South Yorkshire Motors 1947 Albion Valkyrie CX13 Burlingham C33F
GWT 630 is a former South Yorkshire Albion Valkyrie CX13 of 1947 vintage, though some sources say that it entered service in 1948. It is pictured on the HCVC Brighton Rally in 1971, but after a change of ownership, it subsequently underwent a complete restoration in 2009. The Burlingham coach body seats 33 passengers. This was the first post war coach bought by South Yorkshire (a devotee of the Albion marque), but it is thought that it covered a relatively low mileage in South Yorkshire service, the heavy sliding door being unpopular with lady conductors on stage carriage work. The 17ft 7ins wheelbase Valkyrie CX model was introduced by the manufacturer at the 1937 Commercial Motor Show, and was originally offered in three versions – CX 9 (6.1 litre 85 bhp 4 cylinder petrol), CX11 (Gardner 5LW) and CX13 (9.1 litre 120 bhp 6 cylinder petrol, or Gardner 6LW). Production stopped during the war but restarted in 1945 with the emphasis being on diesel power (Albion changed from indirect to direct injection in 1937), though the petrol options remained. The post war Valkyrie was offered as the CX9 with 6.6 litre four cylinder oil engine (Albion always eschewed the use of the word “diesel”), the CX13 now being fitted with the EN242, the oil version of the 9.1 litre six cylinder developing 105 bhp. A four speed constant mesh gearbox in unit with the engine was standard. The CX9 continued to be available until 1950, but the CX13 was replaced on the home market in 1948 by the fundamentally similar Valiant CX39 which had the more powerful 120 bhp EN243B 9.9 litre engine employed in the Venturer CX37 double decker. All Valkyrie and Valiant production ended in 1950, and Leyland took over the Scotstoun firm in the following year.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
22/11/17 – 07:41
Interesting photo and stuff, Roger, thx. Somehow, the whole look of the vehicle is somewhat spoilt by the rather small and therefore out of proportion radiator. Pre-war chassis were better in this respect and if there was a large sun across it as well, so much the better!
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV1409 Burlingham C41C
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Halifax Coaches” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
The Northern General Transport Company 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Burlingham Seagull 70 C41F
On the subject of bus liveries that has been discussed on this site recently. Some operators seemed to adopt a one style fits all livery that hardly varied from one type of vehicle to another, and made little or no allowance for differences in body style or trim. This example from the NGT group is a rather sad looking AEC Burlingham Seagull that was once a rather attractive Wakefield’s coach number 251 based at Percy Main, the depot I worked at. Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of one of these in coach livery, but in common with most other Northern group coaches ‘except Sunderland & District’ it would have been predominantly cream with maroon window surrounds and skirt, I cant remember if the roof was cream or maroon, but they did look rather splendid. This one seems to have had some other changes made, the centre roof window above the windscreen has been removed or painted out, and the seats appear to have been changed as the originals would have been red and didn’t have grab rails fitted. Sunderland & District had some Leyland Tiger Cub’s with identical bodies and they ended up in bog standard stage carriage livery.
Most regulars know that I am both an AEC and a Burlingham man. Whilst it is self evident and accepted that the original Seagull was a classic, unlike many others, I quite like the 60/70 models – even if they were not quite up to scratch with the original. I never remember one of these in Manchester in the 70s but I only ever remember coaches in this livery, not the reversed cream version. Was the Tyne – Mersey service treated as a bus service for these purposes? This would still qualify as a quality livery by today’s standards. One fascinating piece of trivia is that individual NGT group fleets were either AEC, Leyland or Guy fleets. So no standard corporate ordering there then.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 06:46
David, you are not on your own. Whilst, undeniably the Burlingham Seagull was the ‘Creme de la Creme’ I also had a soft spot for the 60/70 series. My local operator Baddeley Bros. of Holmfirth had two original Seagulls on Royal Tiger chassis KWU 844 (1951) and LWY 653 (1953). They then had Bedford SBG/Burlingham RWY 277 in 1956, again still quite attractive. Then came four SB3’s in 1959 with the hugely curved windscreen Burlingham body (probably a coach version of the PA series Vauxhall Velox/Cresta cars of the period) Then in 1961 came Bedford SB1 2496 WY with the Burlingham 61 body. This body, I thought, suited the front engine Bedford better than the underfloor AEC/Leyland chassis. This coach was followed in 1962 by a Duple Gannet bodied SB5. Things were starting to slide Burlingham wise! All these coaches served me as school buses between 1965/70 so perhaps I’m looking through rose tinted glasses. I thought the 1959 petrol engined SB’s mundane, 2496 WY and it’s Gannet bodied sister 433 BWU, so-so but when we got the Royal Tigers with the classic Seagull body which was not that often, despite there age, that was the ‘Creme de la Creme’!
Eric
02/11/11 – 09:26
Couldn’t agree with you more, Eric. They were a superb coachbuilder but, towards the end, had more than their fare share of dogs – especially regarding design. Apart from the plastic roofs on Seagull 60s, I’m not aware of any considerable drop in quality and the Duple Continental and Firefly/Dragonfly were Burlinghams in everything but name and seemed to have a good reputation. I’m a Sheffielder, who had relatives in the Barnsley and Huddersfield areas, and always thought Baddeley Brothers looked quite classy. I was only really aware of them as a student in the early 70s, passing through on the X19. By that time, the principal vehicles were Bedford YRQ/Plaxton Panorama Elite Express grant vehicles. They still looked smart, though.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 15:04
David, Your mention of plastic roofs on the 60’s has jogged my memory. I remember the cloth trim on the interior ceiling of both 2496 WY and 433 BWU being quite badly stained by the ingress of water when they would probably be only about five years old. Baddeley’s also had a Duple Alpine Continental on a Leopard chassis 474 EWW. Of course the other sizeable coach operator in the Huddersfield area was Hanson’s who had two batches of Firefly’s on Ford chassis in 1963/4
Eric
03/11/11 – 06:27
Strange, isn’t it, how many operators had heavy (or medium) weight service buses and lightweight coaches? Hanson and Booth and Fisher (recently posted) had AECs and Ford coaches, York Pullman was AEC/Bedford, the Doncaster indis went down a similar road and this was replicated around the country. Firms like Baddeley Bros were less common, but by no means unique, with their mix of heavy and light weight coaches.
David Oldfield
03/11/11 – 17:46
Hanson’s was rather a complex fleet in the fifties. The coaches were a mix of Regal III and Reliances and Bedfords and the buses were AEC with a smattering of Albions. Between 1956 and 1966 most of the AEC’s went on to be rebuilt as buses. The Bedfords were kept anything from 2 to about 5 years and from about 1959 all new coaches were Fords right to the demise of the Hanson business in 1974. This change of allegiance is thought to have being something to do with Hanson Haulage buying large numbers of Ford lorries. Baddeley’s although being a smaller operator chose both Leyland and Bedford for new coaches in the fifties, many with Burlingham bodies, this policy continuing into the sixties. They also purchased quite a few secondhand coaches, including 2 that had been operated at one time or another with Hansons. Another feature of Baddeley’s was the hiring in for the summer season of coaches from local dealer Hughes and the Baddeley’s fleet name and number being applied. Several of these were in Wallace Arnold cream as the had be leased by WA for one or two seasons from Hughes when new. This led to Baddeley’s having quite an interesting and varied fleet. Wish I had owned a camera in those days.
Eric
04/11/11 – 07:04
I agree with you David. The last of what some would call ‘proper coaches’ to carry the Wakefields name were two Plaxton Embassy Bedfords ‘SB8’s I think’. The next Wakefields after that were Alexander ‘Y’ type DP’s on Leyland Leopard chassis, but I think that would have been a decision based on economics. Percy Main depot didn’t have any long distance or express routes, so the coach fleet was only used for private hires and excursions and most were de-Licensed at the end of Blackpool Illuminations, so apart from three double deckers the Wakefields name virtually disappeared from October until about Easter, where as the DP’s were used all year round and went onto stage carriage work in winter months. If memory serves, for the first couple of years some of them had the seats changed to ordinary bus type during the winter.
