‘Mini-bus opens new field for city firm’ – says the Sheffield Telegraph newspaper in January 1966. Sheffield Transport had agreed to buy a prototype of a new design of a small bus developed by Cravens Ltd, a Company which had built a number of single and double deck bodies for Sheffield before and after the second world war. This new design would enable the Company to produce a range of different capacity buses with up to 33 seats. So far as I am aware, it remained unique. It was certainly the only Bedford bus to be operated by Sheffield. The bus was originally used by the Transport Committee and for private hire but it later it did migrate on to normal service. I remember it especially on the circuitous route 44 to Bakewell via Ladybower and Bamford which wasn’t noted for a lot of patronage. I’m sure it must have been adapted later for one man operation as I remember the 44 being an early OMO conversion. However here is the bus outside East Bank Garage on 19 June 1966 (it must have been nearly new) on the occasion of a tour of Sheffield by the Leeds and District Transport News. The bus was renumbered 1 in April 1967 and was sold to the local King Edward VII Grammar School in 1973 – presumably at the expiry of its first seven year certificate of fitness.
An interesting might have been.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
04/07/12 – 05:20
Looks ungainly now and I fear it did then as well. Looks as if it ought to have a wheelchair lift in the back (needs it with that step!). The test here is whether it felt like a van with seats or a coachbuilt….coach. Small buses/coaches are fine, if that is what they are, and don’t shake themselves (and their passengers) to bits.
Joe
04/07/12 – 05:21
Ian, your final paragraph stuns me. I left KES in the summer of 1971 and kept in touch, through two members of staff in particular, who were mentors and very important to me with my professional development. …..and yet I wasn’t aware of this. I am a professional musician and retired music teacher – so one was the Head of Music. The other was an incredible guy who was also an MOT approved driving instructor, and advanced motorist, drove part-time for the real SUT and was a qualified fitter. Alan Finch got me through both the initial MOT and then the advanced driving tests first time and instilled in me a love of, and pride in, driving well and safely. Presumably he was instrumental in this purchase – but it seems to have passed me by. Sadly Alan died a couple of years ago. Bearing in mind it was built at the same time that Cravens opened their Neepsend Coachworks and supplied a number of Atlanteans (PDR1/2) to Sheffield, it always puzzled me that No 11 was built by “Cravens” Do we assume it was Cravens Homalloy – the unit that built commercial vehicle bodies and trailers?
David Oldfield
04/07/12 – 05:22
Seem to recall that the local enthusiasts used to call this vehicle the”Cabbage Wagon”
Stephen Bloomfield
04/07/12 – 05:24
Ian is quite right about most of the operational details. However, it was never converted for OMO use. A short time before it was withdrawn, I travelled home from work to on Weedon Street in the East End. On this particular occasion the Bedford/Craven 22 seater duplicated a Leyland Leopard/Burlingham 41 seater OMO saloon. Opting for the trip on 22, I was astonished that the vehicle was crew operated! Not a very economical bus for service!
Keith Beeden
04/07/12 – 08:37
Last time I saw it, was in ’79 and was owned by Greenthorpes garage at Darnall, incidentally 500 yards from where it was built! It was painted light turquoise blue with a darker blue band, and was named “Georgie Porgie”! Shame it wasn’t preserved as it was the last bus ever built by Cravens of Sheffield, but the last owners’ extortionate asking price resulted in no buyers and it eventually went for scrap.
Chris Morley
05/07/12 – 07:07
Can’t put a date to this recollection but I remember seeing this bus parked on the drive of a house in Barnburgh, a small village about 18 miles from Sheffield. Whether this was before or after Chris saw it at Darnall I can’t say.
Andrew Charles
06/07/12 – 07:17
I took slides of no 1 working service 190, Alsing Road to Darnall (terminated in Britannia Road) an also screened up for service 44. The body was built at the old Cravens works in Staniforth Road and adverts showed it as being a Cravens Homalloy body.
Stephen Bloomfield
10/07/12 – 06:49
I hesitate to argue with the mighty Keith Beeden, but it was definitely converted for OMO latterly, certainly by 1972. I travelled on it on the 44 at that stage. It was fitted up, as most Sheffield OMO buses were, for a TIM ticket machine- but not a powered one. I believe it only had a 12v electrical system whereas all other buses had the 24v necessary to drive a TIM power unit. I think its duty included trips on the 190, referred to above, before and after the couple of round trips on the 44 which were the entire M-F service on that route. It wasn’t used at weekends. There is an unconfirmed story that STD had an option on a second such bus which would have been used to provide Edale with a rail replacement bus service when BR applied to withdraw the Hope Valley local trains in 1966. When it was found that the replacement buses would cost more than retaining the trains, BR decided not to proceed with this plan and No1 remained unique.
Phil Drake
02/08/12 – 07:30
In reply to Phil Drake I appreciate his statement that the Sheffield Bedford number 1 was indeed OMO converted. Possibly my journey was taken when the equipment was not serviceable? I am humbled to have the term great applied! My interest in Sheffield matters is over some 75 years
Keith Beeden
02/08/12 – 07:32
Bedford VAS1. How many of these were built? Astons Coaches Marton had a Reading DRY 7877C (re-registered for some reason), Bodied one ex Davis Leicestershire who had two. How many Reading bodied ones were built?
David Aston
Typo on the registration I think, four numbers, probably a 7 too many.
20/12/15 – 08:30
The body is by Craven Homalloy Ltd, they also bodied a Leyland 90 for Standard Triumph at Coventry it was KWK 505F (pics on Flickr) it survives as a caravan in Cambridgeshire
John Wakefield
15/07/20 – 06:42
Have just been reading a Sheffield history website. The reason that I was unaware of its sale to King Edward VII was because it wasn’t. It was sold to King Ecgbert School some five miles away on the Derbyshire border – between Dore (service 50) and Totley (service 45).
David Oldfield
28/01/21 – 06:35
David, the website information is WRONG. This bus definitely went to King Edward VII Broomhill in the early 1970’s, I was there! It was looked after by Alan Finch who is mentioned above, assisted by a number of pupils. Possibly after your time Mr Finch set up a car workshop in the sheds on the Glossop Road boundary, next to the notorious outdoor toilets, and taught car maintenance as a subsidiary subject. If I remember rightly the car Mr Finch used for the driving lessons was a light blue Austin A60. The bus was repainted in the original Blue and Cream livery. The KES crest was added under the rear window, hand painted by a pupil who was good at art. A big leather car seat was added at the front left in what was originally luggage space, comfortable for a second teacher on trips out. Years later I did see the bus at Volvo Village and recognised it straight away.
Sam Wood
28/01/21 – 13:26
Sam. It is the sort of thing that Alan would do! [I left in the summer of 1971.] As I said, he got me through the basic MOT and then the advanced (IAM) driving tests in the “School Car”. Everything that you said is correct apart from one thing. The School Car was a 1956 Series II Morris Cowley, refitted with a 1500 engine to make it into an Oxford, with massive “L”s on the sides as well as front and aft. The workshop was indeed by the “Backs”. He drove an A110 Westminster and his wife a Wolseley 1500 (in the same colours as the school car). Lunchtime Road safety lessons were also part of the package and no one drove on the road until they could handle a car on Norton Airfield. Alan also used to regale us with stories of his holiday time exploits as a driver for SUT.
