise involving the whole of “Go South Coast”.
Pete Davies
03/08/12 – 10:56
What a lovely picture. I can see the Fanfare similarities but it smacks of Yeates in some ways too.
Les Dickinson
03/08/12 – 17:20
The TS3 was an amazing engine; a real success story in a difficult area of internal combustion technology. General Motors also produced the Detroit Diesel with a Roots blower, as early as 1938. It was used in some British tanks, but never used in the UK other than this, to my knowledge. Chrysler made a stupid decision to scrap development (which included plans, jigs and engines) of the TS4, which was virtually ready to go. A couple of engines survived under wraps and here is the wonderful sound of a TS4 running: www.youtube.com/
Chris Hebbron
03/08/12 – 17:21
Yes, Les, the somewhat ornate decoration does suggest the designer had a look at some Yeates products and liked what he saw. I’ve always had the idea that the Yeates decoration was overdone, on the basis of “There’s a bit here that’s still blank. Let’s decorate it!” It must have increased the body weight, surely?
Pete Davies
03/08/12 – 17:21
Southdown had 25 Rochesters the first five of which had centre entrances but the windscreens and the first body bay were quite different being more akin to the bodies fitted to Southdown’s Tiger Cubs which were being delivered around that time. The remaining twenty were standard front entrance 41 seat models which were used extensively on express services. I drove later Commer Avengers fitted with this engine which could be quite lively if revs were kept up which makes me think I would love to have tried the four cylinder version it could have had great potential another chance missed.
Diesel Dave
03/08/12 – 17:40
I have been through my archives and attached is a picture you may want to add to the current discussion. Island Queen is owned by Roger Burdett and in 2008 I was a passenger on it to Scotland via the Kirkby Stephen Rally. The day before we went to the Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway where I took this picture. Besides the obvious change in livery the vehicle has lost one of the orange front skylights.
Ken Jones
04/08/12 – 07:45
Thanks for that link to the TS4, Chris. That sound takes me right back to the days when the Southdown Commers could be seen (and decidedly heard) sprinting along the A22 and A23 south of Croydon. The cancellation of the TS4 and discontinuation of the TS3 should be added to the sadly substantial list of corporate follies that has denuded the UK economy of much of its engineering expertise.
Roger Cox
04/08/12 – 07:46
How did it perform, Ken, and was the engine noise subdued inside?
Chris Hebbron
04/08/12 – 07:47
I couldn’t have put it better myself Pete, this is better for being a little less cluttered I think.
Les Dickinson
04/08/12 – 11:41
Reference question above from Chris Hebbron – I thought it performed well – Scotland and back with no problems – and as a passenger it gave a nice ride. It was however noisy depending where you sat, so choice of seat is very important on this vehicle as I soon discovered.
Ken Jones
04/08/12 – 17:20
The TS4 was discontinued as a result of the Rootes takeover by Chrysler who introduced the V6 in the Dodge KP Series. This engine was seriously fast outpacing the TS3 and according to my father (who used the TS4 in development on the road). Unfortunately it was an erratic engine throwing belts and of course saw its reputation totally screwed by its lack of reliability in Daimler Roadliners. Island Queen is a delight to drive and ok for noise if you sit in the front half. It is likely to be out and about in the second half of 2013
Roger Burdett
04/08/12 – 20:46
I’m sure that the initial engine in the Roadliner was a Cummins ‘small-V’ one, which proved troublesome to the point where it was replaced by a Perkins engine and finally a Leyland unit, none of which produced a fully acceptable solution. I’ve seen it mentioned that it was originally a marine unit and suffered from problems of responsiveness, not a problem in a marine setting. Other contemporary Cummins engines were pretty good, but the one fitted was suitably very compact. The chassis appears also to have been prone to flexing, causing body problems. The TS4 never really came out of R&D and into volume production, to my knowledge. Whatever the shortcomings of the early Leyland Nationals, they acquitted themselves well in comparison with the Roadliner. Thx, Ken, for the passenger experience pointers.
Chris Hebbron
07/08/12 – 07:14
I have had a ride on this vehicle, and got the impression that the engine noise was amplified by the entrance stairwell, which is presumably right next to the engine. This suggested that a front-entrance one would probably be more refined.
