Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1954 Daimler CVG6 Roe H33/25R
This bus is a “CV” series Daimler the “V” stands for Victory meaning the chassis was built after World War II whereas the preceding series “CW” was for chassis built during the War when the “W” stood for war. As this bus is a “CV” series it had what was called a “Birmingham Tin Front”, similar to the previous K.H.C.T. AEC Regent III. If it had been a CS/CC series built 1955 onwards the radiator would of been different, and would then of been called a “Manchester Front”. Is there a Tin/Fibre Glass front expert out there that can sort out this radiator business once and for all. When does a “Birmingham” become a “Manchester”. There is a link to a video of a preserved Halifax Daimler “CV”, all be it two years younger than this bus here please note the difference in the destination boxes from the bus in this photo and the one in the video, more on that at a later date.
The Manchester front is the one with the headlamp mounted on the wing, the bonnet itself being narrower than the Birmingham version. It took a Mancunian to realise that short drivers couldn’t see the nearside wing on a Birmingham front so they were forever bashing things!The Birmingham front was also fitted to Crossleys, Guy Arabs and AEC Regent IIIs, whereas the Manchester type only ever appeared on Daimlers. There are two versions of the Manchester front, as CVG6s had a tapering front chassis frame with a 7′ 6″ front axle. CVG6-30s, CCGs & CSGs and the last few CVG6s all had straight frames and 8ft axles, hence a wider front.
David A Jones
29/05/11 – 07:51
Sadly these buses weighed a ton more than the mark III Regent and had 112bhp engines in lieu of 125bhp of the mark III as a result they had a lot of trouble, many were fitted with Leyland O.600 units and later 95 had a 6LXB Gardner whilst 93 had a turbo charged Daimler. So 95 became CVG6LX, 93 CVD6, most of the others CVL6 some retained the 6LW mainly the 116 etc group used on the flatter shorter corporation services.
Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield 1949 Daimler CVD6 East Lancs H30/26R
The name of this operator is shortened to S.H.M.D. thankfully, its full name was as follows “Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield Joint Transport Tramways/Transport and Electricity Board” (see comments below). Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield are 4 towns to the east of Manchester. This Daimler had an East Lancs body which was a rare thing as to say they preferred Northern Counties would be an understatement. S.H.M.D. got together with Atkinson and Northern Counties and in 1955 the only Atkinson double-decker ever built went into service but nothing ever became of the venture and in 1969 it passed over to SELNEC.
The Atkinson ‘decker No. 70 (UMA 370) was restored at Stalybridge on withdrawal and presented to the Greater Manchester Museum of Transport, where it still lives. It does come out from time to time and still goes well. SHMD had ten of those East Lancs bodies, and ten Brush bodies just after the war; it was just a case of “grab what you can” in the post-war shortage of new buses. The East Lancs bodies must have been good as they lived a full life; the Brush were rubbish and were replaced by NCME ones after six years.
David A Jones
Number 70 was not the only Atkinson double-decker built there were two one which was sent to India.
Peter Barber
SHMD were on of the last operators to use centre entrance deckers buying them as late as the nineteen fifties. As well as the solitary Atkinson one other SHMD bus with centre entrance is still in existence being a Daimler CVG6 with Northern Counties body that lives at the Keighley bus museum. They also have a SHMD Atkinson Alpha centre entrance saloon under restoration.
Chris Hough
I was one of the last two apprentices to be taken on by SHMD in 1968, and have worked on the No70 bus along with a host of others. If you need any further information re SHMD please contact me through this site.
Andrew Paul Roberts
Please note that you have fallen for the common mistake of including the word “Joint” in describing the full name for the SHMD. It was always the “Stalybridge Hyde Mossley and Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board”. The trams themselves did show various nomenclatures such as “Joint Board” and that was the term commonly used among local passengers at the time. But the word “joint” was never part of the official name. I am sorry that you did not think to check this out before posting this on-line.
David
I agree that the word Joint didn’t appear in the official title, but it was not “always” Tramways. The name was changed to Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield Transport and Electricity Board in 1936.
Peter Williamson
The buses originally carried an “SHMD Joint Tramways” fleet name which then became “SHMD Joint Board” but this was later shortened to “SHMD Board” until the longer title was adopted in much smaller lettering in the early sixties. Once the device was adopted, for some reason as a general rule double-deckers had the multiple coats-of-arms device between SHMD and Board whereas single deckers only had the lettering.
David Beilby
All Employees and Management through out my time at SHMD, along with the local people knew the company as Joint Board. Yes the Buses had both the monograms and the lettering, but it was always known as Joint Board. I may have letters from SHMD, so I will check to see how they have signed them
Andrew Paul Roberts
OK, so I was lazy in saying the title was “Always Tramways etc.; I know it changed to “Transport”. And of course it always included “and Electricity” even after that responsibility was lost, but that bit was dropped from the full title as shown on the vehicles in later years. The point I was making was that, though everyone in the area always called it “the Joint Board”, and that was an accurate description of its legal status and function, and the term was used on the vehicles, it was never the legal name of the organisation. That was enshrined in the Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley & Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board Act of 1900. Because everyone knows it had the longest name in the business, everybody seems to want to embellish it unnecessarily with another word to make it sound more eccentric! This is of course an old Stalybridge tradition, since the town famously boasts what is alleged to be the longest pub name in the world as well: “The Old Thirteenth Cheshire Riflemen Voluntary Corps Inn” I’ve seen this with extraneous words added by helpful admirers too!
David Jones
19/03/11 – 07:33
A bit of trivia, in John Schlesingers film ‘Yanks’ the decker used in an early scene the conductress’s hat badge reads ‘Stalybridge and District’ why they didn’t use SHMD I don’t know as the continuity in the film was quite good otherwise.
Roger Broughton
29/11/11 – 18:01
I haven’t watched the excellent film “Yanks” for a good while now, but much of it was filmed in Keighley and I think the bus concerned was Keith Jenkinson’s Keighley-West Yorkshire Titan JUB 29 wasn’t it ??
Chris Youhill
30/11/11 – 06:25
Yes it was Keith Jenkinson’s JUB 29 Chris. I remember it spending a short time in West Yorkshire’s Body Shop for a general sprucing up after filming had finished. It was tucked snugly in the back left-hand corner (viewed from Westmoreland Street) and achieved almost ‘local celebrity’ status with some of the older staff during its brief stay. Like you, I’ve never seen the film, but know that quite a lot of the scenes were shot around Keighley and its railway station. That would tie in very nicely with the Keighley-West Yorkshire vehicle, not to mention the splendid engines of the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway.
Brendan Smith
22/07/12 – 08:02
I remember the Crossley Omnibus Society – or maybe its BWBE predecessor – running a tour with no 70. I don’t remember where we went (probably somewhere in Yorkshire) but I do recall it was a very nice bus to ride. My other strong memory of the SHMD is a ride on the Haughton Green – Hyde service on an ancient Daimler which had a rope bell. I had heard about these being used on some old trams, but it’s the only time I remember seeing one on a ‘modern’ bus.
Brian Wainwright
23/07/12 – 08:02
SYPTE specified rope bell-pulls on its Leyland Atlanteans and Dennis Dominators – in First Bus days one of the Dominators was allocated to First Calderdale.
Philip Rushworth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
01/12/12 – 16:13
I have just had a great time looking at the pictures and reminiscing about “the good old days” I was a fitter at the depot on Tame Street along with Andy Roberts. I will try and dig out some old photos and post them.
Derek Gibson
02/12/12 – 13:58
BELLS ON THE SHMD Some early trams were fitted with electric bells according to Hyde & Ogden in their SHMD Board book. These gave trouble and were replaced. Manual bells were fitted to buses using a continuous jointed leather thong. The Daimler demonstrator double decker 168 delivered in 1936 had but two bell pushes in the lower saloon, which the conductors found insufficient. When incorporated into the fleet it was fitted with the continuous thong bell which on double deckers ended over a pulley and hung down on the platform of double deckers. In the older vehicles the thong was looped through the grab rail along the ceiling, later buses had holders provided. I think more modern buses were fitted with m continuous bells connected to an electric bell in the cab. Upstairs the original Daimler double deckers had a single pneumatic bell at the top of the stairs, with a more modern bellpush than that on the Manchester trams. I recollect that Liverpool’s older trams had a flat strap bell along the middle of the ceiling of the lower deck.
Mr Anon
02/12/12 – 16:31
The Daimler demonstrator of 1936 is referred to in Hyde & Ogdens fleet list as : fleet No 168 Reg No BWK 860. Daimler Chassis COG6 with Weymann Body. Withdrawn 1950. Is this the same as the Daimler CVD6 referred to in your appended comment ?
This photo was taken at the old Huddersfield bus station of a typical front entrance Daimler of the time. This bus has the Manchester style front as opposed the Birmingham style front which can be seen here. It was taken over by W.Y.P.T.E. on the 1st of April 1974 and entered there service as fleet number 4114.
I fondly remember visiting Bingley’s (one of the United Servces partners) in the mid-60s and asking Mrs Bingley (“Ma” Bingley as she was fondly known to us), whether LTO 10 was operating that day, as I wanted to photograph it. No sooner said, than she shouted for her daughter (?) who was the operations manager, and said – “Put t’Daimler on’t teatime dupe, ‘cos there’s a lad here wants to take a snap of it!” As promised, LTO 10 arrived into Wakefield bus station at about 5.30pm, and I got a (not very good) shot of it. Wonderful times which can never be repeated.
Photograph and copy contributed by Paul Haywood
The above bus was originally owned by A Skill of Nottingham and was delivered in 1950. Skills were supposed to take delivery of another CVD6 with Duple body as above but it went to W Gash & Sons instead as there DD7 (LNN 353) view at this link scroll down a bit and you will find two shots.