David Oldfield
07/08/21 – 05:24
David, Sorry for the late reply – I don’t look at this site very often. Thank you for the confirmations and corrections. I remember Alan Finch’s Westminster – we did a lot of work on that in the school’s workshop. We had a lot of trips in the Bus, always amused by the number of people at bus stops who put their hands out – no destination or route number but it was cream and blue and they wanted to get on! The furthest I remember going was to Jodrell Bank via Blue John cavern – the Mam Tor road was still open then. Somewhere I have a photo of the Bus taken from the Blue John entrance. The Bus was a tight fit through the school gate on Glossop Road, fortunately the head stones had already been removed which did help. I don’t remember the bus suffering any damage. I’d guess Alan Finch gave the teachers some tuition before they were let loose – it was quite a bit bigger than a normal minibus. At the time we were told the bus had been built for the Transport Department Band, but this doesn’t seem to be correct. I had doubts about this at the time, it did have about the right number of seats but apart from the space at front left there was no luggage space or boot, they would have needed a van for the instruments. Happy memories!
Sam Wood
16/08/21 – 05:45
Sam. Like many local authorities, Sheffield had a special vehicle for the use of the Transport Committee and other local dignitaries. This was 900, the 1958 Roe Dalesman AEC Reliance MU3RV. A bit of an indulgence, it was also available for private hire when not on its intended duties and latterly was used on the Derbyshire B & C routes. The poor councillors must have had a bit of a shock and a tremendous come down when they found out that the replacement, eight years later, was a Bedford VAS1 with weird bus bodywork – No 1.
East Midland Motor Services 1949 AEC Regent III RT Cravens H56R
You can almost smell the workshop in this view! This ex-London Transport Regent RT came to East Midland with the take-over of Wass, Mansfield in April 1958. D47 was gone in 1960 – to A1 Service, Ardrossan.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
26/05/13 – 10:31
Nice view, Les, and thank you for posting. I note that East Midland acquired this vehicle as part of the deal in buying Wass, but what did London Transport deem to be so “non standard” about Cravens and Saro bodies that they were sold out of the fleet so quickly?
Pete Davies
27/05/13 – 07:00
Splendid picture, there’s something altogether fascinating about views of buses undergoing repair or maintenance. Makes me want to go and brew a pot of extra strength ‘busman’s’ tea! What a pity KGK 750 didn’t make it into the East Midland fleet until after they’d switched over to the maroon livery, it would have looked a treat in the old biscuit, chocolate and cream scheme.
Dave Careless
27/05/13 – 07:01
The Cravens RTs were totally non standard with 5 bay construction. Not only were the body spares, particularly glass spares, non standard, the vehicles could not be processed through Aldenham works where body and chassis swaps were the rule, unless they were swapped with other Cravens bodied vehicles due to the way the bodies were mounted. As this did not fit the, by mid 1950s, maintenance regime the Cravens vehicles were sold off. In any event they had been a stop gap to cover delivery delays at Park Royal and Weymann. The SARO vehicles were much more standard but there were enough differences to make them cuckoos in what was very much a Park Royal/Weymann nest.
Phil Blinkhorn
27/05/13 – 07:02
The Cravens bodies were not to London Transport design but used the standard Cravens shell with London Transport features. Most noticeably they were of five-bay construction rather than four. I wasn’t aware that the Saunders bodies were short-lived, and Ian’s Bus Stop site www.countrybus.org/RT/RT3s.htm says they weren’t.
Peter Williamson
27/05/13 – 07:03
Five bay construction whilst all other RT family members were four bay, perhaps?
Tony Martin
27/05/13 – 07:04
Pete, the Craven-bodied RT’s were merely Craven’s standard fare modified to look something like standard RT bodies. The fronts were flatter (I preferred them), they had five-bays and the back curved, hunch-backed, above the rear platform window, itself less wide and offset to the offside. The rear number plate was also further to the right. They were not jig-built and useless for standard Aldernham overhauls. I’m not so sure that the SaRo versions had shorter lives with LTE; they were entirely standard in all respects, to my knowledge. Here’s a rear offside three-quarter view of a Craven’s RT. The five bay layout made the downstairs windows finish slightly further back than usual,although the side route number fitting was in the usual place. Therefore the gap between the two was less. To the average passenger, it is unlikely they’d notice the difference. Two survive, both with Ensign, one red and one green. www.flickr.com/photos/
Chris Hebbron
27/05/13 – 07:06
I’ve done a little more digging, Pete, about the SaRo bodies. They were strong and fully compatible with RT bodies from the usual suppliers, although they had slight weakness with the front bulkhead, corrected at first overhaul. The only reason they were withdrawn a little earlier than others was because they had front roofboxes. Nevertheless, some lasted a full 20 years,albeit as learner vehciles latterly.
Chris Hebbron
27/05/13 – 09:02
Chris, were the SARO bodies exchanged in the normal way in the Aldenham programme? As top box bodies were considered non standard from the mid 1950s I was under the impression that they weren’t after first overhaul, to avoid non standard bodies being mated with the newer chassis.
Phil Blinkhorn
27/05/13 – 09:03
Thanks for your responses, gents. I knew someone would be able to clarify!
Pete Davies
27/05/13 – 09:03
Although I’ve always been a fervent admirer of the wonderful standard RT (and RTL/RTW), both as a passenger and as a driver, I have equal enthusiasm for the fascinating Cravens version also. The five bay appearance fits in very well with the general handsome RT profile, and the various other smaller differences add to the individual appeal of “The Cravens.” As far as I’m aware the only difference from standard in the appearance of the Saro bodies was the position of the offside route stencil frame – oh and, once in a lifetime, the need to reduce the tyre pressures/height in order to “escape” from Anglesey under the portals of the Menai Straits bridge.
Chris Youhill
27/05/13 – 16:38
Since no-one has yet mentioned London Transport’s perennial disposal of perfectly good buses at a ridiculously young age (Cravens RTs, RWs, DMSs etc), perhaps I should be the one to set the cat amid the pigeons! The usual excuses given for these premature disposals (standardisation, inability to cope with the London environment, and so on) are transparently so much guff when one considers the loss of barely depreciated assets. In every case it would have been cheaper to hang on to these perfectly good vehicles and send LT engineers out into the real world to learn how to maintain them. I await the barrage of counter-arguments from LT apologists (or, as I like to think of them, fetishists…)
Neville Mercer
27/05/13 – 16:38
It would be interesting to know which depot this was, I would say either Mansfield or Worksop. Wass Brothers operated a busy service from Mansfield to Clipstone, Edwinstowe and Ollerton, they bought three of these Craven RT’s in 1957, the others were JXC 219 and KGK 739, their livery was half maroon and half dark red and it’s difficult to tell from the picture if East Midland repainted them when Wass had only painted them a year earlier, or if they simply added a cream band. The destination box was certainly altered by East Midland, Wass had retained the LT style boxes and had painted their name in the bottom aperture. It seems a shame that these fine vehicles were disposed of by East Midland after just two years when only eleven years old but by 1960 they were taking large numbers of Atlanteans.
Chris Barker
28/05/13 – 07:41
This photo was taken in the old fitting shops at Worksop depot. The three of these ended their lives on Worksop town services. This was due to them being high bridge.
Ian Bennett
28/05/13 – 07:42
Bradford City Transport had 2 Saunders RTs in the batch of 25 bought from Birds dealer in 1958 Numbered 411 and 421 they lasted until 1968 with the odd spell stored in the TIN SHED at Thornbury.
