We are travelling in style today on a rather nice coach or as when I was a young lad I would always say “are we going on a chara” more than likely originates from charabanc. The Yorkshire dialect as a tendency to shorten words and does not use a new word if the old one will suffice. Did you have a word other than coach for coach, and whilst we are at it, have you a different word for a bus, I had a friend from Oldham Lancashire who called a bus a “buzz”, let me know along with your area, leave a comment. Anyway that’s enough of that back to the Ribble, the “Seagull” body was very popular for the period not surprising really they did look rather sleek at the time. Ribble also had the Mk 2 version of the “Seagull” built 1953/4 but they had centre entrances. I have a photo of a 1957 Yorkshire Traction “Seagull” I think it is a Mk 2.
An uncle of mine, a native of St Helens, always referred to a coach as a SALOON.
Pete Davies
Which was correct as the replacement for the charabanc was the Saloon – or all weather – Coach.
David Oldfield
The bodywork on this is actually of the Mk. 6 version of the Seagull, easily distinguished by the side glazing which is set in “window pans” after the fashion of Burlingham’s service bus body of the time. Very few of this design were built apart from the Ribble batch, but Harper Bros of Heath Hayes had some on Guy Arab LUF chassis. One of these at least is preserved. I have just written an article on the various breeds of Seagull which I will be sending to the website as soon as I can get round to typing it!
Neville Mercer
When working for Ribble at Carlisle depot in 1964 I was detailed to take over a Tiger Cub/Seagull identical to this one at Carlisle when it arrived from Manchester en route to Glasgow. With 4 speed (I think) gearbox and 2 speed axle they were lovely machines to drive even up the A 74 trunk road which was little better than a glorified country lane in those days. Although I remember well the large fleet of Austin 5 ton tippers belonging to a Carlisle scrap merchant hauling rock on the construction site when the section from Telford Bridge to Beattock Summit was being converted to dual lane.
Gerald Walker
29/01/12 – 07:25
Southdown buses and coaches were always referred to as cars for many years even into NBC days. I totally agree with Gerald Walker about the Tiger Cub with 4 speed box and 2 speed axle they had a lively performance and light controls and excellent brakes, the secret was to master the 2 speed axle and use it properly. Ours were fitted with Weymann Fanfare bodies which were solidly built and comfortable. I have to say light controls and brakes were not at that time a common trait with Leylands.
Diesel Dave
29/01/12 – 16:27
Saloons/Cars, as hangovers from the past, bring to mind older conductors, even in the early 60’s, still saying, when the inside was full, “Plenty of room outside” from open-top days.
Chris Hebbron
29/06/13 – 15:20
I started my apprenticeship at Frenchwood body shop which we shared with the body builders in 1962 and worked on most bus numbers 1200s, 1300s, 1400s, 1500s, and 1600s with 1700s just about starting the overhaul on the bus bodies, one instance whist cleaning the boot of a Seagull coach some one closed the doors, and with using cellulose thinners after 15 mins I was drunk as a lord, light headed and later, with a bad head, but I left in 1964 and went to Atkinson vehicles to finish my time, in the service department and was there for 12 years.
James Lynch
23/11/13 – 07:51
One of these worked out of Whiteleas for George Wimpey Contractor in the 60s and 70s, it was a former Ribble coach and had reg LCK ???
If you go back to a previous posting at this link you will be able to compare the difference between this “Yorkshire Traction Seagull” bodywork and the “Ribble Seagull” . The main difference that strikes me is the Horizontal split windscreen and slightly different lighting arrangement. Is this a Mk 2 or Mk 3? Maybe they are both Mk 3s and in the one year age gap improvements to the screen were made. If you know, let me know, leave a comment.
06/03/13 – 16:46
This Seagull is a Mark V. This was available with either front or central entrance and replaced the central entrance Mark III and forward entrance Mark IV. The distinguishing feature of the Mark V from the models it replaced was the single piece rear windscreen with rear quarter lights. The Mark V was produced for the 1957 and 1958 seasons. The windscreen arrangement was optional on the Mark IV, V and VI, either single piece flat screens or horizontally split. For example, Ribble had Mark IV and Mark VI Seagulls with flat screens, whilst North Western, Trent, Wallace Arnold and Yelloway (at least) had Mark V Seagulls with flat screens.
I don’t claim to be more expert than anyone else but I am a huge fan of Burlingham and regard them as one the very best coachbuilders ever. Mark/Series numbers are a bit of a mystery since they were extremely small variations between certain types – and a new number for each. This is putting 2 and 2 together and getting into the making 5 territory, but I think I can piece most of the Mark numbers together from what little evidence I have.
Mark I – The original centre entrance Seagull on heavyweight chassis such as an AEC Regal IV and Leyland Royal Tiger.
Mark II – Basically the same centre entrance body on a medium weight chassis such as an AEC Reliance and Leyland Tiger Cub. The earlier Ribble Motor Services 1953/4 Leyland Tiger Cub Seagulls Fleet numbers 926/945 FCK 426/440 & FRN 675/679 are certainly of this mark.
Mark ? – Forward entrance/lightweight chassis such as Bedford (SBG/SBO) and the Commer Avenger was this the Mark III
Mark IV – Front entrance body on medium weight chassis such as an AEC Reliance and Leyland Tiger Cub.
Mark ?
Mark VI – Front entrance interim style with radiused (bus?) window panes. The later Ribble Motor Services 1956/8 Leyland Tiger Cub Seagulls Fleet numbers 977/1018 LCK 889/732 I think are of this mark
Mark VII – Final full coach version (similar to Mark IV but with Duple rear end screens)
I believe new numbers were given for the slightest variation. That being said, what was the Mark III and could the missing Mark V have anything to do with the Ford 570E when it was finally introduced? If you know the differences between the Marks or if you can through a little light on any of the above please leave a comment.