Spencer
My friend Paul has revived many happy memories of our days in the Wallace Arnold traffic office. “Ma” Bingley was Phyllis and was the “P” in “W. R. & P. Bingley – she was as Paul reports a “no nonsense” lady who quite simply got things done. That she was also a competent conjurer is beyond argument. All desperate calls from WA Hunslet for heavy assistance when summer peak demands got out of hand were calmly answered with “Ow many der yer want ??” No matter how many extra coaches we needed the necessary vehicles would appear at all hours as if by magic – fresh from pit contracts or schools or wherever – all manned by chaps who knew their place and “did as Phyllis said” without question and the impossibly large seaside passengers would all be gone without a hiccup. Slightly off the Daimler topic I admit, but Phyllis deserves an accolade as one of the real legends of the Industry.
Chris Youhill
Great story, Paul/Chris. Keep ’em coming! The human side is just as interesting as the bus side.
Chris Hebbron
10/10/12 – 09:00
The above photograph is featured on the ‘sct61’ website, along with another photo of LTO 10 in the caption of which it is asserted that Skills ordered three of these vehicles and that it was two, rather than one, which were diverted to Gash of Newark. LNN 353 (Gash DD7) was apparently intended to become Skills No.30 (LTO 30) and LRR 403 Skills No.20 (LTO 20). I haven’t been able to retrieve the Gash fleet number of LRR 403.
Yet another independent from the Doncaster area it would be interesting to know just how many there were in the heyday of bus transport. Rossie Motors mainly ran a regular service between Rossington and Doncaster jointly with Doncaster Corporation, Blue Ensign and East Midland must of been a busy route to make it worth while for four operators. The bus above was a thirty foot version of the Daimler CV series hence the 30 suffix code. From what I have come up with, when the 27 ft version of the CVD or G were built to the 30 foot length the code changed to CVD/G6-30 which makes sense. This vehicle is rather rare as the majority of Daimler CVs built around the time this one was were CVGs that is having the Gardner engine. In 1980 this bus transferred to the South Yorkshire PTE (SYPTE) and was numbered 1160 in their fleet. There are also references to the Daimler coding ending with “DD” which I presume stands for double decker, so that would make the above bus a Daimler CVD6-30DD.
I worked for Rossie Motors in mid/late 60’s. Loved this bus. Very strong & powerful engine. Good ol’ 220. A fav’ with all the crews at that time.
Andy
28/02/12 – 07:58
I believe 220 AWY still survives in the hands of Isle Coaches of Owston Ferry. There is a recent picture here //www.flickr.com/ Sadly, it appears to be deteriorating.
John Darwent
28/02/12 – 12:13
…..next to a Thurgood Commer, John?
David Oldfield
28/02/12 – 12:13
According to Bus Lists on the Web, this was the last Daimler engined CV series bus supplied to home operators. Another Doncaster area Independent, Leon of Finningley, took delivery of 432 KAL which had a Roe H41/32F body in July 1961, and this bus was described as CVD650-30DD, which indicates that it was powered by the larger 10.6 litre engine. By inference, this suggests that the Rossie Motors bus, like the few CVDs delivered after the heyday of the Daimler engine finished in the mid 1950s – Swindon (3), Coventry, Glasgow and Potteries (1 each)- had the 8.6 litre CD6 engine. This powerplant was never noted for performance in its naturally aspirated form, so Andy’s comment from personal experience about the “very strong and powerful engine” is interesting. Was this engine turbocharged, or did the bus have the larger CD650 motor? Geoff Hilditch always maintained that Daimler gave up too early on its diesel engine manufacturing, and further development would have yielded dividends. My own experience of the Daimler engine is limited to the turbocharged version fitted to one of the Halifax Daimler CVs, and that bus went up hills like a mountain goat with its posterior on fire, so GGH might well have been right.
Roger Cox
28/02/12 – 17:29
The PSV Circle Fleet History for Potteries states that Potteries H8900 originally had an ‘exhaust driven turbocharger’ fitted to its Daimler engine. It was fitted with a Leyland 0.600 engine in 1964 – making it unique as a CVL6-30?? It ran in this mode in a quite satisfactory manner, mainly on the 12/13 Hanley to Bentilee services whilst I was at the Company in the late 60s. Except that some crews disliked the inability for conversations between driver and conductor as they could on an Atlantean. Some wanted the glass in the small window between the cab and platform…..whilst others wanted it out!! Oh dear!
Ian Wild
28/02/12 – 18:06
The suspiciously Dennis Lancet-looking front hub of GWN 432 (next to the Daimler d/d in the flickr photo) caught my eye, and a quick google reveals that it is a Lancet. Wonderful chassis; pity about the styleless body. Is it a replacement?
Ian Thompson
29/02/12 – 07:13
If you go back to the owner’s photostream there’s a detailed history of both vehicles in a caption. Here is a quick link to view it.
David Beilby
29/02/12 – 07:17
Yes Ian, the body is apparently a Thurgood replacement as David spotted and it is a Dennis Lancet.
John Darwent
29/02/12 – 07:19
Yes, I think it was rebodied in the late fifties. I’m sure there was an article on it in Bus & Coach Preservation Magazine a year or two back.
Eric
29/02/12 – 07:20
Ian, the body on Dennis Lancet J3 GWN 432 is a Thurgood FC37F, and, as you indicate, it is a replacement, though what the original body was is difficult to establish. Gleaning info from the internet, it seems that the vehicle was originally owned by Super of Tottenham in 1950, and then later came into the ownership of Jenkins of Skewen who had it rebodied and re-registered, hence the Swansea reg plate. Like you, I find some of the full fronted bodies on vertical engined chassis decidedly uninspiring. The O6 engined Lancet was a masterpiece, and rebodying this one to look like a Bedford is the ultimate indignity.There is another picture of this coach at:- //www.flickr.com/
Roger Cox
29/02/12 – 07:24
Re Ian’s question regarding the Dennis, I see that the original flickr picture has a full description. Click on the large blue “Photo” word and the picture shrinks. It is a 1950 Dennis Lancet with a 1960 Thurgood body having originally been a half cab built by Yeates.
Richard Leaman
29/02/12 – 07:23
Its always most interesting to read the varied views of those in the know about the features of individual vehicle models. My experience of the Daimler standard engine fitted to the CWD6 and CVD6 examples was most favourable – at Samuel Ledgard’s we had two utilities with Duple bodies, and four heavier Brush models from Exeter, and of course the famous (or notorious) entire class of ten Brush ones from Leeds City Transport – the premature sale of the latter to be operated on the same roads by the independent rival caused a rumpus in the Council Chamber like Guy Fawkes would have loved to launch successfully at Westminster – an immediate resolution was passed that no such embarrassing situation should ever be allowed again !! I also drove several of the former Wallace Arnold coaches rebodied by Roe as double deckers. I always found them to be powerful and fast, and their only disadvantage was that the exhaust manifold was next to the cab and uncomfortably hot in good weather – but there again pleasantly warm in Winter – “you can’t have it all ways” as they say.
Chris Youhill
01/03/12 – 07:54
I’m sure GGH was right about the Daimler engine from an engineering point of view, but commercially there probably wouldn’t have been much point in further development. Interest in Daimler engines all but disappeared around 1950 as soon as Gardner were once again able to satisfy demand. I strongly suspect that Daimler would not have started updating the CD6 and experimenting with turbochargers if it hadn’t been for the secrecy surrounding Gardner’s development of the 6LX at the time the maximum length of double deckers was increased to 30ft. After the 6LX came on stream, the only way Daimler would have sold engines in any numbers would have been to withdraw the Gardner option. That of course is exactly what Albion did immediately after the war (with the exception of special orders) – and look what happened to them!
Peter Williamson
01/03/12 – 09:20
London Transport’s ‘D’ class contained around 10 CWD’s among a sea of CWA’s. They lasted about 4 years and, in this case, it was less to do with being non-standard and more of being more difficult to service, with the timing mechanism being at the rear of the engine. I have a feeling that the exhaust manifold was nearest the driving cab and ‘cooked’ the drivers in hot weather. However, one of these had a chalk notice above the windscreen ‘D???, the fastest ‘D’ of all’! Anyway, with AEC engines coming spare from scrapped STL’s, out they came.
Chris Hebbron
02/03/12 – 07:23
The pioneer, at least in Britain, of employing timing gears at the back of the engine was Dennis, who also went a bit further by employing four valves per cylinder. Oil engined Dennis Lancets were very popular with independent operators, who did not have the sophisticated engineering facilities of the larger companies and municipalities, yet the quite complex O4 and O6 engines earned an excellent reputation for quality and reliability. The location of timing gears only became an issue if other aspects of the engine fell short of acceptable reliability standards, when the removal of the entire power unit became necessary for rectification. Daimler, and later Meadows also used rear mounted timing gears, but, in both cases, the quality of design and manufacture failed to achieve the necessary degree of dependability. Albion, like Gardner, used a front mounted timing chain in their 9.0 and 9.9 litre engines, but, unlike Gardner, the chain of the Albion had a propensity to stretch, so that repeated and very difficult adjustment was required to maintain performance. In the early post war period, Sidney Guy sought to compete more strongly with AEC and Leyland by offering the Arab with a larger engine than the 6LW, and he asked Albion if they would supply him with the 9.9 litre EN243. In the event this came to nothing, perhaps because of the Albion’s timing chain shortcomings, though it is possible that merger talks were already under way with Leyland. Guy then turned to the Meadows 10.35 litre 6DC630 (with rear mounted timing gears) which also proved to be a broken reed. Not until the advent of the superb 6LX did the smaller makers have access to a motor of suitable size and quality that was able to take on AEC and Leyland. Gardners also had a right hand exhaust manifold to keep drivers warm!
Roger Cox
02/03/12 – 07:26
I seem to remember that when Rossie received their first two Fleetlines, this vehicle and the other, the ‘ordinary’ CVG6/30, BYG 890B, were dispatched to Charles H Roe for refurbishing and re-painting. When they came back, they had the nice ROSSIE MOTORS fleetname in gold letters (which they hadn’t had before) to match the Fleetlines. This gave Rossie four very good high capacity double deckers for a service which only required a maximum of two vehicles from each operator!
