The City of Oxford Motor Services 1958 AEC Regent V LD3RA Park Royal H65R
The Regent V was in production from 1954 until 1968 there was a prototype Regent IV which had an underfloor engine but there was not much interest so it never went into production. According to research the only difference between the Regent III chassis and the Regent V was that the latter’s rear springs were ½ inch wider. There was two differences though the first being the obvious cosmetic one of the introduction of the AEC wide-bonnet front end with the more square traditional AEC radiator. The former exposed radiator style was still available until 1960 and quite a lot were built that way. The second but not so obvious was the direct selection epicyclic gearbox to replace the preselective gearbox of the earlier Regents, although about 100 were built with preselect gearboxes for a few operators, the normal clutch and synchromesh was also available. Engine wise the Regent V had the usual AEC 7·7 and 9·6 engines and in 1966 a 11·3 litre version became available, for some reason in 1955-56 the Gardner 5LW or 6LW was available no 5LW were built but a few operators took some 6LWs.
This vehicle was subsequently acquired by Provincial in 1970, becoming their no.80. It was one of seven purchased, the others being 970/2/5-7 CWL.
Stephen Didymus
05/08/19 – 07:14
May I respectfully correct a detail in your Regent V Chassis code panel? The ‘D’ is always for ‘Double-Deck’. So MD3RV is Medium/ Double-deck/ Synchro box/ RHD/ Vacuum brakes. ‘D’ is NOT part of ‘Medium’!
The City of Oxford Motor Services 1956 AEC Regent V MD3RV Weymann H30/26RD
City of Oxford I think were one of AECs most loyal customers. According to my 1963 British Bus Fleets South Central book it states that as from 1927 apart from a batch of 5 Dennis Loline Mark IIs delivered in 1961 with AEC engines by the way, all their vehicles were AECs. Interestingly enough the next batch of vehicles ordered after the Lolines were AEC Bridgemasters. What I find strange, and I hope someone can explain why it was that the Bridgemaster had been available from 1956, why wait until December 1961 to take delivery of their first batch. Not to mention the fact that they took delivery of 15 lowbridge Regent Vs as well as the 5 Lolines in the 56 – 61 period. As a matter of interest they also took delivery of 30 highbridge Regent V MDs and 16 LDs in the same period of which the vehicle in the above shot is one of the first. It was chassis number 29 of the MD variant and had as can be seen an exposed radiator rather than the more recognisable concealed version more associated with the Regent V. All City of Oxford 27ft Regent Vs were MDs (Medium Weight) having the smaller AEC AV470 7.68 litre six cylinder diesel engine. But they were not quite so loyal when it came to body builders Park Royal and Weymann were the norm for the double deckers, apart from a batch of 5 Regent Vs and the Lolines that had East Lancs bodies and the first batch of front entrance Regents that had bodies by Willowbrook. I am afraid that is where my information ends but if you know something that maybe of interest to others your comments are more than welcome.
I think you’re a little unfair about loyalty with bodywork. When you buy one car or bus at a time you can be loyal to one maker. When you bulk order you have to be aware of the capacity of the supplier – which is why most large operators (even London Transport) dual sourced. At least COMS managed fidelity to AEC – with which I would fully concur – and the two bodybuilders were among the acknowledged best at their craft at the time. [Lolines were only available late in Weymann’s life but maybe they were arguing with Dennis for an AEC option when the body style and finish of the Bridgemaster was truly dreadful.] Whatever the reasons; maroon, cream and duck-egg green AECs – that is the heyday of a superb operator.
David Oldfield
P.S.Re-reading Alan Townsin’s chapter on the Bridgemaster in his “Blue Triangle”….. The original version was attractive with curved profile and aluminium body but BET were likely to be the model’s biggest customer. They wanted steel frames and single skin domes, like the MCW Orion, and a wholesale re-think had to be made. Very few of the original Crossley built Bridgemaster’s were made before it was totally retooled and production moved to Park Royal from whence came the uglier production model. This probably helps answer why COMS didn’t buy Bridgemasters before 1961 – that and being on the end of a queue which would involve PRV vehicles for other customers. The Bridgemaster was now firmly based in London and would, or could, not be sub-let to Crossley or Roe.