Ronnie Hoye
13/11/12 – 08:40
I remember going to the Lake District in the early 60s on one of these and it did indeed have the reversed coach livery the above is a later incarnation.
Malcolm Swaddle
18/04/13 – 17:40
Not in colour I’m afraid, but I’ve found this photo of one of EFT 551’s sisters in its original Wakefield’s livery. As I’ve said, Percy Main had four of these, EFT 550/3 – 250/3; and they remained in service as coaches until about 1970, they were then transferred to Northern and downgraded to D/P’s
Sheffield United Tours 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV Burlingham C37C
In connection with the article about “Burlingham’s flock of Seagulls” by Neville Mercer. I would like to contribute the above shots of my all-time favourite coach. They looked great and were a real joy to ride. SUT’s Seagulls took me on holiday to Skegness. I attach two views, nearside & offside of the 1957 batch. Not sure of the location of 269 but YWA 273 is seen loading in Pond Street, Sheffield. Additionally many had names of European places on SUTs trips, for example, 269 was Como and 273 was Interlaken. Both had worthwhile careers after SUT. The Seagull and SUT livery were made for each other. Photos purchased from RHG Simpson.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
10/06/12 – 11:48
I know Burlingham were eventually swallowed up by Duple, but did Duple have any influence on this update from the original Seagull? From this angle the rear end seems to be very similar to the Duple design of the early sixties which had a Butterfly or Crown shaped grill ‘I’ve heard it referred to as both’ Some may disagree, but I always thought the Seagull was better suited to an under floor engined chassis rather the the likes of a Bedford, but either way it was a timeless classic
Ronnie Hoye
10/06/12 – 18:00
Anyone who has been around this site for any time will know that I am an AEC, Burlingham and, as a Sheffielder, SUT fan. The rear end design, which changed in 1957, has always puzzled me, too. It is INDENTICAL to the rear end of the Duple Butterfly Vega. This was three or four years before the Duple takeover and I don’t think there was an official link before 1960 or 1961. [Where’s Neville Mercer when you need him?] SUT coaches differed within batches as to capacity (from 30 to 41) and in the case of the Burlinghams as to seat style. Some, the “Oyster” seats were standard high backed coach seats, but others (on touring coaches) had retractable heads for better vision. Later 36′ Plaxtons had only 44 widely spaced seats for touring and no headrests for similar reasons.
David Oldfield
11/06/12 – 08:43
I reckon these particular coaches were a comparative rarity. From the Seagull Mk. IV onwards most examples were front entranced with a subtly slightly more squared up front end to suit. It seems that on the few occasions when a centre-entrance was still specified the original more rounded profile of the classic Mk. I to III was retained. This is presumably a Mk. V because of the curved rear corner window arrangement. As recent discussion has pointed out, Plaxton also retained a more rounded front end on their centre-entrance models of the period, and even more so Duple on their later Brittanias.
John Stringer
11/06/12 – 14:21
In response to David Oldfield’s interesting observation on the similarity of the Seagull to the Duple Vega body of the era I submit a picture of TWJ 249 which was one of a batch (243-252) of C41C Duple Elizabethan bodied Reliances delivered to SUT in 1955. They were MU3RV The first of the Seagulls followed in 1956. Whilst the Elizabethan is not un-attractive, for me it does not please the eye so much as either the Seagull or the Duple Vega.
The earlier batch of Seagulls for Sheffield United Tours is represented here by VWE 260 delivered in 1956. The batch was 255-266 and they were AEC Reliance MU3RV (780-791). The Seagull bodies were C41C (255/6), C39C (257/8), C37C (259-264) and C30C (265/6).
The third, and final batch of AEC Reliance Burlingham Seagulls delivered to Sheffield United Tours is represented in this picture which, as before, was purchased from RHG Simpson and illustrates 3283 WB. These were again MU3RV (1529-34) and C41C. All of these went to Neath & Cardiff, and became “Brown Bombers” in 1966.
Les Dickinson
11/06/12 – 17:49
Fantastic collection, Les. Thank you for that. The Duple Elizabethan picture has a number of interesting points to it. Firstly, the Elizabethan morphed into the Roe Dalesman. [As a “Roe” man I would like to know how this happened. Did Roe buy the rights to it or did Duple buy the rights from ACV – or what?] In the background there is one of only two vehicles “bought” second-hand – as opposed to coming with the acquisition of a fleet. Two AEC Regal IV/Plaxton Venture II came from Altrincham Coachways in 1954 when less than twelve months old. Altrincham Coachways was a subsidiary of North Western Road Car – one third of the consortium that owned SUT (along with Yorkshire Traction and East Midland). “Bought” may, therefore be stretching it a bit. One was involved in an accident but the integrity of the body held up and impressed SUT engineers so much that it was responsible for them going to Plaxtons for the Panorama when Burlingham, their preferred builder, was unwilling to do so.
David Oldfield
12/06/12 – 06:52
SUT worked very closely with Plaxton on the design of the Panorama and I believe they had the first production model David. Also, the first 36′ coach on UK roads was SUT 326, 136AWJ, which was a Reliance 4U3RA I think. This was Plaxton Panorama C44F where the forerunners had been variously C36/40/41F. Many of the original ones had names which were prefixed Panorama. For example the first two,285 and 286, were Panorama Pilot and Panorama Pioneer respectively. SUT didn’t have any Roe Dalesman however Sheffield Corporation had one, 9000WB fleet number 900/90 which had a central doorway but was mostly used as a “committee” plaything I think.
Les Dickinson
12/06/12 – 06:53
Here I am! As far as I know there is no record of Burlingham purchasing parts or design rights for the “rear end” arrangement on the Seagull Mk V from Duple. Almost all external panels were made from sheet metal in Burlingham’s own workshops. Since the Seagull V was introduced two years after the first model of Duple Super Vega with a similar back-end one must suspect that a Burlingham designer was a fan of Hendon’s design. This kind of plagiarism (or is it “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”?) was quite common back in the 1950s with both Trans-United of Rochdale and Heaver of Durrington being well-known for their Burlingham clone designs. Heaver finally took it a step too far with their New Look design of 1952. This was around 90% Seagull and attracted letters from Burlingham’s solicitors. The model was rapidly discontinued. Hate to correct you, David, but North Western didn’t buy Altrincham Coachways until 1958. At the time it sold the coaches to SUT it was still owned by the Frank Ford organisation. Ford was in the habit of selling off relatively new coaches if the price was right, and then replacing them with older vehicles from elsewhere in his empire – Altrincham Coachways received hand-me-downs from Triumph of Hastings and Gardiner of Spennymoor to replace the majority of its own fleet in 1956-57. Then, after stripping the firm’s assets, he sold it to NWRCC.
Neville Mercer
12/06/12 – 06:53
That Duple Elizabethan has a front dash panel and grill the like of which I have never seen anywhere, never mind on a Duple Elizabethan, and it is not an improvement! In its natural form I think the Elizabethan was neater and more elegant than the Dalesman, with more continuity of level between the front bit and the main window line. I’ve never heard mention of any connection before – it just looks like mild plagiarism to me. According to BBF17, Altrincham Coachways did not become a North Western subsidiary until 1958, so a purchase in 1954 would have been exactly that.
Peter Williamson
12/06/12 – 08:59
I thought you maybe interested in a colour shot of 3283 WB.