Chris Barker
05/03/12 – 07:38
Thanks, Roger and Richard,for the Flickr link. I’d better put cards on the table, head above the parapet etc and confess that I don’t like droopy-swoopy coach bodies, or any kind of “streamlining” for that matter, on traditional halfcab chassis. I feel they work better on underfloors, where the droop at the back is partly balanced by a slightly drooping front, and the Burlingham Seagull got it dead right. (Thanks to Neville M for that fine article.) Curved-waistrail bodies, with their plethora of window and panel shapes and sizes must have been far more expensive to make, repair and carry replacements for. Roger Cox’s words “…rebodying this one to look like a Bedford is the ultimate indignity” perfectly sums up my feelings about that Thurgood body and the attitude of mind that led to its being fitted. Those two recently-posted handsome Alexander Greyhound PS2s (MWA 761 and 761) exemplify to my mind how a halfcab single-decker should look, whether bus or coach.
Ian Thompson
06/03/12 – 08:24
I think everyone is being a bit harsh about the Dennis, possibly because the full story, which appeared in B&CP in September 2009, hasn’t been told here. The point is that by the time it came to be rebodied, it was already no longer a half-cab, but merely a chassis with the remains of a burned-out body sold to a dealer as an insurance write-off. At 10 years old, it is a tribute to the quality of the chassis that anyone wanted to do anything other than scrap it. Rebodying it as a halfcab in 1960 would have been ludicrous, and I’d hazard a guess that getting Thurgood to do the job, rather than a mainstream builder, made enough difference in the cost to make it worthwhile.
Peter Williamson
06/03/12 – 12:14
Very true Peter. I am a VW man and am very sniffy about people hacking (real Type 1) Beetles about. On the other hand, many of these HAVE been saved from the scrap yard and given a second life. That being the case, fine and dandy!
David Oldfield
06/03/12 – 12:15
I am sure that most of us would agree with Ian that the traditional half cab coach design was a classic in its own right, but Peter’s comments are valid. I believe that something of the order of 900 Lancet III chassis were produced, of which only a modest number survives, and, as with all half cab coaches and buses, many of these were disposed of prematurely with the advent of underfloor engines. That Jenkins of Skewen should have had sufficiently high a regard for this chassis to have it rebodied for further service in the then “modern” age is a testament to Dennis quality. Assuredly, had the operator not done so, this vehicle would almost certainly not be still with us today. In the context of its times, having regard to the dismal contemporary efforts of Duple, Plaxton and others on Bedford and Ford chassis, the Thurgood body is not too bad.
Roger Cox
09/03/12 – 17:30
Don’t get me wrong! I’m more than grateful that Lancet GWN 432 has been preserved and admire the present owners for the effort they put into its care. It’s just that the body’s too redolent of my pet hate, the Duple Super Vega, a topic I’d better keep off…
Ian Thompson
21/05/13 – 12:03
220 AWY is indeed with Isle Coaches at Owston Ferry, along with GWN 432 as part of their heritage fleet. They also have PUJ 783, a Burlington Seagull/Leyland Tiger Cub.
Kenton Rose
28/06/13 – 14:26
GWN 432 is now at Hornsby Motors Ashby and is to be restored for their centenary next year.
Tony Harrison
29/06/13 – 07:19
Just spotted the discussion re Thurgood-bodied Dennis Lancet GWN 432. We ran the story in B&CP, as gratefully acknowledged above, in 2009, when the coach was owned by my good friend, the late Nigel Woodward of Gainsborough. I have extracted the relevant paragraphs and included them below. As Peter Williamson has pointed out, at the time of the rebody, a ‘modern’ body was the only way forward. The work was carried out by Thurgood as it was ‘local’ to Horseshoe Coaches (Modern Super Coaches’ parent), which had bought the chassis, Thurgood having already carried out some rebodying in this style for companies in the Horseshoe Group. The similarity to a Duple Vega results from the inclusion of a number of standard Vega parts in the body, particularly at the rear. Behind the front dash, the original front dash from its half-cab days (below the driver’s windscreen) is still in situ, complete with circular aperture to accommodate the headlamp!
Philip Lamb
21/03/14 – 18:03
East Midlands took over the Rossington Doncaster service from Red Don,think in the very early 1960s.
Robert Durrant
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
26/08/17 – 07:32
Born and bred in and resident of Rossington from 1940 to 1965 I have many fond memories of Rossie Motors and their dedication to Dainler. From 1951 to 1957 I was, along with other Rossoites, transported by Rossie Motors to Maltby Grammar School a round trip of some 20 miles, usually by a double decker but on rare and welcome occasions by a luxury (to us) single decker coach. I still recall one occasion when overnight snow lay hard packed on the steep road at the entrance to the school. After the passengers alighted the driver was unable to set off as the drive wheels spun on the hard packed snow. The problem was solved by the erstwhile passengers pushing at the back of the bus to get it going, a practice that in the present days health and safety concerns would raise more than a few eyebrows.
Thomas Burrows & Sons 1948 Daimler CVD6 Wilks & Meade C33F
This shot first appeared on the “Do You Know” page and my thanks to Terry Malloy for his excellent investigating which has solved just what it was and who owned it.
Thomas Burrows & Sons were based at Wombwell which is about 5 miles South East of Barnsley on the road to Mexborough. They had a varied selection of vehicles and like most independent operators quite a few were second-hand, but this particular coach and its sister GWX 168 No 58 were both delivered new to Burrows in March 1948. Terry also came up with the information that both were withdrawn from service in December 1963 and that this particular coach was hired in 1952 by West Yorkshire Road Car for at least 2 Blackpool journeys. Maybe West Yorkshire hired it for the 1952 summer season if you know please leave a comment.
I have to admit I am not all that knowledgeable about Wilks & Meade the body builder of this coach but according to Terry again they were part of the Leeds based coach operator Wallace Arnold. If anyone can supply information re Wilks & Meade it would be appreciated.
Off at a bit of a tangent here but Wallace Arnold owned a few service bus operators, in the Leeds area they had Kippax Motors and Farsley Omnibus and in the Scarborough area they owned Hardwicks. I am not sure where Hardwicks were based but I know that dad and I circa 1963 went from Scarborough to the terminus somewhere in the Yorkshire Wolds and back again just to say we had done it. I know it was a Leyland Titan and I think it had rear doors.
I think somebody somewhere could probable do quite a good article about Wallace Arnold, could it be you perhaps?
The vehicle might well have been hired to West Yorkshire, but not for an entire summer. This is what would have happened: On summer Saturdays, West Yorkshire had an enormous traffic from Leeds to both the east and west coast holiday resorts. To cope with this, they set up a temporary overflow bus station in Saville Street, Leeds, and hired literally dozens of extra coaches from independent operators to act as duplicates to the normal stage carriage services. Passengers were directed onto these hired-in duplicates, and when they were full, conductors would collect the fares before each coach left, going direct, non-stop to the appropriate destination. This is, no doubt, how GWX 167 and its sister were used.
Roy Burke
Your mention of Hardwicks is interesting – though I could not have told you the name. I remember in 1966 going on a school geography field trip to Scarborough. If we are talking about the same company, the service went (like the clappers) along the A170 as far as Allerston. (Don’t ask me why it didn’t continue through Thornton le Dale to Pickering which was a mere 3 miles farther on and a much more obvious destination – but it didn’t!) Dark red all-Leyland double decker with platform doors as I recall it. I’m not sure if the depot might have been in Allerston.
Stephen Ford
A correction to my original copy I stated that Wallace Arnold owned a bus company in Scarborough called Hargreaves this was wrong my thanks to C Youhill for pointing out it was actually Hardwicks. He also added the following the routes information is most interesting.
The two PD2 double deckers were brand new to the outstation, as was a PD3 in 1966 which was joined in 1968 by its twin after original allocation to Farsley Omnibus. Also various Wallace Arnold coaches were downgraded for the service to Snainton, Hutton Buscel and Ebberston. A large contract to RAF Fylingdales was also undertaken from Scarborough.
Chris Youhill
Ref Hardwicks and Fylingdales contracts. When Scarborough & District was formed following the changes with Hardwicks & United the contract was operated using two minibuses. These were painted in a revised livery, fitted with semi coach seating, and were only allowed inside the perimeter of Fylingdales if driven by one of there own staff. Scarborough & District drivers were not allowed on the property.
Terry Malloy
Hardwick”s operated from a depot in Snainton. They were started in a small almost farm building then moved twice till eventually to the depot they used until they ceased operations. I travelled to school for 5 years by Hardwick”s and knew all the drivers very well. Excellent service, not like some of todays buses.
Steve Adamson
Regarding the garage, In Snainton on a small side road off from the A170 (down from what was until recently Des Winks VW and is now a garage owned by a second hand car dealer) and before the Coachman Pub is a large garage with full height sliding doors. I recall this being used by Hardwick”s, though do check, I was 4 at the time. Hardwick”s operated from a small garage in Victoria Road Scarborough (now a car park next to the newsagent. The terminus was always Ebberston as far as I recall with the buses travelling via the A170 to the ‘top stop’ then going down the village and bearing left at the bottom to return to Snainton (almost passing the garage referred to earlier.
Martin
The reason why Hardwick”s service did not extend beyond Ebberston to Pickering was because this was in the days before deregulation. United Automobile held the licence and operated a Scarborough-Ebberston-Pickering-Ripon service numbered 128. Between Scarborough and Ebberston the United and Hardwick”s service travelled the same road. In regulated days operators were very protective of their services and competitors would be kept well at bay. The original Hardwick”s service started in the 1920s and therefore when regulation began they would have been granted the licence to operate their existing service which was just between Scarborough and Ebberston. The front outline of the former Hardwick”s garage opposite the Coachman Inn in Snainton can still be seen on Google Streetview. The heightened roof section to take the double deckers can be clearly made out – the lower height doors on either side held the single deck vehicles. (Google maps and Streetview can be rather strange and, odd though it may sound, first key in “Croft Lane, Silpho, Scarborough” to get started. The white lane forming a triangle with the A170 and B1258, near where the “Coachman Inn” label is, is close to where the building stands. The Coachman Inn is actually on the opposite side of the road than the map shows!) If you would like to see some old Hardwick”s timetables and photos of the double deckers someone has mentioned I invite you to take a look at my Fotopic site: here.