I don’t know who took this photograph but I know the setting is Gloucester Green Bus Station in the heart of Oxford. Oxford Bus Co’s livery was absolutely gorgeous, restrained and stately but still gorgeous!!
George Taylor
23/03/13 – 08:02
Eventually this ended up with Wallace School of Transport as a driver trainer bus – I took my PSV test on it in 1970
Brian Lamb
23/03/13 – 12:28
Coming from a Leyland/Daimler Orion bodied stronghold on my visits to Oxford with my father in the late 1950s/early 1960s I always thought this batch had a certain refined air about it. Again, coming from the a place where the Orions were coated in acres or red or green the Oxford livery was to my eye very attractive. A few words on the Bridgemaster. Alan Townsin is, of course, correct regarding the BET demands for the Bridgemaster. The original bodies were developed from a specification drawn up at Park Royal but the final design and build was by Crossley at Errwood Road using the basic outline and many of the panel sizes of the then current Park Royal design it was also building. It is interesting to see that a few of the design touches of the original were incorporated into some orders throughout the production run see: www.brindale.co.uk/ Whilst Graham Hill’s information on the site is a little suspect e.g. his contention that the Lodekker (sic) had saturated the market leading to poor Bridgemaster sales, the pictures show well the versions of the final design though, as it is a Park Royal site, omit pictures of the Crossley version shown here: www.sct61.org.uk/ I was told by an ex Crossley employee who was there to the end that the transfer of the Bridgemaster to Park Royal, which was pretty much the final nail in the coffin of Crossley, would not have been so final had there been a commercially viable demand from non BET operators who would have specified the original body, leaving Park Royal to deal with the BET revamped design. As it was, no significant interest was shown and the shut down went ahead. Regarding Oxford’s order, whilst BET companies could deviate from group policy, at the time the group was pressurising its constituents to take the Bridgemaster. With a very much AEC dominated fleet Oxford found it hard to resist unlike Ribble, North Western and other fleets which had either a Leyland dominance or a more diverse fleet.
Phil Blinkhorn
26/03/13 – 06:38
While the redesigned Bridgemaster is widely regarded as a styling disaster, it is often forgotten that some of the rear-entrance examples were nothing of the kind, as is well illustrated by the photos of the Sheffield buses on Graham Hill’s site (see Phil’s brindale link above).
Peter Williamson
30/10/16 – 06:28
Watching a 1963ish Youtube video on the Outwell and Upwell Tramway I saw a familiar sight: a 1949 City of Oxford AEC Regent III with 56-seat highbridge Weymann bodywork stopping to pick up a lady—and here’s the less familiar bit—who was standing on the railway track. The by then diesel-hauled farm-produce trains that ran along the roadside made only a handful of trips a day so using the tracks as a bus-stop posed little danger. I couldn’t make out an operator’s name, but I’m sure someone here knows!
ps. I should have said that the film is Huntley Archives no 521. OFC 383 here appears to have platform doors, which I thought were fitted by Smiths of Reading on acquisition. Could this bus have passed from Smiths to a third life on the Fens? If so, that would date the picture to about 1966-67.
Ian Thompson
30/10/16 – 14:41
I think that the Regent III is OFC 390 which was acquired by Smith (Bluebell) of March in February 1962 and was fitted with doors for them. It lasted until March 1966.
Nigel Turner
30/10/16 – 16:21
I thought that the Oxford “Country Buses” – out of town services like Kidlington – of that eras had doors from new?
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1958 AEC Regent V LD3RA Park Royal H65R
975 CWL is an AEC Regent V of the LD3RA variety. She was new in 1958 and has a Park Royal body seating 65. New to City of Oxford as their 975, she is seen in the yard of the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton, still in Provincial (Gosport & Fareham) green and cream but with Hants & Dorset fleetname in NBC style. It’s April 1975 and she is between duties on the 47 Winchester service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
16/03/14 – 09:42
A beautifully balanced classic design. What were BET and PRV thinking when they let those dreadful steel framed monsters loose on the world. I cannot believe it was impossible to produce a better design – just because they had steel frames. As was pointed out recently, sticking a Beverley Bar outline on a Bridgemaster worked wonders at East Yorkshire.
David Oldfield
16/03/14 – 09:43
It’s a long time since I submitted this, because so many of you have been sending in far better views, but I have a vague recollection the original text said that she is preserved.
