Gore’s of Southport 1951 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15 Burlingham Seagull C37C new – C41C ??/??
Gore’s Coaches was the trading name of the Southport & Birkdale Motor and Carriage Co. Ltd. of Southport. I was quite taken aback to come across this late survivor of the Royal Tiger/Burlingham Seagull marque in such fine fettle outside Liverpool Lime Street Railway Station, whilst on an enthusiasts’ visit to Birkenhead and Wallasey on 13th June 1971. This one deserved to have survived into preservation – I wonder what became of it ?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
17/02/13 – 07:34
Super picture and beautiful vehicle – doesn’t look twenty years old, more like twenty months.
David Oldfield
17/02/13 – 13:31
Very nice, John! Thanks for posting. Reading Corporation (I see you don’t list any from that fleet yet, Peter) had assorted single deckers, even into the RE era, with the Burlingham trademark on the front. Flattery gets you everywhere!
Pete Davies
17/02/13 – 17:31
Any Burlingham will do for me – apart from the hideous flying pig (c1959) on Bedford/Ford chassis!
David Oldfield
18/02/13 – 11:00
It would be a hard job to make one of these look bad, but no doubt some of todays ‘Corporate Image Experts’ would have a good try.
Ronnie Hoye
18/02/13 – 12:08
Yes Ronnie, but imagine one in National white – that would be bad enough!
Thank you, Alan, but Roger’s views (good as they are) don’t appear in the column to the left, so a newcomer to the site may not know there are any of this operator without a closer study. I’ve found a few to submit for consideration and will fire them off to our Editor in the course of the next few weeks.
Pete Davies
19/02/13 – 15:23
Very true, David, the National all white reminded me of the factory finish commercial vehicles were delivered in prior to painting. It’s not so much all one colour that’s the problem, choice of colour could make all the difference on what were very similar vehicles. Take a Plaxton body for example, National all white? drab and anonymous, Glenton on the other hand were quietly restrained and dignified.
Ronnie Hoye
19/02/13 – 15:23
PSVC gives this coach as withdrawn by Gore’s in 11/72, with no further owner recorded. Evidently reseated to C41C at some time prior to this photo, but recorded as C37C, as given above, when new.
David Williamson
22/09/14 – 14:37
I am not a bus or coach driver, just a casual visitor to this site, but it occurred to me that there is a serious front overhang on the coach above. Did it not make it difficult to drive? I once drove a 3 ton truck on a one off 20 mile trip. That gave me the sensation of being slightly drunk. I would have thought that you would have felt completely plastered, driving the above!
Martin Robinson
28/10/14 – 16:52
There is a Burlingham Seagull advertised on eBay at the moment. //www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201202508209?clk_rvr_id=721251652239 I don’t know how accurate the listing is. It says 1958 Bedford SB8 Classic Vintage Coach yet further down it says it has a Leyland 350 engine. Did they put Leyland engines in the Bedford chassis?
John Lomas
29/10/14 – 06:59
They did fit Leyland engines, John, but I doubt the Leyland 0.350 is original. I don’t think the SB13 (with 0.350) was available in 1958 – more likely an SB8 (with 0.330). The 0.350 was probably a retrofit. 1958 was actually very close to the end of SBO and introduction of SB5 and SB8. I’m not expert enough in this part of Bedford’s history to be sure of dates – I only know the specifications. The SBG morphed into the classic SB3 (300 Bedford petrol), the SBO became the SB5 (330 Bedford diesel) and the SB8 (0.330 Leyland diesel) was an addition to the range. I believe the SB13 (0.350 Leyland diesel) eventually replaced the SB8 but everything was outlasted by the SB5 which continued (albeit with a new, indecipherable code) until the bitter end in 1985.
David Oldfield
29/10/14 – 06:59
Yes, Bedford SB8 and SB13 models had Leyland engines.
David Hick
29/10/14 – 15:56
Forgot to mention the rare SB1 with 300 Bedford diesel engine.
David Oldfield
29/10/14 – 15:56
The Bedford dealer, Arlington, had begun offering conversions of the ‘Big Bedford’ S-type goods chassis with the Leyland O350 (5.76 litre) engine from as early as 1952. Bedford themselves began to offer a Perkins R6 (5.56 litre) diesel option in both that model and the SBO coach chassis from 1953. In 1957 Bedford introduced their own 330 (4.92 litre) diesel engine to replace the troublesome R6, resulting in the SB1. At the same time they began to offer the Leyland O350 officially as an option, resulting in the SB8. In 1961 they replaced their own 300 diesel with the increased capacity 330 (5.42 litres), resulting in the SB5. By 1962 Leyland had replaced the O350 and its larger bore equivalent the O375 (not used by Bedford) with the revised O370 (6.05 litre) and O400 (6.54 litre) units respectively. The O370 went into the SB as the SB13, and the O400 into the twin-steer VAL, and later the VAM as well as various goods models.
John Stringer
29/10/14 – 17:04
….. and of course Leyland then produced their own version of the SB13 – the Albion Victor VT41L, with the O.370. Those who ran them held them in high regard but, like many models, they were a little late on the market and only lasted about three seasons before the VAM/R192 style lightweights took over from the traditional SB style motor for independents.
David Oldfield
05/08/18 – 07:45
I have just come across the messages sent four years ago concerning Bedford coaches fitted with a Leyland engine & I would just like to vouch how good that combination was. When Bedford deleted the option to specify a Leyland power unit in 1967/8 ie the Leyland O400 in the four wheeler VAM14 & “Chinese Six” VAL14 in favour of their own 466 engine to me it was a retrogressive step. The Bedford 466 engine was originally developed for the introduction of the KM lorry in 1966. The 466 was not a bad engine, but not a patch on a Leyland unit especially VALs. With this disservice by Bedfords a good number of coach firms move onto the Leyland (& indeed Perkins) powered Bristol LH & its longer brother, the LHL.
Andrew Spriggs
07/08/18 – 06:03
Andrew. I think most people – and certainly most operators – agree that the VAL14 and VAM14, because of their 0.400 engines, were better than the VAL70 and VAM70, with the Bedford 466. The Ford R series began to catch up with Bedfords and, possibly overtake them (literally) from this time on. Bedford’s heyday was really from the OB through to the SB3.
David Oldfield
09/08/18 – 07:18
Yes I agree with you David, as the Ford R series really gave Bedford a run for their money especially with the turbo engine & six speed gearbox on Fords. In the later years of Glenway Coaches, Fords served the company well,drivers only complaints were the turbo would cut out for no reason & a sloppy gearbox (having to fish for gears). Fords would fly along on the flat on the motorway, get to a gradient & then old AEC Reliances would fly past in the middle lane leaving the modern Ford standing. Going back to the original thread of Leyland Royal Tigers (bit before my time), the only one I recall was a 1952 model that had been rebodied in the mid 60s with a Plaxton Panorama body, my friend drove that one, he liked it apart from heavy steering & not too good brakes.