John Stringer
12/06/12 – 09:53
Neville/Peter: I stand corrected. Interesting though. Is this the same Frank Ford who went to Plaxtons, fell out with them and went to Duple to produce the Dominant – a “not quite” Elite copy? Rumour is he then ran Duple into the ground and was the architect of their demise. [A re-run of his Altricham Coachways asset stripping?] The whole point, Les, was that SUT approached Burlingham who initially refused on practical grounds. They then went to Plaxtons, after their experience with the two Regals, who came up with the Panorama and sealed a long and happy relationship. Only NBC’s insistence on going to Duple in 1973 broke this relationship. Burlingham relented, too late, with the Seagull VII – but also proved their own point in that it was structurally suspect with every alternate pillar missing to provide panoramic windows. [Plaxtons used the same idea for the Panorama. Was it the straight window line that worked for Plaxtons and the curved line which did for Burlingham?] The naming of SUT coaches started with Ben Goodfellow calling the Windover Regal IVs the “Gay” class, after his daughter Gaynor. [Another North Western connection. NWRCC had taken over the Goodfellow business and Ben moved over to be General Manager of SUT.] I believe the Elizabethans became the Elizabethen class (how original) and the Burlinghams were the Continental class. It is also interesting to note the number of Burlinghams and early Panoramas used by SUT as experimental vehicles – trying out various types of air conditioning, air suspension and even turbo-chargers, long before these became accepted, standard fitments
Nice shot, John.
David Oldfield
12/06/12 – 11:39
Yes David, it’s the same Frank Ford, and I completely agree with your comments about his later career. For some reason he always reminded me of Freddie Laker, but I’d probably better not use the word “spiv”!
Neville Mercer
13/06/12 – 09:47
Aw, go on. There’s a picture somewhere of him giving a prize to Flight’s for their Bristol RELH6L/Plaxton at the coach rally. He just looks as you said.
David Oldfield
13/06/12 – 09:48
Some very interesting information there from Neville Mercer. The Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group site contains a section on Bus Adverts which has a picture of the Heaver design, to which I think Neville refers. It is registered PYA 578 and bears the name ‘Crown Tours’. I had wondered if it was a vehicle which ever existed or if it was simply a ‘doctored’ Burlingham photograph, such is the resemblance. I wonder if anyone has a picture of it which could be posted on here because, as Neville says, it is 90% Burlingham Seagull!
But a cheap imitation nonetheless – none of the subtlety of the original.
David Oldfield
14/06/12 – 18:19
Well, David, they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. However, imitations are seldom as good as the original, and having seen the picture I don’t think this is any exception.
Ronnie Hoye
17/06/12 – 09:09
Here is last month’s front view of Harper Bros., Staffs, No. 90, a rare combination of 1959 Guy LUF with Gardner 6HLW engine and Burlingham Seagull body
Chris Hebbron
17/06/12 – 16:14
Copyright Albert S. Bite
And now a rear view shot thanks to Albert S. Bite
Chris Hebbron
27/06/12 – 06:56
Regarding the two Regal IV’s purchased by SUT from Altrincham Coachways in February 1954 (RMB 158 & JBU 164). Both entered service with SUT still in the blue & cream of their previous owner but after around six months, the blue was repainted red leaving the rest cream. It was due to RMB 158 having a smash near the Cat & Fiddle on the way to Macclesfield that the company decided to approach Plaxtons with a view to building what was to become the Panorama. Burlingham was initially contacted by the company in 1957 but they turned down the idea. The Panorama was designed by the GM of SUT, Ben Goodfellow and his Chief Engineer, Ron Burgin. The Panorama name was submitted by an employee electrician at SUT by the name of John Otter who won £5 for his idea. Incidentally, SUT paid the sum of £3.980 each for RMB & JBU.
Trev Weckert
27/06/12 – 10:03
Good to welcome Mr Weckert to the forum. I have a copy of his excellent SUT book in the Venture/Prestige series.
David Oldfield
28/06/12 – 07:49
Many thanks for your kind words David. It has been mentioned that some although not all of SUT’s Seagull’s had air conditioning. To clarify this, the first delivered in 1956 (VWE255-258) had no such fitment whilst VWE 259-266 had Key Leather units fitted in a ‘pod’ on the roof which was powered by paraffin. The 1957 batch (YWA 267-278)and the 1958 ones (3279 WB-3284 WB had Webasto units mounted beneath the floor. Incidentally, 266 became the official transport of the Joe Loss Orchestra and bore the legend “In The Mood” whilst SUT had this contract. This was the second coach to undertake this duty, the first being a Windover Kingsway bodied Regal IV (RWE 228). Hope this is of some interest.
Trev Weckert
17/07/12 – 18:00
Trev Weckert mentions the “Joe Loss – In The Mood” vehicles. Herewith a picture of VWE 266 in that very mood. Note the clef symbol below the side-light This one was MU3RV 791, Burlingham 6086, normally C41C, but C30C whilst on this contract. This vehicle went to Murrellmills, Trafford Park in, or by 1967
Les Dickinson
26/10/12 – 07:00
I seem to have missed some of the later comments on this thread. I like the reference to the Joe Loss coach, and its clef symbol. One of my former colleagues was something of a musician in his spare time, being involved with a Bavarian-style band. His initials were PJG, which he always wrote as the clef.
Pete Davies
03/01/14 – 08:01
Interesting to read about SUT. I regularly travelled with them as a youngster. However they used to have a coach based on the Isle Of Man. Such was the size of their operation. I remember seeing it on Douglas promenade in the early sixties. I can’t remember what model it was but I believe it was an AEC. It also had an IOM registration.
Andrew T
03/01/14 – 09:52
Andrew, the IOM law at the time was that any vehicle so “outstationed” should have a local registration. Thus, each year, an SUT coach was re-registered for a stay on the IOM. It was only there for a season – less than a calendar year – and then returned home to Sheffield. It was not necessarily the same one in even consecutive years. Whether the same IOM mark was used I do not know. [Trevor Weckert, are you out there?]
David Oldfield
05/01/14 – 16:43
I have traced four SUT Reliances that carried Manx registrations: 1958 Burlingham 284 (3284 WB) carried “YMN 616” for the 2/59 to 04/62 seasons 1960 Plaxton 309 (6309 WJ) carried “5380 MN” for the 05/62 to 04/66 seasons 1961 Plaxton 321 (1321 WA) carried “69 FMN” for the 04/66 to 01/71 seasons 1970 Plaxton 409 (DWA 409H) carried “96XMN” for the 04/71 to 09/72 seasons
Dave Farrier
07/01/14 – 07:06
Slightly off topic, but related to registration plates. When I was at secondary school in Harrogate in the late ‘sixties, our brilliant art teacher Miss Daly had a beautiful ‘Old English White’ Morgan sports car. It had the customary black pressed alloy number plates with aluminium-coloured letters/numerals, which were noteworthy in having yellow-coloured surrounds front and rear. I later discovered this indicated that the vehicle was temporarily imported from abroad, which tied in nicely with our art teacher being from New Zealand. (From memory the car was registered in the HOX-E series). Probably a long shot, but I wonder if any PSV’s ever sported such plates.
Brendan Smith
07/01/14 – 13:38
Brendon, Temporary reg no’s were QA-QT
Roger Broughton
10/01/14 – 18:32
Thanks for the info regarding the Q-series registrations Roger. Although I knew of them, probably from I-Spy books, I had obviously misunderstood the information I had read in my youth relating to yellow number plate surrounds, and wrongly linked the two. All these years I have been under the mis-apprehension that the white Morgan was a temporary import. Following further research on t’interweb, it transpires that between 1963 and 1972, vehicles purchased in the UK for subsequent export were given number plates with yellow edging (which was changed to red in 1973), indicating that purchase tax (or later, VAT) had not been paid. Fortunately this still ties in nicely with said Morgan, as Miss Daly left the school in 1968, presumably to return to New Zealand with her fine sports car. I hold my wrist out for a firm slap Roger, comforted by the fact that this website continues to contribute so admirably to lifelong learning.
Brendan Smith
20/01/14 – 08:08
Although the Kingsways of SUT were the first ‘official’ named coaches in the fleet, a number of unofficial namings took place. Half cab Regals from the KWA batch received the following KWA 707 Yorkshire Lad, KWA 712 Highland Monarch, KWA 717 Torquay Queen, KWA 721 Bournemouth Belle. KWA 723 was the first Sheffield Wednesday coach in the fleet. Originally it had a football mounted above the cab. A number of Kingsways had Thermotank forced air systems from new. Incidentally some of the VWE regd Seagull had air conditioning by Key-Leather mounted in a pod on the roof powered by Paraffin.