Pete Davies
16/03/14 – 11:55
With only 65 seats in a 30ft body, the legroom must have been quite generous!
Chris Barker
17/03/14 – 07:45
I have this listed as preserved in Kidlington but have never seen it.
Ken Jones
17/03/14 – 17:33
Yes – preserved awaiting restoration.
Philip Lamb
17/03/14 – 17:34
This picture sums up for me the confusion of the early NBC era. It’s a green Hants & Dorset bus, but it’s not H&D Tilling green. It’s in Provincial green/cream, but not their traditional style. It’s a BET origin bus operating for a former Tilling company. (OK, Hants & Dorset operated some AEC Regent III’s earlier). In the background is a Lodekka, presumably a Hants & Dorset bus, but in red, not in green! Well, it did all settle down of course to just red or green in NBC shades, until Confusion Stage 2 arrived with deregulation. Hants & Dorset survives (sort of) under the fleet name “Damory Coaches”, operating some stage services in Dorset in a rather non-descript grey livery. It’s part of Wilts and Dorset, which is part of Go Ahead. Yes, times have moved on. The Regent V in the picture does still look good, and was splendid in it’s original City of Oxford livery.
Michael Hampton
18/03/14 – 08:23
Very generous, Chris, most 30ft deckers of this layout were usually around the 73 seat mark.
Ronnie Hoye
18/03/14 – 10:55
These buses were known in Oxford as “Queens’ due to their size and indeed majestic appearance. 65 was later to become the standard COMs seating capacity for double-deckers with centre gangway in the upper saloon until the arrival of the first Fleetlines, following the first batch of Bridgemasters which seated 72. Subsequent Bridgemasters and the Renowns had a shortened rear overhang and were all 28-ft long 65-seat forward-entrance vehicles – not quite as roomy as the Queens! The five Lolines were forward-entrance 63-seaters.
Philip Lamb
18/03/14 – 10:57
I have always presumed that the reason for 65 seats in a 30ft body was in order to comply with an agreement with the staff in respect of maximum capacities – such agreements were common at the time. Having said that, Oxford’s first Bridgemasters (306-15) were 72-seaters – there may have been a ‘no standing passengers’ agreement, or restrictions on which routes they served. Anyone know the full story? Later Oxford Bridgemasters (316-28) and all the Renowns (329-71) were short 65-seaters. Oxford purchased sixteen 30ft Regent Vs in late 1957/early 1958 – eight with Weymann bodies (964-71) and eight Park Royal (972-9). All were H37/28R while with Oxford. As far as I am aware, all the above sixteen went for further service with other operators after sale by Oxford. Stevensons (of Spath) upseated 966 and fitted platform doors, making it H41/32RD. Laycocks of Barnoldswick fitted doors to 968, but left the seating as it was – as 968 was replacing an accident-damaged 53-seater, the capacity perhaps wasn’t seen as critical. Were any of the others upseated, or fitted with doors?
David Call
18/03/14 – 13:48
Michael, the Hants & Dorset Lodekka with the T style indicator display you mention is XPM 47, new to Brighton Hove & District.
Pete Davies
18/03/14 – 17:26
Thank you, Pete D for the info about the red Lodekka in the background – doesn’t it just add to the glorious (or inglorious) mix of events at that time? Although of Tilling origin, it’s original colours were neither tilling red or green, but a handsome red and cream! Also, a correction. I have passed several Damory vehicles today, and all were a deep blue, quite smart if admiring modern vehicles. Perhaps the grey was a passing phase, or my poor memory.
Michael Hampton
19/03/14 – 07:27
No, Michael – our successors in title to the Hants & Dorset “COMPANY” name, if not the fleetname, are like the rest of the ‘Go South Coast’ group in that they don’t seem able to keep a livery for long. Could be Worst (f), of course!!!
Pete Davies
19/03/14 – 07:28
969 gained platform doors when owned by Leon of Finningley.
Keith Clark
19/03/14 – 16:27
On an isolated trip into Damory country some years ago, I seem to recall seeing the buses in light grey and white, perhaps another passing phase, Michael!
Chris Hebbron
20/03/14 – 17:21
I don’t recall seeing any grey, Chris, but certainly turquoise has appeared in the past!