Peter Williamson
13/08/12 – 08:49
Here is a link to a picture of a Rochester with a front entrance body. The pillar at the rear of the front curved corner glass has had to be repositioned from that of the centre entrance design in order to accommodate the door. This one, KPR 688, was apparently one of three Rochesters bought new by Bere Regis and District in 1957. www.flickr.com/photos/
Roger Cox
15/10/12 – 17:06
The other surviving Rochester, 8 GMK, is likely to be a couple of years before it appears on the rally scene as there are a couple of others in the queue before it gets started. There is a lot of work to do to it, including a large dent in the rear dome and some chassis work. Plus I need to get the ‘K’ and the VAS finished first. There are quite a few shots of it at this link.
Charlie Lemon
06/05/13 – 08:19
I travelled many hundreds of miles on the Yorkshire Woollen Rochesters and always enjoyed riding on them. However, while 105 bhp is impressive on paper, my recollection is that they had no worthwhile torque whatsoever, which made hill climbing a slow and tedious business, even with a driver who knew to keep the revs up (they were the only coaches at the time fitted with a rev counter). With someone who tried to drive them like a Gardner, things became hopeless as below a certain RPM the engine switched to four stroke which halved the power. As far as noise is concerned, I do not recall them being any worse than, say, a Leyland inside but the ones I knew had front entrances and I always sat at the front. Outside was a different matter. I used to deliver papers early in the morning and remember a brace of Rochesters heading for Blackpool in the morning stillness as they blasted their way out of Cleckheaton. They were audible for about 3 miles. Heaven only knows what a TS4 would have sounded like.
Bob Hunter
29/10/13 – 07:17
The resemblance between the Weymann Fanfare and the Beadle Rochester, which was highlighted earlier in this thread, is also mentioned in John Senior’s “The Weymann Story Part 2 1942-1966”. Apparently at a time when Weymann was highly profitable there was a disagreement between the managing director, DJA (Jack) Davies, and the owners, United Molasses, about what to do with the profits. The row became acrimonious and Davies was forced to leave. He went to Beadle in March 1955, and the Rochester appeared the following year.
Peter Williamson
06/11/13 – 16:08
On YouTube under the heading ‘QUANTOCK CLASSIC BUS DAY 2011 Part3’ a short journey aboard WKJ 787 is included in the video. The Rochester footage begins at 5.54 and lasts until 8.09, followed by a very brief ‘encore’ from 9.20 – 9.56. Sound effects from the little Commer TS3 engine are as one would expect – growly, raucous and gorgeous. It’s definitely worth watching/listening to if you like 2-stroke diesels – just make sure the neighbours are out before you turn up the volume!
Brendan Smith
07/11/13 – 07:15
Brendan: My word- I’d forgotten what it was like. An Atco with hyperdrive…. and what a driver!
Joe
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
04/02/14 – 07:41
Does anyone have any information about WKO 136 ? apparently a demonstrator.
Potteries Motor Traction 1956 Beadle Rochester Beadle C41F
Taken in the summer of either 1963 or ’64 this photo of Potteries fleet number C7717 registration 717 AEH which was a Beadle Rochester C41F integral coach delivered in 1956, it is seen here about to enter Southdown’s Royal Parade garage where most tour coaches were parked and heavy repairs were carried out at that time, the Rochester was an unusual choice for extended tours probably due in some measure to it’s raucous 3 cylinder 2 stroke engine although if the revs were kept up it gave a creditable performance, for it’s day, but more revs meant more noise. Southdown had 20 similar coaches delivered in 1957 No’s 6-25 with registrations TCD 6-15 and TUF 16-25 which were used mainly on express services.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
12/10/14 – 08:53
A beautiful example of a Fanfare clone by Beadle. Shame about the raucous underpinnings.
David Oldfield
12/10/14 – 09:28
Fanfare clone was my first thought. Those engines were awful. There was a company called Trumix near Reddish, Stockport with a fleet of Commer mobile concrete mixers which regularly deafened the neighbourhood.
Phil Blinkhorn
12/10/14 – 09:29
A delightful looking coach indeed, but with integral construction I wonder what the longevity of such vehicles was. The specification “chassisless” always fills me with horror at the memory of the Yorkshire Woollen District Leyland Olympics of the 1950s – these seemingly modern buses showed signs of disintegration when almost new on the admittedly very rough minor roads of the 36 route from Sovereign Street Leeds to Elland. Since then of course there have been commendable strides in the construction method – a certain Routemaster comes immediately of course to mind along with many other very satisfactory designs.