Geoff S
28/05/13 – 07:43
I concur completely with your view of London Transport extravagance, Neville, and have made similar comments on this forum in the past. I joined LT(CB&C) at Reigate in a clerical capacity from school after ‘A’ Levels in August 1960, and was astounded at the curious attitude that prevailed throughout the organisation at every level. It was like being on a different planet, totally insulated from all outside influences. It was incapable of learning from others in the bus industry since it believed that London operating conditions were unique – its own experience therefore existed on a far higher plane than that of “provincial” people. Thus it made expensive mistakes that could have been mitigated by contacts outside its own closed mentality. The engineering system was typical of its centralised attitudes and slavish devotion to standardisation. The RT family (once those nasty, interloping Cravens and Saunders machines were removed), the RFs and the RMs were all designed, like Meccano, to be taken to pieces. Defective pieces could then be removed at garages and sent to Chiswick or Aldenham, and reconditioned parts installed in replacement. No proper analytical engineering expertise was required at garage level. The front line mechanical operation was maintained by fitters, not by engineers. Whatever the fault, major or minor, a replacement part was almost always seen as the solution. Another LT vehicle class that epitomised the cavalier approach to costs was the RC and the allied EC of BEA that LT ‘looked after’. Yes, the wet liner engines of the Reliance did give trouble, but swathes of British bus operators ran them successfully for years. The LT/BEA fleets spent much of their time in store and were disposed of after very short lives. Remarkably, the insular attitude of London’s public transport “experts” remains today, as may be seen in Boris Johnson’s preposterous, extravagant, ego inflating “Routemaster”. After their inevitably limited life in London, I don’t see many takers for those things on the secondhand market unless they are extremely cheap.
Roger Cox
28/05/13 – 07:44
The destination looks like Langold, which I think was a mining village near Worksop.
Geoff Kerr
28/05/13 – 07:45
As for your comment, Neville, about LTE’s disposal policy, I’m the first one to wonder why! Firstly, this policy did not extend across the whole of LTE. Non-standard trolleybuses, and there were several of them, led almost full lives alongside their compatratriots and I recall, when living in London, several Tube and sub- surface stock “non-standard” carriages also with their “standard” compatriots. The bus division certainly disliked non-standard vehicles and I even recall a very-sloping front-ended STL which, late in life, was rebuilt, all for the sake of four seats! A whole lot of already non-standard lowbridge green ST’s were tweaked such that not one of them looked the same in the end. TF1, with non-standard body, was altered to look marginally like its compatriots, then disposed of in 1946, along with various other non-standard types, like the double-deck Q’s at the very time when it was obvious they were needed! However, with the RT family of buses, peak passenger numbers were in 1949, although the dwindling numbers were slow to start with. Typically, LTE definitely over-ordered them to the point where the last 400 went into store for about four years and many of them had ex-SRT bodies draped on them until they eventually went into service. LPTB/LTE achieved some remarkable things in its short life, especially pre-war, but it was quite barmy in some ways and you won’t find me an apologist for it! And Chris Y, I never realised they had to lower the RT’s tyre pressures to get them off Anglesey, presumably after that first accident!
I can’t answer your query about the transfer of SaRo bodies at Aldenham, Phil, save to say that their incompatibility with RTL chassis meant, unlike regular RT bodies, they were not put onto RTL chassis because they, too, were non-standard and disposed of earlier. Incidentally, there was nothing odder than seeing a roofbox-bodied RTL – //tinyurl.com/p5dgkls
Chris Hebbron
28/05/13 – 08:53
Chris H – some most interesting insights into LPTB/LTE policy and practice. I hope I wasn’t imagining the necessity to lower the Saro RTs for their journey from the factory, but I’m sure that I read it somewhere reliable. I’d never considered the feature of roof route number boxes on RTLs but having looked at these pictures I’ve quickly decided that I liked them, and on the RTs too. I think they gave just a little “look of determination” to the otherwise curvaceous and attractive fronts. On a practical level too I’m sure that the all important route number was more easily seen by intending passengers in heavy traffic – perhaps though there were risks of damage and leakage from incidents in mechanical washing machines, although none seems evident in photographs.
Chris Youhill
28/05/13 – 08:59
Well, Chris, Neville, Roger and Chris. Been away and just read your theses on London Transport. Can add little other than whole hearted agreement. Look no further than the premature withdrawals all having longer (happy) lives with a second (major) operator than with LT – including the not particularly happy Swift/Merlin fleet in Malta. As a Sheffielder, I will always have a soft spot for the Cravens.
David Oldfield
28/05/13 – 11:13
Chris H, my first visit to London from up North was as an 8 year old in 1955. The roof box fascinated me and, over the years and on many visits into the 1960s, I managed a few rides on roof box RTLs.
Chris Y, you aren’t suffering from excess imagination as the reduction in tyre pressures has been documented in a few publications over many years. Given the longevity of the tale and the fact |I’ve never seen it contradicted, it may well be true.
Phil Blinkhorn
28/05/13 – 11:14
Just to finish our deviation, there were a few body oddities with LPTB I never mentioned. Several “pre-war” RT’s were fitted, post-war, with quarter opening front windows, for an experiment, I assume. One of them had its front roofbox altered for them by an errant tree, the former never being replaced. This reminds me that LPTB, in 1942, were authorised to build some semi-austerity bodies to STL style, to be fitted to unfrozen Regent I chassis. In the event, only three were so fitted, the rest going onto used chassis. The highbridge versions all had the roofbox fronts, but minus the roofboxes. The rest of the highbridges had a mix of “float” boxes some back to 1932. They all had crash boxes and sensibly went to hilly parts of Country Area. These highly non-standard, semi-austerity vehicles lasted until the very end of STL operation, me catching my only ever glimpse of one (re-painted green by then) as a garage “hack”, in mid-1955, within days of withdrawal. So, sometimes, non-standard was valued!
Chris Hebbron
28/05/13 – 17:03
An interesting aside to Les’s posting is that Wass Brothers were an apparently well respected independent and although it is now fifty five years since they sold out to East Midland, their garage and premises on Westfield Lane, Mansfield survive to this day in their entirety and are now used by another well known independent, Johnson Bros/Redfern Travel.
Chris Barker
29/05/13 – 06:57
Just wondered if anyone has any details of the years of Wass ownership re the Ex Lincoln Corporation Leyland Titan TD4. Did they have two? Presumably the RTs replaced them, Any info will be most welcome.
Steve Milner
29/05/13 – 10:03
Wass Bros Mansfield. Regarding the depot comment by Chris Barker. I wonder Chris, perhaps you are mixing up the locations here? I live in the district and I’m frustrated at how little history from the 20’s to the 70’s was recorded. As such I’m not saying you’re mistaken but my understanding is that the Wass Bros depot was about half a mile further up Westfield Lane, at the junction with Redgate Street. They (WB) did have an ‘office/house/HQ’ on Welbeck Street in Mansfield but I’ve no evidence that they occupied the Lindley Street Garage used by Redferns for some 30 odd years. Research suggests that The Lindley Street depot was a late 20’s extension to the original Neville & Sons Motor Garage on Westfield Lane. George Neville was a pre WWI Mail Carrier and operated the first omnibuses in Mansfield, his business expanded into wagon building and adaptations and moved to a larger site just before WWII. The body building company still exists in the town today, although owned by some foreign multi-national. The Westfield Lane/Lindley St site then seems to have passed to existing Lindley Street haulier Tom Eason, who must have been attracted to the bigger garage just down his street! He rapidly developed his business into specialist carrier, Westfield Transport Ltd. They moved to a purpose built site in 1958 before being taken over by Pickfords in 1964. The Garages were then occupied by another haulier, W.T.Kemp, by the 70’s his sons were operating the site as a Saab and DAF cars dealership. Redferns moved into the Lindley Street Garage in 1975. It was 5 years before the Wass Bros depot site was re-developed with the building of a pub known the The Redgates. I’ve never seen any picture taken in or around the depot so if anyone would care to share? I do however have a picture of JXC 219, still in Wass 2 tone red but with East Midland decals. It is photographed with serious front dome damage, seemingly having tried to pass under a bridge some 3 or 4 inches too low. Amazingly none of the glass in the upper deck looks to have failed, well built those Cravens bodies? There does seem to have been 2 ex-Lincoln TD4’s in the fleet, VL 8847-8. Listed with Wass from June 1952 till April 1956.