Trev Weckert
20/01/14 – 11:59
What did I start here?? What a great post this turned out to be, with some wonderful comments and information from a wide range of knowledgeable people. Thanks Trev for this latest comment which confirmed to me that I was a tad less mad than I thought I was. I always thought that I had either seen, or seen a picture of, KWA 712 as “The Yorkshire Lad” when I was just that. I have never been able to find any such confirmation in print. I, for one, am never too old to learn something new and today’s lesson came courtesy of Mr. Weckert!
Les Dickinson
27/01/14 – 15:55
Hi Les, Just to put things straight, it was KWA 707 that wore Yorkshire Lad and it also bore a Tam O Shanta transfer on the bonnet side. In the early fifties a number of coaches were borrowed from Northern Roadways in Glasgow and upon return by SUT staff (including Jack Hancock and Jim Heenan) it was noted that their coaches had this transfer on them. The management was asked if they could spare a couple. Upon return to Sheffield, transfers were affixed to bonnets of KWA 706/707.
Trev Weckert
31/01/14 – 15:44
I have your book from the Library at present. As a boy I used to go & look at the SUT garage to marvel at the coaches & their destinations. You did a great job Trev.
Andy Fisher
01/09/17 – 05:57
Regarding the 1st Montreaux Coach Rally. I was always told that my Father Walter Fothergill was the driver who drove the SUT coach that won this rally.
Edward Fothergill
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
14/01/20 – 16:14
This picture of an SUT Seagull brings back happy memories. I attended St Wilfrids school between 1963 and 1968. Our original school bus which was owned by the school and driven by the caretaker Mr O’Toole, was a green Chesterfield lowdecker. This had four abreast seating upstairs on the left side and a sunken trough on the right side. At some point this was replaced by a Seagull which still bore the SUT livery. I remember it being very luxurious when compared to every other bus I’d seen previously. It would start collecting pupils on Shoreham Street, up Wolsley Rd, then up Abbeydale Rd to Millhouses Lane. I’d catch it outside Abbeydale Cinema. Anybody have any idea which registration it carried. Sadly, driver had eyesight problems, and the bus languished in it’s parking spot till disposal.
M Stevenson
19/01/20 – 06:18
Reliance 264 (VWE 264) passed to St Wilfred’s Roman Catholic School, Sheffield in 1965, then to Trevor Ward and Son Limited, Kirkburton in 10/1970, being withdrawn in 10/1971. Probably had more legroom in its C37C format, compared to Ribble’s GCK-registered Royal Tigers which were C41C.
Safeguard of Guildford runs buses and coaches in the area and 200 APB is preserved by the operator, attending rallies at regular intervals. It is an AEC Reliance MU3RV with Burlingham B44F body, complete with the trademark “Seagull” motif. The first view shows her at Wisley on 4 April 2004
While the second view – taken on 10 April 2011, at Dunsfold – shows the fleetname.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
16/05/16 – 06:50
I have always admired this style of Burlingham saloon body, and it is good to see this vehicle in such fine fettle. I recall seeing it around quite often in Guildford on my visits to the town in the 1950s and 1960s. Safeguard sold this bus surprisingly early in its life in 1962 to the South Petherton, Somerset firm of Safeway, similarly named and similarly liveried, where it stayed until 1982. It then passed into the hands of a preservation group and spent a period with the Quantock heritage fleet, Taunton, before returning to Safeguard ownership. OBP has an item on a Safeway coach submitted by Ken Jones, together with an informative link that includes pictures of this Reliance; see Safeway Coaches – Dennis Lancet – ASV 900.
Roger Cox
16/05/16 – 10:02
Five weeks ago, I went to Ottershaw, Surrey, for a one hour meeting. At the end, I had a nose bleed, heamorrhage-style! I spent five days in Guildford Royal Hospital and watched Safeguard buses passing by every 15 mins. Seeing this activity and looking at their website, it was a great surprise that this long-lasting firm is still around and even blooming, it would seem. My memories of them date from the early 1960’s, when I worked by Guildford rail station. There is a photo of 200 APB on their website, decked out with wedding ribbon.
Chris Hebbron
16/05/16 – 17:56
Safeguard had a reputation for keeping vehicles for a relatively short time, always having a modern fleet, certainly when I knew them in the seventies and eighties.A well run and highly regarded company, still with a decent livery today.
David Wragg
16/05/16 – 17:57
Sorry to learn of your recent stay in hospital, Chris H. My father had three or four similar instances (involving Southampton General) Take care, young Sir!
Oh dear Chris, sorry to hear that Ottershaw had such a bad effect on you. It doesn’t happen to everyone though, i’ve lived there for 30 years without any problems! Also surprised that you went to the Royal Surrey, given that St Peter’s Hospital is so close.
Grahame Arnold
19/05/16 – 06:08
Thx Pete/Grahame for your commiserations! St. Peter’s put a bung up my nose to stop the bleeding, but the Royal had an ENT Dept to cauterise etc. I’ve been visiting Ottershaw since the 1950’s and the journey from Portsmouth, by train, was always worthwhile for a ride on the A & D Dennis Lance K3’s with their ‘Supertop’ 5-speed gearboxes, which enabled them to fairly scoot along from Woking to Botley’s Park! Thankfully, one’s been preserved.
Premier Travel (Cambridge) 1959 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Burlingham Seagull C41F
The final Mk. VII incarnation of the classic Burlingham Seagull coach body is generally considered by most to be something of a travesty, compared to the earlier versions. With its squared off side panel and slight nod towards tail fins – becoming popular at the time on cars – and longer and fewer side windows attempting to vie with Plaxton’s first Panoramas, it just didn’t work and soon afterwards a complete redesign resulted in the introduction of the Seagull 70 which seemed to some degree to be inspired by the ‘new classic’ – the Harrington Cavalier. 85 UME had been new to Valliant of London W5 in 1959 but had later passed with others to Premier Travel, along with similar examples from Yelloway, joining a further one which Premier had bought new and resulting in probably the largest number of Mk. VII’s in any one fleet. It is seen here on an enthusiasts’ tour in 1971.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
30/06/16 – 06:38
John, I agree absolutely with your comments about this final version of the classic Seagull design but strangely the angle of the photograph in your posting makes this one look really rather nice. I’m intrigued though, about those dividing strips in the side windows, it seems very odd to have panoramic windows and then divide them into smaller panes.
Chris Barker
30/06/16 – 08:05
The Seagull never seemed to look right without the centre sliding door. It was fundamental to the original design and the later front entrance versions always seemed to me to be something of a ‘lash-up’.
Philip Halstead
01/07/16 – 06:14
I’ve never seen a picture of this one when it was new, but I suspect that the window dividers were a later addition. Quite a few of the Seagull Mk VII bodies needed remedial work as Burlingham’s designers had been rather optimistic about the load-bearing strength of the original window pillars! As far as I know this was never a problem with the Plaxton Panorama of the late 1950s (or any of its successors), but the problem did re-occur at the Blackpool factory – by then Duple (Northern) – in the 1960s with the original Viceroy. Several of those rolled on to their backs resulting in window pillar collapse and crushed passengers.
Neville Mercer
01/07/16 – 06:15
The stenghtheners between the window pillars seem to run inside the glazing, and my guess is they were put in at recertification as the Mk VII had a reputation for flexibility…
Stephen Allcroft
01/07/16 – 06:16
Strangely, despite editing the photo for submission, I’d failed to notice those dividing strips. I’m going to have to search for a photo showing it (or similar ones) with Valliant to see if they were built like that, or whether it was a Premier Travel modification. I agree, Philip, that the original centre-entrance version was by far the the best looking, but I think the front-entrance Mk.IV’s and V’s still looked pretty decent too. I think the worst looking Seagulls were the Mk.VI with flat windscreens and little bus-type windows (though they were undoubtedly a more practical proposition from Ribble’s point of view), and the downright ugly 1959 season model for the Bedford SB.