Chris Youhill
13/10/14 – 07:41
London Transport’s tram/trolleybus division, led by an essentially LCC tram team, were unusually adventurous in ordering chassisless trolleybuses from about 1936, yet the bus division continued the traditional way until the advent of the Routemaster. The majority of the pre-war trolleybuses led a full life, too.
Chris Hebbron
13/10/14 – 07:42
Well, I never had first hand experience of these beasts, Chris, but I never heard of any structural problems. They were, literally, Fanfare clones, Phil. In its last ten years (as “Weymann Story Part 2” explains) there were lots of happenings which added up to the eventually death of a proud and distinguished coach-builder (Weymann). One was when the directors forced the removal of a popular and competent manager, Jack Davies, in 1955. [This was just after the introduction of the Fanfare coach.] Jack Davies was snapped up by another well regarded coach-builder, Beadle, who almost immediately brought the Rochester onto the market. [To be fair to Beadle if you “remove” the Fanfare front, the rest of the coach still bears a strong family resemblance to existing Beadle coaches!] As for the weakness of integrals. Chris is, as ever, correct in his assertions. AEC (Monocoach) and Bristol (LS) had the same problems as Leyland (Olympic/Olympian). Beadle however also had extensive experience building their post war integral vehicles using pre-war parts. Again I never heard anything particularly bad about these vehicles – and they were hardly mainstream, mass-produced vehicles.
David Oldfield
13/10/14 – 07:43
These were sold shortly before I joined PMT in September 1968 after 12 years service so they must have been reasonably successful. More than can be said for the Roadliners that replaced them! We had the dubious distinction of changing the engines (due to failure) in all six Roadliners at various times at East Kent, Maidstone and District and Southdown Depots whilst they were on extended tours.
Ian Wild
13/10/14 – 17:25
Beadle were certainly an innovative concern. Can someone explain the reason for and date of their demise?
Chris Hebbron
14/10/14 – 06:31
Beadle gave up building buses in 1958. The last were the PD2s for Southdown, built on Park Royal frames. They probably gave up because the golden years were over and supply far outweighed demand. They were a family firm with other irons in the fire – not least a Rootes car franchise. Eventually this became a VW franchise and they remain one of the most prominent VW dealers in the south.
A look at their web-site shows a big set up with, in addition, franchises for Kia, Land Rover, Nissan, Skoda and Toyota.
David Oldfield
14/10/14 – 06:33
There was certainly nothing wrong with Beadle bodywork, as it was widely used in many quarters, and not just the south east. They also built up quite a reputation with those chassisless rebuilds using Leyland Tiger/Titan or AEC Regent/Regal chassis. I always felt these looked stylish. Southdown used Beadle for a significant quantity of new builds, rebuilds and re-bodying from approx 1947 to 1957. These included rebodying 37 Leyland TD3,4,5; New bodies on 23 Leyland PS1’s (half-cab), and later rebuilding these and 40 Duple-bodied PS1’s to full front; Rebuilding 50 Leyland TS7/TS8’s into chassisless coaches (20 at 30 feet and 30 at 26 feet length); New bodies on 12 Leyland PD2/12 d/d’s (Park Royal supplied the frames); A magnificent total of 130 coach bodies on Leyland Tiger Cub chassis (I remember these most as being on the regular Portsmouth/London service, but they fulfilled many duties); and finally 25 Beadle-Commer TS3 coaches of the Rochester style. They look slightly different to the PMT one above due to having a central entrance. That’s a total of 190 new bodies, 37 rebodying older stock, and 113 rebuilds of various means – grand total of 340. I think they also did some rebuilding of Leyland TD3//4/5s which weren’t given a total re-body post-war. I don’t recall the details of Beadles giving up coach or bus building, but they seem to have produced satisfactory work for all their customers.