Copy by David Oldfield photograph by Paul Haywood
The Mark numbers you refer to are the ones which were used for Seagull bodies on underfloor engined chassis. The Mk2 differed from the Mk1 in having a doubled chrome “tank shape” moulding beneath the window line. The Mk3 (introduced in 1953) reverted to a single chrome moulding and had a slightly restyled rear end. The Mk4 offered the alternative of a front entrance (all previous Seagulls had been centre entrance) and also had the option of a front dome destination blind box. The Mk5 replaced the Mk3 in 1955 and differed from it in offering a choice of front or centre entrance. It also featured flat one-piece glass panels in the front windscreen as opposed to the two-piece, slightly curved units previously fitted. The Mk6, as you correctly state, differed from the Mk5 in having its side windows fitted into radiused (and slightly recessed) window pans for ease of maintenance. The variant was built at the request of Ribble Motor Services and there were few other customers. The final “heavyweight” Seagull in this sequence was the Mk7, introduced in 1958 and featuring much longer side windows than previous models. This was in response to Plaxton’s introduction of the trendsetting Panorama design, but the Burlingham model proved less popular than they might have hoped. As a result it was replaced in 1960 by the Seagull 70 with its pseudo-American styling, and this was used by Scottish Omnibuses, East Midland, Trent, and other operators although only in penny numbers. Lightweight chassis such as Bedford SBs were given a design of bodywork which mimicked the then current Seagull design, but as far as I know the body never had an official name although many (including some Burlingham employees) referred to it as “the Baby Seagull”. The final, rather ugly version of this body made its appearance in 1959 and was the butt of so many unfavourable comments that it lasted just a single year. In 1960 it was replaced by the Seagull 60, similar in styling to the previously mentioned Seagull 70 for heavyweight chassis. It sold well, but operators soon discovered that the slightly raised “clerestory roof”, made of see-through plexiglass, was prone to leakage. The design was relaunched the following year, with the leakage problem solved, as the Seagull 61 which featured far too much front-end chromework for most tastes. The last two new Burlingham-badged designs emerged in 1962. The Seagull 62 was barely distinguishable from its immediate predecessor, but coach operators were offered an alternative, the curiously named Burlingham Gannet which featured a restyled front end and more glasswork. Both models sold poorly and from 1963 onwards were replaced by the Duple (Northern) Firefly.
Neville Mercer
19/09/12 – 07:11
Ribble Motor Services FRN 679 mentioned in Mark II above was definitely a Royal Tiger rather than a Cub. I used to travel to school in it and always liked to sit at the front as the view was superb. Comfy seats too. Any idea where it went?
David
29/09/12 – 12:35
The small batch of coaches featured in Paul’s photo, 8338 – 8343 U, were indeed splendid vehicles but with “minor” limitations of which the Company seemed blissfully unaware. I can speak from bitter experience, having operated the Yorkshire – Torquay/Paignton night service with them. The passengers all seemed to equip themselves with enough enormous luggage to suffice for emigration to the Southern Hemisphere – and it was the very devil to stow it all in the shallowish boot of the “Seagulls.” The return journey (non stop for we drivers) was scheduled at around thirty hours and, due to the lack of motorways/by-passes, we were always very late back into Leeds on Saturday nights – the Tiger Cubs and the top speed limit for coaches meant that there was no chance of achieving the timetable – it was not a pleasant assignment at all in those days. That’s in no way a criticism of the Tiger Cubs or of the Seagulls – simply wildly over optimistic and unrealistic scheduling by the Company.
North Western Road Car 1957 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2T Burlingham C41F
Awhile ago the above photo was sent to me with the following comment.
I wondered if this picture of a North Western coach taken on the A5085 Blackpool Road, Lea, Preston heading towards/away from Blackpool (see comments) would interest you? My dad (Jack Smith) was a Police Sergeant and is driving the Lancashire Constabulary MGA in the picture. I think it would be 1962.
Well you don’t have to ask twice when there is a Seagull in the shot, especially one in full flight. I don’t think the coach was the purpose of the shot maybe it was taken from another MGA police car. I am not certain of the Mark number of the Seagull but researching through Neville Mercers great article ‘Burlingham’s flock of Seagulls’ I’m going plum for a Mark 5 with the optional roof box display. The reasons are, the year, a one piece windscreen (no horizontal crossbar) and slim side window pillars, I think I will soon find out if I am wrong.
Photograph and Part Copy contributed by John Smith
01/04/12 – 09:22
Yes, it’s a Mark Five – numbers of this batch also served in blue and cream with NWRCC subsidiaries Melba Motors and Altrincham Coachways. North Western’s earlier flock of Seagulls (with FDB registrations) were Mark Fours and some of these also passed to Melba.
Neville Mercer
02/04/12 – 07:27
I don’t think it’s heading towards Blackpool though. Quite apart from the fact that it says Manchester on the blind, this appears to be the spot, looking towards Blackpool, which means the coach is heading towards Manchester. //g.co/maps/t3dq2
Peter Williamson
12/04/12 – 06:05
It looks like the location is Blackpool Road (A5085) approaching the Pedders Lane junction at Ashton, Preston. The two bungalows behind the vehicle are the giveaway.
Mike
29/06/15 – 06:53
This is before the last bus stop before the traffic lights at Lea, the police station is opposite, we used to live in the first bungalow. Happy times
R Cooper
02/04/22 – 05:43
Thanks for all the information in the comments! I had to laugh that in my message to the group (when I sent the photo), that I queried if the destination was Blackpool or Manchester! Maybe I was thinking the conductor hadn’t changed it from Blackpool for the return journey.