Whieldons (The Green Bus Co. Ltd) 1958 Guy LUF Burlingham Seagull C37F
From the beginning of November 1973 Whieldons t/a The Green Bus Service was taken over by the National Bus Co with Midland Red continuing much of the network although three Uttoxeter services passed to PMT o/w the Potteries Motor Services. Mr C J Whieldon had commenced bus operation in May 1927. By chance, I had a few rides in the spring of 1972 by catching an early Saturday journey out of Rugeley for Uttoxeter via Drointon returning direct via Abbotts Bromley. I still have a faded Setright ticket which might have been a return. The latter service was always a newish Seddon Pennine IV bus which continued on to Cannock but the Drointon service was an older coach no doubt as it wandered the country lanes. On one occasion I caught a Ford 570E with Duple Yeoman body i.e. it looked and sounded like a Bedford SB with a seat next to the driver. Once I enjoyed a ride on 500 URF, a Guy LUF with Burlingham Seagull coachwork which the company had bought new in 1958. The first passenger boarded somewhere in the lanes and the opportunity was taken for a photograph.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton
24/06/16 – 05:58
Oh dear, Keith; the mention of the excellent Guy Arab LUF in the same paragraph as the Seddon Pennine IV illustrates the decline of Green Bus from the sublime to the ridiculous. The Pennine IV was an abomination. Guy offered an underfloor engined chassis, initially the Arab UF, and then from 1953, the the lighter LUF, between 1950 and 1959, after which date the manufacturer chose to place all its eggs in the one ill fated basket called the Wulfrunian. It is rather curious that the Tilling group depended heavily upon Gardner engined underfloor engined chassis, yet the BET, municipal and independent sectors had limited choices of Gardner powered UF models. Atkinson, Daimler and Guy all produced Gardner engined underfloor chassis, but orders were never large. Daimler offered epicyclic transmission as standard, which was an option with Guy, but otherwise the gearbox in Atkinson and Guy models was of the constant mesh variety. The decidedly heavy Daimler Freeline was additionally suspect by virtue of its high pressure hydraulics until an air pressure variant became available. North Western Road Car sought to recreate Bristol simplicity and reliability in the rugged Atkinson chassis, but the heavy hand of BET central control stopped this project in its tracks, and Atkinson never really made much of an impression thereafter. Guy were generally more successful, but the real problem lay in the availability of the AEC Reliance, which, with its light steering and excellent synchromesh gearbox, was a driver’s dream. Even when the shortcomings of the AEC wet liner engines began to emerge, the sales scenario did not alter materially, though Leyland picked up customers with the introduction of the Leopard. I have often wondered if the availability of a decent synchromesh gearbox to the smaller makers might have influenced the situation in their favour. Perhaps the ideal would have been a Gardner powered Reliance. One is surely allowed to dream!
Roger Cox
27/06/16 – 05:53
I get the impression that BET’s central purchasing policy was more about bulk discounts, and cost generally, than anything else. Guys were almost certainly more expensive than Leylands and AECs, and the company might not have been able to handle the quantities required to allow bulk discounts.
Peter Williamson
29/06/16 – 06:11
Perhaps it’s just the angles of the photo, or maybe 500 URF was simply way past her best by then, but this might just about be the ugliest and most downtrodden Seagull I have ever seen. Were the glorious, beautiful Seagull bodies different for each type of chassis ?
Stuart C
29/06/16 – 16:11
I am not a Seagull expert but this I believe is the later version with the front entrance body and I believe has a higher waist line. IMHO the best derivative was the centre entrance version on the 8ft wide chassis as on Tiger Cubs and some Reliances. I also had a soft spot for the Ribble/Standerwick domed versions as they looked like a purposeful express coach.
Roger Burdett
29/06/16 – 16:12
This is a very late example of a Seagull Mk V body, but incorporates many non-standard features, most notably the straight moulding at skirt panel level. Burlingham had already moved on to the Mk VI (with window pans as supplied to Ribble and others) and the Mk VII (with “panoramic windows”), so I suspect that these later Mk V bodies were made from whatever bits were left over. These “Meccano Kit” bodies (both from Burlingham and other body-builders) tended to end up on low-volume chassis at the end of their production runs.
Neville Mercer
12/03/21 – 06:00
When I was doing my eight weeks “square bashing” at Hednesford in November – December 1954 any leisure travel was by Green Bus Service (Rugeley and Uttoxeter) Ltd, whose double deckers were allowed just inside the Camp to start at the guardroom – ex Birmingham Corporation Daimler CVGs were the normal vehicles – absolutely oozing vintage “character” and seemingly well maintained.
Chris Youhill
13/03/21 – 06:40
Very good to see you on OBP again Chris. Your comments are always informed and illuminating.
Blue Bus Services 1959 Daimler Freeline CD650H Burlingham Seagull C37F
The above photograph was given to me by the ex Blue Bus Inspector the late Ken Baker, when I worked for Derby Borough Transport, and was in charge of the Blue Bus operation at Willington, before the fire. He had no idea where it was taken, but he thought it was in the Derbyshire Peak District somewhere, where as I thought it was in Yorkshire. Perhaps somebody will be able to identify the location? 120 JRB was unusual for a 30ft – long coach in that it was only fitted with 37 seats, the usual maximum being 41. Contemporary reports state that it was fitted with translucent panelling which could be lifted for ventilation. It was also fitted with an air operated pre-selector gearbox, and it was reported that it could travel at 55mph.
This coach was the first vehicle to carry the “Wings” emblem in place of the “Blue Bus Services” fleet name. If anybody is interested I have a Blue Bus Services page on my website, which can be found at this link.
I hope someone comes up with the location of 120 JRB.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
19/12/11 – 11:06
Good picture, possibly taken in Wirksworth, Derbyshire.
Roger Broughton
19/12/11 – 14:21
You have set us a teaser as to where this is! The pale grey stone suggests that it is in the southern part of the Peak District- but where is/was there a Natwest Bank? Wirksworth doesn’t look right on Google Earth- goldish stone & brick- & has a big Natwest: this is/was a part time branch. I wondered about Youlgreave…..
Joe
19/12/11 – 17:19
Joe, Youlgeave (Pommy) hasn’t had a Natwest Bank, the stone is similar to both in fact all of the Peak District.
Roger Broughton
20/12/11 – 06:50
Well the few bits that I can add having worked for National Provincial and later National Westminster Bank are that the picture was taken after February 1971 and the size of the Branch would suggest that it was an “Agency” open one/two days per week. These were attached to and run by much larger Branches so that would seem to indicate that it is not too far from a large town or city. Oh that I had my old Sorting Code book because with a bit of work you could eliminate possibilities using Google Earth! Sadly, we always had to destroy them. I’ve just researched Pateley Bridge because the road layout at the top of the hill is similar but the Bank is Barclays and too far around the bend. So not much help but any old Yorkshire/Derbyshire Bankers out there might get closer.
Richard Leaman
20/12/11 – 06:51
A flash of inspiration suggested Bonsall. Have a look at Google maps. I think the picture was taken from an upstairs window of the Kings Head, looking down Yeoman Street. The end of the cottage in the distance is fairly distinctive.
Stephen Ford
20/12/11 – 09:29
Well done Stephen- it is indeed: Yeoman St Bonsall. The shops have been prettified into houses and the bank is no more but looks much the same. The pub car park, probably once some cottages, has been improved: in fact the whole place looks smarter. It is possible that the pic was taken from the memorial plinth, but it was probably higher. I’ll stick to my guns, though, Roger, on the stone: it was always noticeable that the stone changed going south from squarish often goldish stones to this pale grey rubbley stuff, often found around those tiny sheep fields/pens. Compare say Baslow with here.
Joe
20/12/11 – 10:21
I wonder were the coach is heading as the road out of Bonsal towards Brightgate is very narrow.
Roger Broughton
20/12/11 – 11:24
My guess would be that it was either a trip to view the well-dressings (July) or a pub visit at the end of an organised sightseeing tour. Roger is right, Bonsall was the end of the line for buses (and still is). At the time it was North Western territory with a fairly regular service from Matlock, nowadays G & J Holmes and an hourly service during the day on weekdays.