John Stringer
01/07/16 – 16:18
Setting aside the possible involvement of the Safety Elf or his predecessors, could it be that the centre-door version was more “coach” as used by one’s local holiday tours firm, and the front/forward entrance one was more “express bus” as used by North Western, Ribble, etc?
Pete Davies
04/07/16 – 15:58
Here is a picture of 86 UME without the strengthening in the middle of the windows (at least on the offside): www.sct61.org.uk/
For me the classic Burlingham Seagull remains as stylish and attractive as it did when I saw my first Sheffield United Tours examples. This one, Reliance MU3RV294, Burlingham 5855, was new to Anderton of Keighley in January 1955 and was snapped by John C Gillham at the Clacton Coach Rally.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
24/04/17 – 07:20
The design and appearance of the Seagull can, I think, be justifiably be described as immortal.
Chris Youhill
25/04/17 – 07:21
Shaped a bit like a teardrop… but more refined….
Mike..009
27/04/17 – 14:56
OWT 940 was sold to Victoria Coaches of Wakefield and was exported to Malta in 1970, probably as a chassis only. It received a coach body built by Debono and was in the coach fleet as registration number 2573 by December 1970, later being re-registered to Y-0871. By July 1987 it had been downgraded to bus work as Y-0767 as B45F, losing its glass rooflights and gaining green livery. It later received yellow bus livery and was re-registered to FBY 767. In this form it worked until 2011, when the interesting Malta Bus fleet was swept away in the name of progress. Thus it worked hard until it was 56 years old, a tribute to AEC.
Dave Farrier
28/04/17 – 17:16
At one time the Maltese route bus vehicles only worked on alternate days, so perhaps this lovely old lady has a semi-retirement in the sun.
David Wragg
04/05/17 – 06:40
I was very interested to see the photo of the Anderton’s AEC. I grew up in Anderton’s home town (Keighley) and they were a well-known local coach business, always smartly turned out in pale blue and cream. I obviously wasn’t observant enough, because I don’t recall this vehicle. Anderton’s seemed to trade in at regular intervals, usually purchasing lighter modern coaches such as the Vega, etc. Sadly they sold out, I think in the early 80s, to Bowen’s and they were closed down.
I do not have much information on Harper Bros but Heath Hayes is approximately 3kms east of Cannock, Staffordshire. If you have any information and would like to share it please leave a comment. From what I have come up with they were taken over by Midland Red Omnibus Company Limited (MROC) in September 1974, the depot at Heath Hayes was closed and the buses were moved to a new Midland Red depot at Cannock. I am not sure who built the body for the above coach but if I had to guess Duple would be fairly high on the list. This style of body was called an half canopy as there was no roof over the bonnet and nearside mudguard as apposed to an half cab which did. The Harper Bros livery was a light grey green with white mudguards and in the case of this coach a white roof not sure if the white roof was standard for all the fleet. Is there anybody who can explain the difference if there is one between Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Company Limited (BMMO) and Midland Red Omnibus Company Limited (MROC). If you know please leave a comment.
You are spot on, TRE 251 has a Burlingham C33F body as had sister vehicle TRE 241. Both new in 1950. TRE 251 was scrapped in Nov 1968, TRE241 not traced. Harper Bros had 9 AEC double deck buses & 6 AEC coaches from 1930 to the mid 1960s. If anyone requires information on Harper Bros I will gladly try to answer any queries.
Mick Bullock
The Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co Ltd (BMMO) was established on 26 November 1904. BMMO was commonly known as Midland Red & used the fleet name Midland on its distinctive red buses. After losing Birmingham services to the new West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive (WMPTE) BMMO was renamed to the Midland Red Omnibus Co Ltd (MRO) on 29 March 1974. MRO lasted until 6 September 1981 when it was divided into six independent companies: Midland Red (North) etc. Enthusiasts can learn all this & much more at Adam Harber’s excellent www.midlandred.net website.
Peter Walford
24/03/11 – 08:38
Hi I am seeking fleet list of Harpers from there start to BMMO sell out. Any costs will be met.
John Hellewell
07/07/11 – 06:38
I now live in Cheshire and have done since 1960, I was born in Walsall Wood during the war. I remember Harpers bus service very well and used it till it was taken over, sad day. It was in my mind the best bus service I have ever known, I wish I had kept some of the early tickets which were about 3 inches by 2, all different colours and individual. The half fare for me was tuppence from Streets corner to Aldridge, If I came out of the house late and did not get to the bus stop they would pick me up, I remember in 1965 getting the bus to Aldridge and my girl friend getting on in Aldridge and she was late, John Morson the driver would shout don’t get off Jim we will wait for her. I know this is not much but you may draw something from it.
Jimmie Charles
07/07/11 – 08:09
What a lovely romantic story, Jimmie – the driver knew what romance was all about! Were that service was like that today!
Chris Hebbron
08/07/11 – 06:19
Thanks Chris, I have very little to offer but one thing stays in my mind, they had a double decker that was different to the others, when you went upstairs the aisle did not go down the centre with twin seats either side but went down the off side of the upper deck with seats on the left which seated 4. does that make sense. If I can think of any more useless info I will let you know.
Jimmie Charles
09/07/11 – 07:05
Hi Jimmie the double decker you refer to is what was classed as a Low Bridge Decker by having the aisle along the offside meant the roofline could be lower, the normal height would be 14’6 a low bridge if I remember correctly was around 13’6. I stand corrected but I think the fleet number was 3, if you remember you had to step up from the aisle into the seats and downstairs you had to mind your head if you sat by the offside window. I used to work for Harpers for a few years from 1964 both part time and full time conducting and driving (happy days) so if their is anything that you want to know and I can give you the answer I will
Phil Burton
09/12/11 – 08:33
Jimmie you have brought back a lot of memories. I to was born in Walsall Wood and remember Harper Bros with affection both for Bus services… Cannock through Brownhills to Kingstanding; Saturday Football Coaches to Villa, WBA and Wolves, and Saturday Holiday Coaches to North Wales resorts, New Brighton, Southport and Blackpool. In school holidays worked at their Aldridge Garage taking Holiday and Day Trip bookings. Most reliable and considerate firm out, our annual trip to Colwyn Bay would never have been the same, especially as coach hardly made the big hills at times, or had to pull in and wait to cool off. Still have a model Guy Arab in their colours, prized possession.
Ken Paskin
01/04/12 – 08:36
Has John Hellewell managed to acquire a Harper Bros fleet list yet, as I could supply him with one if required.
Mick Bullock
15/04/12 – 07:35
I think Jimmie’s referring to KRE 849, Harper’s fleet no. 24, a Burlingham lowbridge bodied Guy. Mick – any chance of a copy of your fleet list, please?
Graeme Fisher
04/07/12 – 05:14
I remember Harpers with great fondness as a young lad from the 1960’s when a bus conductor called Jack used to let me ring the bell on journeys between Hednesford and Aldridge. I am always on the look out for photos from this period and as someone has mentioned I also would love a fleet list. If anyone can.
Keith Harley
17/07/12 – 07:11
Phil and Jimmie The lowbridge double decker was fleet number 24, KRE 849 with Burlingham bodywork.
Graeme Fisher
21/07/12 – 07:43
Graeme Thanks for the confirmation, I wasn’t sure of the fleet number as I was only a child when I used to ride on it from Cannock to Kingstanding on Saturday afternoons with my dad who used to conduct it as well as other buses in the fleet, happy memories. When I worked for Harpers it was long gone.
Phil Burton
23/07/12 – 07:53
I would also be interested in a Harpers fleet list.
Alan Nicholls
22/09/12 – 06:57
The depot at Heath Hayes wasn’t closed when Harpers were taken over, I think Midland Red used it for 3/4 years before opening the new depot at Cannock. When Midland Red lost a significant proportion of its operating area (and depots) to WMPTE, it found itself short of depot capacity and therefore reopened a depot at Cradley Heath which had closed some time earlier. When the Cannock depot was opened, both Heath Hayes and Cradley Heath depots closed. (Yes, I know Cradley Heath is nowhere near Cannock, there must have been a bit of a swap about of routes). I believe that some of the staff from Cradley Heath actually transferred to Cannock, which must have been something of a hike for them. Incidentally, after the loss of routes to WMPTE Midland Red publicly stated that it was on the acquisition trail – so it wasn’t too much of a surprise when, before too long, it had bought not only Harpers but also Green Bus of Rugeley.