David Slater
26/05/11 – 07:02
Paul Carter, in his various volumes concerning operators in Cambridgeshire, states that the name of this bodybuilder is usually spelt wrongly – it should be Wilks and Meade. This firm built three double deck bodies on Daimler CVD6 chassis for Premier Travel in 1950. The quality of construction proved to be decidedly poor, and major rebuilding had to be undertaken by the operator very early in the lives of these vehicles.
Roger Cox
Thanks for that I have corrected my spelling.
14/06/11 – 08:18
The contract to Fylingdales was operated by Wallace Arnold from Scarborough and Whitby. I lived in Snainton, and you could almost set your watch by the bus coming through, 7.25 am, 3.25pm and 11.25 pm. They were always in a rush. Hardwicks buses were started by George Hardwick in the 20’s I think. Some of the drivers I remember include, George Alden, Walter Ford, Eddie Stephenson, John Jennings, Sid Ward and Malcolm Chambers.
Steve Adamson
26/10/12 – 07:18
My granddad was Harry Meade (the Meade side of the Wilks & Meade partnership). My mother who is still alive and living in Yorkshire is Harry’s daughter.
Nick Freeman
26/10/12 – 10:08
Like many others, I’m always fascinated by little coincidences connected with bus and coach operation, so here’s quite a good one concerned with the massive West Yorkshire summer traffic to the East Coast for which the two Burrows Daimlers were often hired. West Yorkshire had a large amount of Bristol K6Bs, one series of which were registered GWX 101 – 130. When brand new, GWX 108 (751, later DB23) was converted by the Company into a double deck coach and was a beautiful vehicle in rich cream and maroon, with coach pattern lovely green moquette seating. It appeared regularly on service 43 to Scarborough, and so it is practically certain that GWX 108 will have been duplicated by, or at least shared the A 64 road with, Burrows’ GWX 167/8 on the coastal route at some time or other. I suppose some would say “Little things please little minds” – guilty as charged yer ‘onour !!
Chris Youhill
26/10/12 – 14:11
Well, Chris, you’re great on reminding us of nostalgic moments from our past. I have only a vague memory of DB23, having only seen it briefly in Rougier Street without a chance to get a good look. However, do you remember the rather less successful treatment of DB31 (LWR 417)? As for your reference to WY’s massive summer traffic from Leeds, it reminded me of a (typical WY) scenario when loading passengers onto hired-in coaches. In addition to the stage carriage service to Scarborough, there was an express service, that cost something like 2/6d or 3/6d more. However, because there were so many stage carriage duplicates, the passenger experience was generally the same on either service. There were separate stage carriage and express queues in Saville Street, and we had strict instructions not to allow to two streams of passengers to get mixed up because the company didn’t want any passengers to realise they had paid more for exactly the same journey.
Roy Burke
27/10/12 – 06:02
You missed a treat Roy in not having a really good look at DB 23. I had a school friend who was “well in” at Grove Park Works and we were allowed to see it in there just as it was completed. It was a magnificent sight, never having even been in the open air at that time. We were very impressed indeed, and I always felt really sorry in later years when it was returned to service bus work and painted red. I believe that DBW 31 (8’00″ wide) had been in normal service a short while before being converted, and what a sad contrast it made with the other beauty. It was initially done in black with incongruous and cheap looking silver metal mouldings of an appearance far from professional – looking like something from one of the very smallest “streamlined modern” coach building concerns. The black areas were later changed to standard red which was no improvement at all. It was, to be fair, very rarely that WYRCC slipped up like that, their design and workmanship normally being impeccable.
Chris Youhill
29/10/12 – 06:51
I tend to agree with your sentiments Chris. Pictures I have seen of DB23 show it in the very attractive cream and maroon livery you describe. However, the livery inflicted on DBW31 was quite simply ‘over the top’, even for the flamboyant fifties. The style was just too fussy, and combined with the built-up front nearside wing, looked altogether wrong. To some, a little like turning a silk purse into a sow’s ear! West Yorkshire definitely slipped up there as you say, and one can’t help thinking that if they had applied DB23’s simpler coach livery to DBW31’s fuller lines, it would have lent a far more prestigious air. Definitely a case of ‘less is more’. I wonder what it looked like from the back….
Brendan Smith
08/02/13 – 06:29
I have fond memories of Tommy Burrows buses from circa 1968 when my impoverished wife-to-be and myself used to catch their 99 service from Wakefield bus station to Rawmarsh via Barnsley and Wombwell. It was a cheap summer Sunday afternoon out and quite a long ride time wise from Sandal, Wakefield to the Rawmarsh terminus. I believe the fare at the time was 5/6 (27.5p) return each. At the time I was an apprentice draughtsman at Bison Concrete in Stourton, Leeds and used to catch the same Burrows 99 service home to Wakefield outside the works gates at 5.00pm. I was attracted to the bright red livery of the Buses.
Michael Taylor
01/04/13 – 17:29
Regarding request for photos of United buses which operated the 128 Scarborough to Helmsley service and views at Pickering depot, I have uncovered this view of two of the Pickering based buses. Copyright is Colin W Routh.
Ken Hoggett
06/04/14 – 08:28
Just a note about the Scarborough & District fleet name. This was originally used by E H Robinsons in the early 1900’s when they had the largest fleet of all weather charabancs in the North East based at the railway yard in Scarborough. These were mainly Plaxton bodied Lancia’s as Robinsons were the main agents for Lancia in the area. Robinsons were taken over by United in 1926 who inherited the S&D fleet name.
Chris Tinker
28/02/17 – 06:16
I’m a descendant of Thomas Burrows and recently found this article – it’s great to see such enthusiasm for days gone by. Does anyone have any information about Thomas Burrows and his family that they would be able to share with me? Any memory would be appreciated.
Andrew Jackson
28/02/17 – 07:23
Andrew Jackson – if you go to the ‘Fleet Lists’ column on this site there is a substantial fleet list (my own compilation and not confirmed as correct) that covers most of the vehicles owned by Thomas Burrows. It would be great if any of your wider family have any fleet photos to share on here.
Les Dickinson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
29/10/18 – 06:02
Andrew Jackson-there will be a book coming out on “Tommy’s Bus” hopefully in 2019, if you contact me through this website I can give you more details. Look forward to hearing from you.
Reliance were a very small independent operator, who ran a service from York To Helmsley, along the B1363. The owner had a motor repair garage a few miles out of York on that road. As far as I am aware, in the 1950’s, Reliance only had one vehicle – a 1950 Daimler half cab in green and cream livery; at some point, this was replaced with an underfloor Daimler in orange and cream. I remember the half cab Daimler being driven by an elderly gentleman – the proprietor – or a younger lady who I understand was his daughter. Reliance’s terminus in York was Exhibition Square. The term ‘Square’ is slightly misleading, because the square is only a vacant space outside the York City Art Gallery on a short street connecting Museum Street and Bootham. It provided a car parking space for visitors to the art gallery or some York City offices which were situated along the street; the York Theatre Royal is on the other side. However, it did enable buses to turn without reversing, and thus was a practical terminus both for Reliance and for York Pullman Bus Co., whose service to Stamford Bridge also started and ended there. (the Old Bus Photos site has a great picture of a York Pullman AEC Regent V, taken at its terminus in Exhibition Square). Exhibition Square was an important setting down and picking up point for local buses, (as well as a picking up point for a number of West Yorkshire longer distance services – e.g. Service 80 to Thirsk, 43 to Scarborough, 91 to Whitby), because it is close to York city centre. There was a line of bus stops on both sides of the road; Reliance’s stop was on the side opposite to the position of the York Pullman photo, closest to Bootham Bar. The route to Helmsley was very rural, with only a few villages along the route. I don’t know the frequency of the service but the traffic volume would not have justified a great frequency. Reliance did, however, cater for a considerable volume of passengers who worked in York, and its early evening departure to Helmsley was always pretty full. It was unique to see a lady driving a bus in those days. I remember an old West Yorkshire driver, (a chap called ‘Digger’ Ward, who operated the West Yorkshire city tour coach), telling me – whether this is true or not, I don’t know – that the gear change pedal used to work the Daimler pre-selector could occasionally kick back, and he would speculate on how the lady would cope with that without breaking her ankle. Happy days!
Copy contributed by Roy Burke with a photo by Paul Haywood
Thanks Roy for a fascinating insight into a company I never really knew. When I took this photo in Helmsley Market Place in 1959 (using a much valued colour exposure from my Dad’s camera), little did I realise that, 50 years later, it would be “exposed” to an audience then undreamed of. It looks like the driver could be the proprietor?
Paul Haywood
“Digger” Ward was absolutely right about the gear change pedal on the pre-selector Daimlers – well, actually he wasn’t quite right enough as the pedal was likely to do far worse than to kick back – it would kick back twice as far as the normal stop often causing injury to hefty men, never mind to ladies. There were two chief causes. Firstly, if there was wear or poor adjustment in the linkages, the device in the gearbox which was intended to tension the appropriate band would fly through a gap between two with the painful result mentioned. Otherwise failure to either accurately select the required gear on the steering column quadrant, or to depress the gear change pedal fully to the floor, would have the same effect. Many drivers learnt the hard way that it was not a clutch pedal and was not to be treated gently and gradually, but fully and decisively.
Chris Youhill
Reliance was a bigger undertaking than you suggest. Edward Sheriff was the proprietor and his eldest daughter Joan took her PSV test in the early war years. She became Mrs Thornton on her marriage and was still involved with the business in the 1970s. By this date her younger sister Carol had taken on the business with her husband Richard Shelton. In the 1950s the service to Helmsley ran every three hours and the fleet numbered nine buses, kept at Sutton on the Forest and at Helmsley. Pullman buses to Stamford Bridge left from Merchantgate, and the Linton and Easingwold buses from Exhibition Square. Reliance is still running today in the very capable hands of a new owner.