Stephen Ford
20/12/11 – 12:27
An amazing flash of inspiration, Stephen; I can’t fault it. Think of the chances that, from such a small group as us, someone would triumph! You shall have a gold star!
Chris Hebbron
20/12/11 – 14:24
O come on, Chris. There’s some shared brain power among us – and we’re probably all getting on a little bit now! Coming from the Peak District end of Sheffield, the whole PD is my (favoured) stomping ground. Now exiled in the south, Bonsall was a regular part of run out in the car I did when visiting aged (now dead) parents. I only ever went UP hill from Cromford and never had the perspective of this photo – looking down.
David Oldfield
21/12/11 – 07:21
While it’s true that there are some widely-travelled folk amongst us, it still surprises me how many questions thrown at the website are answered. I’ll compromise by awarding Stephen only a silver star, then – okay?
Chris Hebbron
21/12/11 – 07:22
I’ve played around on Streetview, and if you paste this link into your browser, you can see the scene as it is today when map loades drag and drop the little orange man to the Kings head at this Google maps link.
KC
21/12/11 – 08:56
Hy Hulley, now there’s a name from the Peak District, nearly had the variety of vehicles of Barton, some out of COF vehicles would be parked on open land opposite the garage in Baslow, now luxury flats are parked there ! The business is still operating as Hulley under the Woolicrofts ownership ex Silver Service of Darley Dale. In the 1978 Buses Annual there is a good article on Peak District operators from the 30’s.
Roger Broughton
21/12/11 – 08:57
Scrooge! I didn’t mean that Stephen didn’t deserve the Gold Star – I’ll reinstate it and take this opportunity to say Happy Christmas to ALL friends on this wonderful site.
David Oldfield
21/12/11 – 11:41
………and I’ll second that, a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year to all.
Chris Hebbron
21/12/11 – 12:03
That must have been one of the last Freelines built – also one of the last Daimler 10.6 litre engines. Wonder if Blue Bus managed to acquire a stock chassis at a knock down price for being a loyal Daimler customer? The steering wheel position in the Freeline always looks too high although presumably the drivers seat was similarly raised to achieve the required min 6″/max 10″ clearance between the top of the seat cushion and the underside of the steering wheel rim required by the Conditions of Fitness Regulations.
Ian Wild
21/12/11 – 13:50
When I said inspiration, I didn’t mean the miraculous sort (or sticking a pin in a map at random either)! I was just thinking of places I have visited that might fit, then checking them in Google. Roger mentioned Brightgate just to the north of Bonsall, and we have in fact camped in a very old static caravan at Brightgate farm a few times. Even in the prettified state that Joe referred to, Bonsall is a grey village and can look a bit dreary in anything less than brilliant sunshine. I think my inspiration was along the lines of “it looks grey enough to be Bonsall!”
Stephen Ford
21/12/11 – 14:55
Stephen, The Barley Mow on the Slaley Rd out of Bonsall is a very good watering hole which has recently changed hands, good beer and food.
Roger Broughton
22/12/11 – 06:32
It certainly wasn’t one of the last Freelines, I’m not sure when production officially ceased but Great Yarmouth took some in 1964 with ‘B’ registrations. It would have been, however, one of the very last Burlingham Seagull’s to the original design. By no means a unique combination and yes, all of them appeared to have very high steering wheel positions, what is not immediately apparent is that this one had three long panoramic windows on each side and one piece windscreens, not the horizontally divided opening type. I think Yelloway had some to this diagram also. Delivered in June 1959 only just in time for that years summer, I think that was the last season of this particular shape. If Blue Bus had waited till the following year, they could have had the Seagull 70 body, now that would have been a unique combination!
Chris Barker
22/12/11 – 06:33
With Streetview you can actually get a link for the exact view you want rather than the map. Here it is: //g.co/maps/gysy4 Hulleys are indeed still operating, but I’ll have to look up their history. I think the link with Wooliscroft/Silver Service was short-lived and they had to be rescued by someone else.
Peter Williamson
22/12/11 – 07:46
If what Chris says is true, then that would indeed make it the Seagull VII and 1959 was about as late as you could get. I know Hulley’s became independent of Wooliscroft but have no idea of the eventual (current) ownership. Some hazy reflection puts them back into the Hulley family but I could never swear to this.
David Oldfield
23/12/11 – 06:52
There is a history of Hulleys on their website //www.hulleys-of-baslow.co.uk/ which explains everything. The fleet now looks very smart in a dignified blue and cream livery which was originally inspired by second hand purchases from South Notts.
Peter Williamson
23/12/11 – 06:53
I am pretty sure the Great Yarmouth Freelines were the last, certainly for the home market. They were bought while Geoffrey Hilditch was the General Manager, a man who had very firm ideas on bus purchasing and as an engineer tended to go for high specification designs on the grounds they gave better pay-back in the long term. He took these principles to Halifax and then Leicester where he subsequently held the GM posts. It always seemed strange to me that while Daimler were very successful with their double deck designs, eg the CVG and the Fleetline, they were never as successful with single deckers. The Freeline was a well engineered chassis but on the heavy and expensive side at a time when the industry was moving to lighter weight and lower cost. The subsequent Roadliner seemed to be a disaster from the start.
Philip Halstead
23/12/11 – 06:55
Premier Travel and Valliant of Ealing were also customers for the Seagull Mk VII, amongst others. The first Mk VII, on Leyland Tiger Cub chassis, appeared at the 1958 Commercial Motor Show in Seagull Coaches of Blackpool livery, just like the original Seagull at the 1950 show. Several of the Valliant examples plus all four Yelloway examples ended up with Premier Travel, joining the one they bought new, which made Premier Travel the largest operator of the type. Burlingham’s offering for underfloor engined coaches in 1960 remained the Seagull Mk VII, the Seagull 70 only appearing for the 1961 season, ie a year later than the similarly styled Seagull 60 for forward engined chassis appeared.
Dave Williamson
23/12/11 – 12:15
I made several journeys in the Gt. Yarmouth Freelines in the early seventies when they were on hire to Eastern Counties and they were very pleasant vehicles to ride in – a sort of up market Bristol MW. I believe Yarmouth had a good line in hiring them to coach operators whose vehicles had broken down in the area.
Nigel Turner
24/12/11 – 06:46
The only time I ever saw the Great Yarmouth Freelines was at Huntingdon St Bus Station, Nottingham in the mid sixties. One would sometimes appear as a summer Saturday extra on Trent’s Great Yarmouth service. At this time, Trent often hired in Norfolk Motor Services coaches as required – presumably the Freeline was part of this arrangement?
Bob Gell
11/08/12 – 07:32
Belated update on 120 JRB (have only just discovered your site) – am most impressed by how quickly the location of this shot was nailed down, incidentally! Lovely image of what was – arguably – the final Daimler-engined Freeline (Burwell & District had the other such chassis that could make the same claim to fame). The lack of window-pillars made quite a visual difference, certainly in the flesh. Stephen asks if anyone knows the whereabouts of Dr 18: am guessing we know of her early years in preservation and subsequent re-emergence in a Barnsley scrapyard (what DID happen, though?) – since then, Dr 18 has covered quite a few miles, changing hands along the way several times, until (last I heard) she was in a barn near Uttoxeter with several other vehicles (so, not far from her Willington home) awaiting her turn for restoration. Somewhere, I have two or three colour shots of her in this location. If and when I find them, I’ll scan and submit. Would LOVE to meet up with Dr 18 again though, so if anyone has more recent info (I’m going back at least half-a-dozen years, via a contact)…
Clarence
13/10/15 – 06:20
Some 3 years on since the “turn” comment (11/08/12), the vehicle is still in the same shed in the same condition. Would feel that restoration really quite unlikely now.