Gore’s of Southport 1951 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15 Burlingham Seagull C37C new – C41C ??/??
Gore’s Coaches was the trading name of the Southport & Birkdale Motor and Carriage Co. Ltd. of Southport. I was quite taken aback to come across this late survivor of the Royal Tiger/Burlingham Seagull marque in such fine fettle outside Liverpool Lime Street Railway Station, whilst on an enthusiasts’ visit to Birkenhead and Wallasey on 13th June 1971. This one deserved to have survived into preservation – I wonder what became of it ?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
17/02/13 – 07:34
Super picture and beautiful vehicle – doesn’t look twenty years old, more like twenty months.
David Oldfield
17/02/13 – 13:31
Very nice, John! Thanks for posting. Reading Corporation (I see you don’t list any from that fleet yet, Peter) had assorted single deckers, even into the RE era, with the Burlingham trademark on the front. Flattery gets you everywhere!
Pete Davies
17/02/13 – 17:31
Any Burlingham will do for me – apart from the hideous flying pig (c1959) on Bedford/Ford chassis!
David Oldfield
18/02/13 – 11:00
It would be a hard job to make one of these look bad, but no doubt some of todays ‘Corporate Image Experts’ would have a good try.
Ronnie Hoye
18/02/13 – 12:08
Yes Ronnie, but imagine one in National white – that would be bad enough!
Thank you, Alan, but Roger’s views (good as they are) don’t appear in the column to the left, so a newcomer to the site may not know there are any of this operator without a closer study. I’ve found a few to submit for consideration and will fire them off to our Editor in the course of the next few weeks.
Pete Davies
19/02/13 – 15:23
Very true, David, the National all white reminded me of the factory finish commercial vehicles were delivered in prior to painting. It’s not so much all one colour that’s the problem, choice of colour could make all the difference on what were very similar vehicles. Take a Plaxton body for example, National all white? drab and anonymous, Glenton on the other hand were quietly restrained and dignified.
Ronnie Hoye
19/02/13 – 15:23
PSVC gives this coach as withdrawn by Gore’s in 11/72, with no further owner recorded. Evidently reseated to C41C at some time prior to this photo, but recorded as C37C, as given above, when new.
David Williamson
22/09/14 – 14:37
I am not a bus or coach driver, just a casual visitor to this site, but it occurred to me that there is a serious front overhang on the coach above. Did it not make it difficult to drive? I once drove a 3 ton truck on a one off 20 mile trip. That gave me the sensation of being slightly drunk. I would have thought that you would have felt completely plastered, driving the above!
Martin Robinson
28/10/14 – 16:52
There is a Burlingham Seagull advertised on eBay at the moment. //www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201202508209?clk_rvr_id=721251652239 I don’t know how accurate the listing is. It says 1958 Bedford SB8 Classic Vintage Coach yet further down it says it has a Leyland 350 engine. Did they put Leyland engines in the Bedford chassis?
John Lomas
29/10/14 – 06:59
They did fit Leyland engines, John, but I doubt the Leyland 0.350 is original. I don’t think the SB13 (with 0.350) was available in 1958 – more likely an SB8 (with 0.330). The 0.350 was probably a retrofit. 1958 was actually very close to the end of SBO and introduction of SB5 and SB8. I’m not expert enough in this part of Bedford’s history to be sure of dates – I only know the specifications. The SBG morphed into the classic SB3 (300 Bedford petrol), the SBO became the SB5 (330 Bedford diesel) and the SB8 (0.330 Leyland diesel) was an addition to the range. I believe the SB13 (0.350 Leyland diesel) eventually replaced the SB8 but everything was outlasted by the SB5 which continued (albeit with a new, indecipherable code) until the bitter end in 1985.
David Oldfield
29/10/14 – 06:59
Yes, Bedford SB8 and SB13 models had Leyland engines.
David Hick
29/10/14 – 15:56
Forgot to mention the rare SB1 with 300 Bedford diesel engine.
David Oldfield
29/10/14 – 15:56
The Bedford dealer, Arlington, had begun offering conversions of the ‘Big Bedford’ S-type goods chassis with the Leyland O350 (5.76 litre) engine from as early as 1952. Bedford themselves began to offer a Perkins R6 (5.56 litre) diesel option in both that model and the SBO coach chassis from 1953. In 1957 Bedford introduced their own 330 (4.92 litre) diesel engine to replace the troublesome R6, resulting in the SB1. At the same time they began to offer the Leyland O350 officially as an option, resulting in the SB8. In 1961 they replaced their own 300 diesel with the increased capacity 330 (5.42 litres), resulting in the SB5. By 1962 Leyland had replaced the O350 and its larger bore equivalent the O375 (not used by Bedford) with the revised O370 (6.05 litre) and O400 (6.54 litre) units respectively. The O370 went into the SB as the SB13, and the O400 into the twin-steer VAL, and later the VAM as well as various goods models.
John Stringer
29/10/14 – 17:04
….. and of course Leyland then produced their own version of the SB13 – the Albion Victor VT41L, with the O.370. Those who ran them held them in high regard but, like many models, they were a little late on the market and only lasted about three seasons before the VAM/R192 style lightweights took over from the traditional SB style motor for independents.
David Oldfield
05/08/18 – 07:45
I have just come across the messages sent four years ago concerning Bedford coaches fitted with a Leyland engine & I would just like to vouch how good that combination was. When Bedford deleted the option to specify a Leyland power unit in 1967/8 ie the Leyland O400 in the four wheeler VAM14 & “Chinese Six” VAL14 in favour of their own 466 engine to me it was a retrogressive step. The Bedford 466 engine was originally developed for the introduction of the KM lorry in 1966. The 466 was not a bad engine, but not a patch on a Leyland unit especially VALs. With this disservice by Bedfords a good number of coach firms move onto the Leyland (& indeed Perkins) powered Bristol LH & its longer brother, the LHL.