Pete Davies
22/03/14 – 08:23
I did a double-take when I saw this photo as I thought Pete Davies must have been standing next to me when he took it. However, my photo of this bus in the same place has a different route number and different vehicles in the background. H&Ds vehicle shortage was so bad at this time that I used to cycle to Shirley Road and Grosvenor Place every Sunday morning to see what had turned up that week – this one was a surprise though. I believe it lasted 5 weeks before the crews blacked it! I was told that the cab window had a habit of randomly dropping out over the bonnet!
Phil Gilbert
22/03/14 – 15:37
Phil G, most of my views at this location were taken during the working week, rather than at weekends, and usually during the lunch break.
Pete Davies
24/05/14 – 08:30
I used the ‘-CWL’ Regents in the late ’60s when travelling on the old ‘3’ service that ran along Walton Street, and they shared the route with (mostly)Renowns and Bridgemasters until the sudden arrival of the first ‘G’ reg., N.C.M.E. bodied Fleetlines that must have been the last ‘true’ Oxford’ double-deckers to keep both the old livery and the single-panel front route-number/destination display. With the Daimlers, a new, racier, ‘go faster’, ‘Oxford’ transfer appeared, smaller and less ‘stuffy’ than the old one. As for the roomy Regents, I always thought that the curvy bodywork of the second, Park Royal, batch helped redeem the plainness that came with the tin front: I never thought that any of these buses would survive their (routine) early retirement by C.O.M.S. and it was a surprise to find that ‘975’ may still be around as another potential showcase for the attractive old ‘Oxford’ livery (the ‘magic’ of the scheme was lost, in my view, when the it became a plain, two-colour affair).
I’ve been away from the Oxford area for decades and came across the correspondence on the ‘long Regents’ by accident. If my observation about ‘975’ gets posted, could I ask if anyone can explain why Oxford was flooded with ‘alien’ two-man double-deckers (such as Aldershot & District’s Loline 1s and East Kent’s Regent Vs) in the late ’60s? Was this an early manifestation of the N.B.C. homogenisation that would bring the inevitable Bristol VRs, or was their some kind of operational crisis that required a ‘loan out’ from other operators.
John Hardman
25/05/14 – 09:28
Re vehicle shortages in Oxford. In 1981/82 I was working in “The City” and attended a talk given by the head of City of Oxford M.S. He said that every time the hourly pay rates increased in the Cowley car factory, the mechanical/engineering staff left Cowley Road depot for more pay. So it could well have been a lack of engineering staff, until the next pay rise on the bus side of the equation. Eventually COMS moved the engineering facility to Witney, so as to make it uneconomical to commute to the car factory in Cowley.
Dave Farrier
25/06/14 – 08:19
Dorset Transit buses were white, light grey and orange- there were a couple of Leyland National 1’s at least- not sure if there were other types. I have seen pictures of them parked up amongst Damory vehicles, but don’t know if there was a connection.
Mark
02/05/16 – 06:40
Reference the vehicle shortages, that was indeed the case – engineering staff shortages. It became a major embarrassment at Oxford (and further afield) in the early days of NBC. So they flooded the streets with unconventional vehicles (for Oxford streets) that were running well while the maintenance was transferred to other companies.
Alan O. Watkins
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/10/17 – 07:02
Just a note to say that 975CWL is still alive, albeit still awaiting finishing off. 75% of the major work has been completed but other projects have recently had priority and I would also like to see 975 completed before I “pop off” Regarding the vehicle shortages, yes staff was a part off the problem but a major factor was the lack of AEC engine parts, notably 470 & 505 pistons and liners which were in very short supply and caused most of the COMS fleet of Reliances and Swifts to be off the road at the same time. Also a lot of the cooling systems were in bad shape due to the resistance to using anti-freeze in the early sixties……………and it came back to bite them! When a new Chief Engineer was appointed in 1973 there was much needed investment carried out in the Engineering department with new facilities for annual MOT preparation made at Chipping Norton Depot, not Witney although this depot was also enlarged to cope with the extra allocation. In 1973 25 Fords were introduced to replace the Reliances………but that is another story!