Roger Burdett
07/12/15 – 06:15
Freeline 120 JRB is indeed located near Uttoxeter together with CD650 SRB 425 and is owned by Mr Andy Mould. It is indeed the only ‘complete’ surviving Freeline in GB and is well worthy of restoration. It is mechanically sound but does need a full body restoration. It is now unique.
Gerald Anthony
02/08/16 – 17:27
How nice to hear this coach has been preserved. The last I heard was that it was rotting in a scrapyard in the Bradford area. I was Youth Club Leader at Stretton Church during the 1960`s (Stretton being on the Blue Bus service route) We had a”Blackpool Trip” every year in September and would always ask for this coach known as “Daimler 18” because our coach enthusiasts liked the sound of the powerful Daimler engine and the hissing of the air operated clutch. I have a painting of 120 JRB standing outside Repton Church. I remember we paid less than £1 per person for the coach (out for 20 hours on a 240 mile round trip) and a ticket to see Cliff Richard in Blackpool plus a tour of the illuminations. We also asked for “Frank”. one of Blue Buses`s young drivers. Those were the days !!
Philip Whieldon
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
17/08/16 – 09:56
I was kind of hoping you might shed some light on the whole Seagull Mk7 history as I am the owner of Blue Bus Dr18 120 JRB I can find very little other history on this period of Burlinghams activity and just wondered how many ‘plastic pigs’ were built, the body panelled entirely in fibreglass providing all the outline with a straight framed body must have been a brave step and taken a lot of development, although far from their finest hour, having restored BMS 415 many years ago I can fully appreciate how good they could be and 120 JRB is far from that build quality even evident after many years. So I would be keen on know just how many were built I am aware of 999 EAE was 7 body numbers apart but I am told two of those numbers were allocated but never used. Any information would be gratefully received.
Andy Mould
18/08/16 – 06:48
Reference comment of Andy Mould 17/08/16. his restored coach BMS 415. Behind CFK 340 is BMS 415 returning from Manchester Museum 3rd of April 1982 location of photo is unknown any detail be gratefully accepted.
W Gash & Sons 1952 Daimler Freeline D650HS Burlingham C41C
After the posting of a W Gash & Sons T.I.M. ticket and the very interesting copy from Stephen Ford on the Old Bus Tickets website yesterday here is the Old Bus Photos contribution to the W Gash & Sons of Newark, Notts weekend.
It is a shot of one of the first two production D650HS Daimler Freelines that went to W Gash & Sons in 1952, who registered them NAL 782/3. They had Burlingham C41C Seagull bodies and remained with Gash until 1967, when they were apparently sold to Trent Concrete for staff transport. Seen here, in the summer of 1961 just departing Huntingdon Street Bus Station, Nottingham, is the second of the pair NAL 783 with Daimler CVD6/Massey KAL 580 in the background.
The very high driving position is clearly visible in this close up shot.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
01/01/12 – 07:17
What a wonderful sight to greet the New Year – low flying Seagulls! From personal experience I find the high driving position preferable. [At the time AEC had a high position but Leyland’s was almost uncomfortably low.]
David Oldfield
01/01/12 – 07:22
I visited Huntingdon Street last week and then seeing the shot above I thought an update may be of interest. Whilst the area formerly occupied by the bus station is still discernible, it is now completely covered by new buildings. The old bus station stands were in two parts which could perhaps have been described as southern half and northern half. The southern half is now completely built over with a multi-story apartment development (!) and the northern half is now occupied by a Staples office store. Surprisingly, the old factory type building seen in the background of many a Huntingdon Street Bus Station shot still survives. A pleasing note to record is that the rather nice art-deco style Barton garage is now in use again as a motor service centre after a long period of disuse and similar premises on the adjacent corner which I understand was once the garage of Robin Hood Coaches before being taken over by Barton are also back in use. The impressive Huntingdon House opposite the former bus station which were once Trent’s Nottingham office, booking office and chart room are still in use as specialist retail units. Like I have said before on other postings, a dead area now but visions of a wonderful former age can still be conjured up!
Chris Barker
01/01/12 – 13:55
They really did have high driving positions, didn’t they! A very evocative scene – was the sign ‘PLATFORM 4’ another way of saying ‘BAY 4’?
Chris Hebbron
01/01/12 – 19:11
If it’s 1952, does it have a quadrant change pre-select box?
David Oldfield
05/01/12 – 07:20
Alan Townsin’s book on postwar Daimlers states that the Freeline used “a CD650-style gate preselector”. A photo of a 1949 CD650 clearly shows that this is the same arrangement that was used on later CV models, with a horizontal lever on the left of the steering column, similar to the AEC Regent III. However, the book also states that the Freeline had a 5-speed gearbox, so presumably the detail of the gate would have been unique to that model.
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV1409 Burlingham C41C
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Halifax Coaches” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
The Northern General Transport Company 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Burlingham Seagull 70 C41F
On the subject of bus liveries that has been discussed on this site recently. Some operators seemed to adopt a one style fits all livery that hardly varied from one type of vehicle to another, and made little or no allowance for differences in body style or trim. This example from the NGT group is a rather sad looking AEC Burlingham Seagull that was once a rather attractive Wakefield’s coach number 251 based at Percy Main, the depot I worked at. Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of one of these in coach livery, but in common with most other Northern group coaches ‘except Sunderland & District’ it would have been predominantly cream with maroon window surrounds and skirt, I cant remember if the roof was cream or maroon, but they did look rather splendid. This one seems to have had some other changes made, the centre roof window above the windscreen has been removed or painted out, and the seats appear to have been changed as the originals would have been red and didn’t have grab rails fitted. Sunderland & District had some Leyland Tiger Cub’s with identical bodies and they ended up in bog standard stage carriage livery.
Most regulars know that I am both an AEC and a Burlingham man. Whilst it is self evident and accepted that the original Seagull was a classic, unlike many others, I quite like the 60/70 models – even if they were not quite up to scratch with the original. I never remember one of these in Manchester in the 70s but I only ever remember coaches in this livery, not the reversed cream version. Was the Tyne – Mersey service treated as a bus service for these purposes? This would still qualify as a quality livery by today’s standards. One fascinating piece of trivia is that individual NGT group fleets were either AEC, Leyland or Guy fleets. So no standard corporate ordering there then.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 06:46
David, you are not on your own. Whilst, undeniably the Burlingham Seagull was the ‘Creme de la Creme’ I also had a soft spot for the 60/70 series. My local operator Baddeley Bros. of Holmfirth had two original Seagulls on Royal Tiger chassis KWU 844 (1951) and LWY 653 (1953). They then had Bedford SBG/Burlingham RWY 277 in 1956, again still quite attractive. Then came four SB3’s in 1959 with the hugely curved windscreen Burlingham body (probably a coach version of the PA series Vauxhall Velox/Cresta cars of the period) Then in 1961 came Bedford SB1 2496 WY with the Burlingham 61 body. This body, I thought, suited the front engine Bedford better than the underfloor AEC/Leyland chassis. This coach was followed in 1962 by a Duple Gannet bodied SB5. Things were starting to slide Burlingham wise! All these coaches served me as school buses between 1965/70 so perhaps I’m looking through rose tinted glasses. I thought the 1959 petrol engined SB’s mundane, 2496 WY and it’s Gannet bodied sister 433 BWU, so-so but when we got the Royal Tigers with the classic Seagull body which was not that often, despite there age, that was the ‘Creme de la Creme’!