Andrew Spriggs
07/08/18 – 06:03
Andrew. I think most people – and certainly most operators – agree that the VAL14 and VAM14, because of their 0.400 engines, were better than the VAL70 and VAM70, with the Bedford 466. The Ford R series began to catch up with Bedfords and, possibly overtake them (literally) from this time on. Bedford’s heyday was really from the OB through to the SB3.
David Oldfield
09/08/18 – 07:18
Yes I agree with you David, as the Ford R series really gave Bedford a run for their money especially with the turbo engine & six speed gearbox on Fords. In the later years of Glenway Coaches, Fords served the company well,drivers only complaints were the turbo would cut out for no reason & a sloppy gearbox (having to fish for gears). Fords would fly along on the flat on the motorway, get to a gradient & then old AEC Reliances would fly past in the middle lane leaving the modern Ford standing. Going back to the original thread of Leyland Royal Tigers (bit before my time), the only one I recall was a 1952 model that had been rebodied in the mid 60s with a Plaxton Panorama body, my friend drove that one, he liked it apart from heavy steering & not too good brakes.
Whieldons (The Green Bus Co. Ltd) 1958 Guy LUF Burlingham Seagull C37F
From the beginning of November 1973 Whieldons t/a The Green Bus Service was taken over by the National Bus Co with Midland Red continuing much of the network although three Uttoxeter services passed to PMT o/w the Potteries Motor Services. Mr C J Whieldon had commenced bus operation in May 1927. By chance, I had a few rides in the spring of 1972 by catching an early Saturday journey out of Rugeley for Uttoxeter via Drointon returning direct via Abbotts Bromley. I still have a faded Setright ticket which might have been a return. The latter service was always a newish Seddon Pennine IV bus which continued on to Cannock but the Drointon service was an older coach no doubt as it wandered the country lanes. On one occasion I caught a Ford 570E with Duple Yeoman body i.e. it looked and sounded like a Bedford SB with a seat next to the driver. Once I enjoyed a ride on 500 URF, a Guy LUF with Burlingham Seagull coachwork which the company had bought new in 1958. The first passenger boarded somewhere in the lanes and the opportunity was taken for a photograph.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton
24/06/16 – 05:58
Oh dear, Keith; the mention of the excellent Guy Arab LUF in the same paragraph as the Seddon Pennine IV illustrates the decline of Green Bus from the sublime to the ridiculous. The Pennine IV was an abomination. Guy offered an underfloor engined chassis, initially the Arab UF, and then from 1953, the the lighter LUF, between 1950 and 1959, after which date the manufacturer chose to place all its eggs in the one ill fated basket called the Wulfrunian. It is rather curious that the Tilling group depended heavily upon Gardner engined underfloor engined chassis, yet the BET, municipal and independent sectors had limited choices of Gardner powered UF models. Atkinson, Daimler and Guy all produced Gardner engined underfloor chassis, but orders were never large. Daimler offered epicyclic transmission as standard, which was an option with Guy, but otherwise the gearbox in Atkinson and Guy models was of the constant mesh variety. The decidedly heavy Daimler Freeline was additionally suspect by virtue of its high pressure hydraulics until an air pressure variant became available. North Western Road Car sought to recreate Bristol simplicity and reliability in the rugged Atkinson chassis, but the heavy hand of BET central control stopped this project in its tracks, and Atkinson never really made much of an impression thereafter. Guy were generally more successful, but the real problem lay in the availability of the AEC Reliance, which, with its light steering and excellent synchromesh gearbox, was a driver’s dream. Even when the shortcomings of the AEC wet liner engines began to emerge, the sales scenario did not alter materially, though Leyland picked up customers with the introduction of the Leopard. I have often wondered if the availability of a decent synchromesh gearbox to the smaller makers might have influenced the situation in their favour. Perhaps the ideal would have been a Gardner powered Reliance. One is surely allowed to dream!
Roger Cox
27/06/16 – 05:53
I get the impression that BET’s central purchasing policy was more about bulk discounts, and cost generally, than anything else. Guys were almost certainly more expensive than Leylands and AECs, and the company might not have been able to handle the quantities required to allow bulk discounts.
Peter Williamson
29/06/16 – 06:11
Perhaps it’s just the angles of the photo, or maybe 500 URF was simply way past her best by then, but this might just about be the ugliest and most downtrodden Seagull I have ever seen. Were the glorious, beautiful Seagull bodies different for each type of chassis ?
Stuart C
29/06/16 – 16:11
I am not a Seagull expert but this I believe is the later version with the front entrance body and I believe has a higher waist line. IMHO the best derivative was the centre entrance version on the 8ft wide chassis as on Tiger Cubs and some Reliances. I also had a soft spot for the Ribble/Standerwick domed versions as they looked like a purposeful express coach.
Roger Burdett
29/06/16 – 16:12
This is a very late example of a Seagull Mk V body, but incorporates many non-standard features, most notably the straight moulding at skirt panel level. Burlingham had already moved on to the Mk VI (with window pans as supplied to Ribble and others) and the Mk VII (with “panoramic windows”), so I suspect that these later Mk V bodies were made from whatever bits were left over. These “Meccano Kit” bodies (both from Burlingham and other body-builders) tended to end up on low-volume chassis at the end of their production runs.
Neville Mercer
12/03/21 – 06:00
When I was doing my eight weeks “square bashing” at Hednesford in November – December 1954 any leisure travel was by Green Bus Service (Rugeley and Uttoxeter) Ltd, whose double deckers were allowed just inside the Camp to start at the guardroom – ex Birmingham Corporation Daimler CVGs were the normal vehicles – absolutely oozing vintage “character” and seemingly well maintained.