Anonymous
Naturally, I defer to ‘anonymous’s better information on Reliance; I really only came across them by way of seeing their Daimler in Exhibition Square and on car trips out of York. They are also quite right about York Pullman’s services – just age and cloudy memory on my part, I’m afraid. I was simply not thinking about their Linton service. It also occurs to me that ‘anonymous’ must know more about Reliance than he or she has told. A three hour service between York and Helmsley certainly wouldn’t justify nine vehicles and two depots, so what else did they do? I wonder if they could possibly be persuaded to tell more?
Roy Burke
Reliance still operate two routes from York to Easingwold, often with double deckers. I have a 1938 timetable which shows 7 return journeys from Helmsley to York, Monday to Friday, every two hours, 9 on Saturdays (hourly between Brandsby to York) and 5 on Sundays. There were late departures from York for theatre/cinema patrons. There was also a Friday market working from Nunningtom and Harome to Helmsley. The route was cut back to Brandsby in the 1960’s and later to Crayke. The through route to Helmsley was reinstated a few years ago but was obviously not successful and withdrawn shortly afterwards. The company currently have a green and cream livery and are based at Sutton on the Forest, north of York. In 1964 the company address was at St Peter’s Grove, York. Viewers of the soap “Emmerdale” will have seen a Reliance vehicle making an occasional appearance on the service to “Hotten”
Derek Vause
20/05/11 – 22:25
Reliance in the 1950’s was indeed a bigger operator as stated in one of the earlier posts. Apart from the regular service between Easingwold and York which would stop at individual homes/farms, official stops and not, along the York Road (B1363) as well as villages along the way, they provided a regular service for pickups and delivery of school children to Easingwold Grammar/Modern school from the surrounding villages like Sutton, Huby, East Moor, Stillington and further to the West and North. The original location was a petrol station and a substantial repair/depot on the York Road North of York South of Sutton on Forest which housed a number of vehicles, like the half cab style, all of them with manually sliding doors, a smaller type with the pushed forward bonnet, there were two of these as well as a number of newer types. All in the green and cream livery except one of the newer type which had automatic doors, this for some reason was orange and perhaps some cream trim.
John
23/07/11 – 08:41
Roy Burke asks why Reliance needed 9 vehicles to operate the service from York to Helmsley. Today services are much more frequent to meet the different travel habits of the population, but in the past this was different. There were key times when everyone wanted to travel, eg to York in the morning and out to the villages at teatime. Reliance regularly had three buses on some departures, one all the way to Helmsley and the others along part of the route. Even when I knew the company well in the 1970s they had two buses full out of York together at teatime. The present service is very high quality and has received national acclaim, a great credit to the owner.
Anonymous
16/09/11 – 09:24
Travelled in a Barnaby built coach in Devon at Greenaway. Agatha Christies place. The Driver told us there are only three Barnabys left in service/preservation. Can any one throw any light on this please.?
David Buttle
17/09/11 – 08:15
The only extant Barnaby-bodied coach I can think of is JVY 516, a preserved AEC Regal III ex York Pullman.
Peter Williamson
17/09/11 – 17:19
The “Classic Buses” website lists five half-cab single-deckers that have carried Barnaby bodies. One was re-bodied in 1962 and is now in Belgium and one is now a recovery vehicle. That leaves three. One is the York Pullman Regal, there is a York Pullman Dennis Lancet but that seems to be in very poor condition. The only other active one is the Bullock and Sons (Wakefield) PS1. That is likely to have been the one seen in Devon.
There is a shot of AHL 694 taken a few years ago at www.sct61.org.uk in the West Riding pictures There is also a few shots of similar vehicles in service with West Riding.
Chris Hough
04/04/12 – 08:19
After reading about the early years of Reliance I must make a comment. We have an old friend who was brought up at Ampleforth and on a Friday and Saturday night if him and his friends went into York for a night out and there were more than enough passengers for the last bus back to Brandsby Ted Sheriff would follow on behind with his car with the extra passengers. I cannot see them doing that now.
Liz Greene
13/05/12 – 18:45
As well as the preserved AHL 694, West Riding Auto had a number of similar Barnaby bodied buses as Chris indicated. These were inherited from Bullock and Sons (Featherstone) in 1950. Bullocks had been customers of Barnabys since the 1930s having buses/coaches (including double deckers) rebodied by them in Hull during the 1940s.
David Allen
19/05/12 – 07:45
Re Barnaby’s Motor Bodies (Hull) Ltd there is a two-part history of the firm in Vintage Roadscene Vol 7 numbers 27 & 28 which contains an incomplete list of the Commercial non-psv bodies. I did submit a companion article on Barnaby’s Bus and Coach bodies to Messrs I Allan but they were not interested so it was returned to me and it has sat in my filing cabinet ever since. V Roadscene published a readers letter in VR no 29 picking out an error of mine about the final takeover of the firm so perhaps that put an end to it. No praise for the research I had done from 1983-1989 tracing Barnaby’s history from 1872-1960. Edward Sheriff started out with Mr Wilfred Mennell at Haxby with a 14 seat Ford T each, Bodied and painted by Barnabys at Hull in ‘Lake & Yellow’ 21st February 1923 the Fords began a York-Haxby service named “The Cosy Car Service”. The later “Reliance” York to Helmsley service was the result of Mr Sheriff ‘going it alone’ after 1930.
Ian Gibbs
19/05/12 – 09:19
Don’t be put off by nit-pickers. We all make mistakes – I know I do – and I’ve been pulled up occasionally by people on this forum. (Quite rightly). If your research was sound and most of it accurate, perhaps you should revisit it and revise it with corrections. Histories of small but not insignificant companies are fascinating – and not very common.
David Oldfield
14/12/12 – 16:20
How many people know that Barnaby built one of only two Centre entrance Utility Double deckers, it was built on a 1933 AEC Regal chassis in 1943 and operated for Felix of Hatfield near Doncaster
Mr Anon
05/12/17 – 14:08
Whilst the present operations of Reliance are somewhat outside the timescale of the Old Buses website, the company now has a comprehensive website of its own and our members may wish to see the present day timetables and fleet news by way of continuity. There is also a company history section. https://reliancebuses.co.uk/
Mr Anon
28/06/18 – 06:37
I have just purchased AHL 694 the Leyland Barnaby PS1 and intend to start a sympathetic restoration & recommissioning. Any history would be gratefully received, especially colours when new to Bullocks.
Aubrey Kirkham
29/06/18 – 06:25
I have just submitted a picture to Sct61 showing AHL694 with a representation of Bullock livery applied to tidy the vehicle up. It may be a few days before it appears on that site. Also Dewsbury Bus Museum may be interested in keeping in touch with you and may be able to assist with information from their archive.
Ken Aveyard
30/06/18 – 11:03
Good to see you have purchesed AHL. I have the only other preserved Barnaby JVY 516. My recollection is that AHL whilst a runner needs a lot of wood replacing under the panels but presume you know that as you are looking to restore. Any help I can give let me know.
Roger Burdett
31/03/19 – 07:20
I can’t contribute, anything technical, but all these posts bring back childhood memories. When I was a boy, around 12yrs old, I caught the Reliance bus from Huby to York. I had five shillings every Saturday, which I earned from hard work. I would go to the Cinema in York, which offered a choice of five or six cinemas, have fish, chips and peas, bread and butter, and a pot of tea, 2/6d and catch the bus home. The last bus left the De Grey Rooms, Exhibition Square at 10pm, full to the gunwales, if you missed it, you walked the nine miles to Huby. Sherrif’s had a garage on Wiggington Road on the way from York to Sutton on Forest. I am now 89years old but I remember later when I lived at Brandsby, the service operated, thru Brandsby, Crayke, Sutton, York.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Manchester Corporation 1954 Daimler CVG6 Metro Cammell H32/28R
In 1965 Manchester had 398 Daimler CVs all rear entrance. Out of the 398 158 of them had the 7·0 litre 5 cylinder Gardner 5LW diesel engine the rest having the more powerful 8·4 litres, six cylinder Gardner 6LW. They also had one CLG5 registration PND 490 fleet number 4490 which was delivered in 1955 it must of been one of the last of the CL models as production ceased in 1955. The CL was a lightweight version of the CV it was in fact 10cwt lighter but most of its weight saving features were either available or incorporated into the CV so in 1955 it was the end of the CL. The last five in the last batch of front engined Daimlers delivered to Manchester were CCG6s the middle C stood for the Constant mesh gearbox that was fitted, this made a total of 404 it would of been 405 but for some reason GVR 336 – 4034 had been withdrawn, any one know the reason why? Along with the Daimler CVs Manchester also had 160 Crossley DD42s and 570 Leyland Titans all of which were rear entrance vehicles, But at the same time rear engined front entrance Atlanteans and Fleetlines were being bought in large quantities, so the switch to front entrance vehicles did not involve a front engined vehicle. I thought that was a little strange. So I checked out Liverpool corporation they also switched the same way, though they did have one front entrance Regent V which was classed as experimental. On checking Leeds City Transport I think they also only had five front entrance front engined vehicles Daimler CVG6LX-30s which it would appear were bought for one specific route anyway. So the switch from front engined rear entrance to rear engined front entrance double deckers does not appear to be that strange after all, it may have something to do with the size of the fleet!!!