Eric
02/11/11 – 09:26
Couldn’t agree with you more, Eric. They were a superb coachbuilder but, towards the end, had more than their fare share of dogs – especially regarding design. Apart from the plastic roofs on Seagull 60s, I’m not aware of any considerable drop in quality and the Duple Continental and Firefly/Dragonfly were Burlinghams in everything but name and seemed to have a good reputation. I’m a Sheffielder, who had relatives in the Barnsley and Huddersfield areas, and always thought Baddeley Brothers looked quite classy. I was only really aware of them as a student in the early 70s, passing through on the X19. By that time, the principal vehicles were Bedford YRQ/Plaxton Panorama Elite Express grant vehicles. They still looked smart, though.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 15:04
David, Your mention of plastic roofs on the 60’s has jogged my memory. I remember the cloth trim on the interior ceiling of both 2496 WY and 433 BWU being quite badly stained by the ingress of water when they would probably be only about five years old. Baddeley’s also had a Duple Alpine Continental on a Leopard chassis 474 EWW. Of course the other sizeable coach operator in the Huddersfield area was Hanson’s who had two batches of Firefly’s on Ford chassis in 1963/4
Eric
03/11/11 – 06:27
Strange, isn’t it, how many operators had heavy (or medium) weight service buses and lightweight coaches? Hanson and Booth and Fisher (recently posted) had AECs and Ford coaches, York Pullman was AEC/Bedford, the Doncaster indis went down a similar road and this was replicated around the country. Firms like Baddeley Bros were less common, but by no means unique, with their mix of heavy and light weight coaches.
David Oldfield
03/11/11 – 17:46
Hanson’s was rather a complex fleet in the fifties. The coaches were a mix of Regal III and Reliances and Bedfords and the buses were AEC with a smattering of Albions. Between 1956 and 1966 most of the AEC’s went on to be rebuilt as buses. The Bedfords were kept anything from 2 to about 5 years and from about 1959 all new coaches were Fords right to the demise of the Hanson business in 1974. This change of allegiance is thought to have being something to do with Hanson Haulage buying large numbers of Ford lorries. Baddeley’s although being a smaller operator chose both Leyland and Bedford for new coaches in the fifties, many with Burlingham bodies, this policy continuing into the sixties. They also purchased quite a few secondhand coaches, including 2 that had been operated at one time or another with Hansons. Another feature of Baddeley’s was the hiring in for the summer season of coaches from local dealer Hughes and the Baddeley’s fleet name and number being applied. Several of these were in Wallace Arnold cream as the had be leased by WA for one or two seasons from Hughes when new. This led to Baddeley’s having quite an interesting and varied fleet. Wish I had owned a camera in those days.
Eric
04/11/11 – 07:04
I agree with you David. The last of what some would call ‘proper coaches’ to carry the Wakefields name were two Plaxton Embassy Bedfords ‘SB8’s I think’. The next Wakefields after that were Alexander ‘Y’ type DP’s on Leyland Leopard chassis, but I think that would have been a decision based on economics. Percy Main depot didn’t have any long distance or express routes, so the coach fleet was only used for private hires and excursions and most were de-Licensed at the end of Blackpool Illuminations, so apart from three double deckers the Wakefields name virtually disappeared from October until about Easter, where as the DP’s were used all year round and went onto stage carriage work in winter months. If memory serves, for the first couple of years some of them had the seats changed to ordinary bus type during the winter.
Ronnie Hoye
13/11/12 – 08:40
I remember going to the Lake District in the early 60s on one of these and it did indeed have the reversed coach livery the above is a later incarnation.
Malcolm Swaddle
18/04/13 – 17:40
Not in colour I’m afraid, but I’ve found this photo of one of EFT 551’s sisters in its original Wakefield’s livery. As I’ve said, Percy Main had four of these, EFT 550/3 – 250/3; and they remained in service as coaches until about 1970, they were then transferred to Northern and downgraded to D/P’s
Sheffield United Tours 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV Burlingham C37C
In connection with the article about “Burlingham’s flock of Seagulls” by Neville Mercer. I would like to contribute the above shots of my all-time favourite coach. They looked great and were a real joy to ride. SUT’s Seagulls took me on holiday to Skegness. I attach two views, nearside & offside of the 1957 batch. Not sure of the location of 269 but YWA 273 is seen loading in Pond Street, Sheffield. Additionally many had names of European places on SUTs trips, for example, 269 was Como and 273 was Interlaken. Both had worthwhile careers after SUT. The Seagull and SUT livery were made for each other. Photos purchased from RHG Simpson.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
10/06/12 – 11:48
I know Burlingham were eventually swallowed up by Duple, but did Duple have any influence on this update from the original Seagull? From this angle the rear end seems to be very similar to the Duple design of the early sixties which had a Butterfly or Crown shaped grill ‘I’ve heard it referred to as both’ Some may disagree, but I always thought the Seagull was better suited to an under floor engined chassis rather the the likes of a Bedford, but either way it was a timeless classic
Ronnie Hoye
10/06/12 – 18:00
Anyone who has been around this site for any time will know that I am an AEC, Burlingham and, as a Sheffielder, SUT fan. The rear end design, which changed in 1957, has always puzzled me, too. It is INDENTICAL to the rear end of the Duple Butterfly Vega. This was three or four years before the Duple takeover and I don’t think there was an official link before 1960 or 1961. [Where’s Neville Mercer when you need him?] SUT coaches differed within batches as to capacity (from 30 to 41) and in the case of the Burlinghams as to seat style. Some, the “Oyster” seats were standard high backed coach seats, but others (on touring coaches) had retractable heads for better vision. Later 36′ Plaxtons had only 44 widely spaced seats for touring and no headrests for similar reasons.
David Oldfield
11/06/12 – 08:43
I reckon these particular coaches were a comparative rarity. From the Seagull Mk. IV onwards most examples were front entranced with a subtly slightly more squared up front end to suit. It seems that on the few occasions when a centre-entrance was still specified the original more rounded profile of the classic Mk. I to III was retained. This is presumably a Mk. V because of the curved rear corner window arrangement. As recent discussion has pointed out, Plaxton also retained a more rounded front end on their centre-entrance models of the period, and even more so Duple on their later Brittanias.
John Stringer
11/06/12 – 14:21
In response to David Oldfield’s interesting observation on the similarity of the Seagull to the Duple Vega body of the era I submit a picture of TWJ 249 which was one of a batch (243-252) of C41C Duple Elizabethan bodied Reliances delivered to SUT in 1955. They were MU3RV The first of the Seagulls followed in 1956. Whilst the Elizabethan is not un-attractive, for me it does not please the eye so much as either the Seagull or the Duple Vega.
The earlier batch of Seagulls for Sheffield United Tours is represented here by VWE 260 delivered in 1956. The batch was 255-266 and they were AEC Reliance MU3RV (780-791). The Seagull bodies were C41C (255/6), C39C (257/8), C37C (259-264) and C30C (265/6).
The third, and final batch of AEC Reliance Burlingham Seagulls delivered to Sheffield United Tours is represented in this picture which, as before, was purchased from RHG Simpson and illustrates 3283 WB. These were again MU3RV (1529-34) and C41C. All of these went to Neath & Cardiff, and became “Brown Bombers” in 1966.