Michael Hampton
14/10/14 – 06:34
John Clayton Beadle established a horse drawn carriage construction business in Lowfield Street, Dartford in 1893, and, in 1900, built a new factory in Spital Street, which was extended in 1910 to include a car sales showroom. The firm expanded during the motor age into passenger and haulage vehicle bodywork, and general engineering. During WW2 it was a subcontractor to Shorts of Rochester, supplying parts for Sunderland flying boats. Beadle continued to make bus/coach/general bodies and integral vehicles up to 1957, by which time the declining demand for such products resulted in the firm concentrating on its private car sales activities. These continue to the present day from showrooms in Princes Street, Dartford, but the firm also has outlets in other towns in Kent and south London. The 1910 construction and car showroom premises in Dartford of J. C. Beadle are now, ignominiously, a Wetherspoon pub called the “Flying Boat”, but the workshops to the rear were demolished many years ago. A gallery of Beadle vehicles may be found here:- www.flickr.com/groups/1890258@N22/ Strictly speaking, the Routemaster was a semi chassisless design, employing front and rear subframes to carry the engine, wheels/axles, suspension and transmission components. The self supporting bodywork provided the structural integrity for the vehicle as a whole. It has been suggested that one reason for the abandonment of the FRM was the difficulty of introducing a centre exit without seriously weakening the structure, though redesign could doubtlessly have resolved the problem. (The other reason was that Stokes was firmly against the FRM, and Leyland had the integral Titan to sell.) One fully successful integral vehicle was the Bristol LS which ran to a production total of 1409.
Roger Cox
14/10/14 – 10:59
I too can remember this Rootes engine in various vehicles- sounding like a monster version of a mad moped. Thanks for the potted history, Roger. Beadle seemed to be jobbing coachbuilders, seeing a niche for modern-looking but cheap (?) coaches for firms perhaps wanting to replace half-cabs. If we are around 1956, as seems the case, the Commer engine could also provide a response to the massive post-Suez fuel price inflation. Eventually, sixties “affluence” and the multi-nationals with their service networks must have squeezed them out.
Joe
15/10/14 – 07:22
…..and of course the Rootes franchise also explains to Commer/Rootes running gear!
David Oldfield
15/10/14 – 07:23
Thx, folks, for the potted history of Beadles. At least they’ve survived in some form. As for their Dartford showroom, to their credit at least Wetherspoon’s have a history of preserving old buildings which otherwise would have decayed away and/or been demolished.
Chris Hebbron
29/10/14 – 07:10
At my time at Beadles they also built Commer vans, a number of Commer trucks built for the G P O MOBILE workshops for the erection of telegraph poles,and for a short while Humber Hawk estate cars. My jobs were to fit wheel arches, floor trap doors for access to the engine, stair treads. also about 12 double decker buses cant remember if they were for Southdown or Maidstone & District.
Southdown Motor Services Ltd 1953 Beadle – Leyland Beadle FB31F
MUF 488 is one of those curious vehicles built by Beadles using Bedford or Leyland parts. The Leyland ones came from Tigers or Titans. In this case, the combination was delivered to Southdown in 1953, and has a FB31F body on TD5 running units. We see it outside the Southdown garage at Amberley on 13 September 2009.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
05/03/17 – 16:03
I suppose these days this would be called ‘recycling’. It is quite a nice looking coach although the front end lets it down a bit. Rather plain around the grille area and the joint between the upper windscreen sections and the destination display sits a bit uncomfortably.
Philip Halstead
06/03/17 – 07:08
If my information is correct, the NGT group had 18 of the type. They were all built on refurbished pre war AEC Regal chassis, and although mechanically an AEC down to the last nut and bolt., none of them carried AEC badges or logos. Northern had 10 FC35F versions DCN 83/92 – 1483/92; all similar to the example above, 1483 is currently undergoing restoration in the very capable hands of the NEBPT Ltd, who set themselves very high standards, I look forward to seeing the end result. The other eight were for Wakefields Motors at Percy Main depot. Six were delivered in 1952, FT 7275/80 – 175/180, and were FC35F, the fronts differed to these, in that they had more bright trim, and an altogether softer look about them. A photo of 178 is posted elsewhere on this site. The other two FT 7791/2, 191/2 arrived in 1953, they were FC39F, as well as a larger seating capacity, they had a similar front to these which had a different destination layout incorporating a number section, to allow them to be used as D/P’s. All the P/M intake were different to those of NGT, in that they had twin cab doors and a full bulkhead separating the cab from the passenger saloon. 191/2 were sold to Garner Bridge of Weir, and 175/80 were exported to Yugoslavia of all places.