Chris Youhill
13/03/21 – 06:40
Very good to see you on OBP again Chris. Your comments are always informed and illuminating.
Blue Bus Services 1959 Daimler Freeline CD650H Burlingham Seagull C37F
The above photograph was given to me by the ex Blue Bus Inspector the late Ken Baker, when I worked for Derby Borough Transport, and was in charge of the Blue Bus operation at Willington, before the fire. He had no idea where it was taken, but he thought it was in the Derbyshire Peak District somewhere, where as I thought it was in Yorkshire. Perhaps somebody will be able to identify the location? 120 JRB was unusual for a 30ft – long coach in that it was only fitted with 37 seats, the usual maximum being 41. Contemporary reports state that it was fitted with translucent panelling which could be lifted for ventilation. It was also fitted with an air operated pre-selector gearbox, and it was reported that it could travel at 55mph.
This coach was the first vehicle to carry the “Wings” emblem in place of the “Blue Bus Services” fleet name. If anybody is interested I have a Blue Bus Services page on my website, which can be found at this link.
I hope someone comes up with the location of 120 JRB.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
19/12/11 – 11:06
Good picture, possibly taken in Wirksworth, Derbyshire.
Roger Broughton
19/12/11 – 14:21
You have set us a teaser as to where this is! The pale grey stone suggests that it is in the southern part of the Peak District- but where is/was there a Natwest Bank? Wirksworth doesn’t look right on Google Earth- goldish stone & brick- & has a big Natwest: this is/was a part time branch. I wondered about Youlgreave…..
Joe
19/12/11 – 17:19
Joe, Youlgeave (Pommy) hasn’t had a Natwest Bank, the stone is similar to both in fact all of the Peak District.
Roger Broughton
20/12/11 – 06:50
Well the few bits that I can add having worked for National Provincial and later National Westminster Bank are that the picture was taken after February 1971 and the size of the Branch would suggest that it was an “Agency” open one/two days per week. These were attached to and run by much larger Branches so that would seem to indicate that it is not too far from a large town or city. Oh that I had my old Sorting Code book because with a bit of work you could eliminate possibilities using Google Earth! Sadly, we always had to destroy them. I’ve just researched Pateley Bridge because the road layout at the top of the hill is similar but the Bank is Barclays and too far around the bend. So not much help but any old Yorkshire/Derbyshire Bankers out there might get closer.
Richard Leaman
20/12/11 – 06:51
A flash of inspiration suggested Bonsall. Have a look at Google maps. I think the picture was taken from an upstairs window of the Kings Head, looking down Yeoman Street. The end of the cottage in the distance is fairly distinctive.
Stephen Ford
20/12/11 – 09:29
Well done Stephen- it is indeed: Yeoman St Bonsall. The shops have been prettified into houses and the bank is no more but looks much the same. The pub car park, probably once some cottages, has been improved: in fact the whole place looks smarter. It is possible that the pic was taken from the memorial plinth, but it was probably higher. I’ll stick to my guns, though, Roger, on the stone: it was always noticeable that the stone changed going south from squarish often goldish stones to this pale grey rubbley stuff, often found around those tiny sheep fields/pens. Compare say Baslow with here.
Joe
20/12/11 – 10:21
I wonder were the coach is heading as the road out of Bonsal towards Brightgate is very narrow.
Roger Broughton
20/12/11 – 11:24
My guess would be that it was either a trip to view the well-dressings (July) or a pub visit at the end of an organised sightseeing tour. Roger is right, Bonsall was the end of the line for buses (and still is). At the time it was North Western territory with a fairly regular service from Matlock, nowadays G & J Holmes and an hourly service during the day on weekdays.
Stephen Ford
20/12/11 – 12:27
An amazing flash of inspiration, Stephen; I can’t fault it. Think of the chances that, from such a small group as us, someone would triumph! You shall have a gold star!
Chris Hebbron
20/12/11 – 14:24
O come on, Chris. There’s some shared brain power among us – and we’re probably all getting on a little bit now! Coming from the Peak District end of Sheffield, the whole PD is my (favoured) stomping ground. Now exiled in the south, Bonsall was a regular part of run out in the car I did when visiting aged (now dead) parents. I only ever went UP hill from Cromford and never had the perspective of this photo – looking down.
David Oldfield
21/12/11 – 07:21
While it’s true that there are some widely-travelled folk amongst us, it still surprises me how many questions thrown at the website are answered. I’ll compromise by awarding Stephen only a silver star, then – okay?
Chris Hebbron
21/12/11 – 07:22
I’ve played around on Streetview, and if you paste this link into your browser, you can see the scene as it is today when map loades drag and drop the little orange man to the Kings head at this Google maps link.
KC
21/12/11 – 08:56
Hy Hulley, now there’s a name from the Peak District, nearly had the variety of vehicles of Barton, some out of COF vehicles would be parked on open land opposite the garage in Baslow, now luxury flats are parked there ! The business is still operating as Hulley under the Woolicrofts ownership ex Silver Service of Darley Dale. In the 1978 Buses Annual there is a good article on Peak District operators from the 30’s.
Roger Broughton
21/12/11 – 08:57
Scrooge! I didn’t mean that Stephen didn’t deserve the Gold Star – I’ll reinstate it and take this opportunity to say Happy Christmas to ALL friends on this wonderful site.
David Oldfield
21/12/11 – 11:41
………and I’ll second that, a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year to all.