David Call
02/10/12 – 15:22
I remember the Cannock garage, My uncle drove for Harpers and lived in the house next to the garage. I’m no sure if the house an garage are still there. Does anyone have any photos of Harpers Garage in Cannock?
Merv
27/10/12 – 05:57
Harper’s garage at Heath Hayes was demolished some time ago and replaced by housing. Their small garage at Aldridge survives as a carpet shop. As others have said, they were a special operator in their day and sold out because Albert Harper wished to retire and no other family member was interested.
Tony Martin
07/02/13 – 06:42
I have very fond memories of Harpers of Heath Hayes as my father, the late Joe Martin was a driver for them during my childhood in the 1950’s and 60’s. I can remember a couple of other drivers, Jack Slater, Ernie ??? We lived in the village too, so I was always going on trips during school holidays with the Labour Club, The Cons Club etc. I have a photo of my dad pictured at a reunion of drivers and staff some years ago, which I will dig out and place here. I also have some black and white photos of a couple of trips with all the children, mothers and even Nurse Girdlestone assembled (a local Heath Hayes character from the 50’s and 60’s!) They show just how many people were transported to lovely places for the day by several drivers on the same day. It was like a coach convoy! My friend’s late mother also worked in the office at the Harpers garage on the Stafford Road in Cannock, her name was Vera Sherratt and we still often talk about this great local company, who served this area of the Midlands very well. My parents originally met on my dad’s bus too on the route to Chapel Ash. In later years he gave up his job as a driver for Harpers before Midland Red took over, to work in my mothers grocery shop in Mill Street, Cannock – he always said he felt like his driving wings had been clipped! Sorry that my account is not too bus related, but this lovely company was always held in high regard by everyone that travelled with them.
Carol Jones
20/02/13 – 16:55
Hi Carol, I remember your late father both as a child, when my late father Cyril Burton worked different shifts with him as his conductor & some Saturdays I would have a ride to Kingstanding have a cup of tea in the billiard hall with Joe & my dad then ride back, also when your father would be the driver of an excursion to the seaside we would be going on, no motorways then. Also when I started part time with Harpers as a conductor I worked with him a few times but he did mainly excursions & private hire work then. Other drivers who would have worked for this iconic company at the time Joe was there & he would probably bring up in conversation would be George Brown, Jack Poiser, Joe Scott, Norman Mills, Eric Thacker, Les King, Ray Wilce, Tommy Owen, George & Bill Elsmore to name but a few. The people who were served by Harpers Buses & crews had no idea what a great reliable service they had until 1974 when they lost it, I bet they wish they had Harpers now.
Phil Burton
09/06/13 – 11:38
I remember Harpers well through my childhood and youth. They had a garage and small booking office at the corner of New Penkridge Road Cannock with Dartmouth Avenue. One of their renowned drivers was named Jim Brown and he lived nearby in New Penkridge Road and I was at school with his son Emlyn. My Aunt at Wedges Mills used to organise coach trips with Harpers through many summers late 40s early 50s – Rhyl, Blackpool, New Brighton, Evesham at blossom and fruit times and London all being popular Sunday destinations leaving happy memories. My Aunt was a nervous passenger and was always more nervous when Jim drove the coach as she considered him a “speed mad driver” and she often used to say ” He will kill us all” – in truth he was a good driver and she was just suffering from nervousness. Also recall that on Saturdays when Wolves were playing at home at 2pm a single deck and a double deck Harpers would pass through packed with supporters to the game. In the late 50s my method of transport to my first job was via Harpers single decker from Cannock (Rosas Cafe) to Brewood via Hatherton, Calf Heath and Four Ashes a life line for those places at that time..
Tony Bibb
10/03/14 – 14:53
I too used to travel on Harpers buses 1948-1964 I lived in Hatherton Village, Cannock. Yes the bus drivers used to know every ones ‘habits’ and would wait for any of their usual passengers if they were late. Conductors helped you on and off the bus with any luggage. I remember going to school one very deep snowy morning in Brewood, and the bus got stuck in a drift on Somerford corner, so the driver Harry, locked up the bus and actually marched us all round to our school in a line. Then went back to sort his bus out. Nothing was too much trouble for any of the drivers or conductors. One of the drivers I remember by name was Levi, and the guy that wore the brown overall, was he the Inspector Mr Cardman or something close to that name. Oh what memorable, pleasant happy days. Service with a smile always. It was a grand company.
Carole Mears
19/03/14 – 07:33
Hi Carole I think the names you are thinking about are possibly Levi Humphries and Athy Carden. Like you say pleasant happy days.
Phil Burton
11/08/14 – 09:54
It’s been a couple of years since I have been on this site, I am amazed how much has been added since then, I found the picture of the tickets interesting & remember them, however before those tickets which rolled out of a small machine when the handle was turned, the conductor & I do remember Jack if it’s the same man had a kind of wooden clip board which he took the individual tickets out & punched a hole in them, does anyone remember those wonderful different coloured tickets? Why didn’t I keep some. Also, after reading your articles I felt a warmth which you don’t get these days, also, I remember the day trips to Wales, a real treat for ordinary kids who had very little & there were plenty of us. How lucky we were.
Jimmie Charles
11/06/16 – 05:31
As a lad of 13 during the late 60s l went on many day trips with Harpers during the school holidays. My late mother and father would book the tickets for us from a little office in Park Road Sutton Coldfield,close to where we lived. We would meet the coach at a place called Harman Road and the adventure would start. We had no car and limited amounts of money, but Harpers helped to create some of the happiest memory’s of my life, l will never forget them and their ‘family ‘of friendly drivers.
John Starkey
19/06/16 – 05:55
I worked for Harper Bros in their Heath Hayes office from 1962-1974,then Midland Red 1974-1978. I did a short period of working at the ‘Gloria De Luxe Office in Sutton Coldfield, before moving to Head Office. Best time of my working life.
Pam Harris (Nee Dodd)
08/11/17 – 06:24
I remember Harpers Buses fondly from my early days. We lived in Stonnall and my Nan lived in Commonside Brownhills so we either got a bus to Streets Corner or the Brownhills bus to Freezeland Lane. We then moved to Aldridge and continued to use Harpers buses. Even our Bruce dog used them – he was a pretty savvy Corgi-Collie cross. He’d always gone on the buses with Mom and Dad and knew enough to hop on a bus at the corner of Leighswood Ave and Northgate, get under the seat and then get off at Streets Corner and go to my Great Grandad’s house and then, having found no one in, trot off round to Nan’s. He did a similar trick but went back to our old house in Main St Stonnall before going down to my Gran’s in Cartersfield Lane. He got away with this because the conductor, Levy who many will remember, knew him.
Chris Smith
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
07/03/20 – 07:25
As a lad of 17 I lived in Clacton-on-Sea and often took one of Suttons Coaches to London to visit my Grandfather. I very clearly recall the delivery in 1947 of New Leyland Tigers and AEC Regal III’s. A couple of times I travelled on the inaugural trip of one of these vehicles. While I am almost 90 I still recall those trips very clearly. I have trawled the web looking for pictures of these and my only find was A Tiger LVX 679 and LVX 680. I have found info on AEC Regal OTW 50 but no pictures. Do you have any ideas about places to look.
David Hawksworth
09/03/20 – 06:39
David if you use the search facility on the “Bus lists on the web” site it will bring up results from the “flickr” photo sharing site of OTW 50.
Stephen Howarth
09/03/20 – 06:40
A gentleman called David Troughton wrote a book on Suttons of Clacton a few years ago. I have a copy but can’t find a supplier on the internet.