Les Dickinson
11/06/12 – 17:49
Fantastic collection, Les. Thank you for that. The Duple Elizabethan picture has a number of interesting points to it. Firstly, the Elizabethan morphed into the Roe Dalesman. [As a “Roe” man I would like to know how this happened. Did Roe buy the rights to it or did Duple buy the rights from ACV – or what?] In the background there is one of only two vehicles “bought” second-hand – as opposed to coming with the acquisition of a fleet. Two AEC Regal IV/Plaxton Venture II came from Altrincham Coachways in 1954 when less than twelve months old. Altrincham Coachways was a subsidiary of North Western Road Car – one third of the consortium that owned SUT (along with Yorkshire Traction and East Midland). “Bought” may, therefore be stretching it a bit. One was involved in an accident but the integrity of the body held up and impressed SUT engineers so much that it was responsible for them going to Plaxtons for the Panorama when Burlingham, their preferred builder, was unwilling to do so.
David Oldfield
12/06/12 – 06:52
SUT worked very closely with Plaxton on the design of the Panorama and I believe they had the first production model David. Also, the first 36′ coach on UK roads was SUT 326, 136AWJ, which was a Reliance 4U3RA I think. This was Plaxton Panorama C44F where the forerunners had been variously C36/40/41F. Many of the original ones had names which were prefixed Panorama. For example the first two,285 and 286, were Panorama Pilot and Panorama Pioneer respectively. SUT didn’t have any Roe Dalesman however Sheffield Corporation had one, 9000WB fleet number 900/90 which had a central doorway but was mostly used as a “committee” plaything I think.
Les Dickinson
12/06/12 – 06:53
Here I am! As far as I know there is no record of Burlingham purchasing parts or design rights for the “rear end” arrangement on the Seagull Mk V from Duple. Almost all external panels were made from sheet metal in Burlingham’s own workshops. Since the Seagull V was introduced two years after the first model of Duple Super Vega with a similar back-end one must suspect that a Burlingham designer was a fan of Hendon’s design. This kind of plagiarism (or is it “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”?) was quite common back in the 1950s with both Trans-United of Rochdale and Heaver of Durrington being well-known for their Burlingham clone designs. Heaver finally took it a step too far with their New Look design of 1952. This was around 90% Seagull and attracted letters from Burlingham’s solicitors. The model was rapidly discontinued. Hate to correct you, David, but North Western didn’t buy Altrincham Coachways until 1958. At the time it sold the coaches to SUT it was still owned by the Frank Ford organisation. Ford was in the habit of selling off relatively new coaches if the price was right, and then replacing them with older vehicles from elsewhere in his empire – Altrincham Coachways received hand-me-downs from Triumph of Hastings and Gardiner of Spennymoor to replace the majority of its own fleet in 1956-57. Then, after stripping the firm’s assets, he sold it to NWRCC.
Neville Mercer
12/06/12 – 06:53
That Duple Elizabethan has a front dash panel and grill the like of which I have never seen anywhere, never mind on a Duple Elizabethan, and it is not an improvement! In its natural form I think the Elizabethan was neater and more elegant than the Dalesman, with more continuity of level between the front bit and the main window line. I’ve never heard mention of any connection before – it just looks like mild plagiarism to me. According to BBF17, Altrincham Coachways did not become a North Western subsidiary until 1958, so a purchase in 1954 would have been exactly that.
Peter Williamson
12/06/12 – 08:59
I thought you maybe interested in a colour shot of 3283 WB.
John Stringer
12/06/12 – 09:53
Neville/Peter: I stand corrected. Interesting though. Is this the same Frank Ford who went to Plaxtons, fell out with them and went to Duple to produce the Dominant – a “not quite” Elite copy? Rumour is he then ran Duple into the ground and was the architect of their demise. [A re-run of his Altricham Coachways asset stripping?] The whole point, Les, was that SUT approached Burlingham who initially refused on practical grounds. They then went to Plaxtons, after their experience with the two Regals, who came up with the Panorama and sealed a long and happy relationship. Only NBC’s insistence on going to Duple in 1973 broke this relationship. Burlingham relented, too late, with the Seagull VII – but also proved their own point in that it was structurally suspect with every alternate pillar missing to provide panoramic windows. [Plaxtons used the same idea for the Panorama. Was it the straight window line that worked for Plaxtons and the curved line which did for Burlingham?] The naming of SUT coaches started with Ben Goodfellow calling the Windover Regal IVs the “Gay” class, after his daughter Gaynor. [Another North Western connection. NWRCC had taken over the Goodfellow business and Ben moved over to be General Manager of SUT.] I believe the Elizabethans became the Elizabethen class (how original) and the Burlinghams were the Continental class. It is also interesting to note the number of Burlinghams and early Panoramas used by SUT as experimental vehicles – trying out various types of air conditioning, air suspension and even turbo-chargers, long before these became accepted, standard fitments
Nice shot, John.
David Oldfield
12/06/12 – 11:39
Yes David, it’s the same Frank Ford, and I completely agree with your comments about his later career. For some reason he always reminded me of Freddie Laker, but I’d probably better not use the word “spiv”!
Neville Mercer
13/06/12 – 09:47
Aw, go on. There’s a picture somewhere of him giving a prize to Flight’s for their Bristol RELH6L/Plaxton at the coach rally. He just looks as you said.
David Oldfield
13/06/12 – 09:48
Some very interesting information there from Neville Mercer. The Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group site contains a section on Bus Adverts which has a picture of the Heaver design, to which I think Neville refers. It is registered PYA 578 and bears the name ‘Crown Tours’. I had wondered if it was a vehicle which ever existed or if it was simply a ‘doctored’ Burlingham photograph, such is the resemblance. I wonder if anyone has a picture of it which could be posted on here because, as Neville says, it is 90% Burlingham Seagull!
But a cheap imitation nonetheless – none of the subtlety of the original.
David Oldfield
14/06/12 – 18:19
Well, David, they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. However, imitations are seldom as good as the original, and having seen the picture I don’t think this is any exception.
Ronnie Hoye
17/06/12 – 09:09
Here is last month’s front view of Harper Bros., Staffs, No. 90, a rare combination of 1959 Guy LUF with Gardner 6HLW engine and Burlingham Seagull body
Chris Hebbron
17/06/12 – 16:14
Copyright Albert S. Bite
And now a rear view shot thanks to Albert S. Bite
Chris Hebbron
27/06/12 – 06:56
Regarding the two Regal IV’s purchased by SUT from Altrincham Coachways in February 1954 (RMB 158 & JBU 164). Both entered service with SUT still in the blue & cream of their previous owner but after around six months, the blue was repainted red leaving the rest cream. It was due to RMB 158 having a smash near the Cat & Fiddle on the way to Macclesfield that the company decided to approach Plaxtons with a view to building what was to become the Panorama. Burlingham was initially contacted by the company in 1957 but they turned down the idea. The Panorama was designed by the GM of SUT, Ben Goodfellow and his Chief Engineer, Ron Burgin. The Panorama name was submitted by an employee electrician at SUT by the name of John Otter who won £5 for his idea. Incidentally, SUT paid the sum of £3.980 each for RMB & JBU.
Trev Weckert
27/06/12 – 10:03
Good to welcome Mr Weckert to the forum. I have a copy of his excellent SUT book in the Venture/Prestige series.
David Oldfield
28/06/12 – 07:49
Many thanks for your kind words David. It has been mentioned that some although not all of SUT’s Seagull’s had air conditioning. To clarify this, the first delivered in 1956 (VWE255-258) had no such fitment whilst VWE 259-266 had Key Leather units fitted in a ‘pod’ on the roof which was powered by paraffin. The 1957 batch (YWA 267-278)and the 1958 ones (3279 WB-3284 WB had Webasto units mounted beneath the floor. Incidentally, 266 became the official transport of the Joe Loss Orchestra and bore the legend “In The Mood” whilst SUT had this contract. This was the second coach to undertake this duty, the first being a Windover Kingsway bodied Regal IV (RWE 228). Hope this is of some interest.