In 1971 I went up to music college and CVG6s, like the one in the picture, were still very much around. They trundled around the flat-lands of South Manchester and the Cheshire plain with no problem, despite their age – particularly on the 44 to Ringway Airport (Manchester International now) and 46 to Styall (just short of Wilmslow). They were not as sprightly as the PD2s, nor especially the North Western Renowns, which charged down the Wilmslow Road and Palatine Road. I read recently somewhere that, despite their manual boxes, many drivers preferred the PD2s. The CCG6s were “foisted” on both Manchester and Salford Corporations in equal small numbers. They had the Guy “crash” box (at a time when Daimler and Guy had been brought together under Jaguar ownership) and were hated as much as the Leylands were revered. They were, however, offered at a knock-down price to sweeten the pill. [Pity, because they had the musical quality beloved of enthusiasts on contemporary Guy Arabs.] I cannot remember whether it was here on this site, or elsewhere, that I recently read that putting a forward entrance on a front engined chassis caused an unforeseen weakness in body structure not evident with the entrance behind the rear axle. The Liverpool bus mentioned about was part of their experimental fleet and Sheffield had only around 30 forward entrance vehicles. I seem to think the Leeds buses were for the 72 and one of them survives in preservation. Engineers actually knew what they were talking about and they would talk to each other. Often gricers only find out with the benefit of historical hindsight. [It took nearly fifteen years for Leyland to get the Atlantean right with the AN68! That was probably another, better reason, to stick with the “old”.]
David Oldfield
The five Leeds forward entrance Daimlers were originally intended for and were employed on the 72 service to Bradford, jointly operated with the latter Corporation, where they were of a similar layout to the blue vehicles on the route. When Bradford went “rear engined” the Leeds buses were firstly used on the services to Garforth, Kippax and Ledston Luck which had been taken over from Kippax and District (Wallace Arnold). Later the Leeds five saw more general use, although predominantly on the services from Moortown and Meanwood via City to Morley. Immediately after the formation of the WYPTE all five were transferred to Huddersfield (Kirklees) where they “fitted in better” and I took a picture of one in Longroyd Bridge Depot boasting the idyllic destination “Salendine Nook.” One of the five is indeed in preservation but I believe not yet fully restored.
Chris Youhill
The 5 Leeds front entrance Daimlers were CVG6LX-30 models and were bought for the joint 72 Leeds Bradford service, Bradford were using AEC Regent Vs with MCW bodywork at that time. The Leeds buses were later used on the Garforth services. Following the advent of the PTE they moved to Huddersfield
Chris Hough
Chris Youhill is normally reliable in everything he says, so maybe there are two! The Leeds Daimler I refer to was, until recently, running – resplendent in Huddersfield livery – in Steve Morris’s preserved fleet at Quantock Motor Service. [I drove for last year’s Minehead event where it performed all day.] I think it is one of those which was up for sale because of his downsizing.
David Oldfield
Although Manchester 4490 was often described as a CLG5, later wisdom has it that this was a model that never actually went into production. Either one or two prototypes were completed (in Alan Townsin’s book on post-war Daimlers, ‘The Best of British Buses No 11’, the text appears to conflict with the photograph captions on this point), but operators were not happy to accept all of the features. As a result, a number of experimental lightweight CVs were built with some but not all of the features of the CL prototypes, and it appears than 4490 was one of these.
Peter Williamson
Thank you indeed to David Oldfield for that most welcome piece of news, as I’m almost certain that the “Steve Morris” one of which I was unaware is not the one I mean. The one that I mentioned has fairly recently been acquired by a Leeds preservationist (a friend of mine who I see very little lately) but I’m pretty certain it had been a playbus fairly near here. I shall ring him at a civilised hour in the morning and find out for sure. So all being well this will be a rise from 20% to 40% in the members of this interesting batch still around. It is to my lasting regret that I was done out of a drive in one of these by a “photo finish.” I was spare one day at the LCT central Leeds Sovereign Street Depot (5 minutes walk from town) and the Inspector told me to go quickly to the Corn Exchange where a bus for Morley was waiting with a full load as the relief driver had not turned up. It was “one of the famous five” and I was thrilled, but I was beaten to the cab door by a short head when the absentee turned up. I was just formulating a plan to offer him £10 to disappear for a few minutes when he set off leaving me in the middle of the road like a lemon. So I never did have a drive in a front entrance CVG6LX. Oh, I did once move one around the City centre, empty, when it was out of service for a staff shortage, but that’s not quite the same thing as a live service journey is it ??
Chris Youhill
A follow on from Chris
Excellent news this morning – two of the famous five are still with us !! The one my friend owned – 574 – was sold by him some time ago to a work colleague who was eventually unable to complete it. It is now safe in the hands of the excellent Aire Valley Group at Keighley, who will no doubt fully restore it to a very high standard. The one in Huddersfiled livery – 572 – has indeed been offered for sale and we don’t know yet where it is but presumably it will remain pristine and active in a new owner’s care. This batch statistic must surely give a whole new meaning to the term “proportional representation.
Chris Youhill
Glad to bring the tidings and that there are now two!
David Oldfield
I read with interest the comments about 5 cyl Daimlers on Princess Pkwy from Northenden (Sharston) Depot and the fact that 5 cyls were not used on the road for all day services due to their lack of power. This is strange as the post war batch of Damilers (4000-99) many of which were included in the Northenden allocation and 4510-4549 (many of which were included in Northenden) were used in all day service for many years. Indeed the 45xx were mainly used on the Limited Stop services such as the 101 and 103 and I remember how drivers would throw them round the roundabout at Wythenshawe Road, the buses leaning over at quite an angle. That these 5 cyl buses were short on power is not in doubt. The performance of the early post war batch was very poor but then the Leyland PD1 was also not a very good performer with its 7.4 litre engine. However fuel consumption on such buses was rather better than that of modern buses!
Malcolm Crowe
While puzzling over the reluctance of certain operators to adopt front entrance bodywork on halfcabs, what about the strange reluctance in Manchester to adopt 30ft halfcabs? Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield and Halifax all adopted them very quickly, London had its ugly “cut & shut” RML Routemasters, but Manchester, along with Ashton, SHMD and Stockport stuck with the 27ft length to the end (apart from Stockport’s very last batch) even though others in the conurbation experimented with bigger buses. Hasn’t it always seemed odd that Manchester went so quickly from being a city of small buses to one infested with the vast Mancunians?
David Jones
The change from ancient to modern isn’t quite that surprising since it coincided with the arrival of Ralph Bennett from Bolton and a new boss will always make his/her mark on an organisation. As for PD2/PD3. I have never been an operator, but I once read that the PD3 was never considered to be quite up to PD2 standard. [Could have been power to weight ratio or the strain of extending drive gear a further 3′.] PD2s were always regarded as a quality product and in theory the only difference with the PD3 was the length. PD2s in Manchester were highly regarded by everyone and were more than man enough for the job in hilly North Manchester. In mountainous Sheffield, PD3s could make heavy work of the job!
David Oldfield
Halifax may have adopted the thirty-foot PD3 very quickly, but notably they reverted to the shorter PD2 for many later deliveries. Having seen some of the termini it is not entirely surprising, but the number of PD2s bought later is more than would be warranted for this reason. I suspect performance on gradients also had something to do with it, there are certainly plenty of those in Halifax! Although it’s hard now to think of them that way, 30 foot long buses were once bigger than normal and the extra length of such buses would have caused problems in busy termini such as Manchester Piccadilly if there had been large numbers in the fleet. Obviously that issue was eventually addressed but looking at the current congestion in Piccadilly Gardens is it easy to see how critical this issue can be.
David Beilby
Unlike many operators, Manchester specified maximum capacity (65) for its 27-footers, and could only have got another 8 in a 30-footer. You then have to consider industrial relations, which weren’t easy in Manchester and were negotiated on a garage-by-garage basis. Conductors would have either objected to the extra work or wanted more money, so it probably wasn’t worth the hassle. Eventually 10 Atlanteans were purchased, with 12 extra seats and the advantage of the driver looking after the platform. Even these sat around for ages while the management and the Northenden union did battle (Northenden had the most difficult union and was chosen deliberately, on the basis that once that nut was cracked, the rest would follow more easily). I would also make the point that by the time Ralph Bennett arrived in 1965, Manchester had already abandoned half cabs and been buying Fleetlines steadily for 3 years. All subsequent deckers were 30 feet long (including the first Mancunians) until the very end of 1968 when the first 33-footers arrived.
Peter Williamson
I was a driver in the mid-late 60’s (Birchfields road) and remember seeing a photograph of a double decker standing on eggs. Does anybody have a copy of this? At that time, there was an ‘old bus restoration’ shop in one of the disused entrances.
Peter Dorricott
04/10/11 – 17:17
It’s not strictly true that only Stockport’s last batch were PD3’s. In fact all new double deck vehicles after 1967 were PD3’s which gave a total of 27 in all. There’s a school of thought that the Transport Dept only ordered these because PD2’s were no longer available. The PD3’s did not handle as well as the PD2’s, the steering was exceptionally heavy whilst the performance was no great shakes on Stockport’s hills.
Chris Flynn
04/10/11 – 21:11
Re the debate about front entrance half cabs. I always think that it was peculiar that Grimsby- Cleethorpes specified hinged cab doors on their Daimler CVG/Roe and on the AEC Regent Vs/Roe when the general norm was for sliding doors. Surely with the latter buses could be parked up closer together.
Philip Carlton
06/10/11 – 07:25
It cannot be true that Stockport only ordered PD3s because the PD2 was no longer available – unless Leyland planned to withdraw the PD2 and then changed its mind. According to //www.buslistsontheweb.co.uk/ the last PD2s were delivered to Darwen in April 1969, two months after Stockport received its final PD3s.
Peter Williamson
01/11/11 – 06:40
Manchester Corporation Daimler CVG5 No 4034 referred to above in original text was irreparably damaged following a collision with a lorry in 1951. Lorry emerged from Raby Street and knocked the bus over. (Info extracted from “The Manchester Bus” by Michael Eyre & Chris Heaps)
Andrew Scholes
12/04/12 – 06:13
I was a conductor, then driver from 1959 to 1978 at Birchfields Rd. Depot. I well remember some of the ‘workings out’ we got on Circular (53 Cheetham Hill to Brooks’s Bar/Old Trafford) especially if we had a Princess Rd. Daimler in front! I remember too the ‘crash box’ Daimlers, which were ok to drive on the quiet routes, 85, Chorlton/Albert Sq., or the 20, Chorlton St./Woodford. But they were no match for other Daimlers, and particularly Leylands in the fleet. 3550, although well worn, was a favourite! I particularly enjoyed driving the few 3400’s we had at Birch. I read with interest, Peter Dorricot’s question re the Double Decker standing on eggs. Sorry I can’t offer any info on that, but I do remember the name. Unfortunately, so many years on, I cannot put a face to the name. Those were good days behind the wheel with a conductor, not so great as one man operation took over. But that was progress – I suppose!