Berisford Jones
29/05/13 – 18:13
Berisford, I’m sure you’re correct in what you say. I do have one or two pictures of Wass vehicles which I took with me to Mansfield a few years ago to try and identify the site, which I thought I had but unfortunately I didn’t know about the premises further up Westfield lane. Oh well, at least some of the other operators sites, Trumans, Ebor, Red Bus and Naylors are still recognisable! With regard to the ex-Lincoln TD4’s, there was also an ex-Chesterfield TD5, HNU 818 and it made me wonder if the three RT’s replaced the three Titans but the RT’s didn’t arrive until 1957 so were there any more second hand double deckers?
Chris Barker
29/05/13 – 18:14
Thanks for that Berisford – most welcome ta
Steve Milner
30/05/13 – 06:00
I have the first 2 RT’s listed as arriving in May 56 as the 2 TD4’s leave and the 3rd RT looks to have entered service with Wass in November 56 as the Chesterfield HNU818 departs?
Berisford Jones
30/05/13 – 06:00
That’s interesting, Chris, regarding ex-Chesterfield Titan HNU 818. Sisters HNU 817/9/20 went to Rotherham Corporation in 1956, as a stop gap measure until three lowbridge Daimlers that the corporation had ordered could be delivered the following year. I was only young, but I recall riding on one of them one evening, on its way into town from Dinnington, and it left a lasting impression, as it was such a raucous machine.
Dave Careless
30/05/13 – 06:00
Oh dear, I feel the imminent onset of the famous “egg on the face.” I’ve just looked in Ken Blacker’s splendid book about the RTs and there is a photo of a long line of the Saunders buses on the Menai Straits bridge – a portal is visible and there appears to be plenty of headroom, so I don’t know what to make of the tale about reducing tyre pressures – perhaps someone once made a “tongue in cheek remark” ??
Chris Youhill
30/05/13 – 08:31
Chris, don’t be embarrassed. As I said before, that tale about tyre pressures has been around a long time. I remember having first read it whilst still at school, and I left school in 1965.
Phil Blinkhorn
30/05/13 – 12:26
Wass’s service was a busy one which needed quite a bit of duplication and it would seem that there were six double deckers in the fleet at any one time, three bought new, a PD1/Burlingham, a Crossley/Willowbrook and an all Leyland PD2. The second hand ones as detailed, three pre-war Titans replaced by the three RT’s. The ones purchased new were all lowbridge and yet the service didn’t appear to require lowbridge buses. There was also a nice Willowbrook bodied PS1 saloon.
Chris Barker
31/05/13 – 06:23
Beresford the comments on Wass Bros depot on Newgate Lane. I have seen photos of No 12 (D48) in the yard this was a single deck building at the side, The photo is one of R H G Simpson collection. Don’t know if they are still available. The other gent on about tyre. London fitted 36×8 tyres and wheels to gain bridge clearance, I Know We fitted a High bridge bus and found it suitable. The out come was it Took a Long time for Sheffield to catch on.
Ian Bennett
31/05/13 – 06:24
Just wondered also which dealer supplied the Wass Cravens RTs ? I thought these were withdrawn by LT in 1954 or am I wrong ?
Steve Milner
31/05/13 – 17:47
Steve, according to the PSV Circle fleet history of East Midland, the RT’s were acquired by Wass via Bird’s of Stratford-on-Avon in 1957.
Chris Barker
01/06/13 – 06:18
Thank you Chris ! Appreciate this.
Steve Milner
01/06/13 – 06:19
The wholesale withdrawal by London Transport of the Craven RTs occurred between the summer of 1955 and the early part of 1956. Yet another indicator of LT profligacy was the repainting in 1956 of no less than 21 of these buses from Central red into green Country livery, only for them to be finally withdrawn into store after only one to six months of subsequent operation. The full story can be found here on Ian’s Bus Stop website
Roger Cox
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
01/06/13 – 15:27
Chris Barker, I wonder, have you got an erroneous/alternative copy of the East Midland PSV fleet list? My edition of PE13 and ‘Ians Bus Stop’ site clearly show the RT’s as acquired in 1956, with the PE13 even showing, with the help of local authority licence date, the May & November 1956 dates for the Wass Bros double decker in-out/swap overs!
Berisford Jones
02/06/13 – 06:34
Ian’s Bus Stop shows KGK 750, RT 1491, being acquired by Wass in November 1956. RT 1456, JXC 219, and RT 1480, KGK 739, are also listed as arriving with Wass in 1956, but the actual month in both cases is uncertain.
Roger Cox
02/06/13 – 06:34
Berisford, my copy of the East Midland fleet history is undated but bears the number PB1, current until 1963 with addenda for 1966 and 1968 so perhaps it is a little erroneous! I have had a look on the ‘Ian’s Bus Stop’ site which I didn’t know about and I agree with you that the dates are obviously correct and account for the withdrawal of the Titans.
London Transport 1949 AEC Regent III RT Craven H30/26R
After operational trials with the revolutionary new chassis during 1938, initially equipped with a 1932 vintage open staircase ST body, the RT prototype re-appeared in August 1939 with an advanced all metal body of very graceful appearance built by Chiswick. An order was placed for 150 of the modern double decker, which was almost immediately raised to 338, with production of 527 each year from 1940 onwards being intended, though the ultimate envisaged total is not recorded. Then came WW2 and the sudden curtailment of bus production, though the order for the first 150 was completed. These, however, had Chiswick built composite bodies, presumably to conserve metal consumption during the hostilities, and the the last example entered service in 1942. With the end of the war, the RT programme was reactivated by AEC in 1946, by which time the chassis design had undergone several improvements, notably in the engine which now had toroidal cavity pistons increasing the maximum output from 100 bhp to 125 bhp, though LT derated this to 115 bhp in the interests of economy and extended life. The jig built metal framed bodywork programme for the RT took a while to establish, and the first postwar RT chassis from 1946 went to provincial operators who equipped them with standard contemporary bodies from their own suppliers. The LT RTs began appearing from 1947 with bodywork by Park Royal and Weymann, but chassis deliveries began seriously to outpace those of the bodywork manufacturers. In 1948, anxious to update its tired pre war fleet, LT turned to other bodywork constructors, selecting Saunders-Roe and Craven to make up the deficit. The Saunders body was metal framed using the firm’s own cruciform pillar design, but the end result outwardly resembled the standard Park Royal/Weymann product very closely. Indeed, the Saunders body was held by LT engineers to be of superior constructional quality, and, although Saunders received a second order for 50, making 300 in total, the unforeseen sharp decline in bus travel from the early 1950s meant that no others were built. The 120 Craven bodies were very different, being simply that manufacturer’s standard design married up to the RT cab and bonnet. The bespoke mountings meant that these bodies were not interchangeable with other RT chassis and this entire batch had to be overhauled separately at Aldenham. They were delivered between September 1948 and April 1950, the first twenty seven being painted green for the Country Bus & Coach department, and allocated to Watford and Windsor depots. The rest were red for Central Bus operation, and their allocation was spread about in seemingly random fashion. Ironically, from 1949, the supply situation went into reverse. RT chassis production could not keep up with the increased bodywork deliveries, and London Transport embarked upon the futile and very costly course of modifying some late STL chassis to accept standard RT bodies. Thus was born the SRT class which proved to be pitifully under powered with the 7.7 engine and dangerously under braked. After a service life of about four years they were all withdrawn, the chassis being scrapped, and the bodies transferred to new RT chassis. As bus patronage declined during the 1950s LT found itself with a significant fleet surplus of vehicles, large numbers of brand new RT and RTL deliveries going straight into store. (This, however, did not deter LT from investing heavily in its new Routemaster for which, at the time, there was no operational necessity.) With large numbers of new RTs and RTLs waiting to take to the road, the non standard Craven RT fleet was earmarked for early withdrawal and most went into store during 1955/6, only for twenty red examples to be repainted green for Country Area service in March/April/May 1956. They did not last long, being withdrawn again between one and four months later, the expensive repainting exercise being yet another example of LT profligacy. At merely six to eight years old, the Craven RTs, became bargain purchases on the secondhand market, going on to serve their new owners for up to a further thirteen years, proof, indeed, that the Craven body design was entirely sound. RT 1431 was delivered to LT in May 1949 and sold out of stock on 30 April 1956 to the dealer, Bird’s of Stratford upon Avon, being very quickly bought by a member of the Ardrossan A1 Service, who ran it for ten years. Early in 1966 this bus was secured for preservation, and the picture shows it at Brighton during the 1970 HCVC Rally. The destination display has been reduced to represent the situation that prevailed in the early 1950s when linen for bus blinds was in short supply. Since 2004, RT 1431 has been a member of the Ensignbus fleet.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
06/07/21 – 05:59
I always found the flatter and less rounded sides of the Craven RTs front to be more attractive than the standard RT body, but the rear was pure Cravens, with its curved upper deck, lower window and number plate positions. RT 1 was initially given the Christopher Dodson body of ex-City Leyland Titan TD111, dating from 1931. It then became ST1140; all very confusing!