Ronnie Hoye
06/03/17 – 07:08
The running units for this coach came from pre-war Leyland Tiger TS8 FCD 368, which was delivered to Southdown in January 1939. The original Harrington B34R body, which had been temporarily converted to B30R perimeter seating (plus up to 30 standing) during the war, was rebuilt (not rebodied) by Portsmouth Aviation in August 1947. This body was removed and sold for scrap in February 1953, and the chassis was then cut to form front and rear running units for attachment to the integral Beadle body structure. The same construction principle was adopted some years later for the London Transport Routemaster. The Beadle body was offered in 30ft or 26ft lengths, and Southdown had examples of both. (Southdown also employed Beadle to fit full fronts of similar appearance to its Duple bodied PS1 coaches of 1947 to 1949 vintage.) Beadle Rebuilds (as the integral conversions became generally known) were introduced also at around the same time (early 1950s) by Maidstone and District and East Kent, again using Leyland running units.
Roger Cox
06/03/17 – 07:09
This vehicle has SOUTHDOWN in capital letters, which would make it a bus rather than a coach.
Chris Hebbron
06/03/17 – 17:12
Thanks for your thoughts, folks. The PSVC listing for this vehicle does not show whether it is TD or TS, but it does say B31F (not FB31F). Jenkinson says TD5 with FC35F. I note that his 1978 descriptions have been out of synch with other sources before! Chris H, yes, the general view is that it is a bus, but study the script on the front. I can understand why some consider it to be a coach. Now, where did we leave the discussion about bus, coach or dual-purpose?
Pete Davies
08/03/17 – 16:35
MUF 488 used the running gear from TS8 1468 (FCD368). It was delivered as a coach (888) but downgraded to bus work and renumbered 649 in 1958. Block lettering was usually, but not exclusively used on Buses. For example, the 15xx East Lancs Royal Tigers were delivered as DP’s with block lettering, but received ‘Mackenzie script’ when converted to OMO buses. The utility Guy open topers and Northern Counties DP Leopards also had ‘Mackenzie script’ and I have seen pictures of Beadle PD2/12’s similarly adorned. The front plaque with ‘Mackenzie script’ was a device used on many vehicles in place of the usual ornate Leyland marque badges. They were also used on ‘Queen Mary’s’. Hope this helps to clear up a few points noted previously.
Roy Nicholson
09/03/17 – 06:52
Thanks, Roy
Pete Davies
01/12/18 – 07:07
I recall this bus on omo operations with Southdown in the 50’s-60-s before sale to a Scout Group where it was painted blue. A friend of mine Ray Oliver from Chichester bought it and ran it for a time before selling it to whoever did the current repaint restoration. Alas we lost contact many years ago.
Keith Styles
03/12/18 – 09:26
I think the current owner has a couple of Southdowns and maybe this one will be out and about soon.
Roger Burdett
10/02/19 – 07:35
Re the Beadle re-bodied Southdown buses. Although they were mainly on the private hire/excursion work, they were used on a trial Service from Worthing to Steyning, I think numbered 66. The service ran from Worthing via North Lancing to the Sussex Pad, then along the narrow road to Bramber and Steyning. I don’t think it was a success.
East Kent Road Car Co Ltd 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV Beadle C32C
When new, this handsome-looking vehicle would have worn East Kent’s traditional coach livery of maroon and cream. In the photo it is seen towards the end of its East Kent days, still on active coaching duties, but wearing a revised livery of grey and maroon. At some point in its career, MJG 48 has received extra aluminium trim strips along the body sides, with another strip discreetly added above the headlights. This subtle, well thought out modification has, in my view, allowed for the application of an updated livery, whilst maintaining an air of quality and dignity befitting an older vehicle. (The coach is actually sporting NBC white bus-style fleetnames and ‘Double N’ logos on the sides, but somehow they do not dominate). This fine coach and its siblings had long working lives with East Kent, and most were not withdrawn I believe until 1975.
Talking of subtle differences, this is essentially the Rochester body (for separate chassis) but the front end does not immediately give it away. The main part of the body is uncannily like the Weymann Fanfare – even more so on the Rochester itself. Fine vehicle, fine operator – fine memories.