H & E Burnham (Worcester) 1948 AEC Regal III 6821A Burlingham C33F
CFK 340 is an AEC Regal III with Burlingham C33F body from the fleet of Burnham’s of Worcester. She dates from 1948 and, in this view in Winchester on 1 January, 2012, she was in Roger Burdett’s collection. I believe that, despite the Worcester address and registration, the firm’s base was actually in Bromyard, Herefordshire, in another case of geography and the Post Office not being in agreement. Ealing might be expected to have a TW or UB postcode, as it is in the old Middlesex, but it has a London W5 mark.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
27/07/15 – 06:48
This photo has cheered me up on a very soggy Sunday morn! I’m not sure I’ve ever seen many early post-war Burlingahm bodies; this one being very traditional and attractive. To me the AEC chromed rads always look more stylish that the Leyland ones. I notice that Bromyard is equidistant from both Worcester and Hereford at 15 miles, with Bromyard about 6 miles from the county boundaries. Maybe they tended to go into Worcester more frequently/easily. Postal addresses, then postcodes, have a mystery of their own. Yateley’s in Hampshire, but postally it’s Yateley, Camberley, Surrey! I think that they were related to sorting offices, not an important distinction now. And why do folk still stick with Middx, 40-odd years after what was left of it disappeared?
Chris Hebbron
27/07/15 – 06:48
This vehicle was restored by brothers, John, and the late Alan Purvis, of Seaburn, which to the North of the river Wear, but is part of Sunderland. Although it was never part of their fleet, after restoration it was in the livery of Carney of Sunderland, it was later restored to original, but I don’t know if that was before or after it changed hands.
Ronnie Hoye
27/07/15 – 06:50
A photo of the rear of coach CFK 340 shows
H & E Burnham Ltd, Bromyard Worcestor Worcestor 3321 Bromyard 187
The H & E Burnham Ltd. being in a half circle format with Bromyard and Worcestor as above followed by the two telephone numbers.
Alan Coulson
28/07/15 – 05:55
Ronnie, It was repainted before it changed hands being part of the sale to Mr R. Smith of Hexham in Northumberland in 1990’s remaining with him till 2009 when it went to Steve Morris at Quantock Heritage at Taunton a year later it is seen in Rodger Burdetts collection in Coventry where it remains today still in original Burnhams livery.
Alan Coulson
29/07/15 – 06:21
We used to live in a small village in South Oxfordshire…. Our local post office delivery centre was part of the Central Reading Post Office area, so although we lived over 20 miles from Reading, our postal address and postcode always ended in Reading, Berkshire and bore no relation to our actual location….This also made dealing with the local South Oxfordshire District Council a bit of a hit and miss affair as more often than not they used to refer us to Reading Council whenever we asked for their help or made enquiries about services…. To this day, it causes some confusion, especially when using drop down menus on web sites….
Stuart C
29/07/15 – 08:41
The approximate date of this photo is 1980 no later than 1981 definitely is CFK 340. Not a good photo but original is ageing. Original Burnham livery from 1948 after this it is then seen in Carney livery.
Alan Coulson
10:51
A fascinating photo of ‘before’! Is this when she was rescued, Alan? Restoration was certainly a daunting task.
Chris Hebbron
29/07/15 – 10:53
Burnhams had a garage in Worcester 50/60’s corner of what is now City Walls rd & St Martins Gate. They had a school contract between Dines Green & Henwick Grove the coach I remember was also a Burlingham but had the more rounded Seagull body it was described as a two stroke.
Richard
29/07/15 – 17:24
I know John Pervis was involved in the restoration of another of Burnham’s vehicles almost identical to this one. DFK214. Pure speculation on my part, perhaps they were bought as a pair, with the hope of making one good one from what was available between the two? They both made it into preservation, and as far as I know are both still around
Ronnie Hoye
29/07/15 – 17:25
The vehicle broke piston rings at Easter and is off the road awaiting delivery of a replacement engine promised but with no confirmed date. The seats internally still have horse hair and coil springs and are exceptionally comfortable. Hopefully will be round in 2016
Roger Burdett
30/07/15 – 08:38
Chris, Yes to your question,I believe couple of panels removed to eye extent of rot. Restoration only took 8 months mainly after working hours and weekends a accolade to the Two brothers Alan & John to the extremely high standard, the refurbished coach was soon to be seen on Show/rally circuit. Reference your soggy Sunday words next time we have a day like that I will post a photo of DFK 214 another Ex.Burnhams I had this in mind to run after CFK ends of which I have more detail.
Ronnie, Both CFK 340 & DFK 214 were almost complete coaches each refurbished from own units with spares obtained from another coach. Not only bought as a pair but of 3, was another EFK 760 this was likewise almost complete. All 3 coaches were new to Burnhams. CFK 340 5/1948, a MK III C33F. DFK 214 7/1949, also a MK III C33F, EFK 760 7/1951 was a MK IV C39C. All 3 are currently in preservation.
Alan Coulson
31/07/15 – 08:34
Type DFK 214 into your search engine, and you will be directed to this site of Pervis Bros, bus restorers. On the site there are photos of several of their restorations, including one of this vehicle in the livery of Carney, standing alongside a restored DFK. There is also a photo of the two together in Burnham livery.
Ronnie Hoye
31/07/15 – 14:00
Here is a restored view now in R. W.Carney livery. 8 months on from the view in Burnhams livery prior to restoration.
Alan Coulson
01/08/15 – 06:28
Alan, for a number of years there is/was an Alexander Bluebird ‘Northern’ half cab Burlingham bodied ‘Daimler? I think, parked up in former NCT depot at Slatyford. Is that it behind CFK?
Ronnie Hoye
28/08/15 – 06:49
Burnhams were Worcester-based and had NO connection with Bromyard. A large rural stage network was sold to Midland Red in 1938 along with a Worcester- Aberystwyth express service- Burnhams then carried on as private hire operators. All this is confirmed info; what follows isn’t checked, but I seem to remember that they carried on in a small way until c1975 when everything was auctioned off – including some elderly stock which had been kept on, decaying gently a la Mulleys of Ixworth.This is presumably how CFK etc survived.
Phil Drake
01/09/15 – 07:13
Looking again carefully at the rear of the unrestored vehicle should solve the Bromyard Worcestershire discussion once and for all. It says “Bromyard AND Worcester” with no mention of a County. Thus I assume the company maintained bases in both locations.
Larry B
04/09/15 – 07:15
Ronnie. Yes you are correct well spotted. I have other similar photo’s showing more of both coaches. Without checking them my memory states it is BMS 415 if you input the reg. into a search engine there is photo of it standing alone in depot. I believe the photo of CFK/BMS may well been taking in lay-by outside Newcastle on old A1 back ground view of Town Moor with high rise flats in view. Lay by being a meeting point on way to Scottish show in 1987. Alan Coulson.
Alan Coulson
01/10/15 – 06:18
Phil Drake, I’m grateful for your comments regarding Burnhams. Having done extensive history of CFK 340,(DFK 214-EFK 760). I find the NO connection Bromyard strange as all the photo’s of Burnhams show both Worcestor and Bromyard with telephone numbers. My information is they were known to have premises in Cornmarket at Clifton on Teme, Worcestor and Rowberry Street Bromyard. I have recently seen photo of Leyland Cheetah coach with Burlingham body new to them in 1938 the year they were sold to Midland Red showing Bromyard and Worcestor. In this photo the and is in capitols. AND, in a rear view of coach.In all other photo’s the and is seen as & this is clearly seen on unrestored coach. CFK 340 was purchased in the 2nd auction 1979 from the big shed at Clifton. Any further comments are gratefully accepted. Larry B. As mentioned above my notes show company operated from both Worcestor and Bromyard. Thank you both for your comments.
Alan Coulson
07/08/17 – 06:29
I was friends with one of the sons of the company owner in the ’70s. There were a couple of retired buses in their garden in Kempsey. I believe that they were the first vehicles the firm owned and were of sentimental value. Might this be one of them?
Sam Thompson
07/08/17 – 16:12
My understanding was that the vehicles were kept long after the operator side ceased.