Chris Hebbron
21/12/11 – 12:03
That must have been one of the last Freelines built – also one of the last Daimler 10.6 litre engines. Wonder if Blue Bus managed to acquire a stock chassis at a knock down price for being a loyal Daimler customer? The steering wheel position in the Freeline always looks too high although presumably the drivers seat was similarly raised to achieve the required min 6″/max 10″ clearance between the top of the seat cushion and the underside of the steering wheel rim required by the Conditions of Fitness Regulations.
Ian Wild
21/12/11 – 13:50
When I said inspiration, I didn’t mean the miraculous sort (or sticking a pin in a map at random either)! I was just thinking of places I have visited that might fit, then checking them in Google. Roger mentioned Brightgate just to the north of Bonsall, and we have in fact camped in a very old static caravan at Brightgate farm a few times. Even in the prettified state that Joe referred to, Bonsall is a grey village and can look a bit dreary in anything less than brilliant sunshine. I think my inspiration was along the lines of “it looks grey enough to be Bonsall!”
Stephen Ford
21/12/11 – 14:55
Stephen, The Barley Mow on the Slaley Rd out of Bonsall is a very good watering hole which has recently changed hands, good beer and food.
Roger Broughton
22/12/11 – 06:32
It certainly wasn’t one of the last Freelines, I’m not sure when production officially ceased but Great Yarmouth took some in 1964 with ‘B’ registrations. It would have been, however, one of the very last Burlingham Seagull’s to the original design. By no means a unique combination and yes, all of them appeared to have very high steering wheel positions, what is not immediately apparent is that this one had three long panoramic windows on each side and one piece windscreens, not the horizontally divided opening type. I think Yelloway had some to this diagram also. Delivered in June 1959 only just in time for that years summer, I think that was the last season of this particular shape. If Blue Bus had waited till the following year, they could have had the Seagull 70 body, now that would have been a unique combination!
Chris Barker
22/12/11 – 06:33
With Streetview you can actually get a link for the exact view you want rather than the map. Here it is: //g.co/maps/gysy4 Hulleys are indeed still operating, but I’ll have to look up their history. I think the link with Wooliscroft/Silver Service was short-lived and they had to be rescued by someone else.
Peter Williamson
22/12/11 – 07:46
If what Chris says is true, then that would indeed make it the Seagull VII and 1959 was about as late as you could get. I know Hulley’s became independent of Wooliscroft but have no idea of the eventual (current) ownership. Some hazy reflection puts them back into the Hulley family but I could never swear to this.
David Oldfield
23/12/11 – 06:52
There is a history of Hulleys on their website //www.hulleys-of-baslow.co.uk/ which explains everything. The fleet now looks very smart in a dignified blue and cream livery which was originally inspired by second hand purchases from South Notts.
Peter Williamson
23/12/11 – 06:53
I am pretty sure the Great Yarmouth Freelines were the last, certainly for the home market. They were bought while Geoffrey Hilditch was the General Manager, a man who had very firm ideas on bus purchasing and as an engineer tended to go for high specification designs on the grounds they gave better pay-back in the long term. He took these principles to Halifax and then Leicester where he subsequently held the GM posts. It always seemed strange to me that while Daimler were very successful with their double deck designs, eg the CVG and the Fleetline, they were never as successful with single deckers. The Freeline was a well engineered chassis but on the heavy and expensive side at a time when the industry was moving to lighter weight and lower cost. The subsequent Roadliner seemed to be a disaster from the start.
Philip Halstead
23/12/11 – 06:55
Premier Travel and Valliant of Ealing were also customers for the Seagull Mk VII, amongst others. The first Mk VII, on Leyland Tiger Cub chassis, appeared at the 1958 Commercial Motor Show in Seagull Coaches of Blackpool livery, just like the original Seagull at the 1950 show. Several of the Valliant examples plus all four Yelloway examples ended up with Premier Travel, joining the one they bought new, which made Premier Travel the largest operator of the type. Burlingham’s offering for underfloor engined coaches in 1960 remained the Seagull Mk VII, the Seagull 70 only appearing for the 1961 season, ie a year later than the similarly styled Seagull 60 for forward engined chassis appeared.
Dave Williamson
23/12/11 – 12:15
I made several journeys in the Gt. Yarmouth Freelines in the early seventies when they were on hire to Eastern Counties and they were very pleasant vehicles to ride in – a sort of up market Bristol MW. I believe Yarmouth had a good line in hiring them to coach operators whose vehicles had broken down in the area.
Nigel Turner
24/12/11 – 06:46
The only time I ever saw the Great Yarmouth Freelines was at Huntingdon St Bus Station, Nottingham in the mid sixties. One would sometimes appear as a summer Saturday extra on Trent’s Great Yarmouth service. At this time, Trent often hired in Norfolk Motor Services coaches as required – presumably the Freeline was part of this arrangement?
Bob Gell
11/08/12 – 07:32
Belated update on 120 JRB (have only just discovered your site) – am most impressed by how quickly the location of this shot was nailed down, incidentally! Lovely image of what was – arguably – the final Daimler-engined Freeline (Burwell & District had the other such chassis that could make the same claim to fame). The lack of window-pillars made quite a visual difference, certainly in the flesh. Stephen asks if anyone knows the whereabouts of Dr 18: am guessing we know of her early years in preservation and subsequent re-emergence in a Barnsley scrapyard (what DID happen, though?) – since then, Dr 18 has covered quite a few miles, changing hands along the way several times, until (last I heard) she was in a barn near Uttoxeter with several other vehicles (so, not far from her Willington home) awaiting her turn for restoration. Somewhere, I have two or three colour shots of her in this location. If and when I find them, I’ll scan and submit. Would LOVE to meet up with Dr 18 again though, so if anyone has more recent info (I’m going back at least half-a-dozen years, via a contact)…
Clarence
13/10/15 – 06:20
Some 3 years on since the “turn” comment (11/08/12), the vehicle is still in the same shed in the same condition. Would feel that restoration really quite unlikely now.