Bill Parkinson
28/09/12 – 07:56
The 4400 batch of CVG6s were unique to Manchester. The body was a stopgap between the MCW Phoenix, of which both Manchester and Salford had large batches and were very long lived, and the Orion. The close co-operation between MCTD and MCW led to yet another long lived batch. Delivered from Nov 1953 to July 1954 they survived well into SELNEC days, at least one receiving SELNEC livery, most attaining 19-20 years and many being in all day service all their lives. At least one example inherited a complete rear axle from one of the previous Phoenix bodied Daimlers and the batch had the “distinction” of having one of its number selected as the trial bus for the spray booth scheme which eliminated the cream surrounds of the upper deck windows.
Phil Blinkhorn
29/09/12 – 07:34
To pick up David Beilby’s comment on the Halifax PD2 versus PD3 question, it is true that the later Halifax Titans were all PD2s. The restricted terminal working arrangements at some of the outer destinations was only part of the story. As a Traffic Clerk in Halifax in the mid 1960s, I regularly covered the second half of late turns on the road, and my preference was for the 48/49 Brighouse – Hebden Bridge routes, which were the regular haunt of the 30 footers, PD3 and Regent V. The PD3 was certainly less lively than its shorter stablemate, though the very low first gear would eventually get it up even the stiffest Halifax gradient. I can state from personal experience that the serious shortcoming of the PD3 was its distressing reluctance to stop – it would seem that the braking system was identical to that of the lighter PD2. The synchromesh Regent V (in my view, a pretty unsophisticated piece of machinery – sorry David O), whilst less than ideal in the braking department, was decidedly more reassuring when it came to stopping the thing. The first double deck bus in my experience that had really decent brakes was the Dennis Loline.
Roger Cox
29/09/12 – 12:39
So? The syncro Regent was an unsophisticated machine – especially by today’s standards – but it didn’t make it a bad bus, and AEC brakes were always better than Leylands.
David Oldfield
29/09/12 – 12:39
I was interested to read Roger Cox’s comments about the Halifax’s PD3’s brakes versus the PD2’s. I too worked as a Traffic Clerk at Halifax – though in the early 1970’s – and like him I regularly worked the second half of late turns driving in the evenings, and nearly all day on Saturdays. The 48/49 had been split up into separate routes and converted to OMO just before I started, and since I only did Crew Driving at the time I rarely covered those sections, but worked fairly randomly on all the crew routes. Later I transferred to Driver and have done that until the present time – although now only part-time in semi-retirement. So I drove them on a regular basis until the last one was withdrawn. I must say that although the PD3’s naturally felt a bit heavier to drive than the PD2’s and were a bit harder work to get going, I never really found their brakes to be any less adequate. However, when WYPTE took over we soon afterwards received quite a number of ex-Huddersfield PD3A/2’s with Roe bodies, and these certainly could exhibit a ‘distressing reluctance to stop’, and I had quite a few heart-stopping experiences with some of them. They also used to squeal really loudly. A number of the original Halifax Regent V’s had already been withdrawn by then, and the remaining ones were rather tired and hard work to drive, giving the impression of being not as durable as the Leylands. There were however three ex-Hebble examples and rather unexpectedly these were considerably better and were really nice to drive. In my experience (I also later drove several ex-Bradford ones in service, and others in preservation) Regent V’s could vary tremendously from one operator to another according to their specification. Back to the original topic – Manchester CVG6’s. Before I was at Halifax I was a Schedules Clerk at SELNEC Central, based at the former Salford depot at Frederick Road. Some of these 44xx series Daimlers had been allocated there and I rode on them on a number of occasions. Though like most CVG6’s they were steady plodders (I hate to think what the CVG5 was like), they were highly regarded for their total reliability, and to me seemed to be really solid buses for their age.
John Stringer
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/02/14 – 06:50
I came across the 2012 correspondence re Manchester’s old Daimler CVG5 and -6 buses and I can remember their presence in the south of the city. The 4000-99 batch were always on the 101 service in the early ’60s and also seemed to do the rush-hour extras and school contract work. It seems that the body-weight/engine size combination meant that they could only work ‘flat’ routes such as those around Wythenshawe, but it was a surprise to come across a colour image of one of them running on one of the city’s sink estates-built at the end of a long climb from the city-centre-against a background of houses that were built ca. 1968. The bus had good-looking paintwork and was carrying blinds for a local service (the ‘211’ [now the 201]) but was ‘off-route’ and the number-blinds had the non-standard ‘2-11′ mix instead of the Hyde Road ’21-1’ (based on the former trolley-bus route-number sequence ‘210’ to ‘219’), so it seems to have been pulled from the scrap-line for a special photo-session. It’s hard to believe that the Hyde Road management would condone the release of even a scrap bus for anything as frivolous as this, and the CVG5, given its alleged poor performance would never have worked the area (which only saw the odd, end-of-life, Crossley (2078 was one example) being given an optimistic morning duty that would give it a mostly-downhill trip carrying a full load of passengers. These Daimlers had/have been special to local bus anoraks because of their peculiar exhaust sound-effects, and it’s possible that the picture had some connection with a last-minute attempt to preserve one of them. Does anyone know any more?
This particular vehicle has appeared on this site before, but a comment came in from Stephen Ford requesting any rear or internal shots. So I thought I would oblige, no internal shot I’m afraid but it’s not a bad rear end. I notice on this particular vehicle there is no destination blinds at the rear I do not think it was as easy to have them on front entrance vehicles. I know they had rear destination blinds on the rear entrance Regent IIIs I used for school, the number of times I saw the 63 tootling merrily up the road resulting in me having a one mile walk home or wait an hour for the next one.
If you have any rear or internal shots please feel free to contribute them to the site for everyone else to see.
This bus ..114 was a Huddersfield Joint Omnibus Committee bus it was never fitted with rear number blinds … the Joint omnibus committee vehicles at the time were allowed to carry adverts .. and the space was available for advertisers . The similar buses that were owned purely by the Corporation had rear number blinds fitted up until 1966. The Corporation at the time did not allow any advertisements on the outside of its vehicles.
Colin
In my West Yorkshire gallery this difference is illustrated by a couple of consecutive rear end photos of (3202 and 3203) in the Holme Valley collection. See here
David Beilby
Interesting shots of the Roe rear ends David. I note that the lower rear panels from the axle back have been shortened to prevent them ‘grounding’ when negotiating junctions at the bottom of very steep hills. Bradford C T carried out this modification to the rear overhang of many of its MCW-bodied AEC Regent Vs for the same reason, with the rear chassis extensions being similarly visible. On the subject of rear ends, does anyone else wonder why some coachbuilders fitted (and some operators specified) such dated features as split upper deck emergency windows, on what were otherwise quite modern-looking front entrance buses? Even the ‘balloon roof’ Alexander bodies mounted on Atlantean and Fleetline chassis could be had with them, despite having very modern curved screens on both decks at the front!
Derby Corporation Transport 1949 Daimler CVD6 Brush H30/26R
I don’t know a great deal about Derby buses. This was taken on a short visit in August 1967. It’s a Daimler CVD6 with I think a Brush body. The olive green and cream livery was quite unusual and sombre and the provision of a polished rear bumper (just visible) seemed really old fashioned.
Brush were popular around their native Loughborough but “disappeared” after about 1952 when taken over by neighbour Willowbrook. They continued with their railway (locomotive) work and I believe they still exist (but not necessarily by the same name). Derby and Nottingham were both big Brush customers but their biggest was possibly BET.
David Oldfield
This bus is identical to four vehicles purchased second hand by Samuel Ledgard and new to Exeter Corporation – these, too, had the useful but “dated” offside rear bumpers. Ledgard also bought the entire batch of ten similar buses withdrawn indecently early by Leeds City Transport. An immediate furore occurred in the Council Chamber and angry questions were asked as to why they had been sold and yet were in widespread use on busy services in and around Leeds – and just to rub salt in the wound they were to be seen daily passing their former home depot at Headingley!! At once a ban was placed on the sale of any further LCT vehicles for use within the City. The Brush bodies were beautifully built and were very heavy, but this posed no problems for the superb smooth and powerful Daimler engines.
Chris Youhill
Not sure they were taken over by Willowbrook David, more that they chose to leave the bus business, and sold their designs to neighbours Willowbrook. I live in Loughborough, and this is what local enthusiasts tell me, as well as the many retired folk who live here and worked at “The Brush”. Brush had a major national share of the bus body business, and were by no means a regional player though. Brush do still exist in the town, much reduced, but more involved with transformer work and the like. At one time, they were the second biggest builder of tramcars in the UK. (Dick, Kerr being No1 with the ERTCW works at Preston). The Derby style, also used by Exeter, Leeds Bradford et al is a composite development of the wartime design, whereas the post war metal bodies were much more rounded and stylish as seen on the Leicester Mk 111s.
John Whitaker
31/01/11
I’m very pleased to see this posted as I’ve been considering recently, the fact that Brush seemed to have several styles in production at the same time. There was the type shown, which as John says was a progression of the utility design, then the type supplied to Maidstone Corporation and Yorkshire Woollen which had metal window pans with more rounded corners. In addition, the Leicester Regent III’s (and also six for Ebor of Mansfield) again referred to by John, were a completely different design. I’ve also wondered about their durability, as some were disposed of after relatively short lives, such as the Leeds examples which Chris refers to and the Bradford ones (although both had second lives with Ledgard and Green Bus) Nottingham only kept their Daimlers for nine years but the trolleybuses were built like tanks and would have lasted forever! Derby got over twenty years out of the batch shown, and I note Chris’s comment about them being beautifully built, so is there any truth in the suggestion that some operators had problems with Daimlers cooling system? Derby had three batches of Daimlers, the ACH’s, the BCH’s (8ft wide) and the CRC’s of 1952 which were apparently finished by Willowbrook and had curved fronts, whilst the Crossleys and Fodens of the same year had the flat front as shown. Luckily a Daimler and a Crossley are still with us, if only a Foden could have made a trio!