Trev Weckert
17/07/12 – 18:00
Trev Weckert mentions the “Joe Loss – In The Mood” vehicles. Herewith a picture of VWE 266 in that very mood. Note the clef symbol below the side-light This one was MU3RV 791, Burlingham 6086, normally C41C, but C30C whilst on this contract. This vehicle went to Murrellmills, Trafford Park in, or by 1967
Les Dickinson
26/10/12 – 07:00
I seem to have missed some of the later comments on this thread. I like the reference to the Joe Loss coach, and its clef symbol. One of my former colleagues was something of a musician in his spare time, being involved with a Bavarian-style band. His initials were PJG, which he always wrote as the clef.
Pete Davies
03/01/14 – 08:01
Interesting to read about SUT. I regularly travelled with them as a youngster. However they used to have a coach based on the Isle Of Man. Such was the size of their operation. I remember seeing it on Douglas promenade in the early sixties. I can’t remember what model it was but I believe it was an AEC. It also had an IOM registration.
Andrew T
03/01/14 – 09:52
Andrew, the IOM law at the time was that any vehicle so “outstationed” should have a local registration. Thus, each year, an SUT coach was re-registered for a stay on the IOM. It was only there for a season – less than a calendar year – and then returned home to Sheffield. It was not necessarily the same one in even consecutive years. Whether the same IOM mark was used I do not know. [Trevor Weckert, are you out there?]
David Oldfield
05/01/14 – 16:43
I have traced four SUT Reliances that carried Manx registrations: 1958 Burlingham 284 (3284 WB) carried “YMN 616” for the 2/59 to 04/62 seasons 1960 Plaxton 309 (6309 WJ) carried “5380 MN” for the 05/62 to 04/66 seasons 1961 Plaxton 321 (1321 WA) carried “69 FMN” for the 04/66 to 01/71 seasons 1970 Plaxton 409 (DWA 409H) carried “96XMN” for the 04/71 to 09/72 seasons
Dave Farrier
07/01/14 – 07:06
Slightly off topic, but related to registration plates. When I was at secondary school in Harrogate in the late ‘sixties, our brilliant art teacher Miss Daly had a beautiful ‘Old English White’ Morgan sports car. It had the customary black pressed alloy number plates with aluminium-coloured letters/numerals, which were noteworthy in having yellow-coloured surrounds front and rear. I later discovered this indicated that the vehicle was temporarily imported from abroad, which tied in nicely with our art teacher being from New Zealand. (From memory the car was registered in the HOX-E series). Probably a long shot, but I wonder if any PSV’s ever sported such plates.
Brendan Smith
07/01/14 – 13:38
Brendon, Temporary reg no’s were QA-QT
Roger Broughton
10/01/14 – 18:32
Thanks for the info regarding the Q-series registrations Roger. Although I knew of them, probably from I-Spy books, I had obviously misunderstood the information I had read in my youth relating to yellow number plate surrounds, and wrongly linked the two. All these years I have been under the mis-apprehension that the white Morgan was a temporary import. Following further research on t’interweb, it transpires that between 1963 and 1972, vehicles purchased in the UK for subsequent export were given number plates with yellow edging (which was changed to red in 1973), indicating that purchase tax (or later, VAT) had not been paid. Fortunately this still ties in nicely with said Morgan, as Miss Daly left the school in 1968, presumably to return to New Zealand with her fine sports car. I hold my wrist out for a firm slap Roger, comforted by the fact that this website continues to contribute so admirably to lifelong learning.
Brendan Smith
20/01/14 – 08:08
Although the Kingsways of SUT were the first ‘official’ named coaches in the fleet, a number of unofficial namings took place. Half cab Regals from the KWA batch received the following KWA 707 Yorkshire Lad, KWA 712 Highland Monarch, KWA 717 Torquay Queen, KWA 721 Bournemouth Belle. KWA 723 was the first Sheffield Wednesday coach in the fleet. Originally it had a football mounted above the cab. A number of Kingsways had Thermotank forced air systems from new. Incidentally some of the VWE regd Seagull had air conditioning by Key-Leather mounted in a pod on the roof powered by Paraffin.
Trev Weckert
20/01/14 – 11:59
What did I start here?? What a great post this turned out to be, with some wonderful comments and information from a wide range of knowledgeable people. Thanks Trev for this latest comment which confirmed to me that I was a tad less mad than I thought I was. I always thought that I had either seen, or seen a picture of, KWA 712 as “The Yorkshire Lad” when I was just that. I have never been able to find any such confirmation in print. I, for one, am never too old to learn something new and today’s lesson came courtesy of Mr. Weckert!
Les Dickinson
27/01/14 – 15:55
Hi Les, Just to put things straight, it was KWA 707 that wore Yorkshire Lad and it also bore a Tam O Shanta transfer on the bonnet side. In the early fifties a number of coaches were borrowed from Northern Roadways in Glasgow and upon return by SUT staff (including Jack Hancock and Jim Heenan) it was noted that their coaches had this transfer on them. The management was asked if they could spare a couple. Upon return to Sheffield, transfers were affixed to bonnets of KWA 706/707.
Trev Weckert
31/01/14 – 15:44
I have your book from the Library at present. As a boy I used to go & look at the SUT garage to marvel at the coaches & their destinations. You did a great job Trev.
Andy Fisher
01/09/17 – 05:57
Regarding the 1st Montreaux Coach Rally. I was always told that my Father Walter Fothergill was the driver who drove the SUT coach that won this rally.
Edward Fothergill
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
14/01/20 – 16:14
This picture of an SUT Seagull brings back happy memories. I attended St Wilfrids school between 1963 and 1968. Our original school bus which was owned by the school and driven by the caretaker Mr O’Toole, was a green Chesterfield lowdecker. This had four abreast seating upstairs on the left side and a sunken trough on the right side. At some point this was replaced by a Seagull which still bore the SUT livery. I remember it being very luxurious when compared to every other bus I’d seen previously. It would start collecting pupils on Shoreham Street, up Wolsley Rd, then up Abbeydale Rd to Millhouses Lane. I’d catch it outside Abbeydale Cinema. Anybody have any idea which registration it carried. Sadly, driver had eyesight problems, and the bus languished in it’s parking spot till disposal.
M Stevenson
19/01/20 – 06:18
Reliance 264 (VWE 264) passed to St Wilfred’s Roman Catholic School, Sheffield in 1965, then to Trevor Ward and Son Limited, Kirkburton in 10/1970, being withdrawn in 10/1971. Probably had more legroom in its C37C format, compared to Ribble’s GCK-registered Royal Tigers which were C41C.
Premier Travel (Cambridge) 1959 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Burlingham Seagull C41F
The final Mk. VII incarnation of the classic Burlingham Seagull coach body is generally considered by most to be something of a travesty, compared to the earlier versions. With its squared off side panel and slight nod towards tail fins – becoming popular at the time on cars – and longer and fewer side windows attempting to vie with Plaxton’s first Panoramas, it just didn’t work and soon afterwards a complete redesign resulted in the introduction of the Seagull 70 which seemed to some degree to be inspired by the ‘new classic’ – the Harrington Cavalier. 85 UME had been new to Valliant of London W5 in 1959 but had later passed with others to Premier Travel, along with similar examples from Yelloway, joining a further one which Premier had bought new and resulting in probably the largest number of Mk. VII’s in any one fleet. It is seen here on an enthusiasts’ tour in 1971.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
30/06/16 – 06:38
John, I agree absolutely with your comments about this final version of the classic Seagull design but strangely the angle of the photograph in your posting makes this one look really rather nice. I’m intrigued though, about those dividing strips in the side windows, it seems very odd to have panoramic windows and then divide them into smaller panes.