Roger Burdett
07/12/15 – 06:15
Freeline 120 JRB is indeed located near Uttoxeter together with CD650 SRB 425 and is owned by Mr Andy Mould. It is indeed the only ‘complete’ surviving Freeline in GB and is well worthy of restoration. It is mechanically sound but does need a full body restoration. It is now unique.
Gerald Anthony
02/08/16 – 17:27
How nice to hear this coach has been preserved. The last I heard was that it was rotting in a scrapyard in the Bradford area. I was Youth Club Leader at Stretton Church during the 1960`s (Stretton being on the Blue Bus service route) We had a”Blackpool Trip” every year in September and would always ask for this coach known as “Daimler 18” because our coach enthusiasts liked the sound of the powerful Daimler engine and the hissing of the air operated clutch. I have a painting of 120 JRB standing outside Repton Church. I remember we paid less than £1 per person for the coach (out for 20 hours on a 240 mile round trip) and a ticket to see Cliff Richard in Blackpool plus a tour of the illuminations. We also asked for “Frank”. one of Blue Buses`s young drivers. Those were the days !!
Philip Whieldon
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
17/08/16 – 09:56
I was kind of hoping you might shed some light on the whole Seagull Mk7 history as I am the owner of Blue Bus Dr18 120 JRB I can find very little other history on this period of Burlinghams activity and just wondered how many ‘plastic pigs’ were built, the body panelled entirely in fibreglass providing all the outline with a straight framed body must have been a brave step and taken a lot of development, although far from their finest hour, having restored BMS 415 many years ago I can fully appreciate how good they could be and 120 JRB is far from that build quality even evident after many years. So I would be keen on know just how many were built I am aware of 999 EAE was 7 body numbers apart but I am told two of those numbers were allocated but never used. Any information would be gratefully received.
Andy Mould
18/08/16 – 06:48
Reference comment of Andy Mould 17/08/16. his restored coach BMS 415. Behind CFK 340 is BMS 415 returning from Manchester Museum 3rd of April 1982 location of photo is unknown any detail be gratefully accepted.
W Gash & Sons 1952 Daimler Freeline D650HS Burlingham C41C
After the posting of a W Gash & Sons T.I.M. ticket and the very interesting copy from Stephen Ford on the Old Bus Tickets website yesterday here is the Old Bus Photos contribution to the W Gash & Sons of Newark, Notts weekend.
It is a shot of one of the first two production D650HS Daimler Freelines that went to W Gash & Sons in 1952, who registered them NAL 782/3. They had Burlingham C41C Seagull bodies and remained with Gash until 1967, when they were apparently sold to Trent Concrete for staff transport. Seen here, in the summer of 1961 just departing Huntingdon Street Bus Station, Nottingham, is the second of the pair NAL 783 with Daimler CVD6/Massey KAL 580 in the background.
The very high driving position is clearly visible in this close up shot.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
01/01/12 – 07:17
What a wonderful sight to greet the New Year – low flying Seagulls! From personal experience I find the high driving position preferable. [At the time AEC had a high position but Leyland’s was almost uncomfortably low.]
David Oldfield
01/01/12 – 07:22
I visited Huntingdon Street last week and then seeing the shot above I thought an update may be of interest. Whilst the area formerly occupied by the bus station is still discernible, it is now completely covered by new buildings. The old bus station stands were in two parts which could perhaps have been described as southern half and northern half. The southern half is now completely built over with a multi-story apartment development (!) and the northern half is now occupied by a Staples office store. Surprisingly, the old factory type building seen in the background of many a Huntingdon Street Bus Station shot still survives. A pleasing note to record is that the rather nice art-deco style Barton garage is now in use again as a motor service centre after a long period of disuse and similar premises on the adjacent corner which I understand was once the garage of Robin Hood Coaches before being taken over by Barton are also back in use. The impressive Huntingdon House opposite the former bus station which were once Trent’s Nottingham office, booking office and chart room are still in use as specialist retail units. Like I have said before on other postings, a dead area now but visions of a wonderful former age can still be conjured up!
Chris Barker
01/01/12 – 13:55
They really did have high driving positions, didn’t they! A very evocative scene – was the sign ‘PLATFORM 4’ another way of saying ‘BAY 4’?
Chris Hebbron
01/01/12 – 19:11
If it’s 1952, does it have a quadrant change pre-select box?
David Oldfield
05/01/12 – 07:20
Alan Townsin’s book on postwar Daimlers states that the Freeline used “a CD650-style gate preselector”. A photo of a 1949 CD650 clearly shows that this is the same arrangement that was used on later CV models, with a horizontal lever on the left of the steering column, similar to the AEC Regent III. However, the book also states that the Freeline had a 5-speed gearbox, so presumably the detail of the gate would have been unique to that model.
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV1409 Burlingham C41C
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Halifax Coaches” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
The Northern General Transport Company 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Burlingham Seagull 70 C41F
On the subject of bus liveries that has been discussed on this site recently. Some operators seemed to adopt a one style fits all livery that hardly varied from one type of vehicle to another, and made little or no allowance for differences in body style or trim. This example from the NGT group is a rather sad looking AEC Burlingham Seagull that was once a rather attractive Wakefield’s coach number 251 based at Percy Main, the depot I worked at. Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of one of these in coach livery, but in common with most other Northern group coaches ‘except Sunderland & District’ it would have been predominantly cream with maroon window surrounds and skirt, I cant remember if the roof was cream or maroon, but they did look rather splendid. This one seems to have had some other changes made, the centre roof window above the windscreen has been removed or painted out, and the seats appear to have been changed as the originals would have been red and didn’t have grab rails fitted. Sunderland & District had some Leyland Tiger Cub’s with identical bodies and they ended up in bog standard stage carriage livery.