David Oldfield
24/09/12 – 17:15
After looking at yesterdays posting of the East Kent Beadle bodied Reliance I remembered having a photo of another of the batch in the original livery which was taken in the mid sixties in Eastbourne where I think the passengers had taken a lunch break on their way to Swanage. The traditional East Kent colours look superb on this style of bodywork but then they suited just about any style available at the time, we were fortunate in the south east in having three companies namely Southdown, M&D and East Kent all with superbly elegant liveries plus Eastbourne Corporation with their deep blue and primrose colours all within a relatively small area.
East Kent had three batches of Beadle bodied Reliances delivered in 1957 the 32 seat tour coaches with centre entrances in the photo No’s MJG 41-52 followed by No’s MJG 285-300 with 37 seat front entrance bodies which bore a resemblance to the Rochester integral design and lastly No’s NFN 327-349 with 41 seat bodies similar to 285 etc at least some of the later type even had a rear destination screens used when on express work, attached is a photo taken again in the mid sixties of NFN 341 on Margate sea front alas can’t see the rear panels.
NFN 341
I think that these Reliances along with Southdowns Tiger Cubs were the only underfloor engined chassis bodied by Beadle if you discount the Commer powered integrals of which incidentally East Kent had three KFN 250-252 delivered in 1955 with 41 seat front entrance dual purpose bodies if I am wrong no doubt someone on the site will put me in the picture.
I knew that I had to have forgotten something namely the Sentinels, but an even greater omission considering that I lived nearby is of course the Maidstone & District’s batch of Reliances delivered in 1957 No’s SO 223-239 reg No’s YKR 223-239 with B42F bodies. I am open to further correction.
Diesel Dave
06/01/13 – 07:04
The NFN is shown with the livery used when downgraded for bus work. Originally the livery was all-over red with an ivory waistband – which didn’t stop them being used on bus routes, of course.
East Kent Road Car Co Ltd 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV Beadle C32C
It’s a fine warm day on 12th July 1969 as this East Kent coach stands outside Lichfield cathedral on a private hire (assumed as it is unlikely at 12 years old to be on an extended tour). The entrance door and forward emergency exit are both open allowing a cooling breeze to pass through the coach. It looks very smart for its age with a livery and fleetname which exudes pride and quality. The dead hand of NBC corporatism had much to answer for in years to come.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
20/02/14 – 06:49
A superb photo of a superb coach. Thanks, again, Ian. It could almost be a publicity shot or the cover of a holiday brochure. As a mere Northerner, can any of our Southern experts help me out? In terms of outright quality and reputation, where did Beadle rank compared with Burlingham and Harrington, let alone Duple or Plaxton?
David Oldfield
20/02/14 – 06:50
I could be miles off the mark ‘as usual’ I know it’s centre entrance, but to me it has more than a hint of the Weymann Fanfare about it, especially around the windows. It’s certainly a handsome beast that would look good in almost any livery, even the ‘Corporate Image Brigade’ would have a job to make it look bad, but I’d bet it wouldn’t be for the want of trying.
Ronnie Hoye
20/02/14 – 09:13
Jack Davies was forced to leave Weymann under “shady circumstances” and ended up at Beadle. Shortly after, the Rochester was put on the market – a Fanfare clone.
David Oldfield
22/02/14 – 08:00
The recent posting of an East Kent Reliance reminded me of this photo taken on the A259 road across Romney Marsh in the mid sixties. It shows AFN 497B a Reliance 2MU4RA with a Duple Commander I C34F body one of a batch of ten delivered in May and June 1964 these took over the touring duties of the Reliance/Beadles. Photos of this batch of coaches seem few and far between as my admittedly limited searches have so far drawn a blank. I think that the Duple Commander body evolved with a minor hiccup in the Mk 2 with it’s overly heavy grille through the very stylish Mk 3 into the superbly elegant Commander IV of the early seventies one of the classics of the period, we all know what followed in the Dominant not bad but a definite backward step and the build quality was very suspect. The comments regarding the rich colours of the superb East Kent livery apply equally to these and all their other vehicles until that awful paintbrush wielding dead hand of the NBC corporate colour scheme struck like a plague of mediocrity.
Diesel Dave
22/02/14 – 09:24
Your critique of NBC paintwork and Duple coachwork is both poetic and true, Dave.