Here are two photos of ST1140, which are quite rare
Chris Hebbron
07/07/21 – 05:58
I just like them as buses – but equally like the “standard” RT design. The Cravens were my favourites of the 100 9612Es delivered to Sheffield Transport between 1947 and 1950. They were among the last in 1949/50. Good looking buses with a long life. Excellent though they were, the Weymanns had a permanent scowl which detracted from their appearance. Strangely enough, the lowbridge version (eg RLHs) had a more balanced and appealing appearance – not a thing said very often of lowbridge buses.
David Paul Oldfield
25/07/21 – 07:18
I believe that fitting the old body onto the new RT1 and disguising it as ST1140 was with the intention of fooling competitors into thinking that it was just another old London type. But as the body came from a TD class, which was filled with various acquired Leyland TD1s [and some TD2s?], I wonder how much modification was needed to make it fit? The wheelbase would surely have been different, yet the image above of ST1140 as fitted does not look out of proportion, or crude in any way. This must have been rather an expensive refit for such a short time before the modern body was fitted.
Michael Hampton
26/07/21 – 07:09
Good points, Michael. The Leyland TD1/TD2 was the largest class taken over from the independents by London Transport, not far short of 200. The almost new ones from 1931/33 had modern bodies by Christopher Dodson/Birch Bros. Many of the class finished up with Liverpool Corporation, painted grey and used for ferrying employees to/from sensitive sites. Incidentally, I’ve found another, poor, but mystery, photo of ST1140, posing as some sort of mobile unit, with spats on rear wheels, plus front side lights with reduced lighting area: wartime mode. Yet RT1 was in service with its new body, pre-war, in mid 1939!!
Chris Hebbron
27/07/21 – 06:37
Several interesting comments here, and thanks, Chris, for those pictures of AEC/LPTB’s ‘Q ship’, ST1140, surely devised to fool the competition (Leyland) whilst the new chassis was being tested in service. As Michael has hinted, the disguise of an old open staircase body from a TD1 might well have been decided by the wheelbase. The early Regents of the ST class had a wheelbase of 15ft. 6.5 ins, which was slightly curious because Rackham had only just left Leyland where his new TD1 Titan had been designed with a wheelbase nearly a foot longer at 16ft. 6ins. From 1932 the Regent had a wheelbase of 16ft. 3ins, but none of the later LPTB examples had such elderly looking bodywork that must surely have been deliberately chosen to camouflage the new beast. The new RT chassis – certainly not yet known as the Regent III – had a wheelbase of 16ft. 4ins, for which the old Dodson body must have been adaptable. Chris’s latest picture is a bit of a puzzle because RT1 was fitted with its new Chiswick built body in April 1939, so what is it up to in that photo? The threat of war had been hanging over Britain certainly since 1938 when huge production of war material such as Hurricanes, Spitfires and bombers was initiated, so perhaps ST1140 was used in its final days as a test bed for wartime specifications.
Roger Cox
27/07/21 – 06:39
Actually, now that all three photos are together, and comparison of the first two with the bottom one is possible, it is quite clear that the body on bottom photo is quite different, bearing all the hallmarks of a Tilling/Dodson body from an ex-Tilling ST, some of which started to be withdrawn in the immediate pre-war period. Although body sag might not have been apparent on these frail bodies in 1939, there is no trace of it, nevertheless. What’s all this about???
Chris Hebbron
29/07/21 – 06:25
Thank you Roger for your note on the wheelbase dimensions of the related chassis here. I can quite see how the two inches difference between a TD1 and the RT prototype would be quite easily dealt with in LT’s workshop without showing any obvious crudity. No doubt it was written up as a “research and development” expense, along with everything else that was involved. I had thought that there would have been a very different wheelbase dimension between a TD1 and an RT – but my assumptions have been proved wrong! I was surprised by the difference between the first Regents and the TD1, as they were more or less contemporary in design and production. That seems even more puzzling, but no doubt it’s another story to be told on another occasion.
Michael Hampton
11/08/21 – 05:45
It’s worth noting that RT1’s new Chiswick body had a seating capacity of H29/26R suggesting that it would have breeched the gross vehicle weight limit in force at that time if the standard H39/26R capacity was used. The gross vehicle weight limit was relaxed during the war and again after the war.
Michael Elliott
17/08/21 – 06:30
I had not thought of it before, but some years ago it was pointed out to me that timber/composite rames were heavier than metal. The “Prewar” RT1-150 were of composite construction, unlike the post war bodies. It is likely that they might be heavier and that certification require fewer seats.
David Oldfield
18/08/21 – 05:52
You are probably generally right about the weight of timber frames versus metal frames. But I have a feeling that in the case of the RT family, the “pre-war” ones, [RT2-151] were actually lighter than the post-war version. I have a memory that some of the pre-war machines were kept in service for a longer period than most of the batch due to their allocation for a route over a weight-limited bridge or similar structure. The post-war ones deemed as too heavy. I cannot now remember what route it was, but think it was the outer London suburbs, north of the Thames. I assume that the offending structure was rebuilt or the route diverted when the time came to withdraw these last few pre-war RTs.
Michael Hampton
21/08/21 – 06:15
It was Country Area route 327 that used them.
Ian Mason
22/08/21 – 06:22
Yes, Ian is correct. The Hertford garage based 327 route between Nazeing and Broxbourne crossed a weak bridge over the railway. This service was one of the last strongholds of the postwar STL class until they were displaced in May 1955 by seven wartime RTs, with engineering backup from a couple of others, one in red livery, that served as trainers but still had full psv certification. The Chiswick composite constructed body of the wartime RT had an unladen weight of 6 tons 15 cwt, significantly less than the 7 tons 10 cwt of the Park Royal or Weymann bodied standard RT. When the bridge was suitably reinforced, these RTs were withdrawn in August 1957. I acknowledge Ian’s Bus Stop for padding out my memory with accurate dates.