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1957 AEC Regent V LD3RA Park Royal H37/28R
Taken at Hoeford depot on 30/03/69 having been recently transferred from City of Oxford where it had been No H972 this photo shows newly painted Provincial No 60 an LD3RA AEC Regent V with a Park Royal H37/28R body registration number 972 CWL delivered to COMS in December 1957. As a fan of the AEC concealed radiator and the AEC marque in general I find this and the elegant 30ft long Park Royal body an irresistible combination, the only way the effect could be improved would be for it to be in the original superb Oxford livery. This was taken on the same occasion as my posting of the Guy Wulfrunian.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
14/04/16 – 06:05
Very nice shot Diesel Dave. I too am a fan of the Regent V in all its forms and this is a most handsome version. It would indeed have looked the bees knees in City of Oxford livery, but at least in your photo it’s paintwork looks fresh – probably just repainted out of Provincial’s distinctive ‘jade’ green livery. (Don’t ask me the shade as I haven’t a clue as to what is was officially called!). The NBC leaf green and white also seems to emphasise the length of the AEC nicely, which brings me to the date of the photo Dave, as NBC corporate livery didn’t make its debut until late 1972 I’m afraid. The Regent is wearing the original white ‘Double N’ arrowhead alongside the fleetname. This was replaced some years later by the red and blue arrowhead within a white square. Sadly I did not get to know the Provincial fleet until the early ‘eighties, by which time the fleet was standardising on the Leyland National. Mind you I was fortunate in seeing Provincial’s Bristol-ECW RELL in the wonderful ‘Anniversary livery’ in Gosport a few times while staying with friends, which gave a tantalising glimpse of life before leaf green.
Brendan Smith
14/04/16 – 06:06
Very nice view, Dave. Thanks for posting.
Pete Davies
14/04/16 – 06:06
As the NBC corporate image was introduced in the summer of 1972, I don’t think the stated date in 1969 is correct.
Nigel Frampton
14/04/16 – 08:11
The “jade green” originally used by Provincial was… “Provincial Green”! When Provincial 35 (’36 Regent BOR 767) first came into preservation in 1969 and needed a repaint, Dulux were able to call up the code and make the correct shade of Dulux Coach Paint – for the first time in many years. Provincial later turned to a ‘stock’ colour (I don’t know the details of this) which was very similar, but different enough for some enthusiasts to say that the colour on 35 was ‘wrong’!
David Chapman
14/04/16 – 10:28
Very low seating capacity for a thirty foot double-decker, you would normally expect a bus of this size to be H41/32R. Must have had excellent legroom, unlike some modern buses!
Don McKeown
15/04/16 – 07:15
Yes, Don. That very discussion was included in members’ comments in respect of my contribution on the Hants & Dorset (ex Oxford Via Provincial) 975CWL.
Pete Davies
15/04/16 – 07:16
I suspect that the date is closer to 1973/4 as I seem to recall that 975CWL was in use by Hants and Dorset around then and may have been transferred around the same time.
Steve Barnett
15/04/16 – 07:17
All the Aldershot & District Dennis Lolines had 68 seat bodies by East Lancs, Alexander and Weymann, and were superb vehicles to ride in (and to drive). As Don suggests, modern buses with their closely spaced hard plastics “shaped” (but not to my contours) seating are excruciatingly uncomfortable.
Roger Cox
15/04/16 – 07:17
These buses were known as ‘Queens’ by their Oxford crews due to their sheer size. I seem to recall that the relatively low seating capacity had something to do with local union agreements, but I stand to be corrected. Sister bus H975 is preserved awaiting restoration.
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Daimler Transport Vehicles 1968 Daimler Roadliner SRC6/SRP8 Plaxton DP53F
The rear engined Daimler Roadliner powered by the compact and powerful Cummins V6-200 emerged in 1964, but production did not really get under way until 1966, with West Riding, Black & White and Potteries being early users of the type. Reliability problems with the engine and toggle link suspension soon became apparent, and operators began cancelling their orders in the light of service experience. In May 1968 Daimler became part of the British Leyland Motor Corporation, and the Roadliner was offered with the option of the Perkins V8-510 engine with hopes of improved reliability. A new Plaxton bodied Roadliner demonstrator, KKV 800G, still with the troublesome Cummins engine, was built in August 1968. This bus subsequently received the Perkins 8 cylinder power unit, probably before its appearance as shown in the Demonstration Park at the 1968 Olympia show. The Perkins option did not save the Roadliner and only some 33 SRP8 examples were built. KKV 800G subsequently entered the City of Oxford fleet in 1970 as number 639.