David Oldfield
23/02/14 – 06:47
These two coaches are a perfect example of the post war pre NBC differences between Tilling and BET Group coach fleets. Apart from vehicles acquired through takeovers, Tilling group companies had their hands tied, and other than cosmetic differences down to livery and trim, all their coach fleets were just variations on the same ECW box. Not that there was anything wrong with them, and I suspect that many BET Group companies would from time to time have opted for ECW bodies given the opportunity. However. looking at BET, the variety they had was endless, over the years BMMO and NGT had a couple of in house designs, and throughout the group virtually every coachbuilder was represented at some time or other, some even dipped a toe into the water with Bedford SB’s, Ford and Commer, but for the main part they stayed with the mid to heavyweight end of the market. Days that have sadly gone, but nostalgia is not what it used to be.
These Beadle bodies were popular with many BET group companies, most were built on refurbished pre war chassis, usually AEC or Leyland, and that was certainly the case with ten of Northern General Transport. However, from as early as 1923, NGT had a number of vehicles built on their own chassis. The post war chassis list were classified as NGT/AEC and numbered 132/174, I’m not sure if NGT built the chassis from scratch or if they were refurbished, but they all had AEC running gear and A173 engines. Between 1951/3, 43 were built, 37 bodied by Picktree to NGT designs, the service vehicles were affectionately know as “Kipper boxes”
Northern General Transport post war chassis list
Year
Chassis
Registration
Fleet Number
1951
132
BCN 888
1388
1952
134/42
CCN 368/76
1368/76
1952
149
CCN 404
1404
All FC35F Picktree A
1952
150/9
CCN 677/86
1457/66
1953
172/4
DCN 93/5
1493/5
All FC35F Picktree B
1951
133
CCN 402
1402
1953
160/71
DCN 67/78
1467/78
All B43F Picktree/NGT
However, six chassis 143-48 were bodied elsewhere; the 1952 Percy Main intake included six coaches with Beadle FC35F bodies, FT 7275/80 – 175/80. Two more arrived in 1953, FT 7791/2 – 191/2, but I cant find a chassis listing for them, so it’s possible they may have been re-bodies. The second two were FC39F and classed as D/P’s, and had a different treatment to the fronts with less bright trim and a number section on the destination layout. At the time the first six were delivered the predominant colour for the coach fleet was red, but the livery later reverted to the more familiar cream.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
19/09/13 – 18:12
The style of body is very similar to those which Beadle applied to various rebuilds for Southdown (MUF 488 is preserved) and East Kent (FFN 446 is preserved) of the same era, so Ronnie’s suggestion that the lack of chassis details may indicate rebody (or rebuild) is quite plausible. Nice view, Ronnie. Thanks for posting!
Pete Davies
20/09/13 – 12:42
Pete, on the subject of preserved Beadles, some while ago, the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd found one of Northern’s 1953 Beadles “DCN 83” in a scrap yard. Apparently, it was in a dreadful state, and some debate ensued as to whether or not it was beyond redemption. However, a deal was struck and it was transported home to the North East where it is currently being restored. The trust is nothing if not thorough, so don’t expect miracles time wise, but I’m certain that the finished article will be done to their usual very high standards.
Ronnie Hoye
20/09/13 – 18:13
Thanks for that, Ronnie. Good news indeed! Are members of the group now looking for a suitable chassis, or do they have one that was waiting for a body?
Pete Davies
21/09/13 – 08:27
Pete, if you type DCN 83 into your search engine, it should take you to an article on the trusts web site. It only gives a brief outline, but there’s quite a bit of background information about the vehicle. As you will see, there are several differences to the one in the posting. It has a different front and destination layout, and for some reason it has a large front near side cab window and doesn’t have a cab door, having said that, some of them didn’t have a bulkhead behind the driver, so that would render a N/S cab door surplus to requirements.
Western National Omnibus Co Ltd 1939 Bristol L5G Beadle B35R
This view of ex Western National No333 was taken at the Bristol Waterfront Running Day in 2011. It has a Beadle thirty-five-seat body and was in great shape, as can be seen. Thanks to all of you who have the ability, time (and money) to preserve wonderful examples like this.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
10/05/13 – 06:41
…..and so say all of us, Les.
David Oldfield
10/05/13 – 17:26
Well said, Mr Oldfield!
Pete Davies
11/05/13 – 08:23
What a superb restoration! It is so different yet so similar to the standard ECW product. The subtle curves of the nearside and cab area are truly delightful.
www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/