Roger Cox
22/08/21 – 06:23
There were seven of them, RTs 36, 62, 79, 93, 114, 128 and 137, nicknamed “The Magnificent Seven!”. They were all re-painted into green and based at Hertford Garage from 1955 to 1957. Some had full blinds, even the route number box, but some had one-piece ex-STL blinds. All, bar one, lasted until 1963, some finishing as learner vehicles or as Aldenham hacks. Postwar RTs weighed in at 7.5 tons if memory serves, but the wartime ones were definitely lighter.
Chris Hebbron
25/08/21 – 05:52
Here’s a photo of Green RT 128, fully blinded, on route 327.
Chris Hebbron
03/10/21 – 17:23
The vehicle shown in Chris Hebbron’s picture of 26 July is not RT1 (aka ST1140) with its Dodson body. It is an early postwar 3RT chassis, 0961079, new in 1947 which was used as a training chassis for, I believe, the depot engineers. Because chassis production at the time was outstripping body production, it was evidently decided to use a secondhand body, and the Tilling body from ST977 was fitted. The vehicle was known by its chassis number and never had a Service Vehicle number. It lasted in this role until 1953 when the body was scrapped and the chassis emerged with a new Weymann body in 1954 as RT4761. However it was stored until 1958 and the chassis was eleven years old when it finally entered passenger service.
Basil Hancock
05/10/21 – 06:12
Thanks, Basil, for clearing up the mystery of my 26th July posting. What an extraordinary history of the chassis, taking 11 years before it finally appeared in revenue-earning service as RT4761 And a Tilling ST body fitted here without any sag!!
Chris Hebbron
06/10/21 – 06:19
RM8 took even longer, not entering passenger service until 1976 when it was 18 years old. This made it the last rear entrance and the last half-cab double decker to enter service in the UK, although it was not exactly new at the time. And just to add to the statistics, Chiswick Experimental RT3995 only operated in passenger service for three months before becoming Chiswick’s new toy. Even Merlins and Fleetlines lasted longer than that.
Here are two photos of the former Chiswick Experimental RT3995 in service with Spencers in High Wycombe on 3 November 1969. I am not sure who did the rear end modification, but it looks quite professional so it might have been LT themselves.
Basil Hancock
07/10/21 – 06:27
Interesting about RM8, Basil. RT3995 looks very well turned-out, but looks a little odd with that style of enclosed platform. Thx again for letting us know about these sorts of oddities, otherwise lost over the years.
Chris Hebbron
10/10/21 – 19:27
RT1431 was strutting her stuff between Dorking and Putney Heath on the 93 running day yesterday (9 October) – along with RT1 and sundry other members of the RT and RM class. RTs predominated and most of the buses were “showroom” condition – a testament to the hard work and care lavished on them by their owners. I’ve said it before but, Three cheers to the preservationists who continue to make these events possible.
David Oldfield
11/10/21 – 20:26
Wish I could’ve gone, David. Living at Morden until 1956, the 93 was our long-distance through-route, initially served exclusively by 1RT1s, but Sutton’s D’s would later put in an appearance and Merton’s STL’s and D’s would appear on the Summer Sunday extension from Morden to Dorking, when I’d persuade my mum to splash out for a ride into the country and green buses! In those days, that whole journey was in Surrey!
Sheffield Corporation 1949 AEC Regent III 9612E Craven H30/26R
A pair of withdrawn Craven bodied Regent III are evident in this picture taken on the parking area behind East Bank Garage in May 1966. Further along the row is another one with the front number plate in the raised position (presumably to reduce accidental damage). The next in line to the Cravens pair is 431, a 1950 Northern Coachbuilders bodied Regent III, note a similar bus just visible at the extreme right contrasting the grey and cream painted roofs. The same applies to the two all Leyland PD2/1 that can be seen. This area was the gathering ground for withdrawn buses pending being towed away by one of the Barnsley scrap dealers.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
25/01/15 – 10:57
Thanks for posting this gem Ian. As a boy, I would cycle from Birley to see the latest line-up on the roof of Eastbank garage (the journey back up could be a challenge). I’m surprised to see that the fleet numbers have not been blacked out in the traditional fashion. Any chance of a larger picture?
Les, I suspect these had only recently been withdrawn. May 1966 would have been when large numbers of Atlantean PDR1/2 with Park Royal or Neepsend bodies were entering service. To the best of my knowledge fleet numbers etc were always painted out prior to collection for scrap. Cycling up East bank Road?? No thank you!
Ian Wild
31/01/15 – 06:30
The very handsome locally built Cravens Regents were well thought of in Sheffield with some giving 18 years service in the city. Here’s 231 of the 1949 delivery looking splendid when new in the manufacturer’s official photo.
John Darwent
01/02/15 – 06:55
Today’s “stylists” and image-mongers and dreamers-up of nightmare liveries could learn a lot from this dignified vehicle.
Ian T
01/02/15 – 09:17
Oh, how I concur with your opinion, Ian. Fairly locally to me, Norfolk Green had a smart, traditionally applied livery in contrasting shades of green. Since the Stagecoach takeover the livery (and the service reliability) has plummeted to abysmal levels. The front three quarters is now a ‘swooped’ grey, followed by vestigial traces of green. The immediate impression on approach is of a military vehicle. One half expects the destination to display “Rations – No Lifts”.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1937 AEC Regent I Craven H56R
Here is another of the four ex Nottingham Regents that Provincial acquired in 1954 it was fleet number 220 in the Nottingham fleet. According to Stephen Didymus this vehicle was partially rebuilt during the late 1950s and ended up with a front destination layout to Provincial’s standard design of the time. Craven bodybuilders were located at Sheffield their main business appeared to be railway carriages but they also made tram and bus bodies. During the war they apparently made the wings for the “Horsa” troop carrying gliders, and components for the Lancaster bombers. They also built 120 AEC RT type vehicles for London Transport but they were not built to the same specification as the rest having five bay bodies instead of four is one example. Not being to the same specification also meant that their bodies would not be interchangeable with others RTs built by other bodybuilders so they did not last long with London Transport and were soon sold off.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
Sheffield Transport’s 15 1948 Regent IIIs and the RTs were probably Cravens’ swansong before they concentrated on production of trams and then railway rolling stock – especially DMUs. What isn’t widely known is that Cravens bought East Lancs in the early sixties, after a chance meeting of the chairmen of both companies. At the same time, they tried to expand by opening Neepsend Coachworks in that same district of Sheffield. Although Neepsend closed after only four years, both it and East Lancs were subsidiaries of Cravens – Neepsend was never owned by East Lancs. Cravens soon sold out to the bigger John Brown Group – a steel manufacturer in Sheffield – who eventually sold East Lancs on to Dawson Williams and Drawlane (which became British Bus and, eventually, Arriva).
David Oldfield
Nostalgic picture. I can recall the pre-war Regents working in Nottingham in the early 50s. 50 of this Cravens bodied version were supplied about 1938 (DAU451-500, running numbers 72-76 and 214-258). Metro-Cammell supplied a total of 93 (I think) during 1936-37, and Northern Counties 35 in 1935. From the sound, I would judge that they were all pre-selectors. I think that all varieties were originally built with narrow upstairs front windows flanking a central route number box, but most were subsequently rebuilt in the style shown on the photo. The Cravens had a slightly glowering appearance, and the Northern Counties had a more rounded dome and less steeply raked front. Internally, the three series were similar. Lighting was by naked bulbs in oval “volcano” fittings – except for the Northern Counties which had big circular “volcanos”. The Cravens and MCs had plunger bells instead of “push once” buttons. Nearly all were displaced from front line service by the 1953-55 deliveries of Park Royal Regent IIIs (OTV127-198 with running numbers matching the registration). It was this that released various of them for sale to Provincial around 1954. Click here to see one in Nottingham about 1948.