Chris Barker
30/06/16 – 08:05
The Seagull never seemed to look right without the centre sliding door. It was fundamental to the original design and the later front entrance versions always seemed to me to be something of a ‘lash-up’.
Philip Halstead
01/07/16 – 06:14
I’ve never seen a picture of this one when it was new, but I suspect that the window dividers were a later addition. Quite a few of the Seagull Mk VII bodies needed remedial work as Burlingham’s designers had been rather optimistic about the load-bearing strength of the original window pillars! As far as I know this was never a problem with the Plaxton Panorama of the late 1950s (or any of its successors), but the problem did re-occur at the Blackpool factory – by then Duple (Northern) – in the 1960s with the original Viceroy. Several of those rolled on to their backs resulting in window pillar collapse and crushed passengers.
Neville Mercer
01/07/16 – 06:15
The stenghtheners between the window pillars seem to run inside the glazing, and my guess is they were put in at recertification as the Mk VII had a reputation for flexibility…
Stephen Allcroft
01/07/16 – 06:16
Strangely, despite editing the photo for submission, I’d failed to notice those dividing strips. I’m going to have to search for a photo showing it (or similar ones) with Valliant to see if they were built like that, or whether it was a Premier Travel modification. I agree, Philip, that the original centre-entrance version was by far the the best looking, but I think the front-entrance Mk.IV’s and V’s still looked pretty decent too. I think the worst looking Seagulls were the Mk.VI with flat windscreens and little bus-type windows (though they were undoubtedly a more practical proposition from Ribble’s point of view), and the downright ugly 1959 season model for the Bedford SB.
John Stringer
01/07/16 – 16:18
Setting aside the possible involvement of the Safety Elf or his predecessors, could it be that the centre-door version was more “coach” as used by one’s local holiday tours firm, and the front/forward entrance one was more “express bus” as used by North Western, Ribble, etc?
Pete Davies
04/07/16 – 15:58
Here is a picture of 86 UME without the strengthening in the middle of the windows (at least on the offside): www.sct61.org.uk/
For me the classic Burlingham Seagull remains as stylish and attractive as it did when I saw my first Sheffield United Tours examples. This one, Reliance MU3RV294, Burlingham 5855, was new to Anderton of Keighley in January 1955 and was snapped by John C Gillham at the Clacton Coach Rally.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
24/04/17 – 07:20
The design and appearance of the Seagull can, I think, be justifiably be described as immortal.
Chris Youhill
25/04/17 – 07:21
Shaped a bit like a teardrop… but more refined….
Mike..009
27/04/17 – 14:56
OWT 940 was sold to Victoria Coaches of Wakefield and was exported to Malta in 1970, probably as a chassis only. It received a coach body built by Debono and was in the coach fleet as registration number 2573 by December 1970, later being re-registered to Y-0871. By July 1987 it had been downgraded to bus work as Y-0767 as B45F, losing its glass rooflights and gaining green livery. It later received yellow bus livery and was re-registered to FBY 767. In this form it worked until 2011, when the interesting Malta Bus fleet was swept away in the name of progress. Thus it worked hard until it was 56 years old, a tribute to AEC.
Dave Farrier
28/04/17 – 17:16
At one time the Maltese route bus vehicles only worked on alternate days, so perhaps this lovely old lady has a semi-retirement in the sun.
David Wragg
04/05/17 – 06:40
I was very interested to see the photo of the Anderton’s AEC. I grew up in Anderton’s home town (Keighley) and they were a well-known local coach business, always smartly turned out in pale blue and cream. I obviously wasn’t observant enough, because I don’t recall this vehicle. Anderton’s seemed to trade in at regular intervals, usually purchasing lighter modern coaches such as the Vega, etc. Sadly they sold out, I think in the early 80s, to Bowen’s and they were closed down.
Please can you help me to identify this coach. The photo has some clues: 1. Birmingham registered 2. Operated by Flights of Birmingham 3. Hired to Aston Villa Football Club The double decker behind might suggest some soccer activity in the making. Perhaps World Cup 1966?
Peter Smith
08/05/15 – 08:49
The coach mentioned is presently in private preservation in West Yorkshire – see Classic Connections.org.uk website.
[Administrator note: The link to the Classic Connections website is no longer active. 18 August 2024]
Chris Youhill
08/05/15 – 17:37
The picture is much too late for the 1966 World Cup. The double-decker behind is a Leyland PD2 or PD3 in the colours of Guide Friday, and this firm was not in existence back then. I don’t know when it started, but my hunch is that it would be the 1980s. If, as Chris says, this coach is now preserved, then this picture shows it in preservation, but the Guide Friday bus could be in active service or in preservation itself – maybe others will know. City Sightseeing (started 1998/99) took over Guide Friday in 2002.
Michael Hampton
09/05/15 – 07:06
Something from the back of my memory brings to mind that Guide Friday operated some ex Leicester City Transport Leyland PD3A deckers possibly containing registrations in one of the ‘JF’ series issued by Leicester. In its formative days Guide Friday began in Stratford-upon-Avon and I wonder if the photo was taken at their Stratford premises.
David Slater
09/05/15 – 07:07
This picture above was taken in the Aston Manor Museum in Witton – the Old Tram Sheds that were – the Museum has moved but the Seagull remains in their custody/care.
As a point of interest the Coach has been modelled by Gorgi as a limited edition (2200 produced) catalogue No OM 40301.
Nigel Edwards
10/05/15 – 07:17
The ex-Leicester open topper is 264 ERY. This was Guide Friday’s first bus and ran from 1978 until 2000. It is now preserved.
Dave Farrier
10/05/15 – 07:18
Veering a bit off-piste, the open-top decker parked alongside appears to be the ex_Leicester PD3 264 ERY, still in active preservation as part of the Leicester Transport Heritage Trust fleet, and it was active at the recent LTHT/GCR event at Quorn station. see https://ltht.org.uk/264-ery/ The location in the picture looks to me like the old Aston Manor site.
Rob Hancock
12/05/15 – 06:54
The picture showing the Burlingham centre entrance coach, registration TOB 377, was new to Flights of Birmingham. WM TOB 377 AEC Reliance MU3RV 793 Burlingham 5928 C37C New 3/56 and may have been rebodied by Burlingham in 1958. Flights coaches was a well known coach operator from Birmingham in their cream with black livery, which became Flights-Hallmark in 2005. Flights liked to have registration numbers ending with lucky number 7. A list of vehicles can be found at www.buslistsontheweb and search owner flight.
Ron Mesure
31/05/15 – 07:05
Further to my comments earlier this month, I have found a website on the history and restoration of TOB 377 which was bought back by Flights for preservation in 1996 after a long life in Norfolk. Its football reference is valid as it claims it to have been the team coach for Aston Villa in 1957 for the Wembley Cup Final, beating Manchester United 2-1. This can be found on “classicconnections.org” under the fleetlist heading. It does seem to have been rebodied, new in 3/56 with body Burlingham Seagull Mk2 C37C body number 5928 on AEC Reliance MU3RV 793 and now is listed with body number 6569? This was new on Wallace Arnold 8340 U with a different styled Burlingham Seagull Mk3 C41F bodywork on Leyland PSUC1/2, (see flickr photos 8340 U to compare styles) can a change of body be verified as 8340 U is still current preserved with Tom Goodwin of Carlton?