Roger Burdett
10/08/17 – 14:29
Sam. I would say CFK 340 may not have been one of the vehicle’s in the garden as it is known they ran earlier coaches CFK being new in 1948. From earlier in the thread I have seen a photo of a Leyland in 1938 around the time the company was split from stage services to private hire this coach was in all white livery.
Alan Coulson
12/08/17 – 07:35
Disgraced itself this week with an Autovac failure on the A46, needed a suspended tow back to base.
Roger Burdett
13/08/17 – 07:29
Commiserations, Roger!
Chris Hebbron
06/10/20 – 10:06
I have only just found this page, but I have read it all with great interest, as I well remember the former Burnham’s garage in Spring Gardens, Worcester. When I used to look through the gaps between the doors in the late 1970’s there were seven coaches laid up in there. They were two Bedford OB’s, the two Regal III’s (CFK 340 and DFK 214), and three Regal IV’s with Burlingham Seagull bodies. I have only recently found my sheet of paper where I drew out their details and positions within the garage. At the same time there was also a derelict coach standing out in the open at Bromyard, which I believe may have been either CNP 504 or 505. Any further information on that one would be welcome.
Terry Jones
06/10/20 – 17:02
A small correction to my earlier comment – CFK 340 was not one of the seven in the garage at Worcester. DFK 214 was in there, but the other half-cab was a Leyland LZ2 Cheetah, CAB 630, also with a Burlingham body, according to my notes at the time.
It would seem that the radiator wasn’t just a disguise – the accompanying comment to both photos says it was fitted with an AEC 7.7 litre engine and radiator.
Chris Hebbron
28/11/20 – 07:05
DFK 214 was last known registered BG-TP-21 in Holland see this link still in Mulleys livery.
Looking at the photo of the coach’s inside, the restoration was superbly done. For those of us of a certain age and recall vehicles like this running about when we were young, it’s amazing to think that the vehicle is 63 years old!
Chris Hebbron
17/03/21 – 16:05
DFK 214 while in Holland most photos show coach kept in Mulleys livery Red roof and front wheel guards in Red a current batch of photos show theses to be in Green can anyone state if when in Holland it was repainted in Green to its Holland owner or was it a livery change back to new owner in Uk. In recent photos it is still showing Holland registration plate maybe re-registered in UK it may be DFK 214 once again. DFK 214 was new in 7-1949 pleased to see it returned to UK in 3-2021 72 years on the road. Both CFK 340 and DFK 214 were both restored to a high standard immaculate interiors with top class exterior liveries – hopefully they will remain road worthy for a number of years yet.
Alan Coulson
18/03/21 – 06:28
It would appear that at some point it got painted from red to green in Holland. Apparently its now been sold back to UK to a buyer in Seaford. This would point to Seaford & District who have a large heritage fleet.
John Wakefield
18/03/21 – 06:30
Not gone to Seaford & District.
John Wakefield
18/03/21 – 14:58
Going to Marshopper Ltd.
John Wakefield
21/03/21 – 07:13
That’s a surprise-do they know what they are letting themselves in for?
In 1958, the Northern General Group took delivery of 53 Leyland PD3/4 vehicles. To the best of my knowledge, they were their first 30ft double deck buses; they were also the last rear entrance, although not the last half cabs, that particular label went to the Routemasters of 1963/4. I know a few half cabs were drafted in post NBC, but that was after the lunatics had taken control of the asylum.
The independence NGT allowed its subsidiaries in vehicle choice and specification has been discussed before on this site, and here is another example. 13 were ordered by Sunderland District Omnibus YPT 286 to 298; 286/298 They were primarily bought for use on SDO’s longer routes, and had Burlingham H41/32RD bodies, and very smart they looked in the understated Navy blue and white livery.
The remainder were all H41/32R MCW Orion bodies.
3 for Tyneside NNL 48 to 50; 48/50 Sage green and cream.
5 for Gateshead & District HCN 475 to 479; 75/79 Chocolate and cream.
20 for Northern YPT 825 to 484; 1825/1844 BET red and cream.
12 for Percy Main of which ten AFT 224 to 233; 224/233 for Tynemouth & District and two AFT 234 and 235; 234/235 for Wakefields Motors Ltd. All twelve in BET red and cream.
I think its fair to say that the Orion would not be everyone’s first choice for favourite body, and the least said about the early ones the better. However, lessons were learned and these 1958 versions were a vast improvement on those on the earlier Guy Arab’s and Leyland PD2’s. As was the practice with Gateshead and District, theirs had a Newcastle Corporation style destination layout, but that and different liveries apart, outwardly, all the Orion’s looked to be pretty much the same. The interiors were finished in brown with Rexene covered seats. However, the 12 for Percy Main were finished to a much higher interior specification, as well as a different colour, ‘green’ they had moquette upholstered seats. Shortly after delivery, the front number plates were moved from the radiator to the front panel below the windscreen. AFT 930, had an extended life as a driver training vehicle, and I’m pleased say that it has survived into preservation, and is currently in the extremely capable hands of North East Bus Preservation Trust Ltd where it is undergoing extensive restoration. There was also a Sunderland District Omnibus example ‘YPT 289’ which was listed as awaiting preservation, but it seems to have dropped off the radar, does anyone know anything about it?
AFT 229 fleet number 229 is pictured above round the back of Percy Main depot, and looks to have just arrived from MCW, but in fairness, their vehicles were always well turned out, but this was in an age before ‘pride’ became an outdated idea that was surplus to requirements.
Ronnie Hoye 01/2016
28/01/16 – 09:55
‘The front number plates were moved from the radiator to the front panel below the windscreen’. I have often wondered why, when the majority of operators were content to have the front number plate in the traditional position below the radiator, some chose to locate them in odd places. Below the cab windscreen might have been something to do with better visibility than down at ground level. But why have them up on the waistrail, beneath the destination indicator? Southdown had consecutive batches of buses in this period with number plates ‘up there’ and blow the radiator. So there seems to have been no company policy. And Barton was famous for putting adverts down below the radiator ‘Parcels by Bus’, for example, with the number plate high up on the body. Clearly, they weren’t worried about road dirt obscuring the number plate, as it would have been their own advert that would have been obscured. Was it to do with identification of buses in the depot? Then surely prominent fleet numbers would have been the answer and operators have total control of where these are sited. Does anybody here know the reason ?
Petras409
28/01/16 – 11:39
Usually when operators moved the number plate from the radiator onto the bodywork it was to allow radiators to be swapped from one bus to another without having to swap the plate as well.
John Stringer
28/01/16 – 16:08
YPT 289 is included on the NEBPT’s list of preserved buses with a North-East connection, dated 27/2/14, and that seems to be regarded as the ‘current’ list. It’s given as awaiting restoration, with owner Ritchie, Peterborough. Is there reason to suspect that its status has recently changed?
David Call
29/01/16 – 07:11
I find it fascinating to note the allocated registration series of these buses. Clearly Northern General allowed it’s subsidiaries to use their local office for their particular batch, so we have, AFT, HCN, NNL, and YPT. One (AFT) is just starting a three letter forward series, one (HCN) is about a third through, one (NNL) just over half-way, and the other (YPT) is the last in a forward series, about to start reverse issues. Quite fascinating when all these issuing offices were in the same area! No doubt that all changed in the 1974 sort-out.
Michael Hampton
29/01/16 – 17:35
Yes Michael, prior to 1974, apart from vehicles acquired by way of a takeover, all vehicles new to United, were registered in Darlington ‘HN’, whereas NGT group vehicles were registered in several different authority areas. Vehicles new to Tyneside were Northumberland ‘JR-NL or TY’ Tynemouth & District and Wakefields Motors were Tynemouth ‘FT’. SDO were County Durham ‘PT or UP’ and Gateshead & District were Gateshead ‘CN’. A handfull of Northern vehicles were registered in South Shields ‘CU’ the remainder were all either Gateshead or County Durham. Strangely enough, Sunderland had two registrations, ‘BR & GR’ but neither seem to have been used by the NGT Group