VO 6806 is a petrol-engined AEC Regal 662 with Craven B32F body new in 1931 to Bevan & Barker Ltd. (t/a Red Bus Service), Warsop Road Garage, Mansfield, one of three similar vehicles. The company was taken over by Mansfield District Traction on 1st January 1957 along with eight vehicles : seven AEC’s and a Bedford. Of these an AEC Regal 0662/Massey and four Regent III double deckers (one with Massey and three with Crossley bodies) were retained by MDT for further service, but this, another Regal and the Bedford OWB utility were immediately withdrawn. VO 6806 was handed over to the British Transport Museum at Clapham for preservation, but this establishment was extremely London Transport orientated and the handful of provincial vehicles in their collection remained quietly in the background until in 1968 Halifax GM Geoffrey Hilditch persuaded them to loan him the Regal – along with an ex-Jersey PLSC Lion, an-ex-Swindon Arab utility and an-ex-Rotherham Crossley – ostensibly to take part in a parade through the town to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the undertaking. The vehicles were subsequently used in other local events and all four took part in the 1973 Trans-Pennine Rally, and the Regal is shown here manoeuvring in the tight confines of the original Harrogate location (before in later years moving to The Stray) at the end of that event. I believe that the four were officially transferred into Halifax Corporation ownership for the duration of the loan – indeed the Crossley was used for driver training on occasions – but when Hilditch moved to Leicester around 1975 they went with him to the best of my knowledge. Their present whereabouts are not known to me, although I gather they are all still in existence somewhere. It would be nice to see them out and about again though.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
03/07/17 – 07:55
Actually, on having a closer look this doesn’t look like Harrogate and may well have been Harry Ramsden’s Car Park at Guiseley en route.
John Stringer
03/07/17 – 07:56
Both this Regal and the Leyland Lion are currently shown as being part of the Science Museum collection, though it is unclear whether or not they are on display or in running order.
Roger Cox
04/07/17 – 07:09
All four of these were (the last I read) at the Science Museum reserve collections centre at Wroughton, Wiltshire.
Stephen Allcroft
04/07/17 – 07:10
Roger is right and I believe the AEC is stored at Wroughton. I was surprised how many vehicles are stored there including a Guy Arab which GGH also looked after. The state of some of them is not good but at least they are under cover. I guess we were lucky to see them running when we did thanks to GGH. I just wish we could see the exhibits more often as it is a national collection – no pun intended but there is a Leyland Nxxxxxxl there too!
Sam Caunt
04/07/17 – 07:11
If they are at Wroughton and I think they are then they are being stored in an uncared for state. One of my colleagues was there recently and was asked not to take pictures because of the poor state of the vehicles. Colin Billington has tried several times to get vehicles moved to secure homes and inertia/unwillingness to take a decision has frustrated him.
Roger Burdett
05/07/17 – 06:27
Just as an aside to this interesting post, Bevan & Barker sold only their stage service and buses to Mansfield District in 1957. Their garage still stands (on Leeming Lane North actually) and they continue in business to this day as well regarded motor engineers and petrol station. (no relation to me incidentally!)
Chris Barker
06/07/17 – 07:38
Wroughton, opened in 1940, was both an RAF and RNAS station for many years, with lots of original hangars, which hold the Science Museum’s varied “exhibits” in a far-from-ideal environment, hence their slow deterioration.
Chris Hebbron
07/07/17 – 07:44
Ribble white lady in the background.
Peter Butler
01/12/20 – 05:32
With regard to Chris Barker’s comment on 05/07/17, the Bevan and Barker garage on Leeming Lane North is up for sale as at November 2020.
Mr Anon
13/04/22 – 08:00
The Science Museum (Wroughton) website says that the museum is Permanently Closed, what does that mean?. That is, where have the contents gone?
Portsmouth Corporation 1937 AEC 661T/English Electric Craven H26/26R
Portsmouth Corporation had 115 trolleybuses in its fleet. The first 15 (1934) were a motley collection of chassis/electrical equipment and bodies, four and six wheelers, bought for evaluation. The next nine (1935/36) were, to me, the most handsome of them all, were AEC/EE ones with English Electric bodies. Unable to move under their own power, they lived a shadowy life, latterly neglected and shabby. See here for a “smart” photo of one. The last 15 (301-315), BUT9611T, with Burlingham bodies, were the last delivered, in 1951, for a route extension. 294, from the third order, in the range (225-300), was the largest group delivered, in 1936/37. Amazingly, with not a Craven body appearing previously, these wore those bodies! They bore the brunt of the services and proved to be sound vehicles all round, although the ash bodies needed rebuilding during their 26/27 year lives. In this rare colour photograph, 294 (like the Leyland PD1A/Weymann bus I recently posted), is also crossing Guildhall Square on tennis racquet-shaped route 17/18 from Eastney to the Dockyard, 17 anti-clockwise and 18 clockwise. The destination would be changed at Dockyard and Eastney. This photo was taken on an early Summer”s evening in 1963, on the cusp of the system”s demise on 27th July 1963. 294 lasted to the end. Two trolleybuses have survived, but neither of them represents this range; a loss really, for I”m not aware of Craven using this body design for any other vehicles.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
Thank you Chris for another lovely Portsmouth photo of a very deserving type of trolleybus. The AEC 661T/Craven trolleybuses were the workhorses of the fleet and I have very fond memories of a visit to ride on them in 1963. I have always remembered the internal finish of the Portsmouth Cravens to be an excellent show of Civic pride. I do believe similar Craven bodies were built for Kingston -upon-Hull on Crossley TDD4 trolleybus chassis nos. 27 to 46 in 1938.
Richard Fieldhouse
08/01/12 – 16:22
The Cravens (full title Cravens Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd) bore similarities to the twenty Cravens bodied Crossleys delivered to Hull in 1938. the majority entered service on 2 September 1938, eight lasting until 3 February 1962. There was an option for a further 54 bodies which was not taken up.
When clicking on the link to one of the batch of nine English Electric bodied AECs of 1935, a picture of No 24 is displayed. A previous picture on that site shows No 21 of the same batch. The contributor there notes that the electrical support structure on the roof is enclosed on No 24, but is open framed on pictures of the others in the batch. I suspect that the reason for this is that No 24 was exhibited at the 1935 Commercial Motor Show, and was built thus for that purpose. Although presumably delivered to Portsmouth after the Show, it did not enter service until April 1936. It became the last of the batch to survive, being withdrawn in 1958. As far as the Cravens-bodied stalwarts are concerned, they were what a Portsmouth trolleybus was expected to look like – just as an RM or RT represents London! No 237 reportedly survived in a Portsmouth scrapyard near the erstwhile airport for several years – possibly even into this century? But I have not heard whether it still survives, and if so whether it is accessible. No 313, a Burlingham bodied BUT of 1951 (Portsmouth’s last to run in service on 27 July 1963) is in fine fettle at Carlton Colville, I believe. No 201 (Portsmouth’s first numerically) has had a more chequered preservation career, first at Beaulieu Motor Museum, then back to Portsmouth, and ended up at the Milestones Museum in Basingstoke. About two years ago, it looked rather sorry for itself, and at my last visit early last year, it was not on display. I would hope that it is out of display for some smartening up work at the very least.