Chris Barker
31/01/11
I stand to be corrected, but wasn’t this batch the first of the 8 foot wide version? The Leeds, Exeter, Bradford, SHMD, Nottingham and earlier Derby ones were 7 foot 6 wide – Derby No.27 (ACH627) is preserved. Derby had quite a large fleet of the 8 foot CVD6s with Brush bodywork. The obvious difference inside was that the light fittings were a polished flat circular plate, instead of the chromium plated “volcano” on the earlier vehicles. I have seen a comment in connection with SHMD that the “Brush bodies were rubbish”. However, to me they always exuded charm. It is true that the Nottingham ones had a relatively short life, but then, Daimlers were little more than a footnote in a fleet that was massively dominated by AECs. By the way, for anyone straining to read it, the blind reads “Priory Estate via Sussex Circus”. I never understood why they insisted on blanking off half the window and having such ridiculously small lettering!
Stephen Ford
31/01/11
Although not using a Brush design one of the biggest customers for Loughborough built bodywork was Midland Red who bought both pre and post war Brush bodywork The Falcon works of Brush were also responsible for many first generation diesel locos for British Rail most notably the class 47 also known in some circles as the Brush type 4
Chris Hough
31/01/11 – 15:00
Chris B mentions that it was said in certain quarters that the Daimler cooling system could give problems. I don’t know about this from the operators’ points of view, but I can say for certain that those splendid engines did run very hot all the time, Winter included, and “boiling” was not unknown. One unusual feature was that the exhaust manifold was on the inner (driver’s) side of the engine, which ensured a scorched left leg in Summer and welcome warmth in the colder times. The practice at Samuel Ledgard was to fit all second hand buses with those excellent “KL” underseat heaters – two downstairs and one under the front seat “up aloft.” They certainly had the method off to perfection because all worked extremely effectively. I can relate without exaggeration that one Daimler in particular, former Exeter JFJ 55, was so hot in even the worst of weather that passengers were known on occasion to beg for the heaters to be turned OFF !!
Chris Youhill
31/01/11 – 20:16
Hence (presumably) the practice of driving them with the side access panel open & leaning on the mudguard: ah the smell of hot diesel… you just don’t get it today.
Joe
01/02/11 – 05:30
Indeed, I can just remember the Derby Daimlers operating with the bonnet side open, it was always a joy to see them running like that! On the subject of Brush bodies, I had forgotten to mention the Ribble PD1’s and PD2’s which were yet another style, so when John W states that Brush sold their designs to Willowbrook when they left the bus business, it seems there were plenty of them!
Chris Barker
01/02/11 – 05:33
I have it on good authority that Birmingham’s Daimler engines were certainly plagued with overheating problems. Elsewhere smoking is the main problem I’ve heard of. On the subject of Brush bodies it should not be forgotten that there were also 50 on Daimler CVG5 chassis for Manchester. According to “The Manchester Bus” by Eyre & Heaps these caused the company a major headache because they had not realised they had to be built to the Corporation’s own curvy design, but in the end they were among the finest bodies Brush ever built. However, I first encountered the Brush name not on any of the products mentioned in these comments, but on an electric milk float!
Peter Williamson
02/02/11 – 06:18
Chris Y mentions about the exhaust manifold being on the driver’s side, and the smell of burning flesh from the driver in Summer! London Transport’s D’s were nearly all CWA6’s, but they did take about 10 CWD6’s to aid Daimler’s development of it. The non-standard engine, the exhaust heating and access problem and the fact the the timing chains were at the back of the engine, ensured that, in 1950, they were re-engined with surplus AEC engines. However, I well recall one CWD6 bearing a chalk comment in the driving cab “Dxxx, the fastest D of them all”!. Incidentally, Chris Y talks about the ‘Sutton’ Daimler CWA’s going to Samuuel Ledgard, and I also thought there were no exceptions. However, I’ve found that SL took just one Merton one. It was Brush-bodied D126 (GYL 291), with them from 8/56 to 6/60. Does it ring a bell, Chris? (No pun intended!).
Chris Hebbron
02/02/11 – 10:04
I didn’t make things quite clear originally Chris and I actually meant that the twenty two 1946 Park Royal “HGF”s were all from Sutton Depot. I remember GYL 291 very well indeed and there is a super picture of it in “London’s Utility Buses” (page 127) by Ken Blacker. By coincidence it is passing Streatham Common within yards of the top of Leigham Court Road where my relations were and so its possible I may have ridden on it there as a youngster. Pictures of some of the twenty two “HGF”s also appear in the same splendid book. Ledgard also had just one more London utility Daimler – Duple bodied D178 (HGF 805). There is no doubt at all that these vehicles literally saved the Firm from going under due to death duties after Samuel Ledgard died in April 1952. Only those of us actually “on site” can appreciate the heroic heavy work that they did. Despite being second (or more) hand their performance and reliability were a credit to the maintenance in London and here in the West Riding of Yorkshire. Some of the schedules involved heavy loadings, tight timetables, hilly terrain and daily mileages in excess of two hundred and yet failures were virtually unheard of. “Lost mileage” was an obscene term at Ledgard’s, and any rare occurrence resulted in a thorough enquiry and, if necessary, the rolling of a guilty head or two !!
Chris Youhill
02/02/11 – 10:04
GYL 291 came to Sammy via Bee Line did it not Chris. So sayeth “Beer and Blue Buses”, one of the best bus books I ever bought!
John Whitaker
02/02/11 – 20:53
GYL 291 certainly did arrive with Ledgard thus John. “Beer and Blue Buses” is indeed a splendid volume – marred only by the picture of a certain young conductor on the front cover – yours truly. I willingly helped my friend Don considerably with certain aspects of the book, notably operational issues and photo captions, and just a few of my own early pictures and my route map are included.
Chris Youhill
02/02/11 – 21:13
Thx, John, for clarifying its second owner, who obviously looked after it well. Chris Y – bearing in mind the fragile nature of the bodies (and LT gave up overhauling them part-way through) did Ledgard’s not have body problems with them?
Chris Hebbron
03/02/11 – 10:40
Chris H – As GYL 291 was always at the Armley Head Depot and was our only Brush utility I can’t comment on it individually but I’m not aware of it being troublesome. As far as the utilities bought new by Ledgard are concerned the Roe and Duple bodies caused remarkably little trouble through out their existence. The same can’t be said for the two Pickering bodies on the Guys which fell into awful dilapidation long before they were replaced at eight years old !! Also, in contrast to the very satisfactory mechanical performance and reliability of the “Sutton HGFs”, it has to be acknowledged that many of their Park Royal “relaxed utility” bodies needed a fair amount of rectification from time to time – this treatment though was invariably successful though and ensured further front line service. One exception was the very sad HGF 940 (D 263) of Otley Depot which was in such awful condition bodywise that, after only one recertification, it was the first of the twenty two to be withdrawn, and prematurely at that. The body of HGF 948 (D 271) was transferred on acquisition to one of Sammy’s own CWA6s, JUB 649 and made a very fine vehicle which was a pleasure to work on. The chassis of HGF 948 then received the rebuilt coach body from a 1935 Maudslay – Sammy’s were never afraid to tackle enterprising engineering exercises, but this strange scheme had everyone baffled and remains an enigma to this day !!
Chris Youhill
03/02/11 – 17:59
Re. Chris`s comments on HGF 948. This was an amazing exercise which no enthusiast has ever really understood. How much service did the resultant coach actually enjoy, as I never saw it in service. It is the sort of exercise which is more appropriate to the lifetime of Mr Ledgard, and not to the regime of the “executors” Ledgards just has to be the finest independent for enthusiasts to get excited about, and the book “Beer and Blue Buses” brings it all back to mind. Well worth the money, although a price rise is to be expected due to the sartorial elegance of a certain person on the front cover! Must be worth another fiver Chris!
John Whitaker
03/02/11 – 20:14
Is this book still available? If so how would I obtain a copy?
Chris Barker
04/02/11 – 06:50
John, regarding HGF 948 I’m happy to say that, despite its strange creation, it was extremely busy on all classes of work throughout its time with Ledgard. Arriving in April 1954 it ran until withdrawal after an accident in January 1960 and was sold in the April. Your kind remarks are greatly appreciated but I’m happy to say that there will be no increase in the price of the book as a result of my appearance on the cover – in fact many wags have been heard to loudly declare that a drastic reduction is called for !! Chris B, the book is still available in many West Yorkshire book shops and, I believe, by mail order from the Samuel Ledgard Society or from the author, Don. Postage is expensive on account of the great weight of the book and so collection is preferable naturally. If you care ask Peter for my address and E Mail me, indicating your locality, I’ll see what arrangements can be made should you decide you’d like one.
Chris Youhill
05/02/11 – 05:35
Chris Y – Thank you for the detailed and interesting reply. I must say that I have warmed to SL following your various enthusiastic comments; a company, like Provincial, not afraid of ploughing its own furrow in a thoroughly professional way, especially through the hard times. Now, how about a photo of that Maudslay/Daimler CWA6 conversion!
Chris Hebbron
05/02/11 – 05:45
Well, many thanks Chris for that, I do visit Leeds from time to time, so if there’s anywhere there which may have it, I’d be happy to seek it out on a future visit
Chris Barker
05/02/11 – 09:26
Thanks for the reference to “Beer and Blue Buses”, John and Chris. I plan to go to the Dewsbury Bus Museum Open Day on March 13th. I wonder whether a stallholder there will have a few copies? Hope so!
Ian Thompson
27/02/11 – 20:42
I think what stands out on this body is the hallmarks it still bears with Brush’s austerity style, and these bodies were produced in 1949 and still identical to the style that Derby took in 1946 (22-27)! It doesn’t detract that they look handsome in Derby’s tasteful colour scheme.