Most regulars know that I am both an AEC and a Burlingham man. Whilst it is self evident and accepted that the original Seagull was a classic, unlike many others, I quite like the 60/70 models – even if they were not quite up to scratch with the original. I never remember one of these in Manchester in the 70s but I only ever remember coaches in this livery, not the reversed cream version. Was the Tyne – Mersey service treated as a bus service for these purposes? This would still qualify as a quality livery by today’s standards. One fascinating piece of trivia is that individual NGT group fleets were either AEC, Leyland or Guy fleets. So no standard corporate ordering there then.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 06:46
David, you are not on your own. Whilst, undeniably the Burlingham Seagull was the ‘Creme de la Creme’ I also had a soft spot for the 60/70 series. My local operator Baddeley Bros. of Holmfirth had two original Seagulls on Royal Tiger chassis KWU 844 (1951) and LWY 653 (1953). They then had Bedford SBG/Burlingham RWY 277 in 1956, again still quite attractive. Then came four SB3’s in 1959 with the hugely curved windscreen Burlingham body (probably a coach version of the PA series Vauxhall Velox/Cresta cars of the period) Then in 1961 came Bedford SB1 2496 WY with the Burlingham 61 body. This body, I thought, suited the front engine Bedford better than the underfloor AEC/Leyland chassis. This coach was followed in 1962 by a Duple Gannet bodied SB5. Things were starting to slide Burlingham wise! All these coaches served me as school buses between 1965/70 so perhaps I’m looking through rose tinted glasses. I thought the 1959 petrol engined SB’s mundane, 2496 WY and it’s Gannet bodied sister 433 BWU, so-so but when we got the Royal Tigers with the classic Seagull body which was not that often, despite there age, that was the ‘Creme de la Creme’!
Eric
02/11/11 – 09:26
Couldn’t agree with you more, Eric. They were a superb coachbuilder but, towards the end, had more than their fare share of dogs – especially regarding design. Apart from the plastic roofs on Seagull 60s, I’m not aware of any considerable drop in quality and the Duple Continental and Firefly/Dragonfly were Burlinghams in everything but name and seemed to have a good reputation. I’m a Sheffielder, who had relatives in the Barnsley and Huddersfield areas, and always thought Baddeley Brothers looked quite classy. I was only really aware of them as a student in the early 70s, passing through on the X19. By that time, the principal vehicles were Bedford YRQ/Plaxton Panorama Elite Express grant vehicles. They still looked smart, though.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 15:04
David, Your mention of plastic roofs on the 60’s has jogged my memory. I remember the cloth trim on the interior ceiling of both 2496 WY and 433 BWU being quite badly stained by the ingress of water when they would probably be only about five years old. Baddeley’s also had a Duple Alpine Continental on a Leopard chassis 474 EWW. Of course the other sizeable coach operator in the Huddersfield area was Hanson’s who had two batches of Firefly’s on Ford chassis in 1963/4
Eric
03/11/11 – 06:27
Strange, isn’t it, how many operators had heavy (or medium) weight service buses and lightweight coaches? Hanson and Booth and Fisher (recently posted) had AECs and Ford coaches, York Pullman was AEC/Bedford, the Doncaster indis went down a similar road and this was replicated around the country. Firms like Baddeley Bros were less common, but by no means unique, with their mix of heavy and light weight coaches.
David Oldfield
03/11/11 – 17:46
Hanson’s was rather a complex fleet in the fifties. The coaches were a mix of Regal III and Reliances and Bedfords and the buses were AEC with a smattering of Albions. Between 1956 and 1966 most of the AEC’s went on to be rebuilt as buses. The Bedfords were kept anything from 2 to about 5 years and from about 1959 all new coaches were Fords right to the demise of the Hanson business in 1974. This change of allegiance is thought to have being something to do with Hanson Haulage buying large numbers of Ford lorries. Baddeley’s although being a smaller operator chose both Leyland and Bedford for new coaches in the fifties, many with Burlingham bodies, this policy continuing into the sixties. They also purchased quite a few secondhand coaches, including 2 that had been operated at one time or another with Hansons. Another feature of Baddeley’s was the hiring in for the summer season of coaches from local dealer Hughes and the Baddeley’s fleet name and number being applied. Several of these were in Wallace Arnold cream as the had be leased by WA for one or two seasons from Hughes when new. This led to Baddeley’s having quite an interesting and varied fleet. Wish I had owned a camera in those days.
Eric
04/11/11 – 07:04
I agree with you David. The last of what some would call ‘proper coaches’ to carry the Wakefields name were two Plaxton Embassy Bedfords ‘SB8’s I think’. The next Wakefields after that were Alexander ‘Y’ type DP’s on Leyland Leopard chassis, but I think that would have been a decision based on economics. Percy Main depot didn’t have any long distance or express routes, so the coach fleet was only used for private hires and excursions and most were de-Licensed at the end of Blackpool Illuminations, so apart from three double deckers the Wakefields name virtually disappeared from October until about Easter, where as the DP’s were used all year round and went onto stage carriage work in winter months. If memory serves, for the first couple of years some of them had the seats changed to ordinary bus type during the winter.
Ronnie Hoye
13/11/12 – 08:40
I remember going to the Lake District in the early 60s on one of these and it did indeed have the reversed coach livery the above is a later incarnation.
Malcolm Swaddle
18/04/13 – 17:40
Not in colour I’m afraid, but I’ve found this photo of one of EFT 551’s sisters in its original Wakefield’s livery. As I’ve said, Percy Main had four of these, EFT 550/3 – 250/3; and they remained in service as coaches until about 1970, they were then transferred to Northern and downgraded to D/P’s