Michael Hampton
11/01/12 – 10:33
Thx, Michael, for the interesting titbit about 24 being in the 1935 Comm. Motor Show. You mention one Cravens survivor hanging on in Pompey somewhere and I believe another one did for a few years as a public convenience in Bristol – I think I saw a photo of it once, painted white. I saw 313 only in October, but it was in the ‘garage’ and I was unable to see anything other than an impeccable rear: it wasn’t running that day. Were these distinctive Burlingham bodies replicated on other contemporary (trolley)buses? I can’t recall any others, off-hand. And you’re so right about the Craven’s ones. The comprehensive and intensive system Pompey had, meant that a trolleybus was barely ever out of sight and the 75 Cravens ones seemed to total more like 200, always popping up. Wherever you went, there they were! Fratton Bridge was a complex junction for the overhead and I used to happily spend 20 mins watching the poles picking their way across the wires and frogs. The last (evening) journeys were still by trolleybus, even when the system officially closed down, and that was my last ride on a Cravens. Happy days!
Chris Hebbron
11/01/12 – 13:19
I always thought that Cravens bodies were full of character, regardless of operator or application. Having waxed lyrical in many discussions about how I loved the Cravens RTs in London I’ve usually found that I couldn’t convince the opposition – sad really, because I think that they are missing something very attractive in the five bay construction within the RT classic outline – a magical combination in my view.
Chris Youhill
11/01/12 – 17:08
I have a prejudice in favour of Cravens because they were from my home town (Sheffield) and provided many STD buses from the mid thirties until 1950. [At this point they left bus building until they bought East Lancs in 1964 – and also formed Neepsend Coachworks.] The last Cravens (1950 Regent IIIs)were among my favourites – and I thought amongst the most attractive of the immediate post war designs. They were almost identical to the RTs – but minus the “Londonisms”.
David Oldfield
12/01/12 – 06:01
I always liked the Cravens’ RT’s, too. They were nicer to look at, in all respects, save for the hunched back and, if I recall correctly, the emergency windows and lower rear window did not match up, either. Nevertheless, they made a good stab at making a pseudo-RT body from a standard design shell. Surprisingly, there are only two postings of Cravens’ bodied vehicles on this website, which should be rectified! Perhaps David could post a photo of the 1950 AEC Regent III’s he mentions. It would make an interesting exercise to compare them with the Londonised RT’s.
Chris Hebbron
12/01/12 – 06:07
Copyright P R Doughty
The latest comment by David Oldfield on the Portsmouth Cravens trolleybus has reminded me of this slide, taken by a friend of mine when we visited Sheffield in December 1966. I guess this is the batch he is mentioning
Bob Gell
12/01/12 – 06:05
Re above posting from Chris H, Here is a picture of the rather unfortunate Portsmouth ‘bus that ended it’s days in a rather unusual service role. It was used as such for many years, maybe around fifteen or even more! It was in use during 1961 and as far as I am aware it disappeared about 1980 //farm8.staticflickr.com/ No 313 has survived in fine condition and can be seen in running order here. //www.youtube.com/
Richard Leaman
12/01/12 – 10:38
Bob’s slide is most pleasing, and shows well the very attractive upper saloon front bay and roof dome which I’ve always found to be a particularly classic outline. Richard’s comparison of the two latter careers of the Portsmouth trolleybus are heart warming, and the visitors to Carlton Colville are obviously flushed with enthusiasm at the relaunch.
Chris Youhill
12/01/12 – 10:39
Thx, Bob, for the Sheffield bus photo, from which I can see something of the “RT”. Did these bodies have the hunched back that the “RT”s” possessed? And thx, Richard, for reassuring me that my memory of the “Ladies” trolleybus wasn”t faulty! I think we can say that preservation of it was not an option by this stage! And it was nice to see 313 in action, too. I was surprised to read that this vehicle, after being saved, went for scrap and was rescued a second time.
Chris Hebbron
12/01/12 – 10:41
Thanks, Bob. This is indeed the batch. [Strange how vehicles which spent most of their lives with grey roofs looked bald when repainted without it. Apparently this grey was called “smudge” – an STD concoction from mixing paint.] Put a London cab and London opening windows in and they are more or less identical styles. This vehicle was departing the small Bridge Street Bus Station for the borders of Ecclesfield which, at the time, was actually in the West Riding. [It became part of Sheffield after the 1974 Government reorganisation.] Bearing in mind the common 13 year life of STD buses, 1966 was very late for a bus of 1949/50 vintage, but occasionally vehicles reached 16 – and exceptionally 20 – years service. Please note, in the distance, one of the Neepsend bodies I mentioned earlier. STD had about 40 on the atrocious PDR1/2 Atlantean between 1964 and 1966.
David Oldfield
13/01/12 – 07:21
Chris Y, Chris H, David – Thanks for your kind comments; pleased to help. David, thank you also for identifying the location, which I wasn’t sure of. A nice co incidence getting two Sheffield bodied vehicles on the same shot.
Bob Gell
24/01/12 – 05:59
Michael Hampton recalls that No. 237 languished in a Pompey scrapyard for many years. I”ve found a photo of it on David Bradley”s excellent website, having just arrived at Jordans Scrapyard and it can be found at the link below. Apparently, it survived until about 2000 and a Sheffield group of Craven”s enthusiasts looked into saving it, but it was too far gone. The majority finished up in a quarry on Portsdown Hill where a cutting was made some years ago to bring the A3(M) through to join the A/M27. David Bradley”s website //www.trolleybus.net/
Chris Hebbron
25/01/12 – 05:13
Here”s a three minute “collage” of Portsmouth trolleybuses, both Craven and Burlingham-bodied types, along with glimpses of Southdown and Corporation buses, especially some Bedford OWB”s. The first scene shows the brilliant acceleration, (driver showing off?) despite the sounds of old age, creating a tram-like whine. You can also hear the “twang” of the overhead wires at one point, something I”d forgotten about. See HERE: //www.youtube.com
Chris Hebbron
07/02/12 – 16:37
Thanks to Chris H for more info and the links to other sites re the one that ended up in a “convenient place” in Bristol, and the evocative clip of several swishing their way through Portsmouth streets. Many places still recognisable, but with subtle (and not some not so subtle) changes. In an earlier contribution (11th Jan), I mentioned that pioneer trolley 201 (AEC/EE) had been in a rather down-at-heel condition at the Milestones Museum in Basingstoke, and had disappeared from there at my last visit. A friend handed me a cutting from a recent local paper (The News, Jan 31, 2012) which has a few paragraphs reminiscing about the trolleybuses. Most importantly, it states that from June 2009, 201 has been in the care of the City of Portsmouth Preserved Transport Depot, at Portchester (nr Fareham, Hants). So it’s good to know that it’s disappearance from Basingstoke is not sinister, and that it’s still being looked after.
Michael Hampton
08/02/12 – 06:21
That’s good news, Michael. I would think that it’s in much the same state as the London ‘Diddler’ by now – delicate!
Chris Hebbron
28/04/12 – 07:57
As a Sheffielder I well remember the Cravens batch of AECs. I thought they had nice simple clean lines. Cravens later effort on the only Bedford ever in the Sheffield fleets, number 11 KWA 811D was an ugly beast by comparison. What a shame that no Sheffield Cravens Regents were ever preserved.
Les Dickinson
28/04/12 – 08:54
Oh how I agree with everything you say, Les.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
15/10/12 – 07:41
Recent pics of Trolleybus 201 can be found here www.cpptd.co.uk
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting